1
SPEAKER_00
 are.
1
SPEAKER_00
Everyone is lovable.
1
SPEAKER_00
Everyone is cherishable.
1
SPEAKER_00
All of us.
1
SPEAKER_00
Not because somebody's more beautiful or somebody's more famous or somebody's more attractive or rich or something like that.
1
SPEAKER_00
But it's hard because we're given the message of you're better if you look this way, act this way, do this way, live here, drive this.
1
SPEAKER_00
 It's a lot to break out of and so I think that, and those narratives even go deeper than materialism.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's almost like as a kid, many kids were taught, they almost felt like you grow up with a parent who's not attentive in any way or not interested of well I'm not, they're not paying attention because I'm not interesting, I'm not enough.
1
SPEAKER_01
 And I get attention when I excel in something that they like and so let me do more of that to get more attention.
1
SPEAKER_01
And if I lose at that, then they're not going to love me.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's exactly right.
1
SPEAKER_00
So it all becomes like people think like if I do these things, then I can be loved rather than you're just lovable.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so that's where most people lose the plot.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think the other piece, those people don't understand narcissism.
1
SPEAKER_00
 I think that a lot of people say, oh, come on, everyone can change or some, I just got to get to know them better.
1
SPEAKER_00
Or they don't really mean that.
1
SPEAKER_00
We enable it, we justify it.
1
SPEAKER_00
But if people really got to learn like, no, that's unacceptable.
1
SPEAKER_00
That tantrum they just threw, not okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
That entitled behavior, not okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
And honestly get to the point where I don't care why they're behaving like this, they're behaving like this.
1
SPEAKER_01
 So how do you create boundaries with a narcissist?
1
SPEAKER_00
It's not easy.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I think that narcissistic people, the key with a narcissistic person is to detect it early, set boundaries early, because then they get disinterested and they walk away.
1
SPEAKER_00
You're not an easy mark anymore, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
So charm and charisma come walking in the door.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think I'm the only person in the world who's telling people, if you meet someone charming and charismatic, run away.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, get away from them.
1
SPEAKER_00
This is dangerous.
1
SPEAKER_01
But are there some people that are charming and charismatic who aren't narcissistic?
1
SPEAKER_00
 Yeah, but I'm all about throwing the baby out with the bathwater at this point.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because charming, charismatic people, I would say that always make sure they have humility.
1
SPEAKER_00
If you have the humility back, then you're okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's the unicorn.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's when you're like, they're charming and they're humble.
1
SPEAKER_00
 They're all that, they're incredible, and they're like, listen, you know, I'm great, can you just tell me about you a little bit, talk a little bit about you?
1
SPEAKER_00
There's a humility.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's a keeper in your life.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that's a keeper.
1
SPEAKER_00
Or you can see how they're talking to other people, they're interested in other people, they're not talking down to people, maybe because, let's say they're in a service position.
1
SPEAKER_00
They care.
1
SPEAKER_00
That evening, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
That they're not, and not in a smarmy, like, oh, the server's my best friend, but they're not like,
1
SPEAKER_00
 Yeah, it's none of that.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's really like oh, let me wait for the server to come along and see if I can get or what I mean They're they're just really they're present in a situation.
1
SPEAKER_00
They're not elitist.
1
SPEAKER_00
They're not status conscious That kind of humility, you know that they don't brag, you know that they're all that and they're not going on about how all that that they are That's cool.
1
SPEAKER_00
They're not talking about.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, let me tell you about my new this and my new that and this accomplishment and
1
SPEAKER_00
 and might, nah, they're actually able to be with you, be present with you.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's rare because, again, people who are that hyped up, they're hyped up from all sides.
1
SPEAKER_00
You have to be really resistant, authentic, self-actualized to not drink the Kool-Aid.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
What else do we need to know about narcissists?
1
SPEAKER_01
Is there anything else you think that's important for us?
1
SPEAKER_00
 I think that- One in five of your friends is a narcissist.
1
SPEAKER_00
Again, if we're using this number of 20%, okay, which I don't think is a bad number, to be honest with you.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think that just ... I mean, it's a spitball number, and it's just sort of boiled up in this world, and it may be ...
1
SPEAKER_00
 Fervent myth.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don't know.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's hard to get good data on this, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, it's it's the assessment of narcissism is one of the hardest things in the business of measurement and psychology Because who's gonna be honest about it, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
There's all these back doors We try to do to figure it out But I'd say the other things I let's talk a little bit about what happens to a person who's been in a relationship with a narcissist Because I think that we've been talking we've been so much focus on the narcissist.
