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Think about seeing a toxic person, and I know that people probably have toxic people in their lives, and this is why toxic people are so challenging, because toxic people put us out of integrity.
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Toxic people force us to use.
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Welcome to the school of greatness.
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My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur, and each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness.
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Thanks for spending some time with me today.
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Welcome to this special masterclass.
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We brought some of the top experts in the world to help you unlock the power of your life through this specific theme today.
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It s going to be powerful.
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So let s go ahead and dive in.
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This is my biggest fear with this book.
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This is my single biggest fear.
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And it was an issue for me when I first started writing it.
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Because I m going to be honest, you can use this book for manipulation.
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Yeah, of course.
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And that scares me.
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And when a smart person who s narcissistic is going to study everything and then start using it.
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It scares me.
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So how can you tell the difference, the subtle cues?
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These are very subtle now.
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Very subtle, yeah.
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So we re talking about big to subtle, right?
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There s like a range of them.
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So first is it is my biggest fear with this book that people do not have the right intentions.
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And my hope is that we can actually use these powers for good and not evil.
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That is the number one thing is you can if you want to.
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Here s the good news.
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There are certain cues that we cannot control.
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And if you have bad intentions, they will leak.
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So I call these danger zone cues.
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So in the book I talk about there s four different types of cues.
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There s highly warm, nonverbal, verbal, and vocal.
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So these are things that make you highly warm, highly trustworthy, highly likable.
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There s highly competent cues, verbal, nonverbal, and vocal.
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And then there s charismatic.
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The ones that are just knocking it out of the park, like they re just great.
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And the last one is danger zone cues.
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Danger zone cues are the cues that get us into trouble.
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They re the cues that liars use.
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They re the way that we leak guilt and shame.
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Actually, shame is not a bad thing.
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It s only when you have guilt that you ve done something wrong.
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So in the danger zone, it is very hard to inhibit those cues.
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So I teach them because I want people to be able to spot them.
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Okay.
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What are those cues?
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Okay.
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So there s a bunch.
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Let s talk about as many as we can.
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And this might be someone who s very successful, someone who s accomplished a lot potentially, someone that seems very credible, someone that could be in a power position, owning a business or having influence online or something like that, right?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Extremely successful, they could be successful, they could seem credible, trustworthy, but might be super narcissistic underneath.
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Yes, so there s a couple danger zone cues that we can control, which a manipulative person could inhibit, right?
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So for example, one that I found that I talk about in the book is Lance Armstrong.
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So Lance Armstrong, for those who don t know, spoiler alert, Lance Armstrong was doping.
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So someone was like, there was spoilers in the book.
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And I was like, you haven t heard of that news yet?
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I also talk about Britney Spears in the book because there s some really interesting cues on her, which I think why we re worried about her, why her fans worry.
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She shows a lot of danger zone cues.
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So Lance Armstrong in one of his early interviews on Larry King Live, he s asked about doping.
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And he does what s called a lip purse.
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So a lip purse is...
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When we push our lips into a flat line, we mash our lips together.
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That is a universal withholding gesture.
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So when we re literally trying to hold something in or hold something back or we don t like what s being said or heard, we go...
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And so you ll notice that when someone has been asked something they don t like, when someone had to lie a lot of the time.
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So we did a massive experiment in our lab where we asked people to send in videos of themselves lying.
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Actually, you play it in the book.
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It s called Lie to Me.
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So I have you lie to me, play this Lie to Me game, diagnose your own tells.
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It s very important to know your own tells because you should know what your danger zone cues are when you re leaking them.
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You should know those.
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It s good to know those in the back of your mind.
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Do that with your partner, right?
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You want them to know what those are too.
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So one thing that we noticed is on lies.
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That was one of the biggest indicators.
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So in Lie to Me Game, we ask you to do two things.
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We ask you to tell us an embarrassing story, your most embarrassing story, and then a fake embarrassing story.
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And we want to see if we can tell the difference.
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If we cut the clips, can we know which one is the fake one?
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Man, that d be interesting.
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Yes, and it s amazing.
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You see the same danger zone cues over and over again right before someone s about to lie and tell their fake embarrassing story.
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They go, okay, and they lip purse right before they re going to do it, and that s because we don t like lying.
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Our body knows it s going to get us into trouble.
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So we re like, stop it, stop it, stop it, and we hold ourselves back.
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You ask a woman, how much do you weigh?
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She ll go, mm.
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Like, literally close those lips because no woman wants to talk about how much she weighs.
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So it s a withholding gesture.
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And so that s the first thing is you want to look for some of the bigger cues.
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Withholding gestures.
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Lip purse is one.
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A sudden distancing behavior.
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So we also noticed that liars in our lab, they wanted to like get away from the lie, like as if it smelled.
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So like when they were telling their most embarrassing story, they d be like leaning in, using gestures.
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Oh, it was so embarrassing.
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Remember, embarrassing stories are negative.
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It s not like it s a positive memory.
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It s like, people are like, and they do a shame touch.
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The universal shame touch is when people touch their fingers to the side of their forehead.
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Oh, gosh, I m so embarrassed.
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So they usually tell the truth and they do like this.
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Yes, because they re actually embarrassed, right?
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So these are all good, like congruent, right?
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We re seeing embarrassment and shame gesture.
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We re seeing negative nonverbal and people shaking their head, I can t believe that happened, right?
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Like, oh, they re so upset that happened.
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We re seeing cringes, we re seeing fear, we re seeing sadness.
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congruent, right?
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Like that s all congruent emotion.
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On the bad stories, we often see people will lip purse and they try to get away from it.
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So they ll say a statement and then, you know, and then, and they re literally like as far away, I hope I m not messing up my audio there, as far away from the lie as they can possibly get.
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They re leaning back, they ll sometimes literally lean their head back in the chair, and that s because physically we wanna distance ourselves from things we don t like.
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So we re looking for lip purses, sudden distancing.
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And there s a lot of cues that we can t control, right?
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So blink rate is another one.
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Eye-blocking behavior is liars have higher blink rates.
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They blink more.
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Yeah.
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Actually, in Britney Spears, she had a really interesting interview that I... I actually break this down on my YouTube channel, so you don t even have to read the book if you want to see it, where I break down the cues in this early interview.
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This is right before the conservatorship started.
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So very, very full of cues because it s right before it happened.
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And she gets asked,
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Very difficult question and she all of a sudden her blink rate goes from a normal rate to a high rate So she starts to to really quickly Blink her eyes like this and that is because when we re really nervous We literally want to close out stimuli to not see what s happening so we can process what s happening So blink rate is something that a lot of manipulative people cannot control.
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In fact when I share this people go Oh, I know a very narcissistic man
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manipulated person who has a very high blink rate.
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Interesting.
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Because they re literally like trying to block out the lie or the manipulation.
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And so they ll sound really good, but they re like really like processing a lot.
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And you re like, why are they blinking so much?
