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The following is a conversation with Craig Jones, Nicky Rod, and Nicky Ryan, who together with Ethan Crellinston and others, make up the B Team, a legendary jiu-jitsu team here in Austin, Texas.
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It was formed after the so-called Donaher Death Squad, the team headed by John Donaher, split up into New Wave Jiu-Jitsu and B Team Jiu-Jitsu, both located here in Austin, Texas.
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There has been a lot of trash talk back and forth, including accusations of greasing and steroid use.
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And I, as a practitioner and fan of grappling, jiu-jitsu, and martial arts in general, am here for it.
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To see the best grapplers in history, go at it, both on the mat and on Instagram.
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I like the people on both teams and train with both.
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And I m really happy to see the exciting rapid evolution of the sport that these athletes and coaches are catalyzing.
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And now, a quick few second mention of each sponsor.
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Check them out in the description.
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Go to lexfriedman.com slash hiring.
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Maybe you will too.
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This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp, spelled H-E-L-P, help.
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There s that quote from Jack Kerouac, the book on the road that I recently finished reading, rereading.
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Rereading for like, I don t know, the 10th at least time in my life.
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And there s a quote in there about the mad ones.
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the main character, Sal.
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It s strange how bad my memory is, but something tells me that his last name is Paradise, Sal Paradise, and Dean Moriarty.
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And Sal is Jack Kerouac, and the real life name of Dean Moriarty, I don t remember, but the character name is Dean Moriarty, and he represents sort of the weird, the crazy, the chaotic friend
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shaman, guide through life, the drop of poison in a perfectly calm drink or a perfectly calm pond or town like Tom Waits says.
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Anyway, those people and that part of ourselves is really powerful, that weirdness, that darkness, that chaos.
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But you have to have control of it, I think.
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I think being self-aware and introspective about that and bringing it to the surface and knowing that that part of you exists.
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Check them out at betterhelp.com slash Lex and save on your first month.
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This episode is also brought to you by Aidsleep and it s pod three mattress.
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As I record these very words, it is extremely late at night.
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It has been a long night before then and a long day.
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And the thing that carries me through is a beautiful power nap.
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or a couple of those.
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When I m deprived of sleep because of various curve balls that life throws at me, as it does for everybody, I think I at least maintain my sanity and my well-being by taking power naps.
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Sometimes I ll actually drink a coffee right before the nap and I take that nap and about 30 minutes after, I pop up all refreshed, ready to go.
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Not like now.
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Actually, physically, mentally, spiritually refreshed.
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Now I m more calm and zen, ready to take on the darkness that waits for me when I finally close my eyes and I m laying on that eight sleep bed as I m ready to very soon.
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It is a source of happiness for me, a cold bed with a warm blanket.
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It s a peaceful escape from the chaos of life outside.
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It s a weird little feature of biology that we get to sleep and that is both necessary and it s just wonderful.
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Anyway, check it out and get special savings when you go to asleep.com slash Lex.
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This show is also brought to you by Athletic Greens, and it s AG1 Drink, which is an all-in-one daily drink to support better health and peak performance.
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It is delicious.
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I ve drank it twice today because I m traveling.
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I packed a few travel packs to go with me, like little travel companions.
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that represent home, and then I get to the hotel, and I unpack it, and that s a little reminder, a little habit that I get to carry with me that represents home, that makes me feel like I m at home.
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Because what is home, after all, but a set of habits and a set of people that bring joy to our lives, and a set of habits that bring joy, and a fed of greens is that.
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It brings joy to my life.
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Above all the nutritional excellence it does for me, above all of that, it just makes me happy.
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A lot of things in my life make me happy.
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This is one of the consistent ones.
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To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.
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And now, dear friends, here s Craig Jones, Nikki Rod, and Nikki Ryan.
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SPEAKER_04
Craig, can you introduce everyone?
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Yep, so we got Nicky Rod here, brown belt, two-time ADCC silver medalist.
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Nicky Ryan here.
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That s it.
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Who are you?
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And I m Craig Jones, also two-time ADCC silver medalist.
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Silver medalist, so the number one loser.
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SPEAKER_03
Number one loser.
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And maybe a little bit more, your bio says, widely known as the black belt slayer, hails from New Jersey, the land of pizza and biceps.
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SPEAKER_00
Yes, that s pretty accurate.
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SPEAKER_04
You also do carry a gun on you a lot?
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SPEAKER_04
Yeah, I keep it loaded, you know, keep it on me.
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SPEAKER_04
You have one today?
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In the car.
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That was a mistake, that was your first mistake.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I think you re too close.
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And you are Nikki, Ryan, what else is there?
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What else do we know?
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Gordon Ryan s brother.
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Gordon Ryan s brother.
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I was waiting for that one.
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All right, so, and you re all together part of the leadership of the B team here in Austin.
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Let s just get out some introductory questions.
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What in general accomplishment of the things you mentioned are you most proud of?
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SPEAKER_03
I mean, I m proud just to not have to work a full-time job, just to get by on the bullshit I ve done so far.
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SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
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Honestly.
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Just making money of a thing you love.
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SPEAKER_03
Exactly, yeah.
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When was the first time you made money on a thing you love?
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SPEAKER_03
Probably a jiu-jitsu tournament.
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SPEAKER_03
I think maybe in Abu Dhabi where I won $1,000.
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SPEAKER_03
Thought I was rich.
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SPEAKER_04
Yeah, yeah.
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What d you spend that $1,000 on?
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SPEAKER_03
Probably something bad.
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Probably drugs or something at the time.
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Maybe blew it at the after party.
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That s a good introduction to Craig.
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So what about you?
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When s the first time you made money on jiu-jitsu?
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Or what s, actually stepping back, like what s the thing you re most proud of?
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Is it a similar kind of thing?
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I think I m most proud of is, I mean, for sure, two 80cc silver medals, which hurts because you re so close to getting that gold, but, you know, it takes time.
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I m understanding that, you know, sport of Jiu-Jitsu takes quite a while to be at the tip top, to be the absolute best.
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So, and I m just being consistent in my training and my craft, and I ll get that number one spot one day.
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What failure or loss is the most painful to you?
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SPEAKER_00
I don t know.
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SPEAKER_00
I have a pretty short term memory.
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SPEAKER_00
So my losses, I just like, I ll just forget about it.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I mean, for sure.
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SPEAKER_00
My loss at this past ADCC in the finals, you know, that one sunk in because I definitely thought I was going to win.
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SPEAKER_00
I mean, like, it takes a while to produce the skills or the reactions more so that you need to have to be, you know, to be that number one pound for pound guy.
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SPEAKER_00
And, you know, pre-ADCC I was coming off an injury, so it took me a little bit to find the right mentality and physicality that I needed in order to, you know, get the wins that required gold.
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SPEAKER_00
So, yeah, it s just a process.
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SPEAKER_04
Interesting you keep saying process like it takes a while to build up.
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SPEAKER_04
So you re not like thinking of a loss like a DCC is like Specific failures you re not you haven t gone long enough in a particular process to being a champ.
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SPEAKER_00
Well, I mean for me I m coming I m closing in on five years of specifically jiu-jitsu training.
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SPEAKER_00
I m about about four and a half right now and yeah, it s just the you kind of you constantly have these ups and downs in training where like I
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SPEAKER_00
As long as you stay consistent, you ll have a gradual raise, but still you ll have these peaks and lows and just trying to get better every day.
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SPEAKER_00
I m definitely not where I will be in a few years from now, but I m striving to get there.
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SPEAKER_00
Are you actually a brown belt or was that a joke?
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SPEAKER_00
Brown belt, yeah.
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SPEAKER_04
You re a brown belt.
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SPEAKER_04
Like, how many stripes?
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SPEAKER_04
No stripes.
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SPEAKER_04
No stripes.
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SPEAKER_00
Stripless.
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SPEAKER_04
Okay.
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SPEAKER_04
Is that part of the process that you re working through?
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SPEAKER_00
Definitely part of the process.
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SPEAKER_00
I mean, I think a black belt is just based upon how much knowledge you have.
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SPEAKER_00
Obviously, like, you know, if you re talking competitive-wise, like, from when I started, I was able to beat most black belts.
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SPEAKER_00
It s just,
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kind of how I was gifted from my wrestling experience.
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SPEAKER_00
And, you know, the time will come when it s right, but I m not in a rush at all.
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SPEAKER_00
I m continuing.
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SPEAKER_00
I just kind of take every day for what it is and try to improve upon that.
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SPEAKER_00
I mean, I want to give him the black belt.
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SPEAKER_00
Nikki Ryan says he s not ready.
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What is it?
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Are you guys, like, as no-gi folks, do you take that seriously?
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SPEAKER_04
Like the black belt?
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SPEAKER_04
Or like, how much does it come into play into
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I mean, it s like Nicky Rod said, you know, it s based off of knowledge, not just, you know, what you do out on the competition mats, because, you know, like you said, he had years of wrestling experience and obviously he s very physically gifted.
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So we grade based off of the amount of knowledge that you have.
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SPEAKER_02
How do you measure knowledge?
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SPEAKER_02
I think teaching is a good measurement of it, like how well you re able to show the moves and, you know, really make sure that you have an understanding of what you re doing.
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SPEAKER_04
Yeah, it s an interesting rank.
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It s something that takes many years to accomplish.
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And for a lot of people, it s truly meaningful.
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It s like it represents a particular step in a journey.
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But for you guys, it s almost different because you ve been so focused on competition that I guess if you take it seriously, it is a big step for you too.
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SPEAKER_04
Like as martial artists, that s bigger than just being top of the world competitors.
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SPEAKER_04
So I thought it was a joke.
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You guys are actually taking it seriously.
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SPEAKER_03
That he s a brown belt.
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That he s a brown belt, and you re taking seriously the rank of black belt, and it s part of your journey.
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SPEAKER_00
I think by the time I get a black belt, I ll be no more pound for pound.
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SPEAKER_00
I think it d be pretty nice to accomplish that as a brown belt, and then maybe toss a black belt on top.
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SPEAKER_04
Maybe get promoted on the podium.
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SPEAKER_04
What do you guys, do you love winning or hate losing more?
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SPEAKER_03
I definitely don t hate losing.
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SPEAKER_03
If it pays the bills, I don t mind.
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SPEAKER_03
Oh, really?
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SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_03
But honestly, if I win, I feel more relief than anything, rather than excitement and stuff.
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SPEAKER_03
I m like, oh, fuck, thank God that s over.
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SPEAKER_00
I hate losing, for sure.
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SPEAKER_00
But I understand that it s necessary to get to where you want to be.
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SPEAKER_00
And then winning is like, I mean, what I think winning is probably the closest you can think you can get to like heroin or something.
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SPEAKER_00
Cause I mean, we re on a, like if you have extreme success in a torment that you ve been, you know, adamant about training for and competing in for a while and you end up winning it.
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SPEAKER_00
I mean, I feel like you re on that high for days at a time afterwards.
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SPEAKER_00
Heroin is going to be better.
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SPEAKER_00
You think so?
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SPEAKER_00
I m going to stick with no, but I m not going to suck dick to win.
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SPEAKER_04
You know, like, because you come from a little bit of a wrestling culture.
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SPEAKER_04
One of the things I really love is at the end of the match when they lose, they just, there s no, they just run off.
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SPEAKER_04
They re like almost pissed off.
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SPEAKER_04
It s like some mixture of anger and frustration at themselves.
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SPEAKER_00
I think sometimes the people like freak out on the mat.
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SPEAKER_00
And I think that s just to show everybody like they re acting like they cared a lot and really maybe they didn t work enough to get to where they expected to be.
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SPEAKER_00
And they lost and then they had this big boost of emotion like after their loss.
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SPEAKER_00
But yeah, I mean, you just cry in the mirror and not to everybody else.
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SPEAKER_00
Have you ever cried watching a movie?
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SPEAKER_00
I don t think I ve ever cried, period.
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SPEAKER_00
Okay.
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SPEAKER_04
Have you cried watching a movie?
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SPEAKER_03
Not yet.
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SPEAKER_03
Not yet.
0
SPEAKER_04
The Notebook?
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SPEAKER_03
I try to avoid those movies.
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SPEAKER_03
Actually, I lie.
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SPEAKER_03
Titanic?
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SPEAKER_03
The last part of a difficult wake up for me is I try to find a sad movie and at least cry.
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SPEAKER_03
I bet a pound out.
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SPEAKER_03
That really gets me over the line.
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SPEAKER_03
Low energy cutting.
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SPEAKER_03
The tears.
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SPEAKER_04
There s other following liquids I could talk to you about, but let s just continue on.
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SPEAKER_03
Low energy.
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SPEAKER_04
What about you, Nicky?
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Love of winning versus hate of losing.
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SPEAKER_02
I m a very competitive person, so I for sure hate losing more than I like winning.
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SPEAKER_02
I do think it s something that s kind of held me back over the past few years, because it makes it so that I m not as active as I should be.
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SPEAKER_02
Because it s like, I really hate that feeling of, you know, after a match that you just lost.
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SPEAKER_02
So it kind of prevents me from competing.
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SPEAKER_02
So it s definitely something I need to work past.
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SPEAKER_04
So like, when you think about a competition, the possibility of losing, which is always there in competition,
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SPEAKER_04
is a thing that like weighs heavy on you in the months and weeks leading up to it?
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah, my whole life, you know, my financial stability, everything depends on, you know, my ability to go out there and compete and my ability to teach.
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SPEAKER_02
So, you know, it s it s a huge hit to the brand if you lose.
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SPEAKER_02
So, you know, leading up to matches, that s that s definitely something that s in my mind.
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SPEAKER_04
I know, so you guys are like world-class athletes, but for me, more like a hobbyist competitor.
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SPEAKER_04
I compete a lot.
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SPEAKER_04
The thing I was, because I really wanted to win, the thing I was probably most afraid of was not just losing, but like embarrassing myself.
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SPEAKER_04
Even actually winning by stalling.
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SPEAKER_04
That was the thing I hated the most about myself, in terms of crying in the mirror, is like being too afraid to take risks after I m up on two points or something.
0
SPEAKER_00
I think you got a competition.
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SPEAKER_00
Sometimes it s good to take the emotion out of it.
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SPEAKER_00
It s too easy sometimes to like, uh, think about all my girls and in the crowd and my family s watching, like I want to win cause they re there.
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SPEAKER_00
Uh, but the highest level of your emotional at all, no, that s affecting you.
0
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, that s tough though.
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SPEAKER_04
That s tough, especially like leading up to when you re on the map, maybe, but leading up to it.
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SPEAKER_00
I think it s okay to be emotional prior.
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SPEAKER_00
Like, you know, if we know ADCC is coming up and we have a big match, like definitely I ll go out and practice and I ll visualize, I ll put myself in that competition.
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SPEAKER_00
That way, when it s game time, it s like, I ve been there a thousand times already.
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SPEAKER_04
So not the actual competition, but even leading up to it, like stepping on the mat, like all the walk towards it, all that?
0
SPEAKER_00
All that stuff, like I ll do the same exact warmup for weeks on end until my competition day comes.
0
SPEAKER_00
That way, you know, when I compete, I m just like, oh, it s another Tuesday at practice.
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SPEAKER_04
What about you, Craig?
0
SPEAKER_04
How do you prepare mentally for a tournament like ADCC?
0
SPEAKER_03
I push it completely out of my mind.
0
SPEAKER_03
Don t even think about it.
0
SPEAKER_03
Try to avoid any visualization, any rituals, warm-ups, anything like that.
0
SPEAKER_03
Block it out until the last second, yeah.
0
SPEAKER_03
Try not to think about it.
0
SPEAKER_03
I just go to training to have fun, learn a bit.
0
SPEAKER_03
So I try to approach competition the exact same way.
0
SPEAKER_03
I don t warm up at training, do very little warm-up for competition.
0
SPEAKER_03
Uh-huh.
0
SPEAKER_03
And you just step on the mat?
0
SPEAKER_03
Step on the mats.
0
SPEAKER_03
My philosophy is there s no warm-ups on the street.
0
SPEAKER_00
We re so vastly different.
0
SPEAKER_04
All right.
0
SPEAKER_04
So you legit don t warm up?
0
SPEAKER_03
No.
0
SPEAKER_03
I probably should now I m 31, but I would just, like, in the gym, take it easy the first round.
0
SPEAKER_03
You know, like, if I look around the room and Nikki Ryan s there, I might go, all right, we ll have an easier first round today.
0
SPEAKER_03
So even for like the most high stakes matches.
1
SPEAKER_04
You try to push it out.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I didn t even think about it.
1
SPEAKER_04
What about like all the social, like Instagram posts you have to do about that match?
1
SPEAKER_04
You just make a joke out of it and kind of... Yeah, I mean, it s all kind of pretty silly, you know?
1
SPEAKER_02
We re just wrestling each other, you know?
1
SPEAKER_02
We put the meaning into it, but to someone that doesn t follow the sport, it looks stupid.
1
SPEAKER_04
Well, all of human existence is pretty silly.
1
SPEAKER_04
Like, what are we doing?
1
SPEAKER_04
None of us really know what s going on.
1
SPEAKER_04
We kind of have sex to reproduce.
1
SPEAKER_04
We get hungry, we eat.
1
SPEAKER_04
And then we re all chasing money and cars and whatever the hell in a capitalist society or we worship a dictator in a authoritarian regime.
1
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_04
And then we get off on, we ll let power abuse us and then we just murder others because we get off on it.
1
SPEAKER_04
And then eventually all of us will die because the sun will run out of energy.
1
SPEAKER_04
Because colonizing other planets is very difficult.
1
SPEAKER_04
So none of it matters.
1
SPEAKER_04
It s a good philosophy.
1
SPEAKER_04
It s pretty good.
1
SPEAKER_04
That s exactly what I was thinking.
1
SPEAKER_00
How does the sun run out of energy?
1
SPEAKER_00
You caught me there.
1
SPEAKER_04
Burnouts like it s a nuclear fusion engine and eventually burns out like when you get tired of training.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s never happened I try to get tired.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was like
1
SPEAKER_04
All right, cool, so you legit don t care about losing.
1
SPEAKER_04
It doesn t weigh heavy on you.
1
SPEAKER_02
I try not to list, like if I win, I try to block out all the compliments, all the niceties and stuff, so I try to do the same with losing.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s happened, move on to the next one, you know?
1
SPEAKER_02
Don t dwell on it too much.
1
SPEAKER_02
And sometimes make a joke out of it.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, exactly.
1
SPEAKER_02
Winning or losing.
1
SPEAKER_02
With the right joke, we can make money off of the event that s just transpired.
1
SPEAKER_02
That s what s most important.
1
SPEAKER_02
Excellent.
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SPEAKER_02
Thank you.
1
SPEAKER_02
I have a bunch of your merch.
1
SPEAKER_02
Oh, nice.
1
SPEAKER_02
This one s the Jordan Burroughs ripoff.
1
SPEAKER_04
All I see is silver.
1
SPEAKER_04
The way it pronounces Burroughs is very, very sexy.
1
SPEAKER_04
OK.
1
SPEAKER_02
I throw lines at people and I try to gauge their reaction.
1
SPEAKER_02
Like sometimes I ll say something to Nikki and I ll be like, all right, that s probably crossing the line.
1
SPEAKER_02
You know what I mean?
1
SPEAKER_02
We ll tone it down for the public.
1
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_04
So it s not just, right, you have to think as it s crossing the line.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
I get as close to it as possible.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
I feel like you can t really cross it.
1
SPEAKER_04
just a little bit.
1
SPEAKER_04
Just a little bit, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_04
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_04
Speaking of which, you said that I m Switzerland in World War II since I m friends with both you and Gordon and John.
1
SPEAKER_04
Very rich country.
1
SPEAKER_04
Are you a Hitler or a Stalin, by the way, in this analogy?
1
SPEAKER_04
Would you like to be Hitler or Stalin?
1
SPEAKER_04
And should you make a t-shirt out of it or?
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean, a Nazi t-shirt, I don t know how well that sells.
1
SPEAKER_04
I think it would, you know, I think, let s brainstorm on this one offline.
1
SPEAKER_04
I think since Hitler lost, so you got second place in World War II.
1
SPEAKER_04
That s true, that s true.
1
SPEAKER_04
I think that makes you Hitler.
1
SPEAKER_04
Anyway, to the degree that you can, can you tell the story of how, the time you ve had with the Donahy Death Squad and why you split up?
1
SPEAKER_02
I competed against Gordon for ADCC.
1
SPEAKER_02
and EBI in 2017.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I remember I competed against them at ADCC, and then we had the EBI event, and then I had a Kasai.
1
SPEAKER_02
I used to compete all the time, every week.
1
SPEAKER_02
I wouldn t even do the preparation or anything.
1
SPEAKER_02
I d just be trying to do seminars, make money.
1
SPEAKER_02
and then jump in and compete.
1
SPEAKER_02
I remember I showed up to Kasai after I faced him twice and there were like four locker rooms and they put me with all the DDS guys.
1
SPEAKER_02
It was just me and all of DDS.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I think we competed the weekend before.
1
SPEAKER_02
So I thought it was going to be super awkward, but it was actually pretty chill.
1
SPEAKER_02
And the Kasai was in New York.
1
SPEAKER_02
And they suggested to come train that week.
1
SPEAKER_02
So I came trained, hung out with them a bit.
1
SPEAKER_02
Ultimately, the goal was to move to America and join a bigger team just because that flight to Australia is death.
1
SPEAKER_02
Australia is so far away from everywhere.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s kind of like not realistic to base yourself in Australia when all the tournaments are in America.
1
SPEAKER_02
And then I went and trained with the guys, and they just had a massive
1
SPEAKER_02
massively deep talent pool in that room, like show up to like a meant to be 7am, actual 8am class on Brazilian time.
1
SPEAKER_02
And there d be like 100 people in there, maybe, I don t know how many black belts, but a ton of elite guys.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I was coming from Australia.
1
SPEAKER_02
training with Lachlan Giles, but really that room was pretty shallow and like most people had serious jobs and stuff.
1
SPEAKER_02
So it was like basically me just training with Lachlan, maybe a couple of other guys, and then to go to New York and have access to a wide array of training partners and guys that are training twice each day.
1
SPEAKER_02
I feel like that s what you really need.
1
SPEAKER_02
You need people that can train as much as you are working together.
1
SPEAKER_02
You get humbled in that moment first?
1
SPEAKER_02
For sure, because my style at the time was basically a rip-off version of what they were doing.
1
SPEAKER_02
Leg locks came in.
1
SPEAKER_02
I remember just watching Eddie Cummings non-stop and just seeing this guy rip people s legs off.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I was like, you know what?
1
SPEAKER_02
That s probably a good move.
1
SPEAKER_02
That looks like an easier path to victory than trying to beat these guys at what they re good at already.
1
SPEAKER_02
My philosophy at the time was if it s bothering old Brazilians, it s bothering them for a reason.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s probably effective.
1
SPEAKER_02
And that s the path I took to sort of try to rip off their moves.
1
SPEAKER_02
And then obviously to go into that room, try to do them to them, it s going to be a bit more difficult.
1
SPEAKER_04
All right.
1
SPEAKER_04
So that s how it started.
1
SPEAKER_04
How did you end up here?
1
SPEAKER_02
How do we end up here?
1
SPEAKER_04
We re in Austin, Texas.
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I like to think of Puerto Rico as apocalypse now.
1
SPEAKER_02
John Danaher as Colonel Kurtz.
1
SPEAKER_02
Things got very weird in the jungle and the teams went in two different directions.
1
SPEAKER_02
But honestly, I mean, it s not really my story to tell.
1
SPEAKER_02
I had some issues with some of those people.
1
SPEAKER_02
At the time of the split, I got along very well with John.
1
SPEAKER_02
I feel like me and him connected very well.
1
SPEAKER_02
I don t know why that was.
1
SPEAKER_02
Maybe it was just because he missed home.
1
SPEAKER_02
He missed the familiar accent, Australian, New Zealand accent.
1
SPEAKER_02
But, I mean, I basically followed Nicky, left with Nicky, sort of that core group of guys left with Nicky.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I mean, I just back, there was personal problems and I just back Nicky, basically.
1
SPEAKER_02
Got it.
1
SPEAKER_04
Just sticking on you for a bit.
1
SPEAKER_04
Is there a part of you that, you know, finds it heartbreaking that DDS split up?
1
SPEAKER_04
Does part of you miss working with John and everybody?
1
SPEAKER_04
Like, can you steal me on the case for that?
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I miss certain aspects of it, but I also do prefer the freedom of being apart from it.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s obviously a very strict regime under John Danaher.
1
SPEAKER_02
Obviously, there s parts of it I miss.
1
SPEAKER_02
The parts the public doesn t see of John, the behind-the-scenes banter, I feel like he s very conscious of the image he portrays to the world.
1
SPEAKER_02
But basically, it closed doors.
1
SPEAKER_02
He s always making jokes, always finding, I guess, more in line with the Australian
1
SPEAKER_02
Kiwi sort of culture, but you don t really see that in the public eye.
1
SPEAKER_02
So that perspective, I do miss that relationship with John.
1
SPEAKER_02
In terms of setting aside personal differences, Gordon was a good training partner, definitely a good training partner to train with.
