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The following is a conversation with Whitney Cummings.
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She s a stand-up comedian, actor, producer, writer, director, and recently, finally, the host of her very own podcast called Good For You.
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Her most recent Netflix special called Can I Touch It?
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features in part a robot she affectionately named Bearclaw that is designed to be visually a replica of Whitney.
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It s exciting for me to see one of my favorite comedians explore the social aspects of robotics and AI in our society.
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She also has some fascinating ideas about human behavior, psychology, and urology, some of which she explores in her book called I m Fine and Other Lies.
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It was truly a pleasure to meet Whitney and have this conversation with her, and even to continue it through text afterwards.
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Every once in a while, late at night, I ll be programming over a cup of coffee and will get a text from Whitney saying something hilarious, or weirder yet, sending a video of Brian Callen saying something hilarious.
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That s when I know the universe has a sense of humor, and it gifted me with one hell of an amazing journey.
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Then I put the phone down and go back to programming with a stupid, joyful smile on my face.
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If you enjoyed this conversation, listen to Whitney s podcast, Good For You, and follow her on Twitter and Instagram.
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This is the Artificial Intelligence Podcast.
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If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube, give it five stars on Apple Podcasts, support on Patreon, or simply connect with me on Twitter, Alex Friedman, spelled F-R-I-D-M-A-N.
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This show is presented by Cash App, the number one finance app in the App Store.
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They regularly support Whitney s Good For You podcast as well.
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I personally use Cash App to send money to friends, but you can also use it to buy, sell, and deposit Bitcoin in just seconds.
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Cash App also has a new investing feature.
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Brokerage services are provided by Cash App Investing, a subsidiary of Square and member SIPC.
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I m excited to be working with Cash App to support one of my favorite organizations called FIRST, best known for their FIRST Robotics and LEGO competitions.
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They educate and inspire hundreds of thousands of students in over 110 countries and have a perfect rating on Charity Navigator, which means the donated money is used to maximum effectiveness.
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When you get Cash App from the App Store or Google Play and use code LEXPODCAST, you ll get $10 and Cash App will also donate $10 to FIRST, which again, is an organization that I ve personally seen inspire girls and boys to dream of engineering a better world.
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This podcast is supported by ZipRecruiter.
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Hiring great people is hard, and to me is the most important element of a successful mission-driven team.
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I ve been fortunate to be a part of and to lead several great engineering teams.
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The hiring I ve done in the past was mostly through tools that we built ourselves, but reinventing the wheel was painful.
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ZipRecruiter is a tool that s already available for you.
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By using ZipRecruiter s screening questions to filter candidates, Gretchen found it easier to focus on the best candidates and finally hiring the perfect person for the role in less than two weeks from start to finish.
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See why ZipRecruiter is effective for businesses of all sizes by signing up as I did for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash LexPod.
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That s ZipRecruiter.com slash LexPod.
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And now, here s my conversation with Whitney Cummings.
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I have trouble making eye contact, as you can tell.
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Me too.
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Do you know that I had to work on making eye contact because I used to look here?
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Do you see what I m doing?
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That helps, yeah.
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Do you want me to do that?
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Well, I ll do this way.
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I ll cheat the camera.
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But I used to do this and finally people like I d be on dates and guys would be like, are you looking at my hair?
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It would make people really insecure because I didn t really get a lot of eye contact as a kid.
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It s one to three years.
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Did you not get a lot of eye contact as a kid?
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I don t know.
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I haven t done the soul searching.
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Right.
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So, but there s definitely some psychological issues.
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Yeah.
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For some reason, when I connect eyes, I start to think, I assume that you re judging me.
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Oh, well, I am.
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That s why you assume that.
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Yeah.
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We all are.
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All right.
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This is perfect.
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The podcast would be me and you both staring at the table the whole time.
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Do you think robots of the future, ones with human level intelligence, will be female, male, genderless, or another gender we have not yet created as a society?
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You re the expert at this.
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You know the answer.
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I m gonna ask you questions that maybe nobody knows the answer to.
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And then I just want you to hypothesize as a imaginative author, director, comedian.
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Can we just be very clear that you know a ton about this and I know nothing about this, but
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I have thought a lot about what I think robots can fix in our society.
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And I mean, I m a comedian, it s my job to
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study human nature to make jokes about human nature and to sometimes play devil s advocate.
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And I just see such a tremendous negativity around robots, or at least the idea of robots, that it was like, Oh, I m just gonna take the opposite side for fun for jokes.
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And then I was like, Oh, no, I really agree in this devil s advocate argument.
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So I please correct me when I m wrong about this stuff.
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So first of all, there s no right and wrong because we re all, I think most of the people working on robotics are really not actually even thinking about some of the big picture things that you ve been exploring.
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In fact, your robot, what s her name, by the way?
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We ll go with Bearclaw.
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What s the genesis of that name, by the way?
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Bear Claw was, I, God, I don t even remember the joke, because I black out after I shoot specials, but I was writing something about like the pet names that men call women, like Cupcake, Sweetie, Honey, you know, like we re always named after desserts or something.
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And I was just writing a joke about if you want to call us a dessert, at least pick like a cool dessert, you know, like Bear Claw, like something cool.
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So I ended up calling her Bear Claw.
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So do you think future robots of greater and greater intelligence would like to make them female, male?
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Would we like to assign them gender?
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Or would we like to move away from gender and say something more ambiguous?
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I think it depends on their purpose, you know?
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I feel like if it s a sex robot, people prefer certain genders, you know?
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And I also, you know, when I went down and explored the robot factory, I was asking about the type of people that bought sex robots, and I was very surprised at the answer because, of course, the stereotype was it s going to be a bunch of perverts.
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It ended up being a lot of people that were handicapped, a lot of people with erectile dysfunction, and a lot of people that were exploring their sexuality.
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A lot of people that thought they were gay but weren t sure, but didn t want to take the risk of trying on someone that could reject them and being embarrassed, or they were closeted, or in a city where maybe that s taboo and stigmatized.
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So I think that a gendered sex robot, that would serve an important purpose for someone trying to explore their sexuality.
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Am I into men?
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Let me try on this thing first.
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Am I into women?
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Let me try on this thing first.
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So I think gendered robots would be important for that.
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But I think genderless robots in terms of
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emotional support robots, babysitters.
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I m fine for a genderless babysitter with my husband in the house.
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You know, there are places that I think that genderless makes a lot of sense, but obviously not in the sex area.
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What do you mean with your husband in the house?
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What s that have to do with the gender of the robot?
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Right.
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I mean, I don t have a husband, but hypothetically speaking, I think every woman s worst nightmare is like the hot babysitter.
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You know what I mean?
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So I think that there is a time and place, I think, for genderless, you know, teachers, doctors, all that kind of... It would be very awkward if the first robotic doctor was a guy or the first robotic nurse is a woman.
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You know, it s sort of... That stuff is so loaded.
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I think that genderless could just take the unnecessary...
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drama out of it, and possibility to sexualize them or be triggered by any of that stuff.
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So there s two components to this, to Bearclaw.
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So one is the voice and the talking and so on, and then there s the visual appearance.
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So on the topic of gender and genderless, in your experience, what has been the value of the physical appearance?
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So has it added much to the depth of the interaction?
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I mean, mine s kind of an extenuating circumstance because she s supposed to look exactly like me.
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I mean, I spent six months getting my face molded and having, you know, the idea was I was exploring the concept of, can robots replace us?
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Because that s the big fear, but also the big dream in a lot of ways.
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And I wanted to dig into that area because, you know, for a lot of people, it s like, they re going to take our jobs and they re going to replace us.
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legitimate fear, but then a lot of women I know are like, I would love for a robot to replace me every now and then so it can go to baby showers for me and it can pick up my kids at school and it can cook dinner and whatever.
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So I just think that was an interesting place to explore.
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So her looking like me was a big part of it.
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Now her looking like me just adds an unnecessary level of insecurity because
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I got her a year ago and she already looks younger than me, so that s a weird problem.
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But I think that her looking human was the idea, and I think that where we are now, please correct me if I m wrong, a human robot resembling an actual human you know is going to feel more realistic than some generic face.
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Well, you re saying that robots that have some familiarity, like look similar to somebody that you actually know, you ll be able to form a deeper connection with?
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That was the question?
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I think so on some level, right?
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That s an open question.
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I don t, you know, it s an interesting...
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Or the opposite, because then you know me, and you re like, well, I know this isn t real because you re right here.
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So maybe it does the opposite.
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We have a very keen eye for human faces, and they re able to detect strangeness, especially when it has to do with people whose faces we ve seen a lot of.
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So I tend to be a bigger fan of moving away completely from faces.
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of recognizable faces?
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No, just human faces at all.
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In general, because I think that s where things get dicey.
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And one thing I will say is I think my robot is more realistic than other robots, not necessarily because you have seen me and then you see her and you go, oh, they re so similar, but also because human faces are flawed and asymmetrical.