1
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The question is what if I've just been through this and
1
SPEAKER_01
 Is there a sense of PTS that you're gonna face?
1
SPEAKER_00
A lot of PTS.
1
SPEAKER_00
You'll see it's a, there's confusion, self-doubt, a sense of powerlessness, helplessness, sometimes even hopelessness, anxiety, a lack of not feeling motivated anymore, sort of sense of like, I can't be bothered with life, rumination, regret, something we call euphoric recall.
1
SPEAKER_00
You remember the good parts of the relationship and say, why can't we have that part again?
1
SPEAKER_00
I'm like, well, no, because that part wasn't really
1
SPEAKER_00
 It wasn't real.
1
SPEAKER_00
It was like this explosive... When people have physical symptoms, they have trouble sleeping because of the rumination.
1
SPEAKER_00
They might find themselves engaging in less behaviors that are involved, like self-care behaviors we call them, like things like...
1
SPEAKER_00
 working out or eating well or even taking their medications on time.
1
SPEAKER_00
They just almost let themselves go because being in these relationships is just basically like completely being, you know, overwhelmed by them.
1
SPEAKER_00
So people aren't in good shape when they're coming out of these relationships.
1
SPEAKER_00
It doesn't number.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because they'll start beating themselves up.
1
SPEAKER_01
How could I stay in this?
1
SPEAKER_01
What was I thinking?
1
SPEAKER_00
I'm an idiot, you know.
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, that's the worst part.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's the self-blame and the self-shame.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because the self-blame is this is my fault.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'm the one who stayed.
1
SPEAKER_00
I should have known.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then, I'm a fool.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And then a lot of people go back.
1
SPEAKER_00
Why?
1
SPEAKER_00
Because they think, let's talk a little bit, I want my whiteboard.
1
SPEAKER_00
I got to use the whiteboard.
1
SPEAKER_00
So let's talk about the narcissistic relationship cycle, okay?
1
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Step one.
1
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 is something called love bombing.
1
SPEAKER_00
Love bombing is that big, seductive, exciting experience that happens early in a relationship.
1
SPEAKER_00
We have a magical connection.
1
SPEAKER_00
Let's have a picnic on the beach.
1
SPEAKER_00
 wild and crazy sex, texting for 12 hours straight.
1
SPEAKER_00
Good morning, princess.
1
SPEAKER_00
Good night, my darling.
1
SPEAKER_00
Let's take a vacation for our third date.
1
SPEAKER_00
I want you to meet all my friends.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'm so into you.
1
SPEAKER_00
Let's move in after a month my lease is up.
1
SPEAKER_00
Love, Bommi.
1
SPEAKER_00
 It's exciting, it's intoxicating, it's seductive, and what it does, it's a narcissist ground game.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's how they're able to get you to not notice all the red flags, because you're so focused on the 10 dozen roses on your doorstep that you're like, or the unreal sex you're having, or these amazing, like, constantly being these text messages, or going to San Francisco on your fourth date, you know, and you're thinking like, okay, what red flags?
1
SPEAKER_00
I'm having my fairytale.
1
SPEAKER_00
The minute the narcissist knows they've got you,
1
SPEAKER_00
 When you kind of let down your guard, because some people are like, this seems too good to be true.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then they're like, okay, I love you too.
1
SPEAKER_00
Boom.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's the day something called devaluing starts.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Now, devaluing is characterized by invalidation, little digs.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, oh my gosh, you know, my ex-girlfriend could cook.
1
SPEAKER_00
Or, you know, it's like the digs.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's little, it's subtle.
1
SPEAKER_00
You're like, where did this go?
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, where's this?
1
SPEAKER_00
Because it's not feeling so good.
1
SPEAKER_00
And people in devaluing are confused as heck.
1
SPEAKER_00
They're thinking, how do I get back here?
1
SPEAKER_00
Now they start blaming themselves.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Because it was this, now it's this, it must be me.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh my gosh.
1
SPEAKER_01
Now then we go to... I just feel like you're going through my life right now.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
We go to something called the discard.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Now, the discard is not always a breakup, okay?
1
SPEAKER_01
Is this where they won't speak to you for two weeks?
1
SPEAKER_00
It's the silent treatment, it's the deeper level manipulation, it could be infidelity, it could be significant lying, it could be, sometimes even the other person leaves the relationship at this point, like the not-narcissistic person leaves, okay?
