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My name is Lee Hawkins.
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I ve been a journalist for over 25 years.
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On my new podcast, What Happened in Alabama, I get answers to some of the hardest questions about how things came to be for many black Americans and the truth that must come before any reconciliation can happen.
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I investigate my family history, my upbringing in Minnesota, and my father s painful nightmares about growing up in Alabama.
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What Happened in Alabama is a new series confronting the cycles of trauma for myself, my family, and for many Black Americans.
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Listen now.
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Welcome back, Danas and Beckys.
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Gosh, it has been a few weeks.
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Took some time off and unexpectedly, my stepfather passed away.
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My stepfather, Rick, who maybe you knew as the character Bill on my TV series, One Mississippi.
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He raised me since I was two.
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We had quite the relationship.
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You know, when my mother passed away 10 years ago, it cracked him open in a way.
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The circumstances, life, and just kind of having to step up to parenting, me and my brother, even though we were adults.
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And my biological father had passed away soon after my mother.
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So Rick was our parent.
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And very sadly, that was my last parent.
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And we really
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over the past 10 years, grew together.
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And so much of it had to do with his love for my children, Max and Finn.
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He absolutely lived for them.
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And it s been very, very painful to say the least.
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I didn t think I was going to lose him.
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Like I said, it was unexpected.
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He developed pneumonia after he had choked on some food that went into his lung and that caused pneumonia.
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And very eerily, after taking antibiotics, he developed C. diff, the disease that I had 10 years ago, and that is what killed him.
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It also landed on the 10-year
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anniversary of the day I took my mother off life support and I took Rick off of life support.
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It s just been very surreal, so heavy, so hard.
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And I want to acknowledge everyone that s reached out, friends, family that have been there.
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strangers I don t even know that have written in, people that have come to shows, being on stage.
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The first time back on stage was in Denver and then Salt Lake City the night after.
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And it was just almost an hour and a half of like being able to think about something else for a second and actually enjoy myself.
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So I appreciate it more than you might ever know.
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And yes, this is a comedy podcast, and if this is your first time tuning in, this is not how they normally start off.
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But I just wanted to touch base because this episode you re about to hear was recorded previously.
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It s a really great episode and she s one of the best, I would say easily of all time, already out of the gate in her career.
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So please enjoy this episode with Phoebe Bridgers.
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If I was surrounded by ghosts, it would not affect my sleep whatsoever.
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Yeah.
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I m way more scared of people.
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Yeah.
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He said he would prefer a live person holding a gun to his face.
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That is **** insane.
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That s insane.
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Thank you.
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Sorry.
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Am I allowed to curse on this podcast?
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You know what?
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We re bleeping out every word you say.
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So it s as though you re not even here.
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Wait, I can say shoot and stuff if it helps.
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Shoot and stuff.
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Shoot and stuff.
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This is Don t Ask Tig, I m Tig Notaro, and the sound of you not asking is music to my ears.
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With me now is a songwriter, singer, whose second album, Punisher, earned four Grammy nominations, including Best New Artist.
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She s also a member of the band s Boy Genius and Better Oblivion Community Center.
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Phoebe Bridgers, thank you for joining me today.
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Thank you for having me.
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Now, your music has been described as mixing pain and joy and sorrow and redemptive beauty.
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Millions of listeners have connected with that.
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Why do you think those themes are so resonant?
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Uh, I don t know.
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I think that that s what I look for in music.
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So I hope that I am bringing that same thing to the table that I look for.
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I like it.
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I feel like that s a weird thing to say, but like, I like my music.
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So I hope that the people who like it also for the same reasons.
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You know what I mean?
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Yeah.
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I feel like you have to enjoy what you re doing for it to
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translate well.
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Right.
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Like if you didn t think you were funny, it would be like draining.
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Like you disagree with the people who thought you were funny.
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Which I think is what happens to some one hit wonder bands or whatever that think they sold out or don t like creatively what they re doing.
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And then when tons of people come to the shows, they re like, they disagree about if it s good or not.
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And that sounds soul sucking.
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There s so many elements that could be soul sucking in the world of entertainment.
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And I think you really have to find that.
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I m sorry, do I hear a pug snorting?
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A pug is protecting me right now during this podcast.
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I can only assume that s your pug.
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It s my pug.
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Yeah.
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You want to introduce your pug?
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Yeah, this is Maxine.
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Are you kidding me?
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My cat s middle name is Maxine.
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I m serious.
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My cat s name is Fluff Maxine.
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That s awesome.
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Yes.
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Maybe we should give Maxine a middle name right now.
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How about Fluff?
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Maxine Fluff.
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Totally.
