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The Therapy for Black Girls podcast is your space to explore mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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I m your host, Dr. Joy Harden-Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, and I can t wait for you to join the conversation every Wednesday.
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Listen to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Take good care, and we ll see you there.
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Bring a little optimism into your life with The Bright Side, a new kind of daily podcast from Hello Sunshine, hosted by me, Danielle Robay.
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And me, Simone Boyce.
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Every weekday, we re bringing you conversations about culture, the latest trends, inspiration, and so much more.
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I am so excited about this podcast, The Bright Side.
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You guys are giving people a chance to shine a light on their lives, shine a light on a little advice that they want to share.
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Listen to The Bright Side on America s number one podcast network, iHeart.
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Open your free iHeart app and search The Bright Side.
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Something that makes me crazy is when people say, well, I had this career before, but it was a waste.
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And that s where the perspective shift comes, that it s not a waste, that everything you ve done has built you to where you are now.
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This is She Pivots, the podcast where we explore the inspiring pivots women have made and dig deeper into the personal reasons behind them.
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Join me, Emily Tish Sussman, every Wednesday on She Pivots.
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Listen to She Pivots on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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It s imperative when you get into a relationship before you commit.
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Who leads and who follows?
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Think about in dancing.
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You can t have two leaders.
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You just can t.
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Think about running a company.
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You can t have two CEOs.
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You have to have that moment of who is leading and who is following.
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Hey everyone, I ve got some huge news to share with you.
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In the last 90 days, 79.4% of our audience came from viewers and listeners that are not subscribed to this channel.
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There s research that shows that if you want to create a habit, make it easy to access.
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By hitting the subscribe button, you re creating a habit of learning how to be happier, healthier, and more healed.
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This would also mean the absolute world to me and help us make better, bigger, brighter content for you in the world.
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Subscribe right now.
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Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed.
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Thanks for tuning in again.
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I m so grateful whether you re watching this live, whether you re listening to me, I appreciate you deeply.
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Today s guest, I believe this is her third time on the show, which is epic.
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It s because she s one of my favorite people offline and I love these online transitions and conversations with her.
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I m speaking about Lisa Bilyeu, an entrepreneur, producer, best-selling author, public speaker, and host.
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Lisa co-founded the billion-dollar brand Quest Nutrition and is co-founder and president of Impact Theory Studios.
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Lisa built a global audience while creating an impressive slate of content that has been viewed over half a billion times.
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This includes Lisa s hit digital series Women of Impact, a show that features extraordinary guests who, through their stories and expertise,
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help viewers build their confidence.
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I ve been lucky enough to be a guest on the show.
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Lisa is one of my dearest friends, and I m so excited to announce that her book is out in paperback right now, Radical Confidence.
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It includes a brand new chapter, so if you want 11 lessons on how to get the relationship, career, and life you want, this is the book to grab.
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If you didn t grab it the first time, now s the time to grab it.
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It s cheaper, too, because it s in paperback.
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Welcome to the show, Lisa Bilio.
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Lisa,
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So good to see you.
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Thank you AJ, my brother from another mother.
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I know, I love it, I love it.
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It s always good, you know, it s like you walked in and we were already having an amazing conversation and then we were like, oh wait, wait, wait, wait, let s, let s, let s start the real podcast.
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Lisa, I think confidence is such a important and powerful topic.
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I wanted to ask you because I think there s so much material and you do so many interviews around confidence and what it means and what it feels like.
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How do you define confidence?
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for you and what does it mean to you and what is something that people can think of because I think everyone has a different view of the word confidence.
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Yeah I think most people actually have the misinterpretation of what confidence actually is because they usually and I was culprit of this when I was a stay-at-home wife for eight years I thought I needed it to get started
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And I thought I needed the confidence to live out my dreams, to actually go towards my goals, and I was waiting to have the confidence.
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And that, I think, is a complete misconception, is what actually is holding so many of us back from trying anything.
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And what I realized was, in my own journey, I actually just need to take action.
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I needed to go into something very insecure, not knowing what I was doing, practicing, practicing, practicing, you know, wax on, wax off, my favorite movie, Karate Kid.
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and get so damn good that I build the competence to then lead to confidence.
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So the truth is the confidence is the byproduct of taking action.
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And a lot of us don t think of it like that.
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We think it s going to be the magic bullet that s going to get us to actually take that action at the beginning.
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And so that s where I actually reshaped and how I rethought of the word confidence.
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And then also for me, confidence is like a muscle.
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If you don t keep practicing it, you won t actually get strong at it.
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And if you stop practicing, you will get weaker.
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And just like when you go to the gym, you may practice like your biceps or your legs.
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It s a different mechanism to practice working your calves than practicing your bicep.
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So that is what confidence is.
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It s not you get confidence in one area.
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And you re good to go.
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It s like, you get confidence maybe in being in front of the camera, but being in front of the camera, as you know, Jay, is very different than being on stage.
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So when someone sees, maybe you ve got confidence in one area, it doesn t mean that you ve got confidence everywhere else.
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And I think people, if it s you and you re thinking about it, you may then think that you re incompetent or you re no good, or like, it s just, well, I don t have the genes, so I may as well not get started.
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But the truth is, identify where you want the confidence, get started, build that competence and then eventually it will breed confidence.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I couldn t agree with you more.
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I remember once looking at the definition of confidence in the dictionary and one of the definitions is an appreciation of one s own abilities, skills and qualities.
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I was like, I really like that definition.
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Like it s actually self-validation.
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Like confidence is being able to look at yourself and say, I m good at this.
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I m actually a kind person.
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I m a thoughtful person.
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I am a good public speaker.
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I am a
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best-selling author, whatever it may be, and you re almost validating a skill, quality, or attribute you have by yourself.
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And I think it s so interesting, and you re right, I think we ve viewed confidence as how do other people feel about us.
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So we look at it as like, oh, that person looks so confident because they re like walking out their car, they got that swag, they re like dripping in great clothes, or whatever it may be, and we see that as confidence.
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but we know that that person could be sitting in there going, oh, I m not the right size, I m overweight, underweight, I m whatever else it may be and criticizing themselves.
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I was wondering, what is something that took you the longest in your life to build confidence around?
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Oh, I m ever evolving, but I think it really was to believe in myself that I m capable.
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And that all started from, because I was a stay-at-home wife for eight years, and I want to just make sure that I say this though, there s nothing wrong with being a stay-at-home wife at all.
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It s actually one of the hardest jobs that was for me, but I didn t want it.
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That actually wasn t my dream.
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It was, I felt like it was sucking the life out of me.
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So as that staying home wife, I didn t make any change because I didn t feel like I was capable of anything because I was so insecure.
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That voice in my head was so negative, Jay, telling me all the reasons why it was no good to try anything.
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And so in order for me to build my confidence to move forward, I was like, well, what if I am bad?
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Who cares?
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You have to actually practice.
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Why do I think that I can be amazing at something, right?
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If someone looks at you and they re like, oh my God, he s such an amazing podcaster.
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How long have you been doing it?
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Years and years and years and years.
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So when someone looks at you and let s say they re comparing their beginning to your middle or your end, you will feel incompetent.
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And so for me, I had to stop looking outside of myself at all the amazing people because I believed I wasn t good enough to try.
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And so I had to build the internal confidence to take that action, to actually just try and understand that it s going to be a process.
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And without that, I never would have got out of what I call purgatory of the mundane, where my life is just mundane enough.
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And so I m just stuck there day in and day out.
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And that idea that even if you don t feel good enough, you can still take action, I think was the biggest thing that was the hardest for me because I didn t want to get bullied.
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I was already bullied as a kid for my looks from other women.
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So you can imagine me trying anything that fear of being bullied from other girls was so petrifying that I didn t even want to take a chance.
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And so realizing I have to build that within myself
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And you said the word validate actually earlier.
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That word really sticks with me because I think a lot of us wait for validation, external validation.
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We wait for someone to tell us that we re a good Greek wife or an amazing husband or a fantastic wife.
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And that can actually hold us where we are.
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Because I was so seeking validation from everybody else.
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And at the time I was getting validation for being that stay at home wife.