1
SPEAKER_00
They're like, I'm out.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'm out, I can't do this.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then comes a phase called hoovering.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Hoovering is when the narcissist tries to suck you back in.
1
SPEAKER_00
They don't like to lose.
1
SPEAKER_00
And in the majority of cases, once after the discard, they're gone.
1
SPEAKER_00
Try to woo you back.
1
SPEAKER_00
Try to woo you back.
1
SPEAKER_00
Love bombing part two.
1
SPEAKER_00
Now, love bombing part two is never as heavy as love bombing part one.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's always love bombing light the second time around.
1
SPEAKER_00
But it'll be like, maybe what was I thinking?
1
SPEAKER_00
You're the best thing that ever happened to me.
1
SPEAKER_00
And this could be because they cheated on you.
1
SPEAKER_00
 and they say things like you're so much better and you know what people fall for that because that's that triangulation dynamic that idea very edible that you're the favored child that you're the favored one and the hoovering is choosing you
1
SPEAKER_00
 Then in the part of the hoovering is a dynamic called, you're going to love this one is my guess after the way you've been putting it, future faking.
1
SPEAKER_00
Future faking is, no, as soon as this deadline is done, we're going to, or I'm going to get therapy, or I know, let's just put it off for another six months.
1
SPEAKER_00
For sure, I'm going to do it then.
1
SPEAKER_00
They keep moving the goalposts.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And future faking is what keeps people in the game because they're like, they're promising the thing you want six months.
1
SPEAKER_00
We're gonna have kids.
1
SPEAKER_00
We're gonna have kids.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, for sure.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, like I just need to get my career established.
1
SPEAKER_00
And now you're 50 and you don't have kids.
1
SPEAKER_00
Or we're gonna, you know, we're gonna definitely move closer to your parents.
1
SPEAKER_00
I know we had talked about moving back there.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I know you said there's some better opportunities for you.
1
SPEAKER_00
You're waiting.
1
SPEAKER_00
Or I'm gonna get into therapy.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'm gonna work on these anger issues.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then if you push it,
1
SPEAKER_00
 God, you know what?
1
SPEAKER_00
You're really impatient.
1
SPEAKER_00
You're not a nice person.
1
SPEAKER_01
Interesting when I'm going through my life and I need time and yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's the cycle of every narcissistic relationship.
1
SPEAKER_00
Not everybody gets hoovered, okay?
1
SPEAKER_00
Sometimes the narcissist moves into something else and then they're done.
1
SPEAKER_00
So people sometimes feel bad if they're not hoovered.
1
SPEAKER_00
They're like, what's wrong with me?
1
SPEAKER_00
It doesn't always happen and consider yourself lucky.
1
SPEAKER_00
I always say the lucky are not hoovered because then it goes back to, the cycle goes again and again and again.
1
SPEAKER_01
 So, what is hoovering again?
1
SPEAKER_00
Hoovering is when they try to woo you back in, suck you back in.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, they bring you back in.
1
SPEAKER_00
And they'll do that if, let's say, they're the one who left you, okay?
1
SPEAKER_00
And you finally start getting your life in order.
1
SPEAKER_00
And maybe you're dating someone else and they find out that's when they want you back.
1
SPEAKER_00
They just want to mess your stuff up.
1
SPEAKER_00
Or you're in a good place and you've got a job, they don't want you happy.
1
SPEAKER_00
They don't like losing.
1
SPEAKER_00
And they don't like the idea of anyone else winning.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's all about domination.
1
SPEAKER_00
 So I tell people, maybe you could get a good trip to San Francisco and a couple of flowers and get out before you get in too deep.
1
SPEAKER_01
But if that happens where they'll give you a month or six weeks or two months of love bombing on you, and then you're like, you know what?
1
SPEAKER_01
I'm not in the right place, this isn't for me, it's not you, it's me, I'm not ready, they're gonna get mad.
1
SPEAKER_01
So either way, once you go on the first weekend love bombing extravaganza, you're kind of sunk.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Yeah, because and they're they actually get out there.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, they want to get out.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know the first weekend you want to get out I listen here's an interesting tell on narcissistic people and it's it applies more in LA than in a place like New York they They they drive really badly.
1
SPEAKER_00
They drive dangerously They cut people off and they come up on their bumpers and they cut people off.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh my gosh, and that's actually been documented in that's it So a narcissist is a bad driver driver
1
SPEAKER_00
 Dangerous driver not bad not like dumb driver fast cut people off Hong Kong driver anything else we should talk about last thing.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
Give it to me gaslighting Oh, I wanted to ask that I had a gas lighting is the word of our time and if nothing else I want your podcast is so amazing that I want to make sure that people bring get things right here.