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She s not very fluffy.
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She s kind of fishy.
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Well, Fluff wasn t Fluffy when we named her Fluff.
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It was what my mother used to call me when I came out of my bedroom in the morning and my hair was standing up.
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Amazing.
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Well, hello, Maxine.
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She says hello.
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So, Phoebe, you ve said that the best advice you ve ever been given was from a band member who said, your greatest ideas are your jokes.
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As a comedian, I m curious for you to elaborate on that.
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Yeah.
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I mean, we just talked about that.
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Julian and Lucy and I all talked about that.
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Half of it is to do with you tell a joke and then someone s like, that s actually a great idea.
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But also some of it is like a self-protective thing where you re like, wouldn t it be stupid if we screamed at the end of this?
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But actually you think it s a cool idea and you re waiting for people to be like, no, that s a great idea.
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What?
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Right.
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Like Julian had a guitar solo on tour where she like put her foot up on the monitor.
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Like stupid that we can only get away with with each other.
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Yeah.
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I just think life is more fun like that.
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My friend Haley Doll says the same thing.
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She s in a band called Sloppy Jane, but she says that every time she thinks something, she has to do it.
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So luckily she doesn t have any murderous thoughts, but she has like, I should get up on that table.
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Aside from even jokes, do you do that?
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Is there a lot of room for going with what crosses your mind?
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I do it.
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I show up to my shows with my jokes and stories, but then if something crosses my mind, I m like, I don t know how this is going to come out, but I have to share this.
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Totally.
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I think I have diarrhea of the mouth with that.
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I ll say literally anything that I m thinking.
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But physically, like for stage stuff, like Haley is really dynamic on stage, but if I move around on stage at all, I ll mess up.
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I remember we played a bunch right before Billie Eilish s set on this last tour at a bunch of festivals, and she s got this big catwalk that she goes out onto.
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And I was looking at it, and I was like, it s weird to play this whole show without going out on the catwalk.
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So I walked out onto it with my microphone and then just bailed.
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Like I was like gonna go out there and like move around or something.
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And I just walked maybe three feet onto it and was like, I m going to turn back around now.
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That s not something I m going to do.
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Eject.
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Eject.
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Yeah, totally.
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Totally.
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Just hearing you talk about doing a show with a catwalk and doing shows with Billie Eilish.
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I m thinking about when I saw you last.
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It was right before I think the pandemic started.
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Yes.
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And popping up in your garden song video.
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Yeah, I you were you were doing well, but I don t feel like there s a catwalk on stage or no, no, no.
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Yeah, I had the unique experience of getting a lot more people to like my music throughout the pandemic, which is
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just so weird.
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And, you know, having not toured for like two years and then going on the tour was insane.
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I was thinking about that today.
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I m like, I m sure I ll talk about this a lot for the rest of my life, but like, it is just insane.
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Like I haven t, I haven t really thought about it enough.
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I just imagine your life has changed.
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a bit in the past couple of years.
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I mean, everybody s life has changed.
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Yeah.
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When I saw you, I had had the same apartment since I was 18.
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You know, like I finally got a house and I, I had a studio apartment that it must ve had like a Murphy bed in it at some point or something.
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Cause it s just way too small.
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And I was there for the pandemic.
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It was a total nightmare.
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So I like to picture you in a gigantic sprawling mansion with just a Murphy bed in your new place.
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I was also thinking about how I had the pleasure of having you open for me at Largo.
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I can t imagine if that happened again.
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If I were to say, please welcome Phoebe Bridgers at this point, I don t think Largo would be standing anymore.
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I see, I have a great time at Largo.
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I wasn t there that long ago.
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I played for Pete Holmes s show.
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Okay.
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I love Largo, like weirdly more than anything.
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I love showing up and playing like two songs at stuff.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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You get to be choosier with what you play, which I love.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Like I feel like it really tells you what your favorite stuff is about yourself.
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Hmm.
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Hmm.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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I love a short set.
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Now, what is your connection with all of the spooky stuff, the skeletons and, you know, the song Halloween?
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I just like it.
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I ve always loved that.
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Like, did you ever read that story when you were a kid of the girl with the green ribbon around her neck?
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No.
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Spoiler alert, her head falls off.
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When she takes off the ribbon, it s attaching her head.
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It s like a mystery why she has this ribbon.
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It s a tiny book that I feel like everybody at some point got from the library who likes spooky stuff.
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Okay.
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Yeah, it s deep-rooted spookiness.
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Do you believe in ghosts?
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I wish.
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I think I want it too bad.
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I want it too bad.
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See, my assistant is so scared of ghosts.
