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The following podcast is a dear media production.
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She s a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire.
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Fantastic.
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And he s a serial entrepreneur, a very smart cookie.
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And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostic are bringing you along for the ride.
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Get ready for some major realness.
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Welcome to the skinny confidential him and her.
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I had this other passion of acting and performing and storytelling, and I was directing stuff in high school.
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Also felt like I was really good at that and had a sort of like quality about me, if you will.
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I had a lot of people in my life be like, oh, you could totally be an actor.
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It also became kind of my ticket out of Atlanta.
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So I went to, like, a film acting camp in LA, New York Film Academy, for a summer in high school, and it exposed me to Los Angeles.
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I made a bunch of friends, like, met Nepo Babies for the first time as we ve come to love and know them, and realized how much bigger the world was.
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This episode with Tommy Dorfman blew my mind.
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The vulnerability in this episode is out of control.
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I really felt like I got a unique perspective of what it was like for Tommy to grow up.
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She revealed in an interview that she had been privately identifying and living as a woman for almost a year.
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She chose to retain her birth name of Tommy, which she feels very connected to.
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And in this episode, you ll really see the behind the scenes of what she s been through.
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She was horribly bullied when she was young, and it was really interesting to see through her eyes how it affected her.
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She also is a highly accomplished actress, writer, photographer, and director.
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And this interview is fascinating.
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I actually, like, loved it out of all the interviews we did in New York.
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This was my favorite.
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I think Tommy is living life on her own terms.
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And I think it s really cool to see the evolution of it all.
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On that note, let s welcome Tommy Dorfman to The Him and Her Show.
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This is the skinny, confidential him and her.
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Talk to us about your childhood.
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You told me you grew up in Georgia.
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Yeah, I grew up in Atlanta, Georgia.
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I m the youngest of five siblings.
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Two of which are half-siblings, one s adopted, so kind of like a melting pot family dynamic, if you will.
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There s a 14-year age gap between me and my eldest brother.
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My parents worked in the car industry up until very recently.
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They both retired from that.
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And yeah, I grew up around like football, you know, Go Dogs, Georgia football.
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My dad played, I grew up.
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you know, in the suburbs briefly and then we moved into Midtown and I was kind of, yeah, I was a weird kid.
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I was like a trans kid in the early 90s.
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My parents, while super liberal to an extent, you know, as liberal as you can be in the South at a certain time period, right, like very progressive and like growth mindset people and entrepreneurial and well-traveled enough that they understood that like the lived experience of Georgia and Alabama and like
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you know, New Hampshire where my mom is from in Ohio, like, was not the, I would say, the blueprint for the rest of the world.
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So they were really supportive of me expressing myself in a myriad of ways growing up.
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And so, you know, I wore a lot of girls clothes and expressed a really feminine side as a kid that
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while it was celebrated, I guess, at home in a lot of ways, it wasn t necessarily understood.
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There wasn t language to support that.
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My parents didn t have resources.
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Media was in a completely different landscape.
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Queer representation was not super accessible beyond like Will and Grace or terrible portrayals of queer people and trans people.
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So I think my parents just did the best of what they had.
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They really just tried to support me as a kid.
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I was an artsy kid, I was a ballet dancer my whole childhood.
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I was like into Bikram yoga.
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I was doing like musical theater, which segued into acting, directing as a kid, making little short weird videos.
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Just was kind of like all over the place with my interests, like super undiagnosed ADHD, which I ve recently been diagnosed and starting to like find ways to treat.
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But I think with expressing myself,
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in a way that society didn t know how to handle as a kid.
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I was met with a lot of conflict and a lot of bullying and a lot of things that could, I think, have dampened my individuality and certainly put a filter on that.
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I learned how to contain parts of myself for safety, but it also gave me a certain amount of tough skin and, I guess, street smarts to be a chameleon in my life.
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On one hand, that can be a great resource.
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And on the other hand, I ve had to relearn who I am and who I want to be in the world and not feel like I need to perform or present for people for safety or for acceptance.
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So it was an interesting childhood for sure.
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I mean, all of my siblings are cis and straight, married kids, divorced kids, living in Atlanta still to this day.
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And I was always black sheep, if you will, of the family.
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How did you process bullying at a young age?
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I ve had to rely as an adult on the lived realities of other people in my life.
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Trauma for me, my response is like, I don t remember.
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There are like gaps in my memory from childhood from abuse, whether it s verbal, emotional abuse at school or as I got into my mid-teens, early adulthood, I took to drugs and alcohol to kind of cope with.
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the outside world and found myself in a lot of other situations, sexual abuse, other things.
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So I kind of have a very blotchy memory of childhood and I ve had to rediscover in my 20s and now I m in my early 30s.
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how I handled situations.
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And so from what I understand, I, and I have like weird little letters that I had written myself or like mantras that I d written myself as a kid.
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It s a strange thing to do now that you think about it, but I guess if you re like desperate for help or comfort or safety, like you look to different tools to find that.
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But I m pretty, I was like a get back up kind of kid.
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I was like a fall down, push me down, I m gonna get back up.
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And where do you think that comes from?
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I think it s just like an innate, rule-breaking, kind of fuck the patriarchy spirit that I have.
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I don t know how else.
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I mean, fuck the patriarchy, I feel like I sound like a bumper sticker right now and that s not the intention.
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But I just think
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I became okay really early on that I saw the world differently than other people around me.
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And I could, like I said, kind of adjust myself accordingly.
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And then puberty hits and everyone s kind of going through weird shit.
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And so that s when I stopped presenting in more feminine ways in my childhood.
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Because I just honestly, I remember, the one thing I do remember is just being over it.
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Like I was over people making fun of me.
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I was over getting threatened.
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I was over getting like hit.
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I was over coming home.
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And from what I can remember, like sobbing at the dining table with my family.
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We always ate family dinner together.
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Like we re super, super tight knit and then rinsing and repeating.
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And I had to transfer schools.
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in third grade as a result.
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So this is early adolescence, right?
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And then I went to a more progressive school in Atlanta called Paideia.
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which preached a lot of things, but didn t necessarily practice that in the DNA, which is fine.
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But it was definitely a safer space for me to explore myself and be myself.
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And it made being gay really easy, honestly.
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That wasn t a problem in high school when I came out at 14 as a gay boy.
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But at that point, I had already swallowed so much of my trans identity.
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And
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the girl
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started dating guys.
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And I think I just, you know, I dealt with it in by, by keeping myself really busy, which is probably wild.
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Did you feel compelled to start having sex with women to kind of rebel against what people, either the way people were bullying you or to prove people like what I really, being the youngest child, I really looked up to
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My siblings, especially like my brother, who s closest in age to me, and he was he sort of was an early developed kid.
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And so I thought there was kind of like a status quo I had to hit or a quota, if you will.
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So I felt like it gave me a certain amount of like protection to.
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have girlfriends and have these experiences at a really young age.
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I was always watching really mature television and film and reading books that were well beyond what I should have been reading as a fifth grader and a sixth grader.
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The internet was flourishing at that time for millennials like myself.
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We had access to things that even my older siblings didn t have access to and how
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How old are you if you don t mind me asking?
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I m 31.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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So we re about five years older than you.
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Okay.
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So 87.
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Yeah.
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87.
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My brothers.
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Yeah.
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And we, I always say we re on the cusp where like Lauren and I didn t get the full like iPhone experience until we got out of college.
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Like it was like, I think it came out, like we were the group that when you signed up for Facebook, you could only use it if you were, had a college email address.
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Right.
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And like everyone brought out a full digital camera.
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and then uploaded the entire album the night of.
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I recently was going through my Facebook download because I deleted my Facebook when my first TV show came out that ended up being really successful.
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So I was like, oh, fuck no.
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People cannot see these photos.
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And it s crazy that we would post hundreds of photos at a time.
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And now we post one and it has to be the perfect one.
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Maybe, like once a week.
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I wanna know, you looking back as an adult now, and seeing all of these young kids bullying you, why do you think that that happened?
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Do you think it s because that they were ingrained with that from their parents?
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Do you think people are just scared of seeing something different?
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When you reflect as an adult and look back at all those people, why do you think that they were bullying?
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I think people are really afraid of the unknown.
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And the best way for me to speak about transphobia especially is just to say that to be trans and to transition in a public way and own this part of yourself and to choose to embark on that journey, because it s not a choice to be trans, but there are things that we can do to affirm our identity.
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whether it s medical or spiritual, so many different ways, right?
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Coming out in and of itself is stepping into that part of your identity.
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That kind of autonomy and like self-assuredness and clarity is so scary to people.
