 However, when lured into a low-speed turning contest with conventional subsonic opponents (as Pakistani pilots were with Indian Mystères in 1965), the outcome of dogfights was always in doubt.The F-104's large turn radius was due to the high speeds required for maneuvering, and its high-alpha stalling and pitch-up behavior required attentiveness from its pilot.In reference to the F-104's low-speed turn performance, a humorous colloquialism was coined by a pilot in the skies over Edwards Air Force Base