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The following podcast is a Dear Media production.
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This episode is brought to you by The Skinny Confidential and Nordstrom s.
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That is right.
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You guys, The Skinny Confidential is available in Nordstrom s.
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You can now go shop all 93 U.S.
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Nordstrom locations and you can go online.
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So you can go online at Nordstrom s, you can pick up everything you need from the Skinny Confidential for gifts, for holiday, for yourself, or you can go in stores and actually shop the product in person, which is so amazing because Nordstrom s hits all the spots.
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It s nostalgic, it s warm, it s fuzzy, but it s also fresh and youthful and on the pulse
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For me, it s one of my favorite department stores.
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It s like very close to my heart.
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It s where my mom used to take me when I was a little girl to go back to school shopping.
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And I think the synergy between Nordstrom s and the Skinny Confidential is just a match made in heaven.
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Like the tools are meant to be in their beauty department.
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So go shop on 93 Nordstrom locations or online at nordstroms.com and you can search the Skinny Confidential.
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She s a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire.
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Fantastic.
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And he s a serial entrepreneur.
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A very smart cookie.
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And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostick are bringing you along for the ride.
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Get ready for some major realness.
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Welcome to The Skinny Confidential, him and her.
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One of my favorite quotes from our book is, the best entrepreneurs have a microscope in one eye and a telescope in the other eye.
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And you get the microscope in both eyes, and you forget about the telescope, and it s kind of like the little wave coming behind you, and then there s this tidal wave that wipes you out.
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Because like, if you re in an industry where Procter & Gamble and Consumer or Amazon can compete with you, I mean, that is the tidal wave.
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They see something they like, foom.
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They throw 100x the money at it, and even if they don t do it nearly as well, could be out of business the next day.
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Welcome back, everybody.
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Welcome to the Skinny Confidential Him and Her Show.
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Today, we have a hell of an episode for you with our friend, Kourtney Ream.
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For those of you who are unfamiliar with who Kourtney is, Kourtney is the co-founder and managing partner of M13.
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Today, the fund has over a billion under management.
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To give you an idea of some of the early investments that Kourtney and M13 identified, they re in ClassPass, they re in Ring, they re in Coinbase, which she talks about, they re in Ampla, Canvas, many businesses that have gone on to do incredible things
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And this conversation doesn t have just information for investors.
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Courtney joins us today to talk about all things entrepreneurship, investing, how to grow as both a business owner and an investor, how to grow as a person.
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He also gives us tips on what makes a great company and the common denominators for successful people, owner and investors.
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I guarantee in this episode there is something that anyone listening can apply to their own life.
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Like I said, we talk on so many different things on how to be successful, how we started, what confidence looks like, how to use your weaknesses to your advantage, how to grow a company sustainably, what not to do when starting a company, the importance of persistence, and so much more.
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We could have gone on and on with Courtney.
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He was a phenomenal guest and a total fountain of knowledge.
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Courtney, come back anytime.
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With that, Courtney Rehm, welcome to The Skinny Confidential, him and her show.
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This is the skinny confidential him and her.
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So Courtney, one of the best things about that I ve discovered doing this show is we get to like, it s really strange how we get connected with people.
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In a former life, I would have somehow tried to cold pitch you and got it in front of M13.
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But what happens is I have someone like Brooke Burke on the show who has nothing to do with any of this, and she connects us over text.
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And I always find it interesting when people ask about doing podcasts.
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I say, listen, it s like the best hack to meet and network with people.
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And it s different than going to someone like yourself and say, hey, let me pick your brain over coffee, or let me get a dinner.
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But if I say, hey, come on and talk about whatever you want to talk about,
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for an hour and a half, it s an easy yes.
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So what do you want to talk about?
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And instead, the punchline is I kind of like cold pitched you through a friend.
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But it s a real hack.
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Exactly.
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I got you to cold pitch me.
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Exactly.
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I want to talk about all of it.
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I want to talk.
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We can talk about business pleasure and talk about the state of the tech world.
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You know what we re doing to optimize all of ourselves.
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Anything.
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What were you like as a little boy?
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I m the oldest.
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So I think I was was and still I m kind of the protector.
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I think
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My dad used to always say, when Courtney s really into something, watch out.
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When Courtney s not into something, watch out.
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But in a bad way, you know, if I wasn t into something, I was just kind of piano lessons fall by the wayside.
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Took like five years of lessons, couldn t even play anything now.
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But for the things I was kind of passionate about, I was usually pretty, pretty immersive.
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What were those things?
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Sports were kind of the first ones, although, you know, even my best sports, which ended up being soccer, which I played in college and almost kind of gave it a world to play after.
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I didn t even start playing until like about nine, which was, which would be really late for, for now, but sports once I found it, but I always just love kind of being like outside in nature, running around.
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I mean, what your brother and you have built is incredible.
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I just am fascinated by the way your parents raised both of you.
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And we were just talking off air about page and Blake of aviator nation and Tom s shoes.
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That same thing there.
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I m just so fascinated with how their parents raised them too, because you guys are both so incredibly successful.
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When you look back at your childhood, is there something that you can pinpoint now that you think your parents did really right?
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Well, let me also just say, as I said off air, Blake is a really old friend of mine.
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I know Paige and I ve spent a lot of time with Blake s parents.
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There s only a couple people that remind me of my mom more than Blake s mom.
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So you are, you re a soothsayer.
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There s a reason why they say this about you.
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I need to get some tips from my kids.
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We ask these people, we say, what the hell is a breakfast cereal?
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My parents are just, they re both Midwesterners through and through, just super principled people.
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Stuff that my dad used to do that I tell myself I d never do, I now do.
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he s very much about value.
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So I m the person that could spend seemingly an exorbitant amount of money, not think twice.
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And then I m arguing about $7 because it clearly wasn t $7 of value.
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And it s things now that seem differently as you re older, but like,
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They were not environmentalists the way we call environmentalists now.
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But they were really big on, turn off the lights when you leave the house.
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Don t stand there with the refrigerator door open.
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Just a lot of those things of what affects one directly affects everyone else indirectly.
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And so my grandparents and beyond were all
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very rich in terms of education and creating opportunity and maybe not money so much, but just incredible people and all did really unique things.
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I had a governor of Michigan in my family, Tree, the first private practice in Michigan, the first female congresswoman in Illinois.
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And so
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I say that all because they were just very principled people and I had this amazing upbringing where I grew up in a town mostly outside Chicago, 900 people on a dirt road, couldn t see my closest neighbor, but you go 10 minutes, you re at the time second or third biggest mall in Illinois, 10 more minutes, you re at a city that s the second biggest city in Illinois outside Chicago, 15 more minutes and you re in downtown Chicago.
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So I had this great mix of kind of like country and city and I think that along with just incredible parents was a big part of it.
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I want to talk about your dad a little bit, because I know, listen, people have close relations with their dad, but it seems like you had an extremely close relationship with your dad.
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And I m sorry to hear about his passing, obviously.
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What are some of the things that you look back on that he taught you that you have applied to your career and your life?
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Because it seems like it was an incredibly close relationship.
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Yeah, I know you guys are going to make me cry this early, but he s just one of those people that s a real strong leader, real patriarch in the truest sense, but in a way that until he was gone you didn t realize all the other things he kind of did.
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I just had a great
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he did everything to make sure we had every opportunity.
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And we didn t start out very wealthy, although by the time he passed away, he had done really well, but that s over a 30, 40 year period.
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So it s not where you start, it s where you end.
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But just like a person of incredible integrity and a real family man, when I, I m sure you guys are seeing with your own kids now, I mean, sports games in high school, I went to like a Chicago public school,
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Parents would say above average, but I ll say a little bit above average Chicago Public School.
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Sports games start at 3, 4 o clock.
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Didn t miss a single one.
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It s just now that I see who did stuff like that and ran a large company, just incredible, but never talked about it, never made a big deal.
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I could tell you so many stories, but here s one that kind of symbolizes my dad.
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Through a weird convergence of factors, a company that he worked for became a corporate sponsor of the Bulls in 1984.
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Worst team in the league.
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A funny thing happened in 1985, they drafted Michael Jordan.
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The rest is kind of history, but it took a bunch of years.
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So this marketing partnership, he was working for an industrials company.
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This is pre-internet, so people would see a banner that says McDonald s, or go to Payless Shoes at the time, when they saw this company called Interlake, nobody would know what it is, and no one had a way to look it up.
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But they got these four courtside tickets to the Bulls, so that company got sold.
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My dad somehow managed to take the courtside tickets with him,
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And so then he controlled him as opposed to the company.
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And we ve got to go to like every Bulls final with Michael Jordan, but there s four seats, five people in my family.
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My dad would take us to the, and my dad played college basketball and almost played in the NBA until he had an injury, but all state basketball player, favorite sport by a long shot.
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He, for some of the biggest games, would drive us to the stadium.
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Chicago stadium s not in a very nice neighborhood, drop us off.
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Go sit in the car with the car running, doors locked, read newspapers for three hours and come pick us up.
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Like that s the kind of person my dad was.
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If you don t do that for me and my kids, I don t want you.
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You know, because listen, we re going to talk about a lot of the business success and all of all of that.
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But I think, you know, I ve met a lot of successful people doing the show and then known successful people as well.
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And I always think it s a tragedy when their biggest accolade is the business stuff.
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And I think like
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now that I m a new father, the goal over time, like when I m gone, is to have my children talk about me the same way.
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I think a lot of people don t have that relationship, and I think they lose sight sometimes over what s really important, if that makes sense.
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Yeah.
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And I think we could have a whole podcast, I m sure, on
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a term like self-made and people are like, are you self-made?
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I m like, no, but not to discredit anyone, but I think almost nobody is self-made in the sense that you ve had influences and for sure people have come from more adverse circumstances than I have, but they somehow had someone or some things or even a role model of like negative role modeling.
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that helped them, you know, become who they are.
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And so there s levels to it.
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But I think like, even if people didn t come from money, they, you are not self-made if you came from a family rich in values and character and love and all that other stuff.
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When you look back now, are there certain moments in time that you could tell when you were little, that you were going to be an investor?
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Like, are there little things that you did that have led up to this when you were young or a teenager?
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Well, I consider myself very much kind of an entrepreneur and investor.
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We ve started a bunch of things as well.
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And so I think
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Being able to empathize with that entrepreneurial journey kind of has made me a better investor.
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But I think I m someone that was just always interested in how things worked.
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And when I grew up, it was like, what do you want to be?
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Like one thing, period.
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And I remember actually, you know, I went to Columbia uptown here.
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The college counselor senior year was like, the average person graduating your year is going to have 10 different jobs and five different careers, however they define that.
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And it must be double that now for people graduating.
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But I was like, oh wow, that sounds great because I love the diversity.
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I love kind of working on multiple things and multiple projects.
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So I think that s a big part of investing or starting things is being able to handle that and being curious how things work.
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What was your first entrepreneurial journey?
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Like what was the first thing you did?
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It s a story for over a drink, pun intended, but my brother and I both went to Columbia, both worked at Goldman Sachs doing investment banking, and then we left to be entrepreneurs, which doesn t sound so crazy, but in 2007,
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only people that I knew working at Goldman who left to do something other than hedge fund or private equity.
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We kind of had this idea of creating a better way to drink.
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We were at the time, you know, working long hours, but still trying to be healthy.
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And then we re just ravaging our bodies drinking Red Bull vodkas, Grey Goose sodas, you name it.
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And we said, let s try and create a better way to drink as a product in the bottle and as a company.
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So we created the first, we ll call it kind of a sustainable and organic vodka alternative called Vive.
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I remember that very well.
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The bottle was so, is so beautiful.
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It was like a matte, like almost crystal.
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It s kind of like a matte frost.
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Matte frost.
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Like everyone does their cars in these wraps now, but it was like a matte frost.
