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 This is episode number 1203 on the psychological strategies to read anyone.
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Welcome to the school of greatness.
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My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur.
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And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness.
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Thanks for spending some time with me today.
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Now let the class begin.
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 Welcome back, my friend.
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Today's episode is all about understanding people, building rapport and trust with someone.
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And there's a way to always get what you want in this life.
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And it starts with being able to accurately read and understand people.
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Now, we as human beings are social creatures, which means understanding how we communicate is one of the most important parts of our lives.
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And that's why this week, I wanted to bring together two extraordinary moments from interviews I've done with former
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 Secret Service agent Evie Pampouris and former FBI negotiator Chris Voss.
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So in this breakdown, we discuss how to build rapport and trust with anyone, knowing the difference between someone who is lying or telling the truth, the formula to get people to do things
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 for you because they feel like it and they want to.
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The hostage negotiation tactics you should be using on a daily basis, and so much more.
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Again, this is all about understanding people, human nature, human dynamics, and human psychology.
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If you are inspired by this and finding value from this, make sure to spread this message with someone that you think would be inspired as well.
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You can copy and paste the link wherever you're listening to this.
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 share it over on social media, make sure to tag me, at Lewis Howes, or text a few friends, email some friends, get the message out, because it's all about spreading the message of greatness to more people.
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And I want to give a shout out to the fan of the week.
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This is from Pierre Schramm, who said, Lewis has shown such kindness and willingness to put himself out there in hopes of bringing value to others.
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Himself, along with the people he associates with, have made a major impact on my life.
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I believe that it's making an even greater impact for others.
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 And I'm proud of the work that he and others do for the right reasons.
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11 stars on a scale of five, keep up the great work.
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So big shout out here for being the fan of the week.
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And if you guys want to get a chance to be shouted out on the podcast, go to Apple podcast right now, leave a review.
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Let me know at the end of this episode or during this, what part of this episode you enjoyed the most, why you get value from this show, and it'll help us spread the message to more people as well.
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 Okay, in just a moment, we'll dive into the top secret psychological strategies to read anyone and get what you want.
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 In this first section, you'll hear from Chris Voss.
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During Chris's 24-year tenure in the FBI, he was trained in the art of negotiation by not only the FBI, but also Scotland Yard and Harvard Law School.
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He has used his many years of experience in international crisis and high-stakes negotiations to develop a unique program and team that applies these globally proven techniques to the business world.
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 In this section, we discuss the formula to get people to do things for you because they feel like it, a role-playing exercise that you can do with a friend to practice negotiation, the importance of intention before beginning a negotiation, how to not burn bridges when a negotiation goes south, and which hostage negotiation tactics Chris uses on a daily basis.
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What's the formula or process to get people to do things just because they feel like it?
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 Well, you know, it's really, it's going to sound stupid.
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Yeah.
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Smiling, being nice.
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Neuroscience behind a smile.
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If you smile at somebody, you actually hit their mirror neurons.
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 you start a smile in their brain.
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Smile is an involuntary response.
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A mirror neurons.
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Mirror neurons in their brain.
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It's the same as if the doctor hits your knee with a little hammer and your leg kicks forward.
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You didn't choose to have your leg kick forward.
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It's an involuntary response.
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So if somebody sees you and you smile, you've instantly hit their mirror neurons.
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You started a chemical change.
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Now they might fight it.
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And sometimes you gotta get them three smiles.
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 Right, but I've learned smile you get them smiling too.
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Yeah, so you've already started the process and then Your inner voice betrays your outer voice When you say how are you to somebody at Starbucks?
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Your inner voice is saying I'm trying to make your day better.
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I I I want you to be a happier person.
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They're gonna feel it
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 If your inner voice is saying like, how are you today?
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I need my Starbucks coffee and I need to get out of here and I hate this line and I hate how long you guys, if that's in your voice, they're gonna feel that, they're gonna be pouring decaf in instead of the other kind.
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So your entire approach, the neuroscience shows us the person is picking it up and responding.
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And so your body language, your tone of voice, the greatest negotiators in the world
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 really maximize that because it's an invisible skill.
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Yeah.
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But it's a skill you can teach, it sounds like.
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And learn.
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And learn.
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You can teach it.
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You can learn it.
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You can practice it.
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All you got to do is get your repetitions in.
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John Foley's a Blue Angel pilot.
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I heard him speak about four years ago.
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He talked about how long does it take to build a habit?
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How much training do you need?
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He called it putting a groove in your brain.
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 The Blue Angels, they gotta build their habits before they get up in the sky, otherwise the jets crash.
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I was in a Blue Angel two years ago.
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It was crazy, man.
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That had to have been an adrenaline ride.
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I threw up twice.
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I was sick the whole time and sick for three days afterwards.
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I've got a weak stomach, but it was unbelievable at the same time.
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They needed to know what they were doing.
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Oh, for sure.
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They can't learn up there, right?
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It's amazing to watch them so close, just like feet away from each other.
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 At Mach 1 or however fast it goes?
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At 4 or 5, whatever, yeah, it's crazy.
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Yeah.
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Alright, so Foley said, how do they get that good?
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They practice, he said, 63 to 64 repetitions to put it in your brain.
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And another guy wrote the talent code, Daniel Coyle.
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He talked about perfect practice.
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 You could go excruciatingly slow as long as you do it right.
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And the first time you try any skill, you probably go slow.
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You come to one of the training sessions that my company puts on, I'm gonna say, say this word for word.
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Take your time.
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And then react in the moment.
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We have one of the negotiation tools is what we call a label.
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 When I say something to you, I want you to label it.
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I don't care if you have to stare at me for 10 minutes.
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Label it.
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Label it.
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It seems like, it sounds like, it looks like.
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A label's a verbal observation.
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Okay.
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But I need you to use those exact words.
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And if I say, I love teaching negotiations.
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Now, label my emotion.
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 Your emotion?
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The emotion that I displayed when I said I love teaching negotiations.
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Label that.
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What did you say, the three things?
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It seems like, it sounds like, or it looks like.
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Label them.
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Say all three of them?
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Pick one of those three.
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Say, all right, I'm going to say it again, and I want you to say word for word, it sounds like, and then fill in the blank.
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OK.
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I love teaching negotiation.
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It sounds like you love teaching negotiation.
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Yeah.
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 Now, to start with, what just happened is you demonstrated it perfectly.
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Because the important part is you have to say the first three words.
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That actually fires the brain.
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And you did exactly what I thought you would do, which is you said, it sounds like you fired the brain, and then you opened yourself up to whatever your brain put in.
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That's why I wanted you to actually say the words, the actual specific words.
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 Because your brain will kick into gear and say something.
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Now, your first label, every time you fire the synapse, you get a little bit better.
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There's a substance called myelin.
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Your brain wraps this substance.
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It's an electrical synaptic connection in your brain.
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And anybody, you know, if you know anything about electricity, every time you insulate it, it fires a little bit better.
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Fire it 63 to 64 times,
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 according to the Blue Angel pilot, and you get a nice circuit built.
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And it'll fire quickly.
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And then you'll start to hear it.
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So we'll fire it again, and I want you to label it again.
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I love teaching negotiation.
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Sounds like you love teaching negotiation.
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All right, now dig a little bit deeper.
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Explain it more?
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No, no, no.
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Another label, but use another adjective.
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It sounds like X.
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 I love teaching negotiation.
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It sounds like you're passionate about it.
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There you go, see?
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Perfect.
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Now you came up with another word.
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Now it stumped you for a second and you let that supercomputer come up with another word.
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You're like, yeah, I am passionate about it.
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Now interestingly enough, this is a way in a business negotiation
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 Because a great business deal is an alignment of core values.
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Just like a great personal relationship is an alignment of core values.
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I'm sitting on a plane flying in here.
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This morning, I found out more about the guy sitting on a plane next to me than he's told anybody in 20 years with this same kind of an exercise.
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What do you do for a living?
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What do you love about it?
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And when he tells me, I now know the guy sat next to you on a plane,
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 He's got an adopted daughter.
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She was adopted when she was six months old from China.
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His mother struggled with bipolar manic depressive.
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She committed suicide at age 17.
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He was raised by his grandparents.
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His grandfather survived the Depression.
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His grandfather, at one point in time, going into the Depression, owned 11 banks that all went bankrupt.
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He had to start completely over again.
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His grandfather used to tell him, I lost 11 fortunes.
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 His grandfather loved to live off the land.
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They loved to make things by hand.
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This guy's a very successful contractor here in Los Angeles now.
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And he's constantly, constantly, constantly working on improving himself.
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Married to his first wife.
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They're business partners.
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They work together.
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They work in different aspects of the business.
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I mean, I've lost track of the number of things I found out about this guy.
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I know about this guy from when he was three years old to now.
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 Now, in the space of what sounded like a normal social conversation, I know this guy's incredibly loyal.
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He's very practical.
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He's very hardworking.
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I just flew in from Vegas.
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He was in Vegas because he was in a competitive poker tournament.
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He likes reading people.
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He's a very hard worker.
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 From what I know from this guy, from what this perceived social conversation, I know that we could do business together and if we run into trouble, I have a pretty good idea of what to expect from him and how to deal with those problems if we run into trouble.
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With the very sort of thing that you and I did just now.
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 You know, he starts teasing stuff out.
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So when you ask him a question and he says something, you would use one of those responses.
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It seems like, it sounds like, what was the other one?
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Yeah, or it feels like.
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It feels like.
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It looks like.
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It could be it looks like.
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It looks like.
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I might be reading your body language.
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It looks like.
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It's like you're not that interested into it.
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Even though you said you were, your body language tells me something different.
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Exactly.
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Yeah.
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And then, and then see, if you see that in somebody's body language,
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 Your point before about Starbucks, about actually seeing a person, that same thing is going on.
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And they might not even know it.
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You know, every now and then I get people go like, yeah, you know, I've been struggling with this for a while.
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I'm really, really conflicted about it.
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And they find themselves opening up because, you know, most of the time you see conflict in somebody, most people say, ah, it'll be fine.
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Just keep working hard.
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It'll be fine.
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It's all part of the journey.
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 Right.
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Instead of actually being a great sounding board for somebody and helping them sound that out, consequently learning a lot about that person at the same time.
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It sounds like you're going through a lot right now.
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It sounds like you're having a hard time with this.
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Yeah.
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Exactly.
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It's exactly right.
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 And you start to become a tremendous sounding board for people.
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So what happens to that person when you respond in one of those three or four ways, if it sounds like, feels like, looks like, what does that person feel on the other side when you're showing that type of compassion or empathy?
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They feel connected with.
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They feel very connected with.
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They feel seen.
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 They feel like they're a person on the planet.
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They feel like suddenly they're not just another part of the thundering herd that nobody's paying attention to.
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They feel at least that.
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Last week, we're doing a training with some pretty tough business people.
