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Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, the best of Mondays, 2023.
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You had the, oh, I m Dax, you re Monica.
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You had the great idea of doing two different best ofs this year.
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Yeah, we re gonna do today s Mondays and Thursday.
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Our normal expert day will be Thursday s best ofs because I wanted to give a little more time to the clips and shorten the amount of them
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Yeah, I like this direction a lot.
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I think it was a good adjustment.
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So you ll just be hearing Mondays right now, and it will be longer, more protracted clips, and we think it ll be more impactful.
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And it goes without saying or should that there are many on here that didn t make the list that belonged on the list.
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It s not this is not an easy.
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I capped it at 10.
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Yes, that was an arbitrary number.
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Well, it felt round.
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Yeah, it s really good.
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I like it.
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Round features.
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when I was going through them and when ultimately looking at this list, what a year.
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Yes.
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Really incredible.
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Yeah.
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Beautiful year.
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We re so lucky.
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Oh my God, it s ridiculous.
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Thanks for listening, guys.
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Thanks for listening and thanks for all the people that are on this list because you re the show.
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That s right.
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Thank you.
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And please enjoy.
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I have gotten fired a couple of times.
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Oh god, me too.
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I want to hear about your being fired.
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This would have been stuff that I had actually auditioned for.
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The To Serve With Love Part 2 story.
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It was something they were doing in Chicago and it was a TV movie and Peter Bogdanovich was directing it.
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Oh wow.
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Sidney Poitier was reprising his role.
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I auditioned for Peter Bogdanovich, and he said, yes, you should do it.
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And so we had a rehearsal, and they set up all these little desks, like a classroom, and then the teacher s desk in front, and all the kids who had been cast were assigned desks, and we were all sitting at our desk, and then this door flies open and locks Sidney Poitier and sits down on his desk, the teacher s desk.
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And Peter says, this is Sidney Poitier.
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And everybody claps.
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Peter said, let s dive right in.
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And we ll start with the scene featuring Michael Shannon.
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And it was the scene that I had actually auditioned with.
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We do it one time.
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And I was a little nervous being in front of all the other kids for the first time and being in front of Sidney and all that.
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But I had done the scene in the audition, so I knew it.
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And I pretty much, I felt like, did it the way I did it in the audition, which Peter seemed to enjoy.
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And then when the scene was finished, Sidney didn t look so happy and Peter walked up to him and they were conferring with one another.
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I was still in my teens.
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Peter walked up and he said, yes, Michael.
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And he gave me some note about how my character, even though he was from the wrong side of the tracks, he was still very charming and a really smart kid or something.
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I don t know.
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And I tried to process what that actually meant or how it would affect my performance in a discernible way.
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And then we did it again.
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And it was basically like a Groundhog Day scenario where the same thing just kept happening over and over again.
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And then finally, Peter says, let s take a break.
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Oh, this is my nightmare.
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Oh my gosh.
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And all the kids are watching all these tapes.
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Yeah.
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Your peers.
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There s a little craft service type table with coffee and tea and snacks on it.
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And Sidney walks over and he s making himself a cup of tea.
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And I realized that I need to do something.
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And I m also just really curious because the man has made no direct approach to me.
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It s all been kind of a third party situation.
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So I m kind of curious to hear from the horse s mouth just exactly what I m doing that s pissing him off so much.
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So I walk up and I say, excuse me, Mr. Poitier, I m terribly sorry to interrupt, but I m really happy to be here and I m trying really hard and I m paraphrasing, you know.
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I can tell you re frustrated.
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I want to do better.
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I just don t understand what s happening right now.
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Babbling on and on.
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And finally I m like, shut up, shut up.
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Just stop talking.
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Just let him say something.
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And so I stopped talking and there s this pause and he stares at me and he says, I don t know what your technique is, but you re weird.
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And he turns around and walks away from me.
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Wait, what?
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That s so rude.
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That s very rough.
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And you re 16 or 17?
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Yeah, I was like, maybe 18, yeah.
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Oh, what do you even do with that?
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You have to retool my genetics.
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Let me just go into the genetic scrambler backstage.
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So then, Peter comes back in and he says, well, I think what we ll do is everyone else can go home.
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except for Michael.
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Michael, stay here.
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By the way, this is a really long story.
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I don t know if you have other- We have nothing.
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We love long stories.
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The longer, the better.
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You got a lot of papers over there.
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No, no, no, no.
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Those are just in case papers.
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I have two.
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It s the safety net I don t even need.
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So there s a kid sitting behind me and he taps me on the shoulder and he says, Hey, I m just an extra.
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I don t even really have any lines.
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Maybe you had a line or two or something.
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He s like, I actually work at a bank, but I was interested in getting into acting and I got this opportunity.
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But anyway.
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What I really wanted to say is that I don t know why they keep making you do this over and over again because I think you re doing a good job and I don t understand what they re saying to you, it doesn t make any sense.
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Thank God for that, banker.
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And he said, I hope I see you tomorrow.
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I hope this guy s listening right now.
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I hope he s... You don t know his name.
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Like, ten dances.
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Hold on.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Who knows where this story goes?
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Okay, okay, okay.
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So everyone leaves.
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Peter says, this is what we re going to do, Mike.
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We re going to go through all of your scenes in the whole movie.
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Just me, you, and Sydney, and I ll read all the other parts.
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So we did that.
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And then Peter said, okay, you can go.
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Can I ask really quickly, are you even able to perform any of the rest at this point?
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Are you not in your head?
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Like, I feel like you re disassociating.
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I was in a bit of a fugue state, probably.
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A fugue state.
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But I mean, if I can lash back here, it wasn t like it was Hamlet or something.
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I mean, it was some crappy TV movie.
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It was a real piece of shit.
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So it wasn t like I had to use all of my powers or something.
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to pull it off.
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So anyway, I walk home and by the time I get home there s a message from my agent and it says, you ve been fired.
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And then years later I was in New York doing Killer Joe off-Broadway.
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Peter Bogdanovich came to see it one night with Sidney Poitier s wife.
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No way!
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And we re in the dressing room afterwards, and the stage manager s like, uh, yeah, Peter Bogdanov s just here, he d really like to meet everybody.
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And there he is with his little cravat on.
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He always wore it.
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He s like, just extraordinary, lovely, blah, blah, blah.
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I m just standing there staring at him like, mm-hmm, I m glad you dug it.
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I m like, do you remember me, man?
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He s like... I feel like sweating.
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Scared.
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Scared for Peter.
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He kind of gets a little ashen and he s like, yes, I remember.
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I m like, that wasn t cool, man.
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Like, what the fuck?
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And he s like, Michael, I don t know.
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I don t know what he was talking about.
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He just didn t like you.
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I don t know why he didn t like you.
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And there s Sidney Poitier s wife standing there.
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And I m like, what are you doing hanging out with Sidney Poitier s wife?
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And then I moved to L.A.
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Killer Joe is what actually got me to move to L.A.
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because when I did Killer Joe, I got a manager and the first thing the manager says is, you gotta go to L.A.
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I said, I don t wanna go to L.A.
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He said, you got to.
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I ll take care of you.
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And that was Lee Daniels.
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The Lee Daniels of Lee Daniels the butler.
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Yes.
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Wait, he was your manager?
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Yes.
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What on earth is happening?
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What is happening?
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Sidney Poitier has weird spidey senses that people are fired on.
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Lee is your assistant slash man.
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What?
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He saw the play and he said, I want to represent you and I want you to go to LA.
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And so I did.
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And then when I was living in LA, I went to Coachella once.
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It was the year that Iggy Pop and the Stooges played.
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Back when Coachella was... I might offend somebody.
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I don t know.
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Be careful.
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You don t want the Coachellas after you.
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The coochies.
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I was standing out there in the mob and the guy walks up and he taps me on the shoulder and I turn it on.
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He says, hey.
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I m like, hi.
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He s like, you don t remember me?
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I m like, no.
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He said, dude, okay, you remember to serve with love part two?
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I m like, yeah.
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He s like, you remember that day where they made you do that scene over and over again and then they sent everybody home?
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You remember the guy who sat
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behind you and tapped you on the shoulder and said you were doing a good job.
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I m like, yeah.
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He s like, that s me.
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No way.
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I m like, oh man, I m sorry.
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It s been a minute.
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Yes.
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Frankly, it was a traumatic experience and I tried to block it out of my memory.
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I m like, well, so what are you doing?
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Have you become an actor?
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Are you following your dreams?
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He s like, yes, I quit the bank and I came to LA and I m going for it.
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I m like, how s it working out?
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And he s like, it s tough, but I think I m making some progress.
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I said, yeah, well, good luck.
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Nice to see you.
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So then a few years later, I m going to meet Oliver Stone, read for World Trade Center.
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And I walk into the lobby and there s a cat sitting there and he looks at me.
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I say, hey, hi.
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He s like, don t you remember me?
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I m like, I m sorry.
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He s like, dude, I saw you at Coachella.
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I was the guy.
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I said nice things to you when you, that day you got fired.
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I m like, all right, sorry, sorry, sorry.
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From his third will be the charm.
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Yeah.
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I m like, hey, you re here.
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Are you gonna meet Mr. Stone?
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He s like, yeah.
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I m like, well, he s doing great.
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You can audition for Oliver Stone.
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He s like, yeah, I am.
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I m doing pretty good.
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I m like, yeah, well, congratulations.
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And it s Michael Peña.
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No!
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No way.
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No way.
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I m like jogging my mind of every Chicago actor I know, and of course Pena.
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It s Pena.
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And he s the same age as us.
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Yeah, you guys are, we re all the same age.
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Do you know I directed a movie with him in it?
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Oh, really?
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Yeah, Chips, he and I. So I ended up coming to know him very, very well.
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I can t believe that was him.
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How sweet of him too to say, of course he said that.
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Yeah.
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Oh my God.
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Did either of you get World Trade Center?
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I can t remember.
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Yeah, it s him and Nicholas Cage.
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And I m in it I play a very stoic individual they get buried in the rubble their first responders and I find them because I m a marine you re a hound dog Wow, what a story that was pain.
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Yeah, I like want to text him now and say I m so proud of him.
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I don t know if he will cooperate
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Well, we did this movie together, 12 Strong.
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We were in Alamogordo, New Mexico, which is where they used to test the bombs.
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It s supposed to be Afghanistan.
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And we were all staying out in this holiday inn in the middle of nowhere.
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And the only place to go at night was Chili s.
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Safe port in a storm, Chili s.
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Yeah.
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Things got a little out of hand at the Chili s sometimes.
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Oh, that s bad.
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By the way, you know, in Bowlingbrook, me, Koechner, and Arnett were blasting the chilies every night.
