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Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert.
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I m Dan Shepard, and I m joined by Mrs. Rathers.
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Hi there.
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Hi, how are you?
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SPEAKER_03
I m good.
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SPEAKER_03
I m sleepy.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you just had a couple big yawns.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I did.
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Your yawns betrayed your energy level.
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SPEAKER_02
I know.
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I was up pretty late watching makeup videos.
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SPEAKER_00
Okay, okay.
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Any good tips you want to pass on to the listeners?
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SPEAKER_00
Oh, so many.
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SPEAKER_02
I bought so many products.
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Oh, you did?
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Okay, you really went wild.
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Yeah, I did.
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Got that credit card out and let it rip.
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Apple Pay.
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Oh, baby.
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Sponsor.
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Sponsor.
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Today we have Dr. Maureen Dunn on, and she is a cognitive scientist, a neurodiversity expert, a global keynote speaker, a board director, and business leader.
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She also, which we ll talk about, is she was the first Rhodes Scholar out of community college.
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Really cool.
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She has a new book out now called The Neurodiversity Edge, The Essential Guide to Embracing Autism, ADHD, Dyslexia, and Other Neurological Differences for Any Organization.
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This was a very, very informative interview that ended up carrying into a bunch of other stuff we ve done since.
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Yeah, this is unlike any of the ones we ve had.
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I feel like we learned a lot.
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Yeah.
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It s good.
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Please enjoy Dr. Maureen Dunn.
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Hi there!
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How are you?
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SPEAKER_00
Welcome!
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Jimmy said he totally remembers that story, but he can t remember what actor it was, but he s gonna find out from Molly.
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Oh, that s great!
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Okay.
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Maureen, do you want to hear a crazy story that has nothing to do with this interview?
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Absolutely.
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There is some legendary actress or in search of who, who had a housekeeper for like 30 years.
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The housekeeper was saving all of her money and the housekeeper had built a replica of the actress s house in Mexico, where she was from.
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She ultimately retired, moved to the house that was a replica.
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And then the actress became insolvent and she ended up moving down to Mexico and living in the house.
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with her former housekeeper.
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We just got confirmation that that s a story.
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I can t wait to find out who.
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But we can t, we haven t found out quite yet who the person is.
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Did Selma Hayek tell us the story?
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Is she connected somehow?
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I feel like she s connected, but maybe that s just.
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I want it to be a movie.
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SPEAKER_00
Sounds like a movie, right?
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I want to see the whole thing play out.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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Wow.
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Okay, so how long are you in town?
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Until tomorrow.
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When did you get here?
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Wednesday.
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I had a couple other interviews.
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Okay.
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Do you like it out here?
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Absolutely.
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Be honest.
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No, I do.
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I lived in California for 10 years.
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Where?
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All over.
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For a while I was in San Diego and Del Mar and then I was doing work in Central Valley of all places.
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Something to do with agriculture?
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No.
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This goes back over 10 years where there was such little expertise in neurodiversity and I was recruited to be a resource.
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So I was doing a lot of work with Easterseals and other organizations.
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And so I was responsible for 10 counties for Monterey.
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Bakersfield, where I ended up having to spend a lot more of my time than I was anticipating in Fresno, though.
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And then after that, we were in San Francisco and Palo Alto for many years until a certain day in November 2016, when we were just talking about that before he came in.
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Completely changed my life.
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The same day Trump got elected, which no one anticipated, at least people in California, found out I was having triplets.
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So those two pieces of information... Oh, my goodness.
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Triplets.
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Now, is this an inappropriate question?
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Please tell me.
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When I find out someone s having triplets, my very first curiosity is like through in vitro or is this something that happened just on its own?
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And is that an invasive question?
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For most people, yes.
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It is.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Okay.
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But in my case, two out of the three are identical.
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I thought I was having one.
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I mean, I m small, right?
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So I m already like, OK, you re having twins.
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There s two fraternal twins.
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And then I honestly thought the doctor was joking.
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He s like, wait, wait, wait, wait.
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There s a third heartbeat.
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No, no.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And I was like, no, no, no, no, no.
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Wow.
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Because I never even knew anyone that had triplets.
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Right.
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I guess that s why I m immediately curious, because I obviously knew a bunch of twins growing up.
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I ve dated a couple different twins.
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They re run-of-the-mill twins.
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Triplets, now you re getting into some rare territory.
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Well, especially when you have the identicals, because, you know, you can t predict that at all.
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Yeah, that s an egg splitting in half.
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Correct.
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Yeah.
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But then another egg also.
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But then I also have, yeah, I wish my son, we were happy that the third triplet was a different gender.
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That is helpful, right?
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Yeah, because we already see, like, even now, my son feels left out, you know, sometimes.
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Like, they re best friends, but at the same time, the two, they re just inseparable, right?
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So if you imagine another girl that just, you know, yeah.
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It would ve killed her.
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That would ve been sad, yeah.
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That was my first thought when you said two are identical.
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We have two children, and when it was talked about it having a third, I m like, absolutely not.
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Two of them will ruin the middle one.
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That s just how it works.
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Not planning on three, yeah.
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We thought we were having one, and then maybe like a second later if we were lucky.
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And then it s like, wow.
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We had some struggles that first night.
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I was so prepared to be told like it didn t work out at all, right?
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And then it was like.
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Wow, triplets?
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Are you serious?
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Worked out 300%.
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They were born really early, 28 weeks.
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Which is normal.
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Things actually went pretty well up until the day they were born.
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You hope for like 32, 33 weeks.
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All triplets are most likely going to be born early.
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But 28 weeks is really, they re about two pounds each.
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So they spent three months in the NICU.
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Oh, that s so hard.
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That was tough, but they re doing great.
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You ve been through one of the most unique experiences of anyone we ve ever interviewed, really, because I only have the experience of one arrives and you re like, oh my God, I hope I can take care of this one thing and give all my attention to this one thing.
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I can t even imagine holding three and going like, I m going to do my best.
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It s scary.
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Yeah, and it was interesting because it was hard to even get people to help us.
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By the time they came home from the hospital, they were still only five pounds each, and they still seemed really fragile.
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My husband and I were just a great team.
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And were you on your own in the Bay Area?
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So I lost both my parents relatively young, and then my husband and I are both neurodivergent too, yet we have triplets.
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Oh, wow.
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It s a super complicated but hopefully inspiring story, I hope, for other people out there.
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But we were in the Bay Area at the time.
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We made this decision then to move back to where I grew up.
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Not that we would have a lot of necessarily help, but the kids kind of get to know their cousins.
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Also, you can have a backyard to dump them in and let them run wild and feral.
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Yeah, well, you know, yeah, but what I guess I didn t anticipate in making that decision, having lost both my parents and then going back to the home, you know, somewhere where I never, you know, really anticipated moving back to, right?
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With just my husband, I ended up being in a situation where we really could work from anywhere.
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We had a lot of relationships globally.
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And after both my parents had died, I put everything into a storage unit.
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And then I started going through all that stuff.
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You re processing all this shit you probably ignored for decades.
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Right.
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And then like going to places where my parents, it was very weird because of grief and loss from an early age, there were certain memories just weren t as accessible to me.
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Right.
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But then being back there with my own kids, all these memories started coming back.
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Yeah, because I ll say also just the act of having kids forces you to remember your childhood in a weird way.
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For me at least.
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Absolutely.
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You re watching them go through this stuff and then you just inevitably start remembering where you were at when this happened or what environment you were in.
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You kind of use yourself as a comp, I guess, as you re going through this.
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And how were you parented and what did your parents do and what worked and what didn t you like?
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Right.
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Yeah, so it already forces you back a little bit and then to be physically where you were at too.
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It s been an interesting experience.
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All right, so can I ask you a very frank question with tons of love?
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I don t know that you re neurodivergent and I don t know which variety and I want to make sure I m as helpful as humanly possible.
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I have a good friend who s autistic and I know how to be very explicit.
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So I don t know what version you have and I would love to know if there s anything I can do that is helpful.
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Okay, yeah.
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Part of what s exciting me to be here is to talk about the complexity and nuance in which neurodivergencies can manifest themselves.
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So I ll start out by saying that when I tell people I m neurodivergent, people that know me really well, if I don t say the type, most people would assume I m dyslexic, but I m not.
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So this is what s really interesting is that a lot of how I present ends up being a dyslexic profile, but I m actually hyperlexic.
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There s a couple different, so I ll get into the complexity there, but I started reading from a really young age.
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I was reading full books by the time I was three.
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In college, I was reading 10 books a day, you know, but I was doing it in this way that was not typical.
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You can t read two pages with either eye, can you?
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I have seen a doc about people that can do that.
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This is me self-reflecting rather than a scientific theory, but I ve realized that what I do is somehow my brain, basically the full phonological loop, how most people read, it s disrupted or I m not using that part of my brain and I m abstracting meaning just from pattern abstraction with my eyes.
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So like a full snapshot of it at once.
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I can abstract the meaning.
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So it s like I don t sound out every word.
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So I can get through a book.
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in like half an hour and then like get a mind map out.
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Now, that doesn t work really well if I really want to enjoy like a piece of fiction.
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Well, my immediate question was going to be, so I m the opposite, right?
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I m dyslexic, but I find that the upside of it is I have insane retention.
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I seem to have better retention than the status quo.
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I seem to be over indexing.
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So I m wondering, is the reverse true for you?
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So if you re taking on so much at such a speed, do you feel like you pay a price with retention?
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Where I pay a price, this is why I push myself not to do it for fiction, it s more like when I was doing my PhD and I was doing another master s at the same time and doing very interdisciplinary work and I was just trying to get information.
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It s helpful if you re just abstracting information, but it s really not enjoyable if you re trying to like
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Get lost.
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Flowery language.
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Right.
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So, but I think the interesting price, and this is where I come across as dyslexic, is that I was reading so early that I think my brain is so wired in an orthographic sense that sometimes I mispronounce words that I read before I heard them or if I haven t heard them, you know?
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And so dyslexia obviously has a connection with the phonological loop.
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There s some challenges there.
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Explain the phonological loop because I don t know.
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There s a verbal working memory.
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So I m a cognitive scientist by training, so that s for my PhDs.
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And so that also, I guess, has helped me think a lot about these types of things.
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And generally speaking, phonological awareness is really important to reading.
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There s inner speech going on.
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It s how you sound out words and pronounce them correctly.
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And so it kind of factors into how the brain works with reading and spelling.
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And so for me, just because I, you know, this is my sort of theory of myself,
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Yeah, you re juggling two things.
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You have your self-narrative, and then you have your work as a cognitive researcher, right?
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, correct, correct.
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So, you know, these aren t always in accord, and they wouldn t make for a good study or a published work, but alas, you re also a person who has a story about themselves.
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Yeah, for sure.
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You know, just thinking about it, I realize I m increasingly becoming more conscious of it.
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At certain points in my life, I maybe would have said, like, preface rather than preface, right?
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Or something like that.
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This orthographic, that s so strong.
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That s where your dominant language is.
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Yeah.
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And so I m bypassing this phonological loop.
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And so it s like my eyes are abstracting meaning.
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So especially for things that I ve never heard before, you know, it doesn t seem to happen for things I ve heard first auditorily and hadn t read.
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An easy analogy, correct me if I m wrong, would be like, I think a lot of people can read a foreign language and even write a foreign language, but they can t speak a foreign language.
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Or they re strong at the reading and writing of the foreign language, but the verbal aspect, there are six deviations below that.
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Right.
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That s just sort of the surface.
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What I m hoping to convey to in this interview is how so many neurodivergent people, there s a lot of people out there that don t fit one box really neatly and are looking for their tribe.
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It s complicated.
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And for me, I knew I was hyperlexic as a child, but then I actually excelled through elementary school.
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I was lucky that I was in an elementary school where people that did well in school were actually popular.
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But then when I was in high school, I was at a public high school, there was 4,000 students and I really, really struggled in high school.
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SPEAKER_01
Like I really struggled to fit in socially and I started to become much, much more aware of like how spiky my profile was.
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Clearly, at that time, you had an explanation, right?
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One of the more fascinating examples of this I ever heard is that book, The Big Short, was based on an article in Vanity Fair in a profile of the guy who had been smart enough to bet against all of these mortgage-backed securities.
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And he had a glass eye.
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And so his whole life, he explained his social, in quotes, awkwardness by having this glass eye.
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And then he had a child who was struggling in school, went through a barrage of tests and was diagnosed as autistic.
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SPEAKER_00
And the father said that he s not autistic.
