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Coming up next on Passion Struck.
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So the more activity we saw on the Insula, the less likely people were to buy the item.
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It was as if we were seeing this distress signal saying, stop, don t do it.
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And it was evidence in our mind that there is what is called a pain of paying.
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that kind of serves as the brakes, like the more distress we have, the less likely we are to spend.
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And we think tightwads are particularly saddled with this pain of paying this distress.
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Welcome to Passion Struck.
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Hi, I m your host, John R. Miles.
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And on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world s most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you.
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Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself.
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If you re new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays.
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We have long form interviews the rest of the week with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes.
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Now, let s go out there and become passion struck.
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Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Episode 398 of PassionStruck.
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Consistently ranked by Apple as one of the top 10 most popular health podcasts and the number one alternative health podcast.
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Thank you to all of you who come back to the show every single week to listen and learn how to live better, be better and impact the world.
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I have a special invitation for you.
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I m excited to introduce our new PassionStruck quiz.
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It s a unique opportunity for you to discover where you stand on the PassionStruck continuum.
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Are you an orchestrator who s masterfully balancing various aspects of life with passion and purpose?
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Or are you a vanquisher, conquering challenges and turning obstacles into opportunities?
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Take the quiz on passionstruck.com and find out which one resonates more with your journey to living a passionstruck life.
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If you re new to the show, thank you so much for being here.
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Or you simply want to introduce us to a friend or a family member, and we love it when you do that.
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We now have episode starter packs, which are collections of our favorite episodes that we organize into convenient playlists that give any new listener a great way to get acclimated to everything we do here on the show.
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Just go to spotify or passionstruck.com slash starter packs to get started.
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And in case you missed it earlier in the week, I interviewed Jen Drummond, author of the new book, Break Proof, Seven Strategies to Build Resilience and Achieve Your Life Goals.
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Through our discussion, I guide you on Jen Drummond s audacious journey to conquer the seven second summit.
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With no prior experience in mountain climbing, Jen set out to achieve a feat considered by many as insurmountable.
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This isn t just an interview.
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It s a vivid testament to the unyielding human spirit, a narrative that echoes the essence of a true go-getter and underscores the vital importance of maintaining life balance, setting ambitious goals, and embracing the fullness of life.
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And if you liked that episode or today s, we would so appreciate you giving it a five-star rating and review.
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It goes such a long way in strengthening the PassionStruck community where we can help people create an intentional life.
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And I know we and our guests love to hear your feedback.
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Today in this bonus episode, we re exploring a topic that s as essential as it is often overlooked, the complex financial dance of intimate relationships.
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Joining us is Scott Rick, a renowned behavior scientist from the University of Michigan s Ross School of Business and the author of the groundbreaking guide, Tight Wads and Spendthrifts.
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Have you ever pondered the intriguing yet challenging scenario of a tightwad and a spendthrift navigating life together?
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This is the crux of our discussion today.
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Scott Rick has delved deep into this subject, recognizing the way that couples handle their finances and how it can either be a path to harmony or breeding ground for conflict.
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Our interview blends scientific research and practical advice to help couples understand and transform their financial behaviors.
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Through his extensive research and insight, Scott addresses the crucial questions that arise when partners with differing spending habits come together.
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Can a couple consisting of a tight wad and a spendthrift find financial peace?
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Scott s answer is an optimistic yes, but it comes with the caveat of engaging in honest, sometimes tough conversations about financial priorities and decision-making processes.
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We ll also delve into the heart of these financial differences, exploring how understanding your own and your partner s financial psychology is key to a harmonious relationship.
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Scott will also guide us through developing a solid game plan for couples to navigate their financial decisions together, ensuring a balanced and happy life for both tight wads and spendthrifts.
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So whether you re careful with every penny or love to indulge, this episode is set to offering valuable insights into managing money in a way that strengthens rather than strains your relationship.
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Thank you for choosing Passion Strike and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life.
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Now, let that journey begin.
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I am so excited today to welcome dr. Scott Rick on passion struck.
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Welcome Scott.
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Thank you so much, John, for having me.
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I m excited to be here.
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Well, today we re going to be discussing this great book that I have in my hands titled tight wads and spend thrifts, navigating the money minefield in real relationships.
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Congratulations.
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Thank you so much.
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It s been a exciting journey.
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I guess that begs the question.
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What got you interested in studying how people balance their financial and psychological wellbeing?
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A lot of my work is inspired by real life events.
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And I had a childhood surrounded by spendthrifts.
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I m a spendthrift raised by spendthrifts and noticed over time that not everyone behaved that way.
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Other families seem to have different approaches.
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They didn t spend their summers in Vegas like we did.
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And so I got curious about what makes everyone tick?
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How does someone become one extreme or the other?
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And later in life, I ended up marrying a tightwad.
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And so I got interested in how couples can navigate those differences.
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And more recently we ve had kids and
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There s a chapter in there about how parents can raise children to be tightwads or spinthrifts, perhaps unintentionally, despite what they might tell the kids to do, the kids are picking up on what they see the parents do.
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Yeah, a lot of it is me-search.
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It s very much inspired by my own kind of curiosities and struggles and that kind of thing.
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Okay, well, I think it s important that we define both terms because we ve all heard of people who spend money conservatively and we describe them as stingy or cheap or a miser or since we re coming out of the Christmas holiday of Scrooge.
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What are the main characteristics of a tightwad?
