2
SPEAKER_01
 my podcast and she talks about identity foreclosure.
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SPEAKER_01
And it's like the reason why you hold onto genes that don't fit you anymore because you remember how you invested in them or the reason why you get the degree, even though three years into it, you know that you don't want to do the profession.
2
SPEAKER_01
It's this idea of like, so I got to make it worth something, but instead then we're wasting our future, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
 And so- You call it identity closure?
2
SPEAKER_01
Identity foreclosure.
2
SPEAKER_00
Foreclosure.
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SPEAKER_01
Like as in I'm foreclosing this piece of me.
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SPEAKER_01
I am shutting it down because I am no longer who I was.
2
SPEAKER_01
 And it's fascinating because even being here with you today, having a book coming out, you're seeing a changed mind.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
You didn't want to do this.
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SPEAKER_01
At all.
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SPEAKER_01
I mean, you are the one person who truly witnessed how much I said I wouldn't do this.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
You're like, just go launch a course and make a bunch more money and have less stress.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
 I mean, totally.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so it's like, we are so afraid of changing and not just changing, which is scary and uncertain.
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SPEAKER_01
We're afraid of people seeing us change.
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SPEAKER_01
We're afraid of being like, I know I said this one thing, but I don't believe it anymore.
2
SPEAKER_01
 And I think that change is like growth and evolution.
2
SPEAKER_01
And like we're in this thing called life school, school of greatness, life school, where we are learning.
2
SPEAKER_01
And if we're not learning and evolving, like, what are we doing?
2
SPEAKER_01
We're missing this opportunity.
2
SPEAKER_01
But I would say for those people who are like, maybe I have this idea or whatever.
2
SPEAKER_01
 Do it as an experiment.
2
SPEAKER_01
Don't attach money to it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Don't attach deadlines.
2
SPEAKER_01
Look at how I wrote the book.
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SPEAKER_01
Do it in a way that proves to yourself that one, you're capable of taking action, but in a way that doesn't necessarily paint things as like black and white success and failure.
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SPEAKER_01
 Look at everything as an experiment.
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SPEAKER_01
I'm gonna try this thing.
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SPEAKER_01
All it's gonna do is yield a result, and that result is gonna guide my next step.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I feel like nowadays it's like, we have to define, is this a success or is it a failure?
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SPEAKER_01
No, no, no, no, no, no.
2
SPEAKER_01
I've done many things and failed.
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SPEAKER_01
I've tried many different things and been like, oh, that was not, like I did senior portraits one year.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I was like, I can make bank shooting seniors.
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SPEAKER_01
I hated it.
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SPEAKER_01
Did it for one summer, I was like, never again.
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SPEAKER_01
Was it a failure?
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SPEAKER_01
 No way, it was just a point on the path that was guiding me forward.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so I feel like getting really open to like trying things.
2
SPEAKER_01
And the other part of that is that every single time I've tried something different, it's always been a side hustle.
2
SPEAKER_01
I've not abandoned the nine to five to jump all in on something.
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SPEAKER_01
I've used the nine to five to fuel the other something.
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SPEAKER_01
 Then when I did courses, I used the courses to fuel the podcast.
2
SPEAKER_01
And when I did the podcast, you know, it's like they all pour into each other.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it's like, we're so quick to neglect something because it wasn't the perfect fit, when it's like, that can propel you forward if you lean on it.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it'll give you this ability to not feel the desperation that makes us say yes to the wrong things or do things that were never meant for us.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right, absolutely.
2
SPEAKER_00
What was the biggest identity foreclosure you've had in the last few years?
2
SPEAKER_01
 Getting rid of my Abercrombie jeans from when I was 18.
2
SPEAKER_01
 Truly, I remember how expensive those suckers were and how I saved every pretty penny.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I told myself someday they'll fit again.
2
SPEAKER_01
And guess what?
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SPEAKER_01
They don't.
2
SPEAKER_01
And they're not even in style anymore.
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SPEAKER_01
But I literally, no, I mean, that was part of it.
2
SPEAKER_01
But I think for me, moving back home, which is something Drew and I met in college in Wisconsin, lived in Wisconsin for over a decade and moved back home to Duluth, Minnesota.
2
SPEAKER_01
And
2
SPEAKER_01
 You know, one, I never thought I'd move home.
2
SPEAKER_01
There was just something about it where I was like, ah, the people that are there are still doing the same things, still the same people.
