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Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert.
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I m Dax Shepard, I m joined by Monica Lilly Padman.
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Hi.
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Hello.
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Hello.
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Hello.
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We have a very fun and youthful guest on today.
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Yes, we do.
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Maisie Williams.
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Oh my God, I fell in love with her as Arya Stark.
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Maybe, I don t know, tied for me with The Hound.
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Oh, Arya, no, she s the best.
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She s the best?
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Yeah.
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Okay, I like them both so much.
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Sure, I mean, there s so many good characters.
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The Hound s great because he s a bad guy and he s good at times.
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That s a very infectious archetype for me.
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Well, Ari is the opposite.
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She s a good girl, but she can be bad.
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She s a naughty girl, too.
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Well, Maisie s been in a bunch of stuff other than Game of Thrones.
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The New Mutants, Pistol, Doctor Who, Then Came You, and she has a new series out now on Apple TV Plus called The New Look, which tells the story of Christian Dior, Coco Chanel, and their contemporaries.
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This show is made for Monica.
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Let s just call it what it is.
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This is Monica s show.
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It should have been called Monica s show.
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And it s timely because it was just Paris Fashion Week.
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Oh, perfect.
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And do you want to hear something?
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I wonder if they timed that.
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If they were smart, they did.
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Yeah, they re pretty smart at Apple.
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Well, listen, The Row had a show.
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The Row show?
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Uh-huh, but they sent an email or in the invite or whatever, they told people no social media.
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Oh, so what does that mean?
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So no one took pictures and posted, which like most of these shows, it s people have video and pictures and it s a whole.
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Do you think they took people s phone when they came in?
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They must have, because how would you control that?
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Well, I think they just, it was like,
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You re entering into agreement by coming?
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What s it called?
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Like, faith, honor system.
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Honor system.
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The faith s friendship.
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And they got, they provided everyone with a very fancy pencil.
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Okay.
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Black wing pencil.
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I did end up buying some after I heard about this because I needed that.
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Do you write with pencils?
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I do now.
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Oh, okay.
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And like a cool notebook for people to write notes and draw pictures.
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Oh, so they were free to draw sketches of what they saw.
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Exactly.
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Well, Maisie s a veritable historian on fashion as well.
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She was totally invited.
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She knows her shit.
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Yeah.
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Please enjoy Maisie Williams.
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Hi, welcome.
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Lovely to meet you.
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You too.
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Thank you.
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Were you offered all the beverages?
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Yeah, I just was kind of freaking out over this that looks like a beer, but it s water.
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And there s NA beer.
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Kettle.
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There ll be a wardrobe change for the big picture.
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Oh.
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Oh, you have a t-shirt.
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Are you a fan?
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Oh.
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Okay, wow.
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Come on.
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You re not prepared.
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Have you ever met anyone who wasn t a fan?
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Yeah.
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Really?
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No.
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Yeah.
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They were like, you wasn t a fan.
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That was a liar.
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Not a fan, just not seen it.
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in the world.
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Well, I don t know.
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There are a couple.
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But also, what a good litmus test.
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If they go like, oh right, I never saw it.
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I would go, wonderful, have a good life.
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And then I would just turn around and walk.
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And you d never see me.
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Or maybe you might like it.
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Do you like it when people don t know you?
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It is sometimes quite nice.
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I feel like a lot of my friends are people who have no idea.
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Yeah, and that s kind of nice, some non-fan friends.
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You know, Monica s making this weird decision to not watch a certain boy s show because she might date him.
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And I think that s crazy.
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Do you get it?
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I get it.
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Yeah.
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Tell me how you get it.
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Well, I don t know.
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Everyone I ve ever dated don t have a clue.
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They don t care.
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I get to introduce myself.
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Yes, you get to win them over organically and you get to earn it.
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But I m talking about the reverse.
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Would you protect yourself from seeing, let s say I met you.
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You re going to have to play along.
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I m 62 years older than you.
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But somehow I charmed you at a place, and then we exchanged numbers, and then we were gonna hang out.
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Then one of your friends was like, I know that dude, he was on Parenthood.
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Do you think you would not be able to watch that show without it somehow poisoning the well?
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Yeah, I feel like then I would be like a little starstruck around them.
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Exactly, and that is not good for dating.
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You re wrong.
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I m a wrong.
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I m on a roll of being wrong.
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So do you think that like if you charm someone Can you imagine and then would you like it if you were kind of charming girl?
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You know that they hadn t seen something Would you find it kind of flattering that they went away and watch the whole thing?
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Here s what I think and a lot of people wrestle with this This is a debate that comes up in here all the time and I think I can sum it up although you re gonna be an anomaly for this because you didn t have the full experience and
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But I think if you re someone who did just fine in high school dating, that kind of thing s not an issue for you.
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If you didn t attract the attention of any boys or girls, then this thing becomes a lot more complicated.
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So I m not gonna assume that some gal watched Parenthood and now is in love with Crosby, the character I played.
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And from where I sit, if I ve expressed interest in you, then one of the first things I d wanna do as my homework is like, oh, what s the thing that was really important to you?
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What was a big chunk of your life?
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I d like to make sure I know about that.
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That s you.
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Once you re dating, you can- Post-coital?
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Yeah.
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Four or five dates in, you can start the show, but not at the beginning.
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You don t understand about playing it cool.
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I know.
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I know.
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But I also do because I did okay in high school.
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Whatever.
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That was all so long ago.
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How about this though?
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You meet a boy.
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You like each other.
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If you re interested in boys.
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Both.
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You meet a boy or a gal, it doesn t matter.
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You meet a human being and there s sparky sparks flying.
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In learning about one another at dinner, you go like, well, yeah, for 12 years of my life, I was very busy doing this thing.
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That s why I didn t go to school or whatever you say.
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And then the boy or girl runs off and then they go and watch it.
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They re like, we can t hang out.
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I have a lot of seasons of this show to get through.
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Yeah, I ll see you in six months.
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But what do you think about that?
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Does that not feel flattering?
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I could imagine me being a little flattered, but only if they didn t then pedestal the whole thing.
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Yes.
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You know what I mean?
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Yes.
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If there s a huge power imbalance in any relationship and one person s a fan and in awe of you, well, that s a deal breaker.
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But I think that person would be that way with or without watching the show.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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I think they re either prone to that or not.
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I ll do interviews in the very well-intentioned Good Morning America or whatever.
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Like, don t you just worship your wife?
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And I m like, puke?
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No, that would be...
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Fucking really gross relationship.
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I thought she was like otherworldly or something.
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But you weren t a fan of hers before.
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You were exactly the opposite.
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You didn t know her work.
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I wasn t not a fan.
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I hadn t seen Veronica Mars.
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Maybe that s why it worked.
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Exactly.
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You didn t go in with any expectation.
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Once you were together, then you saw the show.
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And then you re like, oh, this is a good show.
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True.
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But I think it would have worked both ways.
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I wouldn t have been peeing my pants because she was Ron Mars.
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You sometimes pee your pants.
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Name a time I peed my pants.
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It was like three.
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Yeah, there are people.
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I don t want to say because sometimes they ve come in here.
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Like Lisa Bonet.
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Oh, you must know Lisa Bonet.
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I m going to ask you some questions in a minute and thank you for your patience.
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No, that was great.
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I love this.
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I think I m in the phase of trying to win you over because you re young and I m old and I m insecure.
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Don t be insecure.
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Have you ever tended to elevate someone up to a level that wasn t tenable?
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I don t know.
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There s like Beyonce.
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I think that I definitely get starstruck more than most famous people do.
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But I do understand that everyone is just a person, but I think that I m kind of just awkward like that sometimes.
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But don t you think after like two months of dating and they pooped with the door open and they brush their teeth, don t you think it would wear off?
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Definitely.
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Oh, it would wear off on anyone.
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But it s just that immediate thing.
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And maybe it s more that whole thing of how I should be acting or should be feeling.
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And you re not in your body actually really at that moment, which is why you re getting so like, I can t believe this person is in front of me.
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But actually, I think if I were to just like zip it in, yeah, obviously, they re just a normal person.
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Now, that s a great point.
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So if the person s celebrity or their talent has the outcome of you feeling self-conscious, then yeah, you shouldn t do it.
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Is that what you think might happen?
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Is like, if you love this show, then you might find yourself being self-conscious.
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Like, I hope this goes well.
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That is so me.
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It makes me thrown a little bit in myself.
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And then I m like, oh, I feel like I m getting further away from my own destiny here.
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It shakes your confidence.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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And then you can t really be you.
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Exactly.
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Like, I wouldn t want to watch things.
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I wouldn t want to do things because it would just put me in a place that was not as authentic as it was before.
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It would amplify.
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Do you think that s what it is?
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I think that plays a part.
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SPEAKER_00
Eventually, it would be so funny.
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SPEAKER_01
Exactly, but that s why you just have to get through that first hump.
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Oh, figuratively and literally.
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I have an armchair theory on why you re starstruck.
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SPEAKER_00
Okay, go for it, please.
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There s the obvious thing that you were really young when you started going to these things.
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But I think beyond that, if ever there was a show that was so physically removed from Hollywood, did you shoot that 10 months a year or something?
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Depends on the season, but yeah, a lot of the year.
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And you re out in the fucking forest, right?
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You don t even know if people watch the show.
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It is not glamorous at all.
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So then you take an airplane ride, I m guessing.
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You re nailing it.
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From a forest in Ireland or wherever the fuck y all are.
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And then you land in Hollywood and then you go to the Emmys and it occurs to you everyone in this town is obsessed with this thing and wasn t sure it s on.
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That s exactly it.
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I was so far removed from the glamour.
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of this industry and this celebrity.
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And then that part of my life was so tiny and compared to how long we would spend making the show and doing school and everything else, it felt like that was the reality and not the excitement side of it.
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Did you feel like when you were at the Emmys that you were like, somehow I ve teleported to this thing that cannot be real?
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Definitely.
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I feel like I would just float through and just not really have any idea what was going on.
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I actually think back to those nights and I m like, I just don t know really where I was.
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Disassociated.
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Really.
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And I remember even after we won Best Show on the final season, we were all backstage doing all the interviews and I just literally remember being the whole time just like...
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Like a doe-eyed.
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Yeah, fully.
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And then it s like, we re all going to go out.
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And I was like, I think I just need to go home.
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This is really overwhelming.
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Also, here s another guess I have about how abstract the experience was, is acting s acting.
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Whatever lines you re given in whatever show you re giving, you re trying your hardest to do the best.
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And then you need to feel connected to your scene partner or not.
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Now, then the show can have this otherworldly magic, and it can be so big and impressive.
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that I might feel a little disjunction between what I do in the woods, which is pretty simple.
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I like talk to people.
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I cry sometimes.
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And then, and I m asking what famous person s coming up to you at the Emmy s just going like, Oh my God, Aria, you re the recipient of this global phenomena.
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That s so expansive yet the reactions directed at you in the work itself is not terribly unlike any other work you would do.
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Yeah, the preparation, the time and the dedication and when something s got the distribution.
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Went to the Screen Actors Guild Awards and it was crazy because it was the year of Jennifer Lawrence and she like shot past all of us and was like, I love your show so much!
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She s like the biggest star in the world.
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I mean, still is, but that was unbelievable.
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Myself and Sophie were just like,
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Oh my God.
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It s like the one person that we re all dying to see.
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And then she s like, I love your shower.
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Stands on the red carpet, does her pose and runs into the award ceremony.
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We were like.
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It was actually quite funny because I went on the red carpet right after her and obviously all the cameras were just taking pictures of each other.
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And it was my first moment where I was like, you re not as cool as people are saying you are.
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Are those events insane?
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Just bizarre.
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Now I think that they re so fun.
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I don t know.
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My brain is closed over.
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Well, you ve practiced.
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Yes, exactly.
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And now I think that I can just laugh at the absurdity of everyone standing in these insane dresses with fans sweating like behind the scenes of it.
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I m just like, this is brilliant.
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This is a movie in itself.
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But before, I think I used to just really be very earnest with it and think this is the most prestigious thing and the best night of my life.
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And I should be so lucky.
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And now I just think it s silly.
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Yeah.
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There is a version that s highly enjoyable, but it s actually not the one you go in with thinking.
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What you just said, which again is more disjunction.
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This is supposed to feel like the most incredible thing in the world.
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And yet I kind of have to poop and I m a little hungry.
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SPEAKER_00
Why haven t I transcended the human plane?
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SPEAKER_00
Until you get to the point you re at, which is, oh my God, this is so comical.
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And then you have friends and you know people.
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And then it can be enjoyable again.
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But it s true.
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You re like, when am I going to feel like this is the best night of my life?
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Yes.
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We interviewed Jenna Ortega last year.
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SPEAKER_00
Mm-hmm.
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Do you know her?
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SPEAKER_00
Not personally, no.
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SPEAKER_00
I mean, you know of her.
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah, exactly.
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SPEAKER_02
I heard that episode.
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SPEAKER_02
Oh, you did?
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SPEAKER_00
Oh, you ve heard the show?
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SPEAKER_02
Oh, that s nice.
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SPEAKER_00
Oh, wonderful.
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SPEAKER_00
So the thing I really, really sympathized with her, because I had it on a much, much smaller level, but I had it, which is everyone around you has this expectation that you should be feeling, because we ve all succumbed to the fantasy.
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So you re having it, and you almost feel like you re letting everyone down around you that you re not elated.
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SPEAKER_00
Do you have any of that?
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SPEAKER_02
It s funny, I was speaking to my mum about coming on this press tour.
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She used to come on my press tours with me all the time and I always used to talk about how they were the worst part of it for me and I really didn t like it because exactly that.
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I just feel like this is supposed to be a lot of fun and anyone would kill to do this and I can t help but just feel like really, really tired, really overwhelmed.
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SPEAKER_02
I don t have any more answers to these questions.
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Like, I m not being funny.
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I feel so false.
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And then I m like, but in a week, you re going to be back in your life and you re going to miss this.
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So you should really be lucky.
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SPEAKER_00
Man it yourself.
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Yeah, like fully.
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And then I was saying to her, I m so excited for this press tour.
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I can t wait to see everyone.
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She s like, that s really funny to me because you used to hate that part.
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I was also a kid.
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But now I just feel like you can just ease into that a lot more.
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And it was really interesting listening to Gemma talking about it because I really could connect with those things.
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SPEAKER_02
But I do feel like it s getting way easier now.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, once you accept it all, everything gets way more fun and manageable.
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SPEAKER_00
The quicker you can get to that.
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SPEAKER_00
Or I used to be so obsessed with my privacy.
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SPEAKER_00
When paparazzi got Chris and I out, I was furious.
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SPEAKER_00
I m like, what is this?
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SPEAKER_00
And drove me nuts.
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SPEAKER_00
And now I just don t give a fuck.
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SPEAKER_01
Now you call them.
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SPEAKER_00
I call them every time we leave the house and I just pray they ll put us in something.
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SPEAKER_01
I have the nicest outfit on today.
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SPEAKER_01
Come on.
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SPEAKER_00
Yes, I just worked out.
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SPEAKER_00
Please photograph me.
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SPEAKER_01
But you re in such a weird position because you re so young and yet you are more experienced than most of the older actors working.
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SPEAKER_01
Kind of like the Mae Whitman thing where people think of you as a kid, but you re like, I ve been working for longer than you.
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SPEAKER_02
It s such a strange part of it.
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SPEAKER_02
I still feel like
1
SPEAKER_02
There s so much that I don t know, and I still feel very green.
1
SPEAKER_02
And especially because of COVID and strike, I feel like starting all over again, in a sense.
1
SPEAKER_01
You re very grounded.
1
SPEAKER_01
I m impressed.
1
SPEAKER_01
Verdict s not on me.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, we don t know yet?
1
SPEAKER_00
We re almost there.
1
SPEAKER_00
We don t know yet.
1
SPEAKER_00
She could definitely do 12 impressive minutes.
1
SPEAKER_00
Okay, you re right, you re right.
1
SPEAKER_00
Then she can start asking Rob for weird things.
1
SPEAKER_00
Once we get into an hour, we ll know.
1
SPEAKER_00
I had asked for a six bean salad.
1
SPEAKER_00
Is that around somewhere?
1
SPEAKER_02
But just in a sense, being on set, hitting your mark, and all of those little technical things, I feel like a pro.
1
SPEAKER_02
This feels kind of good, knowing what I m doing.
1
SPEAKER_02
Your job!
1
SPEAKER_02
You re good at your job.
1
SPEAKER_02
Totally, and like being in my light.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, Justine, if you notice the camera, you re blocked a little bit, and the camera guy s so happy and grateful for you.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, he like wipes the bead of sweat, and I m like, you know, I ve got you, don t worry about it.
1
SPEAKER_02
So that sort of thing is great.
1
SPEAKER_02
Otherwise, I just feel like I m always learning from other actors.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I feel like I ve done so much.
1
SPEAKER_02
But then I ve been working with Ben Mendelsohn on this show, and he has been acting since he was like eight years old.
1
SPEAKER_02
So I m like, okay, I know nothing, actually.
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, how old is he?
1
SPEAKER_00
He s only got you by four years on the start.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, true.
1
SPEAKER_00
You started at 12, he started at eight.
1
SPEAKER_00
No, he s like 79 or something.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Is everyone, you re 27?
1
SPEAKER_02
About to turn.
1
SPEAKER_00
So you re 26.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
I have to imagine.
1
SPEAKER_02
The number ruling.
1
SPEAKER_00
So let me get this straight.
1
SPEAKER_00
You re going to turn 27.
1
SPEAKER_00
You must be.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
You re still at an age where I have to believe everyone over 38 is just vaguely 50.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Is that gotta be the case?
1
SPEAKER_02
No.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, you remember your teachers when we were kids?
1
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
And how old are they in your mind?
1
SPEAKER_02
I know.
1
35, 40?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, but they weren t.
1
SPEAKER_02
They were 24.
1
I know.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s so sad.
1
SPEAKER_02
They were?
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
Kind of crazy.
1
SPEAKER_02
I feel like I m getting way better at that, actually.
1
SPEAKER_02
I have a brother who is in his mid-40s, and then my mom is in her 60s, so I feel like I have a good barometer now where I m like, where do they fit?
1
SPEAKER_02
Are they older or younger than my brother?
1
SPEAKER_00
You can speak my language.
1
SPEAKER_00
You have some of my references, hopefully.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s quite crazy that you said at the beginning of this interview, like, I m old.
1
SPEAKER_02
You are not old.
1
SPEAKER_02
I want to go back.
1
SPEAKER_02
Okay, let s go back.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, you re not old.
1
SPEAKER_02
There is something insane about this town that s making you say these things and making you feel really insecure.
1
SPEAKER_02
It is insane.
1
SPEAKER_02
You wish that you were old and wise.
1
SPEAKER_02
Well, listen to me.
1
SPEAKER_02
Wow, I love this.
1
SPEAKER_02
There is still so much left for you to learn.
1
SPEAKER_00
This is a great tongue lashing and I ve earned it.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I just, I accept it.
1
SPEAKER_00
But it also makes me think of my new favorite quote I just heard.
1
SPEAKER_00
I know this is probably the second time I ve said it on here, but my therapist just told me this quote he saw hanging in someone s office and it was from a female prime minister of Israel.
1
SPEAKER_00
I can t remember which one.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it said, don t be humble.
1
SPEAKER_00
You re not that great.
1
SPEAKER_00
I feel like what you just said is a little bit more like, you re not that fucking wise, so don t feel so old.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, that s a nice saying.
1
SPEAKER_02
I like that.