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That s where we were at every night.
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Same set.
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You can t eat there.
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No, it s... Yes, yes, yes.
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I don t want to rule them out as a... You can t eat at Chili s every night.
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Arnett and I were eating the salad, thinking we were winning.
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Like, oh, yeah, we ll just have a salad.
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We ll just keep it low-cal.
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Oh, yeah.
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I have no idea.
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It was like 3,600 calories.
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Yeah.
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With a little sour cream.
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Yeah.
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3,600 calories?
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I don t know, they re astronomical when they started printing the calories on the menu.
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Okay, I m gonna tell you something, but if I, but if this winds up on the show.
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No, no, no, no, trust me, we would never ever do that.
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We cut anything out.
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No, because it s actually very incriminating of me.
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Okay.
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Actually, you could put it in the show.
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I don t know how he d feel about it.
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Things went a little south with me and Michael.
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Okay.
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Because one night, we were at Chili s.
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And I did this thing.
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I can t believe I m telling you this.
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It s so mean.
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We d had a very long day and I was a little out of sorts.
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I think I might have had like a sunstroke or something.
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I don t know.
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I suddenly got this wild hair up my ass to put a little jalapeno seed on my thumb.
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Uh-huh.
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And Michael was talking, and I was like, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.
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You re gonna make me leave after I tell you this.
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No, no, I won t.
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And I just rubbed the seed on his eyelid.
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Not on his eyeball.
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On the lid, on the lid.
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And he s like, uh-uh.
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And he was like, what did you just do to me?
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And I m like, I m sorry.
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I shouldn t have done that.
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I don t know why.
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I m losing my mind out here in the New Mexico desert.
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And he s like, we re going outside, man.
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We re going outside right now.
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And we went outside, and he was just like, you piece of shit.
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What the fuck s wrong with you?
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I m like, man, I m sorry.
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Yeah, that was... He s like, we re gonna go.
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We re gonna go.
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I m like, no, man.
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I don t wanna fight.
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We gotta go to work tomorrow.
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It ll go away.
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The sting will subside.
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Yeah.
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So that s, that s Hollywood, baby.
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Yeah.
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What could be more fun than working at that Chili s and the first it s exciting.
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There s like some actors from Hollywood are here and now all of a sudden the actors are in the parking lot.
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This is curious.
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This is how they get down.
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Well, he s probably like, what is wrong with you?
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Like I was nice to you and you forgot me two times.
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Now I m famous and you re now hurting me.
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Yes.
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No, he s got justifiable grievances.
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There s no doubt about it.
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Oh my lord.
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I mean, you can put it in the show if you want.
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Okay.
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He would say something and I would say, no, no, no, no, no.
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You told me that on October 11th and you got that script on October 19th.
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And I still remember these dates.
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You know, I had it all in black and white.
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And there was still part of me when he said, I don t know what you re talking about, that my body wouldn t believe that I d seen the proof.
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And it was her saying it and having compassion that was like, oh, this was real.
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I hadn t eaten in a week.
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I couldn t sleep.
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I couldn t eat.
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I had this conversation with this girl and we hung up and I was like, oh, I need a plate of nachos.
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Like my whole body just went, okay, you can grieve.
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You re not crazy.
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You re safe.
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You can grieve.
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You can have nachos and you can have a glass of wine.
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And it was also a moment where I went, oh, I had like a deeper understanding of addiction and the people in my life that deal with addiction because I was like, I just happened to not get the gene.
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That s all that happened because I would have done anything to make that feeling stop.
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And if I happened to have the gene that meant that using anything would have stopped that feeling, I would have fucking done it.
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And I just happened to not have that.
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Totally.
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Totally.
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And it was like my whole body got whatever it needed.
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It at least stopped that total panicked state that I d kind of been in for a year.
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Did the switch
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happen in him, you know, like the light switch, after he got rejected by her?
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That s a really good question.
1
SPEAKER_02
And for somebody who s cataloged so many dates, I m surprised I don t have a perfect answer.
1
SPEAKER_02
Like he was also mourning another relationship.
1
SPEAKER_02
Right, right.
1
SPEAKER_02
A fantasy of I ll be with her and I ll be wonderful.
1
SPEAKER_00
And now I m not.
1
SPEAKER_02
And so then two things are happening.
1
SPEAKER_02
He s living, he s being with you and he s mourning another thing.
1
SPEAKER_00
I just want to say one thing, which I m sure you already think of and thought of, but a trick I use is I imagine that a stranger at an AA meeting is telling my story.
1
SPEAKER_00
Cause I know if you had a friend that had your whole story, you would be like, Oh my God, sweetie, of course that happened.
1
SPEAKER_00
You d fucking dedicated five years of your life to this person.
1
SPEAKER_00
Of course that happened.
1
SPEAKER_02
Well, I think I got so convinced that I was not a credible person or a sane person that I expected that anytime I told any of this to anyone, let alone on a podcast with people that I have a parasocial relationship with, but that s all.
1
SPEAKER_02
that I would be interrogated and not believed and I end up holding all this tension in my hands.
1
SPEAKER_02
And it s because I want to reach for a journal, a computer, or something to go, no, no, no, no, no.
1
SPEAKER_02
It was this day.
1
SPEAKER_02
I ll find it and I can prove it and that I ll be called upon to prove it.
1
SPEAKER_02
And so as you were saying that, I was going, not only would I have compassion for that person, I would believe them.
1
SPEAKER_02
This has actually helped me a lot in terms of understanding why people stay is that I know
1
SPEAKER_02
that no matter how compassionate and wonderful your listener base is, A, I know that there will be people that are like, girl, why didn t you just fucking leave?
1
SPEAKER_00
I don t think so.
1
SPEAKER_00
I really don t think so.
1
SPEAKER_02
I think that s a voice in your... I mean, that might be something that s triggered in them.
1
SPEAKER_02
Maybe it s people who read an article about the podcast or whatever.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s possible.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_02
But equally, I think there will be someone who reads a tweet about the article, about the podcast or whatever, who goes, she s probably fucking lying.
1
SPEAKER_00
I can t wait for you to watch the Stutz thing, and I m sure you re already very familiar with the shadow.
1
SPEAKER_00
That really is the shadow talking to you.
1
SPEAKER_00
That is the voice that we all have that says, don t dare be truthful, honest, and genuine because you ll be rejected and they ll laugh at you and they ll judge you.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don t want to say it s not true.
1
SPEAKER_00
Perhaps that s possible, but I have found out countless times through experimenting on here.
1
SPEAKER_00
It hasn t happened to me.
1
SPEAKER_00
It happens in my head all day, every day.
1
SPEAKER_00
If I go digging, great.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m sure I could find some stuff.
2
SPEAKER_01
But in general, it s not truly a part of my reality.
2
SPEAKER_03
I m wondering as I m going, oh, I feel certain I ve seen really terrible dismissive things.
2
SPEAKER_03
I mean, not about this.
2
SPEAKER_03
I haven t talked about this.
2
SPEAKER_03
But I wonder if I have actually seen those things or if I ve misread or if any time that I do, I catalog it as proof for my shadow self.
2
SPEAKER_04
Sure, it just corroborates whatever you re already feeling.
2
SPEAKER_04
But no, women get the why did you stay question a lot more than I think men get the why did you stay question, if that s even a question that men ever get asked.
2
SPEAKER_04
I don t know.
2
SPEAKER_03
You might be right.
2
SPEAKER_03
But I do think that when men are in abusive relationships, there s even less sympathy for them sometimes.
2
SPEAKER_03
And it might be in a different way, in just more of a, but you have the power, so why didn t you leave?
2
SPEAKER_03
Or like, you re pussy whipped or something like that.
2
SPEAKER_04
Totally, totally, totally.
2
SPEAKER_04
That is really true.
2
SPEAKER_04
I bet also there s an even deeper reluctance to come forward with that if you re a man.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think a lot of men are in similar relationships and the shame that you already feel
2
SPEAKER_01
Not that one s better or worse, it s just, A, dudes aren t supposed to feel anything, period.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then, yes, they re supposed to have the power.
2
SPEAKER_01
And societally, it s emasculating.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s complicated.
2
SPEAKER_01
Again, I m not saying one thing s worse than the other.
2
SPEAKER_01
I will just say one thing that compounded
2
SPEAKER_01
me being molested was, it s a dude.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I have whatever gay stuff that I m afraid of as a kid, on top of the other thing, it s like, well, I can t say this, because everyone will say I m gay.
2
SPEAKER_01
On top of that, I was a victim.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s like, well, now I m gay.
2
SPEAKER_01
I ve done stuff with a man.
2
SPEAKER_01
I don t know, it s just complicated.
2
SPEAKER_04
It s all misocidal.
2
SPEAKER_04
It s for everything.
2
SPEAKER_01
Everyone s in a fucking trap.
2
SPEAKER_04
For girls, it s like, then I m a slut, or then I m, you know, it s always, but just because I feel,
2
SPEAKER_04
obligated to tell you that, yes, some people are going to think that.
2
SPEAKER_04
Who cares?
2
SPEAKER_04
It s just not your responsibility.
2
SPEAKER_03
And if they re invalidating abuse, I have actually had enough examples now that the first thing that I end up going to is, I m so sorry that you endured something that you were told was fine.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I take that back.
2
SPEAKER_01
I ve read a couple of things after this Day 7 episode we released, and a handful of people said, that motherfucker is full of shit.
2
SPEAKER_01
He s a junkie.
2
SPEAKER_01
In truth,
2
SPEAKER_01
I could care less.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like, when I actually said my truth out loud, and there s five people, I actually don t give a fuck.
2
SPEAKER_01
There is something... There is a force field around telling the truth.
2
SPEAKER_03
I don t know to what degree you guys talk about Day 7 more on the show, because I have felt like I haven t heard you guys talk, and I didn t know if that was intentional.
2
SPEAKER_03
Again, just this, like, shining beacon, heart-opening thing of these two people having this conversation around accountability and compassion for each other.
2
SPEAKER_01
and line.
2
SPEAKER_03
But you used the word gaslighting.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I remember thinking this was not gaslighting.
2
SPEAKER_03
I don t know.
2
SPEAKER_03
I wasn t there.
2
SPEAKER_03
I wasn t there.
2
SPEAKER_03
But whatever it was, I was like, OK, great, great, great, great, great.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_03
Because I don t know.
2
SPEAKER_03
I wasn t there.
2
SPEAKER_03
And so there were things that maybe didn t get discussed.
2
SPEAKER_03
But there was part of me where I started to think about, is there another word that we can use for this kind of yearlong chemical grade gaslighting where I literally stopped my life to fix the mental problem that I have?
2
SPEAKER_01
It s a big word.
