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The reason I m such an expert on cheating is because, well, I cheated, got caught.
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And I remember talking to Rick Rubin.
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He s in the book, so it s not.
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He s the producer.
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He s like, you did all this for, like, sex that wasn t that good anyway.
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Right, right, right.
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You know, that wasn t even a great experience.
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It wasn t worth it.
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Yeah.
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And so what s wrong with you?
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And it took a long time of talking to him to recognize something was broken in me.
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Our next guest became the world s greatest pickup artist.
0
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Former New York Times rock critic Neil Strauss, one of the most renowned and respected pickup artists in the world.
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Please say hello to Neil Strauss.
0
SPEAKER_00
Please welcome.
0
SPEAKER_00
Welcome to the day, Neil Strauss.
0
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Well, you know why you ve never been in a relationship.
0
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You know why?
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And she goes, well, because your mom wants to be in a relationship with you.
0
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And then, like, as soon as she said it, wow, like, logically made no sense.
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My whole body felt the truth of it.
0
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I felt it, like, just.
0
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I ll never, I ll literally never, that moment, exact moment changed my life.
0
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When people lie, they think they re protecting the person or something, but they re not.
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They protect themselves from feeling uncomfortable emotions from that person.
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They re like, I can t deal with your emotions, so I m not going to tell you what I m doing in case you have an emotion that I m uncomfortable with.
0
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
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Do you have any signs that you can see if someone potentially would be a cheater that you re getting into a relationship with?
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Totally.
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I mean, yes, totally.
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Wow.
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Here s a great hack that I haven t heard other people talk about, but it s also affordable, powerful, it will change your life.
0
SPEAKER_01
Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness.
0
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Very excited about our guest.
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We have the inspiring Neil Strauss in the house, my man.
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Awesome.
0
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So good to see you.
0
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Good to see you again.
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I think we met originally about 13, 14 years ago.
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And one of the first interactions I had with you was at your house.
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You were doing an interview show with a number of porn stars.
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And since I ve met you over the last 13, 14 years, we ve had a number of interactions.
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You worked on so many high level books, projects, podcasts.
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You were originally famous, I think, for writing The Game.
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Then you wrote The Truth.
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You now got a podcast that s about Russian spies on how women can manipulate men and persuade them to falling in love with them.
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You ve had these wide range of topics and conversations that you ve dived into for 20, 30 years.
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And I m fascinated with your idea on relationships, because really you re a person who understands relationships from all the journalism that you ve done, the interviews, the books, the conversations.
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And the first thing I want to talk about is, again, you went from the game to the truth.
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One was black, one was white.
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And I want to talk about cheating first, because I think cheating is a hot topic right now.
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in relationships, but also just hookup culture.
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I think people are in this world of hookup culture with social media.
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And I m curious, do you think someone can be in a monogamous long-term relationship after they ve cheated, first off?
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And also, from all the interviews you ve done, do you have any signs that you can see if someone potentially would be a cheater that you re getting into a relationship with?
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Totally.
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I mean, yes, totally.
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So they re absolutely signs.
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Before you say that, by the way, it s just so great seeing you because when we met all those years ago, I remember you were sort of looking for your place.
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I remember like you were sort of like, okay, I m going to transition from like,
0
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Sports to sort of like doing something that helps other people and I remember sitting on my couch and talking about that And really seeing like how much I really had this great feeling I can like I knew like this is gonna work out for him because you just have this quality of besides greatness is like
0
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You re a very likable guy and you communicate yourself with so much heart.
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I m like, oh, that s, he s like going to be great.
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And so it s been so fun to watch your career and check in over the years.
0
SPEAKER_02
I appreciate it.
0
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So, so, so, so back to the question, there were two questions.
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The first one was, can a relationship recover after cheating?
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And the second one is what are signs to spot someone who would cheat?
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So the first answer is, a relationship can absolutely recover out of cheating, but not by someone promising not to cheat again.
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Really?
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Right?
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Because what happens is, there s a cycle that happens, which is someone…
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They get caught.
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They re not guilty about it until they get caught, usually.
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Right?
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There s a pain, there s a wound, there s a trauma afterwards, right, from the other person.
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And then the relationship they currently have is then threatened.
0
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They go get fearful and desperate of abandonment, and they promise anything to get that safety and security again.
0
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Interesting.
0
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Once they get the safety and security again, they then rebel against it and cheat again.
0
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Really?
0
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, that s the pattern.
0
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How many people would you say cheat one time in a relationship, repair, and then cheat again?
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What do you think that percentage is?
0
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I guess I couldn t tell you the percentage, but they re saying, for me, one shame on you, for me, twice shame on me.
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However,
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Being somebody, like, the short version of the answer is, you can if you actually do the work to change, right?
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So in other words, if someone says, I cheated, that s
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I really need to look at myself and why I would do that to somebody I supposedly do love and care about and in a relationship with or married to or live with or have children with.
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And I m really going to do the work on myself and to really understand.
0
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First of all, they have to own it entirely, 100%.
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One important message about cheating is that it s...
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It s so hard when you re cheating on to think, what did I do, or what did I do wrong, or it s my fault, or you have nothing to do with it.
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There s nothing that is your fault that makes someone else act outside of their integrity.
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So we ll talk about the cheating later.
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But they have to do the work, which is why did they do it, what was going on, what was the wound, and then actually do the real work to repair that wound and become whole again, and then relationship as possible.
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Flip side of that.
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So a partner, this is too much, because it s such a broad topic.
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I love it.
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So the cheater can repair and can really repair, but the relationship can still not work out.
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And this is because the person who was cheated on can experience, does experience what s called betrayal trauma.
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It literally is a trauma.
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Being cheated on is a trauma and betrayal.
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And sadly, even though you re the victim in this situation, it s a trauma, one that it s important to heal from.
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So a lot of times, how do you have forgiveness?
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How do you have trust again?
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You can t repair a relationship unless that trust is restored gradually over time.
0
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Now, you ve had many, I mean, open conversations in your books and on interviews, you know, from the game to the truth.
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And the truth, you talked about how you were in an open relationship.
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So I think you lived in a house at one point with like everyone in a relationship with everyone type of thing.
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Yeah, you were at that house.
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It was that same house.
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Right, right.
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Everyone, it was like a bunch of people lived together and just had open love, essentially.
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And because I think at one point you said, this is the way.
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and then you flipped it to no monogamy and intimacy with one person and commitment, that s the way.
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And then, you know, it s kind of gone back and forth.
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Where are you now in terms of relationships of what is a healthy, loving way to be in the best relationship possible?
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I mean, I think to back it up, I really, when I started writing the book, The Truth, I think it s interesting you, for me, I start writing a book with a question and the book tells me the answer, right?
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Not saying, because I started, or I really thought, started writing the book thinking monogamy isn t natural, monogamy doesn t work, it s just there are all kinds of evolutionary reasons why that support this.
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But what I ve actually found out, and I think this is 100% true,
0
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just about everybody, is that if you are not healthy in one kind of relationship, you won t be healthy in the other kind of relationship.
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So I found there are so many couples in, or throuples or whatever you want to call them, in open relationships, in polyamorous relationships, that still cheat.
0
SPEAKER_02
Really?
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And I found it happened so often.
0
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But cheating might be like, okay, you can, there s some just small rules, like just be protected.
0
SPEAKER_02
Right?
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SPEAKER_02
And they get carried away, you know, or don t do that, or this or that, or being honest.
0
SPEAKER_02
So I found that the amount of cheating happens the same almost in all relationships across the board.
0
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02
Even in open relationships, people still cheat.
0
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, they re still cheating or betrayal or this.
0
SPEAKER_02
And again, there are some that are amazingly healthy and great ones I ve seen, but, and just like they re healthy monogamous relationships.
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But that said,
0
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believe if you re not healthy in one kind of relationship, you won t be healthy in another kind of relationship.
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And what I found was separate from monogamy, polyamory, ethical non-monogamy, all those things, and just get healthy and secure in yourself, and any kind of relationship will work.
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Wow.
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That said, to have a healthy relationship,
1
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like non-monogamous relationship it takes a lot more work on yourself in terms of communication and you know emotional maturity and all those sorts of things.
1
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Do you know anyone in a 20-30 year plus
1
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open relationship, that have been together themselves, but are in an open relationship, that have a thriving relationship, healthy, conscious relationship together, lots of love, lots of trust, have kids, and have raised healthy, conscious kids as well.
1
SPEAKER_01
Have you seen that?
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SPEAKER_00
I have seen it.
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Really?
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I have seen it.
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And I think, in a sense, I think that
1
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Let me start with this.
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There s actually a study on polyamorous families that showed, and again, I guess studies can show anything, right?
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Right, right.
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You can prove whatever point you want.
1
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Exactly.
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I think there s even a study on studies that shows it just confirms the bias that the researcher had at the beginning, especially in psychological studies.
1
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But that said,
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Children born and healthy like poly poly families Grew up healthier because I think it actually makes sense if you have more loving caregivers Like how great is that instead of just mom and dad?
1
SPEAKER_00
Wow, that s interesting.
1
SPEAKER_00
But uh, but the answer is the unhealthy version of an open relationship is when one partner wants to
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explore other partners, the other partner doesn t, but they don t want to lose that partner.
1
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So they re like, reluctantly accept it.
1
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That s the unhealthy version.
1
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But they don t really want it, but they accept it because they don t want to lose something.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
1
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So they just go along with it, even though it s against the way they feel.
1
SPEAKER_01
Is that a lack of self-worth or a lack of creating boundaries in that person?
1
SPEAKER_00
I think it comes from both sides.
1
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I think one side has that narcissism.
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Right?
1
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It s the balance.
1
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One side is narcissism and the other side has the opposite, insecurity.
1
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And together, that s how that dynamic works.
1
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So I think it s sort of found on both sides.
1
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Versus a healthy one is, if you think about it this way, there s three entities in a relation, which is the person, one partner, the other partner, and then the relationship itself.
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Or if there s more partners, you can do it.
1
SPEAKER_00
But the relationship itself, and if you, so if you re going to choose to explore and
1
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Think I really think that most a lot of couples want to explore.
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There s just fears attached to that Yes, right just to even just for a night or a weekend like but there s fears attached to that So I think we should kind of remove those definitions and I ll talk about that in a second But I think everything you do should be healthy for all three entities.
1
SPEAKER_00
So in other words, we re in a relationship, but like I feel I
1
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I want to just go have another experience with someone else, and you re going to let me even though it hurts you?