1
SPEAKER_02
Don t be so humble, you re not that great.
1
SPEAKER_00
If I m being fully honest, there s a weird evolution.
1
SPEAKER_00
You move through phases and you go like, all right, I couldn t date a 27 year old.
1
SPEAKER_00
That time has passed.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it s interesting to be incompatible in that way.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I don t even know why that crosses my mind, but it does.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like all growing up, I was either meeting women my age or they were older and I could date someone older.
1
SPEAKER_00
And now I ve reached an age where, well, it d be insane if you were dating this person.
1
SPEAKER_00
I just notice it.
1
SPEAKER_00
The way I notice I m older than all the coaches in the NFL now.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s like, oh yeah, here s another passage of time.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think that s more what I was referencing.
1
SPEAKER_01
It changes who your options are.
1
SPEAKER_01
I mean, you have zero options, just reminding you.
1
SPEAKER_01
But yeah, the older you get, it s like, oh, that person s really cute.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh, they re 24.
1
SPEAKER_02
You get used to being like the youngest and you get used to, I m so naive, I don t know anything.
1
SPEAKER_02
And then you re all of a sudden like, well, I better grow up now.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because everyone else is around me.
1
SPEAKER_00
Do you happen to, I feel like you would for some reason.
1
SPEAKER_00
Have you seen the show Colin from Accounting?
1
SPEAKER_02
No, it s a great Aussie show.
1
SPEAKER_00
Okay, it s about a couple.
1
SPEAKER_00
There s a big old age gap.
1
SPEAKER_01
Is this new?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes Well, I think they re doing season two right now.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh my I was just recommended to us and we re like blowing through it It s unbelievably charming and cute, but they talk non-stop about how disgusting
2
SPEAKER_00
scene is that they re together.
2
SPEAKER_00
Which I think is funny.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s what you got to do when that happens.
2
SPEAKER_01
I feel like I ve been recommended this before.
2
SPEAKER_01
How small, I mean, how old are they?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, she s two foot three and he s seven foot one.
2
SPEAKER_00
On the show, I think she s playing 29.
2
SPEAKER_00
They haven t said his age, but he seems to be my age.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, 49.
2
SPEAKER_00
But they re a real life couple.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, they re real life?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes, and I started following them on Instagram.
2
SPEAKER_00
I love them so much.
2
SPEAKER_01
That sounds brilliant.
2
SPEAKER_01
They re working through something on that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes, yes.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, they need to be together.
2
SPEAKER_00
Their chemistry and their snap, snap, snap is so intoxicating.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, let s go back to England, 1997.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is when Little Maisie arrives.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_01
Hello.
2
SPEAKER_00
And mom and dad are divorced at four months old?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so you re in my boat.
2
SPEAKER_00
You don t have any memories of your parents?
2
SPEAKER_01
No, I didn t know they even met.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, right.
2
SPEAKER_00
And you re not- In my mind.
2
SPEAKER_00
Pining for them to get reunited or anything?
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, no, no, no, no, no.
2
SPEAKER_00
Did you have a relationship with your dad?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes, until the age of eight.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
We ll end that there.
2
SPEAKER_00
The face said everything.
2
SPEAKER_00
The stepdad, a nice stepdad?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, really lovely.
2
SPEAKER_00
He hit the jackpot.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and you?
2
SPEAKER_01
No.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, the last one was really nice.
2
SPEAKER_00
There were a couple of doozies in between though.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, my mom had like a couple of boyfriends who were always great fun and I really loved them.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then she met my stepdad.
2
SPEAKER_01
He was really lovely.
2
SPEAKER_00
This shouldn t be a compliment for a man, but it is.
2
SPEAKER_00
Any dude who walks in, there s four kids on the scene already, and he embraces that.
2
SPEAKER_00
I just like that person.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that s true.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s a lot.
2
SPEAKER_01
We were... Well, we were.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
He also had two kids of his own, and so we blended our families.
2
SPEAKER_01
There were six of you?
2
SPEAKER_01
There were six of us.
2
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, my Lord.
2
SPEAKER_01
In a three-bedroom house.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, my Lord.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it was kind of crazy.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re the youngest of the four that you re biologically related to.
2
SPEAKER_00
Where were you with the other two?
2
SPEAKER_01
They were younger than me.
2
SPEAKER_01
My sister Amy, she was like, she still is eight months younger than me.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then my brother James was two, three years younger than me.
2
SPEAKER_00
And what age were you when the family blended?
2
SPEAKER_01
Eight or nine.
2
SPEAKER_00
So the little girl who s eight months younger than you.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Did you know her at school already?
2
SPEAKER_01
No, so they went to school with their mom.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, okay.
2
SPEAKER_01
It would come at the weekends and stuff.
2
SPEAKER_01
It wouldn t fully, fully blend.
2
SPEAKER_01
Are they still together?
2
SPEAKER_01
No.
2
SPEAKER_01
No.
2
SPEAKER_01
I know.
2
SPEAKER_01
These things happen.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s a bummer.
2
SPEAKER_00
I know.
2
SPEAKER_01
Life is long.
2
SPEAKER_01
It is.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, my mom, this is what I mean about age.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know, 60s has started again, again.
2
SPEAKER_00
Is she on apps?
2
SPEAKER_00
Because my mom is banging apps.
2
SPEAKER_01
But her sister met her now partner on Plenty More Fish or something.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, wow.
2
SPEAKER_01
And they are perfect for each other.
2
SPEAKER_01
I feel like it s coming at some point.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_00
Have you talked to her about apps?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, a little bit.
2
SPEAKER_01
She s like, nope.
2
SPEAKER_00
Not doing it.
2
SPEAKER_01
She s got her dog.
2
SPEAKER_01
She also looks after my dog and she goes cold water swimming and she s like, that s it.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s what I do.
2
SPEAKER_00
I love cold water swimming.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
So my mom was on the apps at 72.
2
SPEAKER_00
She was fucking busy.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s fine.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
And she has a boyfriend now, like a new boyfriend.
2
SPEAKER_01
There we go.
2
SPEAKER_00
They ve been on a vacation together.
2
SPEAKER_00
They ve been together a year now.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s nice.
2
SPEAKER_00
It is.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
But back to England.
2
SPEAKER_00
How far out of London were you?
2
SPEAKER_00
You re in a town of 1,500 people, like tiny, yeah?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
So the closest major city was a city called Bristol.
2
SPEAKER_01
Do you ever watch Skins?
2
SPEAKER_01
I never watch Skins.
2
SPEAKER_01
Do you ever listen to Porter s Head?
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, yeah, sure, sure, sure.
2
SPEAKER_00
Massive Attack?
2
SPEAKER_00
Is that an EDM?
2
SPEAKER_00
Is that an EDM?
2
SPEAKER_01
Sort of, yeah, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
There, where the railways were founded.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, really?
2
SPEAKER_01
Isambard Kingdom, Brunel, icon, legend, we love him.
2
SPEAKER_00
Bucolic, is it like pastoral or is it seaside?
2
SPEAKER_01
seaside import-export type situation.
2
SPEAKER_01
I lived 20 minutes outside of that.
2
SPEAKER_01
My dad lived in the city, my mom lived outside of the city, and I d do every other weekend with my dad up until the age of eight.
2
SPEAKER_01
But I wasn t, you know, conscious even at that point.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
Hard to remember.
2
SPEAKER_00
You weren t even alive yet.
2
SPEAKER_00
Mom was an administrator at a college in Bristol, I presume?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, my mom s done all kinds of jobs, but that was the most prominent job that she had while I was growing up.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so you originally wanted to be a dancer.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_00
Based on who?
2
SPEAKER_00
Me.
2
SPEAKER_00
Was there someone you were looking up to or anything?
2
SPEAKER_01
No, I never really had any idols.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think people would talk about idols and then I would manufacture them into my life, but I hadn t been shown a lot of things that I was like, that s what it is.
2
SPEAKER_01
It really came from within.
2
SPEAKER_01
I loved to dance and that was just what I always wanted.
2
SPEAKER_01
Since I can remember, I ve never wanted to do anything else.
2
SPEAKER_00
Really quick, did you not idolize your older sister?
2
SPEAKER_00
And I put you in a bad position.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes, absolutely.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because I didn t want to do anything my brother did.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s true.
2
SPEAKER_01
My sister had all the coolest clothes, had all the coolest friends, would show me all the coolest films as well, played me Titanic.
2
SPEAKER_01
She s like, this came out the year you born and just... This is the greatest love story ever told.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes, exactly.
2
SPEAKER_01
Get ready for this.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is Leonardo DiCaprio.
2
SPEAKER_00
He s the hottest guy to ever live.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, oh, you re right.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh my God.
2
SPEAKER_00
But she didn t dance.
2
SPEAKER_01
No, she didn t dance.
2
SPEAKER_01
She sang.
2
SPEAKER_01
We were all kind of...
2
SPEAKER_00
I would say.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
So you re dancing and then maybe this is apocryphal, but Game of Thrones is your second audition of your life?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s absurd.
2
SPEAKER_00
But tell me about the first and how did we even get to where we re going to audition?
2
SPEAKER_01
I went to this local dance school, which was spoken about in the area as a really good one.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it was because the teachers were so amazing.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s called Susan Hill School of Dancing.
2
SPEAKER_01
Shout out.
2
SPEAKER_01
And her son, George, had been a professional dancer for years.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so they really understood what it took to go to the next level.
2
SPEAKER_01
All the way.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_01
And they were really, really supportive of me.
2
SPEAKER_01
And they said, you should go to stage school and do this.
2
SPEAKER_01
But my mom had no idea how.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so they helped us with everything.
2
SPEAKER_01
Gave me the audition piece, helped me burn music onto a CD.
2
SPEAKER_00
Worked with you on the sides?
2
SPEAKER_01
Exactly, did the whole thing.
2
SPEAKER_00
Have you bought them a nice Christmas present as a thank you at this point?
2
SPEAKER_01
I actually have never got them a nice Christmas present as a thank you.
2
SPEAKER_01
I am the worst person ever.
2
SPEAKER_01
You might need to get them a hot tub.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
We re talking about your brother.
2
SPEAKER_01
We re still actually really in touch.
2
SPEAKER_01
George has helped me with audition pieces in the past for things that I ve done in movies and stuff.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m still close with them.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, that s nice.
2
SPEAKER_01
Which is nice.
2
SPEAKER_00
What was the first audition for?
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh no, back up.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you could objectively say what your skill level as a dancer was out of 10,
2
SPEAKER_01
Listen, passion, enthusiasm.
2
SPEAKER_01
Counts for a lot in this world.
2
SPEAKER_01
And magnetism was a 10, for sure.
2
SPEAKER_01
But I had not been training as long as a lot of these kids had.
2
SPEAKER_00
Could you do the, what do they call it, toe point?
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
You could.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
I was good, like, you know.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, I don t know much.
2
SPEAKER_01
I did grade six ballet, which is the highest.
2
SPEAKER_01
I was in intermediate ballet.
2
SPEAKER_01
If you re being a professional dancer, you ve done that by the time you re like 16.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I feel like I was just kind of getting to that point then.
2
SPEAKER_00
Did you see Billy Elliot when you were young?
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, actually, tell a lie.
2
SPEAKER_01
If I had an idol, it was Billy Elliot.
2
SPEAKER_00
It really was.
2
SPEAKER_01
Loved that film.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes, it s beautiful.
2
SPEAKER_01
One of my favorites.
2
SPEAKER_00
You doing the ballet?
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, did we get a kick out of the way they were saying ballet here?
2
SPEAKER_00
The ballet.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so the first audition, sorry.
2
SPEAKER_01
I don t go to stage school.
2
SPEAKER_01
I don t go.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, I got in, but it s too expensive.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_01
But I start doing all these other things and I get an agent who sees me do acting and says, you should do that instead.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so starts getting me auditions for things.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I met Pip Hall, who is an incredible kids casting director in London.
2
SPEAKER_01
And she was casting for Nanny McPhee 2, The Big Bang.
2
SPEAKER_00
Nanny McPhee 2, The Big Bang.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Did you ever watch Nanny McPhee?
2
SPEAKER_01
I didn t.
2
SPEAKER_01
Emma Thompson?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it was, I remember it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Get that on for the kids.
2
SPEAKER_01
I loved it.
2
SPEAKER_00
You guys are much closer in age.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m still a lot older.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re not terribly close.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay, just stop.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so I try and do Nanny McPhee 2 The Big Bang.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that was the first audition.
2
SPEAKER_00
And did you get nervous or was that easy for you?
2
SPEAKER_01
I used to get really nervous for auditions, more so than dancing.
2
SPEAKER_01
But it was kind of my process at the time.
2
SPEAKER_01
We would get to Reading on the train and then it s 20 minutes until we get to Paddington.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I would start freaking out and crying.
2
SPEAKER_01
Not like, loudly.
2
SPEAKER_01
I would just go really quiet and my mom would be like, are you feeling okay?
2
SPEAKER_01
And I m like, no, this is so scary.
2
SPEAKER_01
I don t want to do this.
2
SPEAKER_01
She s like, sure, maybe we ll go through the lines.
2
SPEAKER_01
Then we go through the lines.
2
SPEAKER_01
Then I m like, okay, I just need to be like silent now until we get to the audition.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then we d get there.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I was such a
2
SPEAKER_01
happy, bright kid.
2
SPEAKER_00
Your eyes, I m sitting here talking to you and they ve already had three different levels of moisture in them in the last seven seconds.
2
SPEAKER_00
Very dynamic.
2
SPEAKER_00
You have the option of like eight centimeters diameter or 26 centimeters.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, they do that.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that s genetic.
2
SPEAKER_00
Those are your eyeballs.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and I think my mom at some point was like, is this really what she should be doing?
2
SPEAKER_01
Because with the dancing, it was never like that.
2
SPEAKER_01
But it was just part of it, I think.
2
SPEAKER_01
I was just being judged in a way that made me feel a little more insecure than the dancing.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think with the dancing, I was like, I don t actually care if you don t like it because it feels good.
2
SPEAKER_00
Whereas with the acting it was like still very new where I was like this sometimes feels really not great I also think it s easier to make your body move through muscle memory in a way You ve practiced than it is to go control your voice and your delivery, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
And the point is as they go, can you do it differently now and you go?
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, maybe but right.
2
SPEAKER_00
I ve been practicing it this way for the last two days Yeah, and you did a ballet thing and they re like, all right good now do that as a jazz ensemble
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes, nerve-wracking.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now, when you got Arya, the script, and I ll be honest, we watched the pilot of the show and I was like, I don t know, man.
2
SPEAKER_00
The brother and sister are fucking, they killed a kid.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t know.
2
SPEAKER_00
We put it down for, I don t know, probably a year and a half.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then finally enough people were talking about it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Then we re like, all right, let s go back.
2
SPEAKER_00
Then I got fully into it, but it s got a bit of shock value.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I m just curious, was mom at all concerned about the subject matter?
2
SPEAKER_01
not for reasons to not let me do it.
2
SPEAKER_01
We re very fortunate, lucky people, but not really from a place where opportunities come around that often.
2
SPEAKER_01
And we had really been pushing for this.
2
SPEAKER_01
I just knew it
3
SPEAKER_02
it was what I wanted to do and I was so lucky that my mom was down for me to do it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Did you feel a little bit safety netted by it being HBO?
3
SPEAKER_00
Because again, you could read the same- I had no idea who HBO were.
3
SPEAKER_00
You didn t.
3
SPEAKER_02
I had a friend whose part of her family lived in the U.S.
3
SPEAKER_02
and she was like, HBO is apparently good.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I was like, okay, well, that s good.
3
SPEAKER_00
Let me dig into this a little bit.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, we re not cinema fans.
3
SPEAKER_02
We re not television fans.
3
SPEAKER_02
We re not aware of this world at all.
3
SPEAKER_02
There s things that have cut through.
3
SPEAKER_02
This is not the world that we are familiar with.
3
SPEAKER_02
So it turned out to be the jackpot.
3
SPEAKER_02
But also, had it been anything, had it been a tiny role on Doctors on BBC, we would have been like screaming the house down.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that makes sense.
3
SPEAKER_02
But it turned out to be this, which is like unbelievable.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s what s kind of... Kind of ridiculous and insane.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, there s only like a handful of these.
3
SPEAKER_00
I always give the example, and I don t know why, and again, you didn t follow TV, so it doesn t mean nothing to you, but Ashton Kutcher s very first audition was that 70s show, and it ran for seven years and was syndicated.
3
SPEAKER_00
You might act your whole life and never get on a show that ended up getting syndicated.
3
SPEAKER_00
And sometimes that just happens.
3
SPEAKER_02
Wait, so how old were you exactly?
3
SPEAKER_02
I forget.
3
SPEAKER_02
I was 12 when I got the part, like 11 when I was auditioning.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, so maybe it was at this time of year, as we approach your birthday.
3
SPEAKER_02
It was.
3
SPEAKER_02
I have it tattooed on my arm.
3
SPEAKER_02
It was the 7th of August 2009, when I got the part.
3
SPEAKER_02
Oh, I love that you have that tattooed.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s lovely.
3
SPEAKER_02
And it s 789, which is cute.
3
SPEAKER_02
I mean, here you guys would do 879, but you re wrong.
3
SPEAKER_00
You re right.
3
SPEAKER_00
I was just filling out a visa application today.
3
SPEAKER_02
Oh, did you do it wrong?
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, I was on the verge of doing it wrong, but luckily there was a drop down menu.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then I had to acknowledge we do do it wrong because it makes no sense.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s not in ascending order here.
3
SPEAKER_00
Here, I would say I was born one to seventy five January 2nd.
3
SPEAKER_00
But if you think about it, I went month, day, year.
3
SPEAKER_00
It should go day, then months bigger, then years biggest.
3
SPEAKER_00
There is a logic to it, and I don t know how we ended up with this.
3
SPEAKER_01
Except it s sort of like the big bucket, and then the smaller bucket, and then a big, big bucket.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you re right.
3
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t ascend, and it should.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, but it s also because you guys say January 4th, January 5th, whereas we would say the 4th of January, so it makes sense already because you re saying 4th of January when you re doing it shorthand, you know, you re going 4, 1.
3
SPEAKER_00
What you ve robbed yourself of is May the 4th be with you.
3
SPEAKER_02
Exactly.
3
SPEAKER_02
I actually had an ex-boyfriend who was born on May the 4th.
3
SPEAKER_00
And was he American or English?
3
SPEAKER_02
He was English, but it didn t make sense for us to be like, 4th of May be with you.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right, you were like totally robbed of that.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s one thing to think about.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, that s true.
3
SPEAKER_00
I wonder what things were missing.
3
SPEAKER_00
I bet a lot.
3
SPEAKER_00
By doing it in the wrong order.
3
SPEAKER_02
Not a lot.
3
SPEAKER_00
Where do you shoot the pilot?
3
SPEAKER_00
What country do you go to?
3
SPEAKER_02
Northern Ireland.
3
SPEAKER_00
Which was how far away from where you lived?
3
SPEAKER_02
It took like 45 minutes on an airplane.
3
SPEAKER_00
So that s not bad at all.
3
SPEAKER_02
No, it was great.
3
SPEAKER_02
At the time, it was the furthest away from my house that I ve been.
3
SPEAKER_02
Actually, I tell a lie.
3
SPEAKER_02
I went to Disneyland Paris.
3
SPEAKER_02
Ooh.
3
SPEAKER_00
You did.
3
SPEAKER_00
What do you rate it?
3
SPEAKER_00
I ve only been to Disney World and
3
SPEAKER_02
I was in a push chair, but there s a really funny picture of me.
