0
SPEAKER_01
 One thing I would tell people is don't shame your triggers.
0
SPEAKER_01
Because I think what people say, I don't want to be triggered.
0
SPEAKER_01
I'm like, nah, you know, you don't have that line into your sympathetic nervous system.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's always going to be quicker than you.
0
SPEAKER_01
So because it's always going to be quicker, we have to be aware.
0
SPEAKER_02
 Welcome to the School of Greatness.
0
SPEAKER_02
My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur.
0
SPEAKER_02
And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness.
0
SPEAKER_02
Thanks for spending some time with me today.
0
SPEAKER_02
Now let the class begin.
0
SPEAKER_02
 But we were talking about this beforehand, that this is one of the biggest challenges people face in modern society is understanding and navigating narcissism.
0
SPEAKER_02
How to understand if you're a narcissist, how to understand if there's people in your life who have these tendencies or personality traits, and really how to create healthy boundaries the best way possible.
0
SPEAKER_02
First thing I want to talk about with you is because the previous one, we kind of went through unpacking what a narcissist is.
0
SPEAKER_02
 the different types of narcissism and how to spot it and how to see it.
0
SPEAKER_02
And I think a lot of people went through breakups since then.
0
SPEAKER_02
A lot of people probably ended relationships that they realized were very toxic and unhealthy and not a vision for what they wanted in their life.
0
SPEAKER_02
And so for people, the first question I would ask you, for people who have ended relationships with a narcissist or narcissistic personalities,
0
SPEAKER_02
 What's the best way for them to enter a new relationship without PTSD or without the remnants of, are they going to lash out at me?
0
SPEAKER_02
Are they going to gaslight me?
0
SPEAKER_02
Are they going to do these things that I've experienced in the past?
0
SPEAKER_02
What's the best way to overcome that and enter a new relationship without bringing that baggage in the new one?
0
SPEAKER_01
When I work with survivors in my practice and when I speak to them in a subscription, like a sort of healing program I've got that people come every month,
0
SPEAKER_01
 And one thing I say is you got a way to beat.
0
SPEAKER_01
The temptation is I'm going to throw myself into a new relationship as a palate cleanser.
0
SPEAKER_01
I'm like, you know what, sit with that dirty palate for a minute because you need to do this work in you.
0
SPEAKER_01
Because I think the challenge is that when people get into narcissistic relationships or antagonistic or toxic relationships, they don't know what they're dealing with or they're replicating cycles from earlier in their life, right?
0
SPEAKER_01
Or both.
0
SPEAKER_01
 And so what happens is that if you pivot too quickly, you don't get a chance to sort of know you.
0
SPEAKER_01
A narcissistic relationship does such a number on you.
0
SPEAKER_01
You have now been living in someone else's reality, right?
0
SPEAKER_01
People forget, like,
0
SPEAKER_01
 do I like pepperoni pizza or do I enjoy this TV show or what temperature do I want the house at?
0
SPEAKER_01
Like you literally lose sight of your own subjective sense of who you are.
0
SPEAKER_01
You lose sense of reality and your own perception of things.
0
SPEAKER_01
You just lose it all because you literally have been living in psychological servitude to this other person.
0
SPEAKER_01
So I tell people, listen, my gold standard is a year.
0
SPEAKER_01
 Give yourself a year, which I know is not a short period of time.
0
SPEAKER_01
I'm like, you know what?
0
SPEAKER_01
Take care of your own business, but a year.
0
SPEAKER_01
I understand that feels like a long time, but here's the thing.
0
SPEAKER_01
These relationships get so much into someone's head that in a year a person can re-coalesce.
0
SPEAKER_01
 and they can unpack it and they can start putting down some of the rumination.
0
SPEAKER_01
You certainly don't want to do that in a new relationship, right?
0
SPEAKER_02
You don't want to bring that.
0
SPEAKER_01
You don't want to bring that in and you can also learn what you like, what you don't like so that when somebody encroaches on that and says,
0
SPEAKER_01
 They say something contemptuous, it's like, ugh, who eats that?
0
SPEAKER_01
And say, okay, this is not, this is not okay, I'm not doing this again.
0
SPEAKER_01
You can start recognizing those patterns of what just doesn't feel right.
0
SPEAKER_01
But if you roll right into it, it's almost like a recreation of the old cycle.
0
SPEAKER_01
You need that separation.
0
SPEAKER_01
You need a break from anniversary dates.
0
SPEAKER_01
You need to have that first birthday alone, their first birthday alone, the holidays you do, the vacations you take.
0
SPEAKER_01
You've gotta go live a life without them.
0
SPEAKER_01
And once you, because otherwise you're so,
0
SPEAKER_01
 Again, you might get caught up in someone else's sort of whole toxic bomb storm.
0
SPEAKER_01
Now, I know a lot of people say a year just feels too long.
0
SPEAKER_01
I'm like, I got you.
0
SPEAKER_01
I get it.
0
SPEAKER_01
A year is optimal.
0
SPEAKER_01
And the folks who've done it said, I don't regret doing that at all now.
0
SPEAKER_01
But for a lot of people, it might even be eight months, nine months.
0
SPEAKER_01
 But there's a moment, Louis, after a narcissistic relationship where a person will look up as they go to bed that night and say, oh my God, I didn't think of them once today.
0
SPEAKER_01
That's a good day.
0
SPEAKER_02
 That's an amazing day.
0
SPEAKER_01
And I want not just one of those, I want a person to have a month of those, a while of those where they're just, you know, sure something might remind them or something, but not that like, what are they doing?
0
SPEAKER_01
What are they up to?
0
SPEAKER_01
Almost to the point where you've detached, it might even be a moderate indifference, like, oh, whatever, you know, let them do them.
0
SPEAKER_02
 It doesn't, like, trigger you.
0
SPEAKER_01
It doesn't set you off in the same way.
0
SPEAKER_01
But I do caution people.
0
SPEAKER_01
Depending on the severity of the narcissistic relationship, sometimes people will report feeling those echoes years down the line, even if they've fallen in love with someone else.
0
SPEAKER_01
And someone will say, is that mean I'm not over them?
0
SPEAKER_01
Not at all.
0
SPEAKER_01
It means that the way the trauma systems in the mind and the body hold on to information, it means that anything that reminds you of that can still activate you.
0
SPEAKER_01
I've been through this, and I got to tell you,
0
SPEAKER_01
 To this day, I think if I saw some of the people who harmed me in the past, I can think of a few.
0
SPEAKER_00
You'd have a response.
0
SPEAKER_01
Oh my gosh, beyond a response.
0
SPEAKER_01
I actually think I would have to, it would be akin to panic.
0
SPEAKER_01
And I honestly do not care what happens to those people, but if I saw them, it would be really upsetting for me.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's not that I'm not over it, it's just that my nervous system is in danger of death.
0
SPEAKER_01
Get away from this experience, yeah.
0
SPEAKER_02
Interesting.
0
SPEAKER_02
 Wow.
0
SPEAKER_02
So the optimal is nine months to a year, but it's really more like taking the temperature of allowing your nervous system to heal.
0
SPEAKER_02
See if you can have a few days in a row and a month in a row where you're not thinking about that person or it's not triggering you consistently before you enter into a new relationship.
0
SPEAKER_01
And that you're clearer on who you are.
0
SPEAKER_01
 Because in a narcissistic relationship, you're defined by the relationship.
0
SPEAKER_01
Are they happy today?
0
SPEAKER_01
Are we having a good day?
0
SPEAKER_01
Are they happy with their lives?
0
SPEAKER_01
Everything is about them, right?
0
SPEAKER_01
So now, for the first time, you make things be about you.
0
SPEAKER_01
Like, I'm good.
0
SPEAKER_01
Like, no, I want to pursue this job.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, no, I'm moving to New York.
0
SPEAKER_01
And not like, oh, is this going to work?
0
SPEAKER_01
 You, for a minute, you.
0
SPEAKER_01
And when you meet your person, capital P, and it's healthy, they might say like, ah, you know what, for about six months we could do this long distance, or I can work remotely, I'll come to New York, we'll figure it out.
0
SPEAKER_01
You'll start to see that there's a possibility for compromise.
0
SPEAKER_01
But I do think that a lot of people after a narcissistic relationship, their trip wire is a bit more sensitive.
0
SPEAKER_01
And they may throw back a few fish that are big enough to keep, and that's okay.
