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The ultimate gift of the human mind, I think, is dreaming.
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Love and all those things, yes, but the process of dreaming.
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Now, I m going to be bold here.
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This is a conversation.
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I think we sleep because we must dream.
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He is a dual-trained neurosurgeon who has both an M.D.
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and Ph.D., and he s based out of the world-famous City of Hope Hospital here in Los Angeles.
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He s a researcher and author of 10 books and countless academic papers on the brain.
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Dr. Rahul Jandayal.
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Why, after dozens of years of doing brain surgeries, being a PhD in neuroscience and understanding the mind, did you want to dive into understanding dreams?
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You put it right where it needs to be.
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This is a big topic.
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When color TV showed up, the dream reports of thousands of people being asked, woken up in their sleep, what are you dreaming about?
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The dream started to be more in color.
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I ve woken up, but not been able to move or speak.
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Yeah.
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And I feel like I m screaming, but nothing s coming out.
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Yeah.
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What is that?
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Sleep paralysis.
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What you describe about... This is great.
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Just give me a minute to take this one, because this one I got a lot of science.
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What the... Do you think our dreams have meaning in our waking life?
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Well, that has the massive question, right?
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So that s the... What I would say is...
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Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness.
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Very excited about our guest.
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We have the inspiring Dr. Rahul Jandial in the house.
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Good to see you, man.
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Welcome back.
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My pleasure.
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The last interview we did blew up.
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People were fascinated by it.
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You are a neuroscientist who studies the mind, but also a brain surgeon who has been
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helping remove cancer for dozens of years to over thousands of patients.
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And so you studied the material brain, but also the spiritual side of the brain as well, the mind, let s say.
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And you re an expert in both.
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And the last interview we did, we talked about many different things around these topics.
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but you have a new book called, This Is Why You Dream, What Your Sleeping Brain Reveals About Your Waking Life.
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And this is interesting, as we were talking before, that there s not really anyone who is a scientist of dreams out in the world yet, except for you re starting this path.
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You re starting to talk about the neuroscience of dreaming, which I think is fascinating, because you told me about a third of the time, we don t remember
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what we re doing in our lives.
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A third of the time we re asleep and a lot of us don t remember our dreams, we don t understand our dreams, they don t make sense to us.
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We have nightmares, we have erotic dreams, we have inspiring dreams, we have dreams where we feel like we re falling or dreams where we feel like we re about to die and then we wake up in a shock.
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We have all these weird moments sometimes we remember and we
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We overemphasize what the dream was, but it really didn t happen.
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And then other times we have no clue what happened in our dreams.
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And so why, after dozens of years of doing brain surgeries, being a PhD in neuroscience and understanding the mind, did you want to dive into understanding dreams?
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I mean, you put it right where it needs to be.
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This is a big topic.
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There s a reason people haven t been tackling it because it s like trying to grab a cloud or like trying to hold on to something that s just like, we all know what it is.
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We know what dreams are.
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We all have had dreams.
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I don t have to explain to you what a nightmare is.
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You know what it is.
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I know what it is.
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We don t talk about it.
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We can t really wrap our minds around it, but it s something we all experience.
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It s something we all undergo.
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So your question about why did I want to,
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or write a book on dreams, what I would tell you is I was asked to write this book.
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So the way I ve, my journey that s ended up here, a lot of it is, you know, I have sons.
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I have three, as we were talking about, they re 18, 19, and 22.
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I ve taken care of thousands of cancer patients.
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I ve done surgery in South America, that these experiences are also part of my resume.
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Now, I happen to have a PhD in neuroscience and I m a neurosurgeon, but there are other neuroscientists, there are other neurosurgeons, I believe.
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And in this conversation, when you hear me say, I believe, or I wonder,
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Or could it be, it s out of respect for you and your listeners, because you don t want anybody coming on this topic and saying, aha, I got it all figured out.
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One, two, three, no.
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It s an exploration.
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I m looking at fragments and pieces across broad scientific things.
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I m bringing my own stories into my own experiences.
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And I m saying, look, look at these little, they re almost like fireflies, these little glimpses of knowledge that we now have, or that 3000 years ago, they were talking about lucid dreaming.
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They being Aristotle, like what is the consistent pattern?
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Uh, not, not my dream, not your dream.
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But what if we look at 10,000 dreams?
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Do we start to see some patterns?
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We do, and we ll get into that.
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Nightmares and erotic dreams are essentially universal.
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Falling dreams and teeth falling out have happened for hundreds of years across cultures.
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Like when you went from carriages to cars to electric vehicles to television, those dreaming patterns are consistent.
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So the first thing I thought, wait a second, they re being driven by the brain.
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Then when Technicolor came in, Dream Reports, people cataloging what dreams are going on, right?
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That s where I m studying is like, what dreams happen most commonly?
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What dreams don t happen at all?
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So two things popped into my mind.
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I was looking at this and saying, when color TV showed up, the Dream Reports of thousands of people being asked and woken up in their sleep, what are you dreaming about?
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The dream started to be more in color.
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So clearly waking life fed dreaming life.
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And then the other thing I noticed was, rarely did they report math in dreams.
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Yeah, I don t think I ve ever had a math dream.
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Thank God, right?
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That doesn t sound fun.
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But most people, we look at 10,000 dreams, everybody s had a nightmare, nearly everyone.
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In science, when I say everybody, I don t mean 100%.
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It s like above 90-ish, it gets to be essentially universal nightmares and erotic dreams.
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Very few, lots of emotional dreams, lots of visual dreams, a lot of movement dreams.
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we ll get into that but very few math dreams right like very few people said and even the scientists I say I came up with the idea of dreaming it s a visual thing like the snake eating itself or two comets moving apart and what I realize now that those you know what we dream
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And now in the last 20, 30 years, we could have brain scans.
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That s a, that s a simple word, but we re going to dissect that in this conversation.
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Like the metabolite, how much glucose your brain is using?
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Where s that glucose being used?
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What s the electricity?
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So when I say brain scan, there s a lot of different ways of scanning brain information.
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The brain scans at night in a machine with people sleeping with people dreaming
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they were notably dampened, not off.
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Let s change all of this.
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There s no part of your brain that s off, otherwise it d be a stroke, you know, that part would die.
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But everything in the brain is a modulation.
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It s always like 51, 49.
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Nothing is ever on or off.
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It s not a switch.
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There s blood flow always going everywhere, okay?
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If a branch is blocked, then you have a stroke.
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What happens is the executive network
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in the prefrontal cortex, just the part of the brain behind the forehead, the part that does reason and logic and math, it s 49, it s 48.
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Right now, it s probably 51, 52, but it s dampened at night.
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And so dampening the executive network in our dreams allows for them to be illogical, allows them to be wild, in my opinion, and also explains why we re not doing math.
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Because that s needed for math.
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Interesting.
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So that, it took my breath away.
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I was like, wait a second.
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So some patterns of dreaming from thousands of dreams can be explained by some patterns of the dreaming brain.
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And that was the idea in my head.
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And my publisher in London, Penguin UK, we were talking about doing a different book.
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That s going to be the next one, hopefully.
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You know, she said, we need, we, and I think she meant like the publishing world and readers and people in general, like, they re real, you know, they put out books that are like, French fries, I love French fries, but they also want to put out some stuff like, look, this is an important book.
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We need a book about dreams explained about the science of it, the story of it, a love letter to dreams, because there is no dream scientist.
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It s not a field.
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I m a neuroscientist with life experiences trying to put together brain scans, dream reports, neurons in a petri dish to put together a story of what I think is happening in dreams and dreaming.
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So that s how this started.
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And it s just, what s that happened has been an ignition in my mind for about 18 months.
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So there s been a, there have been reports on lots of different dreams, right?
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There s been like people documenting their dreams and there s studies around that.
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Great question, first of all.
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All right.
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Again, not my dream or your dream, but there are great dream banks.
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Uh-huh people for decades have Woken people up in sleep labs.
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They put an electrode on to make sure they re sleeping.
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They say hey wake up What are you dreaming about and they write it down?
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Yeah, so that that world s been happening Okay
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That s where I m getting like the certain percentage report dreams of falling, certain percentage dreams of being chased, a certain percentage.
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Matt really that s sound very low.
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Yeah, everybody nightmares everybody sexual erotic dreams.
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Okay, so you that pattern is not mine, right?
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It s what other people methodically have been cataloging by people either sending in writing journaling Or sleep labs being you know, woken up and that that s where I m getting those patterns Do you think our dreams have meaning in our waking life?
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Well, that is the past a massive question, right?
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So that s the that s the
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What I would say is, let s go backwards a little bit.
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My answer is yes.
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But to be able to share with you how to go about extracting that meaning, one, it s going to be individual.
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I can t tell you what your dreams are about, and you can t tell me what my dreams are about.
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So it s a process of self-examination.
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Yes, dreams have meaning.
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Not all dreams.
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Not all our waking thoughts are fresh or important or worth holding on to, but let s get to that as can do dreams have meaning.
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But with your permission, let s equip people with what is happening in the dreaming brain and then what different dreams mean.
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So then they have a playbook at the end.
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And what I would say is the dreaming brain is, this was the essential question is,
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Okay, so you got all the dream patterns, right?
