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The Therapy for Black Girls podcast is your space to explore mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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I m your host, Dr. Joy Harden-Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, and I can t wait for you to join the conversation every Wednesday.
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Something that makes me crazy is when people say, well, I had this career before, but it was a waste.
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I lost myself.
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It was me against everyone else in the music industry.
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The best-selling author and host.
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The number one health and wellness podcast.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty.
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Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world.
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Thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to listen, learn, and grow.
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Now one of my favorite things about this platform is I get to sit down with friends who are changemakers, incredible influencers, doing amazing things in the world, but I have this behind-the-scenes friendship with them.
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I get to hang with them, I get to invite you all into a genuine, truthful conversation, a sincere conversation that we probably have had at dinners and when we re hanging out, but then we get to record it and share it with all of you.
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And today s guest is someone that I was a fan of ever since I was in my teens.
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I remember when his first song that I discovered him through dropped.
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and it literally felt like it changed culture for me and my friends and we knew what we wanted to play we knew what we wanted to listen to we were sharing it with all our friends and to watch his career from afar rise in the way that it did and the changes that he s made the moves that he s made was phenomenal
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for little jay aged 14 and and beyond there i m speaking about british indian singer songwriter jay shawn who emerged in the american pop music scene a decade ago with his billboard hot 100 number one single down
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The pop music titan changed the game stateside for both Asian and UK acts alike, hitting historical strides and breaking down multiple doors as a solo artist.
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Jay was the first Asian artist in history to have a Billboard number one in America.
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He was also the first Asian and first British artist to have two simultaneous top 10 Billboard singles.
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Jay s also the first British and first Asian artist to have a Spanish language number one in America.
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Welcome to the show, my good friend.
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and amazing human, Jay Sean.
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Bro, wow.
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Thank you, man.
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What a beautiful introduction.
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I mean it, dude.
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I love that, man.
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It s great to be here, brother.
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It s so good to have you here, man.
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And obviously, I met you.
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So for everyone who doesn t know, and you probably don t know this, I met Jay the first week I moved.
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When I say Jay also, I m now talking about Jay Sean, not referring to myself.
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The first time I met you was the first week I moved to LA.
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Wow.
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Because I met Jeremy, who you ve been working with for a long time.
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I love you, Jeremy.
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And Jeremy introduced us.
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And this was in 2018.
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And I loved how genuine you were, how down to earth you were.
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Like, it was so easy to chat to you.
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Like, we hit it off right away.
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And I wish you lived in LA still so we could hang out all the time.
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I know, bro, I know.
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We keep talking about that, right?
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But no, it is.
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It s so lovely to be here with you, bro.
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So proud of you and what you ve done.
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You know what I mean?
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I know that you have guests on and it s about them, but you know, what you ve been doing, I ve been watching everything.
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Amazing.
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Makes me proud.
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And, you know, obviously we re both from England, you know, both from, what part of London were you from?
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North London.
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North London.
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Okay.
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So I was West London, obviously Hounslow.
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Southhill, of course, first.
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Standard.
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As cliche as it gets for any Indian.
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But, you know, it s not easy, right?
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Having these lofty dreams, you know, and then being here in LA, which is literally the land of dreams.
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And broken dreams, let s be honest about that.
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There s people who have goals, but there s also broken dreams.
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So to be able to do what you re doing and what I m doing, it s really beautiful.
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So yeah, thank you for having me, man.
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Yeah, man.
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Let s start there because I think I find it really interesting.
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At one point in my life, I think I had big dreams when I was a teenager, but I never actually believed the dreams could be real because I didn t have role models, people I could see doing those things.
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Did you always have big dreams and a belief that your life could go down that way?
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You know, bro, the one thing about me ever since I was a kid, I always wanted to, A, work my hardest, try my hardest and apply myself.
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I ve been a very driven person ever since I was a kid, and I think really, and so is my brother.
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I have one brother, Nirup, and I think both of us have that.
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We share that same quality.
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We re very, very highly driven people.
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Now, that comes solely from my parents.
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It really does.
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My dad is a big, big dreamer.
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Big dreamer, bro.
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And I only found out recently, like when I started going into music and my brother went into film, that these were also my dad s dreams, but they were hidden.
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My dad always, you know, my dad used to write poetry and nobody ever knew it, but he ended up being a businessman and a very successful businessman.
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But seeing my dad s drive, and my mom is super hardworking as well, we were always inspired by that.
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Like, wow, like, how did dad do this?
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He had three factories, they used to manufacture denim, they were like, you know, Top Man and River Island, all these places, they used to make all the jeans.
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And it came from nothing, it came from just a vision.
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So that was them, but then also they put us into a private school.
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Now, private school in England, as you know, it costs a lot of money.
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Now, I could have gone to a school in the area that I lived in, Hounslow, but it wasn t the most affluent area at the time.
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It wasn t the best school system at the time.
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So my parents wanted to be able to put us into an education system where they felt like we could excel.
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And so they did, but that was a sacrifice.
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They didn t get to go on holidays every summer and go to Barbados and that money they invested into me and my brother.
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And I think because I saw that sacrifice, we always wanted to work hard.
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So we knew what they were doing, it was for us.
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But the school that we went to was, I think, and Latimer Upper School, I have to shout them out, because an incredible school, because not only did you have to be smart to get in, so you had smart kids, but they weren t like, oh, stuffy, I go to Latimer and I don t do anything fun.
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No, it was creative.
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They were fun.
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We had so much of a laugh and it was an all boys school.
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And the reason I m telling you that is we weren t getting dressed up during the day to impress girls.
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I wasn t doing my hair to impress girls.
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So how did you make friends?
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How did you become the popular one?
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Everyone was smart.
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You had to have something.
1
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You had to either be the funny guy or you had to be the athletic dude, or you had to be like the captain of the football team.
1
SPEAKER_00
So everybody excelled in a competitive way, but like in a nice friendly competitive manner.
1
SPEAKER_00
So that has always been my nature to do well and to apply myself to whatever I do.
1
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And I think I ve been like that my whole life.
1
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That s why I always, you know, I m always doing different stuff, picking up different projects because if this is all we got, bro,
1
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you know, why not make the most of it?
1
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Do the things you enjoy and try to see how far you can get with them.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, definitely.
1
SPEAKER_01
What was it like having those conversations with your parents in those early days?
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
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Because we ve talked about a million times and every Indian has that pressure.
1
SPEAKER_01
Of course.
1
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You know, the other night I was at an event and it was the same thing where like Indian parents are talking about this idea of just like doctor, lawyer, engineer.
1
SPEAKER_01
We ve heard it a million times, but you were on that path.
1
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You were on that path to make your parents the proudest Indian parents of all time.
1
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And I think there are a lot of people who listen to this and even if they don t have an Indian upbringing, they may have an upbringing where their parents  expectations mean something.
1
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely.
1
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And their parents  expectations are important to them because they love their parents and they see their sacrifice.
1
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A lot of people who are listening may be thinking, my parents worked so hard, I look ungrateful if I follow my dreams.
1
SPEAKER_01
What was that like?
1
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
1
SPEAKER_00
Listen, that s such a good point, Jay, because I, of course, I get asked that question a lot, right?
1
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Like, and some people might not know.
1
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You re right.
1
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I was on my path to being a doctor.
1
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It s not just necessarily an Asian thing.
1
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We can really break this down because as a parent now myself, I understand what it s like to want the best for your kids.
1
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You want them not to struggle.
1
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You want them to have a profession.
1
SPEAKER_00
You don t want them to be like, oh, yeah, you know, have this dream.
1
SPEAKER_00
I want to be an art painter and this and you re like, that s great.
1
SPEAKER_00
I love that.
1
SPEAKER_00
But I also don t want you to struggle for money.
1
SPEAKER_00
So you don t have to be an Asian parent to want your kids to do well in school job.
1
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But the Asian thing, the reason it s a stereotype, I think personally, is because we were immigrants.
1
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So therefore, you couldn t come with a dream.
1
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You couldn t come on a ship from India, come to England and go, hmm, I want to be a professional gymnast.
1
SPEAKER_00
They d be like, what?
1
SPEAKER_00
Shut up, bro.
1
SPEAKER_00
You just left the bend.
1
SPEAKER_00
You ve left the village.
1
SPEAKER_00
You need to earn money.
1
SPEAKER_00
So our grandparents didn t get to have a lofty dream.
1
SPEAKER_00
They just had to work hard.
1
SPEAKER_00
They had to work two jobs sometimes, three jobs to put food on the table.
1
SPEAKER_00
So then therefore that also gets passed down to their kids.
1
SPEAKER_00
But with my particular situation...
1
SPEAKER_00
The medicine wasn t my parents  dream for me.
1
SPEAKER_00
It was actually mine.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was a super nerd in school, bro.
1
SPEAKER_00
I loved getting straight eight grades.
1
SPEAKER_00
I loved working hard and then seeing the fruits of my labor.
1
SPEAKER_00
So when I used to get those top grades, it made me feel like I d achieved something.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it wasn t like, oh, mom and dad will be happy.
1
SPEAKER_00
I knew they d be happy as well, but it was like, I m happy for myself.
1
SPEAKER_00
I worked hard for this.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right?
1
SPEAKER_00
So I actually got fascinated with science.
1
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I still am.
1
SPEAKER_00
Completely and utterly fascinated with the human mind and the human body.
1
SPEAKER_00
So before I did medicine, actually, bro, I actually, not many people know this.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think you might be the first person who knows this.
1
SPEAKER_00
I actually did a degree, a combined science degree in psychology and biology.
1
SPEAKER_01
I didn t know that, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I did a degree in psychology and biology, Bachelor of Science.
1
SPEAKER_00
I fully enjoyed it.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then I was thinking I m going to go on to perhaps become a psychologist or a psychiatrist.
1
SPEAKER_00
I wanted to help people.
1
SPEAKER_00
I wanted to get in.
1
SPEAKER_00
That was always been my thing.
1
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Ended up applying for medicine and did two years of medicine.
1
SPEAKER_00
But like anybody, you have hobbies.
1
SPEAKER_00
My hobby was music.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I was probably about 12 or 13 years old when I got obsessed with hip hop.
1
SPEAKER_00
I couldn t give it up.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was writing raps at the age of 13 because I was watching
1
SPEAKER_00
these rappers from, do you remember, I don t know if you remember this, I m gonna show my age here.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yo!
1
SPEAKER_00
MTV Raps, okay, used to be, cause in England, growing up in England, we didn t have access to, A, of course we didn t have the internet back then, we didn t have access to all of these hip hop shows.
1
SPEAKER_00
So we had this cable show on MTV and it would come on and it was called Yo!
1
SPEAKER_00
MTV Raps with Ed Lover and Dr. Dre.
1
SPEAKER_01
I had MTV Base with Trevor Nelson.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
1
SPEAKER_01
And Westwood.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, Westwood, all of that.
1
SPEAKER_00
Obviously, I m going completely off topic here.
1
SPEAKER_00
Do it, I want you to.
1
SPEAKER_00
But yeah, like point being, you know, the applying yourself and the working hard and all that stuff, it was anything I took an interest in, I would take it to the extreme.
1
SPEAKER_00
So science, work, academia, interested in it, want to do well, took it to the extreme.
1
SPEAKER_00
Let s go.
1
SPEAKER_00
One degree.
1
SPEAKER_00
All right.
1
SPEAKER_00
No, but I want to do this too.
1
SPEAKER_00
And in my head, there was nothing saying you can t do that.
1
SPEAKER_00
There was nothing saying you done your degree, bro.
1
SPEAKER_00
Chill now, go get a job.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was like, no, but I m also want to do this.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think I ve always been like that my whole life.
1
SPEAKER_00
So there I am studying medicine, but I also want to, for some weird reason, go on stage and rap.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I was a rapper then.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
I wasn t a singer.
1
SPEAKER_00
Anyway, so I ve always been juggling, bro.
1
SPEAKER_00
I ve always been juggling things that I m passionate about.
1
SPEAKER_01
What s been something that you think you ve taken to the extreme more recently?
1
SPEAKER_01
Or is that mindset still there or has that changed as time s gone on?
1
SPEAKER_00
So it s not necessarily taking things to an extreme recently, but I have really been interested in being the entrepreneur side of the entertainment industry.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it s for a number of reasons, okay?
1
SPEAKER_00
First of all, being an artist, this is going to like next year is going to be 20 years of me being an artist.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s amazing.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it s, and it s cool, but it doesn t have to be everything I do for the rest of my life.
1
SPEAKER_00
I ve been so blessed to be able to do music.
1
SPEAKER_00
Literally, if you think about my job, I write songs, then I sing songs and I go around the world and I travel and I try to make people happy when I m performing my music.
1
SPEAKER_00
but that doesn t mean I don t have other interests.
1
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t mean that I m like, for example, I love restaurants and bars.
1
SPEAKER_00
I love them.
1
SPEAKER_00
Anytime I go to a different city, first thing I do, either before or after my show, where can we go?
1
SPEAKER_00
Where do the locals go and eat?
1
SPEAKER_00
What s the local cuisine here?
1
SPEAKER_00
Where should I go and sample this city so that I can get to say, I went to Milan and I knew what that felt like.