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And one of the guys in this exercise is saying, I found myself talking about stuff that happened when I was seven years old.
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He said, I got to tell you something.
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I feel transformed right now.
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 And so we stopped the group at that point in time, and we said, all right, so now, based on Larry talking about that sort of a change, what kind of a guy is he to deal with?
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He's a pretty decent guy.
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You now have gotten a glimpse into him as more as a total human being, which means if he does something that you perceive to be a negative move,
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 He either did it accidentally or you misinterpreted it, which means it's okay to go back to him instead of letting the rage build up in you because you misinterpreted something or did it by accident.
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He's a decent guy.
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If he slighted you, he did it by accident, you can go back to him and bring it up and say, hey, I gotta tell you, I got a problem with this.
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 he's probably gonna open up, because just based on this real, this three minute exercise, you find out about it.
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He opened up then, so you'd probably, yeah.
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He's a decent human being.
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Wow.
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And every human being is gonna hurt you, principally inadvertently.
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 So you can go back to them and find out what's behind it and make them aware, because they're going to want to know.
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Yeah.
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Every human being is going to hurt you?
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Everybody, one way or another, is going to do something accidentally or on purpose that's going to hurt your feeling.
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We're going to interpret it as negative the vast majority of the time, when in fact it was probably a complete accident.
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There's a really good chance they had no idea they hurt your feelings.
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Right.
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You need to know which one it was.
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 Did they do it on purpose?
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Do they know they did it?
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The numbers are that they did it by accident, and the other numbers are there's a really good chance they didn't know they did it.
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I went to a landmark forum a couple years ago, talking about making amends with people, talking to people who have hurt you.
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And so one of the young ladies- Did you go through the whole program?
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Yeah.
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One of the young ladies in it was like, when I was seven, this girl who was my cousin,
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 You know, they bullied me.
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You know, they said something to hurt me.
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You know, it's 30 years.
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I haven't let go.
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Wow.
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So we talked about it.
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They talked about it.
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And she said she went.
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She decided to go to the person and just... Because to forgive.
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To forgive is to let go.
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You know, not forgiving is like taking poison and hoping the other person dies, right?
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You've heard that.
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Yeah.
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So she goes to this girl and she says, I want you to know I forgot.
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The girl didn't even remember.
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She got no memory.
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She was just being a stupid kid at the time.
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 We're all stupid at seven, right?
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Yeah, they're joking around.
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Wow, she held on to it for that long?
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30 years.
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The other person doesn't even know it.
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So by nature, we're joking around with somebody, and we accidentally say something that wounded them.
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If they don't feel they can talk to us, they're going to carry it for 30 years.
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If I hurt somebody, I want to know.
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 Because I'm going to be like, I'm an idiot.
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I had no idea I did that to you.
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I had no idea.
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Was there anything from the emotional intelligence training at Landmark that added to your curriculum of negotiations that you didn't already know or use before?
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Because it's all interwoven.
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The biggest thing that jumped out at me is it occurred to me that somebody hurt somebody else without even knowing they did it.
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 Like in the master class thing, they did a great job.
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The master class people are phenomenal.
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So we're wandering to the very tail end of it.
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And they got me talking about this guy that bullied me when I was a kid.
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You?
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Yeah, you're talking about, yeah.
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Yeah, and I had literally never told anybody about this.
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Wow.
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And it happened when I was a little kid.
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I literally had never told anybody about it.
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Not even through Landmark or anything else?
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Nothing.
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Wow.
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 And they get it out of me in master class, they catch me off guard over it, and to this day, this is one of the reasons why I hate bullies.
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I wanna become an FBI agent because we wanna go after the bad guys, because the bad guys are bullies.
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And there's nothing I like better than getting a bully that's victimizing somebody else.
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And I think it was instilled in me in what happened when I was a kid.
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 But then I started comparing that to this interaction I heard at Landmark where somebody bullied somebody else and they didn't even know they did it.
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And then I began thinking about how many people have I hurt that I didn't even know?
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If they would have come up to me today and said, I've carried this for 40 years.
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And I have to have done that to somebody.
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I have to have done that to somebody.
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SPEAKER_02
 So this forgiveness thing is a two-way street and also being, who do I need to go back to that I can think of?
0
SPEAKER_02
And say, look, since I know that inadvertently I'm a jerk, what did I do?
0
SPEAKER_02
I'm sure I did something.
0
SPEAKER_02
I had to have done something.
0
SPEAKER_02
Then it's an interesting dilemma, all sort of part of being a better person anyway, which I know is what you're dedicated to.
0
SPEAKER_01
 It seems like it's really hard, especially if you're a public figure that has an audience, that you're gonna say something or do something that's going to offend or hurt someone.
0
SPEAKER_01
At all the times.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's like you're always going to be offending someone if you have a voice.
0
SPEAKER_01
If you're sharing something, your point of view.
0
SPEAKER_01
Your point of view is going to reach a certain audience's point of view, but not the rest of the world's point of view.
0
SPEAKER_01
So it's like you're always hurting people, aren't you?
0
SPEAKER_01
 At some level, you're like offending, hurting, or frustrating people.
0
SPEAKER_02
And their hurt's going to be defensive in reaction.
0
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_02
Or they misinterpret, or you hit a button with them that you didn't even, maybe you didn't hit the button, but you came close to a button that's been hurt before.
0
SPEAKER_02
Came close.
0
SPEAKER_02
And interestingly enough, we see this a lot with the procurement people that come to our training.
0
SPEAKER_02
I'm really careful.
0
SPEAKER_02
 to say, look, look, I know you guys fear procurement, and this is about dealing successfully with procurement.
0
SPEAKER_02
And we had one person in the training go, I work in procurement, and you criticized, you said procurement people were bad.
0
SPEAKER_02
I said, as a matter of fact, that's not what I said.
0
SPEAKER_02
But I came so close to your hot button that it hit it anyway.
0
SPEAKER_02
And I spent some time with this woman, and she was afraid that that was what I meant.
0
SPEAKER_02
 But didn't know how to approach me.
0
SPEAKER_02
And when it came up subsequently, I said, no, as a matter of fact, procurement has one of the most difficult jobs on the planet.
0
SPEAKER_02
You guys are both, you spend your days either herding cats or getting chased by villagers with pitchforks.
0
SPEAKER_02
One or the other.
0
SPEAKER_02
And she was like, yeah, yeah, it's really tough.
0
SPEAKER_02
I was just afraid that that's what you meant.
0
SPEAKER_02
 It was that amygdala that we were talking about before, the 75% negative.
0
SPEAKER_02
We're all equipped with that.
0
SPEAKER_02
And when someone even comes close to a criticism, then we're afraid that that's what they mean and they're hurt.
0
SPEAKER_02
How do you take criticism?
0
SPEAKER_01
Not well.
0
SPEAKER_01
I've never really been good at it until, I wouldn't say I've mastered it, I think I've gotten better.
0
SPEAKER_01
 over the last six years, I started to really like say, okay, let me not react to this criticism.
0
SPEAKER_01
Like they probably have some good intention they're trying to tell me and maybe there's some truth there.
0
SPEAKER_01
So let me start to listen to the feedback or the criticism and say, okay, how can I be better?
0
SPEAKER_01
Is there any truth in there that really resonates or are they coming from a place of anger of their own thing?
0
SPEAKER_02
Criticism is mostly fear driven.
0
SPEAKER_01
 By the person criticizing.
0
SPEAKER_02
Right.
0
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_02
And you criticize at a point of fact, you've been hurt, you've been disappointed, you've been frustrated.
0
SPEAKER_02
You know, there's a lot of sayings that, you know, never take advice from anybody you wouldn't trade places with.
0
SPEAKER_02
Criticism is a form of advice.
0
SPEAKER_02
But you're afraid to tell people how to do stuff.
0
SPEAKER_02
So you just criticize what they do.
0
SPEAKER_02
Some people, and then they get, it becomes an addiction for some people.
0
SPEAKER_02
 Criticism is not a great behavior.
0
SPEAKER_02
I know you've heard the phrase, nobody's doing better than you will ever criticize you.
0
SPEAKER_02
They'll mentor you.
0
SPEAKER_02
So first of all, how do I take criticism?
0
SPEAKER_02
I gotta take a step back and understand if somebody's coming at me with just a criticism, even if they ask permission to criticize, they got struggles that are worse than mine.
0
SPEAKER_01
 If they ask you to give you criticism?
0
SPEAKER_02
They are an open wound at that point in time.
0
SPEAKER_02
So I'm not going to, I'm going to say, yeah, sure, go ahead.
0
SPEAKER_02
They've already told me they're probably coming from a difficult place.
0
SPEAKER_02
So what I'm going to try to do is just kind of take it easy on them.
0
SPEAKER_02
 And understand where they're coming from.
0
SPEAKER_02
A blog I'm a big fan of, Eric Barker writes this great blog, Barking Up the Wrong Truth.
0
SPEAKER_02
Eric told me one time, for every hater, there's going to be 10 people that are on your side.
0
SPEAKER_02
So when a critic comes up to me, I see that as there are 10 people.
0
SPEAKER_02
You're indicating to me that I'm successful with nine other people.
0
SPEAKER_02
 and I'm not gonna get down on this person because it's very easy to get down on them because unfortunately they're coming from a negative place.
0
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, gotcha.
0
SPEAKER_01
That's good to know.
0
SPEAKER_01
What's a role-playing exercise that anyone can do with a friend that would make them a better negotiator?
0
SPEAKER_02
Try to get whoever you're talking to to say the magic two words, that's right.
0
SPEAKER_02
 which means you gotta summarize where they're coming from.
0
SPEAKER_02
If you, in any given interaction, if you got a point you wanna make, before you make it, your trigger, you're not allowed to make your point.
0
SPEAKER_01
So give me an example.
0
SPEAKER_01
And you want the other person you're role-playing with to say, that's right.
0
SPEAKER_02
Okay, so you were telling me about critics.
0
SPEAKER_02
You're a high-profile guy.
0
SPEAKER_02
You're about helping other people.
0
SPEAKER_02
 which means you get criticized a lot.
0
SPEAKER_02
That's right.
0
SPEAKER_02
And when you get criticized, I mean, you know, I wouldn't say you're empathic, although you are.
0
SPEAKER_02
I would say you're probably more compassionate.
0
SPEAKER_02
Those are two different things.
0
SPEAKER_02
Empathy is, you have to have empathy to be compassionate, but empathy is not compassion.
0
SPEAKER_02
Compassion is the next step.
0
SPEAKER_02
Empathy is a compassionate thing to do, genuinely understanding somebody.
0
SPEAKER_02
 But there's a real fine line there, they're distinct things.
0
SPEAKER_02
And I think you have a tremendous amount of compassion for people.
0
SPEAKER_02
So you know that when someone criticizes you, they're attacking you.
0
SPEAKER_02
But you also know that they've been hurt and they're struggling.