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Yes, that s a great question because there are many different ways to be cheap and they re all kind of cousins.
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A tightwad is a unique mindset.
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Tightwads are people who spend less than they think they should.
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They are often frustrated with their inability to spend.
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There are lots of things they recognize they probably should buy, but because spending causes a lot of anxiety or distress, they end up not buying it and they suffer as a result and the people around them suffer as a result.
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Now they look good on paper.
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If you look at their savings and debt, it looks pretty good, but
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They re not as happy as they could be because they have all these frustrating moments and regrets, frankly.
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Spendthrifts have the opposite problem.
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It s like someone cut the brakes on the car.
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They don t experience enough distress when contemplating spending and they end up spending more than they think they should.
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And they also have some regrets.
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So even though tight ones and spendthrifts look very different on paper, financially,
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they re both frustrated in some sense.
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And these are kind of unique terms, but it s different from, for example, tightwads are not frugal people.
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Frugal people, they love to save, they believe in it, they enjoy reusing items and extending the life of a product, and they re happy.
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And that s a very different flavor than tightwadism.
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Okay.
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And throughout the book for a person who hasn t read this, you go through many different descriptions of other behavior scientists whose work you ve studied.
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And two of those were Ronald Faber and Thomas Obin.
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And I thought it was interesting because they described someone who is a compulsive buyer.
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And when I think of a spendthrift, that s the first thing that came to my mind, but you write that they re actually different.
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Can you explain how?
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Yeah, they re not completely unrelated, but a compulsive buyer, that s a somewhat different psychology.
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It s often driven by depression and it can sometimes be addressed with medication.
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Antidepressants can help with compulsive buying.
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That s not something I think that would help spendthrifts.
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It s not negative affect driven shopping.
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Spinthrifts enjoy a lot of items and they re not necessarily shopping coming from that place.
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Now, certainly if a Spinthrift spends too much, they can get themselves into trouble and you can bring on kind of mental health struggles.
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But truly the compulsive shopping, the compulsive buying, I think starts with some kind of mental distress and addressing that.
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And so I don t think that s where Spinthriftism starts.
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Well, one of the things I talk a lot about on the show is how for so many people, they tie their success to material possessions, but you indicate in the book that for spendthrifts, possession-defined success is not a primary motivator.
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Why is that the case?
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Yes.
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Yes.
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So materialists, there s different aspects of materialism.
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And so one aspect is just enjoying goods.
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And spendthrifts are really high on that.
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They get excited about lots of things, lots of goods, even though they know they re going to get over it soon.
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They just don t care about what happens later so much.
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They just want the initial burst of excitement.
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A true materialist, though, is using money or goods to kind of show status and to let people know where they are in the kind of social hierarchy.
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A spendthrift, that s very incidental.
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That s very secondary to them.
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That s not what makes them tick.
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It s more about if something clears a very low threshold for a spendthrift,
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and it just somewhat triggers their interest.
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They re like, sure, I ll, I might as well buy that.
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But it s not, the primary motivation is not showing off and letting people know where they stand.
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Well, I think this is a good point since we ve gone through the difference between the Tightwad and the Spendthrift.
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You and some colleagues developed the Tightwad Spendthrift scale.
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Can you go through for the audience what it is and what you have observed it s predicted about people s behavior?
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Sure.
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Yeah, it s a little four item measure of asking people to reflect on average or historically how you tend to approach different shopping situations.
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For example, it describes kind of two people who stumble upon a big sale.
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One person says, Oh, I can finally get some stuff I need, but they just can t bring themselves to spend the money.
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Whereas the other, that s the tight one.
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Whereas the other one is like, they know they don t need anything, but they just can t resist.
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And they buy a bunch of items, that s the spin thrift.
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And it asks on a continuum, where do you fall?
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Do you resemble one more than the other?
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So just asking people to reflect on their tendencies.
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And yes, this predicts a variety of kind of financial measures, savings, debt.
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It s not related to income.
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It s not related to current income.
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So it s not the case that tightwads are tight because they just can t afford to spend.
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They might feel like they can t afford to spend.
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They might not have been able to afford to spend earlier in life.
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And they built up a protective shell that they ve carried with them that is hard to shed when their circumstances improve.
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But in terms of current income, that s not what s driving these differences.
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It also relates to overall wellbeing and happiness.
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Whereas the people in the middle of the scale, the people we call unconflicted consumers who have a modest amount of distress when thinking about spending money, not too little, not too much.
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They tend to be happiest.
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Whereas the tight ones that spend thrifts tend to be a little less happy.
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So it s a good predictor of kind of your financial and psychological wellbeing.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I took the test and I scored a 13, which put me right in the middle.
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Good.
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And congratulations.
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SPEAKER_00
I m in that group that is neither a spent thrift or a tight wad, but it s interesting because I think earlier in my life, I would have probably leaned more towards the tight wad, especially when I was growing up and was kind of trying to hold on to every dollar that I had.
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But I think over time I ve loosened up quite a bit from that, but
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It s interesting.
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Once I read the book and I started to think about some friends and family members, I started to picture where they might sit on this scale.
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SPEAKER_00
And it got me to thinking when you teach college students and they come in and they take this for the first time, what are some of the reactions that you get from them?
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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So.
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Sometimes the reactions are about the names.
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Some people don t like being called a tightwad and I say it s with love and it s not meant to be a bad thing.
