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 This is episode number 1,215 with New York Times bestselling author Donald Miller.
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Welcome to the School of Greatness.
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My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur.
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And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness.
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Thanks for spending some time with me today.
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Now let the class begin.
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 Welcome back, my friend.
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Today's guest is the inspiring Donald Miller.
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He is the host of the business made simple podcast and is the author of multiple books, including the bestsellers blue light jazz, a million miles in a thousand years and building a story brand.
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And he has written a new book.
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 called Hero on a Mission, A Path to a Meaningful Life.
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I loved diving into this book.
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I loved this interview so much.
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It was incredibly inspiring and moving and powerful and I know you're going to get a ton of value from this as well because there are four main characters in each one of our lives and the quality of our life will really be determined based on which character we move into in each season of our life.
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 So in this episode, we discuss how there are these four characters in our lives and how you can manage and move through them to get to the best one for you.
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Why it's important to constantly think about your life as a story.
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Donald dives into the importance of story as your life.
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 the key elements to your story and living a meaningful life, why Donald believes everyone should write their own eulogy, and so much more.
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This was packed with a lot of great wisdom.
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We covered a lot of different topics as well, and I think you're going to love this one.
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If you're enjoying it at any moment, make sure to share this with a friend that you think would be inspired by this message and interview as well.
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You can copy and paste the link lewishouse.com slash 1215, or just wherever you're listening to this podcast, share the link out over on social media or text a few friends as well.
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 And I want to give a big shout out to the fan of the week.
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We've got millions of listeners every week.
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I think we're over 17 million listeners and viewers from around the world every month now, which is inspiring to see how big the show is actually getting from YouTube to audio and everywhere in between.
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 And I want to give a shout out to the fans, people that are engaging and really connecting and, and leaving comments and reviews.
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And so this is from Stevie and Jess who left reviews over on apple podcast.
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And they said, Louis, you are my latest habit and I have stacked listening to your podcast with my daily walk.
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 and can be seen on the sidewalk nodding, smiling, laughing, and thinking deeply about so many messages you and your guests provide.
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Even at 49 years old, I feel growth and development of my own mindset, life stance, and daily actions is so critical.
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I'm grateful to you and your team, sir.
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So Stevie and Jess, we appreciate you.
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Thank you for listening, for constantly improving.
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I'm a big believer that we should have a beginner's mind at every stage of life.
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 always enjoying learning developing myself, you know learning from my mistakes and I'm glad that this show and all the guests we have on Inspire you as well at this stage of your life And if you guys want a chance to be shouted out on the podcast You can leave a review over on Apple podcast right now.
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Make sure you're subscribed and again big Thank you to all your support by listening to this show.
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Okay in just a moment the one and only Donald Miller
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 What would you say are the three things that you were able to heal within the last, I guess, eight years of being together and knowing each other?
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It's all still happening.
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The trust thing, knowing that she's not gonna fool around or flirt with somebody else, and some relationships are like that, but I'm not comfortable in that.
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I just completely now have somebody who
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 I just feel like I don't have to give a second thought to.
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And she has flirted with other people.
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And I just kind of go, I bet you that was fun.
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She's like, oh, he's cute.
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And I'm like, yeah, there you go.
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That's a level of trust that's a whole other level.
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Of course.
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And so it's just fun.
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I mean, Louis, it's just fun.
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And then the healing that has happened to me in terms of just calming down,
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 when you have to be somewhere because somebody's expecting you, you know, those sorts of things, you just grow up real fast, you know, really, really fast.
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And then, you know, so that's a big part.
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And then the other part was, it probably took me two or three years to realize, oh, wait a second, this isn't just her healing me.
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 I'm actually going to heal her in some ways.
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And I'm going to be a really trustworthy guy who just constantly says encouraging things and tries not to ever say anything demeaning or negative.
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And that's not true because I have.
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But if you're in a relationship with somebody who doesn't believe that they have the power to give anything to you, it's not going to work.
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 If they don't believe they have the power to actually that their love for you actually means something It won't work relationship won't work Why won't it work because you're gonna be giving everything to them and they're never gonna be giving back because they don't believe they have anything to get Interesting, you know, so it's I think it's really important.
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We have very high self-esteem In our relationships that we believe no my words actually have the power to heal this person How do you think we build self-esteem if we don't have much of it?
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I
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 Okay, this is going to be controversial.
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I don't believe that you can look in the mirror and say that you're awesome and build self-esteem.
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I actually think you have to chalk up some wins.
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 Yeah, it's gotta be some results in your life.
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Exactly, you gotta go finish a marathon.
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That'll do it.
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Get a good haircut, buy some new clothes.
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All that superficial stuff actually means something, and writing a book like you did and finishing it, if you start chalking up wins, your identity begins to change.
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The role you play in the story of your life will determine your character.
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How important is identity for ourselves?
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It's everything.
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 Why?
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Because you will operate out of your identity.
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 In stories, there are four characters, four major characters, the victim, the villain, the hero, and the guide.
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So let me describe them.
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The victim is the one who believes they are doomed and they have no way out and they are looking for a rescuer.
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The villain is the one who makes others small.
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They demean others in order to feel powerful, sometimes physically.
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The hero is the one who
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 Really doesn't have what it takes but accepts the challenge and transforms until they can get the job done And then the guide is the one who has played the hero for so long They have the expertise to turn around help somebody else You will see those four characters in every story and here's why those four characters exist in every story They exist in every story because they exist in you.
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You are not one of them.
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You are all four and
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 And I'm all four.
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And really if you look at your day you'll play all four characters in one day.
