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Welcome back my friend to the School of Greatness.
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Today s guest is with the number one New York Times bestselling author of Good Inside, Dr. Becky Kennedy, also known as the Parent Whisperer by Time Magazine.
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Today we discuss her practical strategies for parents to connect with their children, how to set healthy boundaries and how to break unhealthy cycles.
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You won t want to miss this episode.
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Now let the class begin.
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I think when we have kids, we have this unconscious wish that they re going to heal us.
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And in reality, our kids trigger us.
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She s a clinical psychologist.
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She s a mom of three.
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She s been called the millennial parenting whisperer.
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Please welcome Dr. Becky Kennedy.
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I m going to take this very first principles approach to parenting, where you strip back every assumption.
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Anything that could be assumption, you re like, no, no.
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And what are you left with?
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And I was left with one thing.
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One, kids are good inside.
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And there is a difference between good inside identity and bad behavior.
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A parent s words become a child s self-talk.
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If there s one line that would be probably the most healing in people s childhood, it s that.
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You ve been called the millennial parenting whisperer, is that right?
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I think Time Magazine wrote that one.
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How do we learn to make sure we raise good human beings without messing them up when we haven t been taught how to be good parents?
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Um, so...
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Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness.
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Very excited about our guest.
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We have the inspiring Dr. Becky in the house.
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Good to see you.
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Welcome.
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Thanks for having me.
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Very excited.
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I don t have kids, but I feel like I had a struggling childhood.
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And I love my parents, but I also know that they could have done some things differently.
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And I think there s probably a lot of us in the world who are thinking, I love and appreciate a lot about my parents.
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But they might have also done some messed up things.
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And if we can start to do our own healing journey and start to reflect that, OK, maybe they just didn t have the tools.
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They didn t know any better.
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Hopefully, they had the best intentions.
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And we can try to have some compassion for our parents as adults.
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Then there s some more integration and healing that I think allows us for us as we grow up, right?
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However, how do we learn to make sure we raise good human beings without messing them up when we haven t been taught how to be good parents?
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And to add to that question, is it possible to raise a child that is not traumatized in some way, no matter how good we try to raise them?
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I m going to try to answer all that.
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You ll let me know which parts of the question I lose as we go.
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So what you started with just resonates with me so strongly, and I think it really is the reason I get out of bed every morning.
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Parenting is the most important job.
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in the world, and it is the hardest job, and it s probably the job we ll have for the longest number of years, because everyone knows it s more than 18 years, right?
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So, and someone said to me, I ll never forget, it s the only job you care about on your deathbed, which I was like, okay, that s heavy, but I think that s, I mean, I wouldn t know yet, hopefully, but I think that s true.
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And it s also, like, the only job that falls under, like, very difficult, very impactful, very ongoing, that we literally get no training for.
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And, like, if my friend was a surgeon and called me and said, I m not doing surgery, right, and I m messing everything up and I kind of messed up this person forever and I m so bad.
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And then I started poking around and it turned out she never went to med school or never went to residency.
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I m pretty sure I would say to her, hey, like, this is not that you re a bad surgeon.
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Like, that s not what this is.
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You weren t adequately prepared, and it s probably time to invest in resources.
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And I just want to say, too, because I think it s important that if she said, don t worry, I got all my tips on Instagram, I d say, OK.
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I mean, like, you might want to do a little more in-depth than that.
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You know, like, I think you deserve a little better, you know, than that.
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And yet this is what parents are set up for.
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When I ve asked parents the number one reason why they don t get the support they even think they need, the number one reason I get, the number one reason I hear is I should be able to do this on my own.
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It s like a shame underneath.
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Yeah, and there s a shame, and I think there s a really strong societal message.
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As a woman, I can say the maternal instinct is like a real thing that people think we should have, which really is a way of saying parenting has kind of traditionally been a woman s job.
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I think they re shifting around that.
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It s great.
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And it should just be something women have an instinct to do, which is a really great setup for any parent when they re struggling to say, I guess it s me.
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And I think when we re struggling with anything, we have two paths.
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And this is where I think we ll be talking about parenting, but you don t have kids.
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I m sure some of your listeners don t have kids.
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This is in some ways about kids, in some ways 0% about kids and parenting.
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Like when we re struggling we can either say, what is wrong with me and it s my fault?
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Or when we re struggling we can say, what resources and support do I need?
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And they re two completely different paths.
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One is activating and has hope and has the likelihood of change, and one is actually spiraling into an abyss and a freeze state, right, of shame, which makes it impossible to change.
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Yeah.
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And I think parents have typically said to themselves, what s wrong with me?
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Wow.
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This should be easier.
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You kind of also see on Instagram, it looks like everyone else got their kid to smile for a holiday card, and you re like, that s not what happened to my kids, you know?
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and you feel like it s your fault, and then you don t talk about it, and then you fake good, and then the next person s like, well, that person seems to be having a hard time, and then, honestly, we feel small.
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You know, we don t get those resources, we don t feel empowered, and it kind of happens generation after generation, until, until, this is not supposed to be depressing, this is so hopeful, you know, what we see a good inside, and we hear all the time from our members is, I came here for my kid, like,
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That is not why I m here now.
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I now ask for a raise.
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I now can stand up to my partner when they re mad at me.
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I now know that it s OK for me to go away for a weekend with my college friends, even when my partner and my kids are upset.
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That s their feelings.
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I can have empathy.
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And I can still do the things I need to do for myself.
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And in that way, I feel like what we re talking about is a lot of stuff you talk about is actually just, I call it, sturdy leadership.
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And what s interesting to me is, I feel like we have a lot of models for sturdy leadership in the workplace.
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Like, there s a lot of thoughts now.
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Like, you can t really just yell at people and expect them to get better at work.
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And I even think that s, like, been modernized on the sports field.
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Like, the best coaches, like, kind of know you ve got to connect before you correct.
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And what s kind of amazing and sad, and yet we re there, I think, hopefully now, is, like, parenting young kids is kind of the last place.
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to modernize where sturdy leadership kind of gets applied and what it really looks like and how it benefits everyone.
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But that s really what good inside is.
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You know, it s interesting because I don t think I ve ever heard that connect before you correct.
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And I just had a flashback to all the coaches that used to scream at me when I would drop a football or miss a basketball shot, or just mess something up, or I wasn t paying attention, or whatever happened, and just screaming at me, belittling me, making me feel less than in front of my peers, my teammates, and shaming me to try to get better.
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And I remember just feeling resentful and angry all the time, right?
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and afraid.
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Now, I would still work hard, but I didn t come from an emotionally good place.
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So I didn t want that to happen again out of fear of shame, as opposed to someone actually sitting down and connecting with me, where I did have great coaches also who took the time to connect with me and ask me questions.
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And why are you so angry?
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Why are you reacting like this?
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What s going on?
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Why are you so frustrated?
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Why did you foul that person that way?
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Like, you know, what is going on?
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I use sports analogies all the time, and connect before you correct.
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There s a lot of phrases I ll take credit for.
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That one s not mine.
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I don t know who said it first, but it s beautiful, and it gives you an order of operations, right?
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Where I think about this all the time, like my kid is hitting their brother, or my kid lied to my face about something that was important.
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I don t know whether they studied for a test, whatever the behavior is.
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Right?
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And I find out, and I see them hitting, and I just kind of send them to their room, or I like take away their iPad or something, which I always say is like the worst thing, because when you re a parent, it really is like, now I have to deal with taking away their iPad.
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I don t even want to do that.
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I like when they have iPad time.
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Right, right, right.
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Nobody wins.
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Like, why did I do that, you know?
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But I think about a basketball coach, and I think about a kid who is missing layups all the time.
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And I think about watching my kid s basketball coach, if that s my kid.
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Yeah.
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And the coach is like, you go to your room, and you come back here when you can make a layup.
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And I feel like all the parents would be like, why?
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Like, why would that even?
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What s the theory of why that would be effective?
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Forget, like, what is my, you think my kid is now going to their room and Googling how to make a better shot?
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Like, yes, you might have to pull the kid out of the game.
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But you probably want to say, hey, like, this is not your game right now.
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I believe in you, and, like, we re
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going to get in the gym tomorrow and get to the bottom of this and figure this out.
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And if that was my kid s coach, I just don t know if the parents would say, that coach is really condoning bad behavior.
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They re really encouraging.
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That coach is making it seem like it s OK to mislead.
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It doesn t make any sense.
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But we actually have a system of doing that to our kids over and over.
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And then we wonder why.
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So many teens and adults feel so awful about themselves.
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Well, when you reflect back to a kid that they re a bad kid, during the stage they re forming their identity, that will stick with them for a while.
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And it s hard for them to kind of...
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Unwire that I guess right and believe that they re actually good and totally possible like to me It s like there s one thing I ever want someone to take from anything I say is it s never too late It is never too late repair is amazing.
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It is never too late the parent who s listening now is like Oh, no, I guess I messed up my kid forever.
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You did not by the way.
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I sometimes say bad things to my kids, too We re human
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But to me, it s the starting point of, right, my kid is good inside.
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That s why everything we do is called that.
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And to me, that idea isn t just a phrase that sounds nice.
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To me, it s actually a core principle that is very different from a punishment or fear-based approach, which is, if I believe my kid is good inside, and I always find visuals helpful.
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So I look at one hand.
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I m like, this is my kid.
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This is who they are.
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That s their identity.
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And they are good inside.
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And then I look at my other hand very far away.
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and say, like, this is their behavior.
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This is what they did.
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And I would agree with a lot of parents telling me, like, oh, they lied to your face?
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I would agree.
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Like, not great behavior.
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They hit their sister?
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Definitely not great behavior.
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But those things are different, and it s really important with your hands to keep them separate, because you could then look at one hand and say, I have a good kid.
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who hit their sister.
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And the only reason we want to punish and come down so harshly on our kids is because those hands collapse.
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It s because I see the bad behavior, and I don t even realize it s so fast in my brain, but immediately I assume I have a bad kid.
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That that is my kid.
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That is my kid.
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It s collapsed.
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And to me, I mean, good inside is more things, but everything else flows from the foundation of actually separating behavior from identity, which I think you get this, but not everyone does, so it s important to name
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that doesn t mean condoning the behavior.
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Like, trying to understand behavior we think means approving of behavior, but trying to understand why my kid is missing a layup, I don t think anyone thinks means that I think it s cool that my kid can t make a layup.
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They re different, but that separation is the foundation for everything.
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What would you say are the three biggest mistakes of modern parenting today?
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Is it okay, I don t, for some reason, the reason mistakes that when I think about feels very like shame inducing, so it feels like final.
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So like what are the three things that I wanna, like myths or things I d shift?
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Yeah, what are the three things that you think parents could do differently today to have a better connection with their children?
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I think that would be number one.
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Number one is that trying to understand your kid s bad behavior is the foundation for effectively changing their behavior.
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So understanding it first.
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You can only change what you understand.
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What if you don t understand it?
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That s a great thing to acknowledge.
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I don t understand why you re doing this.
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That s exactly right.
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Stop doing it, right?
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And if a parent said that to me, I d be like, Louis, that is so beautiful.
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We know exactly where to start.
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And this goes back to not having the skills.
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Why would you understand a kid s behavior?
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It s very complicated.
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And so it would be like a surgeon saying, I don t understand how to do this surgery.
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And I d be like, yeah, of course.
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Well, you didn t go to medical school.
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Let s get you into medical school.
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There are places where you can do that, really.
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So we have to understand before we intervene.
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I think that s a principle of everything.
