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The following podcast is a Dear Media production.
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The Skinny Confidential products are now available online at Free People.
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Guys, you can go to Free People and you can search the Skinny Confidential.
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They have so many of our products on their site.
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You can get the iconic ice roller, the sleeping bag, the driving gloves.
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You can even get the face massager.
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It s all on Free People.
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I am so excited to be on their site.
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I ve been a Free People lover
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since I feel like I was in high school.
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So this is a major moment for everyone to be able to shop seamlessly on their site.
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Go to freepeople.com and search The Skinny Confidential to shop.
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She s a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire.
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Fantastic.
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And he s a serial entrepreneur.
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A very smart cookie.
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And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you along for the ride.
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Get ready for some major realness.
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Welcome to The Skinny Confidential, him and her.
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I remember thinking, like, this is going to ruin my career.
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Like, if I have TikTok on my resume, like, no one s going to take me seriously.
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But I was like, I need the job.
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I m just going to try it.
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And then one of Charlie s videos, like, were coming up on my feed.
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So I emailed her, and I remember she was like, hi, like, I think my dad s coming to LA for business.
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Like, I m going to see if I can come with him.
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There was one video where it was Charlie and Chase Hudson.
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And I think right now it s at, like, 40 million views on YouTube.
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Like, 4-0, not 14.
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And that was the video that like changed the trajectory of my career.
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It just went so viral and I was kind of the person behind the scenes that produced it.
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And then when I applied to BuzzFeed for an internship, I didn t get it, but I had that video listed on my resume and they reached out a month later and were like, oh, we re trying to figure out TikTok.
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Like, well, you just come full time.
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So I got an even better job than the one I had applied for.
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Today we re sitting down with the Coco Moco.
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You ve seen her all over TikTok.
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She is a digital trend forecaster and marketing specialist, and she has a background in entertainment.
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She used to work for BuzzFeed.
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And on this episode, we re really diving into it all.
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She tells you how to create your own future, how you can kickstart your career from scratch, the next 10 years of trends, how to grow on TikTok, creating longevity as a creator, up and coming marketing trends, and how fame has evolved in the last five years.
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We do a deep dive on fame and fame in 2024.
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This episode goes all over the place, but there s a lot of golden nuggets in it.
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On that note, let s welcome Coco Moco to the Him and Her show.
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This is the skinny confidential him and her.
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You have had a crazy career, and I feel like we talked off air.
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I do feel like you ve blown up, but it sounds like there was a lot of bricks that you laid to get here.
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And I think it s amazing that you used to listen to us at San Diego State and now you re here.
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I feel like that makes people feel like they can sort of create their own future.
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Yeah and like I know for me especially just in the context of college I was always so sad that I wasn t like in a sorority or things like that and I was like I m not gonna have any connections to get into marketing and stuff like that and then I mean I think part of it was luck when I did get into it but
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when I got my marketing degree, I was like, I will do marketing for a lawnmower company.
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Like I don t care, like whatever I can do.
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And I saw a Craigslist ad and it was like, we need someone to do marketing at this company in Santa Monica, but we can t tell you like what it is.
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And so I applied and then it ended up being Famous Birthdays, which is so funny.
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It s like a hot pink website for like 12 year olds.
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And so I went in and at the time they were interviewing a lot of like Musical.ly and YouTubers and stuff.
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So that was kind of how I got my start and that was where like the whole entertainment side of it came in.
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Does all that site does is just pull known people s birthdays?
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Yeah, it s honestly so fascinating.
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Like, I always sing their praises because I think they re so interesting.
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It basically, it s a website about famous people s birthdays.
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But when the guy who made it, Evan Britton, he thought it was going to be people searching like Beyonce and Lady Gaga.
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And he thought that there was typos because people were searching like Jacob Sartorius and like Lauren Gray.
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And he s like, who are these people?
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And then he realized that no one was covering like these influencers.
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So he started reaching out and then
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They would send them their birthday, some info.
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And then he would invite them into the L.A.
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office and interview them because no one else was interviewing them at the time.
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Like it just mainstream media wasn t really looking at influencers that way.
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And so he just built this devoted following of like Gen Z when they were like in fifth and sixth grade.
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Yeah.
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I mean, it s it s it s just so fascinating.
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They can always tell when someone s going to get famous because they get like the data of like searches and stuff.
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Oh my God, that s crazy.
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They reached out to me like my fourth year in my career to put me on their site.
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So do you think that they use the data of people searching to reach out to me?
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Yeah.
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So if they reach out to you, it s because your name was spiking in searches and they like wanted to get you on the site.
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So then they would have a landing page.
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Carson, go see if I m on there.
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Let s actually see if Michael s on there.
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Carson, tell us if Michael s on there.
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Oh my God, it s going to not be good for me if I m not on there at this point.
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I think it s going to be so, I hope he s not on there.
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I hope it s just me.
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I don t think I ve talked to anybody over there.
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Nope, I don t.
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But I guess they could pull it anyways.
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Sometimes they can.
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Yeah, sometimes if there s someone super growing and they really want a landing page, they ll kind of guess it.
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And they ll go on people s Instagram and see when they posted a birthday thing and around what day that was.
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So yeah, there s different ways that they ll kind of guess.
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Carson, what s the verdict?
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I m on there.
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He s on there?
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I m relevant, I m relevant.
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Yeah, that means people are searching.
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Oh my God, we cannot stroke the ego.
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Do not even stroke the ego.
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I hope it says he s 87 years old and he s about to die.
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But you know, we were talking about right before, and I thought it was an interesting topic to bring up as we re discussing fame in general and you were saying that like,
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you just what you watched or you read the Britney book?
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Obviously.
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Yeah.
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So I d been I mean, I d like who hadn t been following her story.
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But I ordered the book on Amazon.
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It arrives when I get home from my flight.
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But I feel like she s such a good example, I guess, where I kind of got my rise on TikTok is I would tell people like how to get famous or like what I thought was going to be trendy.
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But I also realized that there was this double edged sword of like, I felt like I also had to warn people that
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I feel like fame is like one of the most traumatic things that can happen to someone.
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And also for some people, sometimes the most dangerous thing that can happen to someone.
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And I think Britney is such an example of that.
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Like she s even someone that like, I don t even make many marketing videos about because I m like, I feel like she almost doesn t even want the attention in a way.
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Like, I don t think it s ever intentional or strategic with her.
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I think she just was so unique and like, for whatever reason,
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everyone like became obsessed with her and I think it was weaponized in some ways too.
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I just finished her book.
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It s really a tough read because she is a victim.
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Like when you re reading it and you read what she went through,
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It is an unusual life with a lot of abuse.
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There s cult-like behavior happening.
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Her father, who was a horrible alcoholic when she was a little girl and was horrible to her her entire childhood, grew up and essentially took control of her money, took control of when she went to the bathroom.
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put video cameras in the room when she was with men.
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He recorded her phone calls.
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He paid himself six million dollars a year out of her money and then would distribute her money to other people.
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He would have bodyguards for himself that he paid for.
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He was controlling every minute of her life.
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She wasn t allowed to have any alcohol.
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He put her in a mental institution and rehab.
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I mean, I could go on and on.
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And and the craziest thing
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is she could do nothing about it because she was in this conservatorship, is that how you say it?
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Yeah, conservatorship.
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Conservatorship.
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And she literally could do nothing.
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Like, there was nothing.
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In the book, I honestly don t know what advice I would give her.
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She s helpless in the whole... Well, she s like the most extreme example.
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But I think what s interesting on the shot, we get to meet so many, I guess,
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different walks of fame doing this show.
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You see people that are like, quote unquote, the A-list down, people that are like just kind of breaking through.
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And what we ve talked about here is I think there s a point in fame where if you want to peel it back, you no longer have the possibility to do so.
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Like I like, I consider Lauren and I known entities, but not quote unquote famous.