3
SPEAKER_02
Oh, you were in a what?
3
SPEAKER_02
A pram, stroller.
3
SPEAKER_02
Oh, a stroller.
3
SPEAKER_02
Oh, oh, oh.
3
SPEAKER_01
I thought you were in a wheelchair.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh, no.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s what I wanted to clarify.
3
SPEAKER_01
What did you enter?
3
SPEAKER_02
I was in a stroller, but there s this really funny picture of me next to Tigger, and I look really, really, really happy.
3
SPEAKER_02
Like, the biggest smile.
3
SPEAKER_01
And were you like one?
3
SPEAKER_01
I guess.
3
SPEAKER_01
Parents will really take their kids to Disney.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, my mom and dad took me to Disney in those strollers.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you re a blob.
3
SPEAKER_01
For years.
3
SPEAKER_01
What for?
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s beautiful because right out of the gate you re trying to give them everything you can.
3
SPEAKER_01
I know, it s sweet.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s really sweet.
3
SPEAKER_00
Totally wasted on them.
3
SPEAKER_00
Look, our kids went all around the world and they don t have a single memory of any of it, you know?
3
SPEAKER_00
They were in Cuba when they were fucking three and one.
3
SPEAKER_00
I know.
3
SPEAKER_02
That is so funny.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, what are you going to do?
3
SPEAKER_00
Did you feel at all lonely during any of that?
3
SPEAKER_00
Because everyone s a bit older than you.
3
SPEAKER_02
Not lonely.
3
SPEAKER_02
I was having one-on-one time with my mom, hanging out with Sophie, who has become my
3
SPEAKER_00
How much older is she than you?
3
SPEAKER_02
A year.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, okay.
3
SPEAKER_02
We got to stay in a hotel with a pool and a sauna and a spa.
3
SPEAKER_02
And we would go shopping with the per diem.
3
SPEAKER_02
I was like, mom, how much of that per diem do we have left?
3
SPEAKER_02
Because if we shop at Pizza Express again, then we can go to Topshop and get more clothes.
3
SPEAKER_00
Mal, look, the show had so many incredible characters, but for sure, yours is one of the ones like you really got, I don t want to say lucky.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s you.
3
SPEAKER_00
It was a very cool character.
3
SPEAKER_01
She s cool.
3
SPEAKER_00
She s got her needle.
3
SPEAKER_01
I love her needle.
3
SPEAKER_00
I love her needle.
3
SPEAKER_00
And she s a tomboy.
3
SPEAKER_00
You re not supposed to say that, but in all my research, they kept saying it.
3
SPEAKER_00
So now I m going to say, but yeah, it s like going against this frilly kind of other side of it.
3
SPEAKER_00
You re counter-programming within it.
3
SPEAKER_00
The whole thing was kind of punk rock.
3
SPEAKER_02
She was.
3
SPEAKER_02
I only am now really realizing that, because I think people would say it a lot, but I was so disconnected from it.
3
SPEAKER_02
When House of the Dragon came out two years ago, I re-watched Game of Thrones, because I haven t watched it since it was televised.
3
SPEAKER_02
And there s some episodes that I haven t even seen.
3
SPEAKER_02
The last couple of series I didn t watch because it was just so bizarre.
3
SPEAKER_02
So I was like, okay, I m gonna watch.
3
SPEAKER_02
What is this show?
3
SPEAKER_02
What is the thing everyone s all excited about?
3
SPEAKER_02
And then I was like, oh, I really understand because I ve watched a lot of television since.
3
SPEAKER_02
I really see how that s a special character.
3
SPEAKER_02
I grew up watching Alien and Terminator 2.
3
SPEAKER_02
I loved Sarah Connor.
3
SPEAKER_02
I said to my friend while I was filming Game of Thrones, I was like, I want to do a character like that.
3
SPEAKER_02
And my friend was like, that s sort of like what you re doing.
3
SPEAKER_00
You are.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, congratulations, because you ve been doing it for years.
3
SPEAKER_02
Right.
3
SPEAKER_02
And so I think now I can look at it and go, yeah, just feel a sense of pride.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, you re playing a badass.
3
SPEAKER_00
And a little badass.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s also very Natalie Portman professional.
3
SPEAKER_00
Did you ever see that?
3
SPEAKER_02
I did.
3
SPEAKER_00
Breakout role.
3
SPEAKER_02
I actually met her at a film festival once.
3
SPEAKER_02
It was a cool moment.
3
SPEAKER_02
I could gauge a little bit that she knew who I was.
3
SPEAKER_02
So I was like, that s cool.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I was just so excited because of that kind of parallel.
3
SPEAKER_02
I love her.
3
SPEAKER_02
I love her career.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now, the only episode I want to ask you about is, it s kind of a cool distinction to have that you were in the longest fight scene that s ever existed in a movie or on television.
3
SPEAKER_02
Wait, which one?
3
SPEAKER_00
From the Long Night episode.
3
SPEAKER_02
Oh, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s the longest battle scene in film and television history.
3
SPEAKER_00
My question is, A, what was that like?
3
SPEAKER_00
How many days did you shoot that?
3
SPEAKER_00
Were you completely lost in all the different bits of action?
3
SPEAKER_00
And what s it like to juggle something like that?
3
SPEAKER_02
So the prep on that was unbelievable.
3
SPEAKER_02
We had started filming in autumn the year before.
3
SPEAKER_02
We got to that episode in, I think it was like the February of the year after.
3
SPEAKER_02
And we shot for three months at night time.
3
SPEAKER_02
Oh my god.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I mean I m saying we.
3
SPEAKER_02
I was there for a handful of nights compared to the crew that literally went nocturnal for three months and didn t see any of their family or children.
3
SPEAKER_02
Wow.
3
SPEAKER_02
It was a lot.
3
SPEAKER_02
Working on that show required so much more than just the average job for them.
3
SPEAKER_02
So we did a lot of prep.
3
SPEAKER_02
There was this whole rendered version of the episode.
3
SPEAKER_02
And so we all had the script and we all had this big meeting at the Winterfell Castle a couple of weekends in a row, actually.
3
SPEAKER_02
And they d bring all the different actors in at different points.
3
SPEAKER_02
And we just talked through the whole thing.
3
SPEAKER_02
And then we had a big map of the castle and where everyone is.
3
SPEAKER_02
It was kind of like a real battle.
3
SPEAKER_02
You know, we had like the little people.
3
SPEAKER_02
And Miguel, our incredible director, had it all in his mind.
3
SPEAKER_02
And so there would be a couple of weekends of these rehearsals.
3
SPEAKER_02
By the way, it s actually snowing at the time, and so it s freezing out there.
3
SPEAKER_02
We also have all the fake snow and the fake fire.
3
SPEAKER_02
And then they just broke it down into the tiny little pieces.
3
SPEAKER_02
I had a couple of moments where I was working with Sophie, when we re standing and looking at the start of the battle, and we re just looking out into
3
SPEAKER_02
Darkness nothing.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I m just messing around And then there s a big fight thing that I do through one of the battlements.
3
SPEAKER_02
That was another bit I twist my ankle quite badly that day Because I had to run away and they had all these fake bodies on the ground and it s super dark So I like slipped on one of them How about this?
3
SPEAKER_00
How would you compare your real-life?
3
SPEAKER_00
athleticism to arias
3
SPEAKER_02
Oh, I was so much fitter when I was playing Aria.
3
SPEAKER_02
I enjoy exercise, for sure, but it s got to be something that I love to do.
3
SPEAKER_00
Amusing a little bit.
3
SPEAKER_00
Dancing.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, right.
3
SPEAKER_02
I ve got to be doing something that s fun.
3
SPEAKER_02
And when I was doing that, I was loving learning the sword fighting, but I was working with a team every single day.
3
SPEAKER_02
So it s different to getting up and being like, now we re going to jog.
3
SPEAKER_00
And you are using your left hand even though you re right-handed, which is adorable.
3
SPEAKER_02
I was.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I know.
3
SPEAKER_00
I was right-handed in a movie.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, I didn t even say.
3
SPEAKER_02
You re left-handed in real life?
3
SPEAKER_00
I m left-handed in real life.
3
SPEAKER_02
Love that.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, thank you so much.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m proud of it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s one of the coolest things.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like being an elf, kind of.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s funny that you re proud of it.
3
SPEAKER_01
I am, I am.
3
SPEAKER_00
No, it s great, it s great.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like my dyslexia, my left hand.
3
SPEAKER_01
I know, but, okay, I know, but.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s something I overcame.
3
SPEAKER_00
The world s designed for right handies.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, okay.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Go ahead, go ahead.
3
SPEAKER_01
No, no, no.
3
SPEAKER_01
I get it, it s cool because it s rare.
3
SPEAKER_01
Of all people, you love rare.
3
SPEAKER_01
I love it.
3
SPEAKER_01
I love that you re left-handed.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think it s a little funny that you personally are proud of it.
3
SPEAKER_00
I am, I am.
3
SPEAKER_01
That it s not something that you did.
3
SPEAKER_01
A win s a win.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that s true.
3
SPEAKER_01
I guess let s just take what we can.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
3
SPEAKER_00
I certainly didn t earn it.
3
SPEAKER_00
I just was born this way, but I ll take it, you know?
3
SPEAKER_00
I get it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so back to the left.
3
SPEAKER_00
I did this movie called Let s Go to Prison, and I was a career prisoner.
3
SPEAKER_00
I was constantly in and out of jail.
3
SPEAKER_00
And of course, because I am so proud of being left-handed, I m like, that s a right-handed guy.
3
SPEAKER_00
I just arbitrarily decided, well, there s no way that guy would be left.
4
SPEAKER_02
He s not artistic.
4
SPEAKER_02
He s like a crook.
4
SPEAKER_02
I did not practice really at all.
4
SPEAKER_02
I just was, I m going to be right-handed.
4
SPEAKER_02
I m in a scene with Will Arnett and Michael Shannon, who s scaring the shit out of us.
4
SPEAKER_02
And I go to casually take a bite of food with my right hand without ever practicing.
4
SPEAKER_02
I just immediately stabbed myself in the eye with a fork.
4
SPEAKER_02
I went to hit my mouth and I just went like, oh!
4
SPEAKER_02
Fuck, I like ruined a take.
4
SPEAKER_00
Was that kind of in character?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like was the character stupid?
4
SPEAKER_02
No, I was pretty cool.
4
SPEAKER_02
I was a tough guy.
4
SPEAKER_02
You should see that movie.
4
SPEAKER_00
I haven t seen it.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m kind of hurt.
4
SPEAKER_00
I ve seen a lot of your movies.
4
SPEAKER_02
Or maybe I should be flattered because you re not going to see that guy s movies.
4
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
4
SPEAKER_02
I don t know which way to go.
4
SPEAKER_02
Did you ever do anything stupid to yourself because you weren t good with your left hand?
4
SPEAKER_01
Well, kind of.
4
SPEAKER_01
It was sort of a combination of people s fault.
4
SPEAKER_01
I don t want to say it was fully my fault, but there s a moment where I m jabbing the hound in his
4
SPEAKER_01
chest plate with my sword and obviously it s like not going through because he s got armor on and they wanted to get a nice close-up shot of the sword warping but we need to use the real sword that doesn t warp as easily because it s the close shot and it s like the money shot yeah yeah and i jabbed it in and then a combination of people it was a lot of cooks you know
4
SPEAKER_01
And I m like, I m warping it.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m trying to tell someone how I want to warp it while another person is saying, do you think that you could stab him?
4
SPEAKER_01
And they move the tip of the sword and where I m trying to warp it, I flick the sword and crack myself on the eyebrow.
4
SPEAKER_01
And for the rest of the day, they have to like shoot me from the other side because I ve got this huge egg.
4
SPEAKER_01
It was so embarrassing.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like, you know, when you can hear everyone go like.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I was just like, don t cry, don t cry.
4
SPEAKER_02
And if you were using your right hand, maybe wouldn t happen.
4
SPEAKER_01
I don t know.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think it probably still would have.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think that was actually just me.
4
SPEAKER_02
That s a great behind the scenes moment.
4
SPEAKER_02
Like you have these scenes, you see them on shows and you don t realize to your point, there s 65 fucking people involved in this one little thing.
4
SPEAKER_02
Someone s adjusting the collar on your shirt while this is going on.
4
SPEAKER_02
Not only are too many people talking, but all of a sudden you re like, wait, who s pulling on me?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and they re like, oh, your mic pack s on the floor.
4
SPEAKER_01
And you re like, okay, fine.
4
SPEAKER_01
Go, go, go, go.
4
SPEAKER_02
Someone s like dabbing some anti-sheen cloth on your face.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
The wet sponge.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, my God, on that show.
4
SPEAKER_01
So we d have all these net rags.
4
SPEAKER_02
Because they were always sweating.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, we had to be dirty.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
And, oh, man.
4
SPEAKER_02
Glycerin, right?
4
SPEAKER_02
Is that what they re using?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and just fake mud.
4
SPEAKER_01
And Aria, she was so dirty.
4
SPEAKER_02
You were one of the dirtiers.
4
SPEAKER_01
For the longest time, too.
4
SPEAKER_01
They got the Emmy, so well done.
4
SPEAKER_01
But they wanted every bit of skin that was ever shown.
4
SPEAKER_01
So if I wasn t wearing socks, then they would dirty up to here on my ankles, all the way up to my elbows, around my neck and my chest, and then they d put on this huge collar thing.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it was great, but oh my God.
4
SPEAKER_02
I remember that so much, because you re negotiating with them.
4
SPEAKER_02
You re like, just so you know, I don t know if you read the whole scene, but I never pull my pants up to my knee, nor do I move in a way that that could ever happen.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I m like, you re never gonna see it.
4
SPEAKER_01
Please, please.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yes, yes.
4
SPEAKER_02
And then they have this stupid bag.
4
SPEAKER_02
They just keep blotting your clothes with the bag of dirt.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and it s like, did you like your lunch?
4
SPEAKER_01
Okay, well, let s put some more dirt on you now.
4
SPEAKER_02
Let s pigpen you and surround you in a cloud of dirt.
4
SPEAKER_00
This is why acting is hard.
4
SPEAKER_00
People can act in their bedroom in a vacuum.
4
SPEAKER_00
A lot of people can.
4
SPEAKER_00
Self-tape.
4
SPEAKER_00
Or even just, I think a person at home, when they watch a movie, they think like, I could do that.
4
SPEAKER_00
But the thing is, is doing it and being believable and being in character when all that s happening, when people are all around you and you re taken out of it to then click in so quickly.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s like acting natural while getting attacked by a swarm of bees.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s so much harder than many people think, that piece.
4
SPEAKER_01
By the way, whenever there s like the fake food on set, there are bees too.
4
SPEAKER_02
Right, and you re always like, do I ignore that clearly this flies in shots.
4
SPEAKER_02
Should I acknowledge that as a good actor or do I ignore it as a good actor?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, do I want to interrupt the take even though I know that this is a ruined take?
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, maybe I can salvage it by acknowledging there s a fucking fly.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, there we go.
4
SPEAKER_02
Okay, to shift gears to something more emotional.
4
SPEAKER_02
When I track my life from 12, so 12, just to catch up to speed, is the highlight of my life.
4
SPEAKER_02
Seventh grade, I m actually super cute.
4
SPEAKER_02
Eighth grade, it started to fade.
4
SPEAKER_02
By ninth grade, I m a cyclops.
4
SPEAKER_02
It goes to hell in a handbasket.
4
SPEAKER_02
I could barely get myself to show up at school a lot of mornings.
4
SPEAKER_02
There d be like a huge pimple on my nose.
4
SPEAKER_02
I m like, I cannot see Nicole Gates with this thing on my nose.
4
SPEAKER_02
And the notion that I would have had to have gone through puberty entirely on the most popular show in the world seems very stressful to me.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think that I am very blessed.
4
SPEAKER_01
Not to say that you weren t, but my mom is so not a vain person at all.
4
SPEAKER_02
I m vain.
4
SPEAKER_02
I admit to it.
4
SPEAKER_01
I didn t mean to sound like that, but she s the opposite.
4
SPEAKER_01
We don t talk about that because why would you?
4
SPEAKER_02
It s self-indulgent.
4
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so I think that that really helped me out.
4
SPEAKER_01
Although it didn t stop those feelings, but I really do appreciate that I maybe didn t have the language to be able to describe that discomfort.
4
SPEAKER_01
I just knew it was uncomfortable.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think there was just an acceptance where I was like, well, this is just life.
4
SPEAKER_01
So this is how you re going to feel.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I guess it s not until I ve come out the other side and realized, no, that s what it s like when you re 16 or even up until like 21.
4
SPEAKER_02
Well, that s a good point.
4
SPEAKER_02
Like you might have been crediting it to the experience, but it would just been that experience anyways.
4
SPEAKER_02
Is that what you re saying?
4
SPEAKER_01
That s what I think.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yes, but here s what I think would be tricky is that is the exact period that you also try on some new identities in search of your own.
4
SPEAKER_02
And so the fact that you re locked into this other identity has to be complicated.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s not like you can fuck around with a new hairstyle.
4
SPEAKER_02
There s a lot of stuff you can t really fuck around with to figure out who you are.
4
SPEAKER_01
I know that it was really challenging, but I don t have anything else to compare it to.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think it s so much better to ask someone who knows me.
4
SPEAKER_02
Like what was she dealing with at that time?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, because I just really have a hard time being able to see it.
4
SPEAKER_02
You d have to be able to imagine what quote normal was and then compare it to what you felt.
4
SPEAKER_01
I didn t love that I couldn t control my image.
4
SPEAKER_01
I didn t love that even when I did control my image, everyone had something to say about it.
4
SPEAKER_01
I didn t love that I had to be photographed and on camera even on the days where I didn t really want to be photographed and on camera.
4
SPEAKER_01
But I loved meeting Emma Stone at the Screen Actors Guild Awards.
4
SPEAKER_01
And sitting in first class and trying to sneak a champagne when I was like 16.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
So, pros and cons.
4
SPEAKER_02
You re probably denying a lot of your feelings.
4
SPEAKER_01
Ben, completely.
4
SPEAKER_02
Of course.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
Because of all these things, you d be ungrateful, and this is great, and you d stop being a baby, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
So post-show, come 2019, did you have a phase where basically you lived out what it would have been like to be 16 and in the world?
4
SPEAKER_01
For sure, the lockdown came pretty close after that point.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I had a summer of amazing fun.
4
SPEAKER_01
I went to all the music festivals, not the Coachella s and the Glastonbury s, all of the small ones.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m very good at being off-grid, not with the cameras and such.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I did all that, it was amazing.
4
SPEAKER_01
Then there was a lockdown, and then it was kind of a little existential crisis, like most people went through.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yes, also mid-twenties.
4
SPEAKER_00
Right.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and you were just trapped for your whole life.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then now it s time to be free and it s time to go explore.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then you re stuck in your house.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, but I did kind of love it, though.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was a bit more worried about when it lifted.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was like, oh, God, this is the best day of my life.
4
SPEAKER_02
I m expected to resume living.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, things started to lift and I got another job and I was like, okay, there s a life outside of the show.
4
SPEAKER_02
Was that job Pistol?
4
SPEAKER_02
And I guess that was the one thing I really wanted to ask you about other than Game of Thrones, just because I m kind of obsessed with Danny Boyle.
4
SPEAKER_02
And I grew up loving the Sex Pistols.
4
SPEAKER_01
I love working with Danny.