0
SPEAKER_01
 I'd rather that people overcorrect than undercorrect.
0
SPEAKER_01
And they might say, am I, and this is where, again, when I work with clients, they'll say, am I being too intense about this?
0
SPEAKER_01
Is this too big an ask?
0
SPEAKER_01
Nine times out of 10, Lewis, it's not too big.
0
SPEAKER_01
Like, they're right on point with the thing they're sensing feels red flaggy to them or doesn't feel comfortable or something isn't sitting well, and I'm teaching people, listen to that.
0
SPEAKER_02
It's so funny you're saying this because when I got into my relationship with Martha, my girlfriend now,
0
SPEAKER_02
 In the beginning, I was like, listen, part of, I think I specifically said to her, like, I kind of want you to run away from me because I want to be so authentically myself.
0
SPEAKER_02
 that it either draws you into me because you accept and receive who I am or it kind of repels you away from me of like my truth and my vision and my mission and who I am in this world and my being, what I want to create in this life.
0
SPEAKER_02
Because I think I gave in so much in previous relationships to please others and to change who I was and morph to make sure that they were okay and happy, which is all my responsibility for doing that.
0
SPEAKER_02
 But I was like, I'm not changing who I am just to make one person happy.
0
SPEAKER_00
This is who I am.
0
SPEAKER_02
If you wanna hang out and be friends and see where it goes, cool.
0
SPEAKER_02
If not, that's cool too.
0
SPEAKER_02
But I'm not going to change myself to try to get you to like me and make you constantly happy.
0
SPEAKER_02
Or any time you're upset at me for doing something, I'm gonna stop doing it just to make you happy and be an edge.
0
SPEAKER_02
 And I'm so glad that I did that.
0
SPEAKER_02
Part of me was like, probably some PTSD in the beginning where I was like, I'm just doing this to protect myself.
0
SPEAKER_02
Because I'd rather be single than get into a relationship that's unhealthy.
0
SPEAKER_01
And that's the key, right?
0
SPEAKER_01
I'd rather be single than get into a relationship that's unhealthy.
0
SPEAKER_01
And that's what people are afraid of.
0
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I was like, I'll be single the rest of my life if it means I'm not going to be in this type of relationships that I've been in the previous.
0
SPEAKER_02
 And it's creating a new standard for myself, you know, what I'll allow in and what I want to allow What boundaries I'll create and and making sure that it's in alignment with my partner as well And I'm glad I did that even though in the beginning she's like you might add a little PTSD still from the trip I'm kind of glad that I came with that
0
SPEAKER_02
 I would call it, I was very courageous in my communication about this is my truth.
0
SPEAKER_02
And it may scare you away.
0
SPEAKER_02
And I have to be okay if you're not accepting it.
0
SPEAKER_02
I have to be okay if you don't like me.
0
SPEAKER_02
 And here's like an amazing woman that may not want to be with me and I have to be okay with that.
0
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
0
SPEAKER_02
But it's not giving in anymore.
0
SPEAKER_01
Right.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's not giving in and I think that that's the key.
0
SPEAKER_02
Yeah and it was a beautiful experiment for me entering a relationship that way by being honest about this is who I am, this is my values, this is my vision, this is what I'm aligned to and what I'm not aligned to.
0
SPEAKER_02
 If this is something you want to explore then let's keep dating and exploring it and seeing how it goes And I think that was a was a beautiful experience for me to witness the receiving of that on the other side and just being Consistent with my word, you know, this is what I want.
0
SPEAKER_02
This is what I not want and being in that place But um, how can we make sure but in the beginning I'll probably say there was a little PTSD remnants of it How can we make sure we don't bring in that?
0
SPEAKER_02
 energy?
0
SPEAKER_02
Is it just waiting for a year and nine months and doing the work on the healing process?
0
SPEAKER_02
But how do we not bring any of that past relationship into new relationships?
0
SPEAKER_01
When you say bring that past relationship into new relationships, what do you think that looks like?
0
SPEAKER_01
What do you mean by that?
0
SPEAKER_02
The traumas of the past relationship, the trigger responses, the, you know, things that you did in previous relationships to protect yourself.
0
SPEAKER_02
How do you continue to keep an open heart and open minds and not go back into the default?
0
SPEAKER_01
 Right, so one thing I would tell people is don't shame your triggers.
0
SPEAKER_01
Because I think when people say, I don't want to be triggered, I'm like, nah, you don't have that line into your sympathetic nervous system.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's always going to be quicker than you.
0
SPEAKER_01
So because it's always going to be quicker, we have to be aware.
0
SPEAKER_01
For example, sometimes we even feel it.
0
SPEAKER_01
I know that for people in a relationship, something will happen.
0
SPEAKER_01
They'll hear something, and they'll feel that tightness in their chest, that funniness in their gut, right?
0
SPEAKER_01
 The key then becomes is to say, okay, I am uncomfortable.
0
SPEAKER_01
Let me hear through that.
0
SPEAKER_01
That's where the mindfulness, you almost got to try to punch through that.
0
SPEAKER_01
Let me be present with what they're saying, even though, you know, it's almost like trying to listen to someone in a noisy bar at that point.
0
SPEAKER_01
You know, when you lean in, you're like, okay, I'm
0
SPEAKER_01
 I'm fully concentrating on what this person is saying because it's chaos around me.
0
SPEAKER_01
So that chaos, that sympathetic nervous system turning on is like the noise in a bar.
0
SPEAKER_01
So now you're really leaning in, you're looking at them.
0
SPEAKER_01
I know when I have that response, I literally watch their mouth because I'm like, okay, I can shape out the words and it almost gives me a totally mindful space to watch them shape the words.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's almost like you can think of it in a movie when they go right to someone's mouth.
0
SPEAKER_01
 paying attention to what they're saying because the danger of the trigger is that we don't hear, right?
0
SPEAKER_01
So it's to be aware.
0
SPEAKER_01
We're in defense mode right away, right?
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, we're in freeze mode.
0
SPEAKER_01
Our eyes become wide the whole nine yards.
0
SPEAKER_01
We feel that and then we start to name it and say, ah, I can feel that I'm getting activated like I did before.
0
SPEAKER_01
I've really got to listen.
0
SPEAKER_01
I'm not going to...because we can't...
0
SPEAKER_01
 You're not going to turn that off.
0
SPEAKER_01
That's my point is that people say, I've got to wait till I can turn it off.
0
SPEAKER_01
I'm like, then you're going to be 117 and that's when you're going to start dating again, which I'm sure you're going to be, you know, there's a great dating pool, I'm sure, no doubt.
0
SPEAKER_01
But at that point of the other 117 year olds, but nah.
0
SPEAKER_01
 You can't, otherwise you're forever, then you're still living in service to that relationship.
0
SPEAKER_01
And the whole idea is to no longer live in service to your narcissistic relationship.
0
SPEAKER_02
To the past relationship.
0
SPEAKER_01
To the past relationship.
0
SPEAKER_01
Interesting.
0
SPEAKER_01
So the trigger then becomes, to me, triggers are communication.
0
SPEAKER_01
Your nervous system's saying, whoa, something dangerous is happening, and you're kind of saying, I get it, I need to listen, this is new.
0
SPEAKER_01
Because when you think of what post-traumatic stress is, right, it's a programming.
0
SPEAKER_01
 So, if you use a classical example, I know a person got into an accident on a particular stretch of the freeway, right?
0
SPEAKER_01
So, they avoid that road, right?
0
SPEAKER_01
And let's say then one day the Uber driver takes that road and their heart is racing because that's almost been sort of imprinted in.
0
SPEAKER_01
But you know what?
0
SPEAKER_01
You go down that road enough times, you don't let the racing heart say, I can't go on this road, something terrible is going to happen.
0
SPEAKER_01
 Okay, I'm going to tolerate this.
0
SPEAKER_01
Maybe you have someone in the car with you the first time.
0
SPEAKER_01
So you can't stop living, but you can also hear those triggers happening.
0
SPEAKER_01
And in the new relationship, give yourself permission to communicate, not say like, I'm being triggered and I think you're cheating on me.
0
SPEAKER_01
That might be a little heavy.
0
SPEAKER_01
 and say, you know, I need a minute.
0
SPEAKER_01
I, you know, in my past, X and Y happened.
0
SPEAKER_01
So at these moments, I know it just, it takes me a minute.