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, that s not good for you or the relationship.
1
SPEAKER_00
So if you think about what can be good for all three, and if it s a yes or a green light, then go.
1
SPEAKER_01
But it s got to be healthy for all three.
1
SPEAKER_01
If it s not, then you re fracturing a part of the relationship.
1
SPEAKER_01
You re fracturing yourself, or you re fracturing the relationship, or the person you re with.
1
SPEAKER_01
So it s choosing out of a place of conscious integrity that is best for all three, I guess.
1
SPEAKER_01
Well said.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s good.
1
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But if one is against it, then you can t really choose that then.
1
SPEAKER_01
And you have to either accept that or not be in the relationship I guess, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
And the other key is a lot of people want to explore outside because they re lacking something in their relationship and like the smartest kind of polyamorous sort of
1
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experts that I spoke to said, and I think this is so true, your partner has to have an abundance of you before you, to start with, and then they re on that secure platform.
1
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But if you re like, this is starting not to work, maybe we should try some other things, that s gonna go downhill quickly.
1
SPEAKER_01
So why do you think, because not all monogamous relationships work out, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
People are not happy after 20, 30 years, but they re monogamous, I guess.
1
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What do you think are the keys of a happy, healthy, monogamous relationship?
1
SPEAKER_01
What are each partner doing for themselves and for the relationship?
1
SPEAKER_00
As a note, I think it s the same for all relationships.
1
SPEAKER_00
And the way I think about it, because it s funny when you ask the question whether you re monogamous or this or that, I think that
1
SPEAKER_00
that a relationship should be a constant discussion and it can evolve.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like imagine you re just working a job and you re like, this job is never gonna change.
1
SPEAKER_00
Don t even discuss it changing.
1
SPEAKER_00
This is your job forever.
1
SPEAKER_00
But people grow and people change and you can have discussions.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, as an example, when I had that Sirius radio show, the engineer, I think this is okay to share.
1
SPEAKER_00
His,
1
SPEAKER_00
A wife was going through menopausal for several years.
1
SPEAKER_00
She said, you know what?
1
SPEAKER_00
I feel bad for you.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, I don t want to be touched.
1
SPEAKER_00
I want to think physical.
1
SPEAKER_00
You should go have some experiences and get that need met.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then she thought that was healthy for him.
1
SPEAKER_00
It was good for her because she wants him to be happy and it s good for the relationship.
1
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
1
SPEAKER_00
So these things can change.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I think I like the idea of a relationship is just
1
SPEAKER_00
I love you and I m committed to you, and let s just see what grows from there and is the most exciting for us.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think each individual focusing on their own happiness and the happiness of their partner and saying how can we both be happy together, I think that s really key at the end of the day.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
When do you feel like has been the most insecure time of your adult life and the most secure time of your adult life?
1
SPEAKER_01
in a relationship and out of a relationship.
1
SPEAKER_01
Can you think about those times?
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, for sure.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think the most insecure time in a relationship, and again, I m just being super… I don t think I really talked about this, but I think the most insecure time…
1
SPEAKER_00
is probably right after my wife at the time had our first child.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think I wasn t ready.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was really ready to be a good parent, all the stuff we know about trauma and healing.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m like, I can, this is a chance to write to the wrongs of the previous generations before us and live what I talk about.
1
SPEAKER_00
But what I wasn t ready for was how that affected our relationship.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so I d say the most insecure time was when all of a sudden, all of a sudden, for the next couple of years,
1
SPEAKER_00
Any need It does say in my case.
1
SPEAKER_00
It was sort of it was all very overwhelming for her combined with postpartum and the things that are going on with that that that that just kind of sort of completely disconnected and The relationship or yourself they were the relationship to the degree that I remember I was doing it I was doing my podcast about
1
SPEAKER_00
with the missing persons case.
1
SPEAKER_00
To Live and Die in LA.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
Incredible podcast.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I was getting a death threat from someone.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I was trying to tell her about it.
1
SPEAKER_00
And she s like, listen, I have no time for you.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m like, but I m getting, someone s trying to kill me.
1
SPEAKER_00
She s like, just enough, what?
1
SPEAKER_00
I m like, and because I m recording everything, this is a podcast.
1
SPEAKER_00
I literally have it on tape.
1
SPEAKER_00
I didn t put it on the podcast.
1
SPEAKER_00
But I was like, man, I m like, but by the way,
1
SPEAKER_00
I think it s important to say that she was just overwhelmed in that capacity.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s not like she was, she was just at capacity.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think the toughest time for me then was having no space and my partner having no space, no space.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I think it s tough.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think it was something I wish hopefully for those of you who had children on the way or first, or sometime in the future can prepare you for it is like,
1
SPEAKER_00
is that it s really hard on the other part.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s hard on both partners.
1
SPEAKER_00
Imagine you re going through postpartum.
1
SPEAKER_01
Your identity s changing.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, the husband s still running around doing exactly what he did before and somehow it just feels, even though you can spend the time exactly equally, I just think for the person who carried the baby,
1
SPEAKER_00
It feels like her responsibility.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s such a, I feel like, I d love to see a book.
1
SPEAKER_00
I can suggest someone write it for, it s not about parenting, but about relationshiping after having kids.
1
SPEAKER_00
So that was the most insecure time.
1
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
1
SPEAKER_00
When s been the most secure time for you in your adult life?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, the most secure time.
1
SPEAKER_00
Same relationship right before the child.
1
SPEAKER_00
And this speaks to exactly your first question.
1
SPEAKER_00
By the way, thank you.
1
SPEAKER_00
I love this conversation because it s like these are things I think about all the time.
1
SPEAKER_00
So it s so interesting to talk about is that the reason I m such an expert on cheating is because, well, I cheated, got caught.
1
SPEAKER_00
did, went to, not just to rehab, but really just made it a mission.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m like, whether this relationship works out or not because of what I did, I want to be a better person who lives inside my own values system.
1
SPEAKER_00
And at least, because why would I hurt somebody who I love, who I care about, who I want to get married, we weren t married at the time.
1
SPEAKER_00
And just really, it took like a long time, but healed so much.
1
SPEAKER_00
We can talk about the steps I did or the things I did if helpful.
1
SPEAKER_01
How long were you in the relationship for committed?
1
SPEAKER_01
And again, when was the first time you cheated within the relationship?
1
SPEAKER_01
I guess how long after you were committed?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, we were probably, I want to say it was maybe about like a couple years and then maybe like nine months in or something.
2
SPEAKER_01
like that and it was like and I remember talking to and it s in the book so it s not uh to to like my kind of friend mentor to Rick to Rick Rearman he was he s in the book so it s not he s the producer and in the truth yeah and the truth yeah so so he s like he s like you did all this for like sex that wasn t that good anyway right right right you know that wasn t even a great experience and like it wasn t worth it yeah and so what s wrong with you and it took a long time and talking to him to to to sort of
2
SPEAKER_01
recognize something was broken in me.
2
SPEAKER_01
What do you think are the main reasons a guy or a girl might cheat?
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, by the way, just to finish that second part of the question.
2
SPEAKER_01
So after I did all the work on myself, and this speaks to the monogamy, and I got back in the relationship.
2
SPEAKER_01
Uh-huh.
2
SPEAKER_00
So you went to rehab.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
And to kind of heal the wounds, or the root cause of why you wanted to cheat, or?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I think actually rehab is not enough.
2
SPEAKER_01
I literally think rehab should be a year long.
2
SPEAKER_01
But it s hard to sell if it s a year long.
2
SPEAKER_01
But it takes a long time to rewire those patterns that have been built up in our brain over 17, 18 years of childhood and then reinforced over another 10 or 20 years of adult living.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I probably went to several rehabs.
2
SPEAKER_01
I really made it a project, almost like this podcast or a book we do or something.
2
SPEAKER_01
I made it my healing is the most important project in my life.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so I really did and tried.
2
SPEAKER_00
everything until... What did you learn in, I guess, sex rehab, or what s the rehab called?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
It was called like, yeah, it was like sex addiction rehab or whatever.
2
SPEAKER_01
But a lot of it, to me, felt like a, maybe it s just splitting, calling it a nicer word, but it felt like an intimacy disorder.
2
SPEAKER_01
But what I learned there, I ll tell you what I learned there.
2
SPEAKER_01
But just to finish the point was, once I was back in the relationship,
2
SPEAKER_01
Like I felt so, I didn t need to look at people on so, you know, just little things.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like I felt so happy to be with her.
2
SPEAKER_01
I felt so committed.
2
SPEAKER_01
Same person, I just changed.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then those three things, the relationship and she changes within that.
2
SPEAKER_01
So side note, if you want to change your relationship, something s wrong.
2
SPEAKER_01
The only thing you have control over is yourself.
2
SPEAKER_01
If you change yourself, the whole system changes and gets better.
2
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
2
SPEAKER_01
So that s literally like all you have to do to make your relationship better is actually change yourself and stop trying to get someone else to change.
2
SPEAKER_00
Why is it so hard for people to want to look within and change the things about them that might be broken or
2
SPEAKER_00
that need improvement on?
2
SPEAKER_00
Why is it so hard for us to look in the mirror and say, I need to work on me?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, because it s so much easier to criticize someone else.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s so easy to look at all of Twitter is people looking what s wrong with the world and everyone else.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then would they do better in that position?
2
SPEAKER_01
Probably not.
2
SPEAKER_01
They d be defending their own behavior.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I think it s, I think,
2
SPEAKER_01
I think it s really hard, and I ve worked really hard on it, to say I have no control over anyone else.
2
SPEAKER_01
And before I accuse anyone of anything, like how, what s my, how am I contributing here?
2
SPEAKER_01
What s my part in it?
2
SPEAKER_01
What am I doing?
2
SPEAKER_01
How am I engaging?
2
SPEAKER_01
And how am I trying to control for my own safety?
2
SPEAKER_01
All these types of things.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s so hard to, I mean, grow up and have a perfect set of values that you re integrity with all the time.
2
SPEAKER_00
Especially if you ve got trauma, wounds, psychological breaks from childhood that you never addressed.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s hard to carry those wounds into your adult life and then say, okay, here are my values, I m gonna stick to them at all times.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m not gonna lean into temptation, I m not gonna sway away from my commitments, I m gonna honor my word.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s really challenging
2
SPEAKER_01
unless you do the healing work and you can t do it alone because the heart of things there are other reasons as hard as you can t see yourself so there there s nobody thinks they re a bad person like nobody actually thinks they re a bad person and but some people do really really bad things and justify it right they justify it by
2
SPEAKER_01
getting into a story of well they had it coming they did this to me that was wrong and who even knows that those are factual so like it s important to have some one qualified see from the outside thing pointed out and you to be open to it i have a hack for that that s
2
SPEAKER_01
because the other problem is healing is expensive.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right?