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It was so chic and it did make drinking feel healthy, which is exactly what you set out to do.
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That s so crazy.
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So what did that journey with that look like?
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Well, I mean, it started the smallest of the small, you know, if there s ever an industry where talk about like legacy or, Oh, I have a friend in it or my, my dad or mom s in or whatever the case may be.
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There are not many people that go into spirits without having some, some hookup or preconceived notion.
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We just had like Google and some hustle.
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So we started it from scratch.
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We didn t know any distributors, didn t know where to find one.
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And by law, alcohol has a,
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It goes back to prohibition called the three-tier system.
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You have to work through a distributor.
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You can t direct sell the way you can other snack products or non-alcoholic beverage.
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So we self-distributed at the back of a Prius in Los Angeles.
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door to door guerrilla warfare to all the coolest accounts at the time.
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This is like even predating like a Soho house, but clubs that don t exist anymore and eventually got it into a lot of them and you know, open once because you literally have to open state by state and you name it.
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Within three years we got national distribution.
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We had fun partnerships like we were the official cocktail of Virgin American Airlines.
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We were Disney s bestselling cocktail.
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Eventually got to about a million bottles a year before we exited, but
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Even to this day, 15 years later, there is no industry that I think is harder because there s so little tech, there s so much regulation.
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I knew where every bottle was buried just about, so to speak, which is both rewarding and a lot of work.
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You know what s a hard industry?
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Sex.
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No, no, my friend, my friend has a sex company and it s, it s, it s a hard industry like alcohol.
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It s what you re saying.
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There s so much regulation around how you can post it online.
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Yeah.
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We have a company we incubated with Procter and Gamble around menopause called Kindra and this is menopause, not even sex.
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I couldn t tell you the specifics, but I know that they ve been really frustrating because they re advertising habitually is taken down.
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We were talking about menopause, not, not, you know, vaginal dryness, but to help people, not anything sexual.
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I mean, it s important though, to have these conversations because if people are trying to start businesses, they should know that those two industries are difficult.
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How I wanted to know exactly how long it took you and your brother to sell the company.
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I ll call it about seven and a half, eight years of just a grind and six days, you know, seven days a week of work and six, I used to drink six days a week.
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Like just cause I m a really competitive person.
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I used to like, it logically doesn t make sense, but I would think that my liver could make this successful.
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Not to mention if I went out and, you know, having a meeting or you re hopping around to a couple of accounts, which I love to do, I d be like, oh, there s the Viv guy.
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Have a shot with me.
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Yeah.
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You can t say no.
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I mean, that s like, you know, Santa Claus saying you re not getting a present this year.
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So I had a drink with Evelyn and next thing you know, I was averaging, you know, half dozen drinks a night.
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How do you wake up and be so successful in the morning?
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I m such a pussy with hangovers.
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doing it now, now three drinks and I m basically like that.
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But yeah, I ll never forget when I went to get a physical for the first time in 10 years, the guys, you know, going down the list, do you smoke?
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Do you do whatever?
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Do you drink?
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And he s not even looking up.
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He s just marking the things.
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And do you drink?
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Yes.
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How much per week?
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30 drinks a week.
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He s like, what?
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I m like, actually more like 40.
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He s like, just takes his glasses, lifts them off his head.
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And he goes, son, we ve got to talk.
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And I was like, no, no, no.
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I can explain.
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He goes, I bet you can.
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I was like, no, really?
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Oh my God.
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You know, cause he just thought I was an alcoholic.
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And it was just because you were tasting all the drinks on the job.
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Yeah, for sure.
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Like the time early on I got pulled over and the cop pulls me over and says, is there anything in the car that I should know about?
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I was like, absolutely not.
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I was like, oh.
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actually there s 50 cases of alcohol in the back, but I can explain that because we were self distributing.
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So I was taken into an event.
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I had like 300 bottles of alcohol.
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Did he get mad?
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It s not illegal, but he wanted to be really sure that I was actually taking that to event as opposed to driving to Tijuana.
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I have a question around.
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So you ve obviously, you ve been an entrepreneur, you are an entrepreneur, you ve been an investor.
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There s a lot of young people that listen to this show that are thinking about starting a business.
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When you guys,
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are, and maybe there s some experience as well, when you re speaking to founders or potential founders, what are the character traits that you re looking for?
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Not even the ideas, but just the traits you re looking for in the individual.
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Does Michael Bostic check the boxes?
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Let s hear it.
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He s very handsome, so yes, I mean already, you know, it s just a handsome.
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Handsome, handsome.
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So you re going straight looks.
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He has a great hairline.
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Exactly, straight looks.
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He exudes confidence.
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I think, you know, I m sure lots of people have been on here and given lots of adjectives.
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I would say it starts with
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I do want the person who s relentless within reason because the good founders start off here and then they have the proverbial pivot or whatever.
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Somehow, the best founders always find a way to make lemonade from lemons.
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It might not be the exact lemonade you thought you were going to make or as big a batch of lemonade, so to speak, but they always do something or they keep it alive.
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Sometimes this is a game of ping pong where you just keep the ball on the court for another day and then something good happens.
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So I think that counts for a lot.
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Cause I ve also seen what I consider, what I thought were good founders and what I thought were really good ideas fail because the founder just couldn t will it to like the next bridge or the next milestone.
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So that s really important.
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But I also think if you would ask me this question 10 years ago, I probably would have given a little more of that mold of like the Travis from Uber.
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And now I think it s much more important to almost be like,
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on a good day, how I perceive the president of the United States.
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Of course, you can t know everything that s going on.
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Of course, everyone has blind spots.
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SPEAKER_01
There s only 24 hours in a day.
2
SPEAKER_01
So it s more important to be hyper high EQ and self-aware and go, well, I m good at this, but I know I m not good at this.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I need to fill in these blind spots.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I know I need to have this team around me because no man or woman s an island and no successful company does it on their own now.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I think that s probably the biggest trade I look for is the rest of the team and the self-awareness of that.
2
SPEAKER_02
What s something that you and your brother roll your eyes at when someone leaves the room and you re like, fuck, they did that thing?
2
SPEAKER_02
Like, what s something that people do that like a lot of people do that s like a red flag that you re just like, oh, like when they re like pitching or something?
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, that s so common that you re like, oh, my God, 90 percent of people do this.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s not even just in pitching, but just a red flag, you know, trying to conduct business or just trying to get something done.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think it s when.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know, and I, I used to be someone who had a lot of trouble showing vulnerability, showing weakness.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m really competitive.
2
SPEAKER_01
I like to win.
2
SPEAKER_01
If you like to win and you re used to winning, all you want to do is keep winning.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I think it s the people who never, you know, when you ask like, well, what s not going well or what, if this business isn t successful, what will have you gotten wrong?
2
SPEAKER_01
And you can tell, they just give you the canned answer.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like it s like in the interview, the weakness question, but you give a fake answer that could also be my weakness is perfection.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I m not a good listener.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I think it s those people who aren t being honest about where the struggles are, because smart investors usually hone right in and go, oh, OK, here are the key things.
2
SPEAKER_01
Here are the couple of questions.
2
SPEAKER_01
Where are you at with this?
2
SPEAKER_01
Versus maybe there s some dumb money out there, but the smart money knows what s going on and where the pressure points are.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I think that, and then just for a comical one in the world of AI,
2
SPEAKER_01
We had someone come in a few months ago and we always say at the end of our IC investment committee, we always say, okay, what are you raising?
2
SPEAKER_01
What s a round look like?
2
SPEAKER_01
What s your ideal partner look like?
2
SPEAKER_01
We said, how much are you looking to raise?
2
SPEAKER_01
He said, well, I can t really say that because I m just going to let the market decide if we re an AI company or not and thus how much we re going to raise.
2
SPEAKER_01
A.K.A.
2
SPEAKER_01
if someone s willing to write, you know, value it like three times as much because they think you re an A.I.
2
SPEAKER_01
company will take like three times as much money.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so that that answer was just such a turnoff because it kind of was a little insulting.
2
SPEAKER_01
It was a little bit like he has a new company that barely has any data, which he doesn t even know how to use.
2
SPEAKER_01
But it was the start of that.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, everything was an A.I.
2
SPEAKER_01
company.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, I was going to, I think, for Dear Media, it was the first time I actually went and raised outside venture private equity capital.
2
SPEAKER_00
Everything else I ve ever done has either been friends and family or self-funded, and I did it for a reason.
2
SPEAKER_00
A lot of people have glamorized raising capital, as you know, and it s become the benchmark.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s not like, how s your company doing?
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like, how much have you raised becomes the new badge of honor.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I think, as we ve seen, a lot of companies have struggled and a lot of founders have gotten in trouble with that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Playing the devil s advocate the other side, when do you think it s appropriate for young founders who have an idea to seek out
2
SPEAKER_00
venture capital or private equity, and when do you think it s, hey, maybe hold onto it a little longer and do your own thing without that capital?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and we, I think have a whole chapter about this in the book we wrote, but I think it s changed a little bit, but in general, in this economy, as long as you can go without taking it, great.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, because it must mean you re doing something, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
It must mean you might not be profitable, period, but like unit economics profitable or whatever it may be.
2
SPEAKER_01
So the longer you can do that, the better.
2
SPEAKER_01
It ll force you to dig in, force you to not have the mindset of,
2
SPEAKER_01
Why should I choose A or B?
2
SPEAKER_01
I can do A and B. 
2
SPEAKER_01
We went through this bubble period of, I can do this and that, not make tough trade-offs and tough choices, which is any founder s job.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think as long as you can go, the better.
2
SPEAKER_01
I do generally believe that once you kind of start taking the house s money, aka venture, you want to keep doing it to a point.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m not saying how much, but I m saying at that point you want to keep taking the money.
2
SPEAKER_01
But I also think we re just living in this new era that will hopefully be a more permanent era of people just really trying to figure out how to make sustainable businesses.
2
SPEAKER_01
Because having a billion dollars in revenue is great, but if you re not
2
SPEAKER_01
making any money at a billion dollars in revenue, you might never be meant to, you know, like, I ve been part of companies where we re like, wait, as we are, as it stands right now, every order that we ship, we are going to lose more and more money because shipping costs or whatever else.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s just the economics are getting worse, the more we sell.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, there was a period of time and I think like you see these huge exits.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was just reading something about Dollar Shave and how like the enough times password, I guess they ve
2
SPEAKER_00
Unilever, they kind of classified it as not the greatest acquisition.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s a technical term?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I think so.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think that was a phenomenal business, and I know people that worked in that organization, but I think people read the headlines, billion dollars, and it was just billion dollars at the expense of
2
SPEAKER_00
you know, profitability and efficiency.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I think a lot of founders have glamorized that or also use that as the playbook.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like that s the thing I have to build in order to get the exit.
2
SPEAKER_00
I have to build this massive revenue beast that may not be so efficient, but that s the only way I m going to sell.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, I ll give you a different spin on it, which is that.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, that s, that s public information sold for a billion dollars.
2
SPEAKER_01
I know Michael Dubin, some from LA.
2
SPEAKER_01
Great, great guy.
2
SPEAKER_01
Love, you know, the kind of brand voice he had in doing that, but it s pretty crazy that someone would pay a billion dollars for that.
2
SPEAKER_01
It was, you know, got to about 200 million in revenue.
2
SPEAKER_01
Five times multiple isn t crazy, but what s crazier is if you start knowing that that s the big company s appetite and they re going to do it based on something like that, you re really incentivized to raise as much as you can, as fast as you can, grow it as fast as you can, but in an unsustainable way.
2
SPEAKER_01
So the unit economics weren t actually that great, but if you actually think what Unilever s thinking, they must be thinking this only works if we can push a bunch of other products to this customer, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
They thought butt wipes was going to be a huge thing.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s not a technical term, but that is literally what they thought.