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So we might have to learn, research, ask questions, get feedback from other people, whatever it might be, right?
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100%, there might be experts, might be the right community, there s courses we can take, there s so many resources right now.
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There s the book, we do a million workshops, right?
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The reason I do workshops is because I was like, I have this private practice where I see a very limited group of people and I was like, honestly, at the end of the day, I kind of have some version of the same 10 to 15 sessions all day long.
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They re always about the same topics, right?
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Slightly different story, but same core things.
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And I was like, I would like to democratize access to that.
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So that s what my workshops are, they re just,
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things that would come up in private practice, but to more people.
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So there s so many resources.
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That s number one.
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Number two is that our job is not to make our kid happy.
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That is so important and so countercultural.
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Why is our job not to make our kids happy?
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Because when we focus on making our kids happy,
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We actually start to make them fearful and less tolerant of all of the other emotions that will inevitably be part of their life into adulthood.
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And so when our kid says, I m going to make this up.
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I m the only one in my class who can t read.
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It s like the most painful moment as a parent.
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Oh, I feel my kids  pain, right?
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And maybe, let s just say it s true.
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They really might be.
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We have the urge to say, everyone reads at their own pace, but you re amazing at soccer, but you re so good at math.
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I want to make them happy.
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All that does for my kid is, because during childhood, kids are not just learning about a situation with a parent.
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They re taking interactions, and they re making generalizations.
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Not for one moment, but patterns about what emotions are safe?
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What emotions can I deal with?
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What can I tolerate?
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And what emotions, as soon as I feel them, do I need to turn off right away?
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And so when a kid says, I m the only one who can t read,
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The truth is, when our kid is an adult, they probably won t say that.
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But they ll probably say, I m the only one who, whatever it is, didn t get a job yet.
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I m the only one of my friends who didn t buy their own house.
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Whatever it is, we re always going to feel that way.
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And so when we make our kid happy, what we actually say to them,
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is I am just as scared of this emotion you re feeling as you are.
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And so then what they do.
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And I don t want to deal with this emotion.
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I m terrified.
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I want to run away from it.
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I want to do anything but this.
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And so what a kid s circuit is, I feel, let s say it s this, I feel less than.
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Or it could be I feel jealous.
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I feel sad.
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I feel disappointed.
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And what gets layered next to that in the circuit is my parents  fear, my parents  avoidance.
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Those things get put together.
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The irony is when you make
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happiness, a goal of childhood, you actually set a kid up for an adulthood of anxiety because they have a range of emotions that they ve encoded as wrong and fearful.
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And to me, anxiety actually isn t a feeling.
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It s the experience of wanting to run away from a feeling.
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And if you- Avoiding it.
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Yeah.
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It is.
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And you can t really run away from a feeling inside your body.
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That s what anxiety is.
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You re like, wait, this is not going to win.
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And so, to me, the idea of we want to help kids become resilient.
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Resilience over happiness.
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And resilience comes from being able to tolerate and sit with the widest range of emotions, not constrict ourselves.
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I interviewed a brain surgeon on here who s also a neuroscientist, a PhD in neuroscience, but also had done a thousand brain surgeries.
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And I said, what s the number one skill you wish every human being could learn to be better humans?
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And he said, emotional regulation.
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Like from doing a thousand brain surgeries and studying neuroscience, the mind, he was like, emotional regulation will support us and being healthier, happier human beings.
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And it goes back to what you re saying, which is learning how to navigate all of the emotions and be with them and feel uncomfortable and sad and know how to manage them, not avoid, run away, be distracted by that.
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Right.
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That s right.
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Because when I was in private practice, I saw a lot of 20-year-olds, 30-year-olds, 40-year-olds.
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And not one of them came to my practice saying, Dr. Becky, I had the best parents.
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And those emotions other people feel, like jealous and sad and those hard things, I got rid of them.
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My parents got rid of them.
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I ve never felt them again.
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That obviously has never happened.
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But what happened over and over, even though no one said it, but their stories and behavior
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really exemplified it was I am now 23, I m now 45, and I m literally no better able to regulate frustration and disappointment and sadness than I was when I was a toddler.
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Wow.
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But the stakes are higher.
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Way higher as an adult.
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Way higher.
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So emotion regulation, that is the goal of childhood.
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I mean, that s the goal of adulthood too, by the way.
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Right?
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Right.
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It s still the goal.
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We re all working on it.
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You ve been called the millennial parenting whisperer.
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Is that right?
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I think Time Magazine wrote that one.
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Time Magazine called you the millennial parenting whisperer.
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I ve had Cesar Millan, who s the dog whisperer on,
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And people come in to say, hey, how do you fix my dog?
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And he fixes humans, essentially.
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He teaches humans how to lead themselves better.
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And it sounds like parents come to you and say, how do I fix my kid?
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And you re coming to them and saying, well, you need to learn how to be a better leader and heal and reprogram yourself and learn how to regulate your emotions so you can manage these situations.
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Would that be accurate?
1
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That is completely accurate.
1
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And I think I d double down on that.
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and say I think when we have kids we have this unconscious wish that they re gonna heal us and they trigger us.
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That s what happens when you have kids.
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So I say it again?
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We have an unconscious wish that our kids will heal us and in reality our kids trigger us.
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Why do we think our kids will heal us?
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Because I think in general we all have the wish that something
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in the external world, something we can gaze out at, will finally give us the comfort and the sense of safety and security that we ve always been yearning for.
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And part of adulthood, I think, involves learning to gaze in, not from a place of it s my fault, but from a place of actually, like, I have the power, and it s hard, but I have the power to do that myself.
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Wow.
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Oh my gosh, okay, so.
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Want to get to the third thing?
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Yes, let s get to the third thing.
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The third thing I want parents to know, and like to me this is, I should have said it s the first thing.
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I messed up my order.
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It s all good.
2
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Save the best for last.
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Start over.
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But the second thing was resilience over happiness.
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Yes.
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And I want to ask you, before you get to the third thing, how do we raise resilient children?
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Okay, then this is – I m excited.
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I m excited.
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We can put the third thing out there.
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We ll leave everyone with a cliffhanger.
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What s the third thing?
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This one s important.
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That one s even more important.
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Okay, so I think first of all, again, we have to understand before we intervene.
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So how do we build resilience?
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Well, what is resilience, right?
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And we have to really understand that.
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That resilience really is our ability to tolerate hard things.
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And the word tolerate is important because we all think it s the ability to get through it.
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The getting through happens when it happens.
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And the truth is the longer you can tolerate something, not something toxic, that is so not what I m talking about, or abusive, but the longer you can tolerate something hard, the success is going to find itself and it s going to be more likely because you were able to stay in the hard place.
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Can you give me an example of what this would be like for a parent in a child situation?
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Sure.
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I can give you two different examples very concretely.
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So this is something I teach to a lot of parents in one of my favorite frustration tolerance workshop, which is relevant for school, for everything.
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So let s say a three-year-old is doing a puzzle.
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He s like, I can t do it.
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You do it for me.
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You do it for me.
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This is a good example.
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And as a parent, I get it.
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You re like, this is like the last time.
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Tired, I want to relax.
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So I was going to have a nice night with my kid.
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I get it.
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But I m really driven by impact.
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And so I actually get this sick joy when my kid is on the verge of a meltdown.
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Really?
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Yes, especially when I ve been working a lot.
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Because I m like, if I m going to spend 20 minutes with my kid, I m going to make it count.
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And it s nice if I m there for a pleasant 20 minutes, of course.
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But if I want to have impact, I literally can picture my impact on him.
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So you re like hoping when you come home that you re having a breakdown or a temper tantrum.
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Because that s when there s going to be a big breakthrough, right?
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But in a way, I think that s a really important reframe.
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Especially if you re a parent who travels a lot or you re not around a lot, to be like, wait, I can have impact.
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It s not easy.
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It s certainly not convenient.
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That s the one word parents need to know.
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Having kids is not fun or convenient in most situations.
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It s not at all.
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This is like your, it s like your Super Bowl right now.
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I guess this is your opportunity, you know?
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Because my kid, and how I respond to the puzzle, is not going to remember anything about the puzzle.
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Their body, not from that one time, but from patterns, is going to be developing expectations around, what can I do when things get hard?
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What can I get away with, right?
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Or, yeah, and what should I expect?
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What is my self-talk?
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A parent s words become a child s self-talk.
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A parent s words become a child s self-talk.
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Wow.
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Yes.
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So what your parents say to you over and over again is what you say to yourself.
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Especially when paired with an emotional situation.
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So when I m frustrated, did I have someone come?
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And I always say, like, frustration is now, like, super bright.
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Do I expect someone to come and turn off the light?
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No frustration.
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Or do I expect someone to come and by the way they re present with me, they dim the light.
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So it s just not so blinding.
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That s emotion regulation.
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That s the best it gets.
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There are drugs that will do that better for you, but that s not what we recommend for people long term.
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When we re talking about true emotion regulation, we re talking about a dimmer.
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Because it s impossible to deal with something when it s a 10 out of 10.
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Even nine out of 10 is really hard.
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Once you get to an 8 or a 7, it s not pleasant, it s not convenient, but you start to be able to tolerate it.
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And from there you can, you know, get maybe to a 6 or a 5.
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That s the goal for our kid.
2
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So I ll model this.
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My kid is freaking out about the puzzle.
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Now, to be clear, are there some times that I d be like, I m giving myself permission to do the puzzle because I can t deal with this.
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Of course, I m a normal human.
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Everybody has to give that permission themselves.
2
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So, Dr. Becky, you re not a perfect parent?
2
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Like, zero.
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No, no, no, no.
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Everyone listen to what I m saying.
2
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Don t think, like, I actually do this all the time.
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You re not.
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Every day, you come home at night after a long day, and you re just like, okay, what do you need right now?
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And you re stressed out.
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Okay, I m gonna do this puzzle with you.
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No, no.
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And that will eventually get to .3.
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And I wouldn t wish Dr. Becky as a real parent on any kid.
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It s just, like, you learn the most.
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I m sure you, too, in life.
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You learn the most from people who struggle and repair.
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Of course.
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Right?
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So, but here s this, like, moment.
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And I can go through an older kid example, too, because it s not as obvious.
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But, like, my kid is frustrated.
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My kid s going to be frustrated for the rest of their life in higher stakes situations.
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They re going to be given something from a boss and be like, I don t know how to do this.
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And like, I actually don t, first of all, I definitely don t want my kid when they re 25 to call me and be like, can you do my project for me?
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I definitely don t want that.
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I don t want them to be indignant.
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How could this person have, I want them to have some type of weight.
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I don t know what I m going to do, but I have a feeling I can just
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think this through or get a little further.
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So that s what I want there.
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That is not unrelated to the pattern of how I interact now.
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So I could say, here s the piece, once in a while I do that.
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Not great for long-term resilience.
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So here s what I might do.
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My kid is starting to have a tantrum.
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And even he s saying, do the piece.
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I can t do it.
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I m going to say, sweetie, sweetie, this is so hard.
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This is so hard.
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And I have real kids.
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It s not like they are going to say to me, oh, that s so helpful to hear.
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No, it s not going to happen.
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They re going to still freaking out.
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But their reaction is different than the power of my intervention, also two separate things.
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I might say this.
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I might say, oh, so many pieces.
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I don t know where it goes.
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Does it go here?
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Does it go here?
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Does it go here?
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And if my kid is like, do it for me.
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I really, and I ve said this to my kid.
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Listen, sweetie, I m not going to do it for you.
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Here s why.