0
SPEAKER_01
Can you, it's hard for me.
0
SPEAKER_01
My trust was betrayed.
0
SPEAKER_01
So I'm going to need time to build that trust.
0
SPEAKER_01
I always say that in some ways, people coming out of narcissistic relationships
0
SPEAKER_01
 are at an incredible advantage because if you can really be honest with yourself about saying, I'm going to ask for what I need and if this person ain't going to give it, then maybe this isn't my person and time is a big one.
0
SPEAKER_01
Narcissistic relationships are usually like this, fast, fast, fast, right?
0
SPEAKER_01
Let's do this.
0
SPEAKER_01
We're in love.
0
SPEAKER_01
This is the best thing ever.
0
SPEAKER_01
Let's move in.
0
SPEAKER_01
Let's do this.
0
SPEAKER_01
Let's go to Paris for three years, like whatever kind of over the top stuff.
0
SPEAKER_01
 But time is usually a way that people can build trust.
0
SPEAKER_01
You can see that there's a new way to respond.
0
SPEAKER_01
A loving, kind person will say, we're good.
0
SPEAKER_01
We're going to take this really, really slow if you need that.
0
SPEAKER_01
Because then that's telling you that this person's hearing you on one of many things you need someone in an intimate relationship to do.
0
SPEAKER_01
And maybe because I'm older, I think and say these things is that
0
SPEAKER_01
 you know this forgive me this is going to sound so off color but i'm just going to say it is the um i call it the wiping test i need you to look at this person you know everyone's young and beautiful and dating i want you to fast forward to you're 85 or maybe 90 and you've you snapped a hip or something this person can wipe your ass and be loving about it and if the answer is yes
0
SPEAKER_01
 probably a keeper.
0
SPEAKER_01
But if you think like this person's going to sneer or doesn't want to be in the hospital, no, not your person.
0
SPEAKER_01
And I know that, but if you're really thinking you're going to go the distance with this person, are they going to stay up all night with a kid who has diarrhea?
0
SPEAKER_01
Are they going to wipe your...
0
SPEAKER_01
 Are they going to be okay when things are no longer okay?
0
SPEAKER_01
Because that's where narcissistic relationships fall apart, when real life comes along.
0
SPEAKER_01
So try that wiping test.
0
SPEAKER_01
I'll tell you now, ain't no narcissist in the world going to wipe your ass.
0
SPEAKER_01
I promise you that right now.
0
SPEAKER_02
 Yeah, I think Esther Perel talks about the difference between a love story and a life story.
0
SPEAKER_02
A love partner and a life partner, right?
0
SPEAKER_02
Where it's like you could have romance and adventure and, you know, crazy sex with a love partner, right?
0
SPEAKER_02
But are they going to be a great life partner for you during these times you're talking about?
0
SPEAKER_02
Correct.
0
SPEAKER_02
There's also kind of like the, someone else mentioned this, I can't remember who, the 10,000 meal test.
0
SPEAKER_02
 Do you want to have 10,000 meals with this individual?
0
SPEAKER_02
If every other meal they're exhausting to be around and they're ungrateful and they're gaslighting you or whatever they're doing, do you want 10,000 of these for the rest of your life?
0
SPEAKER_02
Can you imagine sitting down for 10,000 meals with this person?
0
SPEAKER_02
 So that's why a big 10,000 meals life story, you know, all these things I think are great.
0
SPEAKER_02
But I feel like, I'll speak from example.
0
SPEAKER_02
I used to get caught up so much in the passion, the excitement, the chemicals of the early relationship moments, right?
0
SPEAKER_02
And I used to think this is incredible, this feeling, this love, right?
0
SPEAKER_02
 And then six months, nine months, 12 months, it's like you start to unwind and realize, well, what are, do we have the same values?
0
SPEAKER_02
And are we in alignment of what life looks like together and our lifestyle?
0
SPEAKER_02
And then you try to, I tried to make it work, right?
0
SPEAKER_02
So it was always out of alignment from the start.
0
SPEAKER_02
And you mentioned something off camera about, you know, when we find someone who is quote unquote boring,
0
SPEAKER_02
 That's a great sign.
0
SPEAKER_01
Especially for people of histories of trauma.
0
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
0
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I think that for some folks, it's the...
0
SPEAKER_01
 It's the, again, the activation, the trauma bond, the sort of hot and cold is what equals love, that I need to earn love, that I constantly have to feel like I'm running faster and faster on the treadmill, becomes equated with love, that's the love equals chaos kind of thing.
0
SPEAKER_01
So the person where it's kind of like flat, it's not, the flatness though, and I think, I even hate the word boring, whereas as much as it's not volatile.
0
SPEAKER_01
Right, it's calm.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's, yeah.
0
SPEAKER_01
 Those are what long-term relationships look like, but I think people... They want the chaos.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's not even that they want the chaos, it's that chaos equals love.
0
SPEAKER_01
They want love.
0
SPEAKER_01
And so it's a rewriting of that.
0
SPEAKER_01
Love is stable.
0
SPEAKER_02
 Why do people, you know I'm as guilty as anyone in the past for this, why do people feel loved or think it's love when there's explosiveness or there's chaos or there's someone screaming at you and then apologizing and it's just this pattern.
0
SPEAKER_02
Why does that feel like love?
0
SPEAKER_02
Is that because we maybe saw this as a model as our childhood from our parents or why does that?
0
SPEAKER_02
Why do some people feel that's love where others can see that's not healthy, I don't want that.
0
SPEAKER_01
 Well, I mean, part of it goes to this concept of trauma bonding, which is sort of the core of the narcissistic relationship.
0
SPEAKER_01
And in the trauma bond is formed by a relationship that has an alternation of good and bad, hot and cold, high and low.
0
SPEAKER_01
So in a way, you're sort of chasing a high.
0
SPEAKER_01
 Because where there's a bad day, guess what's going to come again?
0
SPEAKER_01
Makeup sex or whatever makeup looks like, right?
0
SPEAKER_01
Because as a kid, what it was was that you'd live for those good days.
0
SPEAKER_01
Despite all the abuse, then there'd be a fishing trip.
0
SPEAKER_01
Despite all those bad days, then your parent would do something, there'd be something so quirky and fun about them.
0
SPEAKER_01
 Or you're like the day they do something good, now you could go back to constructing the narrative that I come from a normal happy family.
0
SPEAKER_01
That is the origination of that trauma bond.
0
SPEAKER_01
But then in order to keep the mindset that the relationship's good, you have to justify, justify, justify.
0
SPEAKER_01
You have to make sense of those bad days to fit the good days.
0
SPEAKER_01
So the justification and the denial become big parts of the trauma bonded theme.
0
SPEAKER_01
 Now obviously that trauma bond is going to play out a lot more powerfully in somebody who has that in their backstory because your entire childhood was wired around how can I get this parent to notice me?
0
SPEAKER_01
How can I be seen?
0
SPEAKER_01
How can I be heard?
0
SPEAKER_01
How can I be cherished?
0
SPEAKER_01
It's about a chase because that child was put in the unfortunate position of believing they had to earn that or even worse their needs were shamed and their parent resented them for having needs
0
SPEAKER_01
 So, they learn, well, if I'm going to be in love, I've got to be quiet, can't bring up my needs.
0
SPEAKER_01
There's going to be bad days, but then there's going to be good days.
0
SPEAKER_01
And those bad days are because, well, maybe I was too demanding, or maybe I'm expecting too much.
0
SPEAKER_01
So, a lot of it becomes self-blame focused, and that becomes a really profound kind of connective tissue.
0
SPEAKER_01
 It's not to say though people who, not everybody who gets into a trauma-bonded relationship has that history.
0
SPEAKER_01
They're by far the people who are going to be more vulnerable.
0
SPEAKER_01
But because narcissism is about such a good front game, right, the charm, the charisma, the love bombing, you feel like you're in something really, really special.
0
SPEAKER_01
But the reason narcissistic relationships are so confusing is because there's enough good days to confuse you.
0
SPEAKER_01
And the good days are good.
0
SPEAKER_01
 I mean, they're really, really good.
0
SPEAKER_00
They're over the top.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, they're over the top, and they sort of feel perfect, and remember- You try to go back to that, right?
0
SPEAKER_01
You go back to it, but the thing we gotta remember is sometimes those good days even stay in there years later.
0
SPEAKER_01
Whatever that moment is, and narcissistic relationships are all about alignment.
