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The following podcast is a Dear Media production.
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This episode is brought to you by The Skinny Confidential.
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Butter brush, specifically.
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If you have not tried dry brushing, you are missing out.
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It is the best part of my day, especially as a busy mom.
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So what I do
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is I wake up, I ll meditate if I have time and my kids are asleep and I ll go in my bathroom and for two minutes I will brush up under the heart and down over the heart and circular on my stomach for two straight minutes and then I will hop in a freezing cold shower.
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And the mix of these two things is like three shots of expresso.
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It is the best way to start your day.
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I am telling you.
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And Butter Brush is so special to me.
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It s actually my favorite tool in the line.
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It s been something that I ve wanted to create forever.
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It exfoliates buffs off dead skin and rejuvenates your skin.
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It s like a whole skincare situation for your body.
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I am absolutely obsessed with how Butter Brush looks.
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It can hang from a hook in your bathroom so it doesn t get moldy.
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It s silicone, easy to clean, and has all natural bristles.
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You can shop Butter Brush now on shopskinnyconfidential.com.
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That s shopskinnyconfidential.com.
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She s a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire.
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Fantastic.
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And he s a serial entrepreneur.
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A very smart cookie.
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And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostick are bringing you along for the ride.
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Get ready for some major realness.
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Welcome to the Skinny Confidential, him and her.
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To be successful, you don t require an insane marketing budget.
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And that s what s so cool about 2023 is like the camera on your iPhone is so powerful and trying things out like test, test, test, and test.
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Like you no longer have to have a half a million dollar TV ad that s going to be perfect that you need to run on TV with a million dollar ad spend.
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You can create an ad in two hours and run it for $25 and see how it performs.
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The internet is a funny place.
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I actually was on TikTok, and I was looking for people who specialize in marketing and strategy.
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And I came across this girl who was so interesting with her approach to marketing and just so in your face in the best way.
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And her name was Camille Moore.
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So I followed her.
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I watched her content.
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I learned a lot from it.
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And then I reached out to her.
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And I was like, you have to come on the Him and Her show.
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And this episode delivers.
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She came on, she gave us the nitty gritty.
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She talks about the difference between good and bad marketing, how to get started as a content creator and how to make a splash, overcomplicated marketing tactics, marketing tactics that you can apply to your own business or social media, and how to understand the psychology of consumers.
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This episode for me as a business owner was really interesting.
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I learned a lot of really great marketing tips.
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And if you re looking for a follow on TikTok, she s your girl.
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On that note, let s welcome Camille Moore, who is a marketing and strategy expert to The Him and Her Show.
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This is the skinny, confidential him and her.
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Okay, I think it s so cool that we are sitting here because I m scrolling through TikTok, which I try not to do.
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I have like parameters around when I scroll on TikTok.
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It has to be when I m doing something productive like taking a walk.
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And you pop up and you re this firecracker, bold, in your face, flamboyant, tell it how it is.
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And I m like, okay, this is interesting with what you were saying.
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And I go to your feed and I m just like sucked into your videos because what you re saying is so smart, so relevant, but also it was different than everything I was seeing on my TikTok feed.
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First, I want to know why you even decided to create content on TikTok and how you knew that that kind of content would take fire.
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I didn t want to create content.
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I hated the idea of creating content and the only reason why I decided to create content is because I didn t really have a choice.
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I was telling clients for so long that the only way to get business, to generate business, to create a brand that s lasting is to create content.
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And I wasn t doing it because I used the excuse of I m too busy.
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I was so crippled by the idea of people I knew in my immediate circle judging me because those are the first people that see it.
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And I hated the idea of when you re kind of at that point in your life where
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you start to become a professional but those people that that are close to you don t see you as being good at your career because you re young and it was getting to kind of like pass that tipping point of where other people started to validate that you re actually great at what you do and it s that loose tie phenomenon where they don t they don t they didn t know you in high school they didn t know you in university they re meeting you as an expert now
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So I really didn t want to create content.
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I didn t think that I had anything interesting or different to say.
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I totally suffered from imposter syndrome and it was a lot of pulling teeth and I did it because it wasn t getting traction for so long that it allowed me to be better at speaking and talking to my clients and then finally we had a video that hit.
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I was in New York City when the first video hit and I actually told my team to not post the content because I hated the way that I looked and I was so fixated, we were talking about this a few minutes ago, of how I actually looked that I couldn t actually listen to the message.
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That morning when I was shooting content, I hadn t properly washed the shampoo out of my hair and I was like midway blow drying and I was like late because the video team was showing up and I couldn t get my hair to dry where it wasn t looking wet.
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So I m like, okay, type on.
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Sat down to shoot the content, my fly was undone and my shirt was like half untucked into my shirt.
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I hated the way that I looked, but my team
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didn t listen to me and they posted it anyways and it hit in New York City.
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And then that was the first one when I was like, okay, maybe there s something here and let s keep at it.
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But it s mind blowing to me that I m one of the only people on the internet saying that marketing has lost the plot.
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Why has marketing lost the plot?
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It s a deep question.
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Go deep.
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We love deep.
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I think there s a few reasons why marketing has lost the plot.
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On one hand, I think society has kind of lost the plot on how we can communicate and how we can discuss issues and what s happening with social political issues and just politics in general.
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That has also crept into like ESG ratings.
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which is deeply impacting how huge corporations are marketing because there s things happening behind the scenes that impact shareholders for why they re deciding to talk about issues that they really don t care about.
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And I think there s another kind of arm of how overwhelming digital marketing is for the majority of who s successful in business because the CEOs and the C-suite executives are over 40 and they didn t grow up with their cell phones.
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They don t understand the Facebook and the TikTok and the YouTube and the Instagram and because they don t understand what s happening on social media they re chasing
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snake oil answers to try to get a better quarter.
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And because they don t understand it, they re overcomplicating it.
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Because the algorithm is changing so quickly, nobody knows what they re doing.
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And there s so many things going on that the big companies are failing to market.
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And the small and medium-sized businesses are trying to look at them for the answers.
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And
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and everyone is just in this clusterfuck of, we have no idea what to do.
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And we re missing, we re not going back to like what made marketing great before, which is just like simple microscripts that s not tied to social justice issues.
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And it s, I m still trying to like unpack it and we re trying to develop almost our own language around it because marketing shouldn t be this complicated.
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Like it should be what we ve been doing for hundreds of years, but just,
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on a new platform, like in a new way.
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It s like, bring the Mad Men-esque back to social.
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Instagram.
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Yes.
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And there s like, I don t even know how to synthesize this because it s like something that I mean, I m like, I m unpacking.
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I think it s going to be my I m going to be a philosopher of social media marketing.
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And when I think about it, because we re watching like Rome right now and it and it s hilarious.
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There s this
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The old HBO room?
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Yeah, the old HBO room.
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Oh, don t talk to me about that.
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The second season, we don t discuss.
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Well, no, but they never finished it.
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You ll see.
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They just quit the show.
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Don t tell her.
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I can t even go.
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No, I can t even go past it.
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They changed the actor.
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There was a writer s strike that happened.
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I don t know what happened, but they never... Why change the lead?
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I think there was a bunch of stuff going on back then, but that s a great show, but it s devastating that they didn t finish it.
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But the only thing that I will talk about in the show that I did like is, you know that guy that s like the orator in Rome?
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He gives ads.
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He s like advertising the best bread bakery.
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And it s like, literally his ad is like, whatever the bakery is, the bread of choice for Romans.
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And I m like,
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That s good marketing.
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They re not talking about social justice issues.
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They re not.
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And when I go to like museums and I look back at like really cool vintage ads, it was just about the product and how it made you feel.
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It was like you were going to be the coolest guy because you re wearing this bracelet.
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Like it wasn t about.
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So there s these people that are really suffering within our community and we need we need to go back to like no plastics.
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But here s a cup.
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Right.
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Like, it s not overcomplicating it.
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Yes.
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That actually makes total sense.
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It s like, now you have to check, like, if you re a food product, it s like vegan, gluten-free, non-GMO.
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Kosher.
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Kosher.
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Here s the thing, and I want to thoughtfully say this.
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I think
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Brands in particular and the shareholders in those brands are more scared now of missing a conversation or being left out of or getting some flack if they don t jump into a conversation instead of catering to what their customers actually want from them.
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Does that make sense?
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Yeah.
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So when I think about running this company, I have to spend a lot of time reminding people in this organization that mostly people come to, not just for SkinnyCup, but for Dear Media, they come because
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They want to get some entertainment from the shows.
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They want to get some news.
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If it s that kind of show, they want to be inspired in some kind of way.
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They want to have a laugh.
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They don t need my personal take or the company s personal take on every hot button issue that s going on in the world.
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Right.
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And at some point, if you, if it s okay to, if it s, if it s native to what you re doing as a company and it makes sense to the, to the story and the brand you re building fine.
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But if all of a sudden one day I m sharing about a fiction comedy show, and the next day I m doing a social justice agenda, it s not that I can t acknowledge those things, but that audience may look at it and say, hey, can you just give me what I came here in the first place for, which was I wanted to listen to this thing.