1
SPEAKER_02
But obviously the negative things we can t really talk about outweighed all of those things.
1
SPEAKER_02
and we obviously had to make a decision to leave.
1
SPEAKER_02
But yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
The things that happen in the jungle.
1
SPEAKER_02
The things that happen in the jungle.
1
SPEAKER_02
Should never be spoken of.
1
SPEAKER_02
That I personally cannot speak of.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, but obviously I do miss certain aspects.
1
SPEAKER_02
Like, I mean, nothing s all bad, nothing s all good, you know?
1
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, this goes back to your, like, everything we re doing is silly.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, exactly.
1
SPEAKER_02
That s why I don t get people take it so serious, martial arts so serious.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s just pretty stupid, really.
1
SPEAKER_02
Especially in the gate, it looks just...
1
SPEAKER_02
It looks bad.
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean, it s pretty silly with and without the gi.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s just a bunch of apes.
1
SPEAKER_02
What s silly about no gi and what s silly about the gi and just mixed and matched bottoms there, you know what I mean?
1
SPEAKER_02
Wait, which one?
1
SPEAKER_02
Sambo, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_03
I see what you re doing, brother.
1
SPEAKER_03
You come to my house and offend my people.
1
SPEAKER_03
All right.
1
SPEAKER_04
We re going to go to every dark place apparently.
1
SPEAKER_04
Nick, how did you get with DDS?
1
SPEAKER_04
What was that journey like?
1
SPEAKER_04
Try to see if there s things that you remember fondly that you ve gotten from the experience.
1
SPEAKER_00
All right, so the way I started training with DDS, initially I was training for like, well, initially I was a bouncer, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
I dropped out of college to pursue this fitness modeling career.
1
SPEAKER_00
I ended up signing with Wilhelmina Models up in New York and I was like, trying to get in better shape.
1
SPEAKER_00
And while I was bouncing, kind of the talk of like, you know, who s tougher came up between the wrestlers and a few of the bouncers that trained jujitsu.
1
SPEAKER_00
They convinced me to go to a practice and I went to my first practice over there and for the most part I just controlled everybody, got on top of them, was able to avoid shitty submissions because I had an awareness of the sport and I m a fan of fighting and whatnot.
1
SPEAKER_00
I kind of understood it pretty well.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then soon after that, I joined a school and my second week of Jiu Jitsu, I started competing, had pretty good success.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was subbing a few black belts and beating everybody pretty decisively with points and stuff.
1
SPEAKER_00
And about three months into training locally, I got connected with Gordon Ryan and John Danaher up in New York.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I started, I committed to make the drive up there as many days as I could.
1
SPEAKER_00
At the time I lived in South Jersey and it was about two and a half hour, three hour drive without traffic to New York.
1
SPEAKER_00
Where in South Jersey?
1
SPEAKER_00
Gloucester County, Clayton, New Jersey specifically, but Gloucester County.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so it was about 130 miles and without traffic, you know, about two and a half hours or so.
1
SPEAKER_00
But on the way back, man, it d be three plus sometimes, you know, catching that rush hour.
1
SPEAKER_00
What year was this?
1
SPEAKER_00
Do you remember?
1
SPEAKER_04
This was in 2018.
1
SPEAKER_04
I forget how young you are.
1
SPEAKER_04
I was there before all that.
1
SPEAKER_04
All right, cool.
1
SPEAKER_04
Anyway, you re doing the long drive and then what?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, doing a long drive.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then, you know, once I won ADCC trials, I was able to make a couple bucks.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then, you know, I got my silver medal at ADCC and I was able to afford to live up there in New York and North Jersey area.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I lived up there, trained there full time every day.
1
SPEAKER_00
And, you know, it was kind of sucked with the team throughout the turbulent times and found ourself in Austin.
1
SPEAKER_04
In the jungle.
1
SPEAKER_00
In the jungle, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_04
One of the things we shall not speak of.
1
SPEAKER_04
What, uh, what, uh, are there things that you remember that you ve learned from John Donaher from your time you spent with him?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I definitely learned a ton from, uh, from John and the team as a whole.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, uh, you know, it s, you have to be the guy that asks questions in, in that type of environment.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right.
1
SPEAKER_00
Cause there s not, it s not, you re not going to get singled out to be that specific.
1
SPEAKER_00
like star or the best guy in the room when you have all these other, you know, stud athletes.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I really had to seek out and figure out the kind of questions that I needed to ask.
1
SPEAKER_00
And once I became a bit more verbal with my training and, you know, I m expressing all my curiosities about grappling to these guys, definitely helped boost my technique and my career as a whole.
1
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, did you understand what kind of stuff, like, technically you want to get good at, what fits your body, what would be good for you, what are your weaknesses and all that?
1
SPEAKER_00
So initially when I started grappling, I had an innate ability to just get to opponent s back.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I was like, all right, I m good at getting to the back.
1
SPEAKER_00
Let me get, let me perfect controlling the back and then submitting opponent via rear naked choke.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then besides that, I really focused on leg lock defense.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then eventually came the Roddy lock pass where, you know, I m, I m really good at body lock passing my opponents now.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then, and, um,
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it just takes quite a long time because you have to find different sequences.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then there s always these, an abundance of opportunities that your opponent gets from these specific sequences.
1
SPEAKER_00
So it takes a while.
1
SPEAKER_00
Is there part of you that finds the fact that DGS split up heartbreaking?
1
SPEAKER_00
Um, I definitely, you know, having one person to go to that runs practice every day, that s, you know, consistent.
1
SPEAKER_00
Um, it was definitely, it was definitely, definitely a gift, but now I m also gifted with many, many other partners.
1
SPEAKER_00
I have Nikki Ryan, um, you know, Craig Jonesy.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, we have Ethan Crowley, Damian Anderson.
1
SPEAKER_00
So a full team of knowledgeable athletes that I can continue to go to with multiple questions.
1
SPEAKER_00
But yeah, definitely, definitely.
1
SPEAKER_00
It took me some time to adjust to training or to learning from, you know, specifically my team and not just one person.
1
SPEAKER_04
We should mention for people just listening, because you can t visually see that Nikki Ryan is currently terrified.
1
SPEAKER_04
And Craig Jones is currently enjoying the fact that Nikki Ryan is terrified.
1
SPEAKER_01
But anyway, can you talk about your... Nikki, can you talk about your time with DDS?
1
SPEAKER_01
I started training when I was like around 13, you know, my brother Gordon had started prior to me, and I really just went into training just as like a means to exercise and lose weight at the beginning, because I was pretty fat as a kid.
1
SPEAKER_01
So I went to the first class, loved it, and then just started training every day at Gary s Gym, Brunswick.
1
SPEAKER_01
And then during the summer, when I d get off from school, they would take me up to New York to train under John.
1
SPEAKER_01
And you know, I just absolutely loved it.
1
SPEAKER_01
I knew what I wanted to do with my life at a young age.
1
SPEAKER_01
So I ended up dropping out of school actually after my freshman year in high school.
1
SPEAKER_01
So yeah, 15, I ended up dropping out and just pursuing jujitsu full time, you know, training every day up in the blue basement.
1
SPEAKER_04
Like what aspects of Jiu Jitsu made you know that this is the thing for you?
1
SPEAKER_01
It was just something I just enjoyed being, you know, like on the mats every day.
1
SPEAKER_01
I love that there s, you know, a problem solving aspect to it.
1
SPEAKER_01
So it s, you know, it s mentally challenging, it s physically challenging, helps me get in shape.
1
SPEAKER_01
So I just, yeah, right off the bat, I knew I loved it.
1
SPEAKER_04
Okay, so then we ll go to the jungle.
1
SPEAKER_04
What happened in the jungle?
1
SPEAKER_04
And in general, like, I like this.
1
SPEAKER_04
I like this.
1
SPEAKER_04
This is like this like shroud of mystery that shall never be penetrated.
1
SPEAKER_04
That should never be like- We ve got a book deal.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s coming.
1
SPEAKER_04
Obviously he left high school.
1
SPEAKER_04
He s not writing it.
1
SPEAKER_04
Okay, I ll do the Russian translation.
1
SPEAKER_04
Okay, so what are things that you enjoy that you remember from working with John Donner?
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I mean, you know, obviously he s considered one of the best coaches in the world.
1
SPEAKER_01
You know, very charismatic guy when you see him in person.
1
SPEAKER_01
You know, I pretty much was, you know, kind of raised in the DDS.
1
SPEAKER_01
You know, that s where I spent the majority of my time every day.
1
SPEAKER_01
So I obviously had very deep connections, you know, with John, my brother, Gary, you know, even Eddie Cummings and stuff back then.
1
SPEAKER_01
So obviously I miss interacting with those guys every day.
1
SPEAKER_01
And, you know, it s like they said, it s good to have somebody to kind of crack the whip at you every day.
1
SPEAKER_04
And John John was very good at that when you re like younger in your teenage years You can kind of you like have to get humbled right?
1
SPEAKER_01
There s like a process to that Yeah for sure and it s a pretty good room to get humbled in I guess yeah exactly I mean I I was I started training with them just when like everybody started to break out Gary was like the biggest name at the time and
1
SPEAKER_01
just because he had won ADCC trials already, and he had a crazy match with Kron, Kron Gracie at ADCC.
1
SPEAKER_01
But Eddie was just starting to break out, Gordon just started winning EBI, so I started training under John, you know, right when everything was exploding.
1
SPEAKER_01
What are the good things about life about Jiu-Jitsu you learned from your brother?
1
SPEAKER_01
Both me and my brother never really wanted to, you know, work a full-time job doing something that we hate.
1
SPEAKER_01
And he was always, you know, a very confident person.
1
SPEAKER_01
So he just went, you know, fully started pursuing jiu-jitsu.
1
SPEAKER_01
So I m very happy that, you know, he did that and I ended up following in his footsteps because you can ask these guys, I m a lazy sack of shit outside of the mat.
1
SPEAKER_01
So that s definitely one thing that I m very grateful for.
1
SPEAKER_04
that he paved the way, like you can make money doing the stuff you love.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, exactly.
1
SPEAKER_01
And he was a big reason why my parents eventually let me drop out of school because when they were coming up, there was no money in the sport.
1
SPEAKER_01
It was very hard to make a full living.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like if you wanted to actually make a living, you d eventually have to transfer to MMA.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I feel like Gordon and Gary and those guys were some of the first people to make a very good living off of just jiu-jitsu.
1
SPEAKER_04
At this party, you find it heartbreaking that you ve split up from DDS, but also from your brother in terms of spending time on the mat every day.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, for sure.
1
SPEAKER_01
You know, I mean, growing up, you know, obviously he s my big brother.
1
SPEAKER_01
I looked up to him a lot.
1
SPEAKER_01
So I definitely, like I said, I miss interacting with those guys.
1
SPEAKER_01
I was pretty much raised, you know, in that blue basement, you know, that John was like, you know, a father figure to me.
1
SPEAKER_01
So I definitely, you know, miss seeing those guys every day.
1
SPEAKER_04
Do you have animosity towards
2
SPEAKER_01
Gordon?
2
SPEAKER_01
And does he have animosity toward you?
2
SPEAKER_01
And what is the source of that?
2
SPEAKER_01
And do you think you ll ever be able to forgive each other?
2
SPEAKER_03
Definitely initially during the the initial split we definitely hated each other at the beginning But it s definitely started to to calm down actually just prior to you know all this social media drama.
2
SPEAKER_03
That s going on currently He had reached out to me, and I was literally like the first time that we have actually talked since Since the split happened, so we didn t talk to each other for was it now like almost two years and
2
SPEAKER_03
And that was the first time that, you know, we interacted again.
2
SPEAKER_03
And overall, you know, he wasn t, you know, aggressive towards me.
2
SPEAKER_03
I wasn t aggressive towards him.
2
SPEAKER_03
We were cracking some jokes.
2
SPEAKER_03
So hopefully the animosity is going down.
2
SPEAKER_01
There s this Godfather quote that I wrote down.
2
SPEAKER_01
I recently rewatched it from the Don, from Don Corleone, Vito Corleone.
2
SPEAKER_01
The strength of a family, like the strength of an army, lies in its loyalty to each other.
2
SPEAKER_01
Is there some aspect of family that you miss?
2
SPEAKER_01
Of the blood that kind of connects you that you can count on?
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, my parents, you know, they both raised us that, you know, like family is everything, you never, you know, betray your family or anything like that.
2
SPEAKER_03
So I definitely, you know, miss him from time to time.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay, imagine you re like 40 years from now, sitting on a porch with a shotgun, drinking whiskey, looking over like all the land you ve conquered.
2
SPEAKER_01
Looking back to this moment, is the reason you split up a bullshit reason?
2
SPEAKER_01
Or is it a good reason?
2
SPEAKER_01
From the perspective of the king who has now conquered the lands, have proven himself, have done everything.
2
SPEAKER_03
I think it was definitely like a justifiable reason for the team splitting.
2
SPEAKER_03
Like it just, with the way things were going, it just was not gonna work with, you know, all of us in the same room together.
2
SPEAKER_03
It started, you know, affecting training, people didn t feel comfortable and things.
2
SPEAKER_03
So I definitely think that it was a justifiable reason to split.
2
SPEAKER_01
things that happen in the jungle to be told about in the book.
2
SPEAKER_01
Is it going to be an audio book or is it just going to be... And who s going to voice it?
2
SPEAKER_00
Might be a play.
2
SPEAKER_01
A musical?
2
SPEAKER_01
On Broadway.
2
SPEAKER_01
How s your singing voice?
2
SPEAKER_01
Mine s not so good, but Nicky has a beautiful voice.
2
SPEAKER_01
Does he?
2
SPEAKER_01
Of an angel?
2
SPEAKER_01
I bet.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_01
Speaking of the social media drama, I should mention that I ve talked recently to Gordon a bunch.
2
SPEAKER_01
I ve talked to him about talking to you guys, and he s had nothing but really nice things to say about you, Nicky, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
And he has had nothing but bad things
2
SPEAKER_01
What was some of the things?
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, let s just go to the social media first.
2
SPEAKER_01
Because the social media stuff that he said publicly is just like a warm-up.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s like a foreplay, I guess.
2
SPEAKER_01
So Gordon sent you, Nicky Rod, flowers for Valentine s Day, posting on Instagram, quote, I ve been fucking him in every round and competition since we met in 2018.
2
SPEAKER_01
The least I can do is buy him flowers.
2
SPEAKER_00
We didn t get the flowers.
2
SPEAKER_00
That was the question.
2
SPEAKER_00
He sent it to the wrong address.
2
SPEAKER_01
He did?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
Where do you think he sent it?
2
SPEAKER_00
It was close, but it was wrong.
2
SPEAKER_01
Did you appreciate the romantic gesture?
2
SPEAKER_00
I did.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was looking forward to the flowers and potentially chocolates in there, but it was a bit of a letdown.
2
SPEAKER_00
Can you describe your recent match against Gordon, the EBI match?
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so ebi match on UFC fight paths.
2
SPEAKER_00
It was a 20 minute match and uh immediately, uh No match starts.
2
SPEAKER_00
I pull guard and then I stand up he pulls guard and we have this uh Kind of like back and forth where he s trying to dig for under hooks trying to get on top of me And he can t really find success Uh and out and and then in the midst of me trying to work my body lock pass uh going to be able to under hook leg and we end up in a
2
SPEAKER_00
leg entanglement, and then I m able to transfer that leg entanglement to a 50-50 position, still in the leg entanglement.
2
SPEAKER_00
From that 50-50 position, I m able to separate his feet and actually get a few pops, and he actually said I broke his foot in that exchange.
2
SPEAKER_00
With a toe hold.
2
SPEAKER_00
With a toe hold, yep.
2
SPEAKER_00
And after that, we had a bit more.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was just working on top positions, trying to get my body locked.
2
SPEAKER_00
Time runs out, and we go to overtime.
2
SPEAKER_01
And over time... Can you hold on a second?
2
SPEAKER_01
What does it mean to break a leg?
2
SPEAKER_01
I was very confused about... Is this like an expression or what do you mean?
2
SPEAKER_01
Which part breaks in a toehold?
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so in a toe hold, there s a few different grades of it.
2
SPEAKER_00
You could get a few pops and have some walking issues, and people consider that a break, and then you could break it fully and have your foot be like a limp noodle.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think what goes to Achilles?
2
SPEAKER_00
Is it the front of the Achilles or something?
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, probably the ligaments.
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, it s funny, a lot of people say they broke something, but to me, you break bones, you tear ligaments.
2
SPEAKER_02
So I would imagine you probably had a grade three tear.
2
SPEAKER_02
Grade three.
2
SPEAKER_01
How hard do you think is it to, I always wondered that with like a straight foot lock, how hard is it to break the shin or like the actual bones versus to tear stuff?
2
SPEAKER_01
Depends how many steroids they re on.
2
SPEAKER_00
And obviously how much you re on.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re one of the few guys that have actually broken bones in competition.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, have I?
2
SPEAKER_02
Oh yeah, Vinny.
2
SPEAKER_02
A couple, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
Which bone did you break?
2
SPEAKER_02
Spiral fracture of the fibula.
2
SPEAKER_02
Hmm.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s a lot of power right there.
2
SPEAKER_01
Is it like a twist thing?
2
SPEAKER_01
How did you break it?
2
SPEAKER_02
Oh, it was a heel hook.
2
SPEAKER_02
Vinny always used to say heel hooks don t work, leg locks don t work.
2
SPEAKER_02
But unfortunately, Age gets the best of all of us.
2
SPEAKER_02
I think he had some mileage on those ligaments.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
And the bone, I guess, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
So it s actually what the bone...
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, his ankle like disconnected from the tibia and the fibula, but the fibula definitely snouts pretty bad though.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s fascinating.
2
SPEAKER_01
The dynamics of that.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_01
Anyway, it went into overtime.
2
SPEAKER_01
What happened in overtime?
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
I ll have an overtime.
2
SPEAKER_00
Let s see.
2
SPEAKER_00
Trying to hang.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
I go defense first.
2
SPEAKER_00
Whistle blows.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m able to escape in like 17 seconds.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then immediately after I go on his back and he gets out in exactly 17 seconds, I m like,
2
SPEAKER_00
Alright, I thought I had a good start and then He gets on my back right after that and he s able to ride me out for pretty much the entire round After that he I go back on his back.
2
SPEAKER_00
He escapes and maybe like a minute and some change and
2
SPEAKER_00
I think where I went wrong in the overtime is I should have been less adamant about chasing the submission and more aware of collecting time.
2
SPEAKER_00
If I kind of diverted my attention towards acquiring time on the clock, it would have been more in my favor.
2
SPEAKER_00
But yeah, at the end of my overtime round, I m able to lock up a renegade choke over the face, but there just wasn t enough time to fully finish.
2
SPEAKER_00
I got a few seconds of squeeze in there.
2
SPEAKER_00
I didn t have enough time to adjust.
2
SPEAKER_02
Do you think if you re on steroids, you would have finished the choke?
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, for sure, for sure.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s what I thought too.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you re on gear, you re changing the biology of your body.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re adjusting your DNA.
2
SPEAKER_00
For sure, if I adjust in my DNA, I mean, it s a finish.
2
SPEAKER_00
So you re implying you re a natural athlete is what you re saying.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I m definitely a natural athlete, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Heavy implication.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so for people who don t know, the EBI rules, it s an interesting rule structure where over time you put yourself in the worst possible position and the task is to escape and the other person gets the same thing.
2
SPEAKER_01
What do you guys think about that rule set?
2
SPEAKER_00
I like it just because...
2
SPEAKER_00
First of all, I don t like the idea of having to put somebody on my back, but I do like the definitive answer in the match.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like either you escaped in time or you got, you know, ridden out.
2
SPEAKER_00
So the absolutely, like you have a, you get to define a winner, that s great.
2
SPEAKER_00
I d much rather have that than a close decision and it kind of goes the other way.
2
SPEAKER_02
What about you?
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, honestly, there s all the different rules.
2
SPEAKER_02
When I look at the rule sets, I just try to think of what rule set I could beat that individual in.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I sort of gear myself towards that.
2
SPEAKER_02
That s really the strategy there.
2
SPEAKER_02
I think there s some guys that stall a lot, that you would love to have EBR overtime, but at the end, they re stalling until they have to give us a good position.
2
SPEAKER_02
But then there s some guys that are so good in those positions, I m like, ooh, maybe we just do a regular match.
2
SPEAKER_02
What are the rules in the streets?
2
SPEAKER_02
The streets?
2
SPEAKER_01
No time limit.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that s one of it.
2
SPEAKER_01
There s also concrete and cars and stuff.
2
SPEAKER_01
Concrete, biting.
2
SPEAKER_01
Biting, yeah, poking.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so you don t like that rule set?
2
SPEAKER_01
Are there some people you would prefer in the street as a rule set?
2
SPEAKER_01
Me?
2
SPEAKER_01
Probably not.
2
SPEAKER_02
I don t know though, EBI.
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, it s tricky.
2
SPEAKER_02
It depends on the opponent, which rule set I d want to do.
2
SPEAKER_01
What about you, Nicker?
2
SPEAKER_01
What do you think about the rule set of EBI?
2
SPEAKER_03
Yes, I think EBI is very good from a spectator point of view.
2
SPEAKER_03
People find it very entertaining to watch because people want to see submissions.
2
SPEAKER_03
You re putting the athletes in a position where you have the highest percentage submission in the sport, so obviously you re going to get a lot of submissions.
2
SPEAKER_03
My issue with it is it is a rule set that allows somebody that s overall worse at jiu-jitsu to win a match.
2
SPEAKER_03
You know, a guy can go out there and just stall and just get completely dominated for the entirety of regulation, and then he gets to start on the guy s back.
2
SPEAKER_03
So that s my one issue with it.
2
SPEAKER_01
But also, I mean, isn t it interesting to see
2
SPEAKER_01
Like the best people in the world have to be put in a really bad position to see how good their escapes are, for example.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s interesting.
2
SPEAKER_01
But it doesn t feel realistic.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s a fun thing to watch, but it doesn t feel like the real fight.
2
SPEAKER_01
It feels weird.
2
SPEAKER_02
I ll claim it.
2
SPEAKER_02
If I start an overtime on someone and finish them, I ll claim it.
2
SPEAKER_02
But if they submit me an overtime, I m like, awesome.
2
SPEAKER_01
You re good to know, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s good.
2
SPEAKER_00
The issue is people like stalling to just win the overtime.
2
SPEAKER_00
So where you got this guy, his whole training camp is just not get subbed and win the overtime.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s a bit boring.
2
SPEAKER_01
By the way, I have a rose behind you.
2
SPEAKER_01
Somebody gave me a Valentine s flower.
2
SPEAKER_01
So if you missed the one from Gordon, I got one for you.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, I d appreciate that.
2
SPEAKER_01
Thank you.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s good to feel loved.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
All right.
2
SPEAKER_01
So what did you learn from that match?
2
SPEAKER_01
Like takeaways, technically speaking.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like what do you need to work on?
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, I learned that, uh, I am pretty good.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, pretty good.
2
SPEAKER_00
Uh, I gotta, you know, a few, I know exactly what my weakness is, you know, it s the, the leg lock department and I m doing, I m doing a lot, um, to, to, you know, get better in that specific aspect.
2
SPEAKER_00
Attack and defense?
2
SPEAKER_00
I would say, yeah, attack, defense, reattacks.
2
SPEAKER_00
Um, even if I wanted to offensively enter a leg, you know, I could use some work there as well.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I feel like once I solidify my, if I become a black belt specifically in the leg lock department, I feel like I d be unstoppable.
2
SPEAKER_01
If you, Nicky Rod, definitively beat Gordon Ryan, how would you do it?
2
SPEAKER_01
Buggy choke.
2
SPEAKER_01
Buggy choke.
2
SPEAKER_01
Buggy choke?
2
SPEAKER_01
For the listener, I don t even know how to describe buggy choke.
2
SPEAKER_01
What s the definitive conclusion on that choke?
2
SPEAKER_01
Does it work?
2
SPEAKER_01
It s a choke that you do when you re in a, what s the opposite of a dominant?
2
SPEAKER_01
It s not submissive.
2
SPEAKER_01
In a non-dominant position of bottom of side control.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, just an embarrassing submission to get caught with, really.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
But does it work?
2
SPEAKER_01
It works on certain people.
2
SPEAKER_01
For the listener, he glanced over at Nicki Minaj.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s embarrassing, but it s also a way to frustrate the opponent.
2
SPEAKER_02
For sure, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s a new part of the sport.
2
SPEAKER_02
I feel like the Rotolos brought it back into fashion, and
2
SPEAKER_02
Even if you don t get it, because it s one of those movies that s so embarrassing, at the first sign of danger, the top guy abandons ship, and you can basically retain guard by attempting a very embarrassing submission.
2
SPEAKER_02
So the threat of embarrassment.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, people pull out very quick to avoid.
2
SPEAKER_02
Suffering the consequences.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think some people underestimate how Good of a submission is I mean like once you re locked in there.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s not too many defenses for a buggy joke.
2
SPEAKER_00
I Did you is there an instructional on the way from you on the j-ride?