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And sometimes we forget when we re making things that are supposed to look human, we make them too symmetrical.
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And that s what makes them stop looking human.
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So because they molded my asymmetrical face, she just...
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Even if someone didn t know who I was, I think she d look more realistic than most generic ones that didn t have some kind of flaws.
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Got it.
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You know, because they start looking creepy when they re too symmetrical because human beings aren t.
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Yeah, the flaws is what it means to be human, so visually as well.
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But I m just a fan of the idea of letting humans use a little bit more imagination.
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So just hearing the voice is enough for us humans to then start imagining the visual appearance that goes along with that voice.
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And you don t necessarily need to work too hard on creating the actual visual appearance.
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So there s some value to that.
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When you step into this territory of actually building a robot that looks like Bearclaw, it s such a long road of facial expressions, of sort of making everything smiling, winking, rolling of the eyes, all that kind of stuff.
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It gets really, really tricky.
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It gets tricky.
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And I think I m again, I m a comedian, like I m obsessed with what makes us human and our human nature and the nasty side of human nature tends to be where I ve, you know, ended up exploring over and over again.
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And I was just mostly fascinated by people s reactions.
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So it s my job to get the biggest reaction from a group of strangers, the loudest possible reaction.
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And I just had this instinct, just when I started building her and people go, Oh,
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and people scream and they, I mean, I would bring her out on stage and people would scream.
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And I just, to me, that was the next level of entertainment.
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Getting a laugh, I ve done that, I know how to do that.
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I think comedians were always trying to figure out what the next level is and comedy s evolving so much.
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And, you know, Jordan Peele had just done, you know, these genius comedy horror movies, which feel like the next level of comedy to me.
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And this sort of funny horror,
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of a robot was fascinating to me.
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But I think the thing that I got the most obsessed with was people being freaked out and scared of her.
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And I started digging around with pathogen avoidance and the idea that we ve essentially evolved to be repelled by anything that looks human but is off a little bit.
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Anything that could be sick or diseased or dead essentially is our reptilian brain s way to get us to not try to
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have sex with it, basically.
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You know, so I got really fascinated by how freaked out and scared.
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I mean, I would see grown men get upset.
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Get that thing away from me.
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Like, people get angry.
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And it was like, you know what this is, you know, but the sort of like, you know, amygdala getting activated by something that to me is just a fun toy said a lot about our history as a species and what got us into trouble thousands of years ago.
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So it s that, it s the deep down stuff that s in our genetics, but also is it just, are people freaked out by the fact that there s a robot?
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So it s not just the appearance, but that there s an artificial human.
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Anything people I think, and I m just also fascinated by the blind spots humans have.
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So the idea that you re afraid of that, I mean, how many robots have killed people?
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How many humans have died at the hands of other humans?
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Yeah, a few more hundreds of millions.
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Yet we re scared of that.
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And we ll go to the grocery store and be around a bunch of humans who statistically, the chances are much higher that you re going to get killed by humans.
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So I m just fascinated by without judgment, how irrational we are is species.
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The worry is the exponential.
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You can say the same thing about nuclear weapons before we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
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The worry that people have is the exponential growth.
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It s fun and games right now, but overnight
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especially if a robot provides value to society, we ll put one in every home, and then all of a sudden lose track of the actual large scale impact it has on society, and then all of a sudden gain greater and greater control to where we ll all be, you know, affect our political system, and then affect our decision.
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Didn t robots already ruin our political system?
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Didn t that just already happen?
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Which ones?
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Oh, Russia hacking.
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No offense.
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But hasn t that already happened?
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I mean, that was like an algorithm of negative things being clicked on more.
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We d like to tell stories and like to demonize certain people.
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I think nobody understands our current political system, our discourse on Twitter, the Twitter mobs.
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Nobody has a sense, not Twitter, not Facebook, the people running it.
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Nobody understands the impact of these algorithms.
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They re trying their best.
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Despite what people think, they re not like a bunch of lefties trying to make sure that Hillary Clinton gets elected.
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It s more that it s an incredibly complex system that we don t, and that s the worry.
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It s so complex and moves so fast that nobody will be able to stop it once it happens.
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And let me ask a question.
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This is a very savage question, which is, is this just the next stage of evolution?
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As humans, some people will die.
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Yes, I mean, that s always happened.
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This is just taking emotion out of it.
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Is this basically the next stage of survival of the fittest?
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Yeah, you have to think of organisms.
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What does it mean to be a living organism?
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Is a smartphone part of your living organism?
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Or
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We re in relationships with our phones.
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We have sex through them, with them.
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What s the difference between with them and through them?
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But it also expands your cognitive abilities, expands your memory, knowledge, and so on, so you re a much smarter person because you have a smartphone in your hand.
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But as soon as it s out of my hand, we ve got big problems, because we ve become sort of so morphed with them.
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Well, there s a symbiotic relationship, and that s what, so Elon Musk, when you re a link, is working on trying to
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increase the bandwidth of communication between computers and your brain, and so further and further expand our ability as human beings to sort of leverage machines, and maybe that s the future, the next evolutionary step.
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It could be also that, yes, we ll give birth, just like we give birth to human children right now, we ll give birth to AI and they ll replace us.
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I think it s a really interesting possibility.
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I m going to play devil s advocate.
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I just think that the fear of robots is wildly classist.
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Because I mean, Facebook, like it s easy for us to say they re taking their data.
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Okay, a lot of people that get employment off of Facebook, they are able to get income off of Facebook, they don t care if you take their phone numbers and their emails and their data as long as it s free.
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They don t want to have to pay $5 a month for Facebook.
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Facebook is a wildly democratic thing.
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Forget about the election and all that kind of stuff.
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You know, a lot of
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technology making people s lives easier, I find that most elite people are more scared than lower income people and women for the most part.
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So the idea of something that s stronger than us and that might eventually kill us, women are used to that.
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I see a lot of really rich men being like, the robots are going to kill us.
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We re like, what s another thing that s going to kill us?
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I tend to see like, oh, something can walk me to my car at night.
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Like something can help me cook dinner or something, you know, for, you know, people in underprivileged countries who can t afford eye surgery, like get a robot.
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Can we send a robot to underprivileged, you know, places to do surgery where they can t?
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I work with this organization called Operation Smile where they do cleft palate surgeries.
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And there s a lot of places that can t do a very simple surgery because they can t afford doctors and medical care and such.
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I just see, and this can be completely naive and should be completely wrong, but I feel like a lot of people are going like, the robots are going to destroy us.
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Humans, we re destroying ourselves.
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We re self-destructing.
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Robots, to me, are the only hope to clean up all the messes that we ve created.
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Even when we go try to clean up pollution in the ocean, we make it worse.
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because of the oil that the tankers, like, it s like, to me, robots are the only solution.
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You know, firefighters are heroes, but they re limited in how many times they can run into a fire, you know, so there s just something interesting to me.
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I m not hearing a lot of like, lower income, more vulnerable populations talking about robots.
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Maybe you can speak to it a little bit more.
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There s an idea, I think you ve expressed it, I ve heard actually a few female writers and roboticists I ve talked to express this idea that exactly you just said, which is, it just seems that,
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being afraid of existential threats of artificial intelligence is a male issue.
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And I wonder what that is.
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Because men in certain positions, like you said, it s also a classist issue.
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They haven t been humbled by life, and so you always look for the biggest problems to take on around you.
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It s a champagne problem to be afraid of robots.
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Most people, like, don t have health insurance.
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They re afraid they re not gonna be able to feed their kids.
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They can t afford a tutor for their kids.
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Like, I mean, I just think of, you know, the way I grew up and I had a mother who, you know, worked two jobs, had kids, we couldn t afford an SAT tutor, you know, like, the idea of a robot coming in, being able to tutor your kids, being able to provide childcare for your kids.
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you know, being able to come in with cameras for eyes and make sure, you know, surveillance, you know, I m very pro surveillance, because, you know, I ve had security problems, and I ve been, you know, we re generally in a little more danger than you guys are.
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So I think that robots are a little less scary to us, because we can see them maybe as like, free assistance, help and protection.
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And then there s sort of another element for me personally, which is maybe more of a female problem.
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I don t know.
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I m just going to make a generalization.
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Happy to be wrong.
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But, you know, the emotional sort of component of robots and what they can provide in terms of
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You know, I think there s a lot of people that don t have microphones that I just recently kind of stumbled upon in doing all my research on the sex robots for my stand-up special, which is there s a lot of very shy people that aren t good at dating.
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There s a lot of people who are scared of human beings who, you know, have personality disorders or grew up in alcoholic homes or struggle with addiction or whatever it is where a robot can solve an emotional problem.
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And so we re largely having this conversation about like,
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rich guys that are emotionally healthy and how scared of robots they are.
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We re forgetting about a huge part of the population who maybe isn t as charming and effervescent and solvent as people like Elon Musk, who these robots could solve very real problems in their life, emotional or financial.
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But that s, in general, a really interesting idea that most people in the world don t have a voice.