1
SPEAKER_00
So what is gaslighting gaslighting is the denial of a person's reality and
1
SPEAKER_00
 And the taking a part of another person so that they have completely not only given up on their reality, they've given up on themselves.
1
SPEAKER_00
So let me say that in a little bit more of a clear way.
1
SPEAKER_00
Gaslighting is a grooming process.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's not a one-off, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
So let's say a day like today, we'd set up our shoot and everything.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And I would say, and we had our time, we were going to meet the date.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I said, you never said we're meeting on that day.
1
SPEAKER_00
And you'd be like, what?
1
SPEAKER_00
And then you'd go back to your email and say, no, it's right there, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
But for a minute, you might have doubted yourself.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don't have that much power to gaslight you because we don't really know each other.
1
SPEAKER_00
Maybe you trust me a little, but it would be enough to throw you off for a minute and
1
SPEAKER_00
 Did I not send that email right?
1
SPEAKER_00
And you catch yourself, okay?
1
SPEAKER_00
The reason it's called a grooming process is it happens over and over again.
1
SPEAKER_00
I never said that.
1
SPEAKER_00
I never did that.
1
SPEAKER_00
You're being too sensitive.
1
SPEAKER_00
Stop making such a big deal about that.
1
SPEAKER_00
You really aren't committed to this relationship.
1
SPEAKER_00
And they keep saying things to you that are not your reality.
1
SPEAKER_00
So what do people do when they're gaslighted initially?
1
SPEAKER_00
They defend themselves.
1
SPEAKER_00
No, no, no.
1
SPEAKER_00
You did.
1
SPEAKER_00
You really did.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, you said that.
1
SPEAKER_00
 I'm not being too sensitive.
1
SPEAKER_00
And now you're getting more and more worked up, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
And then they'll say things to you like, oh, yikes, somebody is a little bit crazy.
1
SPEAKER_00
Have you seen a therapist?
1
SPEAKER_00
So now what are they doing?
1
SPEAKER_00
Not only have they doubted your reality and you're a little off balance, then boom.
1
SPEAKER_00
 They close it by saying there's something wrong with oh, man, you start believing it.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, wow.
1
SPEAKER_00
Many people are gaslighted We'll start wondering maybe I'm the narcissist.
1
SPEAKER_00
Maybe I have a mental illness.
1
SPEAKER_00
Maybe I need to get help There's something wrong with me.
1
SPEAKER_00
And at that point the gaslighter is
1
SPEAKER_00
 Fully controls this person.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh my gosh, that's the process and so but the initially the gap the person who's being gaslighted Has some level of trust in the gaslighter.
1
SPEAKER_00
Maybe they're in a new relationship together.
1
SPEAKER_00
Maybe this is a family member Maybe it's a boss or a respected colleague.
1
SPEAKER_00
You got to have a little of that from the jump There has to be some skin in the game for someone to be able to gaslight someone
1
SPEAKER_00
 then they're groomed.
1
SPEAKER_00
Now let's say the first time someone gaslights you say uh no here's the email this is the time you said we're meeting and don't ever do that to me again.
1
SPEAKER_00
The gaslighter's probably going to move on to a new target.
1
SPEAKER_01
They'll stop with you.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah because yeah so they'll say like oh this is not a fertile target I'm going to move on to another one.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Early on, when a person says you're being too sensitive, say, no, that's my emotion.
1
SPEAKER_00
Don't you dare play judge and jury on my emotions.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'm sad right now.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'm going to stick with that.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's what I'm talking about.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's a good one.
1
SPEAKER_00
Then the gaslighter will probably lose interest, but they'll always get their last dig in.
1
SPEAKER_00
 She's just a really difficult person.
1
SPEAKER_00
So they'll still have to get their parting shot and say I I'll wear that as a badge of honor But you but just look how solid you have to be in yourself and understand gasoline In fact, I'm doing a gaslighting seminar on Saturday literally three hours all gaslighting because that's how much People are confused by this it happens at work.
1
SPEAKER_00
It happens in families.
1
SPEAKER_00
It happens in relationships It happens from the world at large like no every everyone can every all the playing fields equal
1
SPEAKER_00
 And then the people are like, it can't be equal, because like, you're a good shot.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's gaslighting.
