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 We Are Supported By is brought to you by Chevrolet.
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Find new roads.
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This was a fun day.
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Wow.
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Big day.
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Big, big, big day for us.
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You've been in touch with KKW.
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Yes, I have.
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SPEAKER_02
And I
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 I have always secretly in my heart wanted to tell everyone how lovely I thought she was because there are a lot of things people can say about women when they present themselves in a certain way or when they don't.
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People come to conclusions.
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 about people, but more specifically, people come to conclusions about women.
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And this particular woman has been so thoughtful and forthright in my life.
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There have been a couple times where I have had lawyer friends be working on death row cases where the person clearly did not do it and or have served way more their time, like just those injustices in the justice system.
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And every time I have reached out, she has responded within five minutes and said, who can I call?
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What doors can I open?
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 And she has taken a personal interest in all of these cases.
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And I just, it speaks to her really, really good heart.
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But she's not just a good-hearted person.
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She's also an American media personality.
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She is a model, a businesswoman, a producer.
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And her name is Kim Kardashian West.
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That's right.
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And I will say, speaking to her character and what you said about her
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 uh, philanthropic ideals.
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Also, you know, we were on vacation, me and you, and I was like, you know, I really would be amazing that we could get, we're like throwing like pie in the sky ideas for who we could have on this podcast.
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And I was like, it would be so awesome if we could get Kim on.
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And I was like, there's no like way.
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And you were like, well, let me see.
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And then you texted or DM'd her or something.
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And
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 Literally, within five minutes, you were like, oh, she said she'll do it.
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I was like, wait, what?
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Like, just so open when she does not have to be.
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She does not have to be.
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And I have to say, every single experience I've ever had with her, she is a good-hearted human being.
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 And I'm grateful that she said yes.
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And I'm also happy because it feels like to me there was a level of trust of I said like, look, we're here to talk about accomplishments and failures as women and we want to be good to you and we want to tell your story.
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And she was like, oh, of course, I'll be a part of that.
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I want to tell my story for other women and just talk about what my goals were, what I've done, why I've done it.
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 She was so incredibly open.
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And the thing that every time I interact with her that I love so much about her and hate about myself is that she is like the antithesis of a virtue signaler.
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Big time.
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Big time.
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Like this whole interview, you'll hear they're very specific words.
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When I talk, I'm nauseated by how often I'm saying phrases that could just make you puke, like save the world and help people be of service, which are all great ideas.
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They are.
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Once you say them more than a couple times, it's like, all right,
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 We get it.
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Let's watch your feet in action.
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Stop talking about it.
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She doesn't use phrases like that.
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She literally just does stuff.
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Yeah.
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She doesn't ask for credit.
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She doesn't even talk about it.
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Some of the stuff she's done on the cases that I've brought to her, the death row cases, have been monumental and not a single media player has covered it.
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Of course.
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They're too busy covering her eating a cheeseburger.
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Right.
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Or her eyelashes that week or something.
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And I'm just sort of like, damn it.
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 We're doing it all wrong.
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And this woman deserves a lot of credit.
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She's also an incredible business mind.
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I hope people do not deny that.
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There's just no questioning it.
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No, because if you're even considering like, well, what can she offer me in this?
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Your mind's about to be blown.
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There are so many things she told us during this interview that blew the lids off our cranium.
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 And to say nothing of the fact that we love Skims.
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She has designed the best underwear line in the history of the world.
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It's such a good underwear line.
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SPEAKER_02
It's so good.
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And Cozy's line.
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And I mean, that's just like a side note.
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We're both completely obsessed with it.
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And I get really pissy when the sizes I need are sold out.
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Oh, it comes up.
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It does.
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I had to bring it up.
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I'm asking hard hitting questions.
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But also, if you really think about her,
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 She designed undergarments because she cares about the way women feel.
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That's what that's telling me, right?
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You want to feel good in comfort and you want to feel sexy sometimes in the shape and also the sizes.
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They make from like XXS.
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 to like four or five X. And colors.
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And the shades.
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Yeah.
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No other company has ever done as many shades.
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And we talk about all this.
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I just, these are all details that I want people to remember when they're thinking about her so that it will obliterate any image you think you have of her because you don't really know her.
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So we are supported by Kim Kardashian West.
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 We are supported by is supported by Athletic Greens.
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It is a wonderful little powder.
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We use it at home.
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Dax is completely addicted to it.
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It is one of the only like supplements, things you can add to a water that I truly, sincerely feel different after I take it.
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 Whether I'm just like running around with the kids or whether I'm going to work out or whether I'm lazy all day, I just feel brighter and more awake.
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And I think it's because my body is getting those greens.
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More energy, for sure.
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0
SPEAKER_00
 we're gonna feel it oh
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SPEAKER_03
 First of all, I am so sorry that I am so late.
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SPEAKER_03
I've been late to something one time in my life and this is the second time.
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So I just want you guys to know that is not my style and it has ruined my entire day.
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Oh no, do not let it.
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We could care less.
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We feel honored that we're the second ones and as a person who is perpetually late.
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 And I recently switched from saying, I'm sorry I'm late to thank you for waiting for me.
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But still, I'm like, I feel your pain.
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SPEAKER_03
I do it all the time and I hate it all the time.
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With the kids, I get it.
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I don't know how I'm on time with kids.
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I leave my kids.
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I'm like, if you guys aren't on time, I'm leaving you because I won't be late.
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 It's hard.
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I've recently had this revelation because I used to really hate when people were late because I just took it as an offense, like personal offense, which of course I made it about myself.
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And I'm like, they don't care about my time.
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This is so frustrating.
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And then in the past, like three months, I've been late to
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 everything, absolutely everything.
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And I'm like, oh, it's not that.
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I do think it is like a disrespectful thing for time because everyone's so busy.
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And on Keeping Up With The Kardashians, I was late for the intro, just like running in just a few minutes.
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And someone yelled, Kim is always late.
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And so everyone thought I was late for the last like 15 years.
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And I was
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 definitely the one that was there on time.
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And that pissed me off so badly.
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Guess what?
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We just dispelled that rumor.
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SPEAKER_02
Seriously.
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SPEAKER_02
You're not late.
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SPEAKER_02
Wait, first of all, I'm not late.
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Did you know that Lily did my nails yesterday?
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SPEAKER_02
You know, the nail technician, Lily?
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I love Lily.
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She did my nails last.
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I've never bit.
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SPEAKER_02
 Can you even see this?
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I've never been this woman before.
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They're like an oval.
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Baby, they're an oval.
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First of all, I've never had like long nails in my life.
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And also they've got like pastel tips.
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And I am loving this woman.
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SPEAKER_02
I've never been her before, but I think I'm her now.
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SPEAKER_02
I just wanted to show you.
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
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I love Lily and they probably hate me because I only do short nude nails.
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SPEAKER_03
It's like I go between a peachier nude, a pinkier nude, a white nude, and that's it.
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SPEAKER_03
 Maybe every once in a while, I'll get crazy and do an opaque nude and they hate me because I'm so boring.
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SPEAKER_02
Well, Lily really bossed me around, which I love because I love when a strong woman like is like, no, you have to think outside the box.
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Because I was like, Lily, aren't these like too long?
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You saw my nails before.
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And like she goes, I'm not filing them anymore.
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And I was like, oh, oh, my God.
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SPEAKER_02
OK, let's go.
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SPEAKER_01
You do love a bossy woman.
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I love a bossy woman.
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SPEAKER_01
 Wait, this is just remind me of something immediately that is relevant.
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I think the perception of you is so different.
1
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 than the reality of you.
1
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Like, the reason you showed her these, you know, if we're just gonna get honest, is because you were, like, assuming that she would have nails like that.
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah, or because she's fancy.
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SPEAKER_01
Well, the reality is because Lily also does her nails.
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SPEAKER_01
Of course.
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But yes, but then she points out, like, oh, yeah, we have the same nail technician, but I don't do that kind of thing.
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SPEAKER_01
And that is a great point.
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Just, like, the perception versus the reality for you, I think, is so
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 off balance.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
I do think it is really off balance, but wait, I feel like I lied.
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SPEAKER_00
I feel like I have been doing a long clear nail, like every once in a while I go back and forth, back and forth, but then I have to type because I'm in school.
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SPEAKER_00
So like, if I have to do exams and stuff, I have to take them right off and then I put them right on.
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SPEAKER_00
 and to type it's a disaster.
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SPEAKER_00
So I do every once in a while do a long nail, still nude though.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
Still nude.
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SPEAKER_01
It is pretty fun.