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SPEAKER_00
Well, here s the test.
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You tell me how he would answer to these and see if it s right.
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He himself took the test and went, oh, my God, I am autistic.
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This whole story about my glass eye, it wasn t the glass eye.
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It was autism.
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You ll fill in the blank, right?
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SPEAKER_01
Oh, absolutely.
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That s just how our brains work.
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SPEAKER_01
And for me, it was extra complicated because my mom was dying from breast cancer.
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SPEAKER_01
And so essentially what happened in high school anyway, I wasn t told of any particular diagnosis, but I was struggling.
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SPEAKER_01
You know, I had a lot of sensory sensitivities, especially during lunch hour.
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SPEAKER_01
That was an absolute nightmare.
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SPEAKER_01
Torture.
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SPEAKER_01
Absolutely torture.
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SPEAKER_01
The auditory overwhelm.
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SPEAKER_01
The only place I could go without a hall pass was the bathroom, right?
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SPEAKER_01
I remember in high school escaping to the bathroom.
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SPEAKER_00
Oh, Marina, I want to hug you.
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SPEAKER_00
No, I hate that.
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SPEAKER_01
This is where it gets really complicated, though, is we had such a short period of time where we could have our lunch.
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SPEAKER_01
And so some high school counselor caught me throwing out my lunch, and she got it completely wrong.
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SPEAKER_01
So then she had in her mind I had an eating disorder.
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SPEAKER_00
Which I totally didn t, right?
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SPEAKER_01
I didn t even think about that kind of thing.
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SPEAKER_01
And so then she calls up my parents and tries to hospitalize me for an eating disorder, which I didn t have.
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SPEAKER_01
So my mom, she knew I didn t have an eating disorder.
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And so suddenly I m being called out of class for doctor appointments that weren t really doctor appointments.
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And she d pick me up and we d go out to lunch together.
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And so that made it so much harder than to lose her so young because I felt like she knew me better than I knew myself.
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SPEAKER_01
And then I was bullied in high school.
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I had so many issues.
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SPEAKER_01
And then I ended up graduating early and going to community college.
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SPEAKER_00
This is why you re a spokesperson for community college.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, absolutely.
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SPEAKER_00
Only community college that became a Rhodes Scholar.
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SPEAKER_00
Rhodes Scholar.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
That s cool.
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SPEAKER_01
Oh, I love that.
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Or the first, yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
I think there s maybe one or two more after me, but yeah, I was the first.
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SPEAKER_00
And you got it from community college or just that was part of your journey?
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it was part of my journey.
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SPEAKER_01
So I graduated high school early.
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SPEAKER_00
How early?
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I was a junior, so like 16 and a half, and then I m an elected official now.
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So I m one of the few openly neurodivergent elected officials too around the country.
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So I was board chair and I serve as a trustee at the same college I got my start at.
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SPEAKER_01
But yeah, I graduated high school early and then was at community college and then transferred to University of Chicago.
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SPEAKER_01
I d done so many credits at community college that I was in like a joint bachelor master s program at University of Chicago.
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SPEAKER_01
It was just incredibly unusual to have that much of your undergraduate education be accounted by community college and be competing with people that spent four years at Harvard.
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SPEAKER_01
So a good part of my undergraduate education that they had evaluated me on was from community college.
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SPEAKER_01
Right.
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SPEAKER_00
OK, but really quick, back to being in the bathroom during lunch break.
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SPEAKER_00
Did you have a story that made sense to you?
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SPEAKER_00
Was there something that you identified as like, well, this is the issue?
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SPEAKER_01
What was interesting was most of my life I was just identified as being gifted.
1
SPEAKER_01
I was a pianist competing at age four and just doing so many things that were sort of abnormal.
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SPEAKER_01
I think it was just a very confusing time for me in high school because
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SPEAKER_00
I guess you already felt different.
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SPEAKER_00
You had been different.
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SPEAKER_00
I knew I was different.
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SPEAKER_01
It was always a positive thing.
1
SPEAKER_01
It was always a positive thing.
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And then I m in this environment where my profile was just so much more spiky than it had been.
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SPEAKER_01
It s even started to affect me academically, which had never happened before.
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SPEAKER_01
I was just confused.
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SPEAKER_01
I didn t have a full explanation of what was going on.
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SPEAKER_01
And then when I was in my twenties, I was diagnosed with ADHD, but I knew that was definitely not the full explanation.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
My husband s ADHD and he s textbook ADHD and I m not like him, but there s some things that make sense.
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SPEAKER_01
I was pretty impulsive as a teenager too.
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SPEAKER_01
I did so much humanitarian work.
1
SPEAKER_01
I would get on planes, go to places like Zimbabwe.
1
SPEAKER_01
I was a lot more impulsive than I am now, but going through this process when I moved back and digging through all this stuff in storage, then I realized that I fit in this, what we d call ADHD, you know, sort of these intersections of ADHD and autism.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think this is important.
1
SPEAKER_00
We just had Lisa DeMoron, who s a clinical psychologist.
1
SPEAKER_00
And we spent a lot of time talking about how kind of arbitrary all of the labels are in the DSM, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
That it s very tempting to think that these are cut and dry conditions, like type one diabetic or something.
1
SPEAKER_00
But in fact, it s just this broad spectrum of human behavior that we do our best to say it s this.
1
SPEAKER_00
And obviously it applies here with all of this neurodivergence, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, human beings are incredibly complex and you know part of why I focus my expertise and studies in this area is I think there s so much we still don t know, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
I think we re in the infancy of understanding cognitive science and neuroscience.
1
SPEAKER_00
Is it almost a waste of time to be trying to delineate the difference between all the little things?
1
SPEAKER_01
I think it s part of the path to progress.
1
SPEAKER_01
For a long time I kind of felt like I m not really sure where I fit in here.
1
SPEAKER_01
I don t really fit in anywhere because I m like at the intersections of these boxes, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
And then one of the strongest neurodivergences I think that come into play now for me is conceptual synesthesia.
1
SPEAKER_00
We were saying synesthesia, but that s different.
1
SPEAKER_00
Is that different?
1
SPEAKER_01
Well, no, no, no.
1
SPEAKER_01
There s 80 plus types of different synesthesia, and I actually have two different types.
1
SPEAKER_01
And there s over-representative in the arts and musicians, and there s also some Nobel Prize winners.
1
SPEAKER_01
So the two types that I have that I think have really been a huge asset and to me neurodiversity is a huge asset.
1
SPEAKER_01
It shouldn t be seen as a trade-off and that was a big part of my book.
1
SPEAKER_01
There needs to be a paradigm shift.
1
SPEAKER_01
We need to think about this differently.
1
SPEAKER_01
But for me, having started out my chapter
2
SPEAKER_01
childhood as a musician, I think what helped me, so I have one of the more common types of synthesias where sounds and music is translated into like colors.
2
SPEAKER_00
Literally before you got here, we re doing a fact check when you re talking about the exact thing.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like 10 minutes ago.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s so crazy.
2
SPEAKER_00
Pharrell has it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh yeah, Tori Amos, you know, lots.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s common to musicians, especially, and artists.
2
SPEAKER_01
What s, I think, maybe even more strong for me now is just something called conceptual synesthesia, where I experience ideas in a way that is translated as shapes.
2
SPEAKER_01
Everyone thinks everyone else thinks like them, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
So that one is less known, even like with my background, there s not as much research on that.
2
SPEAKER_01
So it took me a while to realize how important that
2
SPEAKER_01
has been to my success in a way.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m what you d call a projector with conceptual synesthesia, where it s almost like being surrounded by white boards and being able to put different abstract concepts in space and then combine those concepts, have them all in space around me.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then, you know.
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SPEAKER_01
Organized.
2
SPEAKER_01
organize those.
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SPEAKER_01
And even when I was writing my book, I found that was this huge asset.
2
SPEAKER_01
I probably was driving my publisher nuts because I reorganized things a bunch of times, but in my mind, like I could put these concepts in space, combine ideas.
2
SPEAKER_00
Take the pieces and just move them about.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Combine them.
2
SPEAKER_00
So when you were at University of Chicago doing the BA and the master s, what was your focus at that point academically?
2
SPEAKER_00
Was it cognitive science already?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so I was in this joint BA, MA, and my bachelor s I had officially met the requirements for psychology and sociology, but also did a lot of philosophy.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then my master s was in this cognitive sciences and I had to finish both at the same time.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I finished both those degrees in three years.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then you go off to London School of Economics or Oxford?
2
SPEAKER_01
Oxford, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I was named a Rhodes Scholar and I was in Oxford and then this overlapped with, so my mom had been diagnosed when I was a teenager and she actually ended up living longer than what was predicted.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I was back and forth a lot my first year at Oxford, but I was doing my PhD, which there they call it a DPhil.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then in between my doctorate, I did another degree at London School of Economics.
2
SPEAKER_00
Are those in close proximity to each other, or were you traveling a great distance?
2
SPEAKER_01
I was living in Oxford.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, would take the train to do my classes.
2
SPEAKER_01
The British universities are pretty different.
2
SPEAKER_01
It was interesting to acclimate to how things were there.
2
SPEAKER_00
I can just point out, tenderly,
2
SPEAKER_00
It s not like you had mastered the high school dynamic.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then now you go to another country where there s yet an entire, like all the little subtleties.
2
SPEAKER_01
For sure.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then going through grief, there s a very different cultural way of dealing with grief there.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know, stiff upper lip.
2
SPEAKER_01
My path, like most people, wasn t linear.
2
SPEAKER_01
There was a lot of interruptions.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it was during that time that I spent a lot of energy doing more creative work.
2
SPEAKER_01
I was supposed to be working on my
2
SPEAKER_01
in my PhD, but I did end up spending a lot of time in my bathtub writing fiction and music.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I think that made me just a much more self-aware person doing meditation, you know.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, stuff that s more self-exploratory.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then also just coming to terms with things my mom told me, you know, when she died.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like, I suspected it, but I didn t really know I was neurodivergent until she was dying.
2
SPEAKER_01
And after I was a Rhodes Scholar, then she tells me like, hey, by the way, you re kind of different.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, my God.
2
SPEAKER_00
Do you think that would have been useful to hear earlier?
2
SPEAKER_01
Ah, it s like one of those things where you know you re different, but most of my life I was told it was just because I was gifted.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_01
But I knew that wasn t the full explanation.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s just my story.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think it would have been helpful because it was kind of like a shock.
2
SPEAKER_00
So my friend Ricky, who s been on here to talk about it, so I m not divulging anything he wouldn t want me to, he got a diagnosis and then all of a sudden he literally had to flick through every page of his past.
2
SPEAKER_00
And go like, oh, that time on the porch when the kids told me to do this, that was that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, the fact that I only wear basketball shorts and I have a reason for it, but it s not that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, you know, really almost his entire life has to completely get refiled.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know, it s like the same data points, but you start to see everything through a different lens.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes, it s so wild.
2
SPEAKER_01
I know so many people in leadership positions, really high level positions that are neurodivergent.
2
SPEAKER_01
And part of why I wrote the book, too, was we need to do better at becoming aware of our unconscious biases, because there s already a lot of people in leadership positions that are reluctant to disclose.
2
SPEAKER_01
And the more that there s an appreciation for cognitive differences and realizing our collective future depends on unique problem solvers.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, you say in the book, one in five people are neurodivergent.
2
SPEAKER_00
So right away, yeah, 20% of the population.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s definitely significant enough.
2
SPEAKER_00
This isn t an anomaly.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is a significant portion of the population.
2
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t know.
2
SPEAKER_00
You can tell me if this is true.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is, you re a doctor in this.
2
SPEAKER_00
Someone told me that they have bee colonies and there are certain bees that are in charge of going out and exploring and looking for new areas that they might have pollen.
2
SPEAKER_00
They don t work with the normal group.
2
SPEAKER_00
They re divergent.
2
SPEAKER_00
And if you give them ADHD medication, those divergent bees stop going out and exploring for it.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s just this great little example of, no, no, this isn t an accident that we ve evolved this way.
2
SPEAKER_00
We have this diversity.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s why we ve succeeded as a species for 300,000 years and as a hominid for six million.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is supposed to be and it s baked in and we got to be careful what we re trying to.
2
SPEAKER_00
change everyone into.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s really interesting.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I do bring up because in chapter one about what I call the divergent bees, some researchers, they believe there s 80 percent that follow this sort of pre-programmed waggle dance.
2
SPEAKER_01
The waggle dance is a way in which the bees communicate with each other to find already known sources of pollen.