2
SPEAKER_00
Different mindsets, stuck in a ways, or whatever, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I had noticed too a trend, and I'm curious, when you go back to Ohio, if you stay where you grew up, do you kind of revert to your old self?
2
SPEAKER_00
 Maybe a little bit, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
I really love it though.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I do, because I'll hang out at the restaurants and I'll just talk to the people just like I'm there.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, like I'm from there.
2
SPEAKER_01
It's just a certain mentality.
2
SPEAKER_01
It was funny though, because whenever I would go home in college, I'd find myself sleeping on the couch again and watching MTV and eating ramen noodles.
2
SPEAKER_01
Things that were not a part of who I was, but there was just this comfort of this is what I do.
2
SPEAKER_01
I never thought I'd move back home and I had this vision
2
SPEAKER_01
 After our second loss, I hired someone to help me unpack the grief because I was
2
SPEAKER_01
 Skipped like denial and went straight to anger after our second loss So just was like what is wrong with me?
2
SPEAKER_01
Why is this happening?
2
SPEAKER_01
You know, I was very public about her first loss and felt like there was purpose there Yes, the second one you're like, this is yeah creation and anger.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and I was like, I got a lesson already I don't need this again, right and I was like praying to God like Where is your redemption song because I want to like prove how great you are and now you've let me down again and like I don't even know where to go from here and I hired this person to like
2
SPEAKER_01
 help me unpack my grief because I was like, I'm angry, I hate my body, I don't know what to do.
2
SPEAKER_01
And she like led me through this exercise and we were like sitting together and we would get on the phone once a week and every time I wanted to like hit ignore, you know, like I was just like, didn't wanna do the call.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, cause I was just like, I know this is gonna suck.
2
SPEAKER_01
 And we're like on the phone and she's like, okay, we're going to do a little exercise and I want for you to close your eyes and like breathe.
2
SPEAKER_01
And her name is Erin Treloar and she runs a really cool Instagram called Raw Beauty Talks and it's all about like coming back to your body.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so she's like having me breathe and she's like, I want for you to envision like the most vibrant version of yourself.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like you are happy.
2
SPEAKER_01
 and energized and alive.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it didn't just stop at like the vision.
2
SPEAKER_01
She's like, you know, like put your fingers in your finger slots, like step into your feet.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like I want for you to be there and like feel what it feels to like be fully alive and to enjoy your life.
2
SPEAKER_01
And she said this line and it was like, like a dial on a stereo.
2
SPEAKER_01
I want for you to turn your intuition up and turn the noise of the world down.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I was like envisioning all of this.
2
SPEAKER_01
 And in the vision, I saw this little girl and pancakes and a Persian rug.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I was wearing jeans and a white linen shirt.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I opened my eyes after the vision.
2
SPEAKER_01
I was like bawling.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I said to her, she goes, you know, what came up for you?
2
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, I think we have to move.
2
SPEAKER_01
And she was like, what do you mean?
2
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, I love the house we're in, but
2
SPEAKER_01
 there's this bedroom and it was always going to be our baby's bedroom.
2
SPEAKER_01
I get so emotional, but then I'm like, every time I walk by it, I just think about what hasn't happened.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, I just, this vision of like this long table and like this rug and this baby.
2
SPEAKER_01
And like, I see it.
2
SPEAKER_01
 And I was like, I think we've got to move.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that day, because I'm a quick action taker.
2
SPEAKER_00
Literally.
2
SPEAKER_01
I get on Zillow and I type in Duluth, Minnesota, and Drew and I had never talked about moving home.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like it was like, maybe we'll move to Minneapolis someday.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like, you know, kind of stay in the city.
2
SPEAKER_00
Where were you living at this time?
2
SPEAKER_01
We were in a really small town in Wisconsin called Fort Atkinson.
2
SPEAKER_01
 And we had great friends and stuff, but we didn't have the support of a family.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I found this house on Zillow and I text my family text thread as a joke and say, maybe this will be the Kutcher Craftsman.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like it was this beautiful home in Minnesota.
2
SPEAKER_01
We had never talked about it.
2
SPEAKER_01
 Drew is out on a run and his phone starts blowing up because my family's like, move home, move home, come home.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, he gets home and he's like, what is going on in your family text thread?
2
SPEAKER_01
Like, it's going crazy.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, did you see the listing?
2
SPEAKER_01
He's like, what listing?
