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 This is episode number 1231 with best-selling author, Vanessa Van Edwards.
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Welcome to the School of Greatness.
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My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur.
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And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness.
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Thanks for spending some time with me today.
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Now let the class begin.
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 Welcome back, my friend.
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I am pumped and excited about today's episode.
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Our guest today is Vanessa Van Edwards, who is the lead investigator at Science of People and is the best-selling author of Captivate, The Science of Succeeding with People.
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Vanessa works with entrepreneurs, growing businesses,
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 and trillion-dollar companies.
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She is renowned for teaching science-backed people skills to audiences around the world, where her mission is to help introverts leverage their strengths, show high achievers how to activate their secret skills, and teach awkward people to feel more confident.
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She's written a new book called Cues, Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication,
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 And in this episode, we dive in deep on how to master this.
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All about how to instantly create trust and reliability.
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What Vanessa learned from analyzing over 490 Shark Tank pitches of what works and what doesn't work.
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The difference between charisma and narcissism.
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The fascinating research about social cues and how to use them and so much more.
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This is the type of conversation that I,
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 Nerd out on.
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I love this stuff.
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I love studying people, understanding people, what makes people tick, all that stuff.
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So if you love this as well, make sure to share this with someone that you think would be inspired by this.
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LewisHowes.com slash 1231.
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Copy and paste that link, share it out to your friends over text or over social media or post it anywhere.
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And make sure to tag me and Vanessa Van Edwards as well over on Instagram stories if you're posting over there.
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 Big thank you to our fan of the week this is from patty jolly who said i started listening to your podcast show at the beginning of january and i have found myself listening to each podcast twice writing all the information buying books and feeling super motivated i'm so grateful for this podcast and it is changing my life thank you so patty
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 Big thank you for being a new subscriber, being a fan, leaving a review over on Apple Podcast.
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You are the fan of the week, and we appreciate you.
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We're grateful that you want to listen to each episode twice.
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I know there's a lot of information sometimes.
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I go back and check out stuff a lot because there's so much I'm consuming.
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 But big thank you, and if this is your first time here or you have yet to subscribe or leave a review, then make sure to subscribe right now on Apple Podcasts.
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Leave a review for your chance to be shouted out as a fan of the week as well.
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Okay, in just a moment, the one and only Vanessa Van Edwards.
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 Well, welcome back, everyone, to The School of Greatest.
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We've got Vanessa Van Edwards in the house.
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Good to see you.
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We are talking all things Master of the Secret Language of charismatic communication.
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I think the facial cues we give people really put off a lot of if we can trust someone, if we can't trust someone, if someone's interested, if they're enrolled, if they're unenrolled, all these different things.
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 For 20 years, I had four missing teeth.
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When I was, I guess I was 16 and a half, I got eight teeth removed, four wisdom and then four more on the sides.
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For many years, 20 years of my life, I had these gaps, right?
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And so I'd always smirk kind of on the side to kind of hide it.
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 And I don't know if that helped me or hurt me.
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And you're like, no, it didn't.
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So I would smile big, but then I would kind of like half smirk sometimes.
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I've seen your smirk.
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And after, my book cover too is kind of like just smiling, but it's a big smile, but it's not a showing the teeth smile.
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It's true.
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Is it better to smile without teeth or with teeth in order to enroll people in you as a human being to get anything you want in your life?
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 What research found is that a real smile, whether it shows teeth or not, the biggest difference is it has to reach up here.
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The eyes.
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The upper cheek muscles, actually.
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So those eye crinkles.
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I do that a lot, though.
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I feel like I squint a lot.
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Yeah, you got a little smizing, right?
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So that's actually the only cue we're looking for.
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So it actually does not matter.
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So if you have a profile picture, a dating profile picture, a LinkedIn profile picture, I either want you neutral
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 or with eye crinkles.
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The worst is sort of that in between.
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Now, I don't mind like a soft up mouth, right?
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You and I both have this in our book covers, a soft up mouth, but it has to engage those upper cheek muscles.
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What Dr. Barbara Wild found is that when they showed pictures of people with the fake smile and a real smile, the real smile was contagious.
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So when people looked at the real smile, they themselves felt happier.
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When they looked at the fake smile, they felt no mood change.
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 Interesting.
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So the reason why that's important is I think that we think about like, oh, I want to show up I want to be really my most confident self, but we don't realize is that our cues are contagious Yes, that if you show authentic happiness, you are more likely to infect happiness.
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Actually, there's one more face cue.
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I want to talk about so This is the cue that sort of started me on this crazy journey and it got me I'm a recovering awkward person as you know, so there's a lot of really introvert awkward person social anxiety all the good things so
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 So this story gave me so much relief.
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What they found was if you are in a room and someone gives you a cue of social rejection.
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What does that look like?
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Okay, so social rejection, eye roll, a sigh.
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 looking away.
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Right, looking away, distancing behavior, when we pull our head back and like, when I angle my head back, you know I've just disengaged from you.
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Crossing arms.
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Crossing arms, sudden nonverbal rejection.
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Is this turning feet also?
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Turning, yes.
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Oh, we can talk about feet.
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Okay, we can talk about feet.
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Hands and feet.
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You know what's interesting?
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I look at the hands and feet all the time.
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I can't remember if I got this from you years ago.
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It's like looking at the hands and seeing, are they in the pocket?
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Are they out of the pocket?
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Yes.
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 But go ahead, we'll get back to that.
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Okay, so social rejection cues, and you know this.
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If you're in a business meeting and you suddenly feel like, am I disliked?
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He doesn't like this, she doesn't like this.
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When we see a cue of social rejection, our field of vision increases.
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We see wider.
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We literally see wider.
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Our pupils dilate, so we see more.
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 The reason why that study was like a light bulb for me was our cues are affecting others' physiology.
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Our physiology can change in a room in an instant if we walk into a meeting and we feel not liked, if we feel rejected, if we feel like we're being judged.
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 Our own physiology responds.
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So if we're in a room and we're not feeling confident in our control and someone sends us a cue of rejection, one, you wanna know what those are because it makes your field of vision bigger so you can see who else is sending me a cue, what's my escape route.
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That's literally what your body's trying to do.
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Ups your adrenaline, ups your cortisol.
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And no one can think well.
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Adrenaline, cortisol.
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That's why in a meeting, it can go downhill so quickly.
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You're in a presentation, you prepare it all week.
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 And then you're like, oh, he just rolled his eyes.
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Oh, she just turned away.
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Oh, I just saw a weird foot movement.
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And then you lose your spot, you blank out, and the rest of the presentation goes badly.
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The good news is, is what Matthew Lieberman found, this is from UCLA.
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Once you label a cue, so if you say, that was an eye roll, that was a scoff of exasperation, that was a contempt smirk, the moment you label it, your amygdala calms down.
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 They've proven that when people are in fMRI machines and they show them a fearful face, so fearful faces when we widen the whites of our eyes and we raise our eyebrows up, if you're laying in an fMRI machine and you see fear, you will begin to feel afraid.
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Your amygdala begins to activate and your body goes, well, if he's afraid, I better be afraid.
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But the moment you say in the fMRI,
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 that's just fear, your amygdala stops responding.
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Interesting.
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So I think I've had a really hard time finding confidence.
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It's been a long lifetime journey.
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The way that I've sort of backdoored into confidence is control.
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If I can control the cues that are being sent to me, if I can control the cues I'm sending to others, it's a secret backdoor into confidence.
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How do you control someone else's cues?
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 you label them and respond appropriately, so.
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So you can't control how they act towards you, but you can control how you react to it, how you interpret it, how you transition afterwards.
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Yes, like you can, first by labeling it, you just controlled your own physiology.
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So if someone sends you a contempt, an eye roll, you just took control, you took control back of nope, I see it, I spot it, I'm disengaging it.
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 You know, in the vulnerability world, when you label the shame, when you speak about the shame and you bring it to the light, it becomes less scary.
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It doesn't stay stuck inside of you.
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So even just acknowledging it is a helpful tool to process shame or, I guess, fear of social rejection.
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It's the same, actually.
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So for vulnerability, yes, you're afraid, you acknowledge it, it makes it less scary.
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It's the same thing in social settings.
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Dates, professional situations, negotiates interviews, the moment you say,
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 Okay, I just heard an exasperated tone of voice, or I just saw a lid flex.
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That's the one I wanna talk about next.
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A what flex?
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I know, I know.
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A lid flex?
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A lid flex.
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Is that an eyelid?
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Yes, it is.
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Is it like a twitch or what?
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Okay, okay, so you asked, how do we control?
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Oh yeah, that's it, you just did it.
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Okay, so you know Zoolander?
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Yes.
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You know the blue steel?
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Of course.
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Okay, that is actually a lid flex, right?
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So that's a...
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 Right, it's like, if you're listening right now, harden your lower lids, and then like, mm, your lips, that's what blue steel is.
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The funny thing about this cue, it's ridiculous, I know you're like, where are you going with this?
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No, it makes sense to me, because it's like, prove me, like someone's doubting you.
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Oh, you just got it.
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Okay, so what's funny is, in fear, our eyes widen.
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So if you widen your eyes as wide as possible, so that you can see the whites, you just, I can take in way more of my environment, when we're afraid, we want to see as much as possible.
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 When we are trying to see details universally across cultures, we have to lessen the light coming into our eyes, so we squint.
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To focus.
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We focus.
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So if you were to try to see that dot over there on the wall, you harden your lower lids.
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And that is because scientifically proven, when we harden our lower lids, it reduces the amount of light and we can see more details.
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Gotcha.
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I can see the details on that camera better.
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 when I lower lid flex.
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This is why if you open People Magazine's Sexiest Man Alive, on almost every page, along with a flexed bicep, are flexed lids.
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And that is because women find a flexed lid so attractive.
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So an open lid is not sexy.
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Is it sexy?
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 No, no.
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Yes, because why?
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Women and men both want partners who are deeply scrutinizing, who are deeply looking at them.
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So if I'm sitting when talking to you and I go, oh really?
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 I just showed you, wow, that was super interesting.
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In fact, when we flex our lids, we're going from just listening to thinking deeply.
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We're literally trying to see something better.
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So if you're in a negotiation or on a date or with a friend and they go, really?
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And they harden their lower lids, you are like, ooh, ding, ding, I just hit something good.
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 And so the other way that we control cues is, okay, let's say that you're, and this actually happened to me, so this is a story I share in the book.
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I was in a meeting with a very high-powered exec team, and if the presentation went well, they were gonna invite me back for more presentations.
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So the stakes were very high, and it was a small group, and I was in a particular part of my presentation talking about chemicals, and I noticed an executive across the room fluxed his lower lids at me.
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Kind of fluxed his lower lids, he's looking at the slide, and I was like, okay, what's happening?
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He just went from listening to scrutinizing.
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 And so I paused a small group and I said, all good, any questions?
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And I literally looked right at him and I opened up my palms and I said, any questions?
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So this is the universal signal for openness.