2
SPEAKER_01
But then I think what you re referring to is there s 20 percent that I guess if they re not medicated, fly off in these seemingly random directions.
2
SPEAKER_01
and aren t following their scripted instructions of what they re supposed to be doing.
2
SPEAKER_01
But what it turns out is that 20% is actually responsible for discovering new sources of pollen and that benefits the whole hive in the community.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that s really important.
2
SPEAKER_01
to think about how we think about neurodivergency today or some of the biases that end up unfortunately coming into play.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think a lot of people are evaluating people from some theoretical, perfect, neurotypical standard of how things should be and not looking at it from like a community perspective or how we can complement each other.
2
SPEAKER_01
We don t all have to be the same.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, also, let s just add that the 80% that s non-neurodivergent, they re in their own columns as well.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, it doesn t stop there.
2
SPEAKER_00
That 80% has a whole range of other things that if you really were to chop it all up, there s not really any type of person that s going to even be a majority of humans on planet Earth.
2
SPEAKER_01
But one of the challenges I really see as a huge problem in our brains are wired to do these mental shortcuts.
2
SPEAKER_01
There are a lot of biases that come into play.
2
SPEAKER_01
One is the availability bias where our brains, whatever s most psychologically available, we tend to take more seriously.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that factors in a lot with our assumptions about neurodivergent people.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know, a lot of well-intentioned people, they ll make assumptions, especially about like autistic people based on very unrepresentative examples that they saw in the movies.
2
SPEAKER_00
Rain Man in the 80s.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
2
SPEAKER_01
The Rain Man, you know, Big Bang Theory.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know, and it s mostly like white Caucasian boys or men.
2
SPEAKER_01
So the more we could showcase the diversity and the nuance and the richness of how even autism manifests itself and the overlap with other neurodivergences like we talked about, that s, I think, helpful to combat some of these stereotypes.
2
SPEAKER_01
And there s a lot of neurodivergent people.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, myself, I consider myself an extrovert.
2
SPEAKER_01
But you say you re neurodivergent, then they start making all sorts of assumptions about what you can and can t do.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you write in here, which I like, is that if you were to bring someone over and you told us that they were neurodivergent, we would have no basis to extrapolate that fact into any preconceptions about the person s intellectual capabilities, general knowledge, or capacity to successfully perform any task or role.
2
SPEAKER_00
I do think there s these stereotypes.
2
SPEAKER_00
And by the way, some of them are in quote positive.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like if someone s autistic because the first one we saw, they could count toothpicks when they landed on the ground.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re like, okay, so what s the special thing you can do?
2
SPEAKER_00
And that s coupled with this thing I want you to tell us about, which is that we ve been stuck in a paradigm, which is a deficit based perspective or a medical deficit model.
2
SPEAKER_00
So explain that to us.
2
SPEAKER_00
And how does that limit our ability to see a full spectrum human and many different variety of full spectrum human?
2
SPEAKER_01
That s been sort of the legacy framework.
2
SPEAKER_01
There s been so much of a focus on the deficit medical perspective that then ends up overshadowing or understanding the richness of talent and the strengths that are there, which there s many.
2
SPEAKER_01
And there s also a lot of talent that given the sort of neurotypical standards of evaluation are easy to miss.
2
SPEAKER_01
nonlinear thinking, lateral thinking, systems thinking, pattern detection.
2
SPEAKER_01
There s a lot of really important skills that I would argue are going to become even more important to the future that we have in front of us with AI becoming so prevalent.
2
SPEAKER_01
But going back to the bee example, you look at the medical deficit paradigm versus a strength-based paradigm.
2
SPEAKER_01
The
3
SPEAKER_01
deficit model would see four bees that are performing well, give them their gold stars right for fitting in, doing the waggle dance, and then that fifth bee who s doing things different, who s not following the waggle dance, would be seen as the outcast, would be marginalized and... Maybe even potentially disruptive to the other four.
3
SPEAKER_01
For sure.
3
SPEAKER_01
And yet, you know, there s some researchers that study this kind of thing and that divergent bee is actually really essential to the success of the entire hive community.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so it doesn t mean that there aren t people that will need support and accommodations in that.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m not dismissing any of that, but I think it s important to recognize that there s lots of different skill sets where we complement.
3
SPEAKER_01
each other and the teams that I think that are the most successful are going to be the ones that have cognitive diversity.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I talk a lot about some of the perils of group things.
3
SPEAKER_01
There s been some really interesting studies there.
3
SPEAKER_00
Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.
3
SPEAKER_00
So the broad scope of the neurodiversity at your book is really imploring business owners and people who hire to get past this and start seeing neurodivergent folks as an asset.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then I want to get into some of the data that would support that.
3
SPEAKER_00
But if we could go through, if you re willing, some of the strength-based framework for people.
3
SPEAKER_00
Let s start with autism.
3
SPEAKER_00
What would be a strength-based framework for that?
3
SPEAKER_01
It s important, again, to recognize that every autistic person is very unique.
3
SPEAKER_00
My friend Ricky says, if you meet someone with autism, you ve met one person with autism.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yep.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s the phrase that we use in the community a lot.
3
SPEAKER_01
But autistic people in terms of the research, there s a lot of uncommon skills in terms of focus on details, hyper-focus, which also overlaps with a lot of ADHDers also can hyper-focus.
3
SPEAKER_01
pattern recognitions, there s sometimes unique visual-spatial skills.
3
SPEAKER_01
There s been some interesting studies.
3
SPEAKER_01
Personally, I think there should be a neurodivergent person on every board of directors because I ve been on a lot of boards myself and the level of groupthink that sometimes happens on boards.
3
SPEAKER_00
And halo effect and all these.
3
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely, it s like disastrous.
3
SPEAKER_01
And autistic people in particular, there s all sorts of research about how they re just less susceptible to some of these cognitive biases.
3
SPEAKER_00
Would they track higher on the disagreeability chart when we look at the psychological profile?
3
SPEAKER_01
Like challengers?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I just, I would imagine, here s my, having read no studies about it, I would imagine if your experience through all of school
3
SPEAKER_00
was met with so much discomfort one-on-one socially that the notion of being seen as anti-social like you ve already dealt with that s not some foreign fear you have.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like you ve been kind of living in some of that discomfort.
3
SPEAKER_00
So to do it now in this boardroom is like just another day in life.
3
SPEAKER_00
By the way, I say disagreeability is a positive.
3
SPEAKER_00
I find myself to be disagreeable, so I like disagreeability.
3
SPEAKER_01
I ve been on a lot of boards.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s a huge problem when there s nobody that brings up the obvious problems.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s not good for the organization.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s not good for the company.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think it applies to a lot of neurodivergent people, but there s research specifically on autistic people where they re going to be less concerned about their social status and more willing to just be super direct and honest and say, hey,
3
SPEAKER_01
This is a problem, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
This thing s going to blow up when it hits 20,000 feet.
3
SPEAKER_01
Not so focused on climbing a ladder or something esoteric like that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right.
3
SPEAKER_01
And doing a lot of independent analysis.
3
SPEAKER_01
And there s been a number of interesting studies.
3
SPEAKER_01
There s one where autistic people were not influenced by these marketing gimmicks and framing techniques, but most neurotypical people.
3
SPEAKER_01
were or they were less influenced.
3
SPEAKER_01
There was another study with children where the researchers purposely misled the participants in what was the correct answer, which should have been extremely obvious of what the correct answer was.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, does this line match this other line?
3
SPEAKER_01
And there was no ambiguity in terms of like what the correct answer was.
3
SPEAKER_01
But most of the neurotypical kids went along because they were misled.
3
SPEAKER_01
There was a social pressure.
3
SPEAKER_00
There was a social pressure.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, the waggle dance, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
And the autistic kids were far, far, far less likely to go along with an incorrect and obviously incorrect answer, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
What s a strength-based framework for dyslexics?
3
SPEAKER_00
Of course, they selfishly want to know this.
3
SPEAKER_00
In case I have to find myself back in the job marketplace.
3
SPEAKER_01
A lot of people in leadership positions that are dyslexic.
3
SPEAKER_01
I actually read a study recently, which was super interesting, that there s a large percentage of millionaires, I think it was 40%, that are dyslexic or have dyslexic traits.
3
SPEAKER_01
But some of the traits that are discussed a lot is big picture thinking, connecting dots among
3
SPEAKER_01
Seemingly unrelated areas like systems thinking.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so that s where it s interesting for me too is, you know, interpersonal skills.
3
SPEAKER_01
I feel like I have those skills, but yet I m not.
3
SPEAKER_01
So this is where I think we re in the infancy to brain science and neuroscience 10, 15 years from now, we ll understand a lot of these nuances a lot better.
3
SPEAKER_01
I present in a lot of ways as a dyslexic in terms of my strengths and challenges, but then that s not.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
put all these different types of people in an fMRI?
3
SPEAKER_00
Would we be able to observe this?
3
SPEAKER_01
Some things.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, fMRIs, that s definitely helped in terms of progressing the field and understanding more because if you go back, say, like 20, 30 years even, a lot of people thought things were a lot more fixed.
3
SPEAKER_01
than they are with the brain.
3
SPEAKER_01
Jerry Fodor wrote a book called Modularity of Mind.
3
SPEAKER_01
So the thinking has definitely shifted a lot.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think we still have a long way to go, but we do know if you decide to learn a musical instrument, even as an older person, over time that does change your brain.
3
SPEAKER_01
You see certain areas of the brain being activated.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s highly malleable.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
We have a much better understanding of neuroplasticity than we did 15 years ago, for sure.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so obviously, or what seems obvious to me, the initial barrier of finding employment if you re neurodivergent is that it s a highly social entrance to any job.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s a job interview.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s a hurdle.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, part of the problem too is that people have gotten accustomed to doing ads a certain way and job interviews a certain way and that in many cases is not consistent with the skills that are actually necessary for that job.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so that s, I think, a big problem.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then also, if you re talking about autistic people in particular, there s all these talents, and I think this applies to a lot of neurodivergent people, there s conceptual synthesis even, you know, there s all these talents that aren t going to be communicated in a verbal interview.
3
SPEAKER_01
And employers should want to find alternative ways of evaluating and assessing talent to attract unique talent that could really be this huge competitive edge.
3
SPEAKER_00
So here s one little bit of, I guess you could call this pushback or some cynicism on my part, but obviously many industries over-index in neurodivergent employees.
3
SPEAKER_00
I guess you would know whether there s data or not.
3
SPEAKER_00
So what do you mean by over-index?
3
SPEAKER_00
So I would imagine computer programming overindexes.
3
SPEAKER_00
I would imagine engineers overindex.
3
SPEAKER_00
I think there s many different compartments of our economy that actually overindex.
3
SPEAKER_00
So it s like, what about their hiring process just allowed for this all to happen?
3
SPEAKER_00
And do we need to push or do people just find their way knowing that these are some industries that not only take on but are overrepresented?
3
SPEAKER_00
Should we be trying to force everyone into every bracket of the sphere, or is it fine that people are going to excel in different compartments?
3
SPEAKER_01
You bring up a good point, because I think one of the criticisms in the community is the neurodiversity community is a very broad community.
3
SPEAKER_01
There s lots of talented people in the arts and design and are not, you know, in STEM.
3
SPEAKER_01
There is, I think, a lack of opportunity pathways, especially outside of these tech careers.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, that s kind of, again, another stereotype, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
That people that are neurodivergent are going to be in cybersecurity.
3
SPEAKER_00
Employers have no problem crossing that barrier when they need the people.
3
SPEAKER_00
We see evidence of that.
3
SPEAKER_00
All these companies have gotten past that.
3
SPEAKER_00
What s obvious is if there is a commercial incentive, they will do it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And maybe it s that the other one s not obvious.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that is the argument you re making.
3
SPEAKER_00
But I just I want to call attention to that, that when there s an incentive there, employers have responded.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that s one of the reasons I have a chapter, I explicitly bring up the economics, trying to connect with employers.
3
SPEAKER_01
We re in a structural labor shortage too, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
And there should be a strong incentive to do things differently.
3
SPEAKER_01
I would say that sometimes employers think they know what they need, but they don t always.
3
SPEAKER_01
know what they really need.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so where we re headed in the future work and the economic landscape we have in front of us, I think there s been so much focus on, okay, how do I integrate technology and AI systems?
3
SPEAKER_01
And there hasn t been enough focus on what is the human resource strategy that we should be employing?
3
SPEAKER_01
And I think across the board, even outside of some of these areas that have been more identified by employers as being consistent with
4
SPEAKER_01
what they think neurodivergent people are a good fit with.
