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 The relationship becomes the holder of all that stress and that is part of the divorce rate at the moment and the weight that has felt on the relationship.
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It's not just people didn't get along.
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 Welcome to the School of Greatness.
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My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur.
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And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness.
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Thanks for spending some time with me today.
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Now let the class begin.
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 What is the main thing you would recommend people work on themselves, whether in transition of relationships or in a relationship?
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Is there one thing that they could always be working on to improve themselves, to be better for other relationships?
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If their entire story about the relationship that just ended is about what the other person did wrong to them,
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 something is missing in the story.
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That doesn't mean that the other person may not have done things that were hurtful to them.
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But add to it, who were you in this relationship?
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What role did you play?
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What did you see that you didn't want to pay attention to?
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What things do you wish you had done differently?
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 What pieces do you wish that your partner had seen and accepted from you differently?
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Where did you wish you would have said less?
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And where did you wish you would have said more?
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What do you learn from this relationship?
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And if when you say what you learn, it's just that I want to make sure that the next person is...
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 It gives me what I need.
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Or is less of this or more of that.
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Who do you want to be in the next relationship?
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How are you going to add value?
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A relationship is a story of many people.
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It's not even a story just of two.
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 Who was too involved in your relationship?
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Who was not involved enough?
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So there's a cast of characters in a relationship.
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And it's all those questions that you want to ask when you are in transition.
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I think that's it.
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But there are both directions.
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If you find yourself with a spotlight only on the other person and you in a passive receptive
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 Stance you're missing.
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Yeah a whole pan of the story Yeah, and you're probably more of the problem than the other relationship than them if you're just focusing on them probably
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 A relationship is not about this person and that person.
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The relationship is what happens in between.
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This is my view on relationship.
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It's not an essentialist view.
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This is this personality and that personality.
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It's the dynamic.
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You can have a dynamic with a certain partner.
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You've had dynamics with certain partners.
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And of course, it was just the right fit between the match and the ignition.
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 And so you had enough inside of you to react with a certain kind of, let's put, your jealousy.
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But you may meet another person who acts differently, and you may still have a little bit of that jealousy inside of you, but it doesn't get activated because this person is responding very differently to you.
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And when you say, where were you?
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They don't say, why do you always have to ask me that question?
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They just say, I just went to do this.
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It's all good, darling.
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I'm right here.
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I've got you back.
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 And then you don't go into your chest pains.
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 you know, pain.
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So this is very important to understand.
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We are not the same person with different partners.
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We may have certain things that come out depending on what is being sent over to us.
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So the relationship is a figure eight.
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It's what I do that makes you do something, that then makes you react to me a certain way, that then draws that out of me, that draws that out of you, and each one actually creates the other.
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 And when you get that view of relationships, when you come out and you're in transition, you say to yourself, let's say I was with someone who completely disconnected.
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Okay, they disconnected.
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Did I push them away?
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 Are there ways in which I contributed sometimes to the disconnection?
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And that is not self-blame.
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That is understanding the dynamic.
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You can take responsibility about things without blaming yourself.
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 And you can hold the other person accountable without blaming them.
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It's not a blame dance.
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But it is an understanding of what did I do that made you do what you then did to me that made me mad.
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That's the relationship.
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And if someone's like, you know what, I listened to you yesterday.
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They really want to have an amazing relationship.
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They want to have a rich life.
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 knowing it's not going to be perfect but they want to create beauty and adventure and play and go through life through the sadness and the adversities and all the things that happen in life.
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 And they're thinking to themselves, how much should I pour into myself for my dreams, my health, my friends and family?
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How much should I pour into the other person, into their life that I'm creating a partnership with?
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And how much should I pour into the relationship itself?
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What would you say to that?
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 But you asked me, it's different questions, right?
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What keeps a relationship alive is one question.
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How much do you invest in a relationship is a different question.
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 I'm gonna go to the one about what keeps it alive.
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Because it's part of, and I'm suddenly watching the box and thinking, it is what I'm most interested in.
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Because I work on eroticism.
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What keeps us alive?
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What keeps us hopeful?
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What keeps us engaged with possibility?
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Not physically alive, but connected alive.
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Physically connected alive.
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Life force, life energy.
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Why?
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 Because I think everybody understands relationships that are not dead versus relationships that are alive.
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Teams that are not dead, companies versus companies that are alive.
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What is flourishing versus surviving?
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And because it is part of my personal history, and I come from a background of survivors, of parents who were in concentration camps, and I wanted to understand how do people stay alive when they spend five years in a concentration camp.
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 So that's why I've got interested in eroticism.
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Sexuality is a piece of this, but sexuality is not eroticism.
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You can have sex every day and feel nothing.
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Eroticism is the poetry that accompanies it.
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It's the meaning we give to it.
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It's the story that's attached.
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So eroticism in a relationship is the quality of imagination, curiosity, playfulness, mystery, risk-taking,
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 novelty that people bring to their relationship.
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Those are the things that I think bring life to a relationship.
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So, in the research of Eli Finkel, it means doing new things together, taking risks beyond your threshold, out of your comfort zone.
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Because if you do pleasant things that are familiar, it's cozy, it's friendship, it's love, but it's not exciting, it's not erotic, it's not necessarily desire.
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 It's calibrating your expectations.
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 So that you have, and that means diversifying your intimate connections or your deep connections, doesn't it?
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You know, for me, intimacy doesn't mean sexual either.
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It just means people that are important to you, that accompany you through the life stages and through the big events in life.
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These three things, expectations, calibrating expectations, diversifying your social connections and taking risks and doing new things is the research of Eli Finkel for
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 driving relationships.
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But then in that piece, I think play is essential.
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Playfulness, it's huge.
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And it is actually the quality of emotions that is the least talked about.
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 How often are you playing in your relationship?
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All the time.
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Humor is essential.
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It's an essential salve and balm in my relationship.
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I can be in the middle of an argument, and then I start to laugh.
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And then I just get perspective, and we just kind of ground ourselves back again.
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It's flirting.
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It's teasing.
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It's making fun of.
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 It's that whole realm of we're not really serious and we don't take ourselves that serious.
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And what happens when relationships are taking themselves very serious and they're not playing?
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Look, I had a teacher who once said to me, if a couple comes to you for therapy and there is absolutely zero humor left, it is diagnostic.
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Really?
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 Now, is it true?
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You know, nobody has proven that scientifically.
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But what you know is that humor.
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And if you listen to my podcast, if you listen to the sessions on where should we begin or on how is work, you'll see in the middle of talking about trauma,
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 painful event, major fights, strife, I laugh with them.
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I manage to see if they can see themselves, if they have a bit of distance, of perspective, if they understand sometimes the absurdity of the things that we get into, the things over which we fight, the way we do it.
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 Even if it's just a glimmer, a smile on the side, on the corner, I know they know that I know that we know and it creates that complicity and it invites a new possibility.
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 Some people may be resisting the humor, they want to hold on to the seriousness.
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Yes, if you want to hold on to righteousness, to I am right, to victimization, to I have the view that is the only view that matters and only my perception and my experience is the truth.
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 then you are in a polarized system that is rigid and unyielding.
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Humor and play is possibility.
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Possibility invites change.
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Change invites healing.
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Yes.
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 I want to ask you a few more questions, then I want us to play your game for a little bit.
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Over the last two years, was there anything that came up for you personally in your own inner world that you noticed, oh, there's something, like we talked about it, it created a lot of pressure for people if there were things that came out.
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Was there anything for you that you were like, huh, there's something I still need to work on myself?
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 need to continue the healing journey of that came out in the last couple of years with being at home and, you know, not doing things the way they used to be.
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I will answer this in two ways.
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The way that I experienced the pandemic.