1
SPEAKER_00
So then I was like, my dream was always like, I want my own restaurant.
1
SPEAKER_00
I want my own bar.
1
SPEAKER_00
So then I did that, you know, we set up an Indian restaurant called Nama and a bar called Switch.
1
SPEAKER_00
And that was fun because it allowed me to use a different side of my brain space.
1
SPEAKER_00
And all of a sudden now making entrepreneurial decisions.
1
SPEAKER_00
which I never really got to do through music because it s a different field.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I like, so, you know, and we have the yoga studio that, you know, my wife Tara owns and runs.
1
SPEAKER_00
So all of these things keep life interesting for me.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think that s the thing that I want to do as much as I can and enjoy it and see where I can take it.
1
SPEAKER_00
But it doesn t mean you try to do everything because you don t want to be a jack of all trades, master of none.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s just what fills me.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so that, you know, I think that the recently that it s been the entrepreneurial stuff.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that s awesome.
1
SPEAKER_01
What has been like, you spoke about earlier, like breaking that stereotype of it s not only, you know, Asian families want their kids to like, you know, be taken care of and do well in the music industry.
1
SPEAKER_01
Walk me through what that was like, because I think even as a British Indian and an Asian, South Asian person, I don t think
1
SPEAKER_01
we necessarily know what it was like, because I think when you grow up in England, especially in London and around, I mean, to be honest, all across England, Indian culture is very accessible.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, of course.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s normalized, it s everywhere.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
And then coming to the US, I don t believe when you did that, it was like that, as far as I know.
1
SPEAKER_01
And what did you feel you were working with?
1
SPEAKER_01
What were you excited about?
1
SPEAKER_01
What did you come up against that you were trying to make sense of?
1
SPEAKER_01
Because I think there s a lot of people, even right now, I think everyone in different cultures, different traditions, different trajectories has to face some form of resistance, some form of stereotype, some form of opposition.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I ve always appreciated your way of navigating these things because I don t think you look at it as like, oh my God, everyone s against me.
1
SPEAKER_01
I don t think you lived life that way.
1
SPEAKER_01
Walk us through what goes through your mind.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, of course, man.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I guess we should really just take it right back to the beginning.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right.
1
SPEAKER_00
So to answer that question, you know, I m there.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m a student.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m a medical student.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m obsessed with hip hop still.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m obsessed with music.
1
SPEAKER_00
My love for hip hop would also like then gone into R&B as well because they were sort of hand in hand by then.
1
SPEAKER_00
The good times.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
I just saw Usher live in Vegas.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, did you again?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s you know, it s again.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh my god, the brothers so much that we can talk about about these things because you say that and he took you back to a he literally transported you back to a period of your life.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, which I 16 and what do we what were the stresses when we were 16 nothing passing our exams.
1
SPEAKER_00
Doing well in our GCSEs.
1
SPEAKER_00
Everything else was childhood.
1
SPEAKER_00
It was big dreams.
1
SPEAKER_00
You re fearless.
1
SPEAKER_00
You can take on the world.
1
SPEAKER_00
You want to do anything.
2
SPEAKER_00
anything and everything, and life was just good.
2
SPEAKER_00
Music was great then, just, you know, vibes were there, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
And that s what I was experiencing.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was listening to, you know, all of that same kind of stuff, Usher and, you know, and Jagged Edge and Blackstreet and all that stuff.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I used to think to myself, every time we went out and we d go out clubbing with my friends and stuff, it would always be, especially in London as you know this, quite a heavy Indian demographic, or I should say, just like a, you know, an Asian demographic.
2
SPEAKER_00
What we call Asian in England, they call South Asian here.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Tons of us in all these clubs, we d go to concerts.
2
SPEAKER_00
I d go and see Fugees in concert, or I d go and see, you know, Das FX.
2
SPEAKER_00
I d go and see Lords of the Underground.
2
SPEAKER_00
All of these people, still a bunch of Asians there.
2
SPEAKER_00
And at that time I had started writing and, you know, I had a friend of mine who s a DJ and we used to make these mixtapes, me and my cousin, and we used to make mixtapes just for our own fun.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then our friends would be like, actually, that s pretty sick.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, can you make me a copy?
2
SPEAKER_00
Fine, we gave him a copy.
2
SPEAKER_00
and all of a sudden it was kind of spreading around school and then that chubby, nerdy Indian kid became cool all of a sudden in school.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that felt nice, but that was just in school.
2
SPEAKER_00
It wasn t happening on a major level anywhere.
2
SPEAKER_00
There was no Asian mainstream artist on stage that we could go and watch who would sing or rap
2
SPEAKER_00
the music that we love.
2
SPEAKER_00
So we would go there and I m like, I d be at an Usher concert and I m watching him and I m watching tons of Asians scream for Usher and I m there, I m in the mosh pit.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I m going, why isn t one of us up there?
2
SPEAKER_00
We clearly love this music.
2
SPEAKER_00
If we can listen to this music and we can buy this music, why can t we make this music?
2
SPEAKER_00
Why can t we be the one up there on stage?
2
SPEAKER_00
And I think when that click switched for me,
2
SPEAKER_00
That changed everything because again, talking about how I just thought nothing was impossible.
2
SPEAKER_00
I said, well, I m going to do that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Why can t I?
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
How do I do that?
2
SPEAKER_00
All right.
2
SPEAKER_00
I ll enter talent competitions.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I did.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I m simultaneously studying, but then I ll be listening to choice FM at the time.
2
SPEAKER_00
It was choice.
2
SPEAKER_00
I love choice.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Back in the year.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_01
107.1 or something like that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Something like that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
96.9.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think it was.
2
96.9.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think it was both.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think it was one of those ones.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
2
SPEAKER_00
So anyway, I ll be listening to Choice FM and there was this talent competition and it was called Commander B s Night Flight, okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s around about midnight and all you have to do, you have to pick up the phone, spit your best verse or sing.
2
SPEAKER_00
At the time I was just a rapper, right, I was obsessed with hip-hop.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I said, all right, what have I got to lose?
2
SPEAKER_00
Picked up the phone, dropped a little rhyme.
2
SPEAKER_00
You either get flushed, you got the toilet flush sound, or you get passed on to the next round.
2
SPEAKER_00
I got through.
2
SPEAKER_00
Eventually they chose the top 100 in the country.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then that 100 was put down to, was cut down to the final 20.
2
SPEAKER_00
Then the final 20 had to perform live in Brixton Academy.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
That was my first time on stage ever.
2
SPEAKER_00
And when I looked around, Jay, I m not lying to you.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was the only, only non-black, non-white person in that room.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I didn t think about it at the time because you re not going, you re not, you re not looking at that.
2
SPEAKER_00
You just got the mic in your hand and you ve got an opportunity and you re going, this is amazing.
2
SPEAKER_00
How did I even get here?
2
SPEAKER_00
This is so fun.
2
SPEAKER_00
It was fun.
2
SPEAKER_00
But now looking back, I was like, I was the only Asian kid and it didn t scare me.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so therefore, you know, I just did what I loved and I did it without fear.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I ended up coming third in the whole competition.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that s what gave me the confidence to know that I can, I think I can take this somewhere.
2
SPEAKER_01
How did you have that courage and guts at that age?
2
SPEAKER_01
And I guess it s part of that extreme focus mentality, but like,
2
SPEAKER_01
I feel like today I have so many people in my life that I know that are scared of posting on TikTok or posting on Instagram or putting out like for you to like drop that verse on a phone call you know other people are going to hear it other people are going to find out about it when you re on stage of course you re laid bare in front of all the audience
2
SPEAKER_01
I think so many people today get in their heads and they re like well I can t post that I look stupid or I can t do that I m not good enough and even people who are really talented stop themselves from putting things out there because they re scared of what their friends will say.
2
SPEAKER_01
I remember when I posted my first video
2
SPEAKER_01
It was the people closest to me that criticized it or ridiculed it.
2
SPEAKER_01
It wasn t the audience.
2
SPEAKER_01
The audience actually responded fairly well for day one.
2
SPEAKER_01
But it was the people around me that said, Jay, you talk too fast.
2
SPEAKER_01
Jay, that point didn t make sense.
2
SPEAKER_01
Jay, your editing is not as good as it should be.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like that was coming from people I knew, whereas the comments were like, oh, I love this.
2
SPEAKER_01
I just shared this with a friend.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so I feel so many people have that block.
2
SPEAKER_01
What was it for you that gave you that courage to say, this is fun.
2
SPEAKER_01
I love the idea of this is fun.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m doing what I love and I actually don t care.
2
SPEAKER_01
How did you have that then?
2
SPEAKER_00
I didn t care.
2
SPEAKER_00
And you re right.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know the reason why I didn t care back then?
2
SPEAKER_00
Because in order to find out somebody s opinion, they had to actually be in front of you and talk to you about it in person.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Now we live in a day and age where we ve got connection with every single human being on the planet.
2
SPEAKER_00
We re not built like that, bro.
2
SPEAKER_00
Our brains are not built to have that many connections with that many people.
2
SPEAKER_00
We re just not built like that.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s why we get anxiety.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s why we get, because we know that I post this, it s going to go out to the world.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then 99.9% of the people who react are people I don t know.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I have to take their criticism on board, but we weren t built to be able to deal with that.
2
SPEAKER_00
We just not designed to be able to deal with that much.
2
SPEAKER_00
So therefore, of course, it overwhelms us.
2
SPEAKER_00
Of course, it gives us anxiety.
2
SPEAKER_00
Of course, we get depressed because user Z1599 said this about me.
2
SPEAKER_00
But we don t know that person.
2
SPEAKER_00
So when I was a kid, I just did what I did because I didn t have the opinions of too many people around me.
2
SPEAKER_00
And even if I did, like you said, and that s another great point, often the people who are around you might not have the courage to take a step out of the comfort zone like you did or I did.
2
SPEAKER_00
So therefore, they re just like, oh no, bro.
2
SPEAKER_00
Or maybe it s love.
2
SPEAKER_00
Maybe they re just like, I don t want you to be sad if someone says something about you.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t want you to be hurt if it doesn t work out.
2
SPEAKER_00
I just loved it.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s the only, that s the only truth of it all is when I tell you that it was an obsession, Jay.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was obsessed with hip-hop and R&B, but like not just the culture, the technique, okay?
2
SPEAKER_00
So if I was to really break it down, obsessed with the fast rappers of that time.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s what it was.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was obsessed with Big L. I was obsessed with Chip-Fu from Foo Shtickens.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was obsessed with Jay-Z, with Original Flavor.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the way that they would rhyme, it was very, very fast.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that to me was just so cool at the age of 14.
2
SPEAKER_00
How are you rapping that fast?
2
SPEAKER_00
So I would emulate it and I would try to do what they were doing.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was like, damn, how did they do that?
2
SPEAKER_00
So it became like this nerdy obsession.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then when it came to singers, it was vocalists.
2
SPEAKER_00
How are you singing like that?
2
SPEAKER_00
How are you doing those runs?
2
SPEAKER_00
How are you doing those riffs?
2
SPEAKER_00
So I would study them.
2
SPEAKER_00
I would study Boyz II Men.
2
SPEAKER_00
I would study all these guys and copy their riffs and copy.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that s how I sort of learned how to rap and how to sing by literally just admiring these people who had such a great skill set.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so therefore, when I learned how to do it for myself, of course I wanted to just go and have a go at it.
2
SPEAKER_00
So why not go up there and have a go?
2
SPEAKER_00
And it wasn t because the end goal was going to be a record deal.
2
SPEAKER_00
I didn t know.
2
SPEAKER_00
I wasn t thinking that far ahead.
2
SPEAKER_00
The end goal was, I love doing this.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you love football, you want to kick a football around.
2
SPEAKER_00
You don t want to just do it in your back garden.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you get a chance to play on a big pitch, are you not going to go?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, right.
2
SPEAKER_01
I love that.
2
SPEAKER_01
The simplicity of that answer is beautiful because I do think that it is love that carries you through.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I think today it s almost the opposite.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s the inverse, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
So at that time we didn t have a lot of role models or people that look like you or people like you that had made it.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I don t just mean that by
2
SPEAKER_01
race and gender and back, I just mean in general, in life fame and success and careers like that were reserved for a few.
2
SPEAKER_01
There were only a finite number of TV channels, finite number of music artists, finite number of actors, all very mysterious and unreachable and you never knew how they got there.
2
SPEAKER_01
Today we live in the opposite where it s like all your friends are influencers, everyone has a hundred... To whom your friends are famous.
2
SPEAKER_01
Everyone s doing something interesting, you know someone in your family or network who s figured something out, like people are running businesses, there s entrepreneurs here, there s this and that, someone has a podcast, whatever.
2
SPEAKER_01
So now it s almost the inverse where it s like now you see it happening so much that now you think
2
SPEAKER_01
It has to work out that way.
2
SPEAKER_01
So that time you just said, I never believed, I never even thought about a record deal.
2
SPEAKER_01
Now when you start making music, all you think about is a record deal because it does feel within reach or it does feel like someone else did it.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I fully agree with you.
2
SPEAKER_01
When I put out my first video, all I thought was, I love sharing this wisdom.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m tired of just sharing it in small rooms of five people.
