0
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Guess what, Will?
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What s up, Mango?
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I ve been trying to write a promo for our podcast, Part-Time Genius, but even though we ve done over 250 episodes, we don t really talk about murders or cults.
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I mean, we did just cover the Illuminati of cheese, so I feel like that makes us pretty edgy.
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We also solve mysteries like how Chinese is your Chinese food and how do dollar stores make money?
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And then, of course, can you game a dog show?
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So what you re saying is everyone should be listening.
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Listen to Part-Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Hey, everyone, this is Molly and Matt, and we re the hosts of Grown Up Stuff How to Adult, a podcast from Ruby Studio and iHeart Podcasts.
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It s a show dedicated to helping you figure out the trickiest parts of adulting.
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like how to start planning for retirement, creating a healthy skincare routine, understanding when and how much to tip someone, and so much more.
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Let s learn about all of it and then some.
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Listen to Grown Up Stuff How To Adult on America s number one podcast network, iHeart.
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Open your free iHeart app and search Grown Up Stuff.
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This is the story of how a group of people brought music back to Afghanistan by creating their own version of American Idol.
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The joy they brought to the nation.
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You re free completely.
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No one is there to destroy you.
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The danger they endured.
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They said my head should be cut off.
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I m John Legend.
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Listen to Afghan Star on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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When you get everything you thought you wanted and you still feel empty, you realize, wow, that was not what I was supposed to be chasing.
0
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This is one of the most remarkable, amazing stories in hip hop.
0
SPEAKER_05
Russ!
0
SPEAKER_05
I do whatever I want, whenever I want.
0
SPEAKER_05
I love it.
0
SPEAKER_05
I thought, I m never going to get depressed.
0
SPEAKER_05
What does that even mean?
0
SPEAKER_05
I don t need any of y all.
0
SPEAKER_00
Look.
0
SPEAKER_05
And it s like, deep down, you wanted everyone, though.
0
SPEAKER_05
How strong of a man are you if you re scared to face yourself?
0
SPEAKER_04
Straight up.
0
SPEAKER_04
Before we jump into this episode, I d like to invite you to join this community to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed.
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All I want you to do is click on the subscribe button.
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It s incredible to see all your comments, and we re just getting started.
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I can t wait to go on this journey with you.
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Thank you so much for subscribing.
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It means the world to me.
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The best-selling author and host.
0
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The number one health and wellness podcast.
0
SPEAKER_04
On Purpose with Jay Shetty.
0
SPEAKER_04
Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world.
0
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Thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to listen, learn, and grow.
0
SPEAKER_04
Our mission and community is all about making the world happier, healthier, and more healed.
0
SPEAKER_04
And today s guest is someone who s a favorite of yours, of the community.
0
SPEAKER_04
He came on once before, you loved it.
0
SPEAKER_04
The clips from that episode are going viral every week on TikTok.
0
SPEAKER_04
We can t keep up with it.
0
SPEAKER_04
We just keep sending stuff to each other.
0
SPEAKER_04
I ve been so excited for this moment to have him back on the show because when I have an instant connection with someone where you feel like you get along, you vibe, it s so rare that you want to make it happen again and again.
0
SPEAKER_04
We waited like two to three years, but here we are.
0
SPEAKER_04
I m welcoming back the one and only Russ.
0
SPEAKER_04
Russ is a 30-year-old multi-platinum rapper, singer, songwriter, producer,
0
SPEAKER_04
best-selling author.
0
SPEAKER_04
Russ proved that he didn t need a major label to surpass over 10 billion streams on Spotify and Apple Music, get on Forbes 2019 30 under 30, and make the Forbes Cash Kings at number 20 for most earned sellout arenas across the US and around the globe.
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SPEAKER_04
and become one of the most popular engaged rappers and thought leaders in the world right now.
0
SPEAKER_04
If you haven t read it already, we talked about this last time, Russ s self-help book.
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SPEAKER_04
It s all in your head.
0
SPEAKER_04
I highly recommend.
0
SPEAKER_04
And now we re talking about his new album, which is out now called Santiago.
0
SPEAKER_04
Please welcome to the show, the one and only Russ.
0
SPEAKER_04
Wow.
0
SPEAKER_05
What an intro.
0
SPEAKER_04
What s going on?
0
SPEAKER_04
Dude, man, you had to do all of that stuff.
0
SPEAKER_05
It s such an interesting thing hearing like intros like that.
0
SPEAKER_05
I guess it snaps me into like being seven and being 19 when all this was still just like a complete fantasy.
0
SPEAKER_05
It s hard to feel it.
0
SPEAKER_05
It s hard to feel the success of it.
0
SPEAKER_05
And this is what I ve like, we re just going to dive right in.
0
SPEAKER_05
But it s hard to feel the success of it because a lot of me struggles with like just not feeling good enough for myself.
0
SPEAKER_05
So like none of it registers, you know?
0
SPEAKER_05
And that s what I ve been working on.
0
SPEAKER_05
And that s kind of what Santiago addresses a lot is sort of this like, yeah, made the Forbes list and plaques, but it didn t move the needle, you know?
0
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_04
It s how do you go about that?
0
SPEAKER_04
I mean, like you, I mean, you dived in, so don t blame me now, but you know, when you think about the idea of being enough for yourself and how do you even start to comprehend what that even means?
0
SPEAKER_04
Because I think, as you were saying, when you re young.
0
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_04
being enough just means what being enough means to the world.
0
SPEAKER_04
Like you re like, oh, if I get those sneakers, then I ll be enough because my friends will think I m cool.
0
SPEAKER_04
Or if you re into academics, you ll be like, oh, if I get this grade, my parents will think that I made it.
0
SPEAKER_04
And then all of a sudden, none of those things add up.
0
SPEAKER_04
So how do you even go about thinking about what being enough means, especially in a culture that s comparing and always putting you up against other people?
0
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, it s so hard for me because I think it does start in childhood and I think
0
SPEAKER_05
it started with wanting to meet the standard that my dad set.
0
SPEAKER_05
And my dad, who I love him, and disclaimer before this interview goes more, it s like, I love my parents and they have done, I think, a great job and I don t blame them for anything.
0
SPEAKER_05
There s just realities that have happened that like,
0
SPEAKER_05
you know, there s experiences that I have that I now have to deal with and learn from, et cetera.
0
SPEAKER_05
But my dad s standard was perfection a lot of times, you know, and he was very critical.
0
SPEAKER_05
And so for me, you know, his metric
0
SPEAKER_05
it was impossible to meet, I ended up adopting it as my own, you know?
0
SPEAKER_05
And so the inner voice for a long time, it was my dad s inner voice of, you know, that s not good enough.
0
SPEAKER_05
Nah, you know, you got a 92 on the test.
0
SPEAKER_05
If you would have studied, you got a hundred, but it s still an A, but you know, little things like that, or showing him music early on and career stuff and just in general, right?
0
SPEAKER_05
And, but that inner voice that used to be his became my own inner voice.
0
SPEAKER_05
So now like it, it becomes this sort of inner critic that when I go platinum, it s like, it doesn t do it.
0
SPEAKER_05
Maybe double platinum will, maybe triple.
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SPEAKER_05
Oh, how much money did you make?
0
10?
0
SPEAKER_05
Oh, maybe 11 million will make you feel good.
0
SPEAKER_05
And so you keep chasing the next thing thinking that s, what s going to make you feel good about yourself.
0
SPEAKER_05
And,
0
SPEAKER_05
I think, to reference the Rick Rubin interview, I think he mentioned something where it s like, you get the number one album, you get all this stuff, and it doesn t do what you wanted it to do, and you feel emptier than ever.
0
SPEAKER_05
And I think that s kind of the place I got to, was I got the money, the house, the this and whatever, and that s how you know there s really something missing.
0
SPEAKER_05
Because how d you get all that and you still don t feel good?
0
SPEAKER_05
And it s a really empty feeling because most people in the world think that the reason why they re not happy and not feeling enough is all these things that they ll probably never get.
0
SPEAKER_05
And it s kind of this beautiful.
0
SPEAKER_05
blissfully ignorant place to live because you just get to always have this idea that, nah, I know I m going to keep going towards this and I know this is what s going to give me happiness.
0
SPEAKER_05
Even though you ll probably never get it, right?
0
SPEAKER_05
Most people won t ever see a million dollars or whatever.
0
SPEAKER_05
But for the people who get in, and I want no sympathy for like, oh, we don t feel bad for you, you re a millionaire, get over it.
0
SPEAKER_05
But it s like, when you get everything you thought you wanted and you still feel empty,
0
SPEAKER_05
you realize that, wow, that was not what I was supposed to be chasing.
0
SPEAKER_05
And there s a bigger hole here.
0
SPEAKER_05
And now I need to grow down, you know, and I need to look internal because external didn t do it.
0
SPEAKER_04
And that s what Oasis is all about on the album, right?
0
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_04
So Oasis is the closest track to that feeling or?
0
SPEAKER_05
So Oasis was sort of this fool s paradise is what the idea behind that song was.
0
SPEAKER_05
It was like, I got the house, the life, everything on surface looked like, okay, you did it.
0
SPEAKER_05
And internally though, I was still a mess.
0
SPEAKER_05
I was joking with you, you know, off camera, like last time we talked, you know, I was 30 pounds overweight.
0
SPEAKER_05
It was just proportioned nicely.
0
SPEAKER_05
So it didn t, it wasn t, it wasn t like too big in any one place, but I was 30 pounds overweight.
0
SPEAKER_05
I was drinking too much.
0
SPEAKER_05
I was eating too much.
0
SPEAKER_05
I had no discipline over my thoughts, my eating habits.
0
SPEAKER_05
I had no discipline over my sexual energy, things like that.
0
SPEAKER_05
So it was really like, I was a glutton, you know, but,
0
SPEAKER_05
the way that is dressed up sometimes, you re a rock star, you re a king.
0
SPEAKER_05
And so Oasis is about on surface, yeah, you re eating good, you re gaining weight because you re getting money and you re eating good and you re sleeping with random women and drinking, but it s all good because look, another plaque just came in and more money came in another sold out show.
0
SPEAKER_05
And it was poking, that whole song is poking fun at me because I m in my little oasis.