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And we stayed at a bed and breakfast because I like to stay really close to where I m performing in case there s any mishap, I can just run over to the show.
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Totally.
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And so he was like, there s this little cute bed and breakfast.
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And I was like, those can be real hit or miss.
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But okay.
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And he said, I m pretty sure it s fully haunted.
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And I said, and worst case scenario, let s say there s ghosts everywhere.
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What could they do?
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Like they re not there, or they re shaking a chain.
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And he was like, oh God, oh my God, the hair just stood up on the back of my neck.
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And he couldn t sleep that night.
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Now, do you feel like you re somebody that gives good advice?
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I have given historically bad advice, but I ve also given good advice.
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That s why I called you.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Give me an example.
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Uh, my friend was having a, like a family problem recently.
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And I was like, well, do you even like these people?
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Why are you engaging with this?
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Like, why does it bother you so much?
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If they re behaving the way that you re describing, why are these people in your life?
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She like burst into tears and was like, I love them.
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You re just like scram.
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My reaction was like, stop talking to your family.
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And do you feel like you would do that?
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Or you have done it?
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Yeah, for sure.
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Okay, sure.
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Yeah.
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I can t relate to the like, I just found out my dad has a second family and
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how can I negotiate my relationship now?
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I m like, what?
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I feel like, I just can t imagine.
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I m just like a cut them off person.
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Right.
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And speaking of your family, I m just now remembering your mother s a comedian.
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She is.
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How is her standup career going?
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It is going great.
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I don t really drink a lot ever.
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And I was pretty young when she started.
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I want to say I was like 22.
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And I was really not drinking a lot at the time.
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But when she did it the first time and invited me, I got so wasted.
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I was so nervous.
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And it was great.
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She roasts me a lot, but I can take it.
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It s fine.
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That s awesome.
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All right, well, Phoebe, let s help my listeners.
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Our first question was sent in by a fan of yours.
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Great.
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I love those.
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Yeah, they re good.
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Early writes, I m almost 13 and I love art and music.
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I would love to pursue a career in either or both of these things, but I don t know where to start when it comes to getting my work out there.
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It s also tricky because I m younger.
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I feel like people won t take me seriously or just think that I have no idea what I m doing.
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Also, just wanted to say that I love you, Phoebe, and thank you so much for everything you do.
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I love you too.
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That s so cool.
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Yeah.
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You know, this is a bad day for me to get this question because I was thinking today about being 16 and making music and really believing in myself and then now wishing that it was all scrubbed from the internet.
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You know what I mean?
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Like people just find stuff about you forever.
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Yeah.
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I have friends like Connor whose band when he was 13 is awesome.
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It s so weird.
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Like I wish, I wish someone had stopped me, but Connor got signed really early and he s making all these recordings for when he s a teenager now and they re beautiful.
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So I don t know.
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I think both of us had a great outcome.
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I think if you make art and you do it all the time and you love it, you will meet people like that.
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The connections stuff will become obvious to you because all your friends do it.
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And they ll be like, Hey, I m, I m going to go to this art show this weekend.
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And you ll go to it because you love it.
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Like, I just feel like it happens because you re into it.
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Yeah.
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I mean, everybody has such a different path to getting to where they re going, especially in artistic endeavors.
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But I would say for sure, a hundred percent of the time, nobody, when they consider that they ve made it, they didn t take a path that
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somebody else exactly took.
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Totally.
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And it was just believing in themselves and doing what they were doing.
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And there are so many people that come along and they can change the path of your life.
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You can t really ever plan to meet those people.
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Totally.
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I still play with people I met when I was 13.
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And then there are people who I thought I was going to be working with forever or collaborating with forever who I barely know anymore.
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Isn t that crazy?
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I think it s awesome.
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I mean, listen, I mean, I have people that I have worked with, or they were my creative partner, and we could not be further apart.
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Totally.
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About comedy or writing or even the way of the world where you re just like, whoa,
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Yeah.
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We have parted ways, haven t we?
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Yeah.
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Some of the ways that I thought it would all happen, quote unquote, just turned out to be the opposite of good.
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Yeah.
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But I think they all needed to happen, you know?
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For sure.
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Yeah.
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I think some of the things I ve learned from the most are like the worst show I ever played.
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You know, playing to one person is very humbling.
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Someone who came in your car to the show and nobody bought tickets.
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That s, it s great.
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I had a humbling moment when I played a college and nobody was there and the people that booked me had me still do my hour.
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And I sat on a couch with a microphone and told it to the two people on the couch.
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And I did not think I had much of a career ahead of me.
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Well, because it s the college kids who book, right?
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So yeah, I had that too.