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Like we can walk down streets without people, some people know, but you know, and I, and, and I think that is kind of like a, a healthy space to be in at least for us.
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But we ve also met people where they become so famous that.
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They re at the point where even if they wanted to peel it back, like, I don t want this anymore.
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It s almost, it s too late.
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It s too far.
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I think that s when people sometimes, at least that we ve met, re-examine their relationship with it because they re like, shit, now there s like, you re famous.
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You can t do anything about it.
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Yeah.
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My friend Nikki said it perfectly.
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He was like, celebrities almost become so superhuman that they become subhuman.
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Like people no longer see them as human and that in a way kind of hurts them.
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And like, I definitely believe not for everyone, but
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it s not my own original thought, I ve just heard it before, but that household name type of fame can stunt people at the age that they become famous.
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And it really makes you empathize with a lot of people that like, someone like Michael Jackson, he had the mannerisms of someone who was maybe eight or nine.
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And like that was the age that he became super famous.
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And like Britney Spears in some way, I think sometimes seems like maybe 16 or like seems very young and it s like,
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They, I feel like part of that is they ll never have another normal interaction ever again.
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Like they can never just meet a stranger and like learn about themselves through that person or like everyone always sees them as the person that they were when they got famous.
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And so they never really get to grow unless they re, they have a good system around them.
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Yeah.
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I think the problem is people don t stop to ask, do you really want to be famous or do you want the things that you perceive to come with fame?
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Right.
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Whether that s money or access or whatever.
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And I think
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In a perfect world, you would have all the stuff without that kind of notoriety.
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To your point, I think my personal hell would be to be stuck in a restaurant to the point where you can t walk through and people are just staring at you.
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There was that video, and she talks about it in her book, too, of when Britney Spears is getting out of an Uber and you would die.
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She is pregnant and she s holding her 18-month-old.
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in her hands.
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And the paparazzi is not letting her go through.
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They re pushing her.
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And she is so defeated that she just goes into a restaurant and starts crying.
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And she s this pregnant woman.
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She s not wearing makeup, which is just like, leave her alone.
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She just wants to be left alone.
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And her baby s in her arms and she s just sitting there just crying.
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And she can t leave the restaurant because there s so many people outside.
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It was just, it was very, very suffocating.
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I m curious to know, because you are so on the pulse of trends, how you think people who have gained a huge TikTok following quickly
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What s going to happen to them in five years, in 10 years, in 20 years?
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Yeah, I mean, it s so interesting.
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I feel like the most recent example would be someone like Alex Earl.
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I think that we re also at a point where, like, fame is so fragmented now.
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Like, it s not as likely to have so many different
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Like, back then there were maybe five people that got famous a year, if even.
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Now there s like 30 to 100 people.
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I mean, there could be someone with a TikTok following of 10 million and I meet them at an event and I m like, I ve never seen that before.
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So I think that it s not going to be as extreme because of how many people are famous.
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I think specifically Gen Alpha, they re like the middle schoolers.
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They re the ones under Gen Z. I feel like they, of course, are obsessed with influencers, but they almost are going to see it as like not as interesting as maybe Gen Z and millennials saw influencers.
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Because I think to them, it s going to be such a common job.
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And of course, it s still
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and there s a lot of luck and prestige that comes with it, but I think that it s just gonna be so many people are famous that it s not as catastrophic when it does happen to someone.
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Isn t it interesting that Andy Warhol said that in the future, everyone s gonna have their 15 minutes of fame?
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Yeah.
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I think about that every day, like the Roman Empire thing on TikTok, that s my Roman Empire.
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I think about that quote every single day.
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Don t try to talk about the Roman Empire.
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Don t try to get on trend.
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I m not trying to get on trend, but how often do you think about it?
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No, no.
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I mean, well, how often?
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Okay.
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Honestly, if I m not, if I m not trying to even follow the trend, honestly, like maybe once every two months.
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And it s because, because, well, I m interested in those books.
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Like I read, I read a lot of history.
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And so I, you know, and also because it was like the greatest empire.
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My Roman empire is Andy Warhol.
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You re so right.
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Because doing what I do now at Dear Media, not to knock anyone, but sometimes
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talent or whatever will come through this door and they ll be huge.
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Like they re huge names in their own kind of like niche of fame on the internet.
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And I will have, I ll have to do research and be like, who is that?
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And it s, it s most likely because maybe I m not the target, but to your point, like back in the day, there was only a select few people that kind of broke through.
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This happened with musicians too, right?
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If you were a band, only a few bands broke through.
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Now everybody, like they can be the biggest band in the world.
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You have no idea who they are.
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And I think there s just, cause there s so many fragmented audiences online and there s so many more people online.
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that accumulating an audience of a few million people is extremely hard and it s sizable, but there s a billion people online.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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I m more interested in people that are able to hold on to it because I feel like going viral isn t that interesting anymore, but people that can stay in the public conscience for a long period of time, to me, that s so fascinating and I think very difficult to do.
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The people I feel the worst for, what s your point?
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I mean, not to age ourselves, but Lauren and I have been doing this for a while and we ve seen a lot of kind of people come and go and some, you know, come quicker and go faster than others.
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And I, I always find it to be a shame when you see somebody garnish a ton of attention online early and they grow really fast.
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And then the sharks swarm and you get all these different managers and agents and people, and they re like the hot thing of the moment.
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And then a year later, they re just spit out and washed out.
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And unfortunately, I think that happens because, and you can see how it happens, they think this never-ending growth is never going to stop, but you have to figure out how to have some longevity in whatever space you re going into.
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Yeah, you have to like always reinvent yourself.
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And to the point about managers, like I felt like even at Famous Birthdays, I saw that so much where it sounds so funny, like Famous Birthdays you think is this kiddie site, but like we would have all of these TikTokers come in and YouTubers that were getting famous and maybe only 10% of them would have longevity, like the Charli D Amelios.
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and the Addison Rays.
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And there were so many of them that had just like the shadiest managers.
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And it was worse when they were like young, like when they were like 15.
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And not that anything like bad was going on.
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It was just like, they didn t have like the tools to like know how to intuitively tell if it was like a bad manager or not.
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And that s why I always say to I m like, I feel like people should get famous after they re like frontal cortex is like finished developing, like people that get famous when they re like 25 or older, I think are able to sustain it more because they re just like more aware.
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I 100 percent agree with you.
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You had tried to get me famous at 12.
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I like would have been represented by John Robert Powers.
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You just don t know what you don t know.
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Yeah.
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Well, and I think like, listen, there s a lot of phenomenal agents and managers, but I think for every good one, there s 10 bad ones.
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And I don t mean to knock on it, but there s just people that maybe they re in that space.
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They re a little predatory.
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They don t have talents, best interests at heart for long-term decision-making.
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They put them in deals that are going to bring short-term dollars, but aren t going to build their brand long-term.
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And, and again, it s like, I think if I was speaking to any young person that finds success in this space, like you really have to do your homework and find
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vetted talent and management agencies and companies because there are some really good ones out there, but there s some people that get in the space.
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Like I meet people and I m like, how the hell are you?
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Like, I ve never heard of your company.
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What are you doing?
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But they have this really big talent for that moment in time.
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And you re kind of just like, how did this person get in bed with this person?
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Does that make sense?
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Yeah.
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I mean, the worst is like when you can tell they just hired like their friends who like maybe don t have the best intentions.
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Like I m like, if someone would come in for an interview, I m like, like, why do you have like 30 people on payroll?
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Like, and they re all like, are they really doing anything?
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Are they just like here?
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Like, like I felt like the worst was like when they had like a lot of their friends around them that they were paying.
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And I felt like that was always where it got like super dicey.
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It s kind of like an athlete.
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It s getting healthy.
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Yeah.
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I want to talk about how you became a digital trend forecaster and a marketing specialist, but let s go way back to when you were a little girl.
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Have you always been someone that was curious about what was up and coming?
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Like, how does one even fall into this?
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Yeah.