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And so I m very careful about threading that line, but never feeling the pressure to just do things because other people are doing things.
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Yes, but I don t think that you re the issue.
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I m never the issue.
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It s true.
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It s not the skinny confidential.
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It s not dear media.
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When I talk about marketing has lost the plot, it s more like corporations have always been faceless.
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And to be faceless means you can t stand for an independently charged issue.
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And that s the problem that we re facing because for forever, people like us looked to companies like Nike for inspiration of marketing.
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They were the marketing behemoths.
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When we talk about Mad Men, it was these big faceless companies.
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It was Tiffany.
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It s Nike.
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It s all of the companies that we can rattle off.
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When you re faceless, you have to create.
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a brand you can t you can t stand for a political issue when you re an individual when you re Lauren Bostic that owns a skinny confidential you can care about digestive issues you can care about skin cancer because it makes sense to your brand and that s that s not where marketing has an issue like with social media and personal brands you re building tribes and you can have tribalism within the issues that you agree with and that s I m not
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I m not advocating for bringing politics into your business and marketing.
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I think that s in and of itself a separate conversation, but it can work.
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But when you re a faceless entity, the only reason why they re bringing these issues into the fold is because of ESG ratings and the average person doesn t know that.
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That s really interesting that you re saying this because there s a new book that just came out on Glossier.
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Yes.
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And what I think happened is people started to associate Emily Weiss as Glossier.
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Yeah.
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And had you not associated that, Glossier would have been able to stand on its own without having to check any boxes because it wasn t Emily Weiss.
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Yeah.
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And so what she did by stepping in as chairman is she eliminated her and Glossier to be so intertwined.
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And and that that was a problem because people were like, oh, glossy.
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That s Emily Weiss s brand.
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So I think when you are launching a brand like for me, it s really important to make the skinny confidential way bigger than Lauren Bostic.
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I don t want I want like it to not be Lauren Bostic, in fact.
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So but that s hard to differentiate when you create the brand.
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So it s it s it s sort of a double edged sword.
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Totally.
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But but that s also
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That s where good branding matters because you can craft the story in the way that you want it to be told.
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But where I think when I say marketing has lost the plot, what comes to mind are instances like Bud Light, right, where how the hell did that get approved?
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And but it s actually funny, like that was kind of my first reaction.
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And then now with kind of where I am and with what I ve seen, the only things that these companies can actually also agree upon are things like Breast Cancer Awareness Month.
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And they re not getting anything effective done.
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Like we ve lost the like the hurts campaigns where
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we re number two, we try harder because people are just so afraid to say anything interesting or even the word controversy.
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Like I say with my clients, you got to say something controversial and the word controversial isn t even the right word because it s so negatively charged, but you have to just say something that people can either agree or disagree with.
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And it can be something that s not even really that disagreeable.
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Like,
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Talking about Bud Light not being the right move objectively wasn t the right move when you look at how much money the company lost.
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Yeah, regardless of the social agenda that it was trying to portray, from a company P&L perspective, it was a terrible move for them.
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It was a terrible decision.
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But you would say, how the hell does that get approved?
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I know exactly how it gets approved.
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Somebody comes pushing that campaign and says, if we don t do this thing, we are going to get this kind of flack, or you re going to be the company that shut down this idea.
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And the shareholders at the top say, oh shit, we don t need the entire thing.
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And it backfired on them, right?
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And I think that s the difficulty with
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placating to what you believe is popular or not popular based on what s going on in the social chatter online.
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I think a lot of these guys, to your point, they sit at the top of this, they re not on these platforms, they have no idea how to read the social chatter.
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Somebody comes to them in a panic saying, we have to do this.
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They freak out thinking, if I don t do this, I m going to ruin the company.
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Then they do do it and they ruin the company.
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It s a tough position to be in because this is new technology that moves really fast.
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I even think that you see a lot of the turmoil that s going on in the world, and I won t get so political.
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people don t realize how fast things can move now based on how quick information flows.
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Like I m two for two now.
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I had SVB for the business and I was at first Republic personally, not to get super deep into that, but people don t realize like those bank runs happened in a matter of 24 hours.
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Billion dollar companies got taken down because of the speed of that information flows out.
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And there s no way that those shareholders were sitting at the top.
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thinking that that could ever happen.
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And I think that s the interesting space where people just, they re nervous and they make these decisions out of fear because they don t want the internet to turn on them.
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And then it turns on them in the wrong way.
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It s complicated.
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It s very complicated.
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It s very complicated also for people that have no clue what they re doing on these platforms.
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Does that make sense?
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Totally.
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And there s also another angle of this where shareholder valuations and constantly chasing perpetual increased quarters is so damaging for businesses because you can t be forever going up.
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And that s what s really difficult when you re in marketing because they re looking for, and I talk about this a lot in my content, like what Tiffany, Tiffany s killed its brand because they re, they re chasing trends and they re using marketing
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agencies that are trying to give quarterly metrics to their, the C-suite team that are like, look what we re doing.
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It s, we re getting likes, we re getting comments, we re getting shares, but they re creating memes that are trash for the brand that when we grew up, when we like to have that, like, you know, please return to Tiffany Hart was like a status symbol.
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And when I look at Tiffany now, I m like, you re cheap.
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What they created memes, would you mean like cartoon memes?
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What do you mean?
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They ve done content like, for example, for April Fool s, they did this like horrible, like almost like an Asian kind of like inspired, like huge, chunky sneaker.
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right?
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And they like bedazzled it.
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And they like had this like crazy animation and they can t like and like Pharrell at the time was working with the brand and they made it seem like they were dropping these like K-pop bedazzled sneakers.
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And it was like their April Fool s joke.
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And I m like a brand that is that is meant to be coveted as the engagement ring brand for women
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Indefinitely.
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Timeless classic.
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Timeless classic.
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Shouldn t be chasing an April Fool s joke on Instagram.
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No, that may.
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So what you re saying is that that these marketing people or companies are coming in and they re just overcomplicating the message.
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It needs to be simplified and you need to go back to the roots of what made you popular in the beginning.
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Completely.
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If you re a luxury brand that s been in business for 300 years, like why are you chasing like quarterly metrics?
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It doesn t make sense.
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Like your place on social is not designed, like I ve been in the boardrooms for the biggest, like the biggest fashion brands in the world and their entire mandate is supposed to be not focused on sales because Cartier is not supposed to care about what they make next quarter.
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They re meant to maintain value for the next 20 years.
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When we think Birkin, it s gone up in value, it s been more stable than gold.
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In order to do that, you can t chase next quarter s metrics.
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Like you have to be focused on the long run of marketing.
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I think it s a brand.
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Fear of missing out.
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I think Tiffany sees that what young, youthful creators are doing on TikTok and they want a piece of that instant quick hit, that quick hit of cocaine that gets you all the followers and all the virality.
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And so what they do is they think, oh, we need to do a meme to stay relevant to that demographic when they leave the other demo that they ve been catering behind.
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And that is a mistake because it s like leaving leaving the people that have supported you and got you there.
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They should be walking me who wore their bracelet through what my my jewelry moment is now at this age as a mother.
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Yeah, totally.
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I also think that, and this is going to, I got to think about how I want to say this, but there is a huge push to be inclusive of everyone, everything, all the time.
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And I m not saying that is not morally the correct way to think, but when I hear you talk about Tiffany s or Kardia, for example,
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Immediately my mind goes, that s a higher income, upper echelon group of people that can afford very expensive stuff that most of the world will never look at.
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If you re the brand and you look at it from that approach and say, okay, I understand this is my customer base.
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It just is what it is.
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To your point, it s been built over 200 years.
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I think it is then a mistake to try to pretend you re relatable to the rest of the world and loop everybody in.
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Great point.
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Because you re not, right?
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And I think that s where brands are getting in trouble.
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Tiffany s is a very elevated, expensive brand that it was to celebrate an engagement or a special occasion, and it was like a once in a while purchase for wealthy people.
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To then turn all that and say, hey, we re for everybody, that s just a mistake from the business perspective.
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And it makes no sense.
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Because it doesn t work.
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And that s like the reason why I give the fashion houses is that s always been the far extreme Right.
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So when I think about like how the hell is Yeti a cooler company doing a better job than Tiffany Like that doesn t make any sense.
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And that s why I
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I think marketing has lost the plot.
2
SPEAKER_02
How is the people that have understood that we can charge 200 times for silver jewelry and the other silver jewelry companies can t see through the delusion that posting an April Fool s post is a good idea?
2
SPEAKER_02
It blows my mind.
2
SPEAKER_02
And that s why I think that
2
SPEAKER_02
We need to almost take a step back.
2
SPEAKER_02
Social media is the most amazing thing.
2
SPEAKER_02
I think it s effing fantastic that we can connect through digital platforms, people I would have never met through a country that I don t even live in.
2
SPEAKER_02
I know, that s wild.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s amazing.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it s so cool.