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I had that at Berklee School of Music, except it was weirdly more embarrassing because they had an engineering class, like a music engineering class.
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They booked me to play a show.
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So it wasn t two people.
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It was the entire engineering class who had just, you know, 13 people just set up my microphone and stuff.
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And they re all like standing to the sides and nobody comes.
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Like, I was also like, no venue even is staffed like this.
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You know, nobody s like wrapping a cable with five other people.
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I wish I could say I was embarrassed when I performed on a couch to those two faces, but I was kind of like, great, I can sit down.
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and you re going to still pay me the cash, here you go.
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Here s what I think is funny.
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But early, I would say you just have to develop a sense of trust in yourself.
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And even if you re a stand-up comedian or a singer-songwriter, it s not necessarily a solo thing that you re doing because
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writers, comedians, actors, producers.
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It s not in a vacuum as much as people might think that it is.
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Because I feel like we all learn from each other and we borrow from one another.
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And I always think about there s this poster and if anybody finds it, I will pay you $5.
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But I love it so much.
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I ve never seen it again.
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I saw it in 1991 or something.
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And Woody Guthrie was standing at the chalkboard pointing to lyrics that he wrote on the board.
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Bob Dylan was sitting in the front row of the classroom taking notes.
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And then Bruce Springsteen was sitting next to Bob Dylan and he was looking over on Bob s paper.
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Whoa.
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And I think maybe Tom Petty was sitting behind Bruce.
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And then I don t like this part.
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John Mellencamp was in the corner with a dunce hat on.
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I like John Mellencamp.
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I like all of those musicians, but I just loved it so much.
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And I ve never been able to find it.
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That s awesome.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think John Mellencamp doesn t let people look him in the eyes.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like he has a security guard be like, don t look at him.
1
SPEAKER_01
You know what?
1
SPEAKER_01
I hear that about different people.
1
SPEAKER_01
I love that.
1
SPEAKER_01
What?
1
SPEAKER_01
Hearing gossip like that?
1
SPEAKER_01
I love that stuff.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_01
Are people allowed to look you in the eye?
1
SPEAKER_01
For sure.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_01
Nobody can even glance my way.
1
SPEAKER_01
Early, there s some musician art talk from a musical genius herself.
1
SPEAKER_01
Phoebe, it s time for a break and we ll be back with more questions.
1
SPEAKER_01
And we re back.
1
SPEAKER_01
Phoebe, as I mentioned at the top, your second solo album is titled Punisher.
1
SPEAKER_01
This next question concerns punishment.
1
SPEAKER_01
Neil writes,
1
SPEAKER_01
My daughter, who is seven, constantly self-sabotages with bad behavior just prior to fun outdoor activities that I planned for her and her brother s mental and physical health.
1
SPEAKER_01
For instance, we had to punish her for her poor behavior right before taking her tobogganing with her brother.
1
SPEAKER_01
We felt we couldn t reward her by taking her tobogganing, even though it would have been great for her mentally to go.
1
SPEAKER_01
How can I balance the need for my daughter to have these fun excursions and not seem like we re rewarding her bad behavior by allowing her to go?
1
SPEAKER_01
Neil.
1
SPEAKER_01
Neil, what does bad behavior mean?
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, what is she doing?
1
SPEAKER_01
But also, it feels like if you re planning activities for their mental and physical health, I m sure you mean well.
1
SPEAKER_01
It just feels a little tightly wound or a little controlling maybe.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh yeah, there s nothing I hated more than like a big plan.
1
SPEAKER_00
As a kid?
1
SPEAKER_00
As a kid.
1
SPEAKER_00
But I don t know.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m speaking from the lens of a kid who acted out vastly.
1
SPEAKER_00
I d try to kill my little brother pretty much every day.
1
SPEAKER_00
But I don t know what would have worked on me, honestly.
1
SPEAKER_00
I have no idea.
1
SPEAKER_01
Well, what about being asked?
1
SPEAKER_01
What if this daughter, do you know if she likes tobogganing?
1
SPEAKER_01
Have you asked her, do you want to go tobogganing?
1
SPEAKER_01
Would that have helped for you, Phoebe, if somebody was like, hey,
1
SPEAKER_00
I think so, mostly with ballet.
1
SPEAKER_00
Would you like to do ballet?
1
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely not.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then maybe I wouldn t have acted out as much.
1
SPEAKER_00
How long did you do ballet?
1
SPEAKER_00
Like two seconds.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was probably like seven.
1
SPEAKER_00
My mom would get in the car.
1
SPEAKER_00
I would have my ballet outfit on.