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So in the first, in the beginning, right after I left you, I went back to New York and I went in lockdown.
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 And basically it was in the, you know, suddenly kind of, I got gripped with a bit of a panic.
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And primarily because I thought I can't catch this thing.
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Because if I catch it, I am now suddenly considered elderly.
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I'm past 60.
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Yeah, yeah.
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For the pandemic it changed.
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It suddenly shifted overnight.
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I became elderly.
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And that meant I wasn't sure if we entered the hospital, me or Jack,
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 that we will pass the triage.
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He's older than me.
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And I got really, really scared.
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I had a lot of post-traumatic stress symptoms that are very much connected to the Holocaust and to my family experience.
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That sense that overnight, this whole life I have built,
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 could just disappear like this.
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And it was irrational.
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I was terrified that Jack would die, to the point, you wanted to know about humor in my relationship?
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So we are in the middle of construction at the time, and there are workers, and at a point he comes to me and he says, I asked the workers to dig a hole in the garden.
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 I said, oh yeah, why?
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He said, so that when I die, you can just roll me right in.
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Oh my God.
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Wow, talk about humor.
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But I cracked up because he showed me, girl, you gripped in fear.
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And I just started to laugh and I just realized, no, no, no, he's not dead.
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Because I was ready to stop construction.
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I said, we're not making this.
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 No one can come here within a thousand yards of our area.
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No, no.
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It's more like we will not survive.
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No way.
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I was, I really, when it's post-traumatic, it's trauma is the word, right?
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So I really was very, very, very scared.
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And his humor diffused it for me and just brought me back and said, we're continuing to build.
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We're going to live.
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We're going to survive.
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Don't worry, girl.
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It's like,
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 So this was one and it slowly, you know, I entered into the long term of the pandemic and it dissolved.
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And that's when I understood this came out of that.
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I missed my friends.
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I missed my dinner parties.
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I missed intimacy.
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 And I created a host of different group experiences, pods.
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I had a movie club on Zoom on three continents.
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I had a book club.
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I had a yoga group that met four times a week still till now, that is over two continents.
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SPEAKER_03
Wow, that's cool.
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 And I had a hiking group.
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I had a swimming group in the summer.
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And then one day I said, I need to play and I need to continue to have conversations where I learn something new.
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I was so freaking tired of talking about the pandemic.
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Sure.
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And I said, I'm going to create a game, not having any idea of what this thing was going to become and what it represented.
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I just thought I want to do something creative.
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And I'm going to I want people to be able to talk about something that isn't just like, you know, when you live
0
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 six months like this, in lockdown, you begin to have the same conversation.
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So I just thought, how am I going to make couples have fun?
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 get energized, you know, be curious about each other, talk about something else.
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And I thought, we need to play, because play is a container, play gives you the possibility to take risks, to talk about things that you would otherwise not talk about, because it's under the guise of play.
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Play allows you to ask questions that you would otherwise not ask, certainly not to your partner, because we get more shy.
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 with the people that we live with than with strangers sometimes.
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You know, you're more daring to ask sometimes questions to strangers or people you've just met than the person you live with for decades on end.
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So play became very, very central.
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When you play you still
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 you still are able to lift yourself from the ground and it means you can enter the world of imagination and where the rules are different.
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And every child at this moment, you know, around the Ukrainian crisis, you can see when kids are still able to play, it is the moments when they are not in hypervigilance.
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It is an essential survival skill.
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Yes, yes.
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 underrated, and from that place came, where should we begin?
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It's one of the key things in relationship, and in life, is what I'm hearing you say.
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It's essential.
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It's essential.
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It's essential.
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Now here's another side question before we get into this.
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Play is problem solving, play is creativity, play is risk taking, play is... Spontaneity, it's all these things.
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It's the other side of fear.
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Well you can't, when you're playing, and as an athlete,
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 When I'm playing I'm not thinking about other things.
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If you're playing you get in the zone.
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You're flow.
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And you can't put your attention somewhere else.
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When you do that's when you mess up the game.
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You're not in your best flow state when you're thinking about something else.
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So play allows you to get out of that which I think is really powerful.
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 My friend Matt, he's like, I'm just, I'm always playing.
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When you play, do you play for fun or do you play for winning?
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To win?
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SPEAKER_03
Yes.
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No, I play for both.
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Yeah.
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I used to only play to win.
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Yeah.
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Now I play for fun, but I also, you know, it's like me and my girlfriend, we play cards a lot.
0
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We have a game that we started playing over the holidays called NERTS.
0
SPEAKER_03
It's kind of like speed solitaire, right?
0
SPEAKER_03
Where you both play and there's like some shared space in the middle where you play as well.
0
SPEAKER_03
 And we play for fun, but I'm also, I want to win.
0
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So it's like I'm competitive, but it's okay.
0
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I can just play and have fun too.
0
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And you can appreciate a good game that you lost.
0
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely.
0
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, absolutely.
0
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
0
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Cause it makes me want to go again.
0
SPEAKER_03
Let's play again.
0
SPEAKER_03
You know?
0
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So I love playing.
0
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_03
 But I used to be only I have to play to win and it was like an obsession And now that's shifted to I'm still a very competitive human, but I can play So I used to play without having to create a situation where there is a winner and a loser so that I could have fun That's great.
0
SPEAKER_01
And then I did it was the same idea here.
0
SPEAKER_01
That's what you know winner and
0
SPEAKER_01
 It's a storytelling game, so there is no winner, so that you don't have to compete so that you can have fun.
0
SPEAKER_01
Some people are like, yeah.
0
SPEAKER_03
I want to get into this in a second, but there's one thing I want to ask you about this last couple of years.
0
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If someone's listening or watching, and they're thinking to themselves, here's Esther Perel.
0
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She is one of the top people in the world on healing and therapy and connection, and she's been studying this and created best-selling books and podcasts and games, and this is your life's mission.
0
SPEAKER_03
 and yet she has post-traumatic stress or things that come up for her still and she's the expert in this.
0
SPEAKER_03
Is there anything that you feel like you still need work healing in order to let certain things go or are these things always gonna be with us at certain times, different stresses or pains or wounds or PTSD from the past of our individual lives?
0
SPEAKER_01
 Look, the notion that when you heal, something utterly disappears is one component of healing.
0
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But the other part is that you need a bigger trigger to reactivate an old wound, but there is a whole new range where the wound can live without being activated.
0
SPEAKER_03
You've healed a certain amount of triggers, but there might be a bigger.
0
SPEAKER_01
 You come back from Iraq, from Afghanistan, from all the wars that people have fought here, or you are a refugee from Syria or from Afghanistan, I mean, all sides.
0
SPEAKER_01
You may not at every siren jump anymore.
0
SPEAKER_01
 But if suddenly- If there's a bomb.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yes, you will jump.
0
SPEAKER_03
Gotcha.
0
SPEAKER_01
So the range and the response to the danger shifts.
0
SPEAKER_01
Gotcha.
0
SPEAKER_01
That's the piece around healing.
0
SPEAKER_01
I think for me,
0
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 It was a real surprise, this fear that I got to experience.
0
SPEAKER_01
I didn't remember that.
0
SPEAKER_01
It had been a long time.
0
SPEAKER_03
Because you're constantly doing the work.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yes, I thought I have kind of created a life where I have a sense of ownership, I have a sense of control.
0
SPEAKER_01
But I always live with dread.
0
SPEAKER_03
You do?
0
SPEAKER_01
I do.
0
SPEAKER_03
Still today?
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SPEAKER_01
My whole life.
0
SPEAKER_03
Live with dread like?
0
SPEAKER_01
 That every minute something could happen.
0
SPEAKER_03
The sky could fall.
0
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The whole thing could disappear.