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It literally means I want to receive.
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I'll share anything you want.
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Yes.
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It's literally like, let me receive, let me be open to you.
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And he went,
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 Yeah, you know, I do have a question.
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And at the time I was teaching about oxytocin.
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Oxytocin, I know you talk about it a lot on the show, the chemical of connection and bonding.
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He goes, I don't understand something.
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Isn't oxytocin what they give women to induce labor?
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And I'm like, you are right, sir.
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They do give oxytocin and that's because it's so powerful that it can induce labor.
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Interesting.
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But in our position, it's for social bonding.
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It was such a good teaching moment because he immediately felt heard.
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 And I know that if I hadn't addressed that concern right then and there, I would have lost him.
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He would have been like, what?
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He would have been stuck on that one slide.
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And afterwards he said to me, you know, I really feel like you were teaching to us.
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Teaching to me.
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Literally teaching to him.
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And so I think the other way that we can control accuse is we spot it and then we say, how can I honor it?
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 Like, that's the gift that we can give people is I can be sitting with someone and say, I want to listen to you so deeply.
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I want to listen to your words.
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I want to watch your facial expressions.
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I want to listen to your number.
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I want to even listen to your voice tone.
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I mean, we haven't even talked about vocal power, which here is incredibly important.
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And not only do I want to spot that, I want to respond in a way that you feel the most heard by me.
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So it's spotting and honoring.
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And by doing that, if you're in a presentation,
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 Whether you actually acknowledge the person or not, are you just saying that it'll bring you back to a more centered place so you can continue on the presentation?
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Exactly.
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It makes you feel in control of the narrative.
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It makes you feel in control of – and like even for introverts, right?
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Like introverts, it's much harder for us to share a lot of verbal content.
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So for us, I want to give you more control over the nonverbal so that when you do speak, it's more powerful.
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 Right, so if you're an introvert and you want to make sure you are reading the room really quickly so you know exactly when to say your point so it's most heard and most valued, that gives you confidence because you're not guessing.
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Yes.
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I don't like the guesswork.
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No, I don't either.
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I know.
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You see a lot of these videos online talking about
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 how charismatic someone is based on the way they smile, their eyes, the tilt of the chin, all these different things.
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Is it important to be charismatic?
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Let's talk about that first.
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Is it valuable and more important to be charismatic versus less charismatic?
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 To the point.
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Yeah, to the point or neutral energy.
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I mean, what's more valuable in society in accomplishing goals and getting what you want?
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Very charismatic or neutral?
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Neutral.
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Okay, so this is the biggest mistake I think facing really, really smart people.
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 I think really, really smart people, and this is most of my students, they're like off the charts, smart, creative, brilliant, they make the mistake of thinking, if I have enough book smarts, if I have enough technology smarts, I don't need the people smarts.
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Now, here's what research from Princeton University found.
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I'm so excited for this, because I already know what you're gonna say in a sense, yeah.
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Okay, so this study completely changed my work and changed my life.
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It was done by Dr. Susan Fisk in 2002, and since then, they've been able to replicate it and build on it and build on it, so this is very solid research.
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 which she found very highly charismatic people have to have the perfect blend of two traits.
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 And this is where it's really, this is why highly charismatic people are so unique.
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This is why we love them so much.
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To be highly charismatic, to be compelling, to be captivating, you must have a perfect blend of warmth and competence.
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We talked about this the very, very first time we met, but since then so much more has come out about it.
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Very, very smart people make the mistake of showing up as all competent.
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 They try to blow you away with their numbers and their facts and their stats and their data, but they're seen as cold.
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They're seen as intimidating.
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On the other side, you have people who are highly warm.
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They have competence, but there's not a balance.
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They show up as highly likable, highly friendly, but they're interrupted.
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 They're told that they're not being taken seriously.
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They're not credible.
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Right.
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People forget having met them before.
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And so I think that most people problems, I'm even going to say all people problems, all people problems stem from an imbalance between your warmth and competence.
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And so not only do I think that charisma is essential for being successful, I actually think it's the only way that people will be open to your competence.
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 So you can be all the book smarts in the world, you can have the highest IQ and remember everything on any test or you can be an encyclopedia of wisdom and information.
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But what I'm hearing you say, if you don't have charisma, at least some of it, then people won't take you seriously or they won't...
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 care as much or they won't be as engaged?
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It's not just engaged.
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There's two questions that humans ask themselves about the person they're with.
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And this happens immediately in every interaction.
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By the way, video too.
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We forget that this is not just in person.
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This is happening the moment you pop on video.
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It's happening the moment someone opens your LinkedIn profile.
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I did a whole bunch of research on LinkedIn profiles specifically because that's where a lot of our first impressions happen.
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Okay.
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 When people see your LinkedIn profile, when people see you on video, on Zoom, the first question they ask themselves, and it is chronological, the first question they ask is, can I trust you?
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Basic instinct, are you going to be my ally or my enemy?
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Can I trust you?
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The very second question they ask is, can I rely on you?
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 So when you're in a meeting, on a date, in a call, in a pitch, a negotiation, on LinkedIn, the two signals that you want to cue people with as quickly as possible is, yes, you can trust me and yes, you can rely on me.
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The problem is is that most professionals right now are going mute.
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So I don't know if you've noticed this, but it feels like in the last five or ten years we've gone towards ambivalence.
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 You know, we've gone towards, I'm not going to show anything.
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I'm going to be as professional and sterile as possible.
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And so we've taken out cues from all these assets.
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And then people have a really hard time trusting us.
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They have a really hard time listening to us.
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We wonder why people are slow to reply to our emails.
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It's because we're not cuing enough.
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We have to have hundreds of cues to answer those two questions.
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Interesting.
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So how do we create more trust and reliability instantly?
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 Yes.
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Okay.
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So let's talk about trust first because it is chronological.
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We have to trust someone to rely on them.
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That's why starting with your competence doesn't always work.
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So trust.
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So the very first thing, it's a weird one.
0
SPEAKER_00
It's a really weird one that I'm going to talk about first.
0
SPEAKER_01
So you don't have to be competent to be trusted.
0
SPEAKER_00
 To be charismatic, you have to be competent and trustworthy.
0
SPEAKER_00
So we want that perfect balance.
0
SPEAKER_01
You're smart enough and you're warm and likable.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yes, okay, so let's look at this cover.
0
SPEAKER_00
So really, really successful book covers, just like really successful LinkedIn profile pictures, very quickly signal both trust and competence.
0
SPEAKER_00
They signal both of these at the same time.
0
SPEAKER_00
So let's talk about the first one, which is space.
0
SPEAKER_00
 space zones, okay?
0
SPEAKER_00
So, sorry, I'll give it back to you.
0
SPEAKER_00
I took it away.
0
SPEAKER_00
Space zones?
0
SPEAKER_00
Space zone.
0
SPEAKER_00
We're going to talk about space.
0
SPEAKER_00
We're going to talk about the distance between people.
0
SPEAKER_00
So, the distance between my nose and the camera lens.
0
SPEAKER_00
You can't see it, but in this photo shoot, I made sure that the distance between my space and the camera lens was a certain space.
0
SPEAKER_01
How far?
0
SPEAKER_00
 So I wanted to be in what's called the social zone.
0
SPEAKER_00
And this is not made up by me.
0
SPEAKER_00
This is actually, research is based, there's four zones for people.
0
SPEAKER_00
The intimate zone, the personal zone, the social zone, the public zone.
0
SPEAKER_00
 Remember that Seinfeld episode you ever saw of close talking?
0
SPEAKER_00
You ever had this where someone walks up like right into your face and like talks into your mouth?
0
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so that's called close talking.
0
SPEAKER_00
And that is the first big rule.
0
SPEAKER_01
Intimate zone.
0
SPEAKER_00
Intimate zone.
0
SPEAKER_00
You don't wanna be there.
0
SPEAKER_00
You don't wanna be there unless you're about to get intimate.
0
SPEAKER_01
Or unless you like, you're friends or you know each other and you're like, that's what you do.
0
SPEAKER_00
Louis, do you talk six inches away from your friend?
0
SPEAKER_00
Oh, that's too close.
0
SPEAKER_01
No, no, that's like your girlfriend.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, your partner.
0
SPEAKER_00
Got you, okay.
0
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so here's what happens.
0
SPEAKER_01
This is intimate, six inches.
0
SPEAKER_00
 Zero to 18 inches apart is intimate zone.
0
SPEAKER_00
So here's what happens.
0
SPEAKER_00
This is the biggest mistake I'm seeing right now, is we're all on video call all the time.
0
SPEAKER_01
Taking photos like this, selfie like this.
0
SPEAKER_01
What does that do when you're projecting a video or a photo that close?
0
SPEAKER_00
It is literally saying, I want to get close really, really fast.
0
SPEAKER_00
 And so if you have someone who's super high warmth, they're like, yes, vulnerability, intimacy, and you're gonna attract those kind of people.
0
SPEAKER_00
But if you have someone who's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, take a minute, they are turned off.
0
SPEAKER_00
So what's happening is on video calls, you hop on FaceTime, you hop on video or on Zoom, and people are like right up in their camera.
0
SPEAKER_00
 But their nose and their camera are 10 inches apart, and so someone's like, whoa.
0
SPEAKER_00
It's too close, yeah.
0
SPEAKER_00
It's too close.
0
SPEAKER_00
So that's the first one, is you wanna respect the space zones.
0
SPEAKER_00
The sweet spot is a foot and a half to three or four feet away.
0
SPEAKER_00
That's that social zone.
0
SPEAKER_00
That's where we're making eye contact.
0
SPEAKER_00
If I wanted to reach out and high five you, I could.
0
SPEAKER_00
We're still respecting each other's space.
0
SPEAKER_00
So for those, one is when you're on video, in your photos, if you want to have that balance, you wanna be,
0
SPEAKER_00
 18 inches to about 3 or 4 feet away.
0
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so social zone is 18 to 3 feet.
0
SPEAKER_00
Mm-hmm Yeah, and the personal zone by the way is still good.
0
SPEAKER_00
That's a little bit farther away, right?
0
SPEAKER_00
So that's you're just starting to get to know each other when you see someone across the room or boardroom or networking event.
0
SPEAKER_00
They're usually about 4 to 7 feet away, which is the next zone, which is the personal zone And then you have the public zone, which is obviously from far away What we like in human behavior is we like someone to come towards us slowly That's one of the reasons I think we're so burnt out on video
0
SPEAKER_00
 You know, we have these back-to-back-to-back video calls and we wonder, why are we so tired?
0
SPEAKER_00
I'm not even in person.
0
SPEAKER_00
The reason is because it's cuing us in ways that are not natural.
0
SPEAKER_00
In person, I walk into a room, right, like I walked into the office today and you were waiting, I was like, hi, and we hugged.
0
SPEAKER_00
That's the way humans like, right?
0
SPEAKER_00
It's like this front public.
0
SPEAKER_01
So it's not like you open the door and I'm right there standing in your face.