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like a global level.
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And it s also interesting, though, because even though you re talking about being bullied, to me, there s a confidence that you were that you were yourself, no matter what people thought.
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So that s it s interesting.
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It s you don t sound like you were insecure about who you were.
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You sound super confident and self-assured.
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And maybe that was something that that the the kids were insecure about, if that makes sense.
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Oh, totally.
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I think, and I think that s kind of what I mean about this, like practicing autonomy is in direct conflict with humanity who just does like what their parents did and what their dad s dad did.
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Right.
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Like we inherit.
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DNA and we inherit circumstance, right?
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And so I think for me to go against the grain so, I guess, profoundly at that time was really challenging for people.
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It was challenging for my peers.
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It was challenging for my siblings at times.
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I know it was challenging for my parents only because they were scared for me.
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There was a big fear around my safety.
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from a really young age?
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Well, especially we have young kids, and to think, like, our kid coming home and crying at the table and being bullied, like, I don t know how, I don t know if I d be able to contain myself.
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So I think, like, to your parents  credit, that must have been... Hard.
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Very hard.
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Yeah, they re, they have a really...
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beautiful parenting style that I will not fully adopt, but take pieces of as we all probably have from our families.
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But they really gave me the room to make decisions for myself, probably younger than I maybe should have.
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But by nature of that, I developed like a sense of self-assuredness and confidence, which has definitely propelled me in my career as an adult.
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This like kind of dumb faith that I can just do whatever.
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And also no fear of failure.
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I mean, I fail all the time.
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And as my public-facing group,
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stature has grown, my fear of failure has seeped in a little bit more.
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It s like if you like learned how to ski when you re a kid, you can just bomb down the mountain as a kid, but then you get older and you re like, oh wait, my knees kind of hurt.
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Oh, this is steep.
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I m taller now, like this looks steeper.
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As I ve climbed, trudged sort of up the mountain of Hollywood or whatever the fuck, I ve developed new fears that I never had before.
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I mean, I was just like dead set on
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being an actor and not just being an actor but like being a famous actor and like building a life for myself and directing and making television shows like I was like I had a really clear and then working in fact like I was like I can do all these things like there s no there s no problem and I think a lot of that stems from one having entrepreneurial parents who
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understood what it meant to like try things out and like fall on your face and get back up and to developing thick skin from like having to combat, ignore, you know, I morphed into a lot of different versions of myself to protect myself.
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No doubt.
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What does that mean when you say that you ve said that?
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I mean, you said you ve been a chameleon.
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What does that like?
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Give us an example.
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Yeah, I would.
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I mean, I literally
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only wore girls clothes up until I was 11.
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And I don t know exactly what happened, but what I do know is I lit those clothes on fire in my driveway.
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What age did you start wearing women s clothes?
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As soon as I started dressing myself.
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What age is that?
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I have a three-year-old.
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What age is that?
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Like three, four.
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No, I was very, very clear.
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And they d be like, what do you want to be when you grow up?
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I d be like, I m a princess.
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I m going to be a princess.
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You always liked girls  clothes?
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Always, yeah.
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No, and I just loved things that we would associate with girl.
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I loved Barbie and all of the kind of trope-y, queer narratives.
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And you don t know why you burned your clothes at 11.
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I know that I was fucking sick of being made fun of and I was like sick of.
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people asking me questions about what I was wearing and picking on me.
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And I was like, I was ready for a reinvention.
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At the time, so I have two younger siblings, two younger sisters actually.
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And as an older brother, like I was very protective of them.
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One s nine years younger than me, one s three years younger than me.
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You had older brothers.
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Oh, he was so protective.
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And so, and one of them, like when they see kids bullying you, how does that manifest with them?
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I mean, someone punched me with a school book
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from what I remember like hit me with their backpack and the textbook like cut my eye when I was in kindergarten.
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My brother was the only overlap we had at a school was kindergarten and he was in fifth grade about to go into sixth grade, which at that time was middle school in Georgia in our public school system.
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And I don t know exactly what happened, but I know that kid got fucked up for sure.
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Okay.
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So your brothers were protective, very protective, worried for me.
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And so when I told my brother, I was like,
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So this is where we rewrite history.
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I thought my brother had done that.
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And I had this resentment towards my brother for lighting my clothes on fire.
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And he was like, no, you like, I think you were the one who did that.
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And you, you like, and I think in my vision of it, it s like, it was like a great mountain of clay.
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And it like, it was like, probably like a couple of skirts or whatever.
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But I had this idea that I could just rid myself of that version of myself and I could just reintroduce myself.
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And people do this.
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I have middle school-aged nieces, nephews, kids in my family who I ve watched take on completely different personalities to assimilate.
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And so I think that s what I mean by chameleon.
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I just was like... And he and his friends, his bros, stoner friends, took me
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to Dillard s or like Bloomingdale s or something like at, um, I think we were at Lennox mall, maybe perimeter mall in Georgia and kind of like bought me this whole new wardrobe, like went to PacSun, like borrowed my brother s clothes and like the next literally.
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And I,
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I had a nanny at the time, so my parents worked so much, Heather, and I asked her about this, because as I was transitioning, I was trying to understand, like, what the fuck happened?
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Like, when did I know?
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She was like, honestly, like, I saw you on a Friday, and you were, like, the sweetest, loveliest, coolest kid.
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And on Monday, you were, like, the meanest boy teenager I d ever met in my life.
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What s interesting to me is that Amanda Bynes was in a movie where they dressed her like a boy.
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Oh, she s the man.
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She s the man.
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Yeah, based off of Shakespeare play.
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She said that when she saw herself as a boy, it did something to her head.
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She wasn t used to seeing herself as a boy.
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Interesting.
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She said that there was a sort of like a
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a switch that went off that, I mean, she s obviously had a very tough time with her addiction.
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Something happened when she saw herself like that.
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So the reason I m asking is when you, you see yourself as a girl, but then your brothers take you to PacSun, you dress up as a boy.
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When you are looking in the mirror and you see yourself as a boy, but you feel you re a girl, was there, did that do something to your psyche?
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I think at that point, I had already begun whatever subconscious process of swallowing down whatever trans identity feelings I had.
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And I was quick to affirm my self-worth through the lens of the people around me.
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And the response to me assimilating into society and what was expected of a boy was very positive.
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So you basically were living your life to make other people comfortable.
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Yeah, I had girls.
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I mean, that s kind of what queer people do in so many ways until we can t do it any longer.
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Yeah, completely.
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Made my life easier, made me more comfortable.
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I had girls flirting with me.
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I started to become really popular in a way that I hadn t totally been before.
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And I was kind of, you know, I was like a lonely, isolated, and I spent, I still would spend a lot of time alone because I like needed my alone time.
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You know, even dancing ballet was, is, is a very binary sport in art.
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Like it s very, like a lot of the boys in ballet are straight.
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Like they re just like super like masculine, like machismo kind of guys.
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And the girls are, you know, and all the pas de deuxs are male, female.
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I mean, things are changing, but even when I was in like strict ballet world,
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you know, they would make me take my nail polish off.
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Like I was only in class with boys.
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So even there I was like assimilating into a certain type of like masculine performance.
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And then I was getting rewarded for that.
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I was getting better parts.
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I was getting more attention.
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I was commanding more space.
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I m really happy you came on the show.
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We re having this discussion because I think
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a lot of people have a really tough time understanding and having this conversation.
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A lot of straight people feel very scared.
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Like what, what do you ask?
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What do you not ask?
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And I think it gets very charged up and people get very angry.
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And I think like a lot of this, so my, I remember at a very young age going to a gay wedding because my aunt was gay.
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Right.
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And so for me, like I grew up with, there s like, okay, that s my aunt.
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Where did you grow up?
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San Diego.
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Okay, great.
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And she lived in an area called Hillcrest, which was a prominently gay area.
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Do you know Kelly Connor?
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Yeah, yeah, we do.
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Sorry, one of my friends.
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Mark Gaudici, Kelly Conard.
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Mark Gaudici is like my, I lived at Mark Gaudici s house for a year.
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No, we can cut this out.
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I lived with him for a year.
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My mom was best friends with his mom.
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I love Mark.
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SPEAKER_01
Mark works at Vogue now, really fabulous editor.
2
SPEAKER_00
He s so crazy what he s done.
2
SPEAKER_01
Was editor of Chief of Garage Magazine for a long time and also Taylor and Gino.
2
SPEAKER_01
Does that name ring a bell?
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t know, too.
2
SPEAKER_01
So Taylor and Kelly and I know each other because I work with Tom Brown where she works now.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
And she used to work at Vogue.