4
SPEAKER_01
Broader skill sets in intuitive leaps of insight in lateral thinking and non-linear thinking, systems thinking.
4
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People that are comfortable thinking outside the boxes.
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People that are used to their whole lives.
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They ve been finding creative workarounds.
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That s really valuable.
4
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Learning to survive.
4
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Yeah, I think it s really valuable, right?
4
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Like if you re constantly problem solving in unique ways, especially in the economic context we have in front of us, I think there s this unique place for neurodivergent people to work with neurotypical people and all the machine intelligence that s going to inevitably, whether we like it or not, it s going to come into play.
4
SPEAKER_00
Is there data on the overall unemployment rate of neurodivergent people?
4
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Yes, and it s very depressing.
4
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So if you combine all the categories of neurodivergent typologies, it s somewhere between 30 and 40 percent unemployment.
4
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And then we re looking at maybe 15, 20 percent of the world population being neurodivergent.
4
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And then the U.S.
4
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alone is well under 4 percent unemployment overall.
4
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So there s this huge, huge disproportionality.
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a 5x difference?
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Huge disproportionality with talented people that have a lot to contribute and lack of meaningful opportunities to be able to self-actualize.
4
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Is there a proposed approach for HR that is going to help them identify this and start being more open-minded?
4
SPEAKER_00
Is there like a recommended protocol
4
SPEAKER_01
It s not really a standard.
4
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The good news is that we re finally at a point where neurodiversity is starting to become more of a mainstream conversation at least, and there are a lot of companies that are making progress.
4
SPEAKER_01
The approach that I recommend is a very values-driven approach and doing the deeper work at the level of organizational culture.
4
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You know, I ve worked with a number of companies that I think were well-intentioned and wanted to make
4
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progress and becoming murder and murderousy friendly.
4
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But there is a big difference if you do a surface level.
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, you said there s two models basically out there.
4
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There is the token neurodivergent employee to appear to be neuroinclusive.
4
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That s a bad option.
4
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Another bad option is, you know, it s coming.
4
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Eventually you ll have to.
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These are like the two options on the table.
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And what you can do to actually make your organization genuinely valuing cognitive differences.
4
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And I ve seen a lot of organizations that start out with this sort of tick the box approach, which has been really ineffective.
4
SPEAKER_00
We need two dyslexics, three autistics, and a hyperlexic by Friday.
4
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That doesn t work.
4
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I think the organizations that have committed to doing this deeper work at the level of the DNA of their organization or culture, it doesn t just open the doors to attract unique talent, including neurodivergent talent, but I think it helps
4
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all their employees be more productive because there s, you know, a different level of psychological safety.
4
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You could challenge the status quo that s encouraged, that s accepted.
4
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There s more of a growth mindset.
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I try to focus there because I think that s where there s that real competitive edge and where companies and organizations are going to attract the best talent.
4
SPEAKER_00
Also, it just crossed my mind, really, maybe starting with the gatekeeper, like there should be many more neurodivergent HR people actually doing the employee because they re not going to have the same
4
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reaction.
4
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And also, I don t think companies realize that the vast majority already have 15, 20 percent, even sometimes their executive leadership, their neurodivergent, they re just not disclosing.
4
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And I ve worked with companies where there s behind the scenes, these secret support groups going on where people are meeting and supporting each other.
4
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But they re, you know, they re closeted.
4
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
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That s a huge problem because look at the younger generations.
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I think it s important that these leaders are visible, but that it has to be psychologically safe to do so.
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They can t be penalized.
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And I ve seen that happen, unfortunately.
4
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And so that s where I try to focus on the organizational culture.
4
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One of the other things I found that has been effective that has surprised me is I ve done a lot of work in the community college system.
4
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And when I was president of my state association, the Illinois Community College Trustees Association, I spearheaded a project where we were the first state level educational association that passed a neurodiversity inclusion value statement.
4
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And then that led to some
4
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legislation in the state house in Illinois.
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Some people are like, oh, well, you know, it s just a value statement.
4
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Does that really change anything?
4
SPEAKER_01
But what s been really interesting is then to see how that has been like an interesting starting point where then some of these colleges, like Oakton College is an example.
4
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There s many others where there s that buy-in.
4
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So if the board of trustees adopt that statement and then the president is behind it and the cabinet,
4
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And that s opened the door for these broader conversations of like, oh, well, how can we do things differently?
4
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Maybe we could do things better.
4
SPEAKER_01
Do we have a sensory friendly space on campus?
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Maybe we could do more trainings across the board in the college with faculty.
4
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Maybe we could be more flexible.
4
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And I ve kind of then see the simple value statement actually be this interesting starting point that just opens conversations for actual real change in day-to-day policies and things that have actually then been really beneficial and helpful to students.
4
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And then also any of the people that work there in the college, because our statement extended beyond students.
4
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We included faculty, trustees, administrators.
4
SPEAKER_00
And what has been the result for businesses who have made an actual good faith effort and enacted real change?
4
SPEAKER_01
I have some case studies in my book and the ones I think that were committed to this deeper approach, there s been a huge upside.
4
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It s benefited everyone.
4
SPEAKER_01
The organizations where there was that level of psychological safety, innovation goes to the roof and this isn t
4
SPEAKER_01
neurodiversity specific, but like even Google, it s relevant though, they started all their teams and they discovered that the teams that performed the best were not the ones that had the most resources or what they would consider the smartest people necessary.
4
SPEAKER_01
They were the teams that had the highest level of psychological safety.
4
SPEAKER_00
Wow, that s crazy.
4
SPEAKER_01
makes sense though like if your neurodivergent especially in your natural gifts or way of thinking is coming from a different solution pathway or thinking about things differently and you re constantly being penalized for that rather than being in a culture where even if your idea is not impractical
4
SPEAKER_01
but there s still encouragement.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s like, oh, well, that s really interesting.
4
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You know, tell me more.
4
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That kind of culture, that benefits everyone.
4
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It s a place everybody would feel excited to show up every day and work versus I have some case studies in my book.
4
SPEAKER_01
There was one in particular where there was a
4
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really high-performing employee in a leadership position.
4
SPEAKER_01
And once she disclosed that she was diagnosed autistic, people started treating her differently.
4
SPEAKER_01
So like trying to put in, it s not just policies.
4
SPEAKER_01
In my book, I call it the three C s where there s codification and conduct drives culture.
4
SPEAKER_01
So
4
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You could change your policies, but if the day-to-day behaviors of how people behave is inconsistent with the values that you espouse in a value statement, that s going to negatively affect your culture.
4
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And so the alignment between those two, I think, creates the conditions where everybody can be more innovative and thrive.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s going to also be a type of environment where you re going to attract neurodivergent talent that could really help your company.
4
SPEAKER_00
I feel like the biggest stereotype that would prevent a lot of progress in this space is, on one hand, the five most valuable companies in the world are, again, the ones that are over-indexing in neurodivergence.
4
SPEAKER_00
One hand, you d have to recognize, well, whatever your thoughts are, literally the five most valuable companies in the world are, in most cases, led by someone neurodivergent, by Elon Musk s own omission.
4
SPEAKER_00
Many of these people would acknowledge this.
4
SPEAKER_00
By the way, whatever anyone s thoughts are,
4
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The fact that he went on Saturday Night Live and said, I m the first autistic person to host Saturday Night Live.
4
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I was like, fuck yeah, good for him.
4
SPEAKER_00
So on one hand, you have all this fucking proof that the most valuable companies are this, yet I think then the leap is the stereotype of like, well, yeah, that works in tech, but that s not going to work in my ad agency or my hospitality business.
4
SPEAKER_02
The skills that we think are stereotypical match up to tech, but there s so many skills that we don t know about that aren t stereotypical that are widespread.
4
SPEAKER_02
Right.
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SPEAKER_00
It s a hurdle.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
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You bring up a really interesting point.
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I think it was Adam Grant in a Stanford lecture back around 2006, where he brought up for early stage startups, many are founded by, as you
4
SPEAKER_01
You brought up neurodivergent people.
4
SPEAKER_01
But then when you get into these larger corporations, there s this tendency to, you know, let s hire people that think like me.
4
SPEAKER_00
You almost shift from building to protecting.
4
SPEAKER_00
And when you shift to protecting, now everything s got to be done as it was.
4
SPEAKER_00
It almost codifies group thing.
4
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely.
4
SPEAKER_01
And especially in the economic climate we re in front of us, that s disastrous.
4
SPEAKER_01
The big companies almost have the most to benefit from at this point to become more flexible, to hire for what I call neurodiversification rather than a culture fit.
4
SPEAKER_01
Actually, I think a lot of teams get stuck.
4
SPEAKER_01
when everybody s similar in terms of their cognitive, analytical and perceptual tendencies because there s just going to be a lot of blind spots and you won t know what you don t know.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I think the bigger companies, there s much more of a risk of that and there s more of a learning
5
SPEAKER_01
curve to figure out how to do this well and to integrate and include neurodiversity rather at being like this special track, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
But some companies have these neurodiversity at work programs where there s really separate from their culture.
5
SPEAKER_00
So not even there to challenge or bring up the different ideas.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think where there s the most value is going to be is if you can truly integrate cognitive diversity and, you know, expand the menu of ideas that are being discussed at the top levels of product conversations, of strategy conversations.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s where companies are going to be the most competitive and people that are neurodivergent could be their authentic selves and they don t have to mask.
5
SPEAKER_01
And we could get into what that means, because that s also another problem.
5
SPEAKER_01
You could get hired as a neurodivergent person and then if
5
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you re spending 50% of your time just trying to fit in rather than solving real problems, you re not going to get the most out of that person.
5
SPEAKER_01
But I do think the big companies have maybe the most to benefit if they could make this shift.
5
SPEAKER_00
That totally makes sense.
5
SPEAKER_00
Now, is it fair to say there are some occupations that aren t going to lend themselves to this?
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SPEAKER_00
Like hospitality, something that is just whoever the most social butterfly in the world was is going to be drawn to this occupation.
5
SPEAKER_00
And should it be everywhere?
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And is that realistic?
5
SPEAKER_01
First, I bring up when we talk about neurodiversity, right, is a really broad umbrella, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
So you have so many different strengths and weaknesses, and I tend to like to think of it as, hey, we re all just people.
5
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We all have strengths and weaknesses.
5
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But I d also bring up, it s a myth.
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I mean, there s a lot of autistic people that are super extroverted.
5
SPEAKER_01
So again, it goes back to these stereotypes.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I think some people, you know, will surprise you, right?
5
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Or it could be a special interest of a person with autism where they put lots of effort.
5
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So I think it s kind of case by case.
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, now I regret that question.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m kind of embarrassed I asked it.
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, no, I mean, I think it s a fair question.
5
SPEAKER_01
No, no, it s a fair question.
5
SPEAKER_01
I would hope that at some point we can live in a world where it s acceptable to have different styles of leadership.
5
SPEAKER_01
Winston Churchill supposedly had strong autistic traits, but he stepped up to the plate and maybe he wasn t the best person at small talk.
5
SPEAKER_01
I don t know.
5
SPEAKER_01
But just having that perspective of maybe there should be room for different styles of leadership and even autistic people could make great leaders.
5
SPEAKER_00
I would even say that we pay an enormous price for our overweighting of charisma.
5
SPEAKER_00
We have lots of leaders throughout time who that s about all they have.
5
SPEAKER_01
Right.
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They re not necessarily solving problems that need to be solved.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m not suggesting John Kerry was on any kind of spectrum, but I do know that people wanted him to be more a Boolean.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, this guy is so fucking qualified.
5
SPEAKER_00
What are we talking about?
5
SPEAKER_00
There s been several of those.
5
SPEAKER_00
What happened to Hillary?
5
SPEAKER_00
Like, what are you guys talking about?
5
SPEAKER_00
You don t want to have a beer with her?
5
SPEAKER_00
You re not going to have a fucking beer with her.
5
SPEAKER_00
She s going to be running the country.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_02
I mean, it s why, for the most part, there s one type of person in charge of most things.
5
SPEAKER_02
A charismatic,
5
SPEAKER_02
man, normally, you know, and that is because we have ideas about what it means to lead.
5
SPEAKER_02
And we all are a part of it.
5
SPEAKER_02
We all follow suit.
5
SPEAKER_02
We all now do look up to that type as, oh, they re going to be a strong leader.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, we just pray they also can do the job.
5
SPEAKER_02
Well, we don t seem to care that much right now, but we should.
