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Coming up next on Passion Strike.
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I think the question that we need to ask ourselves is at the foundation, it s do I feel safe?
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There is absolutely not a shred of doubt in the scientific evidence that the brain needs a certain degree of safety to feel free, to feel connected, to feel well.
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So I think you start and say, does my life feel good to me?
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Really basic.
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Well, in some ways, yes.
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In some ways, no.
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OK, what are those ways?
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Well, I feel lonely.
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I think it begins, first of all, with an awareness.
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And one of the things about trauma and the biology is when we feel really bad, the nervous system is so intelligent.
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It says, OK, let s not feel so bad.
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Let s avoid.
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So let s avoid either through alcohol.
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Let s avoid through overworking.
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Let s avoid through focusing on other people s problems so we don t have to look at our own.
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Let s avoid.
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Welcome to Passion Struck.
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Hi, I m your host, John R. Miles, and on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world s most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you.
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Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself.
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If you re new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays.
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We have long form interviews the rest of the week with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes.
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Now let s go out there and become passion struck.
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Hello everyone.
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And welcome back to episode 422 of passion struck consistently ranked as the number one alternative health podcast.
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A heartfelt thank you to each and every one of you who return to the show every week, eager to listen, learn, and discover new ways to live better, be better, and make a meaningful impact in the world.
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If you re not aware, throughout 2024, we are conducting a weekly challenge to help inspire you to become passion-struck.
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We release a new challenge every week in our newsletter, which goes out to over 30,000 people in our community.
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Just go to passionstruck.com to sign up.
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If you re new to the show, thank you so much for being here.
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Or you simply want to introduce this to a friend or a family member, and we so appreciate it when you do that.
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We have episode starter packs, which are collections of our fans  favorite episodes that we organize into convenient topics that give any new listener a great way to get acclimated to everything we do here on the show.
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Either go to Spotify or passionstruck.com slash starter packs to get started.
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In case you missed it, earlier this week, I had a fantastic interview with Cass Sunstein, the nation s most cited legal scholar, a prolific author, Harvard law professor, who s renowned for his co-authorship of the groundbreaking book Nudge, alongside Nobel Prize winning economist Richard Thaler.
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We explore his new masterpiece, Look Again, the power of noticing what was always there, which offers an enlightening journey into the concept of habituation, which is our psychological tendency to get used to our surroundings and how it shapes our thoughts, actions, and ultimately our lives.
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And if you liked that previous episode with Cass or today s, we would so appreciate you giving it a five-star rating and review.
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They go such a long way in strengthening the PassionStruck community, where we can help more people to create an intentional life.
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And I know we and our guests love to hear your feedback.
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Today s episode ventures into the very essence of what fuels us, our brain s extraordinary energy.
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Imagine tapping into a power source within that propels you to unprecedented success, deeper fulfillment, and more meaningful connections in every facet of life.
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It s all about the neuroelectrical energy sparking through our brain, the powerful currents that sculpt your identity, ambitions, and interactions.
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Forget the notion that your emotional vigor is at the mercy of the world around you.
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Today, we re tearing that myth down with insights from our distinguished guest,
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Neuropsychologist, Dr. Julia DeGangi.
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With her groundbreaking eight codes, Dr. DeGangi is here to show us how to seize control of this vibrant energy, transforming it into a wellspring of empowerment, resilience, and connection.
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Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life.
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Now, let that journey begin.
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I am absolutely honored and thrilled to have Dr. Julia DeGangi on PassionStruck.
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Welcome, Julia.
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I m so glad to be here.
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Thank you for having me.
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So something you probably don t know about me is I m a combat veteran, and I understand that you did your residency at the VA, something I ve become very familiar with.
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Can you tell me what stood out for you from that experience of seeing so many veterans who ve experienced trauma and adversity?
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That s a really big question.
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So yeah, I ve worked with trauma and adversity and stress and anxiety in so many capacities.
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I think my experience at the VA, so I ve done some work at the VA out in Boston.
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I ve done some work at the VA out in Chicago.
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So lots of work with combat veterans has been so profound.
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The way I sort of want to answer this is.
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When we are in extreme stress in our life, when we feel like we ve experienced really deep loss or we re traumatized, I think there s always this sense of confusion and hopelessness.
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Like our lives are in such disarray, we don t know how to put it back together.
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And I think two things really have stuck with me.
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I think it s the body of the work that I do is that, number one, healing is absolutely possible.
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I don t say this as kind of pie in the sky.
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I don t say this is philosophical.
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I say this as a neuropsychologist who s published extensively in the scientific literature and has walked with people as they ve transformed their lives in ways that if they told you, I m just gonna give up on my life,
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you wouldn t even blame them.
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So I ve watched people make profound transformation.
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And the second thing, and this is really why I wrote Energy Rising, is to get to healing, because of how the brain works, we almost always have to do the counterintuitive.
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So healing is possible, but it seems so far out of reach a lot of times because the very thing we need to do often doesn t occur to us or seems like the exact opposite of what we should do.
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And I m happy to give some stories to really clarify this, if that s helpful.
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Yeah.
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Well, why don t we do that?
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Sure.
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So I have treated a lot of PTSD, both in civilians and I have treated PTSD in combat veterans, as you mentioned.