1
SPEAKER_01
So the first time you feel like someone's gaslighting you, what should you say?
1
SPEAKER_01
Without them saying, because I feel like this happened to me in a previous relationship where I'd be like, no, I never said that.
1
SPEAKER_01
And then it was like, they'd bring up three other things that were unrelated to try to confuse.
1
SPEAKER_01
And be like, well, you, this, this, this, this.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I'd be like, just focus on the one thing we're talking about.
1
SPEAKER_01
And so I have to go around all these other things and talk about them, where I forget what we were talking about in the first place.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's gaslighting.
1
SPEAKER_00
 It's exhausting.
1
SPEAKER_01
It's like, let's just focus on this thing.
1
SPEAKER_00
 So a great example, a gaslighting thing that people will do is they will say something like, in a relationship, and you know, I'm really uncomfortable with how much time you've been spending with that person, and there's been a lot of communication between the two of you, like, it doesn't feel good.
1
SPEAKER_00
It doesn't feel good to me, it feels shady, it feels like a boundary violation, like, this isn't okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
They'll hit back with,
1
SPEAKER_00
 Let's go back to when you were in college and you're like, wait a minute, and then you know what I tell people?
1
SPEAKER_00
Have a whiteboard, say, okay, I'm gonna table that.
1
SPEAKER_00
We'll get to that, let's write that down.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don't want us to not talk about it.
1
SPEAKER_01
Let's go back to the original issue.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, go back to the original issue.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then they'll get mad.
1
SPEAKER_00
They'll get mad.
1
SPEAKER_00
They won't discuss.
1
SPEAKER_01
So how do you find resolve?
1
SPEAKER_00
You don't find resolve.
1
SPEAKER_01
In these relationships.
1
SPEAKER_00
There's no resolve.
1
SPEAKER_00
There is no closure.
1
SPEAKER_00
And that's the radical acceptance.
1
SPEAKER_01
 So you just gotta accept this person isn't going to have these conversations.
1
SPEAKER_01
This person's not going to have rationality for certain things.
1
SPEAKER_01
It's gonna be their way or the highway and they won't be flexible.
1
SPEAKER_01
And you've either gotta live with it and accept it for a certain period of time or you can choose to move on.
1
SPEAKER_01
But being in an argument is only gonna make your life worse.
1
SPEAKER_00
And you might say, that seems lonely, yeah, and so I have worked with people who've stayed in long-term narcissistic relationships who have done everything from
1
SPEAKER_00
 get very involved in like a religious community, church community, something like that, to do a lot of things with their friends, really build friendships, volunteer.
1
SPEAKER_01
Unless the narcissist tries to control them.
1
SPEAKER_00
They do.
1
SPEAKER_00
If you have a controlling narcissist, none of this will work.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like malignant narcissists, it won't work.
1
SPEAKER_00
But if you can build out friendships, if you can build out collegial relationships, if you're working, church community, some people do this in online communities if they're not able to easily
1
SPEAKER_00
 get out of the house and have friendships that way, develop hobbies.
1
SPEAKER_00
They care deeply about a garden, building something, whatever their groove is, music, something like that.
1
SPEAKER_00
I've known people that have lovers, you know, to say, like, I haven't, my body hasn't been touched in 15 years.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so they'll do that and they'll say, I felt a little guilty, but they're having sex with other people.
1
SPEAKER_00
I haven't been touched.
1
SPEAKER_00
And they're like, you know, I know I'm not, like, I know I'm not very attractive, but they found, everyone's got someone, everyone finds someone and they find their someone.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so I've heard it all.
1
SPEAKER_00
I've heard people do all kinds of things.
1
SPEAKER_00
 finding their way to get that support when they have to stay.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because that's where you get un-gaslighted, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
A person saying, no, that's not okay, or this person's conduct isn't okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
But I think where most people destroy themselves is they're like a moth to flame.
1
SPEAKER_00
They're like, I can fix this.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I'm telling you here, you can't.
1
SPEAKER_00
Stop trying to fix it.
1
SPEAKER_00
Stop trying to fix it.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's just not going to work.
1
SPEAKER_00
 That was probably my challenge is I wanted to fix which again your athletic background.
1
SPEAKER_00
It makes sense I mean there are people who have had a track record of being able to get things done They're the ones who are very vulnerable to staying in these relationships, too I think I was I think I was attracted to it and then vote and then one of the state active and then I was just like it just becomes exhausting when it's a when it's a
1
SPEAKER_01
 Full energy on someone else as opposed to a combination of let's work together on a shared vision towards our relationship, towards life, not all the energy in one place.