2
SPEAKER_01
Actually a little brother has one Oh, yeah, really you actually legit have
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, wow.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s awesome.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, check it out.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, there is, I mean, you re making a joke out of it, but it is a real, like, there s a system to it.
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
I don t know if we call it a system.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s a good man.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, you take an opponent that was just winning in a greatly dominant position, and then boom, in that same position, they re pretty much, they re losing.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, it s an interesting move.
2
SPEAKER_01
What s the name of the, what s the name of it?
2
SPEAKER_00
It s called a buggy PDM.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay, the Buggypedia.
2
SPEAKER_01
I thought there d be something very Craig Jones-y about it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay, awesome.
2
SPEAKER_01
I know you don t wanna sort of reveal the secrets of what you re working on, but in general, what does it take to beat Gordon, I guess, is the question.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so it would have to be some kind of a choke.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think any joint lock or anything like that, he s just gonna let it break and stay in the match.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I don t even think he d tap from a renegade choke.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think I would have to put him to sleep.
2
SPEAKER_00
So putting him to sleep is how I would win.
2
SPEAKER_01
So Gordon is somebody who really hates losing.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, like he won t even tap in the practice room.
2
SPEAKER_00
I remember like I had a toehold a couple of times in practice room and he was just comfortable like working there.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m like, I m not really putting much on it.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think he just, you know, maybe because of situations like that in practice, he kind of didn t respect my toeholds ability in competition.
2
SPEAKER_00
You ve done that to me in the practice.
2
SPEAKER_00
I have, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
I ll give you a little- Give me a little pop and then he let go.
2
SPEAKER_00
That was only 10% right there.
2
SPEAKER_02
Hey, don t get into math.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, is there some part of that you think is necessary to be a champion is to like this almost unwillingness and competition to tap I think it s definitely something to be said for people that are just like You know willing to go that extra miles or to take that damage to secure their their victory Is there part of you that like would hate to tap or hates the tap?
2
SPEAKER_00
I?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I mean all of me would hate that.
2
SPEAKER_00
The whole part of me.
2
SPEAKER_01
Isn t there a John Legend song like that?
2
SPEAKER_01
All of you and all of me?
2
SPEAKER_00
Very romantic, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, we re sticking on that theme.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay, I m sorry.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, one of the things, Gordon,
2
SPEAKER_01
I asked, I forget how you put it, because I think there s a lot of words that would need to be censored involved, but he said, ask them how it feels to have a zero five record against me with four submissions combined.
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, first of all, I wasn t sure he could count to five.
2
SPEAKER_02
That s an impressive thing.
2
SPEAKER_02
Oh, and five.
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I will say one thing.
2
SPEAKER_02
Nobody beats me four times.
2
SPEAKER_01
I love you so much, Greg.
2
SPEAKER_02
Lex, I did have a question.
2
SPEAKER_02
I did have a question for you.
2
SPEAKER_02
There was some controversy on your Twitter about a list of books.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I was wondering why Gordon s book wasn t featured amongst that literature.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, it was only the first 30 books, or the first 20 books, and it would, of course, be in the... Something interesting about Gordon, he s the first author that s written more books than he s read.
2
SPEAKER_01
Pretty good.
2
SPEAKER_01
If you face him and beat him, what s your take on what it takes to beat Gordon?
2
SPEAKER_01
You guys kind of joke and you go pretty hard recently on each other, but as a fan of jujitsu, I m all in on this rivalry.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s just fun to watch.
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, first of all, I don t think I go really hard with him.
2
SPEAKER_02
I think Gordon is
2
SPEAKER_02
He s pretty sensitive, you know what I mean?
2
SPEAKER_02
He s looking for a large insult in a small insult.
2
SPEAKER_02
And for me, like Australians, we just attack each other all day, every day.
2
SPEAKER_02
And for me, like if I see someone that takes himself very seriously,
2
SPEAKER_02
That s like blood in the water.
2
SPEAKER_02
That s funny to me.
2
SPEAKER_02
To me, if I can just gently provoke and get a strong reaction, that s hilarious.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like Aussies, we will just attack each other.
2
SPEAKER_02
And the first person that gets upset, he kind of loses the exchange.
2
SPEAKER_02
So I think that is very, very entertaining.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like if you were to beat Gordon, would the mental game off the mat be part of it?
2
SPEAKER_02
I think it would be a factor for sure, but I m never going to come out too crazy direct with him.
2
SPEAKER_02
I find that if you get too upset online and you re going crazy, I find that I d be embarrassed to do that myself.
2
SPEAKER_02
Obviously everyone s different, everyone has a different style, but I think the mental aspect
3
SPEAKER_02
would play a big factor.
3
SPEAKER_02
I mean, mainly, because if I were to beat him, I would send him a message every day until I died, just to gently remind him that I got the last one.
3
SPEAKER_02
The last one is all that matters.
3
SPEAKER_02
We re not giving score here.
3
SPEAKER_03
So once you beat him, you re going to run for the rest of your life?
3
SPEAKER_02
I mean, run, but look back.
3
SPEAKER_03
Look back above.
3
SPEAKER_03
With messages.
3
SPEAKER_03
A sidestep.
3
SPEAKER_03
Ride your horse into the sunset.
3
SPEAKER_03
Okay.
3
SPEAKER_03
Oh, by the way, you ve talked very lightly.
3
SPEAKER_03
You ve talked shit very lightly against Alexander Volkanovsky s opponent.
3
SPEAKER_03
Very lightly.
3
SPEAKER_03
Have you received death threats or how are you still alive?
3
SPEAKER_02
Like Gordon, I would say people from Dagestan take a joke very well.
3
SPEAKER_02
You know what I mean?
3
SPEAKER_02
Do they really?
3
SPEAKER_02
No.
3
SPEAKER_02
Oh, like, sorry, I m slow.
3
SPEAKER_03
I m going through aggressive mode in my head.
3
SPEAKER_02
Now, honestly, Islam was pretty cool.
3
SPEAKER_02
I wanted to stir it up a bit, you know, cause like, I felt like that was a massive fight and it probably should have had more attention.
3
SPEAKER_02
than it was receiving.
3
SPEAKER_02
So I wanted to just gently stir it up a bit.
3
SPEAKER_02
I feel like Sambo guys are in the same vein as catch wrestlers, very sensitive.
3
SPEAKER_02
You know, like obviously there s only three people in the world that do catch wrestling, Sambo, maybe 10 to 15.
3
SPEAKER_02
So I figured we could really provoke them with that sort of jujitsu Sambo stuff.
3
SPEAKER_02
Islam took the jokes very well.
3
SPEAKER_02
The Russian fans, not so much, are very serious.
3
SPEAKER_02
There s not many smiles in Russia, you know.
3
SPEAKER_02
They didn t take it as well.
3
SPEAKER_03
I m trying to suppress the anger that Rage is building up inside me, slowly.
3
SPEAKER_03
So you guys mentioned steroids.
3
SPEAKER_02
I like that you bring that up after we talk about Russia, for the record.
3
SPEAKER_02
Smooth, smooth segue there.
3
SPEAKER_03
I cannot condone the statements said by the Aussie, but I would love to travel with you to Russia.
3
SPEAKER_02
That would be a good time.
3
SPEAKER_02
You might get killed with me now.
3
SPEAKER_03
No, I would be the first to turn to backstab you.
3
SPEAKER_03
You re like, I got it, man, I got it.
3
SPEAKER_03
All right.
3
SPEAKER_03
Are most of the top grapplers on steroids?
3
SPEAKER_02
I mean, it s hard to say.
3
SPEAKER_02
You know, some people look like shit and they re on steroids.
3
SPEAKER_02
Some people look excellent and they re not on steroids.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s so, so hard to tell.
3
SPEAKER_03
That seems to be the general consensus that a lot of people on steroids.
3
SPEAKER_03
I m always a little bit, I don t know.
3
SPEAKER_03
So I ll be honest.
3
SPEAKER_03
I ve never.
3
SPEAKER_03
I ve never seen anyone take steroids, I ve never taken steroids, I don t even know if that s the right term to use, or like TRT, any of that.
3
SPEAKER_03
So I m very careful to not let my naivete lead me to take conclusions.
3
SPEAKER_03
But I do feel a little bit weird about the witch hunt nature of it, that some people a little bit too eagerly claim that others are on steroids just because they re successful.
3
SPEAKER_03
But at the same time, it does seem that a lot of athletes will do whatever it takes to be successful.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I mean, if a sport doesn t test, you ve got to assume most people are going to do it.
3
SPEAKER_02
And especially now, as more money comes into the sport, you ve got to assume more people are going to do it, you know?
3
SPEAKER_03
Generally, like, do AGCC and, like, does Jiu-Jitsu test?
3
SPEAKER_03
It s actually encouraged.
3
SPEAKER_03
What s encouraged?
3
SPEAKER_03
You get a pamphlet, okay.
3
SPEAKER_03
They don t test, there s no testing?
3
SPEAKER_02
They test to make sure we re on steroids, because obviously it s a big show for the UFC, 5 Plus, in the future.
3
SPEAKER_02
They don t want anyone coming in out of shape.
3
SPEAKER_03
Very nice.
3
SPEAKER_03
Do you think using steroids in that kind of context in sports is wrong?
3
SPEAKER_03
Like stepping away, if it s not illegal.
3
SPEAKER_03
Do you think ethically speaking?
3
SPEAKER_02
I like to assume everyone s on steroids, so I don t have to feel bad about using steroids myself.
3
SPEAKER_03
Do you use all of the steroids?
3
SPEAKER_02
I m over 30, it s TRD, you know, that s the medical definition.
3
SPEAKER_03
That s the medical, okay.
3
SPEAKER_03
I d like to meet your doctor.
3
SPEAKER_02
Therapeutic use, you know.
3
SPEAKER_03
Therapeutic, right.
3
SPEAKER_02
Like, how do you just feel about it?
3
SPEAKER_02
I mean, it is cheating, for sure.
3
SPEAKER_02
Whether they test for it or not, I think it is cheating.
3
SPEAKER_02
Obviously, some people are going to say, oh, fuck, everyone s on it.
3
SPEAKER_02
I should be able to get away with it.
3
SPEAKER_02
Makes it even playing field.
3
SPEAKER_02
But it kind of becomes Russian roulette, because it s like, if one guy is taking a small amount, and the other guy
3
SPEAKER_02
is taking a huge amount, he s gonna reap huge rewards in the short term, probably be dead pretty early, but die a champion, mind you, you know what I mean?
3
SPEAKER_02
So it s like, I don t know what that one is.
3
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, what do you think about that?
3
SPEAKER_03
Do you think it s worthy to take health risks just for the glory?
3
SPEAKER_02
I think if you re 40 about to die looking at a cabinet of gold medals for wrestling other men, it s probably not gonna hit the same way on your deathbed, you know?
3
SPEAKER_03
What, sorry, in which direction?
3
SPEAKER_03
Like, is that a good thing or not?
3
SPEAKER_02
No, you re probably gonna feel like, oh fuck, I probably wasted a bit of health on that, you know?
3
SPEAKER_02
You think so?
3
SPEAKER_03
Isn t that like the glory of it?
3
SPEAKER_03
Like you said, other men, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_03
Well, I mean, in my opinion, I may be the rest of a woman as well.
3
SPEAKER_03
What d you do with Gabby on Valentine s Day?
3
SPEAKER_03
What did you take her?
3
SPEAKER_02
We filmed some new stuff for OnlyFans.
3
SPEAKER_02
For OnlyFans.
3
SPEAKER_02
We never stopped working.
3
SPEAKER_03
Says the love affair is also a work affair.
3
SPEAKER_03
Okay.
3
SPEAKER_03
I don t know.
3
SPEAKER_03
There s something to that.
3
SPEAKER_03
I mean, like Olympic gold medalists accomplishing the heights, sacrificing everything, everything, the first 20, 30 years of your life for this silly little piece of metal.
3
SPEAKER_03
I think there s something beautiful to that that conspires a lot, a lot of people.
3
SPEAKER_03
And that s like,
3
SPEAKER_03
the height of the human condition in a way.
3
SPEAKER_02
What if you survive?
3
SPEAKER_02
I m just saying if you re in your deathbed early in life.
3
SPEAKER_03
We all die.
3
SPEAKER_03
All men die, but not all men truly live.
3
SPEAKER_02
How many years are you willing to shave off for a gold medal?
3
SPEAKER_03
That s a good question.
3
SPEAKER_03
How many?
3
SPEAKER_03
How many are you willing to shave off for a gold medal?
3
SPEAKER_03
For a silver medal?
3
SPEAKER_02
I mean, for a silver medal, I d shave a few off.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think two silvers makes a gold.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s worth five years?
3
SPEAKER_02
five to 10 maybe, shave off the bad years, enhance the good ones, you know?
3
SPEAKER_03
Well, I mean, you ve sacrificed.
3
SPEAKER_03
You guys sacrificed a lot, a lot of your life.
3
SPEAKER_01
You continue to sacrifice.
3
SPEAKER_01
You don t see it as sacrifice.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s fun.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think training s fun, being a bit adamant about it, consistent, gives you, I mean, I think we have a great routine, great ritual.
3
SPEAKER_01
Definitely enjoy the process.
3
SPEAKER_03
All right, well, do you guys know, this is bro science, or I m talking bro scientists, but do you know how long steroids stay in your system?
3
SPEAKER_03
Forever?
3
SPEAKER_03
Forever?
3
SPEAKER_03
Oh, because it s like, hey, once you do it, you own it.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_03
Just the knowledge.
3
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, all right.
3
SPEAKER_02
I think it s different for each steroid, right?
3
SPEAKER_02
I think some of them last longer than others.
3
SPEAKER_02
Depends if it s a urine.
3
SPEAKER_03
You would think I would do a little research before asking these questions.
3
SPEAKER_03
Why do you think most athletes and coaches don t talk about steroids?
3
SPEAKER_03
Like, why is it such a secret?
3
SPEAKER_03
Why is it so embarrassing?
3
SPEAKER_01
I think they probably talk about it like amongst the team and whatnot.
3
SPEAKER_01
Again, I mean, it s going to be more shady if it s like your sport is tested or not.
3
SPEAKER_01
We re kind of in the wild west in the grappling world, you know?
3
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, but why don t grapplers talk about it?
3
SPEAKER_03
Because it seems cheating.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it s kind of insinuated as a bit of cheating, even if it s not like, if it s not tested, I mean, still, you re taking a person that could, you know, maybe has good jiu-jitsu, good mechanics, you re putting them on the leg, and they re subbing with a heel hook versus breaking your leg with a heel hook.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, something as subtle as that can make, you know, big differences.
3
SPEAKER_03
All right, this is gonna make me sound dumb, but is it possible that steroids are not a huge help in grappling?
3
SPEAKER_01
I think if you re bad at jiu-jitsu and you do steroids, you re gonna continue to be bad at jiu-jitsu.
3
SPEAKER_01
But if you re great at gear, I m sorry, if you re great at grappling, if you re great at grappling and then you also do gear, it s gonna enhance what you re already good at and make you much better.
3
SPEAKER_01
But how much is the enhancement, I guess is the question.
3
SPEAKER_01
How much is muscle valued?
3
SPEAKER_01
That s the question.
3
SPEAKER_01
If you re doing gear and you re not changing weight that much, maybe it helps you a little bit, but if you re gaining 50, 60 pounds of pure muscle and it s like,
3
SPEAKER_01
That s a huge enhancement, that s another human.
3
SPEAKER_03
Does muscle, a small human, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_03
Does muscle matter in jiu-jitsu?
3
SPEAKER_03
I guess is the question.
3
SPEAKER_03
Is it possible that it gets in the way?
3
SPEAKER_01
I d say muscle matters, but technique matters more.
3
SPEAKER_00
I also think that it ll help you develop technique as well, because, obviously, testosterone helps with recovery rate, so if you re on gear, you re able to train a lot more.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now, that being said, if you re not able to learn, obviously, it s not gonna help in that aspect, but if you re somebody that knows how to learn and get good at jiu-jitsu, and then you add gear on top of that, you re able to do significantly more sessions throughout the week.
3
SPEAKER_03
Okay, and by the way, gears, steroids?
3
SPEAKER_03
Steroids, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
I also think that you don t have to be as consistent in like your sleep and your food and stuff.
3
SPEAKER_01
If you re on gear, you have a little bit of leeway.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I mean, being consistent in your diet and your sleep definitely would help the process.
3
SPEAKER_03
Since you use most steroids of any athlete I ve ever met, do you think steroids help jiu-jitsu?
3
SPEAKER_02
I think obviously it helps recovery and your ability to train more but I ve seen some guys go on steroids and then suddenly they feel like the Incredible Hulk and now in the training room they start to rely more on strength than the techniques they had and actually in some respect hinders them and makes them gas more in competition because then they re using more of the muscle they never used to have.
3
SPEAKER_03
So you ve implied that you re a natural athlete.
3
SPEAKER_02
You said that skeptically.
3
SPEAKER_02
Why are you skeptical, Lex?
3
SPEAKER_03
Is this something you do for social media, to talk shit to Gordon, to imply that he s not a natural athlete?
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, I only, pretty much recently on social media, I had this rebuttal saying that Gordon s on gear, and I only said that because after our match, our most recent match, the EBI rules match,
3
SPEAKER_01
He accused me of greasing, which is like lubing up so I m slippery during our match.
3
SPEAKER_01
And you did not?
3
SPEAKER_01
I did not.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was checked multiple times before and after our grappling event.
3
SPEAKER_01
And he still, you know, went out and accused me of this.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I was like, all right, as opposed to telling a lie, I ll just tell the truth about, you know, your steroid use, which it shouldn t be that big of a deal in retrospect, because he kind of admitted it and whatnot previously.
3
SPEAKER_01
Um, so it s, uh, yeah, I just kind of felt like I had to rebuttal and I, I didn t do it immediately.
3
SPEAKER_01
Cause I was like, all right, I ll, I know I have this podcast plan, so I ll wait to do it on, you know, my friend, uh, Mark Bell s podcast, you know, be a little more, more, get a little bit more exposure on it.
3
SPEAKER_01
And, uh, yeah, I knew he was gonna bite the bait, but I didn t think it was gonna, you know, bite the bait that hard.
3
SPEAKER_01
I, I know he s a little stressed out about, about the comment, but you know.
3
SPEAKER_03
And that was the origin of you guys going back and forth on-?
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, it wasn t so much back and forth.
3
SPEAKER_01
It was just, I went forth and then he kept going back, back, back.
3
SPEAKER_01
I remember one of my guys DMed me and they were like, Gordon s made like 68 Instagram stories and 67 of them were all about you.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was like, all right, well, I m in his head for sure.
3
SPEAKER_01
Got us a few followers, we appreciate that.
3
SPEAKER_01
We did, we did get followers.
3
SPEAKER_01
He even shouted out our B-team white belt program, so thank you.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_03
Okay, speaking of which, what s the B team?
3
SPEAKER_03
How s it run?
3
SPEAKER_03
And why is it called the B-team?
3
SPEAKER_01
Was the A-team taken?
3
SPEAKER_01
For me, B s for best.
3
SPEAKER_03
Okay, best.
3
SPEAKER_03
All right, what does B stand for for you?
3
SPEAKER_03
What does it represent?
3
SPEAKER_03
What is the ideal Miyamoto Musashi philosophical foundation of B-team?
3
SPEAKER_03
Aim low and achieve.
3
SPEAKER_03
If the bar is set low, you can t help but win, okay?
3
SPEAKER_02
That s Nikki s philosophy with women as well.
3
SPEAKER_02
Set the bar incredibly low, overachieve.
3
SPEAKER_03
So what is the B team?
3
SPEAKER_03
How do you guys run it?
3
SPEAKER_03
Can you just talk about the school, how you found it, what s it like?
3
SPEAKER_02
I mean, pretty much just a regular Jiu-Jitsu gym.
3
SPEAKER_02
We started as sort of a pros only, purple belt and above team.
3
SPEAKER_02
And we have me, Nicky Rod, Nicky Ryan, Ethan, Damien as coaches.
3
SPEAKER_02
Am I missing someone?
3
SPEAKER_02
Your memory is your old age impeccable memory.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and we got JB come on to teach wipeouts, but just your stock standard Jiu-jitsu team we focus on More we lean heavily towards the professional athlete side of things.
3
SPEAKER_02
We have a lot of high-level guys in there Yeah class structure a regular instruction and positional sparring open rounds, but we sort of took a
3
SPEAKER_02
A heavy slant on marketing side of things.
3
SPEAKER_02
We really try to blow up the YouTube channel.
3
SPEAKER_02
Obviously, we sell a lot of clothing, merchandise, and stuff.
3
SPEAKER_02
So yeah, we just sort of took a modern approach to a standard jiu-jitsu gym.
3
SPEAKER_02
Because I mean, jiu-jitsu gyms are full of some of the most boring human beings on earth.
3
SPEAKER_02
So we try to highlight.
3
SPEAKER_02
Strong words, Gideon.
3
SPEAKER_02
Highlight the other side of things, you know, keep it pretty light hearted.
3
SPEAKER_02
That it can be fun.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, that you just, it can be fun.
3
SPEAKER_02
I guess that it can be cool too.
3
SPEAKER_02
You know, it s not just full of steroided up autistic people, you know.
3
SPEAKER_03
Question from Reddit.
3
SPEAKER_03
Quote, need to hear some of the stories about drop-ins that led to the making of the gem of a video, the do s and don ts of training a beat team.
3
SPEAKER_03
Any fun stories?
3
SPEAKER_02
And he wants to stand out.
3
SPEAKER_02
Do you guys remember any?
3
SPEAKER_02
Police involved ever?
3
SPEAKER_02
We had a guy come over to kick him out.
3
SPEAKER_02
He was stalking two of the members.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, well, I mean, that s just crazy, people.
3
SPEAKER_02
You know, like, I portray a pretty insane image online.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I guess I am that a lot of the time.
3
SPEAKER_02
But at training, try to keep it while training.
3
SPEAKER_02
Around training, I m insulting everyone.
3
SPEAKER_02
But while training, I try to keep it pretty serious.
3
SPEAKER_02
But obviously, the image I portray lures in some of the crazier members.
3
SPEAKER_03
I mean, the thing is about the gym you guys run is really professional.
3
SPEAKER_03
It s friendly.
3
SPEAKER_03
The lighthearted joking is there, obviously, like shit talk and all that kind of stuff.
3
SPEAKER_03
But it s a pretty safe environment.
3
SPEAKER_03
But the public persona might attract some.
3
SPEAKER_02
Some maniacs.
3
SPEAKER_02
I won t say which places I ve trained at, but obviously some places you walk into the room and it s very, very serious.
3
SPEAKER_02
There s no smiles around.
3
SPEAKER_02
Obviously it s probably the average training room in Russia, but no smiles, very serious environment.
3
SPEAKER_02
You know what I mean?
3
SPEAKER_02
And I definitely don t like that.
3
SPEAKER_02
I don t want to show up to training and be walking on eggshells, not know what the coach s mood s like that day.
3
SPEAKER_02
I want to go in and have a good time.
3
SPEAKER_02
Keep it lighthearted.
3
SPEAKER_03
What was in the video?
3
SPEAKER_03
What are the do s and don ts?
3
SPEAKER_03
Because the address is public.
3
SPEAKER_03
Anyone can show up.
3
SPEAKER_02
Anyone can show up, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_02
What were the do s and don ts?
3
SPEAKER_03
Does anyone challenge you to a fight?
3
SPEAKER_02
Not yet.
3
SPEAKER_02
Not yet.
3
SPEAKER_02
I mean, probably from other gyms in town, that s probably coming down the line.
3
SPEAKER_02
But do s and don ts.
3
SPEAKER_03
I m all in on that.
3
SPEAKER_03
I would be excited as a fan to just watch.
3
SPEAKER_03
The love of the drama.
3
SPEAKER_03
Not the drama.
3
SPEAKER_03
No, no, no.
3
SPEAKER_03
A little drama, a little drop of poison is good, but ultimately it s the best grapplers in the world kind of going at it, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, it s fun.
3
SPEAKER_03
Because maybe I m wrong, but I think there is an underlying deep camaraderie at the end of the day when you re like at the top of the world and you re like in the same town.
3
SPEAKER_02
What could possibly go wrong?
3
SPEAKER_03
It s like a shitty Western, but like an epic Western, where like Clint Eastwood liked the good, the bad, and the ugly.
3
SPEAKER_03
Of course I love it.
3
SPEAKER_03
I m here just eating popcorn like that.
3
SPEAKER_02
Staring the pot.
3
SPEAKER_02
I m not staring the pot, I m not staring the pot.
3
SPEAKER_02
These questions are from Reddit, they re not from people.
3
SPEAKER_02
That one for sure.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I mean what could possibly go wrong if you re the world s best grappler, hates you, and you re gently provoking him behind the scenes every day, what I mean.
3
SPEAKER_02
For sure, in Texas.
3
SPEAKER_02
And you ve stolen his brother, held him for ransom.
3
SPEAKER_03
Kidnap.
3
SPEAKER_03
It is like a story of a shitty western, I think.
3
SPEAKER_03
You now allow white belts to train with you.