4
SPEAKER_01
For this, I feel like the theme is chaos and anarchy, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
And so creating that safe
4
SPEAKER_01
place for chaos and anarchy.
4
SPEAKER_01
He would get up on stage at the beginning of the day and speak about the time and the place and get everyone really riled up.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then we d shoot and party and it s like the middle of the lockdown.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so we re in these clubs in London, fake partying with fake cigarettes and fake beers.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it just was so cathartic to like shout and scream.
4
SPEAKER_01
And the boys played live music throughout the whole show.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so we just got to wear these crazy hair and makeup, watch all these gigs.
4
SPEAKER_02
You re like robbed of some things as a young actor and then also you re gifted.
4
SPEAKER_02
So you got to kind of have the 80s punk experience.
4
SPEAKER_01
Right.
4
SPEAKER_02
And then get a paycheck on Friday.
4
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
4
SPEAKER_01
That was a cool job where I was like, I feel like I m sitting into this acting thing.
4
SPEAKER_02
And now here s a question.
4
SPEAKER_02
So I did a lot
4
SPEAKER_02
of exploration of different identities, and I would like try out looks.
4
SPEAKER_02
Some felt right and some didn t.
4
SPEAKER_02
I loved that.
4
SPEAKER_02
So when you were in character of Jordan, because she defined a whole aesthetic.
4
SPEAKER_02
So when you were first in the getup, were you like, fuck yeah, I think this is kind of for me.
4
SPEAKER_02
I kind of could do this in real life.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, for sure.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was wearing all of this latex and these fake leather things and plastic PVC.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I think before that, when it was COVID, I was wearing sweats the whole time.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then I was like, oh, this is so crazy.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then I was like, this feels fucking powerful.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, the thing that appealed to me about it and I ve said it ad nauseum on here is in a weird way It s a complete rejection of the rules everyone else is playing by and there is the perception that you re so confident that you don t need to go after the Conventional validation and even though you re insecure the outfit gives it to you other people buy it and then it reverses
5
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engineers onto you.
5
SPEAKER_00
Completely.
5
SPEAKER_00
And you do feel confident.
5
SPEAKER_00
You re like, yeah, look at me.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m walking around like a fucking freak.
5
SPEAKER_00
No one s brave enough to do this.
5
SPEAKER_02
Walking onto set as Jordan, I was like, this is how it feels to conduct yourself in this way.
5
SPEAKER_02
It just all comes right back at you.
5
SPEAKER_02
And I was like, all right, well, when this lockdown s done.
5
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
5
SPEAKER_00
Now we must talk about the new look.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m hoping you know a lot of the history of this because I recently heard someone stand upset.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think it was Bill Burr s.
5
SPEAKER_01
About Chanel?
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Was it his?
5
SPEAKER_01
Uh-huh.
5
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so you re scared.
5
SPEAKER_01
I am not saying that.
5
SPEAKER_00
Oh, so the show that you re now in that comes out on a very auspicious day for us, Valentine s Day.
5
SPEAKER_01
Our anniversary for this show.
5
SPEAKER_00
Our six year anniversary.
5
SPEAKER_01
Oh my God, amazing.
5
SPEAKER_00
The New Look, which is on Apple Plus.
5
SPEAKER_00
Okay, set in World War II.
5
SPEAKER_00
Walk me through the history of this.
5
SPEAKER_00
Why is this the period by which we would want to look at?
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you guys are going to have to take over.
5
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I m so excited to watch this.
5
SPEAKER_02
Coco Chanel.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s set during World War II, and it s a time in history that we ve seen so many stories about.
5
SPEAKER_02
But it s crazy to think that this is also when the golden era of fashion is happening in Paris.
5
SPEAKER_02
So Chanel at this point is the grand dame of fashion.
5
SPEAKER_02
She s an icon and she s like the ruler of couture.
5
SPEAKER_02
Christian Dior is working for a designer called Lucien Long.
5
SPEAKER_02
Lucien Long will be played by John Malkovich.
5
SPEAKER_02
Ooh, la la.
5
SPEAKER_00
There s a million questions about that, but earmarked.
5
SPEAKER_02
His younger sister, who is who I play, Catherine Dior, is part of the French resistance.
5
SPEAKER_02
So Nazi-occupied Paris, Christian s working for Lucien Hollande, making money, bankrolling his sister so his sister can be part of the resistance, staying in his apartment, be safe, but go and do this very dangerous work.
5
SPEAKER_02
She gets captured and taken to the camps.
5
SPEAKER_00
This is all historically accurate.
5
SPEAKER_00
His sister was in the resistance.
5
SPEAKER_02
All the while he s working with Lucina Long and then at some point while she s away he decides he wants to start his own fashion house.
5
SPEAKER_02
And so this is kind of the story of how people survived during the war, how businesses survived during the war, how
5
SPEAKER_02
When the worst things in our lives happen to us, you can kind of push that into your work and create something which revolutionizes fashion.
5
SPEAKER_02
The New Look is one of the most revolutionary collections that there has ever been.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it was called The New Look?
5
SPEAKER_02
Well, it was coined by a journalist for Harper s Bazaar.
5
SPEAKER_02
She was called Carmel Snow.
5
SPEAKER_02
In our show, she s played by Glenn Close.
5
SPEAKER_00
Oh, legendary.
5
SPEAKER_02
Glenn Close, John Malkovich, sharing the screen for the first time since Dangerous Liaison.
5
SPEAKER_02
Oh my god.
5
SPEAKER_02
I know.
5
SPEAKER_02
Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.
5
SPEAKER_02
Exciting.
5
SPEAKER_02
So, yeah.
5
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That s the backdrop.
5
SPEAKER_02
I m thrilled.
5
SPEAKER_02
So it s a show about fashion.
5
SPEAKER_02
There s glamour, but you re seeing the real human story.
5
SPEAKER_02
Dior sitting around the table with Cristobal Balenciaga and Pierre Cardin.
5
SPEAKER_02
All of these names, they grew up together in Paris.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s when it all started.
5
SPEAKER_00
And they would eat at Café de Flora.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, apparently.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
5
SPEAKER_00
Great.
5
SPEAKER_00
Remember how much I wanted to use this?
5
SPEAKER_02
You are obsessed.
5
SPEAKER_00
I am.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s legendary.
5
SPEAKER_00
I still want to go.
5
SPEAKER_00
We never did go.
5
SPEAKER_00
Oh, we did the second day.
5
SPEAKER_01
You had to, like, pull some strings.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I had to find someone that knew me in France.
5
SPEAKER_00
It wasn t the easiest task.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m so excited for this show.
5
SPEAKER_01
This is so up my alley.
5
SPEAKER_00
I watched the trailer.
5
SPEAKER_00
I was like, Monica is going to spray.
5
SPEAKER_02
Oh, I m so excited.
5
SPEAKER_02
I love fashion.
5
SPEAKER_02
There we go.
5
SPEAKER_02
So how much do you know about this story?
5
SPEAKER_02
Only the thing we re not allowed to talk about.
5
SPEAKER_00
Right.
5
SPEAKER_00
She only knows how to buy it.
5
SPEAKER_02
Oh, well, that s fun.
5
SPEAKER_02
That s great.
5
SPEAKER_00
You re super into fashion.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
5
SPEAKER_00
We re gonna get to that now the reason that I think I find my way into this show is to your point We ve seen so many stories of the Nazis come in France falls in two seconds, and they don t live under Nazi rule Well, we never get into how the sausage is made during that time Like it s very curious to me how businesses still functioned and how they had these Nazis around That is a very curious period if you imagine us being overthrown tomorrow by Russia, but we re still allowed to do this podcast That s what was happening.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like it s weird.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean we wouldn t be able to do this.
5
SPEAKER_00
They d kill us.
5
SPEAKER_00
We re on record not liking Putin
5
SPEAKER_02
Right, well, yeah, they would want to take it over and hear you saying, actually, I take it all back.
5
SPEAKER_02
I love him.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yes, I just learned of some of his childhood traumas and I m very sympathetic to why he needs to reassemble the USSR.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, so it was a massive thing, you know, Chanel closed shop.
5
SPEAKER_02
She said, that s it, we re not doing business.
5
SPEAKER_02
But Lucy and Along stayed open.
5
SPEAKER_02
And this is what this show really gets into, is that it s not black and white.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s very complicated, these stories.
5
SPEAKER_02
And there is right and there s wrong.
5
SPEAKER_02
There s truth and there s fiction, of course.
5
SPEAKER_02
But there s what happened and there s everyone s side of the story.
5
SPEAKER_02
There s nuance.
5
SPEAKER_02
There is.
5
SPEAKER_02
And that s what you can do in ten hours of television.
5
SPEAKER_00
You re right.
5
SPEAKER_00
Even the thing we re not going to talk about.
5
SPEAKER_00
The bottom line is no one in this conversation knows what it s like to be occupied within a week by the Third Reich.
5
SPEAKER_00
So how we all think we would act is just kind of a fantasy.
5
SPEAKER_00
We re projecting the best version of ourselves, not the most scared, the most hungry, the most terrified.
5
SPEAKER_00
No one knows what they would do.
5
SPEAKER_02
It was a terrifying time for a lot of people.
5
SPEAKER_02
And we look back now and go, oh, this is the right and the wrong side.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s so obvious.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s so obvious.
5
SPEAKER_02
I think what the story does really well is dive into how complex that is when you re dealing with people that don t have the same rulebook as us.
5
SPEAKER_00
They have a whole different code of ethics.
5
SPEAKER_02
Exactly.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s kind of impossible for us to just be playing by our rule book.
5
SPEAKER_02
What if I could do it like this?
5
SPEAKER_02
No, someone s got a gun to your head.
5
SPEAKER_02
That s not how we re doing it.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know that thing we re not allowed to talk about?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
Two things.
5
SPEAKER_01
One, they shouldn t sue us because if they do, they re just taking money out of their own pocket.
5
SPEAKER_00
They re going to get your money anyways.
5
SPEAKER_00
Right.
5
SPEAKER_01
So they might as well not.
5
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
5
SPEAKER_01
Just buy another bag and say sorry.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s Pennywise and Pound Fool.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s right.
5
SPEAKER_01
Also, one good PR move.
5
SPEAKER_01
I studied PR.
5
SPEAKER_00
You have a degree.
5
SPEAKER_01
A good PR move for them would be to hire someone not Aryan, me, to maybe do a campaign.
5
SPEAKER_01
There we go.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s what they should do.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s like a good PR move, I m just saying.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s a great counterpunch.
5
SPEAKER_00
Tell me why, because I m a Philistine.
5
SPEAKER_00
What was Christian Dior s proprietary genius?
5
SPEAKER_00
What made him be able to compete with Chanel?
5
SPEAKER_02
I think that he, at the time, was not only an incredible artist, dressmaker, but he also knew business.
5
SPEAKER_02
He was putting influences in his dresses before we were doing that whole thing.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s like dressing people that are very controversial in Paris.
5
SPEAKER_02
This is post-war, not controversial for those reasons, but people who are making headlines, he s taking them into couture.
5
SPEAKER_02
And it was that kind of thing that really disrupted the landscape at the time.
5
SPEAKER_00
Right.
5
SPEAKER_00
From my era, using punk rockers and stuff, Madonna being somebody you would bring into high fashion, all these kind of provocative moves, right?
5
SPEAKER_02
Exactly.
5
SPEAKER_02
It was just beautiful.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and the new look.
5
SPEAKER_02
So during World War I, Chanel is taking away the corsets, giving women trousers.
5
SPEAKER_02
Very progressive in terms of the feminist movement.
5
SPEAKER_02
This is also the controversy of it all.
5
SPEAKER_02
Dior brings back corsets, tiny waist, and lowers the hemlines again back to something a little... Elizabethan.
5
SPEAKER_02
Right.
5
SPEAKER_02
That s also another storyline that s going on in the show.
5
SPEAKER_02
But he s trying to bring back this time before the war, when things were opulent and when women didn t have to work.
5
SPEAKER_00
A fantasy nostalgia.
5
SPEAKER_02
But that silhouette that he coined, you ll see it everywhere.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s the one.
5
SPEAKER_00
This is what I was going to ask.
5
SPEAKER_00
They obviously wouldn t have your character in this show unless she played some kind of significant role in his journey, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
So how did she impact his voyage other than he was housing a criminal?
5
SPEAKER_02
When she returned and survived, I mean how anyone even kind of returns to life after going through something like that is obviously not without a lot of turmoil, but they grew up together in Granvi and their parents had this incredible garden and lots of roses.
5
SPEAKER_02
Dior moved into perfume and he created this perfume that he ended up naming after her called Miss Dior.
5
SPEAKER_02
But Catherine speaks about smelling that perfume for the first time, this is post-war, this is when she s back in Calillon and just trying to sort of scramble her life back together.
5
SPEAKER_02
And she spoke about smelling that perfume and for the first time since that really traumatic part of her life, feeling back in her body again and back to herself.
5
SPEAKER_02
And I think Dior was a gay man, but at a time where it was not okay.
5
SPEAKER_02
Catherine always really accepted him for that, but he didn t have a lot of these female muses.
5
SPEAKER_02
It makes sense that the only woman in his life who he loved
5
SPEAKER_02
and like adored this feminine energy was his sister Catherine.
5
SPEAKER_02
And so she became the original muse.
5
SPEAKER_02
When we think about fashion muses, think about like the models of today, we think about these big billboards.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s kind of nice to learn about this woman who was not a particularly glamorous woman.
5
SPEAKER_02
She was hardworking, tough and a soldier.
5
SPEAKER_02
I just think that that s lost from the consciousness a little bit.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it reminds me of Esther Perel talking about having grown up in, I think, Belgium in a community of Holocaust survivors and how what
5
SPEAKER_00
came to define who thrived and who it killed was who had accepted eroticism back into their life.
5
SPEAKER_00
And not in our colloquial interpretation of eroticism, but just life.
5
SPEAKER_00
And like smelling those flowers or that perfume, it seems like a convenient story device, but literally that s what Esther Pearl said made the difference for people, whether they thrived or not ever again.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s incredible.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s like, could they latch onto the sensual and could they latch onto the life?
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
How much of this did you know prior to doing this and how much have you learned from doing it?
6
SPEAKER_01
of that collection, but I knew nothing about Catherine, I knew nothing about Monsieur, I knew nothing about Chanel.
6
SPEAKER_02
Todd Kessler, the showrunner of it, he comes from Bloodlines, Sopranos, and Damages, so why is this his project?
6
SPEAKER_01
Well, I mean, Todd could probably speak about this better than I can, but when I got on a call with him and what made me so excited about doing this show with him was
6
SPEAKER_01
He just came at it so organically.
6
SPEAKER_01
I think he first had this idea 20 years ago or something.
6
SPEAKER_01
I think he was sitting in a waiting room and there was this book on Dior s life.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I think he draws similarities between Dior s incredible life and career and tragic, very sudden passing.
6
SPEAKER_02
How old was he when he died?
6
SPEAKER_01
I think he was like in his 40s maybe.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_02
Now I m seeming a little old, right?
6
SPEAKER_02
You re going to take back that earlier comment.
6
SPEAKER_01
And then his late friend James Gandolfini and similar conversations that he had had that he was reading in Dior s memoir.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I just think that he had this moment where he was like, I don t know anything about fashion.
6
SPEAKER_01
I don t know anything about this world.
6
SPEAKER_01
But what I do think I understand is this character Dior.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I think that I want to read more.
6
SPEAKER_01
And then obviously this is the precipice of fashion as we know it now.
6
SPEAKER_02
It is wild that these brands that are still at the very apex are going on 80 years old.
6
SPEAKER_02
From that time.
6
SPEAKER_02
I m sure Chanel s 100 years old.
6
SPEAKER_02
I don t know how old Chanel is, but it s kind of wild.
6
SPEAKER_02
So you learned a lot of it from doing the show, but then you also supplement.
6
SPEAKER_02
Did you read anything?
6
SPEAKER_02
Is there anything cool I should read?
6
SPEAKER_02
Did you read the Christian Dior biography or something?
6
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
6
SPEAKER_01
I think it s called Dior on Dior or Dior by Dior.
6
SPEAKER_01
That s a great little memoir that he s done.
6
SPEAKER_02
Oh, he wrote it himself.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_02
Oh, wonderful.
6
SPEAKER_01
There s this other incredible book, which is called Miss Dior, and that s by Justine Picardy.
6
SPEAKER_01
And she does a full detail of Catherine s life.
6
SPEAKER_01
She also did one on Coco Chanel, which I ve not read, but apparently very, very interesting.
6
SPEAKER_01
And then there are also these papers that were sealed shut postwar.
6
SPEAKER_01
There s like a whole legal process that s going on.
6
SPEAKER_01
And there s so much evidence and there s so many statements that a lot of things get redacted and they get sealed off.
6
SPEAKER_01
And there s a couple of papers that I think
6
SPEAKER_02
came to light recently.
6
SPEAKER_01
I think it was like maybe the 80s that have not been told on screen before.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so I think a lot of this Adam has taken and put into our show.
6
SPEAKER_02
Maisie, you cannot tell that you didn t go to school.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yes, I agree.
6
SPEAKER_01
That is so flattering.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
Someone tell the Daily Mail that.
6
SPEAKER_02
You haven t been in school since you were 14.
6
SPEAKER_02
They shamed you?
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
It was so backhanded and bizarre.
6
SPEAKER_02
Such a great publication.
6
SPEAKER_02
I m so shocked.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, exactly.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s the only one I ve ever sued and won.
6
SPEAKER_01
Oh, my God.
6
SPEAKER_01
Amazing.
6
SPEAKER_01
Can you tell me about it?
6
SPEAKER_02
Well, just that you can t print pictures of children in England.
6
SPEAKER_02
Thank God.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s the one thing they have.
6
SPEAKER_02
And then they did that.
6
SPEAKER_02
And then we were like, hey, you re not allowed to do that.
6
SPEAKER_02
We sued them and we won.
6
SPEAKER_02
I mean, you just do it so they ll stop.
6
SPEAKER_02
You don t get anything.
6
SPEAKER_02
You get your legal fees.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s not like I got any money.
6
SPEAKER_01
But they said you didn t go to school.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, they just did a nice profile on me when I was 15 or 16, because I did leave and was homeschooled instead.
6
SPEAKER_01
And it s so not a bizarre thing, but they just treated it.
6
SPEAKER_01
I think this is also a lot of classism, perhaps.
6
SPEAKER_02
I was going to say, this feels a little more English.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s like, had I been in a super wealthy family, a private school and then taken out and homeschooled in a very bohemian way.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
6
SPEAKER_01
It would have been, oh, she s so interesting.
6
SPEAKER_01
It was not that.
6
SPEAKER_02
You re just a junkyard dog.
6
SPEAKER_01
Right.
6
SPEAKER_01
And they were like, how will she ever fucking cope?
6
SPEAKER_02
Oh, my God.
6
SPEAKER_01
Do you have insecurities at all about that?
6
SPEAKER_01
Not at all.
6
SPEAKER_01
No, I really didn t love school.
6
SPEAKER_01
So I think it was good to cut ties.
6
SPEAKER_01
But I think about it a lot.
6
SPEAKER_01
If and when I have children, I m like, what will I do with them?
6
SPEAKER_01
Because a lot of things in my history, although I wouldn t love to do it again, definitely made me a more interesting person.
6
SPEAKER_01
How far do you traumatize your children in order to make them interesting?
6
SPEAKER_02
I m currently evaluating that hourly.
6
SPEAKER_01
There we go.
6
SPEAKER_01
You give your kids everything and you re like, you re never gonna be cool now.