1
SPEAKER_00
Correct, correct.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it is very draining.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think a lot of people do feel like
1
SPEAKER_00
 you know, a good relationship is me doing everything they ask or catering to them.
1
SPEAKER_00
No relationship is, yeah, being unselfish.
1
SPEAKER_00
No, it's about give and take.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'm not saying transactional give and take.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's that you feel supported enough that when they say, hey, do you mind going to this dinner for work?
1
SPEAKER_00
And you're like, of course I'll go to that dinner for work because you care about them.
1
SPEAKER_00
And even if you both think it's ridiculous, you're kind of giggling at each other or, you know, having fun with it is that you understand that there's a give and take and you give graciously.
1
SPEAKER_00
 and the other person gives graciously.
1
SPEAKER_00
This isn't just about grinding your teeth and being irritated, you have to go, but really that giving with grace.
1
SPEAKER_00
But I'll be frank with you, it really comes down, though, to finding somebody who has a good personality.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I keep using this word agreeableness, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
So being agreeable.
1
SPEAKER_00
And that's actually a personality style.
1
SPEAKER_00
Agreeableness.
1
SPEAKER_01
So how do you know when someone's agreeable?
1
SPEAKER_00
All those things I talk about, flexibility and warmth and kindness.
1
SPEAKER_01
Just the time, just seeing it over time and seeing their words for their actions.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Agreeable men make less money agreeable men make less money The research has shown that pretty clearly bless their hearts.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so for everyone out there who wants somebody who's got the money and the stuff The probability that that person's going to be agreeable is a lot lower You just need to find a unicorn someone who's agreeable and who has money.
1
SPEAKER_01
I have not
1
SPEAKER_01
 You've never seen that?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes, I have.
1
SPEAKER_00
I can think of one person off the top of my head.
1
SPEAKER_00
Billionaire.
1
SPEAKER_00
Most agreeable man in the world.
1
SPEAKER_00
Sweet, sweetest, married to a raging narcissist.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Oh man.
1
SPEAKER_00
He's a darling.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh man.
1
SPEAKER_01
But just gets walked all over in his relations.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh my god, beyond.
1
SPEAKER_00
Walked all over.
1
SPEAKER_01
But in his business he can go and have... Killed it.
1
SPEAKER_01
He can be assertive and yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
I've met a few agreeable rich folks.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean really, I mean not just rich, like really good at what they do.
1
SPEAKER_00
They, unicorns, like they definitely
1
SPEAKER_00
 But what was interesting, with a couple of these folks, agreeable, very wealthy, at the end of their career, they got taken down.
1
SPEAKER_00
They got people in the company, they were a soft target.
1
SPEAKER_01
They were the vulnerable target.
1
SPEAKER_01
So they were just gonna make them the scapegoat, and they're gonna, we're gonna take the equity from them, or they're gonna be the one to blame.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, they did, they got a group of people, they got a voting block.
1
SPEAKER_00
No, they weren't willing to be disagreeable.
1
SPEAKER_01
 They just wanted to keep the peace at all costs or whatever.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
And because they were collaborative people, they actually thought they were bringing up the next generation.
1
SPEAKER_01
It's interesting because, man, over the last decade, I really started doing a lot of healing work when I turned 30.
1
SPEAKER_01
I've talked about this many times on my show, that I was sexually abused when I was five by a man that I didn't know.
1
SPEAKER_01
And it definitely shaped a part of me for my life until I started to,
1
SPEAKER_01
 heal that process and really go through a healing journey of, you know, the shame that I felt for so long, the guilt, the insecurity, the not feeling enough or not feeling lovable, all these different things, and to kind of reshaping the story, the narrative, and finding the value in the process and in the pain, I guess, and really finding the value from 25 years of holding it in
1
SPEAKER_01
 and is channeling it, saying, how can I be of service at a greater level?
1
SPEAKER_01
How can I use this to support other men who have gone through sexual abuse?
1
SPEAKER_01
And that's why I wrote the book, The Masculine Man.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, one in six men have been sexually abused, one in four women, obviously.
1
SPEAKER_01
And what I always tell people is that, you know, men just don't talk about it, you know, and they hold it in and then they...
1
SPEAKER_01
 become angry or reactive or rageful or dismissive or whatever it is, they put a mask on.
1
SPEAKER_01
And that shame causes that mask, at least it did for me and a lot of men that I've talked to.