1
SPEAKER_00
As soon as she buckled her seatbelt, I would unbuckle my seatbelt.
1
SPEAKER_00
So she would have to go back and buckle my seatbelt.
1
SPEAKER_00
I threw public tantrums pretty much everywhere.
1
SPEAKER_00
I cracked my skull open writhing because my mom didn t let me pick something out at a craft fair.
1
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don t know what would have worked.
1
SPEAKER_00
So yeah, I don t have great parenting advice, but maybe tobogganing is a punishment.
1
SPEAKER_00
Maybe not going is the punishment.
1
SPEAKER_01
I just can t help but wonder, maybe she doesn t find these activities fun.
1
SPEAKER_01
Maybe she s afraid of tobogganing.
1
SPEAKER_01
That could be something.
1
SPEAKER_01
Maybe there s some fear somewhere.
1
SPEAKER_00
I feel like it depends on what the bad behavior is.
1
SPEAKER_00
If she s like bullying other kids, sure.
1
SPEAKER_01
But if it s like, I don t want to go.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, totally.
1
SPEAKER_00
A little bit of bad behavior.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m not super worried about it.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and I feel like when you just punish a kid with no information, then I feel like you re only going to get maybe a negative reaction.
1
SPEAKER_01
You know, totally.
1
SPEAKER_01
He is only seven, but she might be able to give you some insight into her feelings.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I feel like just punishment closes that door to the conversation.
1
SPEAKER_01
Totally.
1
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it s something I m always having to try and figure out with my two little cubs.
1
SPEAKER_01
They re almost six.
1
SPEAKER_01
And, you know, we have those little moments where it s like, what is happening?
1
SPEAKER_01
Totally.
1
SPEAKER_01
And it could just be chalked up to a bad day, but, um,
1
SPEAKER_01
It s confusing for a child to be punished and then taken down a hill on a toboggan, I would imagine, you know, and be like, OK, now it s time to have fun for your mental health.
1
SPEAKER_01
We hold on.
1
SPEAKER_01
Here we go.
1
SPEAKER_01
You know, so I would say open up the conversation and figure out what she likes and what she wants to do and how she s feeling and is she scared of anything.
1
SPEAKER_01
But I mean, Phoebe Bridgers doesn t know she doesn t have kids.
1
SPEAKER_01
I have no idea.
1
SPEAKER_01
And she used to throw fits.
1
SPEAKER_01
I did.
1
SPEAKER_01
So why are we even asking her, Neil?
1
SPEAKER_01
Come on, Neil.
1
SPEAKER_01
I don t know.
1
SPEAKER_01
I hope that was helpful.
1
SPEAKER_01
We re going to take a quick break to answer a question that came in our therapy etiquette inbox.
1
SPEAKER_01
This segment is where we answer those awkward questions we all have as people getting the professional help we need and deserve and is sponsored by BetterHelp Online Therapy.
1
SPEAKER_01
This one was sent in from Catherine in Houston, Texas.
1
SPEAKER_01
Catherine writes, I ve had the same therapist for eight years and I was paired with her because the therapist in the group thought she was similar to my dead mom and thought there might be some healing transference.
1
SPEAKER_01
Well, there wasn t.
1
SPEAKER_01
Just me being happy I had a new mom.
1
SPEAKER_01
I wanted to tell her I love you, but I didn t.
1
SPEAKER_01
Can you ever tell a therapist you love them?
1
SPEAKER_01
Catherine, maybe the next time you chat with your therapist, you can say something like,
1
SPEAKER_01
I want to admit that I feel a strong urge to tell you that I love you, but when I think about this impulse, it makes me feel this way or that way or however you want to word it.
1
SPEAKER_01
And then say, I want to know how you react to hearing this and what you think this means for me.
1
SPEAKER_01
I don t think it s that crazy.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like, when I m reading this question from you, I mean, I know it s probably not typical.
1
SPEAKER_01
Maybe it is typical.
1
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I think people get close to their therapist, but I ve had a therapist for over 10 years, this same man, and I can picture myself saying, I love you,
1
SPEAKER_01
I don t know.
1
SPEAKER_01
I feel like an experienced therapist will take it in stride and help you sort your feelings.
1
SPEAKER_01
I mean, that s what therapy is for, is having a place to say, I need help sorting these things out.
1
SPEAKER_01
If it was worth writing to me about, it s definitely worth discussing with your therapist.
1
SPEAKER_01
And remember, a lot of times our deepest epiphanies start with raw feelings that we don t yet understand.
1
SPEAKER_01
So I hope that s been helpful or at least somewhat reassuring.
1
SPEAKER_01
We want to hear from you, so send us your therapy etiquette related questions at DontAskTig.org.