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So, I always reference also just like my astrology.
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I m a Gemini moon, Aquarius sun, and…
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I m a Gemini and my daughter s an Aquarius.
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That s the best mix.
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Really?
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Oh, yeah.
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See, I love Gemini.
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Yeah.
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But how do you be both?
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Or am I confused now?
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I don t know.
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I don t get it.
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How do you be both?
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So yeah, there s like different parts to your chart.
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But yeah, so Gemini involves technology, Aquarius involves the future.
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So for me, when I was super young, I remember when I was in middle school, that s when Myspace came around and I was like sickly obsessed with it.
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Like I remember I d be at school and I would like,
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a speed walk home so that I could figure out how to go on Google and make glitter fall from like the top of the page when you, as if anyone was going on my profile, they weren t.
2
SPEAKER_01
But to me, I thought that like millions of eyes were on my Myspace profile.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so I was just so obsessed with the internet and like why certain people would get attention.
2
SPEAKER_01
But of course I was like young, I didn t understand exactly where that was coming from.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then in high school, it was the tumblers that I was obsessed with.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then college, I thought I was gonna be a journalist.
2
SPEAKER_01
I even studied, or I read the books of like Diane Sawyer, Christine Armapur, all these journalists.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then I couldn t pass this grammar, spelling and punctuation test.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like I took it multiple times and I could not pass it.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so I got kicked out of the journalism school and I went to a counselor and they were like, well, something similar as marketing, like you could try marketing.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I cannot imagine myself as a journalist now.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think journalism is so hard.
2
SPEAKER_01
So then that was how I got into marketing.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I mean, I had always been just obsessed with like why people s attention goes to certain areas.
2
SPEAKER_01
And with trends specifically, I think
2
SPEAKER_01
When I first started blowing up, it was because I was talking about makeup and fashion trends.
2
SPEAKER_01
But I think I was like put into this bucket of a trend forecaster in terms of like fashion and clothing, but that s not really what I am.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think I m more of a digital forecaster.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I remember even some like verified, I think she s like a freelance writer for some big publications.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I was so devastated because she made a video and was like,
2
SPEAKER_01
Stop tagging me in that girl s videos.
2
SPEAKER_01
She has no credentials.
2
SPEAKER_01
She s never written for a fashion magazine.
2
SPEAKER_01
She doesn t know what she s talking about.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I remember being so sad because I was like, we re talking about smudged mascara and glitter eyeliner.
2
SPEAKER_01
I don t want to discourage anyone who maybe like doesn t have access to a Vogue internship to like start posting videos and come in our lane.
2
SPEAKER_01
But anyway, so I got put in the fashion bucket when I started blowing up like last year, but I ve always been a digital forecaster.
2
SPEAKER_01
I was at Famous Birthdays and then I went to BuzzFeed for three and a half years.
2
SPEAKER_01
And my job was to really just like go into meetings and tell them like what I thought was coming, how they can make videos with certain brands regarding different trends.
2
SPEAKER_00
And how are you figuring most of that out?
2
SPEAKER_01
just spending time on it, really listening.
2
SPEAKER_01
I always say like every platform is its own language and you have to learn the languages and also being a good listener because what I see a lot of brands and even celebrities that try to get on TikTok or whatever do wrong.
2
SPEAKER_01
I use the analogy of
2
SPEAKER_01
It s like going to a small like kickback or party.
2
SPEAKER_01
And if you want to get attention and you want to make friends and be the coolest person in the room, like that s fine.
2
SPEAKER_01
But you can t just walk up to a group of people and be like, hi, this is me.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m funny.
2
SPEAKER_01
Follow me.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m so cool.
2
SPEAKER_01
They re going to like ignore you and then turn around.
2
SPEAKER_01
You have to stand there for a few minutes.
2
SPEAKER_01
You have to listen to what they re saying.
2
SPEAKER_01
What are the conversations?
2
SPEAKER_01
Do you have something of value to add?
2
SPEAKER_01
Then you can maybe chime in.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I think of platforms like that, like I m just the listener because brands or celebrities don t always have time to listen to what all the conversations are.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think that s super smart.
2
SPEAKER_02
And that s why I came to you and was like, I need to hire you.
2
SPEAKER_02
So Coco and I have been working together for like three months and you have helped make it digestible about how to come into the party, if you will.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
There are three drinks that I drink every single morning.
2
SPEAKER_02
One is my raw milk with coffee with nugget ice.
2
SPEAKER_02
I also love a lemon water.
2
SPEAKER_02
Sometimes I add my debloating drops to it.
2
SPEAKER_02
And then I drink AG1.
2
SPEAKER_02
OK.
2
SPEAKER_02
I started drinking this daily when I heard about it on Huberman s podcast.
2
SPEAKER_02
And then my husband, Michael, was like, you need to drink this.
2
SPEAKER_02
You need to try this.
2
SPEAKER_02
This is such a great morning ritual.
2
SPEAKER_02
And it s a great way to get a bunch of vitamins, prebiotics, probiotics, digestive enzymes for gut support.
2
SPEAKER_02
It has magnesium, B vitamins, basically all the things in one beautiful scoop.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I sort of started on my own.
2
SPEAKER_02
I froth it up with a lot of ice and water, and I ll just drink it down.
2
SPEAKER_02
I think it tastes so good.
2
SPEAKER_02
I ve recommended AG1 to a bunch of my friends and family.
2
SPEAKER_02
I recommended it to my dad.
2
SPEAKER_02
He s implemented it into his day.
2
SPEAKER_02
If you re a longtime listener, you know that Michael and I have been drinking AG1 for the past year, I think, Michael, even two years.
2
SPEAKER_02
He likes to do it first thing in the morning.
2
SPEAKER_02
I like to wait about an hour.
2
SPEAKER_02
On that note, AG1 is the supplement I trust to provide the support my body needs daily, and that s why they ve been a partner of the show so long.
2
SPEAKER_02
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Go to drinkag1.com slash skinny.
2
SPEAKER_02
That s drinkag1.com slash skinny.
2
SPEAKER_02
Check it out.
2
SPEAKER_00
When Lauren s right, she s right.
2
SPEAKER_00
I have to give her credit here.
2
SPEAKER_00
Let s talk about branch basics.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you re like me, one of the many unfortunate people that grew up with all sorts of chemical household cleaning supplies, never knowing the difference, never knowing a better way, well, then I have something for you, and that is branch basics.
2
SPEAKER_00
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2
SPEAKER_00
It wasn t until Lauren battered me down and said, we re changing all of the household cleaning supplies that I absolutely noticed a difference.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now, anytime I walk into a house that doesn t use natural cleaning supplies or a hotel, immediately I can tell the difference.
2
SPEAKER_00
I feel lethargic.
2
SPEAKER_00
I feel slow.
2
SPEAKER_00
My brain gets a little foggy.
2
SPEAKER_00
And what I ve noticed since I ve implemented Branch Basics into the house is that I feel much more energy.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t feel brain fog.
2
SPEAKER_00
And here s the thing.
2
SPEAKER_00
Once I got educated on all the terrible things that they put into most household cleaning supplies, even the ones that they greenwash,
2
SPEAKER_00
It was, to me, a no-brainer to switch them out.
2
SPEAKER_00
Why would I want my dogs or my children having chemicals in their system or being exposed to them?
2
SPEAKER_00
Their Premium Starter Kit replaces all of your harmful cleaning products in the home.
2
SPEAKER_00
Branch Basics now has a new luxurious gel hand soap that we just implemented into the house as well, made with only the safest ingredients to nourish your skin.
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SPEAKER_00
It really is a no-brainer.
2
SPEAKER_00
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2
SPEAKER_00
And, of course, we have an offer for you.
2
SPEAKER_00
get those nasty chemicals out of your house and save 15% on your starter kit or their new hand soap when you use code skinny at www.branchbasics.com.
2
SPEAKER_00
Again, that is code skinny for 15% off when you purchase a starter kit or their new gel hand soap.