2
SPEAKER_01
There s some words that are pretty big catchalls and it is a gradient.
2
SPEAKER_03
but that affected you deeply.
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, I mean, when you know something and you re saying, I know this, and they re saying, no, what are you talking about?
2
SPEAKER_03
Did it rise to, I mean, you d be happy to cut this out if it s whatever, but I m very curious if that s okay.
2
SPEAKER_03
Did it rise to the level of there s something wrong with you?
2
SPEAKER_03
With me?
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_03
Oh, in those conversations.
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, like you see this everywhere.
2
SPEAKER_01
I never called you crazy.
2
SPEAKER_04
I think there was implications of that.
2
SPEAKER_04
Like, why are you always asking me this?
2
SPEAKER_04
Because you re in survival mode.
2
SPEAKER_04
You re doing everything you can in that moment to survive the situation.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m not denying at all.
2
SPEAKER_01
No, I lied directly to your face numerous times.
2
SPEAKER_01
I will say, which was in the episode, was my tolerance for that used to be years.
2
SPEAKER_01
I could do that for years.
2
SPEAKER_03
Right.
2
SPEAKER_01
The only thing the long sobriety had bought me was it was pretty insufferable to do it.
2
SPEAKER_01
I hated doing it.
2
SPEAKER_03
Interesting.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s what made everything escalate really quickly.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it was a pretty short timeframe where I couldn t do it.
2
SPEAKER_01
That week leading up to it was like, I was starting to detox.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m now saying I m in a psoriatic arthritis flare up.
2
SPEAKER_01
Now more questions come about that, which now is more lies.
2
SPEAKER_01
So it escalated pretty quickly.
2
SPEAKER_04
I feel kind of put on the spot.
2
SPEAKER_04
So- I know, I m sorry.
2
SPEAKER_04
I just want to say- No, not because of you.
2
SPEAKER_04
Not because of you.
2
SPEAKER_04
Are we good?
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_04
At some point you feel like you know what the answer is you re going to get.
2
SPEAKER_04
So I m not going to ask today, even though I know.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yes, yes.
2
SPEAKER_03
You just used a term that had never occurred to me in the context of my relationship, which is that you re in survival mode, that the person you re interrogating is in survival mode.
2
SPEAKER_03
That is exactly the feeling, was I m threatening your very survival.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_03
And even though there wasn t a physical addiction going on in that relationship, it s actually helped me to think of him as an addict in a way to just go like, oh, there s something that s being touched that feels like it is an actual threat to your survival.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I ve heard not that this means anything because lie detector tests don t actually work.
2
SPEAKER_03
But, you know, if there was such a thing where it actually detected deception, that there s a phase when you re going through addiction that you could
2
SPEAKER_03
easily pass a lie detector test, even though you are clearly cross the threshold into addiction, you can just totally self-deceive.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I think that was definitely like that pre-awareness phase where it was like survival mode.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I think if he d been hooked up to a lie detector test, if such a thing existed, he would have passed.
2
SPEAKER_03
No, you believe it.
2
SPEAKER_03
He believed it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_03
Because he had to, to survive.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_01
The best example I ve ever seen of it is this show where these people have to be up in the Arctic.
2
SPEAKER_01
and they re going to drop off one by one.
2
SPEAKER_01
They are out there for like 100 days living off nothing.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s called a loan.
2
SPEAKER_03
OK, I ve heard of this.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
And you watch people come up with ultimately some story right before they quit that would have left them no option but to quit.
2
SPEAKER_01
And you recognize that their brain, the whole 38 days they re sitting there freezing, is trying to come up with a reason to quit that s not that their will has failed them.
2
SPEAKER_01
Most of them come up with these medical conditions.
2
SPEAKER_01
They re not real.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then they ll, this one, I m having a heart attack.
2
SPEAKER_01
I got to get out of here.
2
SPEAKER_00
I tap out.
2
SPEAKER_00
They come and they give him an EKG.
2
SPEAKER_01
He s not having a heart attack, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
But yeah, the attic brain, it s like a writer s room.
2
SPEAKER_01
where the joke s not good enough, and you keep going, and you keep going, and you keep going, and you finally latch on to one thing.
2
SPEAKER_01
So now if Monica asks me something about that day, it s like, well, she sucks me out of the story.
2
SPEAKER_01
And by me saying yes, now the whole identity s in jeopardy.
2
SPEAKER_01
And now what?
2
SPEAKER_01
If I m saying yes, I m doing this, now it s like, then I m going to admit I ve relapsed.
2
SPEAKER_01
Then I have zero days.
2
SPEAKER_01
Then I got to what?
2
SPEAKER_01
I got to tell people on the show.
2
SPEAKER_01
Seemingly my whole life is somehow at risk because she s the reality that brings me out of my story, which is all my brain does is come up with stories until I believe in one of them.
2
SPEAKER_03
The addict brain is so smart.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s actually really obnoxious that we can t take that brain and put it towards something like wonderful and productive and humanity saving.
2
SPEAKER_03
A lot of bad guys are doing both.
2
SPEAKER_03
That s true.
2
SPEAKER_03
But I was just thinking about my shame brain will do that.
2
SPEAKER_03
I think that s even why I was asking about your journey with yelling at the guys in your yard.
2
SPEAKER_03
How long did your shame brain tell you a story that you had no choice but to yell at them?
2
SPEAKER_03
Because that s what my shame brain will tell me when I do something I don t like.
2
SPEAKER_01
Love.
2
SPEAKER_03
It will work so hard.
2
SPEAKER_03
I ve never been smarter than when I am coming up with a reason why my bad behavior was justified.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s a drug.
2
SPEAKER_01
It puts you in an altered state.
2
SPEAKER_03
Because you re in survival mode.
2
SPEAKER_03
Because it s like if I admit that and my shame takes over, I might as well be fucking dead.
2
SPEAKER_03
I m a bad person.
2
SPEAKER_03
I m a bad person.
2
SPEAKER_03
I m a worm.
2
SPEAKER_01
Verdict s in.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_01
You re a piece of shit.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s official.
2
SPEAKER_01
You re everything you feared you were.
2
SPEAKER_03
You re gonna die alone in a pit.
2
SPEAKER_03
We ve all decided.
2
SPEAKER_03
Everyone voted.
2
SPEAKER_03
I was thinking about you going out and apologizing.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m so sorry.
2
SPEAKER_03
Thank you.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m so sorry.
2
SPEAKER_01
I know that there s residual pain and hurt, and I m so, so sorry that I put you through that.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I m happy to tell you the rest of my life.
2
SPEAKER_01
I hate that I told you I was not when it was clear to you that I was.
2
SPEAKER_01
It breaks my heart.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I m still sorry.
2
SPEAKER_04
I m sorry, too.
2
SPEAKER_01
I was not a good friend.
2
SPEAKER_04
Yes, you are.
2
SPEAKER_04
You are the best.
2
SPEAKER_04
Sucks.
2
SPEAKER_04
That was so beautiful.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, it s a bummer.
2
SPEAKER_04
You don t get the closeness that I m so grateful for without that sometimes.
2
SPEAKER_04
Gotta take the bad with the good.
2
SPEAKER_04
What was the second time he cried?
2
SPEAKER_00
It was soon before he died, and I was alone with him, and I thought, this is my chance.
2
SPEAKER_00
He was sitting in a chair, and I knelt at his feet, and I apologized for not being a better daughter.
2
SPEAKER_00
I apologized for making him worry about me so much.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I told him that I knew that he had done his best as a father, and he started to cry.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I knew that he didn t like to be seen crying.
2
SPEAKER_00
I stayed for a while, and then I left.
2
SPEAKER_04
That s the best gift you could have given him.
2
SPEAKER_04
That s so lovely.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Am I right in that that came directly?
3
SPEAKER_02
after you guys had shot a scene?
3
SPEAKER_00
This was about two, three months after he d won an Oscar.
3
SPEAKER_02
So you guys did On Golden Pond, but he died five months later?
3
SPEAKER_00
No, he died five months after it was released.
3
SPEAKER_00
After it was released.
3
SPEAKER_00
So he had won his Oscar already.
3
SPEAKER_02
Okay, and then you had that moment with him.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_02
Okay, I had a very complicated relationship with my dad.
3
SPEAKER_02
He was an addict as well.
3
SPEAKER_02
They got divorced when I was three.
3
SPEAKER_02
He was around, he wasn t, he was whatever.
3
SPEAKER_02
What did he do?
3
SPEAKER_02
He was a car salesman.
3
SPEAKER_02
That wouldn t shock you, right?
3
SPEAKER_02
You could see me selling cars somewhere in the Midwest.
3
SPEAKER_02
He died of cancer and I had this three-month window, which I m so grateful for, which was, here s your time.
3
SPEAKER_02
If you don t do it now, it s not going to get done.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I did it.
3
SPEAKER_02
And that provided
3
SPEAKER_02
a good deal of relief over the last 10 years since he s died.
3
SPEAKER_02
But I ve now reached a different phase of it, a greedier phase, where it s like, yeah, I did that, and now I really want to be friends with him.
3
SPEAKER_02
It felt like closure, but actually now more than anything, I want that resolution to backtrack, and I want now time with him post-resolution.
3
SPEAKER_02
Do you have that feeling?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_02
Because the beautiful thing you say in Golden Pond, which he wasn t prepared for, is, I wish I was your friend.
3
SPEAKER_00
I want to be your friend.
3
SPEAKER_00
He hated to have anything happen that had not been rehearsed.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so I reached out and I touched him, which he wasn t crazy about either.
3
SPEAKER_00
He wasn t a very tactile person.
3
SPEAKER_00
And no one in the world would notice, but I did.
3
SPEAKER_00
I touched him.
3
SPEAKER_00
He turned away a little bit.
3
SPEAKER_00
I get emotional.
3
SPEAKER_00
And he ducked his head and put his hand here to cover his face.
3
SPEAKER_00
But I saw him tear up.
3
SPEAKER_00
It meant the world.
3
SPEAKER_00
I believe that those feelings that you have of now you want to be his friend, I think that that does something cellular to you.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I think that s known.
3
SPEAKER_00
I think there s a connection.
3
SPEAKER_00
I do.
3
SPEAKER_00
I do.
3
SPEAKER_00
I feel my mother and father very present, especially my dad.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I sort of know that they know that I ve lived longer than they have and that I ve
3
SPEAKER_00
done really well in life.
3
SPEAKER_02
You carried the torch well.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because especially my dad never ever thought I would when I was just a fuck-up.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.
3
SPEAKER_02
Okay, I know why you peed when you did, because we re talking about romance and you re getting nervous.