2
SPEAKER_02
But...
2
SPEAKER_02
It doesn t mean that we need to change the core principles of how humans have bought and have told stories for thousands of years.
2
SPEAKER_01
So why I really wanted to bring you on here is there s a lot of people listening who have businesses or blogs or they re content creators and they want to tap into marketing, but they have no experience in marketing.
2
SPEAKER_01
If you were to give this your sort of like tips and your theories and your philosophies in a digestible way to people to apply to their own businesses, what are those like little pillars?
2
SPEAKER_02
Okay, there s a few.
2
SPEAKER_02
I think the first is good marketing shouldn t cost calories.
2
SPEAKER_02
So if you have to take a few orders of thinking to get to what you re trying to say, it s not going to work.
2
SPEAKER_02
We are in an intention economy.
2
SPEAKER_02
I call them microscripts or they re called microscripts and the book actually on microscripts is a great book to read.
2
SPEAKER_02
And it s things like, don t mess with Texas.
2
SPEAKER_02
It tastes awful, but it works.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s a tagline, but it s more than a tagline because there s so much meaning derided in it in a non-obvious way.
2
SPEAKER_02
So it s a three to five word sentence.
2
SPEAKER_02
And good marketing should
2
SPEAKER_02
encapsulate a microscript.
2
SPEAKER_02
That s kind of the first thing that I would say.
2
SPEAKER_02
The second is it depends what industry you re in.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like if you re a service provider, you have to invest in a personal brand.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like that is the way that we buy.
2
SPEAKER_02
We buy through social media and we buy by understanding who the person is that we re working with.
2
SPEAKER_02
And you can t wait for the consult.
2
SPEAKER_02
The consult happens unfortunately online.
2
SPEAKER_02
So that s why creating content is so important because
2
SPEAKER_02
we wouldn t be having this conversation if I didn t create content.
2
SPEAKER_02
And my job interview is happening online while I don t even know that it s happening.
2
SPEAKER_02
And that s how we buy.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like to be able to even think of like any service provider that you want to work with, whether it s a doctor, a lawyer, you find them online.
2
SPEAKER_02
Right.
2
SPEAKER_02
And a lot of their marketing looks the same.
2
SPEAKER_02
So you really want to invest in capturing what makes you unique and why you re the best person for the job.
2
SPEAKER_02
The third is
2
SPEAKER_02
You are not the hero of your own story.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, please go off on this.
2
SPEAKER_02
The customer is the hero.
2
SPEAKER_02
And you see this a lot in products because it s it seems so like it seems it makes so much sense because like the person that s buying it you re wanting to make you re trying to create their reality to be better.
2
SPEAKER_02
But when you re in services the service provider gets so
2
SPEAKER_02
obsessed with their expertise, they can t see the forest for the trees, that they become so obsessed with talking about their credentials that they forget to talk about you.
2
SPEAKER_02
And the reason why they re hiring you is because they want their life to be better.
2
SPEAKER_02
So that d be kind of the third tip.
2
SPEAKER_02
I think the last, before you unpack this and probably ask some more questions, is
2
SPEAKER_02
Simple is better, but simple is not easy.
2
SPEAKER_02
That s why I think it s so interesting that my message is done so well, because it s really simple.
2
SPEAKER_02
But you don t find simple enough.
2
SPEAKER_02
And if you can just focus on simple by making the customer the hero, you re gold.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you re a faceless, let s call it faceless brand, I don t know, like say you re a, I don t want to pick on any product, specific product, like this water, like this water.
2
SPEAKER_00
And you don t have a, there s no person as there s, and nobody knows who s actually the face.
2
SPEAKER_00
What, what do you see brands doing well there?
2
SPEAKER_00
And what do you see brands making mistakes with?
2
SPEAKER_02
They re overcomplicating it.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like that s kind of where the simple, the simple comes in.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like if this is the best tasting water, like actually this is a great example.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like if we were to analyze this bottle, like all I can see is like it s since 1871.
2
SPEAKER_02
So like that tells me that they ve been around for a long time.
2
SPEAKER_02
So it s probably a good tasting water.
2
SPEAKER_02
And you want to just make sure that it s simple.
3
SPEAKER_03
Like when you look at this, it s not, they re not overcomplicating anything.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s green.
3
SPEAKER_03
So it signifies like health.
3
SPEAKER_03
It s good quality.
3
SPEAKER_03
It s glass.
3
SPEAKER_03
It says spring water at the top.
3
SPEAKER_03
Like it just go, it s about going back to simple.
3
SPEAKER_03
Like a company like this probably doesn t need an Instagram.
3
SPEAKER_03
Like we re probably not following them on Instagram.
3
SPEAKER_00
They ve been on every table on all 90 or so shows.
3
SPEAKER_00
We ve paid full price for them every time since day one.
3
SPEAKER_00
Have not gone comp.
3
SPEAKER_00
You re not over this.
3
SPEAKER_00
He talks about this every day.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like I can t hear this.
3
SPEAKER_00
No, here s the thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
Mountain Valley.
3
SPEAKER_00
But you know what?
3
SPEAKER_00
It is the best fucking water.
3
SPEAKER_02
Mountain Valley doesn t give a shit about you.
3
SPEAKER_00
They don t give a shit.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I pay full price.
3
SPEAKER_00
They don t need to give a shit about you.
3
SPEAKER_00
No, but that s actually good branding.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s my point.
3
SPEAKER_00
I pay full price because it s a phenomenal product and they do a really good job.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that s what works.
3
SPEAKER_03
It s simple.
3
SPEAKER_03
They re not overcomplicating it.
3
SPEAKER_03
They re not trying to make it about something that doesn t connect to good quality water.
3
SPEAKER_03
When I look at this, I m like,
3
SPEAKER_03
It s designer water.
3
SPEAKER_03
I like it.
3
SPEAKER_00
It d be nice if they sent me a sweatshirt or something, though.
3
SPEAKER_02
They re not going to send you a sweatshirt.
3
SPEAKER_00
A hat, even, guys.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, Jesus Christ.
3
SPEAKER_02
What makes you such an expert in this?
3
SPEAKER_02
Like, do you remember being little and, like, looking at an ad and being like, ugh, that s atrocious.
3
SPEAKER_02
I d edit it like this.
3
SPEAKER_02
Like, what s, like, an epiphany that you remember when you were little?
3
SPEAKER_02
And now almost you look back on it and you re like, OK, that was, like, kind of weird that I did that, but now it makes sense.
3
SPEAKER_03
I got a job at 14.
3
SPEAKER_03
I worked at McDonald s.
3
SPEAKER_00
Nice, same.
3
SPEAKER_00
I worked at McDonald s too.
3
SPEAKER_03
Best job ever.
3
SPEAKER_03
It s fucking great.
3
SPEAKER_03
McDonald s is great branding.
3
SPEAKER_03
It was the best job in the whole wide world.
3
SPEAKER_03
The best first job.
3
SPEAKER_03
And the reason why I got a job is to buy a brand.
3
SPEAKER_03
I bought the brightest turquoise bench jacket.
3
SPEAKER_03
And that is why I got a job.
3
SPEAKER_03
Because I wanted this bench jacket so bad.
3
SPEAKER_03
All the cool girls at school was wearing these bench jackets.
3
SPEAKER_03
And I asked my parents if I could have a bench jacket.
3
SPEAKER_03
And I was just the poor chubby kid from Scarborough.
3
SPEAKER_03
My parents were like, no, we can t afford a bench jacket.
3
SPEAKER_03
I m like, okay, well, I m gonna go buy a bench jacket.
3
SPEAKER_03
So I went and got a job.
3
SPEAKER_03
And I and that s why I got a job was to start buying brands so that I could show the world how I wanted to be categorized, classed and assessed.
3
SPEAKER_03
And it it it s been a journey to actually realize that this is what I was meant to do when I was
3
SPEAKER_03
It s like funny looking back because there was never a moment where I m like, I wanna be in branding or I even wanna be in marketing.
3
SPEAKER_03
I didn t even really understand what marketing was.
3
SPEAKER_03
But when I look back and I analyze all of the things that got me to where I am here, it s been my calling.
3
SPEAKER_03
Like I ve always understood the psychology of the brand.
3
SPEAKER_03
I tried to understand when I was young, like why is Coach not cool, but Chanel cool?
3
SPEAKER_03
And I m like, why do I want a Chanel bag so bad?
3
SPEAKER_03
But this coach bag that I bought a few years ago is not what I want.
3
SPEAKER_03
Why do we buy what we buy to show people who we are as people?
3
SPEAKER_03
And that s been my journey into branding and why I think I m the best at this.
3
SPEAKER_03
And it s... Yeah, I don t remember those individual moments, but when I look back, it s kind of been everything leading up to this point.
3
SPEAKER_03
It sounds like, though, you also have sort of like a bachelor in psychology.
3
SPEAKER_03
I went to school for English.
3
SPEAKER_03
And I ve always loved philosophy and psychology.
3
SPEAKER_03
And I ve always loved humans.