0
SPEAKER_02
 So you want to know how to respond to them and have them better as a result of the interaction instead of coming back and making it feel worse and you struggle with that because you're under attack and you're trying not to fire back at them.
0
SPEAKER_01
So you want to have a conversation with someone.
0
SPEAKER_01
If you could summarize their point of view first.
0
SPEAKER_02
 Summarize the other person's, when you summarize what the other person's struggling with.
0
SPEAKER_01
In any type of deal making.
0
SPEAKER_01
In any type of deal.
0
SPEAKER_01
A business deal, a relationship, buying coffee, upgrading, whatever it is.
0
SPEAKER_01
Right.
0
SPEAKER_01
Gotcha.
0
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_01
Then after that, you can make your point.
0
SPEAKER_01
Make your point or make your proposal or.
0
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, or whatever.
0
SPEAKER_01
So if you're trying to get an upgrade.
0
SPEAKER_01
If you're trying to get an upgrade.
0
SPEAKER_01
 I'm in the airport, you know, on a plane or at a hotel.
0
SPEAKER_02
Right.
0
SPEAKER_01
Or trying to get a super-sized meat for free.
0
SPEAKER_02
Right.
0
SPEAKER_01
You're trying to get some type of upgrade for free.
0
SPEAKER_02
Right.
0
SPEAKER_01
Would you do the same thing?
0
SPEAKER_01
Would you say, I know you're going through, it seems like it's been a long day for you.
0
SPEAKER_02
Well, you can look at them and tell whether or not it's going to be a long day.
0
SPEAKER_02
So right off the bat, you say, long day?
0
SPEAKER_02
Right.
0
SPEAKER_02
And then as soon as you get ready to make your ask,
0
SPEAKER_02
 What's their instinctive response, their knee-jerk reaction, what's that gonna be?
0
SPEAKER_02
When I make an ask?
0
SPEAKER_02
Once you've made your ask, of somebody who's trying to get something for free, what's their typical knee-jerk reaction?
0
SPEAKER_01
Oh, this person's just trying to get something for free from me?
0
SPEAKER_01
Right.
0
SPEAKER_01
 And everyone does this?
0
SPEAKER_01
Everyone's doing this.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Somebody who doesn't care about you could care less whether you live or die.
1
SPEAKER_00
They only care that you're alive long enough to make my coffee.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because that's what the other guy's thinking.
1
SPEAKER_00
How do you articulate what they're thinking, especially the negative stuff about you?
1
SPEAKER_00
When you say that, they're going to be like,
1
SPEAKER_00
 was you just woke them up.
1
SPEAKER_00
You snapped them out of the negative loop that's in their head.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because the last guy come in and said, yeah, I want it now.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I hate waiting in line at Starbucks.
1
SPEAKER_02
Do you do this all the time, all day long?
1
SPEAKER_02
Are you constantly in a game of negotiation with people?
1
SPEAKER_00
It's that I brushed my teeth today just because I brushed them yesterday.
1
SPEAKER_00
 You know, I genuinely, I gotta keep my skills up.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because it's either stay even, decline, or get better.
1
SPEAKER_00
I wanna keep my skills up.
1
SPEAKER_00
The mercenary in me does it because I gotta keep my skills up.
1
SPEAKER_00
The missionary in me does it because I actually care about people.
1
SPEAKER_00
I just assume that you had a good day.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, that you didn't, that my interaction with you didn't leave you worse.
1
SPEAKER_00
 that my interaction with you left you better.
1
SPEAKER_00
Everybody we encounter should be left better by the interaction.
1
SPEAKER_02
How important is the intention before you walk up to the coffee shop, before you go to the hotel, before you get on the phone with the other business owner to make a deal, before you have a conversation with your partner about where you're going to dinner?
1
SPEAKER_02
 Do you set an intention first, like walking into the hotel, you're like, this is what I'm gonna say, this is the result that I wanna get out of this, this is the way I wanna leave people feeling?
1
SPEAKER_00
Do you do that personally?
1
SPEAKER_00
The intention is, I want you to have fun with the interaction.
1
SPEAKER_00
The other person?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
I want you to have fun.
1
SPEAKER_00
If I'm playful, if I'm intending for you to have fun, I'm in a department store, I'm joking around with the guy behind the counter,
1
SPEAKER_00
 And I go, I gotta tell you what, you know what?
1
SPEAKER_00
How about if you give me the employee discount?
1
SPEAKER_00
Give me the employee discount.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'll say it like that.
1
SPEAKER_00
Give me the employee discount.
1
SPEAKER_00
And the guy in the store says, if I give you the employee discount, I'm gonna have to pay for it myself.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I go, I'll pay you back.
1
SPEAKER_00
I said it just like that.
1
SPEAKER_00
He went and he started walking around asking people how he could key it in and give me the same discount without having to pay it himself.
1
SPEAKER_00
 He walked around the store for 10 minutes.
1
SPEAKER_00
Really?
1
SPEAKER_00
And I saw him walk up to a manager, and there's a manager shaking his head.
1
SPEAKER_00
He's going to someone else.
1
SPEAKER_00
And on his way back, another employee walked up to him on the side, whispered in his ear, and he went, OK.
1
SPEAKER_00
And he walked up, and I get 30% off.
1
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
1
SPEAKER_02
But you didn't pay him back.
1
SPEAKER_02
It was just like a playful.
1
SPEAKER_00
I just, you know, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
I just was being playful about it, just being silly about it.
1
SPEAKER_02
And what's the best way to get an upgrade at a hotel for you?
1
SPEAKER_00
 All right, so a slightly different take on the approach.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
My son does this all the time.
1
SPEAKER_00
My son, Brandon, runs my business.
1
SPEAKER_00
He's our best negotiator.
1
SPEAKER_00
He prides himself when we all come into a hotel, he's got to be in a better room than me.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I'm the boss.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's hilarious.
1
SPEAKER_00
And as far as I'm concerned, I'm paying the bills.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, of course.
1
SPEAKER_00
He got an upgrade in a hotel one time that I couldn't even get on the floor.
1
SPEAKER_02
 You need a special key, key code.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Me and the other guys were going, hey, we'll come up to your room.
1
SPEAKER_00
He goes, no, no.
1
SPEAKER_00
He goes, I got to come get you.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, wow.
1
SPEAKER_00
I said, no, we'll just come knock on your door.
1
SPEAKER_00
He goes, no, you can't even get on the floor I'm on.
1
SPEAKER_00
He paid less for his room than I paid for mine.
1
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'm the boss.
1
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
1
SPEAKER_00
But he'll walk up to somebody and say, I'm getting ready to make your day the most difficult day you ever worked here.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And he says just somebody works behind a counter at a hotel.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean God knows what they've seen, you know, have you got a head in the bag?
1
SPEAKER_00
Do you want to are you gonna have ritual sacrifice in a room, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, what have you done?
1
SPEAKER_00
You've done because in a hotel they've seen every every kind of sort of crazy thing you could imagine And they just go Oh God What is it he goes
1
SPEAKER_00
 I'm just going to be another self-centered person looking for a free upgrade.
1
SPEAKER_00
And they're like, oh, my God.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's it?
1
SPEAKER_00
That's it.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's it?
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
And they're immediately through the roof.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I start checking it in and listening and saying, hey, you know what?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I tell you what.
1
SPEAKER_00
Let me give you this room.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's on the exclusive floor.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's in a presidential suite.
1
SPEAKER_00
President ain't coming, so I'm going to give you the president.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right, right, right.
1
SPEAKER_00
I know the president ain't coming tonight.
1
SPEAKER_00
We're holding a suite for him just in case.
1
SPEAKER_00
You can have it.
1
SPEAKER_00
He's not going to be here.
1
SPEAKER_02
 I remember from our interview the last time, I think if my memory is right, you would say one of the strategies is leading with like being challenging in a certain way or I'm going to be like, I'm going to be demanding a lot.
1
SPEAKER_02
Isn't that something that you taught?
1
SPEAKER_00
A little bit.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
That way.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'm going to, if, if, if I know you're going to react negatively to my ask,
1
SPEAKER_00
 I will give you a preview that makes it look worse than what it's going to be.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
So what do you call that framework?
1
SPEAKER_00
For lack of a better term, it's emotional anchoring.
1
SPEAKER_00
Emotional anchoring.
1
SPEAKER_00
Emotional anchoring.
1
SPEAKER_00
We don't do price anchoring.
1
SPEAKER_00
 You know, but we'll do emotional anchoring.
1
SPEAKER_00
If you're not going to like what I have to say, I'm going to say, look, you're not going to like this.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's what it is.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then I'm going to shut up because your amygdala is going to kick into gear and you're going to think that I'm going to insult you, your parentage, your family, your genealogy, your parents, everything.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because the amygdala is going to go into overdrive.
1
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
1
SPEAKER_00
So whatever I ask for after that is going to be relief.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And I'm doing that also because I need to keep an eye on how you feel when we're done.
1
SPEAKER_00
Not as much how you feel at the start, but how you feel when we're done.
1
SPEAKER_02
So you want someone to be, it's okay if they start off in a lower energetic,
1
SPEAKER_02
 or negative attitude, as long as when you finish, they feel like, okay, it got better over time.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you feel good at the end.
1
SPEAKER_00
The last impression is a lasting impression.
1
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
1
SPEAKER_00
And that's unavoidable.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's what we refer to as a law of gravity.
1
SPEAKER_00
We have gravity, we can't explain why gravity works.
1
SPEAKER_00
 But you're still not going to step off the balcony because gravity's there.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right.
1
SPEAKER_00
The last impression is a lasting impression, no matter what.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I need to, more than anything else, make sure that the last impression is positive or at least feels collaborative.
1
SPEAKER_02
Let's say you've...
1
SPEAKER_02
 been in a negotiation with someone, or you're a business partner with someone, or you've been in a long negotiation for six months with someone, either one.
1
SPEAKER_02
You've been a business partner, working together for a year or two, or you've been trying to find a deal with someone else for a year or two.
1
SPEAKER_02
And both options have taken too long that you haven't been getting the results you want, and you feel like you've been taken advantage of a little bit.
1
SPEAKER_02
Let's just say that.
1
SPEAKER_02
 How do you, and it's going, it started off good, and it's going the opposite way.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's getting worse and worse.
1
SPEAKER_02
How do you finalize it so that it goes back to a high or a higher mark, leaving you feeling better and leaving the other person feeling better?
1
SPEAKER_00
Or you get out of it.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, or you just get out of it.
1
SPEAKER_02
But you just say, okay, I'm done, bye, I don't wanna talk to you.
1
SPEAKER_02
How do you not burn a bridge if you're in that situation?
1
SPEAKER_00
I'd probably say some of the effective, look,
1
SPEAKER_02
 You're not going to like this.
1
SPEAKER_02
So you start with the emotional anchoring.