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Well, I ll actually tell a story, okay?
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I ll call this guy Bill, and I tell the story in Energy Rising as well.
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So Bill comes to see me, and this is a very important piece of the story.
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He s been back from his deployment for many years, okay?
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So I say, well, what s been going on?
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And he basically says, well, I ve been avoiding my life.
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I ve been avoiding restaurants and public spaces.
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I avoid movie theaters.
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Trauma happened in the context of a convoy, so I don t drive.
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I avoid people.
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One of the symptoms of PTSD is irritability and frustration and irritability and anger.
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So I avoid people.
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He had gotten fired from a couple of jobs.
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And most painfully, he was pretty estranged from his family.
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Little kids are very hard on even healthy nervous system, the noises they make, the constant demands.
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So there was a lot of sort of issues in the family.
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And so his wife and his kids had left.
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He comes to me many years later and says, so I ve tried all of this avoidance to try to get myself to calm down.
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The driving felt scary.
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The people felt frustrating.
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So if I could just keep avoiding them, I thought I could solve my problem, but it s not working at all.
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Oddly, the exact opposite, it seems to be happening.
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The more I avoid the worse I feel.
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So part of the reason I m so willing to do conversations like these, I feel very honored to be a guest on your show is because
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I am on fire for educating people about how the brain works and how we achieved resilience, whether we re talking about massive trauma or we re talking about ordinary stress in our life.
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And that s a very important piece that I want people to get when I tell this story is this is going to be an extreme story.
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But if it works at the most extreme forms of human suffering, of course, there s pieces for us to take away, regardless of where we are in our journey.
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So I say to him, first of all, I want to normalize all the avoidance.
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I think that s a very, the brain s trying to be very intelligent.
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Don t touch that.
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Don t look at that.
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Don t go there.
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Let s protect you.
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Okay.
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So it s very normal.
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Second, there s no shame in this, okay?
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It s just the neurobiology is trying to move to protect you.
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But the third thing is this, and this is where the counterintuitive comes in.
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All that stuff you ve been doing is not working.
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And so we now need to do the opposite.
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So we re not just gonna try to avoid people, places, and things.
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We re actually gonna talk specifically about your trauma.
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We re gonna talk about it in detail, and we re gonna talk about it over and over.
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And he s like, I just told you I m trying to do the opposite of this.
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Fortunately, and this is where I think scientific evidence can be so healing, there s a massive amount of scientific evidence that supports the treatment that I m describing.
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And I say, obviously the decision is yours.
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We can do this together.
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So he s very brave and says, I m going to give it a shot.
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So we re not processing kind of trauma amorphously.
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We re actually speaking about one very specific instance and we re going over it and over it.
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Now, remember this man has been back for many years.
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About week 12, he comes into my office and we had recorded him talking about the trauma.
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He d gone home and listened to it.
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He holds his phone up in front of my face and says, I can t listen to this thing one more time.
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So I m like, sit down, tell me what s going on.
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And he says, doc, every time I listened to this recording, I fall asleep.
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It is dull as shit.
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So every time I tell that story, it s so meaningful to me.
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And I ve done this with many, many people at this point in time, because the thing that had previously traumatized him so much, he had shrunk his entire life to try to avoid the feelings in his own nervous system.
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is now so inoculated, it s so diffused, the energy is gone, that it s so boring, it lulls him to sleep.
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If transformation can happen at that level, transformation can happen to us all.
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But the thing is, number one, I have to be committed to my healing.
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Okay, I think a lot of us are.
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But the other piece that a lot of us miss is because the brain is a pattern detector, it tends to do the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again, even though you have tons of evidence, it s not working.
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And so a lot of times we have to do the counterintuitive.
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First thing I m going to say is prolonged exposure therapy really sucks.
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It was one of the hardest things I ve ever had to do.
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And I think what s even harder is when you re asked to pick one trauma experience.
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I was always asked pick the most traumatic experience.
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I m like, how am I supposed to do that?
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Because I have had sexual trauma.
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I ve had physical assault trauma.
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I ve had.
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multiple combat trauma and like how do you pick one was so difficult for me.
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But I was doing what this gentleman you described was doing.
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I had gotten out and was on the surface what someone would see as a normal functioning human.
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And in fact, I was an extremely high achiever, youngest vice president in a Fortune 50 company, youngest person to make partner in a big four consulting firm, CIO of a Fortune 50 company before I was 40.
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But inside, I was disguising and putting a mask on all the pain I truly was, who I really were.
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And I was showing up as someone completely different to everyone around me.
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And I remember eventually going through a neuropsych review and I came out of it expecting these profound
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conclusions because I was having memory issues.
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I d forget where I put my keys.
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I d forget what I would say to my kids.
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I d forget things at work.
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It had gotten really bad.
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I felt emotionally numb, all this stuff.
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And at the end of it, she goes, you just have severe depression.
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And I have to tell you, I was so pissed off coming out of that, that it really launched me into a period of, first I went through denial, but then I went through really some, my own personal soul searching.
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And this was on the outside and it eventually led me to the VA.
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Because I said, if I m not getting the help I need out there, then I got to just put myself in the epicenter and get it from people who understand what veterans have gone through.