2
SPEAKER_01
Products like that were going to be a huge seller, and they thought that customer was really sticky, and it turned out they weren t.
2
SPEAKER_01
So there s been a bunch of other things like it, but I think you re actually incentivizing clever people like Michael Dubin to create something, reverse engineer it, to sell it to Unilever.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then it s kind of, he definitely won, which is great, but I know him.
2
SPEAKER_01
He s a great guy.
2
SPEAKER_01
he cares about the legacy of something like that just as I do of anything I ve started.
2
SPEAKER_01
And nobody wants to see the value of their company impaired, much less written off.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I ve had companies I ve sold that basically don t exist today because next owner, but it s because they don t know how to make it work if it s not a going concern.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the reason I bring it up is not to comment anything on anybody s personality, but I think a lot of young founders are seeing that model and they re thinking that s what we re doing.
2
SPEAKER_00
And maybe you share this perspective that the market has just changed and I don t think those companies get rewarded in the same kind of way.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so now all of a sudden you have this big machine that s just killing cash all the time and there s no, there s not going to be that Unilever exit event.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
2
SPEAKER_01
I think, you know, our, my, my brother and I s personal journey, again, M13 was kind of, we, we did a bunch of personal
3
SPEAKER_01
investing in consumer-y stuff that kind of morphed into direct-to-consumer, lots of fortuitous exits in those kinds of products that you described.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then we ve kind of moved more into tech for a lot of reasons.
3
SPEAKER_01
One, I think, can make a bigger impact.
3
SPEAKER_01
bigger innovation at scale.
3
SPEAKER_01
But the second part is that I think it s harder to spin up these kind of one-hit wonders.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s the difference between having a product versus a company.
3
SPEAKER_01
We want to be part of life-changing companies or platforms, not just a product.
3
SPEAKER_01
And too many times, it ends up kind of being a single product.
3
SPEAKER_01
And to your point, there s just not a market for them anymore.
3
SPEAKER_00
Investing does at times for a woman feel like a boys club.
3
SPEAKER_00
It does.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s a, there s almost like a, an energy around it that sometimes when I talk to investors, they try to make it more complex than it is to sort of give it a, a superior complex.
3
SPEAKER_00
You and your brother have made it so digestible, which is so amazing.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like you ve really like broken it down.
3
SPEAKER_00
If someone s listening and they feel overwhelmed,
3
SPEAKER_00
by a conversation about an investment?
3
SPEAKER_00
How would you dumb it down in simple terms?
3
SPEAKER_01
It really depends on the product and the industry.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I think we re seeing now, I mean, as I said to my answer before, I would put EQ over IQ in most of these things.
3
SPEAKER_01
I will make a sweeping generalization and say that most of the women that I ve been lucky enough to work for and with have had much higher EQs and brought a lot of those intangibles that now we re seeing are much more tangible.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I would start by just saying, don t let anybody do it to you in the sense that like, I try all the time to go, sorry, what did that mean that you just said?
3
SPEAKER_01
And they re like, wait, wait, you didn t know what that meant?
3
SPEAKER_01
You re so-and-so or you re in this industry?
3
SPEAKER_01
I m like, just didn t know what it meant.
3
SPEAKER_01
Sorry, you re using a lot of jargon there, chief.
3
SPEAKER_01
I went to Chicago public school.
3
SPEAKER_01
Just almost make them feel bad or not feel bad, but just don t be intimidated to just slow it down because
3
SPEAKER_01
Chancellor, whatever they re talking about, that s not the crux of it.
3
SPEAKER_01
The crux of it is something else, and they re just trying to use some flowery prose or some confusing things.
3
SPEAKER_01
Any woman who s in the process of starting something probably understands what s at the core of what she s doing.
3
SPEAKER_00
If someone is listening and they have an idea, you said that they don t need to take an investment if they don t need to, but what if they want an investment?
3
SPEAKER_00
How would you advise them to go about it?
3
SPEAKER_00
Say it s a very simple idea, and they want an investor.
3
SPEAKER_00
What should they do?
3
SPEAKER_01
I think there s nothing, it s just human nature that you like to feel desired or that someone took the time to like find out who you are.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I think just finding out who would be like your dream investor or investors is a great start.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s one thing just to reach out.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s another thing to reach out and say like,
3
SPEAKER_01
I think, you know, I wanted to chat with you because X, Y, and Z or something.
3
SPEAKER_01
I always respond to emails that aren t cold emails or sorry, that are cold emails, but show some level of they know something about me or about M13.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s actually personalized, not the, you know, not the templatized ones because those are out of control.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s out of control.
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, now I was saying, I was with a friend of mine who s who you guys would know is a very prominent entrepreneur.
3
SPEAKER_01
And we were talking about how
3
SPEAKER_01
It went from the cold spam emails that are so hard.
3
SPEAKER_01
It starts out, hey, long time no talk.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m like, do I know this person?
3
SPEAKER_01
And they send you the whole thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
And now they reply on top of it going, hey, just making sure you saw this.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m like, wait, I didn t know you then.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t know you now.
3
SPEAKER_01
And as my friend s showing me the cold email thing, it turns out that another friend of mine was cold emailing him.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was like, oh, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Anyways, but it s crazy just with AI or certain kind of tools.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, you can just, I know how many emails I m getting a day.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like, imagine what Tim Cook s getting.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you have to really do something that stands out.
3
SPEAKER_01
I also think- Wait, can I just, sorry to interrupt, but I ll just say to your question, this is what I joke, but it s really true.
3
SPEAKER_01
We live in a world where it s not hard to find Tim Cook s email.
3
SPEAKER_01
I have Tim Cook s email.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s hard to get Tim Cook to reply.
3
SPEAKER_01
Now I ve only tried like three times, but I m all for three, but it s that it s hard to get Tim Cook to reply.
3
SPEAKER_01
So give him a reason and something specific.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I don t know that you can get Tim Cook to reply, but you have a much better shot.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know what Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger do?
3
SPEAKER_00
They don t have email.
3
SPEAKER_00
You have to hand write them a note in the mail to get their attention to do anything.
3
SPEAKER_00
I went and figured this out.
3
SPEAKER_02
And the note doesn t guarantee the reciprocation.
3
SPEAKER_00
And the note doesn t guarantee, obviously the note, you gotta stand out in the note.
3
SPEAKER_00
Maybe I should drop like my thong underwear in there.
3
SPEAKER_01
That might.
3
SPEAKER_00
To get Charlie s attention.
3
SPEAKER_01
I have an idea that involves your thong underwear.
3
SPEAKER_01
With your permission, Michael, can we go down this rabbit hole?
3
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so.
3
SPEAKER_01
My first boss at Goldman who went on to start a really successful company, he was the type, again, this is kind of on the fringe of email.
3
SPEAKER_01
And he said, yeah, email, we re starting to get a lot of it, whatever.
3
SPEAKER_01
He started a company that targeted like Fortune 100 CEOs.
3
SPEAKER_01
And at the time, FedEx wasn t nearly as ubiquitous.
3
SPEAKER_01
And people being humans and having all kinds of different tastes, he said, I know, no matter who you are, you almost always check your own FedEx.
3
SPEAKER_01
And at the time, it was true, maybe not now.
3
SPEAKER_01
So someone you want to get in touch with, just start sending them one FedEx a week with something in it or a note or whatever.
3
SPEAKER_01
Finally, this guy calls them who you guys would all know and says, okay, I got it.
3
SPEAKER_01
I ve gotten 23 straight FedExes from you.
3
SPEAKER_01
What can I do?
3
SPEAKER_01
And he goes, oh, oh, oh, really?
3
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was just kind of getting warmed up, but great.
3
SPEAKER_01
I d love to chat.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I think, think about that.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t know if Charlie and Warren are a little immune to your thong at this point, but I think the principle holds.
3
SPEAKER_02
If your thong doesn t work, we ll send mine.
3
SPEAKER_00
That could work.
3
SPEAKER_00
We could send both and see what they prefer.
3
SPEAKER_02
We ll see which one they prefer.
3
SPEAKER_02
A little A-B test.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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What are some things that you see with founders that scale and end up running their company into the ground?
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What are some things that they do wrong across the board?
4
SPEAKER_01
It s always the very simple stuff, not treating every dollar like it s your own.
4
SPEAKER_01
As soon as I give you money, it feels different, like you got some allowance that you re going to blow.
4
SPEAKER_01
As I said before, I think it is very much an open-source, crowd-source sort of world.
4
SPEAKER_01
almost unless you re in like deep cyber security or something, there s just not many trade secrets out there, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
Like it s not that hard to rip off Coca-Cola even though it has its ingredient or KFC secret sauce.
4
SPEAKER_01
So too many people kind of end up hoarding their idea and then are shocked when all these people come along because they just didn t see it coming because you need that.
4
SPEAKER_01
One of my favorite quotes from our book is the best entrepreneurs have a microscope in one eye and a telescope in the other eye.
4
SPEAKER_01
And you get the microscope in both eyes and you forget about the telescope.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it s kind of like, there s like the little wave coming behind you.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then there s this tidal wave that wipes you out, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
Cause like, if you re, if you re an industry where Procter and Gamble and consumer or Amazon can compete with you, I mean, that is the tidal wave.
4
SPEAKER_01
They see something they like, they throw a hundred X the money at it.
4
SPEAKER_01
And even if they don t do it nearly as well, you could be out of business next day.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s what seems like to me, the ideas that really work are the ones where someone comes into a category that s already established and they do it better than anyone else.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s, that s kind of what I ve seen.
4
SPEAKER_00
Even like posting, when I post things like a swipe up or a link, the products that people love are the products that it s already an established category and someone does it better.
4
SPEAKER_02
Like floor mats.
4
SPEAKER_00
That guy, WeatherTech.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
I don t want to put him on blast, but yeah, he, he s killed it.
4
SPEAKER_02
I think we re going to this world you mentioned like AI and there s all this technology and you can do things in such an efficient way now that I think sometimes people get lost in like the tools and the gadgets and the gizmos and they don t put nearly enough emphasis on like building a true brand.
4
SPEAKER_02
You know what I mean?
4
SPEAKER_02
It s like just all the stuff.
4
SPEAKER_02
I, you know, we were, we were talking, running to your media and people like, Oh, how do you think AI is going to affect?
4
SPEAKER_02
And I said, listen, it s, it s a tool, but I think it s a mistake for people to think that it will replace human interaction.
4
SPEAKER_02
Right.
4
SPEAKER_02
Or to your point, a cold email with AI, like people, I think there s something inherently in us as humans where like, you need this kind of interaction and you can use the other stuff.
4
SPEAKER_02
But if you just slowly rely on that stuff, I think that s going to carry your business or your idea or your media, whatever it is.
4
SPEAKER_02
I think a lot of people are going to get in a lot of trouble.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I m right there with you on it.
4
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I think in the world of Zoom, I mean, we try to never hire anyone we haven t met, and we ve scaled up pretty fast at M13.
4
SPEAKER_01
But as you guys know, full disclosure, I was a little late today, which I m sorry for.
4
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I had a meeting in deep Brooklyn.
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I had two meetings, but one of them was with a new person we re going to have handle all of our travel.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I just said, he s like, I ve had people for 10 years and named off clients that are, you know, really well-known people.
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SPEAKER_01
They have never even met them.
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SPEAKER_01
I go, that s just not me.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I know there s going to come a moment, probably not too distant future where you re annoyed with me because I m changing flights or I m at an airport.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m calling you at, you know, while you re observing this or that.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I just want you to know, I just want to feel like I ve met you and you re a decent person.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m a decent person.
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And you know, I think it ll just change the dynamic.
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SPEAKER_01
And he, when I came into, he was just like, that means so much that you came to me.
4
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And he lives in like a really unique neighborhood.