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So we got what we dream, you re looking at what people have cataloged.
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To make sense of why we dream, that s your essential question that we get to.
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And then there s this thing like the dreaming brain and the waking brain, right?
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And I believe these big ideas are applicable to everybody like getting groceries, frustrated,
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Why am I stressed out?
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Why am I overreacting?
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Like all the things for living a better waking life, you can t separate them from that third of your life you spend sleeping and potentially dreaming, right?
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So I go way back to try to understand this and to make sense of it for myself.
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And I think you ll find there s science and there s stories, but there s a synthesis.
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So first thing is all life,
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is governed by the rotation of the planet.
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Let s just start with square one.
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Let s just get to the basic here.
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Whether it s those hot springs deep in the ocean and there s some bacteria there, or a Venus flytrap that opens and closes, or the moon and the tides, or sleep, right?
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This is governed because that was the foundation on which life arose, right?
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And when you look at that, what I would say is the material, the living material on planet Earth follows that.
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Whether it s the tide or the plankton or fish or all migration, but also the material in our brain.
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Like there s nothing in our skull that if you pieced it out, there s no special ingredient.
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like from Krypton or something.
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Everything in nature is also everything inside our skull in these brains, right?
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That s connected differently, it s functioning differently.
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But that was like the first thing that really tripped me out.
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I was like, we too follow the laws, fundamental laws of Earth s rotation.
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These circadian rhythms you re hearing about and cycles and seasons.
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And that was the first time I said, okay, so the brain is, the brain is,
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The waking brain and the sleeping brain are doing a 24-hour cycle for as long as the run you have on this planet.
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That s the first thing.
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That cycle, it actually, you know, there was like,
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I love this topic, by the way.
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They re like people who go into canes for like six months, it s still in a cycle.
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Like it s not based just on dark, black eyeshades or not.
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Like we, the tissue in our bodies, the cells, we re following this rotation, okay?
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So if we say that there s the waking brain and the sleeping brain, and every 24 hours it does its things, two-third waking, one-third,
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sleeping, and that happens for the most part, you know, for how long you live.
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Now, a surgeon in training, I might skip a few nights, so maybe I ve had 500 or 1,000 nights, but overwhelmingly, I follow this cycle too.
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And in that cycle, we have to ask ourselves, well,
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What s going on in the dreaming brain?
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And right away I ll tell you, it s so important there s something called sleep pressure.
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You could defy a lot of things, but you go a day without sleeping, there s something building inside you saying sleep, sleep, sleep.
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You ll fall asleep in a dangerous spot.
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You ll fall asleep standing up sometimes.
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You ll fall asleep even though you haven t eaten.
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There s something fundamental called sleep pressure.
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that makes us follow that rhythm, right?
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Your body will force you to sleep eventually.
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Well, I would say your brain.
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Your brain just shuts off.
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It builds a pressure.
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You can startle people and they ll wake up.
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But at some point, there s this pressure that s bringing you down to sleep.
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Really?
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You see that?
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I think torture techniques were based off of that.
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We saw that.
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Nobody could stay up a third night in the hospital.
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They tried to get us to a long time ago, the battle day.
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Really?
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Yeah, but second night, you could do.
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Third night in pot.
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So there s a sleep pressure that the brain generates.
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Not the body, the brain.
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Because just to give you just examples like we re talking about, like regular examples.
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We re not trying to get... We ll bring the science in, but the complexity is in the concept.
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We can put hearts from one to another, livers from one to another, lungs from one to another.
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They all follow that person s brain s order.
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So really what we re talking about is the brain is saying, I need to sleep.
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The brain is saying, I need to sleep.
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The brain is saying, OK, there s some threat going on, or you ve got some demands.
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You re running an ultramarathon.
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You re a surgeon on call.
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I can go a day, but I need to sleep.
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So, that s the first thing in this discussion is, why do we need to sleep?
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Now, I m going to be bold here, this is a conversation.
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I think we sleep because we must dream.
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Now, let me just set that up for you.
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Wow.
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When you go without sleep, you have surges in REM and dreaming sleep right away.
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First thing you do when you ve gone a day without sleep, if you put that person in a brain scan, but there s exquisite ways of checking it, is that the first thing they do is they dream wildly, right?
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So that s an interesting thing to me.
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The longer we go in our night,
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of restful sleep, the more you re dreaming on the tail end.
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So maybe mental clarity, if we take that phrase, comes from having that longer night s sleep.
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Well, what happens in that fifth, sixth, and seventh hour?
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You re dreaming more.
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So when I start to see these patterns, I wonder, one, the brain, not the body, needs to sleep.
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And then what is the brain doing in sleep?
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Just check this out man.
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It s it s doing something that if you put Electrodes on the surface of our scalps and we all fall asleep at night during the day the waves that the measurements are You know sort of wavy there s different ones that you depending on how you re engaging at night.
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There are some sharp 90 minute
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Pattern That stuff is designed that s built in really yeah, so that s not new we don t have that when we re awake No during the like if something startles us the electricity will be different if we meditate the electricity will be different during waking But at night you re all you re on something program
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Then that s not new, Lewis.
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That s the stuff that I ve known for 20 years and sleep people have known for 40 years.
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What I m trying to do is give you an explanation, a synthesis.
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That s not random.
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That s not a glitch.
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Seven billion brains on a 24-hour cycle.
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Sleep pressure, you got to lie down, you got to sleep.
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The brain is saying you got to sleep.
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And when it s sleeping, it s doing this.
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90 crisp cycles of REM sleep.
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You ve seen the charts.
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They look like the top of a Tetris thing or a Lego thing.
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That is something fundamental that s happening, in my opinion.
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And so that s why I think.
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We must sleep, but I think what s the most important part of sleep is the dreaming.
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My kidney and my liver don t need to sleep.
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You can take part of the liver from a mom and put it in the child.
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It s no longer connected, the transplanted liver, to the web of nerves.
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Liver s fine.
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Lungs are fine moving between humans.
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Wow.
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Right?
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So what I m trying to point out there is that it s the brain that s running the show.
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It s on the earthly pattern.
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It wants to sleep.
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And in that sleep, what is it doing?
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It s dreaming.
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The brain, in my opinion, with respect and humility.
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The brain needs to dream.
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The sleep is so that the brain can dream and stay fine-tuned and stay fully adapted and stay fully enriched in all the corners of his mind without just the boring part of our day, right?
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If the brain only did what we did, driving the 101 or doing this, which is fantastic, but it would become rigid, right?
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It would become like an arm that s never stretched past a certain distance.
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You get a contracture.
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Well, the brain tissue, my opinion, that dreaming is the brain s way.
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Other people have other ideas, like it s threat training, or it s a nighttime therapist.
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I get that, and I think in some capacity.
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But at the most fundamental level, it s like high-intensity training for your mind.
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At night, it just goes wild to make sure all those capacities and resources
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Imaginations, if you will, are accessible to you if you needed them during the day, if the environment or evolution needed it.
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So that s like the big explanation about what s happening when we sleep.
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We re dreaming.
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Dreaming is important.
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It s metabolically active.
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It s electrically active.
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It puts us at risk.
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And even if you are in danger, your brain will force you to lie down so you can sleep to dream.
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That s how fundamental I think dreams are.
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Now, what if people, that s powerful, I m glad you shared that, and what if people are listening or watching say, well, I can t remember any of my dreams, and I don t think I dream at all, because I can t remember them.
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So what s wrong with me, and should I be worried if I don t have dreams?
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Well, I would say the genius is built in.
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So that s happening whether you want it or not.
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And the essential question of, I ve had people ask me that, like, well, if I don t remember my dreams, is it useful?
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I mean, if you re not remembering them, so let me take that one apart a little bit.
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Here s my thinking on it.
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We ll bring in imagination and even sports visualization to try to understand that.
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And we ll bring in something called autobiographical memory.
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So let s start with memory first, okay?
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It s not what you re seeing on TV or like, you know, remembering names or addresses.
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I like my iPhone.
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I don t remember phone number again, you know?
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Like there s that kind of memory.
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Then there s procedural memory, like riding a bike, tying your shoelaces.
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Then there s episodic memory, remembering episodes of your life.
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So we have lots of different shades and types of memory.
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And the one that connects me to the fact that I was here with you maybe about two years ago is something called autobiographical memory.
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I have gone through so many different things in so many different countries and places.
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But I feel as if I have inhabited and lived through all of those experiences.
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Think about that, right?
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What s the thing that stitches all my life together?
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That s a type of memory.
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It s called autobiographical memory.
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And so I think by design and importance,
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It s to, some rare cases, it s to avoid waking and dream confusion.
2
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So it has its wild run at night, but when you wake up, and we ll talk about that transition, like the transition between a dreaming brain and waking brain, it s not a hard line, it can be fuzzy in the morning, and that s why some people report sleep paralysis and goblins and weird stuff, but,
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The autobiographical memory has to come back into command, because that s what stitches our waking life together.
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That s what s get food, get to work, get on the subway.
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So the autobiographical memory takes over every morning when we wake up.
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And for it, I think for us to stay, to not be confused about what reality is, because we had such a wild ride.