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I know you re capable of figuring this out.
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And the best feeling in the world is the feeling you get when you think you can t do something, and then you wait a little bit, and you see that you can do a little bit more, and I m not gonna take that feeling away from you.
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And so I ll take a deep breath with you, we can take a break, but I know you can do this.
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OK?
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And when I hear people be like, does that work?
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Yes.
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I mean, doesn t that work for adults?
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Imagine you having a hard time at your job and you saying to your manager, like, you do this one if they re like, listen, I m not, because I know you re capable.
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And like, it s OK if it takes some time.
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It s OK if you take a break.
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I can be here to like kind of think about where could that piece go.
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Oh, is that an edge?
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Oh, edge is in the middle.
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Probably not in the puzzle.
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Where do it?
2
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Oh, you re right.
2
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Edges go on the outside.
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Look at you.
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My kid experiences the win in what their body learns.
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is when I get frustrated, I don t look for the answer for someone to take that away from me and give me immediate success.
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By the way, if we really want to get into it, if you want to know what entitlement is, entitlement is the accumulated experience of feeling frustrated and then having someone else give you immediate success.
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Wow.
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That s what it is.
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Without you having to do it.
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And I ll never forget seeing this family of 16-year-olds who was horrified their kid had a full-on tantrum at 16 because they weren t flying first class.
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And they were like, every parent s nightmare.
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And they re like, how did we get an entitled kid?
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The most well-meaning parents.
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But this was a kid, every time something didn t go his way.
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And I think money makes this more complicated because you can
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by kind of your way out of kids  frustration.
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You can.
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So it s almost hard to resist that if that s an option.
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But every time it was like frustration, success.
2
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Frustration, a new option.
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Frustration, I figured it out because someone else does something for me.
2
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Well, when you finally get to the point at 16, if that s your circuit, and then you re frustrated because something s surprising, it s not really about first class.
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Your body actually is like,
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WTF?
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Like, I literally was not built to tolerate this.
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And then it ends up looking awful, but really it s really vulnerable.
2
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Right?
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Super vulnerable.
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Super vulnerable.
2
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So I want to give you one more example of resilience.
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There s three lines I think every parent needs to know.
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And I honestly can almost reframe that saying I think every person in a relationship needs to know.
2
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Whether you re in a romantic relationship, a work relationship, it s the same stuff.
2
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Because another resilience building moment I can imagine is kind of like what I said to you earlier.
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Let s say your kid s a little older.
2
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I m the only kid who doesn t know how to read chapter books.
2
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Or I m the only one of my friends who didn t get into honors math.
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So, teenagers.
2
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Yeah, I d say that.
2
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I m the only kid who didn t get into honors math.
2
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I tried out for the lacrosse team, all my kids, my friends made it.
2
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And I didn t make it, yeah.
2
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Everyone, me included, okay, my first instinct is to, quote, make my kid feel better.
3
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you re going to make it next year, or you made varsity soccer and none of them made soccer, right?
3
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Whatever the thing is.
3
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Or we say, you re going to see it s not a big deal.
3
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Okay, so here s the image.
3
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I m big on images.
3
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Now this is going to matter in 20 years or whatever year.
3
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We say, right?
3
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The truth is we kind of say it because we re uncomfortable, and we re just kind of making a kid a pawn in our game.
3
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But like if you picture your kid on a bench, and if you picture like them kind of in a garden, that s what I like to say, that s like the parable for life, the garden, and there s a bench.
3
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And essentially when your kid says, I m the only one who didn t make the lacrosse team, let s say they re sitting on the bench of, what is it?
3
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Disappointment, or maybe it s embarrassment, or both, or feeling surprised and let down.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t know, it s something like that.
3
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That s the bench.
3
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And as parents, we tend to have two instincts when our kid is on the bench, kind of of some type of distress.
3
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We either want to tell them that their bench isn t their bench.
3
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That s not a big deal.
3
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Even though they re like, but I m.
3
SPEAKER_00
But that s how I feel.
3
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But I m on it.
3
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Or we kind of see a sunnier bench and we re like, just come with me, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
But like, you re the best at, you know, at soccer.
3
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And so we re like, right.
3
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And both of those reduce resilience.
3
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Because resilience is kind of like your ability in that garden of life to, like, whatever bench you find yourself on, you re able to sit in it.
3
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Not drown in it, but sit in it.
3
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Because when you re there, you inevitably will be.
3
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You re not terrified.
3
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You re not spending all your energy running away from a bench.
3
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If you saw that, you d be like, dude, just a bench.
3
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And so how do we help our kid?
3
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feel like, essentially, it s okay to be them no matter what bench they re on.
3
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Or it s really, it s okay to be you even when you don t make the lacrosse team.
3
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Because that s really the essence, that s the core thing that resilience is about.
3
SPEAKER_00
So how long should they sit on that bench of emotion?
3
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Great.
3
SPEAKER_01
So to me, these three lines will play that out.
3
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So to me, as soon as your kid says something distressing to you, we have those two urges.
3
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We have to recognize them.
3
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We re not bad people.
3
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I always say, say hi to them.
3
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Hello, urge to make it better.
3
SPEAKER_01
And here, to me, is the first line every parent needs in their toolbox.
3
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I m so glad you re talking to me about this.
3
SPEAKER_00
to the child, say that to the child right away.
3
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When they re stressed out, when they re angry, upset, shameful, any unsettling emotion that you don t enjoy yourself, say back, I m so glad you re telling me this right now.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s right, I m so glad we re talking about this.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because, and again, if we think about an adult context, if I was like, I m so mad at my husband, he never, whatever it is, he never is home for bedtime.
3
SPEAKER_01
And he forgot the one thing I said, and I was like, hey, you re never doing anything around the house, and I m really frustrated.
3
SPEAKER_01
He said to me, you know what, Becky, well, you re upset, but I m so glad you re telling me about this.
3
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You know relationships, I d be like, I think we re good now.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t even know, what was I upset about?
3
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Because what someone s really saying to you when they say that is this feeling in you that you re feeling is real.
3
SPEAKER_01
I still wanna be in a relationship with you when you re feeling that way.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I still love and accept you.
3
That s right.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so our kids need to absorb from us, from a resilience perspective, my parent can tolerate this part of me before I learn to tolerate this part of me.
3
SPEAKER_01
So that s line one.
3
SPEAKER_01
Line two, I believe you.
3
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I always say if there s one line
3
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that would be probably the most healing in people s childhoods and the most confidence building from childhood, it s that.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s so simple.
3
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Because when you say to someone... What if you really don t believe them though?
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, there s always something you should believe, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
Because they re like, I didn t make the lacrosse team, and I m never gonna be able to go to school again, or something like that.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s so embarrassing, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
I m not saying, I guess you can never go to school again.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s not what I m believing.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right, I believe that s how you feel.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s right, and you don t even have to say that, because underneath our kids  extreme verbalizations, we get very caught up in their words.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_01
They represent a world.
3
SPEAKER_01
We believe the world.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so even though I m never going to school again, I would say, I believe it feels that bad.
3
SPEAKER_01
And because I do.
3
SPEAKER_01
It does.
3
SPEAKER_00
It does.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s like, it just, it is.
3
SPEAKER_01
He s on that bench.
3
SPEAKER_00
Especially if someone at that age who doesn t have the skills of emotional resilience, so they re building it still and they haven t figured out how to manage those emotions, it seems horrifying.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s right.
3
SPEAKER_00
It seems terrifying.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s right.
3
SPEAKER_01
And if my kid says I m the only one who didn t get a chapter book, you know, I got this picture book and everyone else is reading chapter books, it s so easy to say, oh, you can t be the only one.
3
SPEAKER_01
We actually say to our kids all the time, which terrifies me, I don t believe you.
3
SPEAKER_01
And if we wonder why people don t trust their emotions, it s because when they felt emotions that were strong, they received, not one time, over and over a message of, I know your feelings better than you know
3
SPEAKER_00
Or just suck it up, or it s not that big a deal.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s right.
3
SPEAKER_00
Or just kind of undermining their emotions.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s right.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so when I think about I Believe You, I do.
3
SPEAKER_01
I have a daughter.
3
SPEAKER_01
I have three kids.
3
SPEAKER_01
I have a daughter.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I don t know why, I always picture she s at some college party in some kind of uncomfortable situation, let s just say.
3
SPEAKER_00
How old is she now?
3
SPEAKER_01
How old is she now?
3
SPEAKER_01
She s nine, but let s just say she s now.
3
SPEAKER_00
In the future, yeah, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
She s 20, and someone s like,
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t know, come back with me.
3
SPEAKER_01
If she wants to, great.
3
SPEAKER_01
But let s say she doesn t.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know in those situations, it s not a big deal.
3
SPEAKER_01
Do I want her self-talk to be, I do have a history of other people knowing what I m feeling better than I know what I m feeling.
3
SPEAKER_01
Or do I want her to be like,
3
SPEAKER_01
Like, I know I don t want to go, I, like, I m gonna cry.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like, I believe myself.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I, this person is telling me I want something else, but like, how could this person know?
3
SPEAKER_01
Because I know what I m feeling.
3
SPEAKER_01
And those things are completely related.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so that s the second line.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then the third line is equally simple.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s just, tell me more.
3
SPEAKER_01
Tell me more.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh, and then, oh, so they posted the list on the, wait, so everyone was, oh my God.
3
SPEAKER_01
And let s say I knew my son had a crush on someone.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh, that person was there, too, and you were so excited.
3
SPEAKER_01
You were going to be on the lacrosse team, and that person saw it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Saw that you failed.
3
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I m just fleshing out the story.
3
SPEAKER_01
And now at all these moments that my kid was in pain, which, by the way, part of the pain was probably that they were alone.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m kind of infusing myself in every moment.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m adding connection.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m adding believing.
3
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
3
SPEAKER_01
And here s the thing about the bench.
3
SPEAKER_01
In my experience, when you go through this, your kid gets off the bench before you do every time.
3
SPEAKER_00
Really?
3
SPEAKER_01
And then you re like, oh, I guess where are they going next?
3
SPEAKER_01
And when they need you?
3
SPEAKER_00
They ll come back.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, or you find them in that next bench.
3
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
3
SPEAKER_00
So they ll get off this bench faster of emotions if you go through one or all three of these questions or these phrases, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
They really do.
3
SPEAKER_01
And look, we can t just say them.
3
SPEAKER_01
If I m sitting in my kit, I m like, I believe you.
3
SPEAKER_01
Tell me more.
3
SPEAKER_01
They re going to be like, what are you doing?
3
SPEAKER_01
Did you hear that on some podcast?
3
SPEAKER_01
So that won t help, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
We process intention and tone before.
3
SPEAKER_01
language so that has to be there and like I don t want to say it s some magic and to me when do kids get off it like I don t know we all feel feelings for whatever amount of time you know but if like I get it like parents are sometimes worried like am I gonna stick them there like feelings don t give us problems as much as feeling alone in our feelings give us problems
3
SPEAKER_00
Feeling alone in our feelings give us problems.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s what makes us stuck.
3
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
3
SPEAKER_01
We re literally stuck because we re alone.
3
SPEAKER_01
Humans are beings of connection and attachment.
3
SPEAKER_01
Attachment is what s driving us.
3
SPEAKER_01
We re always attachment seeking.
3
SPEAKER_01
When we re not getting the attachment we need, we will get stuck and frozen, like you were referring to.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re frozen.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s interesting.