5
SPEAKER_01
Look where we are.
5
SPEAKER_01
I was in Davos in January and big theme was all of the increasingly complex problems we have to solve.
5
SPEAKER_01
And we need people that can help solve problems.
5
SPEAKER_01
Charisma is important too, but hey, we got a lot of problems to solve.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, this has been incredible.
5
SPEAKER_00
I hope everyone checks out the Neurodiversity Edge, the essential guide to embracing autism, ADHD, dyslexia, and other neurological differences for any organization.
5
SPEAKER_00
Last question, I wonder if you ever ponder.
5
SPEAKER_00
The unemployment data says everything.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s tough.
5
SPEAKER_00
School s tough.
5
SPEAKER_00
The marketplace is tough.
5
SPEAKER_00
But oddly, it is better than it s ever been.
5
SPEAKER_00
Do you ever think about, surely 20% of the population was also neurodivergent in 1850.
5
SPEAKER_00
What was happening then?
5
SPEAKER_00
What do you think was happening?
5
SPEAKER_01
So one of the paradoxes is that throughout history, and there s no way to prove this, but a lot of our trailblazers throughout history like Benjamin Franklin, Albert Einstein, you know, there s so many examples of people that have changed the world that are thought to have had neurodivergent profiles.
5
SPEAKER_01
But if you look at it just more large scale, I m sure there s been progress.
5
SPEAKER_01
One of the interesting things was during the pandemic, we saw some of the highest employment rates ever for the disability community more broadly.
5
SPEAKER_01
So not just with neurodivergent people, but because there was a lot more options with remote work.
5
SPEAKER_01
I know a lot of ADHDers that are super hyperactive and the ability to work from home and like, you know, jump around.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, jump around, you know, their office and create an environment that works for them and whatever they need to do that actually has massively increased their productivity.
5
SPEAKER_01
And if they had to go to the office every day and they re spending so much time just fitting in and not expressing themselves and it actually deteriorates their performance.
5
SPEAKER_01
So different employers have different opinions on that.
5
SPEAKER_01
But yeah, it s an interesting question to think about.
5
SPEAKER_01
I mean, obviously throughout history has always been neurodivergent people.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I think we re making progress.
5
SPEAKER_00
Some of us tend to think of it as this modern thing, but it s not.
5
SPEAKER_00
No, it s not.
5
SPEAKER_00
Don t you think some people are under that?
5
SPEAKER_00
They ll go like, wait a minute, why is everyone autistic now?
5
SPEAKER_00
Like, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
This was nowhere 30 years ago.
5
SPEAKER_00
Now everyone is.
5
SPEAKER_00
Is it on the increase?
5
SPEAKER_00
And you re like, we re just diagnosing.
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, there s a lot of women that wouldn t have been diagnosed, say 20 years ago, where there s just a lot more awareness.
5
SPEAKER_01
The schools didn t identify kids as much.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I just think there s a lot more awareness so that there is more kids being identified too.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I think they were just called bad kids.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s like, this is just a bad kid.
5
SPEAKER_00
He s hyper, get him out of here.
5
SPEAKER_00
Send him down to that room with Dax.
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, on behalf of the 20% of parents who have a child that s neurodivergent and is probably scared about the future of their kids, on their behalf, I thank you that you ve written this book and that you re trying to make it a more inclusive place for all these kids to grow up and partake in.
5
SPEAKER_02
And for anyone who has a business, read this book because it will help you with your hiring and making it more inclusive, but not just inclusive.
5
SPEAKER_02
Your business will be better.
5
SPEAKER_02
I think we forget that.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I don t think you can ask business owners to go into philanthropy.
5
SPEAKER_00
I think you have to convince business owners that there s an enormous financial incentive for them.
5
SPEAKER_00
For sure, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
Which there is.
5
SPEAKER_01
This is an asset.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s not a trade-off.
5
SPEAKER_00
Right.
5
SPEAKER_00
All right.
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, so great meeting you, Maureen.
5
SPEAKER_00
You know the thing I have.
5
SPEAKER_00
So we have the opposite things-ish.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m writing, I m so verbal, orally, and I m writing and I get to a word that I could say all day long.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, I don t even have a guess at what the first few letters are.
5
SPEAKER_00
There s nothing there.
5
SPEAKER_00
When people go like, oh, you see things backwards?
5
SPEAKER_00
I m like, eh.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s not it.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s just, I can do something orally that when I am trying to convert that into these symbols, I can t even start sometimes.
5
SPEAKER_00
People go like, look it up.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m like, I don t even know what letter to go to in the fucking dictionary.
5
SPEAKER_00
Thank God for voice dictate.
5
SPEAKER_00
Cause it used to be, I would have to move to a different word.
5
SPEAKER_00
I d have to think of a synonym that I knew how to spell or start out a spell.
5
SPEAKER_00
And now when I m writing in the morning, I m on my phone every 25 seconds, voice dictating into Google so I can see how it s written.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that s a good hack.
5
SPEAKER_00
What a fucking incredible breakthrough for me, technologically speaking.
5
SPEAKER_01
You listen to a lot of audiobooks, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
Yes, I love audiobooks.
5
SPEAKER_01
I have an audiobook coming out, but it s not coming out till April.
5
SPEAKER_00
Do you yourself hate audiobooks?
5
SPEAKER_01
That s a good question.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you know...
5
SPEAKER_01
I do like them, but I get impatient, and I don t know if it s the sort of ADHD element, because I m used to like, okay, I want all this information.
5
SPEAKER_01
But I can, especially if it s something that s written in a way that s more literary, I can still enjoy it.
5
SPEAKER_00
And maybe the narrator s a really good performer.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, as long as they have the time, then I really do enjoy it.
5
SPEAKER_01
I do like audiobooks, but I think because the hyperlexic side of me... Yeah, you re a race car driver sitting there.
5
SPEAKER_00
I want to be like... Yeah, you re in gridlock traffic.
5
SPEAKER_01
So it has to be something that I really find enjoyable rather than just information.
5
SPEAKER_01
Right.
5
SPEAKER_02
I thought of you the other day because I was writing the word aisle.
5
SPEAKER_00
Oh, fuck that word.
5
SPEAKER_00
A-I-S-L-E.
5
SPEAKER_02
I was writing it, and even I thought, why is it spelled like this?
5
SPEAKER_02
This is a crazy way to spell that word.
5
SPEAKER_00
Might as well have an eight at the front of it.
5
SPEAKER_02
Right, and I did it, and I don t have dyslexia, but I was like, oh man, that s impossible for people who do.
5
SPEAKER_00
All right, well good luck with everything, and I hope everyone checks out The Neurodiversity Edge.
5
SPEAKER_00
Be well, and I m sure you ll write another book, and hopefully we ll talk to you then.
5
SPEAKER_01
Okay, yeah, thank you so much.
5
SPEAKER_00
Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.
5
SPEAKER_00
Stay tuned to hear Ms.
5
SPEAKER_00
Monica correct all the facts that were wrong.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s okay though, we all make mistakes.
5
SPEAKER_00
Choke, choke.
5
SPEAKER_00
Toke, toke.
5
SPEAKER_00
You ain t choking, you ain t smoking.
5
SPEAKER_00
You know that.
5
SPEAKER_00
Do you think anyone loves weed so much that they ve gotten that tattooed on their neck or something?
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Probably, right?
5
SPEAKER_02
Definitely.
5
SPEAKER_00
In fact, if you have the tattoo, if you ain t choking, you ain t smoking, say so in the comments.
5
SPEAKER_00
I guess I want to see a picture of it.
5
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
5
SPEAKER_02
I ve never heard that.
5
SPEAKER_00
That saying?
5
SPEAKER_00
I think I learned it from Ryan Hansen.
5
SPEAKER_02
Oh.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s a weed saying, because you know when you smoke pot from a doobie,
6
SPEAKER_00
You choke.
6
SPEAKER_00
You cough a lot.
6
SPEAKER_01
I know, it s like so- You ain t choking, you ain t smoking.
6
SPEAKER_01
Not sexy, sorry guys.
6
SPEAKER_01
You don t think choking s sexy?
6
SPEAKER_01
Coughing?
6
SPEAKER_01
No, it s not for me.
6
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
6
SPEAKER_01
Personally.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
I m trying to think if I ve ever seen a girl really hack him up a lung and thought, ooh la la.
6
SPEAKER_00
Oh man, I hope she gets it.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, he would like it.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Oh, give it to me.
6
SPEAKER_00
Clear throat.
6
SPEAKER_01
Oh.
6
SPEAKER_00
Oh.
6
SPEAKER_00
Sorry, that last one snapped out.
6
SPEAKER_00
Saturday was Lincoln s birthday party.
6
SPEAKER_01
It was.
6
SPEAKER_00
And to my great delight, she picked volleyball tournament for the activity.
6
SPEAKER_00
And it was looking so touch and go.
6
SPEAKER_00
It was raining all.
6
SPEAKER_01
I was worried when I woke up.
6
SPEAKER_01
I was like, oh boy, this is bad.
6
SPEAKER_01
We all were.
6
SPEAKER_00
But you know, I kept saying, the sun is gonna come out.
6
SPEAKER_00
I m watching the app.
6
SPEAKER_01
Today, not tomorrow, unconventionally.
6
SPEAKER_00
Right.
6
SPEAKER_00
The sun won t come out today.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
At first it said 11.
6
SPEAKER_00
No, I m like, honey, no problem.
6
SPEAKER_00
People aren t even getting here until 12 or 1.
6
SPEAKER_00
The grass will dry up.
6
SPEAKER_00
Then 11 became 12.
6
SPEAKER_00
12 became 1.
6
SPEAKER_00
But I kept it positive.
6
SPEAKER_00
You did.
6
SPEAKER_00
I kept looking at that radar.
6
SPEAKER_00
I was riding that radar.
6
SPEAKER_00
Because I m also coming up with a backup plan, which I did.
6
SPEAKER_01
What was it gonna be?
6
SPEAKER_00
I watched Strays in the theater room in the downstairs with all the kids.
6
SPEAKER_01
Oh my God, we have to tell that story.
6
SPEAKER_00
Which one?
6
SPEAKER_00
Oh, okay, great.
6
SPEAKER_00
What s really funny is we started watching it last night.
6
SPEAKER_01
Oh, mm-hmm.
6
SPEAKER_00
And she was like, whatever reason, now was too much.
6
SPEAKER_00
The first time, loved it.
6
SPEAKER_00
This time was a little, I don t know, anyways.
6
SPEAKER_01
Oh, that s interesting.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
I think it was because we were all together as a family.
6
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
6
SPEAKER_01
The first time in the movie theater.
6
SPEAKER_00
She was embarrassed maybe.
6
SPEAKER_00
I don t know, just maybe she was catching how sexual it was this time.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, because Strays is a Will Ferrell movie.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s a hard R movie.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, about dogs.
6
SPEAKER_01
So Kristen thought it was a movie about dogs, like a kid s movie.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so she took Lincoln- To the movie theater.
6
SPEAKER_01
Right.
6
SPEAKER_00
And she loved it.
6
SPEAKER_01
At her party, we re doing cake and stuff.
6
SPEAKER_01
And then she made an announcement that we re going to watch Strays in the movie room.
6
SPEAKER_01
There is penis eating.
6
SPEAKER_01
Oh my God, I laughed so hard.
6
SPEAKER_01
There is penis eating.
6
SPEAKER_01
There s penis eating in it.
6
SPEAKER_00
That was like a warning.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yes, but also that made me laugh so hard because it s like, it doesn t matter.
6
SPEAKER_01
Well, I shouldn t say this.
6
SPEAKER_01
I m not a child psychologist, but I kind of feel like it doesn t matter what you show them under a certain age because they don t get it.
6
SPEAKER_00
That s pretty much my opinion.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
That s what s interesting is I think between seeing it at the movie theater and then seeing it again last night at home, I think she has matured enough that some of the stuff was registering a way that was, she was like, I don t think I like it.
6
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
6
SPEAKER_00
But you re right, a lot of it s just blowing over their head.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like they think sucking dicks means eating people s penises.
6
SPEAKER_00
Well no, this specifically, have you seen Strays?
6
SPEAKER_00
No.
6
SPEAKER_00
He bites his dick off the dog.
6
SPEAKER_00
So it is literal penis eating.
6
SPEAKER_00
Oh man.
6
SPEAKER_00
And also penis is just a body part, like a hand.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s not a sexual item.
6
SPEAKER_01
I thought that s what she was interpreting as penis eating, and I thought that was so cute.