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And so you can imagine, I have low self-esteem, I don t believe in myself, I don t think I m good enough, and everyone s validating me for this one thing, even though I don t like that one thing.
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That validation, that feeling good about yourself, is what kept me there.
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So I think the trick is, is how do you make sure that you validate yourself?
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And that became the path for me building my confidence every single day.
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What am I going to do today to validate myself?
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Not get validation from my partner, from my boyfriend, from the ex, how many likes I got on Instagram.
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No, no.
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How can I validate myself?
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And that became my North Star versus everyone else making me feel good about myself.
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Absolutely.
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I mean, how did you get the courage
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to admit to yourself that you weren t happy in that moment.
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Because I feel like a lot of people, friends that I know, people I have in my life,
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will kind of tell themselves the story.
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And we have to, because you have to survive and you need a coping mechanism.
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And we ll just be like, no, I m all right.
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I m okay.
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No, you know, this is life.
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Like, it s all right.
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This is, this is my, you know, this is my lot in life and this is what I have to do.
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And this is just how it is.
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And we say these things because we re scared of what may be on the other side of admitting to ourselves that actually where I am is not where I want to be.
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And we kind of supplement it with
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oh, everyone thinks I m doing all right, so of course I can t be doing that badly.
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How do you kind of get the courage to say, you know what, I don t want this life?
1
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Because I think that statement requires a lot of courage.
1
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And I know I was scared to admit it to myself when I was, I d already left the monastery, I was in a corporate job, it was safe, it was stable, it was sturdy, career progression was obvious.
1
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And here I was going, and by the way, I was so scared I would never get a job after leaving the monastery.
1
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So even having a job,
1
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I was very grateful because no one would give me one.
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So now for me to be like, okay, I need to break this away.
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And everyone s like, wait a minute, you re lucky to have a job, bro.
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You didn t work for three years.
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Like, so how do you, how did you get the courage to admit to yourself, I m not happy here?
1
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Yeah.
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So I love this question because it s such a small dripping effect and I liken it to water dripping on the stone.
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A couple of drops is not a big deal.
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Over time, you do that year after year after year.
1
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What happens to that rock?
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It actually starts to change its shape.
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And that s what I started to realize.
1
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Me ignoring my happiness, ignoring what I actually wanted, started to change the shape of how I saw myself.
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And after eight years, I didn t look like what was looking back at me in the mirror.
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I couldn t recognize myself because I wasn t speaking up.
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I wasn t having my voice.
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And so there were a couple of things I realized that really became like the straw that broke the camel s back, if you will.
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One of them was, I was using gratitude, which I love, right?
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It s like, be grateful for things you have, because there are other people out there that don t have that.
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So the first couple of years from in my marriage, I was using gratitude, even though I didn t want to be the stay at home wife.
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Now that looked like, my God,
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I don t like being a stay, I don t like cooking and cleaning, but actually I m so grateful I have a husband that loves me.
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My God, the amount of people that don t have that healthy relationship, I m so grateful.
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I m so grateful I ve got a roof over my head.
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I m so grateful, fill in the blank.
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And that was wonderful.
1
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But come year four, year five, year six, year seven, that gratitude started to really turn its head into almost toxic gratitude, which every time that voice that was speaking, are you happy, Lisa?
1
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Like, you don t seem happy.
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I would use the gratitude to shut her down.
1
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And that looked like, how ungrateful are you?
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How ungrateful are you that you want something else when you ve got a husband that loves you?
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How ungrateful are you, Lisa, that you want to go out in the workforce when you don t have to?
1
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So that voice, that gratitude, started to become really toxic.
1
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And so identifying that, allowing the voice in my head to just turn up the volume, allow her to actually speak,
1
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because we ve been taught, especially for me growing up Greek Orthodox, is you live in service of everybody else.
1
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You live in service of the family, the husband, the kids, and so you put yourself last.
1
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And I started to realize this voice is getting louder.
1
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What happens if I actually start to listen to her?
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What does that look like?
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Because I m such a self-ownership person.
1
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And so if I m unhappy, what am I going to do about it?
1
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What choices am I going to make different that s going to lead me to a different outcome?
1
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And I started to realize it was all on me.
1
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I hadn t spoken up and told Tom, my husband, that I was unhappy.
1
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So let s just address step one.
1
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Acknowledge Lisa, you re unhappy without shame and guilt.
1
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Acknowledge it to myself.
1
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That was step one.
1
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Then acknowledge it to my husband.
1
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I love you more than life itself, babe, but I don t want to cook for you and clean for you anymore.
1
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Voicing that, having the strength, the courage, you said that earlier, having the courage to really own the way you are instead of sitting in the shame was a massive thing.
1
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And then the final thing is just project your life out.
1
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What does it look like if you don t make a change?
1
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in a year, in five years, in 10 years, in 20 years.
1
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And the truth is, I would have been doing the same thing.
1
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I would have then slipped into being a mother, because that s what my culture told me.
1
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And then I would have slipped into giving over to the children and the husband.
1
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And in 10, 20 years, I m exactly where I am, just on a different scale.
1
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And those elements were the things I m like, oh, well, no one s coming to save you.
1
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No one s going to come and change your life for you.
1
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So what am I going to do right now to make that change?
1
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That resonates so deeply.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I love that you brought up that toxic gratitude point, because it s so interesting how we somehow deep down believe we deserve so little, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, and whether it s conditioning, where we grew up, there s a sense inside of us.
1
SPEAKER_00
And by the way, I can relate to all of that.
1
SPEAKER_00
We grew up in the same area.
1
SPEAKER_00
We ve talked about this before.
1
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Like a block away from each other.
1
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Literally, literally.
1
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And, you know, I kind of,
1
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when people ask me now like you know how how does it feel and everything i m like i actually never in a million years believed that any of this would ever be possible or even that i even had a dream for i don t even think i dreamed this big
1
SPEAKER_00
And there was a part of me that just was okay with whatever would have come and whatever would have been and what everyone around me was doing.
1
SPEAKER_00
And now I see that that was because somewhere deep inside of myself I was hampering my potential, I was restricting my desire because
1
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it s almost like you re so scared that it may never happen that you d rather not allow the possibility.
1
SPEAKER_00
Does that make sense?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
The fear of failure is actually, or failing is actually worse than the fear of failing.
1
SPEAKER_01
So you re like, well, I might as well sit in the fear of failing than actually fail and have everyone see it.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
1
SPEAKER_00
Hey everyone, it s Jay here.
1
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My wife and I have had so much fun creating our own sparkling tea juni, and I ve got big news for you.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s at Target, and we d love your support.
1
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If you can go out, grab a juni, you ll be adding adaptogens and nootropics into your life with mood-boosting properties aimed at promoting a balanced and happy mind.
1
SPEAKER_00
Through our commitment to our wellness journey and striving to fuel our bodies with the healthiest ingredients, it s been our purpose to make healthy choices accessible for all.
1
SPEAKER_00
Which is why Juni is now on shelves at Target.
1
SPEAKER_00
So head to our store locator at drinkjuni.com and find Juni at a Target near you.
1
SPEAKER_00
So for you, what was that like?
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, I guess, how have you dealt with that?
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, you ve been on both ends now.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, you ve been in a place where you didn t even feel like you were allowed to deserve a different life.
1
SPEAKER_00
You ve now built one of the most successful companies.
1
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You ve built another incredible media company.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, you know, it s like you ve now seen the other end.
1
SPEAKER_00
How has your belief system changed around what you deserve and what s possible?
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think it starts with frame of reference.
1
SPEAKER_01
So people don t actually realize that they have a frame of reference.
1
SPEAKER_01
And just to kind of explain frame of reference is just the way you see the world, the way you think it ought to be, not the way it necessarily is.
1
SPEAKER_01
And so my frame of reference can be very different than your frame of reference.
1
SPEAKER_01
And so take, for instance, the very first time I introduced Tom to my family.
1
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So I ve got a very big, loud Greek family and everyone talks over each other, everyone yells at each other.
1
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And so Tom comes and meets them and that s the family, everyone s yelling.
1
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And so we leave and I m like, oh my God, they clearly loved him because they re clearly very comfortable around him.