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But it s interesting, people enjoy seeing where they stand relative to others.
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And as you say, thinking about kind of friends and family where they might fall.
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And they often want to know why, why do I approach things this way?
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How can there be such vast differences between people who seemingly have pretty similar upbringings?
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SPEAKER_01
We can think about money very differently.
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SPEAKER_01
It s usually the start of a conversation.
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SPEAKER_01
It s usually, it brings about like 20 different questions.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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It s just an appetizer to the meal of financial thinking.
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SPEAKER_00
And it s something that I liked when I looked at your appendix and the list of questions that you had in the back.
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SPEAKER_00
And I don t want to be a huge spoiler alert for the audience, but it has some great questions that you and your partner can go through that will allow you to analyze where you all sit on this and your relationship to money.
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SPEAKER_00
So I thought that was very interesting and it s something I d like to use myself.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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No, I say if you re in a relationship and you might ve been together for many years and you might feel like, I know this person very well.
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SPEAKER_01
If you look at those questions, I guarantee there s some, you could use a refresher on where are they right now?
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SPEAKER_01
What is their psychological roadmap looking like at the moment?
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It s important.
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You have to have some curiosity about your partner s kind of mental life.
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Absolutely.
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SPEAKER_00
On the podcast, given we re in the health area, we ve had a lot of discussions about the use of fMRI and how much it has changed the game, but I don t think we ve done one about how it shows neural activity that s tied to how we think about money.
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SPEAKER_00
And you have a task that you ve developed called the safe holdings or purchase, you call it shop task.
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SPEAKER_00
And I was hoping you might describe what that is and how you actually used fMRI to do this neural activity research.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that was an exciting study.
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So we brought people in their twenties into the lab, into the fMRI facility.
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And we gave them real money to spend.
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And we put them in the fMRI.
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And we showed them a little screen.
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And what it would do is it would show a product for four seconds.
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It would show its price for four seconds.
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And then they would have four seconds to click on a remote control.
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Yes, I want to buy at that price.
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Or no, I don t want to buy at that price.
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And then they would get two seconds to rest.
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And then it would start over with a different product.
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And we would do this for 40 to 80 different products, depending on the task.
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So they re making real decisions.
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We draw a couple to count for real at the end.
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And so this task kind of lets us isolate neural reactions to, Oh, how do you react to the product?
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How do you react to the price?
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And then how do you put it all together to make a decision?
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And so what we found was, I think the most interesting finding was that the more distress people seem to be experiencing when thinking about spending, the more activation we saw in the insula, which tends to be active when we are experiencing distressing experiences, just someone s mean to us, or they make us smell something gross, or they exclude us, our insula tends to be active.
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So the more activity we saw on the Insula, the less likely people were to buy the item.
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SPEAKER_01
It was as if we were seeing this distress signal saying, stop, don t do it.
1
SPEAKER_01
And it was evidence in our mind that there is what is called a pain of paying that kind of serves as the brakes.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like the more distress we have, the less likely we are to spend.
1
SPEAKER_01
And we think Taitwans are particularly saddled with this pain of paying, this distress.
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And so the fMRI was useful because we weren t sure that people could articulate this feeling in words in real time.
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And so we said, well, let s ask the brain rather than the person.
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Let s get a different window into these kind of subtle experiences.
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SPEAKER_01
And yeah, the evidence from fMRI and from other measures, interviews, surveys, it all kind of points to distress serving as the brakes on spending.
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SPEAKER_01
And just some people have a better break system than others.
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SPEAKER_00
And so it led to the conclusion that pain of paying should be considered a form of psychological distress rather than physical pain.
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SPEAKER_01
Yes.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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Pain is a.
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ambiguous term and other researchers said, well, what do you mean by pain?
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SPEAKER_01
So they looked at people paying for goods with either money or like enduring electric shocks.
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SPEAKER_01
And enduring electric shocks is a very different kind of neural situation.
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SPEAKER_01
It looks very different than contemplating spending money.
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SPEAKER_01
So that helped to clarify, yeah, this psychological distress, not bodily pain, not like being poked.
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SPEAKER_00
Okay.
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SPEAKER_00
And I m not sure the audience has really heard of the insula too much before.
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SPEAKER_00
So can you describe where it sits and what it controls?
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
So it s this prune sized portion of the.
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cortex folded and tucked between the frontal and temporal lobes.
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It s been described as this area where kind of feeling and thinking comes together.
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It is seen as an input to a lot of decisions involving feelings.
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SPEAKER_01
And in particular, its activity seems to often, not always, but often suggest there s some
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SPEAKER_01
anxiety or distress being experienced.
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SPEAKER_01
And so you see, for example, in other fMRI studies, if someone s been making risky gambles,
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SPEAKER_01
and then you see insula activation, that s a good predictor of them switching to safe gambles or like safe options.
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SPEAKER_01
So there s some kind of worry that it s reflecting.
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SPEAKER_01
And so people are concerned about what is, activation can mean many different things, but in this region, at least in this task, that activation was suggestive of real distress.
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SPEAKER_00
Okay.
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SPEAKER_00
Very interesting.
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SPEAKER_00
And thank you for sharing all that.
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SPEAKER_00
One of the things that you explain in the book is how our psychology influences our money handling habits and conversely, how the way we manage our finances impacts our psychological wellbeing.
2
SPEAKER_00
Can you describe that in a little bit more detail?
