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Welcome, welcome, welcome to not Armchair Anonymous.
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You can t listen to this episode because we re not releasing it.
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So it was so foul.
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It was so bad.
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So we decided not to release it.
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No, that s not the case.
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You re about to hear an introduction for a new show we re doing called Yearbook with Chad Sanders, who we had on the podcast.
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We love and adore.
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He s so smart and talented and creative.
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And he tells this incredible story about one year in his high school life.
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Yes, we ve been working on it for a couple years altogether.
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Yes.
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And we re ready to show you.
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Yes, we re so happy with it.
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He did a great job.
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And so what you ll hear first is a conversation about how we got into doing this with him.
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And then you will hear the very first episode of the show and they will be on every Friday.
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On our feed.
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Yep.
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And Armchair Anonymous will be back next week.
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Yeah, so you ll have two episodes every Friday for the next seven weeks.
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Congrats.
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Well done.
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Although I m trying to put mine in a different way, and it s hard.
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So that you can keep your top knot.
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Yeah.
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Do we call that a top knot?
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Sure.
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Top knot.
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Top chef.
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Top knot chef.
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Tell me more about your sleeping.
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It s just been bad.
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But I mean last night specifically.
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Did you have candy last night?
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I had one piece of candy.
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What one?
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Twizzlers.
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Oh, Twizzlers wouldn t be my pick.
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I went Twizzlers because I m never buying that.
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Well, that s an interesting.
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I m never seeking it out, but I do enjoy it, so if it s there.
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Chad, if you were only allowed one candy treat last night on Halloween, what would it have been?
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Sour Patch Kids.
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Wow, you guys are both freaks.
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Twizzlers and Sour Patch Kids.
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For Halloween only, I like chocolate in my normal life.
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You just have all the options, you got Butterfinger, you got Snickers, KitKat, whatchamacallit.
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I don t like Snickers.
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Three Musketeers, Milky Way.
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I do like Three Musketeers and KitKat and Twix.
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Mmm.
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And Reese s.
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But Twizzler.
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when I went to Whistler.
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Do you eat candy, Dax?
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You re a strapping lad, man.
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I knew I was gonna feel this when I saw you, but I was like, Dax, you look really strong.
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Oh, wow.
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Dax, you look great, man.
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Oh, thank you.
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Thank you.
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Well, I gotta make up for the fact that I m not as cute as you.
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I gotta do something with the area I can control.
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You re cute, Dax.
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Get out of here.
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You re the cutest, I know.
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Oh, right, there s a moratorium on- Yeah, we re trying not to say that anymore about ourselves.
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What, cuteness?
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That you re cute?
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That we don t like our looks.
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Because we ve realized it s gotten to a nauseating level.
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Or it s just like we ve talked about it enough.
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We beat the dead horse to death.
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Yeah.
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No, I get it.
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Yeah.
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On some level, we think it s really relatable because nobody likes how they look.
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I mean, even we all know gorgeous people that don t like how they look.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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I saw many driving here today.
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Yeah.
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L.A.
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 s full of them.
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Mm hmm.
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So to recap, we interviewed you February 2021.
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Oh, 2021.
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It was COVID and it was the most lovely interview.
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I liked you so much.
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And I did something that I ve never done with a guest, which is I reached out to you afterwards and I was like, you don t need a mentor, but if you have any questions at any point through any of this, I would just love to be available for you.
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You slid, you slid in my DMs.
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Is that where I approached you?
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You did.
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Oh my God.
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Not what you were looking for in your DMs.
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Yeah.
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It was one of those moments where the thing that I was hoping would happen happened.
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I was probably going to try to follow up with you and establish some kind of connection if you were open to it.
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Yeah.
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Which can be hit or miss with people.
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You know, people are busy.
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Like I went, I think I might have even gone to DM you and the DM was sitting there.
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So yeah, it was really, it was special.
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I appreciate it.
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Yeah, so then we just chatted.
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Yeah.
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And look.
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Ding, ding, ding.
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I m Chad.
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Oh, Chad.
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Thank you for picking up on that.
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Sorry, I missed that.
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It s so early for me.
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It was a wild night last night.
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Sober Halloween.
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Yeah.
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It went hard.
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But we started chatting and then I had no like selfish motivation to get you under the umbrella.
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But then when you seemed open to that, I was like, oh, well, that would be incredible.
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And I would love to do that.
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We both would love to do that with you.
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So then we started talking about what would we do?
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And I can t even really remember how we stumbled upon this.
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You came up with some ideas for us.
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I did.
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I had, you know, I could pretend like I
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just magically came up with those in the moment, but I, when I, my book was coming out, which is how I ended up on the show.
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Black magic.
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Yes.
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And still read it.
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Oh, still buy it.
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Oh yeah.
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Yes.
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Please do that.
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It s still available.
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It s still, you know, kind of buzzing and doing its thing, but I wanted to have, you know, people give you advice, like have your stuff ready to go when windows open.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And I pitched, I think I might ve pitched you all maybe like three or four concepts.
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Uh-huh.
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And as it happens, you all were just like, nope, that s the one, ding, that one right there.
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Well, there was some really weird overlap, because it was also, one of your ideas was loosely related to an idea I also wanted to explore.
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Right.
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So I thought, oh, well, this would be amazing.
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And then,
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In the dream outcome, you would do your version.
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And then I would do my version at some point.
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And Monica would do her version.
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And we d have guests.
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We have seasons.
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So we have collectively all created this together.
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Yes.
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And we ll produce this together.
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And should this all go as we would hope, we ll get to hear other people s story of the same era.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And I would add all of that has truly taken place over the last two and a half years.
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You know, this has been, it s not one of those things where it s like someone starts something two years ago and then they finish it two years later in a month.