3
SPEAKER_03
What s it like to open it up to a bigger audience?
3
SPEAKER_02
Uh, we haven t opened it up yet, but it ll be interesting to see.
3
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I, I feel like your higher belts, they really understand what the training room is.
3
SPEAKER_02
You know what I mean?
3
SPEAKER_02
White belts early, they re trying to find their place in the gym.
3
SPEAKER_02
Could be kind of awkward and stuff in that environment.
3
SPEAKER_02
So I think obviously those white belts coming in will change the dynamic, but the white belts will have a separate white belt classes obviously for them.
3
SPEAKER_02
Cause given it s such a high level gym, it d be tough for a beginner to be able to enter.
3
SPEAKER_02
the more advanced classes.
3
SPEAKER_02
Obviously, we re teaching more advanced techniques.
3
SPEAKER_02
So yeah, we ve separated a white belt program, I believe 6 p.m.
3
SPEAKER_02
on the Friday.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, maybe we ll have a Saturday one as well, but it ll be interesting to see how it goes.
3
SPEAKER_02
We re trying to do things different, you know, like trying to do your traditional jiu-jitsu gyms.
3
SPEAKER_02
Obviously, you re not going to teach beginners wrestling at all.
3
SPEAKER_02
We re trying to split it at least 33% top game,
4
SPEAKER_01
and bottom game and wrestling, so at least create more well-rounded athletes from day one.
4
SPEAKER_01
Whereas I feel like most traditional jiu-jitsu gyms might have no gi once a week, they don t touch wrestling, very IBJJF-heavy techniques, but again, the sport s changing for sure.
4
SPEAKER_02
Just to take that on, how does a beginner get good at jiu-jitsu?
4
SPEAKER_02
Like, given that you re starting this white belt, what s your philosophy on that?
4
SPEAKER_02
Obviously, buy all of my instructionals at full price, not during a sale.
4
SPEAKER_02
That would go a long way.
4
SPEAKER_02
For those of you who are Russians, I ll send you instructions
4
SPEAKER_02
Or all the forms so you know how to steal it.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, discount code.
4
SPEAKER_02
I ll share.
4
SPEAKER_02
I bought them all, so I ll just send it to you for free.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, we do have the Makachev50 discount code, you know?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
Offering discounts to help him out for the rematch.
4
SPEAKER_01
I got the... Nice.
4
SPEAKER_02
The Makachev50 discount.
4
SPEAKER_02
Well, I got a 100% discount for you if you need it.
4
SPEAKER_02
But that said, your instructional are both hilarious and brilliant, and it s one of the most respected instructionals out there.
4
SPEAKER_02
Oh, thank you.
4
SPEAKER_02
With incredibly great names.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it probably loses me sales, honestly, due to removing the seriousness.
4
SPEAKER_02
Because they think it s going to kind of suck, it s going to be some funny gimmicky thing?
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, I mean, some people don t even know if it s a real product.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s a big hurdle I have to overcome as they see it.
4
SPEAKER_01
And they re like, is that a real thing?
4
SPEAKER_01
That s a problem.
4
SPEAKER_01
But how does the white belt get good?
4
SPEAKER_01
I think they just have to show up, just have to put in the effort, try to focus on using techniques and training rather than just fighting to the death, you know?
4
SPEAKER_01
Although that is entertaining for us to watch, to go out there and fight to the death.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, but what are the techniques you should focus on?
4
SPEAKER_02
What s the process?
4
SPEAKER_02
What does it mean to show up?
4
SPEAKER_02
How much drilling?
4
SPEAKER_02
All that kind of stuff.
4
SPEAKER_02
If you were to optimize the first six months of a beginner, there s a lot of people who would listen to this and haven t tried, they ve been curious.
4
SPEAKER_02
I have a lot of friends who haven t, who are just too curious.
4
SPEAKER_02
They re constantly looking for an excuse to start.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think it s just got to be as simple as possible.
4
SPEAKER_01
We shouldn t be teaching more advanced movements.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, obviously, in the grand scheme of things, there s highly advanced techniques, and then there s slightly advanced.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I think trying to teach those guys real specific positions, even, like real specific types of guard is just beyond them.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think the best way to learn is through problem solving.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I think if you show the technique before they ve discovered that problem,
4
SPEAKER_01
the learning is sort of held back.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I like the idea of using kids  style games to show them a problem and then use the techniques to fix the problems they ve just discovered.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think that s the best way to learn.
4
SPEAKER_01
Can you give an example of a problem to show them before you give them the techniques?
4
SPEAKER_01
Like what are we talking about?
4
SPEAKER_01
So say you wanted to teach posture in wrestling.
4
SPEAKER_01
you could create a game where one guy, the game might be get to a leg or get to two legs, control the leg, like super simple.
4
SPEAKER_01
But the rules, the constraint would be one guy is forced to keep an upright posture and one guy is forced, well not forced, but he s allowed to keep a bent at the hips, lower posture.
4
SPEAKER_01
And obviously within that constraint,
4
SPEAKER_01
The guy with the better posture is going to have more success.
4
SPEAKER_01
He s gonna have a better posture to secure a leg or secure both legs.
4
SPEAKER_01
And therefore you ve demonstrated the flaws of bad posture without having to explain it to them before they really tested that out.
4
SPEAKER_01
Okay, and then the result of that, you would realize that the bent over posture is better.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you have that aha moment rather than just having it spoken to you.
4
SPEAKER_02
You wrote, Craig, I m a big fan of constraint-based learning, I guess is what you re talking about.
4
SPEAKER_02
I love presenting beginners with a problem before the solution, like here, attempt to hold side control with no cues on how.
4
SPEAKER_02
Then I see how the guy,
4
SPEAKER_02
got out and address issue by issue, cross face and hip control and so on.
4
SPEAKER_02
Okay, so what are some other examples like side control?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that would be an excellent one, side control.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like obviously we say, oh, you secure a cross face so they can t turn into you.
4
SPEAKER_01
Much easier to have them try to hold someone down without explaining what a cross face is and then use
4
SPEAKER_01
that technique to address the problem they ve just encountered.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I think you could do that with a lot of areas of jiu-jitsu, like even more advanced, say 50-50, obviously a mirrored position where you both have access to each other s heels.
4
SPEAKER_01
Most people will stall out in that position and keep their feet crossed.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think a great constraint for both of them, you can t cross your feet.
4
SPEAKER_01
Now you have to learn how to slip the heel hook on the exposer and how to safely re-attack of your own.
4
SPEAKER_01
So the constraint is you can t be too defensive in that position.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I think the rate of learning increases.
4
SPEAKER_01
Why do you think the rate of learning increases?
4
SPEAKER_01
Like, why do you think that works?
4
SPEAKER_01
As you encounter more problems, say in that situation, they re going to get your heel a lot more in whatever period of time you allocate the drill for than if the legs are crossed.
4
SPEAKER_01
I don t think the hard part is splitting the legs to get to the submission.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think the hard part is practicing control while they re trying to slip it at a later stage and then obviously trying to slip your heel when you re in more danger.
4
SPEAKER_01
It also makes you more comfortable in that bad position if you re used to doing it with open legs.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I think that probably that style of teaching forces people to focus on, this is so easy to fall into focusing on like memorizing a particular details of a technique without thinking like, why the hell does this even work?
4
SPEAKER_02
And if you don t have that, you get to focus on like, from like, as cliche as it sounds, from first principles, like why the hell, how the hell do I get out of this?
4
SPEAKER_02
Like, why does this even work?
4
SPEAKER_02
Why does wrestling work?
4
SPEAKER_02
Why do you have a bent over posture?
4
SPEAKER_02
You get to like start to ask those kinds of questions.
4
SPEAKER_02
Which is kind of interesting because it s not obvious to me that bent over posture is the right posture for Jiu-Jitsu, right?
4
SPEAKER_02
I m confused actually about that.
4
SPEAKER_02
I don t know.
4
SPEAKER_02
About the correct posture?
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, for Jiu-Jitsu.
4
SPEAKER_02
What s the right answer?
4
SPEAKER_01
I think bent over posture is still good for Jiu-Jitsu.
4
SPEAKER_02
Even with the Judo and all that?
4
SPEAKER_02
Why are so many Jiu-Jitsu people at a high level, the posture is higher up?
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, I think wrestling posture is just a bit too low because it s not necessary, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
If wrestlers are low enough to the ground where your hands could touch the mat.
4
SPEAKER_00
But in jujitsu, it s kind of a mix between wrestling and judo or Greco-Roman wrestling.
4
SPEAKER_00
So I think it s just a bit more laxed and it s bent over, but it s not upright and it s also not super low.
4
SPEAKER_01
A bit more room for error too because obviously
4
SPEAKER_01
a jiu-jitsu guy s shot isn t gonna be as athletic or as quick as a wrestler s, especially a wrestler with shoes.
4
SPEAKER_02
So it actually comes down to the fact that jiu-jitsu people, just on average, even at the top level, are not good at shooting.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think so, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think, obviously, I mean, all the wrestlers in American stuff, they re starting super early, super young, you know what I mean?
4
SPEAKER_01
By the time they get to the same age we are, really, in our sport and stuff, they ve spent much longer doing the actual sport than the average jiu-jitsu guy.
4
SPEAKER_02
And then there s another level of wrestling, of course, with the Soviet bloc.
4
SPEAKER_02
That s just unachievable for your kind.
4
SPEAKER_01
Who knew an Australian rugby, a former rugby player.
4
SPEAKER_02
Rugby, is that kind of like American football, but much less money?
4
SPEAKER_02
Is that what that is?
4
SPEAKER_01
Much less money, much tougher, I would say.
4
SPEAKER_01
But who knew that the cure to the Dagestani wrestling were the Aussies?
4
SPEAKER_02
with the Aussies?
4
SPEAKER_02
Okay, let s go there.
4
SPEAKER_02
Your friend, your training partner, Alexander Volkanovsky, you helped him prepare for the Islam Makachev versus Volkanovsky fight.
4
SPEAKER_02
Who do you think, first of all, won that fight?
4
SPEAKER_01
That s a tricky one.
4
SPEAKER_02
How is that the tricky question?
4
SPEAKER_02
All the shit talk you ve been doing, how is that the tricky question?
4
SPEAKER_01
When I was in the corner going into the fifth, I personally believed live that Volkanovsky probably needed a finish to take the victory.
4
SPEAKER_02
But you have to think that way, right, in general?
4
SPEAKER_02
Or are you legitimately?
4
SPEAKER_01
It s a gray area, because the judging, who knows?
4
SPEAKER_01
Plus, I was like, wait, we re in Australia, where s this bias?
4
SPEAKER_01
We ve got some Australian judges here.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was really hoping we d get a bit of bias on that.
4
SPEAKER_01
Unfortunately not.
4
SPEAKER_01
Hopefully they lose their jobs.
4
SPEAKER_01
Again, yeah, it was a close one.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think sometimes you re blinded in the moment because again, everyone counted Volkanovsky out, the crowd s behind him, so everything he does is going to get a huge cheer.
4
SPEAKER_01
You re biased towards the smaller guy, you re biased towards the underdog, so you sort of, whatever the underdog does,
4
SPEAKER_01
has a bigger impact in your mind, and sometimes that can bias as the fight goes along.
4
SPEAKER_01
But yeah, super, super close fight.
4
SPEAKER_01
I would really love them to have a rematch, but obviously that s gonna hold up both divisions, so I don t know if they ll be able to do it.
4
SPEAKER_01
Do you think they ll do a rematch soon?
4
SPEAKER_02
I mean, that was an epic fight.
4
SPEAKER_02
I was listening to the Fight Companion during it.
4
SPEAKER_02
They all thought- And so they biased strongly the opinion?
4
SPEAKER_02
Round two was the tricky one.
4
SPEAKER_01
Round two s the tricky one.
4
SPEAKER_02
Anyway, I d love to see that, like, run it back and do three, actually.
4
SPEAKER_02
It was an epic fight.
4
SPEAKER_02
What was the brief conversation you had with Islam Makhachev and his team?
4
SPEAKER_01
I didn t know how he would take the joke, because obviously Khabib tried to flying eagle kick Dylan Danis in the face.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I wasn t sure how my humor would go.
4
SPEAKER_01
But, I mean, Dylan must have said some worse things to me.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was just...
4
SPEAKER_01
playing around.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, you can t really take anything I say serious, come across like an idiot.
4
SPEAKER_01
So when he was coming up to me afterwards, I was like, oh, I don t know what he s going to say.
4
SPEAKER_01
And again, maybe he would have been more upset if he had lost, but he just received the judge s decision.
4
SPEAKER_01
But he came up, I went to check his hand, he gave me a big hug and then pretended to throw me.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then I thought the interaction was over and then he circled back.
4
SPEAKER_01
So that s why it was so awkward.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was like, oh, he s coming back.
4
SPEAKER_01
He wants to say, he wants something else.
4
SPEAKER_01
But he just said, why didn t you teach your boy how to escape the body triangle?
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, wow, interesting.
4
SPEAKER_01
What did you say to that?
4
SPEAKER_01
I said, well, I mean, obviously you ve got to learn how to finish a rear naked choke.
4
SPEAKER_01
Is that what you said?
4
SPEAKER_01
No, I didn t say that.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was laughing.
4
SPEAKER_01
But then they ushered us out.
4
SPEAKER_01
They were like, get out of here before the Aussie crowd attacks here, you know?
4
SPEAKER_02
What do you think about the body triangle position they were in?
4
SPEAKER_02
It seemed like for the first time, it seems almost like Volk was dominant in that position, which is kind of weird.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, damage is meant to trump control.
4
SPEAKER_01
MMA judging.
4
SPEAKER_01
Damage is the number one factor.
4
SPEAKER_02
Do you think the judges saw that?
4
SPEAKER_01
What did they score that as?
4
SPEAKER_01
I think they all scored four towards Islam.
4
SPEAKER_01
Three and five, two of the judges scored towards Volks.
4
SPEAKER_01
One of the judges scored three for Islam.
4
SPEAKER_01
It was 49-46 for one of them, and the other ones were 48-47.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think that, again, the confusing round was round two.
4
SPEAKER_01
I don t think anyone scored the body triangle round for Volks, which I wish they had.
4
SPEAKER_01
Volkanovsky was and is still arguably pound-for-pound greatest fighter in the world.
4
SPEAKER_02
How long have you known him?
4
SPEAKER_01
I don t know the first I met him before he was in the UFC when I used to live in Melbourne He came down to train at Absolute.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and then we really connected on Ultima fighter He one of these guys who s gonna bring told him a fighter Brad Burdell pulled out last second
4
SPEAKER_01
So he called me when I was in Puerto Rico and he s like, do you want to coach on tough for five weeks?
4
SPEAKER_01
And like I said, Puerto Rico was apocalypse now.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was like, yeah, get me out of here.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I took, jumped on that opportunity and we were in Vegas five weeks together.
4
SPEAKER_01
Cause he was meant to fight Ortega and then he got hit with COVID real bad.
4
SPEAKER_01
I got stuck in, I think he was in hospital for maybe one to two weeks.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then before he flew back to Australia, they were like, all right, maybe we just do you guys as the ultimate fighter coaches.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I jumped on board with that.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that s really when we ve become close.
4
SPEAKER_01
Obviously I was useful in the Ortega fight, helping him get out of submissions.
4
SPEAKER_01
He fought then Korean zombie Max Holloway.
4
SPEAKER_01
I basically just held the bucket at that point in the corner, a couple of striking fights.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then again, yeah, we had to tackle the Islam problem.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I did spend five to six weeks down there preparing for that.
4
SPEAKER_02
How did you tackle the Islam problem?
4
SPEAKER_02
How did I tackle it?
4
SPEAKER_02
Was it you, somebody who barely knows anything about wrestling, having to help?
4
SPEAKER_01
Obviously it doesn t take much, you know, especially Russian wrestling.
4
SPEAKER_02
Did the beard help or like what?
4
SPEAKER_02
In all seriousness, what were some of the key ideas that you worked on with Volkanovsky to prepare for it?
4
SPEAKER_01
I had the help of Frank Hickman.
4
SPEAKER_01
Hickman was down there too, one of the Hickman brothers wrestling coach.
4
SPEAKER_01
So we were sort of like problem solving.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I mean, basically we were confident in Volk s fence wrestling, his cage work.
4
SPEAKER_01
He s super good on the cage, super like,
4
SPEAKER_01
under-respected in that position.
4
SPEAKER_01
And we knew that if you re able to take the scrambles to the cage, he would be effective against Islam.
4
SPEAKER_01
Because again, Islam is background in Sambo freestyle wrestling, but I mean, honestly, he s probably got the same experience on the cage as Vox.
4
SPEAKER_01
Obviously, some of those wrestling skills will translate very well to the cage, but the cage is still somewhat of a gray area and equalizer.
4
SPEAKER_01
And Vogt s, again, incredible ability to stand up, incredible defense on the cage, which you saw.
4
SPEAKER_01
We worked on strategies to get up and a ton of submission defense.
4
SPEAKER_01
Islam loves Kimuras, obviously rear naked from the back, armbars, those are sort of, and arm triangles, dominant submissions.
4
SPEAKER_01
But again, the guys he submitted, not grapplers.
4
SPEAKER_01
apart from Charles Oliveira.
4
SPEAKER_01
And again, Charles Oliveira was basically knocked out at that point.
4
SPEAKER_01
So it was still impressive he submitted him.
4
SPEAKER_01
But again, I always told people this, they thought it was crazy.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was like, Charles Oliveira versus Islam in a grappling match, Oliveira is gonna win that match.
4
SPEAKER_02
Like submission grappling.
4
SPEAKER_01
Submission grappling, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
So in a pure grappling skillset, I think Oliveira is a more dangerous grappler.
4
SPEAKER_01
So we didn t even come into it thinking Islam was this unstoppable boogeyman that people make him out to be.
4
SPEAKER_01
So we approached her from that, just focused on the techniques, ability to get back up, using turtle to get back up, using turtle to scoot to the cage to get back up and hand fighting from there, keeping it pretty safe.
4
SPEAKER_01
But what makes Vox so special, I think is his gas tank, gas tank and his willpower.
4
SPEAKER_01
He s just unbreakable.
4
SPEAKER_01
The Dagestani guys, Khabib, Islam, they are good at submissions.
4
SPEAKER_01
But they break guys mentally, and they fatigue him, and then they take the submission that s offered.
4
SPEAKER_01
Olivera s a guy that can jump on submissions, and have an incredible technical ability to finish those submissions, whether you re fresh or you re tired.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then you combine that with Volkanovski, who, incredible willpower, never gets tired, you re never gonna break him, and as you saw, he only attempted one submission in the whole fire.
4
SPEAKER_01
Is that learned, is that trained, or are you just born with that mental toughness?
4
SPEAKER_01
It s a good question.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, he s like an anomaly, like the entire fight camp, not nervous at all, supremely confident.
4
SPEAKER_01
The whole fight week, completely confident.
4
SPEAKER_01
He just has an attitude like, Oh, everyone cast me out.
4
SPEAKER_01
We ll see.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
4
SPEAKER_01
Islam.
4
SPEAKER_01
He s like, let s see.
4
SPEAKER_01
No doubt.
4
SPEAKER_01
No doubt at all.
4
SPEAKER_01
Super relaxed up until about five minutes before.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then he starts to amp himself up.
4
SPEAKER_01
He s like, you are not taking this belt from my family.
4
SPEAKER_01
It gets into that sort of mindset.
4
SPEAKER_01
He actually says that out loud.
4
SPEAKER_01
You can t teach.
4
SPEAKER_01
that survival, he didn t even take a fight, you know?
4
SPEAKER_02
Have you guys ever been like pushed to the limit like that or broken in a grappling match?
4
SPEAKER_00
I ll do it in practice, I ll push myself to, I think I might pass out or die or something.
4
SPEAKER_00
As far as how tired you get, because in a match... You try not to ever get close to that in a match.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, because it s important to understand where your exhaustion point is.
4
SPEAKER_00
But yeah, if you have to push to that limit in a match, you re probably doing something wrong.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like you see in matches where guys sprint the last minute, they try to win the match the last minute.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, you definitely had some mistakes leading up to that if you have to, you know, gotta go balls to the wall.
4
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
4
SPEAKER_02
But has there been ever times in competition, especially like early on, cause you re like, you wrestled pretty hard and wrestling is pretty exhausting.
4
SPEAKER_02
Like not wrestling, but you know, wrestling style kind of thing, going against the best people in the world.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I mean, I definitely, again, I think in practice it s important to do that hard work, that way competition is much easier.
4
SPEAKER_00
I think if you redline in practice and you really push through death s door, then once you re in competition and you re working with, you re being fresh in a comp, I mean, it s much better.
4
SPEAKER_02
Have you ever been to that thing where Dan Gable talks about always wanting to be to a place where you can t get off the mat?
4
SPEAKER_02
Like you work so hard in the training room, you can t get off the mat.
4
SPEAKER_02
I think he says he s failed at that in his career.
4
SPEAKER_02
He was always able to at least crawl off the mat.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I definitely never like actually died on the mat, but I felt like I was gonna die, you know?
4
SPEAKER_02
Sure, sure.
4
SPEAKER_02
What about you?
4
SPEAKER_02
Do you quit all the time?
4
SPEAKER_01
I get a lot of cramp.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m like, you know what?
4
SPEAKER_01
You got me, man.
4
SPEAKER_01
Let s do this again tomorrow.
4
SPEAKER_00
Dude, if I m asking Craig for a role, he s in the bathroom somewhere.
4
SPEAKER_02
Do you do you see the value of pushing yourself like to that place where you re knocking on death s door?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, but within safety, you know, because obviously the most serious injuries occur when you re tired over training and stuff like that So I think like taking a page out of what those MMA fighters do especially Volks with his training Like he s not necessarily pushing crazy in each round, but he s doing extra conditioning assault bike stuff crazy workouts
5
SPEAKER_00
workouts outside.
5
SPEAKER_00
He does do some crazy training workouts, but all safe, very safe.
5
SPEAKER_00
When he s redlining like that in the training room, it s a very controlled, safe setting.
5
SPEAKER_00
I think to do that in jujitsu against some of these lunatics out there that are trying to kill you, especially when you have a name, can be dangerous.
5
SPEAKER_01
So your approach is just don t warm up and don t try too hard.
5
SPEAKER_01
For safety, though.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, longevity, you know.
5
SPEAKER_01
And talk shit about Russians.
5
SPEAKER_01
I got it, I got it, I hear you.
5
SPEAKER_01
Oh, you mentioned cage work.
5
SPEAKER_01
What s interesting to you that you ve learned over all this time about cage work?
5
SPEAKER_01
What s interesting about the dynamics of that?
5
SPEAKER_01
Are you talking about both the control in the dominant position, but also getting up from the bottom while you re against the cage, all of that?
5
SPEAKER_00
The added dimension of that cage, that wall being there, changes a lot of stuff, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
So obviously, in some ways, it s a much lower impact wrestling style because you can t be sprawled on.
5
SPEAKER_00
You can shoot, the cage is going to block their feet, you re going to be able to chase down their hips.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s just a completely different fight.
5
SPEAKER_00
And again, because of Islam s judo skills,
5
SPEAKER_00
That upper body controls you see he s able to use against the cage, like the inside trips, sort of the Uchimada style Hara Goshi throws.
5
SPEAKER_00
So obviously those skills do translate.
5
SPEAKER_00
But yeah, I think the cage is a great equalizer for a lot of things like athleticism and stuff.
5
SPEAKER_00
It takes away a huge speed advantage aspect of the fight.
5
SPEAKER_01
So he s really good at standing up.
5
SPEAKER_01
What is, is there, I assume he learned all of that from you and your instructional just stand up.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, we were so confident.
5
SPEAKER_00
I was like, you know what, why don t we put this thing out a month before the fight?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Maybe the illegal download hasn t made its way to Russia yet, but it was there for him.
5
SPEAKER_01
Can you explain to me what s in the instructional Just Stand Up?
5
SPEAKER_01
Like, what are the ideas?
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, the old school way to stand up, people talk about the technical get up, you know, the old Gracie, you put the hand, but I mean, that doesn t work.
5
SPEAKER_00
It hasn t worked for 20 years, you know?
5
SPEAKER_00
If you look at everyone that gets up in MMA, they re using turtle to get up.
5
SPEAKER_00
They re using wrestling.
5
SPEAKER_00
to get up, you know what I mean?
5
SPEAKER_00
Which is counter to what pure jujitsu says.
5
SPEAKER_00
They say don t expose the back, don t ever expose your back.
5
SPEAKER_00
I think jujitsu s a terrible way to get back to the feet because if you were to retain guard and go half guard or closed guard, super hard positions to get up.
5
SPEAKER_00
You re basically putting yourself in a leg tuck for wrestling.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I think you need to borrow from wrestling to learn how to get up in an MMA fight.
5
SPEAKER_00
So basically how to safely expose your own back while not allowing them to get hooks.
5
SPEAKER_00
and use that to get back up, or at least not allow them to get two hooks.
5
SPEAKER_00
And that applies for MMA especially?
5
SPEAKER_00
For MMA especially, because obviously striking is a factor, but if they are striking, they don t have locked hands around your body, means you are able to move.