3
SPEAKER_03
the wisdom should reach more people and I m just trying to see if it works but there wasn t there wasn t a goal or a strategy or a whole approach like one day it s gonna be this and we re gonna have this and we re gonna build a media empire like it wasn t like that it was just I love this and I actually don t know what else to do with this apart from try and share it.
3
SPEAKER_00
The Therapy for Black Girls podcast is an NAACP and Webby Award winning podcast dedicated to all things mental health, personal development, and all of the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
3
SPEAKER_00
Here, we have the conversations that help black women decipher how their past inform who they are today.
3
SPEAKER_00
and use that information to decide who they want to be moving forward.
3
SPEAKER_00
We chat about things like how to establish routines that center self-care, what burnout looks and feels like, and defining what aspects of our lives are making us happy and what parts are holding us back.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m your host, Dr. Joy Harden-Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I can t wait for you to join the conversation every Wednesday.
3
SPEAKER_00
Listen to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
3
SPEAKER_00
Take good care, and we ll see you there.
3
SPEAKER_01
Something that makes me crazy is when people say, well, I had this career before, but it was a waste.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that s where the perspective shift comes.
3
SPEAKER_01
That it s not a waste, that everything you ve done has built you to where you are now.
3
SPEAKER_01
This is She Pivots.
3
SPEAKER_01
the podcast where we explore the inspiring pivots women have made and dig deeper into the personal reasons behind them.
3
SPEAKER_01
Join me, Emily Tish Sussman, every Wednesday on She Pivots, as I sit down with inspiring women like Misty Copeland, Brooke Shields, Vanessa Hudgens, and so many more.
3
SPEAKER_01
We dive into how these women made their pivot and their mindset shifts that happened as a result.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s a podcast about women, their stories, and how their pivot became their success.
3
SPEAKER_01
Listen to She Pivots on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
3
SPEAKER_02
Get emotional with me, Radhi Devlukia, in my new podcast, A Really Good Cry.
3
SPEAKER_02
We re going to talk about and go through all the things that are sometimes difficult to process alone.
3
SPEAKER_02
We re going to go over how to regulate your emotions, diving deep into holistic personal development, and just building your mindset to have a happier, healthier life.
3
SPEAKER_02
We re going to be talking with some of my best friends.
3
SPEAKER_00
I didn t know we were going to go there.
3
SPEAKER_02
People that I admire.
3
SPEAKER_02
When we say listen to your body, really tune in to what s going on.
3
SPEAKER_02
Authors of books that have changed my life.
3
SPEAKER_02
Now you re talking about sympathy, which is different than empathy, right?
3
SPEAKER_02
And basically have conversations that can help us get through this crazy thing we call life.
3
SPEAKER_02
I already believe in myself.
3
SPEAKER_02
I already see myself.
3
SPEAKER_02
And so when people give me an opportunity, I m just like,
3
SPEAKER_02
Oh great, you see me too!
3
SPEAKER_02
We ll laugh together, we ll cry together, and find a way through all of our emotions.
3
SPEAKER_02
Never forget, it s okay to cry, as long as you make it a really good one.
3
SPEAKER_02
Listen to A Really Good Cry with Radhi Devlukia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
3
SPEAKER_04
I ve always believed one thing, right?
3
SPEAKER_04
If I operate from a place of panic, desperation, just looking around, competition, it won t work.
3
SPEAKER_04
It doesn t work for me because it s not true.
3
SPEAKER_04
It s not organic.
3
SPEAKER_04
It s not real.
3
SPEAKER_04
There is no actual substance in that product.
3
SPEAKER_04
It s hollow.
3
SPEAKER_04
It s fake and people can see it.
3
SPEAKER_04
And I really believe in that.
3
SPEAKER_04
It sounds airy-fairy, but I believe in it.
3
SPEAKER_04
I know for a fact I have made songs just chasing hits.
3
SPEAKER_04
Just like, oh, that song worked.
3
SPEAKER_04
I went so far down that road, bro, of trying to chase big pop.
3
SPEAKER_04
hits I lost myself I lost I didn t even even when I was behind the mic singing it there was no smile on my face because I knew you were writing songs for this climate and you got this guy talking in your ear hmm you need to do a song like this because so and so had a number big oh we ll get the producer who did that oh we ll write this right with the songwriter who did that I m like but I don t even like that music yeah but that s all that s working right now so you got to do it and there was no love in it and guess what my fans could tell
3
SPEAKER_04
They can tell.
3
SPEAKER_04
They re not stupid.
3
SPEAKER_04
They know.
3
SPEAKER_04
The St.
3
SPEAKER_04
J sure, man.
3
SPEAKER_04
What s he doing?
3
SPEAKER_04
I see what he s doing.
3
SPEAKER_04
It s cool.
3
SPEAKER_04
I love him, so I ll let him do it.
3
SPEAKER_04
But the St.
3
SPEAKER_04
J. It s ain t the J that we loved.
3
SPEAKER_04
It s ain t the J that we fell in love with.
3
SPEAKER_04
I see what he s doing.
3
SPEAKER_04
There s a pressure for him to do it.
3
SPEAKER_04
That s cool.
3
SPEAKER_04
We ll stand by him, but we ll wait for him to come back.
3
SPEAKER_04
He ll find his way back.
3
SPEAKER_04
as I always do.
3
SPEAKER_04
But when it s not from a place of love and it s not from a place of passion and it s not real, I feel like there s a metadata in that, that people can feel.
3
SPEAKER_04
And that s always been the story of my life.
3
SPEAKER_03
And it s great to have that connection to your audience.
3
SPEAKER_03
But when you start, obviously, like you said, I mean, I still remember when Dance With You came out, and we used to wait for it to be played on Channel U. And I m trying to think of where else, but Channel U was my place back then.
3
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, I remember Channel U.
3
SPEAKER_03
At the back in the day, this is again aging, you d have to wait for the songs you love to come on to record them on VHS.
3
SPEAKER_03
So you d record it and then you d make your own VHS music video.
3
SPEAKER_03
So then I d have Usher, you, P Diddy, Eminem, like whatever else it is and you re collecting all these people and then now whenever your mates come over you put this video in and then you play that or you re playing Channel U in the background anyway.
3
SPEAKER_03
But it s like I remember when Dance With You came out and for anyone who doesn t know it if you if you didn t know Jay before the US world like go back and see check that video out because I still think it s a Brit like it it lands even today that s how good that song is.
3
SPEAKER_03
Thank you.
3
SPEAKER_03
And and it s and I can still bump in the car and it is awesome but
3
SPEAKER_03
to me it was such a moment for the culture because it was actually good music and it was actually cool too and i think that that s hard to do as well i think it s really hard when you re like trying to do something fresh and new and you re trying to own a sound or create a sound but to actually do that is really challenging so when you re at your best most creative self as you were just describing now
3
SPEAKER_03
walk us through the more texture of that recipe of like when you re really landing in that passion that love the excitement as you said like walk us through like when you re at your peak creativity yeah and it s truly authentic yeah what does that creative process look like there s no thought and that s what i always tell people making music
3
SPEAKER_04
is not a science.
3
SPEAKER_04
There will be people who tell you, and listen, fine.
3
SPEAKER_04
Some people have had a very, very long successful career by methodically thinking, hmm, verse must be X amount of syllables, and this melody works because this chord structure worked for the last 10 years, top 10 hits, this is the chord progression, and cool.
3
SPEAKER_04
I m not built that way.
3
SPEAKER_04
That s not how I make music.
3
SPEAKER_04
Amazing.
3
SPEAKER_04
Hats off to the people who can write hits like that.
3
SPEAKER_04
That s not how I make music.
3
SPEAKER_04
I feel.
3
SPEAKER_04
I feel and I smile and I jump up and down in the studio when that song is done.
3
SPEAKER_04
And if I m feeling like that, the one thing, the rule I have is after I ve written a song,
3
SPEAKER_04
If I am not so excited, regardless of what time it is, it could be four in the morning, I could have had a 20 hour day.
3
SPEAKER_04
If I m not excited enough to go behind that mic, bro, and sing that song right there, that second, it ain t it.
3
SPEAKER_04
If I can say, ah, I ll wait till tomorrow, then that means my fans can go, ah, I ll wait till tomorrow to hear it.
3
SPEAKER_04
You understand?
3
SPEAKER_04
They have options.
3
SPEAKER_04
And the thing is, I go off of that excitement.
3
SPEAKER_04
So when Dance With You happened,
3
SPEAKER_04
I had met Rishi Rich, who really, you know, is responsible for just everything from the beginning of the genesis of my career, our work together.
3
SPEAKER_04
He heard something in me, he knew I rapped, he knew I sang.
3
SPEAKER_04
And what I had developed was a style of blending the two.
3
SPEAKER_04
So I would fast rap and sing, but sing it with a melody.
3
SPEAKER_04
So because the rapper in me was so alive,
3
SPEAKER_04
I didn t approach the beat the way that I would, say, perhaps if I was just a singer.
3
SPEAKER_04
So I actually wrote it as a rap.
3
SPEAKER_04
So girl, whatever told you, be thinking of all of the possible lyrical ways to come and approach you.
3
SPEAKER_04
And so then I d write those lyrics down, but then I put a melody.
3
SPEAKER_04
Girl, whatever told you, be thinking of all of the possible lyrical ways to come and approach you.
3
SPEAKER_04
And it was something that I don t think many people had heard before, but it was my style.
3
SPEAKER_04
And had there been like a suit in the room, like an A&R, he would have gone, hmm, you re way too fast.
3
SPEAKER_04
I don t know what you re saying.
3
SPEAKER_04
Slow it down.
3
SPEAKER_04
Too many words.
3
SPEAKER_04
This doesn t work.
3
SPEAKER_04
Who does this?
3
SPEAKER_04
Have you seen, give me an example of someone who s had success with a song like this, with a verse like that.
3
SPEAKER_04
That s exactly why you should do it.
3
SPEAKER_04
That s exactly why I did it.
3
SPEAKER_04
It s because it s new, because it was fresh and because it was, it was me, bro.
3
SPEAKER_04
It s me, you know?
3
SPEAKER_04
So when that landed on that song, I think,
3
SPEAKER_04
A lot of the Asian kids in England growing up, if you re growing up in England, you re listening to, you know, probably R&B and hip hop, which is very common for us at the time.
3
SPEAKER_04
That was a culture, right?
3
SPEAKER_04
That was kind of what we were into.
3
SPEAKER_04
And then your mom s watching some Indian
4
SPEAKER_03
or some Indian Shahrukh movie.
4
SPEAKER_00
So you got Bollywood.
4
SPEAKER_03
So you got like beautiful Hindi melodies going on in the background.
4
SPEAKER_03
And if you re Punjabi like me, you re going to weddings and they re playing Punjabi music and it s upbeat.
4
SPEAKER_03
Those were all of my musical influences.
4
SPEAKER_03
So when I was in that room, it was not foreign or weird or even contrived for Rishi and I to have, first of all, when Rishi put that Indian flute,
4
SPEAKER_03
To me, I wasn t like, oh, that s Indian.
4
SPEAKER_03
I was like, damn, that s sick.
4
SPEAKER_03
That s a sick sample.
4
SPEAKER_03
That sounds amazing.
4
SPEAKER_03
Over a hip hop beat, pop R&B chords, it was something brand new.
4
SPEAKER_03
But it was something, it was all the music that we listened to.
4
SPEAKER_03
In one pot.
4
SPEAKER_03
It wasn t like we re trying to create a new genre.
4
SPEAKER_03
We created a new genre by accident because it was just the stuff that we were into.
4
SPEAKER_03
So then when we did that, had written that song originally, kind of left it there.
4
SPEAKER_03
Rishi was working with Jaggi D, obviously a Punjabi artist.
4
SPEAKER_03
He heard it.
4
SPEAKER_03
He was like, this is sick.
4
SPEAKER_03
Jump on it, bruv.
4
SPEAKER_03
He did his thing.
4
SPEAKER_03
Before you knew it, we had a song that no one had ever heard.
4
SPEAKER_03
And guess what?
4
SPEAKER_03
the people, the Asian culture at that time had all of their favorite music on one song.
4
SPEAKER_03
You had Punjabi, you had hip hop and you had R&B and you had this whole thing in three minutes of one song.
4
SPEAKER_03
And for the first time ever, I think by three at that time, young dudes.
4
SPEAKER_03
Cause if you were like listening to Punjabi music, they were like uncle ages.
4
SPEAKER_03
Do you know what I mean?
4
SPEAKER_01
You re listening to like, exactly.
4
SPEAKER_03
And you re listening to like Malkit Singh, but he s like 50.
4
SPEAKER_03
All of a sudden you ve got these young girls and guys who are listening to people who look like them.
4
SPEAKER_03
Doing their stuff.
4
SPEAKER_03
And that kind of, I think was something that was brand new and it, it just changed the game, man.
4
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
No, I agree with that.
4
SPEAKER_02
Even when you see that in new artists, like I remember, yeah, the first time I ever heard a Drake song.
4
SPEAKER_02
Right.
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SPEAKER_02
Right.
4
SPEAKER_02
Like early mixtapes.
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SPEAKER_02
Like you were like, who s this guy who can sing and rap.