2
SPEAKER_01
She used to work at Vogue.
2
SPEAKER_00
We have to take a picture and send it tomorrow.
2
SPEAKER_01
We ll send it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Tom Brown s dressing me for the ABT gala.
2
SPEAKER_01
Bring it back to ballet.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think it s next week or something.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s really cool.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
We could totally, we need to text.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh my God.
2
SPEAKER_00
We have to text him.
2
SPEAKER_02
I guess like what I m saying is I think a lot of people, and I saw this big, like a lot of press going around when JVN went on Dax Shepard show and I think like that didn t, that was, didn t go well.
2
SPEAKER_02
Or maybe it did go well.
2
SPEAKER_02
But I think the thing is, is
2
SPEAKER_02
I think a lot of people are scared to have the conversation, scared to try and understand the perspective.
2
SPEAKER_02
I think we re scared of asking the wrong question or stepping in the wrong direction.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I think that s part of the problem because for me and why I brought up the wedding that I went to, it was when I got an understanding in a context
2
SPEAKER_02
it opened up my entire world.
2
SPEAKER_02
I m like, okay, I get it.
2
SPEAKER_02
I understood.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I think a lot of this stuff and bullying and anger and hatred, it comes from ignorance, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
Totally.
2
SPEAKER_02
A lack of understanding.
2
SPEAKER_02
But I think with the way that the world is shaped right now, people are more scared about asking the wrong thing or saying the wrong thing than actually getting to an understanding.
2
SPEAKER_02
So when you re
2
SPEAKER_02
When you re talking about these issues to people, what is something that you wish people would look at or understand that maybe gets lost in the anger from a lack of understanding?
2
SPEAKER_01
I wish that people would just listen.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think often these conversations get heated.
2
SPEAKER_01
To be clear, if we re speaking about not violent situations, people who are really trying to understand one another in some capacity showing up, like DAX, JVN, if you will, that was more complex, I think, because they were really debating politics and policies, and they were debating children, and there was maybe more research could have been done on DAX s part before having a trans person.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
2
SPEAKER_01
If you re going to have that conversation, be ready to have that conversation.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think for me,
2
SPEAKER_01
I m not a super combative person, and vulnerability is the key to compassion for me, and that s the key to liberation and acceptance and understanding one another.
2
SPEAKER_01
So as you said, it s like you saw this example, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
Well, JBN s been on this show, and I think the difference sometimes is
2
SPEAKER_02
I felt in that conversation when I was talking to myself, it was almost like, I m going to correct you and educate you, which is okay, but it immediately made it harder for me and I think for us to get into the understanding because I felt either
2
SPEAKER_02
insecure asking the question, or I felt like I was gonna say the wrong thing.
2
SPEAKER_02
And it s not trying to offend, it s literally trying to present the information so that people can have a different perspective.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I mean, I commend them for even having that conversation, because I can t imagine what that would have felt like in that moment.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s so complicated to be on the receiving end, and you re literally in the hot seat, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
So it s just like the stakes are raised.
2
SPEAKER_01
But to answer your question, I would say listening.
2
SPEAKER_01
so key.
2
SPEAKER_01
I would say generally, for whatever reason, people want to tips to talk to trans people.
2
SPEAKER_01
People really want to like ask medical questions, which is just so inappropriate.
2
SPEAKER_01
Sure.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like you would never ask cis straight people questions about their body in that way.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like it s just not okay.
2
SPEAKER_01
But I think
2
SPEAKER_01
There s a lot of dehumanization that happens with the trans community.
2
SPEAKER_01
Really, like, slowing down in these conversations and showing up with a willingness and an understanding that, like, you might not be right.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think that...
2
SPEAKER_00
long-form content like this is really helpful because it gives context.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I m here because I know that your audience is not my audience, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
In so many ways.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, they might be.
2
SPEAKER_01
There s definitely overlap.
2
SPEAKER_00
You d be surprised.
2
SPEAKER_01
No, no, no, no.
2
SPEAKER_01
There s definitely overlap, but you also reach a different demographic than I reach in my algorithm, if you will, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
And it s important for me to show up to these spaces because we have a lot.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, we have mutual friends.
2
SPEAKER_01
We could go have dinner after this.
2
SPEAKER_01
We could go on a trip and probably have a fucking great time.
2
SPEAKER_01
But what I m getting at is like there, you know, my cousin was The Bachelorette, for example.
2
SPEAKER_01
Her followers skew in a different direction politically than mine do.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so just by nature of her being on a show that is viewed by a different type of person, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
So I think it s exciting for me to be a trans person coming into this space with people who are like calm and chill and like, you know,
2
SPEAKER_01
open and compassionate and loving and caring as you seem to be because it offers an opportunity for us to have a conversation that s facilitated and then offered to the public so that there can be vulnerability and there can be compassion.
2
SPEAKER_01
There can be a different type of understanding.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, this is why I work in entertainment at the end of the day, because I know firsthand how seeing versions of myself
2
SPEAKER_01
on-screen, off-screen in books.
2
SPEAKER_01
How like access to different types of stories helped me better understand myself and has helped me better understand the world around me.
2
SPEAKER_02
When we moved to Texas, one of the
3
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things we committed to was just sleep better.
3
SPEAKER_01
In LA, we just had a chaotic sleep schedule.
3
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It was all over the place and we just were lethargic, feeling like shit, just not doing well.
3
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So we implemented sleep.
3
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Now we re performing better.
3
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Our bodies have gotten more in shape.
3
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Our companies have gotten stronger.
3
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Our marriage has gotten better.
3
SPEAKER_01
We re able to parent our kids.
3
SPEAKER_01
And one of the tools that we ve used to completely change our sleep is a sleep pack from a company called Momentus.
3
SPEAKER_01
Many of you guys may have remembered when we had Jeff, the founder of Momentus on this show, talking about
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their products.
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What we love about Memento supplements is they are the highest quality supplements on the market.
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They re third party tested, which means you know you can trust everything that s on the label.
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When you re looking for high quality supplements and products and you re not quite sure where to look, look no further.
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They have these incredible sleep packs that come in individual packets that include magnesium L-threonate.
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As you guys know, many people are deficient in magnesium.
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You definitely need this.
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Apigenin and L-theanine.
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This stuff puts you right to sleep and you re going to sleep like a baby all night.
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They have so many other incredible supplements.
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We ve talked about them before.
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Some of our favorites are their collagen peptides.
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their whey protein, which I think is one of the best on the market.
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Who doesn t want more energy, a little appetite suppressant, and focus?
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Let me introduce you to Ketone IQ.
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I actually reached out to the brand and asked if they would send me like a huge case, and they did, and it s good.
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SPEAKER_00
If you want brain fuel that s like clean energy boost without sugar or caffeine, this is perfect.
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So, essentially what it is, is it s like a shot.
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It comes in like a little shot situation.
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SPEAKER_00
I like to take two shots before I work out or when I sit down to record a podcast because I know the kind of energy that I m going to get.
3
SPEAKER_00
I also notice that I don t get that hungry when I m on it.
3
SPEAKER_00
So, for me, it s a great way to just like do like a little fast during the day.
3
SPEAKER_00
Anyways, it s called Ketone IQ.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s going viral all over the Internet.
3
SPEAKER_00
Their brand s name is HBMN, which stands for Health Via Modern Nutrition.
3
SPEAKER_00
And they re not a keto diet product.
3
SPEAKER_00
OK, so you should know that it s a shot.
3
SPEAKER_00
Ketone IQ, they sell out all the time.
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SPEAKER_00
Very, very popular.
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SPEAKER_00
You can save 30% off your first subscription order of KetoneIQ at hvmn.com slash skinny.
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SPEAKER_00
I personally am going to use my own code because I love the energy that it gives me and the clarity that it gives me when it comes to thinking and podcasting.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s hvmn.com slash skinny.
3
SPEAKER_00
I was so tired of my hair shedding.
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SPEAKER_00
It happened especially after I gave birth to Zaza.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I took matters into my own hands and I really feel like I ve rehabilitated my hair.
3
SPEAKER_00
The first thing I did was I started microneedling my scalp.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then recently I ve been using like a high frequency wand on
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SPEAKER_00
like around the hairline and it works really well.
3
SPEAKER_00
I also am all about a good hair serum and some massage.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then lastly, I am supplementing and I am supplementing with Nutrafol.
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SPEAKER_00
I m sure you ve seen Nutrafol everywhere.
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SPEAKER_00
It s so popular.
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People are obsessed with it.
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It is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement.
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And the thing about it and I think why everyone is so into it is because it s clinically shown to improve visible thickness and strength.