6
SPEAKER_00
The movie starts with a montage, and Will s super happy dog voice, and his owner s Will Forte, who s a total piece of shit, right?
6
SPEAKER_00
He s a fucking, he s unemployed, and he smokes weed all day.
6
SPEAKER_00
And then Will Ferrell s like, I forget,
6
SPEAKER_00
his owner s name, but like, let s say it s Chad.
6
SPEAKER_00
Chad s the greatest.
6
SPEAKER_00
I love Chad.
6
SPEAKER_00
Chad s favorite toy is his penis.
6
SPEAKER_00
He plays with it all day long.
6
SPEAKER_00
And like, it just shows this dog watching Will, looking at a computer.
6
SPEAKER_01
Oh my God.
6
SPEAKER_00
Playing with his penis.
6
SPEAKER_00
And then he thinks it s his toy.
6
SPEAKER_00
Oh.
6
SPEAKER_00
And so at some point, the dogs bite that,
6
SPEAKER_00
They go like eat his toy.
6
SPEAKER_01
I see.
6
SPEAKER_00
Anyways, I also might be misremembering the ending, but it doesn t matter.
6
SPEAKER_01
Whatever.
6
SPEAKER_01
I just thought that was interesting.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
So anyways, volleyball was great.
6
SPEAKER_00
Now I don t want to say you got close to playing, but I feel like you got closer.
6
SPEAKER_00
You re certainly sitting next.
6
SPEAKER_00
You got physically closer in proximity to the court.
6
SPEAKER_01
I did.
6
SPEAKER_00
Did it look any more fun this time?
6
SPEAKER_00
Or less fun?
6
SPEAKER_01
There was an incident.
6
SPEAKER_00
Oh my God, there was an incredible incident.
6
SPEAKER_00
Poor, sweet Hannah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Poor, sweet Hannah.
6
SPEAKER_01
Someone got blasted.
6
SPEAKER_00
Clobbered, clobbered.
6
SPEAKER_00
Well, what was happening in a nutshell was we were down, Charlie and I were on the same team, and we were down like, I wanna say 11 to three.
6
SPEAKER_00
It was almost like we re done.
6
SPEAKER_00
And then fucking Charlie started serving just bullets, one after another, right over the, just skimming the top of the net.
6
SPEAKER_00
He aced them like six or seven times.
6
SPEAKER_00
This has not happened in our backyard volleyball.
6
SPEAKER_00
No one has served eight consecutive points in a row.
6
SPEAKER_00
And so they were just getting more and more frustrated.
6
SPEAKER_00
And Matt, who s a really good volleyball player,
6
SPEAKER_00
They re like, we re going to have to block it right at the net.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s the only way we re ever going to defeat this.
6
SPEAKER_00
So Charlie hit it as hard as he could.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s screaming over the net at God knows how fast Matt comes up as fast as he can and immediately blocks it with both hands, which redirects the ball at full speed directly down onto Hannah s nose.
6
SPEAKER_00
So it was like a ricochet full speed serve speed and poor Hannah got blasted right in the face.
6
SPEAKER_00
There was no blood.
6
SPEAKER_01
And at first her eye was stuck.
6
SPEAKER_01
She said her eye was stuck sideways.
6
SPEAKER_00
Well, I can t believe you had to bring that part up because there was six.
6
SPEAKER_01
Well, you asked me an important question and it s a part of my answer.
6
SPEAKER_00
I guess it is.
6
SPEAKER_01
The four of us were sitting there and we were, all four of us said, I m so glad we re not playing.
6
SPEAKER_00
Oh, okay.
6
SPEAKER_00
Well, that s fair.
6
SPEAKER_00
I m going to take that positive.
6
SPEAKER_01
I don t want to get hurt on a Saturday at 36.
6
SPEAKER_01
I just don t.
6
SPEAKER_00
That s fine.
6
SPEAKER_00
At any rate, it was so fun.
6
SPEAKER_00
Such a fun day.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I had really, this time I put in the work beforehand.
6
SPEAKER_00
Now this is going to go against what I had brought up earlier about Lane Norton s post about the pain and the stretching and the injuries and all that.
6
SPEAKER_00
So my workout that morning before volleyball was a very bizarre workout.
6
SPEAKER_00
I did like 140 jumping jacks.
6
SPEAKER_00
I did four rounds of stretching my back with my legs crossed, and that takes, you know, whatever, very comprehensive, very lightweight shoulder works to get the shoulders warm.
6
SPEAKER_01
Were you doing this for volleyball?
6
SPEAKER_00
Specifically, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
I wanted to get, because what I read in that thing also was like, stretching, blah, blah, now a warmup does prevent.
6
SPEAKER_00
Or there s some data to suggest.
6
SPEAKER_00
So I really tried to warm my body up in all the ways I was going to be using it, mostly throwing my arms over my head nonstop.
6
SPEAKER_00
And it was highly effective.
6
SPEAKER_00
I was a little sore yesterday, but not anything like I was on my birthday where I was like disabled for a couple of days.
6
SPEAKER_01
That s good.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
You did fall down.
6
SPEAKER_01
I missed it.
6
SPEAKER_00
Oh, a hundred times.
6
SPEAKER_00
Oh.
6
SPEAKER_00
Because the grass got wet.
6
SPEAKER_01
I know.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I slid many, many times.
6
SPEAKER_01
I was noticing a lot of falls.
6
SPEAKER_00
Uh-huh.
6
SPEAKER_00
Oh, so fun.
6
SPEAKER_01
You, okay, I can t tell you what s fun to you.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, did you hear me laughing so hard?
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, but I also, I did, I did see you in pain.
6
SPEAKER_01
I did.
6
SPEAKER_00
When?
6
SPEAKER_01
You weren t like, help.
6
SPEAKER_01
You were trying to keep it quiet, but you were hurt for like some minutes.
6
SPEAKER_01
I saw it and I was like, I have to look away.
6
SPEAKER_00
I was, I had,
6
SPEAKER_00
an incredibly great time from the second it started till it ended.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I had a couple of huge slides where I hyperextended my knee.
6
SPEAKER_01
That s what I m talking about.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, but that just made me laugh.
6
SPEAKER_01
Okay, then great.
6
SPEAKER_01
So this is for Maureen.
6
SPEAKER_01
Maureen talks about the phonological loop, phonological loop.
6
SPEAKER_01
I don t remember exactly how she pronounced it, but it s a part of memory according to
6
SPEAKER_01
Badly s model of working memory, model of human memory, in an attempt to present a more accurate model of primary memory, often referred to as short-term memory.
6
SPEAKER_01
Working memory splits primary memory into multiple components rather than considering it to be a single unified construct.
6
SPEAKER_01
The working memory model is a central executive, is the top, then it s broken down into phonological loop, episodic buffer, and visuospatial scratch pad.
6
SPEAKER_01
Then off of the phonological loop is the articulatory loop and the acoustic store.
6
SPEAKER_01
Okay, now I m going to read about the phonological loop component.
6
SPEAKER_01
Phonological loop or articulatory loop as a whole deals with sound or phonological information.
6
SPEAKER_01
Am I saying it right?
6
SPEAKER_00
Phonological?
6
SPEAKER_00
It feels like it d be phonological.
6
SPEAKER_00
But maybe it s phonological.
6
SPEAKER_01
I don t know.
6
SPEAKER_01
I think it s a phonogram.
6
SPEAKER_00
Phonograph.
6
SPEAKER_00
Phonograph, phonogram.
6
SPEAKER_00
Photogenic.
6
SPEAKER_00
But you say phonetic, not phonetic.
6
SPEAKER_00
That s what makes me think it s phonetical.
6
SPEAKER_01
You say fanatic.
6
SPEAKER_00
Fanatic.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_00
Not phonetic.
7
SPEAKER_02
So you think it s phonological?
7
SPEAKER_00
I do, because of phonetics.
7
SPEAKER_00
Because that s the same word, right?
7
SPEAKER_02
It is, yeah, phonetic.
7
SPEAKER_02
But is that one of those things where we re just saying it so fast that it s become phonetic?
7
SPEAKER_01
Phonogram pronunciation?
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_02
Phonogram.
7
SPEAKER_02
Phone.
7
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
7
SPEAKER_00
Phonogram.
7
SPEAKER_00
How about phonographic?
7
SPEAKER_02
Why don t you do phonological?
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, do phonological.
7
SPEAKER_00
Why are we tiptoeing around it?
7
SPEAKER_02
Phonological.
7
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
7
SPEAKER_00
What did she say?
7
SPEAKER_01
Phonological.
7
SPEAKER_00
She did.
7
SPEAKER_01
Phonological.
7
SPEAKER_00
Oh, sorry.
7
SPEAKER_01
Phonological.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_00
Phonological.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s phonetically spelled.
7
SPEAKER_01
F-A-A-N-U-H-L-A-A.
7
SPEAKER_02
But she s saying phonological.
7
SPEAKER_00
You can t trust these robots.
7
SPEAKER_00
They all have weird accents.
7
SPEAKER_02
Is this like the blue dress?
7
SPEAKER_00
Oh, baby.
7
SPEAKER_02
Whatever.
7
SPEAKER_02
I m going to say phonological.
7
SPEAKER_02
We don t know.
7
SPEAKER_02
Standby.
7
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
7
SPEAKER_02
It consists of two parts, a short-term phonological store with auditory memory traces that are subject to rapid decay and an articulatory rehearsal component, sometimes called the articulatory loop, that can revive the memory traces.
7
SPEAKER_02
The phonological loop may play a key role in the acquisition of vocabulary, particularly in the early childhood years.
7
SPEAKER_02
It also may be vital for learning a second language.
7
SPEAKER_02
The phonological store acts as an inner ear, remembering speech sounds in their temporal order, whilst the articulatory process acts as an inner voice and repeats the series of words or other speech elements on a loop to prevent them from decaying.
7
SPEAKER_02
It s still confusing.
7
SPEAKER_02
Okay, what is a real-life example of a phonological loop?
7
SPEAKER_02
An interpreter translates phonological information from one language into another.
7
SPEAKER_02
A person repeats an eight-digit confirmation code so that they can write it down for later.
7
SPEAKER_02
Children repeat a series of words spoken to them during a phonics lesson.
7
SPEAKER_00
It just means auditory instead of visual, right?
7
SPEAKER_02
No, but it s part of the way the memory is stored.
7
SPEAKER_00
Right, but I m only thinking that where you hear in the information that is processed in the area of your brain auditorily is different than it is visually.
7
SPEAKER_00
Like you have a visual cortex, right?
7
SPEAKER_00
So those things are in different places in your brain, what you re hearing versus what you re reading.
7
SPEAKER_00
This is unrelated, but related.
7
SPEAKER_00
Can I tell you the thing that was a lot of listening to last night as I went to bed?
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_00
In the brief history of intelligence that I found.
7
SPEAKER_00
Obvious, but also like, oh yeah, that s makes sense.
7
SPEAKER_00
So in the motor control center of our brain, like if you look at our motor control area versus other mammals.
7
SPEAKER_02
Uh huh.
7
SPEAKER_00
Ours is really quite big, and then it s quite enormous for one specific skill.
7
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t take a lot of memory to move your legs.
7
SPEAKER_00
They only kind of function, there s like, you know, there s very, but primates, because we have these poseable thumbs and these really, really precise fingers,
7
SPEAKER_00
Our ability to move these 10 digits in such specific ways in a katrillion different permutations takes up the bulk of our motor control center.
7
SPEAKER_00
And that s why it s enormous for us because we have
7
SPEAKER_00
these hands that require so much information to move them precisely the way we want to, whereas your feet, there s almost nothing dedicated to your feet.
7
SPEAKER_02
Really?
7
SPEAKER_00
Because there s nothing to really move down there.
7
SPEAKER_00
There s no precision done.
7
SPEAKER_00
To walk, for them to perform the function they re designed to takes the very tiniest part of your brain, but these hands are taking up a ton.
7
SPEAKER_02
Wow.
7
SPEAKER_00
Which makes a lot of sense, but I thought, I wouldn t have thought of that.
7
SPEAKER_02
I guess they do a lot, they do the most work.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, if you think about how you can spin your wrists and all your fingers and the way you can move it versus move your arm up and down.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it s true.
7
SPEAKER_00
It only pivots in one spot.
7
SPEAKER_00
It only articulates one way.
7
SPEAKER_00
But these masterful things that have allowed us to become this.
7
SPEAKER_02
That s interesting.
7
SPEAKER_00
Earth-changing species, it s all because of these little hands.