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And it s because they re trying to process.
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Oh my goodness.
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So just knowing those cues are not all bad on their own, but it s important to know what those cues look like so you can spot them.
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And I do think
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I really think manipulative people will get caught eventually.
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It is very hard to fake competence.
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It is very hard to fake warmth.
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It s hard to keep that up.
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And so for the long game, yes, you can learn a couple of these cues and try to master your way around them.
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But for the long game, it s really hard.
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I mean, look at Theranos, right?
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So Elizabeth Holmes.
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So spoiler alert, Theranos did not go well.
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I feel like I always have to say that.
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So one of her interesting cues is, I don t know if you ve ever seen her talk.
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She uses a really deep voice, like fakely deep, like down here.
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And people used to say, like, is that real?
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It s because she read in some Q book, it wasn t mine because my book wasn t out then, thank goodness.
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She read in some book that having a lower tone of voice makes you more competent and that is true.
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Research has found that people who use the lower end of their natural voice tone are seen as competent.
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That s for both men and women.
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So you have a very deep voice and it serves you really well.
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When I m talking right now, I m trying to use the lowest end of my natural register.
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When I m talking to my toddler.
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Right, right.
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When I m talking to my toddler, I m much more up here.
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You know, hey, baby, how are you?
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But if I were to do my entire interview like this, it would drive you crazy.
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Right?
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You wouldn t feel confident.
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No.
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And it wouldn t.
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People would go, I can t.
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I m not saying I can t or take her seriously.
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So she read that study, obviously.
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It went an octave lower.
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There you go.
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It went an octave lower.
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So it wasn t her natural voice tone.
1
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It was like one step lower than her voice tone.
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So she was always talking like this.
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And when she did an interview, she would talk like this.
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And you would hear that this just doesn t sound natural.
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And part of your spidey sense would be like, why is she talking so low?
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It sounds really unnatural.
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And it came out that when she was drunk,
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Her employees noticed that she went back into her natural register.
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So there are cues that they will eventually bring.
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Don t drink alcohol.
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That is the point of this story.
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Don t drink alcohol.
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Or you ll get caught.
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So you can t keep it up for that long, is that she was faking that cue, we think.
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I think you re also just, your body is out of integrity.
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Like the more you re keeping back something, you re telling a slight lie or whatever.
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I mean, I felt this from the past because I ve been out of integrity in my life at different times, from different stages of childhood to adulthood, right?
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From little white lies to bigger stuff hiding from my parents or whatever it is.
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So you re like, ugh, like something inside of you feels off, right?
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And then you got to like keep the lie up and you re like, ugh.
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Eventually you re going to explode or you re going to have a heart attack or something.
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It s going to leak.
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It s going to leak.
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It s going to leak.
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Leaking cues.
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You leak those cues and like those are the cues that we re looking for.
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Like I want you to be on the lookout for them because when something feels bad, like even like something feels bad, even just then when you were saying it felt bad, your voice tone changed just then.
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Because when you think about oh, I m like think about seeing a toxic person and I know that people probably have toxic on our lives And this is why toxic people are so challenging because toxic people put us out of integrity Toxic people force us to use warm cues where we don t feel like it.
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Hmm.
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I
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Now we can do it.
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What do you mean?
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We gotta be nice to them or something?
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Yeah.
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So like if you have a toxic person, and this is the thorn in, and I think our work is I want everyone to be their best selves.
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I want them to show up as their warmest, most confident self.
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But what if you have a toxic person?
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How do you do that authentically?
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And this is what s so hard about toxic people.
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You have a colleague or a coworker or a family member that you don t like, right?
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And you have to break out the fake warmth cues.
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Oh, hi.
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How are you?
1
Right.
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And so what do we do?
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We fake smile, right?
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So, oh, it s so good to see you.
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SPEAKER_00
It doesn t look like it, right?
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SPEAKER_00
Or we say, oh, yeah, so how?
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, that sounds good.
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Congratulations.
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and now your LA roots are coming back to you.
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Right, that s why toxic people challenge us is because they come into our lives, we know we re supposed to be warm, and so we try to force that warm sound and it comes out sort of forced and then it makes us feel bad and then we re trying to overcompensate for it.
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And so you know what, the antidote here is not learning more fake warmth cues, it s time to get rid of toxic people.
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I think that s like the side effect of the book is like,
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Don t keep them around.
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Don t keep those people around because it will leak and so set boundaries around that.
1
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So what do you mean it will leak?
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Like your integrity will leak because you re constantly trying to be nice but you re actually out of integrity because you don t want to be.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right.
1
SPEAKER_01
Is that right?
1
SPEAKER_00
Right.
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SPEAKER_00
That s exactly right.
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So your body is like I m doing something that s not authentic to me because I feel like I have to with this person.
1
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That s right.
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And the more frequently you do that you feel out of integrity with yourself.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yep, exactly.
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With yourself?
1
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With yourself.
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That was the question you were asking me.
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And I m like, yes it was.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes, yes.
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That was perfect because you were asking a question I knew.
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Yes, is if you allow toxic people to come into your life, especially without boundaries.
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We have to have some of those people we deal with.
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But if you don t have boundaries around them, they come into your life and you have to fake niceness.
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And that feels really bad.
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What happens if, let s just say there s a person you don t like.
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Let s just say it.
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Maybe they re not toxic.
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There s someone you don t like and you don t like being nice to because you feel like,
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Why am I spending, I just don t, nothing wrong with them, but it s not my person, yeah.
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Totally.
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Let s say you re in a work environment.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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And you re at a company, you got 50, 100 employees that you re working with, you re on a team with, and you re just, okay, I m here.
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Yeah.
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Is it better to be...
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inauthentic and lie and act nice around this person.
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Friendly, fake, how are you, interested, even though you ve been around them for six months or a year and you realize you really don t like them.
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Or is it better to go right up to the person after six months and say, you know what, I just want to be completely honest and not fake with you because I feel like I ve been fake.
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that I don t connect with you, I don t like you, I think you re out of integrity, I think you re inauthentic, and maybe I m being judgmental, but I d rather be honest with you and fake nice to you.
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Okay, that s A and B. Can I give a C?
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Sure.
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Okay, so I don t believe in fake it till you make it.
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So I try not to give fake it.
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I don t roll that way.
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I just think it s exhausting.
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I think it s going to leak.
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The C option here is to not fake warmth, but is to double down on competence.
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So if you are working with someone that you don t like, the one thing that you do have to do is get stuff done with them, right?
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You have to master your tasks, you have to be on it, you have to be responsive to emails.
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So that is something that you can be authentic about because to do your job, you have to be able to get along with them in a very professional setting.
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So I would skip all the fake warmth stuff.
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Just go right into competence.
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Right, like stick with where you re authentic, which is like, I don t need to hear about your weekend.
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I don t need to go to happy hour with you.
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I don t need a fake sitting with you for coffee.