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It has evolved over these last two and a half years, including my going down to Maryland for a month to live there in 2022.
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Yeah.
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Among the many of the people who are featured
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in the show, so.
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And when we talked ideas, there were easy versions and there were hard versions, and this was certainly the hardest version.
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This is a full-on investigative journalist piece that took months and months and tons of interviews and really submerging yourself back in the place the story takes place.
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It is.
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One of you had what I thought is the best casing for what exactly this is, like the Hollywood pitch version, which is serial meets Friday Night Lights.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Probably in the reverse order in terms of the proportions.
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It is more high school nostalgia than it is true crime.
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Yes.
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But it has elements of both.
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Yes.
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It does.
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And then an element that appealed to me greatly was, I think all of us have a story.
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I certainly have a story of the year I became who I am.
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Like the person that s still here.
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The day I kind of figured, not the day, but the year that I figured out, oh, I see my lane finally.
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I know what my niche is and I m going to commit to this and invest in this niche.
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And for me, it s seventh grade.
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That was the year.
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My identity was cemented.
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My identity was formed.
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Yeah, like I was trying a bunch of different stuff on and then I met Aaron and I was like, oh no, this is what I am all about.
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And for you, what grade was that?
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It was this one.
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It was 11th grade, which is...
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what is chronicled here in this piece and it was that for a few reasons.
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The set pieces here are my best friend died that year in a terrible tragic car collision that I m still processing to this day every time someone dies or every time I lose someone in any way.
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But this person was a soulmate.
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Yeah, I mean, she was my friend.
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When people say best friend, I know people use the term loosely.
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I knew her from birth.
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Her older sister and my older sister were in pre-K together.
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And so we were just put together as, you know, friends.
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And like you said, soulmates, like the way that you two are and layered on top of that is that I, as a kid, like I had a crush on her and an unexplored crush.
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We get to really deep dive into that during this whole process.
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One of the beautiful things, sorry to go on tandem, but that s what we do.
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One of the beautiful things about this show is you discovering things in real time.
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And that was our hope, right?
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Is that, yeah, it s not just look at this year of mine.
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It s you looking back at the year and understanding, oh, was I right about
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some of this stuff, or, oh, wow, I had this thought then, but now in retrospect, I can see, actually, it was this.
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Like, it s a real true exploration that I think so many people can relate to.
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Well, yeah, you have the story in your mind, but then you go start talking to other characters in the story, and it turns out, well, maybe that s not the same story.
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And then you got to start kind of wondering, huh,
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That s interesting.
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And then you re learning stuff real time.
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Yeah.
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And you know, they are not just ancillary characters.
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Like they are the people who were right there at ground zero.
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So to speak, we re talking about Alicia s parents.
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That s Alicia is the deceased.
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We re talking about best friends, my own parents, my own sister.
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A part of this story is also that the tragedy of Alicia s death is immediately followed by my high school
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school basketball team, which I m a part of, going to the state.
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I ll kind of trail off how far we get, but having a hugely successful season.
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Going on a run.
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Yeah, and being the Beatles in our hometown, and I m supposed to be a teenager processing grief, and all of a sudden I m thrown into this hyper-masculine.
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Fame bubble.
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Yeah, like little fame bubble.
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It s just a, as high school is, it s just like such a concoction of feelings that goes crazy.
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And throughout it is so many questions of identity.
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Yes.
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Like we re saying, these are the years we think we kind of cemented our identity.
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And so, yeah, really figuring out who you are in the world is so relatable.
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I think when we are capturing these particular years for this series, like for me, like you said, is 11th grade, for you, 7th grade.
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The reason why I chose this year, and I didn t even choose it, it s just the story that I keep replaying over and over and over again in my head to this day, I m a 35 year old now, I was 15 at the time, so it s 20 years, and it s because even when things happen to me now, I m reaching back into moments from that year
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for my identity.
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As an example, if I get bullied today, I think about a moment that is in this show, and how I responded then as a 15 year old, and I try to go recover some of the bravery I had then.
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If something happens in my life that is racial, like if I m in a white environment, and I m a black person.
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Yeah, like.
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Well, it s a diverse crowd.
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It s okay.
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But like, you know, you come in the Dax Shepard household and you re just like a monster truck outside.
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I feel like it formed me this year.
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And we re also, you know, we re bearing a lead here, which is that also I was one of many witnesses to a very terrible crime, a murder that year in front of my high school.
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You got your whole life in one year.
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Yeah, exactly.
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Yeah.
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I got a whole life in one year.
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That s well put.
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Yeah.
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Every single experience you re going to have like deep heartbreak of horrible, horrific violence, fucking glory on the basketball court.
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Yes.
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Anything life could throw at you, threw at you that year.
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Yeah, and like, you know, that s the year that I lost my virginity.
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That s the year that I got a driver s license.
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We start driving around, you know, we re a bunch of knucklehead 16 year old dudes on a basketball team, like with car keys now, you know, going to house parties and stuff like that.
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Another part of the context of this show that I think is important is I had never experienced death before.
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I had never encountered death in a real way.
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I had lost relatives who I was not close to.
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I had never lost someone close to me.
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But in the national context, the Pentagon in 9-11 had just been a few years ago, and
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You know, I grew up in Silver Spring, Maryland, which is very close to the Pentagon.
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Columbine High School had happened in 1999.
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So that was just a few years prior.
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So there was high school violence happening.
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It was starting to enter the zeitgeist.
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And then the DC sniper, which I don t know if people remember who aren t from DC, but like, yeah, there was five minute walk from my high school.
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There was someone was a part of that.
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The father and son combo?
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I think it was a stepfather and son.
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The stepfather, yeah.
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The wicked stepfathers.
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Ding, ding, ding.
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And I just remember during that season of life, even with the DC Sniper, kids couldn t go to the prom.