1
SPEAKER_01
So for many years, I had to learn how to kind of unwind and heal that process.
1
SPEAKER_01
And it's been a beautiful journey of healing where I can, because I used to be very competitive.
1
SPEAKER_01
It was like I had to win at all costs.
1
SPEAKER_01
 And now I'm like well that didn't work for me.
1
SPEAKER_01
It got me results but it left me feeling empty and alone and unfulfilled and I didn't have peace because I always needed a win.
1
SPEAKER_01
Then I started transitioning and when I hit 30 to I just want to collaborate and I just want to support others and work together and it feels a lot more peaceful inside and fulfilling.
1
SPEAKER_00
What do you think the function was of trying to win?
1
SPEAKER_01
 Oh, to get love and be accepted.
1
SPEAKER_00
To get love and be accepted.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was gonna say maybe to be safe, too.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, to get love, to be accepted, to feel like I was, yeah, to fit in, you know, because I didn't feel like I had any friends growing up.
1
SPEAKER_01
So it was like, well, if I win, people recognize me and they like me.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right, right.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I'm desirable.
1
SPEAKER_01
Right.
1
SPEAKER_01
 If I lose, then who wants to be around me?
1
SPEAKER_00
And then the shame gets activated.
1
SPEAKER_00
But it's also safety.
1
SPEAKER_00
If I win, I'm safe.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's the ultimate get for any human being is to be safe.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'm not alone.
1
SPEAKER_00
If I'm accepted, I'm safe.
1
SPEAKER_00
If I'm loved, I'm safe.
1
SPEAKER_01
 And it's funny, when I moved into, and Jay Shetty talks about this a lot when I talk with Jay about this, he's like, just being in collaboration is the key.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, I know that's what I feel like in the last eight years, because you're safe when you're still collaborating.
1
SPEAKER_01
You're still with people.
1
SPEAKER_01
You're helping each other accelerate together.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Right, but there's a fear, and I think one of the big impediments to collaboration is the sense that others will leave you behind.
1
SPEAKER_00
So if you become an island unto yourself, you feel safer, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
So I think that's often a blockade.
1
SPEAKER_01
I'm at the top of the mountain, everyone else is down.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes, if they leave you, it's not the collaboration that's the issue, it's the potential for abandonment.
1
SPEAKER_01
 Interesting like if I'm if I'm in this business like the billionaire friend I'm at the top, but then I collaborate with others But then they take it all and they leave me behind Well, they did they took it all away I mean this was somebody in that that man that agreeable billionaire was collaborative from the day one of his career so how do you stay collaborative and live in abundance and want others to win around you but also not get taken advantage of
1
SPEAKER_00
 It's not easy.
1
SPEAKER_00
With the one in five number I'm giving you, it's not easy.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, it is, you know, what is the best offense is a good defense, you better have a good defense.
1
SPEAKER_00
Get your contracts in order, get everything.
1
SPEAKER_00
Get your contracts in order, document.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Don't put your head in the sand I mean a lot the reason narcissism is proliferated the way it has is enabling people keep giving it a free pass Oh, come on now, you know, don't hate the player hate the game.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's not how that works, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
It's a player.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
No, so like it's it's a we have all this kind of culture around and in some ways people like want to see that they are
1
SPEAKER_00
 The best example I can give is that people hate the idea.
1
SPEAKER_00
When we see a magician do a trick, we know they didn't do magic.
1
SPEAKER_00
We know they had something up their sleeve, but we want to believe it's magic because that makes the world seem more interesting.
1
SPEAKER_00
With narcissists, we want to believe in the magic.
1
SPEAKER_00
We want to believe that this charismatic person is real.
1
SPEAKER_00
That someone this larger than life is larger than life.
1
SPEAKER_00
 rather than an ordinary person who just has ordinary things and could fall.
1
SPEAKER_00
We want superheroes.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's why we've always written myths as a species.
1
SPEAKER_00
But the myths should remain stories, not the person who's trying to scream at you from the other cubicle.
1
SPEAKER_01
 You've got some great books.
1
SPEAKER_01
Don't You Know Who I Am?
1
SPEAKER_01
How to Stay Sane in an Era of Narcissism, Entitlement, and Incivility.
1
SPEAKER_01
And you've also got another book called Should I Stay or Should I Go?
1
SPEAKER_01
I'm just laughing because of all my experiences in my life.
1
SPEAKER_01
Should I Stay or Should I Go?
1
SPEAKER_01
Surviving a Relationship with a Narcissist.