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SPEAKER_00
But you know what?
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We can get stuff done.
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SPEAKER_00
You know what?
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We align on goals.
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So create boundaries around the, hey, let s go have coffee.
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SPEAKER_01
Actually, no, I m busy.
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I m so busy.
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SPEAKER_00
I m so busy today.
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SPEAKER_00
But you know what?
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Let s do a brainstorm session tomorrow at the end of the day so we can really kick off.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah.
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So get back to like the mission, the task on hand, the competence.
1
SPEAKER_01
And maybe you ve just got to be like, okay, this is someone where, you know, 20 seconds a day I ve got to be around someone that s trying to be fake, lati-dati with everyone and I m just waiting.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m going to get stuff done.
1
SPEAKER_01
And then I ll move on to the next thing.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s it.
1
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because then at least you re focusing on where you can be authentic.
1
SPEAKER_00
And also that s – even if that were to come up, you could honestly say that kind of
1
SPEAKER_00
conversation could be, listen, like, you know, I m not really into like, you know, connecting at work.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m more about getting it done.
1
SPEAKER_00
I want to get home to my kids and my family.
1
SPEAKER_00
I hope that s okay with you.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, when we re together, if it s all right, I might skip lunch and just have us like, you know, work it out and be really efficient.
1
SPEAKER_00
I really appreciate how efficient you are because it allows me to get home to my kids faster.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, that s authentic.
1
SPEAKER_00
So what can you appreciate about them that s competent?
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
What can you highlight about them that s competent?
1
SPEAKER_00
And that s a weird way to work.
1
SPEAKER_01
What if you don t feel like they re warm or competent?
1
SPEAKER_01
You re like, this person on the team is just... They can t get anything done, they re not smart, and they have fake attitude around me all day.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, this depends on how you feel, but I would say deal with it.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, go to your boss.
1
SPEAKER_01
Right, and say, hey, can you put me on a different team?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you say, like, I don t know how I can work with this person.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don t want to be unauthentic, but I m telling you that we re not getting stuff done, and they are causing issues on the team.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, I don t like to ignore that stuff.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, you could hope it gets better, but ask for help.
1
SPEAKER_00
If you have someone on your team or someone in your life who is not warm nor competent and doesn t treat you with warmth or competence, either get them out of your life,
1
SPEAKER_00
Set a boundary or get help.
1
SPEAKER_01
Don t live with it.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, don t live with it.
1
SPEAKER_00
Life is too short to feel fakely competent or fake warmth.
1
SPEAKER_01
Right.
1
SPEAKER_01
What s been the, I think I asked you this last time, what s been the charisma strategy, if you want to call it a strategy?
1
SPEAKER_00
You weren t sure about that.
1
SPEAKER_00
You weren t sure.
1
SPEAKER_01
I don t know if the word is right, but what is the charisma or social cue that you ve learned in the last six months?
1
SPEAKER_01
that has brought some new attention to your life where you said, ah, I wasn t aware of that fully, but now the research is showing that when someone does this, it improves this.
1
SPEAKER_00
There s a new cue that I snuck into the book in the very last draft because I just learned it.
1
SPEAKER_00
And this is actually brought to me by one of my male readers.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I m so curious.
1
SPEAKER_00
OK, do you agree with this, Lewis?
1
SPEAKER_00
OK, here s what they said.
1
SPEAKER_00
So in the book, I had a whole section on nodding.
1
SPEAKER_00
So nodding, affirmative nods.
2
SPEAKER_01
upside down, right, are yes.
2
SPEAKER_01
I nod all the time, yes.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes, you re a nodder.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s really high warmth.
2
SPEAKER_01
We love it.
2
SPEAKER_01
We love nodding.
2
SPEAKER_01
Is it good?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes, nodding is great because vertical nods, and by the way, this is different in certain cultures where they ll nod, they nod sideways.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s different.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so just vertical nodding in Western cultures is agreement.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s yes.
2
SPEAKER_01
In fact, research has found that when you nod at me slowly, I speak three to four times longer.
2
SPEAKER_04
That s cool.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s why you re a good interviewer is because you ll nod and be like, keep going, keep going, keep going.
2
SPEAKER_04
I m just like a bobblehead.
2
SPEAKER_04
I m just kind of like, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_04
I m very slow.
2
SPEAKER_04
I ll pause and be like, okay, cool.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay, well, actually, you re right.
2
SPEAKER_01
Slow nodding is tell me more.
2
SPEAKER_01
Fast nodding is finish up.
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, okay.
2
SPEAKER_04
Okay, I got it.
2
SPEAKER_01
I got it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right, right, right.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so that s the difference there.
2
SPEAKER_01
If you want someone to wrap up in a meeting, give them a one, two, three triple nod, like I got it.
2
SPEAKER_01
If you want them to keep going, an introvert,
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_01
So that s the difference.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s number one.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I ve shared about this.
2
SPEAKER_01
I taught it.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then a couple of my male readers said to me, you know, Vanessa, we think that there is a secret nonverbal cue between guys.
2
SPEAKER_01
Now, I don t know what this cue is.
2
SPEAKER_01
Here s what they said.
2
SPEAKER_01
If you know a guy and you re trying to acknowledge him guy to guy, you nod up.
2
SPEAKER_01
Good to see you.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s literally like an open gesture.
2
SPEAKER_01
You re open.
2
SPEAKER_01
If you don t know a guy, but you re trying to acknowledge his presence, you pay.
2
SPEAKER_04
Good to see you.
2
SPEAKER_04
Oh, wow.
2
SPEAKER_04
That s so true.
2
SPEAKER_04
Is it true?
2
SPEAKER_04
That s so true.
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_04
It s like, oh, good to see you.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Acknowledged.
2
SPEAKER_04
Good to see you.
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_04
Hey, what s up, buddy?
2
SPEAKER_01
OK.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s so true.
2
SPEAKER_01
OK.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I snuck it into the book last minute.
2
SPEAKER_04
Wow, that s fascinating.
2
SPEAKER_04
I wonder, is that like biology?
2
SPEAKER_04
Is that?
2
SPEAKER_04
Yes, here s what I think.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay, here s my theory on this.
2
SPEAKER_01
As soon as I heard this, I was like, and I started looking.
2
SPEAKER_01
I started watching men.
2
SPEAKER_01
I asked my husband, I asked my guy friends, and this is why I think it happens.
2
SPEAKER_01
When we know someone, we expose our jugular.
2
SPEAKER_01
So this is a very vulnerable part of our body, and we re saying, I know you, I trust you.
2
SPEAKER_01
Look, I m opening, I m acknowledging you, and I feel trustworthy.
2
SPEAKER_01
When you don t know someone, but you want to show respect, you nod down to protect your jugular.
2
SPEAKER_01
I don t know you, but I see you.
2
SPEAKER_01
I got you.
2
SPEAKER_04
I got you.