1
SPEAKER_02
Right.
1
SPEAKER_02
Interesting.
1
SPEAKER_02
This isn't working for me.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I can't do it anymore.
1
SPEAKER_00
And my problem here has been that I like you.
1
SPEAKER_00
I've always liked you.
1
SPEAKER_00
And the stuff that we've done together successfully has been phenomenal.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And I would like nothing better than at some point in time, in the future, for us to be able to get back to that.
1
SPEAKER_00
But for right now, in order to preserve the memories of the positive things we've done, I'm out now.
1
SPEAKER_02
Wow.
1
SPEAKER_02
How do I remember that so every time I'm in a situation I can say that same thing?
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, it's a little bit of a sequence.
1
SPEAKER_00
And the sequence is...
1
SPEAKER_00
 We need to stop what we're doing right now.
1
SPEAKER_00
But if we're going to stop what we're doing right now, what everybody thinks of is, where is this going in the future?
1
SPEAKER_00
So I've got to create a point in time for the future that we're both happy with.
1
SPEAKER_02
 So there's still a bridge.
1
SPEAKER_00
There's still an opportunity for the future.
1
SPEAKER_02
Potential.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, maybe it's a year.
1
SPEAKER_02
Maybe it's never going to happen, but you keep it open.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'm open to it.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I'm finishing positively, but I am finishing.
1
SPEAKER_00
Interesting, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because the last words that I, the last two sentences, maybe even just the last sentence, are going to ring in your ears over and over and over and over.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because that's what your brain is always going to go back to, the last impression.
1
SPEAKER_00
 How do I make you feel at the end?
1
SPEAKER_00
I make you feel valued.
1
SPEAKER_00
And you're going to appreciate the fact that I walked away without calling you names.
1
SPEAKER_00
But I walked away.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's hard to do.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, it's hard to get you practicing.
1
SPEAKER_00
You got to practice, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, you work on it a few times.
1
SPEAKER_00
Most of the time what people have at the end is,
1
SPEAKER_00
 The battle for the last word is when the last word is a cheap shot.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right.
1
SPEAKER_00
Screw you too.
1
SPEAKER_02
Hang up.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I'm going to call you back to say screw you right back and then I'm going to hang up.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
There's a battle of the last word's a problem and the last word's a cheap shot.
1
SPEAKER_00
But when the last word is a positive thing.
1
SPEAKER_00
 It's not a problem.
1
SPEAKER_02
So always end with positive words.
1
SPEAKER_02
Even if you feel taken advantage of, even if they hurt you, even if they screwed you over, whatever, you should always try to end in a positive way.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, without question.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because if you're talking to them, then your goal was to resolve things and to have a great relationship.
1
SPEAKER_00
Now you might say that at the very beginning of the interaction.
1
SPEAKER_00
 But it's more important to say it at the end.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, my goal was always to have a great relationship with you.
1
SPEAKER_00
And if we can get out of this dynamic, that would be my goal again.
1
SPEAKER_00
But right now I'm out.
1
SPEAKER_00
But understand that at any point in time when we can go back to working collaboratively, I'd love to do it.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, that's good.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
So usually what it is is take what you said at the beginning and at least say it again at the end.
1
SPEAKER_02
That's good.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I like that.
1
SPEAKER_02
 What is something that you did as a hostage negotiator with terrorists around the world that you use today in just common interactions?
1
SPEAKER_02
Is there something that you did at the height of this intense conversation that you do on a daily basis?
1
SPEAKER_02
Pretty much everything we've been talking about.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'm going to make a verbal observation on how they're processing things.
1
SPEAKER_02
 It seems like it sounds like, it feels like, you know, say all those things.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's the bread and butter of great hostage negotiations.
1
SPEAKER_00
Really?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's having them be seen or heard.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
Feeling understood.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, people are taking actions to make a point.
1
SPEAKER_00
What happens if you can make the point without taking the action?
1
SPEAKER_02
 they're taking actions to make a point.
1
SPEAKER_02
And you're saying you don't need to take that action because I hear you.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, let me see what happens if I can, and it makes no sense at all, but I'm going to take
1
SPEAKER_00
 probably 90% of a terrorist's agenda away just by making him feel hurt, making him or her feel hurt.
1
SPEAKER_00
Then I'll deal with whatever I have to afterwards.
1
SPEAKER_00
But let's say I could only take away 10% of their agenda by making them feel hurt.
1
SPEAKER_00
What if I could only take away 1% of their actions by making them feel hurt?
1
SPEAKER_00
That's worth the investment to me.
1
SPEAKER_01
 In this next session, you'll hear from Abby Pomporis, who is a member of the most prestigious protection force in the world for over 12 years, serving on the Secret Service's Presidential Protective Division for President Barack Obama and First Lady Michelle Obama.
1
SPEAKER_01
She has also protected Presidents George Bush Jr., Bill Clinton, and George Bush Sr.
1
SPEAKER_01
 Evie also worked complex criminal investigations, operated undercover, and was an interrogator for the agency's elite polygraph unit, specially trained in the art of lie detection, human behavior, and cognitive influence.
1
SPEAKER_01
In this section, we discuss top-level characteristics Evie noticed from some of the past presidents she's worked with, how to read people now while wearing masks, and with social distancing.
1
SPEAKER_01
 knowing the difference between someone who is lying or telling the truth and how she's able to get people to trust her during an interrogation.
1
SPEAKER_05
There's no easy way to read people.
1
SPEAKER_05
It's work.
1
SPEAKER_05
It's studying the person, understanding human behavior, knowing that person, paying attention to their mannerisms.
1
SPEAKER_05
So like when I speak, I
1
SPEAKER_05
 I use illustrators when I speak.
1
SPEAKER_05
So if I'm telling you a story, I went here last night, I did this, I saw that.
1
SPEAKER_05
Now you ask me something, you know, Evy, is this your favorite podcast?
1
SPEAKER_05
Which it is.
1
SPEAKER_02
I don't know.
1
SPEAKER_02
Right?
1
SPEAKER_05
But I start, you know, I put my hands down and I change my mannerisms.
1
SPEAKER_05
Now I'm stoic.
1
SPEAKER_05
I'm not moving.
1
SPEAKER_05
In fact, people who do lie tend to move less actually.
1
SPEAKER_05
 Because I'm working, I'm working, this is work.
1
SPEAKER_05
So I'm not, I'm thinking, I'm focused.
1
SPEAKER_05
So there's all those indicators that do help you kind of filter out what's going on with the other person.
1
SPEAKER_02
So using body language and being more expressive hides the lie, if you are lying?
1
SPEAKER_05
 if you're usually, not all, like I wanna be, you know, cause some people that don't use a lot of maneuvers, they're always stoic.
1
SPEAKER_05
And so that's just what they are all the time.
1
SPEAKER_05
But if you have someone who is illustrative, who's always talking with their hands, and now you ask them a question that they're uncomfortable with, or they wanna lie to you about, you'll see less movement in the body.
1
SPEAKER_02
 What would be three questions, if you could only ask three questions to a human being to figure out if they're telling a lie or telling the truth?
1
SPEAKER_01
How would you start those three questions?
1
SPEAKER_01
What would they be?
1
SPEAKER_05
Ted.
1
SPEAKER_05
T-E-D.
1
SPEAKER_05
Tell me, explain, describe.
1
SPEAKER_05
Then I would fill in the rest.
1
SPEAKER_05
Tell me... Tell me what you did last night.
1
SPEAKER_05
 rather than, who did you out with last night?
1
SPEAKER_05
Or were you with Sam last night?
1
SPEAKER_05
So tell me what you did last night.
1
SPEAKER_05
Explain to me how important this relationship is to you.
1
SPEAKER_05
Describe to me what you want in this business partnership.
1
SPEAKER_05
 Those questions allow people to tell a story.
1
SPEAKER_05
So if you really want to read somebody, you want them to tell you a story.
1
SPEAKER_05
So the more I can get you to tell me a story, I hear you, I'm watching you, I'm getting your mannerisms down, everything.
1
SPEAKER_05
But then you're also telling me what is important to you, what is of value to you.
1
SPEAKER_05
 And then when you do that now, I don't have to sit there and guess and figure out, oh, how should I start my business pitch with Lewis?
1
SPEAKER_05
You already told me the things you like.
1
SPEAKER_05
And so I can come in and speak to you in an intelligent way rather than trying to guess what to say.
1
SPEAKER_05
So ideally, when you start a conversation, and this could be for anything, it's not just catching a lie.
1
SPEAKER_05
This is really just trying to start a conversation.
1
SPEAKER_05
TED, T-E-D, tell me, explain, describe.
1
SPEAKER_05
You start big.
1
SPEAKER_05
 you get people talking and telling you stuff, even though you're like, I want to know this specific thing.
1
SPEAKER_05
But if I ask the specific thing, this person's going to shut down on me.
1
SPEAKER_05
So I can't go straight for that.
1
SPEAKER_05
So what you do is you narrow it, you get closer, you get, you go from vague to, you know, more, you know, accurate, more accurate to then in the end, you get to that direct question because you've worked them to that point.
1
SPEAKER_05
So for example,
1
SPEAKER_05
 if you had a case where somebody was murdered or killed, right?
1
SPEAKER_05
And you had a suspect, you wouldn't say, did you kill her?
1
SPEAKER_05
You would never say that.
1
SPEAKER_05
In fact, you wouldn't get there to like maybe two hours into the conversation.
1
SPEAKER_05
That's like, you get there, it's over time because it's a serious thing.
1
SPEAKER_05
It's an ugly word.
1
SPEAKER_05
And you know, I might not even say, did you kill her?
1
SPEAKER_05
Did you hurt her?
1
SPEAKER_05
 Did you harm her?
1
SPEAKER_05
Did something happen?
1
SPEAKER_05
So I would never ask it that way.
1
SPEAKER_05
You get the person to give you admissions.
1
SPEAKER_05
Like for example, yes, I was there.
1
SPEAKER_05
I was at the house.
1
SPEAKER_05
Or yes, I did this.
1
SPEAKER_05
You want them to give you a little bit.
1
SPEAKER_05
And then eventually you get more admissions, more admissions.
1
SPEAKER_05
You start to paint a picture.
1
SPEAKER_05
And then you never actually have to ask them, did you kill?
1
SPEAKER_05
They eventually tell you.
1
SPEAKER_02
So you were at the scene.
1
SPEAKER_02
You were there at the same time.
1
SPEAKER_02
You were holding the knife.
1
SPEAKER_02
 They tell you all of it.
1
SPEAKER_05
But you walk them through that process.
1
SPEAKER_05
And so when you watch these TV shows or when you ask somebody a direct question and you want a direct answer and you don't get it, this is why.
1
SPEAKER_05
It's work.
1
SPEAKER_05
It's a lot of work to connect with people, read people.