0
SPEAKER_01
If they're having a good day, right?
0
SPEAKER_01
Maybe they had a good day at work, or maybe they flirted with someone at the gym.
0
SPEAKER_01
You don't know what it is.
0
SPEAKER_01
 The narcissist.
0
SPEAKER_01
The narcissist.
0
SPEAKER_01
And you happen to have a good day, something good happened to you.
0
SPEAKER_01
And then you're like, they get me and they love me.
0
SPEAKER_01
No, it's just coincidence, a fortunate coincidence.
0
SPEAKER_01
And then, because the narcissist could just as easily have had a bad day, their car got dinged in the parking lot, their friend got the raise and the promotion and they didn't get it.
0
SPEAKER_01
Angry, angry, angry.
0
SPEAKER_01
You had that same good day.
0
SPEAKER_01
 they will invalidate, they will criticize.
0
SPEAKER_01
So it's all about alignment and timing.
0
SPEAKER_01
And that alignment is what makes people say, oh, we have such a great relationship.
0
SPEAKER_01
I'm like, it just sounds like luck.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's like, yeah, it's like you thinking like roulette can be gamed.
0
SPEAKER_01
I'm like, you got lucky on the double zero there.
0
SPEAKER_02
It's so funny you say that.
0
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I'm going to start having flashbacks now and memories like I did in the last interview where I remember a time for a few years, I had this dream of
0
SPEAKER_02
 going to the Olympics.
0
SPEAKER_02
First, it was making the USA national team, so I had the opportunity to go to the Olympics.
0
SPEAKER_00
When you said go to the Olympics, I'm like, to watch, so I see your dreams are up here.
0
SPEAKER_02
No, no.
0
SPEAKER_02
This was 2008.
0
SPEAKER_02
2008, I had surgery playing professional football, broke my wrist.
0
SPEAKER_02
 Had a cast on my arm from here to here for six months in this position Just got it off and the Olympics came on and so I was kind of down in the dumps because I couldn't train I couldn't play football anymore, but I was watching Olympics getting inspired And I see this sport at like 3 a.m.
0
SPEAKER_02
In the morning that I'd never seen before in my life called team handball Oh, yeah, it's not well known in the US, but it's a big sport in Europe.
0
SPEAKER_02
It's kind of like water polo on land on land Yes
0
SPEAKER_02
 with no water.
0
SPEAKER_02
And I watched this and my mind is blown.
0
SPEAKER_02
I'm like, this is incredible.
0
SPEAKER_02
Like, this looks like the sport I should have learned growing up.
0
SPEAKER_02
Like, I'm built for this.
0
SPEAKER_02
I'm the size, I got the speed.
0
SPEAKER_02
Like, this is my game.
0
SPEAKER_02
And it gave me this opening into a new possibility in my life.
0
SPEAKER_02
Like, let me research this.
0
SPEAKER_02
Maybe there's a USA team.
0
SPEAKER_02
Maybe I could make the team.
0
SPEAKER_02
Maybe we could qualify for the Olympics.
0
SPEAKER_02
This is what happened in about 10 minutes of watching this sport in 2008. 2000,
0
SPEAKER_02
 Ten rolls around.
0
SPEAKER_02
I moved to New York City to play for a team on team handball.
0
SPEAKER_02
The top team in the country.
0
SPEAKER_02
New York City's got the best team and then the USA for the club teams.
0
SPEAKER_02
I moved there to literally to go learn the sport for a year.
0
SPEAKER_02
 I meet a girl, and this girl, we have this chemistry, this connection, all these things in the first month or whatever, right?
0
SPEAKER_02
But then I start to see the signs later, but I wasn't aware of it.
0
SPEAKER_02
And she knew that this was a part of my dream.
0
SPEAKER_02
And I'd been training this whole year for this chance to make the USA national team.
0
SPEAKER_02
They'd select 16 Americans, the whole population, to be on the USA national team.
0
SPEAKER_02
 I've been planning this for two years, training for a year, moved to a new state, new city to practice every week.
0
SPEAKER_02
I get an email and I'm with the person I was with at the time.
0
SPEAKER_02
I get an email that says, you've been selected to the USA national team.
0
SPEAKER_01
Congratulations, I'm kind of excited about what's happening now.
0
SPEAKER_02
I get goosebumps thinking about it, right?
0
SPEAKER_02
This was something, the email I was waiting for.
0
SPEAKER_02
You've been selected, you're going to the Pan American Championships with the national team to compete for our country.
0
SPEAKER_02
 And I'm reading this.
0
SPEAKER_02
I'm literally like so vulnerable and in tears like thinking about this when I'm reading it.
0
SPEAKER_02
And I was with her.
0
SPEAKER_02
She was in the other room and I take it to her.
0
SPEAKER_02
I'm like, you're not gonna believe what happened.
0
SPEAKER_02
Look at this email.
0
SPEAKER_02
I'm like so excited.
0
SPEAKER_02
And right away she goes, man, I wish my career was doing better right now.
0
SPEAKER_02
 There was no congratulations, it was like she went into a depression.
0
SPEAKER_02
It was like a depression of I wish I could do this with my career.
0
SPEAKER_02
And so I put my attention on her to make sure she was okay.
0
SPEAKER_02
 I've been dreaming about this for two years, but I'm telling you about this in my mind, but I was like, well, let me just make sure her needs are met in this moment and I'll get back to celebrating me one day.
0
SPEAKER_02
And it wasn't even an acknowledgment of like congratulations, right?
0
SPEAKER_02
Anyways, this happened multiple times in many relationships, similar situations like that.
0
SPEAKER_02
 which I didn't even know that was a sign.
0
SPEAKER_02
I didn't know until I talked to you whenever this was six months ago or something.
0
SPEAKER_02
I don't even remember where I was going with this, but just I think like the good days, it's like they had a good day.
0
SPEAKER_00
Talking about alignment.
0
SPEAKER_00
Right.
0
SPEAKER_02
But if they have a bad day,
0
SPEAKER_02
 And you have a good day, they're going to kind of try to take you down, is what you said, right?
0
SPEAKER_01
And your story is so interesting, too, because who knows if she was having a bad day or not, but your good news is always a threat to a narcissistic person.
0
SPEAKER_01
Why is that?
0
SPEAKER_01
Always.
0
SPEAKER_01
So it's funny.
0
SPEAKER_01
Why is that?
0
SPEAKER_01
Because remember, at the core of it, narcissism is about insecurity, deep, deep insecurity.
0
SPEAKER_01
 We always think of these people as having really big self-esteem.
0
SPEAKER_01
They have what I can only call inaccurate self-esteem.
0
SPEAKER_01
They have this sort of falsely grandiose vision of themselves, but at this unprocessed, deep, unconscious level.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's not like they walk around thinking, I'm really insecure, so I better be grandiose.
0
SPEAKER_01
The insecurity is unprocessed.
0
SPEAKER_00
They're not even aware of it.
0
SPEAKER_01
They're not even aware of it, but it's almost like this nagging thing that's always in the background.
0
SPEAKER_01
So anything that activates
0
SPEAKER_01
 It's almost like it starts to percolate up out of the groundwater.
0
SPEAKER_01
That's when you'll see all kinds of things, passive aggression, which is what you were up against, sullenness, resentment, sometimes overt aggression, because they're trying to protect themselves against the threat.
0
SPEAKER_01
 that this insecurity will pop up.
0
SPEAKER_01
That's the dance, right?
0
SPEAKER_01
So when I've worked with folks who are in narcissistic relationships, listen, people who have been married a long time or in long-term relationships or have kids, it's not so easy to say, just break up and follow your bliss.
0
SPEAKER_01
It just doesn't work that way.
0
SPEAKER_01
And so I'd say, okay, I'm gonna have to give you some strategies to stay in this.
0
SPEAKER_01
And I always call it the good, bad, indifferent rule.
0
SPEAKER_01
 Never ever let the narcissistic person be the first person you share your good news with.
0
SPEAKER_01
Never.
0
SPEAKER_01
You should have called your bestest person at that point.
0
SPEAKER_02
Who was going to celebrate you.
0
SPEAKER_01
Who would have been like, oh my gosh, we all got him, right?
0
SPEAKER_01
Like the good thing happens and you're like, I've got to tell this person.