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And so by doing that, and then going through cognitive behavioral therapy, prolonged exposure therapy, MDR, you name it.
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I mean, it took a long time, but I wouldn t be here talking to you today and talking about the things that I went through had it not been for that.
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And a big reason that I do this show is because I m trying to help people not do the foolish things I did, which was wait so long to take action because my life could have been so much better.
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And I would have been in a better place in my relationships, my mental health, my physical health, my relationship, health, spiritual health, everything.
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So I just wanted to bring that all up.
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Well, I think what you re saying and the fact that you re willing to model yourself like this is so profound.
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I have so many things to say in response to what you said.
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When I did my internship at the VA, so you do an internship before you get your PhD in psychology.
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One of the things that I really realized is because exactly what you said is true.
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So one of the things we know about trauma is most people actually don t experience, and this is a scientific finding, don t just experience a trauma.
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They experience this trauma and that trauma and that trauma.
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And then this becomes all the more complex when we had childhood trauma.
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So you re thinking about the brain, the entire infrastructure of the brain is just being built at an astounding rate.
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So what does that mean then if I had lots of childhood trauma and the very people who I m supposed to be able to trust to take care of me are dangerous?
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So you re absolutely right.
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It s like, we can talk about trauma like it s this kind of neat thing, but it almost never is.
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But what I do find is that, and this is again, another very counterintuitive idea, but I think when people get it, it s so healing, okay?
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And these are the reasons that I wrote Energy Rising.
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We tend to pay a lot of attention to our situations.
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So the thing that you said to me on Tuesday, the thing that happened to me in 1987, the thing she did the other day, the thing they said on social media, it s like situation after situation after situation.
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But the problem with that is that no matter how much you focus on your situations, it s never going to get resolved until you focus on the very energy that s giving rise to your situation.
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And by the way, when I say energy, I m not talking metaphorically or metaphysically.
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Emotions are quite literally a neurologic energy.
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I am a neuropsychologist, extensively published in the neuroscientific literature.
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So these are these neural zing, zing, zing, zap, zap, zaps that create sensation in our body that then drive behavior.
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So we think, okay, if I could fix the situation, I could fix the feeling.
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And also, by the way, there would be no situation until I had a feeling.
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In other words, if you said something and I had no emotion, I wasn t offended by it, or I didn t think it was funny, it would just zoom past me.
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My brain would literally not encode it, okay?
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So I think a lot of times people are like, oh my God, there s been so many complex situations in my life.
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I don t know what to do about it.
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But actually when we make it simpler, it gets a lot clearer.
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And I believe that clarity is the foundation of all power.
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So when I start to say across all these situations, I m really only feeling two or three things.
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So imagine the bad situations in my life.
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I m feeling anxious about it, and I m feeling sad.
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I m feeling angry about it, and I m feeling sad.
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I m feeling embarrassed about it, and I m feeling anxious about it.
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You could have an infinite number of situations, but they re all kind of mapping on to these really core emotional experiences.
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And in Energy Rising, I distill the emotional experiences down so simply to two things, emotional pain and emotional power.
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By emotional pain, any feeling, I don t care if you call it rage, or irritation, or frustration, or inadequacy, or shame, or embarrassment, or awkwardness, or upset, any negative feeling in your body is emotional pain.
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And I totally understand that this exists on a spectrum, okay?
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There s mild irritation all the way up to rage.
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And then on the other side of that, there is emotional power, confidence, resilience,
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Connection, self-assuredness, in other words, my inherent sense of my own goodness.
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So do you see how already if I start to think, wait a second, I don t have to necessarily figure out how to fix X, Y, Z, a million numbers long.
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I could just figure out how to work with my nervous system and solve for this one feeling that would invariably transfer across situations.
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The whole premise of energy rising is really this, the horrible feelings that we all feel in our body, despair, disappointment, fear, anxiety.
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They are not here to torment us.
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They are actually calling us into our next level of power.
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When I know what to do about my feelings of inadequacy, I m truly unstoppable.
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When I diffuse the power of shame over my life, I am truly unstoppable.
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A lot of us are coming to it backwards.
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We re not being counterintuitive enough.
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In other words, we try to say like, to your point, if I become the youngest partner in the firm, if I become the CIO, if I make the most money, in other words, if I do enough out there, I ll save myself from these feelings in here.
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This is not how the nervous system works.
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Some days it tickles me and some days it drives me crazy.
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We pay more attention to the intelligent operation of chat GPT in our cell phone than we pay to the intelligent operation of the most glorious machinery on the planet, which is our own brain and nervous system.
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but you gotta learn, just like you wouldn t try to drive your car and make it cut your lawn or use a blender to vacuum your family room.
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We re trying to live our lives asking the brain to do things that the brain just isn t designed to do.
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It s not how you get to where you re trying to go.
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And so when you realize this, there s a sense of clarity.
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There s a sense of, oh my God, I can do this.
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In other words, it s manageable.
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The whole thing about stress and trauma, and people miss this a lot, I would argue that the core feature of it is overwhelming confusion.
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These people were, I can t understand how these people could do this to me.
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I don t understand how God did this.
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I don t, there s always, it s not traumatic if it makes sense, okay?