5
SPEAKER_00
You are able to make an attempt to get back up.
5
SPEAKER_00
They have to choose between control, submission, or strikes.
5
SPEAKER_01
A post from Reddit, why does Craig Jones push so hard for a bottom is bad jiu-jitsu?
5
SPEAKER_01
What is so bad about playing bottom guard, such as half guard or De La Riva?
5
SPEAKER_01
Those are the two options.
5
SPEAKER_01
No one likes a bottom.
5
SPEAKER_01
Why would I want to get up?
5
SPEAKER_01
That s the question for all of you.
5
SPEAKER_01
Is the bottom a bad place to be?
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, the bottom s bad if you don t want that guy on top of you.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s the way I look at it, you know?
5
SPEAKER_01
That sounds like something a cowboy would say, but I don t know if that has much meaning.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think the point of jiu-jitsu is both are dangerous, being on bottom and on top.
5
SPEAKER_02
I think the longer the match is, probably favorites the top guy more, just because every movement the bottom guy makes is probably carrying your weight, carrying that gravity on top of you.
5
SPEAKER_02
So I think it s a bit more efficient passing from the top as opposed to sweeping from bottom.
5
SPEAKER_00
Bottom s reactive.
5
SPEAKER_00
Top is active.
5
SPEAKER_00
The top player decides how to engage, how to approach the guy.
5
SPEAKER_00
They can use angles, they can use footwork, they can throw people, throw the legs by.
5
SPEAKER_00
So it s an active position.
5
SPEAKER_00
Bottom s reactive.
5
SPEAKER_00
Reactive, you re going to get fatigued.
5
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, I think it s very difficult to gas somebody out while playing guard, but I think it s very easy to gas somebody out when attempting to pass it.
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, you guys are talking about gassing people out, but is there more dangers from the bottom, like in terms of submissions and all that kind of stuff, or no?
5
SPEAKER_02
I m back and forth because I m a top player, but I understand the value of being on bottom.
5
SPEAKER_02
Like when I do play guard, bottom, I feel like the submissions come much easier.
5
SPEAKER_02
And when I m on top, they come also pretty easy, but maybe I just take a different route.
5
SPEAKER_02
Top on the straights, bottom in the shades.
5
SPEAKER_01
What was the hardest part of the training camp for Volkonovsky?
5
SPEAKER_01
You re just experiencing world-class MMA fighters training and giving your approach to jiu-jitsu of not trying too hard no matter what.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, from my perspective, there s a lot of pressure for that.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s a lot of pressure for me to go in and think that I could possibly figure out a way to help this guy address this guy that s basically never been beaten.
5
SPEAKER_00
I think he got knocked out once, but basically not really even been put in bad positions.
5
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
5
SPEAKER_00
So that s a lot of pressure on me, especially because Vulcanos is such a great guy.
5
SPEAKER_00
Jiu-jitsu is different.
5
SPEAKER_00
You coach a guy who loses, he has time to tap.
5
SPEAKER_00
But in MMA, you could get severely hurt.
5
SPEAKER_00
There s a lot more weight in what you need to do as a coach.
5
SPEAKER_00
You have a greater sense of responsibility to their health and well-being.
5
SPEAKER_00
Obviously, I know Fogg s kids.
5
SPEAKER_00
I know his wife.
5
SPEAKER_00
They re putting faith in you to not just win the fight, but keep this man safe.
5
SPEAKER_00
From my perspective, a hell of a lot more pressure
5
SPEAKER_00
coaching him as an MMA fighter.
5
SPEAKER_01
So almost like the psychological aspect of doing the best you can for him.
5
SPEAKER_00
Exactly, yep, yep.
5
SPEAKER_01
What was the hardest about the actual training?
5
SPEAKER_01
Was it the technical aspect of trying to figure out the puzzle of Islam, or was it being a good training partner in figuring out how the grappling would work, basically playing your best impression of Makachev?
5
SPEAKER_01
Were you trying to actually impersonate him?
5
SPEAKER_01
Not just visually, but in style?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, definitely, definitely visually.
5
SPEAKER_01
You re not as good looking, but go ahead.
5
SPEAKER_00
A little taller, but in terms of the training, yeah, I mean, Islam s known as incredibly strong guys, so obviously I m heavier.
5
SPEAKER_00
than Islam, so theoretically, I should be able to replicate that strength difference, and then in terms of grappling, targeting those submissions that Islam does, like focusing on those in the training room, focusing on the way he holds half guard, and really, in the grappling sense, trying to replicate him on the ground, and then, yeah, I wrestle with him on the wall a ton, trying to replicate, obviously, to the best of my ability, a lot of the stuff he does on the wall, body lock heavy, inside trip, uchi matas,
5
SPEAKER_00
And just constantly putting the work on Vox, you know what I mean?
5
SPEAKER_00
Constantly chaining attacks against him, really replicating that.
5
SPEAKER_01
As he s trying to get up and escape and all that kind of stuff.
5
SPEAKER_01
Both Judo and submissions, just attacking and attacking.
5
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
5
SPEAKER_00
And there s only so much you can do, really, because obviously he s been
5
SPEAKER_00
I think he s been fighting a long time, so it s like you re trying to polish what he already is good at.
5
SPEAKER_00
You can t just completely create an entirely new game for him in the space of six weeks.
5
SPEAKER_00
You re trying to take what he s already effective at, add to it.
5
SPEAKER_00
Luckily, a lot of the stuff he s already very good at was easy to add to for the fight.
5
SPEAKER_01
Question from Reddit.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m very curious why other MMA fighters don t employ high-profile grapplers from B-Team and New Wave to improve their grappling.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s from this subreddit.
5
SPEAKER_01
By now it s clear that they are levels above almost everyone in MMA simply because fighters there don t specialize in grappling, but it doesn t seem like fighters, even champions, get training partners from the most successful teams.
5
SPEAKER_01
Why is that the case?
5
SPEAKER_01
From your experience, why doesn t Kabib call you?
5
SPEAKER_00
You might now.
5
SPEAKER_00
Put in a good word for me.
5
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I will.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s all right.
5
SPEAKER_00
He takes a joke pretty well.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
No, you ll be welcome with open arms.
5
SPEAKER_00
I think your average Jiu-Jitsu coach, MMA fighters have bad experience with Jiu-Jitsu guys.
5
SPEAKER_00
Jiu-Jitsu doesn t have a massive place in MMA.
5
SPEAKER_00
obviously rounds, stand-ups, it s hard to submit people.
5
SPEAKER_00
Your average Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belt doesn t know anything about holding a guy down, doesn t know anything about how to stand up.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I think if you overly utilize that jiu-jitsu guy that hasn t had experience in more modern no-gi or training MMA fighters previously, it s gonna be a complete waste of time to them.
5
SPEAKER_00
I think they re smart enough to realize that.
5
SPEAKER_01
Do you have, and do you guys, do you have interest in MMA at all?
5
SPEAKER_01
Just not even like, well, certainly just competing yourself, but just understanding the puzzle of MMA.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I mean, I ve been a fan of mixed martial arts for a very long time before I trained Jits.
5
SPEAKER_02
Personally, I m much rather coach than fight, but I mean, I d fight somebody for a good check and I get to pick the opponent and have a proper camp.
5
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
5
SPEAKER_00
I can think of a good Atlanta, you know.
5
SPEAKER_01
Who s that?
5
SPEAKER_01
All right.
5
SPEAKER_01
Who do you think is the greatest MMA fighter of all time?
5
SPEAKER_01
Craig, we can start with you.
5
SPEAKER_01
Just as a fan of the sport, as somebody who s been deep in it.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, from my perspective, after that performance, I m going to say Volkanovsky, because he was able to decisively outstrike Max Holloway, one of the greatest strikers in the sport, and he was able to hang with the wrestling of Islam Akechev.
5
SPEAKER_00
And in terms of Ortega, he was able to survive Ortega, who has some of the most dangerous submissions in jiu-jitsu.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I think, in my opinion, technically, he s the best.
5
SPEAKER_01
So even though he technically lost, he still has a crown.
5
SPEAKER_00
He s moving himself.
5
SPEAKER_00
I believe so.
5
SPEAKER_00
Given the size difference, given he s moving up in weight, I think all those factors really... The underdog, everything, the pressure.
5
SPEAKER_00
Did you think he would be able to hang in any of the wrestling exchanges with Islam?
5
SPEAKER_01
No, no, no.
5
SPEAKER_01
I was really surprised.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s why my eyes, like, it s kind of funny, like, winning at the end of the day, I feel like judges influence that.
5
SPEAKER_01
Although I did think Australian judges would rob the other way, but I was assuming they kind of, somebody paid somebody and not enough, maybe.
5
SPEAKER_01
But
5
SPEAKER_01
But in general, I just thought he won sort of in the eyes of what martial arts stands for, like sort of go into the fire and survive and thrive and finish the last round strong, which is kind of like spiritually is what a victory is.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I was, I wish we kept going, like- One more round.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, exactly.
5
SPEAKER_01
That kind of thing.
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, what about you?
5
SPEAKER_01
What do you think?
5
SPEAKER_01
Like who are the fighters you admire?
5
SPEAKER_01
Like who do you think is the greatest of all time?
5
SPEAKER_02
I think the fighter I paid most attention to was Jon Jones.
5
SPEAKER_02
He has a great ability just to mix the high-level striking, high-level grappling.
5
SPEAKER_02
Although his jujitsu by itself probably isn t super high-level, but his ability to mix everything together, I would say he s the best.
5
SPEAKER_02
And he s a fellow heavier guy, heavyweight now, so it s nice to see how those guys move at that weight.
5
SPEAKER_01
and a fellow natural athlete.
5
SPEAKER_01
See what I did there?
5
SPEAKER_03
What about you, Nicky?
5
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, if I had to pick a GOAT, I d probably have to say Khabib, just because he was undefeated and he had a very high finishing rate.
5
SPEAKER_03
Very few of his fights actually went to a decision.
5
SPEAKER_03
So he just overall, he dominated almost every single opponent he went against.
5
SPEAKER_01
The dominance.
5
SPEAKER_01
I mean, we ve been joking about it, but Craig, what do you think makes the Dagestani fighter so good?
5
SPEAKER_01
like from this small region of the world, so much dominance has come.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, obviously the amount of freestyle wrestling champions from that region probably puts their wrestling above and beyond the best in all of MMA.
5
SPEAKER_00
And obviously a lot of, even in the Olympics, a lot of champions out of there, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
So I think that skillset combines with them adding effective pin controls on the ground and
5
SPEAKER_00
Jiu-Jitsu submissions.
5
SPEAKER_00
But again, I think it s that hard training.
5
SPEAKER_00
Those guys like Khabib would maintain that pressure throughout the entire fight and break guys down.
5
SPEAKER_00
Their ability to fatigue guys to a breaking point, I think is something they do best.
5
SPEAKER_01
I wonder what that is.
5
SPEAKER_01
Is that technique?
5
SPEAKER_01
What is that?
5
SPEAKER_01
What is it about their upbringing?
5
SPEAKER_01
Because it s just that part of the world.
5
SPEAKER_01
What were the Satya brothers on the freestyle wrestling side to all the mixed martial arts people?
5
SPEAKER_01
It must be part of the,
5
SPEAKER_01
the culture also.
5
SPEAKER_01
They must be doing something.
5
SPEAKER_01
I haven t seen a convincing explanation of why yet, of what s specific about their training, what s specific about their culture that creates that.
5
SPEAKER_01
Okay, what do you think about the flip side?
5
SPEAKER_01
Do you admire somebody like Conor McGregor who,
5
SPEAKER_01
It knows how to create a spectacle.
5
SPEAKER_01
You, Craig, who likes spectacles?
5
SPEAKER_00
Spectacles, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I really admired early Conor McGregor, because I found him absolutely hilarious.
5
SPEAKER_00
I felt like that was peak banter.
5
SPEAKER_00
I feel like he just took the American world by storm.
5
SPEAKER_00
Aussies, British, Irish, Kiwis, I believe we have a way better level of banter and attacking each other.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it s almost too easy to pick on Americans to take themselves.
5
SPEAKER_00
Very seriously, I mean, arguably even other parts of the world too, the far east of Europe, you know?
5
SPEAKER_01
But that s the tricky thing with Conor.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think he was... I feel like you could have gotten in the same kind of trouble.
5
SPEAKER_01
Because the Russians really took everything very seriously.
5
SPEAKER_01
They weren t joking around.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s the problem.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, some things he definitely takes too far, but I felt like early on he had the right balance where he wouldn t really cross the line, but he would do enough.
5
SPEAKER_00
He just took it to another level, obviously, later in his career.
5
SPEAKER_00
But I think early on, a bit of innocent banter.
5
SPEAKER_01
It gets a lot of eyes in the sport, though.
5
SPEAKER_01
He s probably by far the most popular combat athlete of all time because of that.
5
SPEAKER_01
I feel like you have to cross the line.
5
SPEAKER_01
I don t think enough people appreciate the values he s brought by crossing the line.
5
SPEAKER_00
He s making a sacrifice crossing the line.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s gonna affect him for the rest of his life, you know?
5
SPEAKER_01
See, I don t think so.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think you can always walk back.
5
SPEAKER_01
Because I think, unlike, people might disagree with this,
5
SPEAKER_01
I thought he always radiated a respect for the opponent afterwards and underneath it.
5
SPEAKER_01
It felt like the same way you do.
5
SPEAKER_01
When I hear you shit talking, I don t see a person who really means it.
5
SPEAKER_01
I see a person who s having fun with it.
5
SPEAKER_01
I always saw Conor McGregor the same way.
5
SPEAKER_01
I don t know, but people took it like extremely seriously.
5
SPEAKER_01
But I saw the respect, like the common respect the martial artists have for each other that felt like it was always there.
5
SPEAKER_00
If you don t like that individual, you re gonna perceive what they say more negatively than if you obviously were.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I feel like if you like someone, you re gonna never think they really crossed the line.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s true, so you re saying I like you.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s what I m perceiving.
5
SPEAKER_00
You re bullshit in a positive light.
5
SPEAKER_00
Are there people that hate you?
5
SPEAKER_00
You get to know everyone?
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, some of the family members are just hateful.
5
SPEAKER_01
People that really get to know you all hate you.
5
SPEAKER_00
The fans love me, the friends hate me.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s a good place to be.
5
SPEAKER_01
Keep your enemies close.
5
SPEAKER_01
All right.
5
SPEAKER_01
What do you think is the most important muscle for you, Justin?
5
SPEAKER_01
Is it biceps?
5
SPEAKER_02
I think a strong, I think a strong back.
5
SPEAKER_02
I think back one, core second, and then biceps.
5
SPEAKER_01
Okay, biceps.
5
SPEAKER_01
Cool.
5
SPEAKER_01
Do you legitimately think like weightlifting helps jiu-jitsu?
5
SPEAKER_01
It s kind of the discussion on the steroids, it s like...
5
SPEAKER_01
the muscle mass and strength and power and explosiveness, all of that.
5
SPEAKER_02
I think sometimes when we re at that upper echelon of competition, there s only, there s like little minute battles that you have to win.
5
SPEAKER_02
And if you re relatively close in technique, then a lot of times a stronger opponent pulls it out.
5
SPEAKER_01
But it could be also just the limitation, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
You hold position too long.
5
SPEAKER_01
What about for hobbyists, do you recommend weightlifting, like when you see people in the gym?
5
SPEAKER_02
I always recommend weightlifting.
5
SPEAKER_02
I almost see muscle as the body s armor, right?
5
SPEAKER_02
The more armor you have, the more damage you can kind of take and maybe recovery is a little bit better.
5
SPEAKER_02
And I ve always seen weightlifting as a means to stick to my routine.
5
SPEAKER_02
There s no point in lifting if you re not eating right and you re not sleeping right.
5
SPEAKER_02
So if you kind of put it all together, then it s beneficial.
5
SPEAKER_01
What about you guys?
5
SPEAKER_01
Do you go to the gym?
5
SPEAKER_00
I go to the gym, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Believe it or not.
5
SPEAKER_01
Do you go to the hotel gym to use an elliptical and that butt machine?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I focus on the glutes heavily.
5
SPEAKER_01
All right.
5
SPEAKER_01
What about the injury prevention and so on?
5
SPEAKER_01
How do you train to minimize the risk of injury?
5
SPEAKER_01
You guys have all been pretty beat up.
5
SPEAKER_01
You ve gotten a major injury with the ACL.
6
SPEAKER_03
So how do you train to minimize injury?
6
SPEAKER_03
Probably not the right guy to ask, eh?
6
SPEAKER_03
Actually, can you talk through your injury, like what happened?
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so about one week prior to this last ADCC, I was wrestling with this guy named Kenta, who was also competing, and I went to go lift him from like a rear body lock, and he hooked the outside of my leg, and we just felt something pop, you know, he felt a shift with his leg, and
6
SPEAKER_01
When it first happened, it hurt for like the first 30 seconds, and I honestly debated.
6
SPEAKER_01
I was like, maybe it was just, you know, some freak thing.
6
SPEAKER_01
I was like, I literally thought about continuing the session.
6
SPEAKER_01
Then the next day, I woke up and it was like super sore.
6
SPEAKER_01
I was, you know, limping around, couldn t do a full squat.
6
SPEAKER_01
So, it pretty much killed all of my training for the entire week leading up to the event.
6
SPEAKER_01
So, I couldn t train or anything.
6
SPEAKER_01
Messed up the cut.
6
SPEAKER_01
Obviously, there s added nerves with that too, you know, when you re not in the gym every day leading up to the competition.
6
SPEAKER_01
I went out there.
6
SPEAKER_01
I wasn t really able to pull guard because I couldn t get, you know, full heel to butt connection, which is inevitable with playing guard.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I was very hesitant to shoot as well.
6
SPEAKER_01
So, I came out with the idea of just trying to use hand fighting to tire my first opponent out, and then mainly look to get to underhooks or overhooks and do mostly upper body wrestling.
6
SPEAKER_01
In the beginning of the match, I successfully got to an underhook, I got to a rear body lock, he tried to roll, and I ended up in top position in side control.
6
SPEAKER_01
But it was during the no points period, and then as the match went on, I gassed out, and eventually he ended up
6
SPEAKER_01
taking me down and then scoring with two hooks on the back.
6
SPEAKER_03
So what s the injury?
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so I got an MRI actually after the event.
6
SPEAKER_01
I didn t know.
6
SPEAKER_03
So you waited, wait, wait, you waited until after the event?
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I waited until after.
6
SPEAKER_01
Cause like knowledge or ignorance is bliss?
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, exactly.
6
SPEAKER_01
I was like, honestly, I don t even want to know what s wrong.
6
SPEAKER_01
I was like, I d just go out there, compete.
6
SPEAKER_01
You know, I knew it was like the biggest event to date and I really wanted to do it.
6
SPEAKER_03
Did you think about not doing it?
6
SPEAKER_01
It definitely was a thought in my head, especially that the day after, you know, it s always the worst day whenever you have like a serious injury is the day after.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, man, I really can t do a full squat.
6
SPEAKER_01
I was like, I don t even know how I m going to be able to do this.
6
SPEAKER_01
It got a bit better over as the week went on.
6
SPEAKER_01
But I was like, man, I have to go out there and compete.
6
SPEAKER_01
I was like, it ll always be in the back of my mind.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like, what if if I ended up pulling out?
6
SPEAKER_02
What did you think about this whole?
6
SPEAKER_02
I thought he was just being a pussy.
6
SPEAKER_02
Just slap him around, just yell at him.
6
SPEAKER_04
I didn t think we pressured you, we just said you make your own decision, right?
6
SPEAKER_03
Is that a tricky thing to do with a serious injury like this?
6
SPEAKER_01
We didn t know that was the thing we didn t know.
6
SPEAKER_01
Honestly, initially I thought it was, I tore my lateral meniscus, but that ended up not being the case.
6
SPEAKER_01
It ended up being a full ACL tear.
6
SPEAKER_01
I was actually super surprised when I got the MRI results.
6
SPEAKER_01
So yeah, we didn t know how bad it actually was.
6
SPEAKER_03
What do you think about that situation?
6
SPEAKER_00
I think Nicky s a tough kid.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I mean, when you re so close to that competition, you know, there s not many, you don t get many opportunities like that to compete in front of, you know, 15,000 people.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s like, you know, props to you for pushing through it and getting it.
6
SPEAKER_00
And man, he had a close match with one of the best grapplers in his weight class.
6
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, you know, a few adjustments here and there.
6
SPEAKER_00
And especially, you know, if he was able to train previously leading up to that match, I think Nicky pulls it out.
6
SPEAKER_03
So some of the things you mentioned is nerves.
6
SPEAKER_03
Are those extra nerves just because you re underprepared?
6
SPEAKER_01
Or feeling underprepared?
6
SPEAKER_01
You want to go into a competition with the confidence, I did everything that I could leading up to this event.
6
SPEAKER_01
I trained as much as I could.
6
SPEAKER_01
And then when an injury prevents that, you start to doubt yourself more.
6
SPEAKER_03
How do you guys think about injury?
6
SPEAKER_03
How do you train, you know, training with the best in the world, training to be the best in the world, and avoiding injury?
6
SPEAKER_03
Because you ve gotten, you tore your bicep, I think?
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, I tore a bicep.
6
SPEAKER_00
Doing curls, or?
6
SPEAKER_00
Dude, honestly, I was bodybuilding, you know, for like seven years, and no lie, I did, I trained biceps like most days, like almost every day in those seven years.
6
SPEAKER_00
Pretty much, I injured myself.
6
SPEAKER_00
That s so Jersey, man.
6
SPEAKER_04
Anything else, or just the biceps?
6
SPEAKER_00
Just, I mean, yeah, I injured the bicep.
6
SPEAKER_00
Pretty much the day before a wrestling practice, I had a killer arm day.
6
SPEAKER_00
And by arm day, I just mean training biceps, very rigorously getting a sick pump.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I go to wrestling practice the next day, pretty late, I should have been there.
6
SPEAKER_00
I didn t get a proper warmup in.
6
SPEAKER_00
And the first thing I do is I shake hands and I go to shoot a single leg and boom, I just blew my arm out, the first movement I did.
6
SPEAKER_00
So just not being warmed up properly in addition to having a very vigorous arm day a few hours prior.
6
SPEAKER_00
You hear that about warmup?
6
SPEAKER_00
So what are some lessons about avoiding injury?
6
SPEAKER_00
I would say number one is warming up properly.
6
SPEAKER_00
Making sure your body s hot before you do hot stuff.
6
SPEAKER_03
Okay.
6
SPEAKER_03
And what does warm up look like for you?
6
SPEAKER_03
Is it jiu-jitsu or non-jiu-jitsu stuff?
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, just for a warm-up in general, I ll do something like a, if I m talking competition, something like a jog walk back and forth a few times, then a sprint jog a few times to get that heart rate up and down.
6
SPEAKER_00
And then I ll grab a partner.
6
SPEAKER_00
I actually just filmed a DVD, an instructional specifically on the pre-match ritual.
6
SPEAKER_00
In addition to that, I ll grab a partner, I ll drill some movements.
6
SPEAKER_00
Typically I ll drill some bad things, like I ll start from bottom mount, bottom side control, work out from there.
6
SPEAKER_00
And in pretty much like 20 minutes in, I m hot and I m ready to go for rounds.
6
SPEAKER_03
Well, what about you, Greg?
6
SPEAKER_03
So what s the way to avoid injury?
6
SPEAKER_02
What s the worst injury you ve had?
6
SPEAKER_02
What s the worst injury?
6
SPEAKER_02
I don t even know.
6
SPEAKER_04
I m pretty good, pretty healthy.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Whenever you quit practice, I m gonna have some mental issues.
6
SPEAKER_03
Has your heart ever been broken?
6
SPEAKER_04
Oh, many times, many times.
6
SPEAKER_04
But there s a thing I notice.
6
SPEAKER_04
People that spend the most time warming up are often the most injured.
6
SPEAKER_04
It s a strong correlation.
6
SPEAKER_03
All right, you can t argue with science.
6
SPEAKER_04
I remember training with Oliver Tyson.
6
SPEAKER_04
Oliver Tyson would have a 60 minute warmup.
6
SPEAKER_04
Surprise, surprise, always injured.
6
SPEAKER_04
Very common.
6
SPEAKER_04
I find that very common in the training room.
6
SPEAKER_04
No, I think people, it s how they train.
6
SPEAKER_04
Like if you, like me, first sign of discomfort, backpedal, you know, push through that stuff, go too hard, go when you re too tired, you know what I mean?
6
SPEAKER_04
Get too emotional in the role.
6
SPEAKER_04
I feel like those are the times that I ve been hurt where I just like, oh, I can t let this guy get me.
6
SPEAKER_04
When I have that attitude and try, I believe it s how you train and sort of,
6
SPEAKER_03
So what does this come from, positionally too?
6
SPEAKER_03
Because you re training against some killers.
6
SPEAKER_03
You re training with him and going probably pretty hard.
6
SPEAKER_03
If Craig gets a little tired, he s like, yeah, I m good for today.
6
SPEAKER_04
Once a month with Nicky, that s it.
6
SPEAKER_03
And then you quit like 30 seconds in.