4
SPEAKER_01
And,
4
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I think relationships will be at a premium no matter what with AI, maybe not driving your car, but some relationship, especially one that gives off some kind of emotive feeling will be at a big premium.
4
SPEAKER_00
When you work with your brother, what do you guys fight about?
4
SPEAKER_01
Well, you know, when people usually ask what s like working with your brother, I like to invoke the Charles Dickens  Tale of Two Cities, you know, the opening line,   Twas the best of times,   twas the worst of times. 
4
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I m sure you two can relate.
4
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When it s going better, nothing better.
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When it s going worse, nothing worse.
4
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And I mean- I think figuring this out has been easier than us figuring out how to parent.
4
SPEAKER_02
Like figuring, working together.
4
SPEAKER_02
No, not easier, harder.
4
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Harder, okay.
4
SPEAKER_02
Figuring all of this shit out has probably been more beneficial to our marriage than all the other stuff.
4
SPEAKER_02
I feel like this is so hard, as you know.
4
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There s so many emotions and, you know, it s like a dance.
4
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Who s leading?
4
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Who s falling?
4
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My favorite is when he really annoys me.
4
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I go, I m not going to do that work today.
4
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She goes on strike.
4
SPEAKER_02
She ll literally go on strike.
4
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Union strike.
4
SPEAKER_02
You re unionizing.
4
SPEAKER_02
This is not great relationship advice, but I think some of the, I guess, reason that we ve had success in our marriage is I think we ve had to figure out a lot of this really hard shit and the marriage actually becomes the easier place to figure.
4
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So does it make sense?
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
They re not married though.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s different.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
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I ll come back to the married part in one second, but I ll say this.
4
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It s now been 15 years of partnering with my brother.
4
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And as I said, before that, we both went to the same schools and worked at the same places.
4
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So imagine you go from the Goldman Sachs to being business partners in like not only three or four different ventures, but three or four different types of ventures, alcohol, some kind of other stuff that we don t always talk about, but some different brands.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then something like M13, it couldn t be more different.
4
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Luckily our skill sets have translated, but I think
4
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I think it s not about, it s more just like learning each other s hot buttons and being careful when you pull the nuclear card because it s that when we first started, we would read stories about these family businesses that blew up.
4
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We re like, wow, can you believe, like that would never happen to us.
4
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And it never got that close, but it got closer than I ever thought it could get.
4
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in the sense that, you know, our first startup, we had one car that we were sharing in LA where you need a car.
4
SPEAKER_01
We bought our house that was like a little bit or a lot of a stretch for us.
4
SPEAKER_01
So we worked out of our house.
4
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We d have employees come in, like some days I d wake up a little later because we re, you know, doing whatever and employees are sitting at my kitchen counter working.
4
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It s a lot.
4
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Like I could smell what he ate for lunch and that would annoy me on a given day and the whole thing.
4
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But I think now over time,
4
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I think we both know that we re both kind of like to lead, both like to lead, although in different ways.
4
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We re both alpha enough and competitive enough that with M13, I actually think it s that we both find different kind of lanes.
4
SPEAKER_01
And although we partner on a lot of stuff, we kind of do a lot of our own thing.
4
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And then it s nice to actually come back and have a thought partner.
4
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And then truthfully, the best thing is we also have a lot of other incredible, talented people at M13.
4
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In our first companies, we were each other s sounding board, and we were the only ones to go to for X, Y, or Z, even if we weren t the most qualified.
4
SPEAKER_01
Now, there s people that are more qualified in a lot of different disciplines of what we do at M13.
4
SPEAKER_01
So it s great, because we just get more diversity of thought.
4
SPEAKER_01
But it s all those things.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then, as you guys probably know, my brother s now married to Paris Hilton.
4
SPEAKER_01
So that s a whole other dynamic.
4
SPEAKER_01
Who again?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
I watched Paris in Love, so I know all about it.
4
SPEAKER_01
I see me make a couple cameos.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
4
SPEAKER_00
I saw you make a couple cameos to go rewatch it.
4
SPEAKER_00
Now.
4
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One of my questions for you is a big upset because I had officiate a couple of family
5
SPEAKER_00
weddings before that, you know, five star reviews and references available.
5
SPEAKER_00
Paris s family really didn t want me to officiate the wedding.
5
SPEAKER_00
So there s, I was in as few episodes as possible, but there s one where at the bachelor party and we re rolling the craps dice, or no, sorry, roulette.
5
SPEAKER_00
Paris s mom, Kathy, wanted to have a guy named Father Ed.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I m throwing the ball around roulette and we re like, if it s red, Father Ed, if it s red, Father Ed.
5
SPEAKER_02
What was it?
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, the magic of editing, but let s say I didn t officiate the wedding.
5
SPEAKER_00
She wasn t going down one way or another, but you know, double zero all of a sudden.
5
SPEAKER_02
I want to ask you what the best business advice that you received from Paris Hilton, because she is such a mogul with her business and the way she runs it.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s so incredibly impressive.
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, I think it s come out and we ve had, we ve talked about actually her specifically on the show that people don t give her enough credit, especially in the influencer creator space.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like she was one of, if not the originals.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, no, I mean, if you really want to talk to Oliver Ackley, my brother is no better hype man and husband than that.
5
SPEAKER_00
But I think, yeah, you know, everything from obviously someone like Kim Kardashian, who was Paris  friend long before she was Kim K, but she did the first selfie.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I think in some ways social media wouldn t exist without Paris.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s just been really great to watch her evolution as her now brother-in-law because there are some people that are really stuck on their view of her from simple life and 21 years old and at least a good portion of that I think was kind of an act.
5
SPEAKER_00
But now as she s kind of matured into motherhood and being a real entrepreneur, it s impressive to see and it s impressive because she,
5
SPEAKER_00
She just has that it thing, but not like, I m not talking like walking a runway it, but that it thing where, I think her superpower is that she really sees trends before other people, and then is really good at finding out who to partner with.
5
SPEAKER_00
Again, I m sorry I don t have the stats exactly handy, but she sold billions of dollars of her fragrance.
5
SPEAKER_00
Now, she didn t produce it herself, but I mean, one of the more lucrative licensing deals that I ve ever heard of, and she knew exactly who to go to, and figured out a way to be ahead of the curve on things like that, on things like social media.
5
SPEAKER_02
Do you and your brother give her business advice?
5
SPEAKER_00
We do.
5
SPEAKER_00
I d say in the sense that she s had, she kind of went to the school of hard knocks, whatever you want to call it.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like she didn t go to like a Harvard or go to a Columbia or work at a Goldman Sachs.
5
SPEAKER_00
So those are the people, not just Paris, but I find really impressive who weren t classically trained yet.
5
SPEAKER_00
kind of seemingly know everything I know, but they ve kind of done it through the Braille method.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s incredible.
5
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So she s just got a lot of great business instincts.
5
SPEAKER_00
Sometimes we kind of give her a little more of like the academic view of it.
5
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But my brother, truthfully, shout out to my brother because he s done an incredible job of building her media holding company called 1111 Media.
5
SPEAKER_00
because it s really a model.
5
SPEAKER_00
But he really applied a lot of our principles for M13 and other things my brother knew.
5
SPEAKER_00
But my brother s a real incredible strategic mind and a real incredible visionary.
5
SPEAKER_00
So anyone who gets that much of my brother s time is, I think, going to have some good success.
5
SPEAKER_01
I wanted to ask you a question around school, undergrad specifically.
5
SPEAKER_01
I, a little bit different than you, went to the Harvard of the desert, which was the University of Arizona.
5
SPEAKER_01
It was a little bit different.
5
SPEAKER_02
The University of pussy.
5
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A little different degree.
5
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But I, and Lauren and I both on this show have sometimes been critical about taking on debt and going through university if you don t have somebody to maybe help support.
5
SPEAKER_01
And also from my perspective, not to knock Arizona that much, but I,
5
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I felt like I was really kind of more just learning to be independent, being social, having some fun.
5
SPEAKER_01
I didn t, I left and I, one thing I regret is like, man, I should have gone and gone into like computer sciences or finance or something more used.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like I was in like regional development.
5
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I thought I was gonna be in real estate.
5
SPEAKER_01
It was anyways, I m not applying any of it.
5
SPEAKER_01
But from your perspective, I mean you went to two extremely prestigious schools and it sounds like you had a phenomenal education.
5
SPEAKER_01
How do you feel about those programs, and maybe they ve changed a little bit now, and do you think it s for everybody?
5
SPEAKER_01
Do you think people should pursue it, or are there certain people that should not pursue it?
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I mean, the short answer is no, it s not for everyone, for sure.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I think
5
SPEAKER_00
Someone says education s broken.
5
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They re not wrong.
5
SPEAKER_00
One of my, Seth Godin, who I m sure you guys know, the marketer, he loves to say like, oh, you went to two famous schools.
5
SPEAKER_00
He said, I don t know if they re good.
5
SPEAKER_00
I didn t go there, but I hear people say really good things, but I hear them say about other schools.
5
SPEAKER_00
I don t know if you, you went to two really famous schools, maybe not two really good schools.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I think he s at least right to a point.
5
SPEAKER_00
They were good for me.
5
SPEAKER_00
They opened great doors for me.
5
SPEAKER_00
But when I went to Columbia, it was $30,000 a year.
5
SPEAKER_00
Now it s like, I think, almost triple that.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, who can afford that?
5
SPEAKER_00
So I don t think it s for everyone.
5
SPEAKER_00
And my parents were really big believers in education, but also really big believers in it s not kind of like where you are, but what you re doing.
5
SPEAKER_00
Because if you re in Arizona and busting your you-know-what, or Arizona has a great business school, an undergraduate business school, I think there s a lot of
5
SPEAKER_00
differences in how things turn out, but it is one of my real, as I get older, fears for the future of, I ll say, America specifically, because I was just in Cuba where their biggest export is education, doctors and things, because they do free education through the government.
5
SPEAKER_00
We have too big a middle layer here of people going to school because they re supposed to, but then they re going to school and not making the most of it.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s not about are you learning something that s applicable, but it s like are you learning, like I was a philosophy major.
5
SPEAKER_00
I certainly think it taught me, it was one of my majors, philosophy and economics.
5
SPEAKER_00
It taught me an analytical way of thinking that at least made me put together frameworks for how I do like mental models now.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I just don t think people, and yeah, I was in a fraternity and had fun, but I just don t think people are being pushed to do that and they re not graduating.
5
SPEAKER_00
A 22 year old graduating here, I can tell you feels very different than a 22 year old graduating from a place in Europe where it s just a different focus.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I guess the reason I ask is because, and again, not to knock the school, but I just feel like I didn t take anything out of that education that I, outside of just being independent, that I ve applied to anything I ve since done in business.
5
SPEAKER_01
And a lot of what I had to figure out, like you said, is like this Braille method where, you know, I m on Google, I m talking to different people, or I m just learning the hard way.
5
SPEAKER_01
I go back and forth sometimes thinking, man, if I would have had that education, what if I accelerated and missed some of those early mistakes?
5
SPEAKER_01
Or were the early mistakes the things that have now set me up for greater success?
5
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
But it s like, looking back, if it hasn t served you and you ve kind of had to do it all yourself, I m sure there s some lessons there.
5
SPEAKER_00
But I only went to business school because I was sitting at Goldman, and a woman walks in.
5
SPEAKER_00
I can t remember if she was from Bain or McKinsey.
5
SPEAKER_00
She was from a consulting firm.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was kind of on the fence and she said, you know, the way I view it is if you re going to have a 40 year career and I could do something for two years, AKA business school that would enhance the other 38, wouldn t you do it?
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, that sure makes sense.
5
SPEAKER_00
And one of my parents big things was like, you don t have to know what you want to do, but like,
5
SPEAKER_00
Keep your options open.