1
SPEAKER_01
Thanks to our sponsor BetterHelp.
1
SPEAKER_01
Now let s get back to our conversation with Phoebe Bridgers.
1
SPEAKER_01
Phoebe, do you have any recurring dreams?
1
SPEAKER_01
I ask because it s relevant to the next question.
1
SPEAKER_00
I do.
1
SPEAKER_00
I haven t had one in a really long time, but I used to go back to the same town in my dreams and that was awesome.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like a lucid dreaming experience.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think since I ve been sleeping better, I m losing out on this whole fun psycho world that I used to go to.
1
SPEAKER_01
Was it a real town or was it a made up town?
1
SPEAKER_00
No, no, it s like a made up town.
1
SPEAKER_00
And like that weird, like painful nostalgia.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like you wake up and you re like, damn, like what?
1
SPEAKER_00
I can t even put my finger on why it was so nice, but it was awesome.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that s nice because a lot of times it seems like recurring dreams are, you know, and then the spider was in my mouth when I woke up.
1
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
1
SPEAKER_01
It s not like, ah, I went to that wonderful place again.
1
SPEAKER_01
Totally.
1
SPEAKER_01
All right, well, Melissa writes, hi Tig, I ve been having recurring dreams about a famous true crime podcast host.
1
SPEAKER_01
And while I appreciate the frequency of her presence in my subconscious,
1
SPEAKER_01
She s consistently mean to me in every dream.
1
SPEAKER_01
I m a huge fan, so not sure what that says about her or me.
1
SPEAKER_01
Could you give me insight into this situation?
1
SPEAKER_01
I m not looking for requited affection in these dreams, maybe just some moderate pleasantries.
1
SPEAKER_01
Whoa.
1
SPEAKER_01
So this is like a subconscious ask.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
I wonder if it s Karen Kilgara for Georgia Hardstark.
1
SPEAKER_00
I wondered.
1
SPEAKER_00
I wonder.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, I have a weird one, which is that I always have nightmares if I eat right before bed or have spicy food.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s pretty typical, though.
1
SPEAKER_00
Totally.
1
SPEAKER_01
So maybe... I m not calling you average.
1
SPEAKER_00
I am very in that department.
1
SPEAKER_00
And every day I fly too close to the sun.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like last night I had nachos right before bed.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don t remember any dreams, but I definitely didn t sleep very well.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don t know.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s my only real advice is.
1
SPEAKER_01
I ve tried a CBD oil and that works.
1
SPEAKER_01
And then I feel like I built up my tolerance or something and then it didn t work as well.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I m very curious who the host is that s showing up and being mean.
1
SPEAKER_01
But it s kind of like my feeling about ghosts.
1
SPEAKER_01
I just don t buy into it too much.
1
SPEAKER_01
No, I think it s interesting.
1
SPEAKER_01
But what if your dreams are just
1
SPEAKER_01
neurological noise or just, you know, your brain just reorganizing and cleaning, like, not putting too much weight into it.
1
SPEAKER_01
And maybe you re listening to the podcast too much.
1
SPEAKER_01
Give yourself a break and maybe see if that helps.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I don t think there s too much psychological about it.
1
SPEAKER_00
I ve never seen an episode of Euphoria.
1
SPEAKER_00
But for some reason, my entire internet is showing me ads for Euphoria all the time.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I just remember that I had nightmares consistently when the show was being advertised quite a bit.
1
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
1
SPEAKER_00
Just involving characters that I have no idea what they do.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s just like pop culture.
1
SPEAKER_00
I had a nightmare about Ryan Gosling recently, and I think it s because I saw
1
SPEAKER_00
literally just a picture of him online before I went to bed.
1
SPEAKER_00
You re so sensitive.
1
SPEAKER_00
Totally.
1
SPEAKER_00
So my brain is just like Swiss cheese.
1
SPEAKER_01
I m surprised you re not having nightmares about nachos.
1
SPEAKER_01
Totally.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Any, any excuse for pop culture to haunt me, uh, my subconscious will take.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I definitely wouldn t put any stock into like it meaning something deeper.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don t think euphoria is haunting me.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it might just be the one sidedness of listening to a podcast.
1
SPEAKER_00
And Julian Baker actually said about my favorite murder, she was like, it s like intimacy, you don t have to be involved.
1
SPEAKER_00
And that s my favorite thing.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, it s like shooting the shit with a friend, but you are a ghost.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
involve yourself.
1
SPEAKER_01
Right.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
Melissa, my gut says to maybe just, maybe take a week off and just see if you can sleep a little better.