7
SPEAKER_00
And then our mouths are a big chunk of it.
7
SPEAKER_00
Oh.
7
SPEAKER_00
Like how we can move our lips and our tongue.
7
SPEAKER_00
Well, yeah.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, how precise all that is to make all these sounds.
7
SPEAKER_02
We re the only ones that can talk with this kind of language.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, with this level of, yeah, yeah.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I mean, if your tongue is too small.
7
SPEAKER_02
Think of the.
7
SPEAKER_02
Oh, gosh, very much.
7
SPEAKER_00
Like you can only move your knee one way.
7
SPEAKER_02
I know.
7
SPEAKER_00
But that tongue, boy, just do it in your mouth right now.
7
SPEAKER_00
Sky s the limit.
7
SPEAKER_00
I know.
7
SPEAKER_00
Any shape you want.
7
SPEAKER_02
Well, I can t.
7
SPEAKER_02
Can you do the twisty?
7
SPEAKER_00
That?
7
SPEAKER_02
No, the one where, some people can twist it all the way upside down.
7
SPEAKER_01
I can fold mine.
7
SPEAKER_00
Mm-hmm, tongue roll.
7
SPEAKER_02
That?
7
SPEAKER_01
You can do like the clover, some people can do.
7
SPEAKER_02
Oh, I can t do the clover, but I can do that.
7
SPEAKER_00
Well, that s nice.
7
SPEAKER_00
Monica folded her tongue in half.
7
SPEAKER_02
I made a section.
7
SPEAKER_00
Okay, good.
7
SPEAKER_00
You can roll.
7
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
7
SPEAKER_00
I was getting nervous you couldn t because you weren t producing that quickly.
7
SPEAKER_02
I can t see what Rob did.
7
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I can t do the clover.
7
SPEAKER_00
Can you?
7
SPEAKER_00
No.
7
SPEAKER_02
None of us can.
7
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
7
SPEAKER_02
It s close.
7
SPEAKER_00
Maybe I can.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you re getting there.
7
SPEAKER_00
Clover adjacent.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s an unlucky clover.
7
SPEAKER_02
Oh no.
7
SPEAKER_02
Oh no, don t do that.
7
SPEAKER_02
Oh, on an episode of nobody s, well, they did a, they did a live stream on nobody s listening right for their patrons.
7
SPEAKER_02
And one, a question, one of the patrons asked them was if you could have five liquids come out of each, like if you could have a liquid come out of each finger,
7
SPEAKER_00
What a great question.
7
SPEAKER_02
Isn t that a good question?
7
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
7
SPEAKER_02
What would it be?
7
SPEAKER_02
What would yours be?
7
SPEAKER_00
You know two of them right away.
7
SPEAKER_02
Diet Coke.
7
SPEAKER_00
And coffee.
7
SPEAKER_02
Coffee, okay, you would.
7
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
7
SPEAKER_02
Even though that s risky for you.
7
SPEAKER_00
Well, I mean, why have a fluid come out that I don t want?
7
SPEAKER_02
Well, no, but I mean, like, then you won t stop yourself.
7
SPEAKER_00
Wait till you heard my third fingers.
7
SPEAKER_00
Cocaine.
7
SPEAKER_00
I m teasing Monica.
7
SPEAKER_00
Fourth one s Jack Daniels.
7
SPEAKER_00
I thought you were gonna say, yeah, I thought that s what you were gonna say.
7
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
7
SPEAKER_00
I would want the coffee to come out of my thumb, because I don t want to suck my thumb in the morning like a little baby.
7
SPEAKER_00
I wonder how you would know how much you ve had, though.
7
SPEAKER_00
That s tricky.
7
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
7
SPEAKER_00
This is a curse and a blessing.
7
SPEAKER_02
There s a bunch of, what s it called?
7
SPEAKER_02
What am I trying to say?
7
SPEAKER_02
There are things that stop you from drinking a lot of coffee, which is the hassle of getting up and making it.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, speed bumps.
7
SPEAKER_02
Exactly.
7
SPEAKER_00
Barriers.
7
SPEAKER_02
This wouldn t have it.
7
SPEAKER_00
Hurdles.
7
SPEAKER_00
Wordle.
7
SPEAKER_00
I just changed it.
7
SPEAKER_00
My coffee would come out of my index finger instead of my thumb, because I think a lot of people would want coffee.
7
SPEAKER_00
And it d be so much easier to pour in a glass with my index finger than have to go like thumbs down, twist everything back to my motor control center.
7
SPEAKER_02
I thought you were being selfless because you would have been sucking your thumb and then if you give it to others, your spit gets in there.
7
SPEAKER_00
I m gonna suck that first index finger, obviously.
7
SPEAKER_02
Oh, you re not gonna pour in a cup?
7
SPEAKER_00
Why would I when I can just pull my hand up to my- I guess you re right.
7
SPEAKER_01
Would you drink coffee that came out of someone else s finger?
7
SPEAKER_00
Eric would.
7
SPEAKER_00
And Aaron would.
7
SPEAKER_02
Okay, what are the others?
7
SPEAKER_02
So you have Diet Coke, you have coffee.
7
SPEAKER_00
Water.
7
SPEAKER_02
You do water, yeah.
7
SPEAKER_00
Well, everyone should.
7
SPEAKER_00
What if you re in the desert?
7
SPEAKER_02
I know.
7
SPEAKER_02
I know.
7
SPEAKER_02
I know.
7
SPEAKER_00
Okay, wow, those are my three bevies that I love.
7
SPEAKER_00
I ll have a protein shake.
7
SPEAKER_00
Shake?
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, protein shake.
7
SPEAKER_02
Okay, we can count that.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I would never need anything again, because I would have nutrition and calories.
7
SPEAKER_02
Oh, you re doing like a survivalist.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, like I could literally go out into the desert for as long as I fucking wanted with nothing, not even a backpack full of food.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_00
It was a great question.
7
SPEAKER_00
Whoever asked this is a genius.
7
SPEAKER_02
I agree, it was Bill.
7
SPEAKER_00
It was Bill.
7
SPEAKER_00
Gates.
7
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I thought you meant Cosby.
7
SPEAKER_02
Okay, I would pick.
7
SPEAKER_00
I have my fifth.
7
SPEAKER_02
Oh, you do?
7
SPEAKER_02
Okay, what?
7
SPEAKER_00
Can it be air?
7
SPEAKER_02
Air?
7
SPEAKER_00
Oxygen.
7
SPEAKER_02
No, it s a liquid.
7
SPEAKER_00
Then I can go underwater.
7
SPEAKER_00
No.
7
SPEAKER_00
I could swim across the Atlantic.
7
SPEAKER_02
I would like that.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_02
But no, it s liquid only.
7
SPEAKER_01
Pick like oil so you can sell it.
7
SPEAKER_02
Actually, no, Rob, that s most people, apparently most people, that s, you mean liquid gold?
7
SPEAKER_00
Liquid gold, it smells hot.
7
SPEAKER_02
No, listen.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s in the water state.
7
SPEAKER_02
That s what most people pick, gasoline.
7
SPEAKER_00
Gasoline, oh, to fill their car.
7
SPEAKER_00
Well, that shows how spoiled I am.
7
SPEAKER_00
If you would ve asked me that in 2002, I d be like, fuck, man, unleaded gas for sure.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s killing me.
7
SPEAKER_00
And then maybe milk.
7
SPEAKER_02
Milk.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, because that was killing me too.
7
SPEAKER_02
Well, you might want milk with your coffee.
7
SPEAKER_00
I like to drink it black.
7
SPEAKER_02
But I don t, so like if you re serving others.
7
SPEAKER_00
Right.
7
SPEAKER_02
Oh, okay, now I know mine.
7
SPEAKER_02
Okay, here we go.
7
SPEAKER_00
Tea, wine, water, tea, wine.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, water, English breakfast tea, milk for my tea.
7
SPEAKER_00
Hold on a second.
7
SPEAKER_00
I just thought of something.
7
SPEAKER_00
What?
7
SPEAKER_00
You re probably gonna have to dedicate a couple or three of your fingers to wine because you like different flavors at different times.
7
SPEAKER_01
You have to go into English breakfast tea specifically?
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, you have to go specific.
7
SPEAKER_00
Then you re, what wine?
7
SPEAKER_02
I don t, I wouldn t pick wine.
7
SPEAKER_00
Oh wow, you re gonna regret that.
7
SPEAKER_02
I know, actually I am gonna pick it.
7
SPEAKER_02
Damn it.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yes, of course, you re not being honest.
8
SPEAKER_01
I am, I was being honest.
8
SPEAKER_01
I was trying to do the hurdle thing.
8
SPEAKER_00
Like it s better if I- Can t suck your pinky and have a Chardonnay?
8
SPEAKER_01
Actually, I hate Chardonnay.
8
SPEAKER_01
Actually, I bet that would, I bet I would stop drinking.
8
SPEAKER_00
Really?
8
SPEAKER_00
I kind of feel like it- Well, because you d have to.
8
SPEAKER_01
No, it s just like, it s anytime- It comes out of my body, it s like, oh.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I like the event of it.
8
SPEAKER_00
Do you think anyone s so dumb that they picked urine?
8
SPEAKER_01
And he picked it.
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh my God.
8
SPEAKER_01
Well, he thought that would be a fun trick to like throw pee on people.
8
SPEAKER_00
Well, what is interesting about that is it d be nicer to be able to step up to a sink and just put your finger in the sink.
8
SPEAKER_00
As long as it was actually draining your bladder.
8
SPEAKER_01
That s a good pick.
8
SPEAKER_01
He said it d be so easy.
8
SPEAKER_00
That s really smart.
8
SPEAKER_01
I m not picking that.
8
SPEAKER_01
Elizabeth made a good point.
8
SPEAKER_01
I don t want my pee near my water and stuff.
8
SPEAKER_00
Well, just keep them on opposite sides.
8
SPEAKER_00
It would drip.
8
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so for you, it was water, English breakfast tea, and milk so far.
8
SPEAKER_00
I worry about milk getting like crusty at the end of your fingers.
8
SPEAKER_01
No, it doesn t.
8
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t.
8
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t on nipples, so why would it on fingers?
8
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
8
SPEAKER_01
Oh my God, should I do breast milk for the world?
8
SPEAKER_01
For people who can t.
8
SPEAKER_00
Like a wet nurse for the world?
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and some babies can t suckle.
8
SPEAKER_00
Ina, so what are you gonna sit in a chair in front of your house and just have them bring children by and slurp on your ring finger?
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that s a good charity.
8
SPEAKER_00
Okay, you ll have to eat a lot, because it takes a lot of calories.
8
SPEAKER_00
Can t you produce milk if you just like keep, once you have a baby, if you just keep.
8
SPEAKER_00
That s how wet nurses.
8
SPEAKER_01
But some people, they have a limited supply.
8
SPEAKER_01
So that s only if you have a really good supply.
8
SPEAKER_01
Wow, I m using two for milk.
8
SPEAKER_01
I did not anticipate this.
8
SPEAKER_00
You re sticking with that.
8
SPEAKER_00
I m not doing that.
8
SPEAKER_00
No, no, no, no, no, no.
8
SPEAKER_00
I didn t think so.
8
SPEAKER_01
But no, but the problem is I really don t like English breakfast tea without milk.
8
SPEAKER_01
So it doesn t make sense.
8
SPEAKER_00
So you gotta have both.
8
SPEAKER_00
What s cool is you could put, like if you did your index and your middle finger, you just put both fingers in your teacup.
8
SPEAKER_01
Exactly, but I only need a little milk, so I d have to.
8
SPEAKER_00
Well, you d be able to control it.
8
SPEAKER_01
I d have to like do it really like,
8
SPEAKER_00
No, just making your finger shake doesn t make it come out.
8
SPEAKER_00
You have control over that.
8
SPEAKER_00
Can t you just do an English breakfast with milk out of one finger?
8
SPEAKER_00
Because if he s doing a protein shake, it s got multiple things in it.
8
SPEAKER_00
How dare you, Rob?
8
SPEAKER_01
That s kind of true.
8
SPEAKER_01
But it only has one liquid.
8
SPEAKER_01
You can count milkshakes.
8
SPEAKER_00
Well, fine, a muscle milk.
8
SPEAKER_01
That s better.
8
SPEAKER_01
And then I can t cheat.
8
SPEAKER_01
So English breakfast tea, whole milk, breast milk.
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh my God.
8
SPEAKER_00
You got to get rid of breast milk.