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Kids couldn t go to football practice.
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Football practice was happening in gyms.
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People were running around from the car to the gas tank and back, hiding, ducking underneath windows and stuff.
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But you re a kid, so it all just seemed like, it almost seemed like play play.
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Pretend.
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Yeah, it seemed like for fun.
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Well, you re at apex immortality.
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Yes.
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Exactly.
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You might witness a bunch of people get killed around you, but even your mind like, but yeah, but I ll witness that and I ll be the one that gets out.
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Cause I m the main story.
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You kill the hero of the story.
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You re the character in the video game.
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It s too early.
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This is all happening to cultivate my story.
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Exactly.
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And I would say going back and to give some of the tapestry of the show, the story is told through the eyes and through conversations between me and people who were all there.
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I would say maybe 25 to 30 people who were all there.
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In having those conversations, I learn how much I am not special in that that year stuck with people.
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I did these interviews right after COVID.
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In fact, well, right after COVID.
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Depending on how you look at it, COVID is still going on, but.
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It ended in Tennessee on April 40th.
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Okay, great.
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I m so glad that s behind us.
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Like, you know, there are people who had lost relatives in COVID, who are three months removed from that experience, and now talking about how losing Alicia back then is affecting the ways that they process grief to this day.
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And I would add also, like, this is not a sob piece.
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It s not somber.
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I want to make that really, really clear that when we first started this process, we were so explicit.
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This cannot be super saccharine.
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This can t be a sob story, even though there s tons of sadness in it.
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There s tons of light.
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High school s fucking fun.
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It is.
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It s crazy.
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And we get to have that too.
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Yeah, I would say the tone that I have now is the tone of the show.
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Which for us, luckily, works perfectly with ours, which is there s some poignance, there s some irreverence, there s some fun, there s some humor, and then there s some super real, real moments.
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I guess everybody thinks their hometown is special, maybe.
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I don t know, but I know that I feel that way.
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There are 25 or so people whose voices are in this thing.
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I would say 20 of them I still talk to on a semi-regular basis.
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You know, I still have Laleh who s in there.
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She used to run like the fashion show, Fashion Exeter High School.
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We went to an art high school.
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I just called her on the way here to be like, should I wear this funky dog chain necklace or should I wear it?
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Cause she like, she styles me for stuff.
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The guys on the basketball team, I still FaceTime with those dudes every day.
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I still play basketball with them.
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Alicia s parents, the way that I dropped in on her house to go do these interviews, I could drop in there to get dinner any time I go back to Maryland.
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Either that s just circumstantial or these events of this year actually truly did bind us in a way that is something.
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I actually decided before I came here today, I ve, this is a new thing in my life right now.
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I was like, I m going to do my job, but I spend so much time talking and writing about race.
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Like I m going to leave it in the work a little bit.
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And like, you know, who really wrestled with that and was a big portion of our interview is Jordan Peele.
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Really?
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Yes.
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Because here he does the most profound work on it all of all time in the movies, for sure.
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In my opinion.
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Yeah.
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And then there s this maybe internal poll.
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I can t make everything about race yet.
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He s so good at talking about race.
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Should he not, you know, like just the, the, the internal dilemma of it.
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it can be a feature if you so choose to use it.
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Like I think I m among the best writers at that particular subject genre when it comes to black experiences.
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Like I m not a social scientist or anything like that, but like pretty good at describing experience.
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And it s funny because something I will never forget that you also, there s a couple of things from when you reached out to me, Dax, that I liked.
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I got a hunch of what one you re going to bring up.
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Do you know this one?
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I mean, you said to me, you were like, I can t remember how you said it.
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I want you to have legs long beyond the moment of blackness is what s in the zeitgeist.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like, I want you to have a long voice.
1
SPEAKER_02
And it resonated because it was already in my heart.
1
SPEAKER_02
You know what I mean?
1
SPEAKER_02
And you knew that.
1
SPEAKER_02
You could see me.
1
SPEAKER_00
You saw it.
1
SPEAKER_02
You were like, oh, this dude, he can do something that is going to be, I don t want to say bigger, but has more dimensions than just writing and talking about race.
1
SPEAKER_02
That s the fucking both sides of the coin with you, Dax, which is like most people would not be bold enough to say that to me.
1
SPEAKER_02
Right.
1
SPEAKER_02
But it was something I needed to hear in that moment.
1
SPEAKER_02
And so I don t know what you do with that.
1
SPEAKER_02
Like, it s just who you are.
1
SPEAKER_01
What I felt was just remember the stories you re telling.
1
SPEAKER_01
They re very human stories.
1
SPEAKER_01
And especially when I m listening to your year that changes your life, like the stuff with masculinity was so my experience.
1
SPEAKER_01
And you talked about it openly when I interviewed you, which was so fun is that you re like, I, you know, I was worn, like, don t get in here and start laughing with the white folk.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I m like, yeah, you have to carry that pressure.
1
SPEAKER_01
I have this weird.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
Hillbilly blue collar, fuck rich people.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like I got a thing too.
1
SPEAKER_01
I got to hold up.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
And it s like, we all got these fucking things we re holding.
1
SPEAKER_01
We re trying to make peace with all these elements in our heart might not match what context we were born into.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I think you almost uniquely wear the complexity of those things that are at odds on your person, like you specifically.
1
SPEAKER_02
in a way that I think, in a way that I really do think draws people in.
1
SPEAKER_02
Like I m not here to butter up you two.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I only got one other nice thing to say to y all.
1
SPEAKER_02
Let me just get, let me just fucking get out the way.
1
SPEAKER_02
The thing is like, I know you guys probably know this about what you ve built here, but this is, this is something I ve looked forward to since February, 2021.
1
SPEAKER_02
My book tour took place in my office in New York, on Zoom screens.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that s a bummer.