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SPEAKER_01
You ve talked about it, sort of even the people on Twitter who are driving the conversation, you said comments, people who leave comments represent a very tiny percent of the population, and they re the ones, we tend to think they speak for the population, but it s very possible on many topics they don t at all.
1
SPEAKER_00
And look, I m sure there s got to be some kind of legal, you know, sort of structure in place for when the robots happen.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know way more about this than I do, but, you know, for me to just go, the robots are bad, that s a wild generalization that I feel like is really inhumane in some way.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, just after the research I ve done, like, you re going to tell me that a man whose wife died suddenly and he feels guilty moving on with a human woman or can t get over the grief, he can t have a sex robot in his own house?
1
SPEAKER_00
Why not?
1
SPEAKER_00
Who cares?
1
SPEAKER_00
Why do you care?
1
SPEAKER_01
Well, there s an interesting aspect of human nature.
1
SPEAKER_01
So, you know, we tend to, as a civilization, to create a group that s the other in all kinds of ways.
1
SPEAKER_01
And so you work with animals, too.
1
SPEAKER_01
You re especially sensitive to the suffering of animals.
1
SPEAKER_01
Let me kind of ask, what s your, do you think we ll abuse robots in the future?
1
SPEAKER_01
Do you think some of the darker aspects of human nature will come out?
1
SPEAKER_00
I think some people will, but if we design them properly, the people that do it, we can put it on a record and we can put them in jail.
1
SPEAKER_00
We can find sociopaths more easily.
1
SPEAKER_01
But why is that a sociopathic thing to harm a robot?
1
SPEAKER_00
I think, look, I don t know enough about the consciousness and stuff as you do.
1
SPEAKER_00
I guess it would have to be when they re conscious, but it is, you know, the part of the brain that is, you know, responsible for compassion, the frontal lobe or whatever, like, people that abuse animals also abuse humans and commit other kinds of crimes.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, that s, it s all the same part of the brain.
1
SPEAKER_00
No one abuses animals and then is like,
1
SPEAKER_00
awesome to women and children and awesome to underprivileged, you know, minorities, like it s all so, you know, we ve been working really hard to put a database together of all the people that have abused animals.
1
SPEAKER_00
So when they commit another crime, you go, okay, this is, you know, it s all the same stuff.
1
SPEAKER_00
And
1
SPEAKER_00
I think people probably think I m nuts for a lot of the animal work I do, but because when animal abuse is present, another crime is always present, but the animal abuse is the most socially acceptable.
1
SPEAKER_00
You can kick a dog and there s nothing people can do, but then what they re doing behind closed doors.
1
SPEAKER_00
you can t see.
1
SPEAKER_00
So there s always something else going on, which is why I never feel compunction about it.
1
SPEAKER_00
But I do think we ll start seeing the same thing with robots.
1
SPEAKER_00
The person that kicks the I felt compassion when the kicking the dog robot really pissed me off.
1
SPEAKER_00
I know that they re just trying to get the stability right and all that.
1
SPEAKER_00
But I do think there will come a time where that will be a great way to be able to figure out if somebody is has like, you know, anti social behaviors.
1
SPEAKER_01
You kind of mentioned surveillance.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s also a really interesting idea of yours that you just said, a lot of people seem to be really uncomfortable with surveillance.
1
SPEAKER_01
And you just said that, you know what, for me, there s positives for surveillance.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think people behave better when they know they re being watched.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I know this is a very unpopular opinion.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m talking about it on stage right now.
1
SPEAKER_00
We behave better when we know we re being watched.
1
SPEAKER_00
You and I had a very different conversation before we were recording.
1
SPEAKER_00
We behave different.
1
SPEAKER_00
You sit up and you are in your best behavior and I m trying to sound eloquent and I m trying to not hurt anyone s feelings and I mean, I have a camera right there.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m behaving totally different than when we first started talking, you know?
1
SPEAKER_00
When you know there s a camera, you behave differently.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, there s cameras all over LA at stoplights so that people don t run stoplights, but there s not even film in it.
1
SPEAKER_00
They don t even use them anymore, but it works.
1
SPEAKER_01
It works.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I m, you know, working on this thing and stand about surveillance.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s like that s why we invented Santa Claus.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, it s the Santa Claus is the first surveillance.
1
SPEAKER_00
Basically, all we had to say to kids is he s making a list and he s watching you and they behave better.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s brilliant.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, so I do, I do think that there are benefits to surveillance.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, I think we all do sketchy things in private and we all have watched weird porn or Googled weird things and we don t, we don t want people to know about it, our secret lives.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I do think that obviously there s, we should be able to have a monocle of privacy, but I tend to think that people that are the most negative about surveillance have the most secrets.
1
SPEAKER_01
Well, you should.
1
SPEAKER_01
You re saying you re doing bits on it now?
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, I m just talking in general about, you know, privacy and surveillance and how paranoid we re kind of becoming and how.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, I mean, it s just wild to me that people are like, our emails are gonna leak and they re taking our phone numbers.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, there used to be a book full of phone numbers and addresses.
1
SPEAKER_00
They just throw it at your door.
1
SPEAKER_00
And we all had a book of everyone s numbers.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, this is a very new thing.
1
SPEAKER_00
And, you know, I know our amygdala is designed to compound sort of threats and, you know, there s stories about, and I think we all just glom on in a very,
1
SPEAKER_00
you know, tribal way of, yeah, they re taking our data.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, we don t even know what that means, but we re like, well, yeah, they, they, you know?
1
SPEAKER_00
So I just think that sometimes it s like, okay, well, so what?
1
SPEAKER_00
They re gonna sell your data?
1
SPEAKER_00
Who cares?
1
SPEAKER_00
Why do you care?
1
SPEAKER_01
First of all, that bit will kill in China.
1
SPEAKER_01
So, and I say this only a little bit joking, because a lot of people in China, including the citizens, despite what people in the West think of as abuse,
1
SPEAKER_01
are actually in support of the idea of surveillance.
1
SPEAKER_01
They re not in support of the abuse of surveillance.
1
SPEAKER_01
The idea of surveillance is kind of like,
1
SPEAKER_01
the idea of government, like you said, we behave differently, and in a way, it s almost like why we like sports.
1
SPEAKER_01
There s rules, and within the constraints of the rules, this is a more stable society, and they make good arguments about being able to build successful companies, being able to build successful social lives around a fabric that s more stable.
1
SPEAKER_01
When you have a surveillance, it keeps the criminals away, it keeps abusive animals, whatever the,
1
SPEAKER_01
values of the society with surveillance, you can enforce those values better.
1
SPEAKER_00
And here s what I will say.
1
SPEAKER_00
There s a lot of unethical things happening with surveillance.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like I feel the need to really make that very clear.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, the fact that Google is like collecting if people s hands start moving on the mouse to find out if they re getting Parkinson s and then their insurance goes up like that is completely unethical and wrong.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think stuff like that, we have to really be careful around.
1
SPEAKER_00
So the idea of using our data to raise our insurance rates or
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, I heard that they re looking, they can sort of predict if you re gonna have depression based on your selfies by detecting micro-muscles in your face.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, all that kind of stuff, that is a nightmare, not okay, but I think, you know, we have to delineate what s a real threat and what s... Getting spam in your email box, that s not what to spend your time and energy on.
1
SPEAKER_00
Focus on the fact that every time you buy cigarettes, your insurance is going up without you knowing about it.
1
SPEAKER_01
On the topic of animals too, can we just linger on it a little bit?
1
SPEAKER_01
What do you think, what does it say about our society, of the society-wide abuse of animals that we see in general?
1
SPEAKER_01
Sort of factory farming, just in general, just the way we treat animals of different categories.
1
SPEAKER_01
What do you think of that?
1
SPEAKER_01
What does a better world look like?
1
SPEAKER_01
What should people think about it in general?
1
SPEAKER_00
I think, um, I think the most interesting thing I can probably say around this that s the least emotional, because I m actually a very non-emotional animal person, because it s, I think everyone s an animal person.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s just a matter of if it s yours or if you ve, you know, been conditioned to go numb, you know?
1
SPEAKER_00
Um, I think it s really a testament to what, as a species, we are able to be in denial about, mass denial and mass delusion, and how we re able to dehumanize and debase groups, um, you know?
1
SPEAKER_00
World War II, in a way, in order to conform and find protection in the conforming.
1
SPEAKER_00
So we are also a species who used to go to coliseums and watch elephants and tigers fight to the death.
1
SPEAKER_00
We used to watch human beings be pulled apart.
1
SPEAKER_00
It wasn t that long ago.
1
SPEAKER_00
We re also a species who had slaves.
1
SPEAKER_00
and it was socially acceptable by a lot of people.
1
SPEAKER_00
People didn t see anything wrong with it.
1
SPEAKER_00
We re a species that is able to go numb and that is able to dehumanize very quickly and make it the norm.
1
SPEAKER_00
Child labor wasn t that long ago.