2
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, I saw this house in Minnesota and I thought he would be like, you know, maybe three years from now.
2
SPEAKER_01
And he was like, oh, we can do that.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, what?
2
SPEAKER_01
And
2
SPEAKER_01
 You know, it's crazy because I didn't necessarily move because of the vision, but it was like the first thing where I was like, you know, where we are is not working for me.
2
SPEAKER_01
The craziest part is this, Lewis, we didn't move for like seven, eight months.
2
SPEAKER_01
The day after we moved in, I took a positive pregnancy test.
2
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
2
SPEAKER_01
 It was literally, I always say I'm like, it's like I had to move home and be grounded at home.
2
SPEAKER_01
It just felt like this crazy moment where it was like, I'm home and I'm ready and this is it.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that next day you moved in.
2
SPEAKER_01
That's crazy.
2
SPEAKER_01
It's crazy.
2
SPEAKER_00
When was this?
2
SPEAKER_01
April 1st of 2017.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh my gosh.
2
SPEAKER_01
Or 2018, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
 So it was like, it's like right after the mastermind that, yeah, it was that next year.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it was like, and here's the thing that's so wild about my journey, because, you know, one in four women experiences pregnancy loss, is that when you're in it, I mean, it is dark.
2
SPEAKER_00
I can imagine.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I often think about it's like if you were like walking through like a warehouse and it's just like pitch black.
2
SPEAKER_01
 and you're literally just like inching step by step like you don't know where you're going.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it's like you just, you have a flashlight so you can only see like directly in front of you.
2
SPEAKER_01
And once you get through it, it's like somebody turned the lights on and you see where you were and why you were there.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I hate the line like everything happens for a reason because when you are in it, there is zero reason why.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, there is no reason why that happened.
2
SPEAKER_01
But our like three year waiting season,
2
SPEAKER_01
 I can see now with hindsight was required for me to build a life that supported what I was waiting for.
2
SPEAKER_01
When I first was pregnant with my first pregnancy, I was shooting 25 weddings a year.
2
SPEAKER_01
I remember we were in Hawaii and I looked up the due date and I was like,
2
SPEAKER_01
 I can't be due then, I have like four more weddings.
2
SPEAKER_01
I'm gonna like have to cancel on these.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like I literally was like- It's like you were sabotaging your body.
2
SPEAKER_01
It was like I didn't know how I would do it.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
2
SPEAKER_00
Your body's like, we're not gonna let you do it then.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, like it's crazy.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then the second time around was a huge wake up call because I found out that I had lost the baby, but my body was still pregnant and I had to show up and shoot a wedding the next day.
2
SPEAKER_00
 Oh my gosh.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so I had to pretend like I was the happy, you know, the happy wedding photographer.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so when I look at those losses, they were massive teachers in my life.
2
SPEAKER_01
But by the time I was pregnant for the third time, I had built a life where I was able to move and I wasn't tied to anything and I had no clients to answer to and I had built that.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so there's this quote that I heard from a preacher and it's like, sometimes
2
SPEAKER_01
 the season of waiting is just as important as what it is that we're waiting for.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think a lot of people find themselves in seasons of waiting and it's really easy to want to like twiddle your thumbs and just sit there, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
Like just wait and wait and wait.
2
SPEAKER_01
But I think we waste it and it's like, I worked while I waited and I don't mean like I hustled.
2
SPEAKER_01
I worked towards the life I wanted for when the time came.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it was so evident when it happened.
2
SPEAKER_00
That's inspiring.
2
SPEAKER_01
 crazy story and it's one that I don't tell often and there's a line in my book that says like okay I know this story is wild but like you don't have to move zip codes to start living more into yourself.
2
SPEAKER_01
 One of the things I realized after that vision was, my vision was jeans and a white linen shirt.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I looked down and I was wearing sweatpants and like a college t-shirt.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, you know what?
2
SPEAKER_01
Maybe I just start putting on the jeans.
2
SPEAKER_01
Maybe I don't have the baby and the pancakes and the Persian rug, but maybe I can just start dressing the way that I would dress if I was vibrant and alive and healthy.
2
SPEAKER_01
 Maybe I just take a tiny step of becoming.
2
SPEAKER_01
I can't control the outcome of having a baby, but I can control showing up as a more vibrant version of myself right now.
2
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
2
SPEAKER_00
You said during the season, the dark season, that it's hard to think about, this is all happening for a reason, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
What do you think we can think about during a dark season?