0
SPEAKER_01
Because that is the core story of my family.
0
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But I don't have the dread all the time.
0
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But when it grips,
0
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 Now, in the past, it would grip without anything happening.
0
SPEAKER_01
It just was like happening to me because I had a day where I just didn't know what I was going to do with my life.
0
SPEAKER_01
So, it disappeared.
0
SPEAKER_01
I could talk about it, but I wouldn't necessarily feel it.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's physical.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's visceral.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's like you described the chest.
0
SPEAKER_01
For me, it's the gut.
0
SPEAKER_01
 But when the pandemic arrives, it's a trigger that is strong enough to bring back that sense of dread.
0
SPEAKER_01
And at that time, I wasn't aware of my dread, I was feeling my dread.
0
SPEAKER_01
That's very different.
0
SPEAKER_01
That's what I mean by the external versus the internal.
0
SPEAKER_03
 I am so excited to travel this summer.
0
SPEAKER_03
And have you ever thought about all the people that make a vacation truly great?
0
SPEAKER_03
The pilot that gets you to your destination, the hotel concierge that knows all the best spots, the chefs that make the incredible food that you eat.
0
SPEAKER_03
You know, outstanding talent is crucial for a successful business also.
0
SPEAKER_03
And if you're hiring, you can find talent for roles like these and more when you try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash greatness.
0
SPEAKER_03
 Now, ZipRecruiter uses a powerful technology to find and match the right candidates up with your job.
0
SPEAKER_03
And get this, four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter, they get a quality candidate within the first day.
0
SPEAKER_03
That is so powerful for growing business.
0
SPEAKER_03
So travel to this easy to remember web destination, ZipRecruiter.com slash greatness.
0
SPEAKER_03
That's where you can try ZipRecruiter for free.
0
SPEAKER_03
Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com slash G-R-E-A-T-N-E-S-S.
0
SPEAKER_03
ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire.
0
SPEAKER_01
 Now, what did people struggle with?
0
SPEAKER_01
People have struggled with prolonged uncertainty.
0
SPEAKER_01
 Here are the five things of the pandemic that have affected relationships the most.
0
SPEAKER_01
One is a prolonged sense of uncertainty.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's not just that you're not sure when this is going to end, but you're not sure about you're not being sure.
0
SPEAKER_01
This thing keeps coming and going all the time.
0
SPEAKER_01
One minute you say it's gone, the next minute you realize it's not gone at all.
0
SPEAKER_01
Then it's the notion of what we experienced was a collapse of all the boundaries.
0
SPEAKER_01
Here I am.
0
SPEAKER_01
 I'm at home, I'm on my chair, at my kitchen table, and I am a therapist, and a supervisor, and a podcaster, and a mother, and a friend, and a wife, and, and, and, and I haven't left the chair, and I'm still just in sweatpants with the, you know, and I'm like, where is work, where is life, where is morning, where is night, where is just like,
0
SPEAKER_01
 All the roles have collapsed and we are not made like this.
0
SPEAKER_01
We are physical people and we are spatially oriented and we change location for our activities, we change clothes for our activities and they help us enter the role.
0
SPEAKER_01
 now I'm going to work, now I'm going to play sports, now I'm going to the club, now I'm going out, now I'm going to visit my mother.
0
SPEAKER_01
And I look, I feel different, I look different, I wear different, I have rituals, I have things, a different bag, a different racket.
0
SPEAKER_01
None of this.
0
SPEAKER_01
Do you know what it means when your entire arsenal of rituals that give meaning and frame your parts dissolves?
0
SPEAKER_01
You get exhausted.
0
SPEAKER_01
 So that was the collapse of boundaries.
0
SPEAKER_01
Then there was the sense of ambiguous loss.
0
SPEAKER_01
You know, we lost spontaneity, we lost plans, we lost the weddings, the graduations, the parties, the promotions, everything.
0
SPEAKER_03
Sports, games, everything, yeah.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's not, there is the loss of death, but there is that other loss, the buildings that are standing, but they're empty.
0
SPEAKER_01
They're physically present, but emotionally vacated.
0
SPEAKER_01
 We have the grandparents and the parents that are physically gone but emotionally present.
0
SPEAKER_01
We call that ambiguous loss, when you are either physically present and psychologically gone or psychologically present and physically gone.
0
SPEAKER_01
That ambiguous loss became a part of what then Adam Grant began to describe in the languishing.
0
SPEAKER_01
Languishing is you're not depressed, you're just like,
0
SPEAKER_01
 lifeless, flat, listless, nothing is really giving you the sense of meaning and purpose and joy that you generally want.
0
SPEAKER_01
That has happened in your relationship.
0
SPEAKER_01
And what happens when you are in a period of liminality like this, where the big dilemmas are not getting answered, is that all the unknowns are filtering onto your relationships.
0
SPEAKER_01
 And the relationship becomes the holder of all that stress.
0
SPEAKER_01
And that is part of the divorce rate at the moment and the weight that has felt on the relationship.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's not just people didn't get along.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's that people needed in the relationships to deal from the political polarization to the racial reckoning, to the economic insecurity, to the ambiguous loss, to the prolonged uncertainty.
0
SPEAKER_01
All of that fell on relationships.
0
SPEAKER_01
 This is the story of the last two years, that people know, they feel it, but they don't necessarily articulate it.
0
SPEAKER_03
 It's hard to make a relationship last if you don't have the tools and you're not willing to work through it.
0
SPEAKER_01
How do you stay grounded when the ground itself is moving?
0
SPEAKER_03
It's quicksand.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's the great adaptation of this moment.
0
SPEAKER_01
And so relationships began to see the cracks inside their relationship and people also began to see the light that shines through the cracks, both ends.
0
SPEAKER_03
Yes.
0
SPEAKER_03
 Well, play is key in a relationship and I'm glad that I'm playful and I'm down for this game.
0
SPEAKER_03
Where should we begin?
0
SPEAKER_01
I'm going to hook you to this game so that you and Marta get to tell stories to each other like never before.
0
SPEAKER_03
This is a game that came to you, you know, this is one of the things that came to you during the pandemic because you wanted to have creativity, you wanted to have play, connection, all these different things.
0
SPEAKER_03
 So you created this game, Where Should We Begin?
0
SPEAKER_03
A game of stories by Esther Perel.
0
SPEAKER_03
And there's no winner, there's no loser, so it's not the type of game I'm used to playing.
0
SPEAKER_01
Typically.
0
SPEAKER_03
Yes, exactly.
0
SPEAKER_03
So we both have a set of cards.
0
SPEAKER_03
Do I pick any or should I give you one?
0
SPEAKER_01
No, you pick from mine.
0
SPEAKER_01
I'm gonna have you pick from mine.
0
SPEAKER_01
Should I go first or you go first?
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you go first.
0
SPEAKER_01
You sure?
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_03
Let's go with the safest one.
0
SPEAKER_03
 Okay, so then I pick, and do I get to say if I want to answer it or not?
0
SPEAKER_02
No, you have to answer.
0
SPEAKER_03
I have to answer it, okay.
0
SPEAKER_03
A rule I secretly love to break.
0
SPEAKER_03
A rule.
0
SPEAKER_01
 When are you rude breaking?
0
SPEAKER_03
I feel like I'm always breaking the... But it's a story.
0
SPEAKER_03
Okay, I gotta tell a story, okay.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's a story.
0
SPEAKER_01
Why?
0
SPEAKER_01
Why do I always break?
0
SPEAKER_01
I actually think stories, relationships are stories.
0
SPEAKER_01
Stories are bridges to each other, stories bind us, so... Here's a rule I like to break, consistently.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
0
SPEAKER_03
 Since we're going on the story of play, in some ways I feel like I've emotionally and physically matured and grown up.