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Stress is also always about confusion.
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If I knew how to get X, Y, and Z done before five o clock tomorrow night,
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but it s the sense of I m overwhelmed.
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The world is demanding more for me than I have to give and I don t know how to solve that problem.
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So we have to, when we talk about recovery and resilience, we don t talk enough about the brain s relationship with confusion.
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And I think another term people use all the time is uncertainty.
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These are neurologically synonyms.
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There s no difference.
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And when I hear what you re talking about, and I think about what I went through, the thing that always comes top of mind to me is worthiness.
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I didn t feel worthy of love.
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I didn t feel worthy of affection.
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I didn t feel worthy of success.
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Even the stuck points that had.
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accumulated and the mental barriers I had put up resulted in self-doubt.
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And as you said, shame and imposter syndrome and so many other things.
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And it wasn t until I started to work through those and experience self-love that I was able to start letting other people in and start releasing the pain.
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Before we got on, I mentioned you talked to a friend of mine, Dr. Stephanie, and in that interview, I heard you talk about this in terms of the concept of pain and power as two sides of an energetic coin, I think you said.
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Can you elaborate on how this relates to the transformation of pain rather than its eradication?
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So first of all, I thought it was really powerful how you said it was only when you came to know your own worthiness that you could really tolerate other people seeing you as worthy.
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So we have to first have the emotional capacity in our own nervous systems
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People cannot give other people experiences inside of their nervous system.
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This is actually a great myth that causes so much pain and dysfunction in relationships, okay?
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So when I say every single thing you want in this lifetime is on the other side of the feelings you keep refusing to feel, I think this is the truth of our neurobiology.
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So for example, let s go back to the story about the veteran.
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The feeling, he was trying to run from the feelings.
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And again, this is very natural.
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The brain understands pain.
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If you kind of think of the brain as this very complex computer machine, it has all this coding in it.
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The brain kind of is like pain is on some level a zero one at this very reflexive and primitive level.
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Does it hurt?
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Yes.
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Okay.
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Avoid it.
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It s very simple.
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If that worked, we should do it all the time.
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For example, if I put my hand on a hot stove, I m immediately going to yank it back.
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Great.
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So freaking adaptive.
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The problem is we try to run that same coding in our relational lives.
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For example, you said to me something that I didn t like one time.
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I m never going to talk to you again.
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I tried to sell something and nobody bought it in the first five minutes.
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And that was, I felt embarrassment in my buy.
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I m never doing it again.
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I m shuttering the business.
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We have arguments with people and we cut them out of our lives forever.
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So what my point here is like, cause we don t know how to intelligently hold sensation in our nervous system because we don t get a lot of cultural education around it.
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We just try to pretend like it s the hand on the hot stove and avoid, avoid, but the problem is, and there are a couple of key points, energy rising.
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This is one of them is that if we could perfectly avoid pain, we should do this.
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We should, I am at my core a pragmatist, but when I look around and I ve done a lot of international work, I ve been doing this work depending on how you want to look at it for 20 years or 40 years.
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I come from a family with a fair bit of trauma.
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My father s a psychologist.
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So I really kind of grew up on psychology and emotional intelligence and trauma.
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I ve never met a single person who said life didn t hurt, not even close.
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So trying to construct a life where I say there is no pain is like you telling me, hey, Julia, I m looking to buy a house in the zip code where there is no gravity.
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I just need this one house to not have any gravity.
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It s like, that sounds like it would take a tremendous amount of effort and be totally fruitless.
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So when we start to realize pain is inalienable aspect of what it means to be human, just like aging is, just like gravity is, just like weather is, just like time is, like it just is.
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I start to say, okay, let me really think in an emotionally intelligent way and all emotional into there s tons of information out there about emotional intelligence, let me simplify it all it means is, am I thinking intelligently about emotion.
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So I say in a world that promises pain.
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What is the pain that empowers me the most?
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And then let me choose that in honor of my evolution, in honor of my healing, in honor of my expansion.
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So let s go back to the veteran.
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So he was saying, I am going to try to avoid all this pain, but in the avoidance of the pain, he didn t save himself from pain.
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That s a really important piece.
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He was in agony, and I think you re saying that you have experiences that mirror this.
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So if I say, okay, listen, this is, and I think it sounds like you intimately know, these treatments, I think anytime we go to therapy to work on the parts of our life that hurts, when we touch the parts of our life that hurts, they hurt, okay?
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There s no, it s not like it s magic.
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When I start to say, okay, I m gonna face my demons, I m gonna face some of the things I did wrong, I m gonna face the way people hurt me,
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That is of course painful, but the result is healing.
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To be healed is to be powerful.
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When I talk about power, I m not talking about command and control.
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I dominate.
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I m talking about my own experience of my own worthiness and my ability to then therefore experience life fully.
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If I want more self-confidence, people say emotions are so confusing.
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They re not actually that confusing.
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They re quite mathematical.
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There s like a physics to emotion.
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If I want more self-confidence, I must come into a new relationship with the energy of doubt.
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That s gonna be a little bit painful, but in that pain, I become more powerful because I become more self-confident.
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Lots of people say they want peace, and then they try to externally control every single thing around them, which just makes them absolutely feel terrible.
