0
SPEAKER_01
Welcome to the School of Greatness.
0
SPEAKER_01
My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur.
0
SPEAKER_01
And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness.
0
SPEAKER_01
Thanks for spending some time with me today.
0
SPEAKER_01
Now let the class begin.
0
SPEAKER_01
Welcome back, everyone at School of Greatness.
0
SPEAKER_01
We have the inspiring Alex Honnold in the house.
0
SPEAKER_01
Good to see you, sir.
0
SPEAKER_01
Welcome to the show.
0
SPEAKER_01
I have to read this really quick so people can understand how inspiring of an athlete and human being you are.
0
SPEAKER_01
More people will walk on the moon than will do what Alex Honnold has done.
0
SPEAKER_01
For me, just reading that in your bio, I was like, this is unbelievable.
0
SPEAKER_01
Because not many people in the world can do or ever will do what you ve done.
0
SPEAKER_01
And I m curious if you could explain to people that don t know anything about you what it is you actually do that you think makes you so great.
0
SPEAKER_00
Well, so, I mean, I m a professional rock climber, and I ve rocked my whole life.
0
SPEAKER_00
I mean, the thing that I m most well-known for is free soloing, which is climbing without a rope.
0
SPEAKER_00
And, I mean, I think the quote that you just read is specifically referring to free soloing El Cap, which is a wall in Yosemite National Park, which, to date, I m the only person to have done.
0
SPEAKER_01
No one s ever done it again, still?
0
SPEAKER_00
No, no, no.
0
SPEAKER_00
No.
0
SPEAKER_01
And what is it you actually did?
0
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I watched the documentary, it was incredible, but for those that haven t seen it.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yes, the documentary Free Solar kind of covers it, but Free Solar at El Capitan, which is a 3,000-foot granite wall.
0
SPEAKER_00
So yeah, climbing this big wall without a rope.
0
SPEAKER_00
Without a rope.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_00
Which was very challenging.
0
SPEAKER_00
It s funny, now it s been a little while, and I m like, oh yeah, it s just climbing.
0
SPEAKER_00
I did this thing.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I did this thing climbing.
0
SPEAKER_00
But no, it was something that I was working on for many, many years.
0
SPEAKER_00
sort of dreaming about for many years before that.
0
SPEAKER_01
And how long did the actual climb take?
0
SPEAKER_00
The actual climb took, I think, 356, so almost four hours.
0
SPEAKER_00
Four hours.
0
SPEAKER_00
Which, for context, the average party climbing all cabins, so typically you climb that 3,000-foot wall with ropes and equipment, and people normally camp on the wall, and they normally spend three to five days on the wall.
0
SPEAKER_01
Really?
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_01
So they take three to five days, you get it in under four hours.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, but it s kind of like the difference between ultra running and backpacking, where it s like, once you decide not to take all the camping stuff, then it becomes ultra running and you d wind up going a lot faster.
0
SPEAKER_00
Right.
0
SPEAKER_00
So some of it is just a product of the style.
0
SPEAKER_00
Like by choosing to go without ropes, you just wind up going a lot faster.
0
SPEAKER_00
You have to.
0
SPEAKER_00
But it s obviously a lot more extreme to go without ropes.
0
SPEAKER_01
So has anyone attempted, but they ve come down?
0
SPEAKER_00
No, no.
0
SPEAKER_00
I don t even think anybody s playing in that space right now.
0
SPEAKER_00
Really?
0
SPEAKER_00
Nobody s really doing anything quite like that.
0
SPEAKER_01
Why is that?
0
SPEAKER_01
And why is no one else trying to do that?
0
SPEAKER_01
And why were you so curious to do something like that with no rope?
0
SPEAKER_00
there just aren t that many people free soloing right now.
0
SPEAKER_00
And part of that, I mean, part of that might be broader trends in the climbing world, like climbing, climbing went into the Olympics in 2020 in Tokyo.
0
SPEAKER_00
And so right now I think the sort of cutting edge of rock climbing is more on the competition front and, uh, you know, the Olympics and world cups and things like that.
0
SPEAKER_00
And so I think that a lot of the talent in climbing right now is sort of focused on competitions.
0
SPEAKER_00
Whereas when I was growing up,
0
SPEAKER_00
I think some of the sort of cultural, the coolness in climbing was more around speed climbing and big wall climbing and free soloing and things like that, like more the adventure side of climbing.
0
SPEAKER_00
But if you think of climbing as a spectrum between sort of athleticism and adventure,
0
SPEAKER_00
Like I grew up and the pendulum has shifted slightly more on the adventure side.
0
SPEAKER_00
Right now I think it s slightly more shifted on the athleticism side, which I think is maybe part of the reason that fewer people are doing big wall solos and more people are going to the Olympics.
0
SPEAKER_00
But whatever, I mean, that s just the way a sport grows up.
0
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I think the main thing is just that nobody is really doing that much free soloing right now.
0
SPEAKER_01
In general, not even just like smaller walls or smaller mountains.
0
SPEAKER_00
Well, there must be people doing some stuff that I don t know that much about, but there s just nobody.
0
SPEAKER_00
Well, okay, so, you know, when you ask, like, has anyone free-soiled El Cap?
0
SPEAKER_00
I m kind of like, man, for me to free-soil El Cap took this very long journey, and I did maybe 30 or 40 other big walls around the world that sort of led up to it.
0
SPEAKER_00
El Cap is a very particular kind of challenge, and so to tackle that kind of thing, you start by climbing smaller walls or slightly more difficult walls or, you know, walls that are maybe smaller but harder in some way or smaller and easier in other ways.
0
SPEAKER_00
And, you know, basically you mix and match all these pieces until eventually you feel comfortable doing something that big.
0
SPEAKER_00
And that takes years.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that took like years and years.
0
SPEAKER_00
But at this point, nobody s even done any of those other pieces.
0
SPEAKER_00
Like of the 30-ish things that I did to lead up to El Cap, nobody s actually repeated any of them.
0
SPEAKER_00
So, you know, when you re like, oh, has anyone done El Cap?
0
SPEAKER_00
I m like, well, no, nobody s even started down the path.
0
SPEAKER_00
Like nobody s even... Wow.
0
SPEAKER_00
Nobody s even aiming in that direction.
0
SPEAKER_01
So people are still climbing El Cap with ropes.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah.
0
SPEAKER_00
People climb El Cap all the time.
0
SPEAKER_01
All the time with ropes.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_00
But no one s...
0
SPEAKER_00
tried it or completed it without ropes?
0
SPEAKER_00
No, freestalling is a completely different thing.
0
SPEAKER_01
Wow, man.
0
SPEAKER_00
I mean, climbing it with a rope obviously requires a degree of skill and you have to be a skilled climber, but it s by no means elite, like any average person with, who s like read enough books.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you could easily.
0
SPEAKER_00
Really?
0
SPEAKER_00
You could climb El Cap with a rope.
0
SPEAKER_00
Come on.
0
SPEAKER_00
No way.
0
SPEAKER_00
I mean, it would be the biggest adventure of your life.
0
SPEAKER_00
You d spend five days on the wall, you d come out totally haggard, but you could do it.
0
SPEAKER_00
Really?
0
SPEAKER_01
It seems like it s a straight up wall though, I mean with like very little, you know.
0
SPEAKER_01
I m so big though, I m 230 pounds, how am I going to hold myself up?
0
SPEAKER_00
So if the two of us went up El Cap together and I was able to lead more of it, you d be able to ascend ropes, you d be able to camp on the ledge.
0
SPEAKER_00
Really?
0
SPEAKER_00
You could get up it, yeah.
0
SPEAKER_00
You d be worked, you know, like it would be hard for me to do it, you know Wow, but the difference between that and freestalling the difference that and climbing without a rope is vast like yeah that I would argue you ll never do it.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah I don t even know if I could climb like 30 feet without it without a rope on anything, you know Unless it was like I could walk it
0
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I think that anybody can learn how to climb to a high level if they re interested and passionate about it, you know, if they re curious.
0
SPEAKER_00
But then there s another step between that and then free-souling walls.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
0
SPEAKER_00
Because that s like, sort of, you have to devote your, like, devote your life to it.
0
SPEAKER_00
It s like a craft, you know.
0
SPEAKER_01
When did you first think, like, I want to do climbing in general?
0
SPEAKER_01
How old were you?
0
SPEAKER_01
Was there something you saw or someone that experienced it with you that you were like, oh, this is something I m really interested in?
0
SPEAKER_00
No, there wasn t like a specific moment.
0
SPEAKER_00
I just always liked climbing.
0
SPEAKER_00
And now I have a daughter who will be two soon and she climbs on things all the time and it s really hard to tell how much that s nature versus nurture because she sees, you know, her mother and father climbing all the time and basically everybody around her climbs all the time.
0
SPEAKER_00
Part of that is probably just her being influenced by the people she s around, but also she seems particularly into clambering on things.
0
SPEAKER_00
And it makes me think that that s probably just how I was as a child.
0
SPEAKER_00
Because I got into rock climbing because my parents took me to a climbing gym when I was 10.
0
SPEAKER_00
But it s because I ve been climbing trees and buildings and like things my whole life.
0
SPEAKER_01
Before that.
0
SPEAKER_01
Before that.
0
SPEAKER_01
You were climbing, so like, okay, let s put him into this.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I was like, yeah, I was really in, you know, I was the kid that was always running across the top of the monkey bars, because you re like, oh, look, I can balance, you know, like that kind of just testing yourself on cool things.
0
SPEAKER_00
And so my parents thought that the climbing gym would be a safer outlet and so they took me in to learn.
0
SPEAKER_01
Did you ever have any like big falls as a kid when you were climbing trees or the monkey bars?
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I broke my arm twice as a little kid.
0
SPEAKER_00
Really?
0
SPEAKER_00
Like before I learned how to rock climb, I fell off a play structure, two different play structure things and broke my arm twice.
0
SPEAKER_00
And then I also broke my arm again at the climbing gym when I was a teenager.
0
SPEAKER_01
Did that pain ever hold you back from thinking, ah, maybe this isn t for me?
0
SPEAKER_00
No, no, if anything, you just learn that a broken wrist, it s like no big deal.
0
SPEAKER_00
And like six weeks later, you re totally fine.
0
SPEAKER_00
It s like, yeah, it s no thing.
0
SPEAKER_01
Was there ever a time?
0
SPEAKER_00
I mean, and I fell out of so many trees.
0
SPEAKER_00
Really?
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I mean, yeah, when you re a kid learning how to climb stuff, you just fall down all the time.
0
SPEAKER_01
But you never were afraid to fall?
0
SPEAKER_00
Well, no, I think I was afraid to fall.
0
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I don t want to get hurt, but I really like climbing things.
0
SPEAKER_00
And you always think that you re going to make it.
0
SPEAKER_00
You know, it s like, you never think you re going to fall off.
0
SPEAKER_01
Was there ever a climb that you did that is supposed to be really easy, like almost the most basic climb ever, like someone like me could do it easily or someone, you know, maybe someone with some beginner skills could do this easily, that you thought you got into a very sticky situation where you thought, oh, I m in a bad situation and I could actually fall and potentially die?
0
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I ve been in a lot of sticky situations.
0
SPEAKER_00
I m not sure if any of them were on things that
0
SPEAKER_00
should have, they were actually that easy.
0
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I guess the challenge though is that if you think something should be easy for you and then it winds up being just a little bit harder than you think it should be, you know, when your expectations mismatch reality, then that can be
0
SPEAKER_00
I mean the thing with free-souling is so much of it is psychological.
0
SPEAKER_00
So anytime your experience doesn t match or like your expectations don t match the reality, then it s easy to get out of control mentally a little bit because if you start to get scared, you start to second-guess, you start to hesitate.
0
SPEAKER_00
Like all of those things, none of those things help your performance.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it can start to be sort of a negative spiral where it gets quite scary.
1
SPEAKER_01
What do you think has helped you keep your mindset so clear under challenging situations?
1
SPEAKER_01
Is it the mental preparation?
1
SPEAKER_01
Is it the physical preparation?
1
SPEAKER_01
Is it just being present in the moment?
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, part of it, I think there are a couple of things.
1
SPEAKER_00
One is experience, like being in situations like that, like basically getting really scared and then managing to maintain some degree of self-control when you re really scared is a bit of an acquired skill.
1
SPEAKER_00
You just have to get scared over and over.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, people ask all the time, like, oh, you know, you don t feel fear.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m like, no, of course I feel fear.
1
SPEAKER_00
I ve just gotten scared so much.
1
SPEAKER_00
You just get used to it.
1
SPEAKER_01
When you feel fear, like when you re like, oh, I m in a very scary situation, what goes through your mind and how do you get out of it?
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, I think a lot of the time I experience the same things everybody else does, which is like
1
SPEAKER_00
anger, tenseness, like, Oh, I hate this.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, why am I here?
1
SPEAKER_00
Why is it like, why is this happening to me?
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, like, I don t know if, if you re in some tricky situation, climate, it starts to rain and all of a sudden, like now it s really bad.
1
SPEAKER_00
And you re like, Oh, I m so screwed.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, you start like bargaining.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, what are all the stages of denial and grief and all the things you go through the whole list of like, Oh, why?
1
SPEAKER_00
And then at a certain point you re like, I m on this cliff and it s raining.
1
SPEAKER_00
No amount of anything is going to change that.
1
SPEAKER_00
You just need to deal.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then you either go up or you go down, or you figure it out.
1
SPEAKER_01
Were you pretty self-taught on your mental conditioning, mental training, and mindset around all these things?
1
SPEAKER_01
Or did you have mentors and teachers or friends give you these psychological skills?
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, I mean, I d say I m largely self-taught, but it s not exactly self-taught, like thinking about it and figuring it out.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s more like having experiences and just seeing what works over time.
1
SPEAKER_00
But also, I mean, I ve always cast a wide net.
1
SPEAKER_00
I ve read all the books about climbing.
1
SPEAKER_00
I ve read all the, you know, books on mental coaching.
1
SPEAKER_00
But the thing is, when I was growing up as a climber, there were far fewer resources for that kind of thing because climbing was just a smaller sport.
1
SPEAKER_00
Now, there s a lot more available.
1
SPEAKER_00
But at the time, there were a handful of books.
1
SPEAKER_00
I obviously read them all.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I read all the climbing magazines.
1
SPEAKER_00
And you d read all the stories.
1
SPEAKER_00
You d read people s memoirs.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, a lot of the things you can learn are from other people s experiences in the mountains.
1
SPEAKER_00
And somebody else has some harrowing experience.
1
SPEAKER_00
And you re like, oh, well.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don t want to do that.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Or it s like, I see how he survived.
1
SPEAKER_00
I should try to do the same thing if that ever happens to me.
1
SPEAKER_00
Let s hope it never happens.
1
SPEAKER_01
Who has been your biggest teacher around your mindset in this world?
1
SPEAKER_00
I honestly don t even know.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, there are very few people who free solo.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so you don t really talk to other people doing the exact same thing.
1
SPEAKER_00
So it s more like you apply lessons from like the other edges of climbing.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because you can get really, really scared climbing with a rope.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like most of my scariest experiences climbing have actually been with a rope on.
1
SPEAKER_00
Really?