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If you're jumping on a plane and it's late yeah yeah.
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If you walk out and your car's been stolen you're gonna feel sorry for yourself and be I'm doomed and why does this happen to me and that's the victim.
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 If somebody calls and cancels an interview, you're going to feel disrespected.
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You're going to say, that's the villain.
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The hero is the one who says, I'm not going to stop.
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I'm going to make sure this happens until I bench 300 pounds.
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I'm going to show up every day and I'm going to transform until I can be the guy who does it.
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And the guide is the one who says,
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 This guy's about to step on a landmine.
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I think I need to go talk to him.
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And so we play those four characters every day.
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But here's the truth.
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The more you identify as the victim, the worse your story will go.
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 Victims in stories do not transform.
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They're bit parts that make the hero look good and the villain look bad.
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It's a bit part.
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And at the end of the story, you'll notice the victim sits on the bumper of the ambulance, they put a blanket around him, and the camera shows him for a second, then it goes over and shows the hero getting their reward.
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The story's about the hero.
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Yeah, who saved or guided the, yeah.
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That's right.
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So when we play the victims, our stories go nowhere, we don't transform, we never get what we want.
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We don't build a legacy, we're not remembered.
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And we suck all the energy into ourselves.
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 And people need to get away from us.
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And so if you play the victim, your story will go like a victim in a movie.
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If you play the villain, where you're nice to people when the camera's on, but you're cussing them out behind the scenes, or you have so many friends who threaten to sue all the time.
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I'm like, do you realize how fast?
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You're suing other people.
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Yeah, other people.
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That's how they operate.
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And I'm like, do you realize that as soon as you send that email, they get on the phone and call 20 people?
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 and you're burning bridges left and right.
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You're being a villain.
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This is what the villain would do in a movie.
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Don't do it, because here's what happens to a villain in a movie.
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They're shot.
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 Right, they die.
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They die.
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They go to jail.
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They die or they go to jail.
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Yeah.
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And so the same thing's going to happen to you.
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You may not go to jail, but you're going to be in a social prison where people are going to... And then you've got to cycle through friends because you've burned them all out.
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The hero, what happens to the hero is they experience a reward because they accomplished something great.
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But the bigger thing is they transform.
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So at the beginning of the movie, they are ill-equipped, they are afraid, they don't know what to do.
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 They need help and at the end of the movie they are strong.
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And if we want to become a better version of ourselves we have to do what heroes do.
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And what heroes do is they see something that they can't do.
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 They accept that they can't do it and they become the person who can do it by continuing to hit their head against the wall.
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That's what they do.
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And then what we find out is if we do that 10 or 12 times and we become the great awesome man, which tends to happen to us in our late 20s.
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I think we're invincible.
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We start figuring out it's actually a pretty empty life.
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 And we turn around and we help somebody else and we go, wait a second, that felt really meaningful.
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And you start playing the guide more and more.
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And so the real beautiful journey of life is you have this opportunity to play the hero and you slowly transform into the guide.
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I did a, if you ever get a chance to interview Pete Carroll with the Seahawks.
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I went up and he gave me 15 minutes in his office and we spent two hours together.
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 And one of the things that I asked him, because in these interviews sometimes I'll ask, I'll say, hey, when did you realize that you were special?
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Now, almost everybody I've ever asked that to played the humble card and said, oh, there's nothing.
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He didn't.
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And I really liked it.
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He said, I was in high school.
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He said, my doctor wouldn't let me play football because I was too small, but I knew that I was bigger than my body.
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I knew it.
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 I knew I was special.
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That's cool.
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It was very cool.
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I was so glad he was honest.
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And then I said, I said, but did that bring you meaning by accomplishing so much?
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And he said, no.
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He said, one of the best things that ever happened to me is I chalked up a lot of wins when I was young.
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 because I realized they were empty.
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And it wasn't until I started coaching and helping other people, other heroes win, that I found meaning.
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That's kind of how I felt.
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Well, that's what you do.
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If you think about it, you play the guy.
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Yeah.
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Right?
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You sit there.
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You metabolize content quickly and turn around so that somebody else can use it.
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Yeah.
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There was something always missing inside.
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Yeah.
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Like I would go and spend years, sometimes decades, pursuing a goal, and then I would accomplish it.
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 And then I'd be like, well, now what?
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And I didn't have, there was like a feeling of like, yes, I can do what I set out to do, but it wasn't a deeper fulfillment.
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And I think, I don't know if it was because for most of my life I was doing, I was accomplishing things to prove people wrong.
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And so the energy and the effort behind trying to
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 you know, prove the three bullies wrong, or these people who said no to me wrong, or who picked me last, and like having that fuel left me feeling like it wasn't a meaningful fuel.
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The pursuit and the goal was significant for me, but the energy behind it wasn't.
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 out of pure love and I think if it was out of like I'm doing this because I love it because I want to inspire people as opposed to I want to prove to like I don't know all these people wrong I might have had more fulfillment.
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But when I transition into well how can I just serve?
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 and through the school of greatness and how can I collect information from wise people like yourself and then facilitate and share this with others and help them improve.
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That's when it became another level of fulfillment.
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Victor Frankl would say that in order to be meaningful, an objective needs to be mutually beneficial.
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It needs to benefit you and it needs to benefit others.
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If it only benefits you, it won't work.
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Interesting.
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 You know, it needs to be a team or a, you know, you can't do it alone.
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One of the three things that Viktor Frankl said you need to put into your life in order to experience a deep sense of meaning is community.
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And he also included art and nature into that, because basically he was saying, you got to stop staring at your belly button, pulling the lint out and holding it up to the light.