2
SPEAKER_04
I m here for you, kind of,
2
SPEAKER_01
You can t see my jugular, but I m here for you.
2
SPEAKER_04
I m going to protect myself, but I m here for you, bro.
2
SPEAKER_04
Exactly.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think that s where it comes from.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s like, do I know you or do I not know you?
2
SPEAKER_00
Let s view narcissism as almost like this inner core, okay?
2
SPEAKER_00
And the inner core of narcissism is this variable empathy, usually a lack of empathy, entitlement, grandiosity, validation seeking, a sense of envy for other people or the assumption that other people envy them, the inability to regulate their anger when they re frustrated, disappointed, or stressed,
2
SPEAKER_00
A sense of shame, so if anyone points out a flaw in them, they tend to react with rage.
2
SPEAKER_00
A reactive sensitivity to criticism, so if anyone points out anything, they come at them.
2
SPEAKER_00
Blame-shifting and responsibility-shifting, so they blame other people for what is actually their responsibility.
2
SPEAKER_00
They re very controlling, very egocentric.
2
SPEAKER_00
Everything is about them.
2
SPEAKER_00
Everything is self-serving.
2
SPEAKER_00
Insecure, deeply insecure, lots of feelings of inadequacy, but those are all sort of pushed down.
2
SPEAKER_00
All of these things I m talking about, the entitlement and all the rest of it, it s like a suit of armor that protects that inner core of inadequacy so nobody ever sees it.
2
SPEAKER_00
If I m walking around telling you I m all that,
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, then I can t be inadequate, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
And if I got a big fancy car and a big fancy house and a big fancy person on my arm, then I m all that, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
So with narcissism, we have to talk about sort of the top of the line behaviors.
2
SPEAKER_00
And those are our presentations.
2
SPEAKER_00
Charm, charisma.
2
SPEAKER_00
confidence, curiosity, and they also are- Can you have those things and not be narcissistic?
2
SPEAKER_04
You can.
2
SPEAKER_04
Because I m a very curious person, I can t, you know, I m like- You can.
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You can be curious and when you can find an empathic charismatic person Behold to them.
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They are the unicorns of the human being like When I meet that when I meet the confident charismatic Empathic kind respectful humble person.
2
SPEAKER_00
I do I literally I m like, oh
2
SPEAKER_00
And I can tell you it doesn t happen often and I m usually like I look goo goo eyes because I m thinking and then of course I m poking at it.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m like, no, no, no, I m gonna find what s wrong with it every so often I find it and I m like, it hasn t happened often.
2
SPEAKER_00
It hasn t happened often.
2
SPEAKER_00
But here s the thing, the charm, the charisma, the confidence, the curiosity, there s also comfort that they also offer.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like they ll often feel like they re rescuers, I can take care of it all.
2
SPEAKER_00
They ll be very generous.
2
SPEAKER_00
Upfront, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
It s all a front game, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, cash.
2
SPEAKER_00
So what happens then?
2
SPEAKER_00
The curtain comes down across all your common sense and you miss the little things.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is amazing.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Either you miss the lack of empathy and the anger and the rage and all the other stuff or you justify it.
2
SPEAKER_00
He s got a big job or she s really stressed or she doesn t mean that or that s just their culture.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was reading an article by a linguist recently, and the linguist was talking about how people talk over each other in certain cultures, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
And they were using that as a way to rationalize interrupting.
2
SPEAKER_00
And there s interrupting and there s interrupting.
2
SPEAKER_00
Narcissistic interrupting is not only, it s contemptuous interrupting.
2
SPEAKER_00
What s that mean, like dismissive interrupting?
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, all right, you know you re talking and then I not only cut in but it s basically like your point of view doesn t matter Oh, yeah, you re you re an idiot.
2
SPEAKER_00
I know what really yeah.
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_04
Okay, so you share some of these signs of Malignant.
2
SPEAKER_00
No, that s okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
So cool.
2
SPEAKER_00
Let s go back to this course.
2
SPEAKER_00
We got the core of lack of empathy all that stuff.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t know man Yes
2
SPEAKER_00
Now, the problem with narcissism is there s subtypes.
2
SPEAKER_00
Not all narcissists are creative.
2
SPEAKER_00
We really do need a whiteboard now.
2
SPEAKER_00
I d be writing notes up there because what we have then is the classical narcissist, the sort of 57 Chevy of narcissism is the grandiose narcissist.
3
SPEAKER_00
It is the big, charming, confident, I m the one, I m the best, no insight, very little empathy, kind of but very like big salesperson-y, that s the grandiose narcissist.
3
SPEAKER_00
But then when we talk about the malignant narcissist,
3
SPEAKER_00
Again, we have all that stuff, lack of empathy and all that other stuff, but they are more menacing.
3
SPEAKER_00
They are more controlling.
3
SPEAKER_00
They re a little bit more scary.
3
SPEAKER_00
They re sadistic.
3
SPEAKER_00
They re paranoid.
3
SPEAKER_01
What if they have both of those things?
3
SPEAKER_00
Usually they can, they can.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s a horrific combination, because then that person s real charming on the front end, and then once you cross the threshold and walk all the way in with them, now you re dealing with their malignant, manipulative, scary, and when we see, controlling, when we see manipulative narcissism, manipulative, I m sorry, malignant narcissism, we re seeing people who are often, they re more likely to be aggressive,
3
SPEAKER_00
to be violent, to be abusive, to isolate people from ever being able to get help, from being abusive in the workplace.
3
SPEAKER_00
We hear these big, awful workplace abuse stories, especially a lot in the Me Too era, a lot of those folks are malignant narcissists.
3
SPEAKER_01
So what happens if you re with a narcissist?
3
SPEAKER_01
Maybe it s been a year, you ve been dating someone, or your boss didn t seem like it at the beginning, but then you re figuring out, oh, check, check, check, they ve got a lot of these things.
3
SPEAKER_01
But the first six months seemed great, or it seemed like it was amazing, but now we re seeing the curtain pull back, and some of these things are coming out, and we re not feeling good about the relationship we re in.
3
SPEAKER_01
Whether it s a working relationship, a friendship, an intimate relationship, we ve spotted it.
3
SPEAKER_01
What I m hearing you say is there s really no way to change a narcissist.
3
SPEAKER_01
So trying to change them is not gonna happen.
3
SPEAKER_01
So does it mean we just pretty much have to rip the cord and rip the band-aid and get out?
3
SPEAKER_01
Or how does it, how do we navigate?
3
SPEAKER_00
So life s not that simple, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
We can t walk away from all relationships.
3
SPEAKER_00
People can t just quit their jobs.
3
SPEAKER_00
Let s say a person starts figuring this out five years in a relationship and they re married and they have children.
3
SPEAKER_00
What if it s their family of origin and they re like, I ve done my homework and this is actually my parent or my sibling.