1
SPEAKER_05
And I think society makes it seem like do these three tricks and you'll have people eating out of your hand.
1
SPEAKER_05
And it doesn't work.
1
SPEAKER_05
It's not true.
1
SPEAKER_05
 And this is why people struggle because they're looking for the easy way when it's really about human behavior, the person across from you, like understanding them, being curious.
1
SPEAKER_05
Curiosity is wonderful.
1
SPEAKER_05
So let them tell you stuff, ask questions because you're curious, and then you'll get more information rather than trying to go for like exactly what you want to know.
1
SPEAKER_05
And then the other thing too that helps with conversations is something called adaptability.
1
SPEAKER_05
 which a lot of people don't have.
1
SPEAKER_05
Like if I have a conversation with you and I specifically want to know one thing, but you want to tell me a whole other story around it, people don't have the patience.
1
SPEAKER_05
And so like, no, no, no, no, no.
1
SPEAKER_05
We're talking about something else.
1
SPEAKER_05
Like stick to the topic.
1
SPEAKER_05
And when you do that, you break a rapport, you hurt the conversation.
1
SPEAKER_05
So a part of it is being patient.
1
SPEAKER_05
Let them take you a little bit on a journey
1
SPEAKER_05
 and then slowly you can bring them back to where you want but sometimes we come in so rigid no no I have to talk about this this is the topic and you're not able to adapt so adaptability is being is allowing a person to take you where they want to go letting somebody sit in the driver's seat for a little bit
1
SPEAKER_02
 Tell me about a characteristic of a president that wowed you the most.
1
SPEAKER_02
Obviously they were all inspiring in some way, I'm assuming, for you, but tell me about a characteristic or a belief, a mindset, an approach, a strategy that one of them used that wowed you.
1
SPEAKER_05
I liked, there's a couple, there's like little things.
1
SPEAKER_05
I'll tell you, former President George Bush, senior.
1
SPEAKER_05
 He used to write note cards to everybody.
1
SPEAKER_05
He wrote note cards, thank you so much.
1
SPEAKER_05
He would just send little note cards to people.
1
SPEAKER_05
And I saw what an impact that made to people to receive a handwritten note, he hand wrote it, from someone saying thank you, I appreciate you.
1
SPEAKER_05
 And to this day, I do that.
1
SPEAKER_05
And I took that from President George Bush, because I saw that and I was like, what a wonderful thing.
1
SPEAKER_05
And I saw how much of an impact that did.
1
SPEAKER_05
It was a very little thing, but I took that from him.
1
SPEAKER_05
So whenever I meet someone or there's an exchange or something, I will write a handwritten note card.
1
SPEAKER_05
Thank you for your time.
1
SPEAKER_05
I appreciate it.
1
SPEAKER_05
And it does a lot.
1
SPEAKER_02
Did he write you a card?
1
SPEAKER_05
 He did not write me a card.
1
SPEAKER_05
He wasn't my full-time protectee, but I watched.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, you watched him actually write it for other people?
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
Or you saw other people get it?
1
SPEAKER_02
Both.
1
SPEAKER_05
You would see them when they would work, and you would know what they did or didn't do.
1
SPEAKER_05
But that's what he did.
1
SPEAKER_05
And other characteristics, I think, I liked President Obama.
1
SPEAKER_05
I liked the way he spoke.
1
SPEAKER_05
And for me, that was very, I appreciated that because I
1
SPEAKER_05
 Although I was an agent and an interviewer, I didn't know how to speak for myself.
1
SPEAKER_05
It's weird, right?
1
SPEAKER_05
I could speak on behalf of the government and the law and all that, but I never paid attention to the way I spoke to people.
1
SPEAKER_05
And what I loved, you could hear him, you could hear him.
1
SPEAKER_05
Usually you call Renegade, I could say it, it's public, it's in his book, Renegade on the move, right?
1
SPEAKER_05
You could hear the agent say that, but you could hear him.
1
SPEAKER_05
 You could hear him, you could, I love the way he echoed his voice and projected his voice and didn't hold it back.
1
SPEAKER_05
And how he took his time to speak.
1
SPEAKER_05
Where a lot of people speak very fast because we feel that we're not worthy of somebody's time.
1
SPEAKER_05
I don't want to take up too much of your time, so I'm going to speak fast.
1
SPEAKER_05
 We do that, we feel like, let me just hurry up and say this, this person's probably busy, they have things to do.
1
SPEAKER_05
And then he really projected his voice, like it boomed through the hallways.
1
SPEAKER_05
And that was a person who was not shy of being present, of taking a space and letting you know, I'm here and my voice is relevant.
1
SPEAKER_05
I like that.
1
SPEAKER_02
That's powerful.
1
SPEAKER_05
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_02
Any other characteristics from anyone else?
1
SPEAKER_05
 There's so many.
1
SPEAKER_02
The ones that wowed you?
1
SPEAKER_05
They all did.
1
SPEAKER_05
They were all great.
1
SPEAKER_05
George Washington.
1
SPEAKER_05
George Washington, oh my God.
1
SPEAKER_02
How old are you?
1
SPEAKER_05
GW, President George Bush.
1
SPEAKER_05
I love going to the ranch with him.
1
SPEAKER_05
 I'm from New York City, I go to Texas.
1
SPEAKER_05
And I was just like, what the, you know, it was like, we were out in the wild.
1
SPEAKER_05
He's like, we're going, we're gonna make trails.
1
SPEAKER_05
I was like, why are we gonna make trails?
1
SPEAKER_05
There's a road right there.
1
SPEAKER_05
You know, we'd cut trails and hike.
1
SPEAKER_05
And he was very authentic.
1
SPEAKER_05
Who he was on camera was who he was off camera and vice versa.
1
SPEAKER_05
He was very just real.
1
SPEAKER_05
And so you'd see these qualities with different people and
1
SPEAKER_05
 You know, it's kind of interesting, I just thought of it.
1
SPEAKER_05
I was almost like in my own school of greatness by being in the White House and then over all the years of about, you're around all these people, these influential leaders, despite, forget politics, it still takes a person of some... To get there.
1
SPEAKER_05
Yes, to get there.
1
SPEAKER_05
And so you watch them, and then not just them, they've got cabinet members, other individuals who,
1
SPEAKER_05
 you watch and you listen to, you see how they problem solve.
1
SPEAKER_05
And I was in my own school of greatness where I just got to be front row and you're doing your job at the same time you're like, you're listening, you're watching, you're absorbing.
1
SPEAKER_05
I loved it.
1
SPEAKER_02
 Were there any strategies you witnessed or watched or observed from them telling you or not telling you on how they commanded respect and authority in just their way of being, tonality, was it touching people in their hand, is it whatever it is?
1
SPEAKER_02
Eye contact, what were the things that they did or that some of them did that really stood out to you?
1
SPEAKER_05
 So I'll tell you this, they didn't have to work as hard.
1
SPEAKER_02
Because they're already the authority.
1
SPEAKER_05
Because they're already the authority.
1
SPEAKER_05
So you don't, so I want to say that, like they don't, the president can look at you and be like, hey, how you doing?
1
SPEAKER_05
And then like blow you off and you're like, oh my God, I got like a whole solid second.
1
SPEAKER_05
Whereas when they're talking to me or you, it's just like, he only gave me a second, right?
1
SPEAKER_05
So they don't have to work as hard.
1
SPEAKER_05
So even the little attention they give you lands on you.
1
SPEAKER_05
However though, eye contact is huge.
1
SPEAKER_05
 When you talk to someone and you want to convey, hey, trust me, rapport, this is huge.
1
SPEAKER_05
In fact, if you go to the supermarket and you look at cereal boxes,
1
SPEAKER_05
 They have cartoon characters on the cereal boxes.
1
SPEAKER_02
They're looking at you.
1
SPEAKER_05
You know where a lot of them look down?
1
SPEAKER_05
They're looking down.
1
SPEAKER_05
You know who they're looking down?
1
SPEAKER_05
You'll see cereal boxes where the character looks down.
1
SPEAKER_01
At the cereal.
1
SPEAKER_05
No.
1
SPEAKER_05
I'm a cereal box, right?
1
SPEAKER_05
I'm the Trix rabbit or whatever, right?
1
SPEAKER_05
Now, you go shopping.
1
SPEAKER_05
I'm not looking at you.
1
SPEAKER_05
I'm looking down.
1
SPEAKER_05
Why am I looking down?
1
SPEAKER_02
 The rabbit's looking down.
1
SPEAKER_05
Right, the rabbit's looking down.
1
SPEAKER_05
At the kids.
1
SPEAKER_05
Thank you.
1
SPEAKER_02
Wow.
1
SPEAKER_05
Because the kid's the consumer.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, not the adult.
1
SPEAKER_02
No, the kid's going to say, mom, come grab me.
1
SPEAKER_05
Mom, buy that for me.
1
SPEAKER_02
Oh my gosh.
1
SPEAKER_05
So they design them to actually look down.
1
SPEAKER_05
And they also put them at a certain level.
1
SPEAKER_05
And so maybe an adult serial, they'll have the person looking at higher up because they're looking at the adult.
1
SPEAKER_05
Eye contact is huge.
1
SPEAKER_05
It conveys, trust me.
1
SPEAKER_05
 Talk to me.
1
SPEAKER_05
I'm here.
1
SPEAKER_05
I'm connected with you.
1
SPEAKER_05
Even when you want to listen to people.
1
SPEAKER_05
Normally we do break eye contact, but good communicators will lock in.
1
SPEAKER_05
They're not uncomfortable.
1
SPEAKER_05
They're there.
1
SPEAKER_05
I'm with you.
1
SPEAKER_05
I'm connected with you.
1
SPEAKER_05
That is huge.
1
SPEAKER_05
But you touched on literally touching people.
1
SPEAKER_05
 and you would see a tactic.
1
SPEAKER_05
I don't want to say a tactic, but no, it's a tactic.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's a strategy.
1
SPEAKER_05
It's a strategy.
1
SPEAKER_05
It's, you know, hey, you know, Lewis, and, you know, and maybe I like to touch your forearm.
1
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_05
You can do that.
1
SPEAKER_05
But I will say today.
1
SPEAKER_04
You can't do that.
1
SPEAKER_05
Today is very different.
1
SPEAKER_05
You know, they would teach us that.
1
SPEAKER_05
They're like, hey, you can touch the top of a person's knee and just be like, hey, and I could be like, whoa, I don't want to touch.
1
SPEAKER_05
So now,
1
SPEAKER_05
 I would actually go against that.
1
SPEAKER_05
I would actually encourage people not to do that just simply because you don't know how it's going to be received and now today it's you got to be a little bit less is more with that.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I mean shaking your hand maybe that's it.
1
SPEAKER_02
 I think so.
1
SPEAKER_02
A second hand on the top, like a genuine heartfelt for two seconds and then let it go.
1
SPEAKER_05
Yeah, I think so.