1
SPEAKER_00
Because having a rope tied to your harness doesn t mean that you re actually connected to the wall safely.
1
SPEAKER_00
That you still have to place gear into the rock and secure yourself with anchors and things.
1
SPEAKER_01
Because if you don t have an anchor, you could fall down and swing and hit your head.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so like, you know, have you climbed before at all?
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean like a rock climbing gym or something.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like have you ever watched a climbing movie?
1
SPEAKER_00
So like you tie into the rope and then you start setting out up the wall.
1
SPEAKER_00
And as you go up the wall, you have to place protection as you go.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so sometimes, say the rock quality is really bad, and so you can t get good protection for 20 feet, 30 feet, 40 feet.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so if you re 40 feet above your last piece, that means you re looking at like an 80 foot plus fall, you know, cause you d fall the distance plus that much passing.
1
SPEAKER_00
The rope afterwards.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s double the distance to your last piece.
1
SPEAKER_01
You could die from that probably.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
1
SPEAKER_00
So if you re taking an 80 foot fall, you realistically, you know, like you could die.
1
SPEAKER_01
And then how do you get down?
1
SPEAKER_01
What if you fall, break your arm, or hit your head?
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, how do you get down?
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, that becomes the stuff of legends, you know?
1
SPEAKER_00
Then it s like some harrowing survival story, and that s what you read in people s books and stuff.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, one arm, I was, like, climbing.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, no, there are all these legendary stories from climbing, like, some people climbing on the south face of Half Dome, which is, like, a very big wall in Yosemite.
1
SPEAKER_00
But the guy fell, broke both his ankles, and then they had to extricate themselves from the wall, and then he crawled all the way back down the trail with two broken ankles.
1
SPEAKER_00
What?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, which is, like, a, you know, seven-mile crawl back down to the valley floor.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so anyway, you know, I grew up reading all these stories and reading about these kinds of things.
1
SPEAKER_00
So all that to say.
1
SPEAKER_00
many of the scariest experiences are with a rope on, because having the rope doesn t make you inherently safe, you still need protection.
1
SPEAKER_00
But the thing is, when you do have a rope, you re much more willing to push into the unknown, because you re like, surely I ll get to good protection eventually.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, you have all this gear on you, you re like, eventually I ll get somewhere where I can use this, like, I m sure it ll get better.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it s easy to sucker yourself into positions of true fear, because you re like, I m a little scared now, but I m sure it ll get better, and you keep going, and you re like, well no, I m more scared, but it s gotta get better, and so you keep going, keep going.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s like a,
1
SPEAKER_00
It s like a sunken Kasbah apology, like throwing good money after bad.
1
SPEAKER_01
What s the farthest you ve gone without having to like, I guess, plug in?
1
SPEAKER_01
Without an anchor?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, so, uh, doing a first ascent in Africa, um, I went like the full length of the rope, like 70 meters.
1
SPEAKER_00
So 230 feet without, without any gear.
1
SPEAKER_00
Cause so we d eyeballed this, this feature of this, this big granite dome, um, in Angola.
1
SPEAKER_00
And, um,
1
SPEAKER_00
And from the ground, we thought that the dome was like maybe 500 feet high, and we thought that the big crack that we were looking at would be like a hand crate, like something you put your hands into.
1
SPEAKER_00
It turns out that the mountain itself was more like 1,000 or 1,500 feet high, and so the thing that looked like a crack was actually like a giant man-sized chimney, so it was like bigger than this table.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so it meant that, you know, you have all this climbing gear that would normally fit into a space like the size of this cup and then the crack is the base size of the table and you re like, oh no.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so I wound up going a full 230 feet up a thing like that with no protection.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then by sheer miracle of nature, there was a giant rock wedged inside the chimney at a certain point.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I was able to sit down on that and sort of anchor myself to the rock and then bring my partner up and then do it again.
1
SPEAKER_01
Holy cow, man.
1
SPEAKER_01
But yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
So how many feet was that?
1
SPEAKER_01
Like 230.
1
SPEAKER_01
230 feet with no anchor.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
So, in theory, if you fell, you would take a 400 and... You re dead.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, it would be a disaster.
1
SPEAKER_00
You re dead.
1
SPEAKER_01
Was there ever a point where you re like, oh, I m going too far now.
1
SPEAKER_01
There s nowhere to anchor.
1
SPEAKER_01
If I slip, I m out.
1
SPEAKER_01
Or do you not have those thoughts?
1
SPEAKER_00
No, no.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, you have those thoughts.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, you should definitely be aware that if you make a mistake, you re going to die.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, and that s the thing with climbing is that you always have this ongoing dialogue around risk because you should know when it s okay to fall and when it s not okay to fall.
1
SPEAKER_01
At that point, there was no... It wasn t okay to fall at that point.
1
SPEAKER_00
But that means that you should climb a lot more carefully.
1
SPEAKER_00
And you should be very careful about what you grab and how you grab it.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because if you ve just placed protection and you know you re totally safe, then you should take risks.
1
SPEAKER_00
You can just grab things.
1
SPEAKER_00
You can move a little faster.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, you don t have to spend a lot of time thinking about everything you do because you re totally safe.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
And the rock is good enough to anchor in different places.
1
SPEAKER_01
You know you can anchor a few feet or something.
1
SPEAKER_00
If you know you re safe, you should just move confidently and move with ease.
1
SPEAKER_00
But if you know you re going to die, you should probably move pretty freaking carefully.
1
SPEAKER_00
Is it harder to go up or to go down?
1
SPEAKER_00
Something like that.
1
SPEAKER_00
It depends.
1
SPEAKER_00
Actually chimneys like big wide thing like that is actually slightly easier to go down because it s gravity assisted.
1
SPEAKER_00
You just kind of like ease up the pressure and you just slide back down.
1
SPEAKER_01
But that s... So this is kind of like a chimney where your feet are against the wall and your back is against the wall.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
1
SPEAKER_00
What if the chimney is too big and you re like... Then it starts to get really scary.
1
SPEAKER_01
And you re like inches holding on, like going up.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, no, I mean, if you have to go to like full body spin, then it s really, really hard.
1
SPEAKER_00
Have you ever done that before?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, but... Not that far up, probably.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
I mean, this is crazy.
1
SPEAKER_01
So, I feel like it d be almost harder going down.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like trying to see where the holds are and then you have to unhook essentially, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
It depends on what exactly you re doing.
1
SPEAKER_00
But oftentimes going down actually isn t...
1
SPEAKER_00
is easier in some ways because when you look down, you can see all the holds.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because sometimes when you re looking up a rock wall, it s really hard to see, you know, what s an in-cut, like what s a positive edge and what isn t.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, it just all looks like blank rock.
1
SPEAKER_00
But when you re looking down at often, you can see all the little edges and things sometimes.
1
SPEAKER_00
But then on the other hand, when you re looking down, you re leading with your feet, which are further away and it s kind of hard to see.
1
SPEAKER_00
Whereas when you re going up, you re looking at your next hand holds, it s all within this tight field of vision.
1
SPEAKER_00
Just depends.
1
SPEAKER_01
This is fascinating, man.
1
SPEAKER_00
Now, you have to go to a climbing gym and practice.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh my gosh.
1
SPEAKER_01
I m so big though.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s so hard.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don t think it matters.
1
SPEAKER_00
Really?
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
So, for low angle climbing, like something 90 degrees or less, you re putting all your weight on your feet anyway.
1
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_01
And there s big like things to hold on to.
1
SPEAKER_00
Even if they re really small holds, the idea is that you transfer as much weight as possible off your feet and it s like climbing a staircase.
1
SPEAKER_00
So, I mean, just because you re big, I mean, you can still climb stairs I assume.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
Is it that easy though at like a rock climbing gym?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Somebody with good technique should be climbing.
1
SPEAKER_00
So, I ve heard described as when you climb a staircase, you use the handrails, but you use them for balance, not to pull yourself up.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right.
1
SPEAKER_00
And climbing should be the same way, basically.
1
SPEAKER_00
That the handholds are basically for balance and you still drive with your legs.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, that changes a little bit if the wall gets more than vertical.
1
SPEAKER_00
Sure.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because then obviously you re hanging from your arms and then it does, it is harder to be really big and heavy.
1
SPEAKER_00
But, you know, but being big and strong helps.
1
SPEAKER_01
So really, you know, I think the only time, the only chance that I would actually go to a rock climbing gym is if you were there to like give me some advice and coach me up the wall that I d be like, okay, maybe I could do this.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think, I think it d be easier for you than you think.
1
SPEAKER_00
You have an athletic background.
1
SPEAKER_01
You re like, you know, but I feel like my hands, my arms get so tired.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like years ago, you re using them too much.
1
SPEAKER_00
Uh,
2
SPEAKER_00
As opposed to my feet.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, stand on your feet and then use your hands for balance.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, be able to relax your hands and just use them to keep your... And be close to the wall, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, close to the wall.
2
SPEAKER_02
That s what I remember.
2
SPEAKER_02
It was just so hard.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
I was just trying to muscle myself up as opposed to using my feet.
2
SPEAKER_00
But that s a common thing if you re already a big, strong man.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re like, oh, use my big muscles because I have them.
2
SPEAKER_00
And they re exhausted.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
2
SPEAKER_00
But they get tired so fast.
2
SPEAKER_02
So it s all in the feet.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s all in the feet.
2
SPEAKER_02
I read somewhere about you doing a brain scan and having like the fear signal in your brain less than others.
2
SPEAKER_02
Is that true?
2
SPEAKER_00
Sort of.
2
SPEAKER_00
Not exactly.
2
SPEAKER_00
So that s also a scene in the film Free Solo, in the documentary.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that was taken from a science journalist.
2
SPEAKER_00
We did this profile thing where we went and used an fMRI and basically like looking at images while in fMRI and you see like a brain scan.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the takeaway was that yes, while doing this battery of images, my brain didn t light up the way that others do, but the conclusion was more that I had
2
SPEAKER_00
probably desensitize myself to that level of stimulus over years of exposure.
2
SPEAKER_00
So not so much like my brain is missing a piece, which I think is the simplistic, like a lot of people are like, oh, there s something wrong with you.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re like, no, I think the real takeaway is that through, you know, chronic desensitization,
2
SPEAKER_00
Like I m just no longer, like I need a different level of stimulus.
2
SPEAKER_00
Gotcha.
2
SPEAKER_00
Which to me makes total sense.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, and also, and you see that like in monks and things like that.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, people will change their brain in all kinds of ways if you do the same type of activity for long enough.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I wouldn t be surprised if it was a little bit of both, nature and nurture, where I was probably a little less sensitive to that stuff to begin with, which is probably why I like free soloing and doing some of these other things climbing wise.
2
SPEAKER_00
But then I ve also spent 15, at that point, you know, I d spent 15 years doing it all the time.
2
SPEAKER_00
and so naturally got more comfortable with it.
2
SPEAKER_02
A lot of people that come to watch this show or listen, not everyone, but a lot of people struggle with the fear of failure, the fear of going after their goals, going after their dreams and failing and either being embarrassed by it or just feeling bad about it and that
2
SPEAKER_02
that fear that they re holding onto makes them unable to take action.
2
SPEAKER_02
How do you think people can overcome their fears better?
2
SPEAKER_02
Is it only through taking action over and over and kind of desensitizing yourself to the emotions and the feelings around failure?
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, that is a good way to do it, I suppose.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I mean, one way I think that you see in climbing a lot is just starting by deciding whether or not your fears are rational or well-founded.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, in climbing it s a little bit easier because your fear is often physical, like it s based on some physical thing, like you re actually in real danger as opposed to sort of psychological, like fear of failure and things like that.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I think it s easy to start with like, is this a rational fear?
2
SPEAKER_00
Does this make sense?
2
SPEAKER_00
And in some ways that actually makes more sense for the psychological things because if you re like, oh, I m afraid because my friends will make fun of me.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, maybe you should really think about it like, will your friends make fun of you for taking your shot at your dream?
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, no, your friends, if they re real friends, they re going to be pretty psyched for you.
2
SPEAKER_00
And they ll be, you know, bummed that it didn t work out, but they ll be impressed that you tried and they ll respect the effort.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, it s like, I think that that s maybe the place to start is like, is this a well founded fear?
2
SPEAKER_00
In climbing, a lot of the time when you evaluate your fears, they often are well-founded, like if you fail, you will die or whatever, like if you slip, you ll die.
2
SPEAKER_00
You ll get hurt at least, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and so in those cases, it makes sense by starting by addressing them how you can, mitigating the danger, minimizing the risk, doing whatever you can to make it safer so that you won t be as afraid.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, that s why I think talking about fear is complicated because it s like, yeah, sometimes you should ignore it, you should push past it, you should suppress it, you should do whatever.
2
SPEAKER_00
But a lot of the time, you should probably address the root cause of the fear.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, a lot of the time, you re afraid because you re actually in danger or because, like, something terrible.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, like, people being afraid of snakes and spiders, I mean, that s often well-founded because there are many places in the world where you will die if you interact with the wrong little creature.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
But depending on where you live,
2
SPEAKER_00
you should know because a lot of them aren t that dangerous.
2
SPEAKER_00
And in that case, it doesn t really make sense to be that afraid.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
What are you most afraid of these days?
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t know.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, death, I guess.
2
SPEAKER_00
Are you afraid of death?
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, yeah, I d say I m afraid of severe pain.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I don t like feeling pain any more than anybody else, really.
2
SPEAKER_02
Were you afraid of death before you started the family?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I mean, I never wanted to die.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I love being alive.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, the thing with free-souling is it s not like a death wish.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, in some ways, the real pleasure of free-souling is taking something that seems like it should be really, really scary and then making it feel safe.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because like on your best climbs, you feel good while you re doing it, but you re doing something that seems like it should be very, very scary.
2
SPEAKER_00
But, you know, that s what makes it magical is because it doesn t feel scary when you do it well.
2
SPEAKER_02
Right.
2
SPEAKER_02
But before you got, you know, before you started having a family, did you look at your profession differently than after having a family?
2
SPEAKER_00
Not so far, but I mean right now, you know, my daughter will be too soon and I feel like we re just starting to have like a nice relationship Maybe in the last six months.
2
SPEAKER_00
I feel like we re actually community, you know, we re having a good time bond.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
We re like You re just like my buddy, you know, it s awesome.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so I wouldn t be surprised if
2
SPEAKER_00
if as that relationship grows, you know, my perspective around risk and climbing has changed a little bit.
2
SPEAKER_00
Really?
2
SPEAKER_00
But maybe not because I, you know, because I ve been in serious relationships with romantic partners throughout all the hardest climbing I ve done.
2
SPEAKER_00
So.
2
SPEAKER_02
And didn t change the way you would address like the things you wanted to tackle and take on?
2
SPEAKER_00
No, not really.
2
SPEAKER_02
Really?
2
SPEAKER_00
Though I wouldn t be surprised, though, if children, like having dependents is a little bit different.
2
SPEAKER_00
Just because romantic partners, it s only seem a little bit more disposable, you know?
2
SPEAKER_00
Not to be too, than children.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right, right, right.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s different, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, because you have a real responsibility to raise your child.
2
SPEAKER_00
With a romantic partner, you re kind of like, well, I mean, there are a lot of people out there.
2
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
2
SPEAKER_00
No matter how incredible your partner is, it was kind of like, I don t feel as beholden to them as I do a child.