3
SPEAKER_00
People say, well, I don t know that I m willing to cut off from my entire family.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I m not going to sit here and tell people that, oh, you just got to always go.
3
SPEAKER_00
In fact, my first book on the topic of narcissism is called Should I Stay or Should I Go?
3
SPEAKER_00
Surviving a Relationship with a Narcissist.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I wrote it from that point of view because it s too simplistic to say, well, get up and go.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like you said, rip off the Band-Aid.
3
SPEAKER_00
So if you re, and neither path is easy, but in an ideal world, I will be frank with you, and there s actually an interesting group in Israel that s gathering, has gathered some data on this, on narcissistic abuse, and they ve found that the thing that works best in dealing with a narcissistic relationship that resulted in the best outcomes was going no contact, like having no contact with them.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s the best.
3
SPEAKER_00
Completely blocking, cutting off.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, completely done.
3
SPEAKER_00
And because it s almost like a toxin.
3
SPEAKER_00
If there s a toxic gas, the best way to feel better is to have no more toxic gas.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re just going to be feeling a little bit of pain consistently.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s going to be holding on to it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Correct.
3
SPEAKER_00
But a lot of people don t have that.
3
SPEAKER_00
So the biggest, if you re going to have to stay in this relationship,
3
SPEAKER_00
You have to engage in something that I and others have called radical acceptance.
3
SPEAKER_00
This is never going to change.
3
SPEAKER_01
This is who they are.
3
SPEAKER_00
This is who they are.
3
SPEAKER_00
This is it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Then I tell people, I have something called the deep technique that I talk about.
3
SPEAKER_00
The deep technique is when I tell people, if you re dealing with a narcissist, don t defend, don t engage, don t explain, don t personalize.
3
SPEAKER_00
So deep, don t defend, don t engage, don t explain, don t personalize.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so when they re coming at you, and if you can remember, you really are keeping it tight.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s a lot of, it s like you re in a deposition.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes, no, okay, sounds good, sure.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now, narcissists don t like that because they love the fight.
3
SPEAKER_00
They re gonna bait you.
3
SPEAKER_00
They re going to bait you.
3
SPEAKER_00
And when I tell you when they bait you, they don t play.
3
SPEAKER_00
They go for everything that s going to get them.
3
SPEAKER_00
They go for your kids.
3
SPEAKER_00
They start making stuff up.
3
SPEAKER_00
They go after your friends.
3
SPEAKER_00
They draw your friends in it.
3
SPEAKER_01
Threatening to shame you publicly, whatever it is, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
And so then at some people, people take that bait and then they re narcissists like game on.
3
SPEAKER_00
And they re all in.
3
SPEAKER_00
I got you.
3
SPEAKER_00
I got you.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because when you re fighting, they re fighters.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s what they do.
3
SPEAKER_00
In fact, there was a great research study that came out from Ohio State University, Ohio boy.
3
SPEAKER_00
And phenomenal study that came out this year.
3
SPEAKER_00
And over 450 studies they examined and found really strong effects that narcissism is consistently associated with aggression.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s nothing soft about this.
3
SPEAKER_00
This is about aggression.
3
SPEAKER_00
They want the fight.
3
SPEAKER_00
They are always a better fighter.
3
SPEAKER_00
And they want the fight, so they bait you.
3
SPEAKER_00
You gotta be made a steel.
3
SPEAKER_00
Don t defend, don t engage, don t incite.
3
SPEAKER_00
To not get into the fight.
3
SPEAKER_00
Every relationship with a narcissist is a threesome.
3
SPEAKER_00
You just don t know it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because they always need that third person in the relationship.
3
SPEAKER_00
Whether it s someone gave me the number, or someone s noticing me.
3
SPEAKER_01
Or this person s hitting on me.
3
SPEAKER_00
They re always trying to create that sense of,
3
SPEAKER_00
Intrigue or the idea that somebody is more into them or there or?
3
SPEAKER_00
Again, it s often them creating the jealousy or they d be incredibly jealous of their partners Oh, there s a difference between jealousy and pathological jealousy.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s two different things.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so jealousy is normal and
3
SPEAKER_00
Jealous, we are a actually we re a pair bonded species.
3
SPEAKER_00
We human beings we are we we liked it.
3
SPEAKER_00
We pretty much are about Generally normatively have sex with one person people like no that person she I may said yeah They were only having sex with them.
3
SPEAKER_00
They weren t having sex with you, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
There is still when a sexually monogamous with one person You were on paper in a relationship with them you came you went to the same home and
3
SPEAKER_00
But their sex was with someone else, okay?
3
SPEAKER_00
But we tend to be pair-bonded, we tend to be monogamous, all right?
3
SPEAKER_00
So jealousy is a threat to that.
3
SPEAKER_00
Think of it Darwinianly, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
If I m in a relationship and a threat comes in, right, normal jealousy is that sort of evolutionary jealousy, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
I m with a person, if somebody comes in as a threat to that relationship, I ve lost the resources and support for our offspring, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
That s all the Darwinian stuff, reproduction.
3
SPEAKER_01
Pathological jealousy.
3
SPEAKER_00
Pathological jealousy, though, that starts getting into the realm of things like paranoia.
3
SPEAKER_00
and negative mood states and all that.
3
SPEAKER_00
Jealousy doesn t feel good, but I always, when I ve worked with couples, they re like, I m jealous.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m like, that s good, that means you still got a skin in the game.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because when people, I ve been with people, worked with couples, or worked with individuals, and they ll say, I m not even jealous when people notice my husband.
3
SPEAKER_00
I kind of feel sad, because I m like, yeah, this thing s kind of done.
3
SPEAKER_01
I feel like, yeah, I don t feel jealous, I feel like,
3
SPEAKER_01
I trust the person I m with.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I remember thinking in the driver, I m like, I got that little funny thing in my tummy.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, huh, he doesn t even live in this country.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so I m thinking, and I was like, that s good.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s good that I m still feeling like that.
3
SPEAKER_00
I still got a dog in the fight.
3
SPEAKER_00
I care.
3
SPEAKER_01
But it doesn t mean you re like, for days, letting it stress you out and like talking to him about it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Only because we re talking about it here.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, of course, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so the, what did you say it was?
3
SPEAKER_00
Paranoid, the pathological jealousy.
3
SPEAKER_01
Pathological jealousy, that s a narcissistic thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s more paranoid, it s more antagonistic, it s more about.
3
SPEAKER_00
You must be doing something.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s accusatory, it s almost delusional.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh my gosh, okay.
3
SPEAKER_01
What would you say, again, are the main causes, what are the main things that happen to cause someone to become a narcissist?
3
SPEAKER_01
Is it all trauma-based?
3
SPEAKER_00
No, it s partly trauma.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s also that temperament.
3
SPEAKER_00
It is chaos in the early environment.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s lack of secure attachment.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s overvaluation of the child, basically the child can do no wrong, and they re so wonderful.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, it s interesting.