1
SPEAKER_01
So I can t wait to hear how much he loves my family.
1
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So we get in the car and I m like, babe, what do you think?
1
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And he s like,
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they were so disrespectful.
1
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And I was like, what?
1
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And he s like, I can t believe Lisa.
1
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Everyone s just screaming and yelling at each other.
1
SPEAKER_01
They asked me a question.
1
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They don t listen.
1
SPEAKER_01
Frame of reference.
1
SPEAKER_01
My frame of
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When someone yells and screams like in a happy way, it s actually a sign of greeting you, being comfortable around you.
2
SPEAKER_01
But Tom s frame of reference is when someone s yelling, it means disrespect.
2
SPEAKER_01
So that just gives an example of what frame of reference means.
2
SPEAKER_01
So you don t actually question your frame of reference.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I think that was the massive thing is I still, right now, to this day, will now every day question my frame of reference on the way that I see things, because maybe I m missing something.
2
SPEAKER_01
So being the stay-at-home wife, my frame of reference was, well, this is what a woman does.
2
SPEAKER_01
you re going to have children, you will get married.
2
SPEAKER_01
It didn t even dawn on me, Jay, that I could question whether I want kids or not.
2
SPEAKER_01
It didn t dawn on me.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so going from that to where I am now is because I literally will question my frame of reference every day, because it s your frame of reference that gets in the way of you having the dream.
2
SPEAKER_01
How many people say, I can t?
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SPEAKER_01
I remember once I was coaching somebody
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and they were saying about how they re building this business and this woman she s just had a baby and she freaking loves that she s building this business she feels so good about herself and her dad every day would has a key comes in her house and would sit down at dinner and basically say that she was a neglectful mother.
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And she s like, I don t know what to do, Lisa.
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And I said, OK, well, he s got a key to your house.
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Either tell your dad that he has to set boundaries or he doesn t get the key to your house.
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She s like, I can t do that.
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I m like, yes, you can.
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You just don t want to.
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Your frame of reference may be that I m a terrible daughter if I take the keys away from my dad.
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But how is it serving you?
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And so that I think was the massive thing that I realized that I had a frame of reference about life, belief system, whatever you want to call it.
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And sometimes it doesn t serve my dreams, my goals, and where I want to go.
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And so having the self-awareness to ask myself, where do I want to go?
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How am I going to get there?
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And what belief system do I have that s either going to propel me forward or hold me back?
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What did you do in this?
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I think another thing that, and I know a lot of women especially struggle with this, what did you and Tom done before the point that you could actually have the courage and confidence to go and say to him, I love you, but I don t want to cook and clean anymore?
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Because to me, that kind of a transition in most marriages or long-term relationships, it could look like, I love you,
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I don t want to live here anymore.
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I love you.
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I don t like this thing that you do.
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I love you, but whatever, right?
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Fill in the blank.
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What had you and Tom done before that you felt confident enough to say that, that you knew it would land?
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Or did you actually take a risk and you didn t know at that point whether he d react positively or negatively, obviously now you ve been together and all the rest of it.
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But in that moment, did you know that he would react well to it or did you take a risk because it was so true to you?
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Yeah, everything s a risk.
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You never know.
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How many times have you spoken to someone you re like, I know exactly what they re
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is going to be.
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And then like, oh, you go to Radhi, right?
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And you re like, all right.
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And then she gives you a completely different response than you ever expected, but you still know him for so many years.
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So I didn t, there s never a guarantee, but really I went into it going, okay, how would I want him to talk to me about this?
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Because here s the thing, I need to be very self-aware that I m about to make his life more difficult.
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So just to paint the picture, he would wake up, his clothes were next to him, literally by his bed, Jay.
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He would put them on, he would go to the gym.
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He d come back, his work clothes were ready.
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He d get changed, I would hand him lunch to take to work.
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So he didn t have to do anything in the house.
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So I knew, I can t pretend that his life isn t going to be worse.
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It is.
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I m making his life more difficult.
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So A, give him the grace that of course he s going to
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have an opinion of course it s actually going to make his life more difficult so give him even though it s unfair exactly for you yes you still are being empathetic and giving grace of course and even with the unfair though i agreed to it it wasn t like he was like forcing me to do it so that s another thing i said yes i also chose that life
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So I had to take ownership over, I chose this as well, he didn t force me to, but now I want to make a change, so how do I do it?
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So giving him the grace that of course he s going to have a feeling, and then understanding the idea of grief.
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Grief is where you have to let go of something, someone, something that you didn t expect.
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And so he had an idea of the wife that I was, because I had painted that idea for eight years.
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So I know he s going to have to grieve the wife that I was.
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So giving him the space to grieve is super important.
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And then the last thing is almost like, I hate to say it, but like a drug addict, where you like wean them off.
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I was like, he s addicted in some way or habitual to the fact that I would do this every day.
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And just like any habit, you cannot change that overnight.
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And so what I said to him is, look, here s a game plan.
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Maybe this will help.
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What if next week I m just going to cook and clean for you six days a week and then the week after that I m going to do five days, four days, three days, right?
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And so what that did was show him I was willing to work with him on the transition.
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And then the final piece is letting him know I m not happy.
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Babe, I m profoundly unhappy.
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This isn t your fault.
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This is because I made decisions, but now I need your help, right?
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So I m asking him to be a part of this.
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I need your help because I m not happy and I don t think I can do it alone.
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Now, as my husband, he has the opportunity to be there for me.
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Instead of him being in his own head, selfish, like I can t believe, he s like, oh my God, my wife is actually asking for help.
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So that help piece was a big deal as well.
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And then overall, I think when you re approaching anything like this, how do you see your relationship?
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I think relationships are like a game of tennis.
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You re playing a sport, you re playing the same sport, but are you playing singles or doubles?
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If you re playing singles, you re both on each other s side of the net and you re just hitting the ball back and forward.
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And ultimately only one of you can win.
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And you see, Jay, I m sure you ve seen a lot of relationship where someone s just trying to make a little jab at them.
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And it s like, it literally this back and forth, it s not coming together.
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But a game of doubles, you re on the same side.
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You either win together or you lose together.
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And if I m weak, I tell you I m weak and that s where you get stronger and vice versa.
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So in this moment, I m saying to my husband, I don t know what I m doing.
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I don t know what the future looks like, but I m not happy.
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I am weak, metaphorically.
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I need your help.
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And so he turned around in having laid all that out, being honest with each other, that s also the foundation is your relationship built on honesty.
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Once you had that discussion, his response was, what kind of husband would I be if I put clean underwear ahead of your happiness?
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And that became the moment where he realized we were in it together.
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I wasn t happy and he could help me navigate out of it.
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And it came to that one day where he doesn t have clean underwear, Jay.
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I didn t do laundry for like a month.
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And he turns around and yells from in the other room, babe, I don t have any underwear.
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And in that moment, I paused and I was like, oh no, is this where the truth comes out?
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And he s like, I can t believe as my wife, you don t give me clean underwear.
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And he turned around, he s like, so I guess I m going to work commando.
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And he goes to work with no underwear on.
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Now, what that did was the way that I handled it, brought him in, we did it together, made that moment was like a make or break.
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He could have been mad.
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He could be like, see, I knew it.
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The resentment and contempt,
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is like the two things that will identify, I think, by 90% guarantee that a couple won t last is if you see resentment and contempt in a relationship.
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And so that is exactly what would have happened.
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He would have built contempt day by day that my wife isn t cooking for me, my wife isn t cleaning, and one silly moment, like I don t have underwear, could be that breaking point of that relationship.
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But because we d set up that foundation, that moment that could have broken us actually brought us closer together.
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Yeah I mean that but that is literally an emotional maturity masterclass like that it s it s incredible that you had that emotional maturity then and that Tom did too and obviously you know you you see it in your continued success of your relationship and marriage but
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I wish everyone would have a conversation like that because here s how it usually would go.
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You d have the realization that you re not happy.
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You d probably suck it up and live with it for a bit longer.
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Then you d go up to me and be like, I can t believe you ve controlled me for the last eight to 10 years.
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I can t believe that you ve dominated me.
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I can t believe that you ve made me this submissive person.