1
SPEAKER_05
I think so.
1
SPEAKER_05
You want to respect people's space.
1
SPEAKER_05
It's a little bit different.
1
SPEAKER_05
I think we have more, well, we do have more social space now.
1
SPEAKER_05
It's interesting how that's going to change the dynamics of how we interact in the future.
1
SPEAKER_02
Interesting.
1
SPEAKER_02
How do you build that trust without being present and more connected and touching and
1
SPEAKER_05
 Right, and you have a mask, you can't even see the lower portion of a person's face, which conceals their expressions, their gestures, so it's even harder to read them.
1
SPEAKER_02
So how do we read people like that?
1
SPEAKER_02
Is it more body language then, of like, shoulders down as opposed to- It's harder.
1
SPEAKER_05
In person's always better, and obviously if you're on Zoom, you can see the person, but the tone, the inflection of the voice, does it change, does it not?
1
SPEAKER_05
The body posture.
1
SPEAKER_05
Again, sometimes it's just as simple as how they say something.
1
SPEAKER_05
 you know, the way they deliver a story.
1
SPEAKER_05
For example, when I worked cases, sometimes I did interviews and interrogations and I would be asked to help local police departments sometimes.
1
SPEAKER_05
And they'd say, look, we have this case and we've got three suspects, but we can't figure out who it is.
1
SPEAKER_05
 And I would, you know, I'd always want to interview the person I thought it was.
1
SPEAKER_05
And so I would say, send me, do you have statements?
1
SPEAKER_05
And they say, yes.
1
SPEAKER_05
And I'd say, send me the statements that they wrote.
1
SPEAKER_02
Written statements.
1
SPEAKER_05
Written statements.
1
SPEAKER_02
About what they said, their stories.
1
SPEAKER_05
Their stories, correct.
1
SPEAKER_05
Because these are people typically that had been already interviewed by local police.
1
SPEAKER_05
They got nothing.
1
SPEAKER_05
They have no proof.
1
SPEAKER_05
So they would.
1
SPEAKER_05
 reach out and they say, look, you guys are polygraph examiners.
1
SPEAKER_05
You have a bit more expertise in this.
1
SPEAKER_05
Will you help us out?
1
SPEAKER_05
It's an important case.
1
SPEAKER_05
And so I say, send me their statements.
2
SPEAKER_00
 And so I'd look at their statements, and based on their statements, I would be able sometimes, most of the time, to tell who likely did it.
2
SPEAKER_00
 And it was those statements that, and this also happens when we speak, when you ask somebody, what did you do yesterday?
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, they deliver a beautiful story to you that has a beginning, a middle, and an end.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's an arc.
2
SPEAKER_00
When it's a story, it's an arc, it's typically manufactured.
2
SPEAKER_01
That's a lie, usually.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes, because we don't typically talk about our stuff like that.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so when I would read a story, I would read a statement, and if I read like a story,
2
SPEAKER_00
 Because the person's like, the liar's like, oh, I got to write a story.
2
SPEAKER_00
I got to tell them what I did here, then did here.
2
SPEAKER_00
They're manufacturing it.
2
SPEAKER_00
A truthful person is going to write how their day went.
2
SPEAKER_00
And a truthful person also makes spontaneous corrections.
2
SPEAKER_00
So it contradicts what a lot of people think in that if I correct myself as I'm telling you something,
2
SPEAKER_00
 Then it looks like I'm hiding something.
2
SPEAKER_00
It looks like I'm, yes, I'm correcting myself because I'm hiding something.
2
SPEAKER_00
I can't remember my lie.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it's actually not true.
2
SPEAKER_01
Those are the honest ones.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, actually, that was a mistake.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's a spontaneous correction.
2
SPEAKER_00
When it's unsolicited and somebody you're speaking to, or even in writing, you'll see a scribble.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
If it's a spontaneous correction, meaning they're correcting themselves as they're speaking to you, it indicates truthfulness.
2
SPEAKER_01
 Hmm, that's an interesting little...
2
SPEAKER_00
 Yes.
2
SPEAKER_00
And also too, like a little one, when somebody uses quotes, when they talk to you, they'll say, oh, he said, and quote, you know, they'll tell you something somebody said in quotes, like he said, you know, this in quotes, that's also a truthful.
2
SPEAKER_01
The air quotes.
2
SPEAKER_01
The air quotes.
2
SPEAKER_01
When someone uses that, not on the written paper quotes, but the air quotes.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, even in both, yes.
2
SPEAKER_01
Someone uses quotes.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I read, they said this, that means they're telling more likely the truth.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_00
Why is that?
2
SPEAKER_00
Because they're, they're, um, they're being very specific.
2
SPEAKER_00
 We also know based on the research, people who lie, lie vaguely.
2
SPEAKER_00
Remember I said, it's work, it's hard work, it's you're trying to create a lie, tell a lie, remember the lie, listen to the person speaking to you, think about what you wanna say, there's so much going on.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so what they do is they lie vaguely because it's too hard for me to remember all these details, create all these details, it's just too much, it's a heavy cognitive load.
2
SPEAKER_01
 I heard one time in one of these books or somewhere that when you say, I did not, as opposed to I didn't do it.
2
SPEAKER_01
When you're like more specific of like, I did not do this.
2
SPEAKER_01
Is that generally speaking more untruthful?
2
SPEAKER_01
I'm thinking of a famous president that said, I did not commit these sexual relations.
2
SPEAKER_00
 Well, we know he was dishonest.
2
SPEAKER_00
But okay, so you said that statement.
2
SPEAKER_00
I did not.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so it is true.
2
SPEAKER_00
Most people like when... Did you have pizza this morning for breakfast?
2
SPEAKER_02
No.
2
SPEAKER_00
 You're not gonna be like, Evie, I did not have pizza this morning for breakfast, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
You're not gonna work so hard.
2
SPEAKER_00
So when people lie, they work very hard sometimes to sell you the lie.
2
SPEAKER_01
Telling the full story.
2
SPEAKER_00
Think of a car salesman.
2
SPEAKER_00
How hard do they work you?
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, oh, you gotta get this.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is great.
2
SPEAKER_00
So when people work that hard, um,
2
SPEAKER_00
 it's likely that there's some deception there.
2
SPEAKER_00
But if I'm just like, no, and go pound sand, I didn't do it, and I don't, you know, the truth is typically simple, no.
2
SPEAKER_00
But if that person, though, in their everyday speech always speaks like that, that's where you wanna be careful.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because maybe I'm that person who does that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Or another thing that people say are to be weary of is like when people start off with a sentence saying, honestly, honestly, I would never do that,
2
SPEAKER_01
 Truthfully, this would never happen.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
But if I use that in my conversation, I sprinkle that all the time into the way I speak if it's part of my language.
2
SPEAKER_00
 then I'm not lying, it's just the way I color my language.
2
SPEAKER_01
So that's why it's good to use the TED approach to talk for 20, 30 minutes to see how they normally talk.
2
SPEAKER_01
How do they speak?
2
SPEAKER_00
What are their mannerisms?
2
SPEAKER_00
And you can ask them truthful questions about something where maybe they have to remember something, tell you something that you know is truthful rather than just how they feel.
2
SPEAKER_00
 And that'll give you indication of like, so you know for sure they're telling me the truth here.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, tell us about how it was coming in this morning or something very simple.
2
SPEAKER_00
You can ask questions that are benign.
2
SPEAKER_00
They don't evoke anything.
2
SPEAKER_01
It's not a yes or no answer.
2
SPEAKER_00
No, they don't evoke anything.
2
SPEAKER_00
However, though,
2
SPEAKER_00
 Evocation, so we're rolling into all these techniques, is very good when you have someone who is reluctant to speak with you, when you want to evoke emotion.
2
SPEAKER_00
So when you have somebody that's shut down on you, I may call you a liar because I want you to give me something because you're giving me nothing.
2
SPEAKER_00
 And so this is why it's so important to TED people or to know the person you have across from you.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because if I have a resistant person, I'm going to speak a certain way.
2
SPEAKER_00
If I have a high conflict person, I'm going to speak a certain way.
2
SPEAKER_00
If I have a business relationship and they're amicable, I'm going to speak a different way.
2
SPEAKER_00
If I have someone who's identity based,
2
SPEAKER_00
 This is why really paying attention to the human being across from you matters.
2
SPEAKER_00
Once you do this, and then you're going to know, you're going to start ticking people like up, identity, up, instrumental, up, high conflict, and then you know how to maneuver.
2
SPEAKER_01
Interesting.
2
SPEAKER_01
 What could you test on me right now to see whether I'm lying or telling the truth about something, maybe not some crazy thing, but just... I can't, it won't work because you're telling me to do it, you're prepared for it.
2
SPEAKER_01
That's where when they... Interesting.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes, it doesn't work like that.
2
SPEAKER_01
It won't work, it never works.
2
SPEAKER_00
Never works.
2
SPEAKER_01
Interesting.
2
SPEAKER_00
No, because you know, you're ready, you're gonna lie, you're gonna lock in, you're gonna do everything I just taught you.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, my goal would be to tell the truth and to see if you actually believe it or not.
2
SPEAKER_00
 It has to be organic and it can't be manufactured and I wouldn't go straight for it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Maybe if I wanted to know about your past criminal history when you were younger and there was something that you were, maybe one of those things you really didn't want to talk about and I knew it, then I would try to build rapport and get you to speak about it or
2
SPEAKER_00
 I'd ask you, why don't you want to speak about it?
2
SPEAKER_00
Because sometimes I would have someone, and they're like, look, I don't want to talk about this.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I would say, OK, why don't you want to talk about this?
2
SPEAKER_00
It's OK, you don't have to tell me what it is, but why don't you?
2
SPEAKER_00
And sometimes that was a great way for me to open the door.
2
SPEAKER_00
So if I had somebody who would not confess to a crime,
2
SPEAKER_00
 you know, or whatever, and I would say, could you just tell me why you don't wanna talk about this, or what are you so worried about if this gets out?
2
SPEAKER_00
And I remember one case, one person said, I don't want my wife to find out.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that moment, I was like, he did it, he did it, he did it, he did it, because he just told me why.
2
SPEAKER_00
If he didn't do it, or she didn't do it, that wouldn't be in their mind.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so people can tell you, so you can start there, why don't you wanna talk about this?
2
SPEAKER_00
 Why do you feel this way?
2
SPEAKER_00
What are you worried about?
2
SPEAKER_00
And so that's a different angle from instead of being like, tell me this, go back to how they feel.
2
SPEAKER_00
Go to identity.
2
SPEAKER_00
Tell me what it is you're afraid of.
2
SPEAKER_00
Tell me what you're so worried about.
2
SPEAKER_00
Why do you feel that you can't share this?
2
SPEAKER_00
You don't have to tell me anything.
2
SPEAKER_00
Just tell me what's going on with you.