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The memory is designed to have dreaming fade to the background.
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And so I think it s happening.
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Electrically, it s happening.
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And what we re catching are a few glimpses of it bleeding into our waking brain and say, ooh, man, last night, what was going on in my head?
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Those are the glimpses and the flares of the dreaming brain bleeding into the waking life.
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And those are the ones that
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That we want to pay attention to you know, so that s the that s the way I m thinking about dreaming and trying to explain it to
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Okay, there s so many questions I want to ask here, but there s different types of dreams.
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There s nightmares, there s erotic dreams, there s weird, crazy dreams, there s sleep paralysis.
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And I think I know what that is because I think I ve had that a few different times.
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So I d love to start there because this is something I can relate to where I ve woken up, but not been able to move or speak.
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And I feel like I m screaming, but nothing s coming out.
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What is that?
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because that s terrifying i know right but you re asking me to like you re asking me to tackle giants of giants of mystery tell me everything what it is yeah in one afternoon you know but but what again with humility if you hold on to the concept if you just if you just say look that was
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Look, we don t have to do a study, but I get what he s saying.
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We re on planet Earth.
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We clearly have to sleep, right?
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Our brain, I believe him.
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Our brain is the thing that needs to sleep.
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And now what he s saying is that, hey, check this out.
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While you re sleeping, you re dreaming.
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Whether you remember none of it, a little of it, or some of it, you re dreaming.
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Okay, if we hold on to that and then always come back to like, if one person later on is like, huh, I am a cycle of waking brain, dreaming brain.
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If you just walk away one thing, like you re waking brain, dreaming brain, 24 hours, waking times, whatever life is.
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Waking brain, and just to ask yourself, is this contribution to my thinking, to my emotion,
2
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From the waking brain or the dreaming brain or or somewhere where it were blends so when you sleep paralysis a Third of people have experienced it I haven t but when I wrote I started writing my sleep paralysis the what you describe about This is this is great.
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Let me just give me a minute to take this one because this one I got a lot of science when you
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What the dreaming brain also does is not just hyper-emotional and hyper-visual and dampened logic, right?
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That we opened with.
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hyper-emotional, hyper-visual, dampened logic, okay?
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So that s there.
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What it also does is it locks down your body.
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So you re temporarily paralyzed.
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There s some exceptions with reflexes or sleepwalking, but in general, you re temporarily paralyzed so the dreaming brain can let loose.
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Be emotional, be wild, and in the morning that paralysis has to come off.
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Interesting.
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That we can all agree on, right?
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That s the dreaming brain and the waking brain.
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When there is a mismatch of you waking your dreaming brain, the mind is coming to, but the chemicals that have locked down your body
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Right?
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The chemical paralysis is still there.
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People will wake up locked in their body.
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That s kind of what you re describing.
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And then on top of that, they start describing goblins and monsters and different things, lurking intruders.
2
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I ve never experienced that either.
2
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But that s described so much so that if you go to Italy, you go to Africa, you go to other places, they all have a similar story of being locked in the body
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and having a threatening presence in the room, and sometimes a feeling of suffocation.
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Wow.
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That grouping is something humans experience, and something cultures have come up with their own stories about.
2
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So if people want to look it up, it s like succubus.
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The incubus and succubus come from that.
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Yeah, yeah.
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There s a famous painting with a goblin on top of a woman who s asleep.
2
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Right.
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What I want people to go is, ah, I see.
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That sleep paralysis that Louis brought up was because the dreaming brain and the waking brain, they don t just snap to the next phase, that sometimes they bleed into each other.
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And that s called sleep exit.
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That little window is
3
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called Sleep Exit.
3
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Sleep Entry is a fascinating one too, but Sleep Exit.
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Yeah, I ve had it a couple times at night, like in the beginning of sleeping also, where I ve like fallen asleep, but like 30 minutes later I ve like woken up.
3
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It s almost I m not asleep yet, but I am for a minute.
3
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And so my fiance says, I mean this is just from her theories, but she says, you know, that s you entering a lucid dreaming, like allowing that to happen, allowing that sleep paralysis to happen, because you re half awake, half asleep.
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And if you stay there and you don t freak out and scream, like try to scream.
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you could actually enter, she says, that s what happens for her, and she enters the most incredible lucid dreams that are vivid in memories for her.
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She s not wrong.
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And so it s more of just like surrendering to, ah, I can t move.
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So she s not wrong.
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But again, so people are like, what are they talking?
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If you keep this conversation on the framework of dreaming brain and waking brain,
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then you know where the explanations land.
3
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So what you re talking about is the waking brain entering the sleeping brain.
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The sleep world, yeah, yeah.
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Very good.
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And that, again, doesn t happen in a millisecond.
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You don t blink your eyes and go into that mode.
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It bleeds.
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And I remember they said, how do I explain it?
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I was diving away.
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I don t do it anymore.
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I was diving in the caverns of like the Yucatan and where the freshwater meets the ocean water.
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There s like four feet or it s like blurry.
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And I was like, yeah, it s not going to go from a freshwater river to ocean and like what, like a hair?
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There s a period of overlap.
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Interesting.
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And so if you hold on to that,
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your waking brain is starting to enter your dreaming, your sleeping brain, that window, there s a word for it, it s called hypnagogic and hypnopompic, forget about that.
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I like, because I want to have a conversation, sleep entry.
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Sleep entry is also a 15, 20 minute period where you can kind of be in these liminal spaces where you re like, I m remembering a lot, but man, I m having some wild thoughts.
3
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Lucid dreaming is when you ve been asleep and then the,
3
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Awareness you re in a dream come returns.
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That s a whole different topic.
3
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So she s right.
3
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It s a blended state your significant other but mm-hmm sleep entry has been channeled by Salvador Dali and others and in movie inception as a place to extract fresh ideas and
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Your fresh ideas might be great, my fresh ideas might be bad.
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I m not saying that s the way to become a creative genius, but people have used that window and now there s some devices that when they feel you falling asleep they ll wake you up.
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So sleep entry is the blurry movement from
3
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the waking brain to the dreaming brain.
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And that is an interesting space for creativity.
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Sleep exit is the dreaming brain to the waking brain.
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And sometimes the body stays locked in and locked down, and the mind comes back, and that freaks people out.
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That s called sleep paralysis.
3
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Wow.
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That s my synthesis.
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That s interesting.
3
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Now, this might be off topic here, but I m curious.
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To have an optimal day,
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Is it better to wake up organically without an alarm or to wake up with something that is alarming you when you wake up?
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Great question, first of all.
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Because now we have the concept.
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So if you believe your dreaming thoughts are ones you want to hold on to, if they re nightmares, maybe you want to forget, but nightmares won t let you forget.
3
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That s a different topic.
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They arrive in children for a different reason.
3
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But what I do now, because I have the luxury
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of a bed and curtains.
3
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So it s out of respect for all the people in this world that don t have that.
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But I believe when I have had a good idea, actually forget that, my last hundred bad ideas have come from somewhere in sleep entry and sleep exit.
3
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And when I m driving around LA or whatever, I m, you know, I m in LAX or Heathrow, whatever it is, uh, when I go, Oh, that s interesting thought.
3
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It s not an aha moment, but when you have a thought that you don t know where it came from, I believe it s from that nightly process that s going on.
3
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That work you re putting in at night.
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on your own, the design for the brain to dream, to stay creative, to stay enriched, to activate emotions and sights that are way beyond what you would even choose for during the day, right?
3
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We d become so boring if our brains didn t dream at night, right?
3
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The capacity would be constrained.
3
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So when I have an interesting idea, I try to think about, did that come from my dreaming brain or have I been working with that?
3
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So I ve been giving these talks on creativity
3
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And people are, so there s an incubation period and extraction period.
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I believe habits during the day was like, like colored television, more colored dreams, put some red colored goggles on people and they had more red colored dreams.
3
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I believe like I do things like I like to flip through magazines or I listen to different music and I, I take different routes home.
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I believe I m feeding.
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my dream life, and then at sleep entry or sleep exit, I try to hold on to, what was I thinking about?
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What was I thinking about?
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How did I feel about that?
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What was going on?
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And to do that, you can t have the alarm, which is a luxury.
3
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And the first thing you can t check is your phone.
3
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Because the minute you check your phone, that autobiographical memory is on to the day.
3
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What you want is that autobiographical memory, the thing that stitches every day together, not to come on so fast.
3
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Some people, I mean, you can read about it, but the concept is there to slow down the sleep exit or to pay attention to the sleep entry and jot down or hold on to those windows.
3
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And I believe, for me, whether it s coming up with a new surgery, coming up with an idea for science or working with the LA Ballet now or writing, like,
3
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When I have had a good idea, it s come from those spaces.
3
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Interesting.
3
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Not from being rushed and waking up with an alarm and going right at the end.
3
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That s important.
3
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You ve got to shelter and food.
3
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You ve got to stay employed, showing up on time.
3
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It s a luxury.
3
SPEAKER_01
But if you re really trying to take yourself to the next level, my process for extracting ideas is to work with my dreaming life.
3
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Wow.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s amazing.
3
SPEAKER_00
So you mentioned nightmares.