0
SPEAKER_05
I m distracted by, look at my house, look at my life.
0
SPEAKER_05
I love what you just said.
0
SPEAKER_05
You re distracted.
1
SPEAKER_01
by the gold, and you re distracted by the shining lights and the bright things and the plaques.
1
SPEAKER_01
When you re that distracted, how do you open up your eyes?
1
SPEAKER_01
How do you even get to a point now where you re able to look back and go, I was distracted, now I m a bit more awake and I m working on this stuff?
1
SPEAKER_01
Because I can imagine that it gets so loud.
1
SPEAKER_01
you re a rock star, you re a king, you re all these things.
1
SPEAKER_01
And then all of a sudden you ve got to kind of like quiet that down and go, but I m still not happy.
1
SPEAKER_01
How do you get that breakthrough?
1
SPEAKER_01
Because I feel like we re all the best at setting ourselves up for failure and we re all the best at avoiding advice when it s good.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like I know,
1
SPEAKER_01
when i m wrong because when my wife says something and i know she s right yeah and i don t want to admit it right because i know she s right and that s what but it s that awareness piece is so hard yeah how did you what was the moment for you because you are killing it you re still killing it yeah you looked well then to me you looked well thank you today like you look great like right so
1
SPEAKER_01
And I really enjoyed your company last time, and I m going to enjoy your company this time.
1
SPEAKER_01
So externally, you could argue, well, what s going on?
1
SPEAKER_00
As men, we get good at masking it.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s part of like, you know, I have a long answer for this, but... Go on, go for it.
1
SPEAKER_00
First of all, therapy is kind of what like,
1
SPEAKER_00
not woke me up, but it helped.
1
SPEAKER_00
But something I learned in therapy is this idea that, you know, society measures a man based off of how much they can carry, how far they can carry it, and how alone they can carry it.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think for a lot of men, we have become professional hiders of our pain.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so while I was quote unquote distracted,
1
SPEAKER_00
what woke me up to what was going on was that there was psychological warfare and internal chaos constantly anyway.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, I like, I just kept pushing it down, pushing it down, but I knew it was there cause I was pushing it down.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it just got to a point where I just had a breakdown one day.
1
SPEAKER_00
It just, you push it down enough and at some point you can t push it anymore.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it, you know, overflows in it.
1
SPEAKER_00
And what I learned is,
1
SPEAKER_00
When you re burying it, burying it, burying it, when it does finally just explode, it s always going to be at the worst time.
1
SPEAKER_00
And that time came right before a European tour that I had scheduled.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I had to cancel it because I was like, my body and spirit and mind just shut down.
1
SPEAKER_00
I just couldn t even do it.
1
SPEAKER_00
I couldn t even like go through the motions of acting like I could perform.
1
SPEAKER_00
And, you know, through therapy and talking every week, you know, and really being vulnerable and being honest with my therapist, which I couldn t wait for like,
1
SPEAKER_00
Getting a therapist has been at the top of my to-do list for like four years.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I just never did.
1
SPEAKER_00
I never got around to it because I just always once again was like, do I really need one?
1
SPEAKER_00
Look how good my life is.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, nah, I think I m tripping.
1
SPEAKER_00
But it just got to this point, man, where I was like, I need to talk to someone because I feel like I m going insane.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s just been so helpful because I m like, I want to figure out what s going on internally.
1
SPEAKER_00
So it s like, well, I don t know how to fix this, so let s act like it doesn t exist, you know?
1
SPEAKER_01
I m so glad you raised this because I ve been looking for the person.
1
SPEAKER_01
I m about to introduce a conversation that I ve been trying to find the right person to have it with.
1
SPEAKER_01
And it just clicked me in this moment that you re that person, like literally.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I think it s such an important conversation that
1
SPEAKER_01
I ve been trying to navigate, I have it offline a lot, but I haven t really had it online.
1
SPEAKER_01
So this will be the first time that I talk about it here, but it s like, you just raised that as a man, especially we re good at masking it.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I think men in today s society, being a man in today s society is such an interesting time.
1
SPEAKER_01
And you come across to me as, you know, like you re,
1
SPEAKER_01
and you can describe in your own sense, but you re a confident man, you know, you re a man s man.
1
SPEAKER_01
I d say as well, like, I don t know how you see yourself.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s why I don t know how you see yourself.
1
SPEAKER_01
I was going to ask you because you, you so confidently are like, Hey man, I need to find help.
1
SPEAKER_01
I went to therapy.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
But at the same time, you re a rapper on stage.
1
SPEAKER_01
He s like dropping like the best bars.
1
SPEAKER_01
And so I m like, when you look at that paradox, I love that.
1
SPEAKER_01
because I m thinking about what is it that you think men are struggling with most?
1
SPEAKER_01
And maybe it s even for your own friends, the people you hang out with, like, what do you think men are struggling with in today s society?
1
SPEAKER_01
Because I don t feel we talk about that enough with like what the struggle is.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I think, I mean, so much, but I think men are struggling with being in tune with their own emotions and feeling safe and feeling like they have permission from themselves to feel what they re feeling.
1
SPEAKER_00
because society has told them, get over it effectively.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think for me, that s what I did for the most part.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think my generation, let alone generations before me, we all saw our dads probably just get over it and figure it out and brush the dirt off and keep going.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s what I did, and I would just put little trickles of what I was feeling in the music.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s so funny, when I had that breakdown, when I finally just was honest with myself and got a therapist, I would go back and listen to old songs, songs like Nobody Knows or songs like All To You, and it s like, these were such cries for help that I think made me feel more insane because I would put them out, and they just became songs.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it sort of downplayed what was really going on because it s like, I take a very vulnerable, real emotion of sadness and pain and confusion and feeling lost and don t know what to do and turn it into two and a half minutes of music.
1
SPEAKER_00
And now it just becomes numbers on a screen and streams and how loud is it at the shows?
1
SPEAKER_00
And I forget, fans forget, people forget, but most importantly, I forget that
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh no, like this was like really what I was going to.
1
SPEAKER_00
This isn t just like a lullaby.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think you re right.
1
SPEAKER_01
I feel like when I talk to people, I feel like men are feeling a lot of pressure to be a lot of things, like to be successful, to have it together, to have some emotional maturity, figured out their mental health.
1
SPEAKER_01
And again, you know, every gender has their own pressures that come with it.
1
SPEAKER_01
Right.
1
SPEAKER_01
But I think,
1
SPEAKER_01
I know a lot of men who feel scared to share that pressure because they feel like you said, that they shouldn t have it.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like they re not allowed to have that pressure.
1
SPEAKER_01
I think you re one of the few music artists that has found a way of intertwining mental health and music in a way that it s not cheesy and it s not like corny and it s not like, it comes across like, when I listen to you, I m just like,
1
SPEAKER_01
God, that s a bar.
1
SPEAKER_01
You can appreciate it just because it s good music, and then knowing that you have this conscious side to yourself.
1
SPEAKER_01
Was that always at the forefront of when you got into music, or was it something that evolved with time because of your journey?
1
SPEAKER_01
Because I think it s quite a hard balance to talk about meaningful stuff in a way that doesn t come across as cheesy and corny.
1
SPEAKER_01
So how have you found a way of being able to do that?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I think I always was looking for answers.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think I always, as a consumer of music, I always liked substance and lyrics and things that meant something, things that maybe could help me.
1
SPEAKER_00
And as an artist, when I wanted to make my own, I was
1
SPEAKER_00
trying to find answers, like my creative side was trying to piece together these other sides of me, like what was going on with my family, with my friends, with my relationship, with my career, like the creative side of me would come in and be like, maybe this means that, maybe what you re feeling means this.
1
SPEAKER_00
And like I said, there s like all these little like Easter eggs, I guess, throughout my catalog of me trying to figure it out.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so I think I was just naturally and am naturally a curious person.
1
SPEAKER_00
and an ambitious person.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so like, ambitious in the sense that I really want to figure out what is going on with me.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, I want to know why I think the way I think, where that came from.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think in the past, it s funny when you re like, you re a confident man, et cetera, et cetera, I was omnipotent.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I ve learned that that s not confidence, you know, that s insecurity.
1
SPEAKER_00
And, you know, I, because I mean, this is so, so multi-layered, but it s funny your shirt says imperfections, because it really stems from me being a perfectionist, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
So like me being a perfectionist, there s no room for me to not be right.
1
SPEAKER_00
there s no room for me to not act like I know everything and what s going on.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I got being a perfectionist from the standard that my dad set, which ended up becoming my own standard.
1
SPEAKER_00
So early on in my career, I had this omnipotence where I knew everything, everything I was doing was right.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I felt like I had to act like that because if you re a perfectionist, there is no room for criticism.
1
SPEAKER_00
Perfectionists are trying to run from criticism.
1
SPEAKER_00
And help is coded as criticism to a perfectionist.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I didn t want any help.
1
SPEAKER_00
And if you tried to help, I took it as a critique and it threatened my idea of being a perfectionist.
1
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, but like, I m trying to figure out the answers.
1
SPEAKER_01
Dude, one thing you said to me last time, I ve quoted this so many times in interviews when I get asked questions about like, Oh, what was one of your favorite takeaways?
1
SPEAKER_01
And it s from our interview.
1
SPEAKER_01
And it s, you said that when you sometimes get in the studio at that time, you were like, I get rid of all my friends.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I can be in there alone and make weird sounds that I wouldn t make when people are in the room because I might be scared of what they think.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I ve said that to so many people and everyone s always like quite blown away or taken aback because I guess it s not a common thing that artists do.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it stayed with me for so long, but I was interested by what you just said.
2
SPEAKER_00
How did your immediate, I guess your immediate circle, I m assuming you re around people that you love, but how do you think then the wider circle responds to you saying things like, I need help, therapy is good for you?
2
SPEAKER_00
Do you feel like the wider circle goes automatically?
2
SPEAKER_00
Do you think the world s got to a place now where we re like, yes, Russ, that makes sense.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re right.
2
SPEAKER_00
Or do you still have people around you going, not yet.
2
SPEAKER_00
You don t need therapy, man.
2
SPEAKER_00
You just need to go smoke or blow some cash.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because you come from the rap music world, I wonder, what do you hear?