4
SPEAKER_02
and do his own thing now I know that today like you know Drake s gone on to just do hit after hit after hit and all the rest of it and I think sometimes he gets a hard time where people are like oh yeah he just makes good and I m like well if you think about it when he started he was probably the only like real rapper that also did that like was able to mix the two and
4
SPEAKER_02
I ve always I ve always loved his music but to me as well it was that same thing where it s like he was putting together two things that felt natural to him in his own way like he could sing really high notes and then put in like a rap verse and go hard on a beat yeah exactly he could do both yeah and it was just exciting it was to me it s always been exciting when people are not
4
SPEAKER_02
kind of imprisoned and limited by a box.
4
SPEAKER_02
And it s what you re saying about even the entrepreneur and the musician in you and allowing yourself, like I think today we ve become so much better at recognizing that people are multi-hyphenates.
4
SPEAKER_02
Like you know that Rihanna can have a music career and be a fashion icon, right?
4
SPEAKER_02
You know that an actress can also have an amazing company.
4
SPEAKER_02
You know that Ryan Reynolds can also sell,
4
SPEAKER_02
alcohol or whatever it may be.
4
SPEAKER_02
There s so many different ways of doing that.
4
SPEAKER_02
He can own a football team like Wrexham.
4
SPEAKER_02
But in the beginning, it was like, no, you re an actor.
4
SPEAKER_02
Just be an actor, honour that, do that.
4
SPEAKER_03
And sometimes, oh, actually you do this role, you re only doing comedies.
4
SPEAKER_03
And then an actor could be like, dude, I know I m good at comedy, but like, give me a drama, man.
4
SPEAKER_03
At least give me a shot.
4
SPEAKER_03
Show me, let me show those skills.
4
SPEAKER_03
So for me, it was always like, okay, I do music, but like,
4
SPEAKER_03
don t tell me I can only do these records, I can only sing these kinds of songs, I can only, you know, sing, I can t bust into a rap randomly.
4
SPEAKER_03
So that always confused me, because I was like, hold on a second, this is my artistic expression.
4
SPEAKER_03
So surely it should just be, why aren t I just allowed to do who I am?
4
SPEAKER_03
Because otherwise then it s not Jay Sean, it s Jay Sean with other people in his ear.
4
SPEAKER_03
then it s not just Drake, it s Drake with other people in his ear.
4
SPEAKER_03
So I think the reason why people fall in love with an artist is because that person has something unique to share with the world, right?
4
SPEAKER_03
You know, like if you re in a certain mood, you re gonna be like, man, I don t know, man.
4
SPEAKER_03
I feel like I should put on some Adele right now or something.
4
SPEAKER_03
Why?
4
SPEAKER_03
Because you know what Adele offers.
4
SPEAKER_03
You know what her music, how it makes you feel.
4
SPEAKER_03
as opposed to just a random singer who s got a beautiful voice.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, absolutely.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, no, you reminded me of when Matthew McConaughey came on the podcast, he talked about how he was known as the rom-com guy.
4
SPEAKER_02
So he was doing How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days.
4
SPEAKER_02
He was doing all those types of movies and he was amazing at it.
4
SPEAKER_02
It was like Ghosts of Girlfriends Past and like, he was that guy.
4
SPEAKER_02
He was like the hot, hot throb that, you know, that holds those movies.
4
SPEAKER_02
And he said he had to take a two year break
4
SPEAKER_02
from making movies to shift his brand to be able to do movies like The Lincoln Lawyer, later on Dallas Buyers Club, which he won the award for.
4
SPEAKER_02
And it s like he literally didn t make movies for two years and he was getting paid like 15 million to do a rom-com.
4
SPEAKER_02
And he said for two years he didn t do anything because that was his brand.
4
SPEAKER_02
And he wanted to do more serious roles.
4
SPEAKER_02
He wanted to do roles that he cared about.
4
SPEAKER_02
And it took him saying no.
4
SPEAKER_02
for two years and that s a lot of like, you know.
4
SPEAKER_02
It is.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s amazing to think that people who have made pivots in their career have had to kind of have these very like interesting transition periods.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
What was it like, what s the biggest difference between the UK and the US music scene?
4
SPEAKER_02
Because I think you have that, you know, you have that as a unique experience.
4
SPEAKER_02
There s a few of you, right, there s you and then like more recently obviously people like Ed Sheeran, Adele, like there s few people who ve been able to be successful in both.
4
SPEAKER_03
I ll tell you a funny thing, right.
4
SPEAKER_03
So obviously at the time, pre-2009, I was lucky enough to have garnered myself a worldwide fan base, excluding, I thought, excluding America.
4
SPEAKER_03
I just thought, there s no way America knows my music.
4
SPEAKER_03
And that s because America has, let s be honest, they have the creme de la creme of everything.
4
SPEAKER_03
If you think of any of the biggest stars, they re usually American, whether they re Hollywood stars, you know.
4
SPEAKER_01
Now they re all Canadian.
4
SPEAKER_01
Now they re all from Toronto, specifically Toronto.
4
SPEAKER_01
Beaver, Drake.
4
SPEAKER_03
But at the time, so that s why when we were in London,
4
SPEAKER_03
London is a small island, and so what happens is sometimes you can get, I refer to it as small island syndrome.
4
SPEAKER_03
You can walk around your little place and feel like the big shot.
4
SPEAKER_03
You re like, yeah man, I m a Dagenham bruv, people know me and hear me.
4
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, I m Leicester bruv, people know me here.
4
SPEAKER_03
Boy, I m a Scotland man, people know me in Scotland bruv.
4
SPEAKER_03
Okay, cool, that s amazing.
4
SPEAKER_03
And great, and if you can have a career then and you re happy with it, that s great.
4
SPEAKER_03
I always, again, going back to me being a person who s highly driven, I would always say, take me somewhere where no one knows me.
4
SPEAKER_03
I wanna win them over.
4
SPEAKER_03
Take me somewhere.
4
SPEAKER_03
take me anywhere where nobody knows me and let me see if I can win them over.
4
SPEAKER_03
And that has always been something that s very dear to me, even when it comes to shows, any show, like you could do a corporate gig, right?
4
SPEAKER_03
And they have it, and it s like, people will be like, oh, they want you for this show.
4
SPEAKER_03
I ll be like, okay, cool.
4
SPEAKER_03
What s the demographic?
4
SPEAKER_03
This is X, Y, Z.
4
SPEAKER_03
I don t then think, okay, I m just gonna sing X, Y, Z song.
4
SPEAKER_03
I go, how can I connect with them?
4
SPEAKER_03
What am I gonna be able to, on what level?
4
SPEAKER_03
And then win them over so that then they can go, you know what?
4
SPEAKER_03
I didn t actually know Jay Sean before or even like his music, but I like the dude.
4
SPEAKER_03
I like the guy.
4
SPEAKER_03
I connected with him and he was fun on stage and he was funny and he was an endearing and then he actually rocked the crowd.
4
SPEAKER_03
And now all of a sudden you won him over.
4
SPEAKER_03
So when it came to America, I took that same approach.
4
SPEAKER_03
I was, I remember distinctly being at passport control and I was going to go and sign with cash money.
4
SPEAKER_03
That s why I was going over there.
4
SPEAKER_03
And it was a big day for me and I was super excited.
4
SPEAKER_03
I m about to get a record deal in America.
4
SPEAKER_03
But I went knowing that if I don t succeed, at least I have everything else that I ve worked hard for.
4
SPEAKER_03
And if I do succeed, man, that s only a bonus now.
4
SPEAKER_03
That s going to only be even better.
4
SPEAKER_03
But I m excited.
4
SPEAKER_03
I m a bit gassed up, right?
4
SPEAKER_02
So I m there.
4
SPEAKER_02
I m a part of it.
4
SPEAKER_03
Little way.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s like, oh my gosh.
4
SPEAKER_02
Big deal.
4
SPEAKER_02
Young Money, Cash Money Records.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s like, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_03
Right, so then I m there at passport control and the guy goes, you know how they are in America, sometimes they re like, what is the purpose of your visit?
4
SPEAKER_02
Oh gosh, I still get it every time.
4
SPEAKER_02
You get nervous, innit?
4
SPEAKER_02
I get so nervous, man, I ve had so many years.
4
SPEAKER_03
And he s like, what is the purpose of your visit to the United States?
4
SPEAKER_03
I was like, so here s me now, a little slightly cockier, I go, be honest with you, mate, about to sign a big record deal.
4
SPEAKER_03
And he goes, yeah?
4
SPEAKER_03
He goes, what s your name?
4
SPEAKER_03
And I go, Jay Sean.
4
SPEAKER_03
And he goes, I haven t heard of you.
4
SPEAKER_03
So now I know I ve got work to do.
4
SPEAKER_03
Right on my entry to this country, the good Lord has gone, relax mate, calm your ego, there s work to be done.
4
SPEAKER_03
And it was through that one guy, that immigration officer who looked me dead in the eye and said, so what?
4
SPEAKER_03
I have a
5
SPEAKER_01
and heard of you.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I thought, all right, let s do this.
5
SPEAKER_01
Let s work.
5
SPEAKER_01
Let s work.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s always the immigration officers that don t recognize anyone, man.
5
SPEAKER_00
I get the same thing every time.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s the best.
5
SPEAKER_00
But I love that.
5
SPEAKER_01
And bro, it humbled me in a split second.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I m not saying I had a big head either.
5
SPEAKER_01
But if I was to be cocky about my venture in the United States, I learned right there and then, bro, prove yourself again.
5
SPEAKER_00
And that s what I had to do from scratch.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it s such a great mindset to have, because you could have had that interaction and gone, well, you should know me, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
You could do that.
5
SPEAKER_00
Or you will know me.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you will know me.
5
SPEAKER_00
Get cocky, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you will know me.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it s just, it s so interesting because I feel like that is just never a satisfying way to live.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s what I ve discovered, the idea of thinking you re at the top of the mountain or that you re doing things, it s the same thing as you said earlier, when you re making music from love, passion and excitement, I feel like if you re doing something because of revenge, because of proving someone wrong, because of I ll show you, because I ll see you at the top, when you do things with that energy,
5
SPEAKER_00
Even if and when you make it, it never fulfills you because that person may not have the reaction you want them to have.
5
SPEAKER_00
That person would still be like, yeah, I don t listen to music or I don t like your music.
5
SPEAKER_00
Or when you go up to that guy and go, oh, wait, did you hear me now?
5
SPEAKER_00
I m number one billboard.
5
SPEAKER_00
And they go, yeah, my girlfriend didn t like it.
5
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it still doesn t work.
5
SPEAKER_00
It won t fill you, bro.
5
SPEAKER_01
And it s a very, very good point.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I think that it s such an important point because for me, 20 years of work, okay?
5
SPEAKER_01
What have I learned?
5
SPEAKER_01
What are my lessons?
5
SPEAKER_01
I ve been around the world.
5
SPEAKER_01
We were calculating this.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m coming up to a million miles just on one airline.
5
SPEAKER_01
Just on one airline.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I ve definitely done way more.
5
SPEAKER_01
Must ve been around the world 50 times, at least.
5
SPEAKER_01
50 in terms of mileage.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah easily that means I Have had experiences after experience after experience after experience after experience some amazing some horrible Some that can make you feel like you re on top of the world and some that can pull you into a dark place And you don t even want to talk to anyone depressed crying So where s that safe place?
5
SPEAKER_01
Where s the place where you re just okay, man.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m alright with this
5
SPEAKER_01
I m in this industry and it can either make me or break me or it can do neither or I can just have a great time while I m here, make people happy, do stuff I love, take care of my family, earn a good living and it all comes down to exactly what you just said.
5
SPEAKER_01
Why are you doing this?
5
SPEAKER_01
If I was for the rest of my career only driven
5
SPEAKER_01
to write songs and perform and record to beat the big monster that is down.
5
SPEAKER_01
If that was my only incentive, gotta beat down, gotta beat down, I gotta top that.
5
SPEAKER_01
I am setting myself up for failure A and definitely a ton of anxiety, a ton of like bad feelings and feelings that just aren t on a vibe at all because I m doing it all for the wrong reasons.
5
SPEAKER_01
If I then go, if I switch my mentality and go, man, how lucky were you?
5
SPEAKER_01
How blessed were you to be able to have written that beautiful unicorn of a song that makes so many people happy, that really did break a lot of records and changed your life, gave you a life, man, gave you a life.
5
SPEAKER_01
Put that in your back pocket and be grateful and say, thank you.
5
SPEAKER_01
That was wicked, that was amazing.
5
SPEAKER_01
Now let s go on and write stuff that you enjoy, that you love, that perhaps your fans might connect to.
5
SPEAKER_01
But if I was to make the metric of my happiness, chart positions, comments, likes, followers.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m setting myself up for failure because I can t control any of those things at all.
5
SPEAKER_01
The only thing I can control is the music that I write, the music that I record, the music I put into this world, the way I interact with people when I m on stage and make them feel.
5
SPEAKER_01
Those are the things I can control.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so therefore my happiness hopefully will be in a safe place.
5
SPEAKER_01
Because I m not pinning it, I m not rooting it in something that is so out of my control.