1
SPEAKER_01
Do you drink?
1
SPEAKER_01
Sometimes that can really disturb people s sleep.
1
SPEAKER_01
You can get deeper sleep if you re not, I m not accusing you of being a booze hound, Melissa.
1
SPEAKER_01
All right.
1
SPEAKER_01
But also what time are you listening to it?
1
SPEAKER_01
Maybe you re listening to it too close to bedtime.
1
SPEAKER_01
And then it s just in your head during the night-night hours.
1
SPEAKER_00
I like that it s about true crime.
1
SPEAKER_00
And instead of being nightmares about getting murdered in your sleep, it s approval from the host is what haunts you.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
Well, Melissa, that s what Phoebe and I think, all right?
1
SPEAKER_01
And we ve got one last thing to do before you get out of here, Phoebe.
1
SPEAKER_01
Sweet.
1
SPEAKER_01
I m going to take us to the confession booth.
1
SPEAKER_01
Welcome to the confession booth.
1
SPEAKER_01
Whoa.
1
SPEAKER_01
The Don t Ask Tig Confession Booth features listeners sharing secrets they ve never told anyone, Phoebe, in order for us to give them the advice they re afraid to ask for.
1
SPEAKER_01
Today s confession was sent by Leanne.
1
SPEAKER_01
Leanne writes, When I was living abroad in my early 20s, I had an affair with a much older man who happened to be married with two children.
1
SPEAKER_01
I knew that going into the relationship.
1
SPEAKER_01
He proceeded to separate from his wife, and we had a relationship for two years.
1
SPEAKER_01
During that time, he got divorced.
1
SPEAKER_01
Our relationship didn t work out, largely due to the age difference, but also due to the shame we both felt.
1
SPEAKER_01
I m now in my mid-30s and happily married, but I can t get over my guilt for being a part of breaking up a marriage.
1
SPEAKER_01
What should I do?
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh boy, I mean Leanne, I just want to say right out of the gate
1
SPEAKER_01
the only people responsible for the relationship are the ones in it?
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_01
But that doesn t mean you won t have emotional consequences or, um, ghost dreams or podcast host dreams about it.
1
SPEAKER_01
I mean, if you re human, you were nodding.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_01
Emphatically.
1
SPEAKER_01
I ve dated,
1
SPEAKER_00
married people before.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I ve been in the situation of, yeah, major age gaps.
1
SPEAKER_00
I ve had ex-partners be really mad at me, as in the spouse of whoever I started dating.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I used to feel so bad about it.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I definitely would never
1
SPEAKER_00
do it again.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think that s part of the lesson is like, someone s not giving you the whole story.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think if anybody who s ever been in a relationship, it s like, oh, we re basically separated or we sleep in separate rooms.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s like, no.
1
SPEAKER_00
Uh, so that s a lesson, but definitely don t feel bad about it.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like you were, you were manipulated.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s not really fair, especially when there s an age gap.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s not, I don t think it s super fair to put someone in that position.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s my, that s my two cents.
1
SPEAKER_01
Also.
1
SPEAKER_01
If it wasn t you, Leanne, it might have just been some other person.
1
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely.
1
SPEAKER_01
And no offense, but I don t know if you were special.
1
SPEAKER_01
And this person might have been doing this with somebody else.
1
SPEAKER_01
I mean, as soon as things get tricky and gray like that, it
1
SPEAKER_01
it kind of, things fly out of the window, you know?
1
SPEAKER_01
And I don t know.
1
SPEAKER_01
Feeling guilt long after the fact, I think, is useless.
1
SPEAKER_01
Unless it keeps you from stepping outside of your own marriage or doing this type of thing again, I feel like that s the only way guilt from past actions
1
SPEAKER_01
can be used.
1
SPEAKER_00
Also, it puts, it puts so much pressure on the relationship.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like then you weirdly, you feel like you have to be, you have to make it work with that person.
1
SPEAKER_00
If there were like so many sacrifices to be together and that s not true either.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, I, I read a book last year called Animal by Lisa Tadeo.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s so traumatizing.
1
SPEAKER_00
Definitely.
1
SPEAKER_00
biggest trigger warning ever, but it dealt with some of that stuff in a way that I thought, I don t know, I just really, really liked it.
1
SPEAKER_00
I have a book recommendation.
1
SPEAKER_01
I thought you said, I wrote a book last year and I was like, my goodness, look at you.
1
SPEAKER_00
Can you imagine if this was my blog?
1
SPEAKER_00
I waited until the end for one.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m promoting a book.
1
SPEAKER_00
To casually.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh, all right.