0
SPEAKER_00
That would have been a lot.
0
SPEAKER_01
I was a few feet back.
0
SPEAKER_00
You were a few feet back.
0
SPEAKER_00
 So that's natural.
0
SPEAKER_00
But on video, it's like, boop, we're here.
0
SPEAKER_00
And that's why we can get so fatigued is because the cues are unnatural, which actually leads me to the second kind of trust cue that's important is when we can't see someone's hands, our brain has a really hard time trusting someone.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's so funny.
0
SPEAKER_01
I think ever since that interview, I'm always keeping my hands out.
0
SPEAKER_01
 I don't think I was keeping my hands in before, but I think I'm just more aware of it when I'm walking by someone who might be a stranger.
0
SPEAKER_01
I just have my hands out and relax and loose, but my, you know, I'm not like tight or tense and I'm not like hiding them or anything.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's just, yeah, just walking normal and say, hey, how's it going?
0
SPEAKER_01
You know, I'll even do a little wave.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, just to show.
0
SPEAKER_00
That's super charismatic.
0
SPEAKER_01
Hey, good to see you.
0
SPEAKER_00
That's it.
0
SPEAKER_00
 That's it.
0
SPEAKER_00
So I love Shark Tank.
0
SPEAKER_00
Do you know that show?
0
SPEAKER_00
I love it.
0
SPEAKER_00
I love it.
0
SPEAKER_01
Friday nights.
0
SPEAKER_00
Shark Tank.
0
SPEAKER_00
Shark Tank.
0
SPEAKER_00
So I wanted to know, watching Shark Tank, was there patterns between the least successful pitches... Interesting.
0
SPEAKER_00
...and the most successful pitches?
0
SPEAKER_01
This is cool.
0
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
0
SPEAKER_00
So my team, I love my team.
0
SPEAKER_00
Thank you to my team.
0
SPEAKER_01
Not on just based on what people said, but how they said things.
0
SPEAKER_00
Everything.
0
SPEAKER_00
Everything.
0
SPEAKER_00
So we analyzed 495 Shark Tank pitches.
0
SPEAKER_00
Come on.
0
SPEAKER_01
 What were the main things you saw from those successful and those not?
0
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so thank you to Jose Pina for this research.
0
SPEAKER_00
495 Shark Tank pitches, literally hundreds of hours of Shark Tank, coding every variable we could think of.
0
SPEAKER_00
Entrance, first impression, verbal, eye contact, smiling, interactivity, math.
0
SPEAKER_00
I mean, we were looking at everything.
0
SPEAKER_00
Holy cow.
0
SPEAKER_00
 One of the biggest differences between the least successful pitches and the most successful pitches was what you just did.
0
SPEAKER_01
Hands.
0
SPEAKER_00
Right.
0
SPEAKER_00
So when you walk down that shark tank hallway, that is beautiful, right?
0
SPEAKER_00
That's exactly what we're talking about.
0
SPEAKER_00
Space, right?
0
SPEAKER_00
Public to personal to social to intimate.
0
SPEAKER_00
So it's a nice warm-up.
0
SPEAKER_00
The best pitchers, when they were all the way in the public zone, signaled, hey, sharks.
0
SPEAKER_00
No way.
0
SPEAKER_00
And they'd walk into the room, they'd take their place on the carpet, and they'd go, good morning, sharks.
0
SPEAKER_00
Or, hey, Kevin.
0
SPEAKER_00
 Mark, we'd love to have a deal with you."
0
SPEAKER_00
They would greet with some kind of hand gesture.
0
SPEAKER_00
The least successful pitchers walked in with, I think they thought they were being humble, but it actually reduced trust.
0
SPEAKER_00
They hid their hands either in fists behind their backs, in their pockets, or holding a prop.
0
SPEAKER_00
Sometimes accidentally they hid their hands and they didn't hand greet.
0
SPEAKER_00
 That makes it really hard for someone to say, I can trust you.
0
SPEAKER_00
And that is a primitive part of our brain that when we can't see someone's hands, like if I were to do this entire interview with my hands behind my back.
0
SPEAKER_01
What's she doing right there?
0
SPEAKER_00
What's she doing?
0
SPEAKER_00
What are her hands doing?
0
SPEAKER_00
 And what's interesting is Susan Goldwimetto researches gesture.
0
SPEAKER_00
She spent her entire academic career researching gesture.
0
SPEAKER_00
And she found that gestures carry more weight than words.
0
SPEAKER_00
So if a pitcher, a shark tank pitcher, were to go on and say, today I have a really big idea.
0
SPEAKER_00
 It's really big and I hold my hands up like it's really big.
0
SPEAKER_00
It's really small.
0
SPEAKER_00
You're like, no way.
0
SPEAKER_00
It looks small, Vanessa.
0
SPEAKER_00
It looks so small.
0
SPEAKER_00
It's not big at all.
0
SPEAKER_00
But if I were to say I have three big ideas and hold up five, you're actually more likely to bleed my fingers.
0
SPEAKER_00
So the reason why this is important is because gestures help lower cognitive load.
0
SPEAKER_01
Interesting.
0
SPEAKER_00
 When I use gesture, I'm more fluent.
0
SPEAKER_00
I'm able to be more competent.
0
SPEAKER_00
I'm able to underline my words.
0
SPEAKER_00
I'm able to say, this is a really important point.
0
SPEAKER_00
Can I give it to you?
0
SPEAKER_01
Hand gestures, body gestures, facial gestures, hair gestures.
0
SPEAKER_00
Hand gestures.
0
SPEAKER_00
Hand gestures specifically.
0
SPEAKER_01
Are key.
0
SPEAKER_00
They are like our body language highlighter.
0
SPEAKER_00
 That's how I want you to think about them.
0
SPEAKER_01
What happens if we don't?
0
SPEAKER_01
I'm just kind of socially awkward.
0
SPEAKER_01
I like keeping my hands down the whole time when I'm communicating.
0
SPEAKER_01
What happens if we don't use our hand gestures at all in a conversation, on a pitch, whatever?
0
SPEAKER_00
Two things.
0
SPEAKER_00
One is it's harder for you to process.
0
SPEAKER_01
 They've literally found that.
0
SPEAKER_01
Correct.
0
SPEAKER_00
It's going to be harder for you to get your confidence because gestures are a way that we underline or highlight our words.
0
SPEAKER_00
And so if you are inhibiting your own gestures, you will have a hard time explaining things.
0
SPEAKER_00
They actually did a study where they had people explain two versions of a story.
0
SPEAKER_00
Notice two versions of the story.
0
SPEAKER_00
One they could use their hands and one they couldn't.
0
SPEAKER_00
The one where they could use their hands, they had less pauses, they spoke more quickly, they used bigger words.
0
SPEAKER_00
The one where they just couldn't, just their hands were just underneath their legs.
0
SPEAKER_01
 You know what's interesting?
0
SPEAKER_01
I was just reading some intros for the podcast right before you came in.
0
SPEAKER_01
I had another interview this morning and I did podcast intros and ads.
0
SPEAKER_01
And I use my hands in order to do it because I feel like it's coming across as like I'm really engaging.
0
SPEAKER_01
And I remember when I was reading my first audio book, The School of Greatness.
0
SPEAKER_01
 I tried to read it just kind of with my hands down for a while and I was like, I can't read.
0
SPEAKER_01
I've forgotten how to read my own words.
0
SPEAKER_01
Being dyslexic growing up anyways, I'm a little slower when I read in general.
0
SPEAKER_01
But when I started to be like, okay, I just need to get in this with my body, my hands, I felt more confident.
0
SPEAKER_01
I felt like I could flow.
0
SPEAKER_01
I wasn't messing up as much.
0
SPEAKER_01
I wasn't having to stop and restart as much.
0
SPEAKER_01
It was powerful.
0
SPEAKER_00
 Yes, okay, that's an incredible story about gesture, because if you watch the best cartoon voiceover folks, they are using their- Animated, right?
0
SPEAKER_00
Yes, they are using their whole bodies.
0
SPEAKER_01
They're in a room by themselves, recording on a mic, right?
0
SPEAKER_00
But they're like, la!
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we just did the same thing, yes.
0
SPEAKER_00
That's what they're doing.
0
SPEAKER_00
That's not how I record my audio, but yeah.
0
SPEAKER_00
But Susan Goldwyn-Meadow's research is called Hearing Gesture.
0
SPEAKER_00
 And that is because I'm using my hands right now, not only for people watching, but also for my folks who are listening.
0
SPEAKER_00
Because I know that the more I use my gestures, the more charisma I have vocally, and I would love to talk about vocal charisma.
0
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
0
SPEAKER_00
So that helps me, but it also helps you.
0
SPEAKER_00
So anyone who's watching, you're getting so much information.
0
SPEAKER_00
They say 12.5 times more information from our gestures.
0
SPEAKER_00
Come on.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
0
SPEAKER_01
Even when you can't see it?
0
SPEAKER_00
 No, you have to be able to see it.
0
SPEAKER_00
We can hear charisma, but if someone can see our gestures, it adds more weight to what I'm saying.
0
SPEAKER_00
So when I say weight, I'm like, it's heavy.
0
SPEAKER_00
Look how heavy that is, right?
0
SPEAKER_00
But if I were to be like, heavy, it's so heavy, and I kind of shoo it away, you're like, no, it's not heavy.
0
SPEAKER_01
You can feel it.
0
SPEAKER_01
The emphasis of the words.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yes, so it's like a highlighter.
0
SPEAKER_00
Now, I have to have a caveat here, because I've created a problem in the past.
0
SPEAKER_00
I love a gesture, but I don't like jazz hands, right?
1
SPEAKER_03
 So gestures are great.
1
SPEAKER_03
Hey, good to see you.
1
SPEAKER_03
Hey, Lewis.
1
SPEAKER_00
How are you?
1
SPEAKER_00
This is not credible or trustworthy.
1
SPEAKER_00
You're like, this is some weirdo over here.
1
SPEAKER_03
I created a problem where I had people who were like entering their Zoom meetings and they were like, hello, Vanessa.
1
SPEAKER_03
And I was like, oh, no.
1
SPEAKER_00
Don't do that.
1
SPEAKER_03
Oh, no, no.
1
SPEAKER_03
So it's like a highlighter, right?
1
SPEAKER_03
You wouldn't want to highlight the whole page.
1
SPEAKER_03
You just want to highlight the concepts that matter.
1
SPEAKER_00
 So let's go back to hands for a second because you said there were 400 videos, I think you guys researched on Shark Tank.
1
SPEAKER_03
495 pitches.
1
SPEAKER_00
And one of the main factors was waving as you were walking in or as you were getting into planting.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
Not all the way back like waving.
1
SPEAKER_00
Could be.
1
SPEAKER_03
Some of them did.
1
SPEAKER_00
But also once you sat there and said, hey sharks.
1
SPEAKER_03
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_03
Hey sharks, good morning.
1
SPEAKER_03
Happy to be here.
1
SPEAKER_03
Even this happy to be here, like an open palm gesture.