0
SPEAKER_03
In other ways, I feel like I've kept this childlike curiosity inside of me.
0
SPEAKER_03
It's one of the reasons why I love to interview people and do the podcast.
0
SPEAKER_03
It's one of the reasons I try to make people feel uncomfortable when I meet them for the first time by asking them questions that maybe they wouldn't have
0
SPEAKER_03
 you know, answered with a stranger.
0
SPEAKER_03
So one of the things I love to break is, in my relationship, is trying to bring play to every moment, even when it's stressful.
0
SPEAKER_03
Do you like to be goofy?
0
SPEAKER_03
I love to be goofy, love to be silly, and tease.
0
SPEAKER_03
And I think there's a difference between teasing and bullying.
0
SPEAKER_03
I don't want to be a bully.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's a world apart.
0
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, exactly.
0
SPEAKER_03
I don't want to be a bully, but I love to be playful and tease and just
1
SPEAKER_00
 through a little, what about this?
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, a little comment here.
1
SPEAKER_00
Marta, she says that she thinks I was like, you know, a Mexican in another life because I have, she says I have the humor, not of a white person from America, but of a Mexican because I'm teasing and playful and I have a sarcasm that she says is similar to the way that she grew up.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I think for me, I don't take anything too seriously.
1
SPEAKER_00
 and especially in the relationship, which why I love that you said play is one of the keys to success.
1
SPEAKER_00
And which is why if someone is not reciprocal, then it becomes challenging if they're not wanting to play with you.
1
SPEAKER_04
It's like throwing a ball that drops the floor.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you're playing ping pong and it just, with yourself, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
So that is a rule I love to secretly break, is just being a child, having childlike energy,
1
SPEAKER_00
 but having maturity at the same time.
1
SPEAKER_00
So then what?
1
SPEAKER_00
I finish the card and now it's your turn, right?
1
SPEAKER_04
Right now we're doing it like this but sometimes I put two cards and then I get to pick for the other person or people pick themselves.
1
SPEAKER_04
 Then we have little orange tokens in which when you play with a group, we can put pressure on the card.
1
SPEAKER_04
And then the group says, we want you to talk about this.
1
SPEAKER_00
So it becomes very... To make someone, kind of like have someone do it, yes.
1
SPEAKER_04
So there's all kinds of variations, but it's... I kind of want to do a sexual one with you.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think we took all those cards out, but here, I'll let you just choose one.
1
SPEAKER_04
You asked for us to take them out, so I was going to do... I know, I should have.
1
SPEAKER_04
 Oh God, the most humiliated I've ever felt.
1
SPEAKER_04
 Oh God, you know.
1
SPEAKER_04
The most embarrassing or humiliating story?
1
SPEAKER_04
No, I can tell you immediately the thing.
1
SPEAKER_04
I'm like 10, 11, so it goes back a long time.
1
SPEAKER_02
I stole a candy.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, that's it?
1
SPEAKER_02
Well, you don't wanna be caught.
1
SPEAKER_00
You got caught.
1
SPEAKER_02
I got caught.
1
SPEAKER_00
By who?
1
SPEAKER_00
Your parents, by the store person?
1
SPEAKER_04
By a person that was waiting in line.
1
SPEAKER_00
They saw you.
1
SPEAKER_02
They saw me and said to the person.
1
SPEAKER_00
She stole it, no way.
1
SPEAKER_00
 What did you have to do?
1
SPEAKER_02
I gave it back.
1
SPEAKER_02
And she said, you have to pay for it.
1
SPEAKER_02
I said, I don't want it.
1
SPEAKER_02
She said, you have to pay for it.
1
SPEAKER_02
I said, I don't have the money.
1
SPEAKER_02
She said, you leave me something and then you come back with the money.
1
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
1
SPEAKER_00
So you have to pay for it even though you didn't take it?
1
SPEAKER_04
Well, I didn't have the money.
1
SPEAKER_04
So I went home.
1
SPEAKER_04
I got the money because I had to leave my school.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh my gosh.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, you had to leave like some collateral.
1
SPEAKER_00
So like your ID or your phone at the time.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_04
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_04
I had to leave collateral.
1
SPEAKER_04
 and bring money back.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's so embarrassing, it's humiliating.
1
SPEAKER_04
It's like, yeah, because if you're gonna take something, you're not supposed to take the whole point of it.
1
SPEAKER_00
Is then I get caught.
1
SPEAKER_04
Is not to be caught.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, it's interesting, and I probably love this because I bet other people have conversations when you answer, and then it triggers something in someone else.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
I stole for a couple years from, I don't know, 10, 11, somewhere around there, 11, 12.
1
SPEAKER_00
Save it, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Candy all the time, right, candy.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I thought I was so smooth.
1
SPEAKER_00
I never got caught from a store.
1
SPEAKER_00
But one time, I went to my, this was the most humiliating, probably, and embarrassing, and probably the most shameful thing, you know, as a kid growing up.
1
SPEAKER_00
My dad brought me and a friend of mine, after basketball practice, to go to one of his clients.
1
SPEAKER_00
He sold life insurance.
1
SPEAKER_00
And we had to drive about 45 to an hour away to a farm.
1
SPEAKER_00
He was like a client of his at a farm in Ohio.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And we go there and my dad's like, okay, you kids hang out on the farm or whatever in the house and walk around.
1
SPEAKER_00
I gotta talk to Mr. So-and-so for an hour to go over stuff.
1
SPEAKER_00
 So we're walking around, nosy little kids, you know, 12 years old, go down in the basement, and I'm like opening up drawers, I'm doing stuff I shouldn't do, and I see a wallet.
1
SPEAKER_00
I take out the wallet, I open it up, there's a $20 bill and a $5 bill.
1
SPEAKER_00
And we're looking at each other, we're like, should we do this?
1
SPEAKER_00
And I'm like, you will never know.
1
SPEAKER_00
I take the five, my friend takes the 20.
1
SPEAKER_00
I get woken up that night at, I don't know, 4 a.m.
1
SPEAKER_00
in the morning.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And my dad is hovering over me.
1
SPEAKER_00
At this time, my dad's pretty intimidating still, and he's hovering over me.
1
SPEAKER_00
Did you steal from so-and-so money?
1
SPEAKER_00
And I go, no.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right away, I'm like, am I dreaming?
1
SPEAKER_00
Am I awake?
1
SPEAKER_00
I'm like, no, I'm defending myself, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
Lied right to my dad.
1
SPEAKER_00
And he goes, Mr. So-and-so was going to buy food for his cows, right, or for his animals on the farm.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And he doesn't have the money to go buy the food, like it's gone.
1
SPEAKER_00
I go, I don't know, I don't know what happened.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, I just lied.
1
SPEAKER_00
But I was also like waking up, I was like disoriented.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then he calls my friend's parents and he admits to it.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it was the most humiliating, embarrassing, shameful thing because I had to drive back alone.
1
SPEAKER_00
My friend didn't have to go, but I drove back for the hour.
1
SPEAKER_00
 With my parents in the front seat, me in the back seat just so ashamed.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I had to go face this guy and say I'm sorry with like the most, you know, he was just so frustrated and angry and upset.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I never stole again after that.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I don't know, did you steal after that moment?
1
SPEAKER_04
No, you know, my moment.
1
SPEAKER_04
 is I'm taking the thing and somebody goes like this.
1
SPEAKER_00
No, they did that?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
No way.
1
SPEAKER_00
I still have the book.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh my gosh.
1
SPEAKER_02
And it's like you freeze.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh my gosh.
1
SPEAKER_02
Oh, the shame.
1
SPEAKER_02
The humiliation.
1
SPEAKER_00
Shame.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'll never forget this guy's face.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like I was 12 years old, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oops.