3
SPEAKER_01
We have such a fear of if I connect
3
SPEAKER_01
I ll keep them there longer.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s actually aloneness that keeps someone there longer and actually makes them intensify things because when we don t get our emotions taken seriously by someone, everyone, forget being a kid, adult too, you escalate the expression.
3
SPEAKER_01
because you re that much more desperate to be taken seriously, which usually makes people be like, I can t, you re so dramatic.
3
SPEAKER_01
Okay, you know what, now they have to escalate.
3
SPEAKER_00
Even more.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
3
SPEAKER_00
Until you pay attention to me.
3
SPEAKER_01
Exactly, which is why the, I believe you, and it can be healing too, and repair.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like, hey, you know, like, you re still stuck on this lacrosse thing, because I get it from a parent, they re like, they didn t make lacrosse four months ago, Dr. Becky is still- They re still talking about it.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right, but if you just assume, and it s not right,
3
SPEAKER_01
But it might be effective.
3
SPEAKER_01
There s a million ways to interpret things, I would say.
3
SPEAKER_01
You can be right or you can be effective.
3
SPEAKER_01
I urge the effective.
3
SPEAKER_01
So just say, you know what?
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t feel like I ever fully understand how awful that day was.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m just going to sit in your bed.
3
SPEAKER_01
And the idea of sitting on a bench, I think that s usual.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s like, sit on the bed with your teen.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I m just going to listen.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I would say to your kid, not listen to judge or give you an idea.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because actually, that s not listening.
3
SPEAKER_01
Listen and understand.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that just means I want to hear you.
3
SPEAKER_01
I may ask things to clarify.
3
SPEAKER_01
But what I ve never said to you, and I should have said, is I believe you that that day felt as bad as you said it did.
3
SPEAKER_01
And not like normal bad.
3
SPEAKER_01
Not like I went to my favorite ice cream store and got an ice cream and it dropped off my cone.
3
SPEAKER_01
Not like a billion times worse than that.
3
SPEAKER_01
I just, I feel like a parent s gonna be like, my kid, really, my kid started crying, or my kid, like something released and they softened, like, I mean, you know this.
4
SPEAKER_01
At our core, we are desperate to be believed.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s like our most core need.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yes, it s true.
4
SPEAKER_01
Just believed and seen.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so many of these times when a parent feels like, my kid is stuck in that, the thing that we need to shift is actually taking the opposite approach.
4
SPEAKER_01
We re usually like, you don t need to feel like that anymore.
4
SPEAKER_01
That was four months.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s actually sticking them more.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s just like, wait.
4
SPEAKER_00
Staying in the emotion more.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
4
SPEAKER_00
Saying, let s talk about it more.
4
SPEAKER_00
Tell me more about this.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, just tell me more.
4
SPEAKER_01
I must not have understood something.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then, of course, it s helpful to have language.
4
SPEAKER_01
Look, this was super, super helpful.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like, kind of, I wouldn t say this to my kid, but we re going to timebox this.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, like, things that, you know, and, you know.
4
SPEAKER_00
Talk about it for, what, 30 minutes?
4
SPEAKER_00
Sure.
4
SPEAKER_01
I always, like, talk about, when I used to work with adults, like, who were really kind of looping in their anxiety, like, we re going to have a worry window.
4
SPEAKER_01
for like the top of an hour for 10 minutes you re gonna literally just focus on everything you re worried about and like if you ever have a productive hopeful thought you re actually not you re gonna say sorry no worry time no no i m only negative only right now i m gonna write it all down and then during the other 50 minutes you re gonna say hi worries and don t worry like it s kind of like when you have multiple kids like you will you don t even want my attention now you don t have my full attention like you re gonna get my full attention at at
4
SPEAKER_01
We re 15 minutes away, and our feelings, actually, they kind of do respect that, and I think kids would, too.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I want to talk to you about lacrosse, and I want to be honest.
4
SPEAKER_01
I want to talk about it.
4
SPEAKER_01
I haven t been the best listener.
4
SPEAKER_01
I really haven t.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m going to do that differently.
4
SPEAKER_01
You re going to see.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m not going to be perfect, but you ll see a difference.
4
SPEAKER_01
At 110, that s what I m going to call it.
4
SPEAKER_01
Not because you re not allowed to have feelings after that, but feelings are tricky.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like, it s super helpful to know them, and it s helpful for feelings to know they even have a boundary.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so at that point, you know, like we re going to do something else, or at least I m going to do something else.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, we can do that.
4
SPEAKER_00
Now, everything you say here makes a lot of sense to me.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I fully believe and understand that this is a great approach to building relationship with anyone, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
A partner, a child, anyone.
4
SPEAKER_00
But I think about, you know, our grandparents  generation, or our great-grandparents  generation, that didn t have the conveniences, the ease, the speed of things that we do, the flexibility, the just pay for something and you have a solution done in seconds, the distractions.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I could see them saying, you know, what are you guys talking about?
4
SPEAKER_00
This is, what do you mean?
4
SPEAKER_00
Have all these loving conversations and really sit down for 30 minutes and let them talk about nonsense or whatever.
4
SPEAKER_00
You know, I could just think about our grandparents  generation, some of them, thinking, what does this even mean?
4
SPEAKER_00
Because we don t have that luxury to do that.
4
SPEAKER_00
We ve got to work hard.
4
SPEAKER_00
You know, there s wars happening.
4
SPEAKER_00
We ve got child, all this stuff we re dealing with.
4
SPEAKER_00
than trying to deal with a simple little emotion.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m all for not being that way.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m all for having loving, vulnerable conversations.
4
SPEAKER_00
But again, what I m hearing you say is learning how to prepare individuals to be resilient is going to be one of the greatest skills that they can learn.
4
SPEAKER_00
But it seems like it s really tough these days to build resilient children into young adults and adults with all the ease, flexibility, and distractions we have.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I think you re absolutely right.
4
SPEAKER_01
It is really hard.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think it doubles down on the reason why parents are like, okay, where s my school?
4
SPEAKER_01
Where s my resources?
4
SPEAKER_01
Cause like, this is a hard world.
4
SPEAKER_01
So there s a couple of things I say, like if someone ever said to me, like, Becky, this does not make sense.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like, this is like, it s like, Oh, you re talking about lacrosse feelings forever.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like, I really mean this.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like if they were in the room saying that to me, 0% of me would even want to be like, here s my argument back.
4
SPEAKER_01
I really like, I am a deeply curious person.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like I really am.
4
SPEAKER_01
I d be like,
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, like, well, and what would that lead to?
4
SPEAKER_01
Like, what would you be worried would happen?
4
SPEAKER_01
Like, what would we be missing there?
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, that s a good point.
4
SPEAKER_01
Or, oh, I see it this way.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like, I would actually, there s nothing I love more than engaging in people who have very different opinions from me, not because I see it as a match.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like, I actually learn a ton.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I have deep respect for people who don t think that way and would say that s the way the conversation would go.
4
SPEAKER_01
One thing I ll say, though, is we have this idea and it s been passed on to us generation after generation that, like, feelings are soft.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s just like bananas to me, like no part of me, like when I think about my style, my approach, like the word softer, people actually say to me often, because there s a whole field of gentle parenting, like tell me about gentle parenting.
4
SPEAKER_01
I don t even know exactly how you define gentle parenting.
4
SPEAKER_01
Gentle is like one of the lowest on the list of adjectives I d use to describe myself.
4
SPEAKER_01
That doesn t mean mean, there s a lot between, but gentle, soft, like that is so not me, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
That s just not my style, it s not my approach.
4
SPEAKER_00
What is your style of parenting?
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, if I had to put a name to it, and I hate boxing myself in, but it would be like, the word sturdy is it.
4
SPEAKER_01
And to me, sturdiness is your ability to both be connected to someone else and stay connected to yourself at the same time.
4
SPEAKER_01
And the irony, and this is what I think is so interesting, we feel before we think.
4
SPEAKER_01
Our feelings are what give us basic information about survival, about danger, and about what we need.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s what our feeling is.
4
SPEAKER_01
Anger is a feeling.
4
SPEAKER_01
Most of us haven t learned to manage it.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s a different topic.
4
SPEAKER_01
But anger is a feeling that tells you what you need.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s useful information to live a life in line with your values.
4
SPEAKER_01
Feelings being soft, I feel like someone said that thousands of years ago.
4
SPEAKER_01
And for some reason, it just doesn t make any sense to me.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s the first thing.
4
SPEAKER_01
What first thing in a circuit is soft?
4
SPEAKER_01
It s primary.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s literally primary.
4
SPEAKER_01
Now, most of us were not raised to manage our emotions.
4
SPEAKER_01
But the way I see it from the start is kids are born with all of the emotions and none of the skills to manage emotions.
4
SPEAKER_01
And for generations we ve said the emotions are the problem.
4
SPEAKER_01
The lack of skills.
4
SPEAKER_01
Because the emotions, they re going to beat us every day.
4
SPEAKER_01
They re inside of us.
4
SPEAKER_01
You can t get rid of them.
4
SPEAKER_01
If you can t beat them, join them.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s soft.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s like something we ve justified to ourselves so we don t feel weak.
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, the funny thing is parents, they don t like the emotions of the child, but they can t manage their own emotions a lot of times.
4
SPEAKER_01
Well, that s actually what it is.
4
SPEAKER_01
When we say, let s say my kid is melting down because classic, let s say, toddler,
4
SPEAKER_01
I cut their grilled cheese in half.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, where I cut it in a triangle instead of the rectangle.
4
SPEAKER_00
Or you didn t cut the edges off.
4
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s easier.
4
SPEAKER_01
At least I can now do that.
4
SPEAKER_01
Or I did cut the crust off, and now I m trying to tape it back together or something, you know?
4
SPEAKER_01
Right.
4
SPEAKER_01
So my kid s having a tantrum.
4
SPEAKER_01
And we say to ourselves, and it sounds convincing, my kid is so cute.
4
SPEAKER_01
We re not reacting to our kid s tantrum.
4
SPEAKER_01
We are reacting to what happens inside of us when our kid has a tantrum.
4
SPEAKER_01
And the only reason we want to shut down the tantrum is because we want to shut down this feeling we don t have the skill to manage.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so again- That we re inferior.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, we actually, we re like, you have to stop because our body actually is like, I don t know how to tolerate the feeling in me.
4
SPEAKER_01
In me, which kind of why it all goes back to our, not our fault, but our skill building.
4
SPEAKER_00
And our ability to heal.
4
SPEAKER_01
our ability to heal and kind of this reframing like I would love someone to come out and someone like more you know stereotypically masculine to be like maybe emotions aren t soft maybe they re pretty pretty tough those things you know like maybe that s like our core it is our core you know like and the other thing about being soft and I just I always have to say this like
4
SPEAKER_01
I think about the situation where we, like, dole out random punishments to our kids.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like, my kid is having this tantrum, and I m like, go to your room, or no iPad for the week, or no dessert.
4
SPEAKER_01
That is freaking soft to me.
4
SPEAKER_01
That is desperate.
4
SPEAKER_01
No parent is doing that from a place of groundedness.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m the CEO of my company.
4
SPEAKER_01
If one of my employees was acting out in some way and I was like, go to your room and no lunch for a week, do you think everyone around me would be like, Becky is kicking ass, what an amazing, they d be like, wow.
4
SPEAKER_00
She s breaking down in front of us.
4
SPEAKER_01
She s breaking down, literally.
4
SPEAKER_01
She s desperate.
4
SPEAKER_00
Is that what they said to you last week?
4
SPEAKER_01
No, but like when people ask me about that, it s like guess what I lead with?