3
SPEAKER_00
We re about to see something fascinating happen, and I don t know how it s going to go down.
3
SPEAKER_00
We re about to see, because Facebook s coming up on 20 years soon, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
We re about to see the first generation of kids who are born into the Facebook world, with every moment being documented and shared.
3
SPEAKER_00
Since they were born.
3
SPEAKER_00
Since they were born.
3
SPEAKER_00
this is the first time we re gonna be seeing this.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I bless the people out there who are gonna start collecting this data, because we now have, you re gonna see what happens if you were, because I had kids way before this, so I did not, the only people saw their pictures were the people I actually put them in an envelope, mailed a picture kind of thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so I came to the house and looked at the actual baby.
3
SPEAKER_00
But this is a whole new game for kids who basically were accessories to their parents  lives.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, look at my child this, look at my child this, look at my child this.
3
SPEAKER_00
Every day there s a new picture.
3
SPEAKER_01
Do you think it s okay to share some of your family life on social media and some of your children s special moments?
4
SPEAKER_02
moments, or do you think we should be protecting our kids at all costs and never show their face, never show anything until they re 10 or 12?
4
SPEAKER_00
It s a super interesting area.
4
SPEAKER_00
There s some actually really interesting thinking and writing about this, which is these children aren t consenting to this.
4
SPEAKER_00
Are these children consenting to you showing them
4
SPEAKER_00
have a meltdown, or you know, we see all these silly child videos and sometimes I kind of feel a little sadness because these things stay evergreen.
4
SPEAKER_00
They didn t agree to that.
4
SPEAKER_00
And as much as we say, oh no, it s so cute, they didn t consent.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s a vulnerability, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
So there s some, I know some folks in the developmental sphere of psychology saying, oh, this may not be entirely cool.
4
SPEAKER_02
They re not agreeing.
4
SPEAKER_02
what happens when the kids 23 and they start going back and seeing all these like things that their mom or dad posted and they re like Huh, that s not really cool.
4
SPEAKER_00
I wish you wouldn t have done that to me But it goes beyond that because even when the child is young There s this sense of things are constantly being done to them without them agreeing to it posing and put these clothes on and do this and let s post you yeah in a public way and that and then the child also gets this sense of their
4
SPEAKER_00
utility, their importance to their parents is their social media persona.
4
SPEAKER_00
You look so pretty in your dress.
4
SPEAKER_00
You look so cute in your costume.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like you re wondering, are you costuming your child for Halloween for you or for them?
4
SPEAKER_02
What would you say is the main traits of a narcissist?
4
SPEAKER_01
grandiosity, really wanting to be the center of attention, this veneer of confidence, being very easily wounded.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, wait a minute, you complimented this other person s whatever it is, they get so wounded, like, well, why didn t you compliment mine?
4
SPEAKER_01
Right?
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, you think that person s attractive?
4
SPEAKER_01
They ll like ice you out.
4
SPEAKER_02
Wow, so super jealous too or no?
4
SPEAKER_01
Very, but they act like they don t care.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, you wanna do, go ahead.
4
SPEAKER_01
I don t care.
4
SPEAKER_02
Like passive aggressive jealous or something, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
Very passive aggressive, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
Huh.
4
SPEAKER_02
Any other signs that people should look out for if they re like starting to date someone, they re like, huh, this seems very narcissistic.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think that Jekyll and Hyde quality that, you know, one minute you re like this and the next minute you are incredibly cruel.
4
SPEAKER_01
You can be incredibly warm and loving and incredibly cruel.
4
SPEAKER_01
And the two, you toggle between the two in a way that is frightening.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s like a split personality, huh?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, but it s not because the narcissist is doing the thing you reel them in the narcissist reels the person in with the charm the charm seduction You are the center of the universe and then oh you re my everything close to me.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I m gonna be cruel.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh
4
SPEAKER_02
So it s interesting, so it s like if you re with someone who s showing these traits and they re just wowing you and they re so nice and loving and grandiose, but then if you truly open up and you wanna get to know their heart, that s when they start to do other things or what happens then?
4
SPEAKER_01
If you get too close to them.
4
SPEAKER_01
Either you re being too intimate with them, although they want you to be somewhat intimate with them so they know how to use it against you.
4
SPEAKER_02
So they can manipulate you.
4
SPEAKER_01
Then I will use it against you in the moment when you are most vulnerable.
4
SPEAKER_01
Or they don t want you to know too much about them.
4
SPEAKER_01
They hide their vulnerabilities.
4
SPEAKER_01
They don t know how to get authentically close to another person.
4
SPEAKER_02
Why does someone become a narcissist?
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, that s, you know, I think so many people, anybody who s had experience with someone like that wants to know that.
4
SPEAKER_01
And you ll see that, you know, this is when we talk about we marry our unfinished business, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
So it s the person who grew up feeling very, they didn t get their needs met.
4
SPEAKER_01
They didn t get, you know, they were either neglected
4
SPEAKER_01
Or they grew up with a narcissistic parent.
4
SPEAKER_01
So what do we do with parents who don t meet our needs?
4
SPEAKER_01
On the one hand, we rebel against them.
4
SPEAKER_01
We say, I m not gonna be like that.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m not gonna choose someone like that.
4
SPEAKER_01
So the narcissist doesn t choose another narcissist.
4
SPEAKER_01
If the narcissist grew up with a narcissistic parent, they don t choose another narcissist.
4
SPEAKER_01
They choose someone like the other parent who was with the narcissistic parent.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then what they do is they take on the traits
4
SPEAKER_01
The narcissistic parent now, why do they do that?
4
SPEAKER_01
Even though they were so injured by that kind of parent It s like it s like the person who grew up with an alcoholic parent wire or a person who like couldn t self-regulate Why do they become the angry yeller even though their parent was the angry yeller and they said I would never do that How do you get close to a parent who couldn t get close to you you become?
4
SPEAKER_01
Like them that s your connection to them.
4
SPEAKER_01
This is completely outside of your awareness.
4
SPEAKER_01
You don t realize that and
4
SPEAKER_01
But we still, the wish never dies that we can be close to our parents.
4
SPEAKER_01
The wish never dies.
4
SPEAKER_01
So what do we do if we don t process this?
4
SPEAKER_01
If we process it, then we know, okay, I have to watch out for that.
4
SPEAKER_01
I have to find another way to grieve what I didn t get growing up.
4
SPEAKER_01
I have to really go through that grief process, and I m going to have that loss is gonna live with me, but it s gonna live with me in a way that isn t so sharp.
4
SPEAKER_01
So you really have to grieve it.
4
SPEAKER_01
But if you don t grieve it, you repeat it.
4
SPEAKER_02
You take on the trait of one of your parents.
4
SPEAKER_01
You take on their traits because that helps you feel close to them.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, I m gonna feel close to you in this way.
4
SPEAKER_01
This is not in your conscious awareness.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then people don t realize it.