1
SPEAKER_03
Interesting.
1
SPEAKER_00
 OK, what are a few other things you notice?
1
SPEAKER_03
OK, yes.
1
SPEAKER_03
OK, so we love gestures.
1
SPEAKER_03
And by the way, this is super easy on a video call, in person.
1
SPEAKER_03
Hey, nice to see you.
1
SPEAKER_03
Good morning.
1
SPEAKER_03
The biggest mistake we make, someone walks in and we go, hey, we give them a nod.
1
SPEAKER_03
 Give them a hand.
1
SPEAKER_03
You like them enough to give them a hand, right?
1
SPEAKER_03
So that's really easy.
1
SPEAKER_03
It's like every YouTube video, I'm like, hey, friends.
1
SPEAKER_03
That's literally how I start every video.
1
SPEAKER_03
OK, that's the first thing.
1
SPEAKER_03
So the second thing is where things get more interesting.
1
SPEAKER_03
So remember that these sharks were in pitch after pitch after pitch.
1
SPEAKER_00
They're tired.
1
SPEAKER_00
They're so tired.
1
SPEAKER_03
 They are so tired.
1
SPEAKER_00
I've been on set there.
1
SPEAKER_00
I've seen like the whole day.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's just like, it's a lot.
1
SPEAKER_03
It's a grind.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's a grind.
1
SPEAKER_03
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_03
So the most successful pitches, the next thing we found, this was very, very clear, is that the more that the pitchers could spark dopamine, the more likely they were to get a deal.
1
SPEAKER_03
Now, dopamine is a very complicated chemical.
1
SPEAKER_03
So just for our purposes... Food.
1
SPEAKER_00
 eating something, you know, giving them like, oh, try my... Yes, yes, yes.
1
SPEAKER_03
I was like, food, yes, yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like taste testing, like opening something.
1
SPEAKER_03
Try it, taste it, smell it, lick it, touch it, feel it, wear it, play it.
1
SPEAKER_03
 Any of those senses, we love.
1
SPEAKER_03
So when we are doing something that's different, that's tactile, so yeah, touch, smell, taste, wear, play, do, try, that was gonna wake the sharks up.
1
SPEAKER_03
Dopamine is a little bit, it's a very complicated chemical, but I wanna talk about it a little differently.
1
SPEAKER_03
It does feel good, right?
1
SPEAKER_03
So if they were to say to the sharks, sharks,
1
SPEAKER_03
 Today I have a gift for you."
1
SPEAKER_03
The brain goes, oh, a gift, a gift, a gift, a gift.
1
SPEAKER_03
Dopamine is like that feeling of I want it, I want it, I want it.
1
SPEAKER_03
It's an excitement, but it's also motivation.
1
SPEAKER_03
So what they found is that when people have a lot of dopamine, they are more motivated to do things.
1
SPEAKER_03
They are more motivated to figure out a deal.
1
SPEAKER_03
They are more motivated to ask questions.
1
SPEAKER_03
 So when a pitcher went in and not only had some kind of an interactivity, some kind of a surprise for them, and sometimes it was a surprise, and they would literally say, and guess what sharks?
1
SPEAKER_03
 We wanna know what that is because we're like, dopamine, dopamine, dopamine.
1
SPEAKER_03
So it doesn't have to be like, you don't have to walk in every meeting and hand out and throw out Snickers bars.
1
SPEAKER_03
Love a Snickers bar and that will work really well.
1
SPEAKER_03
That will work, it will work every time.
1
SPEAKER_03
But it's also verbal surprise.
1
SPEAKER_03
So it's also saying, today I have something really special to share.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right?
1
SPEAKER_00
Anticipation.
1
SPEAKER_03
Anticipation.
1
SPEAKER_03
It doesn't even have to be something major.
1
SPEAKER_03
It can be throwing in those little elements of surprise that people can look forward to.
1
SPEAKER_03
And here's the biggest one.
1
SPEAKER_03
 So this is research that blew my mind.
1
SPEAKER_03
It changed the way that I write emails.
1
SPEAKER_03
So if you write a lot of emails, this study is for you.
1
SPEAKER_03
So I'm going to break it down.
1
SPEAKER_03
It's kind of a complicated study.
1
SPEAKER_03
So here's what they did.
1
SPEAKER_03
So researchers had participants come into their lab and do like a little quiz, like a little math test.
1
SPEAKER_03
 One group of participants read a set of directions that was very simple.
1
SPEAKER_03
Please take the following quiz.
1
SPEAKER_03
Take your time.
1
SPEAKER_03
Use a pencil.
1
SPEAKER_03
Tell us when you're done.
1
SPEAKER_03
Very simple set of directions.
1
SPEAKER_03
The other participants got the same set of directions, but they sprinkled in a couple of achievement-oriented words.
1
SPEAKER_03
So achievement-oriented words are words like win, succeed, master, greatness.
1
SPEAKER_03
OK?
1
SPEAKER_03
Those are achievement-oriented words.
1
SPEAKER_03
There's a reason why this is so powerful.
1
SPEAKER_03
 in the directions they would say something like, please master all these questions, take as much time as you can to win the right answer.
1
SPEAKER_03
So they just sprinkled in a couple of these words, two or three of these words.
1
SPEAKER_03
They found that participants who had the achievement-oriented words performed better.
1
SPEAKER_03
 They actually got more answers correct.
1
SPEAKER_03
Now, this is incredible.
1
SPEAKER_03
If you're a manager or a boss or you're working with people and you want them to perform at their best, just a couple of word swaps can help set them up for success.
1
SPEAKER_03
The second thing they found is that it also doubled participants' desire to keep working.
1
SPEAKER_00
If they could win, succeed, achieve.
1
SPEAKER_03
They were like they worked on it longer, they worked on it harder, and they enjoyed it more.
1
SPEAKER_03
 And the last one is that reading achievement-oriented words can change our own dopamine and testosterone.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's fascinating.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's interesting because for years in high school and college, there was this store called Successions, I think it was called.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don't know if you remember this.
1
SPEAKER_00
It was like a motivational, inspirational store that had like...
1
SPEAKER_00
 I don't know, poster of like an ego soaring with a quote, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
Or like just something.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like something which is like, it was like Ted Lasso, you know, store.
1
SPEAKER_00
It was just like believe in yourself with like this money.
1
SPEAKER_03
Where is this store?
1
SPEAKER_03
I want it, okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think it's called Successions.
1
SPEAKER_00
I can't remember the name of it.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don't even know if it's around anymore.
1
SPEAKER_00
But my dad bought me a lot of stuff and I had all this sports type of inspirational quotes and you know, Rocky posters and all these things of just people achieving.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And I would stare in these walls and I'd just be like, I wanna be that.
1
SPEAKER_00
Let me go take the actions every morning to work a little bit harder to reach the goals.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I was just consumed in a success, you know, word.
1
SPEAKER_03
You were literally priming yourself with those cues.
1
SPEAKER_03
Another study, I promise I won't do too many more, they put a picture of an athlete winning a race on top of telemarketers' scripts.
1
SPEAKER_03
The people who had the picture of the athlete winning
1
SPEAKER_03
 earned more money.
1
SPEAKER_03
Come on.
1
SPEAKER_03
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like just in front of them?
1
SPEAKER_03
You're like... Literally a printed picture on their script.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh wow.
1
SPEAKER_03
So why I share this is because we do not realize that we are cuing people incorrectly or we are missing opportunities in every single email that we send.
1
SPEAKER_03
So if you send an email out to your team on Monday morning, hey everyone, today is going to be a busy day.
1
SPEAKER_03
 We have a lot of challenges.
1
SPEAKER_03
Let's make sure we're not late.
1
SPEAKER_03
Research has found that when people read words like busy, challenge, or late, it literally primes them to be busier and later and more challenged.
1
SPEAKER_03
You are literally making it harder for them to help you.
1
SPEAKER_03
So if instead you think about, and this is a challenge I would love to, if you're brave enough to take it, open up your email sent folder.
1
SPEAKER_03
 and pull up five emails that you've sent to important people, boss, partner, colleague, whatever, client.
1
SPEAKER_03
I want you to print those emails and I want you to count the number of priming words you use.
1
SPEAKER_00
Good or bad.
1
SPEAKER_03
And even more, are they warm or are they competent?
1
SPEAKER_03
 So this is where the next level happens.
1
SPEAKER_00
Who would give it to me?
1
SPEAKER_03
Highly charismatic people prime others with warmth and competence.
1
SPEAKER_00
This is what I was going to say is one of the spark dopamine.
1
SPEAKER_00
A simple compliment or acknowledgement sparks dopamine from my experience.
1
SPEAKER_00
Just by seeing someone and acknowledging something you appreciate about them or you like about them or great shoes or whatever it is, I'm going to share.
1
SPEAKER_00
You've got a great smile today.
1
SPEAKER_00
You've got good energy today.
1
SPEAKER_00
That sparks dopamine, right?
1
SPEAKER_03
 Oh, 100%, actually this leads me to my next third point, my shark tank point.
1
SPEAKER_03
We also noticed that when pitchers specifically acknowledge things from the sharks, and specific sharks, they were more likely to get a deal from that shark.
1
SPEAKER_00
I really like this thing about you, you did something amazing.
1
SPEAKER_03
Maury, I've been so looking forward to working with you.
1
SPEAKER_03
Robert, I love all your deals with all those athletes.
1
SPEAKER_03
Mark, I've been a huge fan of yours for years.
1
SPEAKER_03
Or this was the winning phrase.
1
SPEAKER_03
 In a pitch, if we heard this phrase, it was a high likelihood that someone was going to get a deal, which is, you remind me of myself.
1
SPEAKER_03
 That could have been one of the sharks, that could have been one of the entrepreneurs, but the biggest compliment we can give someone is you remind me of me.
1
SPEAKER_03
You're my role model.
1
SPEAKER_03
I put you in – so this is what we're talking about as kind of the next level here is I think that yes, I want you to be your most charismatic self.
1
SPEAKER_03
I want everyone hopefully who's listening to be inspired to be their warmest, most competent self.
1
SPEAKER_03
 But what a bigger gift, what a better way to be great, to gift other people to be their warmest and most competent self.
1
SPEAKER_03
So that when you're sending an email and you say, hey, I'm introing Sarah, or we have Sarah on the call, or here's that quick email intro I promised to Sarah.
1
SPEAKER_03
 No priming words.
1
SPEAKER_03
What if instead you thought, what's the warmest and most competent thing about both Sarah and the person I'm introducing to?
1
SPEAKER_03
And you say, hey, I'd love you to meet Sarah.
1
SPEAKER_03
She's been leading our marketing team for 10 years.
1
SPEAKER_03
We are so lucky to have her.
1
SPEAKER_03
She's a gem.
1
SPEAKER_03
 Lucky, gem, leader.
1
SPEAKER_03
That is the perfect balance of warmth and competence.
1
SPEAKER_03
And you are gifting that to both Sarah, the person you're turning to, and yourself.