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So personally, what I noticed from taking it every single day is that there s no shedding anymore.
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SPEAKER_00
I just also noticed since going brunette and doing all these things that my hair is thicker, healthier, stronger than it ever has been in my life.
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That s Nutrafol.com promo code SKINNYHAIR.
3
SPEAKER_00
What stories and what things did you see when you were little that helped you?
3
SPEAKER_02
None.
3
SPEAKER_02
I m kidding.
3
SPEAKER_02
But genuinely, for trans stuff, none.
3
SPEAKER_02
There was nothing.
3
SPEAKER_00
So when you said you re reading all these crazy books, there was nothing that you found in any of them?
3
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_02
So I started reading Augustine Burroughs and David Sedaris books when I was younger than I probably should have been, for example.
3
SPEAKER_02
Or even watching 13, weirdly, that Evan Rachel Wood movie as a young adult.
3
SPEAKER_01
That movie s heavy.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s heavy, but I felt seen for the first time.
3
SPEAKER_02
That was my euphoria.
3
SPEAKER_02
I was like, right, I m not a total crazy person if I m doing the amount of drugs I m doing and partying in this way.
3
SPEAKER_02
And it s not to condone that or approve that.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s just to say that I m not alone in the struggle.
3
SPEAKER_00
One thing I won t ever understand, and maybe I need to like, maybe I need to be educated on this, I don t understand why anyone cares what someone else does.
3
SPEAKER_02
For instance- By the way, same.
3
SPEAKER_00
I really, that s always, since I was little, I ve always, like when you say that someone made you take your nail polish off, like I looked at a lens through that and I m like,
3
SPEAKER_00
why it doesn t affect anyone of you wearing nail polish.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s you expressing who you are.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like I don t it doesn t affect me if you wear nail polish.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s where it s I kind of I almost would want to interview someone that is like you should like like someone who is like you can t wear nail polish or you have to dress like this.
3
SPEAKER_00
I don t understand why people get so effective.
3
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t affect them.
3
SPEAKER_01
They read a lot of headlines, and they think a lot of things, especially that are happening politically, are going to have a direct effect on their life or their family, and that s where people dig in.
3
SPEAKER_02
We re talking about such a small percentage of the population.
3
SPEAKER_01
Sure.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I guess what we try to do, and thank you for recognizing this and coming in here, is I like the idea, as a content creator,
3
SPEAKER_01
I feel the easiest way to grow faster and build an audience is to pander to an echo chamber and give them the same kind of thing over and over and continue to reinforce the same kind of message.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think a lot of people, left, right, are really good at doing that.
3
SPEAKER_01
They find a cause, they dig in, and they become that person.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think it is much more challenging and builds much greater character to pivot and go different ways and share different perspectives.
3
SPEAKER_01
For example, we will have somebody on that maybe believes something completely this way one week,
3
SPEAKER_01
and the audience will get fired up or half the audience.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then the next week, we ll have somebody that s completely counter and they ll get upset.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m like, listen, the idea is to stretch your mind and have you look at different perspectives so that you can understand a greater worldview.
3
SPEAKER_01
Does that make sense?
3
SPEAKER_02
No.
3
SPEAKER_02
I mean, that s also how I try to meet bigotry as much as possible, which is not... This is, to be clear, not meeting bigotry.
3
SPEAKER_02
But just to
3
SPEAKER_02
go back to the initial question that I think opened this portal of conversation up, if you will, around just like engaging with people that are different than you.
3
SPEAKER_02
I mean, you could really boil it down to that is exposing yourself to different narratives and different ways of living and different lived experiences, right?
3
SPEAKER_02
Because
3
SPEAKER_02
There s so much animosity that comes out of fear and there s so much violence that comes out of fear, fear of the unknown, fear of someone doing something differently with their lives, fear of like a boy wearing nail polish, like fear of so many things.
3
SPEAKER_02
And the only way to kind of work through that is to be willing to show up as either talent or content creator, writer, filmmaker, what have you.
3
SPEAKER_02
or as viewer, consumer.
3
SPEAKER_00
What conversations are you having with trans children or your friends who are trans that you wish that the general population would know?
3
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I m not having conversations, I guess, so directly with trans kids, but I do know some trans kids who are really cool.
3
SPEAKER_02
I think understanding, I think to your point, I think having conversations of just leave people alone.
3
SPEAKER_02
This has nothing to do with you, right?
3
SPEAKER_02
But I think so often,
4
SPEAKER_00
Identities are wrapped up in institutions, they re wrapped up in community, they re wrapped up in God, but your version of God, not mine.
4
SPEAKER_00
I believe in God, it s just probably a different God than Rhonda Santas  God.
4
SPEAKER_00
We have different gods.
4
SPEAKER_00
We don t pray to the same altar, if you will.
4
SPEAKER_00
I try to
4
SPEAKER_00
provide resources to experts, that s kind of my go-to.
4
SPEAKER_00
So if I m in a situation in which a parent of a trans kid or a trans kid, whoever it is, I can go through my DM requests and I can get an overall theme without engaging with people directly because there s just safety issues there.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I can offer different supports if necessary, whether that s Trevor Project, if so dire, or
4
SPEAKER_00
different queer accepting community centers or the Ali Forney Center.
4
SPEAKER_00
I like to give literature to adults especially.
4
SPEAKER_00
So I ll be like, oh, you should read Kate Bornstein s work.
4
SPEAKER_00
Kate uses she, they pronouns, who has had many different versions of a book about gender fluidity as the times have changed and has continued to revise this.
4
SPEAKER_00
There s a book called A Girlhood that is a memoir, a letter from a mother to her transgender daughter who s now grown up in this Ta-Nehisi Coates way.
4
SPEAKER_00
They had to flee Florida because the community turned on them when her kid came out as trans in this liberal blue community.
4
SPEAKER_00
This was years ago prior to everything that we re dealing with now.
4
SPEAKER_00
and they moved to the north to keep their child safe.
4
SPEAKER_00
But this book really is a beautiful telling of the lived experience of this from an ally s perspective.
4
SPEAKER_00
And this is where allyship, I think, is so important and so key.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s like where
4
SPEAKER_00
It s why we have to show up for those who are more disenfranchised than us.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s why we have to learn different ways to advocate for our community members, our friends, our family who are maybe different than ourselves.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I think resourcing yourself with knowledge and different types of podcasts, things like that, is really the best way to expand your mind and also have like foundational
4
SPEAKER_00
key points that you can look at and use when you are perhaps in direct conflict with a transphobic person or a xenophobic person or, you know, an anti-Semitic person, what have you.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like you can do a racist person, like you can equip yourself with a comfortable amount I think of knowledge and challenge yourself.
4
SPEAKER_00
so that you can facilitate conversations or direct people to resources.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s the beauty of the internet too, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
There are just so many different types of people online and sharing stories and content creators that there s an avenue.
4
SPEAKER_00
This is stuff I ve talked to with younger queer family members of mine where I m like,
4
SPEAKER_00
look, this creator s really cool and like they re a non-binary person from Texas who is now a poet and like, you know what I mean?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like there s different ways to steer friends and family in that direction.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I think when I come into contact with the youth, if you will, I mean, statistics are pretty clear.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like Gen Z is very fluid.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like the reality, it s five times more queer than that of millennials.
4
SPEAKER_00
I think two times a millennial is five times out of boomers.
4
SPEAKER_01
So all that to say- Do you think that s really the stat, or do you think that is more people now just being comfortable?
4
SPEAKER_01
What I m saying is, do you think that maybe- No, I don t think there are more queer and trans people.
4
SPEAKER_00
I just think more queer and trans people are out.
4
SPEAKER_02
Are comfortable.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s what I m asking you.
4
SPEAKER_00
Or not even coming out.
4
SPEAKER_00
A younger person in my family came- That s cool.
4
SPEAKER_00
Didn t even come out to me, just started talking about- Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
They re like romantic partner who s non-binary.
4
SPEAKER_02
Coming out isn t like a Broadway show.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s just kind of like, this is what it is.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, these kids don t... That s cool.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s the question is like, has the world and has the people really changed or is it now people are just feeling that they re in an environment where it doesn t have to be as big of an issue as it was maybe in our parents  generation?
4
SPEAKER_02
What there is, is there s less shame.
4
SPEAKER_02
It all stems with shame because society shames people who are different.
4
SPEAKER_02
And right now, I feel like there s this hopefully momentum of less shame.
4
SPEAKER_02
And when there s less shame, people feel more comfortable to be who they are.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I think so.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I think that s where film and television plays a huge role.