2
SPEAKER_01
I think my friends, my immediate circle, my friends were all very supportive.
2
SPEAKER_01
My family was supportive as well.
2
SPEAKER_01
they re obviously like what s going on because my identity has been attached.
2
SPEAKER_01
When it comes to my family, my identity has been attached to helping them.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know, that s how I felt safe.
2
SPEAKER_01
That was the role I played.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I ve never asked for help.
2
SPEAKER_01
I ve never received help.
2
SPEAKER_01
I ve never come off like I needed help.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so when they saw that I needed therapy, I m canceling tour, it s like 911 in my house, you know, as far as like my family.
2
SPEAKER_01
So they were just like really concerned.
2
SPEAKER_01
But I think as far as the world s concerned, I do think the world is more open and receptive to the idea of men needing help.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that s okay.
2
SPEAKER_01
And even if they re not open to it, that is naturally where this is going.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like, I just feel like the pendulum has to swing at some point.
2
SPEAKER_01
And this whole idea that men have to just be like,
2
SPEAKER_01
you know, military men who show nothing, no emotions and like figure it out and don t ask for help and we do it ourselves.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s like, that is not sustainable.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know, it s just not.
2
SPEAKER_01
Men need to communicate and collaborate with each other and
2
SPEAKER_01
you know, not feel so alone.
2
SPEAKER_00
How have you found the reaction to that from like straight women?
2
SPEAKER_00
Do straight women find men more or less attractive or good partners based on that kind of approach and vulnerability?
2
SPEAKER_01
I think it depends on the woman.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I think a lot of times,
2
SPEAKER_01
there s great women out there who will respond well to that.
2
SPEAKER_01
And there s women who won t.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I think a lot of times with men, they are scared to show that vulnerability because of what a lot of women have displayed, which is like, now I m not attracted to you.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it s like, I said on enough on Santiago,
2
SPEAKER_01
some women looking at you lesser if there s tears on your cheek, but if there s tears tattooed, that same girl is a freak.
2
SPEAKER_01
So they re attracted to the pain unless they hear the pain speak.
2
SPEAKER_01
So it s like, it s really interesting.
2
SPEAKER_01
Cause when you, when you talk to, when you talk to women, when you, thank you.
2
SPEAKER_01
But it s like, when you talk to women and you like kind of see where their heads at, you see that they kind of like, a lot of women want this sort of rough and rugged guy.
2
SPEAKER_01
Who s like, he s tough and all these things.
2
SPEAKER_01
but like you don t want him to talk about it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Cause now he s soft, but it s like, so you want him to have some pain because that s what makes him the rough and rugged, you know, but you just don t want to hear about it.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so where does he go then?
2
SPEAKER_01
It s oh, so you just want him to be quiet, but then you re wondering why he can t open up to you.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, well, he just doesn t open up to me.
2
SPEAKER_01
Which one is it?
2
SPEAKER_01
This isn t Build-A-Bear.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
2
SPEAKER_01
Like, and I feel women too, who it s like, dudes want the girl who does it.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s why it s like, find someone that s compatible with you and gets you and rock out and forget about the rest.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I love the way you just, I mean, the lyric it speaks for itself, but.
2
SPEAKER_00
That is summed up so well.
2
SPEAKER_00
And by the way, everyone who s listening, I m not trying to take sides or you get where I m coming from.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like I m just trying to come from a place of like, where are we?
2
SPEAKER_00
It s exactly what Rush just said.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like we want someone to be tough, but without the pain, without talking about the pain.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, that s just not real.
2
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t exist.
2
SPEAKER_00
The idea that someone is tough,
2
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and hasn t been through pain is non-existent.
2
SPEAKER_00
And at some point that person is going to need to express or connect or collaborate, as you said, either with you or other people about their pain.
2
SPEAKER_00
This also applies to women.
2
SPEAKER_00
It applies to every gender that people who ve been through pain are going to have stories to tell.
2
SPEAKER_00
And if you want someone tough, chances are that they ve got grit and resilience because they ve had massive loss in their life.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I think you just summed up, that is exactly what I was trying to get to.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s like pain is a prerequisite for being a tough, hardened man.
2
SPEAKER_01
Hardened from what?
2
SPEAKER_01
you know, hardened by pain, experience.
2
SPEAKER_01
So it s like, I just, I do think it s really interesting for the group of women who want vulnerability and openness emotionally from men who they also almost shame into thinking that keep your pain to yourself though.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and then there s the other side.
2
SPEAKER_00
I find I have a lot of friends who are like, my man doesn t open up, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Like I have a lot of friends who are like, look, I want to be there for him.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like I m ready to listen to him.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like I want him to be more open about his feelings.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, cause men are scared that if they do, oh wow, nevermind.
2
SPEAKER_01
This is unattractive.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Cause it goes against what we as men have been taught makes a strong man.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s not personal to you.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s how society has set us up.
2
SPEAKER_00
We ve been brainwashed.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know?
2
SPEAKER_00
Would you say yours is just you re so seeking the answers?
2
SPEAKER_00
Like what gave you the courage to break that as someone who s a stage performer?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Who s crushing it, who has actually everything that 99% of men want?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
What gave you the, was it courage or was it just like, I just need this?
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, you know?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
It was out of desperation to be honest.
2
SPEAKER_01
And also I think like being isolated from society plays like a part in it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like I m not out and about, I m not trying to be on the scene and make friends.
2
SPEAKER_01
I d like, there s a part of like,
2
SPEAKER_01
Like being in my bubble, that sort of gives me that safety net of like, okay, if I m vulnerable, it s like, who does that really... I m not worried if that girl or this person is going to feel a way.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like it s kind of just me, you know, that has to deal with this.
2
SPEAKER_00
How do you keep that distance?
2
SPEAKER_00
I feel like people struggle with that even if they re not...
2
SPEAKER_00
And in entertainment, people get glued to social media, they get addicted.
2
SPEAKER_00
How are you keeping distance when you re so interconnected to the industry in one sense?
2
SPEAKER_01
I think it s also just a testament though to my fans.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think I ve had, like, I m really fortunate to have the kind of fans that I do that are actually supporters of me.
2
SPEAKER_01
And from the beginning, I ve tried to be as authentic as I was in that moment.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I ve tried to be vulnerable and introspective.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I think
2
SPEAKER_01
All of that played a part, and when I did have to cancel tour, and when I have let fans in on the journey of mental health and therapy, them being open to it because this isn t coming out of complete left field as far as the introspection and the vulnerability.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m a vulnerable artist.
2
SPEAKER_01
I never was that worried if my male fans would be like, oh, we re out.
2
SPEAKER_01
because it s like, y all are singing losing control.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
2
SPEAKER_01
Like y all are singing love songs and heartbreak songs.
2
SPEAKER_01
So you know what I m saying?
2
SPEAKER_01
Straight up.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it s like, everyone s at a different place in their journey.
2
SPEAKER_01
And like, however, like wherever you re at is fine.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
I remember that when I was a teenager, when I thought I was, that s when I thought I was cool.
2
SPEAKER_00
It was like, I was that kind of person that didn t understand how someone could get depressed because I didn t get it.
2
SPEAKER_01
I was like that four years ago.
2
SPEAKER_00
So bad.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, you have that mindset.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re like, what does that mean?
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, and then you go through your own stuff and you re like, oh, I get it now.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I found that for me, I found that life has this really strange way of making you go through things that you thought shouldn t affect anyone.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
So if you in your head have an idea of like, I don t understand that, I don t know how that affects someone.
2
SPEAKER_00
Life s like, just wait.
2
SPEAKER_00
Literally.
2
SPEAKER_00
Hold up.
2
SPEAKER_00
That has happened to me so many times.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so whenever now I have that thought, I literally catch it and I go, let s get rid of that thought because let me actually try and be curious about it rather than look at it in a condescending way.
2
SPEAKER_00
Cause chances are, if I see it in a derogatory way or a negligent way, I m going to have to experience it just for life to teach me that it s real.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
I got humbled for sure by that kind of thing where it s like, back to me being omnipotent, I got humbled by realizing, oh, I don t know everything, you know?
2
SPEAKER_01
Because I thought I m never going to get depressed.
2
SPEAKER_01
What does that even mean?
2
SPEAKER_01
And then all of a sudden you re like, okay, so this can happen to me.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Describe that for me.
2
SPEAKER_00
What was that for you?
2
SPEAKER_00
I think I can ask you this because I feel like you articulate your thoughts so well and you really get in there with what s going on.
2
SPEAKER_00
So many people have said this, right, this idea of like, you get the triple platinum, you get the money, and it doesn t work.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, what actually, and I m asking you because I feel like you ll get in there, what is actually not working about that?
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, what is it about that that doesn t help you feel better or solve the void?
2
SPEAKER_00
What is it?
2
SPEAKER_00
Why does it not work?
2
SPEAKER_00
Because I think so many people say that, but then everyone goes, oh yeah, but you re a millionaire, you can say that.
2
SPEAKER_00
But let s try to help people out there because I still, like, if I,
3
SPEAKER_03
I prefer being financially safe
3
SPEAKER_03
successful in doing what I love.
3
SPEAKER_03
I do prefer that to when I was close to being broke and not successful in what I did.
3
SPEAKER_03
I much prefer my life right now.
3
SPEAKER_03
But I also know that the thing that gives me deep meaning and keeps me going is my purpose that s connected to my work.
3
SPEAKER_03
As long as I feel I m positively impacting people, I m serving people, and I m using my voice to make a difference in people s lives, that is what actually makes me happy.
3
SPEAKER_03
And then what happens around it is the best bonus of all time.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_02
See, that s a good value to have though.
3
SPEAKER_02
Like in good perspective for me, the plaques and whatever, it not working is really just because you re clearly, or I was clearly seeking validation subconsciously.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I thought that becoming a big artist and plaques and all that was going to make me feel validated and make me feel like I belong and make me feel approved.
3
SPEAKER_02
and make me feel good enough.
3
SPEAKER_02
And when I got all that and I still had all of those issues, that s what I mean by not working.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I agree too, like I prefer my life now than the alternative, but the hole is still there.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I think at 17, when I started like really going after this,
3
SPEAKER_02
I don t know if I had the depth and the awareness to know what I was going after.