2
SPEAKER_01
Rehab is like expensive and health insurance usually doesn t cover it.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s really broken our whole mental health model.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it takes time.
2
SPEAKER_00
Healing doesn t happen overnight or a weekend or two weeks in rehab.
2
SPEAKER_00
It happens, you might have aha moments during those times, but then it takes months, if not years, to rewire your brain, to integrate the lessons, to process, to transform into a healthy version of yourself.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so here s a,
2
SPEAKER_01
Here s a great hack that I haven t heard other people talk about, but it s also affordable, powerful, and will change your life.
2
SPEAKER_01
That sounds like you can just put that out there.
2
SPEAKER_01
But here s a great hack, which is, and I did this and it really helped a lot, which is I ve got a group of men in my community who are in the same place.
2
SPEAKER_01
married, just had children, wherever they re at, and we decided to form sort of a therapy group.
2
SPEAKER_01
And if you get a bunch of guys together who are broken in their own ways to form a therapy group, it s not going to go well.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then we hired a therapist.
2
SPEAKER_01
To help all of you.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right, to help all of you.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so when you think about it, even going to individual therapy can be expensive for some people, but if it s five, six, ten of you,
2
SPEAKER_01
Hiring one therapist, you can all split that and afford it or pay as you want.
2
SPEAKER_01
We ve been meeting every Monday night for what s now, I want to say it s eight years now.
2
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
2
SPEAKER_01
Same group of guys.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so when I walk in and I say, hey, I m having this issue with my relationship or with work or something.
2
SPEAKER_01
I don t even have to finish the story.
2
SPEAKER_01
They re all like, Neil, that s you again.
2
SPEAKER_01
You re doing that same thing you did that time and that time.
2
SPEAKER_01
But the reason why it s powerful, going back to us not being able to see ourselves, is if I m sitting with a one-on-one therapist, or even just a friend, and they have a critique or something to point out, I can just disagree.
2
SPEAKER_01
But if it s eight guys, or eight of your people you respect, even if you don t respect them, and all eight of them have this point, you can be like,
2
SPEAKER_01
I don t agree, but they probably got something there.
2
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
2
SPEAKER_00
So you ve been doing that almost every week for like eight years.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I literally don t make any major decisions without discussing it in the group.
2
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s powerful.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m such a believer in either group therapy, one-on-one therapy,
2
SPEAKER_00
therapeutic experiences, week-long retreats to help you kind of reset, re-look at yourself, re-evaluate your values, where you re at in your life, and just try to get you on track to a better version of you.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I think it s really beautiful you re doing that.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I think in general, a lot of men don t have one friend that they can open up to and talk about their insecurities, their problems, their challenges.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it feels suffocating.
2
SPEAKER_00
when you don t feel like you have the ability to just share or express your feelings.
2
SPEAKER_00
So the fact that you re creating that commitment for yourself and other men is a beautiful thing.
2
SPEAKER_01
And they ll say things that they maybe can t share with their partners, or even with their best friends, because there s that cone of trust in there.
2
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s really, I love it.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I really recommend that.
2
SPEAKER_01
And also, there s something, our wounds happened in relationship, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
The relationship with our parents, they re relational.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so we can heal them in healthy, trusting relationships as well.
2
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
2
SPEAKER_00
So our wounds happen in relationships, and the only way to heal them is through relationships, it sounds like.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Interesting.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I was interesting, the other thing, I think a lot of people can be precious about what they do to help themselves.
2
SPEAKER_01
I ll give you one caveat, but I think anything you do with that as the intention of healing you is not going to hurt.
2
SPEAKER_01
I ll talk about a couple exceptions to that, obviously.
2
SPEAKER_01
But you know what I mean?
2
SPEAKER_01
If someone s going to say, if there s a therapy and it s, I don t know, surrounding you, anything, as long as A, like obviously there s, you know, the person running it isn t toxic, dangerous, abusive, and then B, there is a certain segment of, and just a warning, there s a certain segment of self-help improvement courses that are mind-blowing, phenomenal, amazing, however,
2
SPEAKER_01
they also try to get their members to recruit for them.
2
SPEAKER_01
So if you ever, some of you may be mad for me saying this, but if you re ever doing a course and part of the idea of improving yourself is going to get other people to join the course, get people to join the course if you want it, but if it s sort of a compulsion or part of the education, beware.
2
SPEAKER_00
Beware, for sure.
2
SPEAKER_00
What were the three main takeaways you got from sex rehab or intimacy rehab?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I think the big takeaway, and this actually goes back to your second question you asked.
2
SPEAKER_01
I love that we have so many.
2
SPEAKER_01
So they close by the second question, but how can you identify a cheater ahead of time?
2
SPEAKER_01
So the big takeaway, and I ll never
2
SPEAKER_01
The big takeaway was understanding the idea of enmeshment, which I didn t understand.
2
SPEAKER_01
What is enmeshment?
2
SPEAKER_01
Do you know what it is, or are you saying that s a thing?
2
SPEAKER_01
No, what is it?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so there s generally three types of parenting.
2
SPEAKER_01
There s healthy parenting, which is a parent takes care of a child s needs, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
Obviously, a parent can take care of all the child s needs, because children are so needy, and wherever they miss a need, or especially consistently miss a need, or one time, dramatically miss a need, that creates
3
SPEAKER_00
the wounds that we re talking about is trauma.
3
SPEAKER_00
Then we all know about abandonment, which is a parent s, we actually don t know as much about, I think people think abandonment is a parent physically not being there, but abandonment can also be a parent emotionally not being there, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
A parent can literally be present all the time and just emotionally checked out, and that creates the same kind of abandonment.
3
SPEAKER_00
Abandonment can also be, by the way, if you re
3
SPEAKER_00
really young that a parent passes away that has nothing to do with you but when you re that young and a little bit of you know it just feels like why is that parent not there right you know even sometimes
3
SPEAKER_00
having surgery, have an operation when you re young or something like that, your parents left you with someone who then cut into you and caused you pain.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, why weren t you protected?
3
SPEAKER_00
So there s a lot of things that are actually come from, that are out of the parents  control.
3
SPEAKER_00
It can come from love or protection that can still land these wounds.
3
SPEAKER_00
I think it s important.
3
SPEAKER_00
People often think it s blaming the parents, but it s just understanding ourselves.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, okay.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s the second thing you said?
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, so the second thing, so there is enmeshment, and enmeshment is,
3
SPEAKER_00
If abandonment s when a parent doesn t take care of the child s needs, enmeshment is when the child takes care of the parent s needs.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right?
3
SPEAKER_01
A lot of people can relate to that, I think.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
They had to grow up too fast.
3
SPEAKER_01
The parent was throwing their baggage on them, their problems on them, saying, oh, you re a lifesaver, you re so strong for me, you know, all these different things.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so, and why it s so hard to catch, I don t know why I just got the chills for some reason, because what s so interesting about it is, it doesn t feel like trauma, because abandonment is like disempowering.
3
SPEAKER_00
We feel like, why don t I matter?
3
SPEAKER_00
If that parent cared about me, they d be there, and they d not just like divorce, and they d never see me again, except for like twice a year, like, what s wrong with me?
3
SPEAKER_00
But, so it s disempowering, whereas enmeshment is falsely empowering.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, look at me, I m taking care of dad.
3
SPEAKER_00
Look at me, I m taking care of mom.
3
SPEAKER_00
Look at me, dad relies on me.
3
SPEAKER_00
Look at me, mom relies on me.
3
SPEAKER_00
Look at me, I m special to dad.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, look at me, like, you know, so you feel you re being sort of elevated, so it doesn t, it s harder to recognize this trauma, and that s why it s lesser known.
3
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
3
SPEAKER_00
And those people, by the way, this will probably hit like a chord for some people, people who are enmeshed, and they get into relationships, they like, tend to date people they can help or save.
3
SPEAKER_01
Really?
3
SPEAKER_00
Like projects.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then what happens is they need someone they want to help and save because that s how they get their worth and value.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because that s how they got it from mom or dad.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s my job.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like if I don t have a job then I m not lovable.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then what happens is.
3
SPEAKER_00
that after a while they can t really help, say, change that person, and they start to resent, like they did with their parent, and then push them apart and cheat, or act out, like they feel trapped.
3
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Wow, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
And they might act out in some other way.
3
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t have to be... Right, right, right.
3
SPEAKER_00
It can be some other addictive, impulsive behavior.
3
SPEAKER_01
Man, that s interesting.
3
SPEAKER_01
There s a big book out there, I can t remember the name of it, I think it s something like Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents or something like that.
3
SPEAKER_00
I love that.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t know if you ve seen that, but I see it out there, I gotta check it out.
3
SPEAKER_01
But it sounds like being raised by a parent who was emotionally immature, that you had to grow up and kind of be the parent to your parent.
3
SPEAKER_01
And the wounds and the traumas that that causes.
3
SPEAKER_01
Of those three, which one did you experience the most growing up?
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, for sure, enmeshment.
3
SPEAKER_00
Really?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that was the big takeaway in rehab when all of a sudden, I literally thought as a, I was a journalist and a writer, I thought I was the sane person who wrote about the extreme people who were unhealthy.
3
SPEAKER_00
And because for most of us, our childhood just seems normal because we have nothing to compare it to.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s just normal.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s how it s done, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
So once I was there,
3
SPEAKER_00
And as we re talking, I saw my challenge from the outside.
3
SPEAKER_00
I remember the therapist, uh, like pointed it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Once you point out the patterns, like it was like, uh, all of a sudden everything made sense.
3
SPEAKER_00
Really?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
What was that like the first time you wrote a C little Neil in front of you?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I think that, I think that, I love that, you know, because you ve done the work, we re talking about Little Me, we have, it s true that just to speak to what you said, we have that inner child that feels that when it recognizes someone familiar, it takes over and gets in the driver s seat and all of a sudden we re not in control of our own lives.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so, yeah, I remember the first time.
3
SPEAKER_00
I really didn t expect it.
3
SPEAKER_00
I was super cynical and rebellious.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then when she pointed out the patterns and said, well, you know why you ve never been in a relationship?