6
SPEAKER_02
Well, yeah, there s that, and then also... You do, you give them everything, and then they don t get something for the first time in their entire life at 19, and they have zero fucking coping mechanism.
6
SPEAKER_01
They don t have any tools.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and then Xanax seems very appealing at that point.
6
SPEAKER_01
Boom, there we go, downward spiral.
6
SPEAKER_01
Stay tuned for more Armchair Experts.
6
SPEAKER_02
I have two completely inane questions.
6
SPEAKER_02
One is, will you explain to me the cultural relevance of Doctor Who?
6
SPEAKER_02
This is like a very big thing in England, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
It is.
6
SPEAKER_02
Is there been multiple versions of it?
6
SPEAKER_02
Explain it to me.
6
SPEAKER_01
So Doctor Who is a character.
6
SPEAKER_02
Is he like James Bond?
6
SPEAKER_01
I guess.
6
SPEAKER_01
He s like James Bond and he s on television and
6
SPEAKER_01
At a certain point, he regenerates and becomes a new body.
6
SPEAKER_01
And he s just this massive franchise, and there s all these crazy aliens that come back time and time again, and it s like James Bond.
6
SPEAKER_01
You know what you re gonna get, but it is huge.
6
SPEAKER_01
I saw Louis Theroux recently, and I was so like, oh my God, it s Louis Theroux.
6
SPEAKER_02
My money don t jiggle-jiggle, it folds.
6
SPEAKER_01
See you wiggle-wiggle.
6
SPEAKER_01
I d had a little alcoholic beverage, so I was like, oh my God, you re doing your own things now.
6
SPEAKER_01
If you want to interview me, you should interview me.
6
SPEAKER_01
And then he s like, oh, yeah, you re on Doctor Who.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I was thinking, well, not the first one that people go to, but OK, that s fine.
6
SPEAKER_01
But it is.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s like an institution there, right?
6
SPEAKER_02
Seems to be one of the only ones that you guys have that hasn t really transferred here.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Right.
6
SPEAKER_02
Because even we went mad for Downton Abbey and we ve gone mad for these things.
6
SPEAKER_02
But I guess there are fans of it, but it s more culty for fans.
6
SPEAKER_01
I would say it s like that in the UK too.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think it s more culty.
6
SPEAKER_01
There was David Tennant s era that I watched growing up because it was like part of the reboot, but it s an acquired taste.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and is there an era that people unanimously agree is the high watermark for Doctor Who?
6
SPEAKER_02
Like if I were going to check it out, which era should I be watching?
6
SPEAKER_00
David Tennant.
6
SPEAKER_02
That s the one.
6
SPEAKER_00
Of course.
6
SPEAKER_00
David T. Broadchurch.
6
SPEAKER_02
Oh, I love Broadchurch.
6
SPEAKER_00
He s the main dude.
6
SPEAKER_00
He s so good.
6
SPEAKER_00
He s so good.
6
SPEAKER_02
You can t date him because you saw his shit.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, he s not for me.
6
SPEAKER_00
I m too big of a fan.
6
SPEAKER_02
Although she said she would date Sean Penn, who s 70, and you ve seen all of his stuff.
6
SPEAKER_02
So some of these people do.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, who are we setting you up with then?
6
SPEAKER_02
Sean Penn.
6
SPEAKER_02
Who else was on your list?
6
SPEAKER_00
Pitt.
6
SPEAKER_02
Brad Pitt.
6
SPEAKER_02
That s a givey.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s like, what haven t I watched yet?
6
SPEAKER_00
Right.
6
SPEAKER_00
You know, none of Brad Pitt s movies.
6
SPEAKER_00
I haven t seen anything of him.
6
SPEAKER_00
I just heard he s good.
6
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
6
SPEAKER_02
Heard he s good looking.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I haven t actually seen him, but people think he s handsome.
6
SPEAKER_00
I ve heard he s handsome.
6
SPEAKER_02
He seems to me a synonym for hottest person ever to live, so I m inclined to believe people.
6
SPEAKER_00
I saw on Instagram a picture today of him and Gwyneth Paltrow when they were dating and they re like walking down the street.
6
SPEAKER_00
Seven.
6
SPEAKER_00
He has a cigarette hanging out of his mouth.
6
SPEAKER_00
I mean.
6
SPEAKER_00
He was cool.
6
SPEAKER_00
He s still cool.
6
SPEAKER_01
He s still so cool.
6
SPEAKER_02
Would you date him?
6
SPEAKER_01
Now?
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I mean, that s like, where is the age breakout for Brad Pitt?
6
SPEAKER_01
I think I would date some people his age, but I wouldn t date him.
6
SPEAKER_02
Not him.
6
SPEAKER_01
What about?
6
SPEAKER_01
Too famous?
6
SPEAKER_01
Too nice?
6
SPEAKER_02
Too hot?
6
SPEAKER_02
Too nice?
6
SPEAKER_02
Too famous?
6
SPEAKER_01
Too rich?
6
SPEAKER_01
What is it?
6
SPEAKER_01
He s not your type?
6
SPEAKER_02
Too good in bed?
6
SPEAKER_01
I don t know what it is.
6
SPEAKER_01
I guess, haven t met him, don t know yet.
6
SPEAKER_02
I think he d make you feel very self-conscious.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think, you know, if we re going down that, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, we re going full circle then.
6
SPEAKER_01
I d be like, actually, you know what?
6
SPEAKER_01
It s too much.
6
SPEAKER_01
You know what?
6
SPEAKER_01
I d be like constantly thinking about everyone else he s dated and be like, oh Jesus.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, but it didn t work out with those people.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it doesn t mean it s gonna work out with me though.
6
SPEAKER_00
But okay, I actually think of all people, I would be the least self-conscious with him because he s so famous.
6
SPEAKER_00
He really has his full pick besides you, who you ve said no to him.
6
SPEAKER_00
Not me.
6
SPEAKER_00
Sorry, Brad.
6
SPEAKER_02
Keep shopping, bro.
6
SPEAKER_00
But everyone would say yes to him.
6
SPEAKER_00
So if he s saying, I really like you, I would really be able to take that to heart.
6
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Because he just has all the options, and he s picking me.
6
SPEAKER_00
OK, then you don t feel as insecure.
6
SPEAKER_02
And you have nothing to offer Brad Pitt.
6
SPEAKER_02
You re not going to elevate his status.
6
SPEAKER_00
He must really like me.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_02
You don t have a cooler plane than him.
6
SPEAKER_02
There s nothing on the table.
6
SPEAKER_02
All you have is you, which he doesn t have.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s so romantic.
6
SPEAKER_02
No, it is.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s the one thing he doesn t have.
6
SPEAKER_01
This is so beautiful.
6
SPEAKER_02
So who s the oldest actor you would date?
6
SPEAKER_02
I just want to get a barometer here.
6
SPEAKER_02
Can you think of a couple that are old as hell?
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, like Matthew McConaughey.
6
SPEAKER_00
Oh, that s a good pick.
6
SPEAKER_02
Have you heard my McConaughey?
6
SPEAKER_02
You d have to shut your eyes.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, okay.
6
SPEAKER_00
Close your eyes.
6
SPEAKER_02
Maisie, Maisie, Maisie.
6
SPEAKER_02
Just checked out the new look.
6
SPEAKER_02
Boy, you re dynamite.
6
SPEAKER_02
You re so good.
6
SPEAKER_02
Of course I liked you in Game of Thrones, but who didn t?
6
SPEAKER_02
This is way more you.
6
SPEAKER_02
You re a revolution.
6
SPEAKER_02
I m old as fuck, but guess what?
6
SPEAKER_02
You ll never know it.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s still going.
6
SPEAKER_02
First of all, let s rate the impression before we get grossed out.
6
SPEAKER_01
It was very, very, very good.
6
SPEAKER_01
It was like he was in the room with me.
6
SPEAKER_01
That s so nice.
6
SPEAKER_02
And guess what?
6
SPEAKER_02
He s back.
6
SPEAKER_01
You have the little whistle too.
6
SPEAKER_02
Well, I got a whole thing because Monica throws up when I do impersonations.
6
SPEAKER_02
So I cover myself.
6
SPEAKER_01
It just won t stop.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s crazy because I love being new.
6
SPEAKER_01
Once you click in, you just don t want to end.
6
SPEAKER_02
I start channeling him.
6
SPEAKER_02
I start thinking like him.
6
SPEAKER_02
I had a post once I was in Sedona sitting on a rock and I started talking like him and then I was feeling what I know he would be feeling and I came up with something that I wouldn t think of this thing.
6
SPEAKER_02
But I was like, yeah, I know.
6
SPEAKER_02
Sorry, Monica.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s this time of the show.
6
SPEAKER_00
You re gonna do it again?
6
SPEAKER_00
What s on the Instagram?
7
SPEAKER_07
Oh, for Maisie, for Maisie, okay, for Maisie.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it s for her.
7
SPEAKER_07
But this just came into my head.
7
SPEAKER_07
He s like, this place makes me wanna meet the man upstairs, shake his hand and see how he s doing.
7
SPEAKER_07
Doesn t that sound like there s so much money we wanna shake God s hand.
7
SPEAKER_03
It s a very left-handed quality that you re showing us right now.
7
Oh, boy.
7
SPEAKER_07
Thank you.
7
SPEAKER_04
There s no one who doesn t like you.
7
SPEAKER_04
Take that, Monica.
7
SPEAKER_04
I m happy that she said that to you.
7
SPEAKER_07
I don t think so.
7
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, I am.
7
SPEAKER_04
I just want you to be.
7
SPEAKER_04
Tread lightly?
7
SPEAKER_07
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_07
He would say tread lightly too.
7
SPEAKER_03
He would.
7
SPEAKER_07
Green lights.
7
SPEAKER_07
Okay, that s a good one.
7
SPEAKER_07
So McConaughey, is there anyone else?
7
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, that s a good one.
7
SPEAKER_07
This is a fun game.
7
SPEAKER_03
Now I m like blanking.
7
SPEAKER_07
And to any older actor you didn t pick, it s just because he forgot you.
7
SPEAKER_03
Exactly.
7
SPEAKER_03
Except Brad Pitt.
7
SPEAKER_03
Who do you think that I should date?
7
SPEAKER_03
I m in the market.
7
SPEAKER_07
Okay.
7
SPEAKER_03
If that was the game, the first time I date someone older, they re an actor, it s making the headlines, who is it?
7
SPEAKER_03
Oscar Isaacs.
7
SPEAKER_07
Oh, that s a good one.
7
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, he s great.
7
SPEAKER_07
He s phenomenal.
7
SPEAKER_07
Oh, Sam Rockwell.
7
SPEAKER_07
He s married, but let s forget that.
7
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, you know, this is a silly game.
7
SPEAKER_03
We re not.
7
SPEAKER_07
Sam Rockwell.
7
SPEAKER_03
Sam Rockwell.
7
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, actually.
7
SPEAKER_07
I would place you with him.
7
SPEAKER_03
Oh, cool.
7
SPEAKER_07
If I were your agent, that s who I would try to get general with.
7
SPEAKER_07
I m going to write to my publicist immediately.
7
SPEAKER_03
Keep an eye on his marriage.
7
SPEAKER_03
Put him on my Google Alert.
7
SPEAKER_07
One last one.
7
SPEAKER_07
He might be too serious for you, but artistically, I want this for you.
7
SPEAKER_07
Mark Ruffalo.
7
SPEAKER_04
Great.
7
SPEAKER_04
Great.
7
SPEAKER_04
No, I think he s more playful than we think.
7
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_03
Did you guys watch Poor Thing?
7
SPEAKER_03
Yes.
7
SPEAKER_07
A, what a fucking movie.
7
SPEAKER_07
Back to our girl, Emma Stone.
7
SPEAKER_03
The Revelation.
7
SPEAKER_07
And then Ruffalo is just mind-blowing.
7
SPEAKER_03
I have a podcast.
7
SPEAKER_07
We just did an episode on Poor Things.
7
SPEAKER_07
What was your takeaway?
7
SPEAKER_03
Well, so I have two girls I do it with.
7
SPEAKER_03
We all work in film and we talk about movies.
7
SPEAKER_07
What s the name of it?
7
SPEAKER_07
Shout it out.
7
SPEAKER_03
Frank Film Club.
7
SPEAKER_03
Frank Film Club.
7
SPEAKER_03
Maisie Williams.
7
SPEAKER_07
Yes.
7
SPEAKER_03
Naturally.
7
SPEAKER_03
With Mark Ruffalo.
7
SPEAKER_03
So the girls absolutely loved, loved, loved, loved his performance.
7
SPEAKER_03
And it s not that I didn t love it.
7
SPEAKER_03
I just felt like he felt uncomfortable playing that.
7
SPEAKER_03
And he did.
7
SPEAKER_03
He spoke out a lot about how sort of uncomfortable he was doing it.
7
SPEAKER_07
Because of the misogyny or because of the accent?
7
SPEAKER_03
The accent, just purely the accent, the character.
7
SPEAKER_03
Sometimes I think movies are ruined because you re just looking at the actor behind, trying to be like, is this making you feel uncomfortable?
7
SPEAKER_07
The fact that you even know he s American doing this accent.
7
SPEAKER_03
A little bit.
7
SPEAKER_07
Because it could just be an English bloke doing a buffoonish accent.
7
SPEAKER_03
Exactly.
7
SPEAKER_03
But the girls, they loved, loved, loved it.
7
SPEAKER_03
But I just felt really uncomfortable for him.
7
SPEAKER_03
And then he spoke out about being uncomfortable.
7
SPEAKER_03
The point of all this is that I may have shot myself in the foot with Mark Everbee.
7
SPEAKER_07
No, no, no, this is ideal.
7
SPEAKER_07
Because you re probably the only woman in the country that had something negative.
7
SPEAKER_03
Hard to get.
7
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, I m actually just saying it to be hard to get.
7
SPEAKER_07
Unobtainable.
7
SPEAKER_07
Limited edition.
7
SPEAKER_07
Oh, we love it.
7
SPEAKER_07
I found that movie to be insanely profound.
7
SPEAKER_07
And again, I think it s part of me being an older guy.
7
SPEAKER_03
Right, because you were just like, how can a woman have so much agency?
7
SPEAKER_07
Obviously that is not my disposition but I thought it was among the most feminist movies I ve ever seen in my life Okay, cool And I think it nailed on the head this thing that no one s really done yet in a movie and I think we saw it I hate to keep bringing it up.
7
SPEAKER_07
But if you ve seen the Anthony Bourdain documentary, it s very present in there I think there s this terrible trope that is real or older men fall in love with younger women
7
SPEAKER_07
and they re attracted to their effervescence and their gaiety for life and whatever, their looseness and playfulness.
7
SPEAKER_07
And then the second they have it, they re so threatened by it and they have to absolutely snuff it out because they re so scared they can t keep it.
7
SPEAKER_07
And I don t know that I ve ever seen that done as well as it was done in this movie.
7
SPEAKER_07
I see that all around, especially in this town.
7
SPEAKER_07
I see a lot of older dudes that tried to capture a butterfly in their fucking net and then it drives them mad.
7
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_03
We re hoping for that with you.
7
SPEAKER_03
Well, that s what s going to happen.
7
SPEAKER_03
You might ruin Sam Rockwell.
7
SPEAKER_03
I m the butterfly.
7
SPEAKER_07
Can you imagine McConaughey losing his shit over you?
7
SPEAKER_04
I d love to watch that, just him devolve.
7
SPEAKER_03
It s interesting hearing that because we re three girls and we talk about the movie and we just constantly speaking about her perspective.
7
SPEAKER_03
But I love hearing that take because like we did not bring that up at all.
7
SPEAKER_03
And that s it.
7
SPEAKER_03
But we just love that the entire time she has full control.
7
SPEAKER_03
And it s just this suggestion that the guy feels like he s kind of trapped this.
7
SPEAKER_03
But the whole time she is doing exactly what she wants.
7
SPEAKER_03
It just so happens that for a couple of pages of the movie, it seems to align with what he wants to.
7
SPEAKER_03
It s quite amazing.
7
SPEAKER_07
Willem s character has great fear of her, and even more Rami s character, they have such great fear of her joining this Lothario.
7
SPEAKER_07
And as an audience member, you have the fear.
7
SPEAKER_07
You re like, she s a child.
7
SPEAKER_07
This guy clearly has bad intentions.
7
SPEAKER_07
And then yes, quickly you realize like, oh no, no, this gal will never be dominated by anybody, which is really incredible.
7
SPEAKER_07
But I think all of us succumb to that immediate thought of like, oh no, young, innocent girl, older man.
7
SPEAKER_07
I think probably 90% of the problems in the world derive from men s insecurity that they re not pleasing a woman.
7
SPEAKER_07
I think if you chase down all the wars, all the building businesses, all the building bridges, all of it is about the fear that their dicks are too small.
7
SPEAKER_07
All these things just burbling under all of male culture.
7
SPEAKER_07
And I think that that was very on display in this movie as well.
7
Wow.
7
SPEAKER_07
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_03
Well, they re not, so...
7
SPEAKER_03
Keep the wars coming.
7
SPEAKER_07
No, I m kidding, I m kidding, I m kidding, I m kidding.
7
SPEAKER_07
Maisie, this has been really fun.
7
SPEAKER_07
I love hearing you re above 50.
7
SPEAKER_07
Bliss, this could be maybe a runner we do.
7
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, we could keep, yeah.
7
SPEAKER_04
Let s think about it.
7
SPEAKER_04
Why don t you text us when there s more people?
7
SPEAKER_04
Yes, in a minute.
7
SPEAKER_07
Would you feel better about it if I also had the young male actors say what old gals they would date?
7
SPEAKER_04
I don t even like the term old gals.
7
SPEAKER_07
Well, I m saying old men.
7
SPEAKER_04
It s different.
7
SPEAKER_04
The way we look at older women in this country versus older men is so different.
7
SPEAKER_07
It s not comparable.
7
SPEAKER_07
It s a bad comp.
7
SPEAKER_07
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_07
You re right.
7
SPEAKER_03
Also, I feel like we would be picking actors over 50 and we d be picking actresses that are like barely 35.
7
SPEAKER_03
Exactly.
7
SPEAKER_03
It feels like there s a lot of damage control that comes with this segment.
7
SPEAKER_03
I m actually also whirring in my head currently.
7
SPEAKER_07
No, you re safe.
7
SPEAKER_03
I don t live here.
7
SPEAKER_03
It s our fault.
7
SPEAKER_03
It s Dax s fault.
7
SPEAKER_07
Monica s right.
7
SPEAKER_07
Because societally, it s different.
7
SPEAKER_07
It s just different.
7
SPEAKER_07
It s how it is.
7
SPEAKER_04
I m going to date a 22-year-old man.
7
SPEAKER_04
Great.
7
SPEAKER_04
And I m going to balance this all out.
7
SPEAKER_07
Now, is that a segment you d rather have?
7
SPEAKER_07
If we had older female actors in and we had some young bucks that you want to settle up with.
7
SPEAKER_04
I think our segments are doing... I think we re fine.
7
SPEAKER_07
We re fine.
7
SPEAKER_07
We don t need to add any more segments?
7
SPEAKER_04
No.
7
SPEAKER_07
Okay.
7
SPEAKER_07
Green light.
7
SPEAKER_07
All right, this has been so much fun.
7
SPEAKER_07
I want everyone to watch The New Look.
7
SPEAKER_07
Monica s gonna absolutely explode.
7
SPEAKER_04
I can t wait.
7
SPEAKER_04
I m gonna learn so much and enjoy it.