3
SPEAKER_02
I m chasing approval and validation.
3
SPEAKER_02
But when I look back, I can pinpoint certain behaviors and certain times in the studio or whatever where I can tell I wanted people to validate me.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I thought that rap in the industry was going to pat me on the back.
3
SPEAKER_02
And that s kind of what I talk about in I Love You Boy, which is like, I replaced my dad with the industry.
3
SPEAKER_02
which is really like wild, right?
3
SPEAKER_02
Because I felt like as a kid wanting just approval of your dad as a son, you know, when you don t get it, you can feel like ostracized kind of, and just like you don t belong and you re not good enough and all these things.
3
SPEAKER_02
And it s so strange that as a white guy, what I chose to pick to replace my dad to give me approval was a craft that
3
SPEAKER_02
I m not, that I m ostracizing off bat.
3
SPEAKER_02
You know what I mean?
3
SPEAKER_02
It s like, I picked the hardest thing to get approval from.
3
SPEAKER_02
Like I replaced my dad with an industry and started to rap.
3
SPEAKER_02
I want to praise and acknowledgement and pick the profession that people who look like me don t get.
3
SPEAKER_02
You know what I mean?
3
SPEAKER_02
So it was almost like, I guess if I could analyze where my head was at when I was 17, maybe because it s like, if I could get approval from this thing that I love, this genre, this lifestyle, this whole culture, then I m officially approved.
3
SPEAKER_02
Because I know how hard it is to get approval from that.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I don t know.
3
SPEAKER_02
But it really stems from, once again, not having the self-approval and the self-validation and thinking that someone else is gonna give it to you.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I remember talking with my therapist and he was like, or I think I said like,
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, but if I do get a number one album and go number one on the Billboard Hot 100 and this person says I m great, I m sure I ll feel really good.
3
SPEAKER_02
He s like, you probably will for about 20 minutes.
3
SPEAKER_02
And then I think you ll have your lowest moment of your life.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I agree.
3
SPEAKER_02
Because when I have gotten crazy accomplishments, it lasts for not that long.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I m right back to like, I m lower because that s another thing on the list that didn t do it.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s another thing that didn t fill the hole.
3
SPEAKER_02
Forbes list, nope.
3
SPEAKER_02
Platinum, nope.
3
SPEAKER_02
Buy a mom house, nope.
3
SPEAKER_02
None of it.
3
SPEAKER_03
I see what you re saying and I want that to register with people because
3
SPEAKER_03
What Russ is doing, which I appreciate, is clarifying the difference.
3
SPEAKER_03
It s great in and of itself.
3
SPEAKER_03
It just doesn t fill the hole inside.
3
SPEAKER_03
It doesn t solve the fact that I don t feel better about who I am and myself.
3
SPEAKER_03
It s beautiful to buy your mom a house.
3
SPEAKER_03
That s awesome.
3
SPEAKER_03
It s good for her.
3
SPEAKER_03
It s great.
3
SPEAKER_03
That s not the point.
3
SPEAKER_03
The point is, it doesn t change how I feel about my level of self-worth and self-esteem.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, the point is, if I thought that buying my mom a house and making the Forbes list and going platinum was going to make me feel validated, approved, and like I m good enough,
3
SPEAKER_02
then that s the mistake.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s where you re going to feel emptier than ever because you re going to do that.
3
SPEAKER_02
And that s not what s going to do it.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_03
You know, what s really interesting for me listening to you is, so I m kind of like where you re at with your parents, where I love both my parents and independently.
3
SPEAKER_03
And in the same way, I have a good relationship with both of them today.
3
SPEAKER_03
And
3
SPEAKER_03
but it wasn t always, it wasn t that way externally.
3
SPEAKER_03
And with my dad especially, so my dad didn t validate me or even support me when I was growing up.
3
SPEAKER_03
Like he would, if he turned up to a swim competition, cause I used to swim a lot, when I d look up at the stands, he d be reading his newspaper.
3
SPEAKER_03
So, or if I was, I played rugby for my school and it was one of my favorite things that I made it onto my school s rugby team.
3
SPEAKER_03
I used to be a lot bigger growing up and he would never turn up to support me.
3
SPEAKER_03
And so my dad wasn t there and that was really interesting because at the time it made me just want to get approval of my friends and like be cool and whatever and that leads you to do all sorts of dumb stuff.
3
SPEAKER_03
But what it ultimately led me to was I got to make my own rules of what success were.
3
SPEAKER_03
So not getting his, he never had a version of success for me.
3
SPEAKER_03
Like he almost didn t have like this is what you have to be to be successful.
3
SPEAKER_03
And so I ve always seen it as I just got freedom
3
SPEAKER_03
to define what kind of man I wanted to be, because my dad didn t really define what kind of man he cared I would be.
3
SPEAKER_03
And it s really interesting now, because when I look at my relationship with him today, he s more like a friend than he is my dad, because he wasn t really fathering me.
3
SPEAKER_03
And I think where I got really lucky, like this really was like one of those moments when you feel fortunate,
3
SPEAKER_03
is I projected that lack of fatherhood fortunately onto the monks.
3
SPEAKER_03
Because that wasn t what I was meant to be and I wasn t spiritual.
3
SPEAKER_03
And I really look at that as like, I didn t have any positive role models in my life.
3
SPEAKER_03
I didn t have any positive male role models in my life.
3
SPEAKER_03
And the monks were positive male role models.
3
SPEAKER_03
And I met them at
3
SPEAKER_03
when I was 18 years old.
3
SPEAKER_02
Which is so important to have.
3
SPEAKER_03
So important.
3
SPEAKER_03
And the crazy thing about them is they don t validate you.
3
SPEAKER_03
Wow.
3
SPEAKER_03
So it was like even more challenging, but it s like, you see an amazing role model who s showing you the right way, but is not trying to falsely validate or approve you.
3
SPEAKER_03
So you still have to figure it out.
3
SPEAKER_03
You still have to do it yourself.
3
SPEAKER_03
You still have to do it.
3
SPEAKER_03
They re teaching
3
SPEAKER_03
what you just said, how to do it yourself.
3
SPEAKER_03
Like that it s still you on your own.
3
SPEAKER_03
You got to live in your own mind.
3
SPEAKER_03
And when you realize that it s like, yeah, I live in my own mind.
3
SPEAKER_03
These are my thoughts.
3
SPEAKER_03
What you just said earlier, I either have to, I either am translating my dad s voice into becoming my voice or I m actually going to choose what I want my thoughts to be.
3
SPEAKER_03
And that s what they were training us in.
3
SPEAKER_03
So through so much fortune, I got to that point and
3
SPEAKER_03
Even till this day, I m constantly just practicing that because again, I haven t perfected it.
3
SPEAKER_03
I still get into the place where you start hearing the noise.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s so funny because that s why I ended the album with just me singing, it was you all along.
3
SPEAKER_02
Because all these things I m chasing, validation, love, approval, patience, all of it is things that I have to give myself.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I just, I thought that everything and everyone else was going to give it to me.
3
SPEAKER_03
Tell me some of the ways you ve been giving it to yourself because you are getting, like you said, like a lot of people get to the point you ve got to when they re unsuccessful.
3
SPEAKER_03
So like they wait till the record s now not getting the downloads and the streams and like they re not really winning the stuff and things aren t going well and then you go, oh this wasn t it.
3
SPEAKER_03
you re realizing it while things are hot, right?
3
SPEAKER_03
Like things are good.
3
SPEAKER_03
You ve got a new album dropping.
3
SPEAKER_03
The music sounds great, by the way.
3
SPEAKER_03
I wanted to say, like, I was thankful that your team sent me the album before, and it s like, I can t wait to play it more and more.
3
SPEAKER_03
And I can t wait for everyone to hear it.
3
SPEAKER_03
Music s awesome.
3
SPEAKER_03
And I just go, you re winning and you realized it.
3
SPEAKER_03
Like, what are some of the things you re doing to validate yourself?
3
SPEAKER_03
Like, what are you doing?
3
SPEAKER_03
Like, that s what I m still working on, you know?
3
SPEAKER_00
What are some of the practices, the habits?
3
SPEAKER_00
A new season of Bridgerton is here.
3
SPEAKER_00
And with it, a new season of Bridgerton, the official podcast.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m your host, Gabrielle Collins.
3
SPEAKER_00
And this season, we are bringing fans even deeper into the ton.
3
SPEAKER_00
Colin Bridgerton has returned from his travels abroad.
3
SPEAKER_00
Is Betrothal written in the stars for the eligible bachelor?
3
SPEAKER_00
Meanwhile, the ton is reverberating with speculation of who holds Lady Whistledown s pen.
3
SPEAKER_00
We re discussing it all.
3
SPEAKER_00
I sit down with Nicola Coughlin, Luke Newton, Shonda Rhimes, and more to offer an exclusive peek behind the scenes of each episode of the new season.
3
SPEAKER_00
Watch season three of the Shondaland series on Netflix.
3
SPEAKER_00
Then,
3
SPEAKER_00
Fall in love all over again by listening to Bridgerton, the official podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts.
4
SPEAKER_00
or wherever you get your podcasts.
4
SPEAKER_00
Subscribe to catch a new episode every Thursday.
4
SPEAKER_00
like how to start planning for retirement, creating a healthy skincare routine, understanding when and how much to tip someone, and so much more.
4
SPEAKER_03
We re back with season two of the podcast, which means more opportunities to glow up and become a more responsible and better adult, one life lesson at a time.
4
SPEAKER_00
And let me just tell you, this show is just as much for us as it is for you.
4
SPEAKER_00
So let s figure this stuff out together.
4
SPEAKER_00
This season, we re going to talk about whether or not we re financially and emotionally ready for dog ownership.
4
SPEAKER_03
We re going to figure out the benefits of a high yield savings account.
4
SPEAKER_00
And what exactly are the duties of being a member of the wedding party?
4
SPEAKER_03
All that plus so much more.
4
SPEAKER_00
Let s learn about all of it and then some.
4
SPEAKER_00
Listen to Grown Up Stuff How to Adult on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
4
SPEAKER_05
Guess what, Mango?