6
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, you know, you got to be safe.
6
SPEAKER_03
I like it.
6
SPEAKER_03
What about you?
6
SPEAKER_03
What have you learned from the ACL with Tara?
6
SPEAKER_04
Through rehab, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, rehab definitely would help.
6
SPEAKER_01
Oh, so you haven t been like- I didn t get surgery, I didn t do essentially any rehab, I just have no ACL in my left leg.
6
SPEAKER_03
So what s it like having no ACL?
6
SPEAKER_04
Surgery, guys, you ve got two options.
6
SPEAKER_04
Surgery, rehab only.
6
SPEAKER_04
Nikki goes, I ll do nothing.
6
SPEAKER_01
Definitely should pick up on the rehab.
6
SPEAKER_03
What s rehab for that look like?
6
SPEAKER_03
Like twice a day of doing some weird... Like bands or something?
6
SPEAKER_04
It s good he s learned some valuable lessons about taking care of his body.
6
SPEAKER_03
What s it like just training with no ACL?
6
SPEAKER_01
So at the beginning, it was definitely a little iffy.
6
SPEAKER_01
You know, I would have an occasional buckle, like I d just be wrestling with somebody and go to step back and it d buckle backwards a bit.
6
SPEAKER_01
But honestly, now, like I haven t had a single buckle instance in a while, it feels 100% normal when I train.
6
SPEAKER_01
It feels better than my other knee, to be honest.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like I had my meniscus taken out in my right leg and that one gets sore more often than the no ACL leg.
6
SPEAKER_03
Okay, all right, so putting that aside, is there wisdom you ve learned from that experience?
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, definitely should be doing rehab and prehab.
6
SPEAKER_01
You know, I think that, you know, especially if you re a hobbyist or a professional athlete, you should be lifting, you know, whether you re rehabbing an injury or just for injury prevention.
6
SPEAKER_03
So I m actually closer to Corey, because I ve trained my whole life, like pretty hard, obviously just a hobbyist, but like twice a day, did judo, wrestling, all that, never broke anything, never injured, kind of like similar philosophy, except like last year, I guess a year and a half ago, I got a tiny like groin pull injury, and it still hasn t healed.
6
SPEAKER_03
And I ve been using your approach of not giving a shit.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_03
And like, surely this is gonna heal, it ll be fine.
6
SPEAKER_03
But it hasn t.
6
SPEAKER_03
Of course, if I was like an actual athlete, I would like probably still train through it and just fuck it, figure it out.
6
SPEAKER_03
But when you have other stuff going on, you just kind of wait it out.
6
SPEAKER_03
But no, I think probably rehab, especially as you get older, you have to do that kind of stuff.
6
SPEAKER_00
I think it s important for people to determine whether what they re going through is an injury or they re just hurt a little bit.
6
SPEAKER_00
Because injury, for sure, take time, rehab it, and get better.
6
SPEAKER_00
But a lot of people, they ll stub a toe or something.
6
SPEAKER_00
You re out for a few weeks.
6
SPEAKER_03
Well, that s the problem with the injury I have.
6
SPEAKER_03
It feels like a stubbed toe.
6
SPEAKER_03
So I was like, eh, I ll just wait a couple of days.
6
SPEAKER_03
It ll be fine.
6
SPEAKER_03
And then a couple of days later, it s not fine.
6
SPEAKER_03
And you wait.
6
SPEAKER_03
And then I never got an MRI, never got any of that.
6
SPEAKER_03
It s like, I m sure I ll be fine.
6
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_03
So it s hard to know sometimes.
6
SPEAKER_03
what, it s hard to know.
6
SPEAKER_03
I feel like a lot of people will just not check it out and be fine.
6
SPEAKER_03
Because there s several failure cases.
6
SPEAKER_03
There is a failure case of where everything is a stubbed toe.
6
SPEAKER_03
You re like, fuck it.
6
SPEAKER_03
Like you re bleeding everywhere.
6
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, it s fine, whatever.
6
SPEAKER_03
So you have to be careful.
6
SPEAKER_03
A lot of people can fall into that too.
6
SPEAKER_03
I think I m in that category.
6
SPEAKER_03
Go to the doctor.
6
SPEAKER_03
Why do you go to the doctor?
6
SPEAKER_04
Your best approach is typically wait until something else gets hurt so that you ll forget about the grain.
6
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, exactly.
6
SPEAKER_03
That s what I was hoping.
6
SPEAKER_03
I was hoping to get hurt.
6
SPEAKER_03
Waiting for the broken heart, maybe.
6
SPEAKER_03
Okay, that was very helpful.
6
SPEAKER_03
Oh, you mentioned you re doing a whole thing on the pre-match ritual.
6
SPEAKER_03
Can you kind of preview what s involved in your pre-match ritual?
6
SPEAKER_00
it s pretty big in the wrestling culture and the fighting culture, like kind of what to do before your competition.
6
SPEAKER_00
But I think a few of our, a few people are just kind of missing out exactly, you know, what to do.
6
SPEAKER_00
So I break it down for them.
6
SPEAKER_00
I break it down to people like four weeks in advance, how you should prep, you know, your training and your nutrition and your sleep for competition.
6
SPEAKER_00
In addition to that, I break it down even like to a smaller scale of like,
6
SPEAKER_00
how early you should get to the event, when you should be visualizing your competition, what to do 30 minutes before, 20 minutes, 10 minutes, five minutes, and the kind of mentality you should have throughout those times before you actually step onto the mat.
6
SPEAKER_03
When are you visualizing?
6
SPEAKER_03
How much are you visualizing?
6
SPEAKER_03
When you say competition, are you talking about the tournament or the actual people you might be competing against?
6
SPEAKER_00
A little bit of both.
6
SPEAKER_00
I ll spend time just visualizing the crowd.
6
SPEAKER_00
If it s going to be an arena with 15,000 people, I ll spend time in practice and whatnot putting myself inside that arena and visualizing stepping on the mat and hearing the crowd scream and whatnot.
6
SPEAKER_00
That way,
6
SPEAKER_00
you know, when competition time comes, it s kind of the same deal.
6
SPEAKER_00
I m accustomed to it.
6
SPEAKER_00
In addition, when I get to the arena, I ll step on the mat.
6
SPEAKER_00
I ll kind of look at everything.
6
SPEAKER_00
I ll expose my senses to what it s gonna be.
6
SPEAKER_00
And then I ll kind of shut everything off.
6
SPEAKER_00
Like a lot, some people, you know, scroll through their phone and can treat it like normal, have this normal conversations.
6
SPEAKER_00
For me, I like to limit my sensory input, my sensory intake before I go out and compete.
6
SPEAKER_00
I just feel like sometimes, I feel like sometimes we only have so many decisions you can make in a day.
6
SPEAKER_00
and I want all of my best decisions to be made when it matters, when it counts.
6
SPEAKER_03
Oh, what about you?
6
SPEAKER_02
Do you limit your sensory input?
6
SPEAKER_02
On game day?
6
SPEAKER_04
Honestly, no routine, nothing, eh?
6
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, I don t do anything.
6
SPEAKER_00
This guy s a double silver.
6
SPEAKER_00
We re both double silver.
6
SPEAKER_04
You should buy his instructional, it might help you.
6
SPEAKER_04
I ll get another silver.
6
SPEAKER_04
Now, honestly, nothing, hey, I just try to relax, treat it like it s before training.
6
SPEAKER_04
Have a good time.
6
SPEAKER_03
What, visualizations or no?
6
SPEAKER_04
No, no visualizations.
6
SPEAKER_03
So the opposite of visualization.
6
SPEAKER_03
You just avoid it before thinking about it.
6
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, I don t even think about it.
6
SPEAKER_04
I m just like, yeah, we ll have a good time.
6
SPEAKER_04
Try to appreciate it, that I can do it.
6
SPEAKER_03
By the way, when you visualize, are you visualizing tough positions or you visualize winning mostly?
6
SPEAKER_00
I definitely visualize winning.
6
SPEAKER_00
I visualize how I can get, how I m going to get to my most dominant positions.
6
SPEAKER_00
Cause you know, in comp I want to do what I m best at.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I m also see, I see my opponent in his best positions and how I m going to escape those if necessary.
6
SPEAKER_00
But most of the time I m just visualizing exactly what I m going to do in that match.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I go out there and do it.
6
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
6
SPEAKER_03
So what had, when, when, when your teammate Craig is, you know, another like world-class athlete has a fundamentally different philosophy than you.
6
SPEAKER_03
Do you visualize being frustrated at him?
6
SPEAKER_00
No, not frustrated, but I ll definitely come into practice with solutions to problems that Craig gives me.
6
SPEAKER_00
If Craig s catching me at something or giving me issues, I ll go home, I ll watch a match that he lost for motivation, and I ll come back and I ll put it on him.
6
SPEAKER_03
Just DM him a highlight reel of him losing?
6
SPEAKER_03
What about you?
6
SPEAKER_03
Does it affect you that you re a bit of an outlier?
6
SPEAKER_04
Usually before I compete, right before I go out there, I go, why am I doing this?
6
SPEAKER_04
Do I still need to do this?
6
SPEAKER_04
And I think if I hopefully don t embarrass myself, affect my instructional sales, that s the last thought.
6
SPEAKER_04
But I don t even put too much thought into the whole competing thing.
6
SPEAKER_04
I m just like, you know what, train hard, hopefully have a good time out there.
6
SPEAKER_03
What about the motivation aspect?
6
SPEAKER_03
Like that voice that says like, why am I doing this?
6
SPEAKER_03
That voice can break a lot of people.
6
SPEAKER_03
Like in the weight cut, it can break a lot of people.
6
SPEAKER_03
Like why am I doing this stupid, silly sport?
6
SPEAKER_03
Like you said, a bunch of dudes just rolling around, like what s the point?
6
SPEAKER_04
I ll call someone with a nine to five job and I ll be like, yeah, that s why I m doing this.
6
SPEAKER_04
Avoid that.
6
SPEAKER_00
Sell those DVDs, man.
6
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, I didn t get too deep on competing.
6
SPEAKER_00
We re so polar opposite, it s almost uncomfortable to be around you.
6
SPEAKER_04
Obviously, one of us is a clean athlete.
6
SPEAKER_03
You should do a DVD on that.
6
SPEAKER_03
What about you in terms of preparing for competition, Mickey?
6
SPEAKER_03
The day before, the day of, are there rituals that you follow?
6
SPEAKER_01
Honestly, the few days leading up to it, it s different for me every time.
6
SPEAKER_01
Sometimes I ll warm up before I compete.
6
SPEAKER_01
Sometimes I won t.
6
SPEAKER_01
Sometimes I ll fast.
6
SPEAKER_01
Sometimes I ll eat.
6
SPEAKER_01
So it literally is just completely random.
6
SPEAKER_01
I don t follow any specific thing.
6
SPEAKER_01
But in the training room leading up to the competition, I ll definitely, like Nicky Rod, visualize that I m walking out onto the competition mats.
6
SPEAKER_01
I ll pick somebody that s a similar body type to the person that I m competing against.
6
SPEAKER_01
And then we ll start out.
6
SPEAKER_01
with some distance between us, we ll come out, smack hands, and act like everything s a real competition.
6
SPEAKER_01
I ll even sometimes have corners that will yell out times and things like that, just to replicate it as much as possible.
6
SPEAKER_03
That s funny, because I ve talked to a lot of Olympic gold medalists, I used to do a podcast with athletes, and they all sound like Nicky Rod.
6
SPEAKER_03
The two of you are outliers.
6
SPEAKER_03
I don t know, sometimes I ll do this, sometimes, so anyway.
6
SPEAKER_03
But that s also Jiu-Jitsu culture, I think.
6
SPEAKER_03
Maybe the chaos of not taking things too serious is actually really, really helpful.
6
SPEAKER_03
Sometimes the pressure of taking everything way too seriously can break you.
6
SPEAKER_04
I mean, it s just, I think it s the biggest sport, really.
6
SPEAKER_00
You know?
6
SPEAKER_00
I think if I compete every day in practice, it just makes competition much easier.
6
SPEAKER_00
So I just put the pressure on there.
6
SPEAKER_03
On the competition, yeah, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_03
On the, sorry, on the training, on the competing and the training.
6
SPEAKER_03
I don t know, Olympic sports aren t that big either financially, and people take it extremely, extremely seriously.
6
SPEAKER_03
You don t really get that much money from judo.
6
SPEAKER_04
I mean, I just don t take jiu-jitsu that seriously, because I was just
6
SPEAKER_04
and having a good time until 21, and then I was like, oh, fuck, do I get a job?
6
SPEAKER_04
Or do I pursue professional sports?
6
SPEAKER_04
And I feel like if I made a career in jujitsu with a decision at that point.
6
SPEAKER_04
And now you just stumbled your way somehow into being at the top of the world.
6
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, that s what I feel like.
6
SPEAKER_04
I just walked into it.
6
SPEAKER_04
I feel like I couldn t just do that in wrestling, boxing.
6
SPEAKER_04
I couldn t do that in other sports.
7
SPEAKER_02
What was the toughest match you ever had that pushed you mentally, physically, technically?
7
SPEAKER_02
This doesn t have to be the best person you faced, but was there like a moment in your career that was like really defining for you?
7
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I would say like the toughest mentally was just this last ADCC.
7
SPEAKER_01
I just had a big injury leading into it that kind of screwed the whole camp and weight cutting everything up.
7
SPEAKER_01
So yeah, I would say the last ADCC.
7
SPEAKER_02
Are you proud of your performance there?
7
SPEAKER_02
Like you stepped on the mat, that you pushed through all of it?
7
SPEAKER_01
Like I said, I m a very competitive person and I hate losing, so definitely not, yeah.
7
SPEAKER_03
You had a collapse long.
7
SPEAKER_03
He was so physically exhausted afterwards, couldn t breathe.
7
SPEAKER_03
We had to get medical intervention.
7
SPEAKER_03
He thought he had a collapse lung.
7
SPEAKER_01
I was the most tired that I ve ever been in my life in that match.
7
SPEAKER_01
I actually popped a blood vessel in my eye.
7
SPEAKER_01
I was trying so hard.
7
SPEAKER_00
He comes out, he walks off the ADCC mat backstage.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, I m kind of getting warmed up for my match.
7
SPEAKER_00
And Nikki Ryan comes, he walks over, huffing and puffing.
7
SPEAKER_00
His mom s right next to me, he looks at her, he s like, I think I need help.
7
SPEAKER_00
I think I ve got a lung collapse.
7
SPEAKER_00
That s not true.
7
SPEAKER_00
No?
7
SPEAKER_01
That s not true?
7
SPEAKER_01
My mom s the one that called for medical help.
7
SPEAKER_01
I was just laying on the warm up mat fucking dying.
7
SPEAKER_00
Well, we re happy you re fine.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_03
Lead it on the line.
7
SPEAKER_03
What about you, Craig?
7
SPEAKER_03
Defining all toughest matches?
7
SPEAKER_03
I mean, they re all pretty tough, you know?
7
SPEAKER_03
I don t know.
7
SPEAKER_03
I can t really pinpoint one.
7
SPEAKER_03
I mean, probably the most annoying one was obviously the one where I had Gordon Arnby, I was like, tap, bro.
7
SPEAKER_03
And he wouldn t tap, so I let him out.
7
SPEAKER_03
Mentally, I was like, I shouldn t have done that.
7
SPEAKER_02
Do you ever have a thing in your brain where it says should I shit talk now or not and you ever you say no I m gonna be respectful.
7
SPEAKER_03
I just can t be serious.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah about some of these I don t know.
7
SPEAKER_02
It s just silly.
7
SPEAKER_02
It s just all of it the whole thing.
7
SPEAKER_00
What about you Nick?
7
SPEAKER_00
Um, dude, honestly, most of my toughest matches are, are in the training room, right?
7
SPEAKER_00
Because I started with these guys, I started training under them, like, you know, started training at DDS when I didn t have any knowledge, like, of like, I knew wrestling, I knew like a knee cut.
7
SPEAKER_00
in Jiu Jitsu, but like I started training with them when I knew almost no Jiu Jitsu and then I had to like, you know, really work my way up.
7
SPEAKER_00
So definitely in the training room, like being like having one of these guys on my back or like there s a stretch of like a few weeks or months when COVID first hit and it was just like,
7
SPEAKER_00
four of the best grapplers in the world.
7
SPEAKER_00
And we just did drilling and live rounds with these four guys.
7
SPEAKER_00
And it was just, it was hard.
7
SPEAKER_00
It was very hard.
7
SPEAKER_00
You know, every round doing six rounds, seven days a week with the best grapplers in the world.
7
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, you get no break and you re forced to learn on the go.
7
SPEAKER_00
So I think for me in the training room, that was definitely my toughest matches.
7
SPEAKER_00
And that s where I built, you know, those mental calluses.
7
SPEAKER_03
Uh, there was a period where I drew with Nikki ride probably what nine months, 12 months.
7
SPEAKER_03
And typically speaking, like I said, no warmups, the first round, we should take it pretty easy.
7
SPEAKER_03
First round, you start in Mount the whole room, the rest of the training room.
7
SPEAKER_03
They take me out very lightly.
7
SPEAKER_03
Me and Nicky Rod would be fighting to the death every day.
7
SPEAKER_03
I felt like we did an extra round every day.
7
SPEAKER_03
It was very grueling.
7
SPEAKER_00
I m very mean when I m in the midst of drilling or live.
7
SPEAKER_00
We would drill wrestling quite a bit, like stand up.
7
SPEAKER_00
And in the drilling, I just wouldn t let Craig take me down.
7
SPEAKER_00
We re not gonna lie, we re just drilling, but I just wouldn t let him put me on the floor.
7
SPEAKER_00
So things like that.
7
SPEAKER_02
I know it escalate.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_02
So you mentioned mount like so you do positional training.
7
SPEAKER_02
So is that would that be the hardest versus like live training open like starting from guard?
7
SPEAKER_00
I would say mount and turtle definitely definitely made me very tough because you spend all this effort getting off of bottom out.
7
SPEAKER_00
And then you got to get on top of a guy in the, at the time I m not that good at holding guys down.
7
SPEAKER_00
So they escape quick.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, fuck, I just tried to hold them down.
7
SPEAKER_00
Got to go back down.
7
SPEAKER_00
Same thing with a turtle.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s like you, you start bottom turtle.
7
SPEAKER_00
You re trying to explode, get out, get away.
7
SPEAKER_00
And then, you know, you switch and this guy gets up, gets up pretty quick.
7
SPEAKER_00
And you re like, damn, I got to go right back down.
7
SPEAKER_00
It was that constant circle, man.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s, it s very tough, but definitely, you know, build some character on the mat.
7
SPEAKER_02
What do you think is the value of positional training in general in jiu-jitsu?
7
SPEAKER_02
Actually, this one, just interacting with you guys, it s not commonly done in just regular jiu-jitsu gyms.
7
SPEAKER_02
What do you see?
7
SPEAKER_02
Probably it s not commonly done because most of the experience is just frustrating.
7
SPEAKER_02
Like if you re evenly matched, you re basically frustrated the whole time, if you re doing it right.
7
SPEAKER_00
There s a psychological battle that happens in like the mountain turtle rounds.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s like, you know, cause you, maybe you get close to subbing a guy and, or maybe you do sub them.
7
SPEAKER_00
You know, when you start on turtle and you re on their back, you finish them and then you get this high point.
7
SPEAKER_00
And then immediately you got to go back down to defensive posture.
7
SPEAKER_00
And it s very like, it s emotionally like up and down.
7
SPEAKER_00
So it s hard to deal with.
7
SPEAKER_03
Super important if you re one of the better people in the gym, because it just,
7
SPEAKER_03
puts you in positions you don t find yourself in, in regular training.
7
SPEAKER_03
So I think like a lot of, if you re a big fish in a small pond and you don t do positional sparring, you re probably going to get exposed in competition.
7
SPEAKER_03
You might even look silly in those positions.
7
SPEAKER_03
So you really have to force yourself to do it, despite the fact that you re giving someone worse than you a position where they might catch you.
7
SPEAKER_03
So you have to sort of put the ego aside.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, that s one of the things when I was training regularly, of course, training with you guys, it s like trivial, but I didn t work on putting myself in bad positions when you get better and you regret it.
7
SPEAKER_02
The big negative thing it has, consequence it has on competition is you don t take as many risks because you re kind of afraid for your back to get taken, all that kind of stuff.
7
SPEAKER_03
That was me before I went to DDS.
7
SPEAKER_03
I remember I showed up there in that old position.
7
SPEAKER_03
I was like, fuck this.
7
SPEAKER_03
You better earn this position.
7
SPEAKER_03
I didn t really have escapes.
7
SPEAKER_02
That was a learning curve for me for sure.
7
SPEAKER_02
Do you see the value in positional training or is it just the source of tremendous frustration?
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I definitely think it plays a big part in your confidence when you step out onto the competition mats.
7
SPEAKER_01
Being confident that even if you get put in the worst possible situations, you know what to do and know how to work out of them.
7
SPEAKER_02
I had a long argument with Haja Gracie when he visited, and he thinks Mao is the most dominant position, even in Nogi, versus Beck.
7
SPEAKER_02
Is there a case to be made for that, or no?
7
SPEAKER_00
I think all of your opponent s utensils, their tools, are in front of them.
7
SPEAKER_00
So like, if you re on mount, they still have, you know, there s a few ways to get out of mount.
7
SPEAKER_00
I think if you re on somebody s back, I d personally much rather be on somebody s back than... Flattened out.
7
SPEAKER_00
I d rather have someone s back and then flattened out.
7
SPEAKER_00
Boots in, flattened out.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_02
Boots in, flattened out.
7
SPEAKER_02
So not even body triangle, but just flattened.
7
SPEAKER_03
Just completely flat.
7
SPEAKER_03
Almost like the position in MMA where you see guys get finished because they can t get out.
7
SPEAKER_03
I think that position is probably the hardest position to escape.
7
SPEAKER_02
Can you see what Hodger s talking about with Mount, or is he just that good at Mount, that he says that?
7
SPEAKER_02
He might mean the gi, cross collar, you know?
7
SPEAKER_02
I don t know.
7
SPEAKER_02
Or did he mean that gi?
7
SPEAKER_02
Well, he says controlling-wise, he just believes that you can complete, that there s, he actually thinks there s more ways to get out from the back than there is from the Mount.
7
SPEAKER_02
Prior to the- Getting up, including like physically.
7
SPEAKER_03
Prior to the kipping escape.
7
SPEAKER_03
I would probably agree with him, but that kipping escape is so difficult to manage.
7
SPEAKER_03
It s the funny looking escape where your legs are wiggling.
7
SPEAKER_03
People have a lot of trouble.
7
SPEAKER_03
It s super hard to learn how to do, but then once you learn how to do it, the effectiveness is just huge.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it s a weird one.
7
SPEAKER_02
When did that come to be a thing?
7
SPEAKER_02
Is that pretty recent?
7
SPEAKER_03
I mean, I saw DDS guys using it first, I think.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_02
Who s the first guy to discover something like that?
7
SPEAKER_02
This seems like a ridiculous thing to discover.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, like what if I just wiggle?
7
SPEAKER_00
I thought it was a joke at first.
7
SPEAKER_00
I was like, you guys really doing this?
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_02
I remember somebody showing me a technique where if you just walk your hand on a mat or something like that.
7
SPEAKER_00
Like an arm triangle or something?
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
7
SPEAKER_02
And it s just like a funny discovery, as opposed to trying to shove it in, just walk it.
7
SPEAKER_03
I like doing that to people, but with things that aren t true.
7
SPEAKER_03
You know what I mean?
7
SPEAKER_03
I ll just tell them this is a technique and watch him.
7
SPEAKER_03
try to work out if I m being serious or not.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, that s what you do when you achieve guru status.
7
SPEAKER_02
They ll just listen to you like you re Steven Seagal.
7
SPEAKER_02
See what they ll believe.
7
SPEAKER_02
Speaking of which, how do you balance, you have to travel all across the world, how do you balance that with running a school or being a world-class jujitsu athlete?
7
SPEAKER_03
I mean, the secrets of travel for me are two drugs, Xanax and modafinil.
7
SPEAKER_03
That s how we time adjust and we hit the ground running.
7
SPEAKER_03
But.
7
SPEAKER_03
What does modafinil do?
7
SPEAKER_02
Xanax puts you to sleep.
7
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, I mean, I have narcolepsy, so it s a narcolepsy medication.
7
SPEAKER_03
But.
7
SPEAKER_02
How does that work with the steroids?
7
SPEAKER_03
I mean, they work well together, you know?
7
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, nice.
7
SPEAKER_03
Focus and physical recovery.
7
SPEAKER_03
But in terms of traveling and training and stuff, it is, I mean, we re lucky because we ve got so many high-level guys, so we can travel and they re still in good hands.
7
SPEAKER_03
I mean, it would be a problem if me, Nicky Rod and Nicky Ryan left and the gym had Ethan, that would be a problem.
7
SPEAKER_03
But we ve got to make sure it s not just him now.
7
SPEAKER_03
Although everyone says they re happy when you re gone, so that s the moment I heard.