2
SPEAKER_01
And you guys made it feel big.
2
SPEAKER_01
You guys are like Madison Square Garden for thinking, talking writer people.
2
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
2
SPEAKER_02
So awesome.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m just, it s really cool for me to actually get to be in the place.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m thankful that y all invited me.
2
SPEAKER_01
And Monica has, I don t know how much Monica has portrayed that I, I m like in Monica s hip pocket all the time.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m like, cause I m like,
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, I m excited.
2
SPEAKER_00
He s advocating for himself and is excited and is ready and we are too.
2
SPEAKER_00
So we re happy to have you.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay, thank you.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s the last thing I m going to say.
2
SPEAKER_02
Well, and then I would like to compliment you.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like you re a real artist.
2
SPEAKER_02
You have a real point of view and it needs to be serviced and you shan t compromise it, nor should you.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I know that you and I have a similar,
2
SPEAKER_02
I ll say for me what it s derived from is an insecurity, which is like notes don t sit well with me.
2
SPEAKER_02
Notes shake my own confidence and like I m barely teetering on the thought that I m worthy of telling a story and other people listen.
2
SPEAKER_02
And when I hear notes, it starts to shake that already very shaky foundation I m on.
2
SPEAKER_02
Sure.
2
SPEAKER_02
And so I just maybe projected, but I think we have the same sensitivity.
2
SPEAKER_02
And so when, whenever we had ideas, I knew I was sending it to someone similar to myself.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I was always really, really blown away with your willingness to, if not take it, deduce what was being said and run it through your filter and do some pivots or do some adjustments.
2
SPEAKER_02
I appreciate that.
2
SPEAKER_02
It was really impressive.
2
SPEAKER_02
Every time you went back at it, it got better and better.
2
SPEAKER_02
And we mostly, I d like to say for people who are about to listen to it, Monica and I listened to them together up here.
2
SPEAKER_02
And after every one, we were like, wow, it s already like, it s already pretty much there without a lot of work.
2
SPEAKER_00
We are really, really happy with it.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it, you know, this gets revealed, I think, but we did do a pivot.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
in the middle of this where we were like, I think we need another dimension here and we need to hear something else.
2
SPEAKER_00
And we need to explore another piece that isn t getting explored.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that was a little bit further on in the process.
2
SPEAKER_00
And to your credit, you agreed.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, because it meant a lot more work for you.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I think it made- And a lot more awkward questions.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes, it s uncomfortable.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s uncomfortable what you ve had to do.
2
SPEAKER_00
We listened to the last episode and we re just- Crying.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and thrilled.
2
SPEAKER_00
Just so thrilled.
2
SPEAKER_00
It feels so, not to like pat ourselves on the back,
2
SPEAKER_00
It feels so armchair expert to me.
2
SPEAKER_00
It feels so much under our umbrella of everything we do, which is like, life is fucking complicated and nuanced, and there s no good or bad, right or wrong, angel, devil.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, you really get to see all the pieces.
2
SPEAKER_00
We re just really happy with it.
2
SPEAKER_01
I am too, and this is a very precious story to me.
2
SPEAKER_01
It involves the life and death of my best friend.
2
SPEAKER_01
My mom is on this project.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know what I m saying?
2
SPEAKER_01
It needed to be handled as something precious.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I do think, Dax, to your point, part of that artist impulse, that storyteller impulse, that is part insecurity for sure.
2
SPEAKER_01
The impulse is such that you want to get it out.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that s why I ve been chasing, chasing, chasing Monica so much over these last, like, not that she was running, but that s why I was just, you know, you want to get it out, even if it s not perfect, even if it s at 70% of what it could be.
2
SPEAKER_01
And you all were very thoughtful and measured about making sure that it got to what it should be.
2
SPEAKER_01
And you didn t, in your notes, you didn t ask me to different ties anything.
2
SPEAKER_01
you were opening up new subject headings that needed to be explored so that maybe that 10th person out of 10 could really feel themselves in this project and see themselves there.
2
SPEAKER_02
Well, I hope it was obvious as you gave us the notes to give you, you stumbled upon some things that deserved a lot more.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it wasn t known at the beginning and we were just open to the idea that things will present themselves and they did.
2
SPEAKER_02
When magic happened, I think we were just always committed to circling that and building that out a little bit.
2
SPEAKER_02
And it was incredibly fun.
2
SPEAKER_02
It was so fun to do that with you.
2
SPEAKER_02
That s the most kind of development we ve done on the show.
2
SPEAKER_00
It is, it is.
2
SPEAKER_00
And most like definitely doc style.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, we have been talking since the beginning of our show when we started adding shows
2
SPEAKER_00
doing something more serialized and a little more serial-esque.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so this did feel like the perfect opportunity to do that.
2
SPEAKER_00
But it was scary.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like, we don t really know.
2
SPEAKER_00
We re just, we just talk.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like we don t really know how to do that.
2
SPEAKER_00
And is it going to kind of like when you enter any documentary style, anything, is it going to be anything?
2
SPEAKER_00
We don t know.
2
SPEAKER_00
And we got really lucky.
2
SPEAKER_02
I ll go even further.
2
SPEAKER_02
It was almost the most ideal experience listening to a podcast ever, because let s say we were listening to Serial and on episode one, something popped up and I was like, God, I d kill to know more about that.
2
SPEAKER_02
I don t have no say in that.
2
SPEAKER_02
This was like, it was participant listening.
2
SPEAKER_02
So it was like, oh my, wait, wait, wait, wait.
2
SPEAKER_02
There s so much there.
2
SPEAKER_02
I want to know more about that.
2
SPEAKER_01
And to be clear on that, Monica already said it, but I just want to rehash, that meant sometimes three months of going back and having like 10 conversations with people and calling around and to the high school quarterback at this school and someone who was on the palms team at that school and saying, does anybody know how I can reach so-and-so and being thrown around to people s grandmothers and principals.