2
SPEAKER_02
Of course.
2
SPEAKER_02
Did you have any fear around having your first child?
2
SPEAKER_00
No, no.
2
SPEAKER_00
I ve definitely always wanted a family.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, even, that s the thing is that even through all the extreme free soul, I mean, whatever, I ve always, you know, wanted to be an old person with grandkids at some point.
2
SPEAKER_00
Really?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s, I mean, there s seasons to life.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, you know, you can t, you can t just like do the hardest, craziest thing forever.
2
SPEAKER_00
And why would you want to?
2
SPEAKER_00
You get so tired.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s funny.
2
SPEAKER_00
I ve had this conversation, but I mean, this is a whole other side.
2
SPEAKER_00
But so, I mean, I m at the point in life, I m 38.
2
SPEAKER_00
A lot of my friends are a little bit older, but similar range of life.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so a lot of my friends are starting families right now.
2
SPEAKER_00
And there are a handful of professional climbers, you know, around my age who have partners who like really want to start a family, but they re kind of like not sure they still have some things they want to do.
2
SPEAKER_00
And, you know, there s like this, this tension between like, do we start having kids?
2
SPEAKER_00
And a conversation I ve had with several of my friends who are professional climbers is that, you know, I ve been, I ve been a professional climber for 15 years and it s been amazing and I love it.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I ve been going so hard for 15 years or actually a little more than that, like 17 years or something.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I m 38, so realistically I could keep going at roughly the same pace into my 50s probably, because climbing has more longevity than most sports because it s relatively low impact on your body and you don t really get injured.
2
SPEAKER_00
So you can go pretty hard for a long time.
2
SPEAKER_00
But so if I doubled what I ve done, that d get me 55.
2
SPEAKER_00
But then I d still have 40 more years of life potentially before I die.
2
SPEAKER_00
And you re kind of like, there s no way I could do it two more times after that.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like, you d be so tired.
2
SPEAKER_00
And just the idea of taking everything that I ve done in the last 15, 17 years and then doing it all again, I m like, I don t even know if I want to.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s so much.
2
SPEAKER_00
Really?
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, you know.
2
SPEAKER_02
And probably the more times you do these things, yes, you get more skilled at it and better at it, but it s also more chances of an injury, more chances of something bad happening too, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah and I mean I would think also just a little bit less passion for it because like if you ve just done it all yeah I mean I mean I haven t done it all and there are always like other things to do and other challenges but I have done most of the things that I ve dreamt of my whole life so you know like I can dream up new things but do they mean as much as the things that I dreamt about since I was a kid you know it s like we just keep adding more things onto your list because you re like I don t want the list to end
2
SPEAKER_00
Is that cool?
2
SPEAKER_01
Going for a bigger mountain and a new place.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s going to be freezing.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m going to be naked climbing.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m like, do I need that?
2
SPEAKER_00
I m like, I don t know if I need that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, there are, there are plenty of climbing challenges.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m still understanding things that I m working on and whatever, but you know, I have done a lot of things that I want to do.
2
SPEAKER_02
What about, you know, this profession is a dangerous profession.
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, you ve had a lot of people that have lost their lives over the years, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
A lot of people that you re close with or people that you climbed with or knew of,
2
SPEAKER_02
How dangerous is this sport really?
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, yeah, I mean I ve definitely known, I ve known a lot of people who ve died climbing, but part of that is also because it s professional climbing, you know everybody, so any kind of accident you at least tangentially know the people involved probably.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, climbing is interesting because it s very high consequence.
3
SPEAKER_01
So if you have an accident, it can often be fatal.
3
SPEAKER_01
but you very rarely have accidents.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so, I contrast climbing against a sport like mountain biking, let s say, where people break their clavicle like every other season.
3
SPEAKER_01
So, I mean, I kind of prefer a sport like climbing where you basically never get injured, but you re always facing a tiny, tiny risk that you could die if you did something wrong or if, you know, a lapse of attention or whatever.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like, there s always the chance you could die and there s always the chance of like minor injuries and things, but realistically,
3
SPEAKER_01
If you re just a casual climber that climbs in the gym and goes sport climbing outside on weekends and stuff, you ll probably go your whole life without ever being injured or witnessing a serious accident.
3
SPEAKER_01
Whereas if you re a serious mountain biker, you re going to get hurt every year.
3
SPEAKER_01
Really?
3
SPEAKER_01
Something s going to happen?
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, gravity-assisted sports, like if you re an elite skier, you re getting injured every season or like every couple of seasons.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
You may not die.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, but that s the thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s what I was going to say is that like as a mountain biker, skier, things like that, it s very rare that you die.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, you know, you can, but it s not common, but you re always going to get injured.
3
SPEAKER_01
I kind of prefer the other risk profile where it s like, you re never going to have little injuries, but there s always the risk you die.
3
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think it s a little more heightened.
3
SPEAKER_00
Tell me.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s very heightened.
3
SPEAKER_00
Is there something about that that excites you that like I could go up this right now and not come back?
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, it s not that it excites me, but I think it demands a certain level of attention and focus.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I just don t like, I don t want to break my clavicle every year.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like, I don t want to, I don t want to like separate my AC joint, like break my shoulders.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, it s like, I mean, I have friends that have all been hurt biking, doing different things.
3
SPEAKER_01
And you re kind of like, I don t want that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like, I love climbing and I don t want to take time off because I, you know, broke my arm doing something stupid, like skiing and biking or whatever.
3
SPEAKER_00
What is the thing you think about when you have a long climb and stakes are high?
3
SPEAKER_00
What is the thing that you re thinking about?
3
SPEAKER_00
Are you thinking about the end?
3
SPEAKER_00
Are you thinking about moment by moment?
3
SPEAKER_00
Are you thinking about the next few moments?
3
SPEAKER_00
Are you distracted, thinking, putting your mind in a different place?
3
SPEAKER_00
Where does your mind go?
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it depends.
3
SPEAKER_01
So, say on El Cap specifically, like free sailing El Cap, the route on El Cap can be broken down roughly as a third easy, a third medium climbing, and a third hard, just sort of interspersed throughout the 3,000 feet.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like some of it is easy, some of it s, but then some of it s very hard.
3
SPEAKER_01
So on the easy terrain, my mind can just kind of wander and you can think about whatever you want.
3
SPEAKER_01
On the medium terrain, you know, you kind of have to focus a little more and then on the very hard terrain, you re basically just focused on the movement and you re not even necessarily thinking about the movement, you re just doing the movement and your mind is just sort of empty.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I think...
3
SPEAKER_01
The easiest way to understand that is if you compare it to running or something.
3
SPEAKER_01
Let s say I think most people have had experience running pretty hard.
3
SPEAKER_01
And if you re casually jogging, then you can like look around and enjoy things.
3
SPEAKER_01
But if you re sprinting as hard as you can sprint, then you re really not thinking about anything.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re just trying to keep breathing and keep your feet under you and that s it.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re just doing the thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
You re second by second.
3
SPEAKER_00
You just focus on that second.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re just hoping your lungs don t explode while you re like going as hard as you can.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I mean, so I think that that s a pretty similar, I think it s a good analogy.
3
SPEAKER_01
Where like basically depending on the level of intensity, you have more or less, you know, you focus more or less.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I think, you know, people are like, oh, you know, if you re distracted on the easy part, it s like, is that dangerous?
3
SPEAKER_01
You re like, yeah, you don t want to be completely complacent and you don t want to just like slip and fall off because you re not paying any attention.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right.
3
SPEAKER_01
But it s the same way, like when you re driving in like casual conditions, your mind can be thinking about anything else and you can just trust your body to do the thing that you ve been doing your whole life.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Sometimes you drive somewhere and you re like, how did I get here?
3
SPEAKER_00
You get to the end spot.
3
SPEAKER_00
You re like, I don t remember getting here.
3
SPEAKER_00
Totally.
3
SPEAKER_00
But your body and your mind knows where to go.
3
SPEAKER_00
You re paying attention.
3
SPEAKER_01
And you re doing something that you ve practiced for possibly many hours a day for your entire life, which is funny.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, nobody thinks of driving that way, but it is something that you basically practice, maybe not in an intentional level and not in a structured way, but you do have a lot of experience with it over your life, especially living in LA.
3
SPEAKER_01
Hours a day that you re practicing this thing that you want to do.
3
SPEAKER_01
So, I don t know, I mean, I think it makes sense that if something you ve practiced that much, you can just execute on autopilot.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
But before you go up on something challenging, are you visualizing it?
3
SPEAKER_00
Are you... You know, on El Cap, obviously, you talked about the whole process of, like, going up there, doing the moves, like, you had a journal, you re, like, going over everything, but just on maybe a normal challenging adventure, how do you approach that?
3
SPEAKER_01
It depends.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, so in climbing, basically, it depends whether I ve prepared for it or not because there s some climbs that you intentionally don t practice and train for, but climbs all have ratings, like difficulties assigned to them.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so, there are certain things that are so far within your comfort zone that you just kind of know that you can go up there and deal with whatever you find.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so, in that case, you don t necessarily visualize or practice or do anything ahead of time because you just know that it s within your comfort zone.
3
SPEAKER_01
But if something is a hard enough radian that it s like, you know, on the edge of your comfort zone or beyond it, then you kind of have to employ all the techniques I was using on El Cap, like, you know, actual repelling it and preparing and practicing and memorizing moves and then visualizing the moves and rehearsing and just all the things.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so, yeah, it just depends on what level of challenge you re looking for.
3
SPEAKER_00
From the moment you said, I m going to climb El Cap to the actual day you did it, how much time was that?
3
SPEAKER_00
When you made the decision, this is going to happen, how much time was that?
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, a decision like I m going to do it or the dream I want to do it?
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, both.
3
SPEAKER_00
It was a dream, but then like, okay, I feel ready.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now I m going to actually train for it.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, okay, so in 2008, I soloed the Northwest Face at Half Dome, which is like a 2,000-foot wall.
3
SPEAKER_01
And as soon as I did that, I was kind of like, oh, L-Cap is the next obvious thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
So starting in 2009, I was like, L-Cap this year.
3
SPEAKER_01
But then I drove into the valley, looked at L-Cap, and was like, there is no way.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s like totally out of the question.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s way too much, too scary, it s just too crazy.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so then from 2009, for the next, I guess, six years or so, I kept thinking each year that, like, this is the year.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, like, maybe this is.
3
SPEAKER_01
Really?
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, I kept kind of just hoping that I would drive into Yosemite and look at the wall and it would look easy.
3
SPEAKER_01
You never did.
3
SPEAKER_01
No.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s funny because even now having done it, I look at it, it still doesn t look easy.
3
SPEAKER_00
You re like, how did I do that?
3
SPEAKER_01
That was crazy.
3
SPEAKER_01
Totally.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it s just, it looks insane no matter what.
3
SPEAKER_01
But so I spent years kind of hoping that I would just somehow get a little better and it would just look easy.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so then by 2015, so that s now six years later of having this dream.
3
SPEAKER_00
And you were climbing it also, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I was climbing with ropes and with partners and doing speed records and doing all kinds of things.
3
SPEAKER_00
With ropes, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
So you were doing that.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I was doing plenty of other walls without ropes and things.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was a professional climber, so I was trying really hard.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was doing all kinds of things.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I was just hoping that by doing all these things, eventually El Cap would look easy.
3
SPEAKER_00
You d be like, yeah, I got this.
3
SPEAKER_00
No big deal.
3
SPEAKER_01
yeah yeah it s not like i just drove in and was like i hope it changed you know it s like i was like grinding like all year gone expeditions like climbing hard roots free-souling big walls like doing film like doing all this stuff years yeah for years hoping that at some point el cap would be like would look chill and it just never did so then by 2015
3
SPEAKER_01
I finally sort of accepted that it was never going to be easy and that I should probably just start doing the prep work specifically.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like basically start acting as if I was going to do it even if I didn t really know if I could do it and just see what would happen.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then by sheer coincidence, the film directing duo, like Jimmy Chin and Chai Vasarely, the people who co-directed the film Free Solo, approached me that year by doing a feature documentary.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so as a professional climber, you re like, oh, cool.
3
SPEAKER_01
Somebody wants to make a movie about me climbing something.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like, it makes sense that I ve had this dream that I want to work on forever, and now some people show up wanting to basically help me work on a dream project.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m like, this is perfect.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so then we made the film Free Solo.
3
SPEAKER_00
If they didn t approach you to do this film, do you think you would have done?
3
SPEAKER_01
I think I still would have, but I think it actually would have been, well, it would have been harder in some ways, but then also easier in other ways.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because obviously the stress, the pressure of a film project doesn t really help with something like that in some ways.
3
SPEAKER_01
But actually it does help a lot with some of the nitty gritty, like the logistics, like carrying rope to the summit of the wall, rappelling in, working on sections, pulling the rope back out afterwards, stashing stuff, like moving equipment.
3
SPEAKER_01
It does help to have friends and partners involved who are like working on the same project with you.
3
SPEAKER_00
So you re not just alone out there.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, well, no, I just mean the actual like weight of like so Carrying 1200 feet of rope to the summit of the wall each coil each spool of rope is you know 50 to 75 pounds Like basically it s it represents days of effort Just to get out there.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, just not even climbing.
3
SPEAKER_01
I ll get your stuff.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, exactly It s just a lot of work and so having a team you can spread out the work a little bit better Wow
3
SPEAKER_01
It was helpful for me to have people that I could talk to about it and because free soloing you normally Keep it pretty low-key because nobody wants to hear about your soloing projects really no No, cuz everyone s like that s a bad idea.
3
SPEAKER_01
You shouldn t do that.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like nobody no one s encouraging.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, no one s encouraging you like climb Thousands of feet in the air without a rope.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, exactly.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like if you have a dream
4
SPEAKER_02
like that that s kind of a fragile dream like you don t totally believe you can do it and then all of your friends are constantly telling you you shouldn t do it you re never gonna you re never gonna try you know so you want to keep it like pretty close to the chest so you don t tell people your dreams no not for free selling stuff you re just maybe like one person like this is something I m thinking about and they you know they got it not even really without cap I mean not really maybe some like hypothetical conversations of friends over the years but never like a
4
SPEAKER_00
Really?
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it s just like because it was too it s too much.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s too crazy.
4
SPEAKER_00
So you couldn t tell anyone your I guess your girlfriend at the time?
4
SPEAKER_02
She knew.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah well that was the thing with the film project is that once we re doing the film project then obviously all the people involved with the film know what s going on and then and then you bring in a few people because you re filming with them like climbing partners and basically because we were doing the film project it sort of opened the the net wide enough that I was able to talk to a handful of people about it get some advice and like
4
SPEAKER_02
Which turned out helping a bit.
4
SPEAKER_00
But otherwise no one would have known.
4
SPEAKER_00
You would have just rehearsed and practiced for months.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, almost all of my other major free solos were done basically alone.
4
SPEAKER_02
With no one knowing?
4
SPEAKER_02
Well some, I mean with varying degrees because for certain roots you need a partner to work on them with you.
4
SPEAKER_02
And that s the thing like with El Cap, it s so big, like I knew that I would need partners to help like going up and down and repelling the wall.
4
SPEAKER_02
Like repelling the whole wall by yourself, like you can do it.