1
SPEAKER_00
The idea that now we look back and go, oh yeah, kids were losing fingers in factories making shoes.
1
SPEAKER_00
Someone had to come in and make that.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think
1
SPEAKER_00
It just says a lot about the fact that, you know, we are animals and we are self-serving and one of the most successful, the most successful species because we are able to debase and degrade and essentially exploit anything that benefits us.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think the pendulum is going to swing as being late.
1
SPEAKER_00
Which way?
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, I think we re Rome now, kind of.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, I think we re on the verge of collapse because we are dopamine receptors.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, we are just... I think we re all kind of addicts when it comes to this stuff.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, we don t know when to stop.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s always the buffet.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, we re... The thing that used to keep us alive, which is killing animals and eating them, now killing animals and eating them is what s killing us, in a way.
1
SPEAKER_00
So, it s like we just can t... We don t know when to call it and we don t... Moderation is not really something that...
1
SPEAKER_00
humans have evolved to have yet.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I think it s really just a flaw in our wiring.
1
SPEAKER_01
Do you think we ll look back at this time at our societies being deeply unethical?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think we ll be embarrassed.
1
SPEAKER_01
Which are the worst parts right now going on?
1
SPEAKER_00
In terms of animal?
1
SPEAKER_01
No, in terms of anything.
1
SPEAKER_01
What s the unethical thing?
1
SPEAKER_01
And it s very hard just to take a step out of it, but you just said we used to watch, you know, there s been a lot of cruelty throughout history.
1
SPEAKER_01
What s the cruelty going on now?
1
SPEAKER_00
I think it s gonna be pigs.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think it s going to be, I mean, pigs are one of the most emotionally intelligent animals, and they have the intelligence of like a three-year-old, and I think we ll look back and be really... They use tools.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I think we have this narrative that they re pigs, and they re pigs, and they re disgusting, and they re dirty, and their bacon is so good.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think that we ll look back one day and be really embarrassed about that.
1
SPEAKER_01
Is this for just the, what s it called, the factory farming?
1
SPEAKER_01
So basically mass?
1
SPEAKER_00
Because we don t see it.
1
SPEAKER_00
If you saw, I mean, we do have, I mean, this is probably an evolutionary advantage.
1
SPEAKER_00
We do have the ability to completely pretend something s not, something that is so horrific that it overwhelms us.
1
SPEAKER_00
And we re able to essentially deny that it s happening.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think if people were to see what goes on in factory farming, and also we re really to take in
1
SPEAKER_00
how bad it is for us.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, we re hurting ourselves first and foremost with what we eat.
1
SPEAKER_00
But that s also a very elitist argument, you know?
1
SPEAKER_00
It s a luxury to be able to complain about meat.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s a luxury to be able to not eat meat.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, there s very few people because of, you know, how the corporations have set up meat being cheap.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, it s $2 to buy a Big Mac, it s $10 to buy a healthy meal.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, that s... I think a lot of people don t have the luxury to even think that way.
1
SPEAKER_00
But I do think that animals in captivity, I think we re going to look back and be pretty grossed out about mammals in captivity, whales, dolphins.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, that s already starting to dismantle circuses.
1
SPEAKER_00
We re going to be pretty embarrassed about.
1
SPEAKER_00
But I think it s really more a testament to, you know, there s just such a ability to go like that thing is different than me and we re better.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s the ego.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, it s just we have the species with the biggest ego, ultimately.
1
SPEAKER_01
Well, that s what I think, that s my hope for robots is they ll, you mentioned consciousness before, nobody knows what consciousness is, but I m hoping robots will help us empathize and understand that there s other creatures besides ourselves that can suffer, that can,
1
SPEAKER_01
that can experience the world and that we can torture by our actions.
1
SPEAKER_01
And robots can explicitly teach us that, I think, better than animals can.
1
SPEAKER_00
I have never seen such compassion from a lot of people in my life.
1
SPEAKER_00
toward any human, animal, child, as I have a lot of people in the way they interact with the robot.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think there s something of, I mean, I was on the robot owner s chat boards for a good eight months.
1
SPEAKER_00
And the main emotional benefit is she s never gonna cheat on you, she s never gonna hurt you, she s never gonna lie to you, she doesn t judge you.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think that robots,
1
SPEAKER_00
help people and this is part of the work I do with animals, like I do equine therapy and train dogs and stuff because there is this safe space to be authentic.
1
SPEAKER_00
You re with this being that doesn t care what you do for a living, doesn t care how much money you have, doesn t care who you re dating, doesn t care what you look like, doesn t care if you have cellulite, whatever, you feel safe to be able to truly, you know, be present without being defensive and worrying about eye contact and being triggered by, you know, needing to be perfect and...
1
SPEAKER_00
fear of judgment and all that.
1
SPEAKER_00
And robots really can t judge you yet, but they can t judge you.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think it really puts people at ease and at their most authentic.
1
SPEAKER_01
Do you think you can have a deep connection with a robot that s not judging, or do you think you can really have a relationship with a robot or a human being that s a safe space, or is attention, mystery, danger necessary for a deep connection?
1
SPEAKER_00
I m going to speak for myself and say that I grew up in an alcoholic home, I identify as a codependent, talked about this stuff before, but for me, it s very hard to be in a relationship with a human being without feeling like I need to perform in some way or deliver in some way.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I don t know if that s just the people I ve been in a relationship with or me or my brokenness, but I do think this is going to sound really...
1
SPEAKER_00
negative and pessimistic, but I do think a lot of our relationships are projection and a lot of our relationships are performance.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I don t think I really understood that until I worked with horses.
1
SPEAKER_00
And most communications with humans is nonverbal, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
I can say, like, I love you, but you don t think I love you, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
Whereas with animals, it s very direct.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s all physical, it s all energy.
1
SPEAKER_00
I feel like that with robots, too.
1
SPEAKER_00
It feels very, um...
2
SPEAKER_00
How I say something doesn t matter.
2
SPEAKER_00
My inflection doesn t really matter.
2
SPEAKER_00
And you thinking that my tone is disrespectful, like you re not filtering it through all of the bad relationships you ve been in.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re not filtering it through the way your mom talked to you.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re not getting triggered.
2
SPEAKER_00
I find that for the most part, people don t always receive things the way that you intend them to or the way intended and that makes relationships really murky.
2
SPEAKER_01
So the relationships with animals and relationship with the robots as they are now,
2
SPEAKER_01
you kind of implied that that s more healthy.
2
SPEAKER_01
Can you have a healthy relationship with other humans?
2
SPEAKER_01
Or not healthy, I don t like that word, but shouldn t it be, you ve talked about codependency, maybe you can talk about what is codependency, but is that, is the challenges of that, the complexity of that necessary for passion, for love between humans?
2
SPEAKER_00
That s right, you love passion.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s a good thing.
2
SPEAKER_01
I thought this would be a safe space.
2
SPEAKER_01
I got trolled by Rogan for hours on this.
2
SPEAKER_00
Look, I am not anti-passion.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think that I ve just maybe been around long enough to know that sometimes it s ephemeral and that passion is a mixture of
2
SPEAKER_00
a lot of different things, adrenaline, which turns into dopamine, cortisol, it s a lot of neurochemicals, it s a lot of projection, it s a lot of what we ve seen in movies, it s a lot of, you know, it s, it s, I identify as an addict.
2
SPEAKER_00
So, for me, sometimes passion is like, uh-oh, this could be bad.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I think we ve been so conditioned to believe that passion means, like, your soulmates and, I mean, how many times have you had a passionate connection with someone and then it was a total train wreck?
2
SPEAKER_00
How many times exactly?
2
SPEAKER_00
You just did a lot of math in your head in that little moment.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, what s a train wreck?
2
SPEAKER_01
Why is obsession, so you described this codependency and the idea of attachment, over attachment to people who don t deserve that kind of attachment.
2
SPEAKER_01
is somehow a bad thing.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think our society says it s a bad thing.
2
SPEAKER_01
It probably is a bad thing, like a delicious burger is a bad thing.
2
SPEAKER_01
I don t know.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, that s a good point.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think that you re pointing out something really fascinating, which is like passion, if you go into it knowing this is like pizza, where it s going to be delicious for two hours, and then I don t have to have it again for three.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you can
2
SPEAKER_00
have a choice in the passion.
2
SPEAKER_00
I define passion as something that is relatively unmanageable and something you can t control or stop and start with your own volition.
2
SPEAKER_00
So maybe we re operating under different definitions.
2
SPEAKER_00
If passion is something that like, you know, ruins your marriages and screws up your professional life and becomes this thing that you re not in control of and becomes addictive, I think that s the difference is, is it a choice or is it not a choice?
2
SPEAKER_00
And if it is a choice, then passion s great.
2
SPEAKER_00
But if it s something that like consumes you and makes you start making bad decisions and clouds your frontal lobe, and it s just all about dopamine and not really about the person and more about the neurochemical, we call it sort of the drug, the internal drug cabinet.