2
SPEAKER_01
And some of those people ended up in the show.
2
SPEAKER_01
So it wasn t like, just go.
2
SPEAKER_00
It was like a Washington Post.
2
SPEAKER_00
You got a lot of no s.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
You did a lot of chasing to no end to some extent, but a lot of that came out of that too.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_01
And to speak to the no s really quickly, the no s came because this is not processed.
2
SPEAKER_01
20 years later, people in my hometown, Silver Spring, Maryland, are still processing.
2
SPEAKER_01
People s lives are still affected here.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so to that point, like we also wanted to be thoughtful to make sure that we were going to create something here that is journalistically, you know, has its integrity and honest and goes in there and goes there, but that s also going to help people process and not send them backwards, basically.
2
SPEAKER_02
Well, the fact that you did it is proof that you haven t processed it.
2
SPEAKER_02
You wouldn t have taken it on if you understood everything about it.
2
SPEAKER_02
That would be so boring.
2
SPEAKER_01
When I say I think about those events every single day, still, I am telling a full-hearted truth.
2
SPEAKER_01
I talk to Alicia in prayer, still, as a 35-year-old.
2
SPEAKER_01
I only knew her until she was 15.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I know almost everybody on the show better than I ever really even got to know her.
2
SPEAKER_01
I only now get to know her better through doing the show.
2
SPEAKER_02
We already mentioned it, but it s so true that I m sure in your mind, your story is so unique.
2
SPEAKER_02
Mine is so unique, but the nostalgia is so, it s so catchy.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s all the same.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like you re just, you re young and you re figuring out, and yeah, she was only 15, but those first 15 years are much longer than the next 30.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right?
2
SPEAKER_01
They occupy a bigger percentage of your memory and everything.
2
SPEAKER_01
They re so important.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think everybody knows the scene that is walking into the coolest house party they ever got invited to, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
They finally get invited to that party.
2
SPEAKER_01
You walk in either by yourself, God forbid,
2
SPEAKER_01
probably with a couple friends.
2
SPEAKER_01
You get in there and you look around and it feels like you re in the arena.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s like, where do I stand?
2
SPEAKER_01
Who do I talk to?
2
SPEAKER_01
What do I drink?
2
SPEAKER_01
What do I smoke?
2
SPEAKER_01
What s the right alchemy of being myself and being someone else that s gonna work for me here?
2
SPEAKER_01
It s a process that you never perfect.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think the kids who are all the way at the top of the food chain, we re still like, well, you re at that party assuming everyone else knows the playbook.
2
SPEAKER_02
And you never stop to go,
2
SPEAKER_02
to like, no, everyone in here is as uncertain as I am about what I m supposed to do next, which is why people do crazy shit at those parties.
2
SPEAKER_02
One guy s like, Oh, I bet if I jump off the roof of this thing in the pool, everyone will like me.
2
SPEAKER_02
I, you know, no one knows what they re doing.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s so funny and endearing.
2
SPEAKER_02
Oh, and then there s the fighting and the masculinity.
2
SPEAKER_02
Oh, I just love it so much.
2
SPEAKER_01
Can we talk about the masculinity a little bit?
2
SPEAKER_01
Because I m, you know, it s not over.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s not over now.
2
SPEAKER_01
A couple weeks ago, I was playing basketball, and a woman jumped in with us because she worked at the gym, and we were short on bodies, and she was good.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like, she was very good.
2
SPEAKER_01
She guards me.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m usually the smallest guy out there.
2
SPEAKER_01
And, you know, I did the wrong combination of something.
2
SPEAKER_01
I was probably too physical.
2
SPEAKER_01
And she erupted on me.
2
SPEAKER_01
And some of the things she said to me, she called me the F word.
2
SPEAKER_01
She, you know, yells that I get no pussy.
2
SPEAKER_01
And she s like-
2
SPEAKER_01
She and she s like you got feminine energy and she like really went and I m and and it kind of like, you know, even today I was literally just staring at the floor waiting for it to be over, you know, because I didn t know what else to do.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think Dax I ve heard you talk about things like this.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like I am
2
SPEAKER_01
really pretty solid in my masculinity at this point.
2
SPEAKER_01
But I also know some of those things are sort of true.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like the part about me having something that is like a femininity in my spirit somewhere, it s real.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m a Pisces.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I think it is a good thing.
3
SPEAKER_02
Listen, this is another thing I really related to while I was listening, it was like, girls liked you.
3
SPEAKER_00
That kind of becomes very obvious.
3
SPEAKER_02
And dudes don t like that girls like you.
3
SPEAKER_02
And girls like you because you do have a bit of a feminine energy and you have a safety to you and you feel emotional.
3
SPEAKER_02
And this is what I mean, and it d be easy to conflate the two.
3
SPEAKER_02
He s super communicative.
3
SPEAKER_02
Most boys are not super communicative.
3
SPEAKER_02
They don t want to look you in the eyes.
3
SPEAKER_02
They want to walk next to you and chat.
3
SPEAKER_02
So that s what s feminine about it, is that you ll sit down with a woman, you ll look her in the eyes, and you can talk for three hours.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I think that s really unique for boys.
3
SPEAKER_01
There s an emotive connection there.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_02
They re talking to you the way they re able to talk to their girlfriends as opposed to when they re talking to guys like, yeah, yeah, let s go.
3
SPEAKER_02
Uh huh.
3
SPEAKER_02
I don t know.
3
SPEAKER_02
Let s go to that party.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, no, that s right.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Monica, do you corroborate?
3
SPEAKER_01
I always use the word corroborate and sometimes I m like, am I using this
3
SPEAKER_01
but I don t care.