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You're going to drive yourself nuts.
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Get into a community and share an objective with a group of people and try to accomplish it.
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 What happens if we just do it something for ourselves only?
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It'll be empty.
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You know, when you watch a story, you know, there's been like 37 Rocky movies, right?
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But I can't remember which one I watched that, you know, Rocky wanted to win the heavyweight bout.
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That's always the story.
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But if you think about it, wanting to win the heavyweight championship is a very selfish endeavor.
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And so if you play that movie out and he wins it, the audience will not like him.
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In fact, they'll turn on him.
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 So what they had what the screenwriters had to do to make the story work is they had rocky start mentoring a fatherless kid Take care of a single mom buy an old homeless man dinner.
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I'm not kidding He goes to a dog pound and rescues a dog and adopts the dog that way the audience will cheer for him when he wins the heavyweight fight and
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 Because he's doing it for more people than himself.
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Because it's a good person winning the championship rather than just a person who's driven only for themself.
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Now what's fascinating about that is the screenwriters had to put all of that in there in order to make the movie work.
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So what does that tell us about life?
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We've got to put all that in there to make it work.
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If you want to experience, you know, your life is a story.
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 It is, your life is a story.
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And when people say I'm restless or I'm bored, I had a great coffee with an acquaintance in Portland.
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A friend of mine said, will you get together with my friend, you wrote a book about traveling around America.
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He wants to write a book about traveling around America, he just finished.
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Will you get together?
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I did, the kid's 10 years younger than me, just starting out in writing.
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And I realized pretty quickly, this kid is a nihilist.
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This kid believes that life is futile and there's no meaning to any of it.
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Which in Portland is like,
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 Right?
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I mean, on the state flag, you could just have life is meaningless, but marijuana-ly.
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But, you know, I said something to him that was offensive.
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What'd you say?
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I said, what if life is not meaningless?
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What if just your life is meaningless?
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Ooh, dang.
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And here's what I meant by that.
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 What if life hands you the opportunity to live a story and the story that you are writing with your life is not pleasing or satisfying?
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It's boring.
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It's the equivalent of sitting in a theater and watching a blank screen.
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I said, life is not meaningless.
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Life is just stuff that you can put together and make what you want with it.
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What you have made is meaningless and it's giving you the experience of meaninglessness, but don't project your meaninglessness on me.
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Don't say the world is meaningless.
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 What's the point of being here just because you haven't created something meaningful?
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That's exactly, yeah, or even meaningful for yourself, right?
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Life hands us these cultural scripts, right?
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When we're born, we're born into a family, you know, we're the son or we're the daughter, and our parents give us a script.
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 And we play out that story.
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Then we get into school, and it's usually an education script.
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Then you get into university, and there are two scripts happening in university.
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One is a career script, and the other is find a mate, or whatever.
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Those are the scripts.
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Then you get married, and you have kids, and there's a family script.
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And you know what happens after that?
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There are no more cultural scripts.
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 Nobody gives you a script.
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And so what is midlife crisis?
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It's literally you've played out the story that culture gave you and you did not create a new one for yourself.
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And so now you're sitting in the theater of your own mind, you're watching a blank screen and it's driving you crazy.
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That, my friend, is your fault.
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 So if someone's in their early 20s, what should they be reconsidering about their story?
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They should look at their life like a story.
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They should say, look, if I were a hero in a story, what would I do differently?
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I've heard Joe Rogan say this.
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I've heard a number of people say it.
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But if I were a hero in a story and I were talking to my girlfriend this way,
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 What does that do to the story?
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Does the audience root for this character?
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Do they not like this character?
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Some of the biggest regrets of my life are things that I've said to people that if you showed that out of context, if you just showed that, everybody would go, oh, it's the villain.
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That stuff is in my story.
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So then you ask yourself, okay, if I've screwed up, how do you fix it?
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Well, how would a hero fix it?
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 You apologize.
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You make it right.
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You don't do that again.
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And everybody's going, oh, we like this guy.
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And so it's pretty easy.
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Now, how does a villain change their identity into a hero?
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I have a cynical view of villains.
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I think it's very, very difficult.
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 Difficult for a narcissistic control freak to actually change Yeah, but how do you do it?
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We just had a therapist who's the expert on narcissism On and it's been going viral and she was like you can't change a narcissist.
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I kind of agree with that It's like unless they're willing to look within which that's right and take accountability, which is almost impossible and say I want to go to therapy and
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 couple days a week and do this for years to be willing to really start to break these patterns.
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I don't know if it's that extreme, but this is what she said based on her experience of decades of working with narcissists.
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So you're saying villains are hard to change.
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 Well, not all villains.
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I have a friend who occasionally had the honor of visiting.
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His name is Terry.
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And Terry is on death row in Tennessee.
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Terry killed a young woman when he was about 18 years old.
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Raped her and killed her.
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And Terry is probably 55 now.
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And he's consistently scheduled to be executed.
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But when you sit and talk to Terry, he has wholeheartedly processed
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 what he did.
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 wholeheartedly, so much so that he's actually written back and forth with family members of the young woman.
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And they've written to him.
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And I think the path to going from villain to hero is when the villain stops and says, I was wrong, and I have to make amends for what I did.
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And then that character, if we're watching a movie, is now transformed into a hero and can move on.
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And they can start to see themselves as a hero.
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 But that's really hard for somebody to do when they believe that if they admit that they're wrong it puts me in a weak position and I'm vulnerable and now I'm exposed to an outside threat.