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So if I want more peace, I have to come into a new relationship with the energy of uncertainty.
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As I start to habituate my system to the energy of uncertainty, that s gonna rattle me.
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When I master that, when my system habituates to that, I get more powerful.
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I want more connection with people.
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Well, then I have to be willing to say sometimes people are gonna reject me.
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We re all saying, can I have the relationship where I promise, promise, be for real Z, no one s ever going to hurt my feelings.
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This does not exist.
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And so then we protect ourselves from not getting hurt.
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But in the process of that, we seal ourselves off from relationships and are perpetually hurt.
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We re unfulfilled, we re lonely, we re unconnected.
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So when we really start to understand how we can take emotional pain and convert it to emotional power, our lives
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truly transform.
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We settled down.
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We were able to trust the intelligence of life, trust the intelligence of ourselves, and trust the intelligence of others.
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Julie, I want to get on and back to your book, but I think before we do that, there s an important question I want to ask you.
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So we ve just discussed some pretty heavy stuff and there might be someone who s listening here who s stuck in this horror show that I found myself in and they re doing what I did, avoiding everything, avoided even going back to the Naval Academy because of the trauma.
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avoided going to the VFW or American Legion, avoided going to crowded spaces, avoided going to loud spaces.
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It s not the way you want to live your life.
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How, for a listener, can they better understand how trauma is showing up for them today in their everyday thought patterns and interactions so they can recognize it?
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So I think the question that we need to ask ourselves is at the foundation, it s, do I feel safe?
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There is absolutely not a shred of doubt in the scientific evidence that the brain needs safety, a certain degree of safety to feel free, to feel connected, to feel well.
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So I think you start and say, does my life feel good to me?
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Really basic.
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Well, in some ways, yes.
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In some ways, no.
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Okay.
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What are those ways?
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Well, I feel lonely.
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So I think it begins, first of all, with an awareness.
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And one of the things about trauma and the biology is when we feel really bad, the nervous system is so intelligent.
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It says, okay, let s not feel so bad, let s avoid.
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So let s avoid either through alcohol, let s avoid through overworking, let s avoid through focusing on other people s problems so we don t have to look at our own, let s avoid.
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So you ve got to, numbness is actually an adaptation to pain, right?
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Like if I m in agony, wouldn t it be better if my skin went numb?
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Okay.
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So they re like, you got to think about this as an evolution.
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First of all, let me get a sense of how I m feeling.
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Okay.
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I don t know how I m feeling.
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No problem.
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Even normalizing that.
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Great.
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So let me get some help around.
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There s, I think, tremendous resources all the way up to one-on-one professional support.
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I mean, there s an enormous continuum of care.
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And I think that s, you know, people talk about all the perils of social media,
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But I think this is one of the beautiful things about it.
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It s like, there are really good groups online, there s podcasts like yours, there s brilliant books, okay?
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And then it s, do I feel like I have the requisite safety and support to start feeling feelings that I ve historically told myself I can t feel?
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This really is the most, I think, reductionistic way to say this.
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And I think a lot of times people will say, I can t feel those feelings because I m gonna die.
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The feelings are going to be so bad that I m going to die.
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And we all, on some level, understand this.
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Bad feelings are called bad feelings because they feel bad.
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But I think you re living evidence of like, you have got to get this stuff out of the nervous system.
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I want to explain why I call it energy rising, because I think this answers your question.
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So the biology is designed to get rid of trash, to get rid of waste.
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If I eat food, I pass it.
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If I take an oxygen, I emit carbon dioxide as waste.
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Every 27 days, my skin cells just go away.
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If there s a foreign invader in my immune system, gets it out of the body.
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In my experience, there s something singular about emotional waste.
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We have a feeling that we don t like inside of our own body, shame, fear, inadequacy.
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And what happens is the feeling starts to rise, this energetic sensation rises through the body.
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And instead of just letting it pass,
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We shove it down.
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We shove it down.
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We shove it down.
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We shove it down through our avoidance.
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We shove it down through our overachievement.
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We shove it down through our numbing.
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We shove it down through our distraction.
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And so what then happens is like a bad feeling, shove it down, a bad feeling, shove it down, a bad feeling, shove it down, a bad feeling.
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You do that five or 10 times.
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You do that a hundred times.
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You do that a thousand times.
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No problem.
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The biology is resilient.
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But when you do that for a lifetime, you become emotionally constipated.
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You are filled, you are clogged with emotional junk.
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And so then somebody cuts you off at a stop sign or somebody gets your drink order wrong at Starbucks and you re pissed off seven ways till Sunday.
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When we want to respond, we have the ability to respond, the responsibility, the ability to respond intelligently to our lives, but we got to clean up the machinery.
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So I think when we understand that there s a lot of toxic stuff inside and in the removal of the toxic stuff, that s deep work.
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But when I go back to this idea of picking a more powerful pain, it s do I really have an option to not process my stuff?
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Let me think about that.
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If I didn t process my stuff, what would that mean for me?
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If I don t process my stuff, what does my future look like?
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Also, I don t think all things need to be processed.
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I think this is what s beautiful about individual empowerment is you get to say, you know what, this thing has been hanging around for 20 years.