2
SPEAKER_00
As long as I could keep somebody talking, that's it.
2
SPEAKER_00
You just gotta keep them doing this.
2
SPEAKER_01
 What was your biggest fear as an agent?
2
SPEAKER_00
If we're talking interviews, there's two.
2
SPEAKER_00
If we're talking interviews, I never wanted an innocent person to confess to a crime they never committed.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh man, that's sad.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I was always very, very, very careful.
2
SPEAKER_00
I actually erred on the side.
2
SPEAKER_00
I actually erred more so on the side.
2
SPEAKER_00
I gave more people benefit than the other way around.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because to me, it was worse to have
2
SPEAKER_01
 someone in jail who didn't do it.
2
SPEAKER_01
That is like the worst thing.
2
SPEAKER_01
It's got to be horrible for that person.
2
SPEAKER_00
That was like something that I was very, very, very aware of.
2
SPEAKER_01
How many people do you think are in prison or jail for something they didn't do right now?
2
SPEAKER_00
I think quite a few.
2
SPEAKER_00
 And I think we see it when you look at now the DNA testing that we do, the scientific testing that we do, to see who gave false confessions, to see how people were manipulated and maneuvered.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it's not always because the interviewer is bad, it's because they tend to think, again, law enforcement tends to think most people are deceptive.
2
SPEAKER_00
You come in, Lewis is my guy, I know Lewis is my guy.
2
SPEAKER_00
So now no matter what you say,
2
SPEAKER_00
 Even when you are saying things that are showing your innocence, I'm still focused on you did it.
2
SPEAKER_00
So it's confirmation bias.
2
SPEAKER_00
No matter what you say, I'm going to make it fit the narrative I want, which is you did it.
2
SPEAKER_00
 And so that was a very important thing because I had seen it, I knew how you could do it, and I had people in the room, if they're young, if they're mental health issues, or sometimes you get people in weak moments, or sometimes people see you, you're law enforcement, you're the authority, you're police, I'm supposed to trust you, and they do.
2
SPEAKER_00
 and they don't realize that the law allows for police and law enforcement to use deception in the room to get you to confess.
2
SPEAKER_00
It is legal.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I could say to you, what if I told you I have fingerprints?
2
SPEAKER_00
I got no fingerprints.
2
SPEAKER_00
What if I told you I have fingerprints?
2
SPEAKER_00
What if I told you that, what would you say?
2
SPEAKER_00
I'm lying.
2
SPEAKER_00
I'm using manipulation.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so some of that stuff
2
SPEAKER_00
 It's not, you know, and there's a lot of research and science on this now, like, it's not good.
2
SPEAKER_00
You don't want to lie to people.
2
SPEAKER_00
You wanna try to stay, you really wanna try to read them, understand them, and just get them to talk to you.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that's also important, not just with solving cases, but when you interview victims and witnesses.
2
SPEAKER_00
Sometimes the inability to interview somebody properly affects whether a case gets solved or not.
2
SPEAKER_00
So if I don't know how to effectively interview a witness or a victim,
2
SPEAKER_00
 I can get bad information.
2
SPEAKER_01
How tall are you?
2
SPEAKER_01
5'2.
2
SPEAKER_01
5'2.
2
SPEAKER_01
Mighty 5'2.
2
SPEAKER_01
When you went to be an agent, I'm assuming it was a lot of men when you were there in the start.
2
SPEAKER_01
Is that correct?
2
SPEAKER_01
 Much taller, bigger in general, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
More than 5'2".
2
SPEAKER_01
Did you ever feel insecure or intimidated or a lack of self-confidence being in the position you were in?
2
SPEAKER_00
 No, and I don't know if it was maybe my dad like even though my parents like I had certain issues But I don't know like I never thought about that.
2
SPEAKER_00
I never went in thinking I shouldn't be here I never went in.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I'm a woman.
2
SPEAKER_00
I wouldn't I'm like, oh man.
2
SPEAKER_00
I'm the only woman good for me I really had a different mindset.
2
SPEAKER_00
I Was proud that oh my god, there's only like there's no other women.
2
SPEAKER_00
I'm like good for me if I went to a meeting Yes, I was proud of that fact.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I never looked at it as a negative why?
2
SPEAKER_00
 I'm the only woman.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was just like, good job.
2
SPEAKER_00
So that's how I took it and I was proud of that.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so that kept me going.
2
SPEAKER_00
I didn't think about my gender.
2
SPEAKER_00
I just did my job.
2
SPEAKER_00
And look, will people treat you differently?
2
SPEAKER_00
Will that stuff happen?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes, it will.
2
SPEAKER_00
Whether it's gender, race, that stuff happens.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don't care what anyone says, it happens.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I cannot,
2
SPEAKER_00
 alter myself and I cannot let you, who I know you're wrong anyway, impact me and not do my job well because now psychologically you're in my head.
2
SPEAKER_00
I remember I went to, I usually don't share these stories, but I went to the Air Force Academy in Colorado.
2
SPEAKER_00
President Obama was gonna go speak and I was the agent in charge.
2
SPEAKER_00
 of the outside perimeter of the stadium.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then I was there with several other agents and we're meeting the head person, he was a Colonel, Lieutenant Colonel in the Air Force, I don't remember.
2
SPEAKER_00
So it's me, all male agents, there's about several of us.
2
SPEAKER_01
And you were in charge?
2
SPEAKER_00
I was in charge of the outer perimeter.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes, I was one of the two people in charge.
2
SPEAKER_00
The other agent was in charge of the inner perimeter and then everybody else worked for us.
2
SPEAKER_00
 Not worked for us, they were supporting us.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so the colonel comes and he comes in and so let's say, you know, here's everybody, here are all the agents, I'm in the middle.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the colonel comes and he's like, nice to meet you, nice to meet you, nice to meet you.
2
SPEAKER_00
And this legit happened.
2
SPEAKER_00
I'm right here and it's like.
2
SPEAKER_01
No, he did not.
2
SPEAKER_00
Nice to meet you.
2
SPEAKER_00
He skipped you.
2
SPEAKER_00
He skipped me.
2
SPEAKER_01
And you were in charge.
2
SPEAKER_00
And he was, you know, it shouldn't have even mattered.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so it took everything in me to not be like,
2
SPEAKER_01
 He went over your head.
2
SPEAKER_00
No, he did not.
2
SPEAKER_00
He skipped me.
2
SPEAKER_00
He skipped me.
2
SPEAKER_01
The guy next to you.
2
SPEAKER_00
He assumed I was either a secretary or staff or something.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because he was like, hey, let me talk to the other.
2
SPEAKER_02
Oh, wow.
2
SPEAKER_00
I remember that.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I was just like, does this guy do this?
2
SPEAKER_00
I'm like, this guy just did this.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, I'm having an internal dialogue with me.
2
SPEAKER_00
I said nothing.
2
SPEAKER_00
 I said nothing, I was like, it doesn't matter.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was like, he's gonna find out who's in charge in a couple hours.
2
SPEAKER_00
And he did.
2
SPEAKER_00
Hi, I'm the agent in charge of your outer perimeter.
2
SPEAKER_00
Who's my counterpart and who do I speak to?
2
SPEAKER_01
So you didn't take it personally?
2
SPEAKER_00
I didn't look dumb, he looked dumb.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think, why would I take it personally if somebody is ignorant enough to do that?
2
SPEAKER_00
And why would I want that person's attention or respect?
2
SPEAKER_00
 In my mind I was just like, you can keep all of that.
2
SPEAKER_00
I'm going to go do my job.
2
SPEAKER_00
That's exactly.
2
SPEAKER_00
So you can't, at least for me, I never let it get in my head because it's like I have a job to do, I have a mission to do.
2
SPEAKER_00
And if I allow somebody to get in my head, people will die.
2
SPEAKER_00
I'm not doing that.
2
SPEAKER_01
Were you ever nervous in interviews or interrogations?
2
SPEAKER_00
 In the beginning, I was worried about not being respected.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was worried about, because I didn't want to be an interrogator.
2
SPEAKER_01
I did not want to be one- Not being respected by the- Perpetrator.
2
SPEAKER_01
Perpetrator, not the team.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you're interviewing, oh, the team.
2
SPEAKER_01
Not your team, Secret Service team.
2
SPEAKER_00
No, because at that point, when I became an interrogator, I went to specialized training.
2
SPEAKER_00
They were scared of me.
2
SPEAKER_00
 because then I started doing the polygraphs for new recruits.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so they would tell me all their personal bad stuff that they did.
2
SPEAKER_00
I had all the goods.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then six months later, they see me in the hallway and I'm like, hey, how are you doing?
2
SPEAKER_00
And they're just like, oh my God, she knows all my dirty stuff.
2
SPEAKER_00
So no, after that, people were kind of like, you almost like repel people.
2
SPEAKER_00
But you know, you never speak about that stuff.
2
SPEAKER_00
When people expose themselves like that to you, you don't do that.
2
SPEAKER_01
 So you got nervous a couple of times in the beginning?
2
SPEAKER_00
In the beginning, I didn't want to be an interviewer or an interrogator because I thought nobody would respect me.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was like, these guys are going to see me and they're going to be like... The perpetrators.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes, the perpetrators.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because you're dealing with sometimes really hardened people.
2
SPEAKER_00
And they see you come in and they're like, this girl?
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, you... I really had in my head the image of something else and what you see on television.
2
SPEAKER_00
I didn't know.
2
SPEAKER_00
And
2
SPEAKER_00
 Afterward, I realized that the idea that I didn't look intimidating and that they were not expecting me, they're like, oh, this is a piece of cake.
2
SPEAKER_00
And they sit back, like, what do you want to talk about?
2
SPEAKER_00
I was like, let's talk about anything you want.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then sure enough, admission after admission after admission, to the point like, hey, do you mind just writing all that down for me here, right here?
2
SPEAKER_00
Thank you.
2
SPEAKER_01
 I mean you're probably easier, you're less intimidating to look at maybe in terms of like this big man that you see on TV like in your face.
2
SPEAKER_00
That stuff doesn't work by the way.
2
SPEAKER_00
None of that works.
2
SPEAKER_00
It looks great for TV in real life male or female.
2
SPEAKER_00
 When you impose yourself on someone like that, to that extent, they shut down, they get nervous, they're intimidated, they may tell you anything just to get you to leave them alone.
2
SPEAKER_00
Those are not good tactics.
2
SPEAKER_00
I'm not saying that they're not used by a lot of interviewers and law enforcement.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think they are, because there was moments where I'd do an interview with someone from another department and I'd sit there and I'm like,
2
SPEAKER_01
 This is not the way to do it.
2
SPEAKER_00
It was rough sometimes.
2
SPEAKER_00
But you can't tell somebody, hey, don't do this.
2
SPEAKER_00
I'm in your house.