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They think I'll never ever admit that I'm wrong because that's a weakness and one rule of being a villain is never ever show that you're weak.
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 Why is vulnerability such a key factor in life?
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Because it's truth.
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Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_02
Why is it so hard for so many people?
0
SPEAKER_00
It's hard for me.
0
SPEAKER_02
Like your mom, you said, she wasn't vulnerable for many years.
0
SPEAKER_02
I don't know if that ever changed.
0
SPEAKER_00
She was.
0
SPEAKER_00
She was so vulnerable in the last 15 years of her life.
0
SPEAKER_00
She was incredibly vulnerable.
0
SPEAKER_00
Really?
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_02
Why did that shift?
0
SPEAKER_00
She realized, and her children did such a good job loving her.
0
SPEAKER_00
I hate to take, for my sister and I, to take some credit for that.
0
SPEAKER_00
 But I think that was a big, big part of it.
0
SPEAKER_00
And then I just think she became a grandma because of my sister.
0
SPEAKER_00
She never got to meet my baby.
0
SPEAKER_00
But I think that was part of it too.
0
SPEAKER_00
Who knows?
0
SPEAKER_00
I think villainy and pride go hand in hand.
0
SPEAKER_00
 And my mom, she divorced my dad, or my dad left when I was two years old.
0
SPEAKER_00
And my mom made a decision, we never talked about it, but I know from the way she lived her life, she made a decision she would never, ever, ever get her heart broken again.
0
SPEAKER_00
So for the last 40 years of her life, she never dated.
0
SPEAKER_00
She had no love.
0
SPEAKER_00
She had no love.
0
SPEAKER_00
Man, that's tough.
0
SPEAKER_00
Because she was not gonna get hurt.
0
SPEAKER_00
 She was not going to take that risk.
0
SPEAKER_02
Isn't that crazy?
0
SPEAKER_02
The fear of pain or feeling that pain once can have us hold on to it for so long.
0
SPEAKER_02
Yep.
0
SPEAKER_02
To not want to put ourselves out there and experience love again.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yep.
0
SPEAKER_00
Or to become cynical about the nature of love itself.
0
SPEAKER_00
Or to not realize that the person that you love is actually going to hurt you.
0
SPEAKER_00
 They're just gonna do it.
0
SPEAKER_00
They're gonna hurt you, and you're gonna hurt them.
0
SPEAKER_00
But what is love if it's this conditional thing of like, well, it's over if you hurt me?
0
SPEAKER_00
That's not love, right?
0
SPEAKER_00
I don't think we can expect to always be respected or cared about by the person that we're with.
0
SPEAKER_00
And so our ability to be forgiving creates an even greater bond.
0
SPEAKER_00
And our willingness to say, no, I'm going down with this ship.
0
SPEAKER_00
 If you hurt me, it's going to be worse than death.
0
SPEAKER_00
But I am here.
0
SPEAKER_00
That was the other thing that I realized in so many relationships early on that you can't control somebody and love them at the same time.
0
SPEAKER_00
It doesn't work.
0
SPEAKER_00
Why not?
0
SPEAKER_00
Because if you're controlling them, it's not a genuine relationship.
0
SPEAKER_00
 What is it?
0
SPEAKER_00
It's you interacting with a puppet.
0
SPEAKER_00
Oh, man.
0
SPEAKER_00
And if the puppet, by the way, is pure fantasy on your part because they're actually not a puppet.
0
SPEAKER_00
They're complying.
0
SPEAKER_00
Right.
0
SPEAKER_00
But compliance isn't genuine.
0
SPEAKER_00
You just can't control somebody and love them at the same time.
0
SPEAKER_00
You can't control somebody and be in a loving relationship.
0
SPEAKER_00
It doesn't work.
0
SPEAKER_00
 What's the alternative?
0
SPEAKER_00
Set them free.
0
SPEAKER_00
I mean think you know, let's go back to sting If you love somebody set them free.
0
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I think that's that's the alternative Is that set them free by not being with them or set them free in the relationship?
0
SPEAKER_00
You set them free in the relationship So what I learned was that you stop in in my relationship with betsy.
0
SPEAKER_00
Hopefully if i'm doing it, right I'm, never wanting betsy to be different or i'm wanting betsy to change
0
SPEAKER_00
 What I'm wanting is, what I have boundaries on, is the relationship that we are in.
0
SPEAKER_00
So in a dating relationship, you would never say, I can't be with somebody who does this.
0
SPEAKER_00
What you would say is, I don't want to be in a relationship that feels this way.
0
SPEAKER_00
Do you want to change so that we can be in this, or not?
0
SPEAKER_00
My friend Henry Cloud, who's here in town, says, you've got to view some relationships like a Coke machine.
0
SPEAKER_00
 If you put $1.25 in a Coke machine and it doesn't give you a Coke machine, you go to a different machine.
0
SPEAKER_00
You don't keep putting money in, press other buttons.
0
SPEAKER_00
This doesn't work.
0
SPEAKER_00
And so when you're in a relationship, you go, actually, I'm looking for commitment and affection, and you're just looking to get laid or whatever.
0
SPEAKER_00
It won't work.
0
SPEAKER_00
It won't work.
0
SPEAKER_00
Stop putting money into it.
0
SPEAKER_00
Go to a different one.
0
SPEAKER_02
 And it's it takes responsibility from both parties to recognize and see that yeah And then I expect something from the person who's just wanting to get laid and expect something different And then not expect you to be different as well.
0
SPEAKER_02
It's like it's never gonna work.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah Yeah, it took me a long time to have awareness, but don't you think love and fear go hand in hand?