3
SPEAKER_01
Do you corroborate this point of view on like, yeah, people throw femininity at boys as an insult.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like they do it to hurt them, but they re commenting on something I think that is generally aspirational, which is like, maybe you re a little more gentle.
3
SPEAKER_01
Maybe you are, you re a better listener.
3
SPEAKER_00
Sensitive in some way.
3
SPEAKER_01
EQ, high EQ.
3
SPEAKER_00
These are assets.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s a disservice to women to throw that as an insult to men.
3
SPEAKER_02
It doesn t serve them in the long run.
3
SPEAKER_00
You have to perpetuate that.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s a compliment.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I m sure that you were the same.
3
SPEAKER_02
I could talk on the phone to girls for three hours straight.
3
SPEAKER_02
You couldn t get me off the phone.
3
SPEAKER_01
I love talking on the phone.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m so sad people don t like talking on the phone anymore.
3
SPEAKER_00
I know you do like to call.
3
SPEAKER_01
Okay, I actually wanted to talk about it.
3
SPEAKER_01
Most people who have, oh, did you hear the voice crack?
3
SPEAKER_01
Feminine.
3
SPEAKER_01
Most people who listen to all of you all s stuff, all of your canon at this point, have no, I feel like I have the unique experience of getting to relate to Monica as Monica the executive, which has been quite, it s been very enjoyable to witness Monica the executive because, you know, Monica, you re so,
3
SPEAKER_01
You do have such a disarming presence.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re an excellent listener.
3
SPEAKER_01
You do everything Dax just said that he and I do basically, but better.
3
SPEAKER_01
You look people in the eye, you listen, and you ask really good questions, and you re disarming.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re very comforting.
3
SPEAKER_01
Also,
3
SPEAKER_01
you have the executive function, which is like you are not to be sped up.
3
SPEAKER_01
If I call you 10 times and text you 10 times in a week, you re going to respond as you think is responsible.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re not going to like make bad decisions for the business or for the show because I m like so thirsty, you know, and I think that s a.
3
SPEAKER_01
I just want to chronicle it here because it s a part of you that nobody s going to get to watch you be an executive, because that s not something you really like broadcast.
3
SPEAKER_01
She s a boss.
3
SPEAKER_01
In the simplest terms, she s a big time boss.
3
SPEAKER_02
I want to be more like that.
3
SPEAKER_02
And she bosses me around too, which people don t get to see.
3
SPEAKER_02
Well, I guess they get to hear it a little bit, but.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s very nice, thank you.
3
SPEAKER_00
The best compliment I ever got, I don t know if I ve said it on here before, but Emma, our assistant, when she took on the role of starting to answer emails and stuff that I was answering, I was like, can you just make sure you answer all the emails first, and then if you need me to step in, like if they re pushing back on you, I mean, we have a lot of publicists and stuff, they re pushing back on you, CC me, I ll step in.
3
SPEAKER_00
And she was like, the way you respond to these publicists
3
SPEAKER_00
is so both cutthroat and nice that there s nothing for them to do.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s nothing left to do.
3
SPEAKER_02
I think it s fair but firm as hell.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Fair and firm.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I mean, it s just direct.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s just very direct.
3
SPEAKER_01
You leave so very little space for misunderstanding or like squirreling.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know how people will try to squirrel around your answer?
3
SPEAKER_01
Nope, that was the answer.
3
SPEAKER_01
Here s a reveal for you, which is that you all know how it is.
3
SPEAKER_01
Two years in, I m like, Jesus, is the project gonna come out?
3
SPEAKER_01
It s a baby of mine.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s gonna come out.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I called Rachel, who is your bestie, a couple weeks ago.
3
SPEAKER_01
Shout out Rachel Field.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, Rachel, she will give me the truth and she ll also be caring and giving the truth.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I was like,
3
SPEAKER_00
She s a boss too.
3
SPEAKER_01
She s a boss.
3
SPEAKER_01
And she was like, just call Monica and just be totally honest with her and she will give you the truth.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that phone call happened like a couple of weeks ago and you did.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then we re just trying to protect your money.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s literally all it is.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s all it is.
3
SPEAKER_02
Like we don t want you to have done all this work and make no money.
3
SPEAKER_02
So it s only singularly been about that.
3
SPEAKER_02
We think the show is great and we would have loved to have released it immediately as well.
3
SPEAKER_02
But
3
SPEAKER_00
Everyone s doing their part, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
You are doing your part in protecting your project and looking out for it and checking in and doing all the things.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m doing my part, Dax is doing his part, Rob s doing his part.
3
SPEAKER_00
Everyone s doing exactly what they should be doing and that s great.
3
SPEAKER_00
And there s inherent friction.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s gonna be there.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s part of the process.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s part of it and everyone just has to accept it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And as long as you do, it s a great working relationship.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, I ve done a few, I have done another scripted project, same amount of episodes and at a giant studio with like gazillion resources and budgets and all that stuff.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I will just tell you.
3
SPEAKER_01
This experience has been so much more enjoyable than that experience.
3
SPEAKER_01
And for a million different reasons.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I bet it would surprise people also to just know how much your hands are in your business.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like you two, Rob, like it s not like 10 other execs floating around and shit.
3
SPEAKER_02
We re aiming for that.
3
SPEAKER_02
We re just not there yet.
3
SPEAKER_02
No, you say that, but we can t.
3
SPEAKER_00
We can t.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that s your baby, but this is our baby.
3
SPEAKER_00
The whole thing is.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s really too hard to even, I even thought recently, I was like, I think it s good enough.
3
SPEAKER_00
I don t think I need to go in and do the thing I do on every single show, which is just like, maybe we take out this word, which to me changes the whole, you know, I think I can let a little bit of that go.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then an hour later, I was like, no, I m going to go in there and I m definitely going to do the thing I have to do because I have to.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s an impulse.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s right.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s like under your skin.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s really good to have some geometry in the relationships.