4
SPEAKER_00
I think that s where including diversifying casting and fashion and beauty and wellness plays a huge role in offering the world one, a viewpoint into different lived experiences, trans people, queer people, differently abled people.
4
SPEAKER_01
What I think it is this too, like in the sixties with the civil rights movement, I think like a lot of issues around equality got brought to the surface and the country got very charged.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I don t think
4
SPEAKER_01
that people didn t recognize that these were issues for a very long time.
4
SPEAKER_01
It just finally someone brought it to a head and said, hey, this isn t right and we re going to correct this in society.
4
SPEAKER_01
Some people decide to dig in on both sides.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I think what s happening now is this is becoming a louder issue, not because it has not been an issue always, but because people have finally decided to take a stand and say like, this is not okay anymore.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I think that what I m trying to get out here is when you
4
SPEAKER_01
brought up the stats of people, you know, being more out or more open.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s like, maybe it s always this way, but people just feel they now have a community that will rally around them as before.
4
SPEAKER_01
Maybe they felt like if they, you know, brought these issues to light or came out or, you know.
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, I just think, I mean, nobody just think about the difference in like the last few years and in having pronouns and bios, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like that was just like, not a thing that was practiced and now massive corporations
4
SPEAKER_00
have that as part of their DNA, where it s like their email signatures are inclusive of pronouns.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it s not because pronouns haven t always existed.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s just because it s a way to signal like, oh, yeah, we are a place that understands that people like to be identified in different ways and like to use different honorifics.
4
SPEAKER_00
So yeah, I mean, I think it s two part though, because I think the conflict really doesn t stem from queer people, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Which I can speak from that experience.
4
SPEAKER_00
It stems from the smaller population, the smaller sort of like very vocal minority with a lot of power, specifically in this country.
4
SPEAKER_00
going against this evolution of humanity.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it just is that.
4
SPEAKER_00
Because of people like Laverne Cox and Hari Nath, I could understand myself as a trans woman.
4
SPEAKER_00
And because Elliot Page came out so publicly, I felt that I too could step into myself publicly.
4
SPEAKER_00
And we could trace that back, my trans ancestry, to the Marsha P. Johnsons of the world, to ancient times, if you will.
4
SPEAKER_00
You could really keep going.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so media and storytelling and representation changes the landscape and it makes people feel safer.
4
SPEAKER_00
So it doesn t produce more queer and trans people, it just makes people feel safer to own themselves for exactly who they are, not feel that they need to hide or conform or stifle parts of themselves to succeed in this life.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then that challenges.
4
SPEAKER_01
When you decided to pursue acting, coming from Georgia, trying to break into Hollywood per se, where do you even begin?
4
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Because I think the avenues have obviously changed.
4
SPEAKER_01
Did you have a social presence before?
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No.
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SPEAKER_00
No, Instagram didn t come until I was in college.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I had Facebook.
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SPEAKER_00
And Tumblr existed, but I wasn t necessarily a Tumblr kid.
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SPEAKER_00
And I had a MySpace.
4
SPEAKER_00
And you could sort of become an influencer on MySpace.
4
SPEAKER_00
People were able to build these.
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SPEAKER_00
Jeffree Star is an example of someone who s started on MySpace.
4
SPEAKER_02
Mine was Pastel Pink.
4
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I had all the details.
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I had like stars raining down my MySpace.
4
SPEAKER_00
But no, I never found success on social media until after my acting career had kind of taken off.
4
SPEAKER_00
And you know, having business-minded parents and me being an artist, my brain s always kind of been split in two.
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And so when I was in high school and my body was just like starting to really ache and be in pain from classical ballet, I felt like I could go in two different directions and I could go the like,
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try to be in a ballet company route and then probably have to retire at 30 and then figure out what I would do with the rest of my life and also not make a lot of money, frankly.
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That s just the lived reality of being a ballet dancer.
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Or I had this other passion of acting and performing and storytelling and I was directing stuff in high school.
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And I also felt like I was really good at that and had a sort of quality
5
SPEAKER_01
about me, if you will.
5
SPEAKER_01
I had a lot of people in my life be like, oh, you could totally be an actor.
5
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It also became kind of my ticket out of Atlanta because my grades were really bad because I was doing a lot of drugs in high school.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I went to like a film acting camp in LA, New York Film Academy for a summer in high school and it exposed me to Los Angeles.
5
SPEAKER_01
I got like a fake ID and was like going out to Teddy s and shit at like 14, 15, however old I was when I went to that camp.
5
SPEAKER_01
I made a bunch of friends, met Nepo babies for the first time as we ve come to love and know them, and realized how much bigger the world was because I finally got to see behind the television screen for a second and be like, oh, whoa.
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Actors that I grew up watching that I see now on the street are real people.
5
SPEAKER_01
I could start to put those two and two together.
5
SPEAKER_01
I ended up going to a college in Chicago called Columbia College, which is just like, basically anyone can get in.
5
SPEAKER_01
There s barely an application.
5
SPEAKER_01
It was essentially like a community arts college, but it is a four-year program.
5
SPEAKER_01
And what s great about that is it s a space in which you can, not to look, Kanye West went there, dropped out, but college dropout.
5
SPEAKER_01
A lot of people have gone to Columbia College and had found great success.
5
SPEAKER_01
But for me,
5
SPEAKER_01
I went there because I didn t, I just needed to get out of Atlanta and I knew that I wanted to study acting and I started there.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then while I was there, I realized like I actually really wanted to be in New York because that s just where the type of theater I thought I would be doing was.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s just like home base.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I loved New York as a kid.
5
SPEAKER_01
I loved coming here, always wanted to live here.
5
SPEAKER_01
So going to a community college gave me an opportunity to continue being a drug addict and to get really good grades so that no one had to look at my high school.
5
SPEAKER_00
When you say drug addict, was this,
5
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I was like a daily cocaine user.
5
SPEAKER_01
Drink every day.
5
SPEAKER_02
When you first got into drugs, was the drugs to suppress the feelings that you had from being bullied?
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, I don t know.
5
SPEAKER_01
I just love doing drugs.
5
SPEAKER_01
To be honest, like the minute I sipped from like my, you know, sibling s bottle of pop pop or whatever the fuck I got my hands on.
5
SPEAKER_02
Little naughty light.
5
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I was like, yeah, not, yeah, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
We did a lot of beer ponging in my house.
5
SPEAKER_02
Mike s Hard Lemonade.
5
SPEAKER_01
Mike s Hard Lemonade, a lot of icing.
5
SPEAKER_01
We did a lot of Smirnoff icing.
5
SPEAKER_01
Did you remember icing people?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
So we would ice people.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, I grew up like in the South on like a lake and like in Atlanta and like in Alabama and kind of like a country kid in a lot of ways too.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I just loved the feeling of being stoned.
5
SPEAKER_01
I loved the feeling of being drunk.
5
SPEAKER_01
I loved the feeling of both of those things together.
5
SPEAKER_01
I loved blacking out.
5
SPEAKER_01
I loved the feeling of not feeling.
5
SPEAKER_01
right?
5
SPEAKER_01
Which is to say, I don t think it was like a conscious like, oh, I m doing this to run away from my whatever s going on.
5
SPEAKER_01
It just gave me the safest, coziest place to be.
5
SPEAKER_00
And were you still using drugs and alcohol when you started pursuing acting or at that point?
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, so I got to work when I was 21.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I, and was there like an epiphany moment or you just realized my consequences of drinking and drug use were pretty immediate.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like I was suspended from school in seventh grade for drinking at school.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like I was like very, when I say like, like I was driving drunk in high school all the time, like drinking before school, like I was a really, really, like I was genuinely like an alcoholic.
5
SPEAKER_01
At times, yeah, or going from a party to school in high school.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like I was like a very active drinker and drug user.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then when I was a senior in high school, my grades were really bad.
5
SPEAKER_01
I didn t get any, like those consequences became really clear.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I went to the school in Chicago where I was just partying every day.
5
SPEAKER_01
But like, as I was saying, I was able to kind of transfer to a better school that I auditioned for Fordham in New York.
5
SPEAKER_01
and convince them that I was worthy of being accepted.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s a very small acting program.
5
SPEAKER_01
And that was my first time really, I would say, pursuing acting as a craft.
5
SPEAKER_01
It was the first time I really read plays.
5
SPEAKER_01
It was Stanislavski-based program, doing Chekhov and Shakespeare and clown work, and studied in Moscow as my study abroad at Moscow Art Theater School, which is the birthplace of Chekhov and Stanislavski.