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SPEAKER_01
Sure.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so that was a response to the kind of common wisdom that, oh, when couples are fighting over money, it s really about some other underlying issue and the money is just a superficial excuse or it s a misleading, it s not the actual cause of the dispute.
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SPEAKER_01
And I think that can be true.
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SPEAKER_01
However, sometimes it is about the money and the money can create its own psychological dynamics that would not have come up in the couple otherwise.
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SPEAKER_01
And so it can be as simple as our account structure that we have.
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SPEAKER_01
How do we organize the flow of money within the house?
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SPEAKER_01
Do we have joint or separate accounts?
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SPEAKER_01
Do we have a combination?
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SPEAKER_01
We might not think about that very carefully when we first get together.
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SPEAKER_01
It might just be an accident of whoever sets it up and whatever they have time to think about and sign up for.
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SPEAKER_01
But that arrangement can create all kinds of
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SPEAKER_01
feelings and monitoring how much information I get about what you do with money and vice versa.
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SPEAKER_01
And so sometimes it is about the money can create good or bad psychological dynamics.
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SPEAKER_01
And so what the book tries to say is given that it s worth being a little intentional about how you set up.
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SPEAKER_01
this, these household systems about how we share money and what we know about each other s spending, because yeah, it s its own creator of new dynamics.
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SPEAKER_00
As you were just alluding to our relationship with money is complicated, no matter how much of it we have.
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SPEAKER_00
Why does this complexity tend to intensify when we re in a romantic relationship?
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SPEAKER_01
In terms of adult relationships, we spend the most time with spouses.
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SPEAKER_01
If we re in a relationship and we re spending time with another adult, that other adult s probably our spouse.
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SPEAKER_01
There s just so much opportunity to observe what the other person is doing.
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SPEAKER_01
And if they do 19 things that you think are fine, you ll just forget about them.
2
SPEAKER_01
But on that 20th thing, if they make a weird purchase or they seem to be wasting money, that s going to stick in your mind and really stand out.
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SPEAKER_01
So those mistakes or missteps, they loom large.
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SPEAKER_01
It s this idea of loss aversion that losses or mistakes loom larger than comparable good things.
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SPEAKER_01
So there s just so many chances to do something that your partner thinks is weird or wrong.
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SPEAKER_01
So there s all this observability.
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SPEAKER_01
And then there s how income is shared.
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SPEAKER_01
What if we have different amounts of income?
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SPEAKER_01
What if I work and you don t?
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SPEAKER_01
And is it my money or your money or our money?
2
SPEAKER_01
And do I feel like I m asking for an allowance or how much do we both chip in for the rent or the gifts?
2
SPEAKER_01
And then when kids are involved, like, I might be able to put up with your silliness when it s just you and me.
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SPEAKER_01
But when you re rubbing off on the next generation, I might be like, okay, could you not, you know, pass that on to our kids?
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SPEAKER_01
So yeah, whenever you add people into the home, it s just this pressure cooker.
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SPEAKER_01
And there s so many chances to have missteps and misunderstandings and
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SPEAKER_01
That s why I think it helps to take the scale for both people.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, it helps to see where you re coming from.
2
SPEAKER_01
You didn t buy me this bad gift because you don t like me or care about me.
2
SPEAKER_01
You just are really tight with money.
2
SPEAKER_01
And we spent very conservatively and we can work with that.
2
SPEAKER_01
Once we know where we re coming from, there are things we can do.
2
SPEAKER_00
You started off the conversation by self-describing yourself as a spendthrift and your wife is a tightwad.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so you have naturally opposing financial behaviors.
2
SPEAKER_00
How have you learned to have a harmonious and balanced relationship and what would your advice be to other people who face the same dynamic?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, we have a balance of joint and separate accounts.
2
SPEAKER_01
So all incoming money comes to joints.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s all our money.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then.
2
SPEAKER_01
We each get some of our money to spend without close monitoring.
2
SPEAKER_01
So some of that goes into separate accounts later.
2
SPEAKER_01
So she sees that I take X and I see that she takes Y. I don t need to know the details.
2
SPEAKER_01
They re available upon request.
2
SPEAKER_01
Hopefully the requests are few and far between.
2
SPEAKER_01
We have different hobbies and interests.
2
SPEAKER_01
We not totally, we have some common things, but she s a needle pointer.
2
SPEAKER_01
I don t know anything about that.
2
SPEAKER_01
I would be shocked if I saw the prices of some of those items.
2
SPEAKER_01
I would say, can we just get a pillow at HomeGoods that kind of looks like that?
2
SPEAKER_01
No, that s not the point.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it would totally squash her enjoyment of that activity.
2
SPEAKER_01
If I was like doing a line item, oh my gosh, thread, really?
2
SPEAKER_01
get that wholesale somewhere else, but it s this combination of shared money, but there is some privacy around how we each get to spend some of it.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I think we get a general sense, I call it financial translucency instead of financial transparency.
2
SPEAKER_01
We both need a general sense of what the other person is doing, but the details I think just cause more harm than good.
2
SPEAKER_01
I ve also learned how to be a better gift giver.
2
SPEAKER_01
As a spendthrift, I tend to throw money at, I don t want to say a problem, throw money at situations where money can solve it in my mind.
2
SPEAKER_01
I ve gotten her gifts that are like very lavish and over the top and are just not her.
2
SPEAKER_01
When I would have been better off spending a little less to get her something that like a slightly nicer version of what she would have gotten herself.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like that would have been really nice.