4
SPEAKER_02
but it s a grind and doing it over and over is a bit of a recipe for disaster.
4
SPEAKER_02
Like it helps to have somebody with you just to manage the ropes and have the gear and all the stuff.
4
SPEAKER_02
And so it just helps to have a film crew with it because you know like you might have some really good friends who are willing to go up there with you a couple days
4
SPEAKER_02
but they re not going to go up there with you for months because nobody s that good a friend.
4
SPEAKER_02
Right.
4
SPEAKER_02
They re kind of like, okay, like that was, unless you re paying me, I ll go up once or twice.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I got a life.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, exactly.
4
SPEAKER_02
They have.
4
SPEAKER_02
And it s like hard work hiding at the top of the wall and rappelling down a big wall over and over.
4
SPEAKER_02
Like it s not, this is like an easy day, you know, sunrise, a sundown type of thing, like all day.
4
SPEAKER_02
Well, it s actually more like way pre sunrise, like very, very early and then trying to be down by, uh, before sunset, before the sun hits certain parts of the wall.
4
SPEAKER_02
But so it s more like a four to two kind of, you know, 4am to like 2pm operation on the wall every day.
4
SPEAKER_02
That s like every day for months.
4
SPEAKER_02
No, no.
4
SPEAKER_02
I mean like couple of days a week.
4
SPEAKER_02
I mean they re really big days.
4
SPEAKER_02
You have to rest.
4
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so you had the dream kind of hypothetical since 2008 or 2009, but then you realized, oh, this is actually the most terrifying thing I ve ever seen in my life, probably.
4
SPEAKER_00
At one of my thinking, that s a crazy dream, but ever you come back, you train, you try other stuff, you come back, hoping to look at the wall and thinking, I got this.
4
SPEAKER_00
For years, you didn t have it.
4
SPEAKER_00
Until the point where you said,
4
SPEAKER_02
maybe I ve got this and then the film crew said... Not even necessarily maybe I ve got this, more like you know what I ll never know if I ve got this or not unless I try.
4
SPEAKER_02
Because I kept kind of hoping that it would look easy before I put in the work and finally I realized I had to flip it and put in the work before it would look easy.
4
SPEAKER_00
Just to act as if you were going to attempt it.
4
SPEAKER_02
Exactly, exactly.
4
SPEAKER_02
Basically, I just realized that I d have to put in all the work and then maybe it would happen, maybe it wouldn t, but I would just have to put in the work regardless to find out because otherwise I was never going to know.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so what did that work look like for you?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like how much time, how many reps?
4
SPEAKER_02
So yeah, so then the work wound up being, as it turns out, almost two years of effort on the wall.
4
SPEAKER_02
But part of that s because of one of the seasons I injured my hand in like a climbing fall.
4
SPEAKER_02
Just like random things happen, you know, life happens.
4
SPEAKER_02
And I climbed a bunch of other routes while I was working on it and, you know,
4
SPEAKER_02
life goes on, but basically it was like another two years of working on this LCAP project.
4
SPEAKER_00
With one goal, essentially.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
And mapping it out.
4
SPEAKER_00
How does that look like then?
4
SPEAKER_00
Do you kind of have your journal and map out, here s the game plan for month one, month two?
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, a little bit.
4
SPEAKER_02
And then actually, more specifically, I had my game plan for the route itself.
4
SPEAKER_02
Like, here are the parts that have question marks.
4
SPEAKER_02
Like, I m not sure about this one move on this one section.
4
SPEAKER_02
And, like, what about this section?
4
SPEAKER_02
And then there s, like, these loose rocks up here.
4
SPEAKER_02
And there s, like, this bush in the crack up there.
4
SPEAKER_02
And, you know, there s just random stuff.
4
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
4
SPEAKER_02
And so then, you know, piece by piece, I worked my way through the
4
SPEAKER_02
the checklist, so to speak, and, you know, try to like make myself feel comfortable in the different parts.
4
SPEAKER_02
And I found workarounds through around a few sections that I never really felt that comfortable.
4
SPEAKER_02
And yeah, and then eventually just sort of.
4
SPEAKER_01
How many times did you do the whole thing assisted with ropes before you went after it?
4
SPEAKER_02
Not that many, but that s because climbing the whole route from bottom to top with a rope actually wasn t the most efficient way to work on it.
4
SPEAKER_02
Because like I was saying, maybe a third of the route is pretty easy.
4
SPEAKER_02
You don t need to do that.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and the third that s kind of medium, I don t really need to do that either.
4
SPEAKER_02
So I kind of wanted to focus all my effort on the hardest sections just because it s a better use of time.
4
SPEAKER_00
So it s just doing section after section, just kind of repeating it.
4
SPEAKER_02
The other thing is that if you climb from bottom to top, then you need a partner with you who s able to climb a wall that quickly, and there aren t that many.
4
SPEAKER_02
Just like five people maybe?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
Like literally there are a couple people in the world.
4
SPEAKER_02
And they re willing to do that with you maybe one or two times, but then they re pretty tired and they re kind of over it.
4
SPEAKER_02
They re sort of like, why are we doing this over and over?
4
SPEAKER_02
Now for me it made more sense to rappel down the wall by myself or with a partner and work on the key sections because then I can be a little more strategic about the hard parts.
4
SPEAKER_00
So you started at the top and went down?
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah I generally start at the top.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh interesting.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah so like a typical day might be starting like hiking to the summit very very early in the morning.
4
SPEAKER_02
How long does that take to hike it?
4
SPEAKER_02
Like an hour to like two hours.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like an easy route?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you basically hike around the back.
4
SPEAKER_02
Oh, okay.
4
SPEAKER_02
So, I d like bike across the valley, get to this spot in the forest.
4
SPEAKER_02
You hike around the back, takes a couple hours.
4
SPEAKER_02
Wow.
4
SPEAKER_02
But that s like when you have all your stuff already set up on the wall, like with light loads moving really fast.
4
SPEAKER_02
And then you rappelled on the wall.
4
SPEAKER_02
I typically rappelled down to the hardest section, which is 2,300 feet off the ground.
4
SPEAKER_02
And then I would do that a bunch of times.
4
SPEAKER_02
And then I would keep going from there down and then work on a couple other sections on the way down and then try to be down by lunchtime or something.
4
SPEAKER_00
When you re rappelling down 3,000 feet and you see the ground 3,000 feet below you, do you ever get scared?
4
SPEAKER_00
No.
4
Really?
4
SPEAKER_02
How is that possible?
4
SPEAKER_02
I mean, well, but like, if you get scared just from seeing it, then how are you going to climb without a rope?
4
SPEAKER_02
You know what I mean?
4
SPEAKER_00
That s crazy, but you re so high up, man.
4
SPEAKER_02
I know, but that s fine.
4
SPEAKER_02
But you re secure.
4
SPEAKER_02
You re on a rope or in a harness.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s all safe.
4
SPEAKER_00
You can just look down and hang there dangling, and you feel fine.
4
SPEAKER_02
If you know that you re safe.
4
SPEAKER_02
I mean, if I thought the anchor was going to rip, then I d find it really scary.
4
SPEAKER_02
You know, like if I thought that the rope is about to snap, then I find it pretty scary.
4
SPEAKER_02
Right.
4
SPEAKER_00
But if you re just hanging, dangling and you feel like everything s secure, I m good.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s fine.
4
SPEAKER_00
You can just look back, dangle 3,000 feet in the air and not worry.
4
SPEAKER_02
Well, like, so when you ride in an airplane and you look out the window, is that scary?
4
SPEAKER_02
You re like, no, you feel totally confident in your safety.
4
SPEAKER_02
And it s pretty chill.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yes, but I m seated inside of something.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, but it s the same thing.
4
SPEAKER_02
I m in a harness.
4
SPEAKER_02
You re just sitting in your harness.
4
SPEAKER_00
You re just chilling.
4
SPEAKER_00
Oh, man.
4
SPEAKER_02
But if it, you know, it s something that you ve spent five days a week doing for 20 plus years.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
Like, it feels pretty chill.
4
SPEAKER_02
Have you ever done those observation decks and skyscrapers where it s like a glass floor?
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it s kind of scary.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it s like a little scary.
4
SPEAKER_00
But you know you re secure.
4
SPEAKER_02
But you know it s safe.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, you saw all those other people doing it.
4
SPEAKER_02
You re like, it s safe.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s fine.
4
SPEAKER_02
And then it s chill on it.
4
SPEAKER_02
You just enjoy the view.
4
SPEAKER_02
You appreciate the place.
4
SPEAKER_02
You re like, it s cool.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, after a minute, you re like, okay, I m fine if it s just a little square.
4
SPEAKER_02
And I know I can... That s the other thing with all this, you know, all my talk of hiking to the top, rappelling the wall.
4
SPEAKER_02
You re spending eight hours a day on the wall.
4
SPEAKER_02
So, yeah, often the first step over the edge can be kind of scary.
4
SPEAKER_02
And especially in the morning, there ll be like an updraft and it s cold wind and you re like literally looking over the edge of a 3,000-foot cliff and your ropes are all tangled and it s like chilly and you re just sort of like, oh, I m a little on edge.
4
SPEAKER_02
But then once you start, like you just can t be on edge all day.
4
SPEAKER_02
You know, eight hours in, you re like, I m so tired.
4
SPEAKER_02
You re relaxed.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
You re like, it s fine.
4
SPEAKER_00
Now after you completed El Cap, your wife mentions in Arctic Ascent, which is the new show coming out, which the trailer is unbelievable, we ll have it linked up here, she mentioned that you seemed lost, and as an athlete,
4
SPEAKER_00
myself pursuing goals and and you know many different sports in high school and college being a Two-sport all-american professional athlete USA handball team.
4
SPEAKER_00
I remember accomplishing big athletic goals and almost feeling depressed within 30 to 60 minutes after the celebration 30 minutes I remember like maybe a couple hours but like the dinner after the event was done like later that night I d be like
4
SPEAKER_00
hoping to feel something else.
4
SPEAKER_00
I never really felt what I thought I would after 10 years of pursuing a goal.
4
SPEAKER_00
I was always like, oh, I still don t love myself the way I think I should.
4
SPEAKER_00
I don t feel happy the way I m supposed to feel.
4
SPEAKER_00
I don t feel, it didn t solve every problem in my life.
4
SPEAKER_02
I think maybe I d sort of already learned that lesson a bunch of times before climbing El Cap, because yeah, you just learn that it s not solving any of your problems.
4
SPEAKER_02
But that said, I still love climbing things.
4
SPEAKER_02
So like climbing El Cap, I was still very satisfied, and I m still very satisfied with having climbed.
4
SPEAKER_02
I was never, but I think what my wife referred to, I mean, I would always, like, I don t know if I was really lost.
4
SPEAKER_02
But I think that, I mean, we started dating right as I started the process of Free Solo, just by sheer coincidence of when we met and whatever, but it was like basically right at the beginning of my journey to actually Free Solo Cap, the final two years of like training and doing it.
4
SPEAKER_02
So she had only dated me through the most focused and intense period of
5
SPEAKER_00
my entire life, basically.
5
SPEAKER_01
The biggest goal you ve had?
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, the biggest goal in my whole life.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like, this is the pinnacle achievement of all of my climbing.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like, this is everything.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then I do it.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then, yeah, I mean, I m sure from her perspective, I m like, a little bit more relaxed, a little more like, you know.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it is true that when you let a big goal like that go, either by having done it or by walking away from it because it s not possible for you for whatever reason, I mean, it does, there is a little bit of a hole left behind where you re like, oh, like what gets me out of bed now?
5
SPEAKER_00
Like why, why get up early?
5
SPEAKER_00
Why train all the time?
5
SPEAKER_00
What s my purpose, my mission?
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Or like, why do I care about my diet if I m not, if not for some important thing, like should I just eat dessert all day, every day, you know?
5
SPEAKER_01
So when did you, I mean, how long was that phase for you until you got clear on the next purpose?
5
SPEAKER_00
It d be hard to say because that season, so part of my process actually for free soloing El Cap was because free soloing is so psychological, so much of it s mental, I mean physically I knew I was capable but it s like the mental side is challenging and so even though I knew it would be the most important thing I d ever do in climbing, I didn t want to put it on too high of a pedestal because I didn t want to build it up even higher in my mind than it already was and so
5
SPEAKER_00
in a way to sort of offset that, in a way to keep it feeling more normal for myself, I tried to just keep my Yosemite season as like one of many things throughout the year.
5
SPEAKER_00
So, the season that I free-sailed at El Cap, I also had an expedition planned to Antarctica that winter.
5
SPEAKER_00
It was like my first trip to Antarctica.
5
SPEAKER_00
It was a North Face expedition with the whole team and I was just going with people.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I didn t even necessarily want to go because I thought it would be too cold.
5
SPEAKER_00
As it turns out... It is too cold.
5
SPEAKER_00
No, actually it turns out it was one of the best expeditions of my life and it was amazing.
5
SPEAKER_00
Really?
5
SPEAKER_00
But at the time I was like, that sounds crazy, I don t want to go.
5
SPEAKER_00
But that s a different story.
5
SPEAKER_00
But so because I knew I d be going to Antarctica,
5
SPEAKER_00
I also planned this expedition to Alaska with some other people.
5
SPEAKER_00
Again, it was like someone else s trip, but I was going to go with them because it s a good way to practice the skills for Antarctica.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I d been there with them before, and we had some unfinished business.
5
SPEAKER_00
We were going to do the same.
5
SPEAKER_00
I had my Yosemite season where I was hoping to freestyle all cap, but I already had these other trips lined up and these other climbing goals and these partners and like plans because I wanted Yosemite to feel like, oh, I m using Yosemite to get fit for Alaska and Alaska is getting me fit for Antarctica and it s all just part of the normal cycle of being a professional climber where you go from like one thing to another.
5
SPEAKER_00
And yes, of course, my goal in Yosemite is way more important than any of those other things.
5
SPEAKER_00
but it makes it feel like it s more normal.
5
SPEAKER_00
Right.
5
SPEAKER_00
And that keeps it from feeling too crazy for me.
5
SPEAKER_00
Too intense, too stressful.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so when I did El Cap, uh, like a week later, I went to Alaska and went on this expedition.
5
SPEAKER_00
And as it turns out, it actually was kind of a perfect comedown because we had terrible weather.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I spent a bunch of time in my tent.
5
SPEAKER_00
I read a bunch.
5
SPEAKER_00
And after, you know, years of training for El Cap and like several months of intense physical effort.
5
SPEAKER_01
You reflected more.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Then I was actually, you know, just because of the Alaskan weather, I just got to spend a couple of weeks in my tent reading, being like,
5
SPEAKER_00
Like chill, you know, but so your question though of like was there a big comedown kind of like
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, there was a little bit, but there was kind of this natural order of other trips and plans and goals.
5
SPEAKER_00
And like, you know, I mean, as a climber, you just always have something that you re interested in.
5
SPEAKER_01
Sure.
5
SPEAKER_00
But then it was complicated because then the next year the film came out.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then the Free Solo film, I called it my deployment to Hollywood, sort of like a military deployment.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Because it was basically six months of like nonstop traveling events.
5
SPEAKER_00
Press, interviews, promotion.