3
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kids have nightmares and also kids or teens start to have erotic dreams at the same time.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
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And I m sure they wish they had more erotic dreams than nightmares.
3
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But why do we need both erotic dreams and nightmares as we re growing up?
3
SPEAKER_01
All right, so again, we return to the foundation of our conversation that these are back to what we dream, OK?
3
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Like, that s been described for a long time.
3
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I m not coming at this new, right?
3
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And so when we look at the pattern of what people dream, you know, the simple stuff like, oh, you have a flight tomorrow.
3
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You have a dream about missing your flight.
3
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You don t need to interpret that.
3
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You know what that is.
3
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Or you ve got a presentation tomorrow.
3
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You have a dream about showing up naked or something behind the podium.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like, we know.
3
SPEAKER_01
We get that.
3
SPEAKER_01
But why would you have nightmares like that this chapter 2 for a reason?
3
SPEAKER_01
Because I wanted to come across and just say look this is a work of imagination.
3
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Yes that there s nobody that can take these few glimpses of science and life and come up with like a Foolproof.
3
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Yeah, I got it all figured out story.
3
SPEAKER_01
So here s what s interesting about nightmares I
3
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If there s anything that would make somebody say, hey, this dreaming thing is not good for us, why do we have nightmares?
3
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It feels like a glitch, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
It feels like the mind s mistake, if you will.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t think it is.
3
SPEAKER_01
So when you look at the patterns, to understand it, there are two types of nightmares.
3
SPEAKER_01
And there s the one with the big idea.
3
SPEAKER_01
But let me get to the other one that s easier.
3
SPEAKER_01
If you have been traumatized, assaulted, PTSD, nightmares, or flashbacks.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s a bad memory on loop.
3
SPEAKER_01
Stamped with raw emotion.
3
SPEAKER_01
Can t shake it.
3
SPEAKER_01
That we have some firmer understanding of.
3
SPEAKER_01
So if you re struggling and you have worsening headaches, you say, hey, I got to think about seeing a doctor.
3
SPEAKER_01
If you re an athlete, you have worsening pain,
3
SPEAKER_01
The key is if you have worsening new onset and progressive nightmares, talk to your doctor or therapist about it.
3
SPEAKER_01
It could be a psychological thermometer that things aren t going well for you.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s a big topic.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I think other people are in that space.
3
SPEAKER_01
I ll leave that one there.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
The one that interests me is
3
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having three sons, is each of them at one point, I had to say to them, it s all right.
3
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It was only a nightmare.
3
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It was only a dream.
3
SPEAKER_01
So the first thing I thought was, does that mean they didn t, and I m looking at, now I m looking at neurodevelopment.
3
SPEAKER_01
To understand this, I went into a whole different space.
3
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We re not born walking in
4
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talking, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
So you see kids, they re putting things together.
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The movements become fluid.
4
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You re physically not born made, and you re cultivated physically, right?
4
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I believe the mind is also being cultivated internally.
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And one example would be, you ve got to remind kids it s only a dream.
4
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So that means at some point when they re young, likely they re confusing or cannot separate dreaming thoughts and waking thoughts.
4
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That and at that time when you ask them what they think about it s very In general, I mean this one kid might tell you the wildest thing I m not telling that person or that parent that that s not what they re experiencing, but the pattern is The dream reports of children and some families signed up for this.
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I ve just I studied it They follow their dream reports from like age 2 to 20 Wow Longitudinally like what do you dream about now?
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What are you doing right now?
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What do you dream right now and?
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Their dreams are simple.
4
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It s like a table or a blanket
4
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Interestingly, when they dream of animals, they re not often pets.
4
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They re like beasts and monsters and teddy bears.
4
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So I can t explain all of that, but that s what they re describing.
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It s not the pet that they have that s in their dream.
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And as we re learning to walk and talk to age two, three, four, something s going on in the mind.
4
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There are some structures.
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I need a moment for this one.
4
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There s a type of cognition that s developing.
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First, it s visual-spatial.
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And then these developmental scientists, they looked at it that the wildness of kids  dreams correlates more to the complexity of how they navigate visual-spatial things.
4
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They have a test called block design.
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It s not how well they can spell or remember.
4
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The more three-dimensional they are,
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that parallels complexity of dreaming in a child.
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So all the parents out there, you don t make them memorize.
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In my opinion, I had to cultivate their sense of gymnastics, music, art, whatever you can, different foods, different diversity experiences.
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It s not being correlated to logic.
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So that also makes me feel like that guides a little bit.
4
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And then what happens is,
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They develop this thing called, at some point they realize, it s just an example, that teacher or that uncle or that person that they re smiling and saying, hey, I wanna help you.
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But the capacity develops, it s called theory of mind where you start to read the other person s intention beyond just what they re saying.
4
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
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Yeah, that develops.
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Kids are gullible, that develops.
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Theory of mind.
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People can look it up, theory of mind.
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Just like there s a, I can throw the ball, that develops.
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At a certain age, around five or six, seven,
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And the idea of that person s intentions may not be completely clear, or they might be misrepresenting their intentions.
4
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
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Or maybe I shouldn t trust them, or maybe they would hurt me.
4
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These important concepts arrive in the brain at the same time as nightmares arrive.
4
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Wow.
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So I think if I were to say, why do it?
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And then these nightmares all go away for kids.
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And then as adults, we get them if we have trauma.
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They come as a wave.
4
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s crazy, right?
4
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Wow.
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I might be completely wrong, but I would love to hear somebody come up with a better.
4
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So you re not just gullible all the time.
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I think nightmares make the mind.
4
SPEAKER_00
Nightmares make the mind.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, they make you sharp.
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They give you a sense of self versus other.
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They make you less gullible.
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They create a sense of threat.
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The fleeing and the terror
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I think it guides the cultivation of this thing called theory of mind, where you realize just because the person s smiling, that doesn t mean they have good intentions.
4
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
4
SPEAKER_00
And that is cool, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, they re not arriving for all of us at age eight, six, seven, eight, and then fading for most of us as we get into adolescence without a reason.
4
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That s not a glitch in the system.
4
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
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My belief, I wonder,
4
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Again, with humility, and I m taking on big things here.
4
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So if that s not what it is for you, I believe it.
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I m not saying I got it all figured out, but I m just here to show you like.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then people and that we are in many ways still that dynamic as adults or whatever you re at the grounded level Your struggles with your love or your struggle with your partner like you re a dynamic ecosystem of mind and body And I just want to take people back to me like look at that Like we re not and there s a certain part of the brain that gives you that capacity like this It s we ll get into that some other day but in that part the the newest part of the brain that pushed the forehead forward There s a part that
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SPEAKER_00
When it s injured, it doesn t work well, we can t make new opinions or we become gullible.
4
SPEAKER_00
There s some cellular basis to the theory of mind.
4
SPEAKER_00
But again, I think nightmares arriving for all of us at the same time as we re becoming like, oh, that person might hurt me, or what do I want?
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Self versus other.
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I mean, self in italics.
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I think that s all happening in parallel for a reason.
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I think that s all happening in parallel.
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Chapter two, right out the gates.
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So if nightmares make the mind, what do erotic dreams do?
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Okay.
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So these are my, that s why it says chapter three.
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I know everybody s going to want to hear about this one, but it s, you know, it s PG 13, but the, but the, I think the concepts are, you know, very mature.
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Um, so again, again, we returned to our primer that there s this,
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We are waking brain and dreaming brain, and they intersect.
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We stab.
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I think everybody knows that.
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It s a matter of to what degree and how.
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That s the other universal dream.
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I ve never had a dream of teeth falling out, but it s been reported for centuries.
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I ve had it.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, a few times.
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So dreams follow patterns, right?
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People have dreams of falling.
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But that s like 20%, 60%.
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I ve had that too.
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But I ve had dreams of falling but not you know, but everybody s had essentially I mean there ll be some people say no, I ve never had a sexual dream Okay, I m not here to a majority majority.
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I mean the way in scientific terms Everybody.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, so I call those two universal dreams nightmares and erotic dreams universal universal dreams
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Um, and I think when something is universal, a part of our awesome fields out there, like evolutionary psychology, like the gifts, their strengths and weaknesses today aren t just physical.
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That we re inheriting thinking patterns, dreaming patterns.
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Um, this is mind blowing, but this has been well known.
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I m just able to put it, I think into a framework now is.
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falling teeth dreams, they don t follow, they don t, teeth falling out, it doesn t follow a pattern in people.
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But nightmares cluster in families.
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Think about, when I say, yeah, exactly, I have the same, and I ve known that, because I went through medical school and they said that, I just didn t have a,
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understanding of it, but I believe, and there is evidence, that we inherit not just our physical traits, but our cognitive traits.
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Oh, yeah.
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And if we inherit our risk aversion or proclivity to risk, if we inherit our parents  coping mechanisms or failure to cope,
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You know, we may be inheriting dreaming pattern.
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Interesting.
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And I think that we have to be open to that, that that s why nightmares arrive for every kid, man.
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That s not happening by chance.
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I may not have the explanation for it.
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I think it cultivates the sense of self and gives you mind reading ability with somebody else.
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That s called theory of mind.