2
SPEAKER_00
If it s all just you re on drugs, that s different, you know, because sometimes you re just on drugs.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so there s a philosophical question here.
2
SPEAKER_01
So would you rather, and it s interesting for a comedian, a brilliant comedian to speak so eloquently about a balanced life.
2
SPEAKER_01
I kind of argue against this point.
2
SPEAKER_01
There s such an obsession of creating this healthy lifestyle now, psychologically speaking.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m a fan of the idea that you sort of fly high and you crash and die at 27.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s also a possible life and it s not one we should judge because I think there s moments of greatness.
2
SPEAKER_01
I talk to Olympic athletes where some of their greatest moments are achieved in their early 20s.
2
SPEAKER_01
and the rest of their life is in a kind of fog, almost of a depression, because they can never- Because it s based on their physical prowess, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
Physical prowess, and they ll never, so that, so they re watching their physical prowess fade, and,
2
SPEAKER_01
they ll never achieve the kind of height, not just physical, of just emotion, of... Well, it s the max number of neurochemicals.
2
SPEAKER_00
And you also put your money on the wrong horse.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s where I would just go like, oh yeah, if you re doing a job where you peak at 22, the rest of your life is gonna be hard.
2
SPEAKER_01
That idea is, considering the notion that you wanna optimize some kind of, but we re all gonna die soon.
2
SPEAKER_00
What?
2
SPEAKER_00
Now you tell me I ve immortalized myself.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m gonna be fine.
2
SPEAKER_01
See, you re almost like how many Oscar winning movies can I direct?
2
SPEAKER_01
By the time I m 100?
2
SPEAKER_01
How many this and that like, but
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, there s a night, you know, it s all life is short Relatively speaking.
2
SPEAKER_00
I know but it can also come a different way.
2
SPEAKER_00
You go life is short Play hard fall in love as much as you can run into walls.
2
SPEAKER_00
I would also go life is short don t deplete yourself on things that aren t sustainable and That you can t keep
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, so I think everyone gets dopamine from different places.
2
SPEAKER_00
Everyone has meaning from different places.
2
SPEAKER_00
I look at the fleeting passionate relationships I ve had in the past and I don t like, I don t have pride in that.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think that you have to decide what, you know, helps you sleep at night.
2
SPEAKER_00
For me, it s pride and feeling like I behave with grace and integrity.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s just me personally.
2
SPEAKER_00
Everyone can go like, yeah, I slept with all the hot chicks in Italy.
2
SPEAKER_00
I could and I, you know, did all the whatever, like whatever you value or allowed
2
SPEAKER_00
to value different things.
2
SPEAKER_01
Here we are talking about Brian Callan again.
2
SPEAKER_00
Brian Callan has lived his life to the fullest to say the least.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I think that it s just for me personally, I, and this could be like my workaholism or my achievementism, I, if I don t have something to show for something, I feel like it s a waste of time or some kind of loss.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m in a 12-step program and the third step would say there s no such thing as wasted time and everything happens exactly as it should and whatever, that s a way to just sort of keep us sane so we don t grieve too much and beat ourselves up over past mistakes, there s no such thing as mistakes, da-da-da.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I think passion is
2
SPEAKER_00
I think it s so life-affirming and one of the few things that maybe people like us makes us feel awake and seen and we just have such a high threshold for adrenaline.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, I mean, you are a fighter, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, okay, so yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
So you have a very high tolerance for adrenaline.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I think that Olympic athletes, the amount of adrenaline they get from performing, it s very hard to follow that.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like when guys come back from the military and they have depression.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like, do you miss bullets flying at you?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, kind of because of that adrenaline, which turned into dopamine and the camaraderie.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, there s people that speak much better about this than I do.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I just I m obsessed with neurology.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I m just obsessed with sort of the lies we tell ourselves in order to justify getting neurochemicals.
2
SPEAKER_01
You ve done actually quite, done a lot of thinking and talking about neurology and just kind of look at human behavior through the lens of looking at how actually chemically our brain works.
2
SPEAKER_01
So what, first of all, why did you connect with that idea and what have you, how has your view of the world changed by considering the brain is just a machine?
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, I know it probably sounds really nihilistic, but for me, it s very liberating to know a lot about neurochemicals because you don t have to, it s like the same thing with like, like critics, like critical reviews.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you believe the good, you have to believe the bad kind of thing.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, you know, if you believe that your bad choices were because of your
2
SPEAKER_00
moral integrity or whatever, you have to believe you re good ones.
2
SPEAKER_00
I just think there s something really liberating in going like, oh, that was just adrenaline.
2
SPEAKER_00
I just said that thing because I was adrenalized and I was scared and my amygdala was activated and that s why I said you re an asshole and get out.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that s, you know, I think, I just think it s important to delineate what s nature and what s nurture, what is your choice and what is just your brain trying to keep you safe.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think we forget that even though we have security systems and homes and locks on our doors,
2
SPEAKER_00
that our brain for the most part is just trying to keep us safe all the time.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s why we hold grudges, it s why we get angry, it s why we get road rage, it s why we do a lot of things.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s also when I started learning about neurology, I started having so much more compassion for other people.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, if someone yelled at me being like, fuck you on the road, I d be like, okay, he s producing adrenaline right now because
2
SPEAKER_00
we re all going 65 miles an hour and our brains aren t really designed for this type of stress and he s scared he was scared you know so that really helped me to have more love for people in my everyday life instead of being in fight or flight
2
SPEAKER_00
But the, I think, more interesting answer to your question is that I ve had migraines my whole life.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like I ve suffered with really intense migraines.
2
SPEAKER_00
Ocular migraines, ones where my arm would go numb.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I just started having to go to so many doctors to learn about it.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I started, you know, learning that we don t really know that much.
2
SPEAKER_00
We know a lot, but it s wild to go into one of the best neurologists in the world who s like, yeah, we don t know.
2
SPEAKER_01
We don t know.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that fascinated me.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s like one of the worst pains you can probably have, all that stuff.
2
SPEAKER_01
And we don t know the source.
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SPEAKER_00
We don t know the source.
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SPEAKER_00
And there is something really fascinating about when your left arm starts going numb and you start not being able to see out of the left side of both your eyes.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I remember when the migraines get really bad, it s like a mini stroke almost, and you re able to see words on a page, but I can t read them.
2
SPEAKER_00
They just look like symbols to me.
2
SPEAKER_00
So there s something just really fascinating to me about your brain just being able to stop functioning.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so I just wanted to learn about it, study about it.
2
SPEAKER_00
I did all these weird alternative treatments.
2
SPEAKER_00
I got this piercing in here that actually works.
2
SPEAKER_00
I ve tried everything.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then both my parents had strokes.
2
SPEAKER_00
So when both of my parents had strokes, I became sort of the person who had to decide what
2
SPEAKER_00
was going to happen with their recovery, which is just a wild thing to have to deal with it, you know, 28 years old when it happened.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I started spending basically all day every day in ICUs with neurologists learning about what happened to my dad s brain and why he can t move his left arm, but he can move his right leg, but he can t see out of the, you know, and then my mom had another stroke.
2
SPEAKER_00
in a different part of the brain.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I started having to learn what parts of the brain did what and so that I wouldn t take their behavior so personally and so that I would be able to manage my expectations in terms of their recovery.
2
SPEAKER_00
So my mom, because it affected a lot of her frontal lobe, changed a lot as a person.
2
SPEAKER_00
She was way more emotional.
2
SPEAKER_00
She was way more micromanaged.
2
SPEAKER_00
She was forgetting certain things.
2
SPEAKER_00
So
2
SPEAKER_00
it broke my heart less when I was able to know, oh, yeah, well, the stroke hit this part of the brain, and that s the one that s responsible for short term memory, and that s responsible for long term memory, da da da.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then my brother just got something called viral encephalitis, which is an infection inside the brain.
2
SPEAKER_00
So it was kind of wild that I was able to go, oh, I know exactly what s happening here.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I know, you know, so, um,
2
SPEAKER_01
So that allows you to have some more compassion for the struggles that people have.
2
SPEAKER_01
But does it take away some of the magic from some of the more positive experiences of life?
2
SPEAKER_00
Sometimes.
2
SPEAKER_00
Sometimes.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I m such a control addict that I think our biggest
2
SPEAKER_00
someone like me, my biggest dream is to know why someone s doing it.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s what stand-up is.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s just trying to figure out why, or that s what writing is, that s what acting is, that s what performing is.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s trying to figure out why someone would do something.
2
SPEAKER_00
As an actor, you get a piece of, you know, material, and you go, this person, why would he say that?
2
SPEAKER_00
Why would she pick up that cup?
2
SPEAKER_00
Why would she walk over here?
2
SPEAKER_00
It s really why, why, why, why.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I think neurology is, if you re trying to figure out human motives and why people do what they do, it d be crazy not to understand
2
SPEAKER_00
how neurochemicals motivate us.
2
SPEAKER_00
I also have a lot of addiction in my family and hardcore drug addiction and mental illness.