1
SPEAKER_01
I just want to come out with a really hard hitting question first because I want to get this over with and I don't mean to make you uncomfortable, but why the hell are the kids skims always sold out?
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SPEAKER_01
 Okay.
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SPEAKER_00
Are they really?
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SPEAKER_00
Always.
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SPEAKER_01
Well, I will make sure that we send some to you guys.
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SPEAKER_01
I didn't want to start it off on a negative note because that's not why we're here.
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SPEAKER_01
Perception versus reality.
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SPEAKER_00
I do feel that.
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SPEAKER_00
It used to bother me more and now I'm just like focused on living my life that I don't really care about perception and I think that comes with just experience and age.
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SPEAKER_00
 to where you just don't care.
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SPEAKER_00
But I think a lot of the experiences in life that I have had, like I used to care so much about so many more things in this business and in this life that I just genuinely don't have the energy for, like I used to.
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SPEAKER_00
But there are, I mean, there's so many misconceptions, I think,
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SPEAKER_00
 When people meet me, they always, whether it's, oh my gosh, you're so small in person or, you know, whether it's like a physical thing or you're so short or, oh, wow, like you're smart or articulate or whatever they want to say, it's always some kind of.
1
SPEAKER_01
 funny comment, which also only speaks to the fact that they are admitting they have previously come to a conclusion about you prior to meeting you.
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SPEAKER_01
And that's is because you're very much in the media.
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SPEAKER_01
Like, I mean, a lot of people are, it's not like you're in any more, like you may get more coverage because people have somehow decided that you sell more for their media company.
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SPEAKER_01
So they cover you, but like, that's not on you.
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SPEAKER_00
Or the one thing that I noticed a lot is it'll say like,
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 Kim Kardashian's best friend, and it'll talk about someone or a story that has my name in it where I'm like, I haven't talked to this person.
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SPEAKER_00
And so I don't know that person.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I are like Kim Kardashian lookalike says did it and a completely different story.
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SPEAKER_00
And I'm like, what, like, just because they have brown hair, it's now a lookalike.
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SPEAKER_00
It's like a
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SPEAKER_00
 Running joke between me and one of my friends just like how many times can they?
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SPEAKER_00
Use my name with a story that has absolutely nothing to do with me.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it's almost a game their stuff They're using it because it would be it's clickbait and the more people that realize those things are clickbait and that you have to read a headline with like a modicum of intellect It's important to constantly point that out
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SPEAKER_01
 Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
I very much try not to have perceptions about anyone because I have had that experience a thousand times where I've then run into someone I've been like, oh, they were so different.
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SPEAKER_01
And I thankfully have never said that out loud, but then I think on, I'm like, they weren't so different.
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SPEAKER_01
That was my first experience with that person.
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SPEAKER_01
 Every other experience has been something that was crafted that I was exposed to.
1
SPEAKER_01
But with you, we have some mutual friends.
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SPEAKER_01
And because we care about a lot of the same causes, I will like love to scream this from the rooftop.
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SPEAKER_01
I have DM'd you a couple times because I love criminal justice reform.
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SPEAKER_01
And one of my best friends is a lawyer who works on a lot of death row cases of people that genuinely shouldn't be there.
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SPEAKER_01
 16 year old was in the car when something terrible happens now He's 40 and being put to death and it's like wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait guys and every single time I DM you and I'm like, hey Kim Not sure if you'll read this, but there's this guy or girl and my friend is working on the case Is there anything you think you could do you have responded like four times within five minutes?
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SPEAKER_01
I mean like give me the number of the lawyer working on the case I will make a call about it this afternoon and every time you do I'm like guys
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SPEAKER_01
 God damn, she is a stand-up woman.
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SPEAKER_01
Like, with kind.
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SPEAKER_01
The strongest moral compass.
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And I wish people knew that that's who you are as a human being.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, thank you.
1
SPEAKER_00
You actually have introduced me to some of the most fascinating people, some of the best attorneys that I've learned so much from.
1
SPEAKER_00
 You know, we've been able to be successful in certain situations and be unsuccessful in certain situations, but those unsuccessful cases that have been execution cases really have changed my life.
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SPEAKER_00
And I think change the perception.
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SPEAKER_00
 of a lot of people out there.
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SPEAKER_00
I mean, Brandon Bernard, I was really public about his case.
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SPEAKER_00
You brought that to me.
1
SPEAKER_00
And people asked me like, how do you get involved in a case?
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SPEAKER_00
And sometimes it's seeing something on the internet.
1
SPEAKER_00
Sometimes it's through friends.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, you bringing that to me, I really wanted to see what I can do.
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SPEAKER_00
And
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SPEAKER_00
 First of all, I just learned so much about myself.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I always say like, I wish that people would have seen my day that day.
1
SPEAKER_00
I learned so much about the system.
1
SPEAKER_00
I learned so much about humanity that day.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I was in my bathroom and I was making calls to governors all over and trying to figure out who we can get to support this, trying to talk to every attorney
1
SPEAKER_00
 having Brandon Bernard's last conversation, phone conversation with him was my call.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so I'm sitting there bawling and he's telling me not to cry.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I'm just like trying to get it together to be strong for him.
1
SPEAKER_00
And he's telling me about his, the purses that he's making and how they're all in his cell.
1
SPEAKER_00
And what is he going to do with them?
1
SPEAKER_00
And you know, would someone collect them?
1
SPEAKER_00
And he wants his family to have them and having these conversations.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Then I had to go into a SKIMS meeting.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so I was like trying on like SKIMS underwear and swimwear and all this stuff and doing fittings, but I'm like crying in the fitting, just like standing there, you know, and then I had to go into a makeup meeting and they're doing swatches all over me.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I'm just like, again, you know, finally get a glimmer of hope from,
1
SPEAKER_00
 some attorney and then some official and we're going back and forth and then finally get another call from Brandon that I never thought I'd get when he was moved to the chamber.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, then he was executed.
1
SPEAKER_00
It was the heaviest day.
1
SPEAKER_00
My kids are running in and they're asking why I'm crying.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it was the most emotional day.
1
SPEAKER_00
But the proud thing about that is the attention that we were able to get for him.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And just to show people that even though he didn't commit the crime, there are circumstances where as teenagers, people might make really bad choices.
1
SPEAKER_00
All teenagers.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, because their frontal lobes are not developed.
1
SPEAKER_02
No teenager has gotten through that without making a mistake.
1
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
1
SPEAKER_00
And other people's circumstances, it's just really eye opening that day for a lot of people that
1
SPEAKER_00
 had no idea that this stuff goes on in our system.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it was an extremely informative day.
1
SPEAKER_00
And for that, I'm grateful for the connection that you set me up with your friend.
1
SPEAKER_00
So thank you, Christy.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh, my God.
1
SPEAKER_01
Of course.
1
SPEAKER_01
Well, I'm, for one, glad that people who listen to this will see that like you pay attention
1
SPEAKER_01
 It's so easy to look at like anyone in the media and come to conclusions and be like, oh, a makeup company or an underwear company and think that that person is non-dimensional.
1
SPEAKER_01
But then this story exists.
1
SPEAKER_01
We both want people to know that because the whole point of doing we are supported by is because we're looking to other women to tell their multi-dimensional stories and how they succeeded.
1
SPEAKER_01
 what they failed at and what they learned.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I just come to the immediate like sort of aggressive conclusion where I'm like, yeah, anyone who wants to make a comment, why do you think she was able to get anyone anyone's attention?
1
SPEAKER_01
It's because of the underwear meeting.
1
SPEAKER_01
It's because of the swatches on her arm.
1
SPEAKER_01
Why do you think the governor takes her call, asshole?
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, because she's very successful.
1
SPEAKER_01
 And that is sometimes what it takes to get someone on the phone, and you're using it for, like, all good.
1
SPEAKER_02
And in the underwear meeting, the underwear is the broad spectrum of colors.
1
SPEAKER_02
Like, I love that so much.
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean, we love Skims so much.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh my gosh, we want to send you guys a package.
1
SPEAKER_02
 But when I first was introduced to it, the first thing I noted was like, the range of colors is unprecedented.
1
SPEAKER_02
You don't see it in other companies.
1
SPEAKER_02
And as someone with darker skin, I was like, fuck yes.
1
SPEAKER_02
Like, I don't have to wear like a light white, you know, bodysuit.
1
SPEAKER_02
We don't have the same bodysuit anymore because we shouldn't have the same bodysuit.
1
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
1
SPEAKER_00
 It's awesome.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I couldn't find shapewear that was my skin tone, let alone.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I used to take shapewear, cut it all up, put it in a bathtub or in a sink and put tea bags or coffee bags to get the color to dye onto the shapewear.