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That s my opinion.
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Then the next one comes is sexual dreams.
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And this one is interesting because, let me break this down for you.
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It s different because when my sons were born and we re born with like the marble, you know, it s, and what you, you ve heard this, use it or lose it.
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You know, like if you cover a child s eye because they have some health issues, that part that goes to the right side of the brain and the left side, one, each eye goes to both.
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occipital lobes.
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It s not this one to this one.
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It s this crossing.
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If you cover it, those parts wither or they repurpose.
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It s an, it s an adaptive system.
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Use it or lose it.
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You got the neurons, the hundred billion neurons, they re like microscopic jellyfish.
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Use them or you re going to lose them.
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That makes sense.
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And that s what happens for vision, hearing, taste, movement.
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If you wrap somebody s arm, the motor area will wither.
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Wow.
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Okay, so that s built in.
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But how does a touch become a caress?
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That s a capacity from the same...
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from the same sensation, now it can become erogenous.
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There are new nerves being laid down in our fingertips, right?
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But when a lover s touch is different than an intention, even, not even a touch.
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So that capacity develops in the human brain.
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uh, around the time of 11, 12 and 13.
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Interesting.
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And it s, it s not after puberty.
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It s not like puberty.
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However, people conceive puberty, but you don t go through bodily puberty and then say, I think I m turned on.
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It s different.
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You get to you, you, your brain develops the ability to be turned on.
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I believe through erotic dreams.
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Wow.
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That erotic dreams are again,
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the mind s cultivation for desire.
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And then you start to see changes in the sensation part of the brain where now it s not just, now erotic touch is possible.
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Without getting too deep into like child rearing and all that, but sensuality arrives.
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It s not prepubescent.
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it s not there, it must come at a certain time.
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And around that time, people who have never had intercourse, people who have been castrated chemically for cancer treatment, people who have had chemotherapy, people who have had their ovaries removed, they still have erotic dreams.
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Really?
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It s not the body saying, I like it, let s think more about it.
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I think it s the other way around.
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Wow.
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And that it arrives
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And in the biggest sense, wouldn t that be an important thing for people to procreate, that desire arrives?
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And the fact that it arrives before, so here it s not use it or lose it.
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You know, it s, here you go, it s time to use it.
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It comes before it s ready.
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Very good, yeah.
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So it s something, I would love a conversation at a different time with somebody else, but that doesn t follow normal neurodevelopmental pathways.
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Usually, it s like, yeah, I can see.
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And if I cover an eye, I lose that ability.
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You re sort of equipped, and then you cultivate.
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Here, it arrives.
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And again, erotic dreams, like in that J. Cole song, Wet Dreams, he says, I think I m smashing, but I m sleeping.
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Wow.
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So before he has his first intimate relationship with this person, he s rapping about like he s
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He s performing the act in his dreams, in his erotic dreams, before they even happen in real life.
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That s not the usual order of how the brain and nerves work.
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So again, my humble opinion is erotic dreams are the embodiment of desire.
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They make sure that we want, and that s advantageous for us as creatures, species, and people.
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Do you think the brain and the mind have to dream something first before it can actualize it in real life?
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That s a big question.
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Do they have to dream something or think something first before they can actualize it?
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I think there s two ways to think of that.
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There s the things you want and you pursue.
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And the way I would look at that is,
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Returning to another example is that the dreaming brain and the waking brain is one way to understand it.
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But the structures in the brain during waking life, they re called the executive network, the one we talked about, are dampened down.
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So if you have a goal, pursue it.
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This conversation s not to be like, hey, just dream around all the time.
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You gotta get after stuff.
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You gotta get things done.
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And that s the executive network.
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And that s what drives you to your goals.
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You can think about your goals.
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You can choose your desires.
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And that s been most of my life.
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But then the role of dreams in that, I think, are twofold.
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One, because I have thought about this for myself.
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Again, it s my story with respect.
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I believe that if I have chosen a goal with my waking brain, contributions are coming from my dreaming brain.
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I m incubating thoughts.
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It s feeding me.
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It s feeding some aha moments.
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I m using sleep entry.
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I m using sleep exit.
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And then the bigger one for me is, are there things I want?
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Are there things I hope for?
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that my waking brain just does not have access to.
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And that s the big question in the beginning, like, what s the meaning of dreams?
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And then, you know, if we look at what is happening in the dreaming brain, returning to our, is that it s hyper-emotional.
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It s hyper-visual.
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And this is some real profound stuff when I was learning about this and reading about it.
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I can t get into brain anatomy too much, but I would just say, if you flatten out your brain, the executive network would be like different continents and countries revving up a little bit.
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And the imagination network, which is liberated in the dreaming brain, is other countries coming up.
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It s like Bellagio waterfall.
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Some come up, some comes down.
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It s a toggle.
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And so your brain at its most emotional, metabolically, electrically, is in dreaming.
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You can t rock that hard during the day.
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Really?
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Yeah.
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By measurement.
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So then it says to me, so if there is a meaning, if I can gain further insight into myself,
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I must look at the ways my dreaming brain is exceptional.
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I m not gonna look at my dreaming brain for a math solution, but I might look at what my dreaming brain is putting forth for an emotional solution, an emotional insight, right?
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Like that s the thing that really, I mean, a lot of this is, but the meaning of dreams
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is that the act of self-examination with the recognition that I hope you leave today is, that s a hyper-emotional state.
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What is the value of emotion?
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It s profound.
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When people have injury to these areas, they can t even make any decisions.
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Like, decision making requires emotion.
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Instinct requires emotion.
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My dog, Frankie, she knows when I m sitting in a booby trap, like, hey, we re going out for date night.
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Frankie, come here.
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She s like, there s some brilliance to emotion, right?
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And we have become, again, don t get me wrong, you gotta wake up, you gotta go to work, you gotta get it done.
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And that takes the waking brain and that takes the executive network.
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But if you want insights that can t be gained through the executive network, through always focusing outward.
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then you are getting glimpses of your own brain, your own life s hyper-emotional states through dreaming.
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And I think there s insight to be found in that.
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And that that is the way to dream interpretation, is to recognize the ways that your dreaming brain is exceptional.
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So the way I look at dream interpretation, if I could just jump into that, that s like the last chapter, and we could rock all day, but this is like, it fits nicely here, is,
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is there are dreams, you know what they are.
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It s like naked behind a podium and you had a speech to give late for a flight.
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There s no dream interpretation there.
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You know what that is.
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There are dreams that make no sense at all.
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There s no emotional stamp on them.
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It s clutter.
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We have thoughts during the day we don t pay attention to.
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There are dreams that parallel your life.
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And the two most important ones are end-of-life dreams and pregnancy dreams.
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Really?
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As reported, when people are pregnant, patients are pregnant, they have a lot of dreams about babies and rolling over babies.
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So that doesn t need interpretation.
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If people at the end of life with a cancer diagnosis, and my patients tell me that they re thinking about finish lines and visiting people from the past.
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Really?
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The dreams are accompanying you, right?
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You re making those dreams, so of course the dreams fit what s going on in your life.
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Wow.
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Again, those don t need to be interpreted.
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You know what s going on.
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Sure.
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You re dying, and your dreams are comforting you.
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You ve worked on a lot of people who ve only had a year or a few years left to live.
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Cancer patients.
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What are most of those dreams of people who are dying?
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OK, that s a big question.
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That goes back to the last conversation we had.
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I am surprised by how
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by how valiant most cancer patients are.
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When I look at cancer patients in general, I would think most of them would fall apart, right?
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Because it s quite the word, it s quite the journey.
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But it s overwhelming, not all.
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Some suffer, some handle it poorly, understandably.
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But they do well.
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They show up for their appointments.
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They re brave.
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They dig down for strength and composure, and they find meaning.
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Sometimes they are able to enjoy some things more, knowing that the finish line is in view.
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They re not encumbered, as I mentioned last time, with fuss.
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And those patients, when you talk to them,
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They will report again, not all I ll make a simple statements here, but a lot of them report that the dreams they have
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are positive.
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They re helpful.
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They re not of being eaten alive.
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They re not of, what did I do to get this?
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It s reconciling with lovers and family.
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It s having an expansive view of their life.
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The dreams in these cancer patients, and this is reported in other people who study this, dreams comfort you toward the end of life.
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And so again, the hyper-emotional dream
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So if we have dreams that don t need interpretation because you re falling or you re flying, you re flying and you re falling or you re giving a talk and you show up naked or you re, it s end of life and it s comforting you or it s just, there s no emotional feeling to it.
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I believe if you are to go after a dream to really reflect upon, you wake up,
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And that intense dreaming life gives you a little glimpse, a little peek at something.
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Don t waste that.
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And the one to choose is the one with a powerful central image and a powerful emotion.
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And that to me, that makes sense with what s going on in the brain.
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Hyper-emotional, hyper-visual, right?
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I m trying to make sense of it.
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And just be aware that
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A lot of times, it s symbolic.
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It s not going to be literal, right?
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Because we talked about the executive network is dampened.
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And hyper-emotional, hyper-visual brain, it s a storyteller.
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You want to extract the meaning out of the story, much like a good movie.
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It s not, hey, why am I?