5
SPEAKER_01
all these foundational acting techniques that people still use today, was doing plays and writing monologues and started writing screenplays, all the while going out every night until 5 or 6 in the morning.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then at 21, it all came crashing down right around my 21st birthday.
5
SPEAKER_01
And it was clear that I wasn t going to be able to continue at school this way.
5
SPEAKER_01
They weren t really going to have me.
5
SPEAKER_01
I was failing.
5
SPEAKER_01
It would have taken me a decade to graduate at the rate I was going.
5
SPEAKER_01
I would just drop courses right and left.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I was promoting and working at restaurants and promoting at clubs.
5
SPEAKER_01
And when I
5
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But at that point, I did really like still want to be an actor.
5
SPEAKER_01
I was like, I still wanna be an actor.
5
SPEAKER_01
I really wanna do like good, meaningful theater.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I looked at the Fiona Shaw s of the world and the Patrick Stewart s of the world and the Alan Cummings of the world and Patricia Clarkson s and I could just name, you know, Tilda Swinton, whatever, like Viola Davis.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like I looked at all these people who had these amazing, really interesting, cool careers and was fascinated by that and wanted that for myself.
5
SPEAKER_01
But I knew at 21 that I was going to die well before I could have ever made it in any career if I kept
5
SPEAKER_01
Cause at that point I was like, it sounds like the purpose kind of saved you.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like I was, yeah, I mean my last, okay, you got heavy.
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, yeah, it got heavy.
5
SPEAKER_01
It was like not just party.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like I was like drinking and using drugs alone.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like most nights, like I was, it was, it was dark.
5
SPEAKER_01
It was really bleak.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I just, I had like many versions of trying to get sober from like 19 to 21 many like lost relationships, friendships.
5
SPEAKER_01
opportunities.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I literally woke up one morning and was done.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I just like my cousin had just gotten out of a rehab that worked for her.
5
SPEAKER_01
It was the first of many.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, I called her and I went right.
5
SPEAKER_01
I just checked myself into rehab with my dad the next day.
5
SPEAKER_02
And what was rehab like?
5
SPEAKER_01
It was weird because you re like, I was 21 and I felt like I d made the biggest mistake by making I was like, wait, why did I do this?
5
SPEAKER_01
Like, this is terrible.
5
SPEAKER_01
Being sober sucks.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like I ve I m like, where is my youth?
5
SPEAKER_01
Like I.
5
SPEAKER_01
I had a lot of regret by making that call, because I was like, shit, the jig is up.
5
SPEAKER_01
Everyone knows.
5
SPEAKER_01
Fuck.
5
SPEAKER_01
Now I ve told my family, who already knew that this was a problem, but also knew that you can t force an alcoholic or a drug addict into sobriety.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s a self-diagnosed disease at the end of the day.
5
SPEAKER_01
You as the individual need to recognize it within yourself and make those decisions with the help of other people.
5
SPEAKER_01
A lot of people in my family suffer from similar ailments and diseases around alcohol and drugs that we had enough knowledge that you can t force it.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so my parents were really scared for me, but hopeful that I would eventually come to a place of whether it s sobriety or Cali sobriety, whatever you want to like different versions of.
5
SPEAKER_01
What s Cali sobriety?
5
SPEAKER_01
I think that s when you just smoke weed or something.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m just saying there s a lot of different, like now it s like a health thing.
5
SPEAKER_01
So it s like a lot of different, you know, they re like, Oh, I just microdose mushrooms, but I don t drink anymore.
5
SPEAKER_01
Whatever you live.
5
SPEAKER_01
You ve lived in California.
5
SPEAKER_01
I know some of those people.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, me too.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I, I just, but then part of why I love New York is I got out of rehab and I,
5
SPEAKER_01
I kind of struck a deal with my dad to stay sober for a year.
5
SPEAKER_01
I didn t think I could be an actor sober, so I decided to start work.
5
SPEAKER_01
I started working in retail.
5
SPEAKER_01
And like, I was like, I m gonna climb up the fashion pyramid.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I was working at like Balenciaga in like two months and like selling like $700 sneakers in Soho.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then I was working at Dover Street Market, which is, have you ever been to Dover Street Market?
5
SPEAKER_01
It s like the best store in the world.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s like everything from Gucci to Nike, super well curated, owned by the brand Comme des Garcons.
5
SPEAKER_01
Anyway, it s a really cool store.
5
SPEAKER_01
There s Murray Hill here.
5
SPEAKER_01
30th and Lex, I think here.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s an amazing street Dover street market.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s incredible.
5
SPEAKER_01
They have like product Gucci, the row mu mu, but then also Nike Supreme men and women, men and women and like fluid, whatever.
5
SPEAKER_01
They have the best sneakers, the best shoes.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like it is a like hype, hype, hype, really cool, really good bakery, Rose bakery, really good food.
5
SPEAKER_01
There s one in LA, Tokyo, Paris is more of like an art space.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then it originated
6
SPEAKER_03
in London.
6
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Influenced.
6
SPEAKER_02
We just went on a tangent.
6
SPEAKER_03
You re influenced.
6
SPEAKER_03
So I was working at Dover Street Market, and while I was there, early sobriety, I got the creative itch, and I was like, okay, wait, this isn t sustainable.
6
SPEAKER_03
I was helping a lot of famous people.
6
SPEAKER_03
When I was working in those stores, I would help a lot of actors and a lot of influencers at the time.
6
SPEAKER_03
I actually helped David Sedaris, and I cried in the bathroom after I helped him buy, like, Comme des Garcons culottes.
6
SPEAKER_02
Why did you cry?
6
SPEAKER_03
Because I, like, felt like I met a hero of mine, you know?
6
SPEAKER_03
It s like, I ve never met him since, but I just remember that moment in my life where once Frances McDormand bought a bunch of, like, bought Canada Goose jackets for me for her kids when I worked at a store, and I was like, I don t wanna help Frances McDormand buy jackets, I wanna be in movies with Frances, you know what I mean?
6
SPEAKER_03
I just like, which obviously I couldn t say that at the time, and still don t, never met her, but I think
6
SPEAKER_03
I had this longing that went far beyond what a corporate retail job would have provided me.
6
SPEAKER_01
It sounds like you knew your full potential and you were unsettled that you weren t… I was deeply unsettled.
6
SPEAKER_03
I was like, I didn t… And then it became sort of like, okay, well, I m sober.
6
SPEAKER_03
I have this second lease on life.
6
SPEAKER_03
Like, fuck it.
6
SPEAKER_03
So then I entered this phase of like,
6
SPEAKER_03
fuck it, I m going to go back to school.
6
SPEAKER_03
And like, I m going to take an insane amount of credits and I m going to fight to graduate in a year and not two years, which they tried to sort of delay.
6
SPEAKER_03
Anyway, I just, I just was like, I didn t, I went into summer school after.
6
SPEAKER_03
So after I got a year sobriety, I like went straight into summer school, went back to Fordham, like finished my acting degree, tried to go to grad school for acting, didn t get in.
6
SPEAKER_03
And I set really clear goals for myself.
6
SPEAKER_03
when I, at this point, a little over a year of sobriety, and I went back to acting school, I was like, okay, in five years, I m going to land a guest star on a TV show.
6
SPEAKER_03
So by the time I m 27, I will have done at least one episode of television, and I will have done at least one play, and I will not work for free or trade.
6
SPEAKER_03
Like I set these really clear, because I had a teacher, Kenny Leon, who taught my acting class, who s a very successful director in film and theater especially,
6
SPEAKER_03
And he was the one who sort of came in and he would have guests come in, like Spike Lee and Denzel Washington came into our class, like people who like had built beautiful.
6
SPEAKER_03
And he imparted on me the knowledge that you can be an artist and have financial stability.
6
SPEAKER_03
you just have to set boundaries and parameters for yourself.
6
SPEAKER_03
And I took that.
6
SPEAKER_03
And like a sponge, I was like, okay, great.
6
SPEAKER_03
If that s the case, then I can t work for a MetroCard.
6
SPEAKER_03
I ll work at Baz Bagels in the Lower East Side and make some money that way while I audition.
6
SPEAKER_03
And I will take
6
SPEAKER_03
classes with casting directors and I will just like hustle and like only take acting jobs that pay me money and like defining my self-worth that early as an artist was so key.
6
SPEAKER_03
And it s terrifying because I saw my friends doing really cool that I went to college with doing really cool theater and like really experimental things like going to fringe festivals or like you know going to the Guthrie in Minnesota and doing a play there or going to Yale and Juilliard for grad school and I didn t get into grad school.