5
SPEAKER_00
There s this quote that I heard that someone said that at one point they had to stop being a hit machine and go back to being an artist.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I love that idea, but I feel every artist goes through this series of phases.
5
SPEAKER_00
where you start as a pure artist you start with pure creativity and pure passion and then in the scaling of a business of having team members of whatever it is you become a hit machine you kind of try and like you said you try and like mathematically figure out the equation
5
SPEAKER_00
You may kind of have some hits, you may not have some hits, but you have this and either way, whether you ve had it or whether you haven t, you become unfulfilled.
5
SPEAKER_00
And that s what happens.
5
SPEAKER_00
So externally, even if this person is having all the number ones, they re still feeling internally fulfilled because it doesn t link back to that pure artistry that they started.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then they try go back there.
5
SPEAKER_00
Everyone goes back there.
5
SPEAKER_00
Everyone wants to go back there.
5
SPEAKER_00
Some people take 30 years.
5
SPEAKER_00
Some people do it in three years.
5
SPEAKER_00
I ve met people at both ends of the spectrum who they made stuff they hated for 30 years.
5
SPEAKER_00
Some people gave up after three years and said, you know what, I m going back to doing what I love.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it s normal.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like it s normal for everyone to have that.
5
SPEAKER_00
So it s so wonderful to hear you talk about it in that way, because I think that
5
SPEAKER_00
We had Rick Rubin here a few months ago and he was saying the same thing.
5
SPEAKER_00
He was just like, he was saying the same thing you said.
5
SPEAKER_00
He was like, we re not, music isn t made formulaically.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like he was like, you re not trying to think what are people gonna love and so I m gonna make it.
5
SPEAKER_00
And you know, to hear that across artists and musicians, different genres, different backgrounds, it speaks to a lot.
5
SPEAKER_00
When was your darkest time or when was a moment where you felt like you d, you were just, this is not, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, it s so true, everything you re saying.
5
SPEAKER_01
Artists, we exist in one of two states.
5
SPEAKER_01
We re either, you can t mess with me.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m the best.
5
SPEAKER_01
Or, I suck.
5
SPEAKER_01
Everyone hates me.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m the worst.
5
SPEAKER_01
I should quit.
5
SPEAKER_01
I can relate.
5
SPEAKER_01
There s no in-between.
5
SPEAKER_01
The hardest place to be is, I m all right.
5
SPEAKER_01
I guess I m an all right artist.
5
SPEAKER_01
Who wants to be an all right artist?
5
SPEAKER_01
Nobody.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s all right, man.
5
SPEAKER_01
Fuck off.
5
SPEAKER_01
Nobody wants that.
5
SPEAKER_01
So if you re not killing it, you re here.
5
SPEAKER_01
You re, I suck.
5
SPEAKER_01
I should quit.
5
SPEAKER_01
Nobody likes me.
5
SPEAKER_01
People aren t listening to my music.
5
SPEAKER_01
They listen to that person s music.
5
SPEAKER_01
So, of course, I ve had those moments.
5
SPEAKER_01
Not only have I had them epically in one particular point in my life, my whole journey, man, has been like, it s been like the Rocky story, which is why I m so obsessed with Rocky.
5
SPEAKER_00
I love Rocky.
5
SPEAKER_00
Love Rocky, bro.
5
SPEAKER_00
The slide doc s out, I haven t started watching it yet.
5
SPEAKER_00
Oh man, I watched it, it s incredible.
5
SPEAKER_00
I can t wait.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m also obsessed with Sylvester Stallone.
5
SPEAKER_01
So am I. Dude, that dude, he s so smart and I watched the,
5
SPEAKER_01
I watched it, I m not going to ruin it for you, but one thing I ve always known about Sylvester Stallone is that this guy bet on himself.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s the story we know.
5
SPEAKER_01
He bet on himself.
5
SPEAKER_01
Didn t get cast in movies because of the way he looked, the way he spoke.
5
SPEAKER_01
So what did he do?
5
SPEAKER_01
He wrote roles for himself.
5
SPEAKER_01
What an amazing, what a genius thing to do.
5
SPEAKER_01
You re not going to cast me?
5
SPEAKER_01
Fine.
5
SPEAKER_01
And he bet on himself with Rocky.
5
SPEAKER_01
But he didn t win immediately in Rocky.
5
SPEAKER_01
But what that story tells me is here s a guy, a bum, just a dude that no one pays attention to.
5
SPEAKER_01
But he s still a human being.
5
SPEAKER_01
He symbolizes your average Joe.
5
SPEAKER_01
Your average Joe, who the world ain t really looking at, they don t really stop to notice him, but he has a secret dream.
5
SPEAKER_01
He has a little dream inside of him, you know what I mean?
5
SPEAKER_01
And then when he gets that opportunity, he goes for it, because he s got A, nothing to lose, but B, he s all heart.
5
SPEAKER_01
He s all heart.
5
SPEAKER_01
And he s doing it from a place of love.
5
SPEAKER_01
He doesn t necessarily need that belt.
5
SPEAKER_01
He just loves A, the game, and B, I can t believe I got this opportunity, man.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m going to take this.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m going to take it with both my hands.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m not going to let go.
5
SPEAKER_01
But then the Rocky saga, the storyline continues, the rise.
5
SPEAKER_01
and then the fall and that s why he s to me he s such a great writer is because i think he was simultaneously writing about what was going on in his life from nobody to becoming the biggest star in hollywood to then maybe getting caught up in the game losing your roots oh now i m not even speaking the same way i don t walk the same way talk the same way i don t write the same way because now i m a star and people are looking at me expecting different things and my career was like that when i started off
5
SPEAKER_01
I just wrote from the heart, man.
5
SPEAKER_01
I wrote it because Jay, Rishi, Rich and Juggie D are coming through on a song.
5
SPEAKER_01
Who says that?
5
SPEAKER_01
Why are you calling your own names out on a song?
5
SPEAKER_01
Most songs are just like, hey girl, so you re from the last time we... It s an imaginary story about something.
5
SPEAKER_01
Now that you call it out.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, this guy thinks it s okay on his first ever song.
5
SPEAKER_01
And it s part of the song, it s not the intro.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s not like that, yo.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s not that part.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s the verse.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s the verse.
6
SPEAKER_02
Why?
6
SPEAKER_02
Young cockiness, fresh, fun, not even thinking about it, not studying other songs going, well, what kind of lyrics do they write?
6
SPEAKER_02
What are the big hits?
6
SPEAKER_02
I did it.
6
SPEAKER_02
and it connected and it felt right and it worked.
6
SPEAKER_02
First album.
6
SPEAKER_02
I mean, you re familiar with Me Against Myself.
6
SPEAKER_03
I remember buying Me Against Myself on CD.
6
SPEAKER_03
There you go.
6
SPEAKER_03
Because I was so excited to look at the art.
6
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_03
And I love the idea because on the last track, you had to wait like a few minutes and fast forward it to wait for like bonus material.
6
SPEAKER_03
I love those kind of like hidden things.
6
SPEAKER_03
Like, yeah, massive.
6
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_04
And yeah.
6
SPEAKER_04
Tune in to the new podcast, Stories from the Village of Nothing Much.
6
SPEAKER_04
Like easy listening, but for fiction.
6
SPEAKER_04
If you ve overdosed on bad news, we invite you into a world where the glimmers of goodness in everyday life are all around you.
6
SPEAKER_04
I m Katherine Nicolai, and you might know me from the Bedtime Story podcast, Nothing Much Happens.
6
SPEAKER_04
I m an architect of cozy, and I invite you to come spend some time where everyone is welcome and kindness is the default.
6
SPEAKER_04
When you tune in, you ll hear stories about bakeries and walks in the woods, a favorite booth at the diner on a blustery autumn day, cats and dogs, unrescued goats and donkeys, old houses, bookshops, beaches where kites fly, and pretty stones are found.
6
SPEAKER_04
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6
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Listen, relax, enjoy.
6
SPEAKER_04
Listen to stories from the Village of Nothing Much on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
6
SPEAKER_06
When you find that bright spot to help you get through your day, it s powerful.
6
SPEAKER_05
That s where The Bright Side comes in.
6
SPEAKER_05
A new daily podcast from Hello Sunshine that s bringing you a daily dose of joy.
6
SPEAKER_05
I m Danielle Robay.
6
SPEAKER_06
And I m Simone Boyce.
6
SPEAKER_06
Listen, both Danielle and I are reporters.
6
SPEAKER_06
We ve covered the news and we know the world can feel heavy, but The Bright Side podcast is a space to have a little fun, to learn something new and get into some friendly debates.
6
SPEAKER_05
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6
SPEAKER_05
Join us five days a week to see how life can look from the bright side.
6
SPEAKER_05
We ll hear from celebrities, authors, experts and listeners like you.
6
SPEAKER_06
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6
SPEAKER_06
We ll talk through it all together.
6
SPEAKER_05
Listen to The Bright Side from Hello Sunshine every weekday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
6
SPEAKER_00
For all the parents out there, picture that it s bedtime.
6
SPEAKER_00
You and the kids have been busy all day.
6
SPEAKER_00
You know they re tired, but with all that anxious energy, they just won t go to sleep.
6
SPEAKER_00
This was my kids every night.
6
SPEAKER_00
But I did find that stories calmed their mind and gave them something to focus on.
6
SPEAKER_00
So six years ago, I created the kids  podcast Bedtime History to help solve that problem.
6
SPEAKER_00
Bedtime History is a series of relaxing history stories that end with an inspirational message.
6
SPEAKER_00
We have episodes about Jackie Robinson, Neil Armstrong, Maya Angelou, and Sokka Jawea.
6
SPEAKER_00
Episodes also include topics like space exploration, engineering, the rise and fall of civilizations, and major events like the Civil Rights Movement and the Transcontinental Railroad.
6
SPEAKER_00
With over 2,000 positive parent reviews, Bedtime History is one of the top education podcasts.
6
SPEAKER_00
This week, join me and listen to Bedtime History every Monday and Thursday on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
6
SPEAKER_02
So me against myself, why was it even called me against myself?
6
SPEAKER_02
It was called me against myself because bro, in all honesty, truth be told, from the beginning of my career, I have been in this little bubble where I have been fighting myself the whole time.
6
SPEAKER_02
The rapper versus the singer.
6
SPEAKER_02
The R&B guy versus the pop guy.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s always been this duality of who is actually keeping it real and who s the one making the money and you know up on the stages and are they the same person?
6
SPEAKER_02
because the guy who s keeping it real was the rapper.
6
SPEAKER_02
He was the guy who was like, yo, you sold out, you re writing these fictional songs about, hey, baby girl, this baby girl, that, and on the song, Me Against Myself, it s literally the rapper versus the singer.
6
SPEAKER_02
And the other part of this whole thing was, it was me against everyone else in the music industry.
6
SPEAKER_02
Because at the time when I started, I didn t really know it, know it, but now we look back, I was really out there by myself as the only Asian kid in a sea of, and we re talking like a bit the mainstream artists now.
6
SPEAKER_03
And 20 years ago, even more so.
6
SPEAKER_02
20 years ago.
6
SPEAKER_02
And it was only until I sort of really started coming across situations where I realized I am the odd one out.
6
SPEAKER_02
I am the fish out of water here.
6
SPEAKER_02
I m the one that doesn t look like anybody else.
6
SPEAKER_02
It was very different.
6
SPEAKER_02
And, you know, for me, I felt like at that point, the only thing that was going to get me through all of this was by staying true to who I am.
6
SPEAKER_02
Right.
6
SPEAKER_02
So there s this song I wrote called Good Enough.
6
SPEAKER_02
So what I would do is I would, instead of screaming about it on interviews and ranting on about it and complaining about how difficult it is trying to break through and not having the same opportunities as other artists, I used to disguise my songs, my love songs.
6
SPEAKER_02
I used to write open letters to the music industry and disguise them as love songs.
6
SPEAKER_02
So there s a song on my first album, On Me Against Myself, called Good Enough.
6
SPEAKER_02
And in the lyrics, you think he s talking about a girl who s not the same race as her.
6
SPEAKER_02
So like he s dating a girl from a different race, but it s actually a letter, open letter to the music industry.
6
SPEAKER_02
And it says, it says, I ve got my mother s skin.
6
SPEAKER_02
I ve got my father s eyes.
6
SPEAKER_02
That s something that I can t deny.
6
SPEAKER_02
And that s nothing that I want to hide.
6
SPEAKER_02
And even though my roots come from the other side, they told me that they won t mind because I heard that love is blind.
6
SPEAKER_02
And then it says, how do I change a million minds in this lifetime?
6
SPEAKER_02
What is it I have to do?
6
SPEAKER_02
If I erase my history, what defines me?
6
SPEAKER_02
If I had to change my truth, would I be good enough for you?
6
SPEAKER_02
And really it was about me talking to the music industry.
6
SPEAKER_02
Saying like, I m just like you.
6
SPEAKER_02
Why are you giving me a harder time, man?
6
SPEAKER_02
Listen to my music.
6
SPEAKER_02
Tell me if it fits in where it should fit in.
6
SPEAKER_02
So, but when all that stuff started to happen, I went in a bit of a, it was hard for me.