0
SPEAKER_01
And they're like, oh my gosh, 20 bottles
1
SPEAKER_02
 champagne we're having a party that's who you tell first then you got your other people are gonna be happy for you and then and only then do you tell the narcissistic person because at that point you felt that your good news was held and cherished and celebrated and you just feel happy you shared it with people who are able to mirror it back to you that feeling of goodness that's what parenting is about by the way your kid says I
1
SPEAKER_02
 Look, Mommy, I got an A in my exam."
1
SPEAKER_02
Honey, that's so great.
1
SPEAKER_02
Not like, oh, I'm too busy to deal with that right now.
1
SPEAKER_02
And that's what kids who have narcissistic parents get a lot of, like, I don't have time for that right now, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
And their success is never enough.
1
SPEAKER_01
It's never enough.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes, it's never enough.
1
SPEAKER_01
What else do I need to do to get the attention?
1
SPEAKER_00
Right.
1
SPEAKER_02
But in adulthood, that mirroring matters.
1
SPEAKER_02
And then once you do that, and you roll up to the narcissistic person, like, I wish my life was like that.
1
SPEAKER_02
In some ways, you've been so buoyed that it'd be like, you know what?
1
SPEAKER_02
Like, you don't even... At some point, you're like, whatever.
1
SPEAKER_02
 I hope it is too.
1
SPEAKER_00
I hope that works out for you.
1
SPEAKER_02
You feel good, you feel seen.
1
SPEAKER_02
And that's the good.
1
SPEAKER_02
The bad, same thing.
1
SPEAKER_02
Never go to a narcissistic person first with your bad stuff.
1
SPEAKER_01
What happens when you share bad news?
1
SPEAKER_02
They'll either feel inconvenienced, frustrated, what do you want me to do about this?
1
SPEAKER_02
Oh my gosh, so many things are being asked of me, they go into their victim thing.
1
SPEAKER_01
 Yeah, you figure it out.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, you figure it out.
1
SPEAKER_02
And you feel, let's say it's like really bad news, like I found out my mom is really sick or it turns out they're going to be downsizing my division and I'm probably going to be in that first round of layoffs or whatever it is.
1
SPEAKER_02
You find out your friend is ill or you're ill or something.
1
SPEAKER_02
 More often than not the narcissistic person It's almost like they don't want to hear that there's like real stuff that happens in the world that has nothing to do with them Your mother being sick has nothing to do with them So they're really not that interested and that you might interrupt them and bring some like negative juju into their life They don't want that so I always say to people have your people to take your bad news to so people can offer empathy compassion emotional support practical support and only as an afterthought will you say
1
SPEAKER_02
 Because now you've been held, you've been supported.
1
SPEAKER_02
You might have the strength to say at some point, like, yeah, my mom's sick.
1
SPEAKER_02
And they're going to have whatever foolish, you know, unempathic response they have.
1
SPEAKER_02
But now you've been supported.
1
SPEAKER_02
So that takes us to the indifferent.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I tell everyone in a narcissistic relationship, keep it in your phone.
1
SPEAKER_02
Make a little list of completely vacuous topics.
1
SPEAKER_02
The weather.
1
SPEAKER_02
They're building a new house across the way.
1
SPEAKER_02
Can you believe that new grocery store is coming into town?
1
SPEAKER_02
 Go back to the weather.
1
SPEAKER_02
You avoid anything that's a third rail, that's a sensitive issue, or where their negativity could hurt you.
1
SPEAKER_02
So then you can kind of keep the trains running on time.
1
SPEAKER_02
Like, can you believe this heat?
1
SPEAKER_02
It's great.
1
SPEAKER_02
I live out in the San Fernando Valley.
1
SPEAKER_02
Can you believe this heat?
1
SPEAKER_02
 In fact all the narcissistic people out there are gonna know now.
1
SPEAKER_02
I think they're narcissistic because that's how I always do Can you believe this heat but because there's nothing else to say what do you say with the narcissist then?
1
SPEAKER_01
What can you like you're like you've taken out almost everything you believe this?
1
SPEAKER_01
I mean with someone and you have kids with them and you have to interact with
1
SPEAKER_02
 Procedural stuff.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I think that what happens is people want a real partner.
1
SPEAKER_02
They want someone to share stuff with them.
1
SPEAKER_02
You're never gonna have that here.
1
SPEAKER_02
You're never gonna have it, so give it up.
1
SPEAKER_02
So you're just gonna have to recognize, it might be things like, who's taking him to soccer today?
1
SPEAKER_02
And if they say, I'm too busy to take him to soccer, realistic expectations, of course they're too busy.
1
SPEAKER_02
Say, piece of cake, I got it.
1
SPEAKER_02
I always tell folks, if you're in a narcissistic relationship, you need to plan A, B, C, and D. Because they are always going to let you down.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh my gosh.
1
SPEAKER_01
 Okay, so you mentioned a little moment ago about there are certain situations where you're not going to be able to get out of a relationship and follow your bliss.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, no, you can't.
1
SPEAKER_01
But is there a world where you could at some point as opposed to saying I've got to live for the next 30 years with this person or 10 years with this person?
1
SPEAKER_01
That sounds like a…
1
SPEAKER_01
 you know, a free prison sentence.
1
SPEAKER_01
You're in the free world, but you're living in prison inside in your own home.
1
SPEAKER_01
That doesn't seem like a healthy lifestyle.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's not.
1
SPEAKER_02
Because I work with such varied audiences, I'm very, very mindful of how painful it is for people to say, if you don't go then.
1
SPEAKER_02
Now, I've said to them,
1
SPEAKER_02
 if you don't go there's limits to how far I can take you on this growth process because you're still constantly having this echoing voice that invalidates you and reminds you of that invalidation you know in the next room.
1
SPEAKER_02
So there's only but there's only so much but there's still a lot of growth.
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean your life almost becomes a series of silent acts of rebellion.
1
SPEAKER_02
You know some people literally I know some folks told me you
1
SPEAKER_02
 You know what?
1
SPEAKER_02
I was inspired by what you said, so I just went to an online university, and I got my degree, and I never told them.
1
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, that to me is a triumph.
1
SPEAKER_01
It's just like inner victories.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, inner like- That's a triumph.
1
SPEAKER_01
It's like everything is a little game for yourself to like find your own joy.
1
SPEAKER_02
Correct.
1
SPEAKER_02
Or they volunteer in their community, and what they recognize is that the volunteering is joyful.
1
SPEAKER_02
The narcissist would say to them, why would you want to help a bunch of people who are too stupid to help themselves?
1
SPEAKER_02
 If anything, they'll say their horrible negativity only reinforces that I'm totally right about them, I'm not wrong about this, I'm not a bad person for recognizing that they're toxic, and I can go out and do something that fills my soul.
1
SPEAKER_02
But you're right, it's only a partial victory.
1
SPEAKER_02
But if you can get out, get out.
1
SPEAKER_01
Right, okay.
1
SPEAKER_01
So let me ask you this.
1
SPEAKER_01
 Again, I know there are certain cultures and situations and countries that probably have harder restrictions of removing yourself.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so let's figure this out.
1
SPEAKER_01
It's gonna be painful to stay in the marriage if there's with a narcissistic person.
1
SPEAKER_01
It's gonna be extremely painful to leave for potentially years where you might have to find a whole new community, move, build friendships and relationships again, be on your own, all that stuff.
1
SPEAKER_01
 But if there's light at the end of the tunnel when you leave, you know, three, five, seven years out, as opposed to being in the relationship for that time, is that the better solution?
1
SPEAKER_02
 You know, I think that it's so hard to say because if somebody said to me, tell me the best solution, take away all the contextual factors, it's obviously not to be in such a relationship.
1
SPEAKER_02
When we talk about how people manage themselves in these relationships, there's all these forms of contact you can have.
1
SPEAKER_02
And the most extreme is no contact, which means done.
1
SPEAKER_02
You block them, you cut them out, you don't speak to them, you don't take their calls, nada, nothing.
1
SPEAKER_02
 And you know what?
1
SPEAKER_02
There's places I've actually seen the hard data on this.
1
SPEAKER_02
Everyone will say, no contact, awesome.
1
SPEAKER_02
Like I feel so much better now that they no longer exist in my life.
1
SPEAKER_02
But it's a really limited strategy.
1
SPEAKER_02
If it's your family member, if it's someone you co-parent with, it's somebody you might still have professional contact with.
1
SPEAKER_02
So that's such an extreme that it might work.