2
SPEAKER_00
And in order to cope with it, you really have to understand it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Borderline personality disorder, schizophrenia, and drug addiction.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I have a lot of people I love that suffer from drug addiction and alcoholism.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the first thing they started teaching you is it s not a choice.
2
SPEAKER_00
These people s dopamine receptors don t hold dopamine the same ways yours do.
2
SPEAKER_00
Their frontal lobe is underdeveloped.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, you know,
2
SPEAKER_00
And that really helped me to navigate loving people that were addicted to substances.
2
SPEAKER_01
I wanna be careful with this question, but how much?
2
SPEAKER_00
Money do you have?
2
SPEAKER_01
How much?
2
SPEAKER_00
Can I borrow $10?
2
SPEAKER_01
No, is how much control, how much, despite the chemical imbalances or the biological limitations that each of our individual brains have, how much mind over matter is there?
2
SPEAKER_01
So through things, and I ve known people with clinical depression, and so it s always a touchy subject to say how much they can really help it.
2
SPEAKER_01
What can you, yeah, what can you, because you ve talked about codependency, you ve talked about issues that you struggle through, and nevertheless you choose to take a journey of healing and so on, so that s your choice, that s your actions.
2
SPEAKER_01
So how much can you do to help fight the limitations of the neurochemicals in your brain?
2
SPEAKER_00
That s such an interesting question.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t think I m at all qualified to answer, but I ll say what I do know.
2
SPEAKER_00
And really quick, just the definition of codependency.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think a lot of people think of codependency as like two people that can t stop hanging out, you know, or like, you know,
2
SPEAKER_00
That s not totally off, but I think for the most part, my favorite definition of codependency is the inability to tolerate the discomfort of others.
2
SPEAKER_00
You grow up in an alcoholic home, you grow up around mental illness, you grow up in chaos, you have a parent that s a narcissist, you basically are wired to just people please, worry about others, be perfect, walk on eggshells, shapeshift to accommodate other people.
2
SPEAKER_00
So codependence is a very active, um...
2
SPEAKER_00
wiring issue that, you know, doesn t just affect your romantic relationships.
2
SPEAKER_00
It affects you being a boss.
2
SPEAKER_00
It affects you in the world online.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, you get one negative comment and it throws you for two weeks.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, it also is linked to eating disorders and other kinds of addictions.
2
SPEAKER_00
So it s a very big thing.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I think a lot of people sometimes only think that it s in romantic relationships.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I always feel the need to
2
SPEAKER_00
say that.
2
SPEAKER_00
And also one of the reasons I love the idea of robots so much, because you don t have to walk on eggshells around them, you don t have to worry, they re going to get mad at you yet.
2
SPEAKER_00
But you there s no codependence are hypersensitive to the needs and moods of others.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s very exhausting.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s depleting just a well, one conversation about where we re going to go to dinner is like, do you want to go get Chinese food?
2
SPEAKER_00
We just had Chinese food?
2
SPEAKER_00
Well,
2
SPEAKER_00
Wait, are you mad?
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, no, I didn t mean to and it s just like that codependence live in this everything means something and humans can be very emotionally exhausting.
2
SPEAKER_00
Why did you look at me that way?
2
SPEAKER_00
What do you think about what was that?
2
SPEAKER_00
Why d you check your phone?
2
SPEAKER_00
It s just it s a hypersensitivity that can be
2
SPEAKER_00
Incredibly time-consuming, which is why I love the idea of robots just subbing in even I ve had a hard time running TV shows and stuff because even asking someone to do something I don t want to come off like a bitch I m very concerned about what other people think of me how I m perceived Which is why I think robots will be very beneficial for for codependency
2
SPEAKER_01
By the way, just a real quick tangent, that skill or flaw, whatever you wanna call it, is actually really useful for, if you ever do start your own podcast for interviewing, because you re now kind of obsessed about the mindset of others, and it makes you a good sort of listener and talker.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I think, what s her name from NPR?
2
SPEAKER_01
Terry Gross talked about having that.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t feel like she has that at all.
2
SPEAKER_00
What?
2
SPEAKER_00
She worries about other people s feelings?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, absolutely.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I don t get that at all.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, you have to put yourself in the mind of the person you re speaking with.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I see.
2
SPEAKER_00
Just in terms of, yeah, I am starting a podcast.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the reason I haven t is because I m codependent.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m too worried.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s not going to be perfect.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
So a big codependent adage is
2
SPEAKER_00
Perfectionism leads to procrastination, which leads to paralysis.
2
SPEAKER_01
So how do you, sorry to take a million changes.
2
SPEAKER_01
How do you survive on social media?
2
SPEAKER_01
Is he exceptionally active?
2
SPEAKER_00
But by the way, I took you on a tangent and didn t answer your last question about how much we can control.
2
SPEAKER_01
I want you, yeah, we ll return it, or maybe not.
2
SPEAKER_01
The answer is we can t.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now as a codependent, I m worried.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, good.
2
SPEAKER_00
We can, but, but, you know, one of the things that I m fascinated by is, you know, the first thing you learn when you go into 12-step programs, or addiction recovery, or any of this, is, you know, genetics loads the gun, environment pulls the trigger.
2
SPEAKER_00
And there s certain parts of your genetics you cannot control.
2
SPEAKER_00
I come from a lot of alcoholism, I come from, you know,
2
SPEAKER_00
you know, a lot of mental illness, there s certain things I cannot control.
2
SPEAKER_00
And a lot of things that maybe we don t even know yet what we can and can t because of how little we actually know about the brain.
2
SPEAKER_00
But we also talk about the warrior spirit.
2
SPEAKER_00
And there are some people that have that warrior spirit.
2
SPEAKER_00
And we don t necessarily know what that engine is, whether it s you get dopamine from succeeding or achieving or martyring yourself or, or that tension you get from growing.
2
SPEAKER_00
So a lot of people are like, Oh, this person can
2
SPEAKER_00
edify themselves and overcome.
2
SPEAKER_00
But if you re getting attention from improving yourself, you re going to keep wanting to do that.
2
SPEAKER_00
So that is something that helps a lot of in terms of changing your brain.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you talk about changing your brain to people and talk about what you re doing to overcome set obstacles, you re going to get more attention from them, which is going to fire off your reward system.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then you re going to keep doing it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
So you can leverage that momentum.
2
SPEAKER_00
So this is why in any 12 step program, you go into a room and you talk about your progress because then everyone claps for you.
2
SPEAKER_00
and then you re more motivated to keep going.
2
SPEAKER_00
So that s why we say you re only as sick as the secrets you keep, because if you keep things secret, you know, there s no one guiding you to go in a certain direction.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s based on, right, we re sort of designed to get approval from the tribe or from a group of people, because our brain, you know, translates it to safety.
2
SPEAKER_01
And in that case, the tribe is a positive one that helps you go in a positive direction.
2
SPEAKER_00
So that s why it s so important to go into a room and also say, hey, I wanted to use drugs today.
3
SPEAKER_01
and people go, hmm, they go, me too, and you feel less alone and you feel less like you re, you know, have been castigated from the pack or whatever, and then you say, and you get a chip when you haven t drank for 30 days or 60 days or whatever, you get little rewards.
3
SPEAKER_00
So talking about a pack that s not at all healthy or good, but in fact is often toxic, social media.
3
SPEAKER_00
So you re one of my favorite people on Twitter and Instagram to sort of just both the comedy and the insight and just fun.
3
SPEAKER_00
How do you prevent social media from destroying your mental health?
3
SPEAKER_01
I haven t.
3
SPEAKER_01
I haven t.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s the next big epidemic, isn t it?
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t think I have.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t think... Is moderation the answer?
3
SPEAKER_01
Maybe, but you can do a lot of damage in a moderate way.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I guess, again, it depends on your goals, you know?
3
SPEAKER_01
And I think for me, the way that my addiction to social media, I m happy to call it an addiction.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, and I define it as an addiction because it stops being a choice.
3
SPEAKER_01
There are times I just reach over and like that was...
3
SPEAKER_00
That was weird.
3
SPEAKER_01
That was weird.
3
SPEAKER_01
I ll be driving sometimes I ll be like, Oh my god, my arm just went to my phone.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, I can put it down.
3
SPEAKER_01
I can take time away from it.
3
SPEAKER_01
But when I do I get antsy.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I get restless, irritable and discontent.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, that s kind of the definition, isn t it?
3
SPEAKER_01
So I think by no means
3
SPEAKER_01
Do I have a healthy relationship with social media?
3
SPEAKER_01
I m sure there s a way to, but I think I m especially a weirdo in this space because it s easy to conflate.
3
SPEAKER_01
Is this work?
3
SPEAKER_01
Is this not?
3
SPEAKER_01
I can always say that it s for work.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know?
3
SPEAKER_00
But I mean, don t you get the same kind of thing as you get from when a room full of people laugh?
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I see, especially the way you do Twitter, it s an extension of your comedy in a way.