1
SPEAKER_00
So it would be somewhat my color.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, there were times when I couldn't get it to dry fast enough.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I'm wearing like wet shapewear under a dress.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And I thought, if I can't find my skin tone, how is my daughter going to grow up and find their skin tones?
1
SPEAKER_00
It was such a crazy, simple concept to me.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I thought, I just want to have the most inclusive shade range because I just hadn't seen that.
1
SPEAKER_01
First of all, I love that you're also arts and crafts and you're putting tea bags.
2
SPEAKER_01
 in like when in high school when we were asked to like write a letter like John Adams or something and you had to like tea stain the paper and like turn it in you know what I mean like on the projects I never of course I never thought to do that with I mean I never would have to because the shades out there are
2
SPEAKER_01
 white girl, slightly tan white girl, and then very dark black.
2
SPEAKER_01
And like, that's all that's existed until you were like, no, probably not.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I have the influence to do this.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I'm going to make something awesome out of it.
2
SPEAKER_02
You know, I was watching the Paris Hilton documentary recently, which I think you're in for a second.
2
SPEAKER_02
I loved that doc.
2
SPEAKER_02
 Again, like, who we think she is versus who she is in this documentary, I feel like, was so good at exposing that.
2
SPEAKER_02
But the most interesting part of that whole thing was when she was talking about the selfie.
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, she essentially invented the selfie.
2
SPEAKER_02
 And I was like, oh, my God, that is a person on earth walking around knowing that she kind of solely invented the selfie and it has done so much good.
2
SPEAKER_02
And it has, you know, of course, had some negative repercussions.
2
SPEAKER_02
And you're obviously in that category, too, with being so influential in
2
SPEAKER_02
 women's bodies and what you portray.
2
SPEAKER_02
And, you know, people look to you to show us what's beautiful.
2
SPEAKER_02
And that pressure, I just, like, wonder what that pressure is like.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, gosh.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I go back and forth.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, there is definitely the side of me that's like, be who you want to be and post what you want to post.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then there's the other side of me that's like, oh, I'm a mom.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I'm 40.
2
SPEAKER_00
I got to chill.
2
SPEAKER_00
 And, you know, I definitely wrestle with that idea in my mind.
2
SPEAKER_00
I'm grateful that my sisters and I like having all different body types.
2
SPEAKER_00
We've been able to show that and starting from working with designers years ago that would never lend me their clothes because they would never think that I would ever fit into them until, you know, now seeing designers make them that
2
SPEAKER_00
 actually are curvier for different body types, like makes me really proud.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think that there could be this over glamorized perception that, you know, Instagram is just not real life.
2
SPEAKER_00
And part of that's true, part of that's not true, depending on who you follow and what you choose to visually see.
2
SPEAKER_00
But it's also your best art
2
SPEAKER_00
 If you will to put out whatever you choose to put out so you know if you choose to put out photos of you looking natural and then if you choose to put photos that are more like artistic that you have taken with the best lighting.
2
SPEAKER_00
 That is your choice, you know, so I don't really judge either way.
2
SPEAKER_00
Do I think that it's, there's a lot of pressure.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think that I used to feel that way after I had my kids because I was not a good pregnant person.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was not a cute pregnant person.
2
SPEAKER_00
I did not like it.
2
SPEAKER_00
I hated it.
2
SPEAKER_00
I hate how I felt.
2
SPEAKER_00
I hate how I looked.
2
SPEAKER_00
 And I was so used to seeing, you know, my mom pregnant, my sister pregnant and everyone looking so cute and having these easy deliveries and life was great.
2
SPEAKER_00
And they'd snap right back.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like that wasn't me.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so the media really did like brutalize me over gaining a lot of weight.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it would be covers of magazines like me and Shamu and who wore it better.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it was like really, really crazy.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
I posted on my Instagram not too long ago, like all the articles I found, they would always compare me to Kate Middleton.
2
SPEAKER_00
So it would say like,
2
SPEAKER_00
 Kate, the waif, and Kim, the whale.
2
SPEAKER_00
The waif versus the whale.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it was, like, so nasty.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I can't even believe.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don't think that would really fly today.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don't think it would, but it killed my self-esteem.
2
SPEAKER_00
I know, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
I really can't believe that this was acceptable and that this was okay, but I would sit at home and cry all the time.
2
SPEAKER_00
 I had this condition called preeclampsia, and I didn't really know that I had it, but it's like over-swelling in your feet and your face.
2
SPEAKER_01
Anyone who's seen Downton Abbey, remember when she delivered she had preeclampsia.
2
SPEAKER_00
I haven't seen it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Me either.
2
SPEAKER_00
I've never seen it.
2
SPEAKER_01
She died.
2
SPEAKER_01
It's a very real serious condition in pregnancy.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_00
 I had to deliver six weeks early with like an emergency delivery.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then I had another condition called placenta accreta with both of my babies.
2
SPEAKER_00
It was insane.
2
SPEAKER_00
So anyway, it just changed how much I wanted to give.
2
SPEAKER_00
It changed me as a person.
2
SPEAKER_00
 And I felt so much pressure at the beginning and I wanted to start working out again.
2
SPEAKER_00
We didn't have like a gym or anything.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I was too embarrassed to go to a gym because I didn't want people to look at me, you know, trying to lose weight.
2
SPEAKER_00
I gained 70 pounds and I would sit in my mom's garage and it was literally probably 115 degrees in Calabasas in the summertime.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I'd have my daughter in a stroller.
2
SPEAKER_00
 And I'd sit her in there and I would just work out in the garage and try to do anything that I could until I did it.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then once I lost my weight and I felt better than ever and I was curvier than I was before, I just felt so good about myself.
2
SPEAKER_00
But it really did change me and it made me really pull back on what I shared and just how much I wanted to give because I saw how nasty everyone was and it felt so bad.
2
SPEAKER_01
 And we're dealing with the whole, like, Simone Biles thing about, you know, Liz Plank had posted this amazing thing about, like, Simone Biles didn't let us down, we let her down, because people are allowed to make their own choices, and it just gets my gourd so much that, like, anyone would choose to complain of, like, let's say they're like, oh, well, she always looks beautiful in great light.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, because we have individual liberty in this country.
2
SPEAKER_01
She can choose to just post pictures of her feet all day if she feels like it.
2
SPEAKER_01
 You're the one looking.
2
SPEAKER_01
And by the way, you can curate your Instagram if you feel less than when you're looking at anyone and it doesn't, cause like I look at you and I get inspired because I mean, as evidenced by the fact that the minute we started, I showed you my nails.
2
SPEAKER_01
Cause I was like, oh my God, Kim might like this.
2
SPEAKER_01
 But it's the comparison of like, I'm not good enough because of this that we need to just eliminate.
2
SPEAKER_01
But like you can also curate what you're looking at.
2
SPEAKER_01
And if you're looking at nasty stuff and you're comparing yourself, then you take it on.
2
SPEAKER_01
It's not your job, Kim, to like make sure everyone feels happy all the time.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like you're, you're right.
2
SPEAKER_01
You're allowed to post artistic pictures.
2
SPEAKER_01
You're allowed to do anything that you want.
2
SPEAKER_01
 I follow also a lot of women on Instagram who are like the bird's papaya, who's awesome.
2
SPEAKER_01
Or Victoria Garrick, who's like showing tons of stretch marks and being like, I love this about myself.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I'm like, yes.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I look at you and I'm like, yes.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like you can root for everyone.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, that is so true.
2
SPEAKER_00
So true.
2
SPEAKER_02
 But then the magazines that are showing like you versus Kate Middleton, they're infecting us.
2
SPEAKER_02
You know, they're infecting us with these comparisons.
2
SPEAKER_02
It's part of the whole society that wants us to look at you and say, like, well, I'm not her and I need to be like her.
2
SPEAKER_02
And it's you know, it's a problem.
2
SPEAKER_02
It's not your problem.
2
SPEAKER_02
It's everyone's problem.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
That's a big point.
2
SPEAKER_01
That's that's a big point we just made, guys.
2
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Digest.
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Great job.
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We did it.
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 Support comes from Chevrolet.
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Look, if you're a busy mom like me, you live in your car some days.
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Even getting one kid to all their activities seems like hurting cats.
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3
SPEAKER_01
 Okay, you're immensely successful.
3
SPEAKER_01
Thank you.
3
SPEAKER_01
When you started getting opportunities like everyone does, you turned it into something major.
3
SPEAKER_01
Did you like set goals for yourself?