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and I m not happy, and I m never going to cook for you again, I m never going to clean for you again, do it yourself, grow up.
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And you could have said it like that.
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And then he d turn around and go, get over it, that s what you signed up for.
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And I think a lot of people end up having that version of it.
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And it s really interesting, I say this to a lot of people, it s almost like when you share something, are you sharing in a way that is looking at the three
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360 of what you just said, like, well, what did I sign up for?
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What did they sign up for?
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How does this change affect them?
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The change will never be seamless and smooth that now that I ve said it from tomorrow, everything s going to be perfect.
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And it s incredible to me to hear the emotional maturity surrounding that.
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And I hope that everyone who s listening and watching, my compassion goes out to people who I do feel are with someone who may not
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have the emotional maturity to receive it, even if it s shared with the maturity that you just shared it.
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I think I do know a lot of people who have tried to share something similar with their partners and the partners will be like, Oh, just get over it.
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Oh, you ll be fine tomorrow.
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Don t worry about it.
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Like, you know, how would you have dealt with if that was the case?
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How would you, how would you guide people with radical confidence?
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How would you deal with that?
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Yeah, because that s such a great question, because there s no guarantee that your partner is going to respond the same way Tom did.
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Even if you dropped it perfectly?
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Yes, yes.
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Right, like that s the point.
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I think we live in a world where we think if I say everything perfectly, then someone, and we know that s not true.
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So let s say you dropped it perfectly and Tom had
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It s all right, babe, that s what women are meant to do.
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That s what a wife s meant to do.
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That s what, or that s what you signed up for.
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We both signed the contract.
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That s what it was.
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What would you, what would you have done?
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And that s really important because that s the thing is like, was it a non-negotiable for him?
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Because even to where I said, I originally wanted four children and I don t want any, that idea of that non-negotiable, if he was the type of person where one of his non-negotiables were having children and having a stay at home wife, I actually understand that we re not meant to be together then.
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Because I don t want to force my opinion on you.
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You need to live the life that you actually want.
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And if that life means that you really want children, you need to go and find that because we re going to make each other unhappy, no matter how much I love you.
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And so if Tom had turned around to me and said, yeah, no, that s what you signed up for, I think in that moment, I would have been shocked.
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I wouldn t have expected it.
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And I would have had to go back and be with myself and be in silence.
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and start to write out what my value systems are, what my morals are, and how I want to show up every day.
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And then check to see if then what Tom is saying aligns with that.
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Because I had been going along with the flow for so long, and thinking other people s opinions were mine.
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And so we don t really know what is our own thoughts until we are still, until we write out what we actually care about.
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And so our value systems happen to very much align.
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Our value system is, is I will support you even in spite of things that may make my life more uncomfortable, right?
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My value system is, is that you have, you are an ambitious man.
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I will protect you and support you in your ambition, even if it makes my life more difficult.
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So if he s working, which is true, two years ago, he was working 120 hours a week.
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Yeah.
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Like for like 18 months.
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That was very hard.
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And so for 18 months, I was supporting him until he started to become detrimental to us.
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And that s where it s like support each other, know your value systems, but never let your own values diminish, your own wants and needs diminish.
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And that s what I did for eight years.
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And that s kind of what I talk about in the book about how a relationship can be literally the wind beneath your wings that can help propel you, right?
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It can make you feel better about yourself as you re on that journey.
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But it also can be that anchor around your ankle that can, if you dropped into the ocean, would just take you deeper and deeper.
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And so who are you with?
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Do they want to see you shine?
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Do they want to actually see you thrive?
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And what are their non-negotiables?
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But I think ultimately, if Tom had said that, I don t think we would have stayed together.
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And that s the key, because when people say, you and Tom are so lucky, you re so lucky to have someone like Tom.
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And I said, no, no, no, no.
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I ve got Tom because we communicate, and he s the person that is okay with a wife going from a stay-at-home wife to now an entrepreneur.
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And I m okay with having a husband that works 100 hours or 120 hours a week.
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Most people aren t, and there s no judgment there, but that s what makes us beautiful dance partners.
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And so never, I just did it too long, Jay, never, anyone listening, don t ever diminish your dreams.
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don t ever negotiate your boundaries for somebody else.
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Know what they are first and then ideally find somebody that respects and compliments them.
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Yeah it s such great advice and it s you know and I know you mean it and and it s funny because I I think I resonate strongly with that as well is that when I think about me and Radhi
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It s very, obviously we no longer have been together as long as you and Tom have, but I see a lot of similarities in how we re growing in that way.
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And your relationship is a beautiful example of that, like you and Tom and how long you ve been together and all the transitions.
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And I love seeing it.
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It s really inspiring for us.
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And I think it s similar for us.
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Like I always, I genuinely believe it that
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The reason why me and Rodney work is because we communicate and is because we re both able to respect and adapt and know what the other person needs.
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I think what s really interesting though Lisa is that.
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a lot of the time what we want, we ve got to really think about that word because I wonder whether sometimes we ve always, it s so funny because I m going the other way, but we started off talking about like we all believe we deserve less.
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But sometimes in our relationships we can be really demanding in a way that isn t taking into account who the other person is.
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So I ll give you an example.
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Let s say what you wanted, and I know Tom, so I m going to speak for him a bit and you can edit the parts I don t get right.
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If you had said, Jay, I m excited to get married and the guy I want, I want him to be someone who every evening spends time with me, every weekend is free and available.
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I want him to think about planning a vacation four times a year or twice a year or once a year.
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I want him to be someone who just wants to cuddle up and watch a movie every night.
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even if you wanted all of that, Tom was not the right guy.
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Like that s not Tom.
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Like he s, I mean, he may be some of those things, but not really, not really.
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Yeah, exactly.
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From my perception, Tom s not that guy.
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You guys know each other.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Like Tom s not that guy.
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And, and, and I m not saying that makes him a good or bad guy.
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I m just saying that s not Tom.
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And it was similar with me and Radhi, like
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You know, like, I think I said something ridiculous to Radhi when we first started dating.
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And I was like, look, if you want the guy who s always free every weekend to hang out with family and goes to a movie on Friday night and then goes, like, I don t know, like, house shop, furniture shopping on the weekend.
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I was like, I m not that guy.
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Like, I m just, that s not me.
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Like, I have a mission.
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I m excited about stuff.
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Like, I m passionate.
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I want to live a purposeful life.
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Like, this is my priority.
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And so sometimes what we want and who we re attracted to
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Don t mesh.
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You can be attracted to Tom for his intelligence, his brain, his looks, whatever else it is, and he can be attracted to you, but then you re like, but wait a minute, I actually want someone who s ambitious or not ambitious.
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I want someone who s this or this.
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Sometimes I think we re trying to force someone to be something that they re not.
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I see that a lot.
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I ll have a lot of friends who will say to me, I wish he was just a bit more ambitious.
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I m like but he s not and he s not suddenly going to become that like he s he s he may become that because we can all change but obviously he s not showing you that s who he is or someone will be like you know I wish he didn t work so hard like you know and it s something like but you know his goal is to be a billionaire like as in do you know what I mean and he s dedicated to that so I m like where does that want and attraction kind of go together?
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Yeah I think
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It s such a great question.
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Yeah, because here s the thing though, Jay, is that of course we want everything.
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Of course we do.
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Everyone does.
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So just accept that, okay, you re not going to necessarily be able to have everything.
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So what s the cost?
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So I find ambition extremely sexy and attractive.
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And so I m attracted to someone that has ambition.
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And so what comes with that?
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What is the cost of being attracted to someone that has ambition?
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It means they re not going to be there.
3
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every night at 7pm, they re not taking time off on the weekends, they re not filling the blank.
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Okay, well what s more important to you?
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Like now just look at those facts and go, if you re ambitious, this is actually what comes with someone ambitious.
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If you want someone that is a stay at home, again,
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I freaking love it, but just know that probably means they re going to work a nine to five, that way they have the time to be open to then spending date night with you.
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But are you okay with that?
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What life do you want?
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What s more important?
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Like actually almost prioritize them.
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And so for me, that was a very early wake up call with Tom where it s like, I know who I married.