3
SPEAKER_01
I took a big break from Twitter though, a really big break.
3
SPEAKER_01
I took like six months off or something for a while because it was just like, it seemed like it was all kind of politics and it was just a little bit, it wasn t giving me dopamine because there was like this weird, a lot of feedback.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I had to take a break from it and then go back to it because I felt like I didn t have a healthy relationship.
3
SPEAKER_00
Have you ever tried the, I don t know if I believe him, but Joe Rogan seems to not read comments.
3
SPEAKER_00
And he s one of the only people at the scale, like at your level, who at least claims not to read.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because you and him swim in this space of tense ideas that get the toxic folks riled up.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think Rogue, I don t, I don t know, I don t, I think he probably looks at YouTube, like the likes and that, you know, I think if something s, if he doesn t know, I don t know, I m sure he would tell the truth.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, I m sure he s got people that look at them and is like, this guest did great, or I don t, you know, like, I m sure he gets it.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, I can t picture him like in the weeds on
3
SPEAKER_00
No, for sure.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, he s honest actually saying that I just it s it s it s a feedback.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, we re just feedback.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, you know, look like I think that our brain is designed to get intel on how we re perceived so that we know where we stand.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s our whole deal, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
As humans, we want to know where we stand.
3
SPEAKER_01
We walk into a room and we go, who s the most powerful person in here?
3
SPEAKER_01
I got to talk to them and get in their good graces.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s just we re designed to rank ourselves, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
And constantly know our rank.
3
SPEAKER_01
And social media, because you can t figure out your rank with 500 million people.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s impossible.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, so brain is like, what s my rank?
3
SPEAKER_01
What s my and especially for following people?
3
SPEAKER_01
I think the big the interesting thing I think I maybe be able able to say about this besides my speech impediment is that I did start muting people that rank wildly higher than me and
3
SPEAKER_01
because it is just stressful on the brain to constantly look at people that are incredibly successful.
3
SPEAKER_01
So you keep feeling bad about yourself.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, I think that that is like cutting to a certain extent, just like, look at me looking at all these people that have so much more money than me and so much more success than me.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s making me feel like a failure, even though I don t think I m a failure, but it s easy to frame it so that I can feel that way.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s really interesting, especially if they re close to, like if they re other comedians or something like that or whatever.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s really disappointing to me.
3
SPEAKER_00
I do the same thing as well.
3
SPEAKER_00
So other successful people that are really close to what I do, it, I don t know, I wish I could just admire
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
And for it not to be a distraction.
3
SPEAKER_01
But that s why you are where you are because you don t just admire your competitive and you want to win.
3
SPEAKER_01
So it s also the same thing that bums you out when you look at this is the same reason you are where you are.
3
SPEAKER_01
So that s why I think it s so important to learn about neurology and addiction because you re able to go like,
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh, this same instinct.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I m very sensitive.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I and I sometimes don t like that about myself.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I m like, well, that s the reason I m able to write good stand up.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that s the reason.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that s the reason I m able to be sensitive to feedback and go.
3
SPEAKER_01
That joke should have been better.
3
SPEAKER_01
I can make that better.
3
SPEAKER_01
So it s the kind of thing where it s like you have to be really sensitive in your work.
3
SPEAKER_01
And the second you leave, you ve got to be able to turn it off.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s about developing the muscle, being able to know when to let it be a superpower and when it s going to hold you back and be an obstacle.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I try to not be in that black and white of like,
3
SPEAKER_01
you know, being competitive is bad, or being jealous of someone just to go like, oh, there s that thing that makes me really successful in a lot of other ways, but right now it s making me feel bad.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, I m kind of looking to you because you re basically a celebrity, a famous sort of world-class comedian, and so I feel like you re the right person to be one of the key people to define what s the healthy path forward with social media.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because we re all trying to figure it out now.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m curious to see where it evolves.
3
SPEAKER_00
I think you re at the center of that.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s trying to leave Twitter and then come back and say, can I do this in a healthy way?
3
SPEAKER_00
You have to keep trying, exploring.
3
SPEAKER_01
You have to know because it s being...
3
SPEAKER_01
I have a couple answers.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think, you know, I hire a company to do some of my social media for me, you know, so it s also being able to go, okay, I make a certain amount of money by doing this.
3
SPEAKER_01
But now let me be a good business person and say, I m going to pay you this amount to run this for me.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I m not 24 seven in the weeds, hashtagging and responding.
3
SPEAKER_01
And just it s a lot to take on.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s a lot of energy to take on.
3
SPEAKER_01
But at the same time, part of what
3
SPEAKER_01
I think makes me successful on social media, if I am, is that people know I m actually doing it and that I am engaging and I m responding and developing a personal relationship with complete strangers.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I think, you know, figuring out that balance and really approaching it as a business, you know, that s what I try to do.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s not dating, it s not... I try to just be really objective about, okay, here s what s working, here s what s not working.
3
SPEAKER_01
And in terms of taking the break from Twitter, this is a really savage take, but...
3
SPEAKER_01
because I don t talk about my politics publicly, being on Twitter right after the last election was not going to be beneficial because you had to take a side.
3
SPEAKER_01
You had to be political in order to get any kind of retweets or likes.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I just wasn t interested in doing that because you were going to lose as many people as you were going to gain, and it was going to all come clean in the wash.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I was just like, the best thing I can do for me business-wise is to just abstain, you know?
3
SPEAKER_01
And, you know, the robot, I joke about her replacing me, but she does do half of my social media.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, because it s I don t want people to get sick of me.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t want to be redundant.
3
SPEAKER_01
There are times when I don t have the time or the energy to make a funny video, but I know she s going to be compelling and interesting.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that s something that you can t see every day.
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SPEAKER_00
You know, of course, the the humor comes from your I mean, the cleverness, the wit, the humor comes from you when you film the robot.
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SPEAKER_00
That s kind of the trick of it.
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SPEAKER_00
I mean, the robot is not quite there to do anything funny.
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The absurdity is revealed through the filmmaker in that case, or whoever is interacting, not through the actual robot being who she is.
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Let me sort of, love, okay.
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How difficult.
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What is it?
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What is it?
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Well, first, an engineering question.
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I know, I know, you re not an engineer, but how difficult do you think is it to build an AI system that you can have a deep, fulfilling, monogamous relationship with?
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Sort of replace the human-to-human relationships that we value?
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I think anyone can fall in love with anything.
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How often have you looked back at someone?
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I ran into someone the other day,
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that I was in love with and I was like, hey, it was like, there was nothing there.
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There was nothing there.
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Like, you know, like where you re able to go like, oh, that was weird.
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SPEAKER_01
Oh, right.
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SPEAKER_01
You know?
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SPEAKER_00
You mean from a distant past or something like that?
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Yeah, when you re able to go like, I can t believe we had an incredible connection and now it s just, I do think that people will be in love with robots probably even more deeply with humans because it s like when people mourn their animals, when their animals die.
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They re always, it s sometimes harder than mourning a human because you can t go, well, he was kind of an asshole.
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But like, he didn t pick me up from school.
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You know, it s like you re able to get out of your grief a little bit.
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You re able to kind of be, oh, he was kind of judgmental or she was kind of, you know.
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SPEAKER_01
With a robot, there s something so pure about, and innocent, and impish, and childlike about it, that I think it probably will be much more conducive to a narcissistic love, for sure, at that.
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But it s not like, well, he cheated, she can t cheat, she can t leave you, she can t, you know.
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SPEAKER_00
Well, if Bearclaw leaves your life, and maybe a new version, or somebody else will enter, will you miss?
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SPEAKER_01
For guys that have these sex robots, they re building a nursing home for the bodies that are now rusting because they don t want to part with the bodies because they have such an intense emotional connection to it.
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I mean, it s kind of like a car club a little bit, you know, like it s, you know, but
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I m not saying this is right, I m not saying it s cool, it s weird, it s creepy, but we do anthropomorphize things with faces and we do develop emotional connections to things.
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SPEAKER_01
I mean, there s certain... Have you ever tried to, like, throw away... I can t even throw away my teddy bear from when I was a kid.
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SPEAKER_01
It s a piece of trash.
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And it s upstairs.
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Like, it s just like, why can t I throw that away?
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It s bizarre.
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You know, and there s something kind of beautiful about that.
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There s something it gives me hope in in humans, because I see humans do such horrific things all the time.
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And maybe I m too I see too much of it, frankly, but there s something kind of beautiful about the way we re able to have emotional connections to objects, which, you know,
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a lot of, I mean, it s kind of specifically, I think, Western, right, that we don t see objects as having souls, like that s kind of specifically us.
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SPEAKER_01
But I don t think it s so much that we re objectifying humans with these sex robots, we re kind of humanizing objects, right?
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SPEAKER_01
So there s something kind of fascinating in our ability to do that, because a lot of us don t humanize humans.
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So it s just a weird little place to play in.
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And I think a lot of people, I mean, a lot of people will be marrying these things, is my guess.
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SPEAKER_00
So you ve asked the question, let me ask it of you.