7
SPEAKER_04
I hope you love it.
7
SPEAKER_07
It s clearly a very high-budget, well-made show, too.
7
SPEAKER_07
I mean, we re in fuckin  Paris in 1944.
7
SPEAKER_07
Okay, The New Look, Apple Plus, Maisie, so much fun.
7
SPEAKER_07
Come back.
7
SPEAKER_04
Yes, please come back.
7
SPEAKER_03
I will, I would love to.
7
SPEAKER_03
Okay, great.
7
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, when I get, like, cast in something again, there s a real reason.
7
SPEAKER_03
If not, I ll just come to chat.
7
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, we like people just coming to chat.
7
SPEAKER_07
And I m glad I caught you in the phase of your life where you don t mind doing press.
7
SPEAKER_04
Yes.
7
SPEAKER_07
The very last thing I have to say, this was the other a name thing, was Aria became one of the most popular baby names during that show.
7
SPEAKER_07
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_07
And what s funny is, so did Khaleesi.
7
SPEAKER_07
One of my best friends named his daughter Khaleesi.
7
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
7
SPEAKER_07
Aria got out just fine.
7
SPEAKER_07
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_07
You re still pumped.
7
SPEAKER_07
I still love Khaleesi though.
7
SPEAKER_07
I don t really care if she went naughty.
7
SPEAKER_07
Yeah, it s fine.
7
SPEAKER_07
Yeah, I still like her.
7
SPEAKER_04
But it took a turn.
7
SPEAKER_04
It did.
7
SPEAKER_07
She s the only other person from the show we ve interviewed.
7
Amelia?
7
SPEAKER_07
Yeah, Amelia.
7
SPEAKER_02
We should have Sophie on.
7
SPEAKER_02
I d love to have her on.
7
SPEAKER_02
She s promoting a new show soon, so... You guys are still buddies, yeah?
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it s her birthday soon, so we re going out.
7
SPEAKER_04
Ooh, going out.
7
SPEAKER_04
Hollywood!
7
SPEAKER_04
Hollywood!
7
SPEAKER_04
Wine o clock!
7
SPEAKER_07
Alright, adore you, this has been so much fun.
7
SPEAKER_07
Good luck with everything.
7
SPEAKER_07
Good luck with the new look.
7
SPEAKER_07
Sounds similar.
7
SPEAKER_03
Thank you, it was a pleasure.
7
SPEAKER_03
Bye.
7
SPEAKER_07
Bye.
7
SPEAKER_07
Stay tuned for the fact check so you can hear all the facts that were wrong.
7
SPEAKER_06
Oh, what do we got here?
7
SPEAKER_06
Oh, I got a hunch, I know what it is.
7
SPEAKER_06
Can you guess it yourself?
7
SPEAKER_06
Miniature mouse with maximum brain power.
7
SPEAKER_04
Is it our, oh, it s a best boy plaque?
7
SPEAKER_07
I think it s the best boy award.
7
SPEAKER_07
It s the best boy award.
7
SPEAKER_07
Let s see it, unveil it.
7
SPEAKER_04
Drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
7
SPEAKER_04
Best boy award awarded to Jimmy Kimmel for being the best boy in the world Do we have multiples now just one take a picture and send it to him I
7
SPEAKER_05
No, he s got to receive it.
7
SPEAKER_05
Yeah, we can t we can t keep the best boy award.
7
SPEAKER_05
I want to keep he earned it I mean we can we can order a second.
7
SPEAKER_05
They kept the molding for me.
7
SPEAKER_07
I mean, I imagine though some expensive parts the first one Yeah, yeah.
7
SPEAKER_05
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_04
Was it 3d printed?
7
SPEAKER_05
No, I gave them pictures.
7
SPEAKER_05
That s the picture we took out there and I found some other Angles so they could get everything shaped, right?
8
SPEAKER_02
Wow.
8
SPEAKER_02
Well, we have to take a picture to post it.
8
SPEAKER_00
For sure.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I might have to drive over there or something.
8
SPEAKER_00
Wow, great job, Rob.
8
SPEAKER_00
He won t even know.
8
SPEAKER_02
He doesn t know what it is.
8
SPEAKER_00
No, he has no clue that he s already been the best boy for months.
8
SPEAKER_00
And a very busy week for him, right?
8
SPEAKER_00
Are the Oscars?
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, Sunday.
8
SPEAKER_00
Sunday.
8
SPEAKER_00
So the Oscars were yesterday.
8
SPEAKER_02
Right.
8
SPEAKER_00
Do you think I should go on stage at the Oscars and present it to him?
8
SPEAKER_00
That d be a great publicity stunt for
8
SPEAKER_00
Armchair expert.
8
SPEAKER_00
Armchair expert.
8
SPEAKER_00
It came out weird.
8
SPEAKER_00
Armchair expert.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, we need more visibility.
8
SPEAKER_00
Uh-huh.
8
SPEAKER_00
We got to up our profile.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
Impressions.
8
SPEAKER_00
We need impressions and reposts.
8
SPEAKER_00
Engagement.
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh, engagement.
8
SPEAKER_00
That s the word I was looking for.
8
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
8
SPEAKER_00
Rob, this is really incredible.
8
SPEAKER_00
You see the beard?
8
SPEAKER_00
It looks so good.
8
SPEAKER_00
The detail of the beard.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, they did a great job with it.
8
SPEAKER_01
Oh, my Lord.
8
SPEAKER_00
Do you want to give a shout out to the company?
8
SPEAKER_01
Christian and Natalie at Just Us Monuments.
8
SPEAKER_01
Just Us Monuments.
8
SPEAKER_02
Fuck, this is gorgeous.
8
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I agree with you, it kills me to give this away.
8
SPEAKER_02
I know.
8
SPEAKER_00
Because you know what we should have, is we should have like a little, there s no room in here to do it, but like a, hang on, put a little shelf up and then have like a Mount Rushmore vestibule.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yes, can we do that?
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, let s do that.
8
SPEAKER_00
We need some space, but we ll figure, oh, we can put something there.
8
SPEAKER_02
We can put a little shelf above that.
8
SPEAKER_00
I imagine if we go long enough, entering this room will be impossible for the guests.
8
SPEAKER_00
It really looks more and more like Diagon Alley s Sworcerer s Shop.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it does.
8
SPEAKER_00
Or my favorite kind of old school hardware stores where all vertical space is taken out.
8
SPEAKER_00
I love that.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, the one right on Western is incredible that way.
8
SPEAKER_00
Every square inch of the store has got merch on it.
8
SPEAKER_02
We can do a floating shelf on this above the
8
SPEAKER_02
picture of the planes.
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh, sure.
8
SPEAKER_02
And then that ll be perfect.
8
SPEAKER_00
That would be perfect, yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
Just below the about to collapse crawlspace.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
Attic entry.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
Well, who was it that just walked in there like, boy, this has really become adorned since my first.
8
SPEAKER_00
Bateman.
8
SPEAKER_00
Bateman.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
Who couldn t help but notice the strides that were made.
8
SPEAKER_02
Well, you were saying you saw one of like a very, very, very old picture from like one of the first episodes where you re in the rolling chair.
8
SPEAKER_00
I m in the Rob s rolling chair.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I m two feet from the guests.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh my God.
8
SPEAKER_00
So weird.
8
SPEAKER_00
So awkward.
8
SPEAKER_01
It was like an empty room at that point too.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s just that desk and nothing else.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s so funny.
8
SPEAKER_00
It s really, it s cool.
8
SPEAKER_00
You know what it reminds me of?
8
SPEAKER_00
Is like, you know, over the course of a school year, your locker will get more and more shit in it.
8
SPEAKER_00
And it almost pains you to like tear it all down.
8
SPEAKER_00
And this is like a locker that we just, we never have to turn in.
8
SPEAKER_00
It just keeps accumulating.
8
SPEAKER_02
You re right, posters and junk.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I never had really the luxury of the locker experience.
8
SPEAKER_02
Why?
8
SPEAKER_02
Because our high school was so big that my locker was, I never had time to go to it.
8
SPEAKER_00
But you had a locker.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, but you had to like cross campus.
8
SPEAKER_02
You had like seven minutes and it was stressful.
8
SPEAKER_00
Take the tram from the airport.
8
SPEAKER_00
Basically.
8
SPEAKER_02
Sometimes your locker, you know, it s often in a building you re not in and you can t go that way and then turn, it didn t make any sense.
8
SPEAKER_02
So I just carried,
8
SPEAKER_02
All my books.
8
SPEAKER_00
Everything you needed.
8
SPEAKER_00
Your go bag, as they call it in the CIA.
8
SPEAKER_00
How many students?
8
SPEAKER_02
It split into two schools, but when we started, my class had a thousand students.
8
SPEAKER_00
Your class?
8
SPEAKER_00
So the school had 4,000 students?
8
SPEAKER_02
At the beginning, yeah.
8
SPEAKER_02
And then, yeah, a new school opened and half of the people went.
8
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so when you graduated,
8
SPEAKER_00
There were 2,000 students?
8
SPEAKER_02
Probably, yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
That s outrageous.
8
SPEAKER_00
I think we were 1,200 all in.
8
SPEAKER_00
I think it was about 400 a grade.
8
SPEAKER_00
Although after I left, and even when you were in Michigan with me, I drove you past there.
8
SPEAKER_00
And it s turned into like a Amazon distribution center.
8
SPEAKER_00
Like it s so, it s three times the size.
8
SPEAKER_00
Like they built over it and on it so much that when I look at it, I m like, I don t even really know where you used to enter.
8
SPEAKER_00
It like just swallowed it up like those cells that Bill was telling us about.
8
SPEAKER_00
What stories, so now that you re out and about, what stories do you find that you are telling now?
8
SPEAKER_02
Oh, um, I ve told the Rippin, the time-space continuum, the little girl.
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh, hi Dax.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I ve talked about her a fair amount.
8
SPEAKER_00
Because I had a dinner with Charlie and Eric.
8
SPEAKER_02
Uh-huh.
8
SPEAKER_00
So that got to be a fun version.
8
SPEAKER_00
you know, you cater to your audience.
8
SPEAKER_00
And there was so much to select from over the seven days.
8
SPEAKER_00
So I noticed that that dinner, of course it s all comedy, I m going straight comedy.
8
SPEAKER_00
And then I was talking to Aaron this morning on FaceTime.
8
SPEAKER_00
And of course for Aaron, I knew the thing he d relate most to, because we re from the same dirt road, is how much you and I did not, we were so scared.
8
SPEAKER_00
We weren t doing what we were supposed to be doing.
8
SPEAKER_00
We didn t know what value we were adding to anybody.
8
SPEAKER_00
And we just kept thinking like, why on earth?
8
SPEAKER_00
that they ve let us come here.
8
SPEAKER_00
So Erin and I were laughing so hard about the notion that like the participants at each breakfast plus you and me.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I know.
8
SPEAKER_02
I talked about, I have told some people about that and I forgot a piece that when we were at that fancy breakfast and totally didn t belong and we re waiting to be, I feared introduced, I took the wrong person s napkin.
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh, right.
8
SPEAKER_00
But it was the cute young billionaire.
8
SPEAKER_00
To me, it felt like a meet cute.
8
SPEAKER_00
Well, it was the guy who owned the equivalent of Instacart and Postmates and Uber Eats.
8
SPEAKER_00
He like total market dominance.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
He s a Titan.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
8
SPEAKER_00
But he s also young and in a sweatshirt.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_02
He was like very stereotypical billionaire, like doesn t because we were told to wear business formal.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yes, and we complied.
8
SPEAKER_02
We did, and he didn t, but he didn t have to, I guess.
8
SPEAKER_00
But it was his napkin you took.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
So it was such a meet cute.
8
SPEAKER_00
They put the two youngest people next to each other at the table, and then you stole his napkin.
8
SPEAKER_02
On accident.
8
SPEAKER_00
Do you think this was a missed meet cute?
8
SPEAKER_02
Maybe.
8
SPEAKER_00
He was cute.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, he was.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
He exuded a confidence one has when they build something monumental.
8
SPEAKER_02
He did and he was being humble, like he was explaining his thing to Bill and then everyone kept chiming in to like really tell him the truth about it, which is like it s huge.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
8
SPEAKER_02
And I did like that.
8
SPEAKER_02
But yeah, I took his napkin on accident because I grabbed from the wrong side.
8
SPEAKER_02
And then he had to like point to the other napkin.
8
SPEAKER_02
It was so embarrassing.
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh, but also cute.
8
SPEAKER_02
It s like, it s just so pretty woman.
8
SPEAKER_02
We re like, you don t know what you re doing and you re using the wrong form.
8
SPEAKER_00
You re exposing your low station in life.
8
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
Anywho, we got distracted.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
Best boy award.
8
SPEAKER_02
Best boy.
8
SPEAKER_02
What else?
8
SPEAKER_02
We had dinner.
8
SPEAKER_02
Any gossip from dinner?
8
SPEAKER_00
Of course, Eric and I argued for a while about the sim.
8
SPEAKER_02
Oh.
8
SPEAKER_00
Because I said the point Bill made.
8
SPEAKER_00
Did I say it on the last fact check?
8
SPEAKER_00
So we had the audacity to ask Bill if he thought it was possible that we could be in a sim.
8
SPEAKER_00
Right.
8
SPEAKER_00
And he said, there is so much data in the universe that there is no computer that would ever fit on a planet that could handle all the data that exists in the universe to be recreating it.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
And that the only way there would be a simulation is if this universe was a simulation from a much bigger universe somewhere else.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, which makes sense.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, but Erica was really hung up on the notion that it could be tricking you and it doesn t really know all the data of the universe.
8
SPEAKER_00
And that when we point our telescope somewhere and start getting information, it s just kind of tricking us.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, but that wouldn t hold up.
8
SPEAKER_00
It couldn t like do a random generated, none of it would logically flow.
8
SPEAKER_00
We couldn t base any,
8
SPEAKER_02
But can they wipe our memories and stuff?
8
SPEAKER_02
We don t know their powers.
8
SPEAKER_00
We don t know that we weren t born five minutes ago.
8
SPEAKER_02
And we don t know if they can do something with our eyes and then we think we see something and we don t.
8
SPEAKER_00
But we are in an observable reality and we are measuring all kinds of data from the reality and it s consistent.
8
SPEAKER_00
It s not like you measure that thing.
8
SPEAKER_00
and it says it s six meters, and then you measure the thing next to it, and it says it s 26 meters, and they re the same height.
8
SPEAKER_00
It s hugely consistent.
8
SPEAKER_00
So they would have had to build the entire universe.
8
SPEAKER_02
I just think if they make a mistake, they can probably clean our memory like they do in Harry Potter.
8
SPEAKER_00
Or Men in Black, my favorite franchise.
8
SPEAKER_02
Well, you already said Diagon Alley.
8
SPEAKER_01
I did, that was for you.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s conceivable too if we have microscopic elements that our universe is microscopic for another place.
8
SPEAKER_00
Right, that s what he s saying is that it would have to be in a different universe 10X the size of ours to have a planet big enough that could house a thing big enough that could hold all the data and process it and be recreating it in a consistent logical way.
8
SPEAKER_00
But Eric, it s really funny, because when you just want to believe in something, it s very that Jonathan Haidt thing, where it s like, if your gut tells you something, all your logic really bears no influence on it.
8
SPEAKER_02
Confirmation bias, yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I get it, like Eric likes the idea that it could be, and so it doesn t really matter if someone 40 times smarter than us says why it couldn t be.
8
SPEAKER_02
Well, he s saying in theory,
9
SPEAKER_01
if there is a universe bigger, like it could, he s just saying that- It would require a different universe.
9
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
9
SPEAKER_00
But Eric s saying- We wouldn t know about that.
9
SPEAKER_00
But Eric s fight was that this universe could create it.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, if he says it can t, and he knows everything about computing power, I think we have to defer to him on that point, that it couldn t exist within this universe.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I mean- Now you re feeling a little bit too, because you like the Sim?
9
SPEAKER_01
No, I just, I think it s okay to poke holes.
9
SPEAKER_01
Oh.
9
SPEAKER_01
Which Eric did.
9
SPEAKER_00
I think it is too.
9
SPEAKER_00
What I m pointing out is that he would acknowledge that this person who says it s not possible in this universe is way smarter than him.
9
SPEAKER_00
And so he would never say like, Bill said this about AI, but I got a hunch AI doesn t work that way.
9
SPEAKER_00
He would absolutely defer to Bill about
9
SPEAKER_01
Well, sure, yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
But because he has an emotional connection with this idea about the Sim, he is able to disregard Bill s opinion, and that s a very interesting human aspect.
9
SPEAKER_01
Well, it is, but I think it s because this is opinion.
9
SPEAKER_01
This isn t fact.
9
SPEAKER_01
Like, if he s asking about AI, there s facts.
9
SPEAKER_01
Like, he s gonna take all Bill s facts and knowledge, but the Sim is unknowable.
9
SPEAKER_01
We don t know.
9
SPEAKER_01
No one knows.
9
SPEAKER_00
But I would argue it s a fact what Bill s saying about the size of the computer that would be required to hold all of the data that exists in the full universe.
9
SPEAKER_00
I think that s not his opinions.
9
SPEAKER_00
He knows about computing and the... Yeah, for sure.
9
SPEAKER_01
But Eric s point is that we re being tricked, so there s no way to know if we know that.
9
SPEAKER_01
Like it s so many layers.
9
SPEAKER_01
I could see...
9
SPEAKER_00
Like I would totally accept Eric going, okay, great.
9
SPEAKER_00
Then it s, yeah, it s a much bigger universe that has a planet on it.
9
SPEAKER_00
That s the size of our universe that does have a computer that s that big and can hold all of it.
9
SPEAKER_00
But he didn t shift to that.
9
SPEAKER_00
And so that s what I m pointing out, which is very fascinating about humans, myself included.
9
SPEAKER_00
You have an emotional feeling about something and you re able to even disregard someone who clearly has a much better guess than you do.
9
SPEAKER_01
Right.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, we all do that, I guess.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, we re all guilty of it.
9
SPEAKER_01
I had something to tell you.
9
SPEAKER_01
Some news.
9
SPEAKER_00
Hot news?
9
SPEAKER_01
Thought maybe I had lunch.
9
SPEAKER_00
What d you do last night?
9
SPEAKER_00
Let me help you jog your memory.
9
SPEAKER_01
Let s see, I had lunch with Callie.
9
SPEAKER_01
So you hung out with your friend, too, yesterday.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I had a meeting for a couple hours, and I was on the side of town that Uncle Grandpa lives on, my best friend, Tom Hanson.
9
SPEAKER_00
Friend of the pod.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
9
SPEAKER_00
It was great.
9
SPEAKER_00
We had a full three hours sitting in the kitchen just talking.
9
SPEAKER_01
Nice.
9
SPEAKER_00
And it was just beautiful.
9
SPEAKER_00
I cherished it.
9
SPEAKER_01
Great.
9
SPEAKER_00
And, uh, oh, and then I got home and the whole family started Love on the Spectrum.
9
SPEAKER_01
Oh, yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
And as promised, it is the cutest show imaginable.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s so heartwarming.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
Have you tried it yet?
9
SPEAKER_01
No.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s infectious.
9
SPEAKER_01
Good.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
Well, this is from Maisie.
9
SPEAKER_01
Maisie.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
9
SPEAKER_01
I got excited again listening to it because of all the facts.
9
SPEAKER_00
Oh yeah, have you started the show?
9
SPEAKER_00
Not yet.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s out now.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yes, it s out.
9
SPEAKER_01
I have to watch it.