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And so just because I ve got a ring on my finger doesn t mean now all of a sudden he has to change in order to fit all the things that I m looking for in life.
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I actually know that the cost of being with him is that I don t see him on a Saturday night or a Friday.
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And then that extends to children.
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When we were even talking about kids, he said, babe, I love you.
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I m not going to wake up in the middle of the night and clean the baby s diaper because I am ambitious and I will be resentful.
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Going back to that word, I ll be resentful if I give up my ambition for my children and my wife.
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I won t be able to be the man that you love and you want me to be because you are literally stripping me away of the fundamental person I am.
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I respect someone for being that honest and that transparent.
4
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I only receive it with utter gratitude, to be honest.
4
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Like, thank you for telling me before we have children, what type of father you re going to be.
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And so he said, I m going to be working really hard.
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I m not going to be coming home at 7pm every night.
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And I m not going to get up with the kids because I need to make sure that my cognitive load is like on fire when I m in my business.
4
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But then on the weekends, the truth is that I want to be an amazing father.
4
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And so I m going to be on the weekends taking my kid to soccer practice and doing all these things.
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Those are the reality of who fundamentally he is and how that shows up in our relationship.
4
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Cool.
4
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Now that I know that, do I still want children?
4
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knowing that pretty much Monday to Friday, I m a single mother.
4
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Because when people don t have these conversations, it ends up being the biggest thing that breaks that relationship.
4
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Because you are now judging the part, I can t believe he s not waking up and I m left all by myself.
4
SPEAKER_00
Or did you have the discussion so that you knew, again, there s zero judgment, but you knew what the mother wants and what the father wants.
4
SPEAKER_00
And this goes both ways, right?
4
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It s not just, Tom, what do I want out of life?
4
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And how do children fit into my lifestyle?
4
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But those are the things that we spoke about every step of the way so that we can always give each other the utter respect in being the person they are because when you strip away that you can t bring your whole self.
4
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You know you ve written in your book about how you have to have a relationship with your purpose, your partner has to have a relationship with their purpose and then you come together.
4
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But if you re stripping each other of their purpose you can t have that
4
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beautiful dance and that relationship.
4
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So knowing all of those factors is exactly why I was like, I still love you.
4
SPEAKER_00
I appreciate it.
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SPEAKER_00
I still find this very sexy.
4
SPEAKER_00
And now the understanding is, is that he s not going to be home in the evening.
4
SPEAKER_00
And that was actually part of what made me decide that I didn t want children because I don t want to be a single mother Monday to Friday.
4
SPEAKER_00
I freaking love my work.
4
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So I actually don t want to give that up either.
4
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I didn t want to have children and have nannies bring them up.
4
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No shame, just my decision.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then on the weekends, I m just going to be utterly transparent and honest with you, is that I don t want to be second or third on his priority list.
4
SPEAKER_00
When is there going to be time for me and him?
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If he s working a week and on the weekends he s with the children.
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And the thing that I will protect the most is my relationship with my husband.
4
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So knowing that, now what decisions do we make to protect our relationship?
4
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And I understand people, especially with kids, would be like, you won t know what it s like until you have kids.
4
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I bet you get that all the time, especially in your culture.
4
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The truth is, no, I don t know what it s like because I don t have them.
4
SPEAKER_00
But there s nothing that I m missing or losing because I don t know what I m missing out on.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s kind of like a dog making fun of us humans for our sense of smell.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s like their sense of smell is freaking amazing, but I don t know what it s like, so I don t look at a dog in longingness.
4
SPEAKER_00
I just go, I know my sense of smell and it is what it is.
4
SPEAKER_00
So, but I do treat it as fact that I bet you nature takes its course and make sure that biologically, especially as a woman, that you then prioritize your children.
4
SPEAKER_00
So then again, asking Tom, are you okay with going down on my priority list when we have kids?
4
SPEAKER_00
because nature will make sure that that child is the center of my universe.
4
SPEAKER_00
I don t pretend otherwise.
4
SPEAKER_00
And being able to have that type of honest conversations with zero judgment, giving each other the grace to just be who they are, then allows us to say
4
SPEAKER_00
Do we have children?
4
SPEAKER_00
Do we still stay in this marriage?
4
SPEAKER_00
Without that growing contempt that then ends up breaking all couples, it turns you into a person you re not proud of.
4
SPEAKER_00
You start arguing, you start saying things you don t like, you start doing things you re not proud of yourself, you use potentially their vulnerabilities against them in arguments because you haven t had that true conversation from the get-go.
4
SPEAKER_03
The Therapy for Black Girls podcast is an NAACP and Webby Award winning podcast dedicated to all things mental health, personal development, and all of the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
4
SPEAKER_03
Here, we have the conversations that help black women decipher how their past inform who they are today.
4
SPEAKER_03
and use that information to decide who they want to be moving forward.
4
SPEAKER_03
We chat about things like how to establish routines that center self-care, what burnout looks and feels like, and defining what aspects of our lives are making us happy and what parts are holding us back.
4
SPEAKER_03
I m your host, Dr. Joy Harden-Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia.
4
SPEAKER_03
And I can t wait for you to join the conversation every Wednesday.
4
SPEAKER_03
Listen to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
4
SPEAKER_03
Take good care, and we ll see you there.
4
SPEAKER_02
Get emotional with me, Radhi Devlukia, in my new podcast, A Really Good Cry.
4
SPEAKER_02
We re going to talk about and go through all the things that are sometimes difficult to process alone.
4
SPEAKER_02
We re going to go over how to regulate your emotions, diving deep into holistic personal development, and just building your mindset to have a happier, healthier life.
4
SPEAKER_02
We re going to be talking with some of my best friends.
4
SPEAKER_00
I didn t know we were going to go there.
4
SPEAKER_02
people that I admire.
4
SPEAKER_02
When we say listen to your body, really tune into what s going on.
4
SPEAKER_02
Authors of books that have changed my life.
4
SPEAKER_02
Now you re talking about sympathy, which is different than empathy.
4
SPEAKER_02
And basically have conversations that can help us get through this crazy thing we call life.
4
SPEAKER_02
I already believe in myself.
4
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I already see myself.
4
SPEAKER_02
And so when people give me an opportunity, I m just like,
4
SPEAKER_02
Oh great, you see me too!
4
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We ll laugh together, we ll cry together, and find a way through all of our emotions.
4
SPEAKER_02
Never forget, it s okay to cry, as long as you make it a really good one.
4
SPEAKER_02
Listen to A Really Good Cry with Radhi Divlukia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
4
SPEAKER_04
Tune in to the new podcast, Stories from the Village of Nothing Much.
4
SPEAKER_04
Like easy listening, but for fiction.
4
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If you ve overdosed on bad news, we invite you into a world where the glimmers of goodness in everyday life are all around you.
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SPEAKER_04
I m Katherine Nicolai, and you might know me from the Bedtime Story podcast, Nothing Much Happens.
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SPEAKER_04
I m an architect of cozy, and I invite you to come spend some time where everyone is welcome and kindness is the default.
4
SPEAKER_04
When you tune in, you ll hear stories about bakeries and walks in the woods, a favorite booth at the diner on a blustery autumn day, cats and dogs, unrescued goats and donkeys, old houses, bookshops, beaches where kites fly, and pretty stones are found.
4
SPEAKER_04
I have so many stories to tell you and they are all designed to help you feel good and feel connected to what is good in the world.
4
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Listen, relax, enjoy.
4
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Listen to stories from the Village of Nothing Much on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I mean, there s so much to unpack there and I love the first point you made, this idea of if you re attracted to something that s a non-negotiable or a priority, first of all,
4
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just draw a line as to what the cost of that is.
4
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So if you want someone ambitious, naturally they ll have less time.
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If you want someone who has time, naturally they ll be less ambitious.
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That s just how life works and neither of those are good or bad.
4
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But if you go, I want someone who s really ambitious and has loads of time,
4
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that s just not happening and so you need to know your deal breakers and you need to know your priorities and I love the way you put that because I do think that we do want it all and we want it all now and when someone doesn t give it to us all
4
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we then think it s their fault.
4
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And that s what creates this resentment and contempt because we re like, well, wait a minute, like, don t you want to work a bit more?