4
SPEAKER_01
The same principles.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like my job as a leader in that situation is I might have to set a boundary, which is something we could talk about because I love talking about boundaries and I think most people get them wrong.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I might have to connect with that employee after.
4
SPEAKER_01
Maybe the employee is always interrupting me or something.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like sending someone away or like taking away something random, like it s just, I don t know why that s a sign of like awesome leadership.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s a sign of desperation.
4
SPEAKER_01
And in that way, I think that way of parenting is super soft.
4
SPEAKER_00
So what s the best way to, I don t know if you want to call it punish your children, but what is the best way to create a lesson within them through either punishment or something else?
4
SPEAKER_00
Right.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I want to ask your first question, because it s what I get.
4
SPEAKER_01
So my kid is saying, what s a good punishment?
4
SPEAKER_01
Or how do I give a good punishment?
4
SPEAKER_01
Or I don t do punishments, but I do do consequences.
4
SPEAKER_01
Whatever they say, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Right, right, right.
4
SPEAKER_00
Boundaries, whatever you have.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s right.
4
SPEAKER_01
gets to the core of why I started writing, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
Because I was trained in a very different way of working with parents.
4
SPEAKER_01
It was all punishments, timeouts, rewards, sticker charts, ignoring, praise.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s kind of like praise the good to get more of the good, punish or ignore the bad to get less of the bad.
4
SPEAKER_01
And when I went through this Very Esteemed program, like to me it was my first year
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, this is amazing.
5
SPEAKER_01
The program taught you these strategies.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
5
SPEAKER_00
This is probably still the gold standard out there to teach psychologists for how to work with parents who work with kids, 100%.
5
SPEAKER_00
And what happens is it lights up the left part of your brain because it s so linear and it s so
5
SPEAKER_00
I don t think it s logical when you break it down, but you re like, that s right, I m going to get more of the good behavior, I m going to get less of the bad behavior.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so it all kind of made sense at the time.
5
SPEAKER_00
But then I think what happened in my private practice is I would.
5
SPEAKER_00
I was teaching parents these ways.
5
SPEAKER_00
They d come to me and my kid is doing something that would deserve a punishment.
5
SPEAKER_00
I d say, okay, I m going to teach you.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m going to give a timeout.
5
SPEAKER_00
Here s exactly what you re doing.
5
SPEAKER_00
There s a protocol and here s the sticker chart program you re going to put them on.
5
SPEAKER_00
And when they do this, I want to give them praise in this way.
5
SPEAKER_00
And when they do this, I just want you to kind of ignore them like they re not there.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s like raising kids through behavioral control.
5
SPEAKER_00
People don t say that, but it s kind of what it is.
5
SPEAKER_00
But I taught this.
5
SPEAKER_00
And while I was teaching it, I started having my own kids.
5
SPEAKER_01
It sounds like it s kind of like training animals.
5
SPEAKER_00
Except what s really interesting is I said that a couple times, and actually some of the more modern people who do animal training are like, please don t say that.
5
SPEAKER_00
We actually don t train dogs that way anymore.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, wow, we ve elevated dogs.
5
SPEAKER_01
Dogs are beyond that now.
5
SPEAKER_01
Isn t that crazy?
5
SPEAKER_01
I mean like that s beneath our dogs.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, because our kids are our most like least respected citizens, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
We don t realize that they actually have the same needs as us.
5
SPEAKER_00
I guess dogs do too, but so I was in session one day and honestly for probably the last six months like the way I would say is like I was saying this and my brain was like, yeah
5
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t make so much sense.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m helping these people.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it s so clear.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s just so clear.
5
SPEAKER_00
And when kids do something bad, I m just going to say it, it does feel good to give a punishment or a time out because you re like, I just did something.
5
SPEAKER_00
And you kind of get to like vomit your frustration onto them.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like that s all it really is.
5
SPEAKER_00
You re like, now I don t have to feel bad.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m just going to put it on you.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I get it.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was teaching it.
5
SPEAKER_00
And this feeling, I just can t describe it.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s like my body was just like rising.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like it was first like, I don t know about this.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, OK.
5
SPEAKER_00
And like, Becky, I really don t know about this.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, well, what else is there?
5
SPEAKER_00
And I remember having, I was like, I don t know.
5
SPEAKER_00
I don t know what else is there.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I kept having these sessions.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then one day,
5
SPEAKER_00
His parents came and I was teaching them how to do a timeout.
5
SPEAKER_00
And like, it truly was one of those, I would say out of body, but it was a massively in body experience that like that feeling got so loud in me.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s the only way I can describe what actually happened that I couldn t finish the teaching.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I just said to them, this is going to sound really weird, but I don t believe what I m telling you.
5
SPEAKER_00
Literally.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I ll never forget their look.
5
SPEAKER_00
And they were just like, seriously, you came very highly recommended.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, we paid you a lot of money for this session.
5
SPEAKER_00
Paid you a lot of money.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, I will give you back your money.
5
SPEAKER_00
And they re like, yes, you will.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, of course.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, come back in a couple weeks.
5
SPEAKER_00
I just have to figure something out.
5
SPEAKER_00
And they were like, we will not be coming back.
5
SPEAKER_00
I was like, and I do not blame you.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like, this was a very weird experience.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m sorry.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s actually funny.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like, with everything I ve done now, I keep being like, I think they re going to reach out to me one day.
5
SPEAKER_00
They never have.
5
SPEAKER_00
Not yet.
5
SPEAKER_00
I don t know.
5
SPEAKER_00
I ll let you know.
5
SPEAKER_00
But it just was like, I didn t feel right.
5
SPEAKER_00
And there s all of this evidence for it.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m a believer in evidence, and I love science.
5
SPEAKER_00
But it s always interesting to get works.
5
SPEAKER_00
What does work mean?
5
SPEAKER_00
And I think this gets to the core of your question.
5
SPEAKER_00
Does work mean my kid has an intense reaction?
5
SPEAKER_00
Does work mean that if I happen to have a people-pleasing kid who s very attentive to my gaze and hates to disappoint me, that they ll change their behavior for that reason?
5
SPEAKER_00
By the way, they will have a whole host of other problems by the time they re adults.
5
SPEAKER_01
Really?
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, what would those problems be for kids like that who just want to please their parents constantly that that s the form of an attachment they formed and so they end up going to adulthood not only Being with but actually seeking out and being attracted to people who are like tell me I m good Tell me I m good for you.
5
SPEAKER_00
And what I want what s going on for me doesn t matter my safety
5
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comes from making sure you are pleased with me.
5
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
5
SPEAKER_00
I don t have to tell you the type of relationships.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it s not so like, and that s what s going to happen.
5
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Never too late.
5
SPEAKER_00
But that s not something.
5
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I think every, I m going to say, especially mom I know and woman I know, is trying to undo a lot of that.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I ll never forget a clinical supervisor saying, you know what else would work for kids?
5
SPEAKER_00
Because I remember he, earlier than me, was skeptical about all these timeouts.
5
SPEAKER_00
He s like, every time my kid did something bad, I made them sleep on the New York City street.
5
SPEAKER_00
But I don t know if I had evidence to show that that worked, if that s evidence to brag about.
5
SPEAKER_00
I ll never forget.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, that s a good point.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like, what do we mean when we have to, like, be a little more critical, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
And I just remember in this session being like, I know there s evidence, and I don t just count all of it.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it s not, like, all so bad.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m not a rigid thinker.
5
SPEAKER_00
But this sounds so cheesy, but, like, what about the evidence in my body that this is wrong?
5
SPEAKER_00
I don t know if I m saying it s superior evidence, it s not, but what about that?
5
SPEAKER_00
And what about the evidence I have from my private practice with adults where I watch them change their lives based on an approach I use with them that is a 180-degree difference from what I ve been telling parents to do with their kids?
5
SPEAKER_00
What about that?
5
SPEAKER_00
And then what ended up happening is I was like,
5
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I m going to take this very first principles approach to parenting, where you strip back every assumption.
5
SPEAKER_00
Anything that could be an assumption, you re like, no, no.
5
SPEAKER_00
And what are you left with?
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was left with one thing.
5
SPEAKER_00
One.
5
SPEAKER_00
Because there s all these assumptions.
5
SPEAKER_00
If you don t punish a behavior, it s like you re saying it s OK.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s going to continue, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
5
SPEAKER_00
When kids do bad things, you have to punish.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, I think that s an assumption.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s an assumption.
5
SPEAKER_00
Again, because if I wasn t my nicest to my husband,
5
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And he s like, I have to punish you.
5
SPEAKER_00
I d be like, I don t think anyone would be like that.
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SPEAKER_01
I m not going to speak to you for a week.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I don t think anyone would be like, you have a wonderful husband.
5
SPEAKER_00
No one would say that.
5
SPEAKER_00
They d be concerned for me.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so I was left with one thing, and it was just like, kids are good inside.
5
SPEAKER_00
And there is a difference between good inside identity and bad behavior.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I ve always been very attracted to gaps that don t make sense, because it s where you can think and wonder.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I just started asking questions.
5
SPEAKER_00
Why would good kids do bad things?
5
SPEAKER_00
Why would good people, why do good people do bad things?
5
SPEAKER_00
And then I came up with this phrase like, well, what would be my most generous interpretation?
5
SPEAKER_00
And to me, this is like a massive skill an adult would do.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like what is my most generous interpretation of why my employee is coming in late?
5
SPEAKER_00
What is my most generous interpretation of why my kid is jumping on the couch, even though I looked at them and I said, please stop jumping on the couch.
5
SPEAKER_00
And they looked at me and they smiled.
5
SPEAKER_01
on the couch.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like, I know my least generous interpretation, because we come up with that fast, because we re like, well, my kid s a sociopath.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it s, like, so fast, and every parent s like, I think that all the time, because we go there, and then we, of course, interact with our kid based on that interpretation, which, of course, you then send your kid to their room.
5
SPEAKER_00
So what is my most generous interpretation?
5
SPEAKER_00
Everyone came back to the same thing.
5
SPEAKER_00
I have a good kid who doesn t have the skills.
5
SPEAKER_00
They don t have the skills.
5
SPEAKER_00
They re struggling.
5
SPEAKER_00
I have a kid who s having a hard time, not giving me a hard time.
5
SPEAKER_00
And the pathway you take from having a hard time versus giving me a hard time could not be more different.
5
SPEAKER_00
And you ask different questions.
5
SPEAKER_00
So when parents say to me, what s the punishment?
5
SPEAKER_00
It s like, to me, a question is like a road you re asking someone to walk down with you in life.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s how I think about questions.
5
SPEAKER_00
And for me, when Parent asked me that question, I m like, that s not a road I m going to walk down.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s not going to lead us to a productive place.
5
SPEAKER_00
And there s a different road I can walk down with you, whether it s like, I wonder why we think punishment is the right thing.
5
SPEAKER_00
But even more practically, let s say it s the jumping on the couch.
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, what s the most generous interpretation here?
5
SPEAKER_00
And I m not a softie.
5
SPEAKER_00
Again, I m very practical.
5
SPEAKER_00
I want change for kids  behavior.
5
SPEAKER_00
I have a little window that I can be tolerant of.
5
SPEAKER_00
I get it.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m all for these wins that last.
5
SPEAKER_00
But then I would just ask a different question, not what punishment, but what skill, literally, would my kid need?
5
SPEAKER_00
so that the next time this happens they actually have a new skill to use as opposed to being punished for not having had that skill same thing with a football player like your quarterback is like i don t know constantly throwing interceptions like i guess you could punish the quarterback
5
SPEAKER_01
Or teach them new skills.