5
SPEAKER_00
You know, nonstop everything.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I knew it was a once-in-a-lifetime thing, so I totally embraced it.
5
SPEAKER_00
I was like, I m going all in.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m doing everything they tell me to do.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m here for the experience.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like, oh, there s Bradley Cooper again.
5
SPEAKER_00
I met him at the last Six Things, too.
5
SPEAKER_00
You re like, cool, because he was touring with A Star is Born.
5
SPEAKER_00
And you re just like, oh, Bradley, you re so handsome.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s like every time you bump into him, you re like, you re still so handsome.
5
SPEAKER_00
But I knew that it was a once-in-a-lifetime thing.
5
SPEAKER_00
So the events are fun.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, yeah, like, but, but it s cool, you know, it s like crazy stories and, you know, it s the only time you ll do it.
5
SPEAKER_00
So you re just like, that s, that s fine.
5
SPEAKER_00
But then again, then you have a crazy come down afterward because you ve just spent six months basically living this like insane Hollywood lifestyle.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, it s like high, but also kind of low because you re basically just going from airport to venue, to hotel, to airport, to venue, to hotel, like for months, which for me especially is a,
5
SPEAKER_00
professional climber is like a complete change from normal lifestyle.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you want to be outdoors.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, normally I like hike to the cliff.
5
SPEAKER_00
I spend the whole day working on some random thing with my partner and then we hike back and it s all super chill.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then, you know, during the freestyle film tour we re having days where you wake up in New York City, you fly to SF, you drive for an hour, you do an event, you drive back to the airport, you fly again to LA and then you do another event that night and you re just like, I m literally a piece of meat that s being shipped in a can around the country.
5
SPEAKER_00
You re like, this is crazy.
5
SPEAKER_00
But, but you re also like, what a
5
SPEAKER_00
Unusual life experience, you know, I think I had two different days like that There were double days where it s like you wake up in Chicago you fly to New York You do an event and then you fly to LA and you do another event that night and you re like, how can you even do them?
5
SPEAKER_00
And even you know, like you did two premieres on one day Yeah, not necessarily but like screenings or sure things or whatever.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, but like stuff so that was six months and
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it was like six months.
5
SPEAKER_01
Of touring around, speaking, showing up, taking photos, doing interviews.
5
SPEAKER_00
Maybe it was like five, but it was really, really long.
5
SPEAKER_00
And you weren t able to really climb during that.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I was training in the gym a lot.
5
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
5
SPEAKER_00
Quite a bit.
5
SPEAKER_00
Lifting or you were more like climbing?
5
SPEAKER_00
No, climbing gym.
5
SPEAKER_01
So any gym you could find in the country, you would just go?
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Every climbing gym in the country, basically.
5
SPEAKER_01
You went to, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
Wow, man.
5
SPEAKER_01
So would you ever do that experience again, where you re hanging out with
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, for the right thing, it is fun.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s a crazy experience.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s cool.
5
SPEAKER_00
What was the crazy story that came out of that in those five months?
5
SPEAKER_00
In some ways, my wife and I now have a lot of fun little couple stories, like at one of the Oscars after party things, Mahershala Ali, whatever, you know the guy, I think Green Book, I forget if he d won something or not, but he was obviously nominated, and he s a great actor, and very handsome, and all dapper in this amazing suit with this entourage.
5
SPEAKER_00
Anyway, he was walking by, and he just shook my hand or something, because we had just
5
SPEAKER_00
Anyway, my wife was holding a bunch of hors d oeuvres, because we re pillaging all the free snacks, and she literally just threw her snacks on the floor so she could be like, hello, and shake hands with him.
5
SPEAKER_00
And she was so delighted to meet him.
5
SPEAKER_00
But it s just the fun story of she just dumps all her food so she can be like, hello.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s her one chance to shake hands with Ursula.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s fun.
5
SPEAKER_00
I don t know, just things like that, random stories.
5
SPEAKER_01
You saw Bradley Cooper, what, six times?
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, a bunch.
5
SPEAKER_00
Because everyone s on the same circuit.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s like, the directors go to war, the screen actors go to war, the whatevers, the Oscars, the BAFTAs,
5
SPEAKER_00
I presented an award at the Audio Guild Academy thing.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s all part of the campaign.
5
SPEAKER_00
You just do what everybody tells you.
5
SPEAKER_01
You just felt like a piece of meat though, huh?
5
SPEAKER_01
Just being shipped around everywhere?
5
SPEAKER_00
Basically.
5
SPEAKER_00
But I mean, it s fine.
5
SPEAKER_00
You re just doing what you re told.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, it s like having a job.
5
SPEAKER_00
Sure.
5
SPEAKER_00
But you re like, what a weird job.
5
SPEAKER_01
Did you get paid for that?
5
SPEAKER_00
No.
5
SPEAKER_00
They pay for your flights and hotels?
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, of course.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s all expenses covered.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then, you know, I make some percentage of what Free Solo made.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then Free Solo was shockingly successful.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so then, you know.
5
SPEAKER_00
So you get a cut of that.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
So it s disingenuous to say I m not going to pay, because obviously it s all good for me.
5
SPEAKER_01
You re helping promote something that could pay you.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
5
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then when you think how well the film wound up doing, and then, you know, I wound up getting Corpus speaking offers and things like that.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like, obviously, the film doing well has been very good for me and my family, and that s all great.
5
SPEAKER_00
But the actual day-to-day, you re not getting paid.
5
SPEAKER_00
And you re just like, this is a lot.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like, it s crazy.
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, I mean, you re not getting paid to climb a mountain either day-to-day, I guess.
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, that s true.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s true.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, my friends and I often joke that if you broke out your pay as a climber by hours of hard labor, you know, you re getting paid, like, two bucks an hour to carry, like, a 50-pound backpack up a mountain.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then you re kind of like, this is pretty hard work for that much money.
5
SPEAKER_00
But it s because you love doing it and it s so fun and it s beautiful.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m curious, you mentioned this in Free Solo, but how many people that you ve either climbed with or know as climbers have lost their life?
5
SPEAKER_00
No, I don t know.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, it depends on how wide of a net you cast to between close friends versus casual acquaintances and things.
5
SPEAKER_00
But, you know, in the broader community, like dozens probably.
5
SPEAKER_00
But close friends, you know, a handful.
5
SPEAKER_01
Really?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
Was there ever a time where there was, like, did anyone ever lose their life on a climb that you were on ever, or an expedition?
5
SPEAKER_00
No, I don t think so.
5
SPEAKER_00
Nothing, like, too, too close.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I ve seen a couple terrible accidents, like cliffs.
5
SPEAKER_00
Really?
5
SPEAKER_00
Where somebody, yeah, like, you hear screaming, you run around the corner, and then, like, this guy.
5
SPEAKER_00
It broke their leg or something, or?
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, a couple things like that.
5
SPEAKER_00
Not many people dying, though.
5
SPEAKER_01
Really?
5
SPEAKER_01
Like, you were there?
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
You were out, I mean, it wasn t in your group, or was it just another group, or?
5
SPEAKER_00
Different group like some random kids at this climbing.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
Oh, man.
5
SPEAKER_00
What s that?
5
SPEAKER_00
I could get fell and Some of the protection ripped out and he landed on the ground and his head collapsed basically and he died What s that?
5
SPEAKER_01
Like when you re on a climbing you see and you experience that I mean I
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, yeah, it s terrible, but you re always sort of rationally aware of the risks involved.
5
SPEAKER_00
And this might be one of the things that separates me from some of my friends or family, let s say, because I don t know if my wife feels the same way necessarily, but I feel like I m rationally aware of all the risks involved.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so seeing them firsthand is sobering for sure and very sad.
6
SPEAKER_01
And like seeing his friends was very, you know, like they were, they were all very inexperienced.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so like nobody had any idea how the accident happened or what had happened or why he s dying.
6
SPEAKER_01
And like, it was all terrible.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s terrible for the partners.
6
SPEAKER_01
And, um, you know, so that s like hard to watch, but you are sort of like, this is what you ve signed up to do.
6
SPEAKER_01
You re like, you know, that this is a possibility.
6
SPEAKER_01
Seeing it doesn t make it any less of a possibility.
6
SPEAKER_01
You know, like it basically is always on you to mitigate risk as much as possible.
6
SPEAKER_00
Right.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s just, I mean, yeah, it was pretty intense.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Does something change in your brain or in your heart when you re, I guess, seeing either a bad accident or seeing someone, you know, lose their life?
6
SPEAKER_00
Is something shifting inside of you or are you just saying,
6
SPEAKER_00
It s more of like a blessing and a gratitude of like, okay, this is, I have to really make sure I prepare.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s another reminder of how difficult and challenging this is.
6
SPEAKER_01
I think you can go either way.
6
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I think you can either deal with those kinds of things by sort of shutting yourself off to it and like enter yourself, like numb yourself to it and be like, it doesn t matter that happens, like whatever, don t care.
6
SPEAKER_01
Or you can sort of let it in and be like, this is really, really sad.
6
SPEAKER_01
And there are high consequences in this sport.
6
SPEAKER_01
But I love doing the sport anyway, and it s still worth it to me.
6
SPEAKER_01
But I will do my best to avoid things like that happening.
6
SPEAKER_01
In some ways, I think that that second option is the slightly more responsible and sort of the more seasoned response, maybe.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I think that that s kind of where I probably am now.
6
SPEAKER_01
Whereas I think as a younger, as an early 20s man, it s easier to just either shut it out
6
SPEAKER_01
Or just be like, well, they made a mistake and that won t happen to me.
6
SPEAKER_01
Which is like a little, it s not really the right call.
6
SPEAKER_00
What s the biggest loss you ve had?
6
SPEAKER_00
Whether it be like an emotional loss or a physical loss.
6
SPEAKER_01
You mean like loss like blow in life or loss like somebody dying?
6
SPEAKER_00
It could just be like a grieving of anything.
6
SPEAKER_00
You know, it could be a physical grieving of someone or it could be an emotional grieving of something.
6
SPEAKER_01
I don t know, I mean, there are obvious things that come to mind, like my father died when I was 19, and, you know, like, grandparents have all died, and, like, family members have died.
6
SPEAKER_01
But those are kind of, like, normal grieving in a way, where, like, in some ways that s the natural course of life.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like, my father obviously died much younger than he should have.
6
SPEAKER_01
But but it s still sort of natural in a way.
6
SPEAKER_01
You re like, you know, at some point your parents are going to die before you, hopefully.
6
SPEAKER_01
And you kind of want them to, because it s better for them to die before you than for you to die before them.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so, you know, now and now as a parent, I m like, well, I hope I die before my daughter or daughters soon.
6
SPEAKER_01
So, I mean, that to me is sort of like natural grieving.
6
SPEAKER_01
In some ways, I think accidents and climate accidents are almost harder, even though they re
6
SPEAKER_01
you know, in some ways more fair.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s like people are taking risks of their lives.
6
SPEAKER_01
Occasionally they die.
6
SPEAKER_01
You re like, well, that, you know, they made choices.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I mean, that s kind of the callous way to look at it, but it s still really sad and sad for their families.
6
SPEAKER_01
I don t know.
6
SPEAKER_01
I ve only had a couple of truly close friend climbing partners who have died in accidents.
6
SPEAKER_01
None of them were with me.
6
SPEAKER_01
But those are sad because you see the impact on the families.
6
SPEAKER_00
You re close to their friends, their families, you know their circles.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and you still think about them.
6
SPEAKER_01
You re like, oh, it d be nice to hang out with that person right now.
6
SPEAKER_01
But I don t know, I mean, that s kind of the thing with climbing though is that it is harder than, you know, like, I assume that you haven t had a lot of fellow handball athletes die playing handball.
6
SPEAKER_00
No, that I know, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
I mean, football s more intense and people get injured every season, but yeah, rare.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like, almost never die.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s rare.
6
SPEAKER_01
No, with climbing, I mean, there is a lot more risk.
6
SPEAKER_01
But then that also gives you more from the sport in some ways.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like I think some of the life lessons you can take from climbing, you can t necessarily get from handball.
6
SPEAKER_01
I mean, with all respect for handball, because obviously all the lessons around like training and perseverance, like those are all kind of the same.
6
SPEAKER_01
But some of the like managing fear and like the- It s different, different levels.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s just different things.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, of course.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you re not like managing mortal peril in the same way.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s different, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
And like grieving friends and like being actually afraid for your life.
6
SPEAKER_01
Though it s funny because being afraid of failure or being afraid of pressure of competition feels the same as being afraid for your life in a lot of ways.
6
SPEAKER_01
In some ways.
6
SPEAKER_01
And depending on the person and depending on how neurotic they are and how stressed they are, it can be worse.
6
SPEAKER_00
What about the biggest emotional loss you ve had or thing you ve had to grieve?
6
SPEAKER_00
I don t know.
6
SPEAKER_01
I mean, obviously relationships, you know, like failed relationships and things.
6
SPEAKER_01
And particularly when you re younger and it just all seems like it matters more.
6
SPEAKER_01
But, um, but in the grand scheme of the thing, none of those are that big deal.
6
SPEAKER_00
Do you feel like you have a bigger heart because of the things you ve been able to overcome?
6
SPEAKER_00
Do you have like an expansion of
6
SPEAKER_00
giving and receiving love?
6
SPEAKER_01
I think I started from a very stunted place and with steady nurturing through my wife and now having a family and good community and good relationships, now my stunted cold heart has grown to like a below average size.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, for sure.
6
SPEAKER_00
Do you think it s hard for you to feel loved?
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Why do you think that is?
6
SPEAKER_01
Partially because I think there are, you know, billions of people on earth and it s all slightly arbitrary.
6
SPEAKER_01
You know, it s like if I didn t exist, then the people around me would love other people and, and they would be fine.
6
SPEAKER_01
You know, like life would go on.
6
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
6
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it s a slightly callous approach to it, but I also think a very true approach
6
SPEAKER_00
But when your wife is trying to, you know, show appreciation or love on you, are you able to receive that?
6
SPEAKER_00
Or do you feel like it s kind of distant?
6
SPEAKER_01
We joke sometimes that she s just shoveling dirt into a bottomless hole for her whole life.
6
SPEAKER_01
Or shoveling love into a deep, dark hole.
6
SPEAKER_01
But the thing is, she s an incredibly caring person and she s, you know, she s accepted a challenge in life.
6
SPEAKER_01
Oh my gosh.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
And, I mean, it might not be quite that bad.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, of course.
6
SPEAKER_01
And especially now, like, with having kids and, you know, having more of a family.
6
SPEAKER_01
You re growing a little bit.
6
SPEAKER_01
That s the thing.
6
SPEAKER_01
I think the stunted darkness is growing a little bit.
6
SPEAKER_00
Why do you think it s hard for you to receive love?
6
SPEAKER_00
I don t know.
6
SPEAKER_00
I mean, does it matter?
6
SPEAKER_00
To receive love?
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
It feels great to receive love, doesn t it?
6
SPEAKER_01
Well, I wouldn t know.
6
SPEAKER_01
The bottomless dark hole, it s like, you know, I don t know.
6
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I guess.
6
SPEAKER_01
But do you really believe it?
6
SPEAKER_01
Even if somebody, you know,
6
SPEAKER_01
Like even if someone s very genuine and they re like, oh, but I really love you.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like, but do you really?