1
SPEAKER_02
Let's say someone dated someone and you don't have a ton of mutual friends and you move away physically.
1
SPEAKER_02
 No contact can happen.
1
SPEAKER_02
And let me tell you, I've done no contact.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's good.
1
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_02
Then there's low contact.
1
SPEAKER_02
Now, low contact can be done in a couple of different ways, but it tends to be, you know, what I'd say more perfunctory.
1
SPEAKER_02
You don't really engage with them.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's just really like, just sort of, let's say it's a family member.
1
SPEAKER_02
You've decided like, okay, this person's so bad for me.
1
SPEAKER_02
I want nothing to do with them, but your beloved cousin's getting married.
1
SPEAKER_02
 You may just say to beloved cousin, just whatever the opposite side of the room for seating me is, I'd appreciate it.
1
SPEAKER_02
Maybe they come and talk to you and you give them very simple, yes, no, kids are great responses.
1
SPEAKER_02
You go to the bathroom a lot when they approach you.
1
SPEAKER_02
People are going to think you have some sort of digestive problem, but it's a great out, but you step away.
1
SPEAKER_02
And if it gets to be too much, you give yourself permission to leave.
1
SPEAKER_02
 So it is, you know, low contact doesn't mean like they come to you and you don't speak to them.
1
SPEAKER_02
You might say, Oh, hi.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
Mm hmm.
1
SPEAKER_02
Kids are great.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
Mm hmm.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's been a long time.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I actually got to run to the restroom.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's one of those.
1
SPEAKER_02
And so or I got I got to run.
1
SPEAKER_02
I've got a call or whatever.
1
SPEAKER_02
 So you find your ways to maintain, and then you won't have contact with them maybe for 10 more years until there's another wedding or funeral or something like that.
1
SPEAKER_02
So that's more of the low contact.
1
SPEAKER_02
And then there's all these techniques like gray rock and yellow rock, like all these techniques to figure out ways to communicate.
1
SPEAKER_02
But the tool I give people, and I think maybe I talked about this last time, I don't remember, but it's something I call don't go deep with them, which means don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, and don't personalize.
1
SPEAKER_02
 And it's a mantra, like don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize, deep.
1
SPEAKER_01
What happens if you do any of those?
1
SPEAKER_02
If you defend, you're going to get in the mud with them and they like it and you get dirty.
1
SPEAKER_02
So that doesn't make sense.
1
SPEAKER_02
So you don't want to, if you defend, it's just going to escalate and gaslight and fight.
1
SPEAKER_02
And there's no point because you're not going to end at any kind of sane, rational place.
1
SPEAKER_02
 When you explain, they will definitely gaslight you.
1
SPEAKER_02
So there's no point to that.
1
SPEAKER_02
Engaging means don't get into a conversation with them.
1
SPEAKER_02
Do not ask them what they think of something.
1
SPEAKER_02
Do not tell them that good news.
1
SPEAKER_02
And don't personalize, this isn't about you.
1
SPEAKER_02
They do this to anyone in your position.
1
SPEAKER_02
 They're going to manipulate.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's what they do.
1
SPEAKER_02
And so they're going to lie.
1
SPEAKER_02
They're going to gaslight.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's just how their personalities are organized.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's not about you.
1
SPEAKER_02
There's nothing you can do to change this.
1
SPEAKER_02
Not you, not me, not anybody.
1
SPEAKER_02
And so that's the, it's a really fun, then that's what we call radical acceptance.
1
SPEAKER_02
 Nothing you can do I won't it ain't gonna change and that's not because and a lot of people say well It's not gonna change because I'm not enough.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's not gonna change because it's not gonna change.
1
SPEAKER_01
No one's ever enough for them
1
SPEAKER_01
 So I'm going to ask you a practical question.
1
SPEAKER_01
There's different stages of being in a relationship, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
You meet someone, you go on a date with them.
1
SPEAKER_01
That's a certain stage of a relationship.
1
SPEAKER_01
You date for weeks, months, however long before you say we're going to be committed or exclusive with each other, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Then there's a, you know, a marriage commitment and that type of relationship.
1
SPEAKER_01
 What would be, in your mind, the key things that an individual should really focus on seeing or experiencing from the person that they want to date before they say, I want to get committed and exclusive with you?
1
SPEAKER_01
Not before marriage, but just, OK, I feel comfortable enough to be in an exclusive, committed relationship with you.
1
SPEAKER_01
What are those key things you would need to see or experience to make sure you feel comfortable taking that step?
1
SPEAKER_02
Watch how they respond to stress or frustration.
1
SPEAKER_02
 If you only had one thing you can do, it's that.
1
SPEAKER_02
Because that's the test, right?
1
SPEAKER_02
Do they start, do they become really dysregulated, impulsive, say really awful things.
1
SPEAKER_02
And then, you know, I was just really stressed out, you know, because if they did it there, they're always going to do that because they're on their best behavior in this early dating relationship.
1
SPEAKER_02
You know, how are they handling themselves?
1
SPEAKER_02
 in a traffic jam.
1
SPEAKER_02
How do they handle themselves when you get to the restaurant and they say, oh, we've lost your reservation?
1
SPEAKER_02
Because you really are looking for the person who says, you know what, you up for a fast food?
1
SPEAKER_02
Because there's a place across the street.
1
SPEAKER_02
And you know what, it could be the dinner where you fall in love with that person over your cheeseburgers.
1
SPEAKER_02
Exactly.
1
SPEAKER_02
But if that person makes it, do you know who I am?
1
SPEAKER_02
Oh, let me tell you, Yelp review, blah, blah, blah.
1
SPEAKER_02
You're going to be sorry, blah, blah, blah.
1
SPEAKER_02
 No, I mean, and I think those situations manifest pretty early on.
1
SPEAKER_02
And the trick is, because everything else is sort of new and sparkly and fun, people want to say, oh, they just had a bad day.
1
SPEAKER_01
 They have bad days all the time.
1
SPEAKER_02
I would say that's your, especially that early in the game, that's a runaway kind of like, or not even runaway to say, just sort of slowly start distancing.
1
SPEAKER_02
Some people need to see two of those events.
1
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_02
So great.
1
SPEAKER_02
You'll get your second soon enough.
1
SPEAKER_02
And so I would say that's a really, that's a big one.
1
SPEAKER_02
 I think other things you want to look at are things like around equity, equitability, and balance in the relationship.
1
SPEAKER_02
How often are you knocking yourself out for them?
1
SPEAKER_02
So in other words, you're shaping your schedule to them, you're shaping your preferences to them, you're giving up things for them, and yet they still make it sound like you give up maybe
1
SPEAKER_02
 I don't know, you were invited to an old friend's birthday party.
1
SPEAKER_02
It was going to be a girl's night out.
1
SPEAKER_02
And they doubt your commitment, like, oh, really?
1
SPEAKER_02
It's your friends instead of me?
1
SPEAKER_02
And then you end up canceling on the friends, and you go out with them.
1
SPEAKER_02
And they'll say, isn't this so much more fun?
1
SPEAKER_02
So they make it seem like your sacrifice was actually good for you.
1
SPEAKER_02
That's something else you could see early in the game.
1
SPEAKER_02
Oh, my gosh.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
 Narcissistic people do tend to like to control the narrative, so there will be some isolating happening.
1
SPEAKER_02
If you feel that you're not, you don't feel comfortable saying, I'm gonna go see my friends, or I wanna spend time alone with my sister, or something like that, and they pathologize that, especially when it's early.
1
SPEAKER_02
This is sort of a process for you, and if they're trying to annex all of your time, that's a sign, too, that you need to pay attention to.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, if they're trying to take you from your friends and family.
1
SPEAKER_02
 But sometimes it's not even that obvious.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's more of a, why can't I come?
1
SPEAKER_02
Or they doubt your commitment.
1
SPEAKER_02
And so it's not as like, you're not seeing your friends.
1
SPEAKER_02
You spend a lot of time with your friends.
1
SPEAKER_02
Maybe this just isn't the right time in your life for a relationship.
1
SPEAKER_02
I get that, I got that.
1
SPEAKER_02
So they play that game.
1
SPEAKER_02
And then you're thinking, no, I'm kind of really into this person.
1
SPEAKER_01
So they're not angry at you, but they're doing it in a covert way, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
They doubt your commitment.
1
SPEAKER_02
 And because people want to prove their commitment, right?