4
SPEAKER_01
They think, oh my gosh, one day someone says to them, you are exactly like your mom, your dad.
4
SPEAKER_01
And they go, oh my God, I am.
4
SPEAKER_01
If they can get past the narcissistic protection.
4
SPEAKER_02
If they can hear it.
4
SPEAKER_02
I m not like my parents.
4
SPEAKER_01
No, I m not like them at all.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m not like them at all.
4
SPEAKER_01
If you could take a videotape of a scene from your childhood and you take a videotape of how you re acting now with your own child, you would be stunned.
4
SPEAKER_02
Wow.
4
SPEAKER_02
So how does someone, if they re, okay, they ve realized maybe there s narcissistic traits or that s a full-on narcissist that they re in a relationship with, what are the next steps they should take?
4
SPEAKER_02
Is there a way to actually, I mean, you can t really change someone in a relationship, what I m hearing you say.
4
SPEAKER_02
No matter what you do, the person s not gonna change, right?
4
SPEAKER_02
So do you need to change in order for them to change, or is it just, if you re someone who s diagnosed narcissist, there s no hope for actually healthy growth in the relationship?
4
SPEAKER_01
Well, someone who has narcissistic traits generally doesn t come to therapy because they don t think they have a problem.
4
SPEAKER_01
Right, they re like, no, I m good.
4
SPEAKER_01
Right, so how they come in is they re having some relational difficulty.
4
SPEAKER_02
Right.
4
SPEAKER_01
And the relational difficulty is either they re coming in for couple s therapy because
4
SPEAKER_01
the other person drag them there.
4
SPEAKER_01
So often we say that the reason that people come to therapy is to deal with the people who won t go to therapy.
4
SPEAKER_01
You re coming to therapy to deal with the person in your life who won t come to therapy.
4
SPEAKER_02
Isn t it obnoxious when companies have those sneaky gotchas hiding deep in the fine print or bills that seem to go up for no dang reason?
4
SPEAKER_02
Like when budget airlines promise a cheap fare but then charge you for every little thing until you realize you re paying even more than you would have elsewhere?
4
SPEAKER_02
At Metro by T-Mobile.
4
SPEAKER_02
There s nada yada yada.
4
SPEAKER_02
That means no contracts, no price hikes, no surprises.
4
SPEAKER_02
They don t even want me to speed through the legal, so here it is.
4
SPEAKER_02
When they say no price hikes when you join, they mean your price will never increase for talk, text, and smartphone data plans.
4
SPEAKER_02
Their only exclusions are for limited-time promos, per-use charges, and third-party services.
4
SPEAKER_02
I guess that really is nada yada yada at Metro by T-Mobile.
4
SPEAKER_02
Nada yada yada.
4
SPEAKER_02
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Three previous relationships.
4
SPEAKER_02
I was in I was like we need therapy.
4
SPEAKER_02
We need to like we re getting the point I was like Somebody s not working here.
4
SPEAKER_02
Let s go to therapy and like try to work this through None of my partners wanted to go to therapy.
4
SPEAKER_02
They resisted resisted resisted and I was like what we were not figuring it out on our own Like I m trying you re trying.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s not working.
4
SPEAKER_02
Let s go.
4
SPEAKER_02
Let s have someone look at no
5
SPEAKER_01
It was like so much resistance.
5
SPEAKER_01
I was just like, right.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so in that, in that case, not saying they re all narcissists, but no, no, no.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I m not even talking about, so, so I, well, let me differentiate.
5
SPEAKER_00
So there s, if you know, a narcissistic person, meaning diagnosed narcissistic, um, or, or even people with narcissistic traits, they tend not to come on their own to therapy unless
5
SPEAKER_00
they actually agree to come in couples, and they re coming because their partner is making them come.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yes, that s the only reason.
5
SPEAKER_00
Or, and then you kind of see like how flexible are they with their story, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
Because everybody s coming in with their story, both people, both people need to be.
5
SPEAKER_00
Their perspective, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Right.
5
SPEAKER_00
The other reason, like, and maybe you should talk to someone, John, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
When I talk about him, he s this guy who s in his 40s, he s married, he has some kids,
5
SPEAKER_00
He is incredibly insulting to me from the minute he walks in the door.
5
SPEAKER_00
Everybody else is the problem.
5
SPEAKER_00
In fact, the chapter is called Idiots because he says everybody else is an idiot.
5
SPEAKER_00
Why aren t people as smart as he is?
5
SPEAKER_00
Why aren t people as competent as he is?
5
SPEAKER_00
Why can t people do things right?
5
SPEAKER_00
And he s like the beleaguered victim.
5
SPEAKER_00
You see that sometimes, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
I m so talented and smart, I m the victim.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m the victim of all these other people are causing so much anxiety in my life.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like, why aren t they doing things the way that they should be done?
5
SPEAKER_00
Why are they complaining about all these things?
5
SPEAKER_00
Not realizing that he s the one doing the complaining.
5
SPEAKER_01
About every day, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Right, right.
5
SPEAKER_00
We call it complaining from the victim position.
5
SPEAKER_00
Or being offended from the victim position.
5
SPEAKER_00
Everybody else is the problem.
5
SPEAKER_00
Or or the reason that people are cruel to another person as they say, you know Like like I was the victim so I can hurt you twice as much.
5
SPEAKER_00
Oh So if you hurt me, I have a right to hurt you back, right, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
I m doing this to protect myself, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
Um, so so when John came in he was you know, he you know, you very much say a lot of people would say I don t want to treat somebody like that because I don t know how much progress they re going to make and
5
SPEAKER_00
because if they can t self-reflect, you have to be able to see yourself.
5
SPEAKER_00
In the book, I talk about the difference between idiot compassion and wise compassion.
5
SPEAKER_00
So idiot compassion is what we do with our friends.
5
SPEAKER_00
So your friends say like, listen to what my partner did, or my mom, or my kid, or my sibling, or whatever it is.
5
SPEAKER_00
And we say, yeah, that s terrible.
5
SPEAKER_00
You re right, how dare they?
5
SPEAKER_00
You re right, they re wrong.
5
SPEAKER_00
We just back them up blindly because we think we re being supportive.
5
SPEAKER_00
But if you actually listen to your friends over time, you might hear that there s a pattern that they are kind of complaining about similar types of things.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s kind of like if a fight breaks out in every bar you re going to, maybe it s you.
5
SPEAKER_00
We don t say that in Idiot Compassion.
5
SPEAKER_00
So in therapy, what we offer is we offer wise compassion.
5
SPEAKER_00
And in wise compassion, we hold up a mirror to you.
5
SPEAKER_00
to help you to see yourself in ways that maybe you haven t been willing or able to do.
5
SPEAKER_00
And compassion is the key word here because we re doing it compassionately.
5
SPEAKER_00
So someone who comes in and they re not able to self-reflect, they re not able to see their reflection in the mirror and say, yes, oh, I have a role in this too.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yes, it s true the other person does this, but I have a role in this too.