6
SPEAKER_01
Because you know, if, or when I disappear, obviously.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
6
SPEAKER_00
If someone disappears, it doesn t, I guess it doesn t matter.
6
SPEAKER_00
They can still love you if you re not around.
6
SPEAKER_00
You know, if, if you died, your wife can still love you for the rest of her life.
6
SPEAKER_00
Your kids can still love you for the rest of your life.
6
SPEAKER_01
I think that she wouldn t, because I think she ll basically just forget.
6
SPEAKER_01
Cause that s, that s human.
6
SPEAKER_00
I don t think people forget if they have a great relationship with them though.
6
SPEAKER_01
No, but even still, you lose the details.
6
SPEAKER_01
I mean, that s physiology, you know?
6
SPEAKER_01
It s like you just, it gets fuzzy.
6
SPEAKER_01
You have memories, you have photos, you have videos, you have memories.
6
SPEAKER_01
I know, but actually that s the interesting thing with memories.
6
SPEAKER_01
I mean, this is kind of a whole aside, but I mean, so I ve kind of noticed this being a professional climber.
6
SPEAKER_01
So a lot of my life is on video and in photo and whatever.
6
SPEAKER_01
And there are a lot of climbs that I don t even really remember that well now, you know, 15 years later or something.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so your memory starts to be supplanted by the video or by the photo or by whatever the external memory is, you know, like the thing that you re supposed to remember.
6
SPEAKER_01
And you re like, I don t actually remember the experience.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like, I don t know what I was feeling.
6
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I know what the article said or what the book says or, you know, what the video shows or whatever.
6
SPEAKER_01
But I m like, I don t remember.
6
SPEAKER_01
You don t remember the feeling.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it s been a long freaking time.
6
SPEAKER_01
So all that to say, though, I think that a lot of memories, what people think of as a memory is actually just the story that they ve told themselves about it over and over.
6
SPEAKER_00
I agree with that.
6
SPEAKER_01
Or the story that they ve told to others about it over and over.
6
SPEAKER_00
Sure.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so it s not like they actually remember it.
6
SPEAKER_01
They just keep reminding themselves of like this terrible thing that happened to them or this thing that they lost or whatever.
6
SPEAKER_01
But if they stop reminding themselves, they ll just forget.
6
SPEAKER_01
For better or for worse, you know, like in a lot of cases, that s probably better if it s something you ve lost.
6
SPEAKER_00
So when do you feel the most loved?
6
SPEAKER_00
when you re doing what?
6
SPEAKER_00
or experiencing what?
6
SPEAKER_00
When do you feel that?
6
SPEAKER_00
I don t know if you ve ever talked about love before.
6
SPEAKER_01
No, no, it was fun.
6
SPEAKER_01
Well, okay, so like last night I was at a good friend s birthday party.
6
SPEAKER_01
It was like kind of a nice little sort of family affair, like maybe four couples all hanging out, all like very close friends, all part of the climbing community.
6
SPEAKER_01
And not that I felt loved per se, but everybody was having a very nice time.
6
SPEAKER_01
And it s like, everyone s genuinely laughing and like having a great connection.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, oh, this is nice.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like, this is real community.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like, this feels good.
6
SPEAKER_01
So you felt loved?
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you feel the community, the niceness in the air.
6
SPEAKER_01
You know, where you re like, oh, this is a true group.
6
SPEAKER_00
That s a good moment.
6
SPEAKER_00
That s a good feeling.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, totally.
6
SPEAKER_00
Did you feel loved as a kid?
6
SPEAKER_00
Did you feel like you had good community and connections and friends and family that you felt loved?
6
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I objectively did have good community and good family.
6
SPEAKER_01
And, you know, it was like raised in a comfortable, safe environment.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like basically it s all should have been fine, but I don t know if I necessarily felt loved.
6
SPEAKER_00
Really?
6
SPEAKER_00
Who influenced you more, mom or dad?
7
SPEAKER_01
It s hard to say.
7
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it s hard to say because my dad died when I was 19, and so, you know, it s like hard to remember.
7
SPEAKER_01
A lot of ways I d say, like, in terms of worldview and things now, it s like, it seems clear that I m more like my mother, maybe, but it s also because I don t know my father as well because, you know, I never got to know him as an adult.
7
SPEAKER_01
But in some of the very obvious ways, my father had a bigger influence because he was the one who actually took me to the climbing gym all the time and like drove me to youth competitions.
7
SPEAKER_01
And he wasn t a climber, but he just, you know, it s kind of like being a little league dad or something.
7
SPEAKER_01
He was just supportive.
7
SPEAKER_00
So he was really supportive.
7
SPEAKER_00
He showed up to your, he took you to all the events.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
7
SPEAKER_00
He was encouraged.
7
SPEAKER_01
What are love languages and things?
7
SPEAKER_01
You know, he was really good with time.
7
SPEAKER_01
Like he was happy to like give time for things.
7
SPEAKER_01
Quality time.
7
SPEAKER_01
But not even necessarily quality because quality time would be like, oh, you re really having a moment together.
7
SPEAKER_01
But I just mean like the showing up and like doing the thing for you, like maybe acts of service.
7
SPEAKER_01
Acts of service, yeah, yeah, yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so he was like good at that kind of thing, which I think as a kid you kind of take for granted because like, well, somebody else took me to the gym.
7
SPEAKER_01
But now as an adult, I m like, man, he took me to the gym a lot.
7
SPEAKER_01
That s a lot of time.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that s a lot of time at the climbing gym.
7
SPEAKER_01
You know, and especially for, I mean, he was like a middle-aged professor who was like belaying me.
7
SPEAKER_01
He would climb a little bit, mostly just because I would need to rest every once in a while, so then he would like climb something because he s there.
7
SPEAKER_00
So he dedicated a lot of time, actually.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, he would belay me like on four or five routes, and then he would do one, and then I would do like four or five, and he would do one, and you know.
7
SPEAKER_00
That s pretty cool.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, no, it s exactly, and that s the kind of thing that now as an adult, I can see that like that s, that s a big thing on his part.
7
SPEAKER_01
He committed, yeah, he had a lot of commitment.
7
SPEAKER_01
What was the biggest lesson that your dad taught you?
7
SPEAKER_01
Well, I don t know.
7
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I think it s that.
7
SPEAKER_01
I think it s like the showing up is the most important thing in some ways.
7
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
7
SPEAKER_01
Which I mean, in this, if we re really going deep on relationship stuff, I mean, this is a common point of contention in my marriage is that to me, actions are the most important thing.
7
SPEAKER_01
You know, my wife like wants more, more words of appreciation.
7
SPEAKER_00
Words of affirmation.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
Words of affirmation.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
Whatever.
7
SPEAKER_01
So I mean.
7
SPEAKER_01
That physical touch.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
I think we both are fine with that, but like, I think she wants a little more,
7
SPEAKER_01
like, telling, and I think that doing is more important.
7
SPEAKER_00
The action.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
I m gonna show off these dudes.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, because I m like, anybody can say the right things, but doing the right things is hard.
7
SPEAKER_00
I think the same thing, man.
7
SPEAKER_00
At the end of the day, it s like, who s gonna commit and take the actions, you know?
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, well, that s the cynic in me, because I m like, anyone can say, you know, like, a good actor, you know, since we re in L.A., it s like, you see all the billboards, like, any good actor could convince you that they just absolutely adore you.
7
SPEAKER_01
But it doesn t mean anything unless they actually show up and do the things.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, do what they say they re going to do.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, like for years.
7
SPEAKER_00
Right.
7
SPEAKER_00
Consistently.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_00
What do you wish you got to say to your dad that you never got to say?
7
SPEAKER_00
Is there anything?
7
SPEAKER_01
Oh, it s hard to say.
7
SPEAKER_01
I mean, if we re really getting into it, I mean, my parents got divorced the year before he died.
7
SPEAKER_01
Basically, like when I graduated high school and they d sort of been like staying together for the kids, which in retrospect was a terrible idea.
7
SPEAKER_01
And they should have gotten divorced when we were like seven.
7
SPEAKER_01
I know that.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so it s kind of, it s unfortunate because I felt like I never got to know him as a, as his own, like thriving adult, because he was in this relationship.
7
SPEAKER_01
Like basically their whole situation, like didn t seem that healthy.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so now, you know, I m like, oh, they should ve just gotten divorced when we were kids.
7
SPEAKER_01
And then both been like happy, independent adults.
7
SPEAKER_01
And we could have actually gotten to know them as real people instead of having this kind of like dour, you know, like non-person.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
Cause in the year that after he got divorced, he was sort of starting to thrive in his own, you know, he was like kind of psyched on his own stuff and like doing his thing, but then he died.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so, you know, it s hard to really know him cause.
7
SPEAKER_00
Right.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, because the things I hear from all my family members on his side of the family, you know, things like before I was born.
7
SPEAKER_01
So we were like, oh, it s really different than the person that I knew.
7
SPEAKER_00
Is there anything you wish you could have said to him that you didn t get to or?
7
SPEAKER_01
No, no.
7
SPEAKER_01
Man, last night, one of my wife s really good friends, we listened to a really long audio message from her that she had just had a family member die, but she left this long audio message that was basically this very heartwarming story about how she had just crafted this long message to the family member, telling him how much they meant to them and blah, blah, and then basically the person was dying the next day.
7
SPEAKER_01
Oh, man.
7
SPEAKER_01
And his daughter had the opportunity to like read this message to him before he died.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so this friend, you know, it was incredibly, it was all like, I was like, man, this is a lot.
7
SPEAKER_01
It was like a straight up Hallmark card.
7
SPEAKER_01
Deep.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it was deep.
7
SPEAKER_01
I was like, wow.
7
SPEAKER_01
But I also was like, wow, that s kind of incredible.
7
SPEAKER_01
Because she was so much more at peace with the death, knowing that anything she ever possibly could have wanted to say, she managed to say to the person before they died.
7
SPEAKER_01
And they died knowing everything that they meant to this person.
7
SPEAKER_01
You know, I was like, oh, that was my takeaway.
7
SPEAKER_01
I was like, man, if you know, if you have any friends, like you should just say the thing before.
7
SPEAKER_01
And that s why your wife wants words of affirmations.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, exactly.
7
SPEAKER_01
But at least when she does, she ll know that I was always there for her.
7
SPEAKER_00
I didn t tell you how I felt, but I showed you how I felt.
7
SPEAKER_01
That s exactly, exactly.
7
SPEAKER_01
I didn t tell you enough, but I did try to show you.
7
SPEAKER_00
But you just said right there, you should say to the people you care about.
7
SPEAKER_00
I know, I know.
7
SPEAKER_00
But it s, you know, it s harder to do.
7
SPEAKER_00
Do you feel like that s one of your greatest mountains to climb right now, is to actually step into that, or is that just... Maybe.
7
SPEAKER_01
I mean, that s probably a big part of being a good dad, so...
7
SPEAKER_01
But we re not quite there yet, thankfully, at this point.
7
SPEAKER_01
They re not old enough yet for them to communicate that way.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
Right now, the big challenge this morning, the diaper I changed, had poop going all the way up the back, through multiple layers of clothing.
7
SPEAKER_01
No.
7
SPEAKER_01
And destroyed everything.
7
SPEAKER_01
Not destroyed, but... Right, right.
7
SPEAKER_00
Sprayed everywhere.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
But then trying to take off the dirty shirts, you know, you get poop in the hair, you get poop in every... I was like, this is... Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
Wow, man.
7
SPEAKER_01
Parenting is at a different phase right now.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s like poop everywhere.
7
SPEAKER_00
I m sure you ll look back at the memory and it ll be better than the moment, but we were talking about before we started rolling about your biggest challenge.
7
SPEAKER_00
And you were kind of mentioning, like right now, and you were kind of mentioning what to do when you were underperforming.
7
SPEAKER_00
And you said you feel like you re failing a lot or not living up to an expectation.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, not necessarily failing, but yeah, just not performing at the level that you think you should.
7
SPEAKER_00
So why do you think that s happening in your life right now?
7
SPEAKER_01
It s hard to say.
7
SPEAKER_00
I mean... And your failure is still like the greatest in the world at what you re doing.
7
SPEAKER_01
No, I m not the greatest in the world, but I d say my sucking is still pretty good, but it s way worse than what I think it should be.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s hard to know.
7
SPEAKER_00
Why do you think that s happening?
7
SPEAKER_01
I don t know.
7
SPEAKER_01
No.
7
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it s a long, long sordid tale, you know.
7
SPEAKER_01
Like, I did an expedition this summer where a partner and I bicycled 2,000 miles to Alaska and then climbed some mountains.
7
SPEAKER_01
But it was basically a two-month trip.
7
SPEAKER_01
And over the course of the trip, I kind of got ground to dust.
7
SPEAKER_01
Like, I was kind of worked.
7
SPEAKER_01
You were worn out.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I was, like, worn out.
7
SPEAKER_00
2,000 miles is a long time.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, but he was doing well.
7
SPEAKER_01
For whatever reason, though, I just wasn t really recovering and it was kind of like getting worse and worse.
7
SPEAKER_01
Typically, with a lot of exercise, if you get enough rest, you respond to it and you get better and better.
7
SPEAKER_01
In this case, I was kind of just getting worse the whole time.
7
SPEAKER_01
And then I came back and was kind of sucking for a month or two.
7
SPEAKER_01
But that was kind of understandable because I was like, I m digging back out of this hole.
7
SPEAKER_01
And the expedition was successful, you know, we did the things we were trying to do and it was cool and it ll be a film for National Geographic as well.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so, you know, it s like it s fine.
7
SPEAKER_01
Like I don t mind having a trip like that where you get ground to dust if you do the things that you set out to do.
7
SPEAKER_01
And then I don t mind spending some time recovering, like that s totally understandable.
7
SPEAKER_01
But I spent the time recovering and then since then I ve just never quite, you know, I keep having like moments where I feel
7
SPEAKER_01
about as good as I think I should be, and then it kind of disappears again.
7
SPEAKER_01
Really?
7
SPEAKER_01
Like physically or mentally?
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, physically.
7
SPEAKER_01
But I feel like the mental side follows the physical, as a professional athlete especially, because if you just can t do the thing that you want to do, you know, I mean, even doing like a podcast like this, it s like basically, you know, it s the school of greatness, but what if you re not great?
7
SPEAKER_01
Then what do you do?
7
SPEAKER_01
Should I just like walk out right now?
7
SPEAKER_00
Should I just give up?
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, because for the last couple weeks, I haven t been that great, or like last couple months, I haven t been that great, so I m like, should I just go?
7
SPEAKER_00
Right.
7
SPEAKER_00
I ve had those seasons where I m just like,
7
SPEAKER_00
tired or maybe I ve just worked too hard and I feel like I m not able to be as present or at the top of my game.
7
SPEAKER_00
But I was telling you before, yesterday was our 11-year anniversary of the show where every week for 11 years the show has come out.
7
SPEAKER_00
That is impressive consistency.
7
SPEAKER_00
And you ve been doing this for 20 plus years.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s like you re not always going to win every game or be the best every time, every climb or every interview.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s not always going to be my
7
SPEAKER_00
greatest performance, but I think the consistency over time is a level of greatness, even if you didn t want to do it that day, even if it was a subpar performance.