1
SPEAKER_02
And they know I'm really committed to this.
1
SPEAKER_02
OK, you know, it's just I find it interesting that on a Saturday night, that's what you chose, even though you've told them weeks ago and then you give in.
1
SPEAKER_01
So look out for those two things.
1
SPEAKER_01
It's interesting because I'm, you know, every time you say something like this, I'm reminded of the past of like, OK, all these stressful situations.
1
SPEAKER_01
But
1
SPEAKER_01
 With Martha, I talk a lot about Martha on the show because she's been amazing for me.
1
SPEAKER_01
But with Martha, we had an experience where we went on a trip within the first month of kind of knowing each other and dating.
1
SPEAKER_01
 And we were supposed to go to Vegas.
1
SPEAKER_01
And we had flights booked, but for whatever reason, all the flights that day got canceled, and we couldn't get there for the event.
1
SPEAKER_01
We were going to see an event until the next morning on the flight, and we were gonna miss it.
1
SPEAKER_01
And so I'm coming to her, kind of bringing some, a little bit of this PTSD remnants of like, hope she's gonna be okay, is she gonna be upset, the flights, this.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I bring her in and say, hey, the flights are not happening, we could try to take a later flight.
1
SPEAKER_01
 But we may not make it in time for the event.
1
SPEAKER_01
What do you want to do?
1
SPEAKER_01
Let's just drive.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I was going to say, if this girl's got it going on, she would offer to let's just drive.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh, it's no worries.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like, let's just drive.
1
SPEAKER_01
I'm so used to people being like, well, I need first class and I needed this.
1
SPEAKER_01
And, you know, this kind of like, don't you know who I am type of mentality.
1
SPEAKER_01
 She was like, let's just, you want to drive?
1
SPEAKER_01
Kind of like fun with it.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, you sure you're okay with that?
1
SPEAKER_01
And she was like, yeah, let's go.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, cool, let's jump.
1
SPEAKER_01
So we jumped, we just grabbed our bags, we packed, we went in and we drove.
1
SPEAKER_01
And we had the most incredible five hour drive.
1
SPEAKER_01
There was traffic and it was on a Friday night and it was like, whatever, stressful, but we had so much fun.
1
SPEAKER_01
 I was like, this girl's got something.
1
SPEAKER_01
She's got something going on.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I think when you travel with someone, you can see these stressful experiences.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yes, I do agree that if you travel with someone, you can see a lot.
1
SPEAKER_02
And that's what I'm saying, that stress can come out there too.
1
SPEAKER_02
But I do think it's almost a way to create a living lab and set up a trip in the first three months of the relationship.
1
SPEAKER_02
It doesn't have to be a lab, but it can be something as quick as ages.
1
SPEAKER_02
It could be a weekend trip.
1
SPEAKER_02
It doesn't have to be like two weeks somewhere.
1
SPEAKER_02
Watch how they do.
1
SPEAKER_02
Because I will tell you, that's the test.
1
SPEAKER_02
 Somebody who can be chill while they travel, done.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's almost like a final exam of the early part of the relationship.
1
SPEAKER_01
Before you exclusively commit.
1
SPEAKER_02
And again, for people to know, this doesn't mean you have to have air tickets and this.
1
SPEAKER_02
It could really be like a road trip.
1
SPEAKER_02
It could be a camping trip.
1
SPEAKER_02
It could be any number of things, but like a few days where it's really just you and them.
1
SPEAKER_02
Because when you travel, inevitably, it's something.
1
SPEAKER_02
 right?
1
SPEAKER_02
And to watch how you manage that.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's a great test because if it's a narcissistic person, if everything isn't just so perfect, and the thing is, you got to watch how they try to gaslight it away.
1
SPEAKER_02
If you start getting a little leery, this is not okay, they're going to make it into, don't you understand?
1
SPEAKER_02
I wanted to make it perfect for you.
1
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_02
I just wanted it to be a great trip.
1
SPEAKER_02
And so, because if you might be pushing back and saying,
1
SPEAKER_02
 You know, the way you were acting under stress, I just was trying to make it right for you.
1
SPEAKER_02
And now you're feeling so guilty because they were trying to make it right for you.
1
SPEAKER_02
So I will tell folks this.
1
SPEAKER_02
If you're noticing there's some of those early patterns and you decide to distance from this relationship because it feels like there's some red flags, don't tell them the why.
1
SPEAKER_02
Really?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
This ain't you.
1
SPEAKER_02
You ain't their teacher, their life coach.
1
SPEAKER_02
You're trying to get out of this relationship because if you tell them the why, they're going to gaslight you.
1
SPEAKER_01
 They're going to say, well, I was stressed.
1
SPEAKER_02
I was trying to do something nice for you.
1
SPEAKER_02
You're being too particular.
1
SPEAKER_02
You're unappreciative.
1
SPEAKER_02
Exactly.
1
SPEAKER_02
You're sensing a red flag.
1
SPEAKER_02
You can make it about yourself and say, yeah, you know, whatever your reasons are, I think work's getting to be a lot for me, or maybe this isn't the right time for me to have a relationship.
1
SPEAKER_02
And people say, well, Dr. Ramani, isn't that a missed opportunity?
1
SPEAKER_02
No, they ain't listening to you.
1
SPEAKER_02
 So it really, if you say to them, this is why, it'll be Gaslight City, and you're gonna stay in it.
1
SPEAKER_02
Because I think people feel like, well, I need to tell them and maybe they'll improve.
1
SPEAKER_02
They're not going to improve, that's their radical existence.
1
SPEAKER_01
What about if, what if someone feels just stuck in a relationship?
1
SPEAKER_01
Maybe there's narcissistic tendencies, maybe not, but they feel stuck in a relationship.
1
SPEAKER_01
 What's a good conversation that someone should have with their partner?
1
SPEAKER_01
To evaluate where it's at and how they can get unstuck whether there's narcissism or not.
1
SPEAKER_01
What's just yeah, what's your opinions?
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean, it's a different it's an it's a different scenario, right because I think
1
SPEAKER_02
 In a narcissistic relationship, you're working for survival.
1
SPEAKER_02
I have to tell you, people in narcissistic relationships may not initially feel stuck.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's like the MacGyver of relationship situations.
1
SPEAKER_02
What kind of duct tape do I need to use to fix this thing?
1
SPEAKER_02
You're doing, doing, doing.
1
SPEAKER_02
Where people feel stuck in a narcissistic relationship is when they get in too deep.
1
SPEAKER_02
 share a place, kids, marriage.
1
SPEAKER_02
That's where the stuckness happens because I think by and large, and then honestly there's one big interesting thing with narcissistic relationships is the fear that the narcissist is going to change for the next person.
1
SPEAKER_02
 Because there's a lot of stuff they like about that person.
1
SPEAKER_02
They're really attracted to them.
1
SPEAKER_02
They have great sex with them.
1
SPEAKER_02
They're charismatic.
1
SPEAKER_02
They have shared interests.
1
SPEAKER_02
People love them.
1
SPEAKER_02
They've got a really amazing career, job, status, whatever.
1
SPEAKER_02
Whatever it may be, there's a lot of magnetic qualities.
1
SPEAKER_02
And so that idea that the new person is going to get Mr. Magnetic is actually really overwhelming.
1
SPEAKER_02
 But in a sense of stuckness, it's an interesting issue and it's something I've encountered even with couples I've done therapy with.
1
SPEAKER_02
And it's, you know, listen, there is the, you know, there's sort of the kind of the standard advice around like, how do you start dating again in this relationship?
1
SPEAKER_02
How do you keep that piece of it alive?
1
SPEAKER_02
How do you keep giving it some level of priority status?
1
SPEAKER_02
How do you
1
SPEAKER_02
 Make sure you do communicate, make the time.
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean, mindfulness has such an important role in human relationships, not just intimate relationships, all relationships.
1
SPEAKER_02
Everybody's talking about mindfulness, mindfulness, mindfulness.
1
SPEAKER_02
It means paying attention to what's in front of you.
1
SPEAKER_02
 And that means that it can be the littlest things about, oh my gosh, that's right, he had a meeting at two.
1
SPEAKER_02
You text him at three, like, hey, how did that meeting go?
1
SPEAKER_02
I was just thinking of you.
1
SPEAKER_02
That stuff becomes the stuff of the relationship.