1
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
If I could whisper something in the ear of my younger self, I would say,
1
SPEAKER_00
 And I'd probably say something very loving.
1
SPEAKER_00
Part of me wanted to be playful, but I'd probably say something loving, because that's what I needed to hear.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'd probably say that you are loved, you matter, and it's all gonna be okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's what I would say, because I think that's what I needed to hear the most.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And it's funny because I've said this so many times on my show, so my audience is gonna get tired of me saying this when I'm gonna show you this.
1
SPEAKER_00
Over a year ago, I put a photo of my younger self on my screensaver, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
I've talked about this so many times now.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so for the last year, this is my therapist, Clara, had me do work on my inner child, on healing the relationship that I had with myself back then, and really having intimate conversations, exercises,
1
SPEAKER_00
 with the five, six, seven-year-old that was sexually abused.
1
SPEAKER_00
I've talked about that with you before, which I never really fully healed, you know, that whole conversation with.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it's been a beautiful journey to have intimacy, connection, you know, and bridge the gap from five, six, seven till now and be able to have a conversation between that space and time and really bring the two together, you know, my inner child into me through healing.
1
SPEAKER_04
So what would this one say to you?
1
SPEAKER_00
 What would he say to me?
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh my gosh.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's a good... Actually... That's really good.
1
SPEAKER_04
May I bring it back?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_04
What does he say to you?
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh my gosh, he probably says... Let me see, let me get my heart here.
1
SPEAKER_00
He says thank you.
1
SPEAKER_00
Thank you for...
1
SPEAKER_00
 being willing to be courageous in all these scary emotions, all the scary emotions that I'm feeling right now, the things that I'm uncertain about, the things that I'm afraid of.
1
SPEAKER_00
Thank you for having the courage to dive in and put all your emotions on the table, address the messiness, handle it all.
1
SPEAKER_00
 and supporting me in finding peace and healing that I've always wanted.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's what I would say, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
So, yeah, no, it's crazy.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's crazy.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Oh, okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
Okay, I'm going to the next one.
1
SPEAKER_00
This is what I do, I laugh when things get deep too.
1
SPEAKER_00
I get deep and then I'm like, okay.
1
SPEAKER_04
You laugh when your tears are streaming down your face.
1
SPEAKER_00
Of course, of course.
1
SPEAKER_00
Okay, this is you.
1
SPEAKER_04
Oops.
1
SPEAKER_04
I would sell everything to be able to.
1
SPEAKER_04
 It's interesting, I don't have a dream, you know, I live a lot of my dreams at this moment, so I don't feel like I would sell, but I think if I was to, I would sell everything
1
SPEAKER_04
 to remain healthy.
1
SPEAKER_04
Or I would set everything for my kids or my partner to be healthy.
1
SPEAKER_04
And if I needed to, I would go everywhere in the world just to make sure that if there's something that can keep them, it's not just alive, it's healthy.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because I don't want them just to.
1
SPEAKER_00
Not to suffering and alive, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_04
I think that at this point, that's the only.
1
SPEAKER_00
Is that the biggest fear for you?
1
SPEAKER_04
 Yes, but you see, when I say I live with dread, you jumped like, really?
1
SPEAKER_04
Because it's not
1
SPEAKER_04
 I live with the fear of loss.
1
SPEAKER_04
It's not dread, just bad things happening.
1
SPEAKER_04
What's underneath is the fact that my parents had lost everybody, and so their entire families, they were the only two that came out.
1
SPEAKER_04
And this is part of my DNA.
1
SPEAKER_04
And so the fear of loss, of traumatic loss, and the grief, that's what I fear.
1
SPEAKER_04
So health, or selling everything,
1
SPEAKER_04
 or imagining myself cruising the world to find the best doctor that could help me with something is part of preventing that loss.
1
SPEAKER_04
 You know.
1
SPEAKER_00
Have you had major losses?
1
SPEAKER_04
No, except, actually, I, on a personal level, have not.
1
SPEAKER_04
But I often, you know, if one of them drives, I often, at night.
1
SPEAKER_04
You're worried.
1
SPEAKER_04
You know, I just, I've never said, don't go, but I just like the little call when they arrive.
1
SPEAKER_00
You're like my mom, too.
1
SPEAKER_04
I can easily imagine accidents.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, man.
1
SPEAKER_04
I can easily imagine, yes, I am a catastrophizer in that sense.
1
SPEAKER_04
 you know.
1
SPEAKER_04
So what does therapy do?
1
SPEAKER_04
It allows you to just, in the mind, it's like, no.
1
SPEAKER_04
It calms the mind.
1
SPEAKER_04
You go out, it calms you.
1
SPEAKER_04
But I still like the cold.
1
SPEAKER_04
 So the fear is loss and the dread is the manifestation of that fear.
1
SPEAKER_04
So I would sell everything.
1
SPEAKER_04
Actually, I don't know what it's like.
1
SPEAKER_04
I could put it like that.
1
SPEAKER_04
I would sell everything to be able to live without dread.
1
SPEAKER_04
 That would probably be the... What would it take from you to process, to let that go?
1
SPEAKER_04
I don't know.
1
SPEAKER_04
I look at people who don't have those fears and I think they are free of this.
1
SPEAKER_04
It's like, what does life look like without worry?
1
SPEAKER_04
 Peaceful, you know.
1
SPEAKER_04
They have other things.
1
SPEAKER_00
Other stresses, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_04
It's an amazing thing when I see people who don't have, you know, that is not their thing.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_04
I don't have their things.
1
SPEAKER_00
You don't have jealousy or insecurity.
1
SPEAKER_04
No, I don't have that.
1
SPEAKER_00
Do you work with a therapist yourself?
1
SPEAKER_04
 I have.
1
SPEAKER_04
I don't work with a therapist at this moment, but I have over the many years of my life.
1
SPEAKER_04
Yes, I've had.
1
SPEAKER_00
Do you think it's important for therapists to have therapists?
1
SPEAKER_04
Absolutely.
1
SPEAKER_04
Absolutely.
1
SPEAKER_04
First of all, if you don't, then you will be triggered by things that people bring into your office, and you will be projecting things on them that don't belong to them.
1
SPEAKER_04
We call that counter-transference.
1
SPEAKER_04
So, you know, there is what people put on you, but there is what you put on them,
1
SPEAKER_00
 because you have something unresolved.
1
SPEAKER_04
Or there is what you can't work with because of what is happening inside of you.
1
SPEAKER_04
So it's an essential.
1
SPEAKER_00
So you've got to be cleansing yourself constantly probably.
1
SPEAKER_04
It's essential.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Interesting, where do you think, you said you haven't had a therapist in a while or worked with one in a while, where do you think, what would be available?
1
SPEAKER_04
What would I go to for today?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, what would be available for you today if you were doing it?
1
SPEAKER_04
Today I would go to a coach because I need practical help.
1
SPEAKER_04
It's less internal at this moment.
1
SPEAKER_04
It's more practical things.
1
SPEAKER_00
What's holding you back from?
1
SPEAKER_04
 I don't.
1
SPEAKER_04
I am a person who likes to receive help.
1
SPEAKER_00
You just haven't found the right coach.
1
SPEAKER_04
I wrote a whole piece recently about asking for help in the blog because I realized that it's very easy for me to ask for help.
1
SPEAKER_04
Actually, when we met early, early on I asked for help.
1
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
1
SPEAKER_00
 You're like, I've never done this marketing stuff.
1
SPEAKER_04
Yes, like I know nothing about marketing.
1
SPEAKER_04
You're like the genius marketer.
1
SPEAKER_04
I'm a therapist who suddenly finds that.
1
SPEAKER_04
And I just thought I know people and they can help me.