4
SPEAKER_01
And he s like, no, but the thing you love about them is that they re always available.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like I have friends who s like, their partners would come on them with their work trip and then they ll be like, oh, but don t you have something to do?
4
SPEAKER_01
And it s like, but, but you love the fact that they re always with you.
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SPEAKER_01
And then there s this break, you know, this, this break, does that make sense?
4
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Or, or even this idea of like, I ll have some of my friends say to me like, oh, you know, my partner s just a bit boring.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m like, but you wanted someone who didn t do anything.
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You wanted someone who didn t have interest, was always around, was always available, and now you re calling them boring for it.
4
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But you ve never encouraged them to or you ve never been attracted to someone who wanted to explore.
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It s fascinating to me.
4
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Can we take it even a step deeper?
4
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So think about women in the workforce now.
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So a lot of women are, which I freaking love, right?
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I want to empower women.
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I think it s incredible that now we have the options to really be able to go into the workforce instead of be stay-at-home wives or mothers.
4
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But what I m noticing is happening is a lot of some women, I wouldn t say a lot, are really building that confidence and I freaking like it.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I interviewed somebody, I won t say their name, but she s a really big powerhouse and she s successful and she s wealthy and she had just got divorced.
4
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And so she s telling me the story about how she s like, yeah, I m owning my sexuality.
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I m owning who I am and I m a powerful woman.
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So she chats up this guy in a bar.
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and she s like and he became my boyfriend he s younger than her so he moves in with her and she s like i freaking love it no guy s ever gonna control me again i m like amazing i respect that you know what
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you want you go after it.
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Halfway through the interview she s just like yeah and I can t believe he doesn t like book any vacations, he never pays for dinner, he never takes the lead on something and I m like because you didn t set up your relationship for that to be like that and I think ultimately this is something I m really playing with new and that s really weighing on me is that I think one of the things people don t ask each other and they re worried especially in today s society but I think it s imperative when you get into a relationship before you commit
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who leads and who follows.
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and having that actual conversation.
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And here s the thing, following someone doesn t make you weaker.
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It doesn t make you submissive.
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It just has a way, think about dancing.
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I ve brought up dancing for some reason a lot in this conversation.
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I m not quite sure why.
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It s the dip.
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Yeah, it s the dip, exactly.
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Think about in dancing, you can t have two leaders.
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You just can t.
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Think about running a company.
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You can t have two CEOs.
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You have to have that moment.
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That s such a great point.
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You have to have that moment of who is leading and who is following.
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But if you can remove the stigma that maybe you have against the word follow, then you can actually have that honest conversation.
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And that s what Tom and I did is, babe, I want you to lead.
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He wants to lead and I want him to lead.
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That doesn t make me less of a powerful, confident woman.
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It actually makes me stronger in my eyes because I m strong enough to know I can still be strong in my own conviction, my ideas, my boundaries, my standing up for myself and I can still have faith in somebody else is going to lead me.
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Now, of course, if he goes off step, I m going to have the confidence to speak up.
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But ultimately, I m not challenging him for that role.
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And in today s society, again, it s just weird for people to say about roles in a relationship.
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And I think there s no right or wrong.
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What do you want in your relationship?
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But you have to have that role discussion.
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No matter what gender a person is going to take the lead, you have to have that discussion first.
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Yeah, and one thing that Radhi and I found is also that we lead and follow in different areas.
5
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So when it comes to our health, Radhi leads.
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She decides what snacks we have in the house, she decides what we eat for breakfast, lunch and dinner, she decides where we go out to eat for restaurants if we re going out, she decides what we eat when we re traveling because I trust her that she knows more about the body than I do as a nutritionist and dietitian and all of our expertise.
5
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And so I m going to follow her.
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When it comes to working out, I follow her.
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She, she s the one who s like setting the paces to like, all right, you know, when I met her, I didn t even work out, just played a bit of sport or whatever.
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And she was the one saying, no, no, no, it s really great for us to be active and do this together.
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So she leads.
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When it comes to.
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our home, I lead interior design because that s my thing.
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I love it.
5
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I love art.
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I love aesthetic.
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I love the feel.
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I love everything.
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And I get so into it.
5
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And so she let me lead.
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She was like, Jay, you re in charge.
5
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That s your thing.
5
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When it comes to spending time with family and vacations, she leads.
5
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She loves taking care of her family and loves traveling together and giving them experiences and so surely then when it comes to.
5
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The direction of like should we move now should we do this where should we invest i m leading that conversation and i think it s beautiful because there s leading and following across all these different areas.
5
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And all of a sudden, it s like you re both playing to your strengths, you both feel valuable, you both feel significant, and you both feel like you get to rely on the other person, which is beautiful, which is what you want.
5
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And I think it s... Yeah, go on.
5
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Well, it goes back to the doubles in tennis.
5
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You re playing doubles.
5
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Exactly, exactly.
5
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Like, you take that shot, I ll take this one.
5
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And that s a beautiful analogy.
5
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And I think that that s the reality of...
5
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what s helped us as well is being humble enough to say, you lead, you re better at this.
5
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And then being confident enough to say, no, I ll take this one because that s my strength.
5
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And I think that requires so much humility and putting your ego aside.
5
SPEAKER_01
And it also requires so much self-awareness.
5
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And by the way, this isn t perfect.
5
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We re constantly playing with it.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like there ll constantly be someone like, I want you to do this because I don t want to do it.
5
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She ll be like, I don t want to do it either.
5
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There s that stuff too.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then there s stuff where you re both arguing over who s going to lead because you both want to lead it.
5
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I think what we re both coming back down to is the importance of that conversation because I know so many of my friends actually have been scared to tell their partners going back to the kids thing and this could be about anything kids is an example.
5
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where they re not ready for kids, but their partner is so pushing for kids.
5
SPEAKER_01
And it s like, no one s listening to each other now.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s just our desire is superseding the code that your partner is trying to suggest to you of, I m not ready, I m not sure, but your desire is just like, no, no, no, it has to happen now.
5
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It has to happen now.
5
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And I find that to be like, I think I d really, me and Radhi kind of went through that, like,
5
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before we moved to the place that we re at now, I really needed to move because we lived in a place that we were renting that I never slept well in.
5
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We had people taking stuff, like our mail would always get stolen.
5
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We d have, there were a lot of animals that were in the floorboards.
5
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It was an old home.
5
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So you d hear like
5
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animals rustling around, like it was just one of those homes where I always felt uncomfortable and anxious.
5
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And so I don t think I slept well for one and a half years where I would be living in fight or flight every night thinking, what if someone s in my house?
5
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And that is not a comfortable feeling.
5
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And so I kept pushing.
5
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I was like, I think I need to get out of here.
5
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I need to get out.
5
SPEAKER_01
And she loved that home.
5
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So she couldn t get it.
5
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She was just like, this place is beautiful.
5
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And I m like, yeah, it s beautiful during the day, but at night, trust me, I m like really anxious here.
5
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And I m not really an anxious sleeper.
5
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I sleep well.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so it was very new for me.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I could tell she wasn t quite getting it.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so I had to start looking for new places.
5
SPEAKER_01
Because I realized that until she sees something better, she s not going to get the point.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so it was literally like, and that s natural, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
Because her, she was like, I m happy here.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m satisfied here.
5
SPEAKER_01
I was like, no, but I can t.
5
SPEAKER_01
And she wasn t getting the subtle nudges.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so I started looking, started dragging her to house viewings.
5
SPEAKER_01
We found this place, even then she was like, no, no, no, the other place is more beautiful, blah, blah, blah, blah.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then finally I was like, you must be kidding me.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then we moved and now she s grateful that we moved.
5
SPEAKER_01
But it was really interesting how like, even though there was a bit of conflict and friction,
5
SPEAKER_01
I still knew I had to lead but I knew I didn t have to lead by like trying to convince her or make her feel bad for not understanding me or because I could sense it wasn t that she didn t understand me or she wasn t listening to me or maybe there was a bit of that we just weren t getting it if that makes sense.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, what s interesting is I go back to the value systems, because the value for you was I need to, the value of sleeping, because of how I know how important your brain is to you and your mind and how you think and how you show up and run your business and everything like that.