2
SPEAKER_01
But when I went over the top and got these lavish things, I was basically saying, Oh, I don t understand you.
2
SPEAKER_01
I was just getting it for, Oh, if I wore purses, that would be the purse I would want.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s not the purse she would want.
2
SPEAKER_01
So.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s really about understanding your partner and thinking about good gifts require sacrifice.
2
SPEAKER_01
So as a spendthrift, if I need to show sacrifice, spending a bunch of money, that s no sacrifice.
2
SPEAKER_01
I do that very easily.
2
SPEAKER_01
She sees me do it for myself all the time.
2
SPEAKER_01
So if I get her like a new iPad, like who cares?
2
SPEAKER_01
She knows that s not a big deal for me.
2
SPEAKER_01
So if I want to demonstrate sacrifice, I got to.
2
SPEAKER_01
make something, arrange something, make some plans, track down a rare item, a first edition of a book.
2
SPEAKER_01
Just for this Christmas, she s starting like a needlepoint business.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so without her knowing, I took her logo and made some like stickers that she can put on like things she mails out.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that took time and it wasn t the most expensive thing, but I hope it was thoughtful and she thought it was
2
SPEAKER_01
quite good.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and for her, though, if she wants to sacrifice, it s a different story.
2
SPEAKER_01
Of course, being thoughtful is great.
2
SPEAKER_01
But for her, if she spends a bunch of money, I know that wasn t easy for her.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s like a real sacrifice, like that hurt.
2
SPEAKER_01
So that is very flattering when she, if she were to give me a new iPad, well, that s something.
2
SPEAKER_01
So yeah, it s all about giving gifts with the understanding of what the other person knows about you and what they see as a sacrifice.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so that took me a little while to get my head straight.
2
SPEAKER_01
So it s, I think it s a pretty happy relationship because in large part, we ve navigated carefully these vast differences between us.
2
SPEAKER_00
So for someone who s listening and maybe they re not doing it as balanced a way that you guys do, what are the most significant ways in which money matters can negatively impact romantic relationships?
2
SPEAKER_01
Sure.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think there s a lot of concern out there about financial
3
SPEAKER_01
I see a lot of stories about this and couples can be on edge about, I don t know everything that you re doing.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think that tends to be overblown.
3
SPEAKER_01
A lot of what gets categorized as financial infidelity is like harmless things.
3
SPEAKER_01
So most of the problems that couples get into are decisions made right out in the open.
3
SPEAKER_01
a remodel that you can t afford or like the new Tesla you bought or just very obvious things.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I wouldn t worry so much about the hidden spin.
3
SPEAKER_01
It can happen and it can be devastating, but usually that s not what s going to hurt the couple.
3
SPEAKER_01
You want to find ways to be collaborative on the big stuff and be basically in a state of ignorance s bliss on the little stuff.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yes, you do need to have high level discussions about shared goals and plans and what vacations do we want to take?
3
SPEAKER_01
And if we have a little wiggle room, how do we want to invest this extra money?
3
SPEAKER_01
Those are all good and necessary.
3
SPEAKER_01
But you do need some autonomy also, you need some individuality.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so that s where I think the separate accounts can be useful.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I would look at how the money is flowing within the household, go to the bank, rearrange the accounts if you need to.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s important if assuming you re all in and things are going, the book is really aimed at couples where things are going good, but they could be better.
3
SPEAKER_01
If things are rocky, like very rocky, I wouldn t necessarily say, Oh, go for a joint account.
3
SPEAKER_01
Cause you have to protect yourself.
3
SPEAKER_01
If things are generally good.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_01
Rearrange how the money flows within the house.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think that s, and we have experimental evidence like this really matters for
3
SPEAKER_01
couples and it helps the earlier you do it.
3
SPEAKER_01
But even if you ve been together for a long time, learning about the other partner, learning about the gifts, I know it sounds like, oh, gifts, how important could that be?
3
SPEAKER_01
Really, it is really important.
3
SPEAKER_01
So if you can just learn about your partner and learn to be a better gift giver, that alone will help the relationship.
3
SPEAKER_01
There are other fundamental problems that maybe there are different books for about like lack of income and things like that.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I don t have a lot of tips on what to invest in or how to get rich.
3
SPEAKER_01
And there are good people for that out there, but mine is more about taking what you have and doing things in a happier way.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, thank you for sharing that.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I wanted to go back to tight wads and spend thrifts again for a second.
3
SPEAKER_00
You bring up four basic principles in the book of how tight wads can learn to loosen up.
3
SPEAKER_00
Can you go through those and how does setting up a relevant mental account far in advance of purchases help a tight wad?
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, no, I like that one a lot.
3
SPEAKER_01
So the idea there is that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Tightwads need to pre-commit to having some fun, to indulgence.
3
SPEAKER_01
If they are just put on the spot and asked to consider, do I have the money to afford this?
3
SPEAKER_01
They will find many ways to say no in the moment.
3
SPEAKER_01
We Spinthrists, we re very gifted at finding the money in the moment.
3
SPEAKER_01
But tightwads, they need to warm up to the idea of spending the money.
3
SPEAKER_01
They need to make a plan.
3
SPEAKER_01
budget.
3
SPEAKER_01
I like spending plan better than budget.