1
SPEAKER_04
And I don't feel like I have no problem saying I know nothing about this.
1
SPEAKER_04
 But because I know, I trust what I do know a lot about, and this is new for me.
1
SPEAKER_04
So I don't experience it as belittling or admitting or vulnerable.
1
SPEAKER_04
I think it's an amazing thing to ask for help.
1
SPEAKER_04
And by the way, I did ask on social.
1
SPEAKER_04
 I asked people, you know, how do you feel about asking for help?
1
SPEAKER_04
And like 70 something percent of people said, I don't do it.
1
SPEAKER_04
I don't like it.
1
SPEAKER_04
That doesn't make me feel good, etc.
1
SPEAKER_04
And then I said, and how do you feel when other people ask you for help?
1
SPEAKER_04
And the same 70 percent said, I love it.
1
SPEAKER_04
 And I'm thinking, you know what?
1
SPEAKER_04
It's like when other people ask, you don't think they're stupid, they don't know, they're vulnerable, they're, you know, you think... You want to help.
1
SPEAKER_00
You want to help.
1
SPEAKER_04
Well, why don't you think that when you ask for help, other people enjoy that too?
1
SPEAKER_04
 So I'm big into the asking for help these days.
1
SPEAKER_04
And therapy is a piece of that.
1
SPEAKER_04
At this moment, therapy is not the thing I need.
1
SPEAKER_04
But that doesn't mean that, you know, Jack thinks I should meditate.
1
SPEAKER_00
That actually I... Maybe you need a meditation coach.
1
SPEAKER_04
So I do, I do, but in movement.
1
SPEAKER_04
I get calm when I move.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, when you walk or you're hiking.
1
SPEAKER_04
I don't sit.
1
SPEAKER_04
That does not work for me.
1
SPEAKER_00
What's the one thing that triggers you the most that you would like to evolve beyond?
1
SPEAKER_04
 What's the thing that irritates you or triggers you or frustrates you?
1
SPEAKER_04
Bureaucrats.
1
SPEAKER_04
Rigidity.
1
SPEAKER_04
Rigidity, which is the opposite of playfulness.
1
SPEAKER_00
Not flexibility.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right.
1
SPEAKER_04
And arbitrariness.
1
SPEAKER_04
Rules for the sake of rules.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_04
Bureaucracy.
1
SPEAKER_04
 you know, in the big sense of the word and bureaucrats as a whole, you know, that, you know, things that, you know, rigidity, which means that you write, you don't listen to others, you make your point, I mean,
1
SPEAKER_04
 Conversations that are not conversations, people that yell at each other for the sake of yelling at each other, cancel culture from all sides.
1
SPEAKER_01
Frustrating, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_04
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_04
I mean, my work is about helping people have the difficult conversations that they need to have, want to have, don't know how to have.
1
SPEAKER_04
As long as they want to, I can do something.
1
SPEAKER_04
 If they think they know it all, and if they think they know you even better than you know yourself, and that they have no curiosity, I find that challenging.
1
SPEAKER_04
I love curiosity.
1
SPEAKER_04
I hate... What's the opposite of curiosity?
1
SPEAKER_00
Fixed.
1
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, certainty.
1
SPEAKER_04
But certainty is the enemy of change.
1
SPEAKER_00
 I want to go one more question each.
1
SPEAKER_00
I want to make sure I'm respectful of time.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think we've got about 10 more minutes.
1
SPEAKER_00
Before I ask the, I think it's mine.
1
SPEAKER_00
Before I ask, because I want to pick it, but you just brought something up to me that I had a conversation with another therapist, Dr. Romney, and she speaks all about narcissism.
1
SPEAKER_04
Yes, she was the keynote speaker at a conference that I went to this year too.
1
SPEAKER_00
And this video got so much attention that I did with her, this interview.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And we don't have to go into it for too long, but you were just mentioning how people have, like, that don't want to do the work, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
You mentioned, like, they're fixed, they're shouting for shouting, they're not willing to look at themselves.
1
SPEAKER_00
And she was mentioning how it's really hard to diagnose a narcissist because they have to be willing to come to therapy and most of them will never do it unless they're forced to.
1
SPEAKER_00
 In your practice, do you interact with a lot of narcissists?
1
SPEAKER_00
And she also mentions how it's almost impossible.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don't wanna say exact words she said, but I think she said it's almost impossible for a narcissist to change and evolve.
1
SPEAKER_00
Unless they do therapy everyday type of mentality where they really are practicing this thing on a consistent basis.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I'm sure there's a spectrum of narcissistic personality traits and a range of how strong someone is in that.
1
SPEAKER_00
 What's your thoughts on narcissism in general and can people change or evolve out of it?
1
SPEAKER_04
 I can answer it clinically and culturally.
1
SPEAKER_04
I mean, maybe we should start by talking about, like Christopher Lasch talked about, we do live in a narcissistic culture.
1
SPEAKER_00
A selfie culture, the likes.
1
SPEAKER_04
We live in a culture of narcissism.
1
SPEAKER_04
Once you are continuously evaluating yourself, proving yourself, performing, demonstrating yourself, posting about yourself, engaging in fake news about yourself, you are in a narcissistic culture.
1
SPEAKER_04
 that, you know, criteria, diagnosis, accompany the culture of the day.
1
SPEAKER_04
In the 19th century, we talked about hysteria.
1
SPEAKER_04
We do not talk much about hysteria today, because we realized that the majority of these hysteric women, supposedly hysteric women, were actually women who had experienced sexual abuse.
1
SPEAKER_04
They were not hysterical, they were traumatized.
1
SPEAKER_04
 Narcissism is the word that we come back with on the 21st century.
1
SPEAKER_04
Stress and anxiety and depression was the 20th century.
1
SPEAKER_04
So every century and every culture has its expressions through mental
1
SPEAKER_04
 illness or mental manifestations.
1
SPEAKER_04
Eating disorders exist in some cultures and not in others.
1
SPEAKER_04
A diagnosis, a personality disorder, doesn't just exist like that without a background.
1
SPEAKER_04
 So, that means that it's easy to make these issues very personal, but they are also societal.
1
SPEAKER_04
That said, I have sat with people who have a whole range of narcissistic tendencies.
1
SPEAKER_04
To get to saying somebody is a narcissist, somebody is depressed, somebody is, you know, I think that there are, there's more to us than just that.
1
SPEAKER_04
 But you see a lot of people with narcissistic tendencies, and you see a lot of people who are not just exhibiting it with manifest narcissism, but there's a whole other form of narcissism that is called covert narcissism, which we talk about much less because we don't name it in those ways.
1
SPEAKER_00
What is the difference?
1
SPEAKER_04
 That is a long conversation.
1
SPEAKER_04
That is really a long conversation.
1
SPEAKER_00
In the short form, what is the?
1
SPEAKER_04
You know, power can come from above and power can come from underneath.
1
SPEAKER_04
You can have power through victimization.
1
SPEAKER_04
You can make people feel guilty all the time.
1
SPEAKER_04
You can be passive aggressive.
1
SPEAKER_04
You can make people continuously feel that they are responsible for your life, that if they don't do what you want, that you may kill yourself.
1
SPEAKER_04
There's loads of ways to make other people submit themselves to you.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And that would be considered covert?
1
SPEAKER_04
Those are expressions of more covert narcissism.
1
SPEAKER_00
Covert, it's not like this domineering.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's right.
1
SPEAKER_00
But it's a psychological.
1
SPEAKER_04
You can control people from the top and you can control people from underneath.
1
SPEAKER_04
Ah, interesting, yes.
1
SPEAKER_04
You know, I think that there is a certain profile at this point of when we say narcissist, everybody has five or six associations that are quite similar.