3
SPEAKER_02
You don t want, like, you re attracted to people like yourself.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s tempting to get into bed with people identical to yourself, but it s so great to have such different skill sets between everyone in this room.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, absolutely.
3
SPEAKER_02
You and I probably shouldn t start a business.
3
SPEAKER_02
We have the same.
3
SPEAKER_00
No, absolutely not.
3
SPEAKER_02
We bar some bridges together and stuff.
3
SPEAKER_02
Nothing would actually happen.
3
SPEAKER_01
Get hurt.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, get really sensitive and be hurt and light the whole place on fire.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yes, yes.
3
SPEAKER_01
Can I pull the thread on the, I talked about where I m at with masculinity today, but I do think that I would say gender is an element of this show.
3
SPEAKER_01
Again, it s 20 years ago.
3
SPEAKER_01
So gender is a lot more rigidly defined even then, like very much so.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s very clear in this show.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s like, here s the basketball boys.
3
SPEAKER_01
Here are the cheerleaders.
3
SPEAKER_01
And
3
SPEAKER_01
What I think is special here is like there s a relationship here between a basketball boy, which is me, an artistic girl, which is Alicia, and we re really on other sides of the track at our high school, but like we are so much
3
SPEAKER_01
in a friendship love, like we re so much in a friendship love.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I really want, as a basketball boy who also has the pressure of family and community and people looking at you and wanting you to be such a tough boy, I so much wanna be like her.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I probably have spent the next 20 years trying to be more like her in a lot of ways.
3
SPEAKER_02
Oh God, do I relate to that, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_02
I m not who I was at all.
3
SPEAKER_02
I would have liked to have just been sweet and talked about feelings with my male friends, but I thought I d get murdered if I didn t learn how to be masculine.
3
SPEAKER_02
I just felt like I would get destroyed.
3
SPEAKER_02
I got destroyed at times.
3
SPEAKER_02
Right.
3
SPEAKER_02
I think you do have the added layer of blackness.
3
SPEAKER_02
There s the masculinity.
3
SPEAKER_02
And then there s yet another category altogether about like varying levels of blackness and feels extra cool.
3
SPEAKER_02
Cause I already know how rough just the masculine shit was, but then they have the added layer, but you re also navigating at all times.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and we really get into it in the show in a way that I think adds to the show artistically and doesn t sort of distract from the entirety of the show.
3
SPEAKER_01
No, no, it would be insane to not be acknowledging that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, like, I mean, I ll just say one of the things that is a scene of the show that I don t think you get many places, which is
3
SPEAKER_01
very honestly and directly confronting the relationship between athletic black boys and white girls in high school.
3
SPEAKER_01
And like, I m from suburbia, you know what I mean?
3
SPEAKER_01
My high school was half white, 40% black, 10% what they were calling at the time, other, which is just everybody else thrown into a bucket.
3
SPEAKER_01
Speaking about feeling other, you re actually labeled other.
3
SPEAKER_01
Literally, yeah, other.
3
SPEAKER_01
I had the experience of being a part of a small group of black kids, the basketball team, that was invited into the white houses, the big fancy white houses where I m from, which is not the common experience for the black kids where I m from.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that does something to your identity around making you feel like you re special in a way that s unhealthy and in a way that you try to steer into for the rest
4
SPEAKER_01
your life so you can keep getting invited back into the club.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then high school already has that like, this part I think is cool about high school.
4
SPEAKER_01
There s this wonder just about each other.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, you see other people and you re growing into like adult-ish bodies kind of, and you re watching each other shape into like real human beings.
4
SPEAKER_01
And there s just this like,
4
SPEAKER_01
This is an example of someone who was in many ways very similar to me.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like there s a black guy on the basketball team named Brandon Driver.
4
SPEAKER_01
He s probably two inches taller than me.
4
SPEAKER_01
He s faster than me.
4
SPEAKER_01
He s stronger than me.
4
SPEAKER_01
He s a better athlete than me.
4
SPEAKER_01
He s the starting point guard.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m the backup point guard.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I m like, to this day, I m like, how can I be more like Brandon every day?
4
SPEAKER_01
wonder about another person who just seems to be special in high school.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I think we capture that electricity about how you see someone who s different from you and what you imagine their life to be.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it s spectacular.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it must be.
4
SPEAKER_02
It must be great.
4
SPEAKER_02
And then he s looking at someone.
4
SPEAKER_02
I don t know.
4
SPEAKER_02
He s looking at you like,
4
SPEAKER_02
Why does every girl like this guy?
4
SPEAKER_02
I m the fucking star of this basketball team.
4
SPEAKER_02
Right.
4
SPEAKER_01
But he had the girls too.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I hated that.
4
SPEAKER_01
I hated that part.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was like, can I have anything, Brandon?
4
SPEAKER_01
He was cooler.
4
SPEAKER_01
He s taller.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
4
SPEAKER_01
He was better than me.
4
SPEAKER_01
He was so good.
4
SPEAKER_00
We all have one of those people.
4
SPEAKER_02
So this series, yearbook, will be an anthology.
4
SPEAKER_02
And so this is Chad s.
4
SPEAKER_02
And I can t imagine a better kickoff to it.
4
SPEAKER_02
I am curious, Monica.
4
SPEAKER_02
So everyone knows I would do seventh grade.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
What would you do?
4
SPEAKER_02
What will you do?
4
SPEAKER_00
I ve thought about it a lot since we started this.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s really hard for me because I think mine also might be 11th grade.
4
SPEAKER_02
Is that the state championship?
4
SPEAKER_00
That was the first year we won state and... Football.
4
SPEAKER_00
Cheerleading.