5
SPEAKER_00
It actually aligns with your value system.
5
SPEAKER_00
Now, maybe Raddy s value system was homemaking.
5
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I want to be somewhere I m comfortable.
5
SPEAKER_00
So actually both of your value systems, again, there s no right or wrong, but that s where your value system was then colliding because she feels like I ve made a house out of this value system.
5
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I m not getting what I need.
5
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I can t work.
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I don t have the mindset value system.
5
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So actually what was happening is your value systems were colliding, but you re not talking about the value, you re talking about the house.
5
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Yes, yes, yes.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so that becomes that even with the kids thing, it s like, okay, well, the person that wants to delay the children, what s your value system there?
5
SPEAKER_00
I haven t gotten to where I want to in my career.
5
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And my career right now is super important.
5
SPEAKER_00
And maybe the person is my value system.
5
SPEAKER_00
I ve always wanted a family.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so I value family over business.
5
SPEAKER_00
So now you can see one person s valuing business over family, the other person s valuing family over business, and you re colliding, but you re not actually talking about the thing.
5
SPEAKER_00
You re just talking about the kids, but it s actually about the value system that s colliding.
5
SPEAKER_00
The silly example that I learned this lesson with Tom was over making the bed.
5
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I was like, what do you mean you don t make the bed?
5
SPEAKER_00
Of course you make the bed.
5
SPEAKER_00
It was like the thing I was taught my whole life.
5
SPEAKER_00
And Tom was like, no, I won t make the bed.
5
SPEAKER_00
And we would collide.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m like, you don t get it.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so he would get frustrated every time I would make the bed.
5
SPEAKER_00
Cause he s like, I have to unmake the bed now.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m like,
5
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It takes three seconds.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was dismissing and mocking him, if I m going to be very honest, thinking he was wrong, that of course you make that.
5
SPEAKER_00
What kind of person doesn t?
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was literally putting my value system on him until we started to dig, what does making the bed mean to you?
5
SPEAKER_00
And to me, it was about neatness.
5
SPEAKER_00
It was about calm.
5
SPEAKER_00
I have ADHD, so I need those moments of
5
SPEAKER_00
calmness around me, I need things to be neat in order for me to be centered.
5
SPEAKER_00
But I didn t say that.
5
SPEAKER_00
I just said I need the bed to be made.
5
SPEAKER_00
For him, his value system is time.
5
SPEAKER_00
He s like, it s the one thing I ll never get back.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so if you ask me to do something that doesn t actually align with the vision of what I want my future to be,
5
SPEAKER_00
don t like you re asking me to be someone I m not.
5
SPEAKER_00
So his value system is time.
5
SPEAKER_00
My value system is tidiness.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so you can see in just that silly thing of making the bed, we freaking collide.
5
SPEAKER_00
And how many people, couples do that every single day over small little things.
5
SPEAKER_00
And what ends up happening is that oxytocin that you had when you first started dating is no longer there.
5
SPEAKER_00
And all you have are these collisions day in day out.
5
SPEAKER_01
I love that.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I feel I really hope everyone who s listening and watching
6
SPEAKER_01
like takes a moment to to break this down for themselves like we had it the other way around a few couple of months ago my wife s book came out her first yeah and thank you I know you interviewed her for it as well and it was you know and it was just it was a really exciting moment Radhi had poured three years of her life into this cookbook I saw her work hard on it I ve never seen her work that hard in my life never seen her just
6
SPEAKER_01
be so consistent.
6
SPEAKER_01
You know how much work it takes.
6
SPEAKER_01
You know, look, we re sitting here talking about radical confidence one year on, right.
6
SPEAKER_01
And one year on, two.
6
SPEAKER_01
Oh my gosh, it s been two years.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
Two years on of radical confidence.
6
SPEAKER_01
And you know how much work goes into this book.
6
SPEAKER_01
I know how much you poured into this book.
6
SPEAKER_01
This was your first ever book.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I said to Radhi, I said to her, I said, you know what, Radhi, like, we ve been together now for 11 years, we ve celebrated a lot of things, but you ve never had a book out.
6
SPEAKER_01
So I don t know how you wanna celebrate this, because not every celebration s the same.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like, you don t celebrate a birthday, how you celebrate an anniversary and how you celebrate Christmas.
6
SPEAKER_01
They re different celebrations.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so I was asking and checking in with her, and I was like, I actually don t know what you d like to do in order to like, make this moment feel special.
6
SPEAKER_01
And we were on a hike and she just said to me, she goes, oh, we just celebrated last night.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, what do you mean?
6
SPEAKER_01
I couldn t even remember what we did last night.
6
SPEAKER_01
I was like, what do you mean we celebrated last night?
6
SPEAKER_01
And she was like, yeah, like our friends came over, I cooked from the book and they loved the meals.
6
SPEAKER_01
This was the day before the book came out.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, wait, that was a celebration to you.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like it wasn t, there was no, it wasn t like the joyful book event.
6
SPEAKER_01
There was no fancy like cards with food.
6
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It was just a few mates came over and she cooked from the book, which I don t even know if she told anyone and they loved it and they loved the food.
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And she was like, that felt like a celebration to me because I made food I love for people I love.
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And I was like, wow, you just saved me this grand idea I had in my head of like throwing a big party or like, you know, putting the joyful banner up or whatever, which is what I would do.
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And I was just thinking about that.
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And I was like, it s so interesting to me that her value of celebration is that, and my value around celebration is totally different.
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But again, so many couples and relationships can go wrong because we re constantly either celebrating the person we love or we re criticizing the person we love based on our value system.
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And now all we re talking about is the criticism or the celebration and not talking about the value.
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And it s fascinating to me that it works both ways, whether it s a good thing or a bad thing.
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Because sometimes you do something nice for your partner and they don t appreciate it.
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And you re like, why don t you appreciate it?
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They re like, because that s not what I appreciate.
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It s not what I value.
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And I applaud you for just asking her, because so many people either wouldn t ask, wouldn t do anything, or just assume.
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And that s, I think, where a lot of couples almost get mixed up, where it s like, well, if they love me, they should know.
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And it s like, oh, that breaks my heart.
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They re not a mind reader.
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Like you said, we all change, we all evolve.
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You would have done something with the biggest heart, right?
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Like, I want to celebrate my wife.
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And she was looking like, what do you mean?
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I don t remember.
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And then what happens in that moment?
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You feel unappreciated for having tried to show up and do something amazing.
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She doesn t feel seen or heard.
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So now this whole thing, this act that you ve done to try and really show her doesn t achieve anything.
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You and her both feel badly.
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And then again, you almost look at the other person like you re wrong, or you re crazy, or how could you have done this?
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And so the idea of just asking, remove all the idea of what we ve been taught of like, if they love me, they should know, and just say, ultimately, I want them to feel what?
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I want them to feel loved.
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I want them to feel seen.
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Okay.
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How do they do that?
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I sometimes don t know.
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Let me just ask.
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So one of the things actually, so I stopped being the stay at home wife.
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I stopped cooking for Tom.
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We laid out all of our things of how we want to show up for each other and we changed and grow or we both change and grow since then.
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So only last year Tom turned around to me and he said, you know what babe?
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Like I feel like I have a need that s unmet right now.
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I was like, Oh my God, what s the need babe?
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And he s like, I actually now miss that you don t cook for me.
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So we ve been like 15 years, he s been fine with it.
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But instead of me judging him, he told me, I m not supposed to guess, he just said that.
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And I said, okay, babe, what does that look like?
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And he s like, I like you to preempt my needs when it comes to food.
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And I said, okay, instead of just leaving it at that, I was like, okay, can I order Postmates?
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then have it delivered?
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Would that satisfy the need? 
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And he s like, yeah, you can, or do I have to cook it?
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He s like, no, no, you can have postmates.
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Okay.
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Do I need to plate it for you?
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Or can I leave it out on the doorstep and just text you it s here?
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And he s like, well, if you can put it on like my kitchen counter, like his little side.
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And he s like, that way I know.
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I was like, cool.
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Cool, now I ve heard you.
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I don t have to assume.