2
SPEAKER_00
If someone deals with anything dark in their life,
2
SPEAKER_00
 What should they, how should they be processing or thinking about it as opposed to, oh, well, maybe this is happening for a reason.
2
SPEAKER_01
I don't think that, yeah, I agree.
2
SPEAKER_01
I don't think that language is helpful when you're in it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_01
Because there are so many tragedies and things that shouldn't happen or that you shouldn't have to experience.
2
SPEAKER_01
There's this line in my book that talks about grief because we talk about it and it says that a lot of times people want to move on from grief.
2
SPEAKER_01
 You're waiting for life to feel normal again.
2
SPEAKER_01
You're waiting to feel like yourself.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I say grief isn't something that we're meant to move on from.
2
SPEAKER_01
It's something we're meant to move with.
2
SPEAKER_01
We're meant to pick it up and carry it with us, even if we're inching forward.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like we're getting stronger because of the things we've been through.
2
SPEAKER_01
 You're not meant to come out on the other side of grief the same person you were when you went into it, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
What a wasted opportunity for tragedy.
2
SPEAKER_01
And in my life, loss has probably been my greatest teacher, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
I look at those lost pregnancies and I'm like, they were somehow looking out for me.
2
SPEAKER_01
 And it doesn't mean that it wasn't hard or that I literally think about those babies every single day.
2
SPEAKER_01
But if I wasted that and like didn't use it, that would be a real loss.
2
SPEAKER_00
That's the tragedy.
2
SPEAKER_01
That's the tragedy.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I think oftentimes it's like we sit in the loss and we waste that time when we need to just slowly start moving with it and carrying it with us as a changed person.
2
SPEAKER_01
 I don't know a single person who has been through anything tragic in their life.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, you lost your dad.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like you are a different person than even a few months ago.
2
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so I, I believe that we've got to like change the notion of like, Oh, you're going to be back to normal in a month or like this expectation.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it's like, we've got to invite people to like evolve and move forward at their own pace.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I always liken grief, like for me, and it might be different for you, but for me,
2
SPEAKER_01
 I always think about Lake Superior.
2
SPEAKER_01
We have a place on Lake Superior, and there are some days where I can stand on the shore and watch how mighty and powerful it is, and just stand there in awe.
2
SPEAKER_01
And there are some days where it feels like, grief makes me feel like I'm literally getting sucked under in the current and I can't even stay afloat.
2
SPEAKER_01
And there's a huge difference between the days where you can be like, yeah, that was hard, and I'm, you know,
2
SPEAKER_01
 I can see the power of that and stuff and there are days where you're like triggered or something and it's like you are sucked under.
2
SPEAKER_01
 And we don't give ourselves enough space to have those different types of days.
2
SPEAKER_01
And you don't know when they're gonna land.
2
SPEAKER_01
I still think about the due dates of my first pregnancies.
2
SPEAKER_01
Or I celebrate a kid's birthday and I'm like, my kid should be that old.
2
SPEAKER_01
So it's like if we don't give ourselves a grace of like, some days I'm getting sucked in.
2
SPEAKER_01
I need a life raft.
2
SPEAKER_01
And some days I'm just standing there being like, wow, that was powerful.
2
SPEAKER_01
 I mean, it's all a part of the process of grief, you know?
2
SPEAKER_00
I hear you.
2
SPEAKER_00
We're in it.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's been coming in waves for me for the last two months, too.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, since my dad passed, it's like some days I feel okay and then other days it's like I hear a song and it triggers me and I just feel really sad or vulnerable or grieving.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, it's a process.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's a journey.
2
SPEAKER_01
A lifelong process, I think.
2
SPEAKER_00
 Oh, man, I'm really excited for this.
2
SPEAKER_00
Your book, How Are You Really?
2
SPEAKER_00
I want people to check it out at JennaKutcher.com or follow you everywhere on social media at Jenna Kutcher.
2
SPEAKER_00
 your podcast as well, the Goal Digger podcast.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you're thinking of entrepreneurship and business and branding and marketing, go listen to that.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's a powerful, powerful podcast.
2
SPEAKER_00
You've got tons of courses and programs and things for people to help who are creators, entrepreneurs online as well.
2
SPEAKER_00
So they can get it all at JennaKutcher.com.
2
SPEAKER_00
Is there anywhere specifically we should go for the book?