4
SPEAKER_02
Oh!
4
SPEAKER_00
I won state.
4
SPEAKER_00
Monica, you re a cheerleader?
4
SPEAKER_01
High flyer, high flyer.
4
SPEAKER_00
Two-time state champ.
4
SPEAKER_01
How did we get through this entire project and you didn t reveal to me you re a cheerleader?
4
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
4
SPEAKER_00
Still learning.
4
SPEAKER_01
All right.
4
SPEAKER_00
So junior and senior year were really big for me, but I bet it was earlier than that where I established I have to be white.
4
SPEAKER_00
Was probably the time when I really cemented my identity, which was I m sure earlier, so maybe even like
4
SPEAKER_00
Sixth grade, that s hard.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, maybe the cheerleading s more the result of the change.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s the payoff.
4
SPEAKER_02
Accomplishing the, yes, yes, yes.
4
SPEAKER_00
But the dive in was much earlier.
4
SPEAKER_00
I don t know, I have to think about it.
4
SPEAKER_02
My last thought is when you went to interview everybody, you must ve had some anxiety, especially because you re really tackling a very sacred event that needs to be done perfectly.
4
SPEAKER_02
Were you shocked by any of the responses?
4
SPEAKER_02
I mean, for me, I was shocked immediately with how seemingly willingly everyone, which is probably a testament to her, everyone was pretty excited to talk about how much they loved her.
4
SPEAKER_01
Everyone was excited to talk about,
4
SPEAKER_01
how much they loved her.
4
SPEAKER_01
I ll start with sort of the, I don t know, the scary side of asking.
4
SPEAKER_01
I had to ask the kid who was driving the car that crashed into a phone pole and killed her instantly if he would participate.
4
SPEAKER_01
I had to ask him
4
SPEAKER_01
multiple times, I was surprised that he didn t understand how meaningful she was to me.
4
SPEAKER_01
In fact, he barely even knew I existed.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that blew my mind.
4
SPEAKER_01
That did something to me around like the story I ve told myself about this whole thing, which is that this was such a story in my head about Alicia dying and the relationship that I had with Alicia, Chad specifically.
4
SPEAKER_01
And in these conversations, I came to understand, Alicia was a special person who made everybody feel like they were that person in her life.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, she had a bright light.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it was humbling in that way.
4
SPEAKER_01
On the other side of this whole thing, I am still trying to understand death because of that, how that happened.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s really weird as a teenager when your friend just is like disappeared, gone, that s it.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like the last time you saw them, they were normal, and now you can t call them, you can t talk to them, nothing.
4
SPEAKER_01
20 years later, there were so many still unanswered questions that each person had about like, what does this all mean about life?
4
SPEAKER_01
What am I supposed to do with this still?
4
SPEAKER_01
As an example, one of the people who appears on the show, she lost her dad to COVID a couple years ago.
4
SPEAKER_01
She still doesn t know what to do with that.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I guess the surprise was just that we don t get any more certain as we get older.
4
SPEAKER_01
We don t get the answer sheet.
4
SPEAKER_02
You re right.
4
SPEAKER_02
Think about when you re writing something.
4
SPEAKER_02
in your computer crashes and you lose the whole thing.
4
SPEAKER_02
Like, I think we ve all had this experience.
4
SPEAKER_02
The amount of time I will spend not accepting that.
4
SPEAKER_02
Like, I wonder if I, like, do I know a computer expert that will, did it save, but it s not saved?
4
SPEAKER_02
Like, I will just resist it.
4
SPEAKER_02
And then the next step is like, here s what I got to do in the future.
4
SPEAKER_02
I got to be backing up every five minutes.
4
SPEAKER_02
I know there s an auto set, like,
4
SPEAKER_02
It s just gone and you can t accept it.
4
SPEAKER_02
And then you re thinking of all the ways you could have prevented it and then how you must prevent it in the future.
4
SPEAKER_02
And then that s just a fucking thing you wrote for an hour.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, exactly.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
You re like, maybe Apple has it on a, in the cloud somewhere.
4
SPEAKER_02
You can t accept that.
4
SPEAKER_02
So how on earth do you accept that someone you love has disappeared into the ether?
4
SPEAKER_01
And I think every school has the kid that dies.
4
SPEAKER_01
There s the car accident, there s the drunk driving thing, there s the suicide, there s whatever.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I was among the kids calling and leaving voicemails on Alicia s phone.
4
SPEAKER_01
We had a big mural that went up in the school that people would write messages to her.
4
SPEAKER_01
You re a teenager, you re still trying to reconcile life and afterlife.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like, here I am, 35, still trying to reconcile life and afterlife.
4
SPEAKER_01
So, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
Well, listen, I want everyone to check this out because you do a really beautiful job.
4
SPEAKER_02
The other thing is you never know how vain someone s going to be when they go off to do a project like this.
4
SPEAKER_02
And you, whatever vanity you have, you certainly left it in New York when you went down back to Maryland because you let people talk about you in a way that I find really refreshing.
4
SPEAKER_02
And I think you re incredibly honest about the path to discovery you re on.
4
SPEAKER_02
I appreciate it.
4
SPEAKER_02
I appreciate it.
4
SPEAKER_00
We re excited.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s so good.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s so good.
4
SPEAKER_02
I encourage everyone to take the ride with us.
4
SPEAKER_02
First episode is available right now.
4
SPEAKER_02
You could immediately listen to it after this on the armchair feed, wherever you listen to your podcast.
4
SPEAKER_02
You can subscribe and you ll get a new episode every Friday.
4
SPEAKER_02
Chad, I love you.
4
SPEAKER_02
Thanks for doing this.
4
SPEAKER_01
Love you all.
4
SPEAKER_01
Thank you so much.
4
SPEAKER_01
Thank you for everything.