6
SPEAKER_02
I went into like a little bit of a,
6
SPEAKER_02
a dark place because I was like this ain t this is meant to be fun this is meant to be my dream and and now like I m not getting the same opportunities and and I didn t know what to do about that.
6
SPEAKER_02
You know, when my first album, when they tried to take me onto the second album at Virgin, I realized that these people don t understand me.
6
SPEAKER_02
They don t understand my vision, my art.
6
SPEAKER_02
I m gonna go step out.
6
SPEAKER_02
So any money that I had earned off that first album and touring, I invested in myself, like Sylvester Stallone.
6
SPEAKER_02
And that s where I did the My Own Way album, of course, why it s called My Own Way.
6
SPEAKER_02
On that album,
6
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I remember leaving Virgin and at the time being told, don t worry, you re going to get another record deal.
6
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You know, you ve got all the success.
6
SPEAKER_02
You ve got these chart hits.
6
SPEAKER_02
Of course, you re going to get signed immediately.
6
SPEAKER_02
I was like, yeah, okay, good.
6
SPEAKER_02
I ll get signed to a label that understands me.
6
SPEAKER_02
Didn t happen.
6
SPEAKER_02
Didn t happen.
6
SPEAKER_01
And now I m like, well, I had like four years in the game and that s it.
6
SPEAKER_01
Maybe I should have stayed with Virgin.
6
SPEAKER_01
Who else gets a major record deal and then walks away from it?
6
SPEAKER_02
And then I had to talk to my parents, tell them the situation.
6
SPEAKER_02
I ve just given up a chance at being a doctor.
6
SPEAKER_02
I ve had one album out, toured the world a little bit.
6
SPEAKER_02
Didn t really smash it though, did I?
6
SPEAKER_02
Like for the Indians around the world, yes, I smashed it.
6
SPEAKER_02
Of course, they were like the first guy, our guy.
6
SPEAKER_02
But in terms of mainstream, they were kind of like, oh yeah, that guy had a couple of songs.
6
SPEAKER_02
So I remember being lost, really lost.
6
SPEAKER_02
And I pretended actually to my parents that I was off to the studio working on a new album.
6
SPEAKER_02
And there were times where I would get in my car and I would just drive around, park up somewhere and literally sit down in my car and go and cry.
6
SPEAKER_02
On your own?
6
SPEAKER_02
On my own.
6
SPEAKER_02
and just cry because I was so lost and so scared.
6
SPEAKER_02
Here s a guy who had all the big dreams in the world, a guy who worked so hard at school, two degrees.
6
SPEAKER_02
I had to just really just sit there and think about, there has to be a reason.
6
SPEAKER_02
There has to be a reason that this gift was given to me, that this blessing was given to me to be able to try to fly the flag for us.
6
SPEAKER_02
What do I do?
6
SPEAKER_02
I can t just end here.
6
SPEAKER_02
Amazingly, as the universe would have it, about two weeks later there was this event where I was in doing like a meet and greet and this kid comes up to me and he s about 16, 17 at the time, hands me a CD and he goes, hey man, I m such a big fan, I make music, please listen to it if you can, my contact details are
7
SPEAKER_00
are on there.
7
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I said, yeah, cool, man.
7
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Now look, when this happens, as you know, like sometimes we re like, yeah, bro, cool.
7
SPEAKER_00
But sometimes you get a hundred CDs, you don t get to listen to them all.
7
SPEAKER_00
On the way home, put it in the car, listening to it.
7
SPEAKER_00
I m like, this beat is insane.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, holy, I m calling this guy straight away.
7
SPEAKER_00
I picked him up, picked up the phone.
7
SPEAKER_00
I was like, where do you live?
7
SPEAKER_00
Where s your studio?
7
SPEAKER_00
He s like, Jason?
7
SPEAKER_00
I was like, yeah, he s like, bro, come on.
7
SPEAKER_00
I was like, no, I m coming over now to your studio.
7
SPEAKER_00
And he had a studio in his garden shed in Slough.
7
SPEAKER_00
He had a studio in his garden shed in Slough, and this is a fan of mine.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I said, we re going to work.
7
SPEAKER_00
He s like, dude, come on.
7
SPEAKER_00
I was like, I m serious.
7
SPEAKER_00
And it was just me and him.
7
SPEAKER_00
And on that day, I wrote Write It with this kid who had just given me a demo CD.
7
SPEAKER_01
That s amazing.
7
SPEAKER_00
He had a dream.
7
SPEAKER_00
He had a lofty dream.
7
SPEAKER_00
He didn t know that I was also in a place in my life where I needed something.
7
SPEAKER_00
He needed something and I needed something.
7
SPEAKER_00
We both wanted to win.
7
SPEAKER_00
And that song was just sent, bro.
7
SPEAKER_00
And it changed everything.
7
SPEAKER_00
That song, obviously, as you know, lives on and on.
7
SPEAKER_00
That song has had so many lives and so many edits.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s insane.
7
SPEAKER_00
Crazy, yeah.
7
SPEAKER_00
And without getting too heavy on the spiritual shit about it, I think it s because there is something special about that song.
7
SPEAKER_00
I think it s because that song, it s very Genesis came from a place of where I was at my lowest and needed so badly to be plucked out of this dark place.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I needed something from up here, man.
7
SPEAKER_00
I needed something to lift me up.
7
SPEAKER_00
And that song not only just did that for me, it s kind of like a sacred song for me.
7
SPEAKER_00
And it gave this kid a life.
7
SPEAKER_00
It gave him an entire career.
7
SPEAKER_00
One song.
7
SPEAKER_00
And then, fast forward 12 years later, it goes and gives another guy a life.
7
SPEAKER_00
Some random dude in Lithuania who s just like done a remix and put it on YouTube and then it goes on TikTok.
7
SPEAKER_00
This guy is now touring the world.
7
SPEAKER_00
Do you know what I mean?
7
SPEAKER_00
And it also like, you know, did pretty good for me during pandemic.
7
SPEAKER_00
A little nice little pocket change for me too.
7
SPEAKER_00
And it was like, you know, it s special.
7
SPEAKER_00
So there you go.
7
SPEAKER_00
That was my Rocky story, right?
7
SPEAKER_00
Boom, down here in the dumps.
7
SPEAKER_00
Back up, now Ride It s out, Jay Sean version two s out, shaved head, right?
7
SPEAKER_00
The spikes are gone, the shaved head.
7
SPEAKER_01
And all of a sudden, man, I got another shot at it.
7
SPEAKER_01
The reason why I love hearing it is because I remember like, I remember trying to figure out what had happened between the two albums too.
7
SPEAKER_01
And I remember like, as your fans were following, it was like, I can t remember, it was like, was it Relentless or Reckless?
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, Relentless.
7
SPEAKER_01
Relentless, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
It was Relentless.
7
SPEAKER_01
And it was like, yeah, you were seeing that shift and you never know what s going on on the other side.
7
SPEAKER_01
The best part about that story though is the randomness and allowing the randomness because I think so often as you become more successful, you become more closed and you become more, oh, you re just a little kid, what do you have?
7
SPEAKER_01
And that ego, we ve talked about ego a few times in this conversation, it just shows me again and again and again, the thing that gets in all of our ways is our ego.
7
SPEAKER_01
Ego stops you from being creative because you re scared of what your friends will think, that s ego.
7
SPEAKER_01
Ego stops you when you start thinking you re the man getting into America.
7
SPEAKER_01
And if you would have acted in that way back at that guy, but you, you were like, no, no, no, I m going to get better.
7
SPEAKER_01
I need more.
7
SPEAKER_01
I need to get more people to know my work.
7
SPEAKER_01
And then ego again, could have stopped you from going.
7
SPEAKER_01
He s a little kid.
7
SPEAKER_01
What does he know?
7
SPEAKER_01
I m Jay Sean.
7
SPEAKER_01
Like he s just, everyone gives me CDs.
7
SPEAKER_01
And it s so interesting just how,
7
SPEAKER_01
we have to work against our ego constantly and me against myself in and of itself is actually us against our ego on a daily basis that s the real battle the real battle is us against our ego it really is it s it s so true man i i think i think all of that ties in also bro to just keeping not just keeping your eyes open right but keeping your mind open
7
SPEAKER_00
And the thing is, I always look at it like this, man.
7
SPEAKER_00
Self-awareness is obviously something that you, of course, talk about a lot.
7
SPEAKER_00
And some people go their whole life, man.
7
SPEAKER_01
Not being self-aware.
7
SPEAKER_00
Okay, their whole life.
7
SPEAKER_00
I think very fortunately for myself, I got it quite early on.
7
SPEAKER_00
Once I started this career, I kind of understood.
7
SPEAKER_00
Again, just like standing out as the only brown dude, I was very self-aware, I understood.
7
SPEAKER_00
Also understanding that when I came across those problems and those obstacles,
7
SPEAKER_00
I realized very quickly that my sense of humor was able to get me out of them rather than letting it destroy me.
7
SPEAKER_00
So rather than letting me go when someone says something dumb or something stupid or insensitive or culturally inappropriate, instead of getting mad and causing an argument, I would use wit and intelligence to be able to get myself out of it.
7
SPEAKER_00
then I realized what kind of person I was in this industry that I m in.
7
SPEAKER_00
And this industry, you know, as you know, it can be, it can be very, very fake.
7
SPEAKER_00
It can be very, it s hard to find connections with certain people, but if you know who you are in that space, I think you re going to just, you ll be okay.
7
SPEAKER_00
through the highs and through the lows.
7
SPEAKER_00
Do you know what I mean?
7
SPEAKER_00
But yeah, I love that you recognize that because it s very true.
7
SPEAKER_00
If I wasn t open to the randomness and I wasn t open to the signs.
7
SPEAKER_00
You just miss out.
7
SPEAKER_01
And I think about that, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
Like I think we all have to reflect on our own life and go, where do we miss out on that randomness?
7
SPEAKER_01
because we ve started to think that things have to be formulaic or equations or perfectly fitting or coming from the right source like sometimes you know right like we always think oh yeah that business person will tell me the right thing or that individual and it s like well no they could be some random person
7
SPEAKER_01
in your family or your friends group who says one thing to you that actually shoots you off in an amazing direction.
7
SPEAKER_01
There was, I m going to give a shout out, me and Jeremy had a call like this recently.
7
SPEAKER_01
So Jeremy said to me, he goes to me, he said to me, I just call, I called him randomly.
7
SPEAKER_01
I was on a drive and I hadn t caught up with him for a while.
7
SPEAKER_01
So I ll call up Jeremy and we start having this phone call and I had no agenda.
7
SPEAKER_01
There was no plan.
7
SPEAKER_01
It was just catching up with your mate.
7
SPEAKER_01
And he said to me randomly, he goes, Jay, I can t wait till you start a school.
7
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, dude, what are you talking about?
7
SPEAKER_00
That s a very Jeremy thing to say.
7
SPEAKER_01
Huge dream.
7
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, first of all, Jeremy, I don t have kids, so I don t even know what school feels like for kids.
7
SPEAKER_01
Second of all, I feel really unqualified to start a school.
7
SPEAKER_01
I think it s actually very, there needs to be a lot of research, there needs to be a lot of understanding, like dealing with kids  minds should be dealt with extremely delicately and thoughtfully.
7
SPEAKER_01
I don t think everyone should start schools.
7
SPEAKER_01
Thirdly, like, sure, it s a nice idea, but like, it s so like, I wouldn t, I ve never even thought of that as even a concept in my life.
7
SPEAKER_01
Right.
7
SPEAKER_01
But I answered all of that.
7
SPEAKER_01
And then immediately something came to my mind.
7
SPEAKER_01
I d love to go and study the best schools on the planet.
7
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, I would love to actually go and understand not because I want to start a school, but because I would love to understand the human mind and what we re messing up.
7
SPEAKER_01
That s creating kids who cause issues in the world versus kids that get it right.
7
SPEAKER_01
Now, there s lots of studies and research, but I would actually love to go and sit with parents and teachers.
7
SPEAKER_01
And I came back to my team the next day.
7
SPEAKER_01
I was like, guys, I have to go and do this.
7
SPEAKER_01
And we have to document it.
7
SPEAKER_01
And we have to because not because I think there s content in it.
7
SPEAKER_01
I don t even know what I do with it.
7
SPEAKER_01
I just know that I would be fascinated if over the next five years I could understand more deeply how to build more compassionate children.
7
SPEAKER_01
Not because I want to start a school.
7
SPEAKER_00
Not because I think I should.
7
SPEAKER_00
But that thought wasn t even in your head until this random conversation.
7
SPEAKER_01
This random conversation that my mate just said.
7
SPEAKER_01
I could be like, what does Jeremy know?
7
SPEAKER_01
I ve got content, I ve got stuff going on.
7
SPEAKER_01
He s nice, he thinks he wants me to start a school.
7
SPEAKER_01
But really it sparked genuinely, I can t tell you how much that idea has captivated me.
7
SPEAKER_01
Because I m like, yeah, you know, I d love to know how we build compassionate,
7
SPEAKER_01
empowered, confident children who change the world.
7
SPEAKER_01
I would love to understand that on a very deep, intimate and personal level.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so I started researching like, where are the best schools in the world?