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So for example, some veterans, when they re having trouble with a marriage, will have dreams of war.
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But they don t generally dream of war.
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So you have to be able to.
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Think about it and try to... I can t give you that answer.
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I don t know if you re a veteran or not.
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I think that s where it s hard to go online and say, I dreamt of a leaf or a bridge.
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What does it mean?
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No, it s different for... It s individual.
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And you may not be able to figure it out, let alone somebody else.
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But if you have the luxury to remember your dream, or through auto-suggestion and journaling, you re trying to remember dreams more, which can happen.
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Those are the ones to go after, the hyper-emotional ones, the hyper-visual ones.
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And just keep them here.
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You got 15 things in front of you.
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You re focusing out where your executive network is on.
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But don t forget about that glimpse you got into your hyper-emotional brain and what it produced about you, for you.
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Wow.
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That was fascinating.
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I feel like we re 1% of all the things we could be talking about right now.
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Why do we, why do some people have lucid dreams?
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Why are lucid dreams important?
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And how can we enter lucid dreams faster?
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Okay.
6
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Um, that got two chapters out of nine.
6
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So that s, that s a big one.
6
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Um, and just to, just to be clear what lucid dreams are.
6
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Um, I have not had them.
6
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But Aristotle wrote about them 3,000 years ago.
6
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So this is not like, it s not some current thing, okay?
6
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What is new is the understanding, again, we return to your body s locked down, executive network and logic are dampened, emotions are up, vision s up.
6
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Well, when your body is locked down in lucid dreaming,
6
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What happens is there s one part of the body that s still not locked down, one of those eyeballs.
6
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So when you re waking up in the morning, it just happens that the muscles to the eyeballs are not locked down, and the muscles to the breathing, of course, because you re still breathing in lucid dream or in dreaming in general.
6
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So what lucid dream experts and people looking into that
6
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have started just recently after 3,000 years of many different cultures and books writing about, I felt I was awake in my dream and I could steer the direction of the dream.
6
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So not only were you an actor in the dream, you re the director.
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Interesting, right.
6
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That s been written about for thousands of years.
6
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Right, right, right.
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But what they can do now is in these sleep laboratories,
6
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what they put the stickers on their head to measure the electricity to prove they re asleep.
6
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Because I could imagine like, you know, some of my friends, they d be like, I just I woke up.
6
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How do you know you didn t just wake up?
6
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Right.
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How do you know you re awake in a dream?
6
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So you have to prove you re asleep through the whole time.
6
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Because otherwise, you might just wake up and say, yeah, I m lucid dreaming, and then fall back asleep, right?
6
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So some essential questions to be asked.
6
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So the electrical measurements or the stickers on the head, the sleep spindles is a certain spike that proves you re asleep.
6
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You can t fake being asleep to the EKG of your mind, if you will, right?
6
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The EKG of your head.
6
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And then
6
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You know, they started communicating with them.
6
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They ll say certain things and they ll come up with this technique called left, right, left, right.
6
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And they ll move their eyeballs left, right, left, right, answer simple questions.
6
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And that s progressed to some people being able to demonstrate when they enter, when lucidity arrives within their dream, they will signal
6
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to the people standing outside the window.
6
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And so there are these back and forth experiments going on.
6
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So far as even basic things like, oh, what s 2 plus 2?
6
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And they ll try to do a left, right, left, right four times.
6
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And some of you might say, well, I thought you couldn t do math.
6
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But that s part of the magic and the mystery of lucid dreaming, is that the executive network is coming back online a little bit.
6
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So for that awareness to happen inside your dream, proven by sleep spindles on a EEG you can t fake, when the awareness comes back,
6
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That primer we re talking about, the executive network, comes back, too.
6
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So they can do a little bit of basic math.
6
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So it s like when you talked about in the beginning, what is it called?
6
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Like 49, 51?
6
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Yeah.
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So where is that?
6
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When the lucid dreaming is happening, what is happening?
6
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Is it kind of rocking back and forth like this constantly?
6
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Or is it one side, and then it goes back?
6
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That s a good question.
6
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It s fragile.
6
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That s a very good question.
6
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So you ve gone from waking brain to dreaming brain.
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And what happens is a little bit of the waking brain returns, but a little flourishes.
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It s not like, hey, I m lucid dreaming.
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I got 90 minutes.
6
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Let s ride this.
6
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I get it.
6
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Somebody might be able to, but I want to leave you with the fascination.
6
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These overlap states, which are really fascinating, sleep entry, sleep exit, a bit of awareness returning within proven sleep, that it s something fragile, it s something fleeting.
6
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Think of like birds and murmurations and aurora borealis, we re not talking about.
6
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And that s also the lesson for people who are listening is, stop thinking that your brain is wires and on and off.
6
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Think of it as dreaming brain, waking brain, waking brain, dreaming brain.
6
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Think of it as executive network mostly interacting here, a little bit of imagination network returning because I m daydreaming while we re talking, a little bit of blend, right?
6
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Well, lucid dreaming is coming to awareness that you re dreaming within your dream, and for some people, being able to steer the content of their dream.
6
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That s crazy.
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Stuff like Christopher Nolan likes to talk about in his movies and stuff like that.
6
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But what I m here to tell you is it exists.
6
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They have proven that it exists.
6
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I m not saying you lucid dream.
6
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I have not.
6
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Aristotle wrote about it.
6
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But they have proven with responses from preserved eyeball movements
6
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documentation that that person is asleep, with the electricity of sleep, that they have been able to communicate with people who are in dreams.
6
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It s crazy that they can steer their dreams.
6
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That s what they report.
6
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Isn t that crazy?
6
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Yeah.
6
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But if you step back a little bit and stop thinking of it as the brain on, off, wired, hardwired.
6
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If you start to think of it as states,
6
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as tides, as flows, as seasons and every night there s the waking brain and dreaming brain and there s
7
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sleep entry and their sleep exit and sometimes lucidity returns, it starts to make sense of a lot of the stuff I ve been seeing in the hospital.
7
SPEAKER_00
Really?
7
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Well, I mean, people wake up from anesthesia, they re supposed to, people are awake during, they communicate in anesthesia during our awake brain surgery.
7
SPEAKER_00
Really?
7
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And people wake up and they re dreaming gnarly stuff.
7
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you can give people certain medicines and they have more lucid dreaming, something based on acetylcholamine.
7
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The reports of lucid dreaming go up with galantamine.
7
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So what that tells me, not to get too medically about it, is that when you mess with pills and drugs and the dreams change, like this is a biological process.
7
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Wow.
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It s not coming from the heavens.
7
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It s coming from our brain.
7
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Really?
7
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Yeah.
7
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Speaking of the heavens, when we dream,
7
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Are our dreams in our brain or in our minds?
7
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And is our mind on this earth and planet, or is it in another realm?
7
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Big stuff, man.
7
SPEAKER_01
We could be like around a fire 500 years ago asking.
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3 AM, you know.
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Yeah, or yeah.
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I mean, that s why this is so special for me is that.
7
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And you may not have the answer.
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No, I mean, I have some direction to those questions.
7
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I mean, just the fact that you re asking me that question means I m doing all right.
7
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But I am fortunate to have people ask me just to weigh in on that.
7
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And what I m trying to do is build it on science, but bring it to you in a way where you can go home and talk to your family about it.
7
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What is your thoughts on that?
7
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So the first thing is the brain and mind thing can t be separated.
7
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It s not like software hardware.
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The brain, that s a whole big topic, but the mind is an emergent phenomenon that comes from the brain.
7
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One example would be, we see it, the crystals form.
7
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We see it in organic matter, right?
7
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It s a self-organizing thing.
7
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Termites can make mounds.
7
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Stadiums with a roar outside is more than the 80,000 individuals inside.
7
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That roar is my best way of understanding.
7
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what 100 billion neurons do, the mind comes from it.
7
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Wow.
7
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Now, what we think can go back and shape the brain.
7
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So it s a reciprocal interaction.
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Our habits can shape the brain.
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Our brain creates the habits.
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So the brain-mind, I don t think you can really separate it out.
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The ultimate gift of the human mind, I think, is dreaming.
7
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Love and all those things, yes, but the process of dreaming.
7
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So let s for one second say we re talking about brain and mind as one thing, okay?
7
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We ll just call it brain slash mind.
7
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And I was reading about this.
7
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Oh, this is great.
7
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Here s a story.
7
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Of course they had to come from the heavens, our understanding, about 100 years ago.
7
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You plop down,
7
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You re not doing anything.
7
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And then you wake up, and whether you tell somebody or not, you re like, man, I was on fire last night with my thoughts.
7
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So if you re asleep, and you re hibernating, or you re deactivated, or whatever the phrase was, it had to come from something external.
7
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It s in there.
7
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How could inactive flesh of the brain, the resting brain, the brain doesn t rest at night.
7
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It s active.
7
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The brain rests when you re dead.
7
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Right.
7
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There s no, like I said, the electricity in sleep is so similar to the electricity during waking, they call it paradoxical sleep.
7
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Like you re on when you re asleep, okay?
7
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But they didn t know that.
7
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Nobody could know that until, this is a great story.