0
SPEAKER_02
yeah, because I'm having conversations with my girlfriend in the last few weeks that I had some like a
0
SPEAKER_02
 I had to step into courage, like let go of past fears and step into courageous thought, action, words that felt a little like, not fearful, but just like, man, I want it to work out.
0
SPEAKER_02
You know, you want it to be well.
0
SPEAKER_02
You want it to be healthy, you want it to be strong.
0
SPEAKER_02
And so it takes courage, I think, to fully love and not go through pain again.
0
SPEAKER_00
It does.
0
SPEAKER_00
You know, I found my dad.
0
SPEAKER_00
 He left when you were two he's left when I was two and I found him when I was in my mid-30s Really, I had just released a book about growing up without a father.
0
SPEAKER_00
What was that?
0
SPEAKER_00
Like it was terrifying he lived in Indiana and I called him and said My name is Donald Miller.
0
SPEAKER_00
I'm your son and
0
SPEAKER_00
 And I'm on my way to your house.
0
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
0
SPEAKER_00
Left a voicemail.
0
SPEAKER_00
He called me back.
0
SPEAKER_00
So I know he got the call, but I was too scared to answer it.
0
SPEAKER_00
I'm driving to his house.
0
SPEAKER_00
I'm in Chicago.
0
SPEAKER_00
I'm six hours away.
0
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
0
SPEAKER_00
And I'm too scared to answer.
0
SPEAKER_00
I don't want to have a... I don't know what to do.
0
SPEAKER_00
And knocked on his door, went in, and he's watching Fox News.
0
SPEAKER_00
He's drinking a beer.
0
SPEAKER_00
 And I was very happy about two things.
0
SPEAKER_00
He had his hair and he was in good health.
0
SPEAKER_00
And we just had this conversation and he explained what happened.
0
SPEAKER_00
Mom, who I love, who passed away, who became this amazing woman, emasculated him.
0
SPEAKER_00
And he felt the need to leave.
0
SPEAKER_00
And I didn't understand how could you, there's something biochemical that happens when you have a kid.
0
SPEAKER_00
 How can anything pull you away from that?
0
SPEAKER_00
It just made no sense to me.
0
SPEAKER_00
And Louis, we had a baby six months ago, and one of the things that I thought was so amazing, I still felt like, how can anything pull you away from this?
0
SPEAKER_00
But what I didn't realize, what I never saw coming was,
0
SPEAKER_00
 My entire happiness, well-being, view of whether or not life is good or bad, now depends on the well-being of this child.
0
SPEAKER_00
In other words, if anything happens to this kid, my life is over.
0
SPEAKER_00
Really?
0
SPEAKER_00
My marriage is over.
0
SPEAKER_00
My understanding and view of whether or not God is good is over.
0
SPEAKER_00
Really?
0
SPEAKER_00
Everything.
0
SPEAKER_02
Is that what you're telling yourself right now?
0
SPEAKER_02
It's what's true.
0
SPEAKER_02
 Is it the truth or is it?
0
SPEAKER_00
I think if anything happened to Emmeline, I don't know that I could survive.
0
SPEAKER_00
Come on.
0
SPEAKER_00
I don't know.
0
SPEAKER_00
Really?
0
SPEAKER_00
The parents are watching this going, oh, Lewis is going to find out.
0
SPEAKER_00
Right.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I think it was Madeline L'Engle who said, having a child is like having your heart walk around the room.
0
SPEAKER_02
Oh, my gosh.
0
SPEAKER_00
Outside your body.
0
SPEAKER_00
That's tough, yeah.
0
SPEAKER_02
Why wouldn't the marriage work if something happened?
0
SPEAKER_00
 I think so much of what became the purpose of our lives was to give ourselves sacrificially to the well-being of this child, not all of it.
0
SPEAKER_00
We still give to each other, we still have our identities, but to lose something that you love that much is, I just don't know that I, parents do it and parents survive.
0
SPEAKER_00
 There's always something kind of missing.
0
SPEAKER_00
But I just don't know how they do it.
0
SPEAKER_00
And thank God and pray that we never have to answer that question.
0
SPEAKER_00
But I only say all that to say love demands courage.
0
SPEAKER_00
So why did my father leave?
0
SPEAKER_00
I think one of the reasons is this is freaking scary.
0
SPEAKER_00
This is terrifying.
0
SPEAKER_02
What was the biggest lesson you learned growing up without a father?
0
SPEAKER_00
 I learned that when you grow up with deficiencies, either monetary deficiencies or relational deficiencies or even physical handicaps, and I don't want to offend anybody,
0
SPEAKER_00
 You're actually at an advantage if you can metabolize that and turn it into strength.
0
SPEAKER_02
Why is that?
0
SPEAKER_00
Because when you work out, you go tear up your body.
0
SPEAKER_00
And it turns into muscle.
0
SPEAKER_00
The problem is a lot of people with monetary deficiencies or handicaps, whatever, they'll go into victim mindset.
0
SPEAKER_00
And so the muscle will never come.
0
SPEAKER_00
But if we can actually turn around and say, no, I'm going to see this as a hero in a story.
0
SPEAKER_00
Turn on your favorite movie.
0
SPEAKER_00
Here's how it starts.
3
SPEAKER_01
 Transform them into heroic characters with everything that's happening in the world in the last couple years Where do you think will be the biggest need over the next decade or two decades in the country, but also in the world from?
3
SPEAKER_01
this the The social media revolutions that are happening the pandemic stuff that's happening the governmental stuff that's happening here and also around the world What's the biggest need?
3
SPEAKER_01
 that we will need for heroes to step into.