5
SPEAKER_00
So when you are asking about change,
5
SPEAKER_00
When people come in for couples therapy, I always give them an assignment before they come in.
5
SPEAKER_00
And the assignment is this, because normally the first thing that will happen if I don t is they re going to come in and they re going to name all the ways that their partner needs to change.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then we get nowhere.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I say to them, I want you to come up with how you can make this relationship better.
5
SPEAKER_00
I want you to come up with what you re going to do
5
SPEAKER_00
What are you going to be working on to make this relationship better?
5
SPEAKER_00
Even if your partner never changes and they each have this assignment.
5
SPEAKER_00
So from day one, they come in and even though they may have a lot of reasons that, you know, things aren t working out, that they think are their partner s issue.
5
SPEAKER_00
Their goal in therapy is to work on the one thing or the two things or the three things that they think they can do to make the relationship better.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it changes the whole course of the couple s therapy because it s not about changing the other person.
5
SPEAKER_00
The magic of this is that they say, well, what s the point of doing it if they re not going to change?
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, first of all, again, going from the me and the you to the us is things are going to go more smoothly.
5
SPEAKER_00
Because you re gonna be doing something to improve the relationship But the other part of it is and where the magic comes in is you can t change another person But you can influence change in another person absolutely so when you do something differently You are helping the other person to change no one changes because you say I want you to change in this way
5
SPEAKER_00
That doesn t really happen.
5
SPEAKER_00
They might do it.
5
SPEAKER_00
You know, they might pay lip service to it.
5
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t really last.
5
SPEAKER_00
But if you start changing, if you make it easier, you help them to change by making it easier for them to change.
5
SPEAKER_00
So let s say they really need space.
5
SPEAKER_00
Give them some space.
5
SPEAKER_00
Let s say, you know, you try to control them less.
5
SPEAKER_00
Let s say that you don t engage in the same familiar argument over and over and over.
5
SPEAKER_00
Maybe you do something kind for them.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then people say about that, they say, well, why should I do something kind?
5
SPEAKER_00
Why should I go first?
5
SPEAKER_00
If they would be nice to me, I ll be nice to them.
5
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t matter.
5
SPEAKER_00
You need to go first because someone needs to do something.
5
SPEAKER_00
Someone needs to change the dynamic.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s like a dance.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so if you do something nice for them, you might notice that they, not because it s a tit for tat, not because they re doing it because you did, it s because they feel safer.
5
SPEAKER_02
They feel more loving toward you.
5
SPEAKER_00
They feel like, oh, that was really nice.
5
SPEAKER_00
I really liked that.
5
SPEAKER_00
Now I actually want to, on my own volition, want to do something nice for you.
5
SPEAKER_01
What if someone says, I m going to improve all the three, five, 10 areas that I know can improve.
5
SPEAKER_01
And after six months, the other person s like, yeah, I deserve all these things and I m not going to give any more.
5
SPEAKER_01
Then what?
5
SPEAKER_01
If you keep coming back, have you seen that where people come back and it s like, okay, I ve done this.
5
SPEAKER_01
I did this.
5
SPEAKER_01
I did this.
5
SPEAKER_01
And they re still not happy.
5
SPEAKER_01
They re still upset.
5
SPEAKER_01
And they re still not shifting in certain ways.
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, first of all, I think that what they engage in then is what I call the pain Olympics, which is like whose pain is greater?
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you know like I m working so hard.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m working 12-hour days Well, I m taking care of the kids or I m doing this or you know Like I m doing all of this kind of labor in the relationship and you re doing all of it It s there s no there s no winning the pain Olympics.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like let s just say that you re both at a tent Okay, you both win
5
SPEAKER_00
You both are in pain.
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You both lose.
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But you both lose if you keep trying to compare it.
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The point is, you re both struggling.
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And what s really interesting about couples is that couples don t tend to tell the other person exactly how they re struggling in a relationship.
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Instead, they act it out.
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They act out their fears or their disappointment or their hurt in other ways.
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But they don t directly say, this is how I m struggling.
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And so if you re in couples therapy, you re gonna start talking about those things.
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And if you re not, then you re not really doing couples therapy.
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So, I mean, I think that your therapist will tell you very early on, like, this is the work that we re doing, and this is, I think some people think that couples therapy is you come in, you download the argument of the week, or the struggle of the week, you leave, you come back the next week, and you download the new thing.
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No, that s like talking to a friend.
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There s no point to that.
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What should the point of therapy be?
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The point is that you want to be doing the most of the therapy of couples therapy takes place outside of the therapy room meaning what happens in between sessions so we came in we talked about this you learn something new about yourself and
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You learned something new about your partner.
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And then we always say insight is the booby prize of therapy, that you can have all the insight in the world, but if you don t make changes out in the world between sessions, the insight is useless.
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So then, okay, you have this insight, you learned something.
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What are you going to do with that knowledge?
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Use it.
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Like, why are you wasting your time and your money coming in here every week if you re not going to use it?
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What s been the thing that you ve seen as a therapist where you realized, oh, this is something that I have done in my relationships?
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Or, oh, actually, this is a really good lesson for me because I used to do that and I don t want to do that anymore or something like that.
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Has there been anything?
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I would say all of it.
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Really?
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I mean, I think that that s what makes relationships so interesting.
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And people think that it s only happening to them.
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They re like, you only do this.
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You know, it s really interesting that they feel like, you re the only one.
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My friends don t do this.
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Nobody does this.
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Their partners don t do this.
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Or I only act this crazy around you.
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Right like I don t I don t do this nobody else elicits this kind of response me Well, of course, they don t elicit that kind of response in you because you re not in an intimate relationship with them They re not bringing up all that unconscious stuff that comes up when you re in that intimate relationship So I think that the good news for couples is that anything they bring in I ve seen it before I ve experienced probably some of it before
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And it s so universal, and if people could stop, people can blame and shame.
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They blame the other person, they feel shame themselves, and then they don t really make progress because they re afraid to really look at these things because they re really uncomfortable talking about them.
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But when they find that, oh, this is just the human condition, and this is what happens when we get scared, this is what happens when we feel threatened, and maybe it s not even your partner who s threatening,
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something about being this close to someone, or there s something your partner does that reminds your nervous system of something that happened earlier.
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Like, who am I talking to right now?
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Am I talking to the child who had to come up with a way to protect yourself?
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from whatever was happening, and it was very effective.
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It was ingenious as a child because you had to.
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You didn t have agency.
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Or am I talking to the adult who has agency and doesn t need to use that way of protecting yourself that is actually creating some conflict in your relationship?
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Thank you so much for listening.
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I hope you enjoyed today s episode and inspired you on your journey towards greatness.
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Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today s show with all the important links.
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And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple podcasts as well.
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I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most.
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And if no one s told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.
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And now it s time to go out there and do something great.
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