6
SPEAKER_03
And so I was like
6
SPEAKER_03
okay, well, I m going to just put my like, I made little index cards that I still do this today with goals.
6
SPEAKER_03
And one of them was like guest star on a TV show, get an agent, get a manager, do a play in New York.
6
SPEAKER_03
I didn t really want to do a tour regional thing.
6
SPEAKER_03
I really wanted to do a play at like a reputable theater in New York and become sack and become equity as an actor.
6
SPEAKER_00
I am all about a good classic basic and I recently found this site.
6
SPEAKER_00
It has the chicest cashmere crewneck sweater you ve ever seen and it comes in all different colors.
6
SPEAKER_00
So I went on their site and I got the oatmeal.
6
SPEAKER_00
I also got the heather gray, the black, and then I threw in a green.
6
SPEAKER_00
They even have like a cobalt blue that I have my eye on.
6
SPEAKER_00
Anyway, you can t go wrong.
6
SPEAKER_00
I spent like $200 and I got literally four sweaters.
6
SPEAKER_00
They re so beautiful.
6
SPEAKER_00
And the site that I went to is called Quince.
6
SPEAKER_00
I think that this is such a great place to go for luxury essentials at an affordable price.
6
SPEAKER_00
This sweater is one that you just can t go wrong with.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s something that ll be in your closet forever.
6
SPEAKER_00
You can layer it.
6
SPEAKER_00
So you could do like a flannel over it.
6
SPEAKER_00
You could also do a blazer.
6
SPEAKER_00
And what I think is fun is to do like a white tee and then take the cashmere crewneck sweater over the white tee and have the white tee like popping out at the top.
6
SPEAKER_00
And they only work with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices.
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SPEAKER_00
And all the fabrics are premium.
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And I can tell you after
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ordering these tops and trying them on, they are premium premium.
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Quince is such a go-to place for luxury essentials at an affordable price.
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Get affordable luxury for everyone on your list with Quince.
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Go to quince.com slash skinny for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.
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That s q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash skinny to get free shipping and 365 day returns.
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quince.com slash skinny.
6
SPEAKER_00
You have seen it all over TikTok.
6
SPEAKER_00
It really is a star.
6
SPEAKER_00
The cosmetic case by base.
6
SPEAKER_00
Let me tell you about this cosmetic case.
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SPEAKER_00
They thought of everything.
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SPEAKER_00
There is like a brush holder.
6
SPEAKER_00
There s a place to put your makeup so it doesn t get all dirty.
6
SPEAKER_00
There s like every little compartment you could possibly want in a zip up situation.
6
SPEAKER_00
They come in all different colors.
6
SPEAKER_00
I personally am a fan of the black or the beige, but you can t go wrong with a pop of color.
6
SPEAKER_00
They also have color on there.
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SPEAKER_00
This makes such a great gift.
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It s affordable.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s $68.
6
SPEAKER_00
And it s something that you ll have forever for your cosmetics, your skincare or your makeup.
6
SPEAKER_00
I personally use mine in the car for my skincare.
6
SPEAKER_00
I m always running out the door.
6
SPEAKER_00
And sometimes when I take Zaza to school, I don t have time to do my full skincare routine.
6
SPEAKER_00
So I ll just put everything all organized in my base cosmetic case, and I can just open it and do my spray.
6
SPEAKER_00
I do like my hyaluronic acid.
6
SPEAKER_00
I ll do my vitamins.
6
SPEAKER_00
see my sunscreen.
6
SPEAKER_00
I even have like a beauty blender in there to apply it.
6
SPEAKER_00
Everything is organized and ready to go.
6
SPEAKER_00
I have my castor oil brow situation that I can brush my brows up and I look presentable when I m dropping her off thanks to my cosmetic case.
6
SPEAKER_00
So I would highly recommend you go on there and check this out for a gift.
6
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If you re also looking for a work tote or maybe a carry-on roller, they really have you covered.
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So, I would go on their site.
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I ve used my own code.
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Right now, Bass is offering our listeners 15% off your first purchase.
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You re going to visit BassTravel.com slash Skinny.
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That s B-E-I-S Travel.com slash Skinny.
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Holidays are here.
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Hopefully, we re getting ready to gear up and take a nice break.
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But if you re feeling stressed, if you re feeling sluggish, if you re having trouble sleeping with this never-ending to-do list, we have a solution for you.
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And that is the Just Thrive Probiotic with the stress-busting, mood-uplifting power of Just Calm.
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Lauren and I love Just Thrive products so much.
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We ve had the founder on this show multiple times.
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We re going to come back on
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in the new year to talk all good things gut health.
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Just Right Probiotics and The Calm has been part of our daily routines for months, actually years now.
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It s like a gardener for your gut, safely eliminating bad bacteria and replenishing the good.
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So either skinny90 or code skinny for 15% off.
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Enjoy.
6
SPEAKER_02
You know, it s interesting to hear you say that we read, Lauren and I both read Arnold Schwarzenegger s biography, which is like,
7
SPEAKER_01
different tangent, but he was talking about when he wanted to become an actor and that he was able to kind of be selective and do the things that he really wanted to do because he was working and kind of like figuring out a way to give himself a living besides that.
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And he was saying that he saw a lot of his friends that were pursuing the same career, but they were like,
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either not taking it as seriously or they were taking gigs or doing things that they didn t really want to be doing.
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This is obviously not a pursuit of mind acting, but if you re going into that pursuit, you need to figure out a way to your point to be financially solvent and then also be smart about the things you actually attach yourself to.
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Yeah, you need to be focused.
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My dad would call
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all those opportunities I could have done that didn t really have value except for instant gratification, like shiny things.
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And often my dad still to this day would be like, why are you getting distracted by the shiny things?
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I remember I heard Oprah once say on a podcast a decade ago or whatever it was, talk show, who knows, but just this analogy of a horse race where you re like, horses don t win races by looking at other horses.
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So really early on as I was embarking on a career in the arts, which is to say a career in myself,
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I learned that comparing myself to others is fucking irrelevant because humans are so different.
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So even if I look exactly like somebody else, what we do with a character in the context of this story in relationship to the other actors that are hired.
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is never going to be the same.
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And so once I let go of this idea that there are people who are better than me in this way, no one s better at being the type of actor I am than me because I m the only person who can act in this way.
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It s not just that there are a million other people who could do this job.
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There are actors who are way more talented than me, sure.
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But
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when you find the role that is supposed to be your role or the story that you re supposed to tell, like I m uniquely qualified to do that.
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And I started owning that from like a really, really young age and like just being really not, and not being afraid to fail.
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Right.
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And, and, and having that kind of mindset and setting these like really clear, tangible goals for myself.
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And then within a year, you know, we do this thing called senior showcase where when you re graduating a conservatory program, agents and managers come and they like sign you from showcase, like didn t get a single call, didn t get a single message like crickets for me.
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And I was mortified for like a week.
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And then I was like, okay, well, fuck it.
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Like, how do I figure this out?
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And at some point in, and it s ears open, it s like, I m a fucking bumper sticker today.
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Opportunity meets preparation, guys.
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I don t know if you ve heard that before.
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Opportunity meets preparation.
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I had moved into a shared house with my boyfriend and fiance at the time and a friend from college and he had an agent.
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And this is less than a year after graduating college.
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He was reading the script for 13 Reasons Why.
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And he was auditioning for a role.
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And I was helping him with his audition.
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And he was like, you should try to get an audition.
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I think they re seeing like a wide range of people for this.
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And they were, they were doing like these bigger open calls.
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And I figured out who was casting.
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And I saw that the casting associate was teaching a workshop.
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And I signed up for the workshop.
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And I had
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pretty much no representation.
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I had sort of like, I got like very, very, very entry level agents who like barely picked up the phone, you know, like, okay, well, sure.
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And then I had a manager, but he was like working out of his apartment in like Jersey City.
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And I met him because his girlfriend worked at Equinox and she and I would like hang out together.
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And he had no other client.
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I m genuinely barrel.
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And so I went and took this class.
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And he put on his managerial front character because he hadn t really been a manager before.
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He would hate to hear that.
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I don t talk to him anymore.
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Sorry.
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But that s because he ended up not being a great guy.
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And that s what I did.
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And I walked up to the associate after.
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And
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schmoozed a little, you know, like told him I d heard about this thing.
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And by way of me taking that class and my, my manager at the time calling and saying like, Hey, like Tommy took this class.
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Like I hear you re seeing a bunch of different people.
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And he was like, Oh yeah, we re doing like open calls, whatever.
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Like, you know, Tommy can come in here are the sides.
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That s how I got my first audition, which was for 13 reasons why.