3
SPEAKER_01
I want to do this by this age or I want to have this done by the end of the year from a business perspective?
3
SPEAKER_02
 Yeah, I did.
3
SPEAKER_02
I mean, once a year, my mom and I would always circle back and talk about what our goals were.
3
SPEAKER_02
We were very clear we would have like career goals, we would have like family goals, things we would want to do together as a family, and then we would have a materialistic goal list.
3
SPEAKER_02
 you know, hey, I would love to be able to save enough to be able to purchase this car.
3
SPEAKER_02
Or it could have been a ridiculous goal like, hey, I hope one day I can work with this photographer or this year would be the year I would work with this photographer, be in this magazine.
3
SPEAKER_02
And we always did that for the longest time.
3
SPEAKER_02
I haven't done it in a while.
3
SPEAKER_02
And at the beginning of our career, we would really try so many things.
3
SPEAKER_02
 I don't know if I would recommend that for everybody.
3
SPEAKER_02
We would try like the most conflicting things, you know, ad campaigns that would be doing a weight loss supplement.
3
SPEAKER_02
And then I do Carl's Jr.
3
SPEAKER_02
At the same time, it would be, I mean, I would be eating salads and stuff.
3
SPEAKER_02
You know, we'd have a cupcake store that we were opening.
3
SPEAKER_02
I mean, it was kind of all contradictory at one point.
3
SPEAKER_02
 But it taught us, I think that lesson, I always, I try not to really harp on anything that I had done in the past business wise, personally, anything, as long as I just, you know, don't do it again, if I didn't like it and learn from it.
3
SPEAKER_02
So I think that experience of trying so many things was preparing us.
3
SPEAKER_02
 for the place to get picky on who you choose as your partner and to not work with shady people.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I think that you don't realize that if you're going to be in business and if you're going to work with people for your own happiness in life, where I'm at now, I will never get into business with anybody that I just don't like.
3
SPEAKER_02
It seems really that simple, but like, I have to want to be around people that I'd want
3
SPEAKER_02
 to come into my home for Christmas Eve or to spend birthdays with, or it doesn't even have to be that intimate, but that you really truly believe that they're good people and that you trust them.
3
SPEAKER_02
And that whole experience of trying anything with any partner, with any, you know, distributor, we learned so much about who we don't want to work with.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I think that is really key to having long relationships, long partnerships,
3
SPEAKER_02
 I mean, I have just a no asshole policy across the board.
3
SPEAKER_02
My mom and I, like I'm in my office now, all my staff, like everyone genuinely gets along.
3
SPEAKER_02
If there's some crazy energy, it's just not going to work out.
3
SPEAKER_02
I want people to want to come to work.
3
SPEAKER_02
I want people to want to love what they do.
3
SPEAKER_02
I think we're in a time now where it's like.
3
SPEAKER_02
 Life is stressful in itself.
3
SPEAKER_02
Work shouldn't be.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I'm attracted to people that have a really strong work ethic, doesn't take the easy road out.
3
SPEAKER_02
And that's just who I want to surround my time with and my energy with.
3
SPEAKER_01
I have a similar way in that I like my situation with anyone that I'm working with to be very familial.
3
SPEAKER_01
And sometimes that is like looking at Monica, who's like, we do sleepovers together.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right.
3
SPEAKER_01
But we also work together.
3
SPEAKER_01
But like, she's my best friend.
3
SPEAKER_01
 But like for real, like I feel the same way.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like I have to know that your values and my values are aligned.
3
SPEAKER_01
So if you have to answer an email, if we're in a business endeavor together, I need to know that you're going to keep our values aligned.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I, by the way, feel like I made the exact same
3
SPEAKER_01
 I won't even say mistakes, but I did the exact same thing where I'm like, well, I probably shouldn't have done that.
3
SPEAKER_01
But like, how as a young person, are you even supposed to know that until you are allowed to make the mistake and then go like, oh yeah, that seems, yeah, you have to be able to learn.
3
SPEAKER_01
No one comes out of the womb knowing all this stuff.
3
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
3
SPEAKER_00
And no one's there to tell you, especially for you guys.
3
SPEAKER_02
And there's also a point where if something isn't as
3
SPEAKER_02
 cool or maybe in the industry, if we're trying to pick and choose like things to do at the end of the day, if you had fun doing it, I think that Trump's coolness, you know, like if it's just really, really something that you want to do or that you've just had the best time doing, it's like, Hey, if it's not like the coolest thing that I did, who cares?
3
SPEAKER_02
You want to stay on brand and you want to stay on, you know, character for sure.
3
SPEAKER_02
But if you.
3
SPEAKER_02
 have like an opportunity to do something and it just seems like a fun experience that you want to try, even if you never want to do it again, I think that's okay too in business.
3
SPEAKER_02
Like you can really pick and choose and design your life.
3
SPEAKER_02
And the good news is everyone forgets about it soon.
3
SPEAKER_02
Our media goes so fast that if you did something and you're like, Oh shit, I shouldn't have done that.
3
SPEAKER_02
Like, that's just kind of cheesy.
3
SPEAKER_02
Why did I choose to, you know, do that?
3
SPEAKER_02
Whatever post people forget tomorrow.
3
SPEAKER_02
So it really doesn't matter.
3
SPEAKER_01
 I just had this experience this past week because we shot Monica and I do this show called Momsplaining on Ellentube like Warner Digital does it and we make no money on it.
3
SPEAKER_01
But it is the most fun part of my year because the whole show was developed like be this little digital show talking about parenting through my lens, which is just like why do we always smell like urine and have avocado under our fingers?
3
SPEAKER_01
 And it's like these silly little five minute videos.
3
SPEAKER_01
And we do, I don't know, between five and ten a year.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it is the most happy week of my entire year.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it's not motivated by anything financial.
3
SPEAKER_00
No.
3
SPEAKER_00
Or for your image.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like it's for nothing other than just enjoyment.
3
SPEAKER_00
And loving the team because it's run by a really amazing group of women.
3
SPEAKER_01
And we just, because we just did it last week, like I came home, we were driving home in the car and I was like,
3
SPEAKER_01
 God, I love that experience because you're just plugging back into passion and creativity and something that makes your heart happy.
3
SPEAKER_02
That is so important.
3
SPEAKER_02
You should really like the environment that you're in and the work relationships that you have.
3
SPEAKER_02
I think in order to be sustainable for your own mental health and for your just livelihood.
3
SPEAKER_01
In regards to environments, like how real talk are you keeping this couch white?
3
SPEAKER_01
Are you keeping this couch white with four kids?
3
SPEAKER_01
 Because it's white.
3
SPEAKER_02
Well, I'm in my office right now.
3
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
3
SPEAKER_01
It is.
3
SPEAKER_02
It is.
3
SPEAKER_02
My whole house is cream, though.
3
SPEAKER_02
It really is.
3
SPEAKER_02
And honestly, the way that I look at things, people ask me that all the time.
3
SPEAKER_02
They're like, how on earth do you have an all cream house with four kids?
3
SPEAKER_02
 I don't care that much about stuff.
3
SPEAKER_02
It's stuff.
3
SPEAKER_02
So, I mean, obviously I want to have nice furniture and nice things, but even in this like super expensive, like Royer couch, if my kids were to come up with a Sharpie,
3
SPEAKER_02
 and destroy it.
3
SPEAKER_02
I honestly am just not the type.
3
SPEAKER_02
It's like, whatever.
3
SPEAKER_02
I don't encourage it, obviously.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I think I would like yell for a second, but it's not the end of the world.
3
SPEAKER_02
I mean, my daughter, her response would be like, it's art, mom.
3
SPEAKER_02
You know, I just made it better.
3
SPEAKER_02
And, you know, but none of them have ever done anything crazy like that.
3
SPEAKER_02
And because I'm not crazy.
3
SPEAKER_02
 I let him ride.
3
SPEAKER_02
I have this really long hallway.
3
SPEAKER_02
I have scooters at like both ends.
3
SPEAKER_02
I let them ride bikes in the house, scooters in the house.
3
SPEAKER_02
Like I let them go crazy.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I just, I think because I don't care and I don't put such an emphasis on it, nothing ever really happens.
3
SPEAKER_01
 I did see a really cool, I can't remember where I saw it, where they had a white couch and something had gotten on it like Sharpie.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so she was like, okay, great.
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, then everybody grabbed Sharpies and she had her kids decorate the entire couch with like different pictures and their name and let like, it looked like a very, very cool, like 1980s white backdrop with like all these cool Sharpie over it.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, that is so dope.
3
SPEAKER_01
And if you have a white couch and it gets Sharpie on it, like just give into the art.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like a Banksy.