2
SPEAKER_00
Branchbasics.com code skinny.
2
SPEAKER_02
I was introduced to Prolong, the cleanse from Tynx.
2
SPEAKER_02
Tynx was on Instagram story and she was just talking about how much she liked the specific cleanse.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s kind of like a fast.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I started trying it.
2
SPEAKER_02
I did it like probably four times, loved the cleanse.
2
SPEAKER_02
And then Prolong recently launched a fasting shake.
2
SPEAKER_02
I think this is so interesting because the Prolon Fasting Shake is scientifically proven to mimic the fasting state without spiking blood sugar.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s also designed to maintain a fasting fat burning state longer while keeping the body satisfied.
2
SPEAKER_02
So if you want to intermittent fast, I know Brooke Burke came on and she raved about intermittent fasting.
2
SPEAKER_02
This is such a great way to do it because it s not going to take you out of your fasted state, but you re going to feel satisfied.
2
SPEAKER_02
Of course, their shake is vegan, dairy-free, gluten-free, soy-free, and it s also, which I think is so cool, packed with 21 vitamins and minerals.
2
SPEAKER_02
So if you re looking to sort of step your toe into intermittent fasting and you want the benefits such as weight loss and increased energy, this is a good way to do it because you won t feel like you re hungry because you won t
3
SPEAKER_02
have this Prolong Fasting Shake.
3
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SPEAKER_02
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3
SPEAKER_02
That s 15% off at P-R-O-L-O-N life.com slash skinny.
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3
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3
SPEAKER_02
When someone tells you that you don t have the credentials to come into a space, how do you respond?
3
SPEAKER_02
Because someone, when I first started blogging, said, what do you mean you re blogging?
3
SPEAKER_02
You don t have the credentials of a nutritionist.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I think a lot of people get deterred by that if they hear that when they re entering a field.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, they ve said it to us every turn on every, on every kind of meal.
3
SPEAKER_02
I think that s a lot of, a lot of people who have had success have sort of paved through that.
3
SPEAKER_02
Can you talk about that?
3
SPEAKER_00
But I also think that as part of that though, is I also think that we ve grown up in a culture where people feel you need like permission from some kind of degree or some kind of person that s been like to be able to enter a space.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I understand that if you re going into a medical field or whatever, but I don t like for me, I don t, I never felt I needed permission to just start doing this on a mic.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, no, I mean, it s such like good questions because that s something I m like so passionately feel is that
3
SPEAKER_01
One, if you are, of course, trying to cure cancer or telling someone how to build a rocket ship, you have to have a degree and have an understanding there.
3
SPEAKER_01
But with the fields that we re in that s more creative and storytelling, a lot of times it is intuitive.
3
SPEAKER_01
What really got me is I m very privileged that I had a college education.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I m very privileged that I am a white woman who was able to get her foot in the door at huge companies like BuzzFeed.
3
SPEAKER_01
But when I first started blowing up, I didn t think that I had to disclose that info.
3
SPEAKER_01
One, because I ve always been super private.
3
SPEAKER_01
And two, because my videos spoke for themselves.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was like, I don t need to tell you my resume.
3
SPEAKER_01
If you think my video is good, you think it s good.
3
SPEAKER_01
If you think it s bad, you think it s bad.
3
SPEAKER_01
And what I always like, I always say my number one mission statement is to make people feel seen and heard.
3
SPEAKER_01
When that specific video, it was like my villain arc because I was like, I ll be fine.
3
SPEAKER_01
But there s probably a girl out there who s working, you know, a dead-end job in the middle of nowhere who maybe didn t have access to a college education, maybe not even access to a high school education, and they see TikTok or whatever platform comes next is like, this is my one chance at maybe having a career in makeup or
3
SPEAKER_01
like Coco Moco isn t credentialed and she s a BuzzFeed employee with, you know, a college degree.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like if she s not credentialed enough, then I don t stand a chance.
3
SPEAKER_01
So for me, it was really being like,
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t know.
3
SPEAKER_01
I just, I think, though, if someone s saying that you re not credentialed, you re probably, like, doing something right because you re disrupting the industry in a way.
3
SPEAKER_01
And they re scared.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like, I feel like when you re disrupting, it s like, wait.
3
SPEAKER_01
But that s usually what s going to catch on next.
3
SPEAKER_02
I also think that they re projecting onto you something.
3
SPEAKER_02
And how about this?
3
SPEAKER_02
I don t think credentials are just from college.
3
SPEAKER_02
I think credentials can be found as a bartender.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_02
Learning energy, learning how to multitask, learning how to engage with people and listen.
3
SPEAKER_02
I think credentials can be found working at McDonald s.
3
SPEAKER_02
There s different credentials, quote unquote, that you can get.
3
SPEAKER_02
from interacting with people in certain industries and also there s there s things maybe in your day-to-day life that don t even have to do with work where you can find credentials and you can put it together to create a certain kind of sort of career for yourself.
3
SPEAKER_00
I ll give you like a different like a counter like something outside of the creator economy like when we started this business most of the people that that work in this business are young like sub 25 maybe a little older now because we ve been doing it for a while but when we first started doing this at the time like people were talking about podcasts but
3
SPEAKER_00
not to the degree they are now.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so we didn t have like, I didn t have a list of like all these credentialed people that have been in other podcast businesses, or if they had been, they re usually like older and coming from radio.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I mostly looked to very young people that had no experience or quote unquote credentials, but that just what I felt had like a good pulse on this type of digital content.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that s how we hired.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
And yeah, it s like if we would have quote unquote gone for credentials, the company would not exist.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I feel like it truly, at least what I ve learned, even in like my path to, I m at like almost a million followers.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think I m at like 998.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I learned so much more from like my lunch breaks at work where I was just posting and like seeing what stuck.
3
SPEAKER_01
versus like being in seminars or like I ll travel to seminars and panels and it s really great and I learn a lot.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I learn a lot from just doing like, I think I always say behind every viral video is like 30 bad videos that you had to like private or like refilm.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that s like really like just doing and I like whenever I was hiring people around me,
3
SPEAKER_01
at my old job or having people come onto my team within the company, it was like, I didn t really care about someone if they were like the A plus student that like, I like, of course, those people are important.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I just wanted the person who was like, just like trying whatever they could and like just willing to be the first one to like volunteer to do the scary thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was like, that s the person who s like, like going to find the next big thing.
3
SPEAKER_02
I know a lot of people with a lot of credentials that have absolutely no execution and don t know how to execute that are stuck.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I think that that conversation is not had enough.
3
SPEAKER_02
If you cannot do like you just said, you are in your own way.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I don t give a fuck if you have all the credentials in the goddamn world.
3
SPEAKER_02
If you have all the credentials and you re not doing,
3
SPEAKER_02
It s not going to come.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, here s the thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, listen, I don t want to knock A students.
3
SPEAKER_02
I am not an A student, but what I would say- You were flashing the principal in detention in Saturday school.
3
SPEAKER_00
I think this is something that s interesting to observe and for people to really think about, especially if they re still in school.
3
SPEAKER_00
If you have spent the majority of your life being told and being trained that success means you get closest to a perfect score as possible.
3
SPEAKER_00
Then there s an opportunity where you have to go and you re thinking about trying something on your own.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s very likely that you re not going to get a perfect score.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, my first four or five businesses were disasters.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s just what happens, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
But if you re trained to think that success means you get a perfect score all the time, it is very hard to break out of that mindset and go and try things on your own.
3
SPEAKER_00
I sometimes empathize with people that have been taught that a degree in perfect scores on a test equates to success because in my personal experience and the entrepreneurs and people that I ve met in the creator space or in business, it s a lot of micro failures that eventually lead to a success.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I think if you re not equipped to handle that from an emotional standpoint,
3
SPEAKER_00
it becomes debilitating.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Whereas like maybe I relate to that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Cause I was like always like the kind of like not reckless in a bad way, but I was always just the kid that would like just had so much energy and just did everything.