1
SPEAKER_01
Well,
1
SPEAKER_01
Leanne, I say use that guilt to just move on and never do anything like that again.
1
SPEAKER_01
But don t linger in there because I really feel like it could have very easily been somebody else.
1
SPEAKER_01
You re not the reason this guy got out of his relationship.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, a thousand percent.
1
SPEAKER_01
That is not a knock against you as a
2
SPEAKER_01
person.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m just saying that it really always goes back to the people that are in the commitment.
2
SPEAKER_01
So, Phoebe, should we assign a form of penance to Leanne?
2
SPEAKER_02
No.
2
SPEAKER_02
I think, you know, therapy s great.
2
SPEAKER_02
I talk about that stuff with my therapist all the time.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s awesome.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, it sounds like Phoebe s inviting you to therapy with her, Leanne.
2
SPEAKER_01
I am.
2
SPEAKER_01
Let s do couples counseling.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, I hope that was helpful in some way, Leanne and Phoebe, we ve reached the end of the show.
2
SPEAKER_01
Is there anything you d like to promote?
2
SPEAKER_02
Um, new Muna music is coming out, a band on my label and it s really good.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, they are incredible.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, they re the best.
2
SPEAKER_01
You and I did Corden with them.
2
SPEAKER_01
Corden.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh my gosh.
2
SPEAKER_01
It was one of those experiences where I was like, oh, well, who are these people?
2
SPEAKER_01
They were so nice and fun and funny and cool.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then they got on stage and I was like, oh my God, they re rock stars.
2
SPEAKER_01
Rock stars.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Rock stars.
2
SPEAKER_01
And they re on your label, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
Satisfactory Records and Moona has new music out right now, and it s awesome.
2
SPEAKER_02
It is incredible.
2
SPEAKER_02
They re so great.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, Phoebe, I think you re incredible, and I look forward to seeing you in the flesh again sooner than later.
2
SPEAKER_01
And congrats on everything.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s just so fun to watch, and I love, love your music like everybody else alive.
2
SPEAKER_01
Thanks for having me.
2
SPEAKER_01
Goodbye, Maxine.
2
SPEAKER_01
Say bye, pig.
2
SPEAKER_01
Also, Don t Ask Tig is nominated for a Webby Award this year.
2
SPEAKER_01
We re up for best advice and how-to episode for our conversation with Esther Perel.
2
SPEAKER_01
Voting closes later today, so go vote at webbyawards.com.
2
SPEAKER_01
And tignotaro.com is where you ll find tickets to my live show.
2
SPEAKER_01
Get your tickets now.
2
SPEAKER_03
That s what you heard
2
SPEAKER_01
Don t Ask Tig is hosted by me, Tig Notaro.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s produced by Thomas Ouellette, Shana Deloria, and Ryan Lohr.
2
SPEAKER_01
Our executive producer and editor is Beth Perlman.
2
SPEAKER_01
Engineering and sound mixing by Johnny Vince Evans and Eric Romani.
2
SPEAKER_01
Digital production by James Napoli.
2
SPEAKER_01
Talent booking by Marianne Ways.
2
SPEAKER_01
Production support from Pizza Shark and Sarah McRae.
2
SPEAKER_01
Our theme music is Friend and Tig by Edie Burkell and Kyle Krushem, and Listen to Your Heart by Edie Burkell.
2
SPEAKER_01
Special thanks to Hunter Seidman.
2
SPEAKER_01
APM Studios executives in charge are Lily Kim, Alex Shaffert, and Joanne Griffith.
2
SPEAKER_01
Concept developed by Tracy Mumford.
2
SPEAKER_01
Our executive consultant is Dean Capello and Gobsmack Studios.
2
SPEAKER_01
You can always ask for advice at DontAskTig.org.
2
SPEAKER_01
Just write in with your problem or send us a voice memo.
2
SPEAKER_01
Remember to follow us on social media at DontAskTig.
2
SPEAKER_01
DontAskTig is a production of American Public Media.
2
SPEAKER_01
And as always, thanks Dana, and I ll tell Becky.
2
SPEAKER_01
Hi, I m stand-up comedian and sex symbol Tig Notaro.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I m actor and writer Sheryl Hines.
2
SPEAKER_01
Before Sheryl and I got into the big business of podcasting together, we were just simply friends.
2
SPEAKER_00
And we re still friends.
2
SPEAKER_00
But now we talk about a different documentary every week on our podcast, Tig and Sheryl, True Story.
2
SPEAKER_00
So whether you love documentaries or just want to hear us slowly lose our minds, check out Tig and Sheryl, True Story, wherever you get your podcasts.
2
SPEAKER_01
Alright, cool.