3
SPEAKER_01
I agree with your daughter.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Turn it into a Banksy.
3
SPEAKER_00
 Yep.
3
SPEAKER_00
So we talked to Oprah a little bit about this, about likeability and people pleasing, that you just can't get past it being a girl growing up in this country, that you are told you need to be likeable.
4
SPEAKER_01
 And, you know, you need to say yes to people and, you know, you know, all the stuff that we're drilled into.
4
SPEAKER_01
And what I love about the show is everyone loves it.
4
SPEAKER_01
It's such a hit.
4
SPEAKER_01
But people like to outwardly, it's a reality show or it's a guilty pleasure.
4
SPEAKER_01
It's like, no, it's a pleasure.
4
SPEAKER_01
You enjoy it.
4
SPEAKER_01
 And I wonder how you feel about that, like knowing, like going into it, I'm sure, especially in your first couple seasons, like wanting to be likable and knowing that people are walking away.
4
SPEAKER_01
Some of them like, oh, we don't like them.
4
SPEAKER_01
How does it feel on that scale?
4
SPEAKER_01
I don't know.
4
SPEAKER_01
It's weird.
4
SPEAKER_00
I think in person.
4
SPEAKER_00
 I used to care so much about being likable and like meeting people.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I would always want people to walk away kind of like how you were saying, like, oh, you're kind of different than what I thought.
4
SPEAKER_00
I was always like that, like, oh, I can't wait to meet people because I kind of like when they go away saying like, oh, she's so different than what I would have imagined.
4
SPEAKER_00
On the show, when you are around your family all the time, I think you're at your like most comfortable self.
4
SPEAKER_00
You're in your home.
4
SPEAKER_00
 you take out your most aggression when it's the people you love the most around you.
4
SPEAKER_00
So it would be one side of us for sure.
4
SPEAKER_00
But then if you think about it, there was so many family members.
4
SPEAKER_00
The first like half of the show, it was only 30 minutes.
4
SPEAKER_00
So with commercials, that's like 22 minutes.
4
SPEAKER_00
And if there's 10 characters, you're getting like a few minutes of each person's personality, even when we went to an hour long.
4
SPEAKER_00
So that's like 44 minutes.
4
SPEAKER_00
 You're still getting a version of Courtney and Scott and what their relationship is.
4
SPEAKER_00
You're still getting a version of like me and Courtney every time we fight, but you're definitely not getting the, like Kim going to school version.
4
SPEAKER_00
Cause that's just boring.
4
SPEAKER_00
Or you're definitely not getting, you know, me and Courtney and how we've come to be.
4
SPEAKER_00
 so understanding of each other more so than any other family member, because that's kind of boring, you know, so it's like, I used to care about the likeability, but I would edit the episodes.
4
SPEAKER_00
So I would, you know, help produce them.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so I was really good at taking myself out of the situation and saying like, okay, this is
4
SPEAKER_00
 a huge fight that me and Courtney just had.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I think it's kind of important, even though I hate how I look and I look like a lunatic, I think that it's important.
4
SPEAKER_00
First of all, it's what really happened.
4
SPEAKER_00
But second of all, I'm sure other siblings feel the same way.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I'm okay to take the like bitch of the week because that was a side of me and it's okay.
4
SPEAKER_00
You know, like
4
SPEAKER_00
 The people that know me know me.
4
SPEAKER_00
I think number one, the audience would enjoy seeing that side of us, you know, as a producer that way.
4
SPEAKER_00
I was really good at like taking myself out where sometimes it would get really emotional for people when the family was like editing it.
4
SPEAKER_00
I got to a point and maybe being in a relationship with Kanye for, you know, a decade and someone that absolutely didn't care about likeability factor or what any perception of him was, as long as he was true to himself,
4
SPEAKER_00
 that taught me so much in the best way of just being me and living in the moment.
4
SPEAKER_00
And you don't have to please everyone, as long as I'm myself and as long as I'm doing it the way that I want to do, like you have one life and you're living it for you.
4
SPEAKER_00
That taught me to just, I think, be more confident in myself and truly not care as much of what other people thought.
4
SPEAKER_00
I'm particularly a person
4
SPEAKER_00
 that's probably more vain than the average person, probably why I love to curate my Instagram and love to take so many photos, but I became comfortable in that as well.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, but that's me and that's what I want to post.
4
SPEAKER_00
And this is what I want to do more so for myself, not really for an image of, oh my God, let me see who's commenting.
4
SPEAKER_00
Let me see who's liking it.
4
SPEAKER_00
I got to a place where I really didn't care.
4
SPEAKER_00
I used to be such a people pleaser.
4
SPEAKER_00
 And then when I got to just learn to please myself, no matter what that meant to other people, still being mindful, still being respectful, still being cautious of like other people's feelings and emotions around me.
4
SPEAKER_00
I would never want to offend anyone, but just being myself first.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
 I think was something that I learned over time, whether it's from being so close to someone that really felt that way so genuinely to their core, whether it's age, whether it's becoming a mom, experiences, probably all kind of wrapped up in one.
4
SPEAKER_00
I read this article.
4
SPEAKER_00
It was like a Vanity Fair article that I loved so much.
4
SPEAKER_00
Talked about the evolution of Keeping Up With The Kardashians and said that when we started, it was so much about
4
SPEAKER_00
 us proving that we wanted to be famous and us wanting to be famous, which was so true.
4
SPEAKER_00
I have no problem admitting or saying that that was my goal.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like that's what I wanted.
4
SPEAKER_00
I really wanted to be on a TV show.
4
SPEAKER_00
I really wanted to be famous.
4
SPEAKER_00
My goals, when we were talking about goals earlier, were sillier goals.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like I want to make it in
4
SPEAKER_00
 you know, I remember this like us weekly fashion spread.
4
SPEAKER_00
I would think that would be so cool.
4
SPEAKER_00
You know, just sillier things.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then towards the end, people kind of tuned in for that, like fascination of like, Oh, you know, they're so out there and they're so like desperate to be famous or whatever.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then
4
SPEAKER_00
 It kind of turned to this, oh, we're tuning in to kind of see, even though they have kind of made it, but like how normal they are.
4
SPEAKER_00
And like, oh, they're just still like a normal family, like the roles of what we wanted and who we are just kind of like flips into why people would tune in.
4
SPEAKER_00
The guy wrote it so much better than I can explain it.
4
SPEAKER_00
 It was just so true to like the evolution of having kids, having life experiences that shake you to your core, that change you, that make you look at life differently to where you can start off in your career.
4
SPEAKER_00
 wanting one thing and having certain goals and then completely transforming that into wanting something totally different in your life and out of your life.
4
SPEAKER_00
And that is totally okay to change your mind and to want different things and to start off
4
SPEAKER_00
 being a people pleaser into ending up not being a people pleaser.
4
SPEAKER_00
Just because you're not doesn't mean you're an asshole.
4
SPEAKER_00
It means that you set boundaries.
4
SPEAKER_00
I totally sound like Courtney right now talking about boundaries.
4
SPEAKER_02
We like boundaries.
4
SPEAKER_02
I love this.
4
SPEAKER_02
So I'm connecting on such a
4
SPEAKER_02
 like visceral level that like literally my mouth is filling up a spit like I'm having like a bot because no but because like people probably would look I have like a different representation or brand and I'm sure that people put me in a category as well but like I a hundred percent I'm in tune with you like the idea when I thought I might be in Us Weekly at the you know the beginning of my career
4
SPEAKER_02
 was mind boggling.
4
SPEAKER_02
I was so excited and would check it and see because if I'm looking back and being super honest and not revisionist history, it was one of my goals.
4
SPEAKER_02
And it's like also okay that that was maybe a super, if now I look at it like a superficial goal, like yeah, and now my goals have changed.
4
SPEAKER_00
But isn't it the best feeling when they do change and when you get to that place, like
4
SPEAKER_00
 Every phase is fine and every phase is fun.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I look back and I have the best memories ever of that time.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like it was so much fun to know, oh my God, I got hair and makeup.
4
SPEAKER_00
I have to go to Koi.
4
SPEAKER_00
I have to go to the Ivy.
4
SPEAKER_00
I have to be seen.
4
SPEAKER_00
 It was those times before kids and before what was important is so different.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
What my group chats would have been about years ago are so different now, and it's fun.
4
SPEAKER_02
But being exposed to someone who's not a people pleaser, because I'm also married to definitely whatever the opposite of a people pleaser is, who's someone who says to me nightly, okay, reminder, the only person you need to compare yourself to is who you were yesterday.