3
SPEAKER_02
You don t want to acknowledge that your options went through the roof.
3
SPEAKER_02
When that power hits you, in so many ways, it s the fairy tale one s been having since they were 12 years old, that girls would like you.
3
SPEAKER_01
Definitely.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m still not very good at believing that.
3
SPEAKER_03
But you have to be aware of what s happening right now, right?
3
SPEAKER_03
We re like, on Deux Moi, like, go to this bar.
3
SPEAKER_03
Cousin Greg is at this bar.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_02
Tell me about that.
3
SPEAKER_02
I don t know about that.
3
SPEAKER_02
What s Deux Moi?
3
SPEAKER_02
CNBC account?
3
SPEAKER_03
Kind of.
3
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, they ll post, like, this person was here.
3
SPEAKER_03
It s like, kind of gossipy, I guess.
3
SPEAKER_01
He was with a girl, or he was making out with somebody.
3
SPEAKER_03
It s like, shoot your shot.
3
SPEAKER_03
Cousin Greg is there.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh, wow.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, because I own this bar called Ray s.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m a part owner in this bar called Ray s.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh, in real life?
3
SPEAKER_01
In real life.
3
SPEAKER_01
So that was the first bar I was invested in.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so I would go there a pretty good amount.
3
SPEAKER_01
You got to keep them in business.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, exactly.
3
SPEAKER_01
That was in July of 2019.
3
SPEAKER_01
So that was kind of as things were taking off with the show.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I guess it was a place.
3
SPEAKER_01
that I frequented and they knew I could be there.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re so nervous.
3
SPEAKER_01
I know.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m really, I m really toeing the line here.
3
SPEAKER_01
Cause I don t, I just don t know how to.
3
SPEAKER_01
Just tell me your fears.
3
SPEAKER_02
Like what is it you re afraid of that you ll sound like what?
3
SPEAKER_02
A player?
3
SPEAKER_01
I m not a player.
3
SPEAKER_01
I ve seen it so many times where you say a thing and then it gets snatched up and thrown into the internet, Twitter culture and TikTok videos, you know, people who go to race to find me put up TikToks and stuff.
3
SPEAKER_01
So it is nice when I m like, okay, well that girl s looking at me or that girl s looking at me, that girl, you know, gives me her number.
3
SPEAKER_03
Of course it s going to feel good.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I trust.
3
SPEAKER_01
almost no stranger girl that I meet.
3
SPEAKER_01
It definitely has happened since 2019, because I was sort of like, oh cool, like we re at the bar and I meet this girl, or I m somewhere else and I meet a girl, whatever.
3
SPEAKER_01
I want you two to talk right now.
3
SPEAKER_03
Great.
3
SPEAKER_03
Let s do it.
3
SPEAKER_02
you guys have the same thing.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I m always mad at Monica about it, which is, she s like, I m like, that guy s in love with you.
3
SPEAKER_02
And she s like, he likes the show.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I m like, yeah, but you re you on the show.
3
SPEAKER_02
So like, what s the fear?
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, what I wanted to say was that in 2019, I was sort of like, cool, this is fun.
3
SPEAKER_01
We can hook up or we can date.
3
SPEAKER_01
It can be the common route of dating or just hooking up.
3
SPEAKER_02
Let s add, you re 31 at the time in 2019.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yep, that was fun.
3
SPEAKER_01
And yeah, Dumas would see me and things like that, but I didn t really care that much.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s not shameful for me to be with a girl as a single man.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m like, oh God, they saw me with a girl.
3
SPEAKER_01
No.
3
SPEAKER_02
Well, that s the thing I don t think we should succumb to.
3
SPEAKER_02
There is this weird bent right now, which would be like being sexual is somehow predatorial.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I fucking hate that.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s like, no, no.
3
SPEAKER_02
First of all, we look at the statistics and the younger generations are having sex less.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s not a good thing.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s a very bad thing.
3
SPEAKER_02
In exploring all these different power dynamics that needed to be explored, it did put a whole haze over anyone just fucking, which is a lovely activity for single people to have.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yes, or people are fucking.
3
SPEAKER_01
They re out there, they re doing it, but men can t talk about that they did.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s way better for men in general, but for me as a person of some level of fame to just keep my mouth shut, never talk about it because it is just this dance right now.
3
SPEAKER_01
And you say one thing about like, that was cool that that happened.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s like, whoa, you know?
3
SPEAKER_02
This guy s a misogynist.
3
SPEAKER_02
He likes sex with women.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, exactly.
3
SPEAKER_02
What an animal.
3
SPEAKER_02
What a sicko.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, this sick fuck gets his jollies off by having intercourse with women.
3
SPEAKER_02
But can I tell you one thing I ll just add?
3
SPEAKER_02
A lot of it you participate in.
3
SPEAKER_02
I don t know this about you specifically, but
3
SPEAKER_02
What people really sense is they can smell if someone s shameable.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s also part of it.
3
SPEAKER_02
If I sense you re shameable, then we start up the shame machine.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s almost like when it appears someone s trying to keep a secret from all of us that I think is what actually gives it its fuel.
3
SPEAKER_02
Does that make any sense to you?
3
SPEAKER_01
A hundred percent.
3
SPEAKER_01
It does.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think about a version of being myself where I just say exactly what I do, and I say it pridefully, and I m just not there.
3
SPEAKER_01
There is too much at stake to be that guy.
3
SPEAKER_02
To find out.
3
SPEAKER_02
To risk it, exactly.
3
SPEAKER_02
If it would weather well or not.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s it.
3
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, I mean, if there s objectively nothing wrong, it s not like someone s not consenting.
3
SPEAKER_03
I mean, I think that s the fear that people put, is like, oh, he somehow made people have sex with him, and that s not true.
3
SPEAKER_03
The reason they re posting it is so that they can come find you.
3
SPEAKER_02
Well, that s where we got really dicey.
3
SPEAKER_02
They re seeking you out.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yes, yes, yes.
3
SPEAKER_01
They re literally coming to a place to meet me and whatever.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it is weird that I have to sort of not acknowledge that or be aware of it.
3
SPEAKER_01
Or I guess I m pretending to not be.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s very curious.
3
SPEAKER_02
Here s what happened.
3
SPEAKER_02
We conflated some shit.
3
SPEAKER_02
So I think in the Me Too movement, we started looking at power dynamics.
3
SPEAKER_02
Obviously bosses, employees,
3
SPEAKER_02
That s a rough one.
3
SPEAKER_02
That probably does need to be checked pretty regularly.
3
SPEAKER_02
Although I do absolutely think a boss and a subordinate can fall in love.
3
SPEAKER_02
I think if you reverse it and it s a female that s the boss, I don t give a fuck.
3
SPEAKER_02
No one gives a fuck.
3
SPEAKER_01
Definitely bad situations out there, but we go to work, most of us, for 50 hours, 60 hours, 70 hours on a set.
3
SPEAKER_01
14-hour days, 15-hour days sometimes.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s your whole life.
3
SPEAKER_01
Really hard conditions, but you re getting to bond with people and see them do the thing they love.
3
SPEAKER_01
Having a relationship with someone you meet at work makes total sense.
3
SPEAKER_01
Not everybody s at the same level.
3
SPEAKER_02
Right, you gotta pray that you meet someone you like that s exactly on the lateral line you re on.
3
SPEAKER_02
Right.
3
SPEAKER_02
Because if they re above you, then they re in trouble.
3
SPEAKER_02
If they re below you, you re in trouble.
3
SPEAKER_02
That seems a little insane to me.
3
SPEAKER_03
It s nuanced.
3
SPEAKER_03
I mean, I think, yes, all this can happen and it totally makes sense.
3
SPEAKER_03
But the problem is when the superior, when they fall out of love or if the subordinate breaks up or does something, quote, wrong,
3
SPEAKER_03
That can then affect their career because the other person has full control and full power.
3
SPEAKER_03
It s very hard for people to separate their personal lives and their professional ones.
3
SPEAKER_02
I agree, but to me, that s the zone that needs to be policed, not the hooky knob.
3
SPEAKER_03
It s human nature.
3
SPEAKER_02
I m just saying, if you ve had an affair with someone at work and then you guys break up and then you fire the person, that s the issue to me.
3
SPEAKER_02
It wasn t the falling in love.
3
SPEAKER_02
It was the how you then treated the person post being in love.
3
SPEAKER_03
Right, but can we tell someone...
3
SPEAKER_03
to completely compartmentalize.
3
SPEAKER_03
I don t even know if it s possible for that boss, even if they don t fire, if they are cold, if they, I mean, anything normal, like a normal thing that would go down between two people in a relationship, if that s your boss, that makes you really uncomfortable at work every day.
3
SPEAKER_03
That sucks.
3
SPEAKER_02
So I guess you just can t break up.
3
SPEAKER_02
If you re going to hook up at work, our new rule, we just figured it out.
3
SPEAKER_02
You better get married.
4
SPEAKER_01
You gotta stay until the job ends.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s right.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that s right solves everything But at any rate so I think that power dynamic which is totally true and needs to be monitored got applied to anyone in life who has status which I think is bullshit because Someone at the bar that likes you because you have status they don t work for you.
4
Oh
4
SPEAKER_01
You don t have any power over their life.
4
SPEAKER_01
You re not offering them opportunity.
4
SPEAKER_04
No, I agree.
4
SPEAKER_01
But they somehow wanted to shine that light on anyone that just has status, like implying you could only be with someone of lateral or superior status, or you would somehow be predatory.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s the thing that I think got weirdly planted in all this.
4
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, you re right.
4
SPEAKER_01
that I think is complete horseshit.
4
SPEAKER_05
Well, it s also attractive to someone that someone else is successful at what they do.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m attracted to people with high status.
4
SPEAKER_01
Every human being is attracted to people with high status.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
4
SPEAKER_01
We re a social primate.
4
SPEAKER_01
The notion that we re not attracted to status is preposterous.
4
SPEAKER_01
So then what you re saying is, well, you can t explore your attraction because it s based on this status thing.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s not how it works.
4
SPEAKER_05
Yeah, I m so scared of this conversation.
4
SPEAKER_05
I am so scared.
4
SPEAKER_05
Monica, you can say everything and we will agree.
4
SPEAKER_00
No, I m with you.
4
SPEAKER_05
Dax, I know you re saying things that are true too.
4
SPEAKER_05
When some person from the world, not a celebrity, has an experience and has had an experience with me, they talk about it.
4
SPEAKER_05
Of course.
4
SPEAKER_05
And then it s their story.
4
SPEAKER_05
And it s not something they re going to keep secret because, oh yeah, it was just like dating another guy from a dating app or something.
4
SPEAKER_05
I don t need to tell that story to anybody or lots of people.