3
SPEAKER_03
Like I ve loved understanding humans and trying to dissect them and categorize them and understand them at like a really deep level so that I can almost, for lack of a better term, like serve them better as a human being.
3
SPEAKER_03
Like I can connect with them better when I understand them.
3
SPEAKER_03
So I really enjoy
3
SPEAKER_03
navigating and understanding humans, which makes me really great at what I do because I can understand like the customer for the Skinny Confidential, which is very different than the customer for Lululemon or for Yeti or for Bud Light.
3
SPEAKER_03
Like that s, that s the psychology of buying.
3
SPEAKER_03
It s like these mini brand universes where these like humans that don t exist, but if I explain them to you, like right away are who the customer is.
3
SPEAKER_03
So it s just been understanding humans and like being really good at navigating interpersonal relationships.
3
SPEAKER_00
But just on that last point, this is kind of exactly what I m trying to articulate is you just highlighted four businesses.
3
SPEAKER_00
And when you say those four, let s call them brands, immediately everyone that s listening starts to think, oh, those are different communities of humans or groups that think a certain kind of way.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like when you say the Bud Light group or the former Bud Light group and Skinny Confidential, he s like, that is not a like-minded group.
3
SPEAKER_00
But when these companies all get together and start pushing the same kind of talking points and the same kind of initiatives to completely different communities, I think that s fundamentally the mistake and the disconnect.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m not talking about like, is this the right or wrong?
3
SPEAKER_00
I m talking about from a growing your brand, doing the right thing by your business perspective, because trying to loop all of those groups in together.
3
SPEAKER_00
And listen, there s certain issues that we can all connect on and have like-mindedness on.
3
SPEAKER_00
But trying to serve the skinny confidential community the same way you would serve the Bud Light community or the Yeti community would be a drastic mistake and I think a lot of companies are doing that right now.
3
SPEAKER_03
It s the biggest issue right now in marketing and why when we talk about why Dyson is doing such a good job or why Yeti is doing such a great job is they re so focused on the next decade of what they re trying.
3
SPEAKER_03
They re trying to own an industry.
3
SPEAKER_03
They re not trying to own a moment.
3
SPEAKER_03
And when we even talk about virality, all you hear when you re in my world is, how do we get that next viral video?
3
SPEAKER_03
How do we get that next viral campaign?
3
SPEAKER_03
How do we get that 15 minutes of when we re like the silly bands or whatever of the moment?
3
SPEAKER_03
And that s a flawed way of looking at
3
SPEAKER_03
your mark, not only your marketing, but like how to position your business.
3
SPEAKER_03
Because if you re, if you re focused on being fleeting, you re not, you re not going to last.
3
SPEAKER_03
And that s not a brand like that.
3
SPEAKER_03
That s just a sale.
3
SPEAKER_02
But I think you can also apply that to creators.
3
SPEAKER_02
We see so many creators that take a hit off one video and they get this astronaut syndrome and they literally like
3
SPEAKER_02
They they they go flying and they go to the moon and it s like every single like brand wants to work with them and they become so popular.
3
SPEAKER_02
But then like two years later, you don t know where they are.
3
SPEAKER_02
They ve like died out.
3
SPEAKER_02
You can t find them anywhere.
3
SPEAKER_02
And they re almost in a way like not like, for lack of a better word, cool.
3
SPEAKER_02
because they had that one hit and there was no sustainability.
3
SPEAKER_02
It reminds me of that little guy that s like chipping the wall away, like to success.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s like small little chips is what makes you that iconic brand.
3
SPEAKER_02
Totally.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s not the like viral video that s going to be one hit wonder.
3
SPEAKER_02
It really is like slow, methodical, thoughtful, precise little moments that make up, in my opinion, a really successful brand with longevity.
3
SPEAKER_03
Well, even with what you re saying, it s relevant to break that down further because when you re talking about
3
SPEAKER_03
a brand it s not about immediate relevancy it s it s like how we can all in this room when we talk about when I when I say a brand we all like we all understand what we re kind of we re talking about.
3
SPEAKER_03
Carbone.
3
SPEAKER_03
Carbone, Yeti, Stanley Cup like Stanley Cup s a perfect example like they ve been they were like one of the original thermos brands like they re over a hundred years old and they ve really nailed quality like thermos
3
SPEAKER_03
product offerings.
3
SPEAKER_03
And when that cup took off, it didn t take off because of a marketing campaign.
3
SPEAKER_03
They looked at the market.
3
SPEAKER_03
They understood the customer.
3
SPEAKER_03
Women that are trying to drink more water want a handle.
3
SPEAKER_03
They want it cold.
3
SPEAKER_03
They want it cold.
3
SPEAKER_02
Freezing fucking cold.
3
SPEAKER_02
They re hungover.
3
SPEAKER_02
They want to grab it on their thing.
3
SPEAKER_03
And they want to put it in their car.
3
SPEAKER_03
And they want to be able to bring it with them and that it fits in their car.
3
SPEAKER_02
And they want to match the lime green to the lime shoes and the neon.
3
SPEAKER_03
They want the millennial colors.
3
SPEAKER_03
And they just did what the market wanted and the market responded and that they built the marketing team after it exploded.
3
SPEAKER_03
It wasn t a marketing ploy to do crazy well.
3
SPEAKER_03
It was they created a product that the customer wanted.
3
SPEAKER_03
And when you talk about like that one hit that a company or a creator or whoever gets like
3
SPEAKER_03
It skews your benchmark because it puts you that you should always be up here.
3
SPEAKER_03
And if you re not doing things to maintain your brand, like chasing highs and lows is not sustainable.
3
SPEAKER_01
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I think this is amazing for when I can t go to the gym and I want a quick workout.
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Everything is about gentle consistency because they know it s so much more effective than slamming your body into the ground.
4
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I can t with those classes where you re getting screamed at, and there s techno music, and they re telling you to do all these jumps and run.
4
SPEAKER_02
I just feel like it s so much cortisol, whereas weightlifting is gentle consistency, and you re building muscle.
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It s a kind of like Evlo is your own little personal training session, but for a fraction of the cost.
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SPEAKER_00
You know, I ve been in this space now, like on the other side, I guess, of dealing with talent, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like running this company.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m obviously I m doing this on a mic, but I deal with a lot of talent and I always, and I m trying to think about how much, I find it a lot of times really tragic when somebody brings us an offer or an opportunity with someone who s quote unquote gone viral and is having a moment because the exercise that I have to do running this business is think about what things look like one, two, three, four, five years down the line.
4
SPEAKER_00
And a lot of those creators that have that moment, here s what happens.
4
SPEAKER_00
A bunch of agents, a bunch of managers, they jump in because they re the hot thing of the moment, but then they start to dwindle out and those people just leave them high and dry.
4
SPEAKER_00
Not to call out any single person, but that s what happens.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so the thing I m trying to coach everybody is when I meet with someone, what does this look like four, five, six, seven, eight years down the line?
4
SPEAKER_00
Because that s where the real money is too.
4
SPEAKER_00
You can quickly monetize something.
4
SPEAKER_00
But if you don t have a plan to stay relevant over the next two to three years, you re, you re done.
4
SPEAKER_00
You re screwed.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like you can t, you don t have a career in this space and not enough, not enough people that have been, that have experience are telling young creators that.
4
SPEAKER_00
So like the goal should not be to go viral.
4
SPEAKER_00
The goal should be to have a brand over decades that you can, especially if it s a personal brand, because that s something that s going to be tied to yourself personally for the rest of your life.
4
SPEAKER_02
Joe Rogan s a great example of someone who s kept with he s stayed in line with what hit with what his he s not trying to bring on all these celebrities to like he knows that people want to see him shoot the shit with his friends talking about steak, what peptides he uses.
4
SPEAKER_02
He stayed in his lane.
4
SPEAKER_02
His brand is so strong.
4
SPEAKER_02
You know exactly what you re getting.
4
SPEAKER_02
He s he shows up in a consistent way where you d be crazy to go on expecting something else.
4
SPEAKER_02
You just know what you re getting.
4
SPEAKER_00
The way to think about it is if you looked at quote-unquote traditional celebrities, how many of them from the 80s do you still see around?
4
SPEAKER_00
Very few.
4
SPEAKER_00
Very few.
4
SPEAKER_00
I think this is just specifically to creators in the digital age.
4
SPEAKER_00
If you re not thinking about what your career looks like 10, 20, 30 years down the line, you become one of those
4
SPEAKER_00
dinosaurs from the eighties and I m not trying to pick on cheap.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
You just, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
I want you to talk about cheap and saturated.
4
SPEAKER_02
So talk about the brands that have been around and they are like very famous brands, but now they re being cheapened and saturating themselves.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh my God.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like I think it s, it s harder to find ones that are, that are doing a great job.
4
SPEAKER_01
I got the upper echelon.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like I,
4
SPEAKER_01
Louis Vuitton, why are you opening malls in the middle of nowhere United States?