4
SPEAKER_02
 That kind of knowledge being dropped on me all the time has definitely... Nightly.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
It infected my way of being to go, oh yeah, I appear like this very nice, kind, giving girl.
4
SPEAKER_02
And what's underneath is I am an immense people pleaser who is not very secure, who is trying to do all these things because I'm scared people won't like me.
4
SPEAKER_01
 And who cares if everyone likes you if you don't like you?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
That is why do we have to be told that?
4
SPEAKER_01
It's unbelievable.
4
SPEAKER_01
Right.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
But it's the truth in that it's OK that your identity is flexible.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think that's so important to take away because we get so stuck in our identities and it's like, I'm this and I guess I'm this for life.
4
SPEAKER_01
And this is the only thing I can ever want.
4
SPEAKER_01
And you're doing yourself a disservice.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, and with labels.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, yesterday I was photographed like eating
4
SPEAKER_00
 I don't know, a burger or something at a fast food restaurant.
4
SPEAKER_00
And, you know, I saw the comments and like, I thought you were vegan.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I'm like, you know what?
4
SPEAKER_00
I'm a flexitarian.
4
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
4
SPEAKER_00
I eat vegan when I'm at home and that is okay.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I eat 90% of the time vegan.
4
SPEAKER_00
And if you only knew my struggle, I went and I took a bite of a burger and I was like, you know what?
4
SPEAKER_00
 I don't like this and I didn't have more than one bite and that's okay but I'm like the fact that you're stuck to these labels didn't feel right to me so I was like I'm okay but if you didn't try and if you didn't go there then you wouldn't know.
4
SPEAKER_00
It seems so simple.
4
SPEAKER_02
And also piece of advice for anyone commenting, I beg you not
5
SPEAKER_01
 to worry about whether or not Kim is a vegan or not.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
That is not the priority of whatever is in your life.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like, do literally anything else.
5
SPEAKER_01
That is a complete waste of work.
5
SPEAKER_01
I know.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
It was ridiculous.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_02
People are using you as a distraction from their own issues and their own problems.
5
SPEAKER_02
They need to worry about the burger because they can't worry about their own shit.
5
SPEAKER_01
Great point, Monica.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
 we are supported by is supported by Grove.
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It's going to help.
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So this is great.
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It's really hard to ship that stuff.
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 especially with like the cardboard around it.
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We Are Supported By is supported by one of my very faves, Audible.
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I love Audible.
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SPEAKER_01
I listen to Audible all the time.
5
SPEAKER_01
What are you listening to right now?
5
SPEAKER_01
 I'm finishing up Jonathan Haidt's Coddling of the American Mind.
5
SPEAKER_01
Nice.
5
SPEAKER_01
And it's blowing my little coddled mind.
5
SPEAKER_02
It's so easy to use, which I love.
5
SPEAKER_02
And I feel like all the people we talk to, they all have books and I want to consume it all.
5
SPEAKER_02
 But it's hard to physically read at this point.
5
SPEAKER_02
Everyone's on the move and it's like you can listen in your car.
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SPEAKER_01
It's so nice.
5
SPEAKER_01
I never remember to put a book in my bag.
5
SPEAKER_01
I'm always trying to travel lighter.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I have all of the books I want to read at my fingertips when I can pop my earphones in.
5
SPEAKER_01
They actually give you great recommendations because I will sometimes not be paying attention and a new Malcolm Gladwell book will come out.
5
SPEAKER_01
 And I'll be like, oh, I want to read that one.
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SPEAKER_01
It will remind me.
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And new members can try Audible for 30 days for free, which is amazing.
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And you get one credit every month, good for any title and their premium selection.
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It can be installed on all smartphones and tablets.
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It's really, really easy to use.
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Visit audible.com slash supported or text supported to 500-500.
5
SPEAKER_01
 Look, we're talking about your success, how you've built it.
5
SPEAKER_01
Now, you certainly don't need any more money, but you're studying to be a lawyer.
5
SPEAKER_01
You could absolutely choose to sit on that couch all day with your feet up and, you know, be fed grapes and watch TV, but you don't.
5
SPEAKER_01
 So like, what's, you know, the, the, the wisdom coming into your life at an older age and having four kids I love.
5
SPEAKER_01
Can you talk a little bit more about like, what made you find this sense of purpose of like, oh yeah, I'm going to take the, one of the hardest tests in the world and try to become a lawyer.
5
SPEAKER_00
It really is a struggle for me because it does take a lot of time away from my kids.
5
SPEAKER_00
 And so I really had to make a decision.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I have had nights where my kids are crying saying, please don't do this anymore.
5
SPEAKER_00
Please don't become a lawyer.
5
SPEAKER_00
You're too busy.
5
SPEAKER_00
You're taking too much time away.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I've had to sit them down and say, I'd love you to be in the room with me.
5
SPEAKER_00
I'd love you to be with me on this journey.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I talked to them about cases.
5
SPEAKER_00
They've been in the room when I've been crying over cases and
5
SPEAKER_00
 I said, you know, one day you will understand, and I want you to be proud of me.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I want you to do whatever you want to do when you grow up.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I want you to give me the room and the power.
5
SPEAKER_00
And they fully understood it when I really like explained it to them in that way.
5
SPEAKER_00
But it was just really simple.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I've always been super interested.
5
SPEAKER_00
My dad was a lawyer.
5
SPEAKER_00
I used to ask him tons of questions all the time.
5
SPEAKER_00
Him and I talked about me going to law school.
5
SPEAKER_00
You know, he did say that he thinks that it would really stress me out and that I would
5
SPEAKER_00
 probably age a lot quicker than I wanted to, you know, at the time when we talked about it, when I was in my early twenties.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I love that I was able to have those conversations with my dad of someone that I truly respected, that was an attorney.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I learned a lot from him, but I also just felt super naive that I just didn't know about so much in our system.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like I actually had no idea that it was so fucked up.
5
SPEAKER_00
And once I started to work on cases and
5
SPEAKER_00
 see that I can make a difference and had influence.
5
SPEAKER_00
I really didn't want to stop at just where I was at.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then I felt like I was always asking my attorney friends, texting them all the time.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like, what does this mean?
5
SPEAKER_00
Or what does this mean?
5
SPEAKER_00
Or I didn't know what certain words were.
5
SPEAKER_00
Everyone uses all these abbreviations.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was just like, what the fuck does that mean?
5
SPEAKER_00
Or what, you know, you have to start somewhere.
5
SPEAKER_00
You have to really be like, like, I remember in one of my first meetings,
5
SPEAKER_00
 I was in like the Roosevelt room with all of these people in a clemency meeting.
5
SPEAKER_00
We're sitting there and everyone's dropping all these abbreviations.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I'm like, literally texting my attorney across from me.
5
SPEAKER_00
I'm like, what's the DOJ, you know, like super simple things, you know?
5
SPEAKER_00
And I just felt so embarrassed, but I'm like, I'm going to ask, I'm not going to not ask and just sit here acting like I know everything.
5
SPEAKER_00
 I want to be able to know as much as possible so I can come in and not have to like text my attorney mentor on the side what all of these things mean.
5
SPEAKER_00
She said to me, because her story is pretty crazy, her husband at the time, she was like in
5
SPEAKER_00
 college pregnant and her husband got convicted of a drug charge and was sentenced to like 15 years.
5
SPEAKER_00
And she had to figure it all out and put herself through college with a baby, put herself through law school.
5
SPEAKER_00
And she's like, I was the same way.
5
SPEAKER_00
I didn't know anything.
5
SPEAKER_00
I was asking everything.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I think you have to start with not being embarrassed to ask the most simple questions.
5
SPEAKER_00
If you want to know, and you want to know bad enough, you'll figure it out.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it was just that simple for me.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like I want to know,
5
SPEAKER_00
 and I'm into it.
5
SPEAKER_00
I would say, I don't know if it's like an age thing, like my retention of having to know every single definition of anything in law school is a lot harder and I don't retain as much, but everything that I'm studying so far, whether it's contracts or personal injury law or even crim law, I'm living it.
5
SPEAKER_00
I have to do contracts all the time.
5
SPEAKER_00
I have to know things about personal injury with my employees and
5
SPEAKER_00
 I'm living it.
5
SPEAKER_00
So if I were to have done it back in high school and right into college, yeah, I probably would have been able to retain more, but I wouldn't have understood it the way that I do now.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I appreciate it so much more now.
5
SPEAKER_00
I think this was just like my journey and my path of what I was supposed to do.
5
SPEAKER_00
And if I did not pass this bar, I find out in a few days, I am really going to question myself because I think I did well.