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The likelihood of it dissipating like magic in 2024, probably not going to happen.
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What are the things I need to do?
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And I think the other piece is when people get
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good information, good care, good treatment.
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Again, I think the continuum of care matters wherever you are.
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Some people need more care than others, totally normal.
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But when you get the right help for the right problem, the transformation happens very quickly.
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The relief, the relief, I ll say it like that.
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So I m just going to add my personal thoughts on this.
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I remember I was a senior executive at Lowe s and I was killing it.
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I was told I was in the top quadrant of people who they thought someday could become the CEO.
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And I remember going to this meeting with a lady from porn fairy who was an organizational psychologist, and they had just done this evaluation on all of us who were in that highly promotable box.
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And she said.
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John, you have had this just blistering career of so many things that you ve achieved, but then she brought in Marshall Goldsmith.
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What got you here isn t going to get you where you want to go.
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I look back upon that and she was so damn right, but in ways that she probably didn t even realize, because I was arsoning the very things in life that I wanted because this pain kept me from being able to display emotional intelligence in a way that at that level I needed to.
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And it was really.
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Can you give an example?
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I m just curious to wrap my head around it a little bit more.
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So I would just say I put up all these walls around myself to protect myself from harm.
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And one of the things that I didn t want to expose was vulnerability.
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And I think if you want true connections with someone, especially as you re getting more senior in your career, or if you want a deep relationship.
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then you have to be vulnerable in communicating your emotions and your feelings to someone else.
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And I was blocking all that because I was worried that the pain of letting people in and seeing the true me would be too much.
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And so I just let it out.
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I just blocked it.
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And by blocking it, I prohibited all these good things to come about because I wasn t going as deep into relationship building as I should have in an authentic way, if that makes sense.
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It does.
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And she was saying that kind of wall to get you to your next level of leadership, it wasn t going to work anymore.
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Is that right?
3
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Well, she was saying that I had gotten this far based on intelligence, intellect, drive, hard work, resilience, and that would only get me so far.
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But in this next chapter, if I truly wanted to become a CEO, if I truly wanted to get in the C-level, yes, those things mattered.
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But what mattered more was the personal relationships and
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How you collaborated, how you interfaced, how people viewed you.
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And most importantly, how they trusted you.
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And if you re someone who s, who s not showing your authentic self, then how is anyone going to trust someone?
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So this is the interview as sometimes they do has gone completely different than I. Replan it to go.
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Um, but I m going to.
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But I m going to tie it back into your book.
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In your book, you have these eight different codes that you discuss.
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They re eight neurogenetic codes.
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And the first one is something I think that touches upon what we were just talking about, which is how do you expand your emotional power by focusing on emotions as a form of energy?
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So if you talk about that scenario with the veterans, some of the things that we ve been talking about with me, how can a listener harness their own emotional energy to better navigate challenges and difficult emotions?
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Yeah, so first of all, I love saying this, that one of the things I m really proud of about Energy Rising is there s tons of exercises, like practical, I think this is one of its strengths.
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So there s lots, but I ll give you one.
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So one of the things is when we think about getting stronger, we re never confused about this on the physical health side, and this is great news.
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So for example, if I wanna get stronger, I know that I have got to,
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walk if I m sitting all the time or if I walk a lot, then I got to run or let s go to the gym.
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Okay.
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So I go to the gym and I can only lift five pounds.
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And today I want to lift 10 pounds.
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Well, I am never like, I am confused about how to get stronger.
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So I go to the gym and when I try to lift more weight, my
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muscles quite literally shake.
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My physiology shakes, I sweat, my hands might tremble, my legs might quiver, like my body is shaking.
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So in Energy Rising, I give this example that I call hold your emotional shake.
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Now, one of the things is that no one is ever confused.
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I just sat on the couch for 10 hours eating hot Cheetos and binging Netflix.
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Why am I not stronger?
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People are like, I know precisely why I m not stronger, right?
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I might have not wanted to go and that might be, but I know how to get physically stronger.
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Well, the analog, because you re really asking me is how do we develop emotional power?
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Is we have to meet more emotional resistance, just like we have to meet more cardiovascular or muscular resistance to get physically stronger.
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But here s where, and the analog is so strong, okay?
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The body is the body and the habituation of muscles works a lot like the habituation of the brain.
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So I say, all right, I m gonna like, let s say public speaking.
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I want to express myself more, okay?
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That s kind of how I would get stronger.
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And I say, I m going to come on this podcast.
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So I booked the podcast.
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And then ahead of time, I m like, I don t, I don t, I don t, this isn t the anxiety starts to shake my system.
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I m like, I don t know.
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I might sound stupid.
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I might run out of things to talk about.
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So I m quite literally shaking.
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Now, until we have powerful conversations like you and I are having, a lot of times when we have those sensations in our body, until we understand how to interpret the cues that the computer s giving out to us, i.e.
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our brain, we say, oh my God, this is really dangerous abort mission.
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And so I cancel the interview.
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And then I have to compound that because I can t really trust myself.
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I say I m going to do things and I don t follow through.
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And you can just see the implosion.
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So I have to say, wait a second, if the way bodies get stronger is to meet the physical resistance, I can then meet my emotional shaking and say, this is actually great news.