5
SPEAKER_00
I would hate to see you make a bad decision or series of bad decisions at age 16 or age 18 that you would never get a chance to recover from the rest of your life because you were down a certain track or these doors closed.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so that s something I was really grateful for is optionality and option value.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think the one thing that we try to tell a lot of young people is, to your point, I can t believe how expensive some of these schools are now.
5
SPEAKER_01
And if someone s ambition is like, hey, I want to go and be an influencer, or I want to go and be a creator, I want to start a podcast.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m like, well, maybe you don t need to take on $90,000 a year in debt to do that.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think not enough people talk about the purpose behind taking on that debt or paying for that service.
5
SPEAKER_01
And it s one of these things where I think
5
SPEAKER_01
you re just, let s say, quote unquote, you re supposed to do it, or you have to do it to have success.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I think the times have just changed.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so for sure.
5
SPEAKER_00
I think my corollary, if I was talking to my kids, would be at 17 here, you think you want to be an influencer.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so we forego college.
5
SPEAKER_00
And now you don t want to be, or something happens.
5
SPEAKER_00
And all of a sudden, you might have fewer options.
5
SPEAKER_00
And you might not.
5
SPEAKER_00
But I ve come to believe a lot of the most interesting people I know had really alternative paths on education, might have even been homeschooled.
5
SPEAKER_00
And to your point,
5
SPEAKER_00
Don t get me wrong, Columbia or Harvard or whatever were really hard, but in some ways, my slightly above average Chicago public school was really hard.
5
SPEAKER_00
Not A to Z, but the top 20 people there are all fighting like heck to get out and make something themselves and do something better.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so that was really competitive among those 20 people out of 400 kids because everyone wanted that.
5
SPEAKER_00
So it s just different, but it was the same kind of pressures.
5
SPEAKER_02
Out of all the companies that you ve invested in personally and with M13, which one has been the most successful and why?
5
SPEAKER_02
And maybe like you could talk about exits too.
6
SPEAKER_01
Hot water question.
6
SPEAKER_02
I want to know which is the best one where you re like, oh my God, this is amazing.
6
SPEAKER_00
I guess not to be too pedantic, but it depends on how you define best.
6
SPEAKER_00
My best personal... What you think is best.
6
SPEAKER_00
Well, so the one, I ll give you a couple answers if I may.
6
SPEAKER_00
The one that I made the biggest multiple on was, I made a, we made, my brother and I, before we started calling it M13, made a thousand times our money on Coinbase.
6
SPEAKER_00
And that is not playing Bitcoin.
6
SPEAKER_00
I mean, like we invested in the series A of Coinbase at a 15 million valuation.
6
SPEAKER_00
So a thousand X on that.
6
SPEAKER_00
So if you put in.
6
SPEAKER_00
$10,000, you d make $10 million.
6
SPEAKER_00
That ll never happen again for a myriad of reasons.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s a great question.
6
SPEAKER_00
I m trying to think what company we ve invested in has had the biggest exit.
6
SPEAKER_00
We ve been in companies early like Pinterest and Lyft and Ring the Video Doorbell, but it s such a function of how much capital goes in.
6
SPEAKER_00
And honestly, it s about getting out at the right time.
6
SPEAKER_00
Because we ve had some now, like Lyft, we did very, very well on Lyft.
6
SPEAKER_00
The market cap is not reflective of that, but I ve sold all my shares in Lyft years and years ago.
6
SPEAKER_00
But I think it s, so I think it s a lot about that in terms of, can I give you an answer of one that I think has tons of potential now?
6
SPEAKER_00
It s the one sitting right here in the picture called Lifeforce, which is a kind of a vitality business we started about 18 months ago with Tony Robbins, who s a old friend, and we d invested in some stuff together.
6
SPEAKER_00
he said, I want to do something with you, call your shot.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, that s pretty cool.
6
SPEAKER_00
Tony Robbins said, he ll kind of do anything that I come up with.
6
SPEAKER_02
That s pretty fucking cool.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
That was, that was, that was one of those moments of like, okay, maybe I ve made it when Tony Robbins says you re my guy for like anything that s has a tech angle and a consumer focus.
6
SPEAKER_00
We went back and forth on some ideas.
6
SPEAKER_00
Couldn t quite figure it out.
6
SPEAKER_00
I knew had this book coming out called life force all about kind of his, his latest and greatest longevity things, but really more like,
6
SPEAKER_00
vitality meaning feeling better today so you can hopefully live longer tomorrow because there s a I think a big distinction and I was like Tony this is this is the one that we should we should do because can we take that 1% if you will concierge experience medical experience that we ve all been lucky enough to have or and
6
SPEAKER_00
then take that to like a much broader set of the population, not the other 99% yet, but like the next 10% and the next 10%.
6
SPEAKER_00
So I know you guys have had like a Peter Attia on, like, can we take, I don t even know if Peter Attia talks about what he charges for his concierge practice, but so with something like life force, I just feel like
6
SPEAKER_00
can we just so many people don t have access to good food and good healthcare or just like knowing what, what the best practices are.
6
SPEAKER_00
And so luckily I m not doing most things for money these days.
6
SPEAKER_00
Tony Robbins certainly isn t or Peter Diamandis.
6
SPEAKER_00
And we just said, wouldn t it be great to do something where maybe someday, you know, tens of thousands and eventually hundreds of thousands and eventually millions of people would have access to like the best parts of a concierge experience where it s everything from,
6
SPEAKER_00
you know, checking your biomarkers to telehealth, to certain supplements we might prescribe and performance health coaches.
6
SPEAKER_00
And we kind of build from that, but it s just about building like a quarterback of your health in your pocket and just kind of giving you that glide path because most people just don t know where to start.
6
SPEAKER_00
And we ve all, I m guessing most people we ve had on are lucky enough to know how to do that.
6
SPEAKER_00
But if you don t know where to start, like it just would feel great to feel like we put someone on that path.
6
SPEAKER_00
So I think those kinds of companies can be huge.
6
SPEAKER_02
You said you re not doing things for money.
6
SPEAKER_02
So what are you doing things for now?
6
SPEAKER_02
When you wake up in the morning, what was that shift?
6
SPEAKER_02
Like, what s your reason?
6
SPEAKER_00
Well, I ll kind of give you an M13 answer, my personal answer.
6
SPEAKER_00
My personal answer is I feel like for
6
SPEAKER_00
two, two and a half decades, maybe my whole life, I did all the things that other people wanted me to do to either have a chance to do whatever I want to do or to be successful, not even just as a human being, but be successful with a capital S and successful in terms of money, which is the easiest measuring stick.
6
SPEAKER_00
And it s only the last couple of years I got to a point where it s like,
6
SPEAKER_00
I have more money than I ever thought I would have, so I feel really lucky.
6
SPEAKER_00
I don t live a crazy life.
6
SPEAKER_00
My brother s spending outpaces mine a little.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s not about having a bigger this or a better that.
6
SPEAKER_00
I m really lucky that I don t long for things that I could want.
6
SPEAKER_00
But I, and conversely for M13, I don t think the world needs another venture capital firm, but they need another, we think they need another kind of venture capital firm doing things differently, whether it s the things we invest in or how we re resourced, which I can go into.
6
SPEAKER_00
And so we said, wouldn t it be great to do well by doing good, but just really say, Hey, maybe 10 years from now, how venture capital works has kind of evolved or how it adds value.
6
SPEAKER_00
And we were a part of that solution.
6
SPEAKER_00
And so I really want to be at the tip of the spear of
6
SPEAKER_00
big innovation, which I think means for us, it means it kind of has to start with technological innovation, but then always kind of keeping, we love to talk about future of consumer behavior.
6
SPEAKER_00
So everything we focus on has some kind of future element.
6
SPEAKER_00
We invest in the future of health, AKA something like life force, future of money, future of work and the future of commerce.
6
SPEAKER_00
And we think that kind of encompasses all the places that, you know, people are looking and yeah, to me it s about, it s a weird thing to say in my forties, but it s, I really feel like it s about legacy and impact, which is a great place to be.
6
SPEAKER_01
I m sure you guys, have you guys read about the Charles Feeney guy recently?
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
You know, we were skiing one time in this place and we met his business partner, silent business partner.
6
SPEAKER_02
When?
6
SPEAKER_01
When we were in Stade.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s kind of like when you guys met me and didn t remember.
6
SPEAKER_01
Remember Tony?
6
SPEAKER_00
When?
6
SPEAKER_00
Tony, Michael and I had been in touch in passing.
6
SPEAKER_00
Tony.
6
SPEAKER_02
Oh, yes.
6
SPEAKER_01
And he told us this story before this, and he gave me a book that Charles Feen wrote.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s called The Billionaire Who Wasn t.
6
SPEAKER_01
I don t know if you ve seen it.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s on my bookcase, and it s got this incredible story of this guy who made all this money, but he basically donated all of it.
6
SPEAKER_00
I just ordered it.
6
SPEAKER_00
I had read an article, so I knew who he was, but he s one of the co-founders of Duty Free.
6
SPEAKER_00
Made seven, eight billion in his lifetime, but then started giving it away while he was still alive.
6
SPEAKER_00
He just passed away recently at 92.
6
SPEAKER_00
And silently, too.
6
SPEAKER_00
Gave away all of it.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, mostly anonymously.
6
SPEAKER_00
flies commercial, lived in a two-bedroom place in New York and rode the subway, which I can relate to.
6
SPEAKER_00
But I mean, how cool is that?
6
SPEAKER_00
It s really cool.
6
SPEAKER_00
To actually see that impact.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s really cool.
6
SPEAKER_01
I have a question, and we re in a completely different lane in conversation, which I feel he did not get enough credit for what he was saying.
6
SPEAKER_01
We had Dan Bilzerian on the show, and he was talking about basically
6
SPEAKER_01
that the things that derive the most happiness for him now is really not the money.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I think he s known and he s created this image as this playboy that s, you know, spending lavish amounts of money and doing crazy things.
6
SPEAKER_01
But you re saying it s like the little things in life that you can, that doesn t cost anything to make them most happy.
6
SPEAKER_01
And a lot of people give them shit like, Oh, easy for you to say you have money.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I m sure people will pull a clip from you saying, okay, easy for you to say in the position you re in.
6
SPEAKER_01
But what are some misconceptions or some things that you thought money would bring
6
SPEAKER_01
that it didn t bring or I guess maybe some thoughts around, you know, once you got, you know, comfortable.
6
SPEAKER_01
Sure.
6
SPEAKER_01
What changed and what didn t?
6
SPEAKER_00
Well, you know, we all have something different tugging inside of us, right?
6
SPEAKER_00
And money doesn t, doesn t solve that.
6
SPEAKER_00
Money doesn t, doesn t guarantee you love all, all the, all those things.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I think
6
SPEAKER_00
For me, I m just one of those person, wherever I put a lot of effort, usually something happens, hopefully good, but something happens and where I don t.
6
SPEAKER_00
If money had been my number one or number two priority for a long time like it had, that part worked.
6
SPEAKER_00
And then other things that were like four or five on my priority list, like starting a family, hasn t happened yet.
6
SPEAKER_00
And it s not that I don t want to make any more money, even though it s not really the focus, but I just realized if I don t flip the priorities, money just has to go much further down the line.
6
SPEAKER_00
Not even money, but just like...
6
SPEAKER_00
anything involving that and I have to put the other you know personal things further up and listen I also want to just say I acknowledge what what people say to Dan because I ve had it said to me like oh easy for you to say and I agree no one should feel bad about their circumstances we ve all listen I ve had a
6
SPEAKER_00
my hardships, but I m not comparing those to anyone else s.
6
SPEAKER_00
But I also think, I also really love, you know, to those who much is given, much is expected.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I own that and I want to, but if I don t, you know, if not me, then who?
6
SPEAKER_00
Like I just sat here and told you, I ve had incredible opportunities and I had, so that s a lot of pressure too, but I want to take that pressure because gosh, like I would be so disappointed in myself for my parents and the incredible job they did if I didn t try and do better.