5
SPEAKER_00
So if I don't pass, I'm going to be so
5
SPEAKER_00
 I'm fucking pissed.
5
SPEAKER_00
Oh my gosh.
5
SPEAKER_01
You have no idea.
5
SPEAKER_01
Fingers crossed.
5
SPEAKER_01
I know.
5
SPEAKER_01
When you pass, what are your hopes?
5
SPEAKER_01
What do you want to do with it?
5
SPEAKER_00
 I really hope to, first of all, so many incarcerated people that I've met are like the smartest people ever that would be some of the best attorneys.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I really hope that I could start a firm that would employ a lot of these people that will really help, whether they have their degree or not, you know, to really help with all the paperwork and help write everything that we would need in a firm.
5
SPEAKER_00
I just think it would be super powerful to have an amazing firm with some of the smartest people just to help
5
SPEAKER_00
 write bills, get people out, and just really focus on justice reform.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, so far, all my family, they'll ask me certain questions or look over this contract.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I'm like, guys, I don't have time.
5
SPEAKER_00
We're still going to have attorneys on deck because I'm not going to be reading all your contracts and negotiating shit for you.
5
SPEAKER_00
That is what your attorneys are for.
5
SPEAKER_01
 You seem to be focused on the human being at the other end because you keep gravitating towards criminal justice reform.
5
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, for sure.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, me just being so naive.
5
SPEAKER_00
I remember the first case that I ever looked at was Alice Johnson.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, what is it?
5
SPEAKER_00
Like, could she not afford an attorney?
5
SPEAKER_00
Did she not have a good attorney?
5
SPEAKER_00
I didn't know about the system.
5
SPEAKER_00
I was just like, can I help her out?
5
SPEAKER_00
Like thinking it was just a financial thing.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was so naive to think that.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then I dug deeper and was like,
5
SPEAKER_00
 Oh shit, there's like so much unraveling.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like it's, it's overwhelming how messed up everything is and just how deep it really goes.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it really is so much about like this person or the circumstance and it just shouldn't be that way.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so if I can help change that in any way, my life is
6
SPEAKER_00
 been so much about me.
6
SPEAKER_00
Everything is me, me, me.
6
SPEAKER_00
You get to a point where it's like, okay, enough about me.
6
SPEAKER_00
What else can I do?
6
SPEAKER_00
What can I do to really help people?
6
SPEAKER_00
And that makes me feel happy.
6
SPEAKER_00
So that's what I want to do is more justice reform to really help
6
SPEAKER_00
 change like the laws and the bills and all starting with, I love storytelling in anything that I do, whether it's like a Skims launch or a makeup collection.
6
SPEAKER_00
So I believe that ultimately people in society just want to feel safe.
6
SPEAKER_00
If they hear someone's been in jail for 20 something years, they must have done something so bad.
6
SPEAKER_00
 When like Alice Johnson, it's like, okay, first time nonviolent drug offense.
6
SPEAKER_00
Cause she answered a telephone that like, she really had no idea what was going on.
6
SPEAKER_00
Gets the same sentence as Charles Manson.
6
SPEAKER_00
That doesn't make sense.
6
SPEAKER_00
 Get real, guys.
6
SPEAKER_00
It's broken.
6
SPEAKER_00
I just want to story tell and show this great grandmother that is the sweetest human being on the planet, one of the smartest women that I've ever met, give her a chance and to show the public like, hey guys, this isn't Charles Manson.
6
SPEAKER_00
 Like, let's tell her story.
6
SPEAKER_00
Let's dig deep.
6
SPEAKER_00
Because if you look at it on paper, it's not going to read the same way.
6
SPEAKER_00
So my goal was just, hey, I know it's just one case, and we have bills that will actually change the law that will help so many more people.
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But we've got to start with, like, sharing people's stories and really bringing this to society so ultimately they feel safe.
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 That is so smart because there are 3,278 people serving life sentences without parole for a nonviolent offense.
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That's so crazy.
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When I first heard about this, like what you were doing with Alice Johnson, some people who did not vote for President Trump and they were like, I can't believe she's meeting with Trump.
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I have certain ideas about him.
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I immediately went, wait a minute.
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If I thought I could save someone's life, I would meet with the devil himself.
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 if I would be like, let's talk about that.
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You know what I mean?
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Like, it doesn't matter who you're meeting with.
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It matters what you're there doing.
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And what I find so interesting about this parallel between you and Alice, if you look her up on Wikipedia, there's one title that comes up, American Convicted Criminal.
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That's the one title.
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And it's a box.
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And she also, here's the thing though, she's made, during her prison sentence,
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 made speeches at Yale, she became an ordained minister, she became a certified hospice worker, she wrote plays.
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Like, this woman is not one thing.
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And I'm so grateful that you were exposed to her case and were able to get it done because she has this quote that I read and she said, I will not allow the past to become the sum of who I am.
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 So true.
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I was like so angry when I, when I wikied her and it just came up, American convicted criminal.
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I'm like, no, no, this grandmother, great grandmother now is so much more than that.
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And how dare we put that title on her?
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How dare we box her into that?
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Wow.
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Yeah.
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That's so crazy.
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Especially, I mean, if you know her, she's one of the best people I've ever met.
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Really, truly the best.
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And I'm so proud of her for just being so open and sharing her story.
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 And I'm so, so, so happy that she came into my life.
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She taught me so much just about humanity and about life and about the system.
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And when she got out, I saw her and she hadn't seen an iPhone, you know, like really simple things like.
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 And I mean, Snapchat, I remember I mentioned that to her and she was like, it was so foreign to her.
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And… Filters.
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Did you like put one of the weird like alligator filters on her head and she was like, what is happening?
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Yeah.
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It was so interesting just to see how different her life was the last time she was free.
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The simple things that we take for granted.
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Just off of, you know, if you know her backstory and you just… People really don't know people's backstories.
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 And that really breaks my heart just to know that she was just trying to do anything to make money.
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Her son just had died.
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Her husband had left her high and dry with five kids.
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And she just answered a telephone.
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She didn't even know for what.
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You know, she knew it was shady, but she didn't want to ask.
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She didn't know any details.
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And all the people that were really heavily involved in this drug situation were in and out.
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And she got a life sentence on a first-time offense.
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 Do you know who Susan Burton is by chance?
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She runs an organization out here called A New Way of Life.
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She has an unbelievable book called Becoming Miss Burton that is a lot to read because it talks about her childhood and how much abuse she had to
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 overcome.
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And her son, when he was five, died in a sort of essentially a hit and run by a police officer.
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And she was just completely torn up.
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She sort of went back to experimenting with drugs.
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She was on and off drugs for a while.
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She was in and out of jail six times.
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When she finally got out the sixth time, she was like, enough.
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And this woman just
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 Phoenixed herself just to go.
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I don't want to do this anymore.
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I'm going to go to a rehab She went to a rehab like an all-white rehab in like Santa Monica and she looked around and she was like curious Why isn't this available in my neighborhood?
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So she started meeting people women at the bus station where they were dropped off from incarceration
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 And she would walk up to them and she would say, you don't know me?
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My name is Susan.
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I have two small bedrooms in my house.
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Would you like to come get your life back together?
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And she would bring these women back into her home.
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And she now has this nonprofit called A New Way of Life.
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SPEAKER_02
And she takes in formerly incarcerated women.
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SPEAKER_02
And exactly that, she teaches them about an iPhone.
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SPEAKER_02
She helps them get a cell phone when they get out.
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Or if it's shorter offenses and there's drugs involved, she'll get them into rehab.
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A lot of them work for the organization.
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A lot of them help get their kids back.
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 Because they've all had their kids taken away for the time.
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And she is incredible.
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She is.
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What's her name?
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Susan Burton.
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I'll make sure you have the info about it, and I'll send you her book.
6
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But she's incredible.
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But yeah, there are some women who no matter what happens, because Alice is the same, the resilience factor is unquantifiable.
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 Because I feel like if something like that happened to me, like, I would literally just be in my cell crying.
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Like, I can't imagine the kind of— And almost 25 years later, I'm working on a case with a guy that's been in for over 40 years.
6
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I've never met anyone like him that is so hopeful after been in longer than I was alive.
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You know, I couldn't imagine.
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 But the resilience thread is relevant because there's a parallel in that she's not an American convict.
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She's a playwright.
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She's this.
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She's this.
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And if you saw on paper just a list of all the things, you wouldn't be able to put it in a box.