7
SPEAKER_01
So that s the whole tough thing as a self-coached climber, is that
7
SPEAKER_01
So I agree, consistency and just showing up, and that s normally my approach for training and things.
7
SPEAKER_01
Even on the days where you kind of suck, you just grind out the... But if you re digging yourself into a hole, you re going to have to know when to put down the shovel and get out of the hole.
7
SPEAKER_01
True.
7
SPEAKER_01
Or rest.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
7
SPEAKER_01
And that s the challenge when you re like, am I sucking because I need
8
SPEAKER_01
more rest or am I sucking because I need to train harder and you just don t know which path you need to take and they re totally divergent paths that lead to totally different things.
8
SPEAKER_01
And so I think that recently I ve been sort of on the, I ve been doing a little bit of both, you know, and maybe not quite nailing either.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I m not sure which is the right, she ll spend a couple of weeks training harder and you re like, that s not working.
8
SPEAKER_00
I m going to take a week to recover more.
8
SPEAKER_00
That s not working.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
Like what do I do?
8
SPEAKER_01
A little bit of both.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
Like, you know, we re like training more, but then the whole family got sick and like the baby s sick and you re out in the middle of the night.
8
SPEAKER_01
And then you re sort of like, well, that winds up being like a week or two of rest as it turns out, like quote unquote rest.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
But like not heavy training load.
8
SPEAKER_01
And then you re sort of like, well, now I m doing both of them poorly.
8
SPEAKER_01
Like, I don t know which is better.
8
SPEAKER_00
I m not really recovering and I m not really double trading.
8
SPEAKER_01
And then baby number two shows up kind of soon.
8
SPEAKER_01
And so then you re just, I m just going to assume that that s not going to help.
8
SPEAKER_00
You re not doing either again.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, exactly.
8
SPEAKER_01
But in a way, I mean, I m not that stressed because I know long-term, like, this time next year, I ll probably be climbing pretty well, or at least climbing the same.
8
SPEAKER_01
Like, I m not too stressed in the long-term.
8
SPEAKER_01
But it s just slightly frustrating when you want to, when you feel like you could be doing better and you re not sure why, why you re not there.
8
SPEAKER_00
So in a year and a half, two years, you ll be 40, right?
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so I m 38, so yeah, in two years.
8
SPEAKER_00
You ll have a two-year-old and a four-year-old, essentially.
8
SPEAKER_00
Maybe another, I don t know, but you ll have at least two-year-old and a four-year-old.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, I ll have two daughters.
8
SPEAKER_00
And you will have lived 40 years of your life, and you will have accomplished so many incredible things that most climbers will never accomplish, ever.
8
SPEAKER_00
What do you feel like the next 10 years will be, if you could go into the future and think about the vision you might have, what do you see your life looking like?
8
SPEAKER_01
But this is, I mean, this is an interesting question and I ve been thinking about this a little bit because I think this is, I mean, I want to keep doing things that I m proud of and climbing and partially because I want my daughters to know someone who s proud of the things that they re doing and not proud of the things that they did.
8
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
8
SPEAKER_01
It s like kind of a subtle distinction.
8
SPEAKER_01
Interesting.
8
SPEAKER_01
But I don t want my daughters growing up with somebody who s like, oh, I used to do all these cool things as opposed to, like, I want them growing up with somebody who s excited to do cool things in the future and is like working on projects.
8
SPEAKER_01
Because I think that kind of motivation, that excitement to work on projects and get up early and train and have things that you re passionate about, I think that s important.
8
SPEAKER_01
And that s certainly something that I d love to pass on to my kids in a healthy way, not like a psycho pushing them away, but in a way for them to see someone who s fired up and living their best life.
8
SPEAKER_01
And so, you know, I mean, I am very proud of all the things that I ve done, but I think it s important to have just as many things that I want to do in the future because I think that s hopefully part of parenting, you know, like within reason, like I don t need something all-encompassing like El Cap, let s say, because that would probably take me away from family too much.
8
SPEAKER_01
But I can have goals that I am passionate about that I try very hard for and that I can still be around my family enough for.
8
SPEAKER_00
Sure.
8
SPEAKER_00
Do you have anything on your mind on what that will look like?
8
SPEAKER_01
Not, I don t know, nothing big right now.
8
SPEAKER_01
I mean this year I have a couple sort of like climbing travel like destination goals where like my family and I will go to a place and climb for a while.
8
SPEAKER_01
They aren t like objectives in terms of performance.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s more like to go to a place together and like have a good time climbing.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
Like hopefully be able to do something cool while I m in the places, but but it s not like right It s not the main not performance thing.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah But yeah, so in some ways I see this is sort of an in-between year I mean and also in the big picture if I m kind of like Oh the five year the first five years of my children s life I was a little underproductive as a climber like that doesn t seem crazy.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, like that s fine and
8
SPEAKER_01
And as long as I think that I can come out of that again at some point.
8
SPEAKER_01
Like, if you just told me, you know, you will underperform for five years while you raise your kids at the beginning, I d be like, that s totally fine.
8
SPEAKER_01
It d be like going to college or something where you re like, okay, well, I m going through this phase of life because I know it ll set me up better for the future.
8
SPEAKER_01
Like, because I know I want a family long-term.
8
SPEAKER_01
But I just want to know that I ll be okay again eventually.
8
SPEAKER_00
And you can go back and do these things again.
8
SPEAKER_01
Like I don t mind the grinding and training and like all that stuff if I think that eventually it ll pay off or like it ll work.
8
SPEAKER_01
You know, but I think that the challenge is when you start second guessing, like is this the wrong path?
8
SPEAKER_01
Like am I doing this all wrong?
8
SPEAKER_01
This is a waste of my time.
8
SPEAKER_00
Tell me about Arctic Ascent, because the trailer of this thing just blew me away.
8
SPEAKER_00
Tell me what the expedition is, was, and what we should look forward to as we watch this series.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yes, Arctic Ascent is a three-part series on National Geographic.
8
SPEAKER_01
It comes out kind of soon.
8
SPEAKER_01
And it was an expedition to Greenland, a six-week trip to Greenland, to a remote part of eastern Greenland.
8
SPEAKER_01
And it s sort of an interesting combination
8
SPEAKER_01
climbing adventure, we went and we climbed these two cool walls, one of which was a 4,000-foot sea cliff, like sticking straight out of the ocean.
8
SPEAKER_01
It was kind of insane.
8
SPEAKER_01
So you have to take a boat to get to the actual... Yeah, you take a boat to the base, you hop out of the boat, and then you climb 4,000 feet straight out of the fjord.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s pretty cool.
8
SPEAKER_01
That s crazy.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I d never done anything like that either.
8
SPEAKER_01
It was exciting.
8
SPEAKER_00
How cold was it?
8
SPEAKER_01
It was pretty freaking chilly.
8
SPEAKER_01
It was a north-facing wall in Greenland, so it wasn t warm.
8
SPEAKER_00
Winds are just blowing up against you, the waves are crashing against the wall.
8
SPEAKER_01
Well, the waves are crashing against the wall 4,000 feet below you.
8
SPEAKER_00
That s crazy, man.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s really far.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so it s like bigger than El Cap, bigger than, you know, it s a big, big wall.
8
SPEAKER_00
So no one had ever climbed it?
8
SPEAKER_00
Not that wall, no.
8
SPEAKER_00
Which is, yeah, it s part of the deal.
8
SPEAKER_00
So that was part of the excitement for you, to go try something that no one had ever tried?
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, exactly.
8
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it s probably one of the biggest unclimbed rock walls in the world like that.
8
SPEAKER_01
Because there aren t that many of 4,000 foot vertical walls.
8
SPEAKER_01
But, I mean, as you can imagine.
8
SPEAKER_00
So, I mean, how do you prepare mentally and emotionally for something that you ve never done and no one else has ever done?
8
SPEAKER_01
Well, I have done a lot of other first ascents and I have climbed a lot of other mountains and I ve climbed things of similar size and scale in different places.
8
SPEAKER_01
And so, you know, it s true that it s the first ascent I was ever climbed that rock.
8
SPEAKER_01
And as it turns out, that rock posed some unique challenges that I d never quite encountered before.
8
SPEAKER_01
I had like this crazy swirly rock that varied in quality and it was actually, it turned out it was pretty hard.
8
SPEAKER_01
But, you know, you just draw on all your experiences having done other things that are somewhat similar.
8
SPEAKER_01
And in that case, you also have a team.
8
SPEAKER_01
And so you re also drawing on the experiences of the team.
8
SPEAKER_01
And the team members were also incredibly skilled professional climbers.
8
SPEAKER_01
And so, you know, between everybody, you assume that somebody has what it takes.
8
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
8
SPEAKER_01
Or at least the team has what it takes.
8
SPEAKER_00
Do you think you could do it alone without, I mean, maybe having the support of people with ropes or whatever, but without other rock climber professionals kind of coaching and working with you?
8
SPEAKER_00
Could you have done it alone?
8
SPEAKER_01
Maybe, but it d be harder and it d be less fun.
8
SPEAKER_01
it wouldn t be the experience that you want necessarily.
8
SPEAKER_01
It d be a lot harder because sharing the psychological burden is a big part of it.
8
SPEAKER_01
Because when you re looking up at a 4,000 foot wall and you re not sure if it goes, every move is uncertain.
8
SPEAKER_01
We re like, am I going the right way?
8
SPEAKER_01
And so it s nice to be able to share that uncertainty with other people and let them think about it a little bit, let them make some decisions.
8
SPEAKER_01
Trust them to take the lead for a while and just take the rope up higher and then you can take over again.
8
SPEAKER_00
So you ll pass the lead is what you re saying.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you alternate leads.
8
SPEAKER_01
And so it allows you to relax while the other person s leading.
8
SPEAKER_01
In this case, on that particular climb, I was mostly climbing with this woman, Hazel Finley, who s a British climber, who s a professional climber, very, very good at that kind of thing.
8
SPEAKER_01
And so whenever she s leading, it allows me to totally relax and sort of recover and eat and drink and chill.
8
SPEAKER_01
Really?
8
SPEAKER_01
And she s incredibly stressed because she s leading and trying to figure out how to stay safe and where we should go and like what direction.
8
SPEAKER_01
But while she s stressing, you can just sit down there being like, ah,
8
SPEAKER_01
Really?
8
SPEAKER_00
You mean you re like, you re, you re, you re hooked in and you re just kind of dangling?
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I m hooked in and I m feeding the rope out to her.
8
SPEAKER_01
I m like, I m belaying, I m holding on to the rope, so I m like protecting her.
8
SPEAKER_01
But I m also sort of eating, drinking and relaxing.
8
SPEAKER_01
And then just like watching the icebergs go by on the fjord.
8
SPEAKER_01
You know, it s like you re just chilling.
8
SPEAKER_01
Because the thing is, as soon as she finishes her section of the climb and secures the rope, then she brings you up and then it s your turn to lead again.
8
SPEAKER_01
Oh man.
8
SPEAKER_01
And then when you re leading, it s suddenly stressful because you re like, should I go left?
8
SPEAKER_01
Should I go right?
8
SPEAKER_01
Like,
8
SPEAKER_01
left looks more dangerous but right looks like it might get blank and then we d have to backtrack and you know you re constantly like making all these route finding decisions of like which way it looks harder which way it looks easier but you re always dealing with incomplete set of information because no one s been there so many knows so you look up and you re like well it looks easy but what if it isn t like then you re screwed.
8
SPEAKER_00
Wow how long how long did that whole climb take?
8
SPEAKER_01
Well that particular 4,000 foot wall only took 10 days or so of the trip, but that s partially because we were just sort of cramming it in at the end.
8
SPEAKER_00
So climbing it took 10 days?
8
SPEAKER_01
No, like we pushed the ropes higher up and it rained a lot and it was crazy and then the final ascent took us two days, but it s because we d already gotten halfway up the wall.
8
SPEAKER_01
So you were sleeping on the wall?
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I was sleeping on the wall.
8
SPEAKER_01
So you were on the wall for 10 days?
8
SPEAKER_01
No, we were at a base camp, like, nearby.
8
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
8
SPEAKER_01
And then we were on the wall for two.
8
SPEAKER_01
Okay, gotcha.
8
SPEAKER_01
Like, we d been pushing higher and higher up the wall, and then finally, like, we did the whole thing in two days.
8
SPEAKER_00
So you push up, then come back down, base camp, push a little higher.
8
SPEAKER_01
And part of that s the nature of filming and everything, to make a TV show, is that you kind of have to do things like that to make sure that the camera people can be in position and things.
8
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
8
SPEAKER_01
But that trip, though, was a six-week expedition, and we d climbed this other wall, where we also camped on the wall.
8
SPEAKER_01
And we ski traversed across this ice cap, and we did a bunch of science, and
9
SPEAKER_00
I mean, when you re talking about, you know, purpose and things like that, I mean, in some ways this expedition is exactly that evolution because we had this scientist, Heidi Sylvester, who s amazing.
9
SPEAKER_00
She s this really passionate glaciologist.
9
SPEAKER_00
She s French.
9
SPEAKER_00
And so she was there doing a bunch of science experiments for different universities around the world, basically all like sort of climate science, like glaciology related.
9
SPEAKER_00
Because Greenland is one of the most important places in the world for climate change.
9
SPEAKER_00
And, you know, that s the kind of thing that makes a trip like that feel a little bit more worthwhile.
9
SPEAKER_01
It s not just you going after some adventure, but it s you working on research that you care about.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and working on something that actually matters for the world.
9
SPEAKER_00
You know, it s like, I can make a show where it s like, oh, we re just climbing this extreme rock.
9
SPEAKER_00
And you re like, that s cool.
9
SPEAKER_00
But realistically, I d rather just do that by myself and not make a show about it.
9
SPEAKER_00
You know, it s like if you re going to put something on television, it may as well be somewhat useful and it may as well, you know, highlight important parts of the world and bring knowledge around things that matter.
9
SPEAKER_00
And so, you know, the Greenland ice sheet is melting.
9
SPEAKER_00
The ice sheet is the big part in the middle, like when you look at a map of Greenland, it s like the whole center of Greenland is ice.
9
SPEAKER_00
And if the Greenland ice sheet melts, you know, it raises sea levels by something like 20 feet, which affects hundreds of million people around the world.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s like, you know, half the major cities in the world are on the coast.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s like, you know, New York and, like, London and Tokyo, like all these places, the water, Buenos Aires, I don t know.
9
SPEAKER_00
And so, but nobody thinks about Greenland.
9
SPEAKER_00
You know, like nobody thinks about the Greenland ice sheet.
9
SPEAKER_01
Not many people live there too.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, nobody lives there.
9
SPEAKER_00
I mean, in Greenland, some people live on the... Yeah, but even in Greenland, like so few people live in Greenland.
9
SPEAKER_00
And so, you know, I think that in some ways that makes a trip like that feel a lot more worthwhile.
9
SPEAKER_01
Wow, that s cool.
9
SPEAKER_00
And that s part of your foundation too, right?
9
SPEAKER_00
Well, the work my foundation is doing is unrelated to something like this expedition.
9
SPEAKER_00
But yeah, I have a foundation that supports solar projects around the world and has been doing so for the last decade or so.
9
SPEAKER_01
Wow, that s cool.