2
SPEAKER_00
But there were moments where sometimes it was harder.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I usually would do them with either an experienced interrogator from my own agency because we knew how to work together.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's only like 30 of us.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I would say, I want this person for this.
2
SPEAKER_00
 Or if it was like a child pedophile case, we had one guy who I knew was great.
2
SPEAKER_00
I'm like, I want that guy.
2
SPEAKER_00
If it was terrorism, I'd say, I want this guy because he's really good.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I say guy because they're mostly, mostly guys, not all.
2
SPEAKER_00
But even the female interrogators, we had some good ones.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
So what was a time where you felt like, oh, I'm in trouble.
2
SPEAKER_01
I said the wrong thing.
2
SPEAKER_01
I messed up.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like, it's about to go down the wrong way.
2
SPEAKER_01
Was there ever a time like that?
2
SPEAKER_01
Or were you always pretty much in control?
2
SPEAKER_00
 I never felt like that, because it's a conversation.
2
SPEAKER_00
I let it flow.
2
SPEAKER_00
It wasn't very rigid.
2
SPEAKER_00
If I have just an agenda and I have to go from here to here to here to here, that's where adaptability comes in.
2
SPEAKER_00
I didn't go in saying, here's my plan, here's my agenda, and I have to follow this.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because I have to allow the person to go where they want to go.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I may ask them, what did you do last night?
2
SPEAKER_00
Tell me about your night.
2
SPEAKER_00
And now they're telling me about how every night they go to karate.
2
SPEAKER_00
And oh, let me tell you, I started doing karate.
2
SPEAKER_00
And they're telling me this whole,
2
SPEAKER_00
 other story, and I'm thinking, I don't want to know about how you started karate.
2
SPEAKER_00
I want to know about last night.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I would allow them that ability to do that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Or sometimes you have somebody who's worried about it, who's maybe angry that they're there, and I would have to allow them to talk about what they wanted, to get off their chest why they were angry, why they were there, what they were scared of, so that they could get it off their chest and then talk to me.
2
SPEAKER_01
 Were the people that were angry mostly innocent or no?
2
SPEAKER_00
Mixed.
2
SPEAKER_01
Mixed, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
It was a mix.
2
SPEAKER_00
It would go where sometimes usually innocent people would be like, I'm done, I'm leaving.
2
SPEAKER_00
But then sometimes you'd have innocent people be like, no, if I keep talking and I tell the truth, they'll see it.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I can't say it was one or the other, but guilty people tend to like to stay in the room.
2
SPEAKER_01
 Why?
2
SPEAKER_00
Because I've got to convince you.
2
SPEAKER_00
I've got to get you off my back.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, wow.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because you're not going to go away.
2
SPEAKER_00
So you can get up and leave the room, but the investigation is still open.
2
SPEAKER_00
You're coming back.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
I'm still looking at you.
2
SPEAKER_00
So their goal is to get you.
2
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
2
SPEAKER_01
To convince you.
2
SPEAKER_00
Don't look at me anymore.
2
SPEAKER_00
Go look at this other guy.
2
SPEAKER_00
Let me throw some other people your way.
2
SPEAKER_00
 And so that's the goal.
2
SPEAKER_00
So they would stay in the room.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's like the car salesman.
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SPEAKER_00
Always think of the car salesman.
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SPEAKER_00
Working hard, working hard, working hard.
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SPEAKER_00
I don't want you to look at me anymore.
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SPEAKER_00
I want you to look at someone else because you're gonna keep on coming back.
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SPEAKER_00
If I can get you to look at this other person, now I'm good.
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SPEAKER_00
So that's why they usually stay.
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SPEAKER_00
They usually would not leave.
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SPEAKER_00
Guilty people would stay.
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SPEAKER_01
And how would you influence people to trust you and believe you and like you?
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SPEAKER_00
I would be genuine.
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SPEAKER_00
 I would tell them the truth, look, this isn't my case.
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SPEAKER_00
And often, usually it wasn't.
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SPEAKER_00
It's not my case.
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SPEAKER_00
I was like, if you didn't do anything, you didn't do anything.
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SPEAKER_00
If you did do something, I get it.
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SPEAKER_00
We'll work through it.
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SPEAKER_00
 And I was like, I'm here to help in any way I can and to help facilitate.
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SPEAKER_00
And so if you did do something and you're forthcoming and you tell me, I will talk to the prosecutors, I will talk to the investigators, and I will tell them that you were cooperative.
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SPEAKER_00
And I would do that.
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SPEAKER_00
I would keep my word.
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SPEAKER_00
It doesn't hurt me.
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SPEAKER_00
It's not personal.
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SPEAKER_00
 None of my cases were personal, because sometimes people would ask me, when you were done interviewing someone, did you follow that case afterward?
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SPEAKER_00
No, I was done.
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SPEAKER_02
Moving on.
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SPEAKER_00
I never invested myself personally, because I'm not supposed to.
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SPEAKER_00
I'm supposed to be, and I really like this, because they taught us this in the service, you are an objective seeker of the truth.
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SPEAKER_00
 And I walked into every interview room saying, I am an objective seeker of the truth.
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SPEAKER_00
So I don't care that everybody here is telling me he did it.
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SPEAKER_00
I'm going to give this person a chance.
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SPEAKER_00
And I'm gonna look at the evidence, of course, and if I have evidence, like my guy in the hat, who's like, oh no, that's not me.
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SPEAKER_00
I mean, he looks like me.
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SPEAKER_00
What do you do with that?
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SPEAKER_00
Where did you go?
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SPEAKER_00
That was my heavy.
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SPEAKER_00
And I dropped it early too.
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SPEAKER_00
 You're not supposed to drop evidence so early.
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SPEAKER_00
You're supposed to hold it.
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SPEAKER_00
That was my heavy.
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SPEAKER_00
After that, I had nowhere to go.
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SPEAKER_00
No, yes, it's you.
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SPEAKER_00
No, it's not.
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SPEAKER_00
Yes, it's you.
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SPEAKER_00
No, it's not.
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SPEAKER_00
There's nowhere to go.
2
SPEAKER_00
I lost that one.
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SPEAKER_00
That one, I lost.
2
SPEAKER_01
You seem like an extremely confident person from a scale from one to 10, 10 being very confident in general of your life.
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SPEAKER_01
What are you?
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SPEAKER_00
It fluctuates.
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SPEAKER_00
 In certain moments, I feel very confident and centered.
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SPEAKER_00
In other moments, I'm like, what the fuck?
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SPEAKER_00
It fluctuates.
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SPEAKER_00
I think it depends on what it is, what you're going through, what you're dealing with.
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SPEAKER_00
If it's family, like those scales, when it's family, like all these composure things all go out the window, right?
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SPEAKER_00
Or like a whole other thing.
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SPEAKER_00
I think it depends on the situation, but there are moments where, sure, I may lack confidence,
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SPEAKER_00
 Sometimes I would go in and think maybe because I was in such a life or death type of job where I would be like, no one's holding a gun to my head.
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SPEAKER_00
I'm not gonna die.
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SPEAKER_00
I'm gonna go home after this.
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SPEAKER_00
I don't fucking care.
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SPEAKER_00
And that's helped me more than anything.
2
SPEAKER_00
And my ability to curse, usually internally,
2
SPEAKER_00
 Cursing has actually given, gives me a lot of strength.
2
SPEAKER_00
There's actually science behind it, that when you curse, whether outwardly or inwardly, it actually makes you, it empowers you.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, so I'd rather be, I'd rather be like, you know, I've always, and I've always had that, not that it's a good thing, but I always try to use my inside voice instead of being like, woe is me, this person's picking on me, these people are doing this to me, instead of like inside me and be like, fuck them.
2
SPEAKER_01
 You feel more confidence.
2
SPEAKER_00
It shifts it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Instead of me feeling like I'm a victim and I'm being preyed upon, it's just like who do you… Screw that, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think having that part of yourself and the ability to do that, not to intentionally actually hurt someone, but having that part of you inside
2
SPEAKER_00
 You know, my colonel, right, when he did that, that's exactly what echoed inside my head.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, I made sure I'm like, inside voice, inside voice, inside voice.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I was like, it doesn't matter.
2
SPEAKER_00
Instead of me being like, if I let that impact me, then the rest of my assignment, every time I see him, I feel smaller, I'd be affected.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it was just like, this guy, who's this guy?
2
SPEAKER_00
And that allowed me to do my job.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I think for me, that's helped me quite a bit.
2
SPEAKER_01
 If someone listening or watching feels like they lack confidence in most areas of their life, what would you say is the way to overcome self-doubt and build confidence?
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SPEAKER_01
Some things they could do.
2
SPEAKER_00
Stop doing things that you're only comfortable with.
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SPEAKER_00
Take risks.
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SPEAKER_00
Make decisions.
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SPEAKER_00
I think I've noticed that with people who lack confidence, they're quite indecisive.
2
SPEAKER_00
 Indecisiveness is a big thing, and what they will do is they will go take a survey and ask everybody around them, what do you think I should do?
2
SPEAKER_00
What do you think I should do?
2
SPEAKER_00
And you're asking a person who has no ability to
2
SPEAKER_00
 You're asking someone with no expertise about something.
2
SPEAKER_00
It'd be like, love mom, but it'd be like me asking my mom, hey mom, do you think I should do this TV show?
2
SPEAKER_00
And she'd be like, what did you say?
2
SPEAKER_00
What TV show?
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, you're gonna be on TV?
2
SPEAKER_00
I can't ask my mom about a TV business decision.
2
SPEAKER_00
She doesn't have the experience.
2
SPEAKER_00
I can ask her about something else that she does have experience in.
2
SPEAKER_00
 But indecisiveness is key.
2
SPEAKER_01
How does someone build decisiveness?
2
SPEAKER_00
You got to stop asking people what to do and just do it.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then when you make a mistake, own it.
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SPEAKER_00
Fall on your face.
2
SPEAKER_00
The more you fail, the more confident you become.
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SPEAKER_00
You can't fear failure.
2
SPEAKER_00
I have failed, Louis.
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SPEAKER_00
I don't even know.
2
SPEAKER_00
I feel so much.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I look at it like, all right.
2
SPEAKER_00
And once that happens, once the worst thing that could happen to you happens,
2
SPEAKER_00
 and you are still standing, you are still there, you are still breathing, like, ah.
2
SPEAKER_00
That builds resilience.
2
SPEAKER_00
Indecisiveness, knock that out.
2
SPEAKER_00
The minute you're like, let me ask people, stop, choose, don't worry about it, whether you're right or wrong, just do it.
2
SPEAKER_01
 Thank you so much for listening.
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SPEAKER_01
I hope you enjoyed today's episode and inspired you on your journey towards greatness.
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SPEAKER_01
Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links.
2
SPEAKER_01
And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple podcasts as well.
2
SPEAKER_01
 I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most.
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SPEAKER_01
And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.
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SPEAKER_01
And now it's time to go out there and do something great.