4
SPEAKER_01
Gucci, why are you creating clothes that is on par with Zara?
4
SPEAKER_01
That s not your brand.
4
SPEAKER_01
The reason I was laughing when you were saying is I m constantly asking, what s the plan?
4
SPEAKER_01
Where s the plan here?
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, I don t think a lot of people have.
4
SPEAKER_00
I think a lot of people think that these moments will just continue to keep happening, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
And that s what s, but that s, that s cheap.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like that s tacky.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like you, you have to have, it s, it s mission critical to have your eye on a target and to be focused towards that target because, and Alex Hermosi makes a great message.
4
SPEAKER_01
where he talks about it in this one video about Chick-fil-A and I love it and I have to give him credit for it because it s those simple messages that really click.
4
SPEAKER_01
And he talks about with Chick-fil-A and why Chick-fil-A is such a great brand is that they re not focused on overcomplicating.
4
SPEAKER_01
They re not down one quarter and they re like, let s introduce bowls.
4
SPEAKER_01
They stick to a short menu item selection.
4
SPEAKER_01
They re focused on doing something simple really well.
4
SPEAKER_01
And they ve done a really great job for a really long time.
4
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And for us as customers, when you re a business owner, when you re sitting in the driver s seat, and I suffer from this too, but I keep going back to the Alex Ramosi message.
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What may feel repetitive to me is brand new to you.
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And six months or one year may feel like a hell of a long time to us as one as humans and as individuals.
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But to the customer and the public, when they come back to your restaurant or your business three years later, they want that consistency in your message and your offering and whatever you re providing.
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And that s why it s like, what s the plan?
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How many times have you gone to a restaurant where you had something like
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You loved.
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It s like the queso cheese sauce with the specific jalapenos with the chips and you go in a year later and you re like, can I get the queso cheese?
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And they re like, oh, we don t have it anymore.
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Why?
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Why would you take the queso cheese sauce off the thing?
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That s the best thing on the menu.
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Why would you do that?
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And they re like, oh, well, now we have like a mango pie.
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I m like, no, but I don t want the pico de gallo.
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Like, I want the cheese sauce that I had with the same experience with the margarita.
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Like, why are you?
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And they re just kind of like, oh, we took it off.
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We changed the menu.
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You re right.
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It s better to keep it simple, get really good at whatever category that you re doing and stick with it.
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And it does sometimes, and I can say this is doing this podcast, like it feels sometimes that you maybe are talking about the same thing over and over, but you are right.
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It s brand new to people that are just discovering it or it s people are coming back for the same thing.
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Like you said, there s so many amazing things about this, but one of the things that I think is a struggle for many people is it s provided endless options and people feel they need to take every option.
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They need to take every fork in the road.
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Prior to the existence of this kind of technology, if you were building a business,
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let s say even travel, you were probably building it in a specific area with a very specific customer base and you couldn t move and you couldn t leave and so you got really good at doing one thing very, very well.
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And this is like, okay, I nailed that.
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Instead of doubling down on that and doing it even better, let me jump to the next thing and start over.
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And I think that happens not
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just with brands, but it happens with dating, it happens with so many things, people just feel like they have endless options and because of that they feel pressure to take all of those options.
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But you should be obsessive with improvement, like it s not about becoming complacent, it s that what feels like a hell of a long time to us is like, is nothing to somebody else.
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I want to qualify though also what you re saying because there is a reality that the demands of the platform are changing.
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Like if you think back to a year ago, like doing these like
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videos when you travel weren t as big of a thing.
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And I m like, I had this moment where I m like, now I got to shoot video when I travel.
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I just had gotten really good at creating content when I traveled through photos.
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But no, but I don t go to you for that.
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I and I probably would love to see you travel.
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But when I go to your page, I wanted to see all your hot takes on all things marketing.
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True.
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So I don t even think that you need to show your travel.
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Fair.
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But what I m saying is when you re like a business looking at this, like the business does have to evolve as far as like how how the world is changing through digital media.
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Like Ralph Lauren.
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It s like a coffee shop now.
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And that s not what it started at.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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You have to like.
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That s a good fucking coffee, but I think well, I think Ralph was smart.
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I can t you know, no I m saying that that s a good thing really I ve taken the evolution in a way where it s but also how long is Ralph Lauren been around 20 years longer than Forever so it s evolved true.
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And that s that s what I m saying is you can evolve
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It s so complicated because I don t want one thing I say to be taken.
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What we re saying is evolving, but you have to come back to simple.
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You have to come back to the core principles.
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And I call it a lesson from the classics.
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do what they do really well.
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And when it comes to my brand, you re right.
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I m not interested in telling you how to video edit.
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I m not interested in telling you how to create ads.
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That s really not my skill set.
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Like my skill set is to look at like a 50,000 foot view and say, that was a really bad idea.
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What were you thinking?
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Or let s do this.
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This really makes sense for this customer base.
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Let s create a coffee shop.
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Let s call it Ralph s.
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Let s bring down the brand.
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So it s approachable in a way that still makes sense, but raises the status because we want to create content while we re in their coffee shop.
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Makes sense.
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But
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What brands should also be cognizant of is overcomplicating when that doesn t make sense for their core customer wants.
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And when you re Chick-fil-A, you don t need to introduce bowls.
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And that s why Chick-fil-A is universally loved.
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And there s lineups everywhere you go.
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They have great customer service, simple offering, and they nail fried chicken.
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People love fried chicken, offer fried chicken.
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In and out.
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In and out.
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Fantastic.
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Fantastic.
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You know what I would like to see, though, for you to travel?
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I d love for you to travel to hotels and dissect the branding.
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Go in a hotel and tell me who s doing it right and who s doing it wrong.
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See, I feel like you can also flip it on its head.
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If everyone s doing travel stuff, like I feel like you can take what everyone s doing and put it in a blender and blend it up and do it your own way and do your own take on it.
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Totally.
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But speaking of simplifying, and I don t want to dumb down any message, but I really feel personally, this is my personal take, that so many people struggle with marketing.
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because they have no idea what their customers are actually coming to them for consistently.
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And they have a really solid group of customers that love a specific offering from them.
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And instead of looking at that group and saying, hey, there s probably other people that are going to love this specific offering that these people already love.
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They go, great, got them.
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Let s go on 18 other crusades and side missions that have nothing.
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I think about a video game, all these side missions that have nothing to do with what people are coming to you for.
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And all of a sudden you re on this big tangent and the people that you had that love your thing and you lost them are like, what the fuck am I doing here anymore?
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Like, this is not this is not what I came here for.
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And then you lose everybody.
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Yes.
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But I also I hate the word marketing because
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Also, what is marketing?
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So many people that don t understand marketing also don t understand business fundamentals.
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And there s also often core issues with customer service, back-end experience, operations.
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When you use the word marketing as a blanket term, it really is how your business operates.
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And that s another complicated arm of this is that
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You have to understand the plan.
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What s the plan?
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Who s your customer?
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What are your goals?
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And how is everything that you re doing work within that framework?
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Because when you don t have a plan, a proper structure, or a way to properly appreciate your customer base, that s when you...
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It just, it goes wrong.
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Cause even what you re saying, like if you truly understand your business and you really have a great handle on marketing, you re not worried about people who aren t buying from you.
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Like that, that shouldn t matter.
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Imagine this.
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Imagine if I was, say the four of us were going to go out to dinner tonight.
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I m like, Hey, I m going to take you to this great steakhouse.
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We love it.
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We re going to go there.
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And we sat down at the table and we re like, we re all getting a great steak.
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We re going to get a drink.
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We re pumped on this.
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And right away the menu was like, listen about this social, economical, political issue before you dive into the food and order your drink.
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I d be like, what the fuck are you talking about?
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I mean, I came here for the steak, but this is exactly what these companies are doing.
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This is what they re doing.
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So I m using the restaurant analogy because everybody listening would think in that situation, what the hell is going on here?
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I came here for a steak.
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And what these companies are doing is like, I came here for a sweater.
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Now I m getting this.
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I came here for a drink.
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I m getting this.
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And it s these, these people are losing the plot because they re not reading the room of what the people are actually coming to them for.
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And that s not to say you can t stand for something.
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It s just, you have to read the room and understand why people are there in the first place.
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My favorite question is when someone says, I really want to start a blog, Lauren, but I only have 30 followers.
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I m like, okay, then cater to the 30 followers.
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Take the 30 followers that you have and let them be the influencers.
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Let each of those 30 followers go out to dinner with 15 of their girlfriends and go tell 15 of their girlfriends.
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People are also missing that the actual influencer isn t the podcaster or the huge person with millions of followers.
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It s the customer.
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And when you understand that the customer, that the 30 followers that you have is gonna go out to happy hour with all her friends and get drunk and be like, that is the best fucking ice roller for when you re hungover.
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That s how you grow.
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It s not through getting more, more, more.
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It s serving, and you say this all the time, it s serving who you already have and letting them be the soldiers.
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I think that a lot of people are missing that too.
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Boy, yes.
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Don t let me forget also what you said, too, because I ve got a really great example.