5
SPEAKER_00
But why, then, would the quarterback do anything differently the next time they were under that condition?
5
SPEAKER_00
Like, why?
5
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t even make sense.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s where the logic breaks down.
5
SPEAKER_00
Right.
5
SPEAKER_00
Or I can, in practice, be like, every time, I don t know, whatever it is, this happens.
5
SPEAKER_00
We ve noticed your pattern.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so, actually, in practice, we re going to practice that.
5
SPEAKER_00
We re going to pause you.
5
SPEAKER_00
And we re going to have you notice what you re about to do.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I m going to teach you something else.
5
SPEAKER_01
You just triggered something in me.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s like, when I would get screamed at by the coaches that I felt like were less effective,
5
SPEAKER_01
when I would drop the ball.
5
SPEAKER_01
If they were like, why did you do that?
5
SPEAKER_01
Catch the ball.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s like, you think I m trying to drop the ball.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m not trying to drop the ball.
5
SPEAKER_01
But now I m going to go out there the next time and don t drop the ball this time.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s like, now I m anxious.
5
SPEAKER_01
Now I m nervous.
5
SPEAKER_01
Now everyone s watching.
5
SPEAKER_01
Now there s higher stakes.
5
SPEAKER_01
There s pressure.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I m going to try to do my best.
5
SPEAKER_01
And if I drop it again, it s just like, now I m a failure.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s not empowering me to be better.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s not teaching me a skill.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s not saying,
6
SPEAKER_00
okay, the goal is for you to catch the ball.
6
SPEAKER_00
Let s talk about what might have happened for you.
6
SPEAKER_00
What were you thinking?
6
SPEAKER_00
What were you feeling?
6
SPEAKER_00
Do you need more?
6
SPEAKER_00
Whatever skills you need.
6
SPEAKER_00
So I like this approach to- That s right.
6
SPEAKER_00
Addressing the skill or the lesson or something to be taught as opposed to blaming, shaming, or punishing.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and again, to me, it s just 0% soft.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s just how people change.
6
SPEAKER_01
And to me, the phrase same team.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s also called leadership.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s leadership.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I think same team is a helpful phrase to get in that mindset.
6
SPEAKER_01
I feel like if a coach said to you, Lewis, we re on the same team.
6
SPEAKER_01
And Lewis, I know you know you re supposed to catch the ball.
6
SPEAKER_01
You do not need me to tell you that.
6
SPEAKER_01
Our kids know that they shouldn t be hitting.
6
SPEAKER_01
But if you think about that, that can anger parents.
6
SPEAKER_01
They know better.
6
SPEAKER_01
I know better than to scroll my phone before bed.
6
SPEAKER_00
Sure, sure.
6
SPEAKER_01
Still do it, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
So if you approach someone like, hey Louis, we re on the same team, and I know you know this, and this is like a helpful phrase even to think, there s something that s getting in your way this game.
6
SPEAKER_01
I don t really know what it is, but I do know we re going to break it down together and figure it out.
6
SPEAKER_01
How are you going to feel?
6
SPEAKER_00
You ll feel a lot better.
6
SPEAKER_00
Oh, he s on my side, or she s on my side.
6
SPEAKER_00
They see what I m up to.
6
SPEAKER_00
They re with me in the pain, whatever it might be.
6
SPEAKER_01
That s right.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I don t think you think, I think my coach thinks it s fine if I drop the next ball.
6
SPEAKER_01
No one thinks that.
6
SPEAKER_01
You re just like, now you have an opportunity to change.
6
SPEAKER_01
So if we get this jumping on the couch example, because I think it s like a good one.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s a good one.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s a good one.
6
SPEAKER_01
And it actually brings us to boundaries, which is one of my favorite life topics.
6
SPEAKER_01
I like it.
6
SPEAKER_01
Because as much as I like feelings, I like boundaries.
6
SPEAKER_01
This is where we ve gone a little too far, some people.
6
SPEAKER_01
People are like, okay, I m not punishing my kid.
6
SPEAKER_01
Their feelings matter.
6
SPEAKER_01
But then it s like kids  feelings drive decision-making.
6
SPEAKER_00
And that is... They drive decisions for parents and the whole family, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
Equally as bad for kids as sending them to their room.
6
SPEAKER_01
So validating feelings is an incomplete parenting strategy.
6
SPEAKER_01
I will go on the record and say that.
6
SPEAKER_00
Say it again?
6
SPEAKER_01
Validating feelings is an incomplete parenting strategy.
6
SPEAKER_00
Right.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s part of the strategy.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
6
SPEAKER_01
but it cannot be the whole thing.
6
SPEAKER_00
And also to pause there, because I want to hear the final there, but when parents allow the children to dictate how the family is run, what happens then?
6
SPEAKER_01
Terrifying for kids.
6
SPEAKER_01
So, to me, this is how I describe it, okay?
6
SPEAKER_01
So imagine you re on a plane and you re a passenger, okay?
6
SPEAKER_01
Are you actually a pilot?
6
SPEAKER_01
Are you probably trained to be a pilot?
6
SPEAKER_01
I m not a pilot, no.
6
SPEAKER_01
Okay, I don t want you to surprise me.
6
SPEAKER_01
What else?
6
SPEAKER_01
Then I m going to have to pick a different metaphor.
6
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so you re a passenger and I m the pilot and it s very turbulent and you re looking around like all the passengers are like freaking out.
6
SPEAKER_01
Right?
6
SPEAKER_01
So pilot one would be like classic punishment parent and they d get on, it s not called a loudspeaker.
6
SPEAKER_00
The intercom?
6
SPEAKER_01
The intercom, thank you.
6
SPEAKER_01
And they d say like, everyone back there stop, you re so dramatic, you re making a big deal of nothing and you re ruining my flight.
6
SPEAKER_01
Something like that, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
This is what we say to our kids, like, you re ruining my dinner out, whatever we say.
6
SPEAKER_01
Meanwhile, if I m thinking about you, passenger, you re like, first of all, like, does this person know it s pretty turbulent?
6
SPEAKER_01
Like, they didn t even mention that, because it is.
6
SPEAKER_01
Second, like, all it takes is passengers being upset to kind of make my pilot, like, go off the deep end.
6
SPEAKER_00
That s scary.
6
SPEAKER_01
You re more scared.
6
OK.
6
SPEAKER_01
But pilot two is the opposite extreme.
6
SPEAKER_01
Everyone back there is scared.
6
SPEAKER_01
And you know what?
6
SPEAKER_01
It is scary.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I m just going to open the cockpit door.
6
SPEAKER_01
If anyone wants to come in here and take over, be my guest.
6
SPEAKER_01
Terrifying.
6
SPEAKER_01
Terrifying.
6
SPEAKER_01
Where we re like, your feelings were just contagious.
6
SPEAKER_01
And that s what happens, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
Where someone s like.
6
SPEAKER_01
I don t want, I don t want to, I don t, I want to watch one more show, I want to watch one more show.
6
SPEAKER_01
Now if as a parent you think, you know what, I don t care about having them watch another show.
6
SPEAKER_01
I thought about it.
6
SPEAKER_01
I am changing my decision because I made that shift.
6
SPEAKER_01
Kids can smell and they know whether it s that or if it s something like, oh, OK, yes, I guess you can go to bed late because tomorrow we ll go, oh, OK, fine.
6
SPEAKER_01
And a kid feels like you open the cockpit door.
6
SPEAKER_00
You influence, yeah, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
And now they can make big decisions.
6
SPEAKER_01
That is actually terrifying for a kid because they feel like they don t have a leader.
6
SPEAKER_01
They don t have a pilot.
6
SPEAKER_00
Kids love boundaries, don t they?
6
SPEAKER_01
They love boundaries.
6
SPEAKER_01
It would be like if your pilot was like, we have to make an emergency landing.
6
SPEAKER_01
And everyone s like, no, I don t want to land in Denver.
6
SPEAKER_01
And the pilot s like, OK, forget it.
6
SPEAKER_00
We ll just crash.
6
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
6
SPEAKER_01
You re like, just, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
So the third pilot to me is the essence of sturdy leadership, which to me are those pillars, validating other people s feelings and staying connected to your own role through your boundaries.
6
SPEAKER_01
And to me, the pilot you want to hear there is, I hear that everyone s freaking out.
6
SPEAKER_01
You re right.
6
SPEAKER_01
I hear you.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s very turbulent.
6
SPEAKER_00
Stay calm.
6
SPEAKER_01
And even if it s a pilot, you don t think it s that turbulent.
6
SPEAKER_01
You can still say, I recognize it s turbulent.
6
SPEAKER_01
Everyone s upset.
6
SPEAKER_01
You know, you guys do your thing.
6
SPEAKER_01
If you need to scream, it s fine.
6
SPEAKER_01
I m about to get off and go do my job.
6
SPEAKER_01
I ve done this a million times.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I m going to land us in Los Angeles.
6
SPEAKER_01
I ll see you on the ground.
6
SPEAKER_00
Let s go.
6
SPEAKER_01
Let s freaking go, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
And you re like, why am I calm?
6
SPEAKER_01
Nothing around me changed.
6
SPEAKER_01
Right.
6
SPEAKER_01
But I am calm.
6
SPEAKER_01
And to me, you want a leader who sees that your feelings are real and is not infected by them.
6
SPEAKER_01
And the only thing that stops that infection or contagion is a boundary.
6
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
6
SPEAKER_01
And the ability to know, I am not
6
SPEAKER_01
Those are their feelings.
6
SPEAKER_01
And empathy for feelings requires boundaries.
6
SPEAKER_01
Because if you re not having up a boundary, you re not empathizing with your kid, you re actually kind of what we were talking about, you re kind of responding to the way that feeling came into your body.
6
SPEAKER_01
That s not empathy.
6
SPEAKER_01
Right?
6
SPEAKER_01
Boundaries are actually what allow you to say to a kid who s upset about the cut grilled cheese, even though, by the way, you re not making a new one, or say to the kid when the TV time is over, I know you really wish you could watch another show.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s so hard to stop.
6
SPEAKER_01
And when they say, so I can, you say, oh, sweetie, no.
6
SPEAKER_01
No, no, no.
6
SPEAKER_01
My number one job is to keep you safe.
6
SPEAKER_01
Part of keeping you safe is making key decisions, like bedtime.
6
SPEAKER_01
Bedtime is absolutely now.
6
SPEAKER_01
You can tell me the show you want to watch tomorrow.
6
SPEAKER_01
I ll write it down.
6
SPEAKER_01
I get it.
6
SPEAKER_01
This isn t what you wanted.
6
SPEAKER_01
Do you see?
6
SPEAKER_01
There s, like, this bouncing.
6
SPEAKER_01
I m validating.
6
SPEAKER_01
But, like, I would say...
6
SPEAKER_01
My kids  feelings don t dictate my boundaries, and my boundaries don t dictate my kids  feelings.
6
SPEAKER_01
They just kind of, they coexist.
6
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
6
SPEAKER_00
Why is it so hard for parents to create boundaries with their kids?
6
SPEAKER_01
So, first of all, we don t define what boundaries are, and we get it wrong.
6
SPEAKER_01
So, boundaries are what we tell someone we will do, and they require the other person to do nothing.
6
SPEAKER_01
This is true in adulthood too, all the time.
6
SPEAKER_01
So like with my kid in the couch, this is a good example.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I have a kid like this because my three kids are totally different and one of them is zero percent people pleasing.
6
SPEAKER_01
And he s just like, I delight in him because he s my third.