1
SPEAKER_03
And so I think our words are gifts.
1
SPEAKER_03
And this doesn't have to be every email.
1
SPEAKER_03
But in your most important emails, that audit that you send, count how many warm words are you using.
1
SPEAKER_03
So warm words are words that trigger connection, trust, words that make you feel the warm and fuzzies.
1
SPEAKER_03
They're very oxytocin words.
1
SPEAKER_03
 Count the number of competent words.
1
SPEAKER_03
Efficient, productive, brainstorm, leverage, lead, streamline.
1
SPEAKER_03
Those are all great competence words.
1
SPEAKER_03
A funny note here is emojis.
1
SPEAKER_00
Are they good or bad?
1
SPEAKER_03
Highly warm.
1
SPEAKER_00
Not good or bad.
1
SPEAKER_00
You can have likeability, connection.
1
SPEAKER_03
High warmth, right?
1
SPEAKER_03
So emojis and exclamation points count as one warm word.
1
SPEAKER_03
So if you have someone, and this happens a lot where people send a highly warm email to an important person,
1
SPEAKER_03
 Hi friend, friend, warm word, exclamation point, two warm words.
1
SPEAKER_03
I loved talking to you yesterday, three warm words.
1
SPEAKER_03
It was so exciting to catch up.
1
SPEAKER_03
Exciting, catch up, five warm words.
1
SPEAKER_03
Heart emoji, heart, smiley face.
1
SPEAKER_03
Now we're at seven warm words and we're one sentence in, right?
1
SPEAKER_03
They wonder why they're not taken seriously.
1
SPEAKER_03
They wonder why they didn't get a follow-up interview.
1
SPEAKER_03
They wonder why that person takes four days to reply.
1
SPEAKER_03
 It's because it's too much warmth.
1
SPEAKER_03
You have to balance that with the competence.
1
SPEAKER_03
So I want you to count and see what kind of signals are you sending to the people who matter to you.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's interesting.
1
SPEAKER_03
Do you want to?
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, you're bringing up something I used to do years ago when no one knew who I was.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was just getting started in 2007, 2008.
1
SPEAKER_00
 I used LinkedIn as a tool to create connection with people that were, you know, successful business leaders and people that had done things that I wanted to do in the future, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
And for a while, none of them would reply to me because I started off saying like, hey, I'm just getting started.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'm brand new.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I'm looking for some advice.
1
SPEAKER_00
Can you help me?
1
SPEAKER_00
Those types of... Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_03
Warm, warm, warm, warm, warm, warm.
1
SPEAKER_00
Languages, right?
1
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_03
All those words you just said are all warm.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Yeah, and I started switching it and getting a reply almost every time from anyone.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like anyone I'd reach out to, I was like, they're gonna reply to this.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I started doing a few things.
1
SPEAKER_00
In the first sentence, I would just try to find, you know, spark dopamine, essentially, is what I was doing.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was looking for a mutual connection we had, and I'd speak about the mutual connection.
1
SPEAKER_03
Mutual connection is highly competent.
1
SPEAKER_03
It's saying, you know this person, I know them too, I'm in the know.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's trust.
1
SPEAKER_00
Trust and warmth.
1
SPEAKER_03
Warmth and competence.
1
SPEAKER_00
This person likes me, if you like them, yeah, trust.
1
SPEAKER_03
Perfect balance, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
 I didn't even know that and I was just doing it, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
And it was working.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was like, okay, let me keep doing this.
1
SPEAKER_00
Let me find someone that we know in common.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I would always try to have a conversation to get some intel on them.
1
SPEAKER_00
Can you tell me something about so-and-so?
1
SPEAKER_00
And I would speak about that information and I would speak into them.
1
SPEAKER_00
I would also look for a couple other...
1
SPEAKER_00
 areas of interest that we have in common.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I would try to have three different things in common in the first sentence or two.
1
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, something that they did that I'd experienced before or a place they're from or whatever.
1
SPEAKER_00
Some mutual interest.
1
SPEAKER_00
Warmth and competence.
1
SPEAKER_00
Maybe that's competence, maybe.
1
SPEAKER_00
Or it's both.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's both.
1
SPEAKER_03
It's beautifully both.
1
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I would do that and then I would say something like, I'm really inspired by what you created.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'd love to learn your story of success.
1
SPEAKER_03
 Ooh, wait, wait, say it again, say it again, say it.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'm really inspired by what you've created.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'd love to learn your story of success.
1
SPEAKER_03
Oh man, that just gave me the chill.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's essentially what I did almost every email.
1
SPEAKER_03
That sentence, can we just like talk about that?
1
SPEAKER_03
Sure.
1
SPEAKER_03
So that sentence is the perfect blend of warmth and competence.
1
SPEAKER_03
There you go.
1
SPEAKER_03
Right?
1
SPEAKER_03
You have love, you have learn, you have success.
1
SPEAKER_03
And so that didn't take a lot of words.
1
SPEAKER_03
It's not like you were writing them a six paragraph email.
1
SPEAKER_03
No.
1
SPEAKER_03
But it's so much better than, let me know if you have any questions.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Oh, oh, oh.
1
SPEAKER_03
Or can I pick your brain for coffee?
1
SPEAKER_02
Oh, oh, oh.
1
SPEAKER_03
So I think what we have to do is there are hidden opportunities waiting for you in your texts, in your emails, in your profiles, if you choose to take them.
1
SPEAKER_03
And all it takes is a couple of word swaps.
1
SPEAKER_03
Like I'm not talking about 15, in that direction sheet, they sprinkled in like two or three words.
1
SPEAKER_03
Win, even reading the word win makes the other person think more like a winner.
1
SPEAKER_03
 A gift to give.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's cool.
1
SPEAKER_00
The quote that I heard in high school from Roosevelt is, people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.
1
SPEAKER_00
Saves my life, literally.
1
SPEAKER_03
That's more than competence right there.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because I didn't feel competent my entire school life, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
In school, I was at the bottom of my class.
1
SPEAKER_00
I just graded poorly, which
1
SPEAKER_00
 Confirm like I'm not smart enough or like I'll never be able to be as intelligent as my classmates or anyone in the world So why would anyone like me or trust me because I didn't feel competent Then when I heard that quote I go I have a chance like I can build competence in another area of life I can be emotionally intelligent and I can show people how much I care and by doing that that's been pretty much my whole life.
1
SPEAKER_00
I
1
SPEAKER_03
 Everyone who's listening, I hope what this shows you is that caring about someone, there's multiple ways to do that.
1
SPEAKER_03
Yes, it's emotionally intelligent, but it's also honoring someone's cues or gifting them the right cues.
1
SPEAKER_03
When you make someone feel more like a winner, what a gift you just gave them.
1
SPEAKER_00
Huge gift.
1
SPEAKER_00
You're putting confidence into them.
1
SPEAKER_00
You're speaking joy, confidence into that person.
1
SPEAKER_03
 Yes, you're literally gifting them the chemical dopamine so that they themselves have more motivation.
1
SPEAKER_03
And don't we all need more motivation?
1
SPEAKER_03
Can I, since you shared a vulnerability, can I share a vulnerability and a compliment?
1
SPEAKER_03
Okay, so I've been so excited to tell you this.
1
SPEAKER_03
So your book, School of Greatness,
1
SPEAKER_03
 I love the cover.
1
SPEAKER_03
I just thought it was so inspiring.
1
SPEAKER_03
And when I was taking my cover shoot for Captivate, this is six years ago now, it was not going well.
1
SPEAKER_03
I was super awkward.
1
SPEAKER_03
My photographer, amazing, Maggie Kirkland, was like, listen, this isn't working.
1
SPEAKER_03
You're really awkward.
1
SPEAKER_03
I need you to relax.
1
SPEAKER_03
I'm like, I can't relax.
1
SPEAKER_03
The worst thing you can do to someone who's anxious is tell them to relax.
1
SPEAKER_03
So we weren't getting the shot.
1
SPEAKER_03
We weren't getting the pictures.
1
SPEAKER_03
And she's like, OK, just think about your role models.
1
SPEAKER_03
Who's your role model?
1
SPEAKER_03
I was like, Lewis Howes.
1
SPEAKER_03
 So she pulls up your book and she goes, okay, she said, look at Lewis, channel him.
1
SPEAKER_03
And so in the shoot, I channeled you and I did your pose of my hands over my stomach with your face and crazily enough, that is the Captivate cover.
1
SPEAKER_03
I'm gonna send you the full version.
1
SPEAKER_00
I better send you some royalties.
1
SPEAKER_03
 So anyway, I channeled you because even that cue, there was something about it.
1
SPEAKER_03
So I thank you for even the cues that you send out because that gifted me confidence when you didn't even know about it.
1
SPEAKER_00
There you go.
1
SPEAKER_00
I appreciate it.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'm glad it worked.
1
SPEAKER_00
What's another thing in the shark tank?
1
SPEAKER_00
Sparking dopamine.
1
SPEAKER_03
 Okay, so we talked about reading, we talked about dopamine, we talked about interactivity, we talked about complementing in a way that allows someone to see themselves in you or pulling out a similarity, right?
1
SPEAKER_03
So like, you know, like you, Laurie, we really value.
1
SPEAKER_03
 Mr. Wonderful, we love Mr. Wonderful products, right?
1
SPEAKER_03
Like that really helped.
1
SPEAKER_03
I mean, it sounds like sucking up, but actually it really works.
1
SPEAKER_03
It really worked.
1
SPEAKER_03
The other thing that we noticed about the interactivity is what they would do is they would cross space zones.
1
SPEAKER_03
So they would have something to give the sharks and they would go from the carpet to the chairs.
1
SPEAKER_00
That worked, usually.
1
SPEAKER_03
 worked because they were going into intimate zone very quickly.
1
SPEAKER_03
So this is called a nonverbal bridge.
1
SPEAKER_03
It's kind of an advanced technique.
1
SPEAKER_03
Do you want to talk about it?
1
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_03
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_03
So a nonverbal bridge is a way that we cross into someone's intimate space, but safely.
1
SPEAKER_03
 So what happens is when we're with someone, we want to connect with them.
1
SPEAKER_03
We want more oxytocin.
1
SPEAKER_03
We want to bond with them.
1
SPEAKER_03
But sometimes it can be hard to break that boundary.
1
SPEAKER_03
A nonverbal bridge is a way that we can create oxytocin with permission.
1
SPEAKER_03
So that could be handing someone something.
1
SPEAKER_03
That could be giving a high five.
1
SPEAKER_03
 that could be touching their elbow.
1
SPEAKER_03
And that is exactly what successful pitchers did.
1
SPEAKER_03
They would have a reason or an excuse to, hey, Lorgan, let me guide you up here.
1
SPEAKER_03
Hey, Kevin, let me zip on this suit for you.
1
SPEAKER_03
Hey, you want to try this amazing cinnamon roll?
1
SPEAKER_03
And when they did that, they created these small little bridges.