3
SPEAKER_01
We have to de-incentivize tribalism.
3
SPEAKER_01
De-incentivize tribalism.
3
SPEAKER_01
What does that mean?
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, if you watch Fox News or MSNBC, to some degree CNN, really what's happened in the 24-hour news cycle is news stations have chosen a confirmation bias to exploit.
3
SPEAKER_00
 So they know Fox News hates Joe Biden, they hate Barack Obama.
3
SPEAKER_00
Let's paint those guys as enemy and really tell these people what they wanna hear so that we can sell advertising, because you gotta get eyeballs, and that's where we're gonna get eyeballs.
3
SPEAKER_00
MSNBC did the same thing on the left.
3
SPEAKER_00
So they are literally incentivized to divide the country and make you afraid of people.
3
SPEAKER_00
And until you economically de-incentivize that, and I don't know how you do that, there's no hope.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because what happens when two different media
3
SPEAKER_01
 you know, arms are competing against each other and making the other ones wrong.
3
SPEAKER_01
What happens if they stop doing that?
3
SPEAKER_00
They lose ratings.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and the story sells.
3
SPEAKER_00
Fiction, you know, and the other is out to get you.
3
SPEAKER_00
Gossip and yeah, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and the Democrats are, you know, molesting children under a pizza restaurant.
3
SPEAKER_00
That stuff sells.
3
SPEAKER_00
And people actually believe it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right?
3
SPEAKER_00
They actually believe it.
3
SPEAKER_01
So is this where story hurts us?
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, 100%.
3
SPEAKER_00
 Yeah, the brain has a very difficult time telling the difference between fiction and nonfiction.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so you can tell the brain some really absurd stuff that actually just makes no sense.
3
SPEAKER_00
But it's very hard for somebody's brain, once they hear the story, the story feels really entertaining and really clean.
3
SPEAKER_00
Therefore, it's got to be true, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
 And it takes probably a long time to make it untrue.
3
SPEAKER_00
It takes a long time to unravel it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
So what you see in society is the extreme left and the extreme right, they have the clearest narratives.
3
SPEAKER_00
But in reality, narratives aren't actually that clear.
3
SPEAKER_00
Bill Clinton was pretty well known for saying, look, I'm not as great as my fans say I am.
3
SPEAKER_00
I'm not as bad as my enemies say I am.
3
SPEAKER_00
I'm a pretty boring guy.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
But now you tell that to somebody on the far right, they'll say, no, he's evil.
3
SPEAKER_00
 He's not evil.
3
SPEAKER_00
Come on, give me a break.
3
SPEAKER_00
And Rush Limbaugh is not evil.
3
SPEAKER_00
He's an opportunist.
3
SPEAKER_00
He's making money.
3
SPEAKER_00
He didn't want worse.
3
SPEAKER_00
Is there anything worse for the world?
3
SPEAKER_00
So I think that once you understand how story works, you see how it's being used to manipulate.
3
SPEAKER_00
 the masses.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I think we all need a little bit of a healthy dose of cynicism when it comes to engaging our media right now.
3
SPEAKER_00
We also need to go, you know, one of the things with Build the Middle Class that I want to do, we've already created these flags.
3
SPEAKER_00
They have a bison on them because a bison almost went extinct, but America did something about it.
3
SPEAKER_00
 And so the middle class will go extinct unless America does something about it.
3
SPEAKER_00
So that's why the bison is our trademark.
3
SPEAKER_00
What will happen if it goes extinct?
3
SPEAKER_00
The middle class is shrinking and shrinking.
3
SPEAKER_00
The poor are getting poorer.
3
SPEAKER_00
The wealthier are getting wealthier because that's the way our tax code is set up.
3
SPEAKER_00
 So once the middle class shrinks down, you won't have much of a labor force, and the labor force will move to probably Africa, and it will be led by China.
3
SPEAKER_00
So that's what's happening in the world.
3
SPEAKER_00
But unless Republicans and Democrats can actually see eye to eye and get along.
3
SPEAKER_00
So one of the things that we're doing at Build the Middle Class is we're printing blue flags, and we're printing red flags, but it's the exact same flag.
3
SPEAKER_00
 So if you're a Democrat, fly the red flag.
3
SPEAKER_00
If you're a Republican, fly the blue flag.
3
SPEAKER_00
But what you're saying about flying that flag is I agree with the Republicans on these eight pieces of legislation.
3
SPEAKER_00
We've got to stop fighting.
3
SPEAKER_00
We've got to move forward.
3
SPEAKER_00
 You know, I work with a think tank in Washington, D.C.
3
SPEAKER_00
called Stand Together, and we're working on some immigration stuff.
3
SPEAKER_00
They actually just bring me in to do some messaging.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so I went in, and they explained the situation.
3
SPEAKER_00
They said, Don, there are three pieces of legislation in the House right now.
3
SPEAKER_00
If we pass them, we would have comprehensive immigration reform.
3
SPEAKER_00
We'd be done.
3
SPEAKER_00
No longer an issue.
3
SPEAKER_00
Seventy-six percent of Americans support the three pieces of legislation, whether you're Republican or Democrat.
3
SPEAKER_00
 Here's the problem.
3
SPEAKER_00
If a Democrat is in the White House, the Republicans won't pass it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And if the Republicans are in the White House, the Democrats won't pass it, because neither side wants to give the other side a win.
3
SPEAKER_00
The ego is crazy.
3
SPEAKER_00
And this has been happening for 40 years.
3
SPEAKER_00
So this has been happening on Medicare and Medicaid, Social Security reform.