8
SPEAKER_00
No one s going to want to bring their baby to you to suck your finger.
8
SPEAKER_01
Oh, that s what you think.
8
SPEAKER_01
You talk about privilege.
8
SPEAKER_01
Your kids were great at drinking milk out, out the tit.
8
SPEAKER_00
I m sure Los Feliz is crawling with children who have no access to me.
8
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I don t know if I ll be able to, so it s good for me preventative.
8
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
8
SPEAKER_00
All right, so breast milk.
8
SPEAKER_01
Also it s liquid gold, like you can put it on your cuts.
8
SPEAKER_00
Well that s true, it has the colostrum in it, it s really important.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I mean I guess whole milk is breast milk.
8
SPEAKER_00
Just rebrand it, don t call it breast milk, but that s what it is.
8
SPEAKER_00
It is called super milk.
8
SPEAKER_01
Liquid gold, liquid gold.
8
SPEAKER_00
What s your fifth?
8
SPEAKER_01
Okay fine, I ll do a cab I guess.
8
SPEAKER_00
Okay, a cab.
8
SPEAKER_00
Twist my arm.
8
SPEAKER_00
I also like martinis.
8
SPEAKER_00
Do you think you d ever wake up in the morning and like, you d be like, oh, how do I feel?
8
SPEAKER_00
And you d look down at your sheets and just fucking, there was an enormous puddle of all those liquids that ruined your mattress.
8
SPEAKER_00
Like a wet tray.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
8
SPEAKER_01
Oh, but it would also be like, you d be dehydrated.
8
SPEAKER_01
Can you imagine?
8
SPEAKER_00
I know, there s a lot of questions, like do you have to drink gallons and gallons of water to?
8
SPEAKER_01
No, no, that s the whole point of it.
8
SPEAKER_00
Is this coming from a mystery place?
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, or like HGH?
8
SPEAKER_01
That s not a liquid.
8
SPEAKER_01
Human growth hormone?
8
SPEAKER_00
Or adrenaline?
8
SPEAKER_01
What am I thinking?
8
SPEAKER_01
I d obviously do electrolytes, but element is a powder, so this gets complex.
8
SPEAKER_01
Anyway, all right.
8
SPEAKER_00
That s a great one.
8
SPEAKER_01
Thank you.
8
SPEAKER_00
What a good question that person asked.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
I wish we had asked Bill Gates, be clear, that.
8
SPEAKER_01
What he would pick.
8
SPEAKER_01
He would obviously pick Diet Coke.
8
SPEAKER_00
Coffee.
8
SPEAKER_01
India water.
8
SPEAKER_00
Fresh India water out of the well.
8
SPEAKER_00
The chai tea.
8
SPEAKER_01
Chai tea maybe, yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
I think he drank orange juice.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, well he would drink anything.
8
SPEAKER_01
He drank anything.
8
SPEAKER_00
He drank anything.
8
SPEAKER_01
The only thing he wants to drink is Diet Coke.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
And a lot of, not a lot, several people in the comments asked, how many Diet Cokes did you guys drink combined in that week?
8
SPEAKER_00
And I said in excess of 100, and I stand by that.
8
SPEAKER_01
God, you drank a lot.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I think he and I both were doing at least eight, nine a day.
8
SPEAKER_01
I don t know about him.
8
SPEAKER_01
I saw you drink more than him.
8
SPEAKER_00
He magically had like, he had Diet Cokes in all these meetings.
8
SPEAKER_00
I m like, where d that come from?
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh, he did.
8
SPEAKER_00
I wanted a Diet Coke.
8
SPEAKER_01
You normally did.
8
SPEAKER_00
He has a team, of course.
8
SPEAKER_00
But I was like swiping them out of cars and stuff.
8
SPEAKER_00
I was like a little scavenger.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you were.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
Okay, I think that s probably right.
8
SPEAKER_01
Okay, anyway, there s still some more.
8
SPEAKER_01
People who become Rhodes Scholars after community college.
8
SPEAKER_01
There was a guy sort of recently-ish, his name, shout out, is Hazim Hardiman.
8
SPEAKER_01
And this was in 2017.
8
SPEAKER_01
He was the first graduate from Community College of Philadelphia to become a Rhodes Scholar.
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh, wow.
8
SPEAKER_00
At the risk of perpetuating this stereotype that people with autism have like superpowers, are you watching Love on the Spectrum yet?
8
SPEAKER_00
No.
8
SPEAKER_00
Have you checked it out yet, Rob?
8
SPEAKER_00
No, I have not.
8
SPEAKER_00
We watch it with the kids, it s so, it s everything Bradley said it was.
8
SPEAKER_00
It s so heartwarming.
8
SPEAKER_00
But there s this boy, oh my God, of course I wanted you, I wanted you so bad to see this episode.
8
SPEAKER_00
It s an Indian boy in Long Beach.
8
SPEAKER_00
Well, he s not a boy, he s like, is he?
8
SPEAKER_00
Might be 32.
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh.
8
SPEAKER_00
And he s with his mom and his dad and his sister and they re from India.
8
SPEAKER_00
He s first generation, but they re not.
8
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
8
SPEAKER_00
So the mom does most of the speaking, like it s his birthday and she does all the speaking.
8
SPEAKER_00
And she s like, you know, and I hope you meet a girl.
8
SPEAKER_00
And he goes, not an Indian girl.
8
SPEAKER_00
I don t want an Indian girl.
8
SPEAKER_00
I was like, oh my God, this is Monica.
8
SPEAKER_00
His mom was like, okay, well, that s not a nice thing to say.
8
SPEAKER_00
And so she kind of keeps going.
8
SPEAKER_00
And then he s like, how long are you going to talk?
8
SPEAKER_00
But they were asking him questions like,
8
SPEAKER_01
he needs to go travel to India so he can heal himself.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yes, it s just really, it s just what we talk about, like there s no, for this particular individual with autism, which doesn t mean anything about any other, whatever he deems is the truth and honest, there s like, there s just no hesitation to, there s no consideration that, like if he just says, I don t want an Indian girlfriend, if that crosses his mind, he just says it.
8
SPEAKER_00
But they were asking him,
8
SPEAKER_00
What day was March 12, 1998?
8
SPEAKER_00
And this fast, he goes, that was Tuesday.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I ve heard of this.
8
SPEAKER_00
And then they said, what do you want to do on your date?
8
SPEAKER_00
And he said, talk about math.
8
SPEAKER_00
And then they said, what s 126 times 92?
8
SPEAKER_00
And the second they finish asking, he just says the answer.
8
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
8
SPEAKER_00
That s so cool.
8
SPEAKER_00
The reason I bring that up is I was thinking, that is the most abstract ability for you and I to imagine having.
8
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
8
SPEAKER_00
It s not even reachable.
8
SPEAKER_00
I can t even fathom it.
8
SPEAKER_00
It s intangible.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I was thinking, and then this skill set I have is equally as abstract.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that s right.
8
SPEAKER_01
Every skill in a vacuum is abstract.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s just how prevalent is the skill?
8
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
8
SPEAKER_00
And so my follow-up to that was like, once I connected those two things, like, wow, that s something I can t really grasp.
8
SPEAKER_00
But I don t feel bad because of it.
8
SPEAKER_00
No one should pity me because I can t tell you what day of the month March 12th was, 1998.
8
SPEAKER_00
It helped me go like, yeah, yeah, you shan t pity these people, nor assume that they really give a flying fuck if they don t have that skill.
8
SPEAKER_00
Because I don t have that skill, and I m just fine not having that skill.
8
SPEAKER_01
Right.
8
SPEAKER_01
Again, the difference, though, is you aren t expected to.
8
SPEAKER_00
Right, not having that skill doesn t prevent me from holding employment or finding a partner, for sure.
8
SPEAKER_01
Society isn t looking at you in a way because you don t have it.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yes, but at the same time, it helped me, I think, understand that they re not going like, wait, so you guys look each other, you stare each other in the eyes all the time and you re comfortable doing that?
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I don t really care that I can t do that.
8
SPEAKER_00
It helped me
8
SPEAKER_00
to that place where it s like, yeah, they re not coveting the thing I can do per se.
8
SPEAKER_00
They might be coveting a job or coveting a relationship, but the actual thing that they don t have, it s not driving them mad that they don t have that.
8
SPEAKER_00
Just like it s not driving me nuts, I can t do 129 times.
8
SPEAKER_00
It d be a cool thing to be able to do, but my reality is my reality.
8
SPEAKER_00
The things that aren t in
9
SPEAKER_01
in my reality aren t giving me discomfort.
9
SPEAKER_00
But the discomfort comes from society.
9
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t come from a personal.
9
SPEAKER_00
Right, but I m just being specific.
9
SPEAKER_01
The discomfort of not having a job is not having a job.
9
SPEAKER_00
They might not even really care about not having a job.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s the fact that you need a job in this world.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yes, but those things are different.
9
SPEAKER_01
Those are outcomes.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
So yes, I can see they might want a job or want a partner.
9
SPEAKER_01
But the skill, if you don t have it, you don t really care.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I agree.
9
SPEAKER_00
I wouldn t care personally if I couldn t look someone in the eye.
9
SPEAKER_00
I only care because other people take that as a sign something is off with me.
9
SPEAKER_00
Again, I m agreeing with you.
9
SPEAKER_00
The skill itself means nothing.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s just what we ve decided is norm.
9
SPEAKER_01
I m on a stop pitying campaign, can you feel it?
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
I think it s good.
9
SPEAKER_00
Pity is different than compassion, though.
9
SPEAKER_01
It is.
9
SPEAKER_01
It is.
9
SPEAKER_01
Because there s an implied superiority to pity.
9
SPEAKER_01
I agree.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
I think it s on my mind because I m in a position where I have young children, and I m trying to delineate the difference between these things.
9
SPEAKER_00
I agree.
9
SPEAKER_01
When you feel pity for somebody, that means you think you re superior to
9
SPEAKER_00
Or your position is better.
9
SPEAKER_00
Enviable.
9
SPEAKER_00
But sometimes it is better.
9
SPEAKER_00
Think both things, or again, no, I m with you.
9
SPEAKER_00
I think pity is bad, but I think compassion is very good.
9
SPEAKER_00
And understanding the places in life where you ve been given a leg up is good.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, like I think watching this show and understanding the complexity of how they process the world and compassion for me is like, great.
9
SPEAKER_01
So when I am interacting with someone like this, I have to have a different level of tolerance and patience.
9
SPEAKER_01
And I m happy to do that because I recognize what they re going through.
9
SPEAKER_01
You re like empathic, but I don t need to go like,
9
SPEAKER_00
I agree, oh yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
That s the part people should police themselves against.
9
SPEAKER_00
I agree, totally, yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
Okay, 40% of millionaires are dyslexic, she said.
9
SPEAKER_00
She thinks that s the figure.
9
SPEAKER_00
There s multiple figures.
9
SPEAKER_00
A study by Richard Branson s group found that 35% of successful entrepreneurs in the United States have dyslexia.
9
SPEAKER_00
There s another one, 60% of self-made millionaires are dyslexic.
9
SPEAKER_00
There s another one that says 40%.
9
SPEAKER_01
What would be probably fair to say is they re over-indexing.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, there s a good percentage.
9
SPEAKER_00
Oh, this one s a 60%.
9
SPEAKER_01
Like a multiple of what they represent in the general population.
9
SPEAKER_00
Mm-hmm.
9
SPEAKER_00
Well, I don t know how many are dyslexic.
9
SPEAKER_00
Do you wanna look up percentage of dyslexic people?
9
SPEAKER_00
Dyslexic.
9
SPEAKER_01
In the world?
9
SPEAKER_01
What if he thought it was we wanted to hear it pronounced?
9
20%.
9
SPEAKER_01
Oh, that s high.
9
SPEAKER_00
Of America or world?
9
SPEAKER_01
In the United States.
9
SPEAKER_00
Well, that s all for Maureen.
9
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
9
SPEAKER_01
Well, that was great.
9
SPEAKER_01
And it s funny how much that, um, we had done that interview prior to a couple other interviews where it came up a lot and I felt far more informed.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
You too.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
I definitely think she is dead on right about moving forward, especially in AI landscape.
9
SPEAKER_00
Creativity really is gonna be huge.
9
SPEAKER_00
You need neurodivergent people in upper management.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
Like helping run the show.
9
SPEAKER_00
I think that s really important.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
All right.
9
SPEAKER_00
All right.
9
SPEAKER_00
Love you.
9
SPEAKER_00
Love you, bye.
9
you