7
SPEAKER_03
Happy when I m gone, but they do miss me.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_03
For sure, until I get back.
7
SPEAKER_02
All right, what about you?
7
SPEAKER_02
Just like balancing, do you try to stay completely focused on competing?
7
SPEAKER_02
Like for some of the big matches that are coming up, are you able to kind of diversify?
7
SPEAKER_00
Well, I like to, yeah, diversify my training to where, you know, if I don t have a competition scheduled, I m more focused on skill development and, you know, getting better and broadening my tool shed.
7
SPEAKER_00
But if I m like six weeks before comp, I really start amping up the intensity that I bring into the mats against bringing some of that visualization towards practice.
7
SPEAKER_00
And maybe I train less volume pre-competition, but higher output per session.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, what s a perfect week of training look like?
7
SPEAKER_00
If I m not in competition mode, I would say
7
SPEAKER_00
Monday, Wednesday, Friday twice, every other day just once.
7
SPEAKER_00
If I m pre-comp, just Monday to Sunday once a day.
7
SPEAKER_02
So that s on the mat, you re doing the full like positional training, live training.
7
SPEAKER_02
Bicep curls.
7
SPEAKER_00
Oh yeah, I do a lot of bicep curls.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I lift a few times a week now.
7
SPEAKER_02
Cardio or no?
7
SPEAKER_00
Cardio s all mad stuff.
7
SPEAKER_00
Cardio s all mad stuff.
7
SPEAKER_00
I do do some CrossFit workouts.
7
SPEAKER_00
I ll do some EMOMs or some AMRAPs or CrossFit terms.
7
SPEAKER_02
That s for Instagram?
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_00
But yeah, CrossFit is a good way to kind of push that threshold.
7
SPEAKER_00
Sometimes on the mat, because I m so good, I can t always get that full red line.
7
SPEAKER_00
So I ll hop in a CrossFit gym, and I ll do some workouts that bring me closer to death.
7
SPEAKER_02
What about you, Craig?
7
SPEAKER_02
What does a perfect week in training look like?
7
SPEAKER_02
Like when you re back home, training?
7
SPEAKER_03
I try to be at the gym twice a day, every day, when I m back, just because I travel a bit more than these guys.
7
SPEAKER_03
So I try to be there eight and 12 every day, hanging out in between.
7
SPEAKER_03
I usually train both of those sessions, depending on how my body feels.
7
SPEAKER_03
So doing positional, doing every technique, positional, live?
7
SPEAKER_03
I should probably do more positional, because I m just trying to work on wrestling and stuff, and especially leading up
7
SPEAKER_03
to the Volkanovsky s Last Fire, I was trying to wrestle more and focus on those areas even before I traveled over there, just some experimentation with some stuff.
7
SPEAKER_03
But yeah.
7
SPEAKER_02
How do you experiment with stuff?
7
SPEAKER_02
So there s regular positional stuff, but when you have ideas, do you do it during the training sessions or do you do it outside of that?
7
SPEAKER_02
Do you get together with somebody?
7
SPEAKER_03
Usually every session I show up with something I m thinking of.
7
SPEAKER_03
Usually something from top, maybe something from bottom.
7
SPEAKER_03
And then I just try to maybe pick the right people.
7
SPEAKER_03
Some people, obviously, I m just fighting to the death with.
7
SPEAKER_03
It s not a good time to experiment.
7
SPEAKER_03
And then others, obviously, you can play around with ideas on.
7
SPEAKER_02
Okay, what about you?
7
SPEAKER_02
What s a perfect week look like?
7
SPEAKER_02
Maybe, well, you said you re 100% now.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
So yeah, honestly, I have pretty much the same schedule as Nicky Rod.
7
SPEAKER_01
So Monday, Wednesday, Friday, I do twice a day, every other day, once a day.
7
SPEAKER_01
And then normally, noon practice is like our biggest class.
7
SPEAKER_01
That s where all the pros go in.
7
SPEAKER_01
So I tend to do more open rounds there.
7
SPEAKER_01
And then we have a 7 p.m.
7
SPEAKER_01
class as well, which is more hobbyist.
7
SPEAKER_01
And that s where I ll do my positional rounds and force myself to be put in bad positions.
7
SPEAKER_02
So you have, what, you do 8 a.m., 12, like in terms of what B team has, 8 a.m., 12, and 7 p.m.
7
SPEAKER_02
And the hobbyists are more 7 p.m.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
7
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
7
SPEAKER_02
Do you believe in overtraining?
7
SPEAKER_02
Do you think you can overtrain?
7
SPEAKER_00
I used to not believe in it, but then I got hurt.
7
SPEAKER_00
I was like, all right.
7
SPEAKER_02
Oh, you attribute that
7
SPEAKER_02
to overtraining the bicep?
7
SPEAKER_00
I think, dude, I m telling you, I trained, I lifted like a bodybuilder for like seven years.
7
SPEAKER_00
And by lifting, I mean, I was lifting seven days a week.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I trained arms most days.
7
SPEAKER_00
Like almost every day I would do like, you know, four or five sets and get a pretty good bicep pump.
7
SPEAKER_00
in addition to my lift, I think that had to contribute somewhat towards my training.
7
SPEAKER_02
What about on the actual mat overtraining, like spending too much time on the mat?
7
SPEAKER_02
Psychological, physical overtraining?
7
SPEAKER_00
I think you can definitely overtrain, but it s more of a, like as your body s healthy, you have to make sure your mind is sharp.
7
SPEAKER_00
Like sometimes,
7
SPEAKER_00
maybe taking a day away or even diverting your attention in a different aspect of training can help you be a little bit sharper overall.
7
SPEAKER_00
Sometimes it can get a little stagnant because you re doing the same stuff over and over.
7
SPEAKER_00
But I think if you just keep overtraining, then your overall baseline just gets higher and you become accustomed to that.
7
SPEAKER_02
What about you?
7
SPEAKER_02
You don t seem like a guy that overdosed.
7
SPEAKER_02
I ve heard of him.
7
SPEAKER_03
Never been close to it.
7
SPEAKER_03
I think controlling how hard you train is definitely protects you from injury.
7
SPEAKER_03
You know what I mean?
7
SPEAKER_03
Like if you re redlining yourself and then you re fighting to the death in the gym, that s 100% when you re going to get injured, going to get sick.
7
SPEAKER_03
So I try to make sure I ve had enough sleep.
7
SPEAKER_03
I ve had obviously enough food post-training and that sort of helps me to train a bit harder, but still try to avoid redlining myself too much.
7
SPEAKER_00
I think established also like what days are going to be your peak days.
7
SPEAKER_00
Cause you re, you throughout the week, if you re training seven days a week, you re going to have ups and downs.
7
SPEAKER_00
Like for me personally, when they, when Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, usually my best days.
7
SPEAKER_00
And besides that also have other great days.
7
SPEAKER_02
All my days are great, but Monday, Wednesday, Friday are also great.
7
SPEAKER_02
You re like, unable to admit that some days are rougher than others.
7
SPEAKER_02
I love it.
7
SPEAKER_02
I m always on, bro.
7
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
7
SPEAKER_02
What advice would you give to people who are not always on?
7
SPEAKER_02
Hobbyists.
7
SPEAKER_02
How to get better.
7
SPEAKER_02
Like people that are already there.
7
SPEAKER_02
I don t know.
7
SPEAKER_02
Purple bells, brown bells, black bells.
7
SPEAKER_02
They re just like doing like a couple of times a week or something like that.
7
SPEAKER_02
Like how to get better.
7
SPEAKER_00
I think being consistent, like find a schedule that you can consistently train.
7
SPEAKER_00
Maybe it s like, you know, three, four times a week or even a little bit less, just be consistent over the years.
7
SPEAKER_00
I think too often people are like, oh, I want to get really good really fast.
7
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, definitely takes a long time to get to where you want to be.
7
SPEAKER_02
What about what you re doing while being consistent?
7
SPEAKER_01
What kind of stuff you re working on?
7
SPEAKER_01
So honestly, I think one big thing for me, which is something I actually started doing once B team was formed, was filming all of your rounds and then watching it every day.
7
SPEAKER_01
Because you can see what specific problems you re having, and then you can base your positional rounds around those problems.
7
SPEAKER_02
That s really interesting.
7
SPEAKER_02
It s kind of depressing though.
7
SPEAKER_02
Like sometimes I have to, you know, I edited this podcast for a long time.
7
SPEAKER_02
I still do in part, and I hate the sound of my voice and like what I look like and stuff, but it does make you better.
7
SPEAKER_02
And I also hate the sound of Craig s voice and what he looks like.
7
SPEAKER_00
So editing this podcast will be especially difficult.
7
SPEAKER_02
This will be doubly difficult.
7
SPEAKER_02
But I m glad the rest of you are here.
7
SPEAKER_02
I don t know.
7
SPEAKER_02
Do you watch competition footage of yourself or no?
7
SPEAKER_02
Like to analyze, like to see.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s my confidence.
7
SPEAKER_00
That s fucking good.
7
SPEAKER_02
While you re doing curls?
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_03
I m trying also to watch it to boost my confidence.
7
SPEAKER_02
Is there advice you, Craig, you would give for hobbyists to get better?
7
SPEAKER_03
I mean, just not every round has to be a fight to the death, you know?
7
SPEAKER_03
I feel like you re going to get injured.
8
SPEAKER_03
but it s out that way, and you re not gonna learn as much.
8
SPEAKER_03
It s tough, I would say, just as a black belt who took Jiu-Jitsu very seriously for a very long time.
8
SPEAKER_03
Basically, when you become a hobbyist, your skill is basically slipping, your age and your skill.
8
SPEAKER_03
And so not taking stuff seriously is actually its own psychological skill of like, you re good.
8
SPEAKER_03
that it s tough, it s tough.
8
SPEAKER_03
It s tough in a way that is different when you re like a blue belt or something, that if you work hard and you train correctly, you re gonna get much better.
8
SPEAKER_03
Here, you re kinda... You re looking downhill.
8
SPEAKER_03
You re looking downhill, and you re like...
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I guess I m going to enjoy the art of it.
8
SPEAKER_02
Reframe the victory, you know?
8
SPEAKER_02
Like if it s a young, upcoming guy and he comes to meet you, you re like, well, that s a moral victory, you know?
8
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, but then that has to happen.
8
SPEAKER_03
You have to be able to not do that to avoid the injury sometimes, like if you want.
8
SPEAKER_03
So yeah, it s a different thing.
8
SPEAKER_03
Plus with me, just because some people recognize me,
8
SPEAKER_03
You have that probably, you guys definitely obviously have that.
8
SPEAKER_03
I ve solved that problem.
8
SPEAKER_02
How did you solve that problem?
8
SPEAKER_02
Travel around, you do a seminar, anything like that.
8
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_02
It s believable that you could get submitted once.
8
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_02
But if they catch you, give them a few.
8
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_02
If people tell their friends they submitted me to a seminar, one time, believable.
8
SPEAKER_02
They got me four or five times.
8
SPEAKER_02
You ve robbed them of that.
8
SPEAKER_03
Okay, that s pretty funny, but it s also, they have this energy, like they think, you know, they re coming in hot.
8
SPEAKER_03
I usually like to just basically get submitted quickly twice.
8
SPEAKER_03
And just, it changes everything.
8
SPEAKER_03
It makes it more fun.
8
SPEAKER_03
I ve noticed it.
8
SPEAKER_00
Let them submit you twice?
8
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, just like very quickly.
8
SPEAKER_03
Like, what are the options?
8
SPEAKER_00
We re not saying you re not.
8
SPEAKER_00
Make it last longer.
8
SPEAKER_03
Hold off.
8
SPEAKER_03
But then it s like, it s very hard to like, yeah, if you re a very serious competitor and so on, you take it seriously, then yes.
8
SPEAKER_03
But like, then people go, people, what they try to do, this probably is what happens to you guys, they try to impress you by going super hard.
8
SPEAKER_00
I have people every day come to my gym and try to take me out.
8
SPEAKER_00
I just stay sharp.
8
SPEAKER_00
Come to practice.
8
SPEAKER_00
Let s get it on.
8
SPEAKER_03
Do you feel that energy?
8
SPEAKER_03
I feel like I need to talk to Craig here first.
8
SPEAKER_03
Like at a seminar, somebody is coming in really hard, like a brown belt will come in and they really want to impress you with their technical side, they re a big fan, they ve been watching your DVDs, what do you do with a guy like that?
8
SPEAKER_02
I make a complete joke out of the role.
8
SPEAKER_02
Give them the pass, mess with them, do stupid shit.
8
SPEAKER_02
Rub them of the realness of it.
8
SPEAKER_02
Because it s stupid, I m not going to roll hard with strangers.
8
SPEAKER_02
I feel like you should roll with a circle of people you trust.
8
SPEAKER_02
Injuries.
8
SPEAKER_02
happen rolling hard with strangers, because that s the same way you get injured in competition, because you don t have that relationship with them.
8
SPEAKER_03
And I should also mention, that s probably not a good way to impress somebody is by just going ape shit, going 100%.
8
SPEAKER_03
Oh, yeah, that s not at all.
8
SPEAKER_03
I think the beauty of Jiu Jitsu is like the camaraderie of it.
8
SPEAKER_03
Like, as you get to know each other, it s technical, like different ideas you have and all that.
8
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_03
Okay.
8
SPEAKER_03
Do you think Gi Jiu Jitsu is dying in popularity, Craig?
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it s long dead.
8
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I have heard some numbers on the viewership for the Gi Worlds finals, and they don t even compare to the undercard of who s number one events.
8
SPEAKER_02
So I think when I was coming up and competing in the Gi all the time, you looked at those guys that won Black Belt World Championships, and you were in awe of them.
8
SPEAKER_02
It almost had that ADCC champion feel, but now that s not the case.
8
SPEAKER_02
You know, I just feel like that the younger generation aren t looking at who s winning black belt, Guy Wells.
8
SPEAKER_02
I personally don t think, and I don t think they re like, they want to be that guy.
8
SPEAKER_02
They want to be like a Rotolo, Gordon, you know, those are the people they want to emulate.
8
SPEAKER_02
So you think like the Gi, like Abj.J.F.
8
SPEAKER_03
Gi tournaments will just keep declining in popularity?
8
SPEAKER_02
I think people will still do it.
8
SPEAKER_02
I mean, it s easier, I think, as you re over 30, because the Gi is a bit of a slower thing, and the Masters participation is bigger in the Gi, because obviously no Gi is now heading in a wrestling direction.
8
SPEAKER_02
Wrestling and heel hooks, you re over 30, that s a terrifying prospect, you know?
8
SPEAKER_02
What s terrifying about the gi?
8
SPEAKER_02
Less.
8
SPEAKER_02
So I think in a participation rate, the IBGF will still be good, but I just don t think people are as interested as they used to be.
8
SPEAKER_03
Why is wrestling and heel hooks terrifying?
8
SPEAKER_03
Heel hooks I can vaguely understand, if you don t understand heel hooks.
8
SPEAKER_02
If you work a desk job and you ve never wrestled and a guy double legs you, that s gonna probably break your back.
8
SPEAKER_02
I think the older guys are scared of wrestling.
8
SPEAKER_02
It s hard to wrestle at 40.
8
SPEAKER_02
To learn wrestling at 40.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I mean, I think it s even just hard in general to do wrestling at 40, but it s easy to pull half guard in the game at 40.
8
SPEAKER_03
I think it s hard to do judo at 40, and people still do it at 40.
8
SPEAKER_03
Judo hurts more.
8
SPEAKER_03
Judo s scarier than all of them.
8
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_03
I think, does wrestling really hurt at 40?
8
SPEAKER_00
I don t know.
8
SPEAKER_03
I ve been looking at you.
8
SPEAKER_03
It does.
8
SPEAKER_03
Interesting.
8
SPEAKER_00
I agree with you saying that judo looks like the most dangerous.
8
SPEAKER_00
Even their practice partners, they re just getting slammed flat.
8
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, I did judo for a really long time.
8
SPEAKER_03
There s a lot of people that are 40, 50, 60 do judo.
8
SPEAKER_03
They re the ones that are still alive, though.
8
SPEAKER_03
It s true.
8
SPEAKER_03
Survivor bias.
8
SPEAKER_03
You do a little bit of judo, right?
8
SPEAKER_03
Me, I m a yellow belt.
8
SPEAKER_03
You re a yellow belt in Judo?
8
SPEAKER_03
I should be your instructor.
8
SPEAKER_02
Promote you to orange.
8
SPEAKER_02
I got a yellow belt in the sixth grade, I believe it was the sixth grade.
8
SPEAKER_02
I did it for about, I don t know, six months.
8
SPEAKER_03
But you re also using Judo in competition, basically.
8
SPEAKER_03
Aren t you doing like Harai type throw, like you re doing... Yeah, I don t know where I learned that.
8
SPEAKER_02
I just started doing it.
8
SPEAKER_03
You just started lifting your leg in various ways until the worst?
8
SPEAKER_03
Just figuring it out, yeah.
8
SPEAKER_03
doing different kinds of trips?
8
SPEAKER_03
I looked at the sandboat guys doing it, and I was like, can t be that hard.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_02
Gave it a crack.
8
SPEAKER_02
Well, they looked at your foot locks, and they said, that can t be that hard.
8
SPEAKER_02
They said, can t be that hard.
8
SPEAKER_02
Ban it from the tournaments.
8
SPEAKER_02
All right.
8
SPEAKER_03
What do you think is the best takedown in nogi jiu-jitsu?
8
SPEAKER_03
Like what?
8
SPEAKER_03
Like if people were trying to train for a competition and so on, like where you see the trends heading?
8
SPEAKER_00
I think the foot sweep is like catching fire nowadays.
8
SPEAKER_00
See a lot of foot sweeps, foot sweeps and arm drags, I would say pretty popular in our sport.
8
SPEAKER_00
Arm drag, she s just got arm drags, okay.
8
SPEAKER_00
Armdrag either to get to behind them or even just to cause reactions, make them pull away and we can start reattacking.
8
SPEAKER_02
Are you talking about it in a context of what s the best takedown to score?
8
SPEAKER_02
What s the safest takedown to mitigate the risk of
8
SPEAKER_02
guillotine submission or most effective in general?
8
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, most effective combined.
8
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, yeah.
8
SPEAKER_02
I mean, ultimately it s about scoring.
8
SPEAKER_02
I think any sort of body lock, you know what I mean?
8
SPEAKER_02
Locking your hands around the body, you ve been able to put it to the floor that way.
8
SPEAKER_02
I feel like that s most effective save.
8
SPEAKER_02
This might even have arisen out of a leg attack, a leg entry, upgrade to the body.
8
SPEAKER_02
What about like foot sweeps, like outside foot sweeps?
8
SPEAKER_00
I would say yeah, you know, foot sweeps from outside foot sweeps or even like something like you re tossed on a poor man s body and you re sweeping the foot.
8
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, those are all pretty safe.
8
SPEAKER_03
See, why is that scary?
8
SPEAKER_03
I don t understand.
8
SPEAKER_03
It s not scary at all.
8
SPEAKER_03
I think it s the lifts that are scary.
8
SPEAKER_03
The lifts, yeah.
8
SPEAKER_03
Who s lifting people?
8
SPEAKER_03
I m like, you re like a good lifter.
8
SPEAKER_03
Return?
8
SPEAKER_03
No, not you.
8
SPEAKER_03
I mean, in Master, like, we re talking about older guys doing no gigs.
8
SPEAKER_03
Some of those old bosses take it very serious, you know?
8
SPEAKER_03
They just start lifting.
8
SPEAKER_02
TRT Welts.
8
SPEAKER_02
TRT Welts.
8
SPEAKER_02
They re coming.
8
SPEAKER_02
They re coming to impress.
8
SPEAKER_03
Grab a lift.
8
SPEAKER_03
All right.
8
SPEAKER_03
Just for the gram.
8
SPEAKER_03
Okay.
8
SPEAKER_03
What about submission?
8
SPEAKER_03
What s your favorite submission?
8
SPEAKER_03
And what do you think is the most effective submission?
8
SPEAKER_03
Except the buggy choke.
8
SPEAKER_01
I would have to say the rear naked.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s definitely the one that s hit the most and the highest level of competition.
8
SPEAKER_03
That s pretty interesting to see you escape all of that and to put it on.
8
SPEAKER_03
That s the cool thing about EBI, to see the world-class athletes.
8
SPEAKER_03
I was surprised that it s possible to escape with you on his back.
8
SPEAKER_03
Gotta try some B cream.
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh, yeah.
8
SPEAKER_03
B cream?
8
SPEAKER_03
It helps?
8
SPEAKER_03
What s the formula, or is that a secret?
8
SPEAKER_03
That is a proprietary blend, for sure.
8
SPEAKER_03
But that s what you use for greasing.
8
SPEAKER_03
That s what you greased before.
8
SPEAKER_03
Allegedly.
8
SPEAKER_03
This is the other application outside of grappling?
8
SPEAKER_03
I m sure you can get creative.
8
SPEAKER_03
All right.
8
SPEAKER_03
Thanks.
8
SPEAKER_03
Asking for a friend.
8
SPEAKER_03
Is that RNC for you as well?
8
SPEAKER_03
You re naked?
8
SPEAKER_00
Rene Gachogue, I mean, overall favorite for solidifying a finish, because you can put somebody to sleep, right?
8
SPEAKER_00
Even if they don t want to tag, put them to sleep.
8
SPEAKER_00
But as far as something I ve been working on now that I m now starting to implement in competition, Yoko Senkaku s side triangle is a beautiful thing.
8
SPEAKER_00
You have multiple options.
8
SPEAKER_00
You have the triangle to finish.
8
SPEAKER_00
If that fails, you have the Komori.
8
SPEAKER_00
You could break the arm.
8
SPEAKER_00
You could also just transfer and take the back.
8
SPEAKER_00
So Yoko Senkaku, I m a big fan of, and I continue to progress and get better at it.
8
SPEAKER_03
Have you ever broken anyone s arm?
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh yeah, I mean the first few competitions, because I was a pretty athletic wrestler going against local black belts and brown belts.
8
SPEAKER_00
One of my first matches, I broke somebody at Kimura.
8
SPEAKER_00
Pretty much every time I ve got a heel hook, which is only twice I ve broken an opponent.
8
SPEAKER_00
If I have a joint lock, it s probably gonna break.
8
SPEAKER_00
A lot of times it breaks before they tap.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_03
You seem like a really friendly fella.
8
SPEAKER_03
How hard is it to break an arm?
8
SPEAKER_03
Or break a joint?
8
SPEAKER_00
Well, I don t think it s that hard.
8
SPEAKER_00
I think if you re talking about an arm bar, we have this position to where people are kind of holding on, holding on, and then it slips and their arm starts going, and then it just breaks before they even get a chance to tap.
8
SPEAKER_02
I love the sport.
8
SPEAKER_02
My kneebar had a guy and he didn t tap one time and it was actually, it was surprising.
8
SPEAKER_02
I had to put a lot of force into that, as opposed to arms, shoulders and the ligaments in the knees and ankles.
8
SPEAKER_02
But to fully, this kid, Sambo kid, fully let it go and he tapped and I think the angle is like up here.
8
SPEAKER_02
They re built different.
8
SPEAKER_02
Hopefully he can be reconstructed different.
8
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_03
All right.
8
SPEAKER_03
What about a straight foot lock?
8
SPEAKER_00
Do you guys do straight foot locks at all?
8
SPEAKER_00
I don t know.
8
SPEAKER_00
Uh, yeah, I mean, I m learning them now.
8
SPEAKER_00
We had some kid come, come into practice one day and like, fucking full on all of us, dude.
8
SPEAKER_00
With a straight full lock.
8
SPEAKER_00
Straight full lock.
8
SPEAKER_00
Just this little like Polish kid.
8
SPEAKER_02
Not only did he full lock everyone, but he told the entire world.
8
SPEAKER_02
He sent out fucking emails, called his friends and family.
8
SPEAKER_00
We practically put a hit out on him in practice and he just sucked everybody.
8
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, it s always interesting when you get like, yeah, people that specialize can surprise you that this could be effective stuff.
8
SPEAKER_03
Do you think there s other stuff that could be still discovered in Jiu-Jitsu?
8
SPEAKER_03
Like what areas do you think are ripe with techniques to discover?
8
SPEAKER_03
Like wrestling is really interesting now.
8
SPEAKER_03
There s a lot of innovation happening in wrestling.
8
SPEAKER_00
I think there ll be more innovation when we get people that are more adamant about standing up from bottom position.
8
SPEAKER_00
I think if we get more of the community, they re like, all right, I want to get off the bottom.
8
SPEAKER_02
Just stand up.
8
SPEAKER_02
Just stand up.
8
SPEAKER_02
How Jiu-Jitsu doesn t work.
8
SPEAKER_02
We actually changed the name.
8
SPEAKER_02
How Samba doesn t work if you just stand up.
8
SPEAKER_02
Did you really?
8
SPEAKER_02
All right.
8
SPEAKER_03
I ll change it to Jiu-Jitsu when I pirate it and send it for free to the entirety of the Soviet bloc.
8
SPEAKER_03
Do you think ego is useful for martial arts, or does it get in the way?