1
SPEAKER_03
So what I would think about is like how can you create bridges to people where you're engaging them even physically?
1
SPEAKER_03
 And that's harder on video, but in person that was a thing that we found in the tank.
1
SPEAKER_00
How do you do it in a way that the person feels comfortable if you touch them on the elbow?
1
SPEAKER_00
Because someone may not feel comfortable.
1
SPEAKER_00
So you have to be really intuitive to, you know, is this person going to be receptive to me?
1
SPEAKER_00
Are they already interested enough where I can get closer?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
Are they leaning in?
1
SPEAKER_03
Are they giving eye contact?
1
SPEAKER_03
Are they nodding?
1
SPEAKER_03
Oh, I forgot another one that was really important.
1
SPEAKER_03
So vocal power.
1
SPEAKER_03
So we haven't really talked about vocal power.
1
SPEAKER_03
And this was a big one in the tank.
1
SPEAKER_03
 So we hear competence, we hear competence.
1
SPEAKER_03
And the biggest way that we do this is with inflection.
1
SPEAKER_03
So inflection is the biggest mistake that we make is the question inflection.
1
SPEAKER_03
So the question inflection is when we go up at the end of our sentences, right?
1
SPEAKER_03
It's also called up talk.
1
SPEAKER_00
So if I were to... Don't do up talk.
1
SPEAKER_03
 Don't do up talk, we're gonna talk about why.
1
SPEAKER_03
So when we use the question inflection, it cues the other person's brain to know, ah, we're being asked a question.
1
SPEAKER_03
The problem is is that when we accidentally use the question inflection, it makes people question you, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
Are they really trustworthy?
1
SPEAKER_03
Right, so what happened is in this study where they looked at doctors, they found that the doctors who had, so I'll break down the study.
1
SPEAKER_03
So what they did is they asked doctors to record 10 second voice tone clips.
1
SPEAKER_03
And they said like their name, their specialty, where they worked, so it sounded like,
1
SPEAKER_03
 Hi, my name is Dr. Edwards.
1
SPEAKER_03
I work in oncology.
1
SPEAKER_03
I specialize in children's medicine.
1
SPEAKER_03
Something like that.
1
SPEAKER_03
They took the clips and they warbled the words so you couldn't understand the actual words being said.
1
SPEAKER_03
So it sounded like... Right?
1
SPEAKER_03
Then they asked people to rate these clips on warmth and competence.
1
SPEAKER_03
Again, this research has been repeated over and over again.
1
SPEAKER_03
 Imagine this for a second, you're asked to listen to a clip of gobbledygook.
1
SPEAKER_03
Are they smart?
1
SPEAKER_03
Do you like them?
1
SPEAKER_03
And people do it.
1
SPEAKER_03
What they found is the doctors who had the lowest warmth and competence ratings had the highest rate of malpractice lawsuits.
1
SPEAKER_03
That implies that we don't just sue doctors based on their skills.
1
SPEAKER_03
We sue doctors based on our perception of their skills, and that happens in the first few seconds of hearing them.
1
SPEAKER_00
 So your communication is everything.
1
SPEAKER_03
Everything.
1
SPEAKER_03
It's not just the words you're using.
1
SPEAKER_03
Are they warm?
1
SPEAKER_03
Are they competent?
1
SPEAKER_03
It's even how you're saying the words.
1
SPEAKER_03
So the very first story I break down in the book, and this is in the intro, so if you want to just look at the sample chapter, you could.
1
SPEAKER_03
I analyze Jamie Siminoff's pitch.
1
SPEAKER_03
Jamie Siminoff is the founder of Ring.
1
SPEAKER_00
That didn't get any money, then it sold for a billion dollars.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_03
 Here is a brilliant guy, right?
1
SPEAKER_03
Jamie Siminoff is brilliant.
1
SPEAKER_03
He had a successful product, right?
1
SPEAKER_03
Ring is a very successful product.
1
SPEAKER_03
Amazon acquired it for over a billion, with a B, dollars.
1
SPEAKER_03
Yet he goes into the pitch in a shark tank and he pitches and he doesn't get a deal.
1
SPEAKER_03
 Why?
1
SPEAKER_03
That pitch plagued me because I was like, here is a smart guy with a great idea.
1
SPEAKER_03
But his cues were the problem.
1
SPEAKER_03
I think that he lost his pitch.
1
SPEAKER_03
This is a really big statement and if you listen to it you'll hear it.
1
SPEAKER_03
I think he lost the deal in the first 10 seconds of them hearing him.
1
SPEAKER_03
And the reason is he made the choice to close the doors to the tank.
1
SPEAKER_03
 So in his pitch, he doesn't walk down the hallway.
1
SPEAKER_03
You don't see that long first impression.
1
SPEAKER_03
You don't get public to social to personal.
1
SPEAKER_03
He closed the doors.
1
SPEAKER_03
And what he did is he went, he knocked on the door of the Shark Tank.
1
SPEAKER_03
They're like, hello?
1
SPEAKER_03
And he goes, it's Jamie?
1
SPEAKER_03
 So he asked his own name.
1
SPEAKER_03
And when you're a shark and you're trying to make a very quick first impression of someone without seeing them and you hear the question inflection, it's supposed to be used on a statement.
1
SPEAKER_03
 you immediately begin to question, I don't know.
1
SPEAKER_03
And that is also because we know that liars are more likely to use the question reflection.
1
SPEAKER_03
If you've ever played Two Truths and a Lie, you ever played that game?
1
SPEAKER_03
Okay, so Two Truths and a Lie, here's a little tip for everyone.
1
SPEAKER_03
If you ever play that game, people almost always ask the lie.
1
SPEAKER_03
So they'll be like, oh yeah, Two Truths and a Lie.
1
SPEAKER_03
I have a goldfish, I am a vegetarian, and I love dogs.
1
SPEAKER_03
 they almost always go up on their lie.
1
SPEAKER_03
And that's because when we're lying, we don't know if you believe us.
1
SPEAKER_03
So subconsciously, we give it away.
1
SPEAKER_03
So Jamie starts his pitch, and he doesn't have a first impression.
1
SPEAKER_03
He doesn't do any greeting in the hallway.
1
SPEAKER_03
He misses that whole walk up.
1
SPEAKER_03
The very first words out of his mouth, doesn't even matter what he says, is, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, that up talk.
1
SPEAKER_03
And then Mark Cuban says, are you here to pitch?
1
SPEAKER_03
And he says, here to pitch?
1
SPEAKER_03
 Again, using the question inflection.
1
SPEAKER_03
I think that what happened was is it gave away his competence.
1
SPEAKER_03
And then the doors open, right, and he explains this idea of, ring, it's a doorbell.
1
SPEAKER_03
The problem is, is his first impression was very low in competence.
1
SPEAKER_03
And so he had a lot of trouble having the sharks take him seriously.
1
SPEAKER_00
 He was a very competent individual building his business, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
He was very smart, intelligent, knew the technology, how to build product, teams, all these things, get sales, whatever it was.
1
SPEAKER_00
But the warmth wasn't there as well, it seems like, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
Like the trustworthy, charisma, warmth, confidence.
1
SPEAKER_03
 He under-signaled every step of the way.
1
SPEAKER_03
So he under-signaled warmth, he under-signaled competence, and then was trying to dial up competence.
1
SPEAKER_03
And you hear in the rest of the pitch, he's- He's trying to build it back up.
1
SPEAKER_00
He's like, but we've done this, and look, we've got this technology.
1
SPEAKER_03
And this money, and then this.
1
SPEAKER_03
And so he cannot get it back.
1
SPEAKER_03
He could not get it back.
1
SPEAKER_03
And so I think I watched that pitch, and I break it down in the book of what happened to this brilliant guy who had one bad day.
1
SPEAKER_03
 And I think that you know he scripted those answers, he prepared for that pitch, and he had really good verbal answers.
1
SPEAKER_03
There was even a couple times where I think this thing happens for people who over-rehearse.
1
SPEAKER_03
So if you have an interview or a presentation, what do you do?
1
SPEAKER_03
You rehearse it, right?
1
SPEAKER_03
You practice the perfect answer.
1
SPEAKER_03
That can get in your way, though, because if you practice the perfect answer, this is exactly what happened to Siminoff, and very highly intelligent people do this.
1
SPEAKER_03
 He would hear a question from a shark, usually a challenging question, because they were really pushing him on the deal, and they didn't believe him.
1
SPEAKER_03
No one believed him.
1
SPEAKER_03
They all thought, oh no, it's too crowded of a market, it will never work.
1
SPEAKER_03
They literally said that to him.
1
SPEAKER_03
I have ring on my front door.
1
SPEAKER_03
And they literally said no.
1
SPEAKER_03
He could not get them to believe him, because what would happen was is they would ask him a question, he would start to answer it organically, and then he would switch into his rehearsed answer.
1
SPEAKER_03
So you would hear, oh yeah, we do have market track,
1
SPEAKER_03
 Our market traction has been wonderful.
1
SPEAKER_03
In fact, in the last five years, we've done X numbers, and you would be like, who is this robot?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, just say what's on your heart.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, just say it organically.
1
SPEAKER_03
Right.
1
SPEAKER_03
And so I think you can be the smartest person in the world.
1
SPEAKER_03
You could have the best ideas.
1
SPEAKER_03
But if you don't share them right, you're not helping people help you.
1
SPEAKER_03
 And so that's my – it drives me crazy when smart people can't get their ideas heard and that pitch crushed me.
1
SPEAKER_03
I felt so bad for him and he made it.
1
SPEAKER_03
He's okay now, right?
1
SPEAKER_03
He's doing really well.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then he was like a guest shark or whatever, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_03
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_03
And what's amazing is when you watch him walk into the tank as a shark,
1
SPEAKER_03
 you can see the difference, you can feel the difference.
1
SPEAKER_00
The confidence, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_03
Oh my, you know, he walks into the tent, he walks down the hallway, right?
1
SPEAKER_03
He walks down the hallway, he's smiling, he gestures, hey everyone, good to see you, he shakes hands, he does all the things he didn't do in that original pitch, and you can see the difference.
1
SPEAKER_03
And he's the same person, same person, same ideas, similar suits, but he looks like a different person.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Fascinating.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's not about what you say, it's how you say it.
1
SPEAKER_00
How you present yourself and your words.
1
SPEAKER_00
And your words?
1
SPEAKER_03
No, I'm just kidding.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'm curious about this.
1
SPEAKER_00
There's a big topic out there right now.
1
SPEAKER_00
I just did a recent interview with Dr. Romney, who is a therapist, psychologist, talking about narcissism a lot today.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Can you talk to me the difference between charisma and narcissism?
1
SPEAKER_00
And how can you spot when someone is actually warm and caring and charismatic versus someone who uses the skills or the tools of charisma in their narcissistic approach towards manipulating, controlling, and getting what they want in life?
1
SPEAKER_03
 So this is my biggest fear with this book.