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This is the him and her show, so we just step in how we want to step in.
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No, I love it.
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I love it.
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Well, OK, well, the first point of what you said is like when someone is saying, I ve got 30 followers and I want to start a blog, like my first my first kind of question is, well, why do you want to start a blog?
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And if it s and if it s because you re really passionate about it, then just do it and the followers will come.
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Just do it really well.
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The second point to what you re saying is something I m actually going to make a video on because
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Again, it s back to that simple message that clicks.
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Think about when we go out for dinner.
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The only reason why we go out for dinner is to tell stories.
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If you and I are girlfriends and we re going out for dinner, I m telling you about either our shared friends, we re talking about them, we re talking about the great Pilates class I had last week, great place they went for dinner, cute things I saw online.
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We re sharing stories.
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No, no, you girls are talking shit, that s what you re doing.
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We re talking about how small all the guys  dicks are.
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You girls are talking shit.
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Yeah, we are, we are.
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But the, we re telling stories.
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So like you have to just say something interesting, provide something interesting or a service or product that improves their life, that they want to talk about you at that dinner meeting.
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So just whatever you re doing, do it great so that you are brought up at that dinner topic.
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And that s like what you were saying too about if we were to go out for dinner and they gave us like a PETA announcement of how these animals were treated before they serve our steak.
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I went to Lululemon recently and there s a, their running ambassador is obese.
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Like their running ambassador is obese.
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And this is a fitness, like, and this is not, this is not a fat shaming statement.
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This is not saying that you cannot work out to improve your life.
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But why is a running ambassador someone that, that can t run?
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And like, why are we in this place in this, in the world where we need to please
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people that aren t the right figureheads for the message we re trying to share.
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And we re trying to please everyone.
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When you please everyone, you actually please nobody.
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Because there s a space to be inspirational for those who need inspiration.
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But I don t believe that that s Lululemon s brand.
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Also, do people not realize that
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There s an undertone and an intuition of the customer that feels that people are just doing things to check a box.
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That s the most interesting.
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The person who maybe is out of shape that walks in and sees that ad, they re going to feel uncomfortable with that.
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There s the counter argument to say that maybe that s showing representation.
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Here s the thing,
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I think if that is the customer base that the brands are trying to cultivate, that is one thing.
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But if it s just doing it because you want to appease everybody in the world that happens to pass by that store, that s the wrong way to market your brand.
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And I would agree with you.
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But if you if you I dug into it and if you dug into it a bit further, they go on to say that that this is a like almost like she s a marathon runner.
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And it s disingenuous because it there s a space.
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There s a space for a message that s inspirational for people who need it.
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Like there s people who are going into Lululemon to start their fitness and workout journey.
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And there s a way to do it.
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But then there s also a way to do it where we re talking about marketing and we re like, why are we here?
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Like, this doesn t make sense.
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Like, why are we, we re so used to this, that example that you gave us where we re at a steakhouse, we re ready to order a steak, and then they re trying to tell us that we should be vegans.
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And it s those moments where we re like, when did this happen?
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And we go back to the example of like Rome, when that person sitting on the soapbox was like, this is the bread for Romans.
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They weren t overcomplicating, but we re having this conversation.
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We re trying to figure out what they were trying to say with this marketing message.
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It s too complicated.
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And all the three of us all have different opinions and it shouldn t be that simple.
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It should just be the best workout company in the world.
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Like they became famous for making a ridiculous statement that overweight people shouldn t wear leggings.
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Like that s why Blue Lemon became famous.
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It s like Victoria s Secret.
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The same thing.
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It s like why is Victoria s Secret now trying to say that we didn t make
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billions of dollars by putting supermodels on a runway in lingerie and now they ve lost the people that actually wanted to support a runway because they re trying to please people that never were actually customers in the first place and it s it s not it s this isn t fat shaming this isn t
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This isn t being disagreeable, it s a reality that we re trying to please too many people and when you try to please people you really get nobody.
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Again, I ll use podcasting as an example.
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I always tell people that are doing a show, if you re trying to play the middle of the road all the time you end up
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reaching nobody.
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But I ll pick on Bud Light a little bit here just because I think everybody can look at that as an example of maybe marketing gone wrong.
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Again, not making a commentary on any kind of social issue, but they had a certain customer base that they ve had and cultivated for hundreds of years, right?
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And that was loyal to them.
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And let s just make the blanket statement that maybe that customer base was not.
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So inviting or excited about the campaign they decided to go into so what happened was.
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The issue to campaign to go into a new customer base that was arguably maybe never ever their customer base or going to be their customer base.
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But if someone s listening and they don t know what you re talking about, lay it on the table.
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There s a Dylan Mulvaney, is that the name?
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That s the campaign.
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And so they went for, they tried to get new customers or new people that they probably couldn t get in the first place as a brand.
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And while doing that, they completely alienated the customer base they did have.
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So at the end of the day, listen, I don t know where they re at now, but, and I m sure not in a great place, but they ended up to your point,
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alienating everybody, which was a mistake from a business perspective, from a stock price perspective, from a selling perspective.
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Now, again, if they felt compelled that they had to do this, fine, but I think companies need to be aware, and this goes back to what I was saying, is people are not reading the room as to who they re talking to, what their customers want from them,
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You know, I think it s okay to not be for everybody.
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Like, I know, like, there s a lot of people that are gonna listen to this show, maybe this episode even, and say, like, this guy is not for me.
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I don t like him.
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I don t ever want to hear him again.
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I don t want to see him.
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That s their prerogative.
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That s their option.
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But I can t then try to be like, please come back and listen.
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I gotta, I gotta speak to the people that are here for the message that I m sharing.
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Or interested in hearing, like, or just hearing what you have to say.
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Like, the, the, the Bud Light in Dillamalvania is, it s, is worth speaking about because it, it s, it also goes to what I m saying about Lululemon.
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Bud Light had been sponsoring Pride parades for years.
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It wasn t that they entered into a different market.
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It s that who they selected and the message that was paid and represented by the brand didn t align with the brand period.
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And in the post that Dylan Mulvaney made, he was dressed up as Audrey Hepburn, who in Breakfast at Tiffany s is a abused woman.
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He is saying or she is saying in the video that she doesn t know what March Madness is.
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She s making fun of people that drink beer during March Madness, which is when beer tends to be consumed is during social gatherings.
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It s a it s a lower percentage alcohol.
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So you tend to drink more.
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And during March Madness, it s a longer game.
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So you re drinking over a longer period of time.
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And it completely missed the point on the brand.
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It wasn t supporting
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a pride parade or someone that was pro March Madness.
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And she doesn t even like beer it sounds like.
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And she doesn t even like beer.
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So it was a knock on also the customer base that they did have who loves beer.
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It was a it was a knock on how beer is consumed.
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It was a knock on who consumes beer.
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It wasn t it wasn t even supporting or advocating for women like Audrey Hepburn is is a is a figurehead for where women have come from and we ve
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We iconize it because Audrey Hepburn was fabulous and it was a great movie, but many people haven t watched Breakfast at Tiffany and they don t realize how dark the movie actually is.
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So to be dressed up in that costume, representing trans rights by saying you are a female in that costume, and then to make fun of where beer is consumed did not make sense for the brand.
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And it s,
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It s one thing to say in a simple way that Bud Light and LGBTQ rights may not make sense from a brand alignment perspective.
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But it s another when you just make an absolute error on the way in which you re executing.
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Because now the three of us are confused on what even Bud Light was trying to do.
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And that s what I m saying with Lululemon as well is I don t know what they stand for.
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I don t know what they re trying to convey.
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And I don t know who their customer is.
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And that s a problem.
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Bud Light should have hired you.
6
SPEAKER_00
Well, the problem is, I think, again, like, back to keeping it simple, and again, like, this is not to be charred, I mean, again, people on the internet are wild, but I think all of these things are worth being studied because, to your point,
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I think a lot of people are very confused amongst a lot of brands on what many of these brands stand for, which is fine.
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Listen, you re going to pivot, you re going to change, you re going to get interested in different things.
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I get that.
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So do we.
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But if everybody s confused all the time, you re just going to over time diminish and kill the business.
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But don t you guys think that there s also a micro moment of this where there s influencers that feel like that they have to placate to everyone and they have to get everyone and they have to create all the content and oh they re doing wellness fitness now they have to do beauty.
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I also feel like this is also trickling down to personal brand and people and I think that s a conversation that should be talked about too because
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So I think Melissa Wood Health is a beautiful example of someone who s shown up every day and like she s done her workout.
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She showed you like her smoothie that she s eating.
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It s like wellness, wellness, wellness.
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It s consistency.
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I know exactly what to expect when I go to her page.
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But there s a lot of influencers that try to just because everyone s doing this, they do this or everyone s doing this trend.
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They hop on this and it s confusing and the message is hard to digest for the consumer that s consuming the influencers content.
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I think it s also it s not just big brand.
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Quick break to talk about one of our
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Our longest running show partners, one of our favorite services, one of our favorite brands, and that is Thrive Market.