8
SPEAKER_00
Okay, I think you need to use it in both ways.
8
SPEAKER_00
For sure, have an ego if you re training competition, but also it can prevent you from learning and progressing if your ego s too high.
8
SPEAKER_00
You really have to shut the ego down when you re in the mode of learning and trying to develop skills, because you re gonna put yourself in these bad positions, you re gonna have issues with
8
SPEAKER_00
training partners that aren t necessarily up to your skill level, but because you re in these bad positions, you have to make these certain sacrifices.
8
SPEAKER_00
And for sure, ego can be a good or bad thing, but if you re able to shut the ego off and learn, then that ll have huge progression when it s time to put the ego into use during competition.
8
SPEAKER_03
When s the last time you shut the ego off?
8
SPEAKER_03
It s been a long time.
8
SPEAKER_03
What about you, Craig?
8
SPEAKER_03
You seem to be super easygoing.
8
SPEAKER_03
Is the ego just not part of it?
8
SPEAKER_02
Oh, for sure.
8
SPEAKER_02
I just don t want anyone to know they ve damaged my ego.
8
SPEAKER_02
You have to suppress it deep down.
8
SPEAKER_03
There s a child underneath all of it crying, always.
8
SPEAKER_02
For sure.
8
SPEAKER_02
I think ego s good for a bit of perseverance, you know?
8
SPEAKER_02
Like, it ll help you stick it out against a tough battle with a training partner, for sure.
8
SPEAKER_02
A bit of ego s on the line.
8
SPEAKER_02
Plus, the bands are back and forth.
8
SPEAKER_02
We re trying to, like, stir each other up a bit.
8
SPEAKER_02
Talking shit, yeah.
8
SPEAKER_02
I think that helps hone, sharpen the ego a bit.
8
SPEAKER_03
What about you?
8
SPEAKER_03
Do you seem like a super humble guy?
8
SPEAKER_03
Is there, like, a monster underneath?
8
SPEAKER_01
It s a total act.
8
SPEAKER_01
Who s in the basement?
8
SPEAKER_01
I definitely think ego s a big motivator.
8
SPEAKER_01
I think it s very good to have in the aspect that it ll drive you to want to be one of the best in the world.
8
SPEAKER_01
But like Nicky Rod said, you need to be able to turn it off in the training room and force yourself into bad positions where you may not be winning.
8
SPEAKER_03
Are there like, you know, Donna Hurst mentioned Boris, are there like grapplers, like Boris, this is a question from Reddit actually, Boris-like characters, anybody you ve trained with in the past who doesn t compete but is just an absolute beast in training?
8
SPEAKER_03
Like people you ve met that are just like...
8
SPEAKER_00
Well, somebody that I think has probably the best submission grappling in MMA, I think Gilbert Burns, his submission grappling is very, very good.
8
SPEAKER_00
I trained with him early on in my grappling career, and I was really impressed by his ability to move, hold down opponents that are trying to stand up.
8
SPEAKER_00
And as a whole, he can get submissions and put people away.
8
SPEAKER_03
When s the last time you trained with him, recently or no?
8
SPEAKER_03
No, it s been a few years.
8
SPEAKER_03
Which is an impressive ability to submit, you re saying?
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I d see Gilbert go against a few pretty decent black belts in the room and farewell, and maybe he gets to their back, puts a choke in, and it s like Gilbert s super high-level submission grappling.
8
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, but he s pretty widely recognized as a monster, so I don t know, you didn t really answer the question.
8
SPEAKER_03
I think you re not even listening anymore.
8
SPEAKER_03
I don t remember what was the question.
8
SPEAKER_03
Doesn t matter.
8
SPEAKER_03
Alright, is there people, like you ve done all these seminars, are there just, especially in the Eastern Bloc, you see...
8
SPEAKER_02
Like you went to Kazakhstan, is there killers out there?
8
SPEAKER_02
Oh yeah, there s tough guys out there.
8
SPEAKER_02
Obviously I don t remember the names, nor could I pronounce it if I did, but definitely some tough guys out there, obviously carrying skill sets over from wrestling for sure, not Sambo, but wrestling.
8
SPEAKER_02
But yeah, are there just people that surprise you, that just don t compete, that are really good?
8
SPEAKER_02
Have you met those?
8
SPEAKER_02
I feel like it s less so today, because there s so many more athletes in the sport, but definitely when I was coming up,
8
SPEAKER_02
Back like in Australia and stuff, there were guys I trained with that wouldn t compete and that would be like super tough rounds for me.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_02
And there s so many more avenues for competing in general.
8
SPEAKER_03
So, yeah.
8
SPEAKER_03
What about you?
8
SPEAKER_03
Have you met some monsters?
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, one guy I can think of in particular is Jason Rau.
8
SPEAKER_01
He trains up in Long Island, I think, right?
8
SPEAKER_01
Opened up his own gym out there.
8
SPEAKER_01
Vanguard.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, Vanguard.
8
SPEAKER_01
He used to compete, but he would never be able to compete at the same level he would train at.
8
SPEAKER_01
So now he s just focused on mainly, you know, opening up a gym and
8
SPEAKER_01
Teaching his students, but he was a guy that was you know extremely good in the training room.
8
SPEAKER_01
You know world-class I still think to this day.
8
SPEAKER_01
He s he s legitimately one of the best in the world, but just doesn t compete anymore Who wins in a fight a lion or a bear?
8
SPEAKER_03
Polo bath is for you right it no not a pole.
8
SPEAKER_03
Well.
8
SPEAKER_03
Yes.
8
SPEAKER_03
It s a good question See you re all the polar bears pretty impressive.
8
SPEAKER_02
No grizzly bear grizzly bear I Think a grizzly bear wins
8
SPEAKER_03
What s the most threatening predator in Australia?
8
SPEAKER_02
Kangaroo?
8
SPEAKER_02
It s a tricky question here, because everyone s scared of the animals in Australia, but, I mean, you get bitten by a snake, you get bitten by a spider, that s not that bad.
8
SPEAKER_02
Bear, America, bear will just hold you down and eat you.
8
SPEAKER_02
That s a much more terrifying prospect for me.
8
SPEAKER_02
Even sharks, sharks are going to be quick.
8
SPEAKER_02
No one sees the shot coming, the shot s just gonna bite you in half.
8
SPEAKER_03
A bear will take a bite and chew.
8
SPEAKER_02
A bear just holds you down and eats you.
8
SPEAKER_02
So that s frightening for me.
8
SPEAKER_02
Australia s a bunch of just weird shit that can kill you.
8
SPEAKER_03
Did you see Cocaine Bear, the movie that s coming out?
8
SPEAKER_02
I saw the trailer, it looks good.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah.
9
SPEAKER_02
So there s not every bear.
9
SPEAKER_02
There s like black balls and there s black balls.
9
SPEAKER_02
There s bears and there s bears So that I think that s what they often don t talk about everybody puts lions and bears in the same category.
9
SPEAKER_02
I think there s just some Weak bears a lion would kill a black bear.
9
SPEAKER_02
I think not every black again.
9
SPEAKER_02
I m trying to tell you there s But grizzly and polar bear I m betting on those
9
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_02
No, I think grizzlies have the size, but actually every video I ve seen of grizzlies, they tie out within like 20 seconds.
9
SPEAKER_02
They get bored.
9
SPEAKER_02
That s the gas tank?
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, the gas tank.
9
SPEAKER_00
That s a Nicky Ryan gas tank right there.
9
SPEAKER_00
That s all they got.
9
SPEAKER_02
And they try to just, they try to just take a breather.
9
SPEAKER_02
Like there s these crazy fights between bears and they last like 20 seconds.
9
SPEAKER_01
I heard this story about a Russian family that was attacked by a bear in Russia and killed the dad.
9
SPEAKER_01
And it took so long to eat the daughter, she made three phone calls to her mom while I was eating her.
9
SPEAKER_01
And the first call, the mom thought she was pranking her.
9
SPEAKER_01
That s crazy.
9
SPEAKER_01
That s way scarier than what we got there.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that s terrifying.
9
SPEAKER_01
Give me a snake bite any day.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_02
You know what, let me change the question.
9
SPEAKER_02
If you had to fight a bear or a lion, how would you try to defeat it?
9
SPEAKER_02
Do you think you have a chance at all?
9
SPEAKER_04
Well, I think I d attack a lion a little bit differently than I d attack a bear.
9
SPEAKER_02
What would be the difference?
9
SPEAKER_04
Okay.
9
SPEAKER_04
Well, I ve seen this video where lions are eating and you have three like screeny guys walk up behind them and kind of scare the cat off of their food.
9
SPEAKER_04
I think maybe I produced some props, scare the lion away, right?
9
SPEAKER_04
But if I have to fight it,
9
SPEAKER_04
If I have to fight it straight on, I mean, the thing is that even if you take the back, you can t bite it or choke it.
9
SPEAKER_04
The mane is too big to lock your hands around, you know?
9
SPEAKER_04
Are you sure about that?
9
SPEAKER_04
No, the mane is just hair.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, the mane is just hair.
9
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, it s thick hair.
9
SPEAKER_04
It s like matted hair, right?
9
SPEAKER_04
I don t know.
9
SPEAKER_04
So, I think... You think you can maintain chicken s back control in a lion?
9
SPEAKER_04
Maintain?
9
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, yeah.
9
SPEAKER_04
But getting there, I think I fake high, go low.
9
SPEAKER_04
Make them think I m going for the foot or something, a little paw sweep, and I take the back.
9
SPEAKER_02
What about a bear?
9
SPEAKER_02
I feel like they re easier, that might be easier to take, to hold back control.
9
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, maybe, the thing is, if the bear falls on its back, it s just gonna crush, it s so big, substantially bigger than a line, right?
9
SPEAKER_04
Like a full-grown grizzly.
9
SPEAKER_02
And they re also terrifyingly loud with their roars and stuff.
9
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, I think I think so.
9
SPEAKER_04
First of all, I saw grizzly.
9
SPEAKER_04
I m like, Oh, he s gonna attack me.
9
SPEAKER_04
I try to yell a little bit louder than them.
9
SPEAKER_04
Maybe the term a little bit like get more.
9
SPEAKER_04
And then, yeah, for sure.
9
SPEAKER_04
I try to get behind it.
9
SPEAKER_04
I probably go like, something weird, maybe like pull the eyes out or something, you know, for sure.
9
SPEAKER_04
I mean, I m going for the vital organs, you know, play dead, play dead, and then we ll check it.
9
SPEAKER_04
There s no there s no pride in that.
9
SPEAKER_02
Wow, pride even matters.
9
SPEAKER_02
See, the ego, the same advice you gave, you gotta put the ego aside with a bear.
9
SPEAKER_02
Even then, even then.
9
SPEAKER_02
How would you fight a bear or a lion?
9
SPEAKER_02
Just play dead?
9
SPEAKER_02
Play dead, yeah.
9
SPEAKER_02
Could you beat a kangaroo?
9
SPEAKER_02
A kangaroo?
9
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_04
Kangaroo?
9
SPEAKER_04
I d beat the shit out of a kangaroo.
9
SPEAKER_04
Dragon?
9
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
9
SPEAKER_04
I mean, are we boxing gloves?
9
SPEAKER_04
We just like... How would a kangaroo attack a human?
9
SPEAKER_04
Try to kick him with the claws.
9
SPEAKER_01
Knock him down, and then they chug him.
9
SPEAKER_01
Stand on that tail.
9
SPEAKER_02
Do the kangaroos do?
9
SPEAKER_02
They choke each other, yeah.
9
SPEAKER_02
They don t choke each other.
9
SPEAKER_01
You don t believe me?
9
SPEAKER_01
You want to watch a video?
9
SPEAKER_01
They choke each other out.
9
SPEAKER_04
I ve seen this, yeah.
9
SPEAKER_04
With which?
9
SPEAKER_01
With a headlock or what?
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, they knock him and just grip like this and hold him.
9
SPEAKER_01
What s the grip?
9
SPEAKER_00
They have like little paws.
9
SPEAKER_00
How are they gripping?
9
SPEAKER_00
I promise you, I m not lying to you.
9
SPEAKER_00
I m pretty sure I ve seen the video.
9
SPEAKER_01
They also do strange shit.
9
SPEAKER_01
Like if there s a predator around, they ll wait in a pool of water.
9
SPEAKER_01
And then if it comes to attack, they drown it.
9
SPEAKER_01
They re pretty smart.
9
SPEAKER_02
Okay, speaking of which, what s the most effective martial art for winning a street fight?
9
SPEAKER_02
You talked about rule sets and streets.
9
SPEAKER_02
I think you ve talked about being a street, have you ever been in a street fight?
9
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, just one.
9
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_02
Nothing special, nothing crazy, hey.
9
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, you don t talk about that time.
9
SPEAKER_02
Like for self-defense purposes,
9
SPEAKER_02
What would be your strategy on the street?
9
SPEAKER_02
What s advice?
9
SPEAKER_01
I feel like whoever wins the street fights, whoever s willing to take it the furthest, the fastest.
9
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
9
SPEAKER_01
If you re thinking that you re gonna box and he s biting you, poking your eyes, that guy s gonna win.
9
SPEAKER_01
He wants it more.
9
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
9
SPEAKER_01
That s why the crackheads fight.
9
SPEAKER_01
They go for the kill straight away.
9
SPEAKER_01
So I feel like it s more about who s willing to do the most that s gonna win that fight.
9
SPEAKER_01
Fastest, the most fastest.
9
SPEAKER_02
who s got the least to lose, you know?
9
SPEAKER_02
Okay, we could also define winning differently, because you could also run away.
9
SPEAKER_02
But in terms of technique-wise, wrestling, judo?
9
SPEAKER_04
I think if it s a one-on-one, I d go wrestler wins, but if it s like a multiple people, you gotta go Muay Thai, stay on your feet.
9
SPEAKER_04
Can t go down to the ground if it s more than one person.
9
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, big double leg, maybe.
9
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, double leg, put him asleep on the impact, right?
9
SPEAKER_04
Forehead to the ground.
9
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, what s the goal here?
9
SPEAKER_04
Is it to win the fight and not go to prison?
9
SPEAKER_02
I haven t thought of it through that way.
9
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, certainly, yeah.
9
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, not to kill the person.
9
SPEAKER_04
You got mutual combat here in Texas, we re good.
9
SPEAKER_04
Is that in Texas?
9
SPEAKER_02
Do you know what the paperwork for that looks like?
9
SPEAKER_02
Do you have to actually sign something?
9
SPEAKER_04
I hope I don t need to find out.
9
SPEAKER_04
I did hear a story where guys were on Sixth Street and they looked at a cop, they were like, mutual combat, mutual combat, and just got the cops to say yes and just duked it out.
9
SPEAKER_04
It could be false, though.
9
SPEAKER_01
That sounds crazy.
9
SPEAKER_01
I m just saying.
9
SPEAKER_02
I kind of admire that, but I ve also been playing Red Dead Redemption recently, so I ve internalized the cowboy a little too much.
9
SPEAKER_02
Just to return to gym stuff,
9
SPEAKER_02
No, because it s a business, because you re running a business, there s money involved, but you re also friends, but you re also training partners.
9
SPEAKER_02
Is there a tension that money creates that threatens to destroy friendships?
9
SPEAKER_02
That s something I always worry about with money.
9
SPEAKER_02
I try not to go do any kind of business with friends or family.
9
SPEAKER_04
I think if it were all very clear and honest and open at the start, it makes it much easier.
9
SPEAKER_04
I think people have issues when things are written in fine print and nobody knows the exact answers.
9
SPEAKER_01
And a lot of Jiu-Jitsu guys can t read.
9
SPEAKER_01
That makes it challenging as well.
9
SPEAKER_01
We re learning that today.
9
SPEAKER_01
Definitely complicated though.
9
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I mean, it s not always obvious how to be transparent and stuff about everything.
9
SPEAKER_02
Have you felt that tension?
9
SPEAKER_02
Because in the Jiu-Jitsu world, money s not really unlimited.
9
SPEAKER_02
Just running a school, what s that like?
9
SPEAKER_02
Because this is the first time you re running a school, running a gym.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I mean, it s just constantly updating people about what s going on, what your expectations are.
9
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
9
SPEAKER_01
We ve had some problems with coaches who I feel like think the pie is bigger than it is.
9
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
9
SPEAKER_01
They feel like maybe we re getting rich out of this and they re missing out on things.
9
SPEAKER_01
So it s like even amongst managing staff, that can be challenging too.
9
SPEAKER_01
So yeah, I mean, it s a constant work in progress to make, not only to make sure everyone s happy, but to make sure they re comfortable enough to reach out and tell you they re unhappy.
9
SPEAKER_01
But I feel like those challenges are common amongst any small business.
9
SPEAKER_02
Still, it sucks.
9
SPEAKER_02
Just to mention, I m clueless to this, but I m just now learning this.
9
SPEAKER_02
Somebody I met and talked to and I really like is Isaac.
9
SPEAKER_02
I just learned, because you re also active on Reddit.
9
SPEAKER_02
What s your name on Reddit?
9
SPEAKER_02
I think it s John Belushi s mom.
9
SPEAKER_01
As undercover as possible, you know?
9
SPEAKER_02
Oh, it s not you.
9
SPEAKER_02
It s actually John Belushi s mom, right?
9
SPEAKER_02
So I ve done my research, I guess.
9
SPEAKER_02
And I guess you guys had a falling out and have split.
9
SPEAKER_02
I just want to say that, I don t know, the few interactions I ve had with him, he s a beautiful human being.
9
SPEAKER_02
And that just shows to me- Visually, maybe not internally.
9
SPEAKER_02
And sexually, just the experience.
9
SPEAKER_02
No, he s just a kind person.
9
SPEAKER_02
I don t know.
9
SPEAKER_02
I liked him a lot.
9
SPEAKER_02
Like to me, in a business setting,
9
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, tensions are created and it sucks.
9
SPEAKER_02
I don t know.
9
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I suppose money, all the stuff that happened in the jungle aside, probably money had a role to play to create extra tension.
9
SPEAKER_02
Money and egos about like who is the leader, who is not the leader, it s tough.
9
SPEAKER_02
It s tough to manage that kind of stuff.
9
SPEAKER_02
I ve seen it happen with jiu-jitsu schools a lot.
9
SPEAKER_02
I don t know exactly what, because it s like, there is also a hierarchy inside
9
SPEAKER_02
grappling just with schools, like people that are better or not, there s literally ranks, black belt and brown belt, there s like competitors that are better.
9
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I don t, it s a weird dynamic in which to operate.
9
SPEAKER_02
Because like, usually, there s more politeness and like humanity
9
SPEAKER_02
layered into the way a company works.
9
SPEAKER_02
But here there s just a bunch of, I mean, it s like violence laid on display, plus money.
9
SPEAKER_02
It s crazy.
9
SPEAKER_02
Is there something you could say to that?
9
SPEAKER_02
Like how you try to minimize?
9
SPEAKER_02
Or something you want to comment on Isaac?
9
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it was an unfortunate situation, but it just didn t work out.
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You know, like, there s gonna be personality clashes.
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Some people... I can t imagine anyone having a personality clash with you.
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With me?
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Yeah.
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It s hard to imagine.
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Yeah, surprising, shocking.
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You know, I mean, I didn t even know what to say on that.
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I don t want to touch on it too much, but obviously,
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His expectations about his role in the gym, obviously different from ours, led to some personality clashes that were sort of unresolvable.
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You know, some things happen that can t be resolved.
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He can t fix those things.
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Obviously, a lesson, I hope for both of us, definitely a lesson.
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for me, from a management role, to try to address these things sooner.
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But also, sometimes I came up in a different time where there was no money, no opportunities.
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I had to pave that way totally for myself, especially coming from Australia.
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Being a professional athlete in jiu-jitsu was not a thing, so I had to pave a lot of opportunities for myself.
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I feel like sometimes
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Oh, I don t know what the right word is.
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Sometimes people don t appreciate some of the ways you help them, and they just think, feel like almost they deserve or are entitled to certain things, and that is very difficult to manage.
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But I think, again, we both see the situation different.
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I do hope he finds a better, a more comfortable place to train.
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But yeah, obviously, I ve known him for a long time, sort of like a brotherly relationship, so that s going to really
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make personal problems a lot worse when you re that close to someone, you know?
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I just hate it that like, I ve seen in Jiu-Jitsu especially, but in other places where like close friendships were destroyed because of like gym stuff, like people running gyms.
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And it just, as a person who is in this case, just a fan, but in like in general, just like a student, it s like sucks.
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But again, in my position, sometimes I wonder if there really was a friendship or mere opportunity.
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I have to be careful of that with some people in the sport.
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Is it a sincere relationship or, I mean, it s difficult for me to tell, or am I a means to an end?
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Sure, but I think it s actually a trade-off because I think a lot of close friendships we have, even relationships we have, when tested,
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can break if they re not properly communicated.
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Some of it could be just misunderstanding for a prolonged period of time.
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It s not explained through just a lack of integrity.
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It s just like you have to talk through that shit, just be honest with each other.
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Take some MDMA and really get down to it.
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Exactly, drugs solve everything.
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You ve already heard it from this conversation.
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I ve actually haven t done MDMA yet.
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People say that that s something I would enjoy a lot, because my brain is, I think, natural on MDMA.
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I d recommend it for sure.
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For sure, all right.
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Is that what you did with Gabby on Valentine s?
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Okay, never mind.
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She drugged me.
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In general, why does there always seem to be drama in the Jiu-Jitsu world?
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Like outside of what s going on here?
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Or is it just the... I think it s universal to anything.
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Drama s everywhere?
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And then drama rises to the surface?
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Drama makes the money.
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Yeah.
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I wish there was a little bit less.
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You have a bunch of, like we mentioned some of them, you have a bunch of instructionals out.
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What are some interesting things that you re looking forward to exploring in terms of teaching?
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So Just Stand Up is your most recent one, right?
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Yeah, you also have one called Power Bottom, an inclusive modern approach to the guard.
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What are some other ones?
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False Reap Allegations.
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False Reap Allegations, yeah.
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By the way, people talk about Powerbot, again, hilarious title, but they say it s a really good instructional, unlike The Guard.
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Yeah, I try to at least be innovative, you know, like everyone else I feel like is ripping off John and Gordon, putting some sort of slants on that, so I m trying to take sort of a different approach.
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I think you can actively influence the sport.
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With what you release because people are gonna try to emulate that so I think That s those type of instructions.
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Just stand up power bottom like approaching the sport differently I think definitely has a positive impact on the how people play the game.
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Yeah, you working on something now
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Probably a fundamentals course, just because we re bringing out, we have the White Belt program coming in, so I m trying to develop a fundamentals course along the line of the constraint-based learning stuff we were talking about today, like a way to approach learning as a beginner to sort of speed up the process a bit and not make it as so technique-dense, at least have it a bit more fun.
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And focusing in on just like examples of problems to solve.
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Exactly, yeah.
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Approaching judicially learning that way.
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Like, I mean, kids learn quick through games, I think.
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adults are capable of that to a certain extent as well.
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You re releasing that instructional on pre-match preparation?
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Yes.
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What other stuff?
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Do you have anything on a body lock pass?
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Yeah, I have a body lock or body lock DVD or instructional.
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Yeah, I have the pre-match ritual coming out.
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I also have, I m filming how to build athleticism for grappling.
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I m just really trying to capture different angles, kind of like the same, you know, what Craig s doing, trying not to do the same thing that everybody else does, you know?
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There s a ton of wrestling, a ton of jujitsu instructional, so.
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And the steroid results are coming out.
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Oh, yeah, yeah.
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More plates, more dates, you know, Derek runs that.
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Hit me up for a blood panel test, like an impromptu thing, and I did it a few days ago, and I believe the results will come out shortly.
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Oh, yeah.
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Do you know the results?
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What are you betting on, Lex?
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What do you think?
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It s hard to believe.
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Yeah, it s very impressive.
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You re putting me in an awkward position here.
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Do you think you ll face Gordon soon?
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I m open to it.
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I don t know how soon, maybe in the next six months.
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I could see me facing him before ADCC Worlds.
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I think that s a great rivalry.
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I think it s a really interesting one.
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It s fun for me.
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Is there any chance that the two, the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany get back together?
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That DDS, under whatever name, gets back together?
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No, absolutely not.
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Highly unlikely.
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I mean, we kind of did this to back up Nicky Ryan and we re sticking with our guy.
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So what do you think?
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Yeah, I think there s just too many personality conflicts for it to really ever work again.
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Do you think there will always be war in the world?
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War?
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Yeah.
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Oh yeah, I think from the beginning of time it s been, you know, some kind of war, some kind of battle.
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Controversy is what helps people evolve.
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until AI, super intelligent AI, becomes way more powerful than humans and humbles all of us with its power before it destroys us.
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Well, until it runs out of batteries.
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You guys are screwed.
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I m really fortunate to be able to hang out with you, to train with you, and thank you so much for talking today.
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That s the best ending.
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Thanks for listening to this conversation with Craig Jones, Nikki Rodd, and Nikki Ryan.
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To support this podcast, please check
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out our sponsors in the description.
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And now let me leave you with some words from Miyamoto Musashi.
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You must understand that there s more than one path to the top of the mountain.
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Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.