1
SPEAKER_03
This is my single biggest fear, and it was an issue for me when I first started writing it, is I'm gonna be honest, you can use this book for manipulation.
1
SPEAKER_03
And that scares me.
1
SPEAKER_00
And when a smart person who's narcissistic is gonna study everything and then start using it.
1
SPEAKER_03
It scares me.
1
SPEAKER_00
 So how can you tell the difference, the subtle cues?
1
SPEAKER_00
These are very subtle now.
1
SPEAKER_03
Very subtle, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_03
So we're talking about big to subtle, right?
1
SPEAKER_03
There's like a range of them.
1
SPEAKER_03
So first is it is my biggest fear with this book that people do not have the right intentions.
1
SPEAKER_03
And my hope is that we can actually use these powers for good and not evil.
1
SPEAKER_03
That is the number one thing is you can if you want to.
1
SPEAKER_03
Here's the good news.
1
SPEAKER_03
 There are certain cues that we cannot control.
1
SPEAKER_03
And if you have bad intentions, they will leak.
1
SPEAKER_03
So I call these danger zone cues.
1
SPEAKER_03
So in the book I talk about there's four different types of cues.
1
SPEAKER_03
There's highly warm, nonverbal, verbal, and vocal.
1
SPEAKER_03
So these are things that make you highly warm, highly trustworthy, highly likable.
1
SPEAKER_03
There's highly competent cues, verbal, nonverbal, and vocal.
1
SPEAKER_03
And then there's charismatic, the ones that are just knocking it out of the park, like they're just great.
1
SPEAKER_03
And the last one is danger zone cues.
1
SPEAKER_03
 Danger zone cues are the cues that get us into trouble.
1
SPEAKER_03
They're the cues that liars use.
1
SPEAKER_03
They're the way that we leak guilt and shame.
1
SPEAKER_03
Actually, shame is not a bad thing.
1
SPEAKER_03
It's only when you have guilt that you've done something wrong.
1
SPEAKER_03
So in the danger zone, it is very hard to inhibit those cues.
1
SPEAKER_03
So I teach them because I want people to be able to spot them.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Okay, what are those cues?
1
SPEAKER_03
Okay, so there's a bunch and let's talk about as many as we can.
1
SPEAKER_00
And this might be someone who's very successful, someone who's accomplished a lot potentially, someone that seems very credible, someone that could be in a power position, owning a business or having influence online or something like that, right?
1
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Extremely successful, they could be successful, they could seem credible, trustworthy, but might be super narcissistic underneath.
1
SPEAKER_03
 Yes, so there's a couple danger zone cues that we can control, which a manipulative person could inhibit, right?
1
SPEAKER_03
So for example, one that I found that I talk about in the book is Lance Armstrong.
1
SPEAKER_03
So Lance Armstrong, for those who don't know, spoiler alert, Lance Armstrong was doping.
1
SPEAKER_03
So someone was like, there was spoilers in the book.
1
SPEAKER_03
And I was like, you haven't heard of that news yet?
1
SPEAKER_03
 I also talk about Britney Spears in the book because there's some really interesting cues on her which I think why we're worried about her, why her fans worry.
1
SPEAKER_03
She shows a lot of danger zone cues.
1
SPEAKER_03
So Lance Armstrong in one of his early interviews on Larry King Live, he's asked about doping and he does what's called a lip purse.
1
SPEAKER_03
So a lip purse is…
3
SPEAKER_01
 the 10 initial lessons of being a competent communicator.
3
SPEAKER_01
One of the exercises is to give a five-minute speech using tonality.
3
SPEAKER_01
You have to find the cues of when you like pause and slow, and then you bring it over.
3
SPEAKER_01
It's like, how do you make it authentic?
3
SPEAKER_00
Some people do it naturally.
3
SPEAKER_00
They're so good at it.
3
SPEAKER_00
 That is not me.
3
SPEAKER_00
That's why I don't have a podcast.
3
SPEAKER_00
That's why I have a YouTube channel, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Like on YouTube, I can use my gestures and my facial expressions.
3
SPEAKER_00
It's why I don't have a podcast.
3
SPEAKER_00
I feel I am not dynamic enough in my vocal power.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so that's one cue that I work on, but I have a hard time being in control of my volume.
3
SPEAKER_01
 Okay, so we have that, these hand gestures, this is fine on the table also?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yep, all good, relaxed and good.
3
SPEAKER_01
What about hands open on the table?
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so let's talk about palm up versus palm down.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so when I was using for the book, I was looking for my favorite or cues hiding in plain sight.
3
SPEAKER_00
Those are my favorite.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I just used it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Those are my favorite.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you did.
3
SPEAKER_00
That was very organic.
3
SPEAKER_01
It's very natural.
3
SPEAKER_00
I'm really happy right now.
3
SPEAKER_01
It's like you're speaking to a girlfriend, just naturally flowing through.
3
SPEAKER_00
Let me tell you a secret.
3
SPEAKER_00
 Yeah, okay, so that was great, that was very exciting, I feel very excited.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so I love cues hiding in plain sight, and so I had a lot of political examples, a lot of celebrity examples, and Britney and Lance Armstrong, but I wanted historical examples, and so I was looking at famous paintings, and I noticed The Last Supper, painted by Leonardo da Vinci, has hidden cues in it.
3
SPEAKER_00
You'll notice that the way that it's positioned, Christ is positioned in the middle, so da Vinci positioned in the middle, okay.
3
SPEAKER_00
 Most people do not realize that in that picture, Christ is doing this.
3
SPEAKER_00
He has one palm up and one palm down.
3
SPEAKER_00
It's hard to see it in that shot.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh yeah, his left palm is up and the right palm is down on the table, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Now this is very interesting because most people don't look at this right away, but why?
3
SPEAKER_00
Why is he doing that?
3
SPEAKER_01
Why would he put his hand like that?
3
SPEAKER_00
 Somebody put his hand like that, and what do those mean?
3
SPEAKER_00
So let's look at the research.
3
SPEAKER_00
Palms open are universal gestures of openness.
3
SPEAKER_00
When we want something, what do we do?
3
SPEAKER_00
We hold open our hand.
3
SPEAKER_01
Give it to me.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
When we're offering something, what do we do?
3
SPEAKER_00
We hold open our hand.
3
SPEAKER_00
When we're open to suggestion, we show our palm and we have it visible.
3
SPEAKER_00
A palm down gesture is a high competence cue.
3
SPEAKER_00
It shows dominance.
3
SPEAKER_00
It shows directiveness.
3
SPEAKER_00
 You might think of, I won't mention them by name, some famous dictators of the past who did palm down gestures.
3
SPEAKER_00
Why?
3
SPEAKER_00
That is a very dominant gesture.
3
SPEAKER_00
When you are giving, people are giving directives, they often say, be quiet, sit down.
3
SPEAKER_00
 Right?
3
SPEAKER_00
I don't want to hear from you right now.
3
SPEAKER_00
It's a very direct.
3
SPEAKER_01
Dismissive too, in a sense, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Especially if you shake it at someone.
3
SPEAKER_00
So why would we have these two cues?
3
SPEAKER_00
They perfectly balance each other out.
3
SPEAKER_00
Christ is depicted as the highest, most charismatic person in the painting.
3
SPEAKER_00
So what does he do?
3
SPEAKER_00
He literally balances warmth and competence.
3
SPEAKER_00
He's showing the universal gesture of openness and giving, while at the same time, a universal gesture of direct authority.
3
SPEAKER_01
When was this painting?
3
SPEAKER_00
 1498?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
So da Vinci, I think, hid cues that signaled the viewer, wow, he's charismatic.
3
SPEAKER_00
The takeaway from this, by the way, is if you're giving a directive and you don't want it to be questioned, you're better off giving palms down.
3
SPEAKER_00
You're better off saying, listen, team, we've got to get this done.
3
SPEAKER_00
We've got to be efficient.
3
SPEAKER_00
We've got to be streamlined.
3
SPEAKER_00
 I need you to do it for me.
3
SPEAKER_01
Just go, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Just go, just do it.
3
SPEAKER_00
If you want feedback, like when I take Q&A, I'm like, what can I do?
3
SPEAKER_00
What questions can I answer?
3
SPEAKER_00
I'm giving open.
3
SPEAKER_00
That's a very, very subtle but very powerful cue.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so that's how Christ is depicted balancing.
3
SPEAKER_00
The other thing that he does is if you measure the amount of space that Christ takes up in the painting, you'll notice he takes up the most space.
3
SPEAKER_00
 he literally has the most distance between his shoulder and his earlobes.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes, because he's tilting.
3
SPEAKER_00
So tilting is a warmth gesture.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so he's the only pictured person who is head tilt with also expansive posture.
3
SPEAKER_00
So there's all these hidden cues that I think paint this picture behind what's happening.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now, if you look at Judas, if you didn't know anything about this history, Judas would be the character painted with the most intrigue.
3
SPEAKER_00
If you notice, he's also holding a clenched fist.
3
SPEAKER_00
 He's the only character in the picture who has a clenched fist and is distancing.
3
SPEAKER_00
He's literally turning his body away from us.
3
SPEAKER_00
And we know, we already talked about the distancing is a danger zone cue.
3
SPEAKER_00
So here is the person who is later about to betray Christ.
3
SPEAKER_00
And how does Da Vinci signal that?
3
SPEAKER_00
He hides cues.
3
SPEAKER_00
He shows a clenched fist, which shows withholding and anger.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then he shows that he's about to lie, that he literally turns his body away.
3
SPEAKER_00
 The reason I show this is because I think that we don't realize there's these cues being sent to us all the time.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, I do a lot of breakdowns on my YouTube channel of politicians and we don't realize even when we look at political campaigns in one picture there's thousands of cues being sent to us and we should know what's being sent to us.
3
SPEAKER_01
The thumb pinch.
3
SPEAKER_00
 Oh, the thumb pinch.
3
SPEAKER_01
This is Obama, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
OK.
3
SPEAKER_01
He did this all the time, didn't he?
3
SPEAKER_00
So here's what's funny is Obama used to be a pointer.
3
SPEAKER_00
We don't like being pointed at.
3
SPEAKER_00
So there's something about it as humans.
3
SPEAKER_00
It's like, let me tell you what to do.
3
SPEAKER_00
It's kind of a better than.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I think he was coached because all of a sudden, he never pointed again, and he only used the thumb pinch.
3
SPEAKER_00
The thumb pinch is a very clever gesture because in Western cultures, this means good job, thumbs up, good job, or like me.
3
SPEAKER_00
 Like literally, social media, like, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
This is what we see.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, like, like, like, give me a like.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so the thumb pinch is a very subtle thumbs up gesture.
3
SPEAKER_00
So every time he does it, it makes you think, oh, first of all, it's not, he never clenches.
3
SPEAKER_01
It's relaxed.
3
SPEAKER_01
It's relaxed.
3
SPEAKER_01
It's kind of like an open thumb.
3
SPEAKER_00
It's an open thumb because he's saying A-OK, A-OK, like, like, like.