4
SPEAKER_05
But when they have hooked up with a celebrity, it s a great story for them to share with all.
4
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely.
4
SPEAKER_05
That s part of the reason why I ve had to be increasingly kind of paranoid, because if you have a hookup, and maybe it s weird, or maybe it s awkward.
4
SPEAKER_05
Yeah, as many are.
4
SPEAKER_05
Which is the nature of dating.
4
SPEAKER_04
Exactly.
4
SPEAKER_05
And hooking up is that two people are not always good for each other, and the chemistry is not always there, and they kiss horribly, and they don t know how to touch each other, and one s really sweaty.
4
SPEAKER_05
One s not, they don t care.
4
SPEAKER_05
And one, you know, at some point, one of them doesn t want to be there anymore.
4
SPEAKER_05
And that goes both ways.
4
SPEAKER_05
Remove the fame aspect from it.
4
SPEAKER_05
I m a man attracted to or hoping to date a girl, and we re allowed to fail at it.
4
SPEAKER_05
But when adding the fame back in and we fail at it, now they have a story.
4
SPEAKER_05
And they can say any story, really, because I m not there to be like, actually, she was a bad kisser.
4
SPEAKER_04
Right, right, right, right.
4
SPEAKER_05
Actually, I was really tired that night.
4
SPEAKER_04
And your character is so specific on succession.
4
SPEAKER_04
So there s maybe an inclination for some people to want to know, is he like him or make that connection.
4
SPEAKER_04
And then that would make me paranoid too of like, why are they here?
4
SPEAKER_04
Are they here to see if I m cousin Greg or are they here to hang out with me?
4
SPEAKER_05
Yeah, they sometimes,
4
SPEAKER_05
say, hi, Greg, first.
4
SPEAKER_05
They don t know I m Nick.
4
SPEAKER_05
They don t know there s a person behind it.
4
SPEAKER_05
They ve watched 30 hours of me on TV.
4
SPEAKER_05
They go, hey, Greg.
4
SPEAKER_05
And I have to be like, oh yeah, name s Nick.
4
SPEAKER_05
I mean, those are the ones to just really stay away from.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that s a pretty easy filter.
4
SPEAKER_05
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_05
I guess what s gotten harder about it
4
SPEAKER_05
is you don t want there to be any disappointment.
4
SPEAKER_01
Talk about driving home from set, worrying about whether you said your line correctly.
4
SPEAKER_05
Gosh, that was a weird one, or we had a bad vibe, or whatever.
4
SPEAKER_05
And if you just want to stop talking, it feels like I have to have kind of a breakup.
4
SPEAKER_05
You want to leave them totally good.
4
SPEAKER_05
no matter what extent you had a thing.
4
SPEAKER_05
And so it s just not for me right now.
4
SPEAKER_05
I mean, you re in a different phase.
4
SPEAKER_05
You re a person who like speaks their truth every time you sit down in this chair.
4
SPEAKER_05
I guess I would imagine I ve never even done a long-form podcast.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
This is my first one.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_05
I haven t spoken about the nuance of it, and it s, I don t know.
4
SPEAKER_05
Scares you.
4
SPEAKER_05
Totally.
4
SPEAKER_05
By the way, I m in a relationship now.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh yeah, so am I. Here we go.
4
SPEAKER_05
I ve moved on from this chapter of my life, and hopefully for a long time, because we have a very good thing.
4
you
4
SPEAKER_01
So much of me doesn t wanna bring it up because, not to pat myself on the back, but when it all happened, when the slap happened, I was triggered in a lot, a lot of ways.
4
SPEAKER_01
I actually had to do a couple therapy sessions about that.
4
SPEAKER_01
So here s my baggage.
4
SPEAKER_01
I watched my mom get beat in front of me.
4
SPEAKER_01
What always happened before getting beat was you insult her.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s never happened on my watch.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I don t know his story, but I just know I was there.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was like, I can t say that I m not doing the same, you know?
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
In fact, my therapy session was like, I m not going to try to get you to not be that guy, but can you do it in the parking lot?
4
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I m like, okay, I think I can aspire to doing it in the parking lot.
4
SPEAKER_01
Again, I don t know Will s story.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m projecting.
4
SPEAKER_01
There was such racism immediately.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
If Leonardo DiCaprio smacks fucking Tobey Maguire, we re not calling assault.
4
SPEAKER_01
We re calling embarrassing.
4
SPEAKER_01
I didn t like that.
4
SPEAKER_01
But why I want to bring it up is what I hoped we would get to in Chris s synthesizing of that whole experience.
4
SPEAKER_01
I really didn t get, and I was really bummed, and I love him.
4
SPEAKER_01
I have so much respect for him.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s not what I expected from him.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yours was.
4
SPEAKER_01
When I read your account of it, and I thought you beautifully never made an attempt to tell Will s story or Chris s story.
4
SPEAKER_01
You re just like, here s my experience through it all.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then what fucked me up was just, I m walking out here with him, like no matter what.
4
SPEAKER_02
No matter what.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that s where loyalty is fucking beautiful.
4
SPEAKER_01
And you should hope that on your worst day, when you do your most regrettable thing, that someone grabs your hand and walks home with you.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s so fucking beautiful.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
I was like, I didn t come in there as his wife.
4
SPEAKER_01
But I left.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that s what killed me.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, even you saying like, when he said, keep my wife s name out of your mouth, you re like, I haven t even heard him call me his wife in so long.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s a hard way to learn that lesson.
4
SPEAKER_01
I know.
4
SPEAKER_03
I was like, God damn.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s a heavy price of entry, but what an experience you guys shared.
4
SPEAKER_01
Fuck all the other stuff.
4
SPEAKER_01
You want to talk about having been tested, that loyalty?
4
SPEAKER_03
That was it.
4
SPEAKER_03
I just have to be honest.
4
SPEAKER_03
That was the moment where I was like, this is my guy.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_03
I can t leave his side.
4
SPEAKER_01
He s so lucky.
4
SPEAKER_01
He s so lucky.
4
SPEAKER_01
And you know what was so clear throughout the whole book and him going on Red Table?
4
SPEAKER_01
He too.
4
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, exactly.
4
SPEAKER_01
There won t be a day.
4
SPEAKER_03
There won t be a day.
4
SPEAKER_01
You will die on this planet.
4
SPEAKER_01
There will not have been a day he wasn t there.
4
SPEAKER_03
That s right.
4
SPEAKER_03
And that s what we know.
4
SPEAKER_01
So all the judgment, all the fucking bullshit, you should be so lucky to have that.
4
SPEAKER_03
But that s why I can deal with all the judgment and the bullshit, because you have a real thing.
4
SPEAKER_03
I got a real deal.
4
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, right.
4
SPEAKER_03
But you needed your whole life.
4
SPEAKER_03
You got it.
4
SPEAKER_03
And it s not pretty.
4
SPEAKER_03
No, it s not perfect.
4
SPEAKER_03
You re not going to love this.
4
SPEAKER_03
You re not going to love it.
4
SPEAKER_03
It s not going to look like, you know, your little Ozzy and Harriet.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_03
You know, but guess what?
4
SPEAKER_03
Here we are.
4
SPEAKER_00
We both share the same brain disease.
4
SPEAKER_00
We both have the same kind of semi-tamed wild manic energy.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m always happy to see you because then I realize I m not the only one who looks bugged out half the time.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I think there s just a lot of similarities.
4
SPEAKER_00
But I think more than anything is this power of partnerships.
4
SPEAKER_00
Your whole life is built around these very central, deeply significant partnerships you have.
4
SPEAKER_00
Powerful.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
And they tend to come from things that happened organically and morphed into something else and morphed into something else.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then it s this realization of,
4
SPEAKER_00
All I fucking need is us.
4
SPEAKER_01
Do you think there s something for me there is?
4
SPEAKER_01
I can bond and share with Kristen or in this space with Monica.
4
SPEAKER_01
I have maybe a harder time doing that with men.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like, there s probably been a lot of men that have come through my life that could probably have helped me in many ways that I couldn t either avail myself to, or it would look like cowardice or weakness, whatever it is, I ve been able to accept women s power and allow that to help me in a way I can t with men.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I was in a couples therapy session with Susan night before last, and maybe for the first time ever, I realized about 40 minutes in, I hadn t really said much, and it was going great.
4
SPEAKER_00
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
4
SPEAKER_00
And they were kind of figuring me out.
4
SPEAKER_00
And he was going, you know, I never really put it together.
4
SPEAKER_00
You know, with Robert, he doesn t really do that.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I was kind of like, this is great.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m not starting a fight to show that something needs
5
SPEAKER_00
to come up and be addressed so we can find some homeostasis.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m not trying to state my opinion with righteous indignation.
5
SPEAKER_00
And basically, the good doctor, who s, I think in senior, he s just that blurry voice.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I was curious if that was you on a Zoom with your therapist.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, because he respects himself.
5
SPEAKER_00
He s not, he s not trying to.
5
SPEAKER_02
I wondered if it was your therapist.
5
SPEAKER_00
Me too.
5
SPEAKER_00
Because it mirrored my sessions pretty well.
5
SPEAKER_00
Anyway, Kenyon said, you know, from the outside it looks like you had this series of missteps and then you were in jails and institutions and then you did a superhero movie and your life turned around.
5
SPEAKER_00
He goes, I track that as just a byproduct of you finally got into a relationship with somebody who
5
SPEAKER_00
understood how to meet your needs without coddling you, and how to have separateness within your unity, and how to have definitive black and white boundaries with you.
5
SPEAKER_02
I ve observed this, spending time with you and Susan.
5
SPEAKER_02
When I m around the two of you, I go, these two were really made for each other.
5
SPEAKER_02
Certainly, Robert needs her.
5
SPEAKER_02
She was made for each other.
5
SPEAKER_02
How does she implement boundaries?
5
SPEAKER_02
Can you give an example?
5
SPEAKER_00
Here s my favorite one, I ll say this.
5
SPEAKER_00
When I m in one of my moods, she will not engage.
5
SPEAKER_00
She will not follow me down a rabbit hole.
5
Oh, wow.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it comes off to me as neglect.
5
SPEAKER_00
This was one of the big kind of breakthroughs.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, you d think we d have gotten to this before, but you know, like you hear it and you say it and you feel it and you agree to it and you sign off and you check all the boxes, but you still haven t processed it and integrated it.
5
SPEAKER_00
She is just naturally
5
SPEAKER_00
not prone to enmeshment and dysfunction.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it is stunning.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s like she s staring at the teacups at Disneyland.
5
SPEAKER_00
She s like, yeah, I m not getting on that ride.
5
SPEAKER_00
I ll get nauseous.