6
SPEAKER_02
I think a lot of people that say easy for you to say to need to look inward.
6
SPEAKER_02
Well, I think that that s a that s a projection of something that they re insecure about
7
SPEAKER_00
onto someone else.
7
SPEAKER_00
I think that that s something, if someone s saying that, you ve got to sit with yourself and figure out why you re saying that.
7
SPEAKER_01
How do I say this eloquently?
7
SPEAKER_01
I think sometimes they will look at somebody who s reached a certain level in life that is maybe unrelatable to most people.
7
SPEAKER_01
And because it is not relatable anymore, like it s not common, I guess, they will discount the information that s being said or shared.
7
SPEAKER_01
That make sense?
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so when I was listening to Dan and I just was observing the comments come in, I was like, no, there s some value into what he s saying.
7
SPEAKER_01
Cause so many people glamorize and chase dollars and money and think it s going to be the solve to all of their issues and problems.
7
SPEAKER_01
And listen to a point, obviously, you know, if you, if you re struggling to pay rent, you can t buy groceries.
7
SPEAKER_01
Like, you know, money s obviously gonna be helpful, but I think this endless pursuit of just more and more and more.
7
SPEAKER_01
What he was basically saying is at some point, you re going to have extremely diminishing returns if you don t find a greater purpose outside of that pursuit.
7
SPEAKER_02
And it s also, again, easy to say, when you don t have any money, of course you have to prioritize money.
7
SPEAKER_02
But once you make some money, and research shows if you read these happiness indexes, it s like $60,000 a year.
7
SPEAKER_02
Above that, it doesn t bring any more happiness.
7
SPEAKER_02
Now, I don t know all the footnotes of that might not be $60,000 in the US, that might be spread across the world.
7
SPEAKER_02
60,000 U.S.
7
SPEAKER_02
goes a lot further in some parts of the world.
7
SPEAKER_01
Inflation s pretty high right now.
7
SPEAKER_01
Right.
7
SPEAKER_02
But I would say it is, I mean, I think it s, it seems pretty clear.
7
SPEAKER_02
And you go back and read ancient Greek philosophers.
7
SPEAKER_02
I mean, people knew that 2000 years ago, we ve just kind of lost sight of it.
7
SPEAKER_02
But I think for me, I always want to go back to like, if I, if I, if I m going to not make it about money, then, you know, I want to prioritize my time around money.
7
SPEAKER_02
Cause that s, that s the one thing that, you know, we all have in common, right?
7
SPEAKER_02
We all have 24 hours in a day.
7
SPEAKER_02
And so,
7
SPEAKER_02
how we choose to spread this one shot we get at this precious thing matters a lot.
7
SPEAKER_00
Most vitamins are basically candy in disguise.
7
SPEAKER_00
So when I had kids, I knew I had to do my research when it came to the vitamins that I was giving them every single day.
7
SPEAKER_00
So InnerHya, this is pediatrician approved and they re super powered chewable vitamins.
7
SPEAKER_00
They are so good.
7
SPEAKER_00
I ve tried them myself.
7
SPEAKER_00
Most child s vitamins are filled with five grams of sugar, but HIAS have zero sugar and zero gummy junk.
7
SPEAKER_00
So they re so good, but they re not filled with all this nasty crap.
7
SPEAKER_00
HIAS fills in the most common gaps in a modern child s diet.
7
SPEAKER_00
You can expect things like 15 essential vitamins, minerals.
7
SPEAKER_00
They have like vitamin D, B12, C, zinc, folate.
7
SPEAKER_00
And my kids are so into these.
7
SPEAKER_00
They literally say vitamin, vitamin, vitamin every single day.
7
SPEAKER_00
They re obsessed with the pink.
7
SPEAKER_00
And then it s like they go for the green and then the yellow.
7
SPEAKER_00
Of course, you can expect the vitamins to be non-GMO, vegan, dairy-free, allergy-free, gelatin-free, nut-free, and everything else you can imagine.
7
SPEAKER_00
I also just got the probiotics, so I ll give my kids one probiotic and one chewable vitamin in the morning, and we are good to go.
7
SPEAKER_00
They re obsessed.
7
SPEAKER_00
We worked out a special deal with Hya for their best-selling children s vitamin.
7
SPEAKER_00
Receive 50% off your first order.
7
SPEAKER_00
That is insane, 50%.
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SPEAKER_00
To claim this deal, you must go to hyahealth.com slash skinny.
7
SPEAKER_00
This deal is not available on their regular website.
7
SPEAKER_00
You need to go to hyahealth.com
7
SPEAKER_00
Get your kids the full body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults.
7
SPEAKER_00
Wella Professionals New Line Ultimate Repair is the most premium line to date and it was developed with 140 plus years of experience and research to deliver the very best.
7
SPEAKER_00
Miracle Hair Rescue repairs hair in only 90 seconds.
7
SPEAKER_00
The other day I got a blowout.
7
SPEAKER_00
I knew my hair was going to be wet.
7
SPEAKER_00
I brought my Wella Ultimate Hair Repair.
7
SPEAKER_00
So it comes in like a little spray bottle.
7
SPEAKER_00
I put it in my purse.
7
SPEAKER_00
This helps keep my hair healthy when I m using heat products on it.
7
SPEAKER_00
So I was going to get a blowout, obviously the blow dryer.
7
SPEAKER_00
I got the straightener.
7
SPEAKER_00
I got all this heat on the hair and I want something that really can help repair the hair.
7
SPEAKER_00
InterUltimate Repair Miracle Hair Rescue.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s this leave-in spray treatment, and it s designed to work on wet hair.
7
SPEAKER_00
And it works in 90 seconds.
7
SPEAKER_00
And the thing about this is after the blowout, when my hair is blow-dried and straightened, you can visibly tell the difference.
7
SPEAKER_00
It has key ingredients in it like AHA and omega-9, which are supposed to rebuild the hair bonds inside the strands.
7
SPEAKER_00
And it also replenishes the outside barrier of damaged hair.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s absolutely amazing.
7
SPEAKER_00
It has the perfect scent.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s not too strong.
7
SPEAKER_00
It works on all hair textures.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I just think they ve done a really good job of creating a product to help repair your hair.
7
SPEAKER_00
If you want to just like wash your hair at home and then spray it in your hair and put your hair back in a sleek bun, that s really nice, too.
7
SPEAKER_00
I don t rinse it out.
7
SPEAKER_00
I just comb it in, put it in a bun, and I m good to go.
7
SPEAKER_00
You can purchase Ultimate Repair Miracle Hair Rescue at Amazon and Ulta now.
7
SPEAKER_00
Let s talk about Weight Watchers.
7
SPEAKER_00
Weight Watchers is the number one doctor-recommended weight management program and the trusted authority in evidence-based weight health.
7
SPEAKER_00
Beyond the science, joining Weight Watchers means you become part of a powerful, passionate community.
7
SPEAKER_00
They re all about community there.
7
SPEAKER_00
We got to learn all about that when we had the CEO on our podcast.
7
SPEAKER_00
The company s purpose is to always inspire healthy habits and lasting weight loss.
7
SPEAKER_00
So how they do this is they focus on behavior change, nutrition, science, and real connections while never giving up on the food that we all love.
7
SPEAKER_00
Personally, I really love how they ve evolved their approach to weight loss over the years.
7
SPEAKER_00
And they re really like with the times, which I appreciate.
7
SPEAKER_00
Weight Watchers has helped millions of members on their journeys over the years.
7
SPEAKER_00
And recently they ve launched Weight Watchers Clinic, and this provides support to even more people across the weight health spectrum.
7
SPEAKER_00
Most importantly, I think that Weight Watchers knows that weight management is not a one-size-fits-all thing.
7
SPEAKER_00
There are behavioral and biological factors to consider, so they really have a multi-faceted approach when it comes to losing weight.
7
SPEAKER_00
Head to www.com slash TSC to see if you qualify.
7
SPEAKER_00
If you do, use our code TSC25 to get your first month free.
7
SPEAKER_00
Plus, you get $25 off your second month.
7
SPEAKER_00
That s www.com slash TSC.
7
SPEAKER_00
I want to talk about your time, your time management.
7
SPEAKER_00
You re a high performer.
7
SPEAKER_00
How do you manage your time?
7
SPEAKER_00
You ve got a lot going on.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I mean, like I want you to tell me, do you have a color coded Google calendar?
7
SPEAKER_00
Do you wake up at a certain time?
7
SPEAKER_00
Like what are the little things that you do to streamline your day for efficiency?
7
SPEAKER_02
I ve had lots of iterations of how I ve spent my time.
7
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I used to,
7
SPEAKER_02
be really proud of like, go look at my calendar.
7
SPEAKER_02
I still use, I m an Outlook guy and just go, you go find me a white space in there if you want to talk.
7
SPEAKER_02
Right.
7
SPEAKER_02
And, and I used to take a lot of pride in that.
7
SPEAKER_02
Now I think one, I ve definitely become a believer.
7
SPEAKER_02
Have you guys, has anyone ever referenced Paul Graham?
7
SPEAKER_02
So Paul Graham s like a real innovative thinker.
7
SPEAKER_02
I think he started in the tech world.
7
SPEAKER_02
He writes a lot of great thought pieces.
7
SPEAKER_02
So he has one that I love called Maker versus Manager Schedule.
7
SPEAKER_02
And the gist of it is something like this.
7
SPEAKER_02
If you re a manager, you spend all day in meetings.
7
SPEAKER_02
We go from meeting to this or that.
7
SPEAKER_02
And if you re a maker, a creative person, you need to leave lots of blocks during the day to create or to have that creative juice come over you, right?
7
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I love this.
7
SPEAKER_02
And so his whole thing is like, you know, if you re a creator and you have nothing booked for that day, but you have like one meeting with Courtney at one o clock, you wake up in the morning, you re like, oh breakfast, I ll get a little creative.
7
SPEAKER_02
But in the back of your mind, you re like, I have that meeting at one o clock.
7
SPEAKER_02
It s nine o clock, then it s 11, then you go, I gotta get ready for the meeting.
7
SPEAKER_02
We take for granted how much it side swipes a big portion of your day.
7
SPEAKER_02
And so I ve kind of tried, for sure I m a manager, but I also consider myself a maker in some ways and a creative.
7
SPEAKER_02
So what I try and do is a couple days a week, but this is what I try to do, it doesn t always work this way, is especially on the West Coast, because you re always kind of wake up chasing the day, from like the afternoon on, like two, three o clock on, I try not to book anything the rest of the day, so I can like have long blocks where I don t look at my phone or go for a hike by myself or just take time to like think about
7
SPEAKER_02
what s working, what s not, all that.
8
SPEAKER_02
eventually go faster.
8
SPEAKER_02
That s one thing.
8
SPEAKER_02
I, you know, most of my ideas are not my own, but I do read a lot.
8
SPEAKER_02
So I think like, I do like the, how your first, this is easy for me to say without kids, how that first hour or two of your day goes, so to your day goes.
8
SPEAKER_02
So I try to really hard not to schedule meetings before like nine or 10 a.m.
8
SPEAKER_02
So I can get up and like, when you re on the West Coast and I mainly live in LA, I wake up to like a hundred emails.
8
SPEAKER_02
So even just getting through those and figuring out what to look at, what to delegate, what to look at later, how to prioritize it.
8
SPEAKER_02
I mean, that s a real art that I think is one of my superpowers.
8
SPEAKER_02
If I have to, I can go through those 100 emails in 10 minutes, not have read all of them, but at least decided what to do with all of them.
8
SPEAKER_02
And so I like my day to kind of be like the morning, because that is the quietest time, to be like an a la carte mix of those.
8
SPEAKER_02
So I love things that are net, I call it net zero dead time, meaning I m doing something while I do something else that I would have done anyway, so it doesn t cost me any time.