4
SPEAKER_05
What s that, Will?
4
SPEAKER_05
So iHeart is giving us a whole minute to promote our podcast, Part-Time Genius.
4
SPEAKER_04
I know, that s why I spent my whole week composing a haiku for the occasion.
4
SPEAKER_04
It s about my emotional journey in podcasting over the last seven years, and it s called Earthquake House.
4
SPEAKER_05
Mango, I m going to cut you off right there.
4
SPEAKER_04
Why don t we just tell people about our show instead?
4
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, that s a better idea.
4
SPEAKER_04
So every week on Part-Time Genius, we feed our curiosity by answering the world s most important questions.
4
SPEAKER_04
Things like, when did America start dialing 911?
4
SPEAKER_04
is William Shatner s best acting work in Esperanto.
4
SPEAKER_04
Also, what happened to Esperanto?
4
SPEAKER_05
Plus, we cover questions like how Chinese is your Chinese food?
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I can control, you know, uh, I think honoring the gift is important, celebrating myself.
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And I think.
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A way that I ve celebrated myself, which makes me feel good about myself is to honor my gift.
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And so for example, like going to the gym for me to lose 30 pounds of fat, not muscle, right?
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30 pounds of fat was crazy.
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Um, I did it through shame.
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You need to lose weight, you know, and just talking crazy to myself and it still worked, but I lost the weight and I still didn t feel good about myself.
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I still had a breakdown.
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And so now I m looking at going to the gym as I m celebrating my health and my body.
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I m honoring the gift of being alive and being mobile, and celebrating the gift of my creativity by going to the studio instead of looking at going to the studio, like I need to catch a hit, otherwise I m a loser.
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It s like, nah, I m celebrating myself.
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Every time I go to the studio, it s a celebration.
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That s already a great mindset switch, man.
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Yeah, it s better than where I was at.
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No, but I think what we don t realize is even if critical, judgmental, negative motivation works, the problem is now that s all you have in your toolkit to motivate yourself.
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So when you ve lost the weight you wanted to lose, you re now motivating yourself still through that criticism, judgment, and like talking down to yourself.
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And even with the music, I love what you just said, you feel so much more abundant.
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when you walk into something and you go, I m just here because I m grateful to be alive.
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I m happy to be here as opposed to.
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God, if I don t write the next hit, and I know so many musicians that say that to me, and in music, it s the hardest place.
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And I feel like I have so many people in my life that are friends that feel that pressure because, again, like you said, it s the pressure they re hearing from their management, their team, their fans, potentially, if they re not connected to them, you re gonna become irrelevant, you ll never be as big as so-and-so, didn t you see what they just did?
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And so if you don t have that healthy dialogue internally,
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And I do think it is that for me as well.
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It s like, I spend so much time alone just to monitor my internal dialogue.
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Scary.
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Because it s the only way.
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It s terrifying.
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Because when I m alone, I can truly choose and program the thoughts in my mind.
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Whereas if I m constantly surrounded by people and noise, it s natural that it s going to seep in.
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Well, sometimes the noise distracts us from looking in because looking in is scary.
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That s what I was doing.
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I think that s the biggest reason why people don t want to spend time alone.
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Of course, especially men, because like we once again know that, or we have like believed that our emotions are irrelevant and ignore them, you know, be like, just completely avoid feeling anything.
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And that s what makes you a man.
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And so I think spending time alone in meditation and doing like, you know, personal work is a very like, it feels feminine to men.
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It feels soft.
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And the, like something interesting that I stumbled on is like,
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How strong of a man are you and how brave of a man are you if you re scared to face yourself?
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Wow.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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That s the real bravery.
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Yeah.
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Sit in a room with yourself.
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That s like, that s courageous.
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Yeah.
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I think it goes back to what you were saying earlier that it s the perfection and positivity issue that we keep thinking that everything has to be like positive and sunny.
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And when I look inside of myself,
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I see tons of a dark side and stuff that I don t want to see.
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But I also know that that s not me because of how we were trained.
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The idea that, you know, the concept in all of the monk teachings is that the sun is always shining.
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It s just often covered by clouds.
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And so when you look up at the sky, all you see is the clouds.
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You don t see the sun and you think I am the clouds.
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So when you look at your thoughts, you see the cloudy thoughts and you think I m darkness.
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But actually the sun s always there.
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It s just, you can t see it.
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And so the light that me and you are, the light that everyone who s listening and watching is, is always there.
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It s just, we re just seeing all the dirt and the clouds and the rain and the, you know, and we then judge it and see it as negative rather than the fact that, hey, wait a minute, I m just, I m just going to find the light.
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And I understand that sometimes it s going to be a cloudy day, just like it is outdoors.
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Yeah.
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And that s what led me to feeling like a fraud.
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That song s amazing.
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That s what that is, is because looking at the cloud, thinking you are the cloud.
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And so then when people give you a compliment, you re like, they re giving you a compliment on you being the sun.
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And for me, I m like, if only you knew I was a cloud, I would look at my shadow self and the parts of me that I m ashamed of.
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It would make it impossible for me to receive love and compliments or anything positive.
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also tied in with feeling like a fraud was me having to analyze, well, why did my parents getting a divorce actually affect me?
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Why did the hate coming in actually affect me?
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Because on surface it felt so vapid, like your parents broke up and people don t like you, big deal, right?
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But when I, through therapy and through really growing down, that s when I learned like, okay, hold on, since I was a kid, my role and my identity came from being the savior of my family emotionally.
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And I talk about it on, I love you board where my dad was very reactive and my mom was like fatalistic.
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And I was just the one running around knocking on everyone s door to make sure like everyone was good after a big fight or whatever.
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Cause I was worried, genuinely worried.
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So the stakes were super high.
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They felt like life or death, like maybe there was gonna be self harm or something.
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And so my identity was tied to saving my family and helping them.
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So when my parents got divorced,
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it was the ultimate blow to my identity of being the savior.
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It wasn t just like, your parents broke up, bro, you re 23, get over it.
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It was like, who am I if my parents break up?
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Who am I if I can t save us?
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And then with the hate coming in,
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I got my self-worth from being approved and liked by everyone.
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And so when I got hate and a lot of it, it wasn t just you have haters get over it, it was who am I if people don t like me?
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So that s what threw me for a spin.
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It was, I feel like a fraud.
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That is so deep, yeah.
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Your identity is based on the roles you played.
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Right.
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And if you can no longer play that role.
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Who am I?
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Then what is your identity?
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Right.
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And that s where,
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It s hard because that means, going back to what you said earlier, which was really powerful, is that your values is the best place to start.
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Because your values is something you can control.
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If you only value yourself for a role you play for other people, which you don t control, now that s not your value.
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And when they break up or it goes astray, you don t know who you are anymore.
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That is... Devastating blow.
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Yeah.
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Especially when I didn t know why I was so upset by it.
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You know, I was like, this shouldn t be effective.
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I m 24, 25.
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Like, what s the big deal?
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But it just didn t go
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and then it was funny that like the hate and them divorcing came at the same time.
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And now when I look back, I m like, this was all like by design, you know, this was all to help me grow down.
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But yeah, it s like, you know, when you ve gotten your identity from a role that you ve been playing for so long and that role is taken away from you or threatened, it s like,
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Yeah, who are you?
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You said that phrase twice just now, growing down, not growing up.
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Yeah.
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What does that mean?
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Because I like that.
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I think a lot of times in my career, I was just focused on external growth and like, am I getting more followers?
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Am I getting more money?
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Am I getting more plaques?
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And am I growing up?
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And I wasn t focused on growing down into the core of who I am and getting to the root of it.
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and to the truth of myself.
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And that s what I ve been trying to do.
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That s what this album is, is me growing down, trying to get deeper and deeper into who I actually am.
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Because I m just trying to operate from a place of authenticity and truth.
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And it s hard to feel authentic and be authentic when you re operating from a place of shame.
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I m ashamed of who I am,
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and I m insecure about who I am, so how can I be authentic?
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Because authentic, being authentic would mean being insecure and being, and it s like, I can t be that, especially in rap.
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You know what I mean?
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So it s like, gotta mask it, gotta be omnipotent, you know?
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What was the darkest and scariest thing you saw when you started growing down?
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I think the biggest thing I, the like darkest thing and thought I had was like, I don t like myself.
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That was like the heaviest.
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And what was it that you didn t like about yourself?
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I was ashamed
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about how I ve handled my career.
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I was very mad about, at like 23 year old me, I would beat him up daily.
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I was mad about, you know, me being reactive towards people.
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I just didn t like anything about, you know, myself.
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And that was a real low point of like, once again, fraud, if only the world knew.
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you know, and I have a self-help book, right?
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And I mentioned that on fraud as well.
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It s like,
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Who am I like to try to give people a book?
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Like, and for me, the book s so successful and has helped a lot of people, but I look back at that book, I m like, it s like vapid to me now, you know?
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And I m glad it s helping people, but, and I shouldn t, I shouldn t denounce any version of me.
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That s like, you re watching it in real time, what I do.
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And yeah, that s the, that s the heaviest, darkest thing that I ve come to terms with.
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Not that it s a reality of mine that I want to come to terms with, but
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getting to a place of like, I don t, I don t like myself.
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That was the lowest point.
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I love what you just said that it s like being authentic means being able to accept that I feel insecure.
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Right.
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And that that last version of me just got me through that.
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And that doesn t make it good or bad, but it was a reality.
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But we think being authentic means being smooth and organized.
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What I ve learned in therapy is the admission of insecurity and feeling nervous is step one, because
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what happened to me and I think what happens to a lot of people is rejecting your insecurities leads to self-destruction.
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So for example, like I used to do interviews super drunk, right?
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Why?
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Because I was nervous and insecure about just being my authentic self.
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I didn t know how to be that version.
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So I would drink to knock the edge off.
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So like the rejecting of my insecurity led to self-destructive habits and
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overall a result that I don t like, you know?
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So yeah, I think just sitting in your insecurities and saying that it s okay to be insecure and feel nervous.
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And I think for me, it s like, nah, like, especially as men, like, nah, I m not allowed to, like, we gotta be the man, you know?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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I often like, even when I, if I ever end up, I don t go to many parties or events and things like that, but if I ever have to, or I do go for a specific purpose,
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And it was on the Trevor Noah interview, when Trevor came on the show, he said to me, he goes, Jay, you always seem really comfortable whenever I see you somewhere.