1
SPEAKER_04
And this is really a whole other conversation.
1
SPEAKER_01
Sure.
1
SPEAKER_04
 What I will say is that, yes, I have sat with people who have very little regard, people who bring everything onto themselves, people who see everything as a reflection of themselves, people who are charming, charming when they need to seduce you, and then once they think they have you,
1
SPEAKER_04
 They turn and they go into the next people who they need to charm, but those that they have already recruited are disregarded and discarded.
1
SPEAKER_00
So they got the most out of them already, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_04
 you know, people who can lie pathologically to you, people who have very little empathy for what is happening.
1
SPEAKER_04
So there is a cluster of things, but I think for me, I tend to look at behaviors, and I tend to look at interactions, because I'm a relational therapist, and I'm a systems-oriented therapist, and so I less spend my time labeling a personality.
1
SPEAKER_04
 I think it's useful on occasion, but it is not my primary vocabulary.
1
SPEAKER_04
But she's very, very eloquent about it.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes, yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
We'll have to have you back on to do a whole two hour conversation on that another time, because there's a lot to that.
1
SPEAKER_04
It's really, I do not want to talk about complex topics in a short amount of time, because it doesn't do them justice, and I don't like to reinforce
1
SPEAKER_00
 Notions that have not been examined absolutely yeah that are easy to grab on we'll have you back on for that I'll do one final card, and I think I've got to make sure I'm respecting him the time Okay, I'm my own worst enemy when I
1
SPEAKER_00
 It's interesting.
1
SPEAKER_00
I... You know what?
1
SPEAKER_00
You want to give me a different one?
1
SPEAKER_04
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
I want to give you this.
1
SPEAKER_04
Because of what happened just a few minutes before.
1
SPEAKER_00
The last time I cried was yesterday.
1
SPEAKER_00
In terms of... My father just died two months ago.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so I've been crying a lot.
1
SPEAKER_00
Every couple of days I hear a song that really connects me to a memory, to him, and to the whole...
1
SPEAKER_00
 It was a sad experience because he happened into a car accident 17 years ago, had a severe brain trauma, was in a coma for three months, then he woke up.
1
SPEAKER_00
He went in a different country, in New Zealand at the time, I was in college.
1
SPEAKER_00
Then he came back and it was like my dad was physically here, but emotionally, mentally, and spiritually not.
1
SPEAKER_03
 Ambiguous loss.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_03
This is it.
1
SPEAKER_00
I never was able to fully grieve.
1
SPEAKER_03
That's ambiguous loss.
1
SPEAKER_00
My father, he was physically here, but the emotion.
1
SPEAKER_03
We're not the same person.
1
SPEAKER_00
And every interaction I had with him was reminding me of the loss.
1
SPEAKER_00
Was, I'm grateful he's here, and it's great to experience some time with him, but every time I'd go and say hello, he says, Louis, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
 Didn't you she used to play would you what sport did you play growing up?
1
SPEAKER_00
Where did you go to school again?
1
SPEAKER_00
So he could have a conversation with you and speak conversationally
1
SPEAKER_00
 but it was the same story over and over again.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'm needing to remind my father for 17 years of the memory loss that he had.
1
SPEAKER_00
Show him photos of him with me, taking photos of me playing sports.
1
SPEAKER_00
The second half of my life with him was beautiful.
1
SPEAKER_00
He showed up, he transformed, he overcame a lot of the anger and resentment he had.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I had two different lives with him.
1
SPEAKER_00
When I was 13 before,
1
SPEAKER_00
 I had some love, some scary with him.
1
SPEAKER_00
Then after 13, it was like this incredible friendship.
1
SPEAKER_00
So it's like I lost my dad, but he was physically here.
1
SPEAKER_00
And every year there was some type of health scare.
1
SPEAKER_00
He had a couple strokes, a heart attack, he had multiple surgeries from the accident, just the complications from the accident.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so every year I didn't know if he was gonna survive or not.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And it was always, is it gonna happen this year?
1
SPEAKER_00
Okay, he's in the hospital now, is he gonna make it?
1
SPEAKER_00
Do I need to be there?
1
SPEAKER_00
In this 17 year cycle of learning to accept something and doing my best to be okay with it.
1
SPEAKER_00
And accepting and loving where it's at.
1
SPEAKER_00
So for me, it was 17 years of, I wouldn't say numbing, but it was acceptance and just managing it the best I could.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then when he passed in February, a couple months ago,
1
SPEAKER_00
 I mean just full circle, kind of like going back 17 years ago and reliving that and then reliving my whole childhood and allowing myself to have a full range of emotions.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think it's beautiful because...
1
SPEAKER_04
 Do you feel like this time, actually, you can fully grieve?
1
SPEAKER_00
I feel like I can.
1
SPEAKER_04
See, this is ambiguous loss, what you just described.
1
SPEAKER_04
Can't grieve, can't mourn, because he's there, but he's not there.
1
SPEAKER_04
And this one gives it... Now you can experience the full range.
1
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
1
SPEAKER_00
I didn't feel like I could.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I feel like I have a more spiritual connection to him now than in the last 17 years.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, every night I'm...
1
SPEAKER_00
 connecting with him in my own way in my little meditation room and you know throughout every the days there are things that come up where I feel the spiritual presence and it's it's a beautiful it's sad it's beautiful it's emotional it's it's a wide range of emotions and you know there's a lot of sadness I have because I wish it wasn't that way but I also relief
1
SPEAKER_00
 I have some relief and I'm also doing my best to create meaning from the whole thing.
1
SPEAKER_00
So that it's not just this thing I'm frustrated with constantly, but like, you know what?
1
SPEAKER_00
I probably wouldn't be doing this without that pain and sadness and loss.
1
SPEAKER_00
I wouldn't be a curious, hungry, I wouldn't have been as resourceful if I had him there.
1
SPEAKER_00
 I've been crying a lot and it's been beautiful to have a safe environment in my relationship with someone who allows that because I think that's hard for some people to allow that especially for men to be able to express their full range of emotions and for their partner to feel safe with that too.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I feel very grateful.
1
SPEAKER_00
 It hasn't been fun but it's also been allowing me to have like peace with it.
1
SPEAKER_04
It's an amazing thing that if you ask people when's the last time you laughed, nobody has to justify laughing.
1
SPEAKER_00
But crying...
1
SPEAKER_04
 But crying, people have to justify it.
1
SPEAKER_04
They have to- It's interesting you ask that.
1
SPEAKER_04
I mean, it is the absolute natural emotion to feel in sadness, in grief, in loss.
1
SPEAKER_02
What man, woman, they, them, whoever.
1
SPEAKER_00
I had a woman on two days ago who hasn't cried in years.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I had a man on yesterday who hasn't cried in, I think, 10 or 12 years.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And it's interesting.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's like there's something there, I think, to be able to have the full range.
1
SPEAKER_00
Not saying you need to cry all day long or something, but allowing yourselves to feel.
1
SPEAKER_00
But that's probably for a whole nother conversation.
1
SPEAKER_04
I mean, I would say that it's hard for people.
1
SPEAKER_04
 to really fully say yes if you can't fully say no.
1
SPEAKER_04
And it is hard for people to fully laugh if you can't also cry.
1
SPEAKER_04
If something is funny, you automatically do this.
1
SPEAKER_04
If something is sad, the fact that you stay like that,
2
SPEAKER_01
 or that you repress it, or that you hold it in, or that you don't even notice it, or that the thing is coming down your face and you don't even realize.
2
SPEAKER_01
I've had people tear in my office while they say I never cry.
2
SPEAKER_00
What does that mean when someone isn't able to fully laugh or fully cry?
2
SPEAKER_01
 What would it be like if a person comes into this world and doesn't scream?