3
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, no, why?
3
SPEAKER_00
And she goes, well, because your mom wants to be in a relationship with you.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then as soon as she said it, wow, logically made no sense.
3
SPEAKER_00
My whole body felt the truth of it.
3
SPEAKER_00
I felt it.
3
SPEAKER_00
I ll never, I ll literally never, that moment, exact moment changed my life.
3
SPEAKER_01
Wow, so you had the aha in that moment.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
But healing didn t happen right away.
3
SPEAKER_01
It probably took a little time to kind of process and integrate it, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
I think the hardest part of healing is having the awareness and still doing the same stupid shit.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right, right, right.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because man, awareness is just the first step, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Once you have awareness, now you have to actually do the work together.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like I have awareness, I have this goal, but the awareness doesn t get to the goal.
3
SPEAKER_01
Why do you, you mentioned, you know, you wanted to kind of write about, interview, and do journalism on kind of like the weirdest or most extreme types of people.
3
SPEAKER_01
Why do you think you were fascinated with the most extreme personalities in the world for the last 20 years?
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, you guess from what you just, from what we just talked about.
3
SPEAKER_00
Just put the puzzle pieces together.
3
SPEAKER_00
I think, see if you just give it a quick shot.
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, I mean, I think you, I don t know, it sounds like you were trying to learn about
3
SPEAKER_01
Extreme personalities because you didn t feel emotionally safe or you didn t feel like you had safety growing up in some way from the relationship you have with your mother, it sounds like.
3
SPEAKER_01
And you were trying to make your life more normal by interviewing or learning about extreme people and their personalities.
3
SPEAKER_00
And who is the extreme person I grew up with?
3
SPEAKER_01
Your mom?
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
So thinking, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
And you were trying to make her feel normal by looking at, well, there s got to be more extreme people out there.
3
SPEAKER_01
So my mom can t be that extreme.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
And by the way, at that time, and I think that there s a lot of accuracy to that, I think I didn t see her as extreme because I didn t know any other mom.
3
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I think what it is is enmeshment makes you great.
3
SPEAKER_00
Were you enmeshed at all with mom at all?
3
SPEAKER_01
I felt, I was the youngest of four, and my brother went to prison when I was eight.
3
SPEAKER_01
So from eight to 12, it was just kind of like scarcity survival feelings, you know, for a number of years, because we would go to the prison to visit him on the weekends for visiting hours.
3
SPEAKER_01
It was just a lot of trauma and sadness and shame.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so I didn t feel like I had the attention towards me because it was my older siblings, my brother.
3
SPEAKER_01
It was just us trying to get through this time of sadness.
3
SPEAKER_00
So by the way, it s interesting you said that because one of the signs of enmeshment is not like, oh, I m taking care of mom sometimes or dad.
3
SPEAKER_00
Sometimes it s like if mom or dad are sad or depressed.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that can be.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, they didn t have a loving relationship either.
3
SPEAKER_01
So there was just no love between them.
3
SPEAKER_01
So it was always just kind of insecurity, fear.
3
SPEAKER_01
When are they going to meet each other?
3
SPEAKER_00
It was just like uncertainty constantly.
3
SPEAKER_00
One subtle form of emotion was kind of mom or dad.
3
SPEAKER_00
They feel bad.
3
SPEAKER_00
You don t want to bother them with your needs.
3
SPEAKER_00
So if you feel sorry for a parent, that s usually a good emotion.
3
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
3
SPEAKER_00
Did you feel sorry for one of your parents or no?
3
SPEAKER_00
I m curious.
3
SPEAKER_01
Man, I was just like, I felt sorry for myself.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s a smart, wise child.
3
SPEAKER_01
I felt like, you know, I m stupid.
3
SPEAKER_01
I have no friends.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m not enough.
3
SPEAKER_01
I felt just like very insecure, you know.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I didn t feel the love.
3
SPEAKER_01
I know they loved me and they showed moments of love, but it was hard for me to feel it.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think, yeah, it sounds like abandonment stuff.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I was dealt with sexual abuse, which you know about that, when I was five from a man that I didn t know.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I just had like a lot of uncertainty and like,
3
SPEAKER_01
Like when s, what s gonna happen next?
3
SPEAKER_01
There d be screaming in the house, there d be fighting, there d be a disconnection feeling between my parents.
3
SPEAKER_01
So just didn t know what s gonna happen all the time.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s like hyper-vigilance.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes, yes.
3
SPEAKER_01
So it just, yeah, it fractured my personality.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it took years to heal.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
So it drove me, probably just like you, it drove me to be like, how do I be the best I can be?
3
SPEAKER_01
And how do I win?
3
SPEAKER_01
And how do I get girls to like me?
3
SPEAKER_01
And how do I make money?
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s like, how do we become significant in society?
3
SPEAKER_00
But it also left me feeling- And like wanted and accepted and seen.
3
SPEAKER_01
100%, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
And loved.
3
SPEAKER_00
And safe.
3
SPEAKER_01
And loved and safe.
3
SPEAKER_01
But no amount of success, money, girls, or fame made me feel more loved.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, of course.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so about 11 years ago, I started going through my own transformation, healing journey.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know events therapies workshops meditation retreats to reclaim the inner child and create safety within Myself and that you know it s been a 10 11 year journey of different waves of emotions and healing and then regression
4
SPEAKER_01
and healing and ups and downs and I finally feel like I m in a extremely emotionally safe place with myself.
4
SPEAKER_01
I feel like the adult me is on a cautious, healthy journey to take care of the little me inside of me.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it s a constant relationship with the two.
4
SPEAKER_01
To be my word to my younger self,
4
SPEAKER_01
to acknowledge my younger self for for carrying me all the way to this moment right for loving and accepting myself but also it s like just really doing the work like you talked about from you know i guess sex rehab it s like being committed to the daily practices and work where i can align with my vision and values for myself
4
SPEAKER_01
and the effort that I m putting in consistently.
4
SPEAKER_01
Not trying to be perfect, but being consistent.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that journey gives me peace.
4
SPEAKER_01
The effort gives me harmony.
4
SPEAKER_01
It makes me feel grateful and abundant, as opposed to beating myself up, or talking negative to myself, or saying, oh, you could be doing better.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s like, yes, I want to improve.
4
SPEAKER_01
but not from a negative place.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that s been a beautiful journey.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and I love that you said, like, it really is.
4
SPEAKER_00
I think a lot of people like this pretend like it s, and again, even some stuff I said may appear that way, but it really is a back and forth thing.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like you re, I mean, I think of healing like the half-life of radiation, like you re cutting it half and half and half, but it never goes away entirely, you know?
4
SPEAKER_00
And I love, I want to say, this is,
4
SPEAKER_00
I m going to elaborate this, and it goes back to what we were saying in the green room back there before, is I get excited when I backslide.
4
SPEAKER_00
Really?
4
SPEAKER_00
Why?
4
SPEAKER_00
Meaning that I m like, there s something to learn here.
4
SPEAKER_00
There s something I ve got to work on here. 
4
SPEAKER_00
So it s easy to beat yourself up when you backslide and go into reactive mode, shutting down.
4
SPEAKER_00
Ego.
4
SPEAKER_00
Ego, whatever it is.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it s easy just to be like, all this healing is for nothing.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m just right back here where I was before.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s really about how quickly you recover from it.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s not about never backsliding or never getting in a reactive place again.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s about how quickly when it happens can you go back and recover to your healthy, adult, functional self.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then I ll go back and look at it and say, OK, what was going on?
4
SPEAKER_00
I ll try to look at it this way.
4
SPEAKER_00
What was the stimulus that I received?
4
SPEAKER_00
Then what was the behavior?
4
SPEAKER_00
then this is the key question.
4
SPEAKER_00
What was the belief that was underneath it that drove the behavior?
4
SPEAKER_00
Because literally so often, like I grew up with a very critical mom, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
So it explains a lot of self-esteem issues.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so if I get, you know,
4
SPEAKER_00
Ingrid was my ex-wife and best friend.
4
SPEAKER_00
If she criticizes me, I might take it more personally.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I might be like, you re always criticizing me or something.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m like, wait, maybe it s a fair, maybe what she said was actually just factually accurate.
4
SPEAKER_00
But in my brain, I m like, well, what s my belief?
4
SPEAKER_00
Where does that come from?
4
SPEAKER_00
And as soon as you can make a nod about the other person,
4
SPEAKER_00
then you have a shot of healing.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then the other key thing I ll think about afterward is how did I feel after it, afterward.
4
SPEAKER_00
So often when someone is in a reactive state, and some people act in, a lot of people act in, some people act out, some act in, how did I feel afterward, which is usually shame.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so I ll try to look at those pieces and figure out, is there a lie I m telling myself that I need to intervene on?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like you were saying about your childhood, I don t matter, I don t fit in, all those things you were saying were all false.
4
SPEAKER_00
When you say, as an adult, they re not true.
4
SPEAKER_00
They re just lies.
4
SPEAKER_00
And you have to intervene.
4
SPEAKER_00
When you talk about being consistent, there was a great word you said.
4
SPEAKER_00
You have to intervene on the lies.
4
SPEAKER_00
Right away, as soon as they happen, you have to tell yourself the truth.
4
SPEAKER_00
Not an affirmation, because I think some affirmations are another form of lies.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s like a spiritual bypass.
4
SPEAKER_00
Right, right, right.
4
SPEAKER_00
But if you say, as an example, here s a small intervention I ll do.
4
SPEAKER_00
When I first moved to LA and started driving, my friends would call me Kirby because I always hit the curbs when I was trying to park.
4
SPEAKER_00
So maybe I m driving and I hit the curb.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m like, I m such an idiot.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s not true.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s not true.
4
SPEAKER_00
But the truth is, I m still learning to drive and I made a mistake.
4
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
4
SPEAKER_00
So you don t have to have an idiot instead of say, no, I m a super powerful human being, which is great too.
4
SPEAKER_00
But it s nice to just actually correct it with the actual fact.
4
SPEAKER_01
I don t know if we answered this yet, but I wanted to ask you about if you re entering a relationship, what are the signs that you might be entering a relationship with a potential cheater?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so I think a few signs are obviously if they cheated before and haven t healed, but I think it goes back to the parenting.
4
SPEAKER_00
So it goes back to the enmeshment.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like I tend to find, as an example, I was somewhere and the makeup artist was working and she was talking about how she s never had a relationship, cheats all the time.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m like, what s your relationship with your dad like?