7
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I don t think it s been told, but it s the story that I ve come to understand.
7
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So that makes sense.
7
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It had to come from something outside of us.
7
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You re out cold.
7
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And you re thinking, that kind of stuff?
7
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Monsters and pterodactyls and erotic dreams and nightmares?
7
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OK, so that came from the heavens or the gods.
7
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They re omens.
7
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But what happened was somebody, about 100 years ago, did a surgery for a brain tumor.
7
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And then there was a physician there.
7
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And they had just figured out at that time that you could put a wire.
7
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It wasn t just for sending electricity.
7
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It was for measuring it.
7
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So when you put a sticker on your heart and you know the electricity of a heart, right?
7
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It s from the nerves on the surface of the heart.
7
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It s not from the muscle.
7
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EKG is the measurement of the electricity in the nerves on top of your heart.
7
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When we shock you to recharge your heart, we re just shocking the three nerves, not the muscle.
7
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Muscle just listens.
7
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Well, what if you put 96 stickers on your brain?
7
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You would get a measurement that s called EEG.
7
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What he did was he put a sticker right on top of the hole.
7
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The skull had a hole, but the stitch work, the flesh was covered.
7
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We do that still sometimes.
7
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But in that area where there was no skull but the size of a coin, he put a little sticker on there, a little wire.
7
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On the brain?
7
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No, on the surface.
7
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Or just on the skull.
7
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Yeah.
7
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But there was a hole.
7
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Surgeons do it on the brain, but... There was a hole, so when... And healed flesh.
7
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And put it just on top of the flesh with a hole underneath.
7
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He thought he s gonna get better readout, I guess, right?
7
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The hole that would be a direct line to the brain.
7
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Yes.
7
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But not touching the brain.
7
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Well said.
7
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Got it.
7
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And then he got squiggles.
7
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And that was where the EEG was invented about 100 years ago.
7
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The interesting part was when they all left the room or whatever they were doing and the person fell asleep, nobody paid attention to it, but the squiggles were happening at night.
7
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It wasn t squiggles during the day and a flat line at night.
7
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So somebody could have said at that point, like, wait a second, that flesh is not inactive.
7
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Then 60 years ago, somebody in Montreal, Dr. Penfield,
7
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He was, so now he s numbing up the scalp.
7
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Laying it open patient is on Relaxing medications, but not on a machine Drills the hole like ice fishing takes it off Sees the covering of the brain called the dura incises it the surface of the brain is there and then they lighten up her medication He s got like a little fountain pen that delivers little electricity and he s mapping it and He s trying to find the thing
7
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The patient has seizures and says, before the seizure, I always get this feeling, this aura.
7
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He thinks if he can find where that feeling originates, dissect out a little bit of that tissue, he can break the seizures.
7
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He ended up being right.
7
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It s a massive field now.
7
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Imagine major centers around the world, seizure surgery.
7
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But at some times, when he would zap, because he s marking, you know, the patient reports desire.
7
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and one patient reported a recurrent nightmare that they had been having.
7
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Interesting.
7
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You zap the surface of the brain with a little faint electricity.
7
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The brain doesn t have nerve endings of its own, so you can touch it and you wouldn t know.
7
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Wouldn t feel it.
7
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Not you, but this is known, and I ve done the surgery, this is established stuff.
7
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Awake brain surgery, you can cut the brain.
7
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You won t feel the pain.
7
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No.
7
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It only feels through its tentacles.
7
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So when you re doing an awake brain surgery... Only the scalp feels it, but we numb it up.
7
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The patient is awake, and you re in there, and they can talk to you.
7
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And you can dissect the brain, and they don t feel a thing.
7
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Is this the one where... I mean, you see the videos of, like, I guess... Yeah, with a guy playing guitar.
7
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...violin or guitar, where it s like, okay, you know, connecting.
7
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It s so crazy.
7
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But when he was mapping it, a nightmare, which is a type of dream, was returned, and he took the pen off.
7
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Nightmare broke.
7
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Wow.
7
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At that moment, we knew that dreams, the only thing I can say with certainty today, is dreams come from our brain.
7
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They do not come from the heavens.
7
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Wow.
7
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That I can say with certainty.
7
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Everything else...
7
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This has just been a fascinating ride.
7
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And the ride will continue.
7
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But that we can say with certain.
7
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Dreams are an electrical process of the human brain.
7
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When you ve done brain surgeries, have you noticed people six months later saying, I used to have this type of dream, and now those are gone, or I have these different dreams now, after brain surgery?
7
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That s a good question.
7
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A lot of dreaming changes.
7
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Very good question.
7
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And I ve tried to keep the medical world out of it, even though it informs dreaming quite a bit.
7
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But the patterns I saw from like drug dreams, anesthetic dreams are just, I couldn t find a way.
7
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And that s also, again, to let you know, like, if it didn t fit, if there wasn t a,
7
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If it wasn t gonna be a thoughtful love letter to dreams and dreaming, I ll tell you, and I ll tell you, I can t, the pattern of dreams that happen with anesthetics and stuff, I can t say, aha, this one causes this and this could mean, I can t find meaning in it, it s that wild.
7
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The ones that you re seeing here,
7
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I feel good about.
7
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But patients with brain injury, brain surgery, on medications, on steroids for swelling,
8
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their dreams change completely.
8
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There s a brand new dream life.
8
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And what it says to me is, again, dreams come from the brain.
8
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If you take a pill that goes in your blood, to your brain, chemical.
8
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Chemicals change, which create different dreams.
8
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Yeah.
8
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Interesting.
8
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That s yet another example of dreams must come from the brain.
8
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Interesting.
8
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Yeah.
8
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Not from some other realm.
8
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Right.
8
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Pineal gland.
8
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You hear a lot of this in, you know, ancient texts and mystics and meditators and yogis talking about the pineal gland, like the power of the pineal gland to activate the mind and the brain and create more powerful visions.
8
SPEAKER_01
And I m happy to get into all of these things.
8
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Like aura is a thing.
8
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A-U-R-A.
8
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People look it up.
8
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That s it.
8
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That s a hunch.
8
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So I m not...
8
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I think a lot of this stuff is real, I just think it s muddy and it s easy to manipulate.
8
SPEAKER_01
So I would say be careful.
8
SPEAKER_01
So the pineal gland has been, because of its location, people thought it s the mind s eye, philosophers have commented about it.
8
SPEAKER_01
What I can tell you
8
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is... As a brain surgeon, what is it for you?
8
SPEAKER_01
I can take it out and the person is exactly the same.
8
SPEAKER_01
Really?
8
SPEAKER_01
Mm-hmm.
8
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Pineal gland surgery, pineal, pineal cytomas, pineal gland.
8
SPEAKER_00
Have you ever taken one out?
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
You ve taken... It s part of neurosurgery.
8
SPEAKER_01
You ve taken one out of a... Yeah, you come in through the back here, it sits between the lobes.
8
SPEAKER_01
So people can look that up, is pineal gland, or it s a gland, whether it s got cancer in it, or whether it s just a cyst, non-cancerous, but growing and pushing,
8
SPEAKER_01
Whether it s normal pineal or abnormal, when you remove it, they have almost no significant consequences.
8
SPEAKER_01
Really?
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
And the melatonin is bottomed out, and they still sleep okay.
8
SPEAKER_01
So I m not here to go against the whole world of things that are out there.
8
SPEAKER_01
But again, if we re having a conversation, you come into my house, we re hanging out, we re taking a walk, and you ask me that question, I m trying to come to you both with things I can t make sense of, anesthetic dreams, pineal gland.
8
SPEAKER_01
No, they re being removed across the world.
8
SPEAKER_01
and there isn t the pituitary gland.
8
SPEAKER_01
If you take that out, you gotta take a bunch of hormones and medicine.
8
SPEAKER_01
That s a big deal.
8
SPEAKER_01
Interesting.
8
SPEAKER_01
The pineal gland, the ones that has been given sort of this transcendent value, that comes out and goes in the canister.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s fine.
8
SPEAKER_01
And the next day, we don t change the stuff the patient s on.
8
SPEAKER_01
They don t need some replacement thing.
8
SPEAKER_01
And it makes melatonin, and I wrote about it in my last book, when the melatonin drops to zero or nothing,
8
SPEAKER_01
they re still sleeping all right.
8
SPEAKER_01
Really?
8
SPEAKER_01
I m not going to say don t take melatonin or take melatonin.
8
SPEAKER_01
We re not doing health advice.
8
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I don t mean like you can t go there, but.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
Where I m at is concepts, exploration.
8
SPEAKER_00
And what about, and does the pineal gland impact dreams or dreaming?
8
SPEAKER_00
Do you know?
8
SPEAKER_00
After you remove it, people still dream?
8
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t have those kinds of connections.
8
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
8
SPEAKER_01
Back to the dreaming.
8
SPEAKER_01
When I talked to you about like if the brain was laid flat and different continents and countries are up,
8
SPEAKER_01
The imagination network liberated in the dreaming brain.
8
SPEAKER_01
Different countries and continents and oceans are up for the executive network trying to get the day s work done.
8
SPEAKER_01
The, the, the pineal is like, it s irrelevant in that map of things that come up when you sleep.