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And I was like, that s because I only really go to places I have a purpose.
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Like I was like, if I don t have a purpose there, I was like, if you ever see me uncomfortable, it s because I don t have a purpose, then I don t know what I m doing there.
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And I had a couple of those last year, which we talked about, it s funny enough.
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My team was like, oh, you should definitely go to this event.
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It s really important and stuff.
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And so I went along and I just felt really like insecure there and useless because I didn t have a role.
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I didn t have a purpose.
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I wasn t representing what I believe I go to.
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Obviously I was representing myself, but I mean, I wasn t there to represent anything bigger than me showing up.
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And I found that when I do feel like that, I just go up to one other person that I feel I could connect with and just be like, hey, are you feeling insecure too?
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Cause I am.
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And it s, and it s amazing because everyone s feeling insecure.
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Like, especially at like these big events that like no one, there s no one, no matter how cool you think anyone is, there is no one who s at an award show or an event or a party or anything that is feeling anything but insecure.
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I ve not met them at least.
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Right.
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And doesn t that break the wall down?
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Like as soon as you do that, it s like, it goes away.
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It s the resisting the insecurity that has everyone on edge and they re looking at you and you seem to have it all the way together.
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Meanwhile, you re panicking inside.
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And now they feel like, well, I got to have it all the way together.
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And we re all tense and just like acting.
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And if we could just be like, Hey, is everyone nervous?
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Like, it s almost like, let s all stand here naked.
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Like, that s what that does emotionally.
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You know what I mean?
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It s like, all right, cool.
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Now let s like, now let s continue.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And that happens in all like, you know, it happens in family events, it happens at weddings, it happens at holiday events.
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Like it happens in normal life.
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You don t, this isn t just about the entertainment industry.
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Like it happens everywhere.
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Yeah.
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And I fully agree with you that it s cause we re just resisting in your, in your words, like resisting that insecurity.
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Yeah.
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What s an insecurity that you are resisting for the longest time?
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Like what would you say was an insecurity that you ve just been holding onto for too long?
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Not feeling like I don t belong.
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that s probably like one of the biggest ones.
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Being a white guy in rap, in hip hop, with no cosign within the culture to sort of make me feel like I do belong, it was a massive insecurity of mine and I just came in guns blazing.
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Like, I don t need any of y all, look.
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And it s like, deep down, you wanted everyone though.
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You wanted help deep down, you know?
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But you masked it by, well, if I m not gonna get it, I ll do it myself.
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And that became like a really big like brand and motto for me.
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And I don t think people understand that my song, Do It Myself, and that energy, it was survival.
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It wasn t like, if you have people willing to help, you should tell them no.
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It was, I didn t have help.
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I wish I did, but I didn t.
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So I had to do it myself.
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Has there anyone who s ever reached out in the industry that you feel has?
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Not cosigned, obviously, but like giving you a bit of that kind of nurturing or has it still always been kind of like, I m making money.
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I think I ve met a lot of great people in the industry who have given me validation and like, you re great, you re dope.
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But like, yeah, I mean, I ve never been like taken under someone s wing.
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Yeah.
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You know, it was always just kind of like me and my manager just like going at this thing, you know, and, um,
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I m trying to be more proud of my younger self as much as I want to beat him up for how he was omnipotent and a maniac.
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But it s like, for what you were going through, you crushed.
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I don t know how you did all that.
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And that s what I Love You Boy, that song s about, especially on that third verse where it s like, you know, saying you deserve a pat on the back.
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You know, it s just like, I ve never given myself a pat on the back.
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And I wanted to take that song to like, as an opportunity to give myself the much needed, you know, pat on the back and compassion.
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Inspired by that song, if you saw like, if you were,
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If instead of me, your youngest self was sitting in front of you.
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This is a therapy exercise right here.
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Instead of me, if your youngest self was sitting in front of you right now, like sitting in this seat, what does he need to hear?
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No advice, but what does he need to hear?
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What does he need to hear?
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He needs to hear that you re okay, you re safe, and I got you.
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That s what he needs to hear.
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And what do you think he d say back?
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Probably, I don t need your help.
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Yeah.
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It s really interesting how like what I think all of us need from ourselves is just more compassion and more grace.
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And the younger version of me needs that so bad, needed that so bad, and I didn t get it.
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And he didn t know how to receive that help and receive that compassion.
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And I don t know if, you know, if I was talking to him and he rejected the help and compassion, I would just keep trying.
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Cause I know that s what he really needs.
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He just wants to feel safe, like he belongs, like it s going to be okay.
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Like he s allowed to make mistakes.
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You know, that s the other thing.
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Once again, being a perfectionist, it s like, it really is like hindering when it comes to everything, like accepting help, because once again, help is coded as criticism.
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as a perfectionist, feeling good about anything you ve done because you could have always done better.
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So you didn t quite nail your standard of perfection.
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And I just think like, that s what I m trying to get to now is like giving myself more grace.
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And I talk about it on Tunnel Vision where I say, I want to stop thinking that I got to go through hell to get the credit I desperately need to give to myself.
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You know, you can just do this an easier way.
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It s also hard being a high performer who gives grace to themselves.
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Yeah.
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Because that s the hard part, right?
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It s like, I want to perform at the best.
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but I know I need to be nice to myself, but I can t be too nice because if I m too nice to myself, then I can t perform my best.
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And it s like this fight inside of you.
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Yeah.
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I think it, it comes down to kind of what you were saying earlier, where it s like, if your toolkit is only shame and like dark motivation, then you re just going to use that.
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And it s not sustainable.
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I think for me, the light motivation is like,
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You know, I love what I m doing.
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You know, when I m on stage, I love the fans.
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I love performing.
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And as long as I did my best, I have to be okay with that.
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You know, I can say, okay, you know, I know I can do better than that, but tonight I did my best.
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And it s easier said than done.
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Like I m working on that, but I think that s the place to start is just knowing like, did you do your best with the resources that you had?
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And to think that you were supposed to just be this all knowing entity.
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It s like, that s arrogance, but that s where I would beat myself up a lot.
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It s like, how did you not know?
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you know, but it s like, you re allowed to not know everything.
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That s powerful.
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Yeah, that s powerful, actually, to look back and think, I wouldn t have done anything better.
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I m glad that I had to just go through that.
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When the Taliban banned music in Afghanistan, millions were plunged into silence.
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Radios were smashed, cassettes burned.
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You could be beaten or jailed or killed for breaking the rules.
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And yet, Afghans did it anyway.
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This is the story of how a group of people brought music back to Afghanistan by creating their own version of American Idol.
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The danger they endured.
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They said my head should be cut off.
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The joy they brought to the nation.
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You re free completely.
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No one is there to destroy you.
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I m John Legend.
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Listen to Afghan Star on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
6
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and what felt true to me back then, what felt authentic and with the reservoir of knowledge I had back then.
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That s what I based my decisions off of.
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Obviously now, seven years later, 10 years, whatever it is, I would make different decisions, but it s like, I can t be mad at 23 year old me that he didn t know what 30 year old me is.
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It s so hard for me to not want to beat him up.
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Like, you re such an idiot.
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All you had to do was like, read this one book and you would have even been better off, you know?
6
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Sometimes it feels like the answer was right there.
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But that s what it is, right?
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Like we have this habit as humans where we judge ourselves off of one conversation, one event, one performance, one song, one meeting.
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And what s really interesting thing is about that is that we then project that onto other people where we judge them on one song, one moment, one interaction, rather than looking at someone as this story of a human.
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And it s fascinating to me that you would never ever pick up a book
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and read one page and judge the whole book, no one really does that.
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You would read some of the book at least, but it s like with ourselves and with others, we don t see them as a story, we see them as a page.
6
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Yeah, that s so true.
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It s so brutal though.
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It s so brutal.
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It s so brutal.
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I do it to myself and I think,
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I think in the world of social media too, you re not allowed to make mistakes.
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Your one mistake is the book.
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That just tells me everything I need to know about you and how you treat yourself.
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Because I know like I tend to be, and this is like not a great thing, a very judgmental person.
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And I justify it by saying, relax, I judge myself too.
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It s like, that s not good though.
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Yeah.
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You know, and it s, but I do what you said.
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I look at one event and be like, you don t deserve anything because of that one convo or that one tweet or that one.
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Yeah.
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Not realizing that at that point, that was where that person was.
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Right.
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Right.
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And actually we open people up to change, including ourselves when we recognize that
6
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our capacity for change can increase.
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If you look back at an event like you re saying, and you re like, I actually appreciate it.
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That s what I knew then.
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I didn t do something I was proud of, but that s all I knew then.
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Now that I, I think there s a famous Maya Angelou quote where she says that, now that I know better, I do better.
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And the idea of,
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if you don t accept that that s possible for you and others, that s what actually keeps you in prison because you keep saying, no, no, no, that s who you are.
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That event 10 years ago is who you are and that s who you will ever be.
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It s so tough.
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That s so true.
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But I mean, in social media, you re not allowed to change your mind.
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That also keeps people, especially celebrities and people in the public eye like into this prison where it s like, no, no, no, no,
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What you said you believed, what you said 10 years ago, you better still believe that or you re fake.
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And it s crazy because you re allowed to change your mind.
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And not only are you allowed to change your mind, you re supposed to change your mind.
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You re supposed to now have a new belief system.
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It s not like Rick Rubin talked about it with you and I thought it was so spot on.
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It s like, if you still like have the same beliefs you did 20 years ago upon learning new things and you re not growing, like, you know, but.
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I think that s why you got to like remove yourself from social media and what the world and the mob of the internet, stop trying to reconcile with them, reconcile with yourself and give yourself the permission to change your mind.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I ve, I ve, what s something you think that you have changed your mind on from, let s say like,
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maybe 10 years ago, or maybe if you need to go back longer, 20 years ago, like I ll share one of mine.
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Mine was when I was young, I didn t, because I grew up in this mindset, I believed that people who had money had to do something dodgy to get money.
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Because that s the language that I was raised in.