4
SPEAKER_00
She rolls up her sleeve and it says like daddy s girl on her sleeve.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, okay, because nobody s like your dad.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so I think, and I don t want to say like never date someone who s enmeshed, but
4
SPEAKER_00
But you can actually see that if someone is deeply enmeshed by a parent, and sometimes people are still taking care of the needs of their parents, and it s different if your parent is ill or something like that, but if your parent s just calling you every day for everything.
4
SPEAKER_00
Just a victim.
4
SPEAKER_00
Right, right.
4
SPEAKER_00
And just relying on you just for their own mental, for their own, just to get through each day.
4
SPEAKER_00
Uh, often what will happen in a relationship after some period of time is they ll start to, they ll start to feel smothered by their relationship and then act out for their freedom.
4
SPEAKER_00
And again, it doesn t have to be sex or cheating, but it doesn t mean, oh, they re going to cheat a hundred percent, but you can say, oh, this is something and just see if they re aware of it and working on it.
4
SPEAKER_01
But they numb themselves, they do drugs or alcohol to numb the feelings of being stuck or trapped.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then they neglect the relationship, they re not present, they re not intimate and vulnerable, whatever it might be.
4
SPEAKER_01
They distance themselves some way.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, they have to distance themselves in some way because they re not suffocated.
4
SPEAKER_00
And literally, I remember when I was
4
SPEAKER_00
That just being with one person and dealing with their neediness, and they usually choose someone needy as a partner, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Can be a big deal.
4
SPEAKER_00
I think it s interesting.
4
SPEAKER_00
We ve talked about cheating, and I just think
4
SPEAKER_00
when it comes to cheating it s it s it s someone being it s afraid to be honest in a sense of that like i realized afterward is you re it s also you re making your partner you people who cheat often think my partner is not letting me do this they don t allow me to do this so i m gonna
4
SPEAKER_00
I m going to take care of myself because they re not letting me.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like they get in this victim child position with their partner.
4
SPEAKER_00
But the truth is you can literally do anything you want and your partner can respond to it how they want to.
4
SPEAKER_00
So you can literally just say like, Hey, you know, I met someone today and I would love to go sleep with them.
4
SPEAKER_00
And you can say, cool, you can do that.
4
SPEAKER_00
I don t think I can still be in a relationship afterward, but go enjoy yourself.
4
SPEAKER_00
And thanks for letting me know who you are.
4
SPEAKER_00
Right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like I think I actually think we d be healthy if, if, uh,
4
SPEAKER_00
And then would you still cheat with that person given that choice?
4
SPEAKER_00
And then people think, well, I don t want to hurt the person, so I m not going to tell them what I m doing.
4
SPEAKER_00
But actually, when people lie,
4
SPEAKER_00
And I m jumping to a thought, but I think it s important, which is when people lie, they think they re protecting the person or something, but they re not.
4
SPEAKER_00
They protect themselves from feeling uncomfortable emotions from that person.
4
SPEAKER_00
They re like, I can t deal with your emotions, so I m not going to tell you what I m doing in case you have an emotion that I m uncomfortable with.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think they re probably also hurting themselves the most because they re out of integrity with their commitments or their word to their partner.
4
SPEAKER_01
Totally.
4
SPEAKER_00
And you re not even in a relationship.
4
SPEAKER_00
You re lying in bed next to your partner in this secret world that they don t know about.
4
SPEAKER_00
And that s also an important thing to say is, what is cheating?
4
SPEAKER_00
Cheating to me is break acting outside the rules that you have established for your relationship Yeah, meaning that if someone s like you can t watch pornography guess what you watch porn you didn t sleep with somebody that would fair But that s you broke the rules and that s cheating.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you can t take a you know, change phone or whatever first of all
4
SPEAKER_00
rule should be stated.
4
SPEAKER_00
A lot of times people start dating and they have these assumptions that you haven t agreed on the rules.
4
SPEAKER_00
And secondly, you don t have to agree to anything you don t want to.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s a consensual thing.
4
SPEAKER_00
No one s making you not do that.
4
SPEAKER_00
You re choosing to do it because it s important to your partner.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think that s beautiful.
5
SPEAKER_01
with my fiance Martha and I, when we got into a committed relationship, we were dating for a few months, but then we entered a committed in a relationship.
5
SPEAKER_01
One of the things I requested was to start the relationship in therapy.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I said, I ve always- That s a year to keep her right there.
5
SPEAKER_01
Because I d had five, I d had five or six kind of, you know, year to three year relationships for the last 20 years, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
Since I was in high school or college or whatever.
5
SPEAKER_01
And all of them ended in therapy.
5
SPEAKER_01
And they didn t end typically well.
5
SPEAKER_01
I tried to end them well.
5
SPEAKER_01
I tried to make them work.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I was the one who was always requesting to do therapy.
5
SPEAKER_01
This was the crazy thing.
5
SPEAKER_01
I don t know if this is something wrong with me or me choosing a certain type of personality.
5
SPEAKER_01
I would always say, let s do therapy.
5
SPEAKER_01
Let s try to find a way to make this work.
5
SPEAKER_01
And the people that I was choosing to be in relationships with never wanted therapy.
5
SPEAKER_01
They resisted it.
5
SPEAKER_01
I almost had to beg them for six months to a year to be like,
5
SPEAKER_01
Something s not working.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m trying to improve.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m trying to do what you want me to do.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s still not working.
5
SPEAKER_01
Can we go to therapy? 
5
SPEAKER_01
And they didn t want to go.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so we would finally go and then it would end, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
And it wouldn t end well.
5
SPEAKER_01
They weren t happy that we went to therapy.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I never understood.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I was like, I m not entering another relationship.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m happy to be single for as long as it takes.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I m not entering another relationship unless the person is willing to work on themselves and create agreements in therapy together in a conscious way from the start.
5
SPEAKER_01
And Martha right away was like, yeah, man, let s do this.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and for the right person, that s like such a value add.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s amazing.
5
SPEAKER_01
So when you talk about rules, we created agreements early on.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like every time we did a session, we re like,
5
SPEAKER_01
Okay, we re experiencing a little discomfort here or friction here.
5
SPEAKER_01
Can we create an agreement around this?
5
SPEAKER_01
So that we both know where we re at and just make sure we re going in the right direction.
5
SPEAKER_01
Otherwise, let s get out of this thing early.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s like, why wait two years and just have all these chemicals connecting and not talk about our values, our vision, our lifestyle, kind of our agreements and make sure we re aligned.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so, it has created a lot more peace and harmony in the relationship by creating that.
5
SPEAKER_01
And it doesn t mean everything s perfect every moment, but it s creating more safety.
5
SPEAKER_00
One thing I love, I have so many thoughts about what you said, but one thing I love, someone said, and I haven t been able to do it, I think it s a way better way to, they said we have intentions, not rules.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yes, our agreements, yeah, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
What s one of your agreements?
5
SPEAKER_01
One of the agreements was like, I don t know, within the first year, and it s like little things could turn into big things, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, it s like a little thing where like, maybe it s not that big of a deal, but it can be if it happens every other month.
5
SPEAKER_01
For sure.
5
SPEAKER_01
One of them was like, within the first year, you know, she would want to talk about something challenging at night.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like we get into bed, I m ready to fall asleep, I m exhausted.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s 10, 11, 12 o clock, whatever, I m like winding down, mentally, emotionally, physically, and then she wants to start a conversation.
5
SPEAKER_01
And it s not like a light conversation, it s like something that takes time and energy and presence from me.
5
SPEAKER_01
And a couple times this happened where it s like, all right, we re up until 3 a.m., 4 a.m.
5
SPEAKER_01
talking about these things, and I want to be there to support her.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s not that I don t want to talk about these things, but I m like, listen, this doesn t work for me anymore.
5
SPEAKER_01
Having these conversations after 10 p.m.
5
SPEAKER_01
do not work because I want to show up fully for you, and I can t show up fully to be present.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I have to wake myself back up.
5
SPEAKER_01
I have to turn the lights on.
5
SPEAKER_01
I have to sit up at like 1 a.m.
5
SPEAKER_01
and try to look you in the eyes, open body position, be pleasant with you, open my heart when I m falling asleep.
5
SPEAKER_01
So the agreement was no challenging conversations when we re in bed.
5
SPEAKER_01
We talk about what we re grateful for, we talk about lighter things so that we can go to sleep.
5
SPEAKER_01
And we can talk about them tomorrow and everything s gonna be okay.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so we created that agreement in therapy together and it has created so much peace.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s for both of us.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I think it s for the understanding too.
5
SPEAKER_00
People have different processing styles.
5
SPEAKER_00
She might want to process everything right away in the moment and maybe accepting that you waiting a little bit to your present is going to help her process it better versus getting
5
SPEAKER_00
you know, rewound in by you not being present.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then we re both exhausted the next day and more resentful the next day because we didn t solve this thing.
5
SPEAKER_01
Right.
5
SPEAKER_01
So it s like, let s just talk about it over dinner.
5
SPEAKER_01
Let s talk about it when we re both awake, when we re both like still of energy.
5
SPEAKER_01
And if not, then we ll wait till the next day.
5
SPEAKER_01
We ll talk about it then.
5
SPEAKER_00
There s one little tool I love that I use, I call them check-ins.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I realized that sometimes in a relationship you can start, stop, you can sort of just grow distant without meaning to by not talking about certain things, especially things that might be uncomfortable with each other.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I started doing this every other night.
5
SPEAKER_00
It was in bed, but earlier.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I kind of recommend this.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s great for relationships.
5
SPEAKER_00
Here s how it works.
5
SPEAKER_00
One person shares everything uninterrupted of what s going on for them.
5
SPEAKER_00
Then afterward, the other person can share everything of what s going on for them, and the deal is you just listen, don t interrupt the other person, and you also don t defend yourself, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
If they re like, you know, I was frustrated, and sometimes when you hear everything versus reacting right away, you ll see that it s not about you.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like one big key, when like, this is like the hardest thing for people to do, but the most important thing to do, whether work or relationships,
5
SPEAKER_00
It s so hard, it s just not to defend yourself.
5
SPEAKER_00
Very hard.
5
SPEAKER_00
As soon as you defend yourself, someone shuts down from telling you their truth.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s very challenging.
5
SPEAKER_00
And even if they re wrong, if I m like, listen, Lewis, when I walked in here, you were so disrespectful to me.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like, I walked in, and you were busy doing other stuff, and I haven t seen you in so long.