8
SPEAKER_02
Meaning, I go in my infrared sauna for 20 minutes, but I do it while I read some emails, so I m kind of catching up.
8
SPEAKER_02
Do a little cold plunge, do an Andrew Huberman, go and get some light, go for a little walk.
8
SPEAKER_02
I have a pretty extensive menu of things that I do, and depending on the day, I kind of
8
SPEAKER_02
mix it up, a little stretch.
8
SPEAKER_02
I went on a trip with Charity Water, if anyone knows that organization that builds wells and brings clean drinking water.
8
SPEAKER_02
People have never had it.
8
SPEAKER_02
About five years ago in Africa, there was a guy on the trip who runs around everyone going, do you stretch?
8
SPEAKER_02
And everyone s like, why is this guy asking me?
8
SPEAKER_02
five years later.
8
SPEAKER_02
If I, if I do this like five minute stretch in the morning, it can even be three minutes, but it s like three to seven minutes.
8
SPEAKER_02
I feel markedly different during the day.
8
SPEAKER_02
If I just do it like a couple of these stretches.
8
SPEAKER_02
I m kind of, I m like a low back guy.
8
SPEAKER_02
Cause we all sit a lot.
8
SPEAKER_02
So there s only one chair called all 33 that I can sit in.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_02
All 33 is Dennis of peak wellness is chair.
8
SPEAKER_02
Michael Dennis is the man.
8
SPEAKER_02
Can we just agree that Dennis takes care of everyone in my family including my 78 year old mom and that is a guy, talk about givers and takers, that is a giver.
8
SPEAKER_00
He adjusted my implants on Instagram story.
8
SPEAKER_02
He moved your baby.
8
SPEAKER_01
He moved my baby in my stomach.
8
SPEAKER_00
He moved my baby.
8
SPEAKER_01
You know what s funny?
8
SPEAKER_01
Dennis has been on this show.
8
SPEAKER_02
I love Dennis.
8
SPEAKER_01
I think he s one of the best people.
8
SPEAKER_02
I went to a dentist, a dentist, not Dennis, a dentist like three months ago.
8
SPEAKER_02
And this person took care of me like, you know, just for a teeth cleaning in a way that like, you re just like, wow, just people who are so passionate about their craft, whatever it is.
8
SPEAKER_02
If they re a teacher, God bless them because I couldn t do it.
8
SPEAKER_02
If you re a dentist, I couldn t do it.
8
SPEAKER_02
If you re Dennis,
8
SPEAKER_02
I mean, it s incredible.
8
SPEAKER_02
And Dennis is one of those people just like, he s like a true healer.
8
SPEAKER_00
When I told Michael, I m like, I have this guy.
8
SPEAKER_00
Everyone says they have a guy.
8
SPEAKER_00
I m like, no, I have the guy.
8
SPEAKER_00
The guy that the guy is the guy that I have.
8
SPEAKER_02
You used to want to have a doctor and a lawyer.
8
SPEAKER_02
Now it s like you want someone like a dentist.
8
SPEAKER_02
I mean, you want Dennis over.
8
SPEAKER_00
The best.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
8
SPEAKER_00
So you sit in all 33 chairs.
8
SPEAKER_00
I ve posted this chair, you guys.
8
SPEAKER_00
It s the best.
8
SPEAKER_02
Only one that doesn t make my back hurt.
8
SPEAKER_02
I can sit in eight hours straight.
8
SPEAKER_02
Other than that, it s like 90 minutes and I need to sit up.
8
SPEAKER_02
That s the only chair I sit in.
8
SPEAKER_02
What was the question?
8
SPEAKER_00
No, I like, I want, I like how you re giving us tactical things.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_02
I mean, everyone s different, but if you sit a lot, it s all in the lower back and hips.
8
SPEAKER_02
So I have to do a lot of, um, a lot of, uh, twisting.
8
SPEAKER_02
Like I have to do like a lot of knees in the chest, rotate over like a lot of twists.
8
SPEAKER_02
I can get some good cracks usually.
8
SPEAKER_02
Um, even though it shouldn t be about that, but I definitely have to do some twists just like a little mini yoga, little, little, little down dog.
8
SPEAKER_02
Um, I just recently started doing,
8
SPEAKER_02
So like a little plank thing and actually it s amazing they say if you do those planks it actually helps with having a little lower back stiffness and it so does which is kind of counterintuitive.
8
SPEAKER_00
You and I could go off because you what did you call it net what?
8
SPEAKER_02
I think I made this up, net zero dead time.
8
SPEAKER_02
So I do it while I m doing something else.
8
SPEAKER_02
So other than the stretching, which I don t do anything while I m doing that, everything else I do, I sit in front of red lights, I stand on the vibrating plate.
8
SPEAKER_00
I have this thing called a biocharger.
8
SPEAKER_02
She gets a facial and then she s doing emails.
8
SPEAKER_00
I lay on my PMF mat and put my feet in the shake machine while I return emails.
8
SPEAKER_00
That s my favorite thing to do.
8
SPEAKER_00
And when people are like, how do you get stuff done?
8
SPEAKER_00
You habit stack it.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and I love the, I first heard that term from Arianna Huffington who s a dear friend of mine and I m on the board of her company Thrive, but it s all about those like habit stacking, the little resets during the day, like you re upset about something.
8
SPEAKER_02
She has these like Thrive resets.
8
SPEAKER_02
It s amazing how I can feel totally flustered, really upset, 60 second reset.
8
SPEAKER_02
That s all it takes to reset your nervous system.
8
SPEAKER_02
I love those because I m sure like you guys get enough stuff thrown at me during the day that if I don t start with some level of Zen or try to do a little bit of that, it can just spiral quickly.
8
SPEAKER_00
I think that what you said about the calendar and having space open on the calendar is so important.
8
SPEAKER_00
Ryan Holiday has this picture he always posts and I always send it to my assistants and it s like he thinks a day is successful when there s nothing on the calendar.
8
SPEAKER_00
And you are right, as you grow as a business person, it s like a badge of honor to show how busy you are and how many different colors are on your calendar.
8
SPEAKER_00
What the real fucking flex is, is having nothing on your calendar so you can create what you want to create.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I mean, it s GSD, get shit done, whatever.
8
SPEAKER_02
Can we swear on this podcast?
8
SPEAKER_02
It s been done before.
8
SPEAKER_01
Okay, sorry.
8
SPEAKER_02
But that s the measure, right?
8
SPEAKER_02
It s not about anything.
8
SPEAKER_02
It s busyness with a Y versus busyness with an I. It s just getting done what you endeavor to get done, right?
8
SPEAKER_02
And I think it s just so important to leave that slack in the system.
8
SPEAKER_02
And I just think it s, yeah.
8
SPEAKER_02
I mean, that s for me what it s all about.
8
SPEAKER_00
I think to take things to the- Oh, sorry.
8
SPEAKER_02
I lost my train of thought.
8
SPEAKER_02
You saw that.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yes, yes, yes.
8
SPEAKER_02
But it s come back.
8
SPEAKER_00
Perfect.
8
SPEAKER_02
OK, here s something that I actually think would be counterintuitive to most people.
8
SPEAKER_02
I took control of my calendar myself about three years ago.
8
SPEAKER_02
Oh, fuck.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_02
I don t think I could do that.
8
SPEAKER_00
So listen to this.
8
SPEAKER_02
Oh my god, Courtney.
8
SPEAKER_02
So my brother uses an outsourced assistant for his calendar in the Philippines.
8
SPEAKER_02
That s a whole different story because of time zones and everything.
8
SPEAKER_02
And every time I try and use her, there s complications, we ll say, because of time zones.
8
SPEAKER_02
But taking over my calendar does an interesting thing.
8
SPEAKER_02
I like in the final say on anything that goes on my calendar because what I found was there s just too much going on that I don t need to do and if it s not a heck yeah, it should be a no.
8
SPEAKER_02
Do I need to be in that meeting?
8
SPEAKER_02
There s already seven people in it, 12 people in it.
8
SPEAKER_02
So one, it made me just say no to a lot more stuff.
8
SPEAKER_02
I think as you get, for me as I get older, it s more about simplifying and pruning than adding and that s so hard because
8
SPEAKER_02
I can speak for my brother when I say he and I got here by saying yes and yes and yes and just stacking and stacking and stacking.
8
SPEAKER_02
And when you start at Goldman Sachs, working 80 hours a week seems like a vacation when it s for yourself.
8
SPEAKER_02
So now it s about saying no and simplifying.
8
SPEAKER_02
But then the other thing that happens with the calendar is like, say people in my company, who should I go to get this on your calendar?
8
SPEAKER_02
Oh, right here.
8
SPEAKER_02
What do you want?
8
SPEAKER_02
I ll come back to you.
8
SPEAKER_02
You know, when it doesn t go through your assistant, nobody sneaks anything on there.
8
SPEAKER_02
Nobody bullies anything on there.
8
SPEAKER_02
And then it s really ingratiating when Tony Robbins is like,
8
SPEAKER_02
This assistant just emails me, she s like, there s no one you want to do this.
8
SPEAKER_02
I was like, there s someone who could do it, but I d just rather do it.
8
SPEAKER_02
I promise you ll have one email with me.
8
SPEAKER_02
I ll say this time, if you say no, you give me two times and we ll pick one.
8
SPEAKER_00
This motherfucker is going to take this tip.
8
SPEAKER_00
I see his wheels spinning and spinning and spinning.
8
SPEAKER_01
He loves these tips.
8
SPEAKER_01
I like that.
8
SPEAKER_01
I think that it becomes a challenge.
8
SPEAKER_01
I mean, and listen, this is people are different stages, but in the beginning of our career, and I know we re getting on time here and the beginning of our career, it s like you say yes to so many things and you get in that habit.
8
SPEAKER_01
And I think at some point you have to transition and be more selective and say no to more than you say yes.
8
SPEAKER_01
And it s counter-advice because, to your point, Lauren and I were the people when we started this show, we were working different jobs, we had different businesses, and we were in the car.
8
SPEAKER_01
We said yes to everything.
8
SPEAKER_01
We d get on a plane, we were carrying all that.
8
SPEAKER_01
Now, it s not that we say no to the show, but the point is,
8
SPEAKER_01
that formula of trying to say yes now, we would run ourselves into the ground and we wouldn t be able to be as focused as we are.
8
SPEAKER_02
And the irony is that almost everyone probably has to say yes for a long time before you re in the position to be fortunate enough to say no.
8
SPEAKER_01
But some people never get to the point where they can say no.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_02
I love things even like, like I said, I m an old school Outlook guy because that s what I kind of grew up on email wise.
8
SPEAKER_02
But I love timers.
8
SPEAKER_02
Do you use timers on your list?
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
I use the twisty ones.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
I use tons of timers.
8
SPEAKER_02
Like the Pomodoro method?
8
SPEAKER_02
Because it s like this.
8
SPEAKER_02
There s people I have to reply to right away.
8
SPEAKER_02
And there s people where if I reply right away, all that s going to happen is another email comes back.
8
SPEAKER_02
And I know parameters of things.
8
SPEAKER_02
So it s like, well, that doesn t need to happen until next week.
8
SPEAKER_02
So I want to respond.
8
SPEAKER_02
But if I don t respond now, I do net zero inbox, whereas opposed to my brother.
9
SPEAKER_01
does like 30,000 unreads.
9
SPEAKER_01
So I reply to that email right now, but then I set on a timer for three days from now to go out on Friday and it s like, great, we re on pace for next week.
9
SPEAKER_01
So it just paces out things while still keeping them moving.
9
SPEAKER_01
Now, occasionally you have some faux pas where I set the timer wrong and it ll be like, hey, great talking to you, whatever, whatever.