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Like we always heard that like, oh yeah, but he doesn t pay his taxes.
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Or if I saw a nice car and I d be like, my family would be like, oh yeah, yeah, but they always do that dodgy business on the side.
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And so in my head, anyone who had money must be doing something wrong to have money.
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And that, not only did that limit me from appreciating others or admiring or learning from those people, it blocked me from thinking that was good for me and possible for me.
6
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Right.
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Because you would have had to do dodgy stuff.
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Because I would have had to do dodgy stuff and I thought I was a good person, so I don t, I m not going to do anything, I ll never do anything bad.
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So you ll never get money.
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Yeah, exactly.
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And then you all of a sudden start realizing where you need to meet.
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And this is why I love the podcast, because I want to show people or show sides of people or let people show sides of themselves where people can go, oh, that is possible.
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I can be a rapper and go to therapy.
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I can be...
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you know, I can be someone who makes songs about this, this, this, and work on myself.
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Like that, there is an and as opposed to like this, you know, finite.
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Yeah, exactly.
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So for me, that was a big one for me of recognizing that you can make money with integrity.
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You could use it in service.
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You could, it could be used proactively for purpose.
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And that,
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was a massive limiting belief and a negative belief I had.
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What was something for you that you changed your mind on?
6
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I think the big thing for me was thinking that I was always right.
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Ooh, that s a good one.
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That s the biggest one for me, because I was operating in this place, once again, of omnipotence, just that.
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I knew everything, everything I did was right, every decision I ve ever made was right, because look at my life.
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Clearly, everything I ve ever done was right, and everything I say is right, everything I know.
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So I got to a place now where I m so much more curious, and I m so much more...
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humble in the sense of like, I m open to being wrong.
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Because it s like, I believe what I believe, but I m open to changing my mind.
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I m open to someone else telling me their beliefs and me being open minded and curious about it.
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I m open to not always being right.
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And I think that
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is a much better like starting place.
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And that s, it s really interesting because everything we re saying is basically that paradox of like we were saying, you want to be ambitious, but you got to have grace for yourself.
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You want to be, you want to know your values, but you want to be open to learning more and changing them.
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And it s almost like everything is this.
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And I think that s where we struggled the most because whether it was parenting, whether it was school, whether it was,
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our background, we were always told that there was one right answer, right?
7
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Like you had to get- And it s in the back of the book.
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And it s in the back of the book, exactly, yeah, yeah.
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And it s like, there s one right answer that everyone has to get to.
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And if you re one mark off the answer, then it s the wrong answer.
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And the truth is that life is so variegated.
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It is so gray.
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It is, as you just said, even when you were talking earlier, you were like, there are so many layers to this.
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So it s like, one answer is,
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Material stuff doesn t make you happy, right?
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But it s like when you broke down the layers of like, actually, why did my parents divorce make me unhappy?
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It s because this, and so you re like, everything is so layered, but I feel like we haven t, I don t know if our brain, our brain almost needs not an app, but our brain needs the ability
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to be able to understand how everything is so multi-layered.
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But it s so much easier to just put someone in a box and go, that s what I m judging.
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And just be more flexible.
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And I think Atomic Habits talks about like keeping your identity small.
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And I thought it was so genius, talks about, you know, there s athletes who their identity is, I m an athlete, I m a point guard.
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And what happens when you re not playing basketball anymore though?
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and they have this identity crisis and sometimes it gets really severe.
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And he talks about how like, instead of saying I m an athlete, how about saying I m a hard worker who works well with teams and so that you can still apply what your strengths are from being an athlete into other aspects of your life after being an athlete is done.
7
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And I thought that was so powerful because it s so easy to get tied up into,
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I m a rapper or I m a this or I m a that.
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And you start trying to like do things based off of the perception of yourself.
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And I just think being more flexible, you know, and not being so rigid on who you are and just, you know, be open.
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What s something that you were very, I guess,
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inflexible about, unflexible about, and now that you ve become more flexible about in your identity?
7
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I think being a man and being what I thought that means, like being stern, not showing any emotion, not showing like anything is affecting me, not receiving help, doing it myself, all these things, like that to me is the most valuable thing that I m now flexible on is because I ve learned that
7
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there s strength in vulnerability and there s strength in being honest and there s strength in collaboration.
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Learning from a positive male role model who s older than you and just can give you new wisdom, new knowledge.
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It s like there s strength in collaboration.
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I think we ve talked about it in therapy.
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It was this documentary that my therapist was talking about.
7
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And he was talking about how alpha males who lead
7
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by dominance via like fear are often like exiled or killed.
7
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And the ones who lead through collaboration and cohesion, like exhibit peace and like people love them.
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And it s so funny, cause I think growing up, like we would idolize those male figures who were the like just dominant, you know, and just invoke fear and all these things.
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And I m just trying to help myself and I m also trying to help my fans.
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And then on a real, real specific level, I m trying to be,
7
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a lighthouse for young men that can look at me and say, you know what?
7
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I don t have to have it all figured out because he doesn t.
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And if he s allowed to make mistakes, I m allowed to make mistakes.
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I m trying to get men and people to just be nicer to themselves, have more compassion, have more grace.
7
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I love what you were saying about leaders because
7
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I feel like there is that perception that leaders have to be stoic and strong and cold.
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And it was really interesting to me because I m still close with my monk teachers and like, they re the kind of people that like would come and sit in the back on the floor of a class and listen to a young monk give a talk.
7
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And that was considered humility and the strength of a leader was like, they weren t enforcing their authority.
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Like they would always say like a real leader doesn t,
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I would always hear them say this, a real leader doesn t demand respect, they command it.
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It s natural for them.
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They don t have to walk into the room and all eyes are on me.
7
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They don t have to do something big to gain attention.
7
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They actually would come on and put the spotlight on you.
7
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But it s interesting because that isn t our general belief around leaders.
7
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we almost want to be pushed around and moved around to think someone s powerful, right?
7
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It s almost like if someone s kind and gracious, you kind of think of them as like a soft, a soft and a pushover.
7
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Yeah.
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And so I think there s so much rewiring that almost needs to go on into what is healthy leadership or
7
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I know, and I m not the epitome of where dudes should be looking, but it s like, I agree.
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I think there s a rewiring that has to happen on what it means to be a man.
7
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And I think men need to also stop looking for what it means to be a man from women.
7
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And women need to stop even caring what men say when it comes to what does it mean to be a woman?
7
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We don t know each other s experiences, you know?
7
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Men need more male collaboration, positive male collaboration, positive role models.
7
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And I think it s what you said earlier, like knowing that we re wrong.
7
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if we are sitting with someone to learn about them, to actually go into it going, I probably don t know what you re going through right now, and I m probably wrong, as opposed to like, yeah, I already know, I ve got you figured out, like all men are like this, all women are like this, or whatever it may be, which is kind of how we live in the world.
7
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Does anything...
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Do you sleep well?
7
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What keeps you up at night?
7
SPEAKER_00
I sleep well now.
7
SPEAKER_00
I got an Oura ring.
7
SPEAKER_00
Oh, nice.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
I like the Oura ring.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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I don t know.
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I m 30 now.
7
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I m trying to like be in bed by, you know, midnight.
7
SPEAKER_00
Dude, you ll get it.
7
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I m 36 this year and I sleep at like 9.30 PM, 10 PM.
7
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
7
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That s beautiful.
7
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Yeah.
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It s so good.
7
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I ve been going to sleep at like 9.50, getting like eight hours of sleep.
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I feel like waking up going on walks.
7
I m like, who am I?
7
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This is crazy.
7
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How does it feel to have hit 30 and 31 soon?
7
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Even Santiago, this feels like my debut album because it just feels like this is a version of myself that has not been shown to the world.
7
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And I still feel as young as I ever felt, but I just feel like I know myself more.
7
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I m more comfortable with myself.
7
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I m living in more of my truth and authenticity.
7
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And I m excited.
7
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I just feel...
7
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I feel blessed to make it out of my twenties alive, you know, without any like drug problems or anything.
7
SPEAKER_01
Cause looking back, I m like, I can see, you know, reasons for numbing the pain, you know, but, um,
7
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Yeah, I m excited.
7
SPEAKER_00
I also love the, you know, I was watching you, I m always following everything you re up to.
7
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And I love the way you talk to the fans when you re on stage and when you push from it, but also how you ve been encouraging so many young artists to like jump on tracks and like be a part of the music through TikTok and everything else.
7
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And like, I think that s so dope, man.
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Cause I, it just, I think there was, I think there was one when you do with Caitlin, right?
7
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Like, yeah.
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And it was just like,
7
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I just found that whole approach to be so true to how you came up and what you do and like being able to pass on.
7
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How does that feel to be able to now like- It s incredible.
7
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I feel like I ve said it before to like my friends and people, like you don t really feel the power of your platform or the power of your money until you give it away and see how it affects someone who maybe doesn t have that.
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It sort of like snaps you out of it for a second.
7
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It snaps you into really what you ve built.
7
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But yeah, I mean, for me, the approach on TikTok and putting Caitlyn on the song, it s a no brainer.
7
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And that s where I m glad I don t have an ego in that sense, in that field.
7
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It s like, if I m putting up a song,
7
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And someone is affected by it enough to want to do their own version and people love it.
7
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And I think it sounds good.
7
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Why would I not just like make that a thing?
7
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Just like, this is the entertainment business.
7
SPEAKER_01
And it s like, meaning we re in the business of people enjoying what you re doing.
7
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This is a cheat code.
7
SPEAKER_01
They ve already said that they enjoy it.
7
SPEAKER_01
Just give it to them.
7
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It s like, yeah.
7
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I thought it was dope.
7
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I loved it too.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, she s great.
7
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Very talented.
7
SPEAKER_00
You just mentioned the ego there.
7
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Where does the ego still block you sometimes?
7
SPEAKER_00
That s somewhere where I don t have an ego.
7
SPEAKER_01
How would you describe the ego?
7
SPEAKER_01
It s a great question.
7
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Because then I could answer.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s a great question.
7
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That s why I want to give you a very thoughtful answer.
7
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I would say that the ego is
7
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any moment in which you create a false sense of security.
7
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So you re creating a false sense of being safe.