3
SPEAKER_01
And like two quotes to that of what you guys said that I love one, I think was from Mark Cuban.
3
SPEAKER_01
He said it takes 10 years to be an overnight success.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then another one, I think it was from Victoria Paris.
3
SPEAKER_01
She s an influencer.
3
SPEAKER_01
And she said that,
3
SPEAKER_01
Perfectionism is a form of procrastination and like those two I just live by.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like I m like, I just need to get like 10 bad videos out there and then I ll have that one video that changes my life.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, we know a lot of people that are in that perfection space where they like start to do something and they re getting ready to launch it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then in their eyes, it s not perfect.
3
SPEAKER_00
So instead of launching into potentially failing, they go, ah, you know, I m moving on to the next thing, or I m not going to try that thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
And, you know, I was listening to you talk, and I think it s important for people to think about, like, you could study your formula or our formula or another person s formula all day long, but it s not until you actually start doing the thing and getting a bunch of repetitions in that you can actually figure out what works for you.
3
SPEAKER_00
To Lauren s point, a lot of people do themselves a disservice by thinking it needs to be perfect or they need the credential or they need permission to get going.
3
SPEAKER_00
We always say on this show, launch fast and adjust because the first 200 episodes were disasters.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
3
SPEAKER_00
It s just how it is.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_02
What are the trends?
3
SPEAKER_02
that are up and coming.
3
SPEAKER_02
Let s start with podcasts since we re here.
3
SPEAKER_02
What do you see in the next five to ten years for podcasts?
3
SPEAKER_02
And you have your own podcast, so I think you re the perfect person to ask.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Thank you.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I feel like at least right now I m seeing this.
4
SPEAKER_00
resurgence of like live streamers that aren t just gamers.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I think that we re going to see someone crack the code to like, whenever I go to film a pod or even like a YouTube video, it s so hard and like no one talks about it.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like it s literally like just learning that kind of realm is hard.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so I think that like a meta live stream of pod, like I was on
4
SPEAKER_00
I was filming a YouTube video recently and I put my phone in the corner of my desk and just live streamed on TikTok.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I didn t even acknowledge the TikTok.
4
SPEAKER_00
I think in the beginning I just told him what I was doing and I was looking at the camera away from the phone.
4
SPEAKER_00
And like that TikTok live got more views than even the YouTube video.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, whoa, like I think that there s something there.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s super interesting.
4
SPEAKER_01
So like putting a camera up, not acknowledging, I ve seen what you re talking about.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it s like live on TikTok and people can just,
4
SPEAKER_01
And that s a really good way for people to find you, too.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
4
SPEAKER_00
And there s two things about live streaming, and I think we ll see more of that connection with podcasting.
4
SPEAKER_00
But one, I always say with live streaming, it s not about entertainment.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s about companionship.
4
SPEAKER_00
People just want to be in the room with you.
4
SPEAKER_00
They re probably watching Game of Thrones on their TV and they just have it up.
4
SPEAKER_00
And also, if you think about the type of personality who s
4
SPEAKER_00
going to watch a live streamer, they, like, not in a bad way.
4
SPEAKER_00
They probably have a lot of time on their hands.
4
SPEAKER_00
They might be a little bit lonely.
4
SPEAKER_00
Maybe they live alone for the first time.
4
SPEAKER_00
And they re probably adopters of new technology.
4
SPEAKER_00
So they re the ones who, when you announce that you have a Patreon or like some new app, they re gonna be the ones that try it before everyone else, because they were the ones watching live streams before everyone else.
4
SPEAKER_00
So I think we ll see more lifestyle live streamers blowing up that are like filming their podcast kind of in like a,
4
SPEAKER_00
like a fly on the wall way.
4
SPEAKER_01
Damn, that is smart.
4
SPEAKER_01
That is a smart, smart, smart theory.
4
SPEAKER_01
Thank you.
4
SPEAKER_01
TikTok.
4
SPEAKER_01
Let s pretend someone is listening.
4
SPEAKER_01
They have 100 followers.
4
SPEAKER_01
They have no idea where to start.
4
SPEAKER_01
And let s pretend like they hire you right now to tell them what to do.
4
SPEAKER_01
What tangible tips are you giving them?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so there s two that I always tell people when they re new.
4
SPEAKER_00
Number one is the nicher you go, the quicker you grow.
4
SPEAKER_00
And like, of course, people don t want to be put in a box, but if you re going to stand out, you have to have something unique about you.
4
SPEAKER_00
And like I always say, if someone
4
SPEAKER_00
is like, oh, have you seen the girl that does her makeup online?
4
SPEAKER_00
You re like, well, that could be anyone.
4
SPEAKER_00
But if you re like, have you seen the girl that does Get Ready With Me s?
4
SPEAKER_00
You re like Alex Earl.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, of course, she didn t invent that.
4
SPEAKER_00
But you have to have something unique that if a stranger on the street said it to their friend, have you heard of this person?
4
SPEAKER_00
They would know exactly who you are.
4
SPEAKER_00
And if it s too broad, it s not unique enough.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then number two is just, I know people hate this, but it really is consistency because you have to train the algorithm.
4
SPEAKER_00
So like when you first start posting videos, the algorithm isn t going to know where to pump you out to.
4
SPEAKER_00
So it takes a few videos or even a few weeks or a few months of you posting, like if you want to be a popcorn reviewer, like you re obsessed with popcorn.
4
SPEAKER_00
And you post 10 videos about you reviewing popcorn.
4
SPEAKER_00
They re probably going to get no views.
4
SPEAKER_00
But eventually, the algorithm is going to be like, OK, this person has posted 10 videos about popcorn.
4
SPEAKER_00
I feel like they re taking this seriously.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m going to pump them out to 300,000 people who liked a movie snack video last night.
4
SPEAKER_00
So it takes time.
4
SPEAKER_00
I always say the algorithm is like a robot on the other end, and you have to tell them what you want to make videos about, and then eventually they ll pump you out.
4
SPEAKER_00
But people put out one video and they re like, this is it, and nothing happens.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s not because it was a bad video.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s just that the algorithm doesn t really know if you re taking it seriously or not, or what niche you re in.
4
SPEAKER_01
When you say consistency, I like to get very micro here.
4
SPEAKER_01
What would you suggest that someone does with 100 followers?
4
SPEAKER_01
How often?
4
SPEAKER_01
What s the duration?
4
SPEAKER_01
Let s get really detailed.
4
SPEAKER_00
So for me, and at least brands I ve worked with, I always say three a day, five days a week.
4
SPEAKER_00
not because it s even about the number, but because if you have to make three videos a day, it forces you to stop overthinking and spending an hour on one video.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like if you have to film three a day, you re like, okay, I have a 30 minute lunch break that gives me 10 minutes to like quickly do a green screen video about something trending.
4
SPEAKER_00
So I like saying three a day because it forces people to have those off the cusp videos that are usually the most viral.
4
SPEAKER_00
But if you re like, make one a week, then they just brainstorm.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then by the time they film it, it feels forced.
4
SPEAKER_00
What are some things that you ve seen go viral, go crazy, that you just can t even believe it?
4
SPEAKER_00
Honestly, so many of live streaming.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m like, what?
4
SPEAKER_00
It s just a bizarre world.
4
SPEAKER_00
There s a girl that makes candy.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
4
SPEAKER_00
Who s that?
4
SPEAKER_00
The girl, she s like pulling taffy.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s so bizarre.
4
SPEAKER_00
And like live streaming like isn t to the point of like TikToker fame yet.
4
SPEAKER_00
I would say like anytime there s just something super niche like there used to be this dog.
4
SPEAKER_00
I think it was named like Doug the pug.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I don t know if you guys saw it, but they would call it like, is it a bones day?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, it s just like a, it s like a saying that they would do.