5
SPEAKER_00
Why the fuck would I get on that ride with him?
5
SPEAKER_00
Not to assign roles.
5
SPEAKER_00
And again, I just think relationships are everything, particularly if the relationships are based on a deep trust in how consistent we will be with each other.
5
SPEAKER_00
Doesn t mean
5
SPEAKER_00
that we can t fall away a field and be admitted back, but we re not admitted back with the same rules as before.
5
SPEAKER_00
We re constantly updating and integrating this thing because we re hell-bent on improving ourselves via each other.
5
SPEAKER_00
So when you find someone that really can do that.
5
SPEAKER_00
So we also try not to assign roles that she s the sequential thinker and I m the associate of one.
5
SPEAKER_00
Because there are always combinations of those.
5
SPEAKER_00
But generally there are lanes.
5
SPEAKER_00
So it s not uptight.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s just super consistent.
5
SPEAKER_00
Have we started yet?
5
SPEAKER_00
We re about to.
5
SPEAKER_00
I only have three more.
5
SPEAKER_00
I only have three more questions and then we ll start.
5
SPEAKER_00
Speaking of partnerships, I initially started thinking of conceiving letting senior happen kind of as a defense mechanism and an avoidance technique, I realize now.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then at a certain point between Chris Smith and Kevin Ford, and then really Susan had this moment where she goes, you know, you can t make a senior documentary like a senior movie, like The Last Hour for us.
5
SPEAKER_00
This very disjointed, nonlinear kind of fest.
5
SPEAKER_00
She goes, you have to think of this in a three-act structure and you have to start thinking about
5
SPEAKER_00
your closure with your dad, whether it s monitored or not, because otherwise, forget that it won t make sense to anyone who ever watches it, it won t make sense to you.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so that last trip to New York and the fact that Exton, our son, wanted to go, it was almost like I got to do it with a generation of Downies that are untouched by the ugliness of addiction.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so it s almost like I needed to be filmed, monitored and graded doing it.
5
SPEAKER_00
in order to do it.
5
SPEAKER_02
And by the way, so did your dad.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_02
Which is even deeper.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s wild to see how much movies is your dad s life.
5
SPEAKER_02
He couldn t frame anything outside of that.
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, that s what we realized too, was he was only going to talk to us through the language of what film he was doing at that point in his life.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
And because at the end, the film he was doing was the film about his life, he needed to do something else because it made no sense.
5
SPEAKER_00
It wasn t a film he was doing.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, look, you know, it was very Pirandello, play within the play, all that stuff.
5
SPEAKER_00
But the crazy thing is being at the Castro Theater in San Francisco, where he had gone up for one of his films, or premiered, it might have been Greaser s Palace in like, 72.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I realized that that film had screened there and now I m watching a screening of Senior from the back looking at it on the screen with these kind of like set pieces and stuff back there.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I had one of those definitive quantum moments.
5
SPEAKER_00
And sometimes you have these on set, sometimes you have them in life or you have them at transitions of life where you just go, just stand here.
5
SPEAKER_00
If you can understand this,
5
SPEAKER_00
Because this is actually what life is.
5
SPEAKER_00
If you re lucky, you get to actually just stand there for a second and see this thing and you hold space and time and grief.
5
SPEAKER_00
Nuts.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s really beautiful.
5
SPEAKER_01
You gotta understand, I ve never taken drugs.
5
SPEAKER_01
I ve never been drunk in my life.
5
SPEAKER_01
I don t drink, but dude, oh my God.
5
SPEAKER_01
When I opened up this chest of porn and I was like eight, I play the flute and I learned from my uncle who knew how to play the flute.
5
SPEAKER_01
And he s a jazz guy, but he s also a porn guy.
5
SPEAKER_01
And all those guys, he would smoke weed and do all that stuff.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I went in that basement and this is a non-religious household.
5
SPEAKER_01
And remember the Zodiac symbols with all the sexual positions?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
5
SPEAKER_01
It was in a lot of trailers that I did.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I couldn t keep my eyes off the freaking Zodiac thing, because I m like, look at these people having sex on the wall.
5
SPEAKER_02
I want to visit November.
5
SPEAKER_02
That looks fun.
5
SPEAKER_02
Aries looks like a good time.
5
SPEAKER_01
That was a thing in Michigan.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I remember pulling out all this porn.
5
SPEAKER_01
Being very religious, no one talked to me about sex.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
5
SPEAKER_01
No one.
5
SPEAKER_01
My father, I ve never to this day ever had a conversation about sex with him.
5
SPEAKER_01
My mother, anytime it came up, she was like, you trying to have sex?
5
SPEAKER_01
I was like, no, no, no, not at all.
5
SPEAKER_01
I don t want sex.
5
SPEAKER_00
It was a bad thing.
5
SPEAKER_00
It was supposed to be horrible.
5
SPEAKER_01
But all of a sudden, when I opened up those mags, I was like.
5
SPEAKER_01
I forgot all the stress, all the problems, everything.
5
SPEAKER_01
I went into another world and I was like, that s so beautiful.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s so amazing.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I didn t even know what it was.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like, I didn t even know what sex was.
5
SPEAKER_02
You re not even trying to jerk off or anything.
5
SPEAKER_01
No, because I don t know how to.
5
SPEAKER_01
I don t know what this is, but I know it s- It s just a great distraction from the other racket.
5
SPEAKER_01
Oh, that s what everyone s talking about.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I was hooked.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s funny, because you mentioned Highway 23.
5
SPEAKER_01
Oh, yeah, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
I remember going from Flint on 23.
5
SPEAKER_01
There was a truck stop.
5
SPEAKER_01
They had these little X-rated places.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, coin operated.
5
SPEAKER_01
The little bookstores off the highway.
5
SPEAKER_01
Oh, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I remembered to get away from Flint.
5
SPEAKER_01
I would be like, oh, I m going to go work out.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then I would drive.
5
SPEAKER_01
And they were shacks.
5
SPEAKER_01
I can see all of them.
5
SPEAKER_01
Adult sign.
5
SPEAKER_01
And you go in there and it was the truckers.
5
SPEAKER_01
The best of the best are in there.
5
SPEAKER_01
Oh, my God.
5
SPEAKER_01
The workers would look at me like, what s that story?
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, like, who is this black dude?
5
SPEAKER_01
I was just going in and looking at porn.
5
SPEAKER_01
And it was a secret.
5
SPEAKER_01
I would die.
5
SPEAKER_01
before anybody knew.
5
SPEAKER_01
I would lie straight out, but that also started guilt.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I was walking around a human pile of guilt.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so my wife would be like, so where were you?
5
SPEAKER_01
What do you mean?
5
SPEAKER_01
Why are you always checking where I am?
5
SPEAKER_01
I mean, what, are you scared?
5
SPEAKER_01
No, no.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I d start an argument so she wouldn t ask more questions.
5
SPEAKER_01
Poor woman, she just, whoa, what s the deal?
5
SPEAKER_01
I m trying to check in with you.
5
SPEAKER_01
It was horrible.
5
SPEAKER_01
My kids, I would be angry at them for getting in the way.
5
SPEAKER_01
And listen, it was magazines.
5
SPEAKER_01
Then it was on the cable box.
5
SPEAKER_01
I figured out how, as a kid, I had porn in my house at high school because I would take the channel and move it in between and it would come in clear.
5
SPEAKER_01
Escapade channel.
5
SPEAKER_02
WKBD, maybe?
5
SPEAKER_02
Yes!
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, UHF 50 at 8 o clock at night.
5
SPEAKER_02
It would be all wavy, but that s good enough for me.
5
SPEAKER_01
But it s nothing.
5
SPEAKER_01
They had subject matters that were like, kid stuff.
5
SPEAKER_01
Cinderella, naked.
5
SPEAKER_01
Snow White, naked.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, always fairy tales.
5
SPEAKER_01
Look how subtle this stuff was and that got into my brain.
5
SPEAKER_02
You know, what s interesting is we met in Austin, greatest place ever.
5
SPEAKER_02
You and I are on the exact same ride because we ve both just popped.
5
SPEAKER_02
You and I had an enthusiasm for what was happening that I wish you could bottle.
5
SPEAKER_02
But there were a couple of things that I was like,
5
SPEAKER_02
What s Terry wrestling with?
5
SPEAKER_02
Cause you were reading a certain book.
5
SPEAKER_02
I saw you were reading and it was kind of like maybe on how to repair a marriage or how to be a good husband.
5
SPEAKER_02
And I was like, Oh, I wonder what s I was like, I see you at sea.
5
SPEAKER_02
I had gotten sober for that.
5
SPEAKER_02
Well, let me tell you this.
5
SPEAKER_02
I went to the table read supposed to be sober.
5
SPEAKER_02
Then went out and did coke.
5
SPEAKER_02
I had been trying to gain all that weight to play Frito rip lines for three days, lost like 14 pounds right before we started.
5
SPEAKER_02
I did stay sober the whole movie, but I m like in the midst of trying to wrestle that
6
SPEAKER_00
to the ground.
6
SPEAKER_00
And then I see you reading this book and I m like, okay, I think maybe we re both kind of struggling a little bit.
6
SPEAKER_04
Well, a lot of time in hotels alone, I would be on the porn channels and then I would feel super guilty and then I would read a bunch of self-help.
6
SPEAKER_04
Okay, let me get back to even here because I felt bad about myself all the time.
6
SPEAKER_00
I am a failure in my head.
6
SPEAKER_00
For both of us, probably.
6
SPEAKER_00
I m just regularly checking in with how my mom would feel about all this.
6
SPEAKER_00
Oh, my mom saw this whole thing.
6
SPEAKER_04
My whole thing was I didn t mess up with another one.
6
SPEAKER_04
So I would justify it.
6
SPEAKER_04
I d be like, oh, well, you know, that s what men do.
6
SPEAKER_04
I was told that, man, you can t be addicted to porn, man.
6
SPEAKER_04
It s just natural.
6
SPEAKER_04
It s just who you are.
6
SPEAKER_04
It s no big deal.
6
SPEAKER_04
Your wife s got to understand that, that you re just a man.
6
SPEAKER_04
Now, if you agree together to go do something and watch something or whatever, that s fine.
6
SPEAKER_04
But if I got to keep it a secret,
6
SPEAKER_00
Well, and by the way, when I heard you talking about it and knowing that you would go from 10 a.m.
6
SPEAKER_00
to 11 p.m.
6
SPEAKER_00
Crazy.
6
SPEAKER_00
When I just told you the 23 highway story, what are you doing out here?
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_04
Like to go that far?
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_04
Where are you going?
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
The whole ride home, you re in a shame spiral.