6
SPEAKER_01
He likes to test things out.
6
SPEAKER_01
He s going to be a leader one day.
6
SPEAKER_01
I get it, you know.
6
SPEAKER_01
But I would look at him and I d be like, hey.
6
SPEAKER_01
Stop jumping.
6
SPEAKER_01
Let s say it stopped.
6
SPEAKER_01
At my house, people jump on the couch.
6
SPEAKER_01
I don t really care.
6
SPEAKER_01
But let s say it was that.
6
SPEAKER_01
It was dangerous.
6
SPEAKER_01
There was a glass table.
6
SPEAKER_01
Sweetie, I need you to stop jumping on the couch.
6
SPEAKER_01
You can jump on the floor.
6
SPEAKER_01
And then he looks at me, and he starts jumping.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I say, you violated my boundaries.
6
SPEAKER_01
He doesn t respect my boundaries.
6
SPEAKER_01
He doesn t respect me.
6
SPEAKER_01
We always like center ourselves, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
Now, if I have a kid who I know
6
SPEAKER_01
is kind of like a pushing the limit kid, not because they re bad, because that s how they re learning about their world, their temperament.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, their personality.
6
SPEAKER_01
This is not a boundary.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s not a boundary.
6
SPEAKER_01
That s a request.
6
SPEAKER_01
Because the success of what I said is dependent on someone else.
6
SPEAKER_01
When we make a request of someone, which we have to do, we can t always set a boundary, we have to be in a relationship with them.
6
SPEAKER_01
We have to understand they have the right coping abilities.
6
SPEAKER_01
We have to know that they might
6
SPEAKER_00
Declined?
6
SPEAKER_00
They might decline.
6
SPEAKER_01
They might decline.
6
SPEAKER_01
Probably not because they don t respect me, you know?
6
SPEAKER_01
Like, it s just for other reasons.
6
SPEAKER_01
This is a boundary.
6
SPEAKER_01
And again, this is where good inside is anything but soft.
6
SPEAKER_01
After he doesn t listen, hey, sweetie, it looks like you re having a hard time getting down off the couch.
6
SPEAKER_01
I m going to walk over to you.
6
SPEAKER_01
And if by the time I get there, you re not off, I m going to put my hands around you.
6
SPEAKER_01
I m going to pick you up.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I m going to put you on the floor.
6
SPEAKER_01
And you can jump over there.
6
SPEAKER_01
That is a boundary.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I can even test it.
6
SPEAKER_01
Did I tell my kid what I will do?
6
I did.
6
SPEAKER_01
Does it require my kid to do nothing?
6
SPEAKER_01
It does.
6
SPEAKER_01
And just to get real, when I do that with my son, he does not say to me,
6
SPEAKER_01
Thank you for your sturdy leadership.
6
SPEAKER_01
He does not.
6
SPEAKER_00
You get no praise, no gratitude.
6
SPEAKER_00
Zero.
6
SPEAKER_00
I get a tantrum.
6
SPEAKER_01
And on some level, I think, again, we wish as parents that when we have these amazing interventions, our kids are going to clap it up for us.
6
SPEAKER_00
I love you, mommy.
6
SPEAKER_00
Thank you so much.
6
SPEAKER_01
Right.
6
SPEAKER_01
They re not.
6
SPEAKER_01
We have to validate ourselves.
6
SPEAKER_00
Hard for people.
6
SPEAKER_01
Definitely hard for women.
6
SPEAKER_01
I know I m doing my role.
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Why is it hard for women to validate themselves and not want validation from their children?
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Well, we do want validation.
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Why is it hard?
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Why is it hard for them to, I mean, validate themselves when they don t ever get validation from their kids?
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That s right.
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So, I think women and many people, so it s not just women, but let s just say especially little girls, we are taught in families, we are taught by society to gaze out before we gaze in.
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To me, the essence of confidence is your ability to gaze in before you gaze out.
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Like, what is going on for me?
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At least what do I need?
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But we are taught to gaze out.
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And we are taught to say, I can fill myself up outside.
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Who am I?
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How do you look at me?
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Are you happy?
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with me are you telling me I m doing a good job and I m making you happy even just like classic and like I always think about people I used to see teens in my practice and be like does he like me I want him to like me I hope he likes me and it was like what do you like about this dude sounds like a douchebag and they were like and literally I remember one being like
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Do I like, it was a foreign question.
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Especially now, I m brought up like, what do I like?
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I mean, I guess I like the things on Instagram that got the most likes because they told me those, that s not what you like.
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That s not what you liked about the picture.
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The gazing out culture is just massive now, but especially women, and we don t realize that by the time we become parents.
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No one says, I need my kid s approval.
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Everyone s like, of course I don t.
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But we get sucked back into the same circuits.
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So when we set a boundary in our kid protests, unconsciously what happens in our body is, see, I ve done it wrong.
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And then we get the result.
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We look for our kids approval.
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We look for right.
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And we say things like that.
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Don t you think it s time to go to bed.
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Come on.
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You ve been up so late.
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It s like asking for you know permission or approval.
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It s like the pilot saying don t you think we should make an emergency landing.
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Like right.
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And you re like
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Right?
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That s, and then that s, of course, that actually leads to kind of, quote, worse behavior in kids.
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Not because kids are trying to manipulate us at all.
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Imagine being on the plane and hearing that from your pilot.
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There d be worse behavior from passengers because they feel so much more unsafe.
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They feel out of control.
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They want to try to control some situation.
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Yes.
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Wow.
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I m like, I have so many extra questions I wanna ask you, but I m- We didn t even get to number three.
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Okay, let s get to three.
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Let s get to three, because- We don t have to ever get there.
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So we shouldn t punish.
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So yes, to me- And is there ever a time to punish?
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I mean, I really am not so rigid.
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I try not to be so rigid.
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But to me, it s like the question of should we punish, to me, brings you back for another key framework, the same team framework.
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And to me, again, same thing at work, same thing in romantic relationships.
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When you re mad at someone, or when you re in a conflict, or when you feel like someone did something to you, assuming it s a person that you want to be in a relationship with.
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If it s not, this doesn t apply.
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If they re toxic.
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But if it s someone you re like, in general, we have a good relationship.
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There s two ways approaching it.
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One is, and it s kind of like how we re sitting, it s me against you and Lewis is the problem.
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So let s say like I arrived to your podcast studio and you were like 30 minutes late.
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I m like so pissed and I want to tell you like, how could you be late?
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I flew in for this podcast.
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By the way, it didn t happen for everyone.
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But let s say it did.
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You did fly in.
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I m simulating the same thing.
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So I could either talk to you like I m looking at you like you are the problem and you know what that would sound like.
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That was so rude and it can t happen again.
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we can talk to someone like me and that person are sitting on the same side of the table and together we are looking at a problem.
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And then we d say, hey, what went on there?
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And by the way, I know I m coming back next week and I just, I m sure together, like neither of us want this to happen.
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Did I not understand the time?
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Let s just figure this out.
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So when you say, when I hear parents say, when is time to punish?
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To me, punishment is a me against you framework.
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I never want to punish someone I like.
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I just don t like them in that moment.
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I ve never had the thought.
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I never want to, quote, give someone a consequence.
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Now, that doesn t mean there aren t boundaries, I m going to say.
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But when I hear that question, it makes me think about the mindset they re in.
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And so to me, the answer is that mindset isn t going to be effective for the goal I think you re trying to achieve, which is change.
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So we only pull interventions from the mindset bucket we re in.
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And so when I notice parents speaking in a way that I really feel like is in an unhelpful, ineffective mindset bucket, I don t think, what can we do in that bucket?
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I think, we re in the wrong bucket.
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Let s get you to a different one.
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I m happy to walk through what we do instead, because it s not just like kumbaya.
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So, let s say it s like my kid jumping on the couch, or let s say something more egregious.
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Let s say they punch someone, or they bullied someone, or whatever, something in this life.
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Right, let s say they bullied someone, and I was like, I really had evidence that my kid was like, going up to this kid, and they re like, you re a loser, and nobody likes you.
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I don t know, something like that.
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Someone filmed it, who knows, yeah.
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Exactly, sure, I guess this happened, okay.
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First I have to be like, how could this even be me and my kid against a problem?
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And I think the best way I do that, if I m realistic with myself, is just like, we re all capable of all the things.
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And I ll be like, what would make me say something so mean to someone?
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And I ll say it, what?
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And I might be like, well, maybe I felt really insecure, maybe I felt slighted by them, maybe I ve developed this role in a group where I feel like I have to be this tough guy, I don t know, but I guess that could happen.
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Then if I punish my kid, and I m like, I can t believe you did that, it s not within the values of our family, and here s your punishment.
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First of all, our kids respond to the version of themselves, we reflect back.
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So I m mirroring back to my kid, like, you re a bad kid.
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And then I m asking them to have behavior that would come from feeling like a good kid.
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Like, you have to feel good inside before you act good on the outside.
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Come on, let s go, right?
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You do.
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So again, just counterproductive.
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You have to feel good inside before you can act good on the outside.
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I know act good isn t like good English, but it just sounds better.
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No, it is, that s great.
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So if we feel bad inside,
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It s really hard to act good on the outside.
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That s right.
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Think about your boss always being like, you re late, and you re the worst, and you don t do good presentations.
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You come to work the next being like, I m going to crush it.
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You re paralyzed by the way they re reflecting back who you are, if they re an important person in your life, right?
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So what would I say to my kid?
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Let me just be clear.
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I m not saying, I would never say, oh, that probably was a hard day, and there were reasons why you did that.
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Yeah, you wouldn t validate their behavior.
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I wouldn t end there and say, now let s go out to dinner, okay?
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I wouldn t.
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I wouldn t be like, you know, cool.
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Here s what I d probably say.
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I heard about what happened at school.
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Let me just start there.
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Something happened at school today.
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Never ask a question to any human being that you know the answer to, because they know it s not a question.
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It s a criticism veiled with a question mark, and that is infuriating.
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So a question is only a question when you don t know the answer.
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So I would never start with that.
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I mean, I would try not to.
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I d say, I heard what happened at school.
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And I heard this thing, I saw this video, and before you go further, and I would say this, you might push back, you re a good kid.
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If I can t hold that I have a good kid who did a bad thing, why in heck would my kid be able to do that?
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Because in order to reflect about bad behavior and understand it and change, you have to hold on to good identity.
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If those two things are collapsed, there s no good centered self to do the reflecting about the behavior.
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The bad behavior became a bad person.
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You literally can t learn.
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If someone doesn t believe they re a good person, how do you build a good identity?
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I think you have to start by noticing all the ways you use your behavior to define who you are.
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It s what you did.
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And it s very important data to be like, what s going on for me?
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What am I seeking?
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What am I missing?
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But if you can t separate good identity, which does not justify bad behavior, it just creates a framework to understand and change bad behavior, you can t change.
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So I know you re a good kid.
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And, like, I know, like, that s not, at least in theory, the way you want to talk to other kids.
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Like, I know that, which lets me know also, like, there s a whole situation going on.
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I don t know if it s anything about that kid.
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I don t know if you ve had a bad week.
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I don t know if, I m just making this up, I don t know if you ve noticed I ve been saying some nasty words to your dads in our arguments, and you ve maybe, you know, been kind of stressed about that and picked up on that, right?
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Like, let s be honest, they pick up on everything.
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Or, you know, I don t know, but I know there s a reason.
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And let me be clear.
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That doesn t mean it s okay.
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And I don t even think I ve decided to, because I know you know it s not okay.