3
SPEAKER_00
This has been happening on immigration.
3
SPEAKER_00
It's happening on education reform.
3
SPEAKER_00
It's happening on criminal justice reform.
3
SPEAKER_00
It's happening on clarifying and simplifying the tax code.
3
SPEAKER_00
 So you've got two bodies that hate each other so much they would rather not let the other side win for 40 consecutive years than give America what it wants and what it needs.
3
SPEAKER_00
The solutions to our problems are not complicated.
3
SPEAKER_00
They're actually very, very simple.
3
SPEAKER_00
 It's just these two egos won't actually sit in the same room and get along with each other.
3
SPEAKER_01
What if one said, hey, you give us this one, we'll give you the other one?
3
SPEAKER_00
They try to do that stuff, but they hate each other so much now they won't even meet.
3
SPEAKER_00
What?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, right now, currently, we're in, you know, right at the beginning of 2022, Republicans and Democrats won't get into a room together.
3
SPEAKER_01
You're talking about like in the country or you mean in D.C.?
3
SPEAKER_01
In federal, in D.C.
3
SPEAKER_01
Gotcha.
3
SPEAKER_01
That's not happening.
3
SPEAKER_01
They won't get into the room?
3
SPEAKER_01
No.
3
SPEAKER_01
And just talk it out?
3
SPEAKER_00
No.
3
SPEAKER_00
 They won't get in the room.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because they're not incentivized to do so.
3
SPEAKER_01
They're incentivized to win and be, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, their base won't, doesn't want them to do that.
3
SPEAKER_00
Their base, they're literally a significant percentage of Americans, you know, 15%, want to send somebody to DC just to hate the other side, rather than send somebody to DC to get,
3
SPEAKER_00
 work done that would save us enormous amounts of money and help us compete with China.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, it's a bad deal.
3
SPEAKER_00
This is my next story.
3
SPEAKER_01
What needs to happen in order for that to be disrupted so that we... There needs to be a... A different person comes in.
3
SPEAKER_00
There needs to be a platform as though it's a presidential platform in the middle that both Republicans and Democrats can sign on to.
3
SPEAKER_00
 And then that platform needs 30 or 40 million petition signatures and probably hundreds of millions of dollars to run ads to support the people who, and the narrative needs to change.
3
SPEAKER_00
It needs to change to this.
3
SPEAKER_00
If you are an extremist on the left or right and are unwilling to compromise, we don't want you here.
3
SPEAKER_00
If you can't, I think in four years, if you can't pass comprehensive immigration reform or comprehensive tax reform, you're fired.
3
SPEAKER_00
 If you paid a landscaper for four years and never showed up to mow your lawn, are you going to keep paying them?
3
SPEAKER_00
No.
3
SPEAKER_00
Why are we paying taxes when these people won't get anything done?
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
It's ridiculous.
3
SPEAKER_00
So, you know, that middle ground needs to be established.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right now it doesn't have a voice or a flag or a banner or a petition or a white paper or a book.
3
SPEAKER_01
How much worse does it need to get in order for that to potentially happen?
3
SPEAKER_00
 Yeah, I think we're about two clicks away.
3
SPEAKER_01
Two presidents away, you mean, or two years?
3
SPEAKER_00
Two clicks in terms of anger.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
I think, you know, if Kamala Harris were the next Democratic presidential nominee and Trump came back, you would have, you know, the country is either going to destroy itself or the country is going to figure out a different path.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I think we're really close.
3
SPEAKER_00
We've talked about a lot, Lewis.
3
SPEAKER_01
From relationships to heroes.
3
SPEAKER_01
 What's happening in the world the next definitely the best interview I've ever done.
3
SPEAKER_00
That's good.
3
SPEAKER_01
That's my that's my attention That's my attention here on a mission a path to a meaningful life is out People can get this if they want to have the framework the stories.
3
SPEAKER_01
I really like the part of writing your eulogy and
3
SPEAKER_01
 You've got everything at the end about creating a life plan for a one-year vision, which is something I'm a big fan of doing every year as well, and seeing that consistently.
3
SPEAKER_01
There's so much value in here, and you've been just consistent on creating these frameworks and this mission for so many years.
3
SPEAKER_01
 that I think everyone needs to get this book, especially if you feel like the last couple of years has been a challenge for you.
3
SPEAKER_01
I want you to get this book because it's going to give you meaning, it's going to give you purpose and direction, which I think a lot of people need right now is direction in their own lives.
3
SPEAKER_01
Hero on a Mission.
3
SPEAKER_01
Get it for your friends, get it for your family, get it for yourself.
3
SPEAKER_01
 It's going to really help you in a big way.
3
SPEAKER_01
Where can we follow you?
3
SPEAKER_01
Where can we connect with you the most that you spend the most time online?
3
SPEAKER_00
The best place to follow me is actually Donald Miller on Instagram because then you get to see pictures of my baby.
3
SPEAKER_00
There you go.
3
SPEAKER_00
 That's pretty fun.
3
SPEAKER_01
I like that you have a newsletter too, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
Do you share a lot more?
3
SPEAKER_00
Um We have oh, we have a podcast called business made simple.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes Yeah, no newsletter, but definitely a podcast called business made simple and then we really said on monday on thursday We're starting a new series called hero on a mission and our first couple interviews will be evan mcmullan
3
SPEAKER_00
 is on a mission to disrupt the two-party system.
3
SPEAKER_00
I'm hopeful to get an interview with Sean Brock, the chef, the James Beard award-winning chef, because he's on a mission to not disrupt the restaurant industry.