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Thrive Market has been our go-to for all of our grocery and household essentials for years now.
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I think since the history of this show, we might be going on seven, eight years running using Thrive Market.
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OG listeners will remember.
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that they played a huge part in the early years of this show as one of our first partners, and we ve continued to work with them because we love their service so much.
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I love that Thrive Market carries brands with the highest quality ingredients and sourcing methods.
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They restrict hundreds of ingredients across their food and cleaning categories, and I can use their onsite filters to suit my lifestyle needs.
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So whether you re looking for organic kid snacks, low sugar alternatives, or gluten-free pantry essentials, you can curate your own shopping experience.
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Lauren and I
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For years, I ve been using this service to find all of the healthiest, all of the cleanest, all of the best ingredients.
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We recently just had dinner with Mark Sisson, who s the founder of Primal Kitchen, and we were both talking about how great Thrive Market s been as a company and as a partner for so long.
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Outside of finding the best products, best ingredients, and saving some money, you are also helping a family in need with their one-for-one membership matching program.
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They ve done this for years.
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It s an incredible program.
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You can join and they give.
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So check out one of the best brands and best services on the market.
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Join in on the savings with Thrive Market today and get 30% off your first order plus a free $60 gift.
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Go to thrivemarket.com slash skinny for 30% off your first order plus a free $60 gift.
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That s thrivemarket.com slash skinny thrivemarket.com slash skinny.
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We are far from perfect, but we try to be thoughtful.
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You don t think I m perfect?
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We try to be thoughtful in what we share, and not only what we share, but how we share it.
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If I m going to comment on something, I m not going to repost what everybody else... I want to be thoughtful about the message that s coming from me specifically.
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Does that make sense?
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Totally.
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And I think a lot of people, they have this knee-jerk reaction of, shit, am I going to be late?
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Am I going to do it in time?
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Am I going to catch flack if I don t do it?
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All of that.
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And we ve seen this in all sorts of different areas.
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And they re not actually thoughtful.
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So again, nobody really knows what you actually mean.
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Are you aligning with a certain side or the other?
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Do you believe that?
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Do you not?
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Tell me what you actually think, if you really think something.
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And if not, maybe it s time to sit back and reflect and stay out of it.
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I saw somebody post the other day.
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There was a guy, and I won t name him, but he was getting some flack for not
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sharing about something that was going on in the world.
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And he had a very elegant response.
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He said, you know, I ve made it a habit for his business and brand to not comment on something that he knows absolutely nothing about.
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And I wish more people did that, or at least skipped a beat and took the time to learn and be thoughtful about the things that they choose to share about.
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Does that make sense?
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I completely agree with that but I would, I won t even go a step further and say I would rather people, you want people to speak and to think with intention.
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Like I think that s important when you re not able to have a conversation and that s the problem with social media is you put out three sentences and it lacks context.
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Right.
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And that s where it is difficult when you re in your guys s chairs.
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But I also think that on what I really respect that you guys do and I want more people to do is to actually say what they think.
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And I think that s another really frustrating place for where I am and the conversations that I want to have is I want to have discussions that are difficult and I don t
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I don t assume that I m perfect.
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Like I want to enter into them to actually have a discussion and to potentially disagree and to come out of it without thinking I m only right, but finding a way to shape and to change my opinion.
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And even when we re talking about the Dylan Mulvaney with the Bud Light,
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I was really afraid to put that video out because I was afraid of kind of the facelessness of the internet.
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And the only people that were horrible were truly were not Bud Light s customers.
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And I ve had this conversation with so many people and those who were so passionate about, this is crazy.
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People are disgusting.
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The fact that the shareholders tanked and Kid Rock did this, like, this is gross.
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I can t believe it.
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Like, this is archaic.
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And I m like, are you their customer?
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You know, like, why does this matter to you?
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Like, are you someone that s actually buying from it?
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Or are you just standing on a principle for somebody else?
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And I had an enormous amount of transgender people reach out after that video, like privately, because I didn t want to post a comment.
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Like an enormous amount that were like, we re so thankful that actually someone spoke for us because that message actually didn t even represent our community.
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And I think that that s why it
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a part of me doesn t like to be disagreeable and to be in the hot seat to say it but we have to have these conversations because they can t happen behind closed doors.
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I also think there has to be fluidity of people to be able to change their mind.
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Yes.
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Because I said five days ago that I love you know meat cooked medium doesn t mean today I can t say you know what I changed my mind.
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I like a raw
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Steak tartare.
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And that s great about your brand.
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I think that there is no space for people to have flexibility of mindset shift.
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We re unapologetic about sharing our truthful opinions with the firm also promise that if we get corrected or our minds change, we ll also share that.
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Does that make sense?
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Yeah.
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Like, I think it s very, you know, like we talk to so many different people and
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I m hearing your perspective.
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Somebody may come on next week and share a different perspective and change my mind or at least give me a different perspective.
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Like, oh, I didn t think about that before, but I can t, I can t be in a position where I m scared all the time to actually voice what I m thinking in the moment or at the time.
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Also surrounding yourself with content that maybe like, you know, you don t always agree with.
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It doesn t need to be.
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Everything doesn t need to be so agreeable.
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I think you re right about what you said about Budweiser.
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Are they the client?
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No, they re often not.
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And it s also to say that Bud Light did a bad job on that ad isn t to say you re anti-trans.
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And I think that s the other thing, too, that s really frustrating is even to say that I don t think Lou Lemon did a good job with that ambassador doesn t mean I m a fat shamer and I m anti-something.
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Isn t there an undertone that makes people feel like that?
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It s what they want.
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It s wild.
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It s what they want.
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It s wild.
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They want to cancel you.
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They want to write you off.
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And we have to have conversation, especially when we re talking about how we buy.
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Like, was it?
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Who is that actor that s like, little guy, super funny?
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Danny DeVito?
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No, he s like.
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He is a great actor and he is super funny.
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He s great.
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No, the other one.
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He s not short.
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No, the short one.
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A lot of them are short.
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Kevin Hart, because Kevin Hart did this about Lululemon.
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How dare you say that about Kevin Hart.
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No, I think Kevin Hart s hilarious, but he made this whole bit about Lululemon and he was like, why are you making me feel guilty before I even walk into the store to buy leggings?
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Why did painted on leggings become social justice issues?
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I agree with you.
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Like why do we become bad people to have this conversation when I go into Lululemon now and I m like, I don t know anymore what this brand stands for.
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Like they ve got great leggings.
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I may buy two or three things, but I m overwhelmed by how many items are in the store.
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And I, I, I feel this, I think that they re going to outlet malls, like they re going to be gone in the next five years because they ve just barfed on their brand.
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You ve barfed on the brand.
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That s the name of your book.
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You ve barfed on your brand.
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Where do you think that if our audience is listening that they can make some small tweaks in what they re doing to refine their message?
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Just little tiny things that they can do that they re listening.
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They want to do it right.
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They want to do the marketing that is simple, classic.
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What are little tiny tweaks that they can do?
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And also, maybe you can talk about paid advertisement if you believe in that.
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Okay, well I think that your first like what it really comes down to is authenticity, right?
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Like we re we are so hungry for authentic connection through the digital world that it s the best time to be truly you and what that means changes for each person.
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So trying to be
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I see so much in marketing that it s very templated and it s very hard for me to get to know who the person that s selling is.
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And it s tough for your question because really your approach to marketing should be specific to what you re trying to sell and what your goals are.
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are, like what the plan is.
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But if you re someone that is selling a service, it should be really authentic and true to you and it should feel very genuine and it should feel a bit uncomfortable because being authentic in an interaction that you can t control is intimidating and overwhelming.
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So being authentic, being true to you, trying to find a way that is uncomfortable but still
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Even I would say you can live with but like I almost want to like beat you up and because most people are so good at what they do and they re so bad at marketing themselves because the best or the worst at marketing themselves.
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So getting uncomfortable is where you re going to succeed.
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Paid ads, yes.
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I mean, at the end of the day, you re in a numbers game, so you need reach.
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But what that reach means changes for each person.
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Like what you talked about earlier, if your goal is just to have a really successful blog, you don t need a million eyeballs.
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But if you re selling
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this bottle of water having 30 customers isn t the same.
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Right.
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So paid ad strategy makes sense.
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What s so cool about the digital world is that it s never been easier to advertise at an audience that you can that you can sizably range.
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So we work with businesses that for them success is a million dollars.
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We work with companies for them success is a billion dollars.
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Right.
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And that kind of that changes the range in which you launch the ad and you run the ad and you run the creatives.
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But
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What I do want people to be more focused on is it doesn t, to be successful, you don t require an insane marketing budget.
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And that s what s so cool about 2023 is like the camera on your iPhone is so powerful.
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For the most part, we really want to buy through like organic UGC content that you re seeing through your eyes.
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So if you re in a product industry, selling products like for three second clips, showing different ways to use it, using storytelling is what s going to work best.
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And trying things out, like test, test, test, and test.