2
SPEAKER_01
 Yeah, you can go to HowAreYouReallyBook.com and we've got a landing page and all the spots you can grab it.
2
SPEAKER_01
And, you know, as someone who said I would never do this, I've never worked harder on something in my life and I've never wanted it to be in the hands of more people.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so I really am excited.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, a book is a lot.
2
SPEAKER_00
It can be a lot.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, no one does a book and just like kind of...
2
SPEAKER_00
 Half-hazardly puts it out there.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's so much effort and energy and something we really care about when we launch a book.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's interesting.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's probably why a lot of people are resistant of doing it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know what's interesting is as content creators and digital creators,
2
SPEAKER_01
 The fact that you worked on something for two years without revealing it, crazy.
2
SPEAKER_01
But you know what?
2
SPEAKER_01
It's been such a great lesson for me of like sitting on something, waiting on it, revising it, editing, editing, editing, like where it's like, you know, done is better than perfect in a lot of ways.
2
SPEAKER_01
And a lot of times it's good to take that imperfect action.
2
SPEAKER_01
And when you do something like this, you're really taught
2
SPEAKER_01
 Patience in the process and it's been a really good teacher for me and you could also get caught up in never being done Yeah, so someone said deadline.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, there's a reason why it's called a book release Uh-huh, and it's like you're releasing it out into the world because you could literally know for years And they never put it out, that's right and
2
SPEAKER_00
 I mean there's so many things I could change in my previous books still today.
2
SPEAKER_00
I'm like I could have added this or taken this out.
2
SPEAKER_00
You always can do it.
2
SPEAKER_00
So it's a yes and.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's like okay how can I give it the patience, the time, the energy, the revisions and also
2
SPEAKER_01
 Release it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Release it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like there's going to be something that could be changed.
2
SPEAKER_00
I'm very excited for you.
2
SPEAKER_00
Howareyoureallybooked.com.
2
SPEAKER_00
Make sure you guys go check it out.
2
SPEAKER_00
Get a few copies for your friends.
2
SPEAKER_00
All the bonuses and all that stuff.
2
SPEAKER_00
JennaKutcher.com.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is a question I ask everyone at the end called The Three Truths.
2
SPEAKER_00
So imagine it's your last day on Earth many years away from now.
2
SPEAKER_00
You live as long as you want to live.
2
SPEAKER_00
You get to do all the things you want to do.
2
SPEAKER_00
But for whatever reason, everything you've created has to go to another place.
2
SPEAKER_00
 The book, podcast, social media content, everything's gone.
2
SPEAKER_00
No one has access to your information anymore.
2
SPEAKER_00
But you get to leave behind three lessons with the world that you've learned, three truths.
2
SPEAKER_00
What would be those truths for you?
2
SPEAKER_01
Time is your currency.
2
SPEAKER_01
Everything is temporary.
2
SPEAKER_01
And you'll never regret the time you spend with the people you love.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, amen to that.
2
SPEAKER_00
 I want to acknowledge you, Jenna.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's been a beautiful journey since I've known you.
2
SPEAKER_00
2017, since I first met you.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Not a while.
2
SPEAKER_00
25 years, almost 6 years now.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the way you show up for yourself, the way you show up for your family, for your kids.
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 for your dreams, for your health, everything.
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You make decisions that aren't popular sometimes, you do things that are against the norm, but you do them your way and you do them in a way that works for you, that makes you feel peace and healthy and loved.
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And so I think that's really beautiful that you're giving and creating and serving people and also reminding yourself to make sure you serve yourself in that process.
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 and not lose yourself in that process.
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So I really acknowledge you.
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Very proud of you.
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Very grateful for you and your friendship and everything.
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Thank you for having me on the show.
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And you know, it's it really is a full circle moment of like, Drew and I often talk about how
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 Being a part of your mastermind changed my life in so many ways.
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And so thank you for being that leader.
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But thank you for being my friend, too.
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Of course.
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Yeah, I'm happy.
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I'm always wanting to facilitate, you know, facilitate experiences for people.
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My final question is, what's your definition of greatness?
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Doing what you love, being with the people you love, but doing it in a way that feels good and doesn't just look good.
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 Thank you so much for listening.
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I hope you enjoyed today's episode and inspired you on your journey towards greatness.
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Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links.
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And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple podcasts as well.
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 I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most.
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And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.
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And now it's time to go out there and do something great.