3
SPEAKER_00
You would absolutely love Sean Brock.
3
SPEAKER_00
You should interview Sean Brock.
3
SPEAKER_00
Sean Brock, okay.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes, Sean Brock.
3
SPEAKER_00
You should eat his food, too, because he's amazing.
3
SPEAKER_00
 Love Sean Brock.
3
SPEAKER_01
Okay, cool.
3
SPEAKER_00
He's in Nashville.
3
SPEAKER_00
Come to Nashville, bring your equipment, you can stay at our house.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I'll have to come down there for a week when my book launches.
3
SPEAKER_01
When is your book coming out?
3
SPEAKER_01
End of October, I believe.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_00
Of this coming?
3
SPEAKER_00
This year.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh yeah, very good.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, what's it called?
3
SPEAKER_00
No, don't know yet.
3
SPEAKER_01
Working title is The Greatness Mindset.
3
SPEAKER_01
 That's the working title, so.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, come to Nashville.
3
SPEAKER_00
Let us handle the whole thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
We'll hook you up with Parnassus Books, which is Ann Patchett's.
3
SPEAKER_00
She was shortlisted for the Pulitzer or the Nobel Prize or whatever.
3
SPEAKER_00
She's got a bookstore in Nashville.
3
SPEAKER_01
So they can route it through there.
3
SPEAKER_00
It's a mile.
3
SPEAKER_00
 Get buses from the bookstore straight to the Carriage House at Goose Hill and you can do an event there.
3
SPEAKER_01
I'm in.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it would be really, really fun.
3
SPEAKER_00
That'd be fun.
3
SPEAKER_00
You would love Nashville.
3
SPEAKER_00
Bring your girl.
3
SPEAKER_01
I know.
3
SPEAKER_00
Actually, the guest house is done in May, so you guys can just stay at the guest house.
3
SPEAKER_01
She's filming in Atlanta, so it's not too far, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
It's four hours.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, maybe we'll drive up there as well.
3
SPEAKER_01
What's the one skill you're going to need to master over the next few years to help you accomplish these missions?
3
SPEAKER_00
 I think I've gotten pretty good at it over the years, but quite honestly, I'm going to have to start saying no to some really awesome opportunities.
3
SPEAKER_01
You just did this last couple of weeks, you said this money won, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I'm going to have to do a lot more of that.
3
SPEAKER_01
And the more you accomplish, the more great opportunities are going to come.
3
SPEAKER_01
Isn't that the challenge?
3
SPEAKER_01
It just compounds, doesn't it?
3
SPEAKER_01
 Just compounds it is and then that's why reading or eulogy is so important because you don't you don't get the time back You don't business made simple comm Donald Miller everywhere Instagram was the main place Twitter and Facebook as well Make sure you guys get the book here on a mission a path to a meaningful life Before I ask the final two questions.
3
SPEAKER_01
I want to acknowledge you Donald even though you're practicing not getting a
3
SPEAKER_01
 I wanna acknowledge you for your, really your vulnerability and your honesty in the things that you wanna work on still.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I think saying, you know what, I still wanna get credit and I still have an ego here and I still like this and wanting to work on those things I think is really inspiring.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I acknowledge you for being honest about all these things and having the vulnerability.
3
SPEAKER_01
I acknowledge you for having a child at 50 and stepping into this season of your life and seeing the value that'll come from
3
SPEAKER_01
 Having a child and starting a family at this time, I acknowledge you for healing and constantly being on a healing journey because I think it's hard to create meaningful work in the world if we aren't healing ourselves and on that journey.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I know your three big missions are gonna take a healed husband and father and man, not a hurt man, in kind of taking on those missions.
3
SPEAKER_01
 So I really acknowledge you in having a healthy body, mind and soul.
3
SPEAKER_01
You look extremely young, you look extremely healthy and whole.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so I really acknowledge you for the incredible work you've done to overcome all the challenges in your life to get to this point right now.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I'm very excited about this book and your journey and I can't wait to see you in Nashville.
3
SPEAKER_01
 This question is called the three truths So it's I remember this.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah So imagine it's your last day on earth many years away and we're getting you to a hundred so you got three Lucy's and For whatever reason all of your content is gone or it goes with you to the next place and you don't get to Have any of your books or written word or this interview?
3
SPEAKER_01
It's it's not available in the world anymore for whatever reason it's gone and
3
SPEAKER_01
 Hypothetical and you get a piece of paper and a pen you get to write down three lessons that you would share with the world Three things, you know to be true from your life experiences and this is all we would have from you of your content What would you say would be those three truths that you would share?
3
SPEAKER_00
I would repeat the truths that Viktor Frankl put in his book because I think he's smarter than me and I would say have a project that engages your attention because it's gonna help you love life and
3
SPEAKER_00
 Don't do it alone.
3
SPEAKER_00
Bring a community with you and just know it's going to be hard and that's a good thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
Those are the three truths.
3
SPEAKER_00
Those are beautiful.
3
SPEAKER_00
Final question.
3
SPEAKER_00
What's your definition of greatness?
3
SPEAKER_00
My definition of greatness is that what I hope that happens at my funeral is that people talk more about how I encouraged what they were able to accomplish and less about what I was able to accomplish.
3
SPEAKER_00
That's good.
3
SPEAKER_01
 Thank you so much for listening.
3
SPEAKER_01
I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness.
3
SPEAKER_01
Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links.
3
SPEAKER_01
And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple Podcasts as well.
3
SPEAKER_01
 I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most.
3
SPEAKER_01
And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.
3
SPEAKER_01
And now it's time to go out there and do something great.