3
SPEAKER_01
So it s just earmarking the spending money in advance, well in advance, and getting used to the idea that there is some money that I will be spending on fun things.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so when I encounter that in the world, weeks or months later, it s there.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t have to look for it.
3
SPEAKER_01
And yes, left to our own devices in the moment,
3
SPEAKER_01
the tightwad will struggle to find the money.
3
SPEAKER_01
But this is a place we usually think of budgeting as ways to restrict spending, but you can actually use budgeting to loosen spending.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so I think that can help tightwads
3
SPEAKER_01
If they plan in advance, I am going to spend some money later.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s often what they need.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so I strongly recommend that for them.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then I wanted to turn it to spend thrifts because I think one of the things that happens with them is they don t learn from their past spending mistakes.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I was hoping you might discuss the story of Sammy Davis Jr.
3
SPEAKER_00
You discuss in the book as a way to illustrate this.
3
SPEAKER_01
I love Sammy.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, Sammy is my spin thrift muse.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think he took it a little too far, but he really did wrestle with this question of when do we get to eat, drink and be merry?
3
SPEAKER_01
Do we save it all for the very end or can we spread out the joy throughout life and use money to enjoy life?
3
SPEAKER_01
He made a lot of mistakes.
3
SPEAKER_01
A lot of overspending mistakes.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like I like the story of where his tax advisor is like, please stop spending.
3
SPEAKER_01
This is really desperately bad.
3
SPEAKER_01
I need to know that you understand this.
3
SPEAKER_01
And he says, yes, I do.
3
SPEAKER_01
Thank you.
3
SPEAKER_01
I really appreciate it.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then he goes, get some gold lighter engraved with his name.
3
SPEAKER_01
Thank you for the advice about not spending.
3
SPEAKER_01
So that was Sammy, but Sammy Davis, he made a lot of mistakes and he had a hard time learning from those mistakes.
3
SPEAKER_01
Part of the issue was that the mistakes were very pleasurable in the moment.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so that makes it hard to learn.
3
SPEAKER_01
But part of it was he was used to making mistakes.
3
SPEAKER_01
And when we re used to making mistakes, it s hard to learn from them.
3
SPEAKER_01
A mistake is educational when it surprises us, when it s unexpected.
3
SPEAKER_01
But an expected mistake, for example, if I go into a situation and I expect to stumble and do poorly, and then I do,
3
SPEAKER_01
There s not really a big learning opportunity there.
3
SPEAKER_01
Everything went as planned, but when you make an unexpected error, that s when you learn.
3
SPEAKER_01
But spendthrifts and tightwads, frankly, expect to make a lot of mistakes.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so it s hard to learn from those mistakes when they re just kind of part of everyday operations.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I know one thing that causes a lot of stress for people is the psychological effects of debt.
3
SPEAKER_00
How does debt overall impact our psychological wellbeing and what steps can individuals take to mitigate the stress?
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, debt is, it can really eat away at well-being, both kind of your overall psyche and just your cognitive functioning.
3
SPEAKER_01
There s evidence from like test taking with kids when they re growing up in a household with a lot of debt and a lot of struggle, like they do worse on math questions that involve money because it just prompts all these bad thoughts about these struggles at home.
3
SPEAKER_01
There s different approaches to paying down debt that have been proposed.
3
SPEAKER_01
Some people like me and my coauthors in an older paper of ours, we say, pay attention to interest rates, go after the one with the highest interest rates and try to chip that down.
3
SPEAKER_01
Other people say, well, just aim at the smallest balance, pay that off and build some psychological momentum.
3
SPEAKER_01
We like crossing things off the list.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so if you can do that one account at a time, that can be helpful, the debt snowball method.
3
SPEAKER_01
I ve critiqued that in the past, but I do think there are some people where if they re really in a bind, if they re really struggling, I do think the snowball could be perfectly reasonable just to feel like you re making progress.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that is essential to keeping at it.
3
SPEAKER_01
If you re in a, if you re in a.
3
SPEAKER_01
somewhat comfortable position, I would say, look at the numbers, go pay off the thing with the highest interest rate, devote your most of your efforts there, take a very mathematical approach.
3
SPEAKER_01
But if you re really feeling underwater and looking for kind of hope.
3
SPEAKER_01
I do think crossing debts off the list is a, is a reasonable approach.
3
SPEAKER_01
So it s again, this is for people who can t pay off everything, but they can make a little more than the minimum payments.
3
SPEAKER_01
They have some choice about where to allocate that little extra effort.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
3
SPEAKER_00
And last year, one of my favorite episodes I did was with Bob Waldinger, who currently leads the Harvard study of adult aging.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s always interesting for me to talk about happiness and what causes happiness, but there s definitely a correlation for people between money and happiness.
3
SPEAKER_00
How do you, through your research, find that relationship with money impacts our overall happiness and life satisfaction?
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, no, it helps.
3
SPEAKER_01
Money helps for sure.
3
SPEAKER_01
Certainly once you reach a certain threshold and people have argued about that threshold, maybe it s linear up to a threshold and then flattens out a bit after that.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I think the message of my work is that you can have a lot of money and be unhappy with how you use it.
3
SPEAKER_01
A lot of tight wads fall into that category.
3
SPEAKER_01
So they look good on paper, but they kick themselves for going to the bad restaurant for their anniversary or not taking the vacation.
4
SPEAKER_02
vacation or taking a worse vacation than they should have and not accumulating the life experiences and memories that they could have and would have led to a richer, happier life.