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But we re gonna work together to actually figure this out, because I know you re capable of being in a tricky situation with a kid, and acting in a way you re proud of.
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Yeah, that s what I would say.
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And then I would actually do it.
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And then I would, what we miss out is I would simulate it.
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Why would a kid say that?
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Maybe this kid is a new kid, and let s say my son was always best kid in basketball, and kind of head of the group, and all of a sudden this kid came in.
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He s a star.
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There are reasons why we do the things we do.
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It doesn t make them OK, but there are reasons.
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So I might say, look, we re going to do something.
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And then I would get a little, like, not harsh, but firm.
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And if my son s like, I don t know, can I just play Fortnite?
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I don t want to do this.
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I d be like, I m just going to say this one time.
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You literally have to go through this with me before you play Fortnite.
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That s not a threat.
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My most important job is helping you in life.
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And I know this is going to help.
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And so even if you roll your eyes, we will do this.
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That s your decision.
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It s firm, but it s not mean.
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It s a place of help.
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And then I say, we re going to do something.
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This is going to sound really weird, sweetie.
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We re going to go to the basketball court.
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And I m going to hackle you.
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I m going to say something mean.
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Wow.
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Put them through the experience.
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Sure.
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Isn t that what we do in sports?
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Yeah, you need to.
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Right, right.
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And so I m going to go.
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You need to prepare for these challenges.
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That s right.
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And what I d say to him is, I don t expect you in that situation to go like this.
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We get these most unrealistic conversations.
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Oh, I m happy.
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Yeah, exactly.
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And I want you to say to this kid, no.
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But I would prompt him in what I want you to do.
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I would get up, is instead of moving toward me.
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When I say that, you re going to turn your body
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Because if you teach kids when they re mad to give space, they re gonna literally have more time to make better decisions.
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They re not gonna react as quickly.
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And then if we want to get to the heart of why kids say mean things to bullies or something, they re having a hard time regulating something themselves.
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So I might give my kid a mantra, too, when they re walking away.
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And I always give mantras that get to the core.
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Stay calm, or yeah, I got this, or whatever.
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Maybe even like, write that, or I m valuable even when I m not the best basketball player.
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Wow, yeah.
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That s good.
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Get to the core.
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And we re going to practice that.
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I m going to make him practice it with me.
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I m so glad you re saying this, Dr. Becky, because I truly believe life is beautiful and wonderful, and there s so much magic and awe and so much to be grateful for.
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There s so much beauty in the world, and I think life is an incredible gift.
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But I also know life is so tough and there s a lot of tough moments, tough situations, tough seasons that we all go through.
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from childhood, adolescence to adulthood, and it can feel daunting.
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It can feel so heavy, so much pressure, so much confusion at times, that I truly believe what you just said is the key to living a beautiful life, is putting ourselves in the most uncomfortable, challenging scenarios and situations, and preparing for tough moments,
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so that when tough moments come, they re not so tough.
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I truly believe that.
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And I think a lot of people, if parents heard what you just said right now and actually did that,
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they would raise incredible human beings who are prepared for the sadness and the suffering that happens in the world frequently so that they could see things as a gift and beautiful and not suffer in the sadness.
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And I think sports gave me that opportunity, that gift.
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You know, you hear about Navy SEALs.
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Like, they have a game plan, but they prepare for all the worst scenarios.
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They don t just say, we re going to prepare for the best.
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The best outcome s going to happen.
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This is exactly what we re going to plan for, and it s going to happen.
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They ve got to plan for, what if I lose my weapon?
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What if I m trapped?
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What if this?
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What if I m upside down, hanging, and I can t, I m unconscious?
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How do I get out of a situation calmly?
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Yeah.
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Or with enough where I cannot freak out, but I can make a decision and act.
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And I think we ve lost the ability, most people have lost the ability on how to handle challenging situations and play more of a victim, unfortunately, than a victor in their own life.
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And what you just said right there, I hope parents listen to that and try it with their kid.
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It s probably the worst thing to hear, like, I m gonna take you to the basketball court and heckle you.
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But coaches would create scenarios where they would put loudspeakers on the fields and be like, we re gonna go into a tough,
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road game.
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And these fans are not going to be cheering you on.
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They re going to be screaming at you, booing at you, throwing stuff on the field, calling you names, trying to get under your skin.
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SPEAKER_00
They re going to punch you in bad places.
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They re going to do bad things to you.
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and you can play victim and say, ref, and all these people, why are they doing this to me?
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Or you can rise above it and be prepared for it.
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SPEAKER_00
And it s doing it in a loving context, I think, is what we need to do.
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Not like just putting them down and diminishing kids, but like saying, this is what we re gonna create, I love you, but I wanna create this scenario for you.
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SPEAKER_01
And I wouldn t like to me the heckling like it s gonna be humorous because my son s gonna be like my mom s like saying random stuff She doesn t even know how to you know, but you know someone and we someone said this to me It s not you know, and I think it s so powerful and I talk about a lot of pilot metaphors and you re talking the Navy SEALs That in moments of challenge we don t rise to the occasion we fall to the level of our training.
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Yes.
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I
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And this goes back to parents needing resources so that in those moments of challenge, their level of training has risen.
8
SPEAKER_00
Man, I m so excited about this.
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SPEAKER_00
One of the reasons why I wanted to have you on is because I want to be a parent one day.
8
SPEAKER_00
I want to have kids.
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SPEAKER_00
I want to be a parent.
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SPEAKER_00
I actually feel like I m at a season of life where I feel like I ve done enough healing work for myself where I don t think I will repeat certain patterns that my parents unconsciously did.
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SPEAKER_00
And my parents did a lot of good, but there s also things that I m like, huh, I don t know if that was the right way to build identity in myself and my siblings, right?
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SPEAKER_00
They built great identity in other ways, but in other ways maybe it was more challenging, and I had to learn how to unwind some of those things, integrate and heal maybe that inner child that was still sad, suffering, or insecure.
8
SPEAKER_00
And so I m trying to have as many conversations to prepare myself, not to be the perfect parent, because I don t think there is a perfect parent, but to be the best potential parent that I can be, knowing I m going to be flawed, knowing I m going to make mistakes, and knowing I m going to do something probably that is going to hurt my child at some point.
8
SPEAKER_00
But I think what you talked about in the beginning, having the resources and the tools is the first step for parents developing certain skills.
8
SPEAKER_00
And that might mean you have to get your book and read it 10 times until you start to pick up one or two skills that you ve never learned before.
8
SPEAKER_00
So I m just really grateful that you re here and I m grateful that four years ago, you decided to put your content online and bring this message to the masses because I think parents, I m not a parent, but I think parents are scared to raise bad kids.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I think parents feel insecure.
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They don t feel well equipped, especially with social media and
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you know, drugs in schools and shootings in schools and just insecurity, all the different stuff that s happening in schools that we don t have time to get into today.
8
SPEAKER_00
But I want people to get your book, Good Inside, a guide to becoming the parent you want to be.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I think a lot of people in general never felt like they re a good person growing up.
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SPEAKER_00
I speak for myself, but I feel like there s so many people that
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are craving to feel good.
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SPEAKER_00
And so again, I know that you re a teacher for parents to help their kids, but really you re a teacher for humans to heal and become better leaders in their life.
8
SPEAKER_00
So I want to acknowledge you for the gift you bring, the consistency you bring to add value to people with your content, with your book.
8
SPEAKER_00
I know you have an app that also helps parents learn these skills and tools with a lot of different AI and all these different things you guys are bringing into it.
8
SPEAKER_00
So I want people to follow you on social media.
8
SPEAKER_00
Your Instagram is amazing.
8
SPEAKER_00
I love it.
8
SPEAKER_00
Again, I m not a parent, but I love watching your content because I feel like it s relevant for becoming a better human being and a better leader in your life.
8
SPEAKER_00
I want people to get your book, Good Inside.
8
SPEAKER_00
I think it s required reading for every parent or wannabe parent.
8
SPEAKER_00
So get Good Inside.
8
SPEAKER_00
And how else can we be of support to you besides going to goodinside.com, getting a book and checking out your app?
8
SPEAKER_01
I mean, to me, conversations like this are just fantastic.
8
SPEAKER_01
I appreciate this.
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SPEAKER_01
Thank you for helping ideas get spread, because other people also help spread them.
8
SPEAKER_01
So I love the excitement you bring to these ideas, and this has been amazing.
8
SPEAKER_01
So I have no asks.
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SPEAKER_00
I appreciate it.
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SPEAKER_00
I feel like we re going to have to have you back on at some point because I have so many other questions I wanted to ask you.
8
SPEAKER_00
But this has been really powerful.
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SPEAKER_00
Even just those three things you talked about, I m so glad we re talking about this.
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SPEAKER_00
I believe you.
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SPEAKER_00
Tell me more.
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SPEAKER_00
It s really powerful.
8
SPEAKER_00
And that s also something you could do in an intimate relationship.
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You know, when you don t want to have challenging conversations, if you actually did that with your partner, man, you re going to feel a sense of peace and relief on the other side because you went through the challenging conversation together as opposed to avoiding it or being distracted or whatever it might be.
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And that s hard when your attachment style is insecure or avoidance.
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So you ve got to learn to heal so you can have a more secure attachment style in all your relationships with intimacy and with your kids.
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So much to always learn, but again, we ll have to have you back on to talk about more.
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A couple of final questions for you to finish the conversation.
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This is our rapid fire, no, I m just kidding.
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I m just kidding.
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Should I do pushups?
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Get ready.
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This is a question I ask everyone at the end.
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It s called the three truths.
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So imagine you get to live as long as you want to live, Dr. Becky, but it s your last day on earth many years away.
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And for whatever reason, in this hypothetical scenario, you have to take all of your content with you.
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All of your Instagram content, whatever content you create in the future, your books, this interview is gone.
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So no one has access to anything you ve ever put out in the world.
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But on the last day, you get to leave three things behind, three things you know to be true that you would leave behind for us to have access to.
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What would be those three truths or three lessons that you would share?
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Okay, I have two, so let s see how I get to the third.
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One is that we are good inside, and our good identity is separate from any bad behavior.
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Number two is it is never too late to change.
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And the single most important relationship strategy in the world is repair.
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And three is that the only real strategy you have with your kid is connection.
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Yeah, we didn t even get into how to repair, which you talk about in your book.
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So that s another reason we couldn t get your book and to have you back on to really dive into it.
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And to listen to my TED Talk, because that s what it s about.
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Exactly.
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It s about really how to repair.
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Yes.
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when there s a breakdown or when there s an upset, when you scream at your kid, when you yell at them.
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Final question, what s your definition of greatness?
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I think it s a combination of internal accomplishment and external impact.
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So if I think about greatness, I think a lot about this concept or feeling of being lit up inside.
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It s how I feel talking to you and talking about these ideas, putting them out there.
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But I think greatness is when you feel so lit up inside by something that it drives you and so much that you can t contain it.
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And so it kind of explodes out of you with joy and authenticity and belief so much that it ends up igniting.
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something that is in someone else and lights them up.
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And it has this kind of generative movement to it.
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Wow.
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That s pretty cool.
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Dr. Becky, thanks so much.
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Appreciate you.
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Thank you.
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Thank you so much.
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Amazing.
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I hope today s episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness.
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Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today s show with all the important links.
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And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as add free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel on apple podcast.
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If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend.
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Leave us a review over on Apple podcast and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis Howes.
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I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better.
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And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness Newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com slash newsletter.
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And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.
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And now it s time to go out there and do something great.