5
SPEAKER_00
Let s just say it, and we know that s not what happened.
5
SPEAKER_00
You were nothing but awesome when I walked in.
5
SPEAKER_00
You can you can say like so what was your experience of that?
5
SPEAKER_00
Like what was it like for you?
5
SPEAKER_00
Did that hurt was that hard for you without ever?
5
SPEAKER_00
Validating that reality as being yours and so you can just let them say everything about it Well how they felt and once they feel
5
SPEAKER_00
emptied and complete.
5
SPEAKER_00
You can say, I d love to share what my experience of you was when you walked in and I just want to share my reality with you.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so you could actually, it s like, it s the most beautiful thing to really hear someone out when you don t disagree and you never need to agree with them or say it s right.
5
SPEAKER_00
But what is right is that those were their thoughts and feelings.
5
SPEAKER_00
Those are facts that they were their thoughts, their feelings, whether a camera would have seen those same actions or not.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, but it s how they were feeling.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s their interpretation.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
I love, I love relationships.
5
SPEAKER_00
I literally think some people think they re healthy till they get into a relationship.
5
SPEAKER_00
Right.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, so I think like once you re in a relationship, going to therapy, doing that work is like, it s two people growing together is beautiful.
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, the thing I, I think I, you know, I don t, I would, I recommend it to everyone, but I know not everyone s going to do this because it s like completely opposite of what people would want to do is start a relationship in therapy.
5
SPEAKER_01
But I ve, for me, my highest currency is inner peace and harmony.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
And to have and be harmonious and to create peace inside of me means having uncomfortable conversations consistently.
5
SPEAKER_01
It doesn t mean like never having challenging conversations.
5
SPEAKER_01
It means being willing to go there and having the courage to communicate and listen when you, ah, that doesn t feel that good.
5
SPEAKER_01
But communicating it gives me more peace.
5
SPEAKER_01
And the consistency of it is supportive for us.
5
SPEAKER_01
But I respect her so much more because I know she wants to continue to evolve and grow.
5
SPEAKER_01
It doesn t mean we have to do it every week or every month even.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s just we re committed to each individually growing.
5
SPEAKER_01
And for me, I value that a lot.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and it creates more peace in the relationship.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s great.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, doing it ahead of time before there are problems.
5
SPEAKER_00
But as you said, like with all your relationships, most people, the time you re in therapy, dealing with a problem, it s almost- It s challenging.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s challenging.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s hard to make it work, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
By the way, I love what you said.
5
SPEAKER_00
It was interesting.
5
SPEAKER_00
I just had a thought on what you were saying earlier, which is I dated these people who won t go to therapy.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then you said later, because I wasn t doing what they wanted me to do.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I think the key of why, tell me if this fits.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then I would stay with them and try to change myself to make them happy.
5
SPEAKER_00
Because I think the idea was like, for them, tell me if this is right, I don t know.
5
SPEAKER_00
But for them, control was safety.
5
SPEAKER_01
Probably, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
They wanted to control me.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so if they can t bring a therapist in the mix who might ruin their control over you.
5
100%.
5
SPEAKER_00
I think that s what it was.
5
100%.
5
SPEAKER_01
Because when we do the, it s funny, because when we go to therapy, the therapist, and I always say, you choose the therapist.
5
SPEAKER_01
Right.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like, you choose who you like.
5
SPEAKER_01
I will go anyone.
5
SPEAKER_01
Right.
5
SPEAKER_01
Because I m willing to open up and reveal and talk about anything.
5
SPEAKER_01
And the therapist would be like, OK, yeah, you shouldn t be doing that to the previous partners I had.
5
SPEAKER_01
This is a better way of going about it.
5
SPEAKER_01
And here s how you can look at it.
5
SPEAKER_01
But also, they would criticize me for what I needed to work on.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, cool, tell me more.
5
SPEAKER_00
What do I need to do?
5
SPEAKER_01
but the other people didn t want to look themselves in the mirror based on what the therapists were sharing.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I don t blame these women.
5
SPEAKER_01
I accept them for who they are, and I just chose, out of a wound, these types of personalities.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so again, it s not me blaming anyone and saying, oh, they didn t want to go to therapy or whatever.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s me looking within and having to say, why?
6
SPEAKER_00
Why did I repeat this pattern consistently?
6
SPEAKER_00
And why did I stay in this pattern?
6
SPEAKER_00
Why was I unwilling to heal from certain traumas or why did it take me so long?
6
SPEAKER_00
I don t think you re being blamey or victimy about it.
6
SPEAKER_00
No, no, no.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s just looking myself in the mirror and saying, okay, I chose, in a lot of my relationships I chose out of
6
SPEAKER_01
You know chemical reactions over actually communicating values vision and lifestyle or maybe being lost in your family You re like and basically just someone tell what to do and how to be yeah, maybe you re I m just throwing this out there Yeah, look at your whole your whole like life is like let me be around
6
SPEAKER_01
of parental figures who can tell me, who can be healthy parents and tell me good things, and some of you are choosing someone to give you some of the structure.
6
SPEAKER_00
Even if it s unsafe, it s still like someone trying to control or something.
6
SPEAKER_00
So, anyway.
6
SPEAKER_01
And also, yeah, and then like, how can I be better?
6
SPEAKER_01
How can I be better for you?
6
SPEAKER_01
How can I, you know, and then eventually, like, you realize that it s actually not about you.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s not, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
I think it s so interesting.
6
SPEAKER_01
So many, there are a lot of partners who,
6
SPEAKER_01
Just like you were saying about self-esteem, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
I m trying to get it from work, career, achievements.
6
SPEAKER_01
Some people are like that so you try to get your self-esteem.
6
SPEAKER_01
Some people try to get their self-esteem from the outside world.
6
SPEAKER_01
just as some people try to get their safety from their relationship partner.
6
SPEAKER_01
And then they re like, if you didn t, then the relationship partner starts like, okay, I have to do this, this and that to make you feel safe.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I didn t call you that thing.
6
SPEAKER_01
You re not safe.
6
SPEAKER_01
And all of a sudden, like, it just, that s the most, it can be a real toxic dynamic.
6
SPEAKER_01
A hundred percent.
6
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And then you realize, eventually you realize, and it breaks up when the other partner realizes, oh, nothing I ll do will make you feel safe.
6
SPEAKER_00
Nothing.
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SPEAKER_00
Nothing.
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No matter how much I change who I am and change my behaviors, they re never gonna feel like it s enough.
6
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And it s exhausting.
6
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It sucks the life out of you.
6
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And I ve repeated that so many times.
6
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It s like, why did it take me so long to learn this lesson?
6
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But I think the lesson s gonna keep coming to you until you re willing to make a change and heal.
6
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And the ironic thing is that s often when people cheat, I feel like the life s getting sucked out of me and I just wanna be somewhere where I just feel free and I can connect with myself again.
6
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I really think that relationships are so hard and our culture does not raise us to have that right.
6
SPEAKER_01
We just see movies and TV shows and Instagram and all these things where we re just told how it s supposed to be and we develop this fantasy and we don t get any tools.
6
SPEAKER_01
I know.
6
SPEAKER_00
Well, I m glad you re teaching these tools right now.
6
SPEAKER_00
I want to pivot a little bit, because this is fascinating.
6
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It s a good subject.
6
SPEAKER_00
But I want to use part of the subject we ve talked about into this next topic, which is
6
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I think one of the most interesting things about you, I don t think anyone in the world has the experiences you have in terms of interviewing, diving into the world of, and researching the world s most extreme personalities from at the top of their game, I guess, from musicians, porn stars, FBI spies, Russian spies, and everywhere in between.
6
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You ve dived into these worlds of unique personalities that have learned a unique set of skills around charisma, persuasion, manipulation, lies, creating fake personalities, and literally transforming themselves to get anything they want from anyone else.
6
SPEAKER_00
And you have a new podcast that I m so excited about.
6
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It s called To Die For, where you essentially immerse yourself in a number of conversations with a female Russian spy who learned how to make men fall in love with them so that they could get information and ultimately hurt them in big ways.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I m curious, what have you learned from all these different personalities about manipulation, persuasion, influence that they used for evil that we could actually start to use for good?
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
Well, let s think about that for a second.
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Because, first of all,
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I would guess that a spy thinks they re using it for good.
6
SPEAKER_01
So if you take the case of the woman in the podcast, the Russian spy, she was kind of brainwashed to believe you re serving your country.
6
SPEAKER_01
You know, these are bad people.
6
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And by doing this, you re using this for good.
6
SPEAKER_00
So I don t think- You re doing a service for your country.
6
SPEAKER_01
Right, so it wasn t until later when she gets out of the country and sees all the horrible things and is sort of, they do, that she realizes that she s willing to talk about it now because it wasn t good.
6
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She was brainwashed.
6
SPEAKER_00
And what was some of the things that this woman that you have on this podcast series did?
6
SPEAKER_00
I m trying to think if I m allowed to say them yet.
6
SPEAKER_01
Let s see.
6
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
6
SPEAKER_01
But let s just say she was trained to seduce men for their secrets or sometimes their lives, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
Depending on what they need.
6
SPEAKER_01
And literally, again, according to her, was in this training thing where she was taught this great... So she was trained on how to manipulate men.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
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And one of the keys is this thing I was reading about, actually.
6
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A lot of men are caught in these love traps or honey traps.
6
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The love trap is longer, the love trap.
6
SPEAKER_01
Some people are literally, some people, and this is like historical fact, they were like, it s such a crazy world.
6
SPEAKER_01
So the men are often called Romeos.
6
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And the women are called swallows.
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SPEAKER_01
Here it s called red sparrow, but the real word is swallow in Russian, but swallow has different connotations.
6
SPEAKER_01
So they probably changed to spas, to sparrow.
6
SPEAKER_01
But there were women who were, often if they worked, this one woman who worked in an embassy, or several people who, usually they ll get someone lower level.
6
SPEAKER_01
who was a secretary in this Romeo from Russia or East Germany, I think at least at that time, seduced her.
6
SPEAKER_01
And she literally was in a relationship with him.
6
SPEAKER_01
And he was saying he was working on a world peace project.
6
SPEAKER_01
Never knew he was a spy, and she was giving him data to help him find world peace.
6
SPEAKER_01
To help him create his world peace project, and literally he s just feeding it all back to the Russians.
6
SPEAKER_01
Then as soon as the Soviet Union collapsed, well guess what?
6
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That guy, that relationship ended.