6
SPEAKER_04
Oh, in a shame spiral on the ride home.
6
SPEAKER_00
What am I gonna say?
6
SPEAKER_00
Early in sobriety, I found it hard to transition.
6
SPEAKER_00
I got really good at
6
SPEAKER_00
this extreme on both ends, I fucking disappear for three days, I come out of it, I m fucked, I m behind, I have a test, I have a term paper, I have a sketch, now the catch up.
6
SPEAKER_00
And now I m a superhuman, because I m running on shame.
6
SPEAKER_00
If I drop the ball in these next four days, it proves that what I m doing has to change.
6
SPEAKER_00
So this weird energy source from it.
6
SPEAKER_00
That s how I became an overachiever.
6
SPEAKER_04
That s how you get to the NFL.
6
SPEAKER_04
Because that energy, it s like a bullet.
6
SPEAKER_04
It s for your life.
6
SPEAKER_04
Oh my God, I got goosebumps.
6
SPEAKER_04
You know, it s funny because I heard underachievement and overachievement is almost the same thing.
6
SPEAKER_04
Underachievement makes you live under a bridge, but overachievement, you live under a bridge you own.
6
SPEAKER_03
Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.
6
SPEAKER_00
Can you tell us the new information?
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, but if you haven t read the book, you should stop listening now, spoiler alert.
6
SPEAKER_02
Oh, you think it unravels if we know this?
6
SPEAKER_02
No, but if you don t wanna know, I think the book is still readable.
6
SPEAKER_00
Okay, okay, so this is great.
6
SPEAKER_00
So for the next, we re gonna put 30, well, no, then we re gonna talk about it.
6
SPEAKER_00
Well, yeah, tell Monica.
6
SPEAKER_01
I think it will make people wanna read it more, to be honest, to get more detail and more.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, my parents sat me down a few years ago and told me that my dad is not my biological father, that I was born from a sperm donor.
6
SPEAKER_02
Whoa.
6
SPEAKER_02
Wow.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
6
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
6
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
6
SPEAKER_00
Can I be dead honest with you?
6
SPEAKER_00
Cause I refuse to lie to you.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
The book is seven hours and 48 minutes and I m six hours through.
6
SPEAKER_00
So I didn t know that.
6
SPEAKER_01
Also, this is very relevant to a lot of stuff we talk about on here.
6
SPEAKER_01
And we had a show called race to 35 where I froze my eggs.
6
SPEAKER_01
We talked to a lot.
6
SPEAKER_01
of people in this situation.
6
SPEAKER_02
Whoa.
6
SPEAKER_02
Now, it s so common.
6
SPEAKER_02
Our kids, half of their friends are sperm donor, egg donor, surrogate, adopted.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
6
SPEAKER_00
AI even, some have some fully functional robots in the class.
6
SPEAKER_02
But my parents were like,
6
SPEAKER_02
Renegades.
6
SPEAKER_02
You know, this was 76.
6
SPEAKER_02
There were no sperm banks.
6
SPEAKER_02
They had tried and tried and tried.
6
SPEAKER_02
I usually thought it was my mom s issue.
6
SPEAKER_02
And then when my dad became part of the process, they said, OK, now that we ve seen what s happening, you have two choices.
6
SPEAKER_02
You can either adopt or do this new thing that s very experimental and kind of secretive.
6
SPEAKER_02
But we ll try it if you re interested.
6
SPEAKER_02
And so my parents took a leap.
6
SPEAKER_00
They got to screen the app?
6
SPEAKER_00
No, there was nothing to screen.
6
SPEAKER_02
There were no applications.
6
SPEAKER_02
There was no nothing.
6
SPEAKER_00
Did they at least know the ethnicity?
6
SPEAKER_00
They could say, we want a black parent.
6
SPEAKER_02
What my mother said was, we just want him to be black and we want him to be healthy.
6
SPEAKER_00
Okay, great.
6
SPEAKER_00
That was it.
6
SPEAKER_02
But also, what did they know about healthy?
6
SPEAKER_02
There was no DNA testing there.
6
SPEAKER_00
They should have thrown Parallel Parker in there.
6
SPEAKER_00
Like good parallel park or healthy.
6
SPEAKER_02
Ivy League education, something.
6
SPEAKER_00
No, no, no, no.
6
SPEAKER_00
Something way more practical.
6
SPEAKER_00
Now you can do all of that.
6
SPEAKER_00
Now you can, but back then.
6
SPEAKER_00
But you lived in Brooklyn.
6
SPEAKER_00
Parallel parking.
6
SPEAKER_00
Bronx.
6
SPEAKER_00
I m sorry.
6
SPEAKER_00
I m sorry.
6
SPEAKER_00
Bronx.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Parallel parking was tantamount to breathing oxygen.
6
SPEAKER_00
I mean, it would have been a skill that could have saved years.
6
SPEAKER_02
And I m not great at it.
6
SPEAKER_02
Neither am I.
6
SPEAKER_02
That was the big mistake.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_02
Wow.
6
SPEAKER_02
So my parents told me this thing.
6
SPEAKER_02
It was a family secret that completely changed my sense of who I was and who they were to me.
6
SPEAKER_02
And so a lot of me writing the book was about me trying to make sense of that.
6
SPEAKER_00
And answered this nagging question you had had since you were very young, which is you felt like there was some distance, right?
6
SPEAKER_02
Some weird emotional distance between my parents and I.
6
SPEAKER_02
We were actually doing an interview together for the book, and somebody said to my parents, like, what s your advice if a family is trying to work through family secrets?
6
SPEAKER_02
And, you know, what would you say?
6
SPEAKER_02
And my mom was like, you know, I would say it s really important to talk to somebody, whether it s a pastor or a therapist or a good friend, to talk to somebody you trust.
6
SPEAKER_02
And therapy is really important.
6
SPEAKER_02
My dad was like, I disagree.
6
SPEAKER_02
best therapists are bartenders.
6
SPEAKER_02
They hear your stories, but you don t ever have to see them again if you don t want to.
6
SPEAKER_02
And I was like, but Ted, where s the healing in that, right?
6
SPEAKER_02
Like the family healing, where s the reward?
6
SPEAKER_02
And he was like, I ll tell you the reward when the bartender is like next round on me.
6
SPEAKER_00
Like you hit him with such a breakthrough.
6
SPEAKER_02
Oh, my God.
6
SPEAKER_03
It s kind of true.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s great.
6
SPEAKER_02
And that s I think a lot of what for me has been kind of the result of this book and this process really with my family of this secret being told and us working through it together and going to family therapy is I think that would have in the past devastated me.
6
SPEAKER_02
I would have been like embarrassed and ashamed and would have been angry.
6
SPEAKER_02
And now I just see the magic in who he is.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_02
And I don t want to change him.
6
SPEAKER_02
I just want to love him.
6
SPEAKER_00
Well, look, you know what s so funny is those kind of things, yes, all of our parents are extensions of our own identity and ego.
6
SPEAKER_00
And when they visit set, it s always nerve wracking.
6
SPEAKER_00
But it s just universal and it s kind of sweet.
6
SPEAKER_00
But what s funny is you could brussel up against that he s being uncouth or lowbrow or something.
6
SPEAKER_00
What you re aspiring to in the book is knowing yourself, is to be authentic to yourself, is to be fully integrated with who you are.
6
SPEAKER_00
That s right.
6
SPEAKER_00
And this motherfucker is just doing it, right?
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, he is who he is.
6
SPEAKER_02
In some ways, I had to deal with the betrayal of my mother differently than my father, because in my opinion, my mom actually kept a secret from me.
6
SPEAKER_02
But my dad truly bought into this alternate reality that I was his and he was mine, and there was no secret for him.
6
SPEAKER_02
I didn t really understand denial till being in this process with him, but it s so beautiful.
6
SPEAKER_02
It was just like that thing got locked in a section, I don t know, out of his brain, out in the world.
6
SPEAKER_02
And there was no secret to keep from me because it just didn t happen.
6
SPEAKER_02
He just placed that somewhere.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_02
When I sat with my parents and I said, I just spoke to the doctor.
6
SPEAKER_02
He said that there s a .0000001% chance that we are biologically related.
6
SPEAKER_02
He s like, there s a chance.
6
SPEAKER_02
Like that s his- Last one millionth bull.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yes, that is his truth, you know?
6
SPEAKER_00
I would imagine if I were him, I see the motivation, which is, I meet you, I fall in love with you, I love caring for you and being in your life, and I can feel how much you love me.
6
SPEAKER_00
And the scariest thing in the world would be that you would find out I m not your real dad and you wouldn t love me as much as you do.
6
SPEAKER_00
That s a powerful motivation.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s terrifying.
6
SPEAKER_02
I know that their choice, particularly because it was 77, it wasn t the world we live in today where everybody s freezing eggs and going through catalogs of donor sperm.
6
SPEAKER_02
They were renegades.
6
SPEAKER_02
They were so courageous and so innovative and took this risk.
6
SPEAKER_02
And I know that their decision to not tell me was not meant to hurt me.
6
SPEAKER_02
It was to try to protect me.
6
SPEAKER_00
They made a call and it was the wrong one, maybe.
6
SPEAKER_00
Or maybe it was the right one, I don t know.
6
SPEAKER_02
I think it was what it was.
6
SPEAKER_02
You know, back then the doctor would say like, you have this sperm and then go home and have sex.
6
SPEAKER_02
And then there s plausible deniability and nobody thought there would ever be DNA tests.
6
SPEAKER_02
So for him, he really was like, that kid is mine.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
6
SPEAKER_00
Lovely.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
So everyone s trying to foster this idea.
6
SPEAKER_00
Everybody s doing their best.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_02
And I think for her, it was like, why tell her, why stress her out?
6
SPEAKER_02
And then she says, then when I was in my twenties, she was going to tell me, but I had this crazy eating disorder.
6
SPEAKER_02
And she was like, I m not going to tell her now.
6
SPEAKER_02
She s crazy enough.
6
SPEAKER_02
There was never a right time to tell me.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s really complicated.
6
SPEAKER_00
Look, you are who you are and we love who you are and you like who you are and your children love who you are.
6
SPEAKER_00
That s very kind.
6
SPEAKER_00
I can relate.
6
SPEAKER_00
I wouldn t want to erase any of my trauma.
6
SPEAKER_02
No, it s the journey.
6
SPEAKER_02
But secrets are palpable.
6
SPEAKER_02
You feel them.
6
SPEAKER_02
We re as sick as our secrets.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_02
You feel them even if you don t know what they are.
6
SPEAKER_02
There s that sense of not feeling safe, feeling unmoored.
6
SPEAKER_02
I knew that I wasn t getting the real.