8
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has been arrogant, blah, blah, blah.
8
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Because those are all ultimately, it s a false self-defense mechanism.
8
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So like, for example, with my wife, it s like, if my wife tells me something that I know is blatantly true, my ego will even construct something where I m like, oh yeah, but this happened before and this, and it s like, I m constructing a true, what I m saying is true, it s factual, but I m still using it just to defend my ego, because I m scared of just saying like, you know.
8
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That you re wrong.
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I do that all the time.
8
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So the wrong part s true, but like, where do you create a false sense of safety in your life or a false sense of security?
8
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I think trying to constantly
8
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save my mom emotionally and take on my family s emotions as my responsibility, because without me doing that, they re not safe, is like a really big crux of like my stress, you know?
8
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And it s not on them, it s on me.
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And it s really me not
8
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Like I m not allowing my mom to pull herself out of the hole unless I go down there with her.
8
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But that s really the opposite of empowering.
8
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It s like, I need to let go, but letting go is so scary because if I feel like she s drowning or if I feel like my brother s drowning or my sister or whoever I love is drowning,
8
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and I m watching them drown, how am I supposed to not go in and save them?
8
SPEAKER_00
But the reality is sometimes they re just flapping their arms and their feet are on the ground.
8
SPEAKER_00
And it just looked like they were drowning, you know, but.
8
SPEAKER_00
Dude, that is a great answer.
8
SPEAKER_01
Was it?
8
SPEAKER_00
That is a great answer.
8
SPEAKER_01
No, because you just, there was another definition as when you asked me that question that came to my mind, it s,
8
SPEAKER_01
and whatever anyone s belief in God is, when I say the word God, it s like God, universe, whatever you personally choose, but like the ego is when you choose to play God instead of play your part for God.
8
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
8
SPEAKER_00
Right?
8
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so that was a good answer.
8
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And that s why I say it s a great answer because that is exactly what s happening.
8
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It s like you re saying it s all on me.
8
SPEAKER_00
Right.
8
SPEAKER_01
And you re trying to be the universe.
8
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The almighty me.
8
SPEAKER_00
The almighty omnipotent.
8
SPEAKER_00
You used the word at the beginning.
8
SPEAKER_01
Like that s a God-like word, right?
8
SPEAKER_01
Like where you re like,
8
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everything rests and depends on me.
8
SPEAKER_01
Right.
8
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Which means if I do it, I m going to save it.
8
SPEAKER_01
And if I m not there, it s going to fall apart.
8
SPEAKER_01
Right.
8
SPEAKER_01
And that s ego because like you just rightly said, like not only you can love someone and let them still grow by themselves and still be there for them, but you can t grow for them.
8
SPEAKER_00
Right.
8
SPEAKER_01
But when you want to grow for someone instead of grow with them or help them grow.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I think that that level of like omnipotence and that level of control also
8
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influences lack of confidence.
8
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Because by me being like, let me handle it, really says, oh, so you think that if I handle it,
8
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you know, me being my mom, like, oh, you think if I handle it and don t let you help me, Russ, that like, I can t do it?
8
SPEAKER_00
You know?
8
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And I m just like, yeah, kind of.
8
SPEAKER_00
You know, but I need to, it s just really, it s coming back to that place of my role and my identity.
8
SPEAKER_00
I always played the role of helping and being responsible emotionally for people and saving them and fixing things.
8
SPEAKER_00
And so it s just second nature.
8
SPEAKER_00
I get very hypervigilant when someone around me is upset.
8
SPEAKER_00
Because if you re upset, it s my fault, is what it gets like coded as.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I m trying to unlearn that, but that s tough.
8
SPEAKER_00
Because like I said, I feel, or when I was a kid, the stakes seemed so high.
8
SPEAKER_00
It felt like it was life or death if I don t help.
8
SPEAKER_00
What if someone self harms, et cetera.
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But now,
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when someone s upset, I still can t let go and still be there for them, but not feel like I have to go down into the hole with them because I m still operating from that childlike role.
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And I m just working on understanding that they re okay, they re going to be okay.
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No one s saying cut them off and don t talk to anyone, but it s like, you don t need to go down into the hole with them.
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Yeah, that s beautiful.
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And man, the album Santiago is inspired by Paulo Coelho s Alchemist, which is a legendary, if you haven t heard of, I mean you have to have heard of this book, everyone s listening, if you haven t, it s a legendary book by a legendary author.
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When did you first come across the book and why did you feel like you wanted to bring music into the book?
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So Boogie is my best friend, put that book in my hand when I was probably 17, 18.
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I met him last time.
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Did you?
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Yeah.
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He brought him with you last time.
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He s such a great dude.
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He s incredible.
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So he put like that book in my hand and Napoleon Hill in my hand, you know, and crazy books to read at that age.
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And I was instantly like,
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it became like a Bible for me, you know?
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And there was just so many parallels that I found and I just, I ve like opened it back up, you know, a few times over the years, but for whatever reason, two years ago, summer of 2021, I decided to reread it.
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And you know how you can like read a book that you ve already read, but you read it at a different time in your life and all of a sudden different things stick out and it resonates deeper.
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And so it just felt
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It just spoke to me so deeply than even before.
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And I was like, man, I want to make a whole album that parallels the book with my story.
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But what ended up happening was it was hard for me to just tell my story.
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and not make an album about the alchemist.
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And so that s why I ended up saying it was loosely inspired by the alchemist because at the inception, it was truly like, it felt like I couldn t write about my life.
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I had to write about Santiago s, but then Paulo Coelho says something in, and I think the forward where he says, Santiago is my journey, but it s your journey because one man s journey is everyone s journey.
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And that was the unlock for me and the permission for me to like, tell my story,
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And there is parallels within The Alchemist and my natural story, but it s not a complete side-by-side thing.
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It was a lighthouse for me, the wind and oasis.
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It was things that I related to, but I still had my own input on.
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But yeah, a complete framework and lighthouse, and he s a genius.
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I sent him the album and
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What did he say?
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Yeah, he likes it.
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So it s like, that to me was like, this is insane.
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That s beautiful, man.
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What a beautiful homage to like, you know, one of the great writers of our time.
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I was nervous because I m like, it was so, so insane.
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I start making this album summer 2021.
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He doesn t follow me on Twitter.
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Randomly, like right when I start to make it, he follows me on Twitter.
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You know, he follows like 160 people.
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And I was like, what are the odds that like while I m making this, but you know, if you read the alchemist, the signs and all these things, I m like, all right.
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Clearly I m supposed to be reading this, or unless he s got the room bugged, like, I don t know what s going on.
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But I, so I told, right when he followed me, I told him, I was like, yo, I m actually making an album about like loosely inspired by the alchemist.
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And he was like, that s so great.
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Keep me posted.
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And he would like check in periodically, like, yo, how s it coming?
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And he doesn t follow me anymore.
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I don t think it s personal, but.
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I love it, I love it.
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You just, you took Santiago down a different path.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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No, that s beautiful, man.
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I love that.
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I love that.
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If there s one song, Russ, you ve been amazing.
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This has been such a, it s always great having you here.
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I ve got two questions for you.
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One is, is there anything I haven t asked you that you want to talk about?
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Because you re a friend and I have to honor you with that question.
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Is there anything we haven t dove into that you re like,
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or even if it s quieter and you re like, it s on my heart right now, I need to say it.
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The floor is yours.
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No, I think, honestly, I think we touched on everything.
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Yeah.
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And I m really, really happy with how this went.
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I appreciate you having me for real.
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Of course, man.
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I appreciate you.
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I was looking, you can come back on whenever you want.
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Like this is like, it s, it s, I love conversations where they really are just like a back and forth.
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That s how I feel with you.
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I m just like, we can just talk about stuff and figure stuff out and not know the answer.
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And you know, but if there s one,
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I m gonna say my one, you can say yours.
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What is the one track you want everyone to go stream after listening to this episode?
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Which one would you recommend?
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I love you, boy.
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I was gonna say the same one, yeah.
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I think it s so aligned with today s conversation.
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But the other ones that I recommend, too, that we discussed today, Fraud, really powerful.
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Oasis, highly recommend, too, as well.
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And then, of course, go listen to the whole album.
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Russ, you ve been amazing to have back on.
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Thank you.
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I appreciate you so much as a human, as a artist.
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I don t know anyone who s made mental health and music seem that cool as you have, which I love because it s my life s work, but seeing you do it in your way is so empowering.
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And I think there are a whole group of listeners that are going to come up and just have different viewpoints because of you.
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I hope so, man.
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Yeah, no, it s happened already.
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It s happened and it s happening.
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So, but thank you, man.
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I appreciate you being on On Purpose.
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Thank you.
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And listen, it s a testament to like, the reason why I always want to come back here is because the energy you have and like the barriers down vibe you have where there s no judgment and the depth you have, it was just such a no brainer for me to like, I always got to go back and sit with him because it s just such a like, even the energy in this room, it s just so curious and like safe.
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you know, so that s a testament to you.
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Thank you for saying that man, I appreciate it.
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Anytime, anytime.
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And everyone who s been listening and watching wherever you are, whether you re walking your dog, whether you re cooking, whether you re driving to and from work or whether you re at the gym, make sure you tag me and Russ in all your posts on TikTok, on Instagram.
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Let us know what resonated with you, what stuck out to you on Twitter, on threads.
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I love seeing the little clips.
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I love seeing how you re enjoying the podcast.
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It means the world to me.
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I know it mean,
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a lot to Russ, and tag us when you re streaming as well.
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Santiago, it s out right now.
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Thank you so much, everyone.
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If you loved this episode, you ll love my interview with Will Smith on owning your truth and unlocking the power of manifestation.
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Anybody who hasn t spoken to their parents or their brother, call them, write,
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Now.
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Don t think you re going to have a chance to call them tomorrow or next week.
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That opportunity with my father changed every relationship in my life.
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A new season of Bridgerton is here.
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And with it, a new season of Bridgerton, the official podcast.
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I m your host, Gabby Collins.
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And this season, we are bringing fans even deeper into the ton.
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Watch season three of the Shondaland series on Netflix.
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Then fall in love all over again by listening to Bridgerton, the official podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Subscribe to catch a new episode every Thursday.