8
SPEAKER_01
Huh?
8
SPEAKER_01
That thing that goes 51% when you sleep, pineal glands.
8
SPEAKER_01
Not even a bench warmer.
8
SPEAKER_00
What s the.
8
SPEAKER_00
What s the primary purpose of the pineal gland?
8
SPEAKER_00
We don t think it has a primary purpose.
8
SPEAKER_01
I know.
8
SPEAKER_01
We can look it up, but there are parts of the body, it s like the appendix of the brain.
8
SPEAKER_01
We can remove it and it doesn t change much.
8
SPEAKER_01
And people still live long lives.
8
SPEAKER_01
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
You don t have to... What part of the brain, if you remove it, is going to be, you re not going to be able to perform the same way?
8
SPEAKER_01
Well, okay, that s a bigger concept, so.
8
SPEAKER_00
And how much of the brain can you still have?
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
Can you remove or have left to still live a great life?
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so let s take that.
8
SPEAKER_01
That s an interesting question.
8
SPEAKER_01
If you think of the brain laid flat as different continents and countries, right?
8
SPEAKER_01
It s like a mosaic, it s like a puzzle.
8
SPEAKER_01
If you cut out half of the continent.
8
SPEAKER_01
Well, we do surgeries in children where we remove half the brain, hemispherectomy.
8
SPEAKER_00
Half?
8
SPEAKER_00
Half the brain.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
Not the reptilian, and not the emotional instinct, but half the hemisphere, the two walnut.
8
SPEAKER_01
So what that points to is this.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s what we call some areas, you bump into it with a suction at 20x, and it leads to a change.
8
SPEAKER_01
Some areas, nail gun injuries happen, and you take out that part of the brain.
8
SPEAKER_01
You know, like framers, they use the pneumatic nail guns, and when they kick up a little higher, they ll spray a nail through the thin floor of the... Right here.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
This part of neurosurgery is taking out the penetrator.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s called penetrating trauma.
8
SPEAKER_01
Depending on where it goes, they can handle a nail in one frontal lobe or the other.
8
SPEAKER_01
But hitting both frontal lobes, it changes a person.
8
SPEAKER_01
So some areas have redundancy.
8
SPEAKER_01
Other areas can t take a joke.
8
SPEAKER_01
Some areas, you could take one occipital lobe, and you basically just lose your rear view mirror.
8
SPEAKER_01
You don t lose sight.
8
SPEAKER_01
But if you take both or injure both, so there s
8
SPEAKER_01
That s what neurosurgery is about, is knowing what you can go through, what to expect in the person waking up after you do that.
8
SPEAKER_01
That s neurosurgery.
8
SPEAKER_01
But it also informs that we have to stop looking at the brain as some homogenous thing.
8
SPEAKER_01
that you return to like a slice through and you ll see all different shapes in there.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s not like, it s not like cake.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s not like flour.
8
SPEAKER_01
Like liver, it looks the same.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
This is brain is diverse.
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
Structures and connections in there.
8
SPEAKER_00
It s beautiful.
8
SPEAKER_00
So, I mean, how many people have you seen have a nail gun like in their brain?
8
SPEAKER_00
Six.
8
SPEAKER_01
When I was training, yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
Really?
8
SPEAKER_01
Gunshot wounds, nail gun injuries, fights, you know, but so you learn with trauma.
8
SPEAKER_01
what parts of the brain can handle trauma.
8
SPEAKER_00
Because you re not doing those types of surgeries, you re doing cancer removal.
8
SPEAKER_01
Right, but that informs me if I m getting to a deeper tumor and it s inside and it s got a normal brain on the outside, that has informed me along with mapping.
8
SPEAKER_01
What is the route that I can get to the tumor?
8
SPEAKER_01
This is fascinating.
8
SPEAKER_01
But not injure the person.
8
SPEAKER_01
That s neurosurgery.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s not the chopsticks in a jar.
8
SPEAKER_01
The hands, it requires skill.
8
SPEAKER_01
But there s something more to it that I love.
8
SPEAKER_01
And the stories from the patients
8
SPEAKER_01
informed last decade and a half and still are informing this book.
8
SPEAKER_01
And so it s the patient stories and the neuroscience on top of the nail gun.
8
SPEAKER_01
And that s what we opened with.
8
SPEAKER_01
Look, I m trying to come at you with like Petri dish stuff, nail gun stuff.
8
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
8
SPEAKER_01
Heavens networks.
8
SPEAKER_01
I m trying to bring it all in, um, to, to have done a real proper look at dreams and dreaming.
8
SPEAKER_00
This is why you dream, Dr. Rahul.
8
SPEAKER_00
This is powerful.
8
SPEAKER_00
I want to do a two-part with you because I feel like there s so many more questions I want to dive into that we ve gone like 5% of what I want to talk about.
8
SPEAKER_00
But I want people to get this book because I think this would be a great...
8
SPEAKER_00
baseline for you to understand a lot more about the neuroscience and the remarkable meaning behind your dreams, understanding your dreams better, and having a better roadmap for navigating your dreams for the future.
8
SPEAKER_00
But I d love to have you come back on and do part two of this.
8
SPEAKER_00
I think it d be really powerful.
8
SPEAKER_01
Well, I think you said something really important there.
8
SPEAKER_01
In trying to understand Dreams and Dreaming, I understood myself better.
8
SPEAKER_01
If you read this book and you find something interesting,
8
SPEAKER_01
learning more about your brain and mind will inform your waking life.
8
SPEAKER_01
So then when people say, the brain is this, you ll say, wait a second, because you re going to walk away learning about neuroscience.
8
SPEAKER_01
You re going to walk away learning about art and literature, nightmares, erotic dreams.
8
SPEAKER_01
And more importantly,
8
SPEAKER_01
You know for me.
8
SPEAKER_01
It was it s sort of my It s my gift This is my legacy that yes Somebody tried to put together something that like how somebody gonna do it and take a proper shot at this and I m very happy with
8
SPEAKER_01
the honesty there, and you ll see phrases like, could it be, I wonder, I m tempted to speculate.
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So I m not just telling you, I m taking you through how I m thinking, and so, you know.
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How long have you been a brain surgeon for now?
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Wow, 25 years.
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25 years.
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And what it sounds like is you ve had 25 years plus your residency, so call it 30 plus years of researching the brain and as a PhD in neuroscience and understanding the mind.
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When you first came on, you talked about the brain as kind of these waves and patterns.
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I remember you talking about like birds moving in waves and patterns.
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The electricity does move like that.
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It s not on-off.
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Exactly.
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It s not a switch.
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And to me, it sounds like the last 30 years, you ve been able to interpret these waves and patterns through all the different operations you ve done, through the different case studies you ve seen of people coming in before and after, and now deepening your research.
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in understanding the brain, the mind, with dreaming.
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And so, I m so excited for people to get this book, This Is Why You Dream.
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And I m excited to dive in more with you.
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I think we gotta do probably multiple episodes on this because I m fascinated by this.
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I wanna know more about how also, you know, the health benefits of dreaming, how much we should be sleeping to maximize our dreams and our optimal health.
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And so many other questions around this.
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If you guys have a question on Dreams, leave a question below, and we ll try to get to that in our next episode in the future, whenever we can get you back on.
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Pleasure.
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But Rahul, this has been super inspiring.
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How can we get a copy?
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How can we support you?
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And what else can we do to support this?
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Yeah, I m feeling good about it.
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You know, I think the usual things, where to get a copy on Amazon or where the publishers are just doing a massive thing.
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They sold it.
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It s already picked up in 22 translations.
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I think they believe in it.
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And they ve been reading this material and the two things that really touched me were
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This can never be explained.
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Like, you know, cause I, I m a surgeon.
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I want answers.
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I want to fix, but they re like, this can, it s dreaming, Rahul.
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It ll never be fully explained.
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We want to know what you think and pull from everything you ve lived through.
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It s amazing.
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And then the, and then the New York publisher just was like this email.
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And it was just the first sentence just took my breath away a little book, a little bit.
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There was,
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They just put, this book is important, period.
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That s a mic drop moment for me.
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I m excited for this.
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Where are you spending most of your time online?
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Should we follow you on social media, your website?
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Instagram, Dr. John DeAll, but I m an old timer, man.
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Dr. John DeAll.
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You re a young old timer, right?
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You re still young.
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Do you have a website also, though?
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No, but you know, I mean... Instagram.
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Yeah, Instagram.
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Follow you there and get the book.
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This is going to be powerful.
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For anyone that you know in your life who maybe talks about dreams, they re going to be fascinated by this as well.
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So get a couple copies, give it to a friend.
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Again, Rahul, I m very excited about this.
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This is Why You Dream.
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Make sure you guys get a copy.
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Appreciate you very much for being on and for part one of hopefully many on this topic because there s so many more follow-up questions I have.
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But I want to let people start with this first, so.
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We could take each chapter deeper.
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Let s do it.
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I appreciate you being here.
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I hope you enjoyed today s episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness.
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Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today s episode with all the important links.
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And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel
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exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
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Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well.
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Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review.
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I really love hearing feedback from you, and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward.
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And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.
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And now, it s time to go out there and do something great.