6
SPEAKER_02
I didn t trust the environment that I was raised in.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I m sure had a very hard time, probably still have a hard time trusting anyone.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_02
But the gift of them being forced, really, into telling me is that it has, I think, given me back a sense of trusting myself.
6
SPEAKER_02
I feel like in these years, I ve been able to mend that pathway with my own intuition.
6
SPEAKER_02
To say like, I fucking knew.
6
SPEAKER_02
I was right.
6
SPEAKER_02
I m not crazy.
7
SPEAKER_02
It can reconfirm the trust with yourself, which is great.
7
SPEAKER_02
Huge.
7
SPEAKER_02
And that is, to me, the most important one.
7
SPEAKER_02
That s the huge gift of what they ve given me, is this ability to trust myself, to know the truth of myself.
7
SPEAKER_03
Whenever anyone asks me what my favorite job was, I always say Parenthood.
7
SPEAKER_02
Oh, really?
7
SPEAKER_02
Oh, yeah.
7
SPEAKER_02
For what reasons?
7
SPEAKER_03
It was the warmest reception.
7
SPEAKER_02
Well, we were all huge fans.
7
SPEAKER_03
There were signs in the hair and makeup trailer, welcome to Parenthood, Lila Garrett.
7
SPEAKER_03
I just was received so warmly and lovingly and I just felt so at home so quickly.
7
SPEAKER_03
And it s also where I found confidence because one of the directors, I ll never forget, when I would get notes, I used to respond with, oh, I m so sorry.
7
SPEAKER_03
OK, I m sorry.
7
SPEAKER_03
And I remember he pulled me aside one day and he was like, when I give you a note, it s not because you did anything wrong.
7
SPEAKER_03
You have nothing to be sorry about.
7
SPEAKER_03
I m telling you because I know that you can do what I m asking you to do.
7
SPEAKER_03
And you belong here.
7
SPEAKER_03
You re here because you re good.
7
SPEAKER_02
Was that Larry Trailing?
7
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Yeah.
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Oh, God.
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I m gonna cry now.
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And I cried.
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He looked at me and was like, you re good, Minka.
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He is the most beautiful person.
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And I just was like, I am?
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I never felt good.
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I never felt worthy.
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I never felt like I belonged here.
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I just felt like such an imposter.
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From then on, I learned to go, yeah, you got it.
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Let s try that.
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As opposed to, I m so sorry.
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Yeah, it s so subtle, but it s so deep.
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The layers of unworthiness, I m still shedding.
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Will you tell Monica the Bag Lady sketch?
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Sure.
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My mom really loved musical theater and musicals, in particular, West Side Story.
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She wanted to be an actress, and it didn t really work out.
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So she would choreograph her own sort of dance numbers sometimes with girls to West Side Story.
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Yeah.
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And sometimes she would have her own sketches.
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So one of them, the Bag Lady sketch, she would burst into the club dressed in rags and just start making a bunch of ruckus.
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Knocking shit over.
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Drinking out of people s drinks.
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Take a sip, throwing it.
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Sizing up, someone giving a lap dance.
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You re cute.
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I can do this.
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And everyone being like, what is going on?
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Like a comedy routine.
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Yeah, completely.
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But people there were actually calling for security to remove the lady.
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Well, yeah, the patrons would be very confused.
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Meanwhile, of course, the DJ and the girls all know it s Mo.
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And then eventually she d be like, let me up there.
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I can do this.
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They d be like, all right, let s give her.
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And then, you know, it d be like the ba-da-da-da-da.
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And then eventually once enough layers have come off and you see this gorgeous 5 11 blonde bombshell start moving a little bit more sexy.
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Less unhoused, more sexy.
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She was playing with character.
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I see a lot of nudity on the streets, to be honest.
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Me too.
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I see all kinds of nudity.
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It s not always my favorite kind.
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But of course, at that point, then little me was taken back into the dressing room so mom could finish her show.
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But by protective coworkers, not necessarily that your mother figured out how perfectly to shield that part of it,
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Maybe my mom was like, bring her back before I become totally naked and gyrating in someone s face.
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Yeah.
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But then Minka falls asleep inside the strip club.
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And then when she wakes up, she has no clue where she s at.
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She s on a couch somewhere.
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Oh boy.
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Which is kind of regular, right?
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Yeah.
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And then she tries to wake her mother up to take her to school.
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She s a little girl who knows she needs to go to school.
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Wants to go to school.
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It s the only place that feels normal and safe and fun and free.
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There s good food.
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There s predictable adults.
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Those teachers act pretty much the same all day.
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What a mystery.
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So nice.
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What planet are they from?
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I want to go there.
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So were you like a super good student because of that?
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Yes, I really was until I got to high school because I ended up going to high school in a place where it wasn t cool to be a super good student.
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Right.
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I wanted to fit in with the cool girls.
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I didn t have the confidence to not need that.
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Same.
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I get it.
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There s a line in there early on, let me just say you wake up in this apartment and she can t get her mom to wake up.
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And then the dude who the moms slept with that night has the decency to take you in a cab to school.
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Total stranger, yours was strangers all the time.
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But you have a line that says, I was an observant child noting every shift in her, an amateur meteorologist trying to get a bead on the change from high pressure to low.
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You re living with an addict who s either at a drug-fueled 11, enthusiastic, or coming down or dealing with the wreckage of.
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There s really probably no zone in between.
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High highs and low lows.
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Yes.
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As high as you go is as low as you go.
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Jekyll and Hyde.
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Yes, learning all of these little spidey senses, as I call them.
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Man, do you get good at predicting behavior, don t you?
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way too good.
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You become hypervigilant as an adult, always looking for danger.
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It gets you in trouble as an adult because you re not really in danger anymore, but you re assuming everyone s going to trick you or lying to you or going to hurt you or abandon you.
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And so you re looking for signs of it so that you can go, ah, I ll do it first.
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An example of that, your phone call yesterday.
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Yeah, tell me about that.
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You were just like, I m almost finished with it.
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And I was like, oh, oh, that s OK.
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We don t have to do this.
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I ll let you off the hook.
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That broke my heart.
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After we hung up.
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Oh, for today?
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Oh my God.
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I was like, oh, that s OK.
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You don t have to read it.
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And also, if you haven t read it, we don t have to do the thing.
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We can postpone it.
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And he was like, what are you talking about?
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I m letting you off the hook before you have to ask to be let off the hook.
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You re free.
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And I hung up and I m like, Minka, Jesus.
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Relax.
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No, I knew all that when I hung up because I just said like, oh my God, I m halfway through your book.
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I m on my way home.
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I m going to read the rest of it.
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But it s so incredible.
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I just want to tell you how impactful it is.
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Yeah.
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And you interpret that as me saying like, we need to postpone or potentially I m yes, yes, yes, yes.
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Yes.
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That was great.
7
48, 42.
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Still doing it.
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But at least we re talking about it and we have the awareness of it.
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Right.
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So you can go, ah, I m doing that thing.
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SPEAKER_01
You were kinda close with him, yeah?
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SPEAKER_01
Or you guys had racing in common?
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SPEAKER_00
He s been gone long enough that I will tell you he and I were pretty much best friends.
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SPEAKER_00
You were?
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, pretty much best friends.
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We were like brothers.
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Oh my God.
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That s awesome.
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No, I hardly knew him.
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Oh!
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We re so gullible.
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Oh my God.
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You really got us.
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You know, fuck you, because not only did you get me,
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We get to be friends you did yeah, but I I
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would never presume to insinuate myself into his life.
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I knew him.
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He and I purchased a car together that I still have, the Volvo wagon.
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We knew each other from racing.
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We talked on the phone.
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So we were friendly.
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SPEAKER_00
I went up to the Hole in the Wall gang once with Paul.
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A life-changing moment, to be sure.
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I always felt, not that my opinion counts much, but that s the way people are supposed to be, was Paul.
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So once you announced you were going to retire, you had a year of doing the show where people, when they were on, they pretty much knew this was going to be it.
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I mean, the level of discomfort you experienced while people told you how much you meant to them was obvious.
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I can tell that s really not your favorite thing to receive.
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Ironically, right?
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We just want validation and approval.
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And then when it comes, it s painful for some reason.
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SPEAKER_02
So I didn t say any of this until the end, but we re at the end.
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You re the first thing I started watching that I became obsessed with, you know, probably 11 years old.
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I had zero dreams of being in show business.
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I didn t want to be a comedian or anything, but I would practice being interviewed by you in the mirror all through my teens.
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I would just think about what it d be like to get interviewed by you.
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And the reason is you were irreverent.
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SPEAKER_02
You weren t a jock, but women liked you.
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SPEAKER_02
You were sarcastic, but you weirdly stood up for things that you valued.
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SPEAKER_02
You were incredibly brave, but not machismo.
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You really gave so many of us
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permission to like who we were, identified with you.
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I was like, Oh my God, maybe through being smart and thoughtful, I can have value and be loved.
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SPEAKER_02
And it was so encouraging.
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And I dreamt about being on your show my whole life.
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I was on your show.
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I ve been in show business for 20 years.
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SPEAKER_02
It was the best moment of my whole experience.
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SPEAKER_02
I know you hate that.
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SPEAKER_01
He is scowling.
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SPEAKER_02
That was it for me.
7
SPEAKER_02
Sitting there, staring at your real face.
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SPEAKER_02
You were kind to me.
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I could tell you kind of liked me.
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And I know when you like people and you don t.
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It felt so incredible that when I look back on it, that s the moment for me.
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And I just need to say to you, in my wildest dreams, never thought you d then come to my house and let me interview you.
7
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And this will be with me in my heart forever.
7
SPEAKER_02
And I just want to thank you.
7
SPEAKER_00
Well, Monica, don t you have something to add?
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You know, I got the resour-
8
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, okay, this is interesting.
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This guy s in comedy.
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No.
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It s a dream.
8
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It s a dream come true.
8
SPEAKER_01
That s very, very sweet.
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SPEAKER_01
And it s meaningful because connected to your childhood, that s pretty powerful.
8
SPEAKER_01
And why it s meaningful to me is because we ve been here in this room for, geez, it seemed like six, seven hours.
8
SPEAKER_01
But I kind of feel pretty strongly about this experience.
8
SPEAKER_01
And so to have you say that to me now is very nice.
8
SPEAKER_01
Thank you.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I know it hurts, but I just wanted to say... You know, it doesn t hurt.
8
SPEAKER_01
Something about the hospitality and the fun that I ve enjoyed here makes it palatable and believable.
8
SPEAKER_00
Was it as good as that dinner with Morgan Freeman?
8
SPEAKER_01
Well, thank you, Dax, and thank you, Monica.
8
SPEAKER_01
Thank you.