4
SPEAKER_02
By contrast, there are people who don t have a lot of money, but are spending it in ways that maximize happiness, like they re doing a lot with a little.
4
SPEAKER_02
And so that s very possible too.
4
SPEAKER_02
So it s not just about
4
SPEAKER_02
The amount that you have, it s also about, are you using it in ways that maximize happiness?
4
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I know when it comes to that, there are also hidden influences.
4
SPEAKER_01
I saw Jonah Berger gave you a acknowledgement for your book.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I ll dive a little bit into invisible influences.
4
SPEAKER_01
What are some of the less obvious factors that influence our financial decisions?
4
SPEAKER_01
Some of these things that may be invisible to us and how can we become more aware of them?
4
SPEAKER_02
Sure.
4
SPEAKER_02
I think the book would help with that kind of tuning in to some of these items.
4
SPEAKER_02
So retailers, businesses, they are skilled at making spending as painless as possible.
4
SPEAKER_02
And Amazon, they re the artist in this space.
4
SPEAKER_02
I m talking one click ordering.
4
SPEAKER_02
I m talking Amazon go stores where you just walk in, collect your items and walk out.
4
SPEAKER_02
There s no checkout process.
4
SPEAKER_02
They just scan you and they know what you bought.
4
SPEAKER_02
They charge you later.
4
SPEAKER_02
And so you want to take tension attention away from the money, leaving your possession.
4
SPEAKER_02
And retailers are, there s so many different ways to do this.
4
SPEAKER_02
There s a department store chain in the Midwest bond, Mar the Nordstrom of the Midwest and their salespeople are so skilled at making small talk at the register.
4
SPEAKER_02
I go up now, when I go in, I have to think before I get to the register.
4
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
4
SPEAKER_02
What am I doing this weekend?
4
SPEAKER_02
Cause I know they re going to ask.
4
SPEAKER_02
it s going to be a conversation.
4
SPEAKER_02
And so I go up there and I have my items and they engage me in discussion.
4
SPEAKER_02
And before I know it, I m just holding a bag.
4
SPEAKER_02
I don t remember paying for it or what happened.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s just all a blur.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s like a magician look over here.
4
SPEAKER_02
And so that is
4
SPEAKER_02
meant to reduce the pain of paying.
4
SPEAKER_02
And so if you are someone who needs to reel in your spending, it s incumbent upon you to make spending more visible and more obvious in your own mind.
4
SPEAKER_02
And for example, what I had to do when I was in grad school and money was very tight,
4
SPEAKER_02
I turned myself into a temporary tightwad.
4
SPEAKER_02
I would train myself to only spend in cash whenever possible.
4
SPEAKER_02
Go to the ATM.
4
SPEAKER_02
I would experience pain at the ATM because I d get my receipts and enter that into an Excel file and notice the deduction in my account.
4
SPEAKER_02
So pain there.
4
SPEAKER_02
And then I had pain when I would spend the cash.
4
SPEAKER_02
So double pain, all these speed bumps I would put up.
4
SPEAKER_02
I used to be like, if I couldn t pay with cash, I would do debit and I d get the receipt and take it home and enter it into my Excel file.
4
SPEAKER_02
Cause I knew I could do it better than the bank.
4
SPEAKER_02
I have a faster view of my account.
4
SPEAKER_02
And so it was just about making it very salient, the money I was spending.
4
SPEAKER_02
And that s not a recipe for the most fun life.
4
SPEAKER_02
It was a recipe for survival and it did help me survive.
4
SPEAKER_02
And that s not a way I would recommend for anyone who s comfortable right now, but it is just illustrative of the fact that.
4
SPEAKER_02
This attention to money is a dial that marketers are turning.
4
SPEAKER_02
They re turning it down all the way down and we can turn it up a little.
4
SPEAKER_02
Some of us can turn it up a lot, but we can do things that make it more obvious kind of what we re spending.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I want to end on the conclusion of your book, which is to me a very fun topic.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it s answering the age old question, should we marry for love or for money?
4
SPEAKER_01
And you write in the book, and I like these statistics, that if you Google the phrase, never marry for love,
4
SPEAKER_01
It returns about four times as many search results as never marry for money.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then a 2018 Merrill Edge survey reported that the majority, 56% of Americans say they prefer a partner that provides financial security more than head over heels love.
4
SPEAKER_01
So it appears that the answer would be more people marry for money than they do for love.
4
SPEAKER_01
But what would your answer be?
4
SPEAKER_02
I was shocked to see all that.
4
SPEAKER_02
And I was wondering, maybe the people who married for love are off having fun and the people who married for money are writing these advice columns.
4
SPEAKER_02
I don t know, but there s certainly wisdom behind both of these phrases, marry for love, marry for money.
4
SPEAKER_02
I get it.
4
SPEAKER_02
But I think there s big mistakes with those approaches.
4
SPEAKER_02
Oh, I m going to marry for money.
4
SPEAKER_02
What does that mean?
4
SPEAKER_02
Is it that easy if you don t have money?
4
SPEAKER_02
Is it so easy to marry someone who has a bunch of money?
4
SPEAKER_02
Are they welcoming you into their society and saying, Oh yeah, come hang out with us.
4
SPEAKER_02
No, it s hard.
4
SPEAKER_02
We tend to run around with people with similar socioeconomic characteristics.
4
SPEAKER_02
There s not a lot of kind of mixing between different social classes, at least not as much as there used to be.