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, if a baby doesn't scream when they come out, you think they're death at birth.
2
SPEAKER_01
What is it like when people make love and make no noise?
2
SPEAKER_01
When it's impossible, I mean, you're a sports person, you know that if you lift something, you make noises.
2
SPEAKER_00
You scream, you grunt.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know, the voice is, it's just, what does it mean when this whole thing is closed off?
2
SPEAKER_00
 There's something inside that's missing or dead or trapped.
2
SPEAKER_01
Or trapped.
2
SPEAKER_01
Or was shoved down or can't come out.
2
SPEAKER_01
But for sure it is a blockage.
2
SPEAKER_00
 We've got another session we're gonna have to do, because I'm feeling the time, and I want to be respectful of what you have next after this, but I could talk to you for hours.
2
SPEAKER_00
This game is a lot of fun.
2
SPEAKER_00
Where Should We Begin?
2
SPEAKER_00
A Game of Stories by Esther Perel.
2
SPEAKER_00
So make sure you guys get this, get a few for your friends, have it on your coffee table.
2
SPEAKER_00
 Wedding season, graduation, schools, parties, births, all these things are happening now.
2
SPEAKER_00
So this is a way for you to connect.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think this is brilliant because I don't think most people have these type of intimate conversations.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is something that I live by.
2
SPEAKER_01
It's as intimate as you want, by the way.
2
SPEAKER_01
You can stay perfectly light and fun.
2
SPEAKER_00
You can just do sexual fun talk and you can go deeper and all these different things.
2
SPEAKER_01
Indeed.
2
SPEAKER_00
 So get the game.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's going to be powerful for you.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I think the world is craving connection and conversations in this way.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know what I was thinking?
2
SPEAKER_01
If people want to have an opportunity to have a conversation like we have, we're casting for housework.
2
SPEAKER_01
 Yes.
2
SPEAKER_01
For the work-related podcast.
2
SPEAKER_01
So they're live.
2
SPEAKER_00
Where can they go to do that?
2
SPEAKER_01
EstherPerel.com slash podcast.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
There's a casting on there.
2
SPEAKER_00
There's a casting on there.
2
SPEAKER_00
What do they get if they're selected?
2
SPEAKER_01
A three-hour session with me recorded anonymously.
2
SPEAKER_00
 So they don't say their names or, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
No, all identifiable features are removed so that it becomes a conversation for all of us.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's sacred, yeah, still.
2
SPEAKER_00
They get a free session.
2
SPEAKER_00
You're in high demand.
2
SPEAKER_00
Your wait list is like three years, so that's a big deal.
2
SPEAKER_00
So if they go to answerproud.com slash podcast, they can apply for that to see if they can get a session from you.
2
SPEAKER_01
If you wanna work on a relationship issue that pertains to work.
2
SPEAKER_01
 And the fascinating thing is that it seems that people have a harder time talking about their romantic relationship than about work.
2
SPEAKER_00
Why is that?
2
SPEAKER_01
That's for when I come back.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so many topics for the next conversation.
2
SPEAKER_00
Excited, we've got this, we've got narcissism, we've got the trapped emotions of not crying, all these things.
2
SPEAKER_00
They can go to game.esterperel.com to get this game, Where Shall We Begin?
2
SPEAKER_00
I recommend you guys getting it.
2
SPEAKER_00
 Esther Perel, everywhere on social media.
2
SPEAKER_00
Where are you spending the most time these days on social media?
2
SPEAKER_00
Where should they, is it Instagram or Instagram?
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, cool.
2
SPEAKER_00
So we'll go there, and also your two podcasts.
2
SPEAKER_00
Make sure you guys subscribe, both on Spotify, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
 Yes, where should we begin is life-changing if you want to master your relationships you're gonna hear so many crazy fascinating stories about Life couples therapy, it's it's fascinating.
2
SPEAKER_00
You've done how many seasons now two three now six six
2
SPEAKER_00
 I've only heard the first two, so I need to get caught up.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so six episodes, six seasons of that, and then you've got How's Work, which is all about work dynamics.
2
SPEAKER_00
You've got some fascinating stories there, so I'm very excited about those.
2
SPEAKER_00
Make sure you guys subscribe.
2
SPEAKER_00
Get the book, two books you have, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Mating in Captivity.
2
SPEAKER_00
Mating in Captivity.
2
SPEAKER_01
The State of Affairs.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes, get those books.
2
SPEAKER_00
We'll link all that stuff up as well.
2
SPEAKER_00
Two final questions for you that I've asked you before.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is your fourth time on, but I want to see if it's changed after the pandemic.
2
SPEAKER_00
 Imagine it's your last day on earth many years away, but you get to live as long as you want to live And you've gotten gotten rid of dread in your life, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
So you've got no more dread But for whatever reason it's the last day for you many years away and You've got to take everything with you that you've created or we don't have access to the games the books the podcast anymore for whatever reason But you get to leave behind three lessons to the world three truths that you would share and this is all we would have What would those three lessons be for you?
2
SPEAKER_01
 The quality of your relationships determines the quality of your lives.
2
SPEAKER_01
When people tell me, you've changed my life, when people stop me on the street to talk about the podcast all over the world, but what they say is,
2
SPEAKER_01
 You changed my life, you accompanied me through my relationship, my divorce, my affair.
2
SPEAKER_01
I just feel like I have a reason to be here.
2
SPEAKER_01
It's a tremendous affirmation.
2
SPEAKER_01
It's what I've done for others, what it means for them to have been in conversation with me.
2
SPEAKER_01
 And this is true for my friends.
2
SPEAKER_01
This is true for my patients or for the people who listen.
2
SPEAKER_01
So what I take with me is the people who would tell me what my presence has meant in their life.
2
SPEAKER_01
And the third one is I live with three men, my husband and my two sons.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I really, if I go, I want them to
2
SPEAKER_01
 take all the love, the joy, the fun, the laughter that we have experienced together and go and experience it with other women.
2
SPEAKER_01
They happen to be into women, so they should all go to other women.
2
SPEAKER_01
That I will continue to live in them through the relationships that they will have with others.
2
SPEAKER_01
Wow, that's beautiful.
2
SPEAKER_00
 I want to acknowledge you Esther for the way you continually show up in this world because I think I've known you for like six, seven, eight years and the conversations we have here and off of the podcast are always so inspiring to me and also to so many people that watch and listen.
2
SPEAKER_00
 And you're amazing at what you do and you help so many people, so I really acknowledge you for consistently living a life of service to help people on the thing that is the most important, which is the quality of their relationships.
2
SPEAKER_00
The relationships with others and work, intimacy, and with themselves.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I really appreciate you and acknowledge you for giving us the wisdom and advice we need to help mend these relationships.
2
SPEAKER_00
My final question is what's your definition of greatness?
2
SPEAKER_01
 I would love to hear what a thousand people must have defined this for you.
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SPEAKER_01
And I'm curious what I answered on other topics about this one.
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I think that I like the sentence from my friend Terry Weil, who you should have on the podcast, and who will talk to you about narcissism and grandiosity in people.
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 On the other side of grandiosity, you know, it would be a great conversation to have with you about grandiosity, but greatness is when you can see yourself as a flawed individual and still hold yourself in high regard.
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I don't think I've even shared that before.
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If you know that you are imperfect.
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 you are actually not that great.
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You're great, but not the greatest.
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And you can still hold yourself in high regard.
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Then I think you are great.
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That's true.
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Thank you so much.
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Appreciate you.
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Appreciate you.
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 Thank you so much for listening.
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I hope you enjoyed today's episode and inspired you on your journey towards greatness.
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Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links.
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And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple podcasts as well.
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 I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most.
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And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.
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And now it's time to go out there and do something great.