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I now don t have to go straight into, oh my God, he s now asking me to cook.
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I don t want to cook.
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I went there.
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I was that person.
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I don t want to get trapped.
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No, none of that.
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We just broke it down bit by bit of understanding what exactly that need looks like.
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Now here s the other part.
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Maybe I m not willing to do it.
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And in that moment, I just would have said right now, that actually doesn t fit my lifestyle of what I need to show up.
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So how do we find a compromise?
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Is there a compromise or is it, sorry, I m unable to do it, but what if I do it for three weeks on a holiday, right?
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Now come up with ways that you re not just shutting the other person down, you re hearing their needs and they feel heard that you re trying to find a solution.
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Because ultimately I think not to just stereotype, but typically, I think women want to feel seen,
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They want to feel safe, they want to feel needed and they want to feel appreciated.
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It s not the money.
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It s not the height that a lot of people are saying.
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They need to be six foot and seven figures.
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No, no.
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If you really do stop and pause and ask your partner how they can fill those roles, then you can start to actually create a beautiful relationship on the long term.
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And then the same for a guy.
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Obviously, I don t know, and I d love to hear your thoughts, but I ve tried to process what is it that I think a guy needs.
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They want to feel appreciated.
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They want to feel powerful, not controlling, powerful.
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and they want to be respected.
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Yeah, I d agree with that.
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And so knowing, okay, if that s actually what you want, I m just going to say it.
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People might hate it, but I just go to truth.
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How do I make you feel powerful?
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That s what I would ask Tom.
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How do I make you feel powerful?
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What are the things that you need?
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Now, again, I then go back to my value systems.
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I say, does this align with me?
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But I m not going to guess.
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I want to make sure that my husband s happy and that we re always constantly in alignment.
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And when you ve been together for 23 years, I met him when I was 21.
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We ve built multiple companies together.
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So how the hell have we been able to stay so aligned?
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It s these little things that people may be embarrassed to do, maybe ashamed to do, or they don t want to do it.
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That s the reality.
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That s the reality.
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We want something
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But we either feel guilty, shameful, embarrassed, or uncomfortable to ask for it.
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And then we take that feeling out on our partner for not knowing it.
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And we get triggered when they say something like, I wish you d cook for me again.
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That triggers all of our PTSD from that time.
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And now it s like, how can you even ask me to do that?
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You know how hard that was for me.
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Not realizing it s just a suggestion.
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It s just an idea.
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It s coming from a group.
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It s that space that I think we ve been talking about today is, can you kind of create a safe space to have these uncomfortable conversations without any shame or guilt?
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Right.
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And that becomes the foundation that ultimately selection matters.
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Who you choose to be with will absolutely dictate the outcome of your relationship.
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And so I used to say the key to a relationship is communication.
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I don t actually think it is.
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I think it s a growth mindset.
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Because if you do not have a growth mindset, no matter
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how much I communicate, you said that earlier, right?
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They may not be able to respond.
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Now think of all the hurdles and humps that we ve been through in our relationship.
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How have we survived those?
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Because we are open to having the hard conversations.
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We re open to communicating endlessly until we get to the solution.
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One of the rules, so Tom and I have had a bunch of rules.
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One of the rules is never apologize if you don t mean it.
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And even in the moment of I m deeply upset,
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He absolutely can say, baby, I know if I just apologize to you right now, I know that you re going to feel better, but I can t apologize because I m not sorry for it.
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And what that does is that absolutely elongates the conversation, the argument.
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It may go now for two days, three days, but ultimately we re not brushing it under the rug.
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We actually resolve it and go, okay, I m still very hurt by it, but let me actually work through that hurt.
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Why am I hurt?
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Why was I triggered?
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Why did you say that?
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You know, and then we just peel away the onion, peel away the onion to get to that core.
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But it all comes from that growth mindset.
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And if you don t have it, no matter how much you discuss it, you re going to hit a wall where you cannot be seen or heard.
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Absolutely.
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Lisa, you are amazing.
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The book everyone is called Radical Confidence, 11 lessons on how to get the relationship career and life you want.
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Today, we did a deep dive on relationships, which
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But when you open up this book, you ll learn how to handle your negative voice, how you can overcome failure, how you can actually work through your emotions and understanding them.
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Setting your value system is a big part of this book.
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Breaking through your beliefs, building that growth mindset is all inside this book called Radical Confidence.
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If you didn t grab a copy two years ago, make sure you grab a copy right now.
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If you don t already subscribe to and watch Women of Impact, make sure you go and do that as well.
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Lisa, it s always such a joy talking to you because it s so lived.
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Everything you share is such lived experience and I know you live by it because I know you and Tom.
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And on top of that, it s just so real and I love having these really pragmatic,
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practical conversations around topics that can be very ethereal and uncomfortable and woo woo and kind of a bit like oh you know and and to be honest manipulative and controlling like oh if you want him to do this do this if you want her to and it s almost like you actually can t get anyone to do anything all you all you can do is all you can do is accept them for who they are or not and I think when we re having these conversations I m really hoping that everyone walks away with
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an understanding of what type of quality of interaction and conversation to have with the individual.
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And the growth mindset point is in a relationship is huge because adaptability and flexibility is at the core of anything long term.
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And I ve seen that with me and Ravi too.
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There is just there, I realize it all the time.
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It s,
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Things would only never work if we lost our flexibility and adaptability.
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And that s all growth mindset.
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You have to.
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And it s so interesting how so often we don t want to be flexible and adaptable.
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And by the way, that s okay too.
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So Lisa, thank you so much for showing up as always and just shedding so much clarity on a really difficult topic.
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Thank you, Jay.
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Thank you for having me.
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You re such a good dude.
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I freaking love you.
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I love Raddy.
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We connected from day one and the support and human that you are, I just want to say thank you for always being there as a friend.
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Thank you.
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Always, always here for you.
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And anyone who s been listening and watching, make sure you tag me and Lisa on Instagram, on TikTok, on X, whatever platform you re on in the YouTube comments.
7
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Let us know what resonated with you, what stuck with you, what you re trying out with your partner or potential partner.
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Please pass this on to a friend, someone in a relationship who s struggling, who s going through a tough time.
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I really believe it will give them the tools and the resources that they need
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to navigate and guide them through.
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And of course, go and grab your copy of Radical Confidence.
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It s available in paperback right now.
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Thanks so much, everyone.
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Thanks, Lisa.
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If you love this episode, you ll enjoy my interview with Dr. Daniel Amen on how to change your life by changing your brain.
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If we want a healthy mind, it actually starts with a healthy brain.
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You know, I ve had the blessing or the curse to scan over a thousand convicted felons and over a hundred murderers, and their brains are buried down.
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For Mental Health Awareness Month, I m partnering up with the National Alliance of Mental Illness, NAMI.
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If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health, there is help.
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Call NAMI Helpline at 800-950-NAMI, or go to www.nami.org forward slash help, or text Helpline to 62640.
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For immediate 24-7 crisis support, call or text 988 or visit www.nami.org.
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988lifeline.org.
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Get emotional with me, Radhi Devlukhia, in my new podcast, A Really Good Cry.
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We re going to be talking with some of my best friends.
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I didn t know we were going to go there on this.
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People that I admire.
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When we say listen to your body, really tune in to what s going on.
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Authors of books that have changed my life.
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Now you re talking about sympathy, which is different than empathy.
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Never forget, it s okay to cry as long as you make it a really good one.
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Listen to A Really Good Cry with Radhi Devlukia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Hey, it s me, Blippi, and this is my best friend, Mika.
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Hi, I m Mika, and this is our brand new podcast, Blippi and Mika s Road Trip.
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The Blippi Mobile will take us to amazing places.
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And we ll meet new friends along the way.
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Listen to Blippi and Mika s Road Trip podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Imagine you asked two people the same seven questions.
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I m Minnie Driver, and this was the idea I set out to explore in my podcast, Minnie Questions.
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This year, we bring a whole new group of guests to answer the same seven questions, including Courtney Cox, Rob Delaney, Liz Phair, and many, many more.
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Join me on season three of Minnie Questions on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts.
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Seven questions, limitless answers.