9
SPEAKER_00
Oh, you know what Uncle Grandpa told me yesterday?
9
SPEAKER_01
What?
9
SPEAKER_00
He watched the movie Iron Claw that Jeremy Ellen White.
9
SPEAKER_01
And Zac Efron.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yes, have you seen it?
9
SPEAKER_01
No, I ve just seen the previews.
9
SPEAKER_00
Oh, he said it s really good.
9
SPEAKER_01
Really?
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and I guess they re monsterly in it.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, they look huge.
9
SPEAKER_00
Everyone s a monster, because we got Roadhouse coming out.
9
SPEAKER_00
Have you been seeing any of the previews for that?
9
SPEAKER_01
I saw on Jake s Instagram, yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
And his physique is...
9
SPEAKER_01
He s in shape.
9
SPEAKER_00
He s banging.
9
SPEAKER_01
I don t think, I mean, you can t do Roadhouse and not be right.
9
SPEAKER_01
That s like the whole thing.
9
SPEAKER_00
Swayze was the first.
9
SPEAKER_00
Swayze s the first one.
9
SPEAKER_00
You had Arnold and you had Sly, but they were like huge.
9
SPEAKER_00
Swayze was the first of the Marvel body, or like you would believe he s still a gym, and in fact, he had been a gymnast, Patrick Swayze.
9
SPEAKER_00
and a football player.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, great combo.
9
SPEAKER_00
He was a metropolitan man.
9
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
Did you ever watch that show on Netflix, like your favorite movies, how they were made or something?
9
SPEAKER_01
No.
9
SPEAKER_00
And they did Dirty Dancing.
9
SPEAKER_00
Oh, such a good movie.
9
SPEAKER_00
And you know, they legendarily hated each other, which is really funny.
9
SPEAKER_00
Oh, really?
9
SPEAKER_00
Yes, yes, and they get into that.
9
SPEAKER_01
Whoa.
9
SPEAKER_00
And they talk about that big scene where he had to run and jump off the stage and be like a swan in the air.
9
SPEAKER_00
And he had the terrible leg injury from,
9
SPEAKER_00
football, like multiple breaks and surgeries.
9
SPEAKER_00
CTE.
9
SPEAKER_00
And he, I don t know if he.
9
SPEAKER_00
In his leg, he had CTE in his leg.
9
SPEAKER_00
Okay, what would that be?
9
SPEAKER_00
LTE or something, leg trauma, something.
9
SPEAKER_00
And he just jumped over and over.
9
SPEAKER_00
And they have all the footage.
9
SPEAKER_00
And most of the times he landed, he just collapsed.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and he just kept going, because he s a gymnast.
9
SPEAKER_00
And gymnasts don t give a fuck.
9
SPEAKER_00
They don t quit.
9
SPEAKER_00
Go right through the pain.
9
SPEAKER_00
There was a super interesting, I know, I think I bring this up before,
9
SPEAKER_00
I don t know, I urge people to read it.
9
SPEAKER_00
I know why, because Ricky, our good friend, Ricky Glassman, he s had a bunch of different weird injuries and it sidelines him from exercising a lot.
9
SPEAKER_00
And then he gets depressed and he was sharing all this with me.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, you really should check out Lane Norton s got a lot of work on pain.
9
SPEAKER_00
And he just had a recent post.
9
SPEAKER_00
if you go to at BioLane, and it has immense data on pain, and it s also counterintuitive.
9
SPEAKER_00
You just really wouldn t believe how mental it is.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s a really, really mental thing.
9
SPEAKER_00
If you look at the broad data, if you compare people with tissue damage and you compare people with pain, there s not much correlation.
9
SPEAKER_00
So there s a lot of people with pain and no tissue damage, and there s a lot of people with tissue damage with no pain.
9
SPEAKER_00
So it s just a very fascinating field.
9
SPEAKER_00
I think there s a couple experts in it we should have one on.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I d like to.
9
SPEAKER_01
Because can t a lot of that have to do with just like pain receptors and how like maybe that differs a lot between people?
9
SPEAKER_00
Yes, but here s what I tried to explain to Lincoln, I think is a way people could relate to how subjective pain is.
9
SPEAKER_00
If you re on the playground playing and you want to go tackle somebody, you ve decided like, I want to bring them down and you run at them and you tackle them and it doesn t hurt you.
9
SPEAKER_00
Now, if you re standing still and you re not expecting it and someone tackles you, the exact same amount of trauma and impact and concussion, all that stuff, it kills.
9
SPEAKER_00
Or you fall down the steps, that kills.
9
SPEAKER_00
But when they re on the bar and they wanna be spinning and they fall, they jump right back up because they wanna do it.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s like the mindset is like, yes, I m gonna ignore this thing in pursuit of this other thing versus I expect comfort and now I have this trauma.
9
SPEAKER_00
These are like,
9
SPEAKER_00
pretty much relatively the same level of trauma.
9
SPEAKER_00
That s interesting.
9
SPEAKER_00
But because you chose to do one and didn t choose to do another, the response is light years different.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s very visible when you have kids, you witness it all the time.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
Like they ll be running and you re not looking at them and they hit the deck, but they wanted to be running and they just get up and they, versus they re sitting there and their sister kicks them in the same part of the knee that they just fell on it and all of a sudden it s like.
9
SPEAKER_01
Right, well that feels more like anger.
9
SPEAKER_01
When anger is involved, there s an emotional pain added, which then causes that to be very heightened.
9
SPEAKER_00
But I also think there s like, it s almost the Buddhist thing where it s like, if there s an expectation of calm and pleasure that is interrupted with pain, versus there s an expectation of pain, there is no pain.
9
SPEAKER_01
Right, yeah, that s true.
9
SPEAKER_01
I wonder if also something physiological happens, like if you re on, I m thinking like the monkey bar, like if you re learning how to do like some gymnastics or something, you know you re gonna fall.
9
SPEAKER_01
So I wonder if your body is also, your muscles are working in a specific way.
9
SPEAKER_01
I mean, your brain controls all of that, right?
9
SPEAKER_00
So I m sure- Yeah, your brain is entirely deciding what signals it s gonna send.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
Example I know very intimately, but you won t like is that like the times in my life where I was afraid someone was going to beat me up.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I focused on the fact that I m going to get hurt by this person.
9
SPEAKER_00
And when they were hurting me, it hurt versus when I got in fights where it s like, I just wanted to hurt that person.
9
SPEAKER_00
I was not thinking about anything about me.
9
SPEAKER_00
I was singularly focused on, I m going to hurt that person.
9
SPEAKER_00
In those fights, I got hit just as much.
9
SPEAKER_00
You don t feel them at all.
9
SPEAKER_00
Like when you choose to be in a fight and you want to go after that person and hurt them, you don t feel any of the shit that happens to you.
9
SPEAKER_00
If you get your nose broken like four hours later, it ll hurt, but your brain s in a complete, it s almost like your brain s like, it s in a zone that decommissions the other side.
9
SPEAKER_00
Whereas like, oh no, they re coming, they re gonna hurt me.
9
SPEAKER_00
You re already focused on the part that s gonna be painful.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it s like how moms lift cars up off of people.
9
SPEAKER_01
When you re in certain modes that you can handle things and do things that you can t normally do.
9
SPEAKER_00
Right.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s interesting.
9
SPEAKER_00
I think it s way more subjective than we want to.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
But the shit that s driving people nuts, but it s just the mass data.
9
SPEAKER_00
You can t ignore it.
9
SPEAKER_00
Stretching does not reduce injury.
9
SPEAKER_00
Form doesn t reduce injury.
9
SPEAKER_00
All these things that are like 10
10
SPEAKER_00
of exercise.
10
SPEAKER_01
How could form not?
10
SPEAKER_01
Because if you re holding your back in a certain way.
10
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you should read it.
10
SPEAKER_00
So they ve done these enormous studies on everyone s forms and you re just as likely to hurt yourself with great form as you are with bad form, which no one wants to hear.
10
SPEAKER_00
That s the thing that s pissing people the most off in the comments, but it s just straight data.
10
SPEAKER_00
It s not anyone s opinion.
10
SPEAKER_00
It s like, here are the 10,000 people that were studied.
10
SPEAKER_00
Here are the results of it.
10
SPEAKER_00
The only thing that can reduce injury, quantifiably, that the data proves, is warm-ups help.
10
SPEAKER_00
So if you start doing a light version of the exercise you re gonna do to get your heart rate up and get your blood flowing and get your body moving, but stretching won t reduce your risk.
10
SPEAKER_00
It s really fun to see something so inflammatory.
10
SPEAKER_00
It s kind of like the Malcolm Gladwell stuff.
10
SPEAKER_01
But I guess, so these are all studies, they re like recent studies?
10
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_01
Because there s statistics, there s data that made people say it to begin with.
10
SPEAKER_01
So why is that data getting thrown out?
10
SPEAKER_00
I don t know if there was data.
10
SPEAKER_00
I think there s a lot of intuitive things that make sense to people.
10
SPEAKER_00
Like, of course, good form.
10
SPEAKER_00
Anatomically, your body moves this way.
10
SPEAKER_00
Of course, if you have your back rolled over during squats, that s gonna put more pressure on your neck.
10
SPEAKER_00
You know, like, I think a lot of stuff s intuitive.
10
SPEAKER_00
I don t know that they studied it.
10
SPEAKER_00
But regardless, these are all metadata.
10
SPEAKER_00
So it s like all of the studies that have been done on this topic.
10
SPEAKER_00
What do we see emerge from all of them?
10
SPEAKER_00
He is mostly dealing with meta-analysis of data.
10
SPEAKER_01
Okay, amazing.
10
SPEAKER_01
How old is Ben Mendelsohn who is on her show?
10
SPEAKER_01
He s 54.
10
SPEAKER_01
We were saying he s also worked since he was a kid.
10
SPEAKER_00
He s my sweet brother s age.
10
SPEAKER_01
She feels like she doesn t know anything when she s around him.
10
SPEAKER_00
54.
10
SPEAKER_00
When I hear 54, I go, that s old.
10
SPEAKER_00
And then I go, oh, my brother s 54 now.
10
SPEAKER_00
And then it seems young.
10
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, of course.
10
SPEAKER_01
I know.
10
SPEAKER_00
I bet 49 has been impacted for you by knowing me.
10
SPEAKER_01
For sure.
10
SPEAKER_01
I mean, you re like.
10
SPEAKER_00
I m 49.
10
SPEAKER_01
When you are 50, I m saying that will, I mean, I already have that with Eric, like he s in his 50s.
10
SPEAKER_00
Yes, yes, yes.
10
SPEAKER_01
That s, yeah.
10
SPEAKER_00
Well, in my meeting yesterday, I wore my black Chuck Taylor Converse and my Levi s cuffed in a black shirt, the outfit I m wearing currently.
10
SPEAKER_01
But black?
10
SPEAKER_00
The same outfit.
10
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I put it on in the afternoon yesterday and I m still wearing it today.
10
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, yeah, this is the exact outfit I wore in eighth grade every day.
10
SPEAKER_00
And then I m like, I m still, I m trying to be a little boy, I think.
10
SPEAKER_00
And does it look preposterous yet?
10
SPEAKER_01
Well, you know my theory about fashion a little bit.
10
SPEAKER_01
Oh, ding, ding, ding, fashion.
10
SPEAKER_01
I think we, like the moment we have like our first burst of confidence.
10
SPEAKER_00
You get stuck there.
10
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you get stuck and then you re like recreating that fashion style for the rest of your life.
10
SPEAKER_00
So what is yours?
10
SPEAKER_01
So like I am, I m drawn to a lot of feminine touches.
10
SPEAKER_01
like ruffles or like a pretty sleeve or like pink and things like that.
10
SPEAKER_01
I don t always go for it because I counteract it because I don t want to walk around like a little girl.
10
SPEAKER_01
But I m always drawn to that and I always like it and I think that s why.
10
SPEAKER_00
So what age for you was everything working?
10
SPEAKER_00
So it s not the moment you were feeling yourself.
10
SPEAKER_01
But like maybe.
10
SPEAKER_00
I bet you were feeling yourself before.
10
SPEAKER_00
I know.
10
SPEAKER_00
Look at that little gal and she definitely seems pretty damn confident.
10
SPEAKER_01
And she looked cute.
10
SPEAKER_01
Like when I look at pictures, my mom dressed me cute.
10
SPEAKER_00
Ah, she had a little bit of Harvey doll.
10
SPEAKER_01
She had a little doll.
10
SPEAKER_01
And it was cute.
10
SPEAKER_01
And then it took a turn, because then she just started buying me stuff from goodies.
10
Right.
10
SPEAKER_01
Which wasn t as cute.
10
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
10
SPEAKER_01
So I m not trying to recreate that moment ever, really.
10
SPEAKER_00
Clearly your mother was doing what all parents do, which is they were giving their child what they wanted.
10
SPEAKER_00
So my reverse engineering hunch is that your mother was in Savannah with these Indian parents.
10
SPEAKER_00
And they probably weren t dressing her like a baby doll.
10
SPEAKER_01
Well, my grandma made all their clothes.
10
SPEAKER_00
Ooh, yeah.
10
SPEAKER_01
But she was good.
10
SPEAKER_00
I m sure she was.
10
SPEAKER_01
She was good.
10
SPEAKER_01
She made me some dresses that were really cute.
10
SPEAKER_00
She ran an atelier in her?
10
SPEAKER_01
Kind of.
10
SPEAKER_01
And we would go to the store, the fabric store, and we d pick out a fabric for my dress.
10
SPEAKER_00
But I think it s safe to assume she did for you what she wanted for herself.
10
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think most parents do that.
10
SPEAKER_01
But she didn t do that with goodies.
10
SPEAKER_01
I think they just got, they re just frugal.
10
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, maybe they were like, oh, these clothes last six months.
10
SPEAKER_00
This little bitch is growing like a weed.
10
SPEAKER_01
Even though I wasn t, I stayed small.
10
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you probably fit in that same outfit that s in that photo right there.
10
SPEAKER_00
That photo realistic painting.
10
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_01
So for you, you re recreating the outfit when you were young.
10
SPEAKER_00
Which is interesting because really I m recreating Beckham.
10
SPEAKER_00
And in doing so, I realized I m really recreating myself from seventh grade.
10
SPEAKER_00
I remember getting my first pair of Chuck Taylors.
10
SPEAKER_00
It s like what skaters wore before vans was an option.
10
SPEAKER_00
And this is 85, like the skate boys started wearing these.
10
SPEAKER_00
And my brother got them, so I got them.
10
SPEAKER_00
And then you had to roll up your guest jeans so you can see your all-stars.
10
SPEAKER_00
These were the first pair of shoes.
10
SPEAKER_00
I had had a pair of Nike or two before that.
10
SPEAKER_00
These were the first pair of shoes that I was like, yeah, found my personality.
10
SPEAKER_00
Like these are in keeping with who I am.
10
SPEAKER_00
Because they weren t popular in the 80s at all.
10
SPEAKER_01
They were a skater shoe even.
10
SPEAKER_00
When you were in high school?
10
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, very skater.
10
SPEAKER_00
I should grow my bangs out again.
10
SPEAKER_01
Oh my God.
10
SPEAKER_00
Get dreadlocks.
10
SPEAKER_00
Oh man, favorite hairdo ever.
10
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, probably not.
10
SPEAKER_01
Probably not.
10
SPEAKER_00
I might do it.
10
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
10
SPEAKER_01
Don t want to have a show anymore.
10
SPEAKER_00
They didn t let me have a show because I knotted my hair.
10
SPEAKER_01
Well, knowing that right now, like you re, it would be a statement doing it now.
10
SPEAKER_01
And it would be a statement that s like, why is it worth, why is it worth it?
10
SPEAKER_00
People would make it a statement.
10
SPEAKER_01
What is a statement?
10
SPEAKER_01
It would be a statement.
10
SPEAKER_00
No, a statement is you decide to make a statement.
10
SPEAKER_00
So I wouldn t be making a statement like, I reject the notion of cultural appropriation, and I m going to prove it and stand up for this, for my right to do this.
10
SPEAKER_00
That s not what it would be.
10
SPEAKER_00
It would be like, oh, I m going to get my favorite hairstyle I ever had again.
10
SPEAKER_00
Now, other people would glean from that that that s what I was doing.
10
SPEAKER_00
But I actually wouldn t be making a statement.
10
SPEAKER_01
But if anyone is flying a Confederate flag right now,
10
SPEAKER_01
They might be doing it because they love fishing, but they re deciding that that is more important to them than what it flags to a bunch of people and it bums a bunch of people out.
10
SPEAKER_01
They re deciding their love of fishing is more important, and that is a statement.
10
SPEAKER_00
But do you think those are equivalent hairdos in the Confederate flag?
10
SPEAKER_01
I think having dreadlocks right now in 2024 as a white person is a no-go.
10
SPEAKER_00
Like a Confederate flag.
10
SPEAKER_01
It s been made clear.
10
SPEAKER_01
So to make that choice is making a very specific choice.
10
SPEAKER_01
It s not like having two braids down your hair that like kind of looks a little indigenous.
10
SPEAKER_01
Dreadlocks is so specific.
10
SPEAKER_01
It s not like, oh, it looks a little kind of appropriation-y, but I m not sure, but it s not like middle ground-y.
10
SPEAKER_00
But I guess what you re saying is there is consensus that the Confederate flag, which it was the actual symbol to revolt against the North over slavery.
10
SPEAKER_00
So it s like, it s explicitly in support of slavery, the flag.
10
SPEAKER_00
There s no interpretation.
10
SPEAKER_01
Well, for some people, they interpret it differently.
10
SPEAKER_00
Well, that s just because maybe they don t know.
10
SPEAKER_01
No.
10
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I know people in the South who want to fly it.
10
SPEAKER_01
They know the stuff and they want to fly it because of their own culture.
10
SPEAKER_00
But there are kids that have been raised in a house that said that was a flag that represented states  rights.
10
SPEAKER_00
And then their parents didn t go on to say, what was this state right that everyone was fighting over?
10
SPEAKER_00
So there are kids that currently think that was a states  rights revolution.
10
SPEAKER_00
There are.
10
SPEAKER_00
But hairdo, I don t think is equivalent to the Confederate flag, personally.
10
SPEAKER_00
And I don t think black people think it s equivalent.
10
SPEAKER_00
I think some left white people think it is, but I don t really think there s black people think the Confederate flag and Rage Against the Machines lead singer, those are equivalent.
10
SPEAKER_01
It s still, it comes from black people.
10
SPEAKER_01
Let me touch your hair.
10
SPEAKER_01
What s happening with your hair?
10
SPEAKER_01
It was a thing.
10
SPEAKER_01
It s not separate from race.
10
SPEAKER_01
Like it is connected and it s connected to the history.
10
SPEAKER_00
But you re saying that some ethnicities have a singular right over a hairstyle and others can t have that hairstyle.
10
SPEAKER_01
I m not saying can t, but I m saying if you choose to be in the place we re at, you re making a decision despite a lot of people thinking that... I mean, it s like... To say a whole group of people can t have a hairstyle is an interesting proposition.
10
SPEAKER_01
Well, a whole group of people can t say a word, and I 100% believe that.
11
SPEAKER_01
Well, that word is a racial pejorative.
11
SPEAKER_01
It is.
11
SPEAKER_01
It s hateful.
11
SPEAKER_01
Wearing your hair in a certain way is not hateful.
11
SPEAKER_02
The hairstyle is connected to a racist history.
11
SPEAKER_01
To an identity of black people.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
11
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, 100%.