4
SPEAKER_00
And if the dog was an elderly dog, and if he woke it up in the morning and it stood up on its own legs, that meant it was going to be a good day.
4
SPEAKER_00
But if he stood up, dug the pug, and then he fell over, it was like a bad day.
4
SPEAKER_00
because he didn t have bones that day.
4
SPEAKER_00
So, I mean, I remember like- That s like me every morning.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I remember at work, like people would be like, is it a bones day or no bones day?
4
SPEAKER_00
And like things like that are just so random, but it like makes sense when it does go viral.
4
SPEAKER_00
Cause you re like, duh, like, why didn t I think of that?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, it s just so niche.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
Where do you think that blogging is going and Instagram?
4
SPEAKER_01
Where do we if you could predict in the next five years?
4
SPEAKER_00
It s so interesting you ask me that because I just finished reading Glossy, which is like the book.
4
SPEAKER_00
Did you read it?
4
SPEAKER_00
I read it, too.
4
SPEAKER_00
I don t understand why, like I felt like everyone wanted that brand to fill and I thought Into the Gloss was like so fascinating and such a cool concept and still is.
4
SPEAKER_00
But I mean, in terms of blogging, I don t know.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s hard for me to say because I myself am not a huge blog reader.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like I read a lot of books.
4
SPEAKER_00
I don t know.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, maybe this isn t answering your question.
4
SPEAKER_00
I feel like we re just going to see a lot more influencers like publishing books and stuff because we were on this memoir kick right now.
4
SPEAKER_00
But I don t know about blogging.
4
SPEAKER_00
I just am not a consumer of it.
4
SPEAKER_02
Do you know what s interesting for me though that I look at a lot?
4
SPEAKER_02
I think everybody s very aware of kind of like quote unquote the big names that break through.
4
SPEAKER_02
But again, being close to this space and sometimes being on the other side of the veil and seeing the businesses people have built.
4
SPEAKER_02
Like Lauren and I just spoke at a conference and there was 200 creators there, many of them not mainstream, but all of them are making seven figures a year, if not more.
4
SPEAKER_02
And I always tell people this is like, do you really want to, this goes back to our fame thing.
4
SPEAKER_02
Do you really want to be the biggest or do you want to really build a business?
4
SPEAKER_02
And I think that like you read the headlines of like the Forbes 30 under 30 and 40 under 40, which to me is just a bunch of horse shit.
4
SPEAKER_02
You know what I mean?
4
SPEAKER_02
Like I always think it s just like someone paid for that press.
4
SPEAKER_02
Did you see my video about it?
4
SPEAKER_00
No, I didn t.
4
SPEAKER_00
They had to change the article.
4
SPEAKER_02
Well, because it s just like, listen, like I know how to get like, it s like, if you want to go and you want to flip some numbers and like, it s, I understand.
4
SPEAKER_01
I did see your video on that.
4
SPEAKER_01
I did see your video.
4
SPEAKER_02
Not to diminish, but I know, I know people that are in the creator economy that are maybe not as known, but like they re powerful and they have substantial businesses with a lot of revenue for many years.
4
SPEAKER_02
And so I think like, again, like sometimes people, their focus is like, can I be the most well known?
4
SPEAKER_02
And I think to your point earlier, it s like,
4
SPEAKER_02
The goal should be, can you really build a living doing this for a long period of time?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
4
SPEAKER_02
Or have it be sustainable?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
No, I 100%, I think that the creators that like really dive deep with their audience, like some creators will have 100,000 followers, but like those followers are so loyal to them that that s the equivalent of someone who has 10 million followers.
4
SPEAKER_00
And like it s so it s that discussion of like surface level fame versus like diving deep.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I always like to say all these different quotes.
4
SPEAKER_00
My manager calls them the Coco isms.
4
SPEAKER_00
But when it comes to fame or virality, like, do you want to be great at
5
SPEAKER_02
at one thing or good at everything.
5
SPEAKER_02
And I think people that become very like surface level household names, sometimes it s because they re like, they dip their toes in everything, but like they don t dive deep.
5
SPEAKER_02
And like, maybe the people that dive deep don t have the most recognition, but they have the most power and like people show up.
5
SPEAKER_02
Like, I think the biggest sign of how influential someone is, is if they can like throw a pop-up event and like people physically show up.
5
SPEAKER_02
Like, that s crazy to me.
5
SPEAKER_02
Like, that s so hard to do.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think a great example of that is Indie from Lonely Ghost, Indie and Brono.
5
SPEAKER_01
They ve done a really, I mean, they have people, they did like a haunted house and I think they had like a thousand people show up and they ve built such an incredible community.
5
SPEAKER_01
And to Michael s point, you were saying that we spoke at that conference, like the people in that audience were very powerful with what they were doing and maybe they don t have millions of followers.
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, I think my fear, my fear for a lot of people that are looking at this space and like maybe glamorizing it a bit.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s like, I think it can also be really unforgiving.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like if you build a huge platform and then you have an audience abandon you and there s like, you know, we all know these stories, like people like have this one calls it astronauts and they go super fast rise at the top.
5
SPEAKER_00
Everyone s doing deals with them.
5
SPEAKER_00
Then they go away and it s like, you ve had this level of quote unquote fame.
5
SPEAKER_00
You ve had a bunch of brands throwing money at you and then it s gone.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I think it s like, it s also really important for people to think about like
5
SPEAKER_00
when they re building a career in this space, like what they actually want to be known for.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like not just be known, but what for.
5
SPEAKER_01
Or they get really popular really fast and they give their brand equity away too easily.
5
SPEAKER_01
So all of a sudden you start seeing all these co-brands with every, like there s like 15 co-brands and they re working with every single brand that they could find.
5
SPEAKER_01
And slap their name on it and it ruins their equity.
5
SPEAKER_01
Totally.
5
SPEAKER_02
I really do feel like your glass ceiling is like who you collab with and
5
SPEAKER_02
I interviewed recently Greg Goodfried, he s the D Amelio s manager, and he s behind so many crazy internet lures, but he s one of those mysterious, powerful people behind the scenes.
5
SPEAKER_02
And he said that part of the reason that D Amelio signed with him is he told them,
5
SPEAKER_02
you re gonna get a lot of offers.
5
SPEAKER_02
Like this is when they were blowing up in 2020.
5
SPEAKER_02
He s like, you re gonna get a lot of offers from a lot of people.
5
SPEAKER_02
And it s not about what you can do.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s about what you don t do.
5
SPEAKER_02
And like, I m the person that will tell you what not to do.
5
SPEAKER_02
And I was like, that is like the best advice.
5
SPEAKER_02
I think people get so excited and they wanna do everything.
5
SPEAKER_02
But like the moment that you do a brand deal with like a hokey tea brand or like some random like thing that is a weird, you know, the product s not good or whatever, like your fans don t really trust you anymore.
5
SPEAKER_01
I totally agree and I think that that conversation is going to be up and coming for like in the next 10 years.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think we re going to hear a lot of that kind of conversation.
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Base, guys, luggage that is designed to fit everything effectively and efficiently.
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We have had some people on the podcast that have talked about water, water that you re showering in or water that you re bathing in.
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SPEAKER_01
When you interviewed Charli D Amelio, her first interview in 2019, what was that like?
5
SPEAKER_02
I had been working with someone close to her recently, and I don t even know if she d remembered, but I was at the event, and I m like, I don t know if you remember, because my first name is this, and that s how you knew me, but now I m Coco, and that s how you know me now.
5
SPEAKER_02
But that interview that I did with you changed my life.
5
SPEAKER_02
And so I really think of that moment is like why I m in this room.
5
SPEAKER_02
Like that, like interviewing her was, and I wasn t on screen.
5
SPEAKER_02
It was what happened behind the scenes.
5
SPEAKER_02
So I was at Famous Birthdays and I was, when I got the job, I was assigned to run the TikTok.
5
SPEAKER_02
It was Musical.ly and then it switched to TikTok.