9
SPEAKER_01
We didn t talk and I m like, whoops, the timer didn t happen, so I sent the email right away.
9
SPEAKER_01
Oh, you re talking about timers for email.
9
SPEAKER_01
Timers for email.
9
SPEAKER_01
I thought you meant like a- I use Boomerang, do you know Boomerang?
9
SPEAKER_01
Oh, Boomerang, yeah, yeah, yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
But like, just as a pacing thing to your day, I love timers to like, because I m like, ugh, the timer slows down the pacing of your day.
9
SPEAKER_00
Wait, so hold on, I have to understand this.
9
SPEAKER_02
Hold on, you ll learn something here, Lauren, I promise.
9
SPEAKER_02
You send Lauren Rapidfire s emails on like a psychopath.
9
SPEAKER_00
No, I have a tip on it.
9
SPEAKER_00
My way works too.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s a different way.
9
SPEAKER_00
No, no, no.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s chaotic.
9
SPEAKER_02
She writes Rapidfire emails on a Sunday.
9
SPEAKER_00
So no one can respond.
9
SPEAKER_02
Like 40 of them.
9
SPEAKER_02
But then they hit the- 600 emails.
9
SPEAKER_02
But if you used a timer, those emails would go through, but they would go through in like an appropriate time.
9
SPEAKER_00
No, I don t.
9
SPEAKER_00
The time that I have to respond to my emails is on Sundays.
9
SPEAKER_00
I love it because no one can write me an email back.
9
SPEAKER_00
So I get it all out of my inbox and it s all delegation.
9
SPEAKER_00
Where does this email go?
9
SPEAKER_00
Here you go.
9
SPEAKER_00
And then I go like this until next Sunday and I don t check my email.
9
SPEAKER_01
But half of them come to me.
9
SPEAKER_00
Too bad.
9
SPEAKER_01
I think when we were on email, I got the out of office saying you re, you re, you know, you re away writing.
9
SPEAKER_00
That s another boundary that I ve set because that s a boundary.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s like I, my email to me is a tool.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s not somewhere where I live.
9
SPEAKER_01
You know what they say, the inbox is someone else s to-do list for you, not your own to-do list, right?
9
SPEAKER_00
And guess what, that letter shuts down things that maybe I don t need to see, or maybe I don t need to be involved in, or maybe I don t need to respond, shuts it down.
9
SPEAKER_01
It does.
9
SPEAKER_01
I can t argue that.
9
SPEAKER_01
I would say my learning on the Sunday is one, let s say it s my internal team.
9
SPEAKER_01
I just don t want to burn people out.
9
SPEAKER_01
So an email that I would reply to Sunday morning, I set a timer for Sunday night.
9
SPEAKER_01
And on the off chance they want to like get ahead of their week, the real industrious ones, they ll check their email at like nine o clock on Sunday, but it s not like I burdened them.
9
SPEAKER_01
And if they don t, they see it Monday morning, first thing.
9
SPEAKER_00
That s smart though.
9
SPEAKER_00
So you re saying like I can do my emails on Sunday, but like don t overwhelm people.
9
SPEAKER_01
It takes a touch more effort, but it s funny too.
9
SPEAKER_01
You also learn, let s say I used to be one of those people that like would almost have a list of I want to meet these people, right?
9
SPEAKER_01
This is important who I want to meet sometimes for reasons, sometimes for no reason.
9
SPEAKER_01
And what you learn is, because I would always reach out.
9
SPEAKER_01
So a lot of them, I didn t have their cell phone number, but I found their email, Tim Cook or whatever.
9
SPEAKER_01
It s almost 50-50, those that respond on Sunday because your email is a better chance of getting seen, with those that you piss off because you emailed them on Sunday.
9
SPEAKER_01
It s about, so then I find out.
9
SPEAKER_00
People get pissed if you email them, who s checking their email?
9
SPEAKER_00
I don t check my email, so I don t know if anyone emails me.
9
SPEAKER_02
I think you re right, some people will get irritated, myself included, when you email me 18 times.
9
SPEAKER_00
You do the refresh thing, I don t do that.
9
SPEAKER_02
Because I like to do zero inbox too.
9
SPEAKER_01
But I do think it s whether it s timers, it is like, you know, Tim Ferriss taught me a long time ago.
9
SPEAKER_01
I think we both agree that there s something like timers or something like batching.
9
SPEAKER_01
Tim Ferriss has a different kind of company than I have, but he used to say he did it, he ll check his email once in the morning, once in the middle of the day, and once at the end of the day.
9
SPEAKER_01
Short of the building burning down, what could possibly need more than that?
9
SPEAKER_01
And I don t adhere to that, but I feel like I ve done that for periods and the world doesn t end, right?
9
SPEAKER_00
You and Michael are very similar with your relationship.
9
SPEAKER_01
We ve covered a lot of ground.
9
SPEAKER_01
I d like to keep covering more.
9
SPEAKER_00
I mean, yeah, you can come back on.
9
SPEAKER_01
Do you like Pareto s law?
9
SPEAKER_01
That s one of my other big guiding principles.
9
SPEAKER_00
What s Pareto s law?
9
SPEAKER_01
The 80-20.
9
SPEAKER_01
The 80-20 rule.
9
SPEAKER_01
And I actually think it s sometimes 80-20.
9
SPEAKER_01
And depending on what you re talking about, it s somewhere between 80-20 and 95-5.
9
SPEAKER_00
What do you apply it to, though?
9
SPEAKER_00
What do you use that rule?
9
SPEAKER_00
Give me something, I ll apply it.
9
SPEAKER_00
Let s say I want to write a book.
9
SPEAKER_01
Well, I guess it would be for Pareto s Law, I mean, it s 80-20 meaning like, I guess that s like the how you write your book.
9
SPEAKER_01
Like maybe you decide for a while you re going to focus 20% of the book if you re in no deadline, 80% in your day job or vice versa.
9
SPEAKER_01
But it s like Pareto s Law is like this, like you re a salesperson.
9
SPEAKER_01
For most sales organization,
9
SPEAKER_01
80% of your clients do 20% of your sales.
9
SPEAKER_01
It should be the inverse.
9
SPEAKER_01
You should have your top 20% of your clients doing 80% of the sales.
9
SPEAKER_01
Think how much easier your life would be if you can go deeper with those.
9
SPEAKER_01
Like diet.
9
SPEAKER_01
I think diet, depending on how strict you want to be, 95.5% or 80.20%.
9
SPEAKER_01
For me, I m an 80-20 sort of guy because there s been points where I ve had a really good six pack and I know what that s like.
9
SPEAKER_01
It s no fun.
9
SPEAKER_01
And I don t have a real good reason to, so I m like at 80-20.
9
SPEAKER_01
Try to be healthy 80% of the time so I can enjoy the other 20%.
9
SPEAKER_01
But if I want to have a ripping six pack, it s got to be like 95-5.
9
SPEAKER_00
You know what?
9
SPEAKER_00
I ve learned a lot this podcast.
9
SPEAKER_00
Pimp out your book.
9
SPEAKER_00
Everyone needs to go buy it.
9
SPEAKER_00
It is so digestible and amazing.
9
SPEAKER_00
I screenshotted it to Michael and was like, we have to get this guy.
9
SPEAKER_00
Both of you guys, we have to get Carter on at some point.
9
SPEAKER_01
You should get Carter.
9
SPEAKER_01
You should get Carter and Paris on.
9
SPEAKER_00
Maybe together.
9
SPEAKER_00
That d be awesome.
9
SPEAKER_00
That d be fun to get both of you two.
9
SPEAKER_01
Fun fact, you know I ve been on your podcast before.
9
SPEAKER_01
I love these blank looks.
9
SPEAKER_01
Don t edit this, people.
9
SPEAKER_01
I ve been on your podcast before.
9
SPEAKER_01
I mean, mentioned on your podcast.
9
SPEAKER_01
You ve been mentioned on the podcast?
9
SPEAKER_01
Mentioned.
9
SPEAKER_01
I m like, what?
9
SPEAKER_01
Maybe more than once, but we ve done a lot of these.
9
SPEAKER_01
Brooke connected us.
9
SPEAKER_01
Who mentioned you?
9
SPEAKER_01
I was listening to Brooke.
9
SPEAKER_01
She was talking about sitting with a friend who was in a relationship, trying to decide kind of analytically if the person, I can t remember what word she used.
9
SPEAKER_01
That was you.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that was me.
9
SPEAKER_00
Wait, wait, wait.
9
SPEAKER_00
Tell me the story because I want to remember.
9
SPEAKER_01
You were trying to decide if this was the person you wanted to.
9
SPEAKER_01
If this was the person and kind of like digging into what s it look like five years from now and 10 years from now and the mother of my kids and what are the traits I m looking for.
9
SPEAKER_01
And it was funny because I was listening in preparation for this.
9
SPEAKER_01
And then she s referencing, she s having this talk with someone.
9
SPEAKER_01
And then she says something like a friend of mine.
9
SPEAKER_01
And then she said, brilliant.
9
SPEAKER_01
So I was like, OK, probably not me.
9
SPEAKER_01
And then she said, older friend.
9
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, and then she just described it all.
9
SPEAKER_01
And I was like,
9
SPEAKER_01
Oh, wait, no, that s definitely me.
9
SPEAKER_01
So I texted her and I said, was that me?
9
SPEAKER_01
You said older.
9
SPEAKER_01
She said, well, I like to keep my friends secrets.
9
SPEAKER_01
So I appreciate it.
9
SPEAKER_02
You almost just tripped me the fuck out.
9
SPEAKER_02
I was like, wait a minute.
9
SPEAKER_01
I was trying to think.
9
SPEAKER_02
I m like, we ve done a lot of these shows.
9
SPEAKER_00
One of the things that I think makes you so successful after interviewing you, and I m saying this on air.
9
SPEAKER_02
We figured you out now in an hour and a half.
9
SPEAKER_00
You are a very thorough person.
9
SPEAKER_00
It seems like whatever you do, you give 100%.
9
SPEAKER_00
Don t you get that from him?
9
SPEAKER_00
He s a thorough person.
9
SPEAKER_01
Well, do you remember when you guys almost made me cry about my dad?
9
SPEAKER_01
My first quote I gave was my dad used to say, when Courtney really wants to do something, he s into it.
9
SPEAKER_01
Watch out.
9
SPEAKER_01
When Courtney doesn t really want to do something, watch out.
9
SPEAKER_01
But I think that s true.
9
SPEAKER_00
You re going to be a good dad.
9
SPEAKER_01
I hope so.
9
SPEAKER_01
I m ready.
9
SPEAKER_00
Where can everyone find you and your book?
9
SPEAKER_01
Our book is called Shortcut Your Startup.
9
SPEAKER_01
It s been out shockingly for five years, but I m really proud of the fact that it actually, the sales are like very consistent over after the initial pop, which hopefully tells me it has some longevity and people are getting something from it.
9
SPEAKER_01
My Instagram is, there s only one Courtney Ream.
9
SPEAKER_01
So if you Google hard enough, you ll probably probably find me on LinkedIn, just at Courtney Ream on Instagram.
9
SPEAKER_01
And then of course my company M13, so at M13 or M13.co, cause dot com is so passe.
9
SPEAKER_00
You can come back on anytime.
9
SPEAKER_00
No AI cold emails.
9
SPEAKER_01
No AI cold emails, but if you do an email, I ll guarantee if you do an email with some personalized thing that resonates, I promise I ll report it.
9
SPEAKER_00
What if I send a thong?
9
SPEAKER_01
Everyone send your thong to Courtney.
9
SPEAKER_01
I d rather take Michael s, it s just safer at this point.
9
SPEAKER_01
You send yours to Charlie and Warren.
9
SPEAKER_01
Thank you, Courtney.
9
SPEAKER_00
Thank you for coming on.
9
SPEAKER_01
Thank you so much for having me.