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And here s the thing on the physical health side.
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A lot of us who do work out, whether it s, we go for walks or we run, or we know our muscles shake, it doesn t feel good.
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We don t love the sensation.
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of really working out, but even then, there s something satisfying about it.
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It s like, the reason I keep going to the gym is because like, when my muscles shake as much as it burns and hurts and blah, blah, blah, the shaking is the clearest evidence that I m getting stronger right before my own eyes.
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So if I can hold that intelligence and say, this is how biologies work, so let me go on this podcast and shake.
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Literally, not even metaphorically.
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My voice might shake a little bit.
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My hands are sweating.
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I might be trembling.
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No problem.
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To change the emotional system, just like changing the physical system, you need two things.
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The right combination of intensity and frequency.
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So I might say going on your podcast would be like, let s say like going to give a live standup comedy routine.
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That would be a 10.
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That would make me life face melt off.
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That would be way too stressful.
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Coming on your podcast would be like a seven.
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That is the right combination of intensity because 10 is too much.
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One, two, three is not enough.
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We re looking for the Goldilocks.
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Just if I could only lift five pounds in the gym, I m not going to go try to lift 75 and rip my arm off.
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I m also not going to try to lift four or six.
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So I really start to think what are the ways I speak up for myself?
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And what s really cool about this is because you re meeting sensation in your body, we re not talking about situation.
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I could say, well, like another way I could do this would be to do a Facebook live, like to get on Facebook or to start a blog.
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It doesn t even have to be like me verbal in real time.
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Maybe me starting a blog is like six.
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Maybe me.
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So there s all these ways, if I m saying, what are the ways that I can express myself more, if that s my goal, how would I make this hierarchy really easy?
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Tons of examples from my own life and calibrate things.
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What s a one, what s a five, what s an eight, what s a nine, what s a 10, and then do it.
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So I think that s very attainable.
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And I think too, understanding that the emotional system is gonna transform the way the physical system transforms.
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I think that s helpful for people too.
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Thank you for sharing that, Julian.
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I wanted to touch on one of the other codes and that s code two, building your power pattern.
4
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And I really like this aspect because I have my own book coming out and I talk about the mindset shifts that we need to make if we want to change the life that we re leading.
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And one of those mindset shifts is that we need to become a
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I call it a perspective harnesser.
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And what I m really talking about in this chapter is cognitive reframing or cognitive restructuring, because oftentimes we see things like adversity or trauma, but, and it could be, as we re going into holiday season, something like going over to a relative s house that brings out anxiety for you.
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But the way I have learned to
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think about these things is that trying times, whatever they are, and they re like a rubber band that you can expand and then move back.
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Can you talk about maybe building your power pattern through what I just brought up and how does someone implement a power pattern to reshape their mindset?
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Absolutely.
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So the idea of a power pattern is so vital because the brain is in fact a pattern detection machine.
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It s moving us in patterns.
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And to be direct with you, it s moving us really in emotional patterns.
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So a pattern detection machine would go apple, fill in the blank, what comes next?
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Well, apple.
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But the way the human system is moving through space and time is we re really moving based on these emotional patterns.
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So let me give you something.
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So I hope we all have patterns that are, some of us feel like whenever we go to a party, we re going to meet someone interesting.
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And so every time we go to a party, so I hope we have positive patterns, but I m going to talk about some of the more painful patterns.
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So we have a pattern that sounds like this and people should choose their own.
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I m just going to give a few examples.
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I can never get what I want.
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I can never get what I want.
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I can never get what I want.
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Now there s a new situation.
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I ve changed jobs.
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I ve changed relationships.
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I m about to build a business, whatever.
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And I promise the brain will recreate the pattern.
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This is why New Year s resolutions, change management and organization, changing relationships doesn t change how we feel because the thing that s making us feel how we feel is actually our feelings.
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So if we keep looking at situation to change feeling, it s not going to happen.
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SPEAKER_00
Okay.
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So I m still in a situation where I ve had this pattern where I can t get what I want.
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Things never work out for me.
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Things never work out for me.
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Things never work out for me, or here s one.
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People just don t understand me.
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People just don t understand me.
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People just don t understand me.
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Okay.
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So let s say I m someone who is, I want to be an entrepreneur.
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I work with a lot of entrepreneurs.
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I do a lot of leadership coaching in this space.
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These people are wildly creative.
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Well, the more creative we are oftentimes, people don t get it.
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That s in a way what it kind of means to be creative.
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Like if I say, here s a coffee cup, and then I just recreate the coffee cup, that s not really that creative.
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It s like, I just mimic the exact same thing.
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So a lot of times when we are creative, we get a lot of nos, because people are like, I don t really get that.
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I don t really get that.
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In my own experience, talking about emotion in this way, especially like I did a lot of international humanitarian aid, a lot of international development.
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I was really interested in the psychology of international conflict.
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And a lot of people were like, that s interesting, but give me a break.
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It s never gonna, it s not gonna be the thing.
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So I got a lot of nos.
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So if you say every time I get a no, or I can only take three no s, and then I m gonna give up all my power, I m gonna give up my ownership of my own life, I m gonna give up ownership of my own vision, that s very dangerous.