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which is the show I booked.
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So then three months, four or five, six months, however long of auditioning later, I graduated in May of 2015.
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And in June of 2016, I was on set.
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Wow.
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You know what s a common denominator about a lot of successful people who have come on this show?
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They all set very specific goals.
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And I m not talking about like, do a play.
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You were like, do a play in New York City where I m getting paid.
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Right.
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Like it s like it was it was it was so detailed of what it was.
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It wasn t just like being a play.
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It was like a play in New York City.
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Make sure I m getting paid.
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Make sure that it s like this way.
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And you like wrote it out and you look at it.
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And I think that s really a good takeaway for the audience.
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It s like if you want to make something happen, you have to get so precise of what that is.
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Like it can t just be like make money.
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How much money?
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And you didn t just go into acting like I m doing anything just to take any role.
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Yeah, no.
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Yeah, I think I was really clear.
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I was like, I. And I remember that first year, pretty much all of my cards were done, like I got a new I got real agents, I got.
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a real manager, like people who are really, and I say, when I say real, I mean people who are like actually in the industry, not sort of like running rampant and X, Y, Z city, like taking on vulnerable young actors.
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Cause there s a lot of, there are a lot of like scary areas of every industry, Hollywood especially.
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SPEAKER_00
So you have to be really careful when you re approaching work as a young actor and like situations that you have put my, yeah, you can put yourself in really weird situations.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, apart from like the occasional workshop that was really low lift or whatever in that year I just Was like really really really dead set and I and you know what I did is I knew I wanted to go into film and television So when I was a senior of finishing college, I was doing student films to build a reel
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What is on your cards now?
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What are you working on that s coming up?
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SPEAKER_01
Oh, I don t, I can t say.
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SPEAKER_02
Okay, but what are things that have transpired that you re working on now?
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Be careful, Lauren gets anyone to tell her anything.
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SPEAKER_00
I mean, I am obsessed with you.
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Both of you.
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SPEAKER_00
Okay, so what can I tell you?
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Directing a movie.
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Which I just did, starring Alexandra Daddario and Corey Fulcamanez and Cole Sprouse.
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That s amazing.
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Quickly, what s the difference between acting and directing?
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What?
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I know specifically what the difference is.
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What part of my brain?
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It is a different part of my brain.
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It is a different part.
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Oh, for sure.
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Okay.
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But I think being a good actor and having worked as an actor professionally, although not that extensively, helped me be the best director possible.
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Yeah, because you re a practitioner of it.
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You understand the ins and outs.
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And I m an operational person too.
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And I like being more of like a creative visionary and I m a good communicator.
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So for me, just like directing is being good at hiring, being a good judge of people, being a good judge of character, writing a story that needs to be told, having a clear, very, I m a very, very, very prepared person.
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So I have like,
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hundred page plus look book for my department head.
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So for those of you who don t work in the industry, department heads are cinematographers, production designers, costume designers, casting, etc.
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I had very, very clear visions for all of these things and down to screen grabs from stills from other movies as references to palette references, tonal references, actors,
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tiered from like the dream person to like would love to explore this or need to discover this role.
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Here s why.
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Here s why we haven t seen this person before this person.
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We have to find the person to play this role, which is I feel really passionate about because I was sort of plucked from obscurity for a hit Netflix show that we didn t know would be a hit.
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Right.
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But a lot of us, that was our first job, like first big job, especially before first job, period.
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Directing requires a certain amount of vulnerability, but it also requires a certain amount of boundaries.
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SPEAKER_00
So when I am directing, writing, producing, I am really stern about the boundaries I set and how I communicate with people.
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I try to be a cheerleader for people, which I kind of am in my life anyway.
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But especially in that situation, I really try to affirm.
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My goal as a director is to always service the story and service who I m working with.
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That s smart.
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So if you re a production designer, I want you to be the best at what you can do as a production designer.
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I don t want to force you to do what I think you should do.
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So if I did a good job hiring, it means I believe in you and I trust your vision, and I don t need to babysit you every step of the way.
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I just need to continue to guide you and lift you up.
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And that s the same with everyone that I work with.
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And I think as an actor, I m like mush.
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I don t even know.
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When I have actor brain on, I don t look at my phone really.
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I m very vulnerable, very sensitive.
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I allow myself to kind of go into baby brain.
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Are you working on anything with acting right now?
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Yeah, I m, it s been interesting.
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I took a break from acting when I started transitioning because it was pandemic.
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Although I did do like a weird pandemic television show, cause I like needed insurance.
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And.
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It is what it is.
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You know, I needed money, I needed insurance, took the job, job came in, took the job.
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And as I was transitioning those first few years, I was just really, really focused during the pandemic career wise, career wise on producing, writing, like acquiring IP, investing in stories that like I really believed in.
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And so some of those are things that like if they come to fruition, I ll be acting in.
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SPEAKER_00
And you also launched your podcast.
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And I launched my podcast my first time.
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And Curren, which has been sort of like a startup to platform other queer artists, right?
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Because at the end of the day, like that s, as we ve talked about, more diverse groupings of LGBTQ people in the ether, like more understanding, more compassion, more empathy, right?
8
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Can be fostered from that.
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Yeah, I mean, as an actor, I m just starting to pursue new acting opportunities.
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Well, I m really excited to watch everything that you re doing.
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I think that you are a very multifaceted person, and you ve got a lot of layers, and I think your podcast is going to crush it.
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Podcasts was on my index card.
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Probably was on my index card.
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Yeah, I really wanted to have like a talk show format where I got to like tell have specific stories be told to me by people, which is what my podcast is.
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Everyone should go on Amazon and buy some index cards.
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I m going to go buy some.
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Where can everyone find you find what you re working on?
8
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Pimp yourself out.
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Pimp me out.
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Hi, Tommy Dorfman, I think on every social platform I m on.
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So primarily Instagram, but I guess I m also on threads and tech talk.
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or clubcurrent.com and that s where you can find written work.
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I have a book coming out with Harper Collins next fall.
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My movie, I Wish You All the Best is coming out at the end of next year.
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So you can get information about all these things and my podcast is streaming everywhere.
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Spotify, Apple, Amazon.
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It s called My First Time.
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Patrick Stewart is on this week s episode.
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Dylan Mulvaney was last week s episode.
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Julia Fox is coming up.
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I ve got really great people.
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Her book, I just finished it.
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Oh, I know.
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Is she coming on?
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SPEAKER_00
I want her to come on.
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Her book was... So Julia and I have been friends since I was 21.
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I was literally gonna ask you the way that you talked about your experience in New York, paralleled hers.
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I was gonna ask you if you guys were friends.
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Because a lot of the things you talked about were things that she, themes in her book.
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Yeah, and I photographed her for Paper Magazine with Pete Davidson.
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I made them Barbie and Ken in 2019 before Uncut Gems came out.
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SPEAKER_00
That s so cool.
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Cool.
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Yeah, and I remember them being like, oh, I don t know, maybe, maybe not.
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I was like, I m telling you Julia Fox is it, like she s the one.
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She s a vibe.
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SPEAKER_01
They agreed to do it and I was shooting Pete and I sort of infamously removed his penis and made him a Ken doll on the cover of this magazine.
8
SPEAKER_00
How big did you have to crop to remove his penis?
8
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We had him in really tight underwear.
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You can Google it.
8
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We took the body of a Ken doll and superimposed it and put these pieces together in post.
8
SPEAKER_00
Maybe you can shoot our next podcast and you can take Michael s dick off.
8
SPEAKER_01
That would be really funny.
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SPEAKER_01
That would be a plot twist.
8
SPEAKER_00
Do you want to be Dickless?
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SPEAKER_00
Yes!
8
SPEAKER_01
That s actually the transmission, right?
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SPEAKER_01
Like, that s why I m here.
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Thank you, Tommy.
8
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Thank you for doing this.
8
SPEAKER_01
Oh my gosh, thank you so much.
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Two things before you go.
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You can watch us now on YouTube.
8
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So you can go on YouTube, search The Skinny Confidential, and watch our entire episodes on your computer or TV.
8
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Also, you should know, Michael and I are doing a Him and Her newsletter.
8
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So basically it s a him and her tip of the day, five days a week.
8
SPEAKER_00
And the tips are very specific as you can imagine.
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SPEAKER_00
And then we also have a monthly favorites.
8
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So basically we collect all our monthly favorites, everything we ve bought and used and tried and put it in one monthly newsletter for you.
8
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To sign up for that, go to shopskinnyconfidential.com and sign up for the newsletter.
8
SPEAKER_00
Thank you so much for listening and we ll see you next time.