5
SPEAKER_02
And I remember thinking like, this is going to ruin my career.
5
SPEAKER_02
Like at the time, everyone was doing Instagram marketing, YouTube marketing.
5
SPEAKER_02
And I was like, if I have TikTok on my resume, like no one s going to take me seriously.
5
SPEAKER_02
But I was like, I need the job.
5
SPEAKER_02
I m just going to try it.
5
SPEAKER_02
Again, going back to like the person that just tries the new things and is like figuring it out before everyone else.
5
SPEAKER_02
And so I was on TikTok and then Evan Britton, the guy who founded Famous Birthdays, he was like, if you see anyone on your For You page who you think might be famous, like invite them in.
5
SPEAKER_02
Just like you have full invite control, whoever you think.
5
SPEAKER_02
And I remember it was when TikTok really started to take off in late 2019.
5
SPEAKER_02
And then one of Charli s videos, like, were coming up on my feed.
5
SPEAKER_02
And there also weren t that many videos back then.
5
SPEAKER_02
Like, it wasn t... But anyways, but the moment I knew she was going to be famous is I saw people duetting her and, like, talking about her hype.
5
SPEAKER_02
And I always say that s, like, the moment you have, like, a third party talking about you.
5
SPEAKER_02
Not, like, a friend or a co-worker, but, like, someone unrelated to you.
5
SPEAKER_02
They re going to be famous.
5
SPEAKER_02
So...
5
SPEAKER_02
I emailed her and I remember she was like, hi, like, I think my dad s coming to LA for business.
5
SPEAKER_02
Like, I m going to see if I can come with him.
5
SPEAKER_02
So we were like, okay, great.
5
SPEAKER_02
So then she came in and they filmed the interview with her.
5
SPEAKER_02
And the video was starting to go so viral that I remember one of my managers being like,
5
SPEAKER_02
don t know if these numbers are real.
5
SPEAKER_02
We thought YouTube was just inflating our numbers.
5
SPEAKER_02
But I was like, no, I think she actually has this audience.
5
SPEAKER_02
And no one had heard her talk before because she was blowing up dancing.
5
SPEAKER_02
So no one knew her voice, her mannerisms.
5
SPEAKER_02
So I think that was where the fascination from the audience came in.
5
SPEAKER_02
And then because of those videos, I remember she went on like a Gary Vee podcast a little bit after that.
5
SPEAKER_02
And he s like, when did you know you were famous?
5
SPEAKER_02
And I think she said something about like when Famous Birthdays reached out for an invite.
5
SPEAKER_02
And then from there, I started working with her manager and her dad would reach out to me and be like, hey, we re in town.
6
SPEAKER_00
and like, can we come in for another interview?
6
SPEAKER_00
And we would just stop everything and be like, we d have to play it cool.
6
SPEAKER_00
Like on email, they d make us be like, if we had the whole day free, we would have to be like, well, we have an opening at 1130 or like 215, just so they thought we were important.
6
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I guess at that point we were, but when the Demelios would come in, we d play it cool, but like everything would stop.
6
SPEAKER_00
And there was one video where it was Charlie and Chase Hudson
6
SPEAKER_00
another TikToker.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I think right now it s at like 40 million views on YouTube, like 4-0, not 14.
6
SPEAKER_00
And that was the video that like changed the trajectory of my career.
6
SPEAKER_00
Just went so viral.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I was kind of the person behind the scenes that produced it.
6
SPEAKER_00
And then when I applied to BuzzFeed for an internship, I didn t get it, but I had that video listed on my resume and they reached out a month later and were like, Oh, like you made these videos.
6
SPEAKER_00
Like we re trying to figure out TikTok.
6
SPEAKER_00
Like, well, you just come full time.
6
SPEAKER_00
So I got an even better job than the one I had applied to.
6
SPEAKER_02
The recruiter at Buzzfeed was asleep at the switch there for a second.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Right.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
And it was like, I, and I m guessing they put like TikTok in the resume finder and mine came up and then I had the like data to prove it.
6
SPEAKER_00
But I always say like that, that the, the videos that I made with the D Amelios, like they might not even remember me or like I ve, but like, to me, like those changed my life.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I got to go to like the Sway House, which is so like,
6
SPEAKER_00
It was like Bryce Hall and like Jaden Hostler, but it was like, it was such a time.
6
SPEAKER_00
And it was like right before COVID happened.
6
SPEAKER_00
And Famous Birthdays was just getting the interviews with all these kids before they were like really taken seriously by like mainstream media.
6
SPEAKER_00
So it was like this little bubble.
6
SPEAKER_01
What marketing trends do you think are up and coming?
6
SPEAKER_00
Right now?
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Oh my gosh.
6
SPEAKER_00
Go off.
6
SPEAKER_00
I think we re going to see the rise of like super long videos on TikTok, like the 10 minute feature.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I know that sounds crazy.
6
SPEAKER_00
People are like, I hate watching long videos, but I think that I said this earlier this year at a panel, I m calling it short form fatigue.
6
SPEAKER_00
I think people are going to have short form fatigue on social media, which is like,
6
SPEAKER_00
when I m scrolling on my For You page, I want to be able to just find a long video and then brush my teeth while it plays.
6
SPEAKER_00
And YouTube, sometimes the discoverability is really hard on YouTube.
6
SPEAKER_00
And podcast discoverability is even harder.
6
SPEAKER_00
I found my few good podcasts that I love and listen to.
6
SPEAKER_00
But I think TikTok, the videos are just so short.
6
SPEAKER_00
So I think that we re going to see audiences in the next year, in 2024, we re going to see someone blow up on TikTok who makes eight-minute videos.
6
SPEAKER_00
That s going to be their thing.
6
SPEAKER_02
That s not surprising to me at all.
6
SPEAKER_02
you know, history kind of repeats itself.
6
SPEAKER_02
And I think what happens is this is maybe, I mean, now TikTok s aged up a bit, but it s a, I would think it s fair to say it s a younger generation of viewers.
6
SPEAKER_02
And I think what happens over time is your interests are broadened and you want more depth from the people you follow.
6
SPEAKER_02
And so you want more where it s like,
6
SPEAKER_02
a dance video at one point was enough, but then you re like, I want to know what you re wearing and what you re thinking and what you re eating.
6
SPEAKER_02
And then like, you don t want that in a 30 second form and where you re like, I need to actually hear what you re thinking about this event or this day.
6
SPEAKER_02
I think that s just like the natural progression of things as people age up.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Well, and like from a user perspective, when videos are really short, like I hated whenever people would say, oh, Vine is big.
6
SPEAKER_00
Like people s attention spans are only seven seconds.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s like less than a goldfish.
6
SPEAKER_00
I m like, I think it takes more brain power
6
SPEAKER_00
to like scroll every five seconds.
6
SPEAKER_00
And your brain has to process a new video, a new face, a new caption, a new topic, a new maybe sentence structure, a new comment section.
6
SPEAKER_00
And you have to decide in a split second if you want to watch it.
6
SPEAKER_00
And so every five seconds, your brain is all this new info, info, info.
6
SPEAKER_00
And it s exhausting.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I think that from a user point of view, they re just going to want to be able to open the app and find like long videos and enjoy them.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I even on the TikTok beta version, like if you go on their website on your desktop, they re testing out these podcast features.
6
SPEAKER_00
So I think there s going to be like a for you page, but like for podcasts.
6
SPEAKER_01
Sometimes I want to listen to a podcast when I m cooking or doing laundry or whatever I m doing, but I also want to see the person.
6
SPEAKER_01
So to put on a TikTok would be amazing.
6
SPEAKER_02
There s this book I read a long time ago, and I always recommend it.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s called The One Thing.
6
SPEAKER_02
And in that book, it talks about how multitasking is a facade and how we re actually, as humans, not good at multitasking.
6
SPEAKER_02
Like if I said, hey, do this podcast, but then let s sit down and go over our spreadsheet and then let s sit down.