11
SPEAKER_01
It is most identified with specifically Bob Marley and Rasta culture.
11
SPEAKER_02
It was an identifying factor that was used as a negative.
11
SPEAKER_02
This group of people that s below us has hair like this and does this and that hair is weird and I don t understand it.
11
SPEAKER_02
Can I touch it?
11
SPEAKER_01
Well, hold on.
11
SPEAKER_01
Someone who s just making their hair dreadlocked is not saying black people have weird hair and I want to touch it.
11
SPEAKER_02
That s in the history though.
11
SPEAKER_02
That s part of it.
11
SPEAKER_02
The hair is a huge part of the history.
11
SPEAKER_01
That hairstyle certainly originated in the black community.
11
SPEAKER_01
Period.
11
SPEAKER_01
Agree.
11
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely agree 100% that they originated that hairstyle But the notion that they originated a hairstyle and that no one going forward in history can have that same hairstyle is a pretty extreme and interesting Proposition that there are hairstyles people can and cannot have there s no hate Behind that all the examples you re giving like the n-word in the Confederate flag.
11
SPEAKER_01
Those are all symbols of hate having a hairstyle that someone else invented is not a symbol of hate in any way and
11
SPEAKER_01
I don t think you could possibly make that argument.
11
SPEAKER_02
But it s still taking on a- It s taking some of their culture they invented.
11
SPEAKER_02
that they invented despite white people.
11
SPEAKER_02
Like they did it in defiance and then now you re deciding because it s convenient, not you, you as like white people, it s convenient for, no, now I like it, I m gonna have it.
11
SPEAKER_01
Well, no, because that assumed the person didn t like it.
11
SPEAKER_01
What you just said.
11
SPEAKER_02
Culture, you re making it so specific, you have to make it broad.
11
SPEAKER_01
But I don t think culturally people didn t like dreadlocks.
11
SPEAKER_01
I don t think white supremacists had an opinion about dreadlocks.
11
SPEAKER_01
Yes, of course.
11
SPEAKER_01
They had an opinion about black people.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yes, and that s connected, and so that s inferior.
11
SPEAKER_01
The question is, is if the black community invents something,
11
SPEAKER_01
does all of their inventions have to stay within their community or can they be used by other communities?
11
SPEAKER_01
That s the question.
11
SPEAKER_01
That s the real question.
11
SPEAKER_01
They invented hip hop.
11
SPEAKER_01
They invented jazz.
11
SPEAKER_01
They invented, white people invented the piano and the cello and the violin.
11
SPEAKER_01
And of course, everyone can use the violin and the piano.
11
SPEAKER_02
People who weren t marginalized, it s a different thing.
11
SPEAKER_01
But because the marginalized group invented something, the premise is no one else should use that invention.
11
SPEAKER_02
It s not, now we re in a, we were talking very specifically about you bringing dreadlocks back.
11
SPEAKER_01
Yes, so dreadlocks is exactly this.
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SPEAKER_01
So they invented a hairstyle.
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SPEAKER_01
And so because they invented it, white people should never have it.
11
SPEAKER_01
That s what that statement that s being made.
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SPEAKER_02
White people who felt superior.
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SPEAKER_01
But that s not anyone right now.
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SPEAKER_02
But that s where the history matters.
11
SPEAKER_02
It matters to all of this.
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SPEAKER_01
For all generations going forward.
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SPEAKER_01
So because one person hated dreadlocks.
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SPEAKER_02
One person?
11
SPEAKER_02
The whole culture is slavery.
11
SPEAKER_01
Because 100% of white people hated dreadlocks in 1840.
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SPEAKER_01
In 2024, when I don t even know, 70% of white people don t hate black people at all.
11
SPEAKER_01
White people shouldn t use a hairstyle they invented.
11
SPEAKER_02
Maybe when there s absolutely zero systemic racism, everyone can have all the same stuff.
11
SPEAKER_02
But right now, we re not there.
11
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so black people should have singular ownership over the culture they create.
11
SPEAKER_02
I think it s case by case.
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SPEAKER_02
It depends.
11
SPEAKER_01
Well, hip-hop s fine, right?
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SPEAKER_01
We re fine with white people doing hip-hop.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02
I mean, yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
And that was a villainized-ish, to be honest.
11
SPEAKER_02
I m like, yes, and I think it depends.
11
SPEAKER_01
I don t think you can tell any kid on planet Earth if they want to rap, they can t rap.
11
SPEAKER_02
Because someone else- I m not telling you can t.
11
SPEAKER_01
I m just, we re talking about it.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and I m saying, I m not saying can t.
11
SPEAKER_02
You re making it so-
11
SPEAKER_02
black and white.
11
SPEAKER_01
Well, it s very black and white.
11
SPEAKER_01
If you say white people can t have dreadlocks.
11
SPEAKER_02
I m not saying can t.
11
SPEAKER_02
You can do whatever you want.
11
SPEAKER_02
My point is, whatever you do, if you decide to do that, there ll be consequences.
11
SPEAKER_02
It s saying something and what you can say that it s not, but that s living in, not in reality and that not in this current time in this culture.
11
SPEAKER_02
And I don t care what anyone does, but if I see a white person with dreadlocks, I might think, oh, they love that hairstyle.
11
SPEAKER_02
And I also think they re- They shouldn t.
11
SPEAKER_02
No, they ve decided to prioritize them liking that hairstyle over a history that is not about them.
11
SPEAKER_01
Right, so in your scenario, I think you re saying that the white person has the dreadlocks, and that potentially a black person would see that and feel offended or angry, and that they prioritize their love for the hairstyle over having made the black person feel angry or offended.
11
SPEAKER_02
Or just like...
11
SPEAKER_01
Because if it s offending a white college student, tough shit.
11
SPEAKER_02
Oh, yeah, I don t care about that.
11
SPEAKER_01
And so I guess where you and I, I think we re getting down to where we differ.
11
SPEAKER_01
I don t really think black people would see a white guy with dreadlocks in a field.
11
SPEAKER_02
But we re not black, so we don t know.
11
SPEAKER_01
I m telling you what I think.
11
SPEAKER_02
I know, but okay.
11
SPEAKER_01
I m not allowed to think that.
11
SPEAKER_02
But we don t know, what s the point?
11
SPEAKER_01
Well, I could start calling some black people and say, like, if you saw a guy with dreadlocks, would you be upset?
11
SPEAKER_01
I could start, I could do that, but it s my opinion with the black friends I have that I can t imagine they d get upset or offended or think they were under attack if they saw someone, a white guy with dreadlocks.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02
I don t know.
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SPEAKER_01
I don t think they re that fragile.
11
SPEAKER_02
I don t think it s fragile to
11
SPEAKER_01
be offended by a hairdo?
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, when it s connected to a whole bunch of other stuff that s extrapolating it in such a specific way to just call it a hairdo.
11
SPEAKER_02
Hair in the black community is not, it s not like Indian hair.
11
SPEAKER_02
It s very specific and it has been used against them a lot.
11
SPEAKER_02
And there s not products for them and there s not, there s a lot, it s a lot there.
11
SPEAKER_02
It s not just as simple as like, I like the way this looks.
11
SPEAKER_02
So I think people can do it if they want to do it, but I m going to see it and think they made a choice.
11
SPEAKER_02
And I m not going to say like, you re bad because of it, but I m going to notice it.
11
SPEAKER_02
Just like if you wear a headdress, I m going to notice it too.
11
SPEAKER_02
I m going to be like, huh.
11
SPEAKER_01
I think it s a zone that the far left went too far.
11
SPEAKER_01
And I think it s kind of, I think it s one of the silly ones.
11
SPEAKER_01
I think there s really legitimate ones.
11
SPEAKER_01
And I think that s a silly one.
11
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
11
SPEAKER_02
Okay, so who said, don t be humble, you re not that great.
11
SPEAKER_02
It was a female prime minister of Israel, Golda Meir, M-E-I-R.
11
SPEAKER_00
M-E-I-R.
11
SPEAKER_02
She was the fourth prime minister of Israel from 69 to 74.
11
SPEAKER_00
Do you like that quote?
11
SPEAKER_00
I love it.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it s a good one.
11
SPEAKER_02
It s a very good one.
11
SPEAKER_02
How old was Dior when he died?
11
SPEAKER_02
He was quite young.
11
SPEAKER_01
Oh, this is a ding ding ding.
11
SPEAKER_01
Last night Lincoln was telling me that they have to, they re doing a section on famous women in history and she got assigned some Olympian and then a classmate got Coco Chanel and she swapped, she horse traded.
11
SPEAKER_02
Really?
11
SPEAKER_02
Oh, that is a ding, ding, ding.
11
SPEAKER_01
So now she has Coco Chanel.
11
SPEAKER_01
Oh, cool.
11
SPEAKER_01
She s like, do you know her name was not even Coco Chanel?
11
SPEAKER_01
And she had already done some research on it.
11
SPEAKER_01
That s fun.
11
SPEAKER_02
Okay, he was 52, Dior, when he died.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, very young.
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SPEAKER_00
Especially when we just talked about the fact that I m 50-ish.
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, cutting it close.
11
SPEAKER_00
And the actor, he would have been dead two years ago.
11
SPEAKER_02
Ooh, Ben Mendelsohn.
11
SPEAKER_02
She can borrow my purse for a presentation.
11
SPEAKER_02
Presentation?
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, if she wants.
11
SPEAKER_01
Okay, talk about making a statement and being aware, socially aware.
11
SPEAKER_01
So I would be nervous about her showing up with a Chanel.
11
SPEAKER_02
Oh, bag.
11
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think it s already, she s already got to really mind her P s and Q s about being pretty privileged.
11
SPEAKER_02
I see.
11
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so I would probably advise her against that.
11
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
11
SPEAKER_01
Oh, this is a funny conundrum.
11
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
11
SPEAKER_01
So we re on the way to school today and her birthday s approaching.
11
SPEAKER_01
And I said, what do you want for your birthday, love?
11
SPEAKER_01
Is there anything you, you know, have been wanting?
11
SPEAKER_01
And she said, just, I guess, some Taylor Swift stuff.
11
SPEAKER_01
She goes, but I don t really want anything.
11
SPEAKER_01
I d rather maybe have an experience if you want to, like, gift me an experience.
11
SPEAKER_02
That s great.
11
SPEAKER_01
Which already I love.
11
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
11
SPEAKER_01
42 years to learn that experiences are better than objects.
11
SPEAKER_01
I m still not even there.
11
SPEAKER_01
I still look at cars.
11
SPEAKER_01
I still love items.
11
SPEAKER_01
But I m aspiring to just ask for an experience for a birthday at that age.
11
SPEAKER_01
I like that.
11
SPEAKER_02
Me too.
11
SPEAKER_01
And then just last night we were laying in bed and she said,
11
SPEAKER_01
that Taylor s concert is going all the way through 2024 in Europe.
11
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, ooh, I wonder how much it ll make.
11
SPEAKER_01
So then we looked it up.
11
SPEAKER_01
And then, so it s projected to make a billion.
11
SPEAKER_01
So coupled with last year, so that tour will have made $2 billion, which is incredible.
11
SPEAKER_01
Like it s conceivable this woman could amass like $30 billion.
11
SPEAKER_01
It ll be interesting to see if they hate that billionaire, but that s a side.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, we ve talked about a little bit on Saint.
11
SPEAKER_01
Oh, do you?
11
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, like what s the tipping point?
11
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_01
But anyways, so she says this on the ride to school.
11
SPEAKER_01
And then, of course, I was like, you know, could I find four days off, get tickets in another country?
12
SPEAKER_01
and gift her that experience for her birthday.
12
SPEAKER_00
Well, Ana and I literally just talked about this last night.
12
SPEAKER_00
We were looking at your schedule.
12
SPEAKER_00
We were trying to figure out, because we really want to go to London to see it.
12
SPEAKER_01
Ah, London.
12
SPEAKER_00
But it doesn t match up with your dates.
12
SPEAKER_00
But if you guys are gonna go, then that would be great for us.
12
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so I m like, so now the big quandary starts.
12
SPEAKER_01
Mind you, I don t say any of this out loud, thank God.
12
SPEAKER_01
But I m like, is that too much?
12
SPEAKER_01
Should a kid get a trip to Europe to see Taylor Swift?
12
SPEAKER_01
Like what impact does that have on her?
12
SPEAKER_01
Shouldn t there still be things she wants to do?
12
SPEAKER_01
I don t wanna give her everything before she s an adult.
12
SPEAKER_01
Fucking God forbid she tells someone at school she flew to fucking...
12
SPEAKER_01
clone Germany to see Taylor Swift.
12
SPEAKER_01
I would hate that kid.
12
SPEAKER_01
Every kid would hate that kid.
12
SPEAKER_00
It would have to be, you d have to make it like, if we went to London, then it s like, we re there for like some days.
12
SPEAKER_00
We could go for work.
12
SPEAKER_00
We could go for work and then make it all worth it.
12
SPEAKER_00
That would be not a bad idea.
12
SPEAKER_00
But also then it s like a family trip and then that happens to be a day.
12
SPEAKER_01
Yes, yes, yes.
12
SPEAKER_00
There s a way to cloud it.
12
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, if you re going just... Well, I was being realistic about my schedule and her school schedule, which is like the odds of me taking a week off when I already have a bunch of shit already on the calendar, it seems very unlikely.
12
SPEAKER_01
So it seems more like we would fly directly to a place, be there for two days, see Taylor Swift.
12
SPEAKER_01
By the way, it d just be me and her.
12
SPEAKER_01
Mom already went with her in LA, so I would want to go and not make a big thing out of it.
12
SPEAKER_01
But again, I sincerely don t know what the right call is.
12
SPEAKER_01
I m leaning towards not.
12
SPEAKER_01
Which is weird, because I could do it, and it d be really, really fun for both of us.
12
SPEAKER_01
And then what if we died in a meteor shower in two years, and I was worrying about what impact this would have on her as an adult.
12
SPEAKER_00
Oh, but then you could have died because of that.
12
SPEAKER_01
Could die en route.
12
SPEAKER_01
And people would be like those people that went down in the submarine.
12
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
12
SPEAKER_01
They deserved it.
12
SPEAKER_01
Who would spend that kind of money to go see Taylor Swift in Homburg?
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
12
SPEAKER_00
I don t know what the answer is Yeah, it s more like she s going on a trip with her dad that s what I think yeah, I don t need to see Taylor I want to share
12
SPEAKER_01
that with my daughter.
12
SPEAKER_00
Right.
12
SPEAKER_01
TBD.
12
SPEAKER_00
I think we should just go to London.
12
SPEAKER_01
Thank God she doesn t listen to the podcast.
12
SPEAKER_01
Thank God.
12
SPEAKER_00
And that would be your pick.
12
SPEAKER_01
You ve gone to London so much.
12
SPEAKER_01
Wouldn t you want to go to a different city to see her?
12
SPEAKER_00
Well, she s also going to be in Milan while you guys are gone.
12
SPEAKER_00
So we ve talked about that as well.
12
SPEAKER_01
Oh, Milan Rouge.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
12
SPEAKER_00
I don t know, I just fucking, I love London.
12
SPEAKER_00
I love it so much.
12
SPEAKER_00
And then like maybe pop over to Paris.
12
SPEAKER_00
Would you live there?
12
SPEAKER_00
Do you think you could live there?
12
SPEAKER_00
No, I can only live here.
12
SPEAKER_01
Oh, okay.
12
SPEAKER_01
Because of the sunshine?
12
SPEAKER_00
I don t know why.
12
SPEAKER_00
I mean, it s currently gloomy.
12
SPEAKER_01
It is.
12
SPEAKER_01
We re expecting rain here at four o clock.
12
SPEAKER_00
I love other places.
12
SPEAKER_00
I love visiting, but I like living here.
12
Yeah.
12
SPEAKER_01
It s a good place.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it is.
12
SPEAKER_00
It was funny though because we landed on Saturday, I walked to the bookstore, which I think I talked about, and this unwell person was like- Hold on a second, what if that s how it evolved?
12
SPEAKER_01
It went homeless, unhoused, and then just unwell.
12
SPEAKER_00
I don t know if he was unhoused.
12
SPEAKER_00
At all.
12
SPEAKER_01
He was- He was unwell.
12
SPEAKER_00
It was hard to tell.
12
SPEAKER_00
He was definitely unwell because he was screaming at me.
12
SPEAKER_00
And I was walking down the street and he was just like in my face screaming at me on Vermont.
12
SPEAKER_00
And it was really uncomfortable.
12
SPEAKER_01
What was he screaming?
12
SPEAKER_00
I had headphones in and I was trying to just like look down and not make eye contact.
12
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
12
SPEAKER_00
So I don t know.
12
SPEAKER_01
But- God knows.
12
SPEAKER_01
What if he had shit in your bathing suit?
12
Oh.
12
SPEAKER_00
That s an Easter egg.
12
SPEAKER_01
That s an Easter egg.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
12
SPEAKER_00
Anyway, we just have-
12
SPEAKER_00
A lot of issues.
12
SPEAKER_01
He interacts with a lot of unwell folks.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s just funny, because we had just come from India, right, where there s so much poverty and there s a lot going on, and there s chaos.
12
SPEAKER_00
Well, there are, but.
12
SPEAKER_01
I m saying we didn t see.
12
SPEAKER_00
But no one was doing that to us there.
12
SPEAKER_01
That s a little bit of the point I was making, which is like, I don t know.
12
SPEAKER_01
I don t have pity, and I don t have.
12
SPEAKER_00
Oh, no, I know.
12
SPEAKER_01
And I don t know that we have it better.
12
SPEAKER_00
I agree, I totally agree.
12
SPEAKER_01
Because that s one metric you look at.
12
SPEAKER_01
It s like, yeah, there weren t a bunch of
12
SPEAKER_01
completely drugged out, zombies crawling all over the sidewalk and screaming and fighting bird scooters there.
12
SPEAKER_01
We didn t see that.
12
SPEAKER_00
Well, remember, I even, I brought this up to Bill and you where, when we were in the revitalized slum, I was shocked at how there was no drug use.
12
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, there was no apparent drug use.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and if that were here- We did ask him though, you remember?
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and he said drugs aren t really an issue.
12
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and the penalties for drugs are insanely high.
12
SPEAKER_00
But he was like, no one has that issue like the United States.
12
SPEAKER_01
Right, also the money, like the world market.
12
SPEAKER_01
You can only get cocaine so cheaply over to India.
12
SPEAKER_00
But it was just so interesting because if that were here and people are like in that environment, I mean.
12
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, but they did say they had an alcohol problem, but we, again, like I saw,
12
SPEAKER_01
When I was in St.
12
SPEAKER_01
Petersburg in 1999, which I guess at that point is only eight years, nine years after the fall of the USSR, we were driving in the morning to go see Catherine s Palace, and there were hundreds and hundreds of men on the sidewalk at like 9 a.m.
12
SPEAKER_01
drinking out of vodka bottles, and they were blitzed.
12
SPEAKER_01
It was like,
12
SPEAKER_01
our drug issue, but it was just with alcohol.
12
SPEAKER_01
And there s just guys leaning on every corner of everything, just pounding vodka.
12
SPEAKER_01
So obviously India s drinking problem isn t what St.
12
SPEAKER_01
Petersburg was in 1999.
12
SPEAKER_01
Interesting.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s just all specific to the place.
12
SPEAKER_00
But anyhow, that man yelled at me.
12
SPEAKER_01
Oh, sorry.
12
SPEAKER_00
And that s all.
12
SPEAKER_01
All right, love you.
12
SPEAKER_00
Love you.
12
you