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You no longer have to have a half a million dollar TV ad that s going to be perfect that you need to run on TV with a million dollar ad spend.
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You can create an ad in two hours and run it for $25 and see how it performs.
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It s creating content, it s focusing on what your goal is and creating things that make sense for what your outcome is going to be because that s another issue is that I see a whole lot of shit.
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So like there s like they re testing 10 ads but they re just like 10 different varieties of garbage.
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Like think about if you re constantly inundated with buy, buy, buy, buy, buy messages, what s actually going to peak your interest?
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Like what s going to get you to stop?
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What s actually going to make you look?
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And if you can come up with three different versions of that idea and run it with $25, you re golden.
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Michael used to do Facebook advertising back in the day and you told me that there was this one weird ad that like hit and it was like the woman with like bad lighting in her bathroom
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Well, I think like, I mean, this is like early days and stuff.
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I, yeah, I think like,
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I mean, I m sure it s changed and I ve been out of that world for so long, but it was like it was always the stuff that would hit for us is the stuff we never expected to hit.
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It was like the stuff that was like not polished.
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It was not polished.
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It was not fancy.
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It was relatable.
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It was stuff that people would scroll.
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Yeah, people would scroll past it and feel like they just like stumbled on a feed post.
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Real, but not fake chaotic real like some people do.
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That s another thing you got like fake manufactured chaos to make it look like it s real.
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real in the real sense of the word real and that s even like again just to preface again the Lululemon comics I know people are going to come for me like be real like I m not asking for you to have like supermodels that that are that may do yoga on the weekends like use real people it works but just real to your brand like let s
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What s the plan?
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Again, like the reason I find this conversation interesting.
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Well, there s a bunch of reasons, but like, I don t think this is a commentary on what we believe people should be doing or not doing personally or what they, you know, what s socially acceptable or unacceptable.
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I think it s a study on like what is actually working for businesses and marketing and what is not.
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And like for me,
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And especially in the role that you re in, if my job is to say, let s drive long-term success for a business, these are conversations that need to be brought to light because I think we re in an interesting time where people and brands are especially confused about what they should talk about, when they should talk about it, how they should talk about it, what issues they should jump into, which issues they should stay out of.
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Again, what their customers want from them and don t want from them.
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And it s something that I think it s new, right?
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This landscape has changed and things move really fucking fast.
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And I can understand the fears that people running these organizations have for taking missteps.
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But again, going back to authenticity, you re like, hey, that didn t work for us.
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That was a misstep.
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I think people are understanding.
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It s when you go too far down the other side and you re like, I m just doing a bunch of shit to see what sticks.
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That s when people are like, what the fuck s
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Or if you re fearful and you re just trying to like, you re trying to fight the fear and you re not actually being authentic with what you actually believe.
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You re just trying to check a box.
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People can feel it.
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Totally.
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I also, like I, this David Ogilvy quote I live by is people tell you what they feel, not what they think.
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And so many businesses are, are, are missing the forest for the trees because
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They re so focused on what they think people are feeling opposed to what they re really thinking.
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And you get a very different answer.
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So this great book I read on… I forget the name of it, but I can get it to you.
8
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I was just thinking about alchemy and marketing.
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And he talks about how there was a…
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a big telecommunication company and they were, Ogilvy was rebranding them.
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And people were really pissed off.
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You know how like in the mornings or in the evenings you get those like windows for like when the service call is going to show up?
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And how pissed off people were for the service call because they felt like they were handcuffed to like not being able to like go to get groceries or like go into the shower because the moment they went into the shower is when the like service provider was going to show up.
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And they were, so what people were saying or they were feeling is that they wanted to have like a specific window, like an exact like hour range so they knew how to control their morning if they were going to take the day off work.
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But it was actually impossible for a massive telecommunication company to give the exact appointment slot of when the service provider was going to show up because there s so many factors that went into the daily service calls that they couldn t actually tell you when the person was going to show up.
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So what people actually thought was that they would prefer just to have some kind of indication.
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So what they did instead of
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spending billions of dollars in the long run to hire more service providers to give you a specific window is they just send a text message update, and AAA does this, and CAA does this, where they ll let you know on your roadside assistance that your service person will be there five minutes from now.
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That simple technological solution fixed actually what people were feeling, but more what they were thinking, which they weren t actually saying when they were pissed off in their reviews and the sentiment of when they were calling.
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And that s why Uber designed their screen to actually tell you when the Uber driver was showing up.
8
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Because the most frustrating part for when you hired a taxi before Uber is you didn t know when the taxi driver was gonna show up.
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So now by seeing it on Uber, you don t actually really care if it s 10 minutes.
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You know that it s 10 minutes.
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And you can track it on the map.
8
SPEAKER_02
So- They took it a step further and they added the don t talk to me thing.
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Because then people were like, well, I don t wanna get in a car and pay for my time and have someone talk my ear off.
8
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opposed to hiring taxi drivers that just didn t want to talk to you.
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They just give you the input to say, this is actually, and it kind of goes to what you re saying of like, it s not what people, people feel and what they think are two very different things.
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And I think we as a society have become really, we re changing for the better, I hope.
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And I think we are more kind.
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like we want to be more, I don t, I don t meet too many people that I find are horrible on the face of it.
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And I think a lot of the headlines are, it s, it s the clickbait.
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It s, it s feeding into the society is going to a horrible place.
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But I think for the most part, we re changing for the better and we need to move away from what we actually think people want opposed or what they feel people want opposed to what they actually want.
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Arnold Schwarzenegger just did a post today and he was like, I m going to paraphrase it and it s not
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exactly what he said, but the essence of it was, don t forget that sometimes the loudest, angriest voices on the internet are very small pockets of society.
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And if you go out into the real world and take your head out of a screen and actually try to find those people in real life, it s hard to find them.
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Most people
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are kind and accepting and are just trying to live their best life and get through, you know, they have their own.
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I don t think you re a horrible person.
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Yeah.
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And so it is like, I think again, this is a really great tool and you can be used for a lot of things, but if you get so sucked into it, which again, I think a lot of these companies do, you forget that the majority of people are mostly reasonable, kindhearted people that are just trying to do the best that they can do in their own lives.
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And it doesn t cost anything to leave a really angry and mean comment.
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It doesn t cost the same as me looking in your face and being like, I think you re a horrible human being.
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Especially from a troll, faceless account.
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Yeah.
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And I think it s like Scott Galloway that talks about this.
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We should have passports to create social media accounts so that you re at least held to an identity so that you cannot create these bots to just leave horrible comments on people s pages.
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I feel like a lot of the bots are your ex-girlfriends.
9
SPEAKER_00
But controversial character, but like to Elon s credit on I guess what s now X, the reason he s going through all this verification process, which is now many of the platforms are doing, is to that point exactly.
9
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He s like, listen, you could say whatever you want, but at least like show who you are and don t have a bunch of different troll accounts that are spamming people.
9
SPEAKER_02
So that companies aren t shutting things down and canceling when that s actually not what people want.
9
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
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Like there s a feature now on X where you can only get replies from verified accounts.
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SPEAKER_00
And some people don t like that feature, but it s basically if you want that as a creator or a brand, it means the person that are commenting is like they ve been actually verified to be that person or that business, which I think is a good feature, especially if you re a business and you re like, okay, I want like real feedback, authentic feedback.
9
SPEAKER_01
Camille, you founded Third Eye Insights.
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Where can everyone find you?
9
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Pimp yourself out.
9
SPEAKER_01
Tell us about your TikTok, what you re working on, your website, all the stuff.
9
SPEAKER_01
I could talk to you for a long time if I didn t have to go back to my nanny.
9
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I could have talked to you for another hour, to be honest.
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You ll have to come back on next time you re here.
9
SPEAKER_01
Where can everyone find you?
9
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Pimp yourself out.
9
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I think the best place is my TikTok.
9
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My name is Camille Moore.
9
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Third Eye Insights is the agency, which is really bomb, but the algorithm doesn t love learning from a team of faces.
9
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It really likes a siloed individual.
9
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So if you want to learn more about my thoughts and you like what I ve got to say,
9
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Camille Moore is a great way to find me on Instagram and TikTok.
9
SPEAKER_01
Thank you so much for coming on.
9
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I think that that was such a colorful conversation.
9
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I loved it.
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SPEAKER_01
I hope you guys loved it.
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The comments will be riveting.
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Come back on anytime next time.
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Two things before you go.
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You can watch us now on YouTube.
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So you can go on YouTube, search the Skinny Confidential and watch our entire episodes on your computer or TV.
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Also, you should know Michael and I are doing a Him and Her newsletter.
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So basically, it s a Him and Her tip of the day, five days a week.
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And the tips are very specific, as you can imagine.
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And then we also have a monthly favorites.
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So basically, we collect all our monthly favorites, everything we ve bought and used and tried and put it in one monthly newsletter for you.
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To subscribe to the Him and Her tip newsletter, all you have to do is go to tscpodcast.com.
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That s tscpodcast.com.