6
SPEAKER_01
And later she s being looked at as a traitor.
6
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
6
SPEAKER_00
So men were doing this, but then there s women doing this as well.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and there s all kinds of different forms of it.
6
SPEAKER_00
What was the training like for this woman that you, you know, interviewed in this podcast?
6
SPEAKER_00
What, like, what is training camp on seduction and manipulation and getting men to fall in love with you?
6
SPEAKER_00
What does that look like?
6
SPEAKER_01
The training, what s interesting is that key part of the training is that
6
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He has to approach you.
6
SPEAKER_01
So the man has to approach you.
6
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So you have to get the man to approach you.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I was reading other other sort of cases.
6
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There s one.
6
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And again.
6
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Men can be kind of not so sparse when it comes to, she has a great line.
6
SPEAKER_01
She s like, yeah, like men s biggest weakness is sex.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so there s one case in the podcast about this Israeli nuclear technician who defects to spill the secrets of the program.
6
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And then he s in London.
6
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talking reporters, he s at a newsstand getting a cigarette or whatever, he meets, there s a woman that he s attracted to.
6
SPEAKER_01
He starts talking to her, so he thinks he picked her up, you know?
6
SPEAKER_01
And so the first thing they ll teach you is how to sort of get someone, it started for her, she says, that she was, it started with posture, clothing, makeup.
6
SPEAKER_01
She was actually from, she s from Kazakhstan, so she, yeah, I think Kazakhstan, she really strict,
6
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upbringing and never even, you know, wore makeup.
6
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
6
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Never had a boyfriend, never even kissed anyone before.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so really a lot of it was, well, it sounds sexy so much as is really, you know, abusive, abusive, abusive power.
6
SPEAKER_01
And like, it was a horrible, you know, it s really is.
6
SPEAKER_01
That was,
6
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It s dramatic for everybody, this kind of line of work.
6
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
6
SPEAKER_00
So they put her through a training camp on essentially how to get men to approach her without her saying anything to them.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, everything.
6
SPEAKER_01
Literally, they teach her about poisons.
6
SPEAKER_00
Poisons?
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
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How to poison someone?
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, like for example...
6
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And I m an expert on this but but coca-cola like sodas like coke is a good thing because has such a strong taste that it covers up Water is tough You know, so rum and coke is a great concealment.
6
SPEAKER_01
So then the other thing is Also, they taught her how to like to be sexual stuff.
6
SPEAKER_01
So if you re the best He s ever been with you start to want more.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I still want more.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s like a drug.
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SPEAKER_01
I
6
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That s literally what she says in the podcast.
6
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She says it s like a drug.
6
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You give it a little bit, and you take it away.
6
SPEAKER_01
You give a little bit,
7
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you take it away till they re addicted to it.
7
SPEAKER_00
And then they reveal all their secrets.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and there s two ways.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you can do it sort of overtly, covertly, you know, different ways to get the information.
7
SPEAKER_01
Sometimes it s not about revealing their secrets.
7
SPEAKER_01
Sometimes it s about trapping them, in other words.
7
SPEAKER_01
Like, if they are married or acting outside of... Sometimes it s about trap them.
7
SPEAKER_01
Blackmail or... Yeah.
7
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It s so sophisticated.
7
SPEAKER_01
And I don t know if this is just your listeners, but I m just... It s so sophisticated that let s just say,
7
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You re, and it s very funny, it s really widespread.
7
SPEAKER_01
The transcriber of my podcast is transcribing it.
7
SPEAKER_01
At the interview, she gets the first interview, she s like, oh, you know, I used to work on like a secret program and they warned everybody about these women that if you re somewhere traveling and you meet someone who s out of your league, they probably are.
7
SPEAKER_01
Right, right, right, right, yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
So this is how it kind of, once they got somebody on the hook, so let s just say they,
7
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have some blackmail material, they call it kompromat, blackmail material.
7
SPEAKER_01
They would just say, hey, we just need you to do this for us.
7
SPEAKER_01
And it might be a real harmless thing.
7
SPEAKER_01
We just need you to get this piece of information.
7
SPEAKER_01
Like, this doesn t hurt this security mic safety.
7
SPEAKER_01
It gets rid of this thing.
7
SPEAKER_01
You give them the harmless piece of information.
7
SPEAKER_01
Then they really have you, because now it s one thing to be caught.
7
SPEAKER_01
having sex with someone, now you ve actually betrayed your country with this tiny piece of information, and now we really have you.
7
SPEAKER_01
Oh man.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
This is crazy.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s crazy.
7
SPEAKER_00
There s like a world out there that I never knew about.
7
SPEAKER_00
How do men know if women are truly falling for them or are trying to manipulate them?
7
SPEAKER_00
Now we ve gone from cheating to, are they Russian agents?
7
SPEAKER_00
Or maybe they re just more narcissistic.
7
SPEAKER_00
They want to get money from them or they want to get fancy dates from them.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s like wanting them for their personality and who they are versus wanting them because of what they have.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so that s a great, great, great question.
7
SPEAKER_01
And let s match that with there are some men and some people who are just so insecure, they think their only value is giving something.
7
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If I m not paying, buying, giving, I m not lovable as I am.
7
SPEAKER_01
So the first step is, do you feel that you re lovable as you are?
7
SPEAKER_01
And if you don t, you re really ripe for manipulation.
7
SPEAKER_01
And the second thing is,
7
SPEAKER_01
If you don t comply with the request, are they still gonna love you or care about you?
7
SPEAKER_00
So how do you know if they re actually manipulating you or if they care about you?
7
SPEAKER_00
Based on how they respond to your actions or?
7
SPEAKER_01
Let s see, the question is how do you know if someone s just kind of using you or with you?
7
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I think the things are,
7
SPEAKER_01
I mean, first of all, they re always telltale signs.
7
SPEAKER_01
And by the way, I would also say the other ones, I know someone s using you just for sex also.
7
SPEAKER_01
And I think the sex money dynamic across the board is, are they willing to spend time with you without any of that?
7
SPEAKER_00
Right?
7
SPEAKER_01
Like, like there s so many, it s like, you have to be,
7
SPEAKER_01
secure enough within yourself, or at least rude enough for herself that you can see that, oh, okay, when all of a sudden you re jumping through hoops, when A, maybe that person doesn t want to see you if there s not a sex possibility involved, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
Like, oh, we ll see each other on Saturday night instead, instead of meeting for lunch, junior work.
7
SPEAKER_01
Like, okay, they probably are interested in that.
7
SPEAKER_01
Or on the other side is like, okay, they re not gonna do this unless I roll out
7
SPEAKER_01
all these luxuries, otherwise they don t want to go for dinner or something.
7
SPEAKER_01
But that said, I do think that I like to operate on a position of trust with everybody.
7
SPEAKER_01
Meaning, even if they re enmeshed, even if all these other things we re talking about, I really want to give someone 100% trust.
7
SPEAKER_01
Because if you don t, you re already hurting the potential for what it can be.
7
SPEAKER_01
And just be aware of their warning signs and just be like, hey, I m not sure.
7
SPEAKER_00
Be discerning, yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, be discerning.
7
SPEAKER_01
So I think being really, really
7
SPEAKER_01
open and then not being afraid to see the warning signs and take a step back or discuss it.
7
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, but I think it all starts, I think it all starts from being secure within yourself.
7
SPEAKER_01
I think that it s important.
7
SPEAKER_01
I don t know why people know this intuitively, but they don t know it emotionally.
7
SPEAKER_01
We re wired when we re children, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
If our parents, caregivers leave us, well, we die when we re just infants.
7
SPEAKER_01
So some people think that as adults.
7
SPEAKER_01
If a person leaves us, we re going to die.
7
SPEAKER_01
And some people
7
SPEAKER_01
you know, do catastrophic things to themselves or others because of that, you know.
7
SPEAKER_01
But the fact is, you re literally going to be okay and you re going to find love again.
7
SPEAKER_01
And just having that security to be like, I m going to find someone great or probably better.
7
SPEAKER_01
And again, if somebody cheats on me, like, thank you, you showed me who you are.
7
SPEAKER_01
Like, now I get to move on.
7
SPEAKER_01
Like, I wish you told me sooner.
7
SPEAKER_01
So there s a great line that one of the therapists in The Truth said, that the only people who can be abandoned are children and dependent elders.
7
SPEAKER_01
Everyone else, the only person who can abandon you is yourself.
7
SPEAKER_00
That s strong.
7
SPEAKER_00
It seems like people want love and intimacy more than ever, but people are afraid of commitment more than ever.
7
SPEAKER_00
Why do you think that people are afraid to commit?
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think it s part of that paradox of choice, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
Like, I ve noticed that too, that we live in this...
7
SPEAKER_01
People have that mind and I think endless possibilities or choices Can I do better and now it s so easy to meet like literally like you re single you download Three apps and now you ve got 50 options, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
And it s so easy to be like, well, I m gonna trade this when a trade I can get better I can do better and that thing s not right.
7
SPEAKER_01
I don t have to fix it I can just throw it out and start all over again.
7
SPEAKER_01
And and that s why I
7
SPEAKER_01
That s why on these apps, when you re hiring for a job, right, it s really hard if you re going off, if you do a posting, because a lot of people come to you and have been looking for jobs forever.
7
SPEAKER_01
Or just leaving jobs after a few months because they re not hireable.
7
SPEAKER_01
The same is true in the dating apps, which is a lot of undateable people are circulating endlessly there.
7
SPEAKER_00
with other undateable people.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
And not to be hard on that.
7
SPEAKER_01
And by the way, many people have met, had love and gotten married and had amazing things.
7
SPEAKER_01
And just as many people have gotten amazing jobs through job searches, but it s tougher and there s less time to interview people.
7
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
7
SPEAKER_00
This is fascinating stuff, man.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s such interesting.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s really interesting.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s funny.
7
SPEAKER_01
We got back to relationships.
7
SPEAKER_01
It all gets back to relationships.
7
SPEAKER_00
What is, I ve only got about 10 minutes left with you.
7
SPEAKER_00
I ve got a whole nother section on creativity that we ll have to do another episode on.
7
SPEAKER_00
But I want to ask you, from this podcast that you re launching, when we put this out, it ll be out that week, it s called To Die For, and it s really powerful.
7
SPEAKER_00
Eight episodes from this series of interviewing this former Russian spy who manipulated men, who did harmful things to men, who got secrets from men, all these different things.
7
SPEAKER_00
What were the three biggest takeaways you learned from interviewing her about the human mind?