7
SPEAKER_01
And what are the schools that make the most creative kids?
7
SPEAKER_01
What are the schools that make the most this kids?
7
SPEAKER_01
So I m like, I ve got to go to the school in Spain, I ve got to go to this.
7
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, right, amazing travel now feels alive again.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s not like I got to jump on a plane to do some work.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s like it s
7
SPEAKER_00
And it s for a purpose and it s something fun.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I think really what you re onto there, bro, is it s very easy to like sort of become complacent as well.
7
SPEAKER_00
Like you go, this is what I do.
7
SPEAKER_00
Oh, great.
7
SPEAKER_00
Studio at this time.
7
SPEAKER_00
I write a song.
7
SPEAKER_00
Great.
7
SPEAKER_00
Blah, blah, blah.
7
SPEAKER_00
When do you find out, if we re lucky enough to have another 40, 50 years on this earth, right?
7
SPEAKER_00
What s gonna light us up that whole journey?
7
SPEAKER_00
And I think about that constantly.
7
SPEAKER_00
If I ve already done this much,
7
SPEAKER_00
I ve been lucky enough, blessed enough to have 20 years in the music industry.
7
SPEAKER_00
What am I going to do for the rest of my life?
7
SPEAKER_00
What s going to light me up?
7
SPEAKER_00
What, am I just going to retire?
7
SPEAKER_00
Am I just going to sit there and go, lovely, I ve got my kids, I ve got my family, that s lovely, it s beautiful, but I m not like that.
8
SPEAKER_01
I need something to fire me up.
8
SPEAKER_01
Do you know what I mean?
8
SPEAKER_01
Which is like I said, why I did this thing, all of these different companies that I ve created.
8
SPEAKER_01
But the biggest thing now that really lights me up, Jay, is seeing what s happening with this new generation of Asian artists.
8
SPEAKER_01
It really is.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s crazy, man.
8
SPEAKER_01
I am, as you probably know, haven t done an album for a long time, okay?
8
SPEAKER_01
And a lot of people are like, yeah man, when are you gonna do another album?
8
SPEAKER_01
And you know what my answer always was?
8
SPEAKER_01
Here s what I said, honestly, is what I used to say.
8
SPEAKER_01
Nobody cares about an album anymore.
8
SPEAKER_01
They just want music, content.
8
SPEAKER_01
Let s say your favorite artist, let s just say Drake, for example.
8
SPEAKER_01
Let s just say you re waiting for a Drake album.
8
SPEAKER_01
And it s like, all right guys, I m gonna be back in three years.
8
SPEAKER_01
I m gonna just work really hard on this.
8
SPEAKER_01
In this day and age that we re in with our attention spans,
8
SPEAKER_01
Ain t no one waiting three years, bro.
8
SPEAKER_01
No one s waiting, which is why he could churn one out a year, but that s Drake.
8
SPEAKER_01
But people don t want to wait around.
8
SPEAKER_01
So I used to just said, I said, forget album, that model is old.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s an old notion.
8
SPEAKER_01
I ll just keep giving you music.
8
SPEAKER_01
I ll just keep putting it up.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s on my Spotify, it s on my Apple music.
8
SPEAKER_01
And I did that consistently for years.
8
SPEAKER_01
And through doing that, I sort of like, you know, just spend a lot of time on the streaming platforms.
8
SPEAKER_01
I started discovering all this music, which to me was reminiscent of what me, Rishi and Jaggi were doing 20 years ago.
8
SPEAKER_01
So all of a sudden you had these kids from India singing in Punjabi, but they re singing over like a drill beat.
8
SPEAKER_01
And there s like an English vocal on there from some random artists.
8
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, this fusion stuff is happening again, except this time it s happening with these 20 year old kids who are living in India, who have basically grown up with access to the internet.
8
SPEAKER_01
From the moment they re born, they got this device.
8
SPEAKER_01
So yeah, of course they listen to Bollywood and they listen to all this stuff, but they re also listening to Travis Scott and they re listening to, you know, Eminem, Rihanna, whatever it is.
8
SPEAKER_01
So that was us 20 years ago.
8
SPEAKER_01
And I, when I tell you something happened inside me, it just started bubbling.
8
SPEAKER_01
I was like, I need to get in front of these kids.
8
SPEAKER_01
I need to soak up their energy.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s that youthful energy, that excitement, because they re not jaded.
8
SPEAKER_01
They re not, they haven t even stepped into the industry yet.
8
SPEAKER_01
They re just kids having fun.
8
SPEAKER_01
That s who I was 20 years ago.
8
SPEAKER_01
And it lit me up.
8
SPEAKER_01
And I said to Jeremy, and of course it was the best news he ever heard.
8
SPEAKER_01
I was like, Jeremy, that s it.
8
SPEAKER_01
Decided, man.
8
SPEAKER_01
He was like, your what?
8
SPEAKER_01
An album.
8
SPEAKER_01
I was like, yep.
8
SPEAKER_01
And we re going to India.
8
SPEAKER_01
That s where we re doing it.
8
SPEAKER_01
He s like, great.
8
SPEAKER_01
I ve never been to India.
8
SPEAKER_01
I was like, oh, this is going to be fun for you, bro.
8
SPEAKER_01
So we did.
8
SPEAKER_01
We went to India this year.
8
SPEAKER_01
And I recorded three quarters of my album in India with these guys, these immensely talented kids whose faces were just lit up from music.
8
SPEAKER_01
There was no journey.
8
SPEAKER_01
They hadn t even been on a journey yet.
8
SPEAKER_01
There were no obstacles.
8
SPEAKER_01
There was no problems.
8
SPEAKER_01
There were no highs and lows.
8
SPEAKER_01
It was just love for music.
8
SPEAKER_01
And this album for me now, I m so excited about it because again, it came from a place of joy and excitement.
8
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
And it s so, it s so interesting how, like, even that with the, going back to your Rocky story example, there s Rocky 5 where he trains Tommy Gunn.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
And it s like that whole feeling of he gets his enthusiasm back.
8
SPEAKER_00
because he s back in there, he s with a young guy who reminds him of himself and like again there s such a need for us to always go and be with the beginner again and go to the source again and we miss out on that in life because the higher you get, again
8
SPEAKER_00
Less randomness means you spend time with the same people.
8
SPEAKER_00
You re not spending time with the person who s at the grassroots, who s got their finger on the pulse.
8
SPEAKER_00
And all of a sudden again, you re disconnected.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you re disconnected.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, completely disconnected.
8
SPEAKER_01
And that s so right, man.
8
SPEAKER_01
I felt myself going, I felt like through my journey and through 20 years, you know, what s really interesting is that it s very easy to age yourself out the game.
8
SPEAKER_01
Right.
8
SPEAKER_01
It is.
8
SPEAKER_01
And you know, I think it s funny.
8
SPEAKER_01
I don t know if you ve ever, if any of the other artists who you ve had on your podcast have ever talked about this.
8
SPEAKER_01
Ageism is a funny thing in the music industry.
8
SPEAKER_00
I don t think we have.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I don t think we have.
8
SPEAKER_01
In the music industry is weird, right?
8
SPEAKER_01
Like if you re an actor,
8
SPEAKER_01
It s brilliant.
8
SPEAKER_01
You just get to play older roles.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
And sometimes they become even better because they ve been acting for so many years and now.
8
SPEAKER_00
Right.
8
SPEAKER_00
Well, now I feel like most like the main actors like in movies are 50 years old.
8
SPEAKER_00
Right.
8
SPEAKER_00
That s like the standard age if you actually check their ages.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s really interesting.
8
SPEAKER_01
So in a way, the more time you spend there, the more years you put into that craft will actually pay off.
8
SPEAKER_01
I mean, let s say if I was a doctor right now, I d probably be a consultant within a few years.
8
SPEAKER_01
The more years you put in, you step up the ladder.
8
SPEAKER_01
And whereas with music, it s like the more years you put in, it s like you re ending, you re going closer towards the finish line.
8
SPEAKER_01
And they re like, come on, mate, enough now, get off stage.
8
SPEAKER_01
No one wants to see a 50 year old dancing around.
8
SPEAKER_01
And it s a very weird thing.
8
SPEAKER_01
If again, if I didn t have a sense of humor about that, I could be like, who are you to tell me when to stop working?
8
SPEAKER_01
Who are you to tell me I m too old to be on that stage?
8
SPEAKER_01
Who are you to tell me that I have not done anything great since that song or this song?
8
SPEAKER_01
But I do understand.
8
SPEAKER_01
I do understand.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s kind of awkward and cringeworthy at some point if you see some people who aren t self-aware enough to understand that, bro.
8
SPEAKER_01
Maybe you shouldn t be dancing right now.
8
SPEAKER_01
Go and sit on a stool.
8
SPEAKER_01
make the song acoustic and let s just get that audience.
8
SPEAKER_00
Right?
8
SPEAKER_00
Being able to let go of a former identity that worked.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
That s right.
8
SPEAKER_01
That s so interesting.
8
SPEAKER_01
And the thing is quite often we re frozen in time.
8
SPEAKER_01
I m frozen in time.
8
SPEAKER_01
On those plaques in my house and in Jeremy s house, there s a baby face, Jay Sean.
8
SPEAKER_01
And I look at him and I see that young boy and I see what he s achieved and I m proud of him.
8
SPEAKER_01
But I m also very aware that maybe I don t want to keep doing this ten years down the line.
8
SPEAKER_01
Who knows?
8
SPEAKER_01
I mean, truth be told, I m sure Snoop and all these guys said that they wouldn t be rapping.
8
SPEAKER_00
I feel like your favorite artists redoing songs that are either nostalgic.
8
SPEAKER_00
I think nostalgia is such a big part of music, right?
8
SPEAKER_00
Of course it is.
8
SPEAKER_00
You listen to music to feel that way again, to reconnect.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
8
SPEAKER_00
For me, with Usher too, I don t think Usher s made a load of new music in recent years.
8
SPEAKER_00
To me, when he did You Remind Me, obviously, and there was this scene in the You Remind Me video where the song shuts off, but he s on that silhouette of that.
8
SPEAKER_00
You know which one I m talking about, right?
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, of course.
8
SPEAKER_00
The sun s in the background, and he did that on stage.
8
SPEAKER_00
And for me, I was just like,
8
SPEAKER_00
That s all I want to see because to me it s like, that is exactly where I was at 16.
8
SPEAKER_00
I remember trying to do the moves and failing.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I still fail today.
8
SPEAKER_00
Why do you think I don t dance mate?
8
SPEAKER_00
But that s the thing.
8
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, if Eminem picks up a mic ever, I will be there.
8
SPEAKER_00
I will just sit and watch.
8
SPEAKER_00
I mean, watching Beckham in his documentary take three kicks.
8
SPEAKER_00
I d happily watch David Beckham play football any day of the week because there s a feeling there that you ll never get
8
SPEAKER_00
because nostalgia is built that way.
8
SPEAKER_00
Nostalgia will never change.
8
SPEAKER_00
Like if you had a positive experience watching Rocky, I can still watch Rocky because me and my dad used to watch Rocky together.
8
SPEAKER_00
So it will never, Rocky will never ever be old or boring for me because you know, I ve watched Rocky a million times.
8
SPEAKER_01
Bro, I know every word of all of them.
8
SPEAKER_01
Even Rocky V, even though they say it s the bad one, I still love it.
8
SPEAKER_01
I love Rocky V. I still love it.
8
SPEAKER_01
Right?
8
SPEAKER_01
But bro, you bring up such a good point.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s such a true point.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, which is why, I mean, if you go to Vegas, why all of the biggest acts are nostalgia acts, but they put you in a place where you just feel, they transport you back in time.
8
SPEAKER_01
What can ever transport you back in time as well as music does?
8
SPEAKER_01
Totally nothing.
8
SPEAKER_01
You know where you were, what you were wearing, what girl you were dating, you know, all of that stuff, you know, when you listen to a song.
8
SPEAKER_01
and it s a beautiful thing, but it s really funny.
8
SPEAKER_01
You reminded me of something when you said about the Rocky thing, right?
8
SPEAKER_01
And you were saying, again, just to go back to that, the other day when I was watching his documentary, it s not gonna spoil anything for you.
8
SPEAKER_01
Some of the scenes are in his house in LA.
8
SPEAKER_01
You ve probably been to his house a lot.
8
SPEAKER_00
I haven t, I haven t.
8
SPEAKER_00
I ve only met him once and he was amazing.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I ve only met him once and he s amazing, but he wasn t at his house.
8
SPEAKER_01
I hope, I m so glad he lived up to what you wanted him to be.
8
SPEAKER_00
He was awesome, yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
But here s a guy who s been acting for, what, 50 years now?
8
50.
8
SPEAKER_01
50 years in the game.
8
SPEAKER_01
And what was his biggest breakthrough hit?
8
SPEAKER_01
Rocky.
8
SPEAKER_01
Rocky won.
8
SPEAKER_01
Biggest breakthrough hit.
8
SPEAKER_01
But then 50 years of more films.
8
SPEAKER_01
Now, if Sylvester Stallone is walking down Sunset Boulevard and me and my mates or whoever was there and they saw him, oh my God, or just any person sees him, what do you think he hears every day of his life?