6
SPEAKER_02
Like your brain is not equipped to do that.
6
SPEAKER_02
And there s a guy we re having on the show named Michael Easter, and he just wrote this book called Scarcity Brain.
6
SPEAKER_02
And a lot of it s about this endless scrolling and how it s actually maybe not the greatest thing.
6
SPEAKER_02
Well, we know it s not the greatest thing for the human brain.
6
SPEAKER_02
And so that doesn t surprise me at all because I think, like I was in the car today and I was like, I find myself sometimes endlessly scrolling on stuff like this is useless and this is not feeding.
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SPEAKER_02
And there s no takeaway because it s just so many things that I can t be like, oh, that one thing I m taking something.
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SPEAKER_01
If I ask both of you, what are the last
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five videos that you saw scrolling, you guys cannot remember.
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SPEAKER_00
That s crazy.
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SPEAKER_00
That s the problem.
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SPEAKER_00
But if I ask your last YouTuber podcast you clicked on, you know exactly who it was, why you would listen.
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SPEAKER_00
There s just no object permanence on TikTok.
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SPEAKER_00
Makes sense.
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and these platforms are really good about giving the dopamine hits.
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SPEAKER_02
And so I think you get to a point where you re just like, people get so fatigued because to your point, there s not a takeaway.
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SPEAKER_02
Even though the video might be valuable, it s just too many.
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You can t remember.
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SPEAKER_02
There s no retention.
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I also think like how many people can you actually like consume when you re consuming like six million?
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SPEAKER_01
It s like too many people.
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SPEAKER_01
It s like pick your pick your players.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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That s why sometimes like I ll get comments.
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It s so divisive.
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But I see the intro in some of my videos like, hi, I m Coco Moco.
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I work in media.
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And it s so repetitive.
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But I do it because it like it s a memorable like people can remember it.
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I almost feel like it s hypnotic.
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And when someone sees one hundred videos,
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If they hear me say that like 10 times over the course of a month, they re gonna like remember that.
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And so that intro doesn t work for everyone and it s not for every video, but it s just like a little thing that I do to try to like stand out and like people remember me.
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SPEAKER_01
It reminds me of a jingle like in the 60s, like a commercial.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, like what s the jingle?
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SPEAKER_01
Like there s so many good jingles.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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I remember like, Rice-a-roni, a San Francisco treat.
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SPEAKER_00
Yes.
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SPEAKER_00
Or I remember like,
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two and a half men like Charlie Sheen s character was like a jingle writer.
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SPEAKER_00
I don t know if you guys ever watched.
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SPEAKER_00
I didn t watch that show.
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SPEAKER_00
Oh, Charlie.
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SPEAKER_01
Charlie Sheen was doing more than jingle.
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SPEAKER_00
I know.
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SPEAKER_01
Yes.
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SPEAKER_01
Jingling his balls.
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SPEAKER_00
Come on the show.
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SPEAKER_01
I know that via a crazy podcast.
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SPEAKER_01
Are there any other marketing trends that we should be paying attention to?
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I guess I ll end on this note, which is so counterintuitive to what I do, but I always try to say this to people, which is I like to report on trends.
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I think that they re really great benchmarks to look back in history and be like, this is why people s attention was on this thing.
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But if you really want to stand out, if you really, really want to build a loyal following,
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SPEAKER_00
Don t pay attention to trends if anything like do the opposite because people are gonna have that itch for it and like culture swings like a pendulum So like like what we re talking about right now Everyone s doing short form tick-tock, you know 30-second videos, but like the the pendulum is gonna swing So if you re the person doing eight-minute videos and you have that muscle when the pendulum swings in six months you re gonna be the one that knocks it out of the park so like
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SPEAKER_00
I guess like it s not even a marketing trend, it s just like a philosophy, which is like pay attention to trends so then you can give people what they re missing.
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SPEAKER_01
That is damn good advice.
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SPEAKER_01
Before you go, what is a trend that you have predicted or trends that have been 100% right?
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I would say my first ever video that I did, I was talking about how I think the Tumblr aesthetic and just talking about Tumblr and stuff is gonna come back full force.
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And I swear, no one was talking about it back then.
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SPEAKER_00
This was last August or September.
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SPEAKER_00
And since then, the whole vibe has come back.
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SPEAKER_00
The 1975 has trended again.
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SPEAKER_00
Lana Del Rey is bigger than Tumblr.
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SPEAKER_00
I m like a Lana fan, but like she s had this resurgence of this new audience that didn t really find her from Tumblr, but like, and this one random sound on TikTok is trending and it s a G-Eazy Tumblr girls.
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SPEAKER_00
It s literally called Tumblr girls.
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SPEAKER_00
And like the aesthetic of like the like messy makeup and this kind of grunge like side bangs that was really big on Tumblr.
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SPEAKER_00
Like, so I really think that just the Tumblr
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discussions and aesthetic and vibe, like I called it last fall, I guess, late summer.
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SPEAKER_00
And I feel like it s been such a big trend this year.
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SPEAKER_01
following, Kim just said Tumblr Kylie s back.
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SPEAKER_00
She said that?
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SPEAKER_00
Kim Kardashian?
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SPEAKER_00
I think so.
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SPEAKER_00
I think she said that.
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SPEAKER_01
I know she said like King Kylie, but King Kylie was Tumblr.
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SPEAKER_01
Carson, double check that.
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SPEAKER_01
I m pretty sure she said that.
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SPEAKER_01
Michael, you don t even know what Tumblr is.
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SPEAKER_01
I even said it wrong.
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SPEAKER_01
I said Cumbler, but Tumblr.
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SPEAKER_01
When Michael does a side bang, when you do a dashboard confessional side bang.
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SPEAKER_01
Carson, Google, did Kim Kardashian say Tumblr Kylie is back?
7
SPEAKER_01
I think she did.
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SPEAKER_01
Michael, you re spending too much time scrolling.
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SPEAKER_01
Where can everyone find you?
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SPEAKER_01
Follow everything you re doing.
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SPEAKER_01
Pimp yourself out.
7
SPEAKER_00
Thank you.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
I mean, my biggest platform, of course, is TikTok at Coco Moco.
7
SPEAKER_00
I was right.
7
SPEAKER_01
Karsa says I m right.
7
SPEAKER_00
There we go.
7
SPEAKER_01
Told you, Lauren.
7
SPEAKER_01
Get on the tram, Lauren.
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SPEAKER_00
Yes.
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SPEAKER_00
Go, go, go.
7
SPEAKER_00
No, you re so good.
7
SPEAKER_00
I m happy that that was correct because I was like saying the word Tumblr, like that it was going to come back and then anyways.
7
SPEAKER_00
And then my like ultimate pride, like where I really love making videos and my best quality work is my podcast, Ahead of the Curve with Cocomoco.
7
SPEAKER_00
And that s where I get to like interview really cool people and dive into like whatever s trending and stuff.
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SPEAKER_00
So I m going to be doing a deep dive on the glossy book in my upcoming episode and what I think about it.
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SPEAKER_00
So, yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
Thank you so much for coming on.
7
SPEAKER_00
Thank you guys.
7
SPEAKER_01
Two things before you go, you can watch us now on YouTube.
7
SPEAKER_01
So you can go on YouTube, search the Skinny Confidential and watch our entire episodes on your computer or TV.
7
SPEAKER_01
Also, you should know Michael and I are doing a him and her newsletter.
7
SPEAKER_01
So basically it s a him and her tip of the day, five days a week.
7
SPEAKER_01
And the tips are very specific as you can imagine.
7
SPEAKER_01
And then we also have a monthly favorites.
7
SPEAKER_01
So basically we collect all our monthly favorites, everything we ve bought and used and tried and put it in one monthly newsletter for you to subscribe to the him and her tip newsletter.
7
SPEAKER_01
All you have to do is go to tscpodcast.com.
7
SPEAKER_01
That s tscpodcast.com.