1
SPEAKER_02
And then saying, hey, you had a tough one today.
1
SPEAKER_02
Let's cook this, go here, pop the champagne.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's that idea that someone's noticing you.
1
SPEAKER_02
So mindfulness can be one piece of the stuckness.
1
SPEAKER_02
 The other is...
1
SPEAKER_02
 Do you have shared vision?
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean, we talk about this in the workplace all the time, but is that there?
1
SPEAKER_02
And that doesn't even mean there's something wrong with someone if they don't have shared vision, but sometimes if you don't have that, that can contribute to the stuckness because you're not working towards a common goal.
1
SPEAKER_02
If you have a company and one person's like, I want to sell lots of hand lotion, and the other person's like, I really envision us as being a salsa company, you're going to be stuck.
1
SPEAKER_02
 Right?
1
SPEAKER_02
Someone's chopping tomatoes.
1
SPEAKER_02
Someone's like putting on all this lotion.
1
SPEAKER_02
So you're going to be stuck.
1
SPEAKER_02
So it's the salsa hand lotion of it all.
1
SPEAKER_02
Like one of you may be wanting to work towards family and children.
1
SPEAKER_02
The other one wants to travel the world.
1
SPEAKER_02
Both people are afraid to talk about it.
1
SPEAKER_02
And so how do you get unstuck?
1
SPEAKER_02
 you actually go to the edge of the cliff and recognize that if you open up and they go, because that's the fear, that fear of abandonment, that fear of being alone, that fear of loss, that if you can go to the edge of the cliff and say, this is actually what I want,
1
SPEAKER_02
 and can tolerate that early in the game especially if you don't have stuff like kids and commitments and all that where you spoke in your truth and they can say that's not what I want and not personalize it because as kids it's almost like the equivalent of bringing our picture to our parents and say
1
SPEAKER_02
 look what I drew and the parent not caring or even worse the parents say you're not my kid anymore because that's a bad right and so what the idea that we could bring our truth to someone and they'd say
1
SPEAKER_02
 Yeah, no, that's not what I want.
1
SPEAKER_02
It starts becoming the sunk cost fallacy, which kills most relationships, right?
1
SPEAKER_02
That's the idea of, I've already put all this resource into something.
1
SPEAKER_02
That's how people get stuck, is the sunk cost fallacy.
1
SPEAKER_02
And you've got to remember, behavioral economics often does have some of these answers.
1
SPEAKER_02
You've already put the money in.
1
SPEAKER_02
You've got a human experience.
1
SPEAKER_02
Don't put more into this.
1
SPEAKER_02
 And so then you have the conversation.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I've actually seen some people have beautiful ends to their relationship where they say, I, you know, I still have this, I'm not ready for X or Y. I don't want to do X or Y. That's not the direction I want to go in.
1
SPEAKER_02
And they managed to salvage friendships and genuine curiosity in each other.
1
SPEAKER_02
And then that, and then that's that.
1
SPEAKER_02
But it's scary.
1
SPEAKER_01
It takes a lot of courage for someone to end a relationship, no matter what type of, you know,
1
SPEAKER_02
 And I wouldn't even say it's ended.
1
SPEAKER_02
I think it takes a lot of courage to speak your truth in a relationship.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's not even the ending.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's saying, what I want in this relationship is I want us to say, I want to have kids.
1
SPEAKER_02
I want to live.
1
SPEAKER_02
I want to move out of the city.
1
SPEAKER_02
I want to put our focus there.
1
SPEAKER_02
And the other person might say, I don't want those things.
1
SPEAKER_02
 And that's when you say, okay, then we're on very different paths, but it's so easy for me to sit here in a studio and intellectually say this.
1
SPEAKER_02
Let's say I'm a 39-year-old woman.
1
SPEAKER_02
That's not, what then?
1
SPEAKER_00
What then?
1
SPEAKER_02
You know, now you're thinking, oh my God, I want a child.
1
SPEAKER_02
This is what's in front of me.
1
SPEAKER_02
And then they start doing the math.
1
SPEAKER_02
I'm gonna meet.
1
SPEAKER_01
Now I'm 42.
1
SPEAKER_01
 Is there someone better than this?
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, all these things.
1
SPEAKER_02
And it's not even better as much as somebody who's more on my path.
1
SPEAKER_00
Aligned.
1
SPEAKER_02
This is how it happens because we do forget that there is a sort of a biological piece to all of this.
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean, reproductive technology is changing that and some women out there and women close to me have said, you know what?
1
SPEAKER_02
 I want the kid, I'm not so sure I want the relationship.
1
SPEAKER_02
And should I fall in love with someone?
1
SPEAKER_02
I don't wanna fight with them over custody.
1
SPEAKER_02
So women are having their own children without a partner and saying, now motherhood's out of the game, it's actually easier to date.
1
SPEAKER_02
And now I'm gonna meet a man, either he wants a woman with a child or he doesn't.
1
SPEAKER_02
If he doesn't, he's not my guy.
1
SPEAKER_02
But I'll never have to fight this guy for custody of this kid.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's a new world and people who are making allowances for not wanting to get stuck in toxic relationships
1
SPEAKER_02
 Going different path and I know men who have done that to men who have gotten surrogates and said I want to be a father They know they look they find a they find this I'm going to get an egg donor eggs They get donor eggs and they find surrogates and they're like I want to be a being a father to me Was foremost if I meet and fall in love with someone super but I want to be a father.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's not cheap though So these are very privileged folks who can do this.
1
SPEAKER_02
But the fact is that
1
SPEAKER_02
 There are paths forward in a way, and I think that the amount of damage, Lewis, that people being raised in toxic relationships, having witnessed toxic relationships, may be one of the biggest psychological crises that most people bring into adulthood.
1
SPEAKER_02
So I think making different choices is how we were raised.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes, and not breaking the cycle.
1
SPEAKER_02
We have crappy blueprints.
1
SPEAKER_01
Very crappy.
1
SPEAKER_01
 I have this, I don't know if I want to call it a formula, but just some steps that I've been developing through my own healing journey and reflection of previous relationships and now being in a very, I would call, conscious, healthy relationship.
1
SPEAKER_01
I would love for you to either pick a part or validate or add to or whatever you want to these kind of steps that I've been putting together myself that I think have helped me in this transition towards what to create when stepping into a new relationship.
1
SPEAKER_01
 The first one is for a conscious, healthy relationship.
1
SPEAKER_01
The first one is you working on your healing journey before you get into it.
1
SPEAKER_01
Or if you're into it, start it while you start the relationship, being in a healthy, focusing on a whole healthy body, mind, spirit, and soul.
1
SPEAKER_01
Healing the past and being on that journey.
1
SPEAKER_01
Step one.
1
SPEAKER_01
Without that, I feel like it's not a strong foundation, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Because you're going to be more susceptible.
1
SPEAKER_01
Step two is, I don't know if this, for me,
1
SPEAKER_01
 Feel free to pick a hole at this.
1
SPEAKER_01
Step two would be to do the love language test with the person you're dating and to see if you're in alignment with the way you receive and give love naturally.
1
SPEAKER_01
 I think in previous relationships, for whatever reason, I chose women that didn't receive the love that I naturally gave.
1
SPEAKER_01
They liked acts of service and gifts.
1
SPEAKER_01
I was like, I don't care about giving someone a gift, because it's not value for me.
1
SPEAKER_01
I like praising someone and touching someone.
1
SPEAKER_02
Words of affirmation.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and touching them, and giving affection, and telling them how much I appreciate them.
1
SPEAKER_01
But they wanted the gift to feel loved, because that was their blueprint.
1
SPEAKER_01
So I was always doing something that was more work for someone to feel loved.
1
SPEAKER_01
 And in the current relationship, we have like identical love languages in order.
1
SPEAKER_01
So, we both naturally show up who we are and feel loved by the other person.
1
SPEAKER_01
So, it's just less friction.
1
SPEAKER_01
I don't have to think, I need to buy a gift or I need to do this every week that I normally wouldn't want to do.
1
SPEAKER_01
 That's number two.
1
SPEAKER_01
Number three, four, and five is getting clear with your honest truth about your values, your vision, and your lifestyle.
1
SPEAKER_01
Kind of like what you were saying.
1
SPEAKER_01
If your values are out of alignment, it's going to be challenging.
1
SPEAKER_01
If your vision is, I want to make hot sauce and you want to make shoes, we have a different share