6
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 When I was doing a little research on you, I mean, everyone already knows all this stuff, but like, when I have it listed out here, like, your father passed away, your mom's best friend was murdered, you know, you had to watch the horrible trial, you were robbed, you witnessed a transition within your household, a divorce, like,
6
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 That's a lot for one person.
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SPEAKER_01
And if someone saw that list and didn't know it was you, there would just be like an intense amount of compassion and, oh my gosh, what a life, oh my gosh.
6
SPEAKER_01
But when they know it's you, they put it in a different box.
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SPEAKER_01
And I just want to encourage everyone to like know the backstory, know that everyone has a list.
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SPEAKER_00
Thank you.
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I mean, I think that I have never gotten stuck
6
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 in anything that has ever happened or anything that I've ever experienced.
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SPEAKER_00
And I don't know why.
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SPEAKER_00
The only thing that I can say is I'm so grateful for my family just because we're all there together.
6
SPEAKER_00
You know, it's like in someone's journey into Hollywood or into fame, you usually don't experience that with every single family member at the same exact time.
6
SPEAKER_00
 So whether it would be calling someone and being like, oh my God, I just got this work gig.
6
SPEAKER_00
How cool, I just made X amount of money or got this offer.
6
SPEAKER_00
I never thought in a bazillion years when I couldn't pay my rent in my place that I would ever get this.
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SPEAKER_00
The same family member is going through the same exact thing at the same time.
6
SPEAKER_00
Or even if it's something silly, it's like, oh my God, I got invited to this event.
6
SPEAKER_00
And whoever thought we would be invited or, oh my God, I just met this,
6
SPEAKER_00
 person how cool like someone we might have been a fan of before and then you know we all kind of have that experience together where each one of us could call each other which is like just magical and rare and like no one else on the planet would ever understand it yeah but
6
SPEAKER_00
 It's helped us stay grounded.
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SPEAKER_00
It's helped us stay focused and just been each other's best like therapist and backbone and all of the above.
6
SPEAKER_00
So I think it's just like we're in a really unique situation where you might see the trauma and wonder like, how did they get through that?
6
SPEAKER_00
Like, well, we really do have each other, which I think has saved us.
6
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 and really helped.
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And it doesn't mean that we don't have our moments or breakdown or feel it.
6
SPEAKER_00
You know, I think people would assume everything's on the show.
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SPEAKER_00
I mean, there was a time when I would meet up with people and they would be like, is a camera here?
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SPEAKER_00
And I'd be like,
7
SPEAKER_00
 no, what are you talking about?
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We have a full other life.
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You know, when we're on camera, we open everything and we share everything, but there's things that aren't for that too.
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And there's things for our sanity that we keep for ourselves.
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SPEAKER_00
There's a strategy to it.
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SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
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I'm pretty proud of all of us for being true to our boundaries and our limits and knowing that if something is affecting us to give that person time and to
7
SPEAKER_00
 be supportive to get through that.
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SPEAKER_00
And I just look at every experience, whether it's like my robbery, I mean, I'm just such a different person.
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SPEAKER_00
And the things that I value now after that experience are completely different.
7
SPEAKER_00
Simply like material things don't mean anything to me.
7
SPEAKER_00
Maybe I would have been an absolute raging lunatic if my kid was walking down my White House with a Sharpie then, you know, before that experience.
7
SPEAKER_00
 Now it's like, it's life and who cares?
7
SPEAKER_00
And I'm not going to put a value on my material things.
7
SPEAKER_00
I never thought I'd say this, like I'll wear fake jewelry.
7
SPEAKER_00
Like I don't care.
7
SPEAKER_00
You know, I actually don't care.
7
SPEAKER_00
I won't put a value or on expensive things like that.
7
SPEAKER_00
It won't ever mean so much to me.
7
SPEAKER_00
I want to sleep at night knowing that like, I have nothing that anyone could ever take that would ever mean anything to me.
7
SPEAKER_00
 you know, and just little things like that.
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SPEAKER_00
You couldn't have told me five years ago that I wouldn't have cared to have like the coolest car, the coolest jewelry, like that defined who I was.
7
SPEAKER_00
I thought if I don't have the, whatever the most popular thing is, then I'm not shit.
7
SPEAKER_00
Like I really thought that.
7
SPEAKER_00
 Obviously, we don't want these traumatizing experiences, but I work through them.
7
SPEAKER_00
I get through them.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I try to be as healthy as I can for my kids and for my family.
7
SPEAKER_00
So if I'm feeling it, I feel it.
7
SPEAKER_00
And then I move on.
7
SPEAKER_00
And if it comes back and I need to feel it again, I'll do that.
7
SPEAKER_00
But I try not to live
7
SPEAKER_00
 in the past except for taking away the best experiences from that bad situation.
7
SPEAKER_01
I love that you're pointing out the familial importance here because when they study the ACE scores of people, the adverse childhood experiences where you can sort of
7
SPEAKER_01
 estimate whether or not someone might probably have an addiction when they're older or probably have, you know, some PTSD issues when they're older.
7
SPEAKER_01
And my score is very low.
7
SPEAKER_01
Dax's ACE score is very high.
7
SPEAKER_01
The one thing they do say about that in all of these books, body keeps the score and the new one that Oprah wrote, you know, what happened to you?
7
SPEAKER_01
If you have one person as a child that you trust,
7
SPEAKER_01
 and look to and it's real.
7
SPEAKER_01
You can get through it.
7
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
7
SPEAKER_01
And like Oprah said that, like literally if you were to actually read what happened to her as a child and as a young woman, nothing could possibly be more traumatizing.
7
SPEAKER_01
But she had a teacher who looked at her like she was like a bright shining star and took time with her and said, what do you need?
7
SPEAKER_01
How can I help you?
7
SPEAKER_01
How can I teach you?
7
SPEAKER_01
I am here for you.
7
SPEAKER_01
And she credits that teacher
7
SPEAKER_01
 for like the entirety of her success.
7
SPEAKER_01
So you just have to have one person, but this idea of your family being so close probably has something to do with like your resilience and ability to process this because you guys do have such great relationships.
7
SPEAKER_00
We really do.
7
SPEAKER_00
We always say that like, you know, you obviously don't choose your family, but we all think that we chose each other up above and chose to live this life together and wanted to be together and like,
7
SPEAKER_00
 We all pretty much live in the same gated community.
7
SPEAKER_00
We're like sickly obsessed with each other.
7
SPEAKER_00
And it's like, you know, it's, it's a lot, but we really genuinely are.
7
SPEAKER_00
We love hanging out.
7
SPEAKER_00
We love always being together.
7
SPEAKER_00
So I really do credit them for everything.
7
SPEAKER_02
 It's lovely.
7
SPEAKER_01
You gave us so much of your time.
7
SPEAKER_00
Thank you so much.
7
SPEAKER_01
This was spectacular.
7
SPEAKER_01
Thank you so, so much for being on here.
7
SPEAKER_00
Oh my gosh, you're so welcome.
7
SPEAKER_00
You are so, so welcome.
7
SPEAKER_02
We want to do it again or just come over.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, probably just come over and hang out with us.
7
SPEAKER_00
Come over.
7
SPEAKER_01
 Come over, just don't bring a Sharpie.
7
SPEAKER_01
I will not bring any Sharpies.
7
SPEAKER_01
You know, I'm not even mad anymore about the kids' skims.
7
SPEAKER_01
I was apoplectic when I came in here.
7
SPEAKER_00
Oh, you were livid about that.
7
SPEAKER_01
Oh, I'll make sure that you get them.
7
SPEAKER_01
They're always sold out.
7
SPEAKER_00
Don't worry.
7
SPEAKER_01
And I was mad.
7
SPEAKER_01
Now I'm not mad anymore at all.
7
SPEAKER_01
I just have nothing but love.
7
SPEAKER_01
You ooze so much confidence and compassion and composure.
7
SPEAKER_01
And God, what a big brain you have to have accomplished all of this, especially
7
SPEAKER_01
 with this attitude and all that's on your shoulders.
7
SPEAKER_01
What a role model.
7
SPEAKER_01
What a role model.
7
SPEAKER_01
We are so excited to acknowledge your phoenix.
7
SPEAKER_00
Thank you guys.
7
SPEAKER_00
You guys are getting even more skims after those compliments.
7
SPEAKER_00
That's the goal.
7
SPEAKER_00
I'll send you whatever you want.
7
SPEAKER_00
Thanks, you guys.
7
SPEAKER_00
Have a good rest of your day.
7
SPEAKER_00
Thank you.
7
SPEAKER_00
Thank you.
7
SPEAKER_00
You too.
7
SPEAKER_00
Okay, bye guys.
7
SPEAKER_02
 The glass.