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
So in other words, yeah, I think the three biggest takeaways is, one is she had this technique called circles of hell.
7
SPEAKER_01
What was that?
7
SPEAKER_01
I know.
7
SPEAKER_01
So circles of hell was basically that what really gets us hooked, and be aware of this in your own life when you fall for it, is the push-pull.
7
SPEAKER_01
If I give someone, she would control people by punishment or reward.
7
SPEAKER_01
So we really go crazy with punishment reward, which is, you re acting nice, you get to come close and hang out with me, and now I don t like how you re acting, so I m gonna punish you and make you distance.
7
SPEAKER_00
Until you beg for forgiveness or whatever, yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
And we ve seen people in relationships who fall on that, and also in really toxic ways.
7
SPEAKER_01
So we would have a very toxic partner, but all of a sudden that person s all nice and loving and they go back to him.
7
SPEAKER_00
I ve experienced that in the past, yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so just beware if you re sort of, so that was one.
7
SPEAKER_00
I needed to listen to this podcast like 20 years ago.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
7
SPEAKER_00
Because I would have heard the signs.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s funny too, I also think, listen to your friends when you re in relationships.
7
SPEAKER_00
Oh man, yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
Sometimes the friends, I have so many friends, I ve had friends in those relationships where I m like, I can t say anything to them until later.
7
SPEAKER_01
Like, why didn t you tell me earlier?
7
SPEAKER_01
Like, I tried, but you shut me out of your life when I tried, so I stopped.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s tough.
7
SPEAKER_00
Okay, Circles of Hell.
7
SPEAKER_01
Circles of Hell is one.
7
SPEAKER_01
Second one is,
7
SPEAKER_01
Let s see, second awesome technique from her.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s funny, a lot of the stuff overlapped with the game, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
But she- But from a female point of view.
7
SPEAKER_01
From a female point of view.
7
SPEAKER_01
And besides sex, men s other biggest weaknesses?
7
SPEAKER_01
Flattery.
7
SPEAKER_01
Compliments, flattery.
7
SPEAKER_01
Oh, you look so good in that.
7
SPEAKER_01
Right.
7
SPEAKER_01
They get addicted to how they feel in the mouth themselves when they re with you.
7
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
7
SPEAKER_01
Right?
7
SPEAKER_01
Flattery.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so it s like, it s so nice to be around that, but like sometimes it can be like a manipulation.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s very seductive and manipulating.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I d say so.
7
SPEAKER_01
Flattery, Circles of Hell.
7
SPEAKER_01
Let me think, there were so much stuff.
7
SPEAKER_01
A lot of the stuff came from NLP.
7
SPEAKER_01
She did like a lot of
8
SPEAKER_02
She did a lot of, do you know what anchoring is?
8
SPEAKER_02
So basically, when she s talking to you and having you talk about a peak positive experience, she d try to touch you somewhere.
8
SPEAKER_02
Touch you on your shoulder, your arms.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, she d try to choose a place where maybe people normally don t touch, so like your neck would be a good one.
8
SPEAKER_02
I can give you a fourth bonus one.
8
SPEAKER_02
She s like, you know when the men are the most vulnerable?
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yes, in bed.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_02
And that one certain point in bed that she s like, at that point, you can do anything.
8
SPEAKER_02
She s like, you could kill.
8
SPEAKER_02
It s pretty intense.
8
SPEAKER_02
I can t believe she s like, you can kill them.
8
SPEAKER_02
Or you can if you whisper something or tell them something, it really implants in their brain in that point.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s the most vulnerable sexual moment.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_02
It s it s unbelievable.
8
SPEAKER_02
I mean, but I think it s
8
SPEAKER_02
None of this makes me be any less trusting in the world.
8
SPEAKER_02
So I think we should still have trust, but I think we should also see warning signs and run.
8
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely.
8
SPEAKER_01
This is fascinating, so the new podcast is called To Die For.
8
SPEAKER_01
You can find it anywhere on podcasts.
8
SPEAKER_01
Where else can we connect with you personally?
8
SPEAKER_01
I don t know if everyone knows this, but we had Rick Rubin on, and you helped co-write the book with him, which has been, I think, on the New York Times bestseller list for, what, a year and a half now or something?
8
SPEAKER_01
It s crazy how this has taken off, and it s such great writing, so congrats on the work together.
8
SPEAKER_01
because I know you played a big part in that collaboration, but how can we connect with you and support you besides listening to this podcast?
8
SPEAKER_01
Thank you, by the way.
8
SPEAKER_02
It s a great question.
8
SPEAKER_02
I don t know, I just love, I think I just love, I love what I do.
8
SPEAKER_02
Like, I love telling, I love, I love having these discussions.
8
SPEAKER_02
I love learning the stuff about the human mind, whether it s creativity from Rick, or like, you know, men s vulnerabilities from the Russian spy, or, you know, again, talking to you about your past.
8
SPEAKER_02
So I think just like,
8
SPEAKER_02
It just means a lot, just either engaging in conversation or reading, listening to the works or whatever.
8
SPEAKER_02
I love sharing the stories and the information.
8
SPEAKER_02
Wow.
8
SPEAKER_01
Where can we connect with you online?
8
SPEAKER_01
What s the best website and social media?
8
SPEAKER_02
I guess it s whatever one people use, but I would really rather people connect with me through just listening to the podcast.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, listening to the podcast.
8
SPEAKER_01
Or if they want to leave a comment about a message on Twitter or Instagram.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I try to avoid so hard promoting myself because I hate when people do that.
8
SPEAKER_01
But it s good, you re a professional assistant.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, probably Instagram.
8
SPEAKER_01
Neil Strauss on Instagram, right?
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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Okay, cool.
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So maybe if you listen to the podcast, share this with a friend.
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If you thought this was interesting, send it to a friend.
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And then leave a comment at one of Neil s Instagram posts and let him know what you thought about this episode, of course.
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But listen to To Die For.
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It s an eight-part series.
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The last one you did, which was To Live and Die in LA.
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Is that right?
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To Live and Die in LA.
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like took over the world.
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It was fascinating what you did with that.
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And I think that was four or five years or five years ago when you had that podcast.
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So if this
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is anything like that, and I know you re probably even better now, five years later, it is gonna blow people s minds.
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So I m so excited to listen to it myself when it comes out March 26th.
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Make sure to leave a review on there, leave a comment, give it five stars when you listen to it, because that ll help get the traction for the podcast as well.
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But it s to die for on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you listen to podcasts.
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By the way, first I m going to make a quick note.
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First of all, thanks for saying all those things.
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And I m going to give you an example of, remember what we talked about earlier, when you do something and then you reflect on it later?
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So I grew up in a childhood, and this is going to relate to exactly what you re saying, this great epiphany from what you just did.
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which is, I never spoke up for my own needs.
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So we were like, what can we do for you?
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How can we do that?
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I m like, nothing, right?
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And I m like, oh, me doing that, instead of just saying, yeah, I d love it if you could do this, was actually a bit of that left over, the discomfort of that.
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So interesting, right?
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So no matter where we get, we re still working on ourselves and looking at these things.
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But that s a cool lesson, so thank you.
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That s good, man.
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That s good.
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A couple of final questions for you, Neil.
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This is called The Three Truths.
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And you answered this five years ago when you were on Last, I think.
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But I m curious where you re at with this question now.
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Right.
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Hypothetical question.
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Imagine you get to live as long as you want to live.
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Right.
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But it s your last day on Earth.
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Right.
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You re as old as you want to be, but you know you re turning off the lights.
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You re going somewhere else.
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You re not in this world anymore.
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And you get to, from this moment until then, create anything you want to create.
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You get to have the relationships, the life, the art, the work, you get to do it all happens.
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But for whatever reason, you ve got to take it all with you.
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So we don t have access to any of the articles, books, podcasts, anything you ever make, it s gone.
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It s hypothetical world.
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But on the last day, you get to leave behind three lessons to the world, and this is all we have to remember your information by.
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I call it three truths.
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What would be those three truths for you?
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I feel like we learn through stories and so I m a storyteller.
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So I probably would find a way to tell a story.
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I want to leave Ryan just a very short story that people would remember that somehow helps them with themselves.
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But if there are three truths, I don t know.
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I don t know.
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Maybe I got a little longer before I find it.
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And because I also know that what I said five years ago is not what I d say now, not what I d say five years from now.
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What would you say today?
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What would be those four or three things?
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Today, I d be like, don t listen to anyone else s truths, just go find your own.
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The truths don t work if you don t find them yourself.
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And I realized that, as an example,
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I met a friend recently who was like, I just did this experience where I did ayahuasca straight for seven days.
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It was mind-blowing.
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It changed my whole life.
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I m like, cool, after doing ayahuasca straight for seven days and doing whatever you just did to your brain, what did you learn?
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He goes, man, tell you what I learned, trust.
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So I could just say my lesson is trust, but you have to trust.
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be in that guy s life for 30 years and then take ayahuasca for seven days to really get that lesson.
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So yeah, go live and experience and find your own truths.
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Okay, cool.
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Live, experience, find your own truths.
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There s three, I still- There you go, I like it.
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There you go.
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Before I ask the final question, Neil, I want to acknowledge you for a moment, even though you don t like acknowledgement, but I want to acknowledge you for the consistent, really commitment you have to your craft.
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because you have such a wide range of unique talents from writing and researching and podcasting and interviews and conversations and then shaping stories and narratives to help people or share experiences in a beautiful way.
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I just want to acknowledge you for the gift you have and consistently showing up.
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You ve written so many books in the last five years for some of the biggest names and talent in the world that you co-write with.
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You ve written many of your own books.
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You ve got this journey you re on with the podcast.
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So I just appreciate you, man.
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I acknowledge you for the whole journey you re on and how you keep evolving as a human being in life and health and relationships.
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So I just want to acknowledge you for a moment.
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Thank you.
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And I ll give you all my secret information.
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That was great.
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Perfect.
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No, thank you.
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No, thank you, seriously.
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Final question, what s your definition of greatness?
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I think my definition of greatness is just always improving and striving to be better, of taking where you are and looking at yourself and saying how can I do better or be better from whatever your starting point is.
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I hope today s episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness.
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Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today s show with all the important links.
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And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel on Apple podcast.
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If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend.
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Leave us a review over on Apple podcast and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis house.
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I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better.
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And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness Newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com slash newsletter.
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And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.
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And now it s time to go out there and do something great.