8
SPEAKER_01
Yo Adrian!
8
SPEAKER_01
Yo Rocky!
8
SPEAKER_01
Right?
8
SPEAKER_00
That s what we do.
8
SPEAKER_01
Now, he could take that in one of two ways, couldn t he?
8
SPEAKER_01
He could either go, shut up, I ve done like a hundred films, why do you keep going back to Rocky?
8
SPEAKER_01
Or he could go, yo, I get it, because I love Rocky too.
8
SPEAKER_01
And Rocky
9
SPEAKER_01
for me changed my life, and I know you guys love Rocky.
9
SPEAKER_01
And he took Rocky, his baby that changed his whole life, and instead of rejecting it and going, you remind me of the fact that maybe I ve never topped you.
9
SPEAKER_01
Instead of doing that, he s like, come here, I ll put a massive statue of myself.
9
SPEAKER_01
as Rocky, in my swimming pool, in my house, and I will have all the Rocky memorabilia all around my house, and I will embrace you, and I will be grateful for you.
9
SPEAKER_01
And that, I really love that, because I think the problem as artists is that sometimes we wanna, when we do a show, right, people are waiting, man, you go see Michael Jackson, it s Michael Jackson.
9
SPEAKER_01
He has some of the biggest, best songs on planet Earth, one of the biggest pop stars that ever lived.
9
SPEAKER_01
What are people waiting for?
9
SPEAKER_01
and you want to see him do his dance and moonwalk.
9
SPEAKER_01
And he s probably like, I m Michael Jackson.
9
SPEAKER_01
And that s what you re waiting for, Billie Jean?
9
SPEAKER_01
Oh, great.
9
SPEAKER_01
Of course they are.
9
SPEAKER_01
Because that s why they fell in love with him.
9
SPEAKER_01
And that s why they fell in love with Rocky.
9
SPEAKER_01
And they re the people who, for me, in America, man, they fell in love with down.
9
SPEAKER_01
So when I do my shows and stuff like that, whatever it is, even if I ve got new songs,
9
SPEAKER_01
I m not turning my concert into me.
9
SPEAKER_01
I m not turning it into, Hey guys, I know that you loads of songs that you guys want to hear, but I m actually going to spend the next 45 minutes singing my brand new album.
9
SPEAKER_01
I m not doing it.
9
SPEAKER_01
They don t care because they don t know it.
9
SPEAKER_00
The show s for them.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
Right.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s such a good point.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I love this idea of, you know, we all, and whether it s age, whether it s,
9
SPEAKER_00
time, whether it s changes in life, there is a part of your identity where you have to shed, you have to let go, like everyone has to do that.
9
SPEAKER_00
And what s amazing is I actually saw what you just said you don t do happen recently.
9
SPEAKER_00
I won t name the artist, I ll tell you afterwards.
9
SPEAKER_00
I ll tell you afterwards.
9
SPEAKER_00
Right.
9
SPEAKER_00
So comes on stage and we re waiting for this song right waiting and he s he s the he s the first act before the main stage but it s still an artist that I love and I m waiting for the song the beat comes on and we re all there and yes like me and Radhi and our friends that we went with really excited
9
SPEAKER_00
and then 10 seconds into the track they cut the beat and he goes you think i m gonna do that here he goes you think i m gonna give you that whole song he goes i got 30 years of songs to give you and then he goes plays all these songs that we didn t recognize and he actually did that and it was like
9
SPEAKER_00
I was like, you just took away my moment, bro.
9
SPEAKER_00
Like, I wanted you to do that song.
9
SPEAKER_00
That s right.
9
SPEAKER_00
Not because I m limiting you, not because I think you have no other hits.
9
SPEAKER_00
You actually are really talented.
9
SPEAKER_00
Right.
9
SPEAKER_00
But that song is so special and iconic.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
That I need to hear it.
9
SPEAKER_00
You need to hear it.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I felt like 10 seconds of it was all he gave us.
9
SPEAKER_00
And then he never went back to it.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I thought, oh, maybe give it 10 seconds.
9
SPEAKER_00
He ll go back, set, finish, didn t get it, you know.
9
SPEAKER_00
And that s exactly that feeling of like.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s our own stuff.
9
SPEAKER_00
But you re saying we re dealing with that.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
We re all dealing with that.
9
SPEAKER_00
We all have a trapped identity somewhere.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
All of us have what you re saying somewhere.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
And somehow we re actually mad at it.
9
SPEAKER_00
Right.
9
SPEAKER_00
And we re annoyed by it rather than welcoming and embracing it.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I think about that.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s been 10 years since I left the monastery.
9
SPEAKER_00
I m a very different
9
SPEAKER_00
Externally a very different person today.
9
SPEAKER_00
I m married, I have businesses, we have you know media, we change where we live, like so many things but at my heart I m the same person.
9
SPEAKER_00
I m a very, I m different externally, my life has different things.
9
SPEAKER_00
Of course I ve changed, people change, there s parts of me that have changed but I embrace that experience.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s a massive part of me but I found that whether you embrace or reject people always have an issue with it.
9
SPEAKER_00
Because it doesn t make sense to them.
9
SPEAKER_00
If it doesn t fit into their version of how they perceive you, it s complicated.
9
SPEAKER_00
I think for me, I ve learned to accept that I need to give myself permission to be who I am today, to be who I was 10 years ago.
9
SPEAKER_00
and who I will be 10 years from now.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I promise you it won t be the same.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I need to give myself permission to allow that.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I think we, when you see, like you said, when you see Sylvester Stallone give himself permission, we had Arnold Schwarzenegger on the podcast.
9
SPEAKER_00
He s the same.
9
SPEAKER_00
He has the original Terminator outfit in his place.
9
SPEAKER_00
He has Alien.
9
SPEAKER_00
He has everything.
9
SPEAKER_00
And he loves it, like he really loves it.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I love him for it because I m like, yeah, bro, you do.
9
SPEAKER_00
You should be proud of yourself.
9
SPEAKER_00
Of course, like you crushed it.
9
SPEAKER_00
And you re not trying, he s not trying to be the Terminator anymore.
9
SPEAKER_00
He s not trying to be, but he loves it.
9
SPEAKER_00
He loves doing, when my social media manager asked him a question on the way out and they said, do you have any last words?
9
SPEAKER_00
And he was like, I ll be back.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, he loves it.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I love it.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I love him for it.
9
SPEAKER_00
And he s not, he s not disingenuous.
9
SPEAKER_00
He s not inauthentic.
9
SPEAKER_00
He s not stuck in the past.
9
SPEAKER_00
He s a really, he was great to chat to.
9
SPEAKER_00
And so, yeah, man, all these people we re talking about, but Jay, I could talk to you for hours.
9
SPEAKER_00
We could literally do this.
9
SPEAKER_00
I think we have been.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, we have been.
9
SPEAKER_00
I could genuinely talk to you for hours and I love this.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I think we ve, what I love about this conversation genuinely is I feel like we ve drawn like you, you pulled out Rocky.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I think because we have that, we ve drawn this really nice arc and narrative for people.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I hope everyone who s listening and watching this, I really hope that you find your own Rocky journey, like genuinely in your own way, as you ve seen mirrored in your life that you ve shared so wonderfully today.
9
SPEAKER_00
But Jay, we end every episode with a final five or the fast five.
9
SPEAKER_00
Jay, Sean, these are your fast five.
9
SPEAKER_00
The first question is, what is the best advice you ve ever heard or received?
9
SPEAKER_01
Spend so much time on self-improvement that you have no time to criticize others.
9
SPEAKER_01
Love it.
9
SPEAKER_00
That is great advice and no one s ever said it on the show.
9
SPEAKER_00
Second question, what is the worst advice you ve ever heard or received?
9
SPEAKER_01
It sounds so stupid, but it s like when you get the big money, nobody told me how to spend it or invest it.
9
SPEAKER_01
It s a great point.
9
SPEAKER_01
Right.
9
SPEAKER_01
And nobody told me any about that.
9
SPEAKER_01
Go buy some houses instead of like, you know, wasting on stuff like that.
9
SPEAKER_01
So I wish I actually got some some advice on that, how to manage money.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s good.
9
SPEAKER_00
That s good.
9
SPEAKER_00
I hope that, yeah, I hope everyone who s coming into new money is hearing that.
9
SPEAKER_00
Question number three, what has been the gift of parenting that you didn t expect?
9
SPEAKER_00
Because I know you re a great dad.
9
SPEAKER_01
That is no longer, the world is no longer about me.
9
SPEAKER_01
My job is no longer about me.
9
SPEAKER_01
My life is no longer about me.
9
SPEAKER_01
It s all about, it s all for my kids.
9
SPEAKER_01
All of this now is for my kids.
9
SPEAKER_01
And it s the most beautiful thing is there s nothing more grounding than when you can be a pop star and famous around the world, but you come home and you re just daddy.
9
SPEAKER_01
It really is the cutest.
9
SPEAKER_00
Question number four, what is the thing that surprised you most about the music industry in 20 years?
9
SPEAKER_01
how much of a change technology would have on it.
9
SPEAKER_01
It s literally flipped it on its head.
9
SPEAKER_01
It is a totally different animal.
9
SPEAKER_01
There s 120,000 new songs that come out every day now.
9
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Every day, 120,000 new songs come out.
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So you imagine trying to get yours, it s just a needle in a haystack.
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And so many people can be independent.
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You could do whatever you want.
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Don t need that big record deal anymore.
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Although I do have a record company that I ve started for South Asian talent, that that s my way of giving back.
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I m so excited about that.
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And that s what I want to use all of my 20 years for bro.
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All of my experience is to now pass it on to the next generation.
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So I have experienced it.
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I know all about it now.
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So now it s my turn to be able to help other people through it.
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I love that you re doing that as well because I think there s such a need for that support.
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I was probably the two, you know, I was the guy watching Jump Off but too scared to go on.
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Right, well that s it bro.
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I know you love rapping, I might have to sign you mate.
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But no, that idea of like, there s just, I think there s an, I m so happy that you re doing that.
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Honestly, when I heard about that, that was amazing.
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And I m so sad I couldn t come to the event.
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I was on a plane.
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I was out of town.
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Fifth and final question.
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If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?
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The obvious thing for me to think that the world is missing right now is kindness.
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So what if there was a law that every person that you meet, you had to do a kind act?
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What if there was a law that you had to do one random act of kindness a day?
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And I think that could go on to make the world a better place.
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Yeah, that d be beautiful.
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I think so.
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I love it.
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Even if you didn t want to do it, if it was a law and you knew you had to do a random act of kindness for somebody that could have a knock on effect.
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Yeah, because it would make you do it even end of the day, like you have to figure it out.
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Yeah, I love it.
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Jay, Sean, everyone.
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I m so grateful, Jay.
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Thank you so much for coming on.
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Thank you, brother.
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Thank you for having me.
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Yeah, no, this was so much fun.
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I knew it would be, I knew it would be yapping on for hours.
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I don t even know how long.
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I don t know.
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I ll have to ask these guys.
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But no, that was awesome, man.
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Thank you, brother.
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So excited for people to continue to listen to your new album on Spotify.
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And where do you like, actually, that s a great question.
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As a musician, where do you like people to discover your work now?
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Well, the streaming, obviously the streaming platforms is where it s all at, right?
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So everybody knows that whatever they have a favorite streaming platform, but whatever you like, it will obviously be up on there.
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But really also, I love being on TikTok, man.
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I know you do.
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You know, TikTok for me is actually a really cathartic tool because it allows me to, my silly, goofy sense of humor, it allows me to just be a human being rather than just an artist.
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So yeah, if you guys want to just follow me on TikTok, it s just at jsean and all of the usual stuff is very easy.
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It s just at jsean everywhere.
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So yeah, man, brother, thank you.
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That was so much fun, man.
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If you love this episode, you ll really enjoy my episode with Selena Gomez on befriending your inner critic and how to speak to yourself with more compassion.
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My fears are only going to continue to show me what I m capable of.
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The more that I face my fears, the more that I feel I m gaining strength and gaining wisdom, and I just want to keep doing that.
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Get emotional with me, Radhi Devlukia, in my new podcast, A Really Good Cry.
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We re going to be talking with some of my best friends.
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I didn t know we were going to go there.
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people that I admire.
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When we say listen to your body, really tune in to what s going on.
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Authors of books that have changed my life.
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Now you re talking about sympathy, which is different than empathy, right?
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Never forget, it s okay to cry, as long as you make it a really good one.
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Listen to A Really Good Cry with Radhi Devlukia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Parents, if you ve ever experienced bedtime battles with the kids, I m gonna let you into a little secret.
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The Koala Moon podcast has revolutionized over 20 million bedtimes, with parents like you calling it life-changing and the perfect nighttime routine.
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With original kids  bedtime stories and cozy sleep meditations, every episode has been specially designed to make bedtimes a dream.
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Listen to Koala Moon on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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SPEAKER_00
This is the story of how a group of people brought music back to Afghanistan by creating their own version of American Idol.
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The joy they brought to the nation.
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You are free completely.
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No one is there to destroy you.
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The danger they endured.
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They said my head should be cut off.
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I m John Legend.
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Listen to Afghan Star on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.