4
SPEAKER_02
And even if you do find someone who s rich, are they super eager to share it with you?
4
SPEAKER_02
Are they going to see it as, Oh yeah, this is totally our money.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
Let s share all this.
4
SPEAKER_02
Maybe.
4
SPEAKER_02
maybe not.
4
SPEAKER_02
So practically, I think marrying for money is like hard to do.
4
SPEAKER_02
Even if it did work out, it s no recipe for a happy relationship.
4
SPEAKER_02
Because like we said, you can have all the money and still feel not so great.
4
SPEAKER_02
You can t just marry for love either.
4
SPEAKER_02
Love is totally necessary.
4
SPEAKER_02
There s different types of love.
4
SPEAKER_02
There s like the passionate love at first, and then there s like the more companionate love, just like, it s nice to have someone around to talk to and watch the Super Bowl with, that s fun.
4
SPEAKER_02
Those are both totally necessary.
4
SPEAKER_02
But you can have both, even if you have both love and money, that s not enough.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s a both and situation.
4
SPEAKER_02
You need a reasonable amount of love and money and you need a reasonable amount of psychological similarity.
4
SPEAKER_02
We need to have somewhat similar values, interests, goals,
4
SPEAKER_02
plans for this thing to work.
4
SPEAKER_02
There s a story I tell in there about someone who they were in love, everything looked good, love, money, it was all fine.
4
SPEAKER_02
But he wanted to live on a farm and raise like a bunch of kids.
4
SPEAKER_02
And she wanted to live in the city and maybe have one kid, maybe zero.
4
SPEAKER_02
And these were very strongly held interest of theirs.
4
SPEAKER_02
And there was no, if they would have stayed together, it would have been a miserable experience.
4
SPEAKER_02
So they both went their separate ways and
4
SPEAKER_02
He lived on the farm and he had a bunch of kids and he s happy.
4
SPEAKER_02
And she s in the city, one kid, she s happy.
4
SPEAKER_02
So you need that similarity.
4
SPEAKER_02
It doesn t have to be identical.
4
SPEAKER_02
You don t want to clone.
4
SPEAKER_02
That s no fun, but you have to have somewhat similar interests and values also on top of the love on top of the money.
4
SPEAKER_02
So what I m laying out in that chapter is like, it s a really high bar in terms of who you want to marry.
4
SPEAKER_02
You have to have all these things go right.
4
SPEAKER_02
Which is, it s hard to find that person, but I think it is essential.
4
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then Scott, if a listener wanted to learn more about you and the work that you do, where s the best place for them to go?
4
SPEAKER_02
Sure.
4
SPEAKER_02
Well, I think in my website, scottrick.com would be a good place.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s got linked to the book and linked to all the papers that the book is based on and yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
Or they can attend the university of Michigan Ross school of business and meet you there as well.
4
SPEAKER_02
Go blue.
4
SPEAKER_02
My door s open.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
4
SPEAKER_01
Well, thank you so much for being on the show today.
4
SPEAKER_01
It was such a pleasure to have you and congratulations on your book.
4
SPEAKER_01
It was a big thrill.
4
SPEAKER_01
Thank you so much.
4
SPEAKER_01
I thoroughly enjoyed that interview with Dr. Scott Rick and wanted to thank Scott and St.
4
SPEAKER_01
Martin s press for having him appear on today s show links to all things.
4
SPEAKER_01
Scott will be in the show notes at passionstruck.com.
4
SPEAKER_01
Please use our website links.
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If you purchase any of the books from the guests that we feature here on the show, all proceeds go to supporting the show videos are on YouTube at both John or miles, our main channel on passion struck clips, go and subscribe to both of them.
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Advertiser deals and discount codes are in one convenient place at passionstruck.com slash deals.
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Please consider supporting those who support the show.
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Additionally, I wanted to tell you about the PassionStruck 50-week challenge.
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Every week throughout 2024, I will be dropping a new challenge in our weekly newsletter.
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Sign up for the challenge by going to passionstruck.com and signing up for our newsletter.
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And then you can also join our Facebook community for support, helping you get through the challenge.
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I m at John R. Miles on all the social platforms, and you can also sign up for my work-related newsletter, Work Intentionally on LinkedIn.
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You re about to hear a preview of the Passion Struck Podcast interview that I did with Maria Menounos, a New York Times bestselling author, podcaster, and TV presenter who hosted Extra and E-News, was a TV correspondent for Today, Access Hollywood, and most recently hosted Miss Universe 3.
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We discussed not only Maria s career highs, but also the lows in her life,
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how she helped her mom battle through a brain tumor, her own experience with brain tumor, and lastly, her fight to overcome pancreatic cancer.
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We have to take a lot more ownership over the health care situation in our lives because the doctors are overwhelmed.
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You know your body better than anybody.
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At the end of the day, you have to keep fighting for answers.
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You have to keep pushing.
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If something isn t feeling right, you ve got to keep going and getting a new doctor.
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If your doctor is maybe gaslighting you.
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And that s happened to me, too.
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You just have to keep pushing.
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If the pain persists, so should you.
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You gotta keep looking.
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that you love and care about.
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And if you found today s episode on tight wads and spendthrifts entertaining or educational, then definitely share this episode with those who could use its support.
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In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so that you can live what you listen.
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In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so that you can live what you listen.
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And until next time, go out there and become Passion Strike.