1
SPEAKER_01
It just feels like the best way to
1
SPEAKER_01
 you know, set yourself up for success is don't commit to being in a relationship with one in the first place.
1
SPEAKER_01
Take it slow, learn the person, learn as long as you can, spot the red flags.
1
SPEAKER_01
You talk a lot about this in these books.
1
SPEAKER_01
You talk about this on your YouTube channel, which is amazing.
1
SPEAKER_01
I was watching some of the videos.
1
SPEAKER_01
 Very inspiring.
1
SPEAKER_01
So if you wanna make sure you learn this, do not get committed until you learn the person you're with.
1
SPEAKER_00
Learn the person, take it slow, and don't justify bad behavior.
1
SPEAKER_00
When you witness bad behavior, unfortunately, it's like if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, scorpions sting.
1
SPEAKER_00
There are no such things as scorpions that hug.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so once you see a scorpion, it's gonna sting you, so walk the other way.
1
SPEAKER_00
And once it stings you once, don't pick it up again.
1
SPEAKER_01
 How else can we be supportive of you right now besides checking out your website?
2
SPEAKER_01
 YouTube, social media, the books.
2
SPEAKER_00
You do workshops now.
2
SPEAKER_00
I do workshops.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you go to my Instagram, follow me on Instagram, we often put, you know, we put the, let people know what's coming up then.
2
SPEAKER_00
We're gonna have a healing program and recovery program for people who've been through narcissistic relationships.
2
SPEAKER_00
That's coming up next year.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, just follow me on YouTube.
2
SPEAKER_00
We're always making our announcements there.
2
SPEAKER_00
Every day we have a new video coming out.
2
SPEAKER_00
So you would be 365 days wiser if you just keep watching, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
 Dr. Ramani everywhere, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, Dr. Ramani everywhere.
2
SPEAKER_01
Everywhere, there we go.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay, cool.
2
SPEAKER_01
Couple final questions.
2
SPEAKER_01
This one is called The Three Truths.
2
SPEAKER_01
It's what I ask everyone at the end of our interviews.
2
SPEAKER_01
So imagine a hypothetical scenario.
2
SPEAKER_01
It's your last day on Earth many years away.
2
SPEAKER_01
You get to live as long as you want, but it's the last day.
2
SPEAKER_01
And for whatever reason, all the content you've ever created has to go with you or go somewhere else.
2
SPEAKER_01
But it's not here.
2
SPEAKER_01
We don't have access to any of your information anymore.
2
SPEAKER_01
Books, the videos, everything's gone.
2
SPEAKER_01
 But you get to leave behind three things you know to be true from all your life lessons and experiences.
2
SPEAKER_01
And this is all we would have from your information.
2
SPEAKER_01
What would you say would be those three lessons or three truths?
2
SPEAKER_00
If someone else is cruel to you, it's not your fault.
2
SPEAKER_00
You came into this world lovable and will always be lovable.
2
SPEAKER_00
Trust and honor your truth and don't let anyone ever take it away from you.
2
SPEAKER_01
 Those are beautiful.
2
SPEAKER_01
Those are beautiful.
2
SPEAKER_01
Before I ask the final question, Dr. Ramani, I want to acknowledge you for your commitment to this information, to this message.
2
SPEAKER_01
I feel like there's a lot of people, including myself, have gone through a lot of this, who've always struggled feeling like they're wrong and they're bad and they're not good enough in these types of relationships.
2
SPEAKER_01
 And so for you to commit your adult life to this, to researching, studying, teaching in the university in an academic level, and now to the masses with your information, your books, your content, I really acknowledge you for the gift.
2
SPEAKER_01
 And also the pain that you went through in your journey to learn these things and experience it so you can help educate and teach others to hopefully heal the relationships they've been through, make sure they don't get in those relationships, and have a much more peaceful life.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, I appreciate that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Pain is a hell of a mentor.
2
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely it is.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it's going to keep coming until we learn the lesson.
2
SPEAKER_01
It's going to keep coming.
2
SPEAKER_01
My final question is, what's your definition of greatness?
2
SPEAKER_00
 My definition of greatness is humility, self-awareness, compassion, and empathy.
2
SPEAKER_01
 There you go.
2
SPEAKER_01
Dr. Romney, thank you.
2
SPEAKER_01
Appreciate it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Thank you.
2
SPEAKER_01
 I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most.
2
SPEAKER_01
And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.
2
SPEAKER_01
And now it's time to go out there and do something great.