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SPEAKER_00
So what is love?
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SPEAKER_00
You have a bit of a brilliant definition of love as being willing to die for someone who you yourself want to kill.
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SPEAKER_00
So that s kind of fun.
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SPEAKER_00
First of all, that s brilliant.
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SPEAKER_00
That s a really good definition.
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SPEAKER_00
I don t think it ll stick with me for a long time.
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This is how little of a romantic I am.
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SPEAKER_01
A plane went by when you said that.
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And my brain is like, you re going to need to rerecord that.
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I don t want you to get into post and then not be able to use it.
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And I m a romanticist.
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I don t mean to ruin the moment.
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Actually, I cannot be conscious of the fact that I heard the plane and it made me feel like how amazing it is that we live in a world with planes.
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SPEAKER_01
And I just went, why haven t we fucking evolved past planes?
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SPEAKER_01
And why can t they make them quieter?
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
Well, yes, this my definition of what what?
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
What s your sort of the most serious producing dopamine for a long time?
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SPEAKER_01
Consistent output of oxytocin with the same person.
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SPEAKER_00
Dopamine is a positive thing.
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SPEAKER_00
What about the negative?
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SPEAKER_00
What about the fear and the insecurity, the longing, anger, all that kind of stuff?
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SPEAKER_01
I think that s part of love.
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SPEAKER_01
I think that love brings out the best in you, but it also, if you don t get angry and upset, it s, I don t know, I think that that s part of it.
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SPEAKER_01
I think we have this idea that love has to be really placid or something.
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I only saw stormy relationships growing up, so I don t have a judgment on how a relationship should look, but I do think that this idea that love has to be eternal is really destructive.
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It s really destructive and self-defeating and a big source of stress for people.
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SPEAKER_01
I mean, I m still figuring out love.
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I think we all kind of are, but I do kind of stand by that definition.
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SPEAKER_01
And I think that, I think for me, love is like just being able to be authentic with somebody.
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It s very simple, I know, but I think for me, it s about not feeling pressure to have to perform or impress somebody, just feeling truly like accepted unconditionally by someone.
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SPEAKER_01
Although I do believe love should be conditional.
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SPEAKER_01
That might be a hot take.
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SPEAKER_01
I think everything should be conditional.
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SPEAKER_01
I think if,
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someone s behavior.
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I don t think love should just be like, I m in love with you now behave however you want forever.
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This is unconditional.
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I think love is a daily action.
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SPEAKER_01
It s not something you just like, get tenure on and then get to behave however you want because we said I love you 10 years ago.
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SPEAKER_01
It s a daily it s a verb.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, there s some things that are, you see, if you make it, if you explicitly make it clear that it s conditional, it takes away some of the magic of it.
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SPEAKER_00
So there s certain stories we tell ourselves that we don t want to make explicit about love.
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SPEAKER_00
I don t know, maybe that s the wrong way to think of it.
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SPEAKER_00
Maybe you want to be explicit in relationships.
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SPEAKER_01
I also think love is a business decision.
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SPEAKER_01
Like, I do, in a good way.
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SPEAKER_01
Like,
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I think that love is not just when you re across from somebody.
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SPEAKER_01
It s when I go to work, can I focus?
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SPEAKER_01
Am I worried about you?
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SPEAKER_01
Am I stressed out about you?
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SPEAKER_01
You re not responding to me.
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SPEAKER_01
You re not reliable.
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I think that being in a relationship, the kind of love that I would want is the kind of relationship where when we re not together, it s not draining me, causing me stress, making me worry, and sometimes passion, that word.
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SPEAKER_01
get murky about it, but I think it s also like I can be the best version of myself when the person s not around and I don t have to feel abandoned or scared or any of these kind of other things.
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So it s like love, you know, for me, I think it s a Flaubert quote and I m going to butcher it, but I think it s like be, you know, boring in your personal life so you can be violent and take risks in your professional life.
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SPEAKER_01
Is that it?
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SPEAKER_01
I got it wrong.
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SPEAKER_01
Something like that.
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SPEAKER_01
But I do think that it s being able to align values in a way to where you can also thrive outside of the relationship.
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SPEAKER_00
some of the most successful people I know are those sort of happily married and have kids and so on.
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SPEAKER_00
It s always funny.
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SPEAKER_01
It can be boring.
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SPEAKER_01
Boring s okay.
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Boring is serenity.
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SPEAKER_00
And it s funny how those elements actually make you much more productive.
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SPEAKER_01
I don t understand the- I don t think relationships should drain you and take away energy that you could be using to create things that generate pride.
3
SPEAKER_01
Did you say your relationship of love yet?
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SPEAKER_01
Have you said your definition of love?
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SPEAKER_00
My definition of love?
3
SPEAKER_00
No, I did not say it.
3
SPEAKER_00
We re out of time.
3
SPEAKER_00
When you have a podcast, maybe you can invite me on.
3
SPEAKER_00
We ll talk about it.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh, no, I already did.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re doing it.
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SPEAKER_01
We ve already talked about this.
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SPEAKER_00
And because I also have codependency, I have to say yes.
3
SPEAKER_01
No, yeah, I m trapping you.
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SPEAKER_00
You owe me now.
3
SPEAKER_00
Actually,
3
SPEAKER_00
I wondered whether when I asked if we could talk today, after sort of doing more research and reading some of your book, I started to wonder, did she just feel pressured to say yes?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes, of course.
3
SPEAKER_00
Good.
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SPEAKER_00
But I m a fan of yours too.
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SPEAKER_01
No, I actually, because I am codependent, but I m in recovery for codependence, so I actually do, I don t do anything I don t want to do.
3
SPEAKER_00
You really, you gotta, you gotta say no.
3
SPEAKER_00
What s that?
3
SPEAKER_00
I say no all the time.
3
SPEAKER_00
Good, I m trying to learn that as well.
3
SPEAKER_01
I moved this a couple, remember I moved it from one to two?
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, just to, yeah, just to, I love it.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, just to let you know how recovered I am and I m not gonna defend it.
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SPEAKER_01
But I don t do anything I don t wanna do.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you re ahead of me on that, okay.
3
SPEAKER_01
So do you, You re like, I don t even wanna be here.
3
SPEAKER_00
Do you think about your mortality?
3
SPEAKER_01
Yes, it is a big part of how I was able to sort of like kickstart my codependence recovery.
3
SPEAKER_01
My dad passed a couple years ago and when you have someone close to you in your life die, everything gets real clear in terms of how we re a speck of dust who s only here for a certain amount of time.
3
SPEAKER_00
What do you think is the meaning of it all?
3
SPEAKER_00
Like what the speck of dust, what s maybe in your own life, what s the goal, the purpose of your existence?
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SPEAKER_01
Is there one?
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, you re exceptionally ambitious.
3
SPEAKER_00
You ve created some incredible things in different disciplines.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, we re all just managing our terror, because we know we re gonna die.
3
SPEAKER_01
So we create and build all these things, and rituals, and religions, and robots, and whatever we need to do to just distract ourselves from imminent rotting.
3
SPEAKER_01
We re rotting.
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SPEAKER_01
We re all dying.
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SPEAKER_01
I got very into terror management theory
3
SPEAKER_01
when my dad died and it resonated, it helped me and everyone s got their own religion or sense of purpose or thing that distracts them from the horrors of being human.
3
SPEAKER_00
What s the terror management theory?
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SPEAKER_01
Terror management is basically the idea that
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SPEAKER_01
since we re the only animal that knows they re going to die, we have to basically distract ourselves with awards and achievements and games and whatever just in order to distract ourselves from the terror we would feel if we really processed the fact that we could not only we are going to die, but also could die at any minute because we re only
4
SPEAKER_01
superficially at the top of the food chain.
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SPEAKER_01
And technically, we re at the top of the food chain if we have houses and guns and stuff, machines.
4
SPEAKER_01
But if me and a lion are in the woods together, most things could kill us.
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SPEAKER_01
I mean, a bee can kill some people.
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SPEAKER_01
Something this big can kill a lot of humans.
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SPEAKER_01
So it s basically just to manage the terror that we all would feel if we were able to really be
4
SPEAKER_01
awake, because we re mostly zombies, right?
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SPEAKER_01
Job, school, religion, go to sleep, drink, football, relationship, dopamine, love, you know, we re kind of just like trudging along, like zombies for the most part.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then I think that fear of death adds some motivation.
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SPEAKER_01
Yes.
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SPEAKER_00
Well, I think I speak for a lot of people in saying that I can t wait to see what your terror creates.
4
SPEAKER_00
In the next few years, I m a huge fan.
4
SPEAKER_00
Whitney, thank you so much for talking today.
4
SPEAKER_00
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Whitney Cummings.
4
SPEAKER_00
And thank you to our presenting sponsor, Cash App.
4
SPEAKER_00
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SPEAKER_00
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SPEAKER_00
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4
SPEAKER_00
Thank you for listening, and I hope to see you next time.