9
SPEAKER_01
What made you want to get into that?
9
SPEAKER_00
Same idea, just trying to do something useful.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
You know, just feeling like climbing is fun and I love doing it, but ultimately climbing is just for you or, you know, just for me.
9
SPEAKER_01
It s like... It s like a selfish endeavor in some sense.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
Or it s a personal... Like, yeah, people always say climbing is selfish.
9
SPEAKER_00
Like climbers like to say, like, climbing is selfish.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I don t really love that because like any human activity is sort of selfish.
9
SPEAKER_00
Sure, sure.
9
SPEAKER_00
Or most human activities are.
9
SPEAKER_00
But yeah, climbing is generally...
9
SPEAKER_00
a self-driven pursuit.
9
SPEAKER_00
And it s nice to do something slightly more useful in the world.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
With the foundation, it kind of came about because
9
SPEAKER_00
You know, and I m sure you can relate to being given all kinds of interesting opportunities that are fun and you don t want to turn them down.
9
SPEAKER_00
But you also don t totally need them because your livelihood is already made.
9
SPEAKER_00
I was living in a van.
9
SPEAKER_00
I m totally comfortable.
9
SPEAKER_00
I m doing the things I want to do.
9
SPEAKER_00
I m having a great time.
9
SPEAKER_00
I m living my best life.
9
SPEAKER_00
And if somebody offers you like a TV commercial thing and you re like, I d like to do it.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s fun.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s crazy money for like doing almost no work.
9
SPEAKER_00
But you re kind of like, why do that if you don t need to?
9
SPEAKER_00
And the Foundation was a nice way to say yes to the fun opportunities, but then use that for something useful in the world.
9
SPEAKER_01
Oh, that s cool.
9
SPEAKER_00
How long were you living in the van for?
9
SPEAKER_00
Like 15 years or something.
9
SPEAKER_01
15 years living in the van?
9
SPEAKER_00
I lived in this really small Ford Econoline for like a van you can t stand up in for nine years, I think.
9
SPEAKER_00
And then I lived in a Dodge Promaster for another five-ish or six-ish.
9
SPEAKER_01
How much was those two cars?
9
SPEAKER_00
How much did they cost?
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
The first one I think was, uh, I think it was 10 grand.
9
SPEAKER_00
10 grand.
9
SPEAKER_01
You lived in that for nine years?
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
I think so.
9
SPEAKER_00
That s crazy.
9
SPEAKER_00
And then the first one, uh, I went through three different build outs in it.
9
SPEAKER_00
And the first build out my uncle and I did with random wood he had around his shop that was just leftover.
9
SPEAKER_00
So literally the band costs, you know, yeah, 10 grand.
9
SPEAKER_00
And then I lived in it.
9
SPEAKER_00
For several years and then I redid the interior a couple times as I got a little more.
9
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you got a couple dollars here there Yeah, so I spent another like five grand redoing the interior.
9
SPEAKER_00
Oh, yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it was big big money and then the second time I splurged buying a new Promaster a van that I could stand in and nice with like a little like Faucet or like a bathroom.
9
SPEAKER_00
Oh, yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
So the van was just new and nice and that was like I
9
SPEAKER_00
30k or something and then the bill that was probably I don t know another 10 or 20.
9
SPEAKER_01
So how long did you live in that one?
9
SPEAKER_00
Another five, six years.
9
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
9
SPEAKER_00
And then that one I would have kept living in but I actually crashed it sadly.
9
SPEAKER_00
I rolled it.
9
SPEAKER_00
It was a total botch.
9
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
9
SPEAKER_00
And then but then coincidentally we found out that my wife was pregnant right after that so we were kind of like well we need something different anyway because it doesn t have any seats.
9
SPEAKER_01
So what, did you get a bus?
9
SPEAKER_00
No, now we have a longer van.
9
SPEAKER_00
A longer van?
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, still like a van that you can camp in.
9
SPEAKER_00
With your daughter?
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, we ve camped with her several months.
9
SPEAKER_01
Do you live in the van still?
9
SPEAKER_00
No, we live in a house, but now we go to Yosemite for a month or two every year with the family, with the babies.
9
SPEAKER_00
So you ve upgraded to a house?
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I live in a house, and then also we ve upgraded the van.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, both, yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
Now it has kid seats.
9
SPEAKER_01
So 15 years, man, in a van almost.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
But by choice, because you were like, I want to be able to travel, I want to be remote, I don t want to have a lot of possessions.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, maybe it was like 12 or 13 really, like in the van, because we bought the house.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s been a steady transition where we re in the house more.
9
SPEAKER_00
I mean, especially with kids now, we re in the house more.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, of course.
9
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
9
SPEAKER_00
Though I wouldn t be surprised if, as the kids grow up a little bit, we can be in the van more again.
9
SPEAKER_01
That s cool, man.
9
SPEAKER_00
But having infants, it s like, it s just having the routine and nap time is just easier with a house.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
What s the greatest lesson you learned living in a van for 12 years?
9
SPEAKER_00
That you just don t need that much stuff.
9
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I think that s the main thing.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s like, you just don t need stuff.
9
SPEAKER_00
I mean, you want to do whatever you want to do in your life.
9
SPEAKER_00
Just focus on doing that thing and you don t need any of the extra stuff.
9
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I still have that problem with my wife all the time.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s like she has decorations and things.
9
SPEAKER_00
I m like, why does this exist?
9
SPEAKER_00
Like, what is this?
9
SPEAKER_00
You know, like a throw pillow.
9
SPEAKER_00
We don t need it.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s called a throw pillow because you throw it in the trash.
9
SPEAKER_00
Like you don t use it for anything.
9
SPEAKER_00
It just like decorative pillows drive me insane.
9
SPEAKER_00
Like stuff that doesn t have any function.
9
SPEAKER_00
No value.
9
SPEAKER_00
Not even as value, but if you don t use it all the time, like, I just don t want to be a slave to my stuff.
9
SPEAKER_00
Like, you don t want to be, like, moving your stuff around.
9
SPEAKER_00
You know, the thing about living in a van is that you have very few things and it s all the stuff that you need.
9
SPEAKER_00
Like, it s only in the van because you use it all the time.
9
SPEAKER_01
And you spend your time on the things you want to do and not, I guess, managing things and stuff.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
You know, it s just like a simpler lifestyle that s devoted entirely to the thing that you want to do.
9
SPEAKER_00
I mean, the thing with being in a van is that it is fundamentally uncomfortable.
9
SPEAKER_00
You know, like you don t have a shower, you don t have a bathroom, you don t have whatever.
9
SPEAKER_00
And so, it is harder living.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s like colder, you re more exposed to the elements.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s like you re living in a box parked on the side of the road a lot of the time.
9
SPEAKER_00
So, it s not that comfortable, but it means that you re totally focused on whatever you re in the van for.
9
SPEAKER_00
You know, it s like either you re there to go hiking or to go backpacking.
9
SPEAKER_00
You know, in my case, I m always there to go climbing.
9
SPEAKER_00
But it s like you re there to climb, so you climb.
9
SPEAKER_00
You know like on rest days you go scrambling because it s like there s not that much to do in your van.
9
SPEAKER_00
Right, right.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s like you just wind up being totally focused on the thing that you re doing.
9
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s cool, man.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s a cool lifestyle.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s a very intentional lifestyle.
9
SPEAKER_00
Very intentional.
9
SPEAKER_01
And I think that that kind of intention can be brought to normal life.
9
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely, yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
Well, we can watch the show.
9
SPEAKER_01
It s on Nat Geo launching February 4th on Disney+, right?
9
SPEAKER_01
Arctic Ascent with Alex Honnold.
9
SPEAKER_01
And I m excited for this, man.
9
SPEAKER_01
The trailer, again, looks incredible.
9
SPEAKER_01
So congrats on this.
9
SPEAKER_01
It s going to be a lot of fun.
9
SPEAKER_01
How else can we support you or follow you besides checking out the show and checking out your foundation?
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I mean, you can go to honnoldfoundation.org, see the work that my foundation is doing with solar projects around the world.
9
SPEAKER_00
I mean, anybody can follow me on any social platform, just Alex Honnold.
9
SPEAKER_01
I ve got a couple of final questions for you, but this has been inspiring, so I appreciate your time, Alex.
9
SPEAKER_01
This is a question I ask everyone at the end of my interviews called the three truths.
9
SPEAKER_01
It s a hypothetical question.
9
SPEAKER_01
Imagine you get to live as long as you want to live, but it s the last day.
9
SPEAKER_01
You ve accomplished everything, you ve experienced life, you ve learned to, you know, share words of affirmation with your wife eventually, you know, all this.
9
SPEAKER_00
So I ve lived to 750.
9
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
9
SPEAKER_01
It s taken a while.
9
SPEAKER_01
Everything you want to create, you know, you ve lived a great life from this moment until the end of time.
9
SPEAKER_01
But it s the last day for you, and for whatever reason, you have to take everything you ve ever created with you.
9
SPEAKER_01
So this interview is gone.
9
SPEAKER_01
Books you write, the movies you ve been in, anything, all the social media posts that you love putting out there, they re gone.
9
SPEAKER_01
However, you do get to leave behind three things, three lessons that you leave to the world.
9
SPEAKER_01
I like to call it three truths.
9
SPEAKER_01
What would those three truths be for you, do you think?
9
SPEAKER_01
Man, I just don t know.
9
SPEAKER_01
This is all we would have to remember you by.
9
SPEAKER_00
I just don t, I think if I was at the end of my life and I was content, I would just go, I don t know if I d have any truths.
9
SPEAKER_00
So I think if you wipe the rest of the slate clean, it s just like, I just don t think that, I mean, to me, I think that the whole.
9
SPEAKER_01
But if people had, they wanted to remember you by something and they could only remember three things that you learned and experienced and you were able to share those things, what would those three things be, do you think?
10
SPEAKER_00
go big! 
10
SPEAKER_00
with an exclamation point.
10
SPEAKER_00
I use that as a... I sign things that way when you have to sign things at events.
10
SPEAKER_00
But it s kind of also one of my favorite things now, just go big.
10
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, go for it.
10
SPEAKER_00
You can sort of take whatever lesson you want from it, but it s like, do the thing, you know, like, try.
10
SPEAKER_00
But I think that also that just sums up so much of my scene, just go big.
10
SPEAKER_02
Go big.
10
SPEAKER_02
One truth.
10
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s my one truth.
10
SPEAKER_00
Go big.
10
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
10
SPEAKER_00
I kind of think so, because...
10
SPEAKER_00
I just think to get into other truths requires too much nuance and subtlety and like, you know, the richness of a life.
10
SPEAKER_00
And I just don t know if you can distill that down to it.
10
SPEAKER_00
Just be like, yeah, if everything else is being wiped, you just step away and you re just, you re just gone.
10
SPEAKER_00
That s fine.
10
SPEAKER_00
But this goes back to everyone s replaceable.
10
SPEAKER_00
You know, I m like, if my whole life gets erased, like there ll be somebody else leading an awesome life.
10
SPEAKER_00
You know, like all the things that I ve learned from climbing, somebody else could learn from unicycling or whatever other activity.
10
SPEAKER_00
You know, it s like, I think that human lives in many ways are sort of interchangeable.
10
SPEAKER_00
You know, like we can all learn how to lead good lives in different ways.
10
SPEAKER_00
You know, like somebody can devote their entire life to their garden and still learn all the same things that I have in my life.
10
SPEAKER_00
But like experiencing hardship and trying hard and like overcoming and persevering, like anybody can learn that however.
10
SPEAKER_02
Sort of like, I don t know.
10
SPEAKER_02
What would be one extra thing you would leave behind for your daughters?
10
SPEAKER_02
If you could share a truth with them.
10
SPEAKER_00
Dad who loves you.
10
SPEAKER_00
It s my, I don t know.
10
SPEAKER_00
I think that s probably the, I mean, if you re gonna leave your child one thing, that s probably the most important thing.
10
SPEAKER_00
Like you are loved, I guess.
10
SPEAKER_02
That s beautiful, man.
10
SPEAKER_02
That s a good one.
10
SPEAKER_02
Honestly.
10
SPEAKER_02
That s beautiful, man.
10
SPEAKER_00
We ll see if I can manage that when the time comes.
10
SPEAKER_02
Oh man, that s beautiful.
10
SPEAKER_02
Before I ask the final question, Alex, I want to acknowledge you, man, for what a life you have lived and an intentional life on the things that you wanted to pursue and are still pursuing.
10
SPEAKER_02
But again, living a life in a van essentially for 12, 13 years, very intentional to pursue something you care about the most.
10
SPEAKER_02
I just want to acknowledge you for
10
SPEAKER_02
going big, like going for it and consistently going for it.
10
SPEAKER_02
But I also want to acknowledge you for allowing yourself to evolve at this new season of life, you know, uh, having kids, raising a family, being in a relationship and allowing yourself to also evolve.
10
SPEAKER_02
Like you went, you ve been going big, but you re also evolving with it as well.
10
SPEAKER_02
And I think it s really inspiring that people can have both love in their lives, relationships, but also be pursuing their dreams at the highest level, even if no one else has done that.
10
SPEAKER_02
So it s really cool what you ve done.
10
SPEAKER_02
And I just want to acknowledge you for that, for this moment, of course.
10
SPEAKER_00
That s something actually that my wife has always pushed.
10
SPEAKER_00
There s this false contrast between like doing rad things and being in a good relationship, which I think you re often portrayed that way in media is like, you can either be alone doing something rad,
10
SPEAKER_00
or you can be in a happy relationship.
10
SPEAKER_00
My wife is always like, why don t you do the rad thing in a happy relationship?
10
SPEAKER_00
And basically from the very beginning of our relationship, she s always kind of been steadfast and like, why don t you just do something hard while being well-adjusted in a good relationship?
10
SPEAKER_00
And it s funny because until we got together, I was always like,
10
SPEAKER_00
I was like, is that an option?
10
SPEAKER_00
I kind of thought you needed the angst and the turmoil and the like, suffering.
10
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
10
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_00
The dark, like the dark artist.
10
SPEAKER_00
And now being with her, I m like, Oh yeah, okay.
10
SPEAKER_00
I guess you can actually just have a really nice life and still do hard things, but just do it with a big smile.
10
SPEAKER_00
I m like, it is kind of a better way to go.
10
SPEAKER_00
Way better way to go and support and friendship and collaboration and all that stuff.
10
SPEAKER_02
Um, final question, Alex, what s your definition of greatness?
10
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I think I d just go with this sort of standard definition of like doing hard things, like achieving things I haven t done before.
10
SPEAKER_00
And I mean, I know that I should take a more inclusive, you know, just like living a good life and all that.
10
SPEAKER_00
But I m like, no, I think of greatness as doing something challenging that hasn t been done before.
10
SPEAKER_01
I hope today s episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness.
10
SPEAKER_01
Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today s show with all the important links.
10
SPEAKER_01
And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel on apple podcast.
10
SPEAKER_01
If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend.
10
SPEAKER_01
Leave us a review over on Apple podcast and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis Howes.
10
SPEAKER_01
I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better.
10
SPEAKER_01
And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness Newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com slash newsletter.
10
SPEAKER_01
And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.
10
SPEAKER_01
And now it s time to go out there and do something great.