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It s very crushing, I think, to the human spirit.
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So how can I come up with, if people, I have to come up with a way to interpret my reality in a way that empowers me.
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So instead of saying, people don t all understand me, what if we could say as entrepreneurs, for example,
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I am ahead of my time.
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And then it gives everyone permission.
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So if you don t understand me, I don t have to get so offended.
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We don t have to ruin the relationship.
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I don t have to quit my dreams.
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I just get to say, well, actually, let s say our pattern is I am a pioneer.
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If I truly am a pioneer, oh, everyone else hasn t been on these roads before.
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It s my job to explore and clear and come back and explain.
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And I forgive them for not understanding places they ve never been to.
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So it s the exact same situational outcome, me being creative, other people not getting it, me being a pioneer, other people not getting it, me being entrepreneur, other people not getting it.
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And then how do we handle that dissonance in a way that really allows us to work in these pattern efficient ways?
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Thank you for sharing that, Julia, and we don t have time to go through the other codes, but I ll just give the audience a taste of just a couple.
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Code 3 is about harnessing your emotional energetics.
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Code 4 is about mastering uncertainty.
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Code 5 involves rewiring one source code.
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Code 6 gets into quiet commanding.
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Code 8 is build a relationship from the future, and I skipped one.
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Code 7 is unleash your magnetism.
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And I wanted to conclude the episode like this.
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You are part of NASA.
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They ve selected you as an astronaut.
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I was like, no, I think we got our seat.
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I m not part of NASA.
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I get it.
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It s hypothetical.
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Hypothetical.
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And they have selected you to be a neuroscientist on the mission to Mars.
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And when you get there, you re the first group of people who land on it.
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And the powers that be say that you can lay an edict for the future of humanity on the planet.
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What would you set that edict to be if it was through leading with emotional power?
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Oh my God.
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I already know.
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I was like, oh, this one s going to stump me.
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This one does not stump me.
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I 100% am clear on this.
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It would be this.
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To come into a new relationship with the feelings you keep refusing to feel, because here s the truth of humanity.
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It is not that our problems get too hard.
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It is that our feelings get too big.
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Our lives break down, our businesses break down, our relationships break down, our homes break down at the point of the feelings we keep refusing to feel.
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It s too frustrating.
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I m too excluded.
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It s too aggravating.
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It s too anxiety provoking.
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It s too rejecting.
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Until we can learn how to more intelligently hold those feelings in a nervous system that frankly is designed to hold a lot of energy,
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The future of humanity won t change and I believe that if we can understand this conversation about emotional power emotional intelligence.
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on the planet.
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Wow.
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What a powerful answer that was.
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And a great one.
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If someone wants to learn more about you, discover the different practices that you do, where s the best place for them to go?
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I am on social media.
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So I would love to connect either at Dr. Julia Degangy on LinkedIn, Dr. Julia Degangy on Instagram, or you can come to my website, drjuliadegangy.com.
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And I d love to connect.
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Dr. Juliette Ganji, it was so nice to have you on today s show and quite an honor.
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And likewise, John, different discussion that I thought we would have, but I think a good one for the listeners.
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So thank you so much.
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Thank you too.
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I thoroughly enjoyed that interview with Dr. Julie DeGangi, and I wanted to thank Dr. DeGangi, Lisa Fortunato, and Harvard Press for the honor and privilege of having her appear on today s show.
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Links to all things Julie will be in the show notes at passionstruck.com.
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Please use our website links if you purchase any of the books from the guests that we feature here on the show.
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Videos are on YouTube, both at our main channel, John R. Miles, and on our Clips channel at Passionstruck Clips.
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Please check them both out and subscribe.
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Please consider supporting those who support the show.
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You can sign up at passionstruck.com and every week throughout the year, we are doing a weekly challenge.
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that will help you to gain more courage, take more steps, and lead you on the journey to becoming PassionStruck.
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You re about to hear a preview of the PassionStruck podcast interview that I did with Dan Harris.
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From global conflict zones to an unexpected on-air panic attack, former ABC News anchor Dan Harris embarked on a transformative journey.
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Discover how meditation turned his life around, leading to the best-selling book, 10% Happier, his podcast,
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and meditation app.
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I picked this concept up from the Dalai Lama, who I ve had the great privilege to interview a few times.
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He has this idea of wise selfishness, which I really like because I don t love admitting this, but it s true and wired, I find to be selfish.
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And that is one of the biggest flaws that I ve worked on inside of myself.
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And I just naturally go in that direction.
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I don t think this is totally uncommon, but it s a part of my mind that I ve wrestled with a little bit.
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And
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The Dalai Lama s argument is that we re all selfish, but there s a way to do it correctly.
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There s a wise or enlightened self-interest.
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And I think what you re describing fits that bill, because if you can focus on what you re doing that s valuable to other people, in my experience, it makes you less anxious and it improves the quality of your work and will likely, I m not guaranteeing this, but it s certainly what I ve experienced personally, make you more successful.
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Remember that we rise by lifting others, so share the show with those that you love and care about.
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And if you found today s episode useful, then definitely share it with someone who could use the advice that we gave in today s program.
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In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear so you can live what you listen.
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Until next time, go out there and become Ashton Stroud.