3
SPEAKER_00
And he's also saying, this is a point I want you to remember.
3
SPEAKER_00
It literally looks like a bullet point.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right, right.
3
SPEAKER_00
I'm going to give you a point that you should remember.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_00
And Obama, I'm going to do an Obama impression.
3
SPEAKER_00
It's going to embarrass us both.
3
SPEAKER_00
OK?
3
SPEAKER_00
It's OK.
3
SPEAKER_00
 I'm not very good at impressions, but Obama does this thing that I just, I find so interesting.
3
SPEAKER_00
So Obama uses a downward inflection.
3
SPEAKER_00
So we talked about the question inflection, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
So when we go up at the end of our sentences, Obama goes down at the end of his sentences.
3
SPEAKER_00
He literally slings down his words, and downward inflection we hear is very authoritative.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I'm gonna do an Obama impression, okay?
3
SPEAKER_00
So this is him slinging down his words.
3
SPEAKER_00
He goes, Sasha, Malia,
3
SPEAKER_00
 It's very important that what we do today is going to be remembered forever.
3
SPEAKER_00
And if we don't do those things, we are going to be in deep trouble.
3
SPEAKER_00
That's a terrible Obama preface, but you can hear what I'm saying, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
He slings his words down and that is very authoritative.
3
SPEAKER_00
So even that vocal cue makes us think, well, he knows what he's talking about.
3
SPEAKER_01
It's more authoritative, more confident.
3
SPEAKER_00
It's more authoritative versus if he were to say, Sasha,
3
SPEAKER_00
 Malia, I have something really important to tell you.
3
SPEAKER_00
It's really important we do this for our future.
3
SPEAKER_00
Could you imagine if he gave speeches like that?
3
SPEAKER_00
And so even that vocal inflection worked for him because he also creates a lot of space in his mouth.
3
SPEAKER_00
He has a lot of space in the middle part of his mouth, so he talks very deeply in his mouth, and that helps keep his resonance really low because he has this space in the back of his mouth, and that creates a lot of resonance.
3
SPEAKER_00
 Thank you.
3
SPEAKER_01
That's a good impression.
3
SPEAKER_01
I like it.
3
SPEAKER_01
Thanks.
3
SPEAKER_01
That was good.
3
SPEAKER_00
You're not embarrassed for me?
3
SPEAKER_00
Good.
3
SPEAKER_01
No, it was great.
3
SPEAKER_00
It's because he creates this low resonance point and we like it.
3
SPEAKER_00
So that downward inflection is really important.
3
SPEAKER_01
So many great cues in here, the power of the pause, the pause for power.
3
SPEAKER_00
So a mistake that I used to make is I would pause the end of my sentence before continuing on to my next sentence and I'd get interrupted.
3
SPEAKER_00
 Right?
3
SPEAKER_00
So a mistake that people will make is they'll give a thought, pause, and then keep speaking.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now, pauses are quite powerful.
3
SPEAKER_00
Powerful people typically use pauses in their speech.
3
SPEAKER_00
But if you pause in between your sentences, people will interrupt you because they think you're done.
3
SPEAKER_00
You're actually better off using what I call a power pause.
3
SPEAKER_00
A power pause is when you pause right before you give something away.
3
SPEAKER_01
Did I do it?
3
SPEAKER_01
So not the end of a sentence.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_01
In the middle of a sentence, before you're going to share something.
3
SPEAKER_01
 Really.
3
SPEAKER_01
So let me tell you something really important.
3
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
3
SPEAKER_00
So like, so, so the, here's the mistake that people make is they'll say something really important happened in my childhood that I want to tell you about.
3
SPEAKER_00
Pause.
3
SPEAKER_00
It was when I was okay.
3
SPEAKER_00
People are like, should I talk to you?
3
SPEAKER_00
Should I ask you another question?
3
SPEAKER_00
What should I say?
3
SPEAKER_00
It actually creates conversational confusion, which is the last thing you want versus I want to share a really important story from my childhood.
3
SPEAKER_00
That creates a lot more intrigue because like a story, Oh, from
3
SPEAKER_00
 from your childhood, and I have no desire to interrupt.
3
SPEAKER_00
So that's a very advanced tip.
3
SPEAKER_00
That's towards the end of the book.
3
SPEAKER_00
It's a very advanced tip because if you have trouble with people interrupting you, I would practice switching your pauses and think about that.
3
SPEAKER_00
What's the drama you can give?
3
SPEAKER_01
Drama.
3
SPEAKER_01
Create the drama.
3
SPEAKER_00
Volume, pauses, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
And by the way, Obama did that very well.
3
SPEAKER_00
He would deliver a point, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
He would go into his residence and he would say, what this country needs is better.
3
SPEAKER_00
 Systems, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
I'm saying nothing, but you're like, what's better?
3
SPEAKER_00
What is it?
3
SPEAKER_00
What is the thing that we need?
3
SPEAKER_01
It's not what you say, it's how you say it.
3
SPEAKER_01
That's it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Although how you say it is important, too.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, you need the competence, too.
3
SPEAKER_00
That's the last chapter.
3
SPEAKER_00
So the last chapter I have to end on is verbal, because yes, we spend a lot of the book talking about nonverbal and vocal, but your words matter, as we talked about with achievement-oriented words.
3
SPEAKER_00
But man, if you can deliver achievement-oriented words with power pausing, with a steeple,
3
SPEAKER_00
 Look out, look out world, you're coming.
3
SPEAKER_01
That's big.
3
SPEAKER_01
I am a big believer that the most important thing we can do is learn how to heal the different traumas or triggers from our past that get us in a reactive state when the world is happening.
3
SPEAKER_01
And we become uptight, reactive, we say things we don't wanna say, we regret the things we do, we act out, whatever it might be.
3
SPEAKER_01
 healing the past memories, pain, frustrations, whatever you want to call it, I think is one of the most powerful things.
3
SPEAKER_01
The second most powerful thing we can do is learn how to master the art of communication and learn how to be comfortable in our own skin and our own voice.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, How to Win Friends and Influence People was a book that was extremely powerful for so many people to learn how to socially connect.
3
SPEAKER_01
And again, in life, we are either enrolling other people in us and our vision or we're unenrolling them in us and our vision based on how we communicate
3
SPEAKER_01
 how we connect with people, whether we're trustworthy or untrustworthy.
3
SPEAKER_01
This book and your research and studies and content has been extremely powerful for so many people, including myself.
3
SPEAKER_01
I learn a lot, and I feel like this is something I'm always studying, because I feel like you can never learn enough of understanding the science of people.
3
SPEAKER_01
 And so I, one, want people to learn how to continue to heal.
3
SPEAKER_01
It's a journey.
3
SPEAKER_01
But two, I want them to learn how to understand people.
3
SPEAKER_01
Again, if we go back to the quote that changed my early adult life, which was, people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.
3
SPEAKER_01
If you can learn how to communicate that to people, it'll take you much farther.
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 You can get by with less skills and less smarts if you understand how to be deeply empathetic and have connection skills with other people.
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It'll take you a long way.
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Eventually, you gotta have some competence in there and be skilled at something.
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And of course, everyone who's watching does, right?
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We know that.
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You gotta have skills, and I think it's always important to invest in developing new skills as well to make you more competent.
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 This this book your work is extremely valuable and important cues master the secret language of charismatic communication small signals incredible impact Vanessa van Edwards, I want everyone to get this book I want you to buy a few copies for your friends for the introvert friends in your life for the socially awkward friends for the anxious friends Charisma is a is a superpower.
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It's a superpower
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 It is a superpower when used correctly.
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And here's the thing, if you use it incorrectly, you'll be humbled at some point in your life.
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That's right.
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Eventually bad things will happen and they'll keep happening over and over.
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And it will drain you.
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Drain you.
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So you're going to be humbled by the world if you don't use humility with your charisma.
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But I'm very excited about the book.
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I can't wait to dive in more and go back to this interview even more.
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 I want people to get the book.
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They can follow you on the website, scienceofpeople.com, which has got an amazing newsletter that I subscribe to and get a lot of wisdom from.
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Thank you.
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You're always sharing new research and all that stuff in there.
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Scienceofpeople.com, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, Van Edwards.
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That's me.
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Everywhere on social media.
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Your YouTube as well.
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It's extremely fun to watch.
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You just break down all these things visually.
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 Yes, so there was a couple things I didn't get to put in the book because they were too visual.
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It was just too hard to explain it.
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So if you want to just get a little taste test, I break down The Rock because who doesn't want to see dozens of cues from The Rock?
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So I break down The Rock.
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I do a deep dive of Britney Spears because that was a whole book.
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I didn't have time to do it.
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I do Morgan Freeman.
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How does he get that vocal power?
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I talk about how he does it.
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Princess Diana.
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Why were we so intrigued by her?
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And Justin Bieber.
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So I break down some cues in there if you just want a little taste.
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 And that's all Science of People, or is that?
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That's on YouTube and on Science of People.
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And we have our interview on there, too.
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So if people want to go watch that, they can.
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Yes.
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Final two questions before I ask them.
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I want to acknowledge you, Vanessa, for constantly showing up.
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I think introverts who felt like they grew up socially awkward takes a lot of courage to put yourself out there, to constantly be in front of a camera, to be speaking on stages, to be learning this work and then sharing your work.
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I think it's really challenging to do for introverts.
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 So for the journey you've been on to try to... Healing.
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Yeah, exactly.
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Healing is big too.
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But the journey you've had and you constantly keep showing up and putting this work out there is really inspiring.
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So I acknowledge you for that.
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Thank you.
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I asked you this question before, but this is called the three truths question.
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Imagine it's your last day on earth many years away.
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 And for whatever reason, all of your work has to go with you to another place.
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So no one has access to your content.
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If you could leave three lessons to the world behind, what would you say would be those three lessons for you?
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Life is too short to fake it.
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Find the real warmth or the real competence or get rid of it.
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 There are unique flavors of charisma.
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You don't have to be the bubbly extrovert.
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You can be the wise, competent sage, or the quiet, powerful leader, or the empathetic, compassionate healer.
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Those are all charismatic, very different flavors.
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And lastly, your words have power.
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Your cues have power.
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Don't waste them.
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 we can change someone's physiology with a single word.
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So with every word you put out there, think about how can you infect people for good.
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That is powerful.
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What's the most powerful word we can infect someone with in a positive way?
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 I think gratitude.
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I think every time you say thank you, I'm appreciative, I'm grateful, you're gifting them honor and you're feeling grateful yourself.
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It's the only word I can think of that has a double effect both ways.
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So can I end on gratitude?
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I want to thank you so much because you created a tipping point in my career where you believed in me, you listened to me wholeheartedly and you put my work out there and people
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 Listen and they were it was a total tipping point in my career.
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And so You made me do podcasts.
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You made me realize I can do them in their safe spaces.
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Yeah, which I was a little afraid of You made me realize that I can find my people and I just have to speak to them And so I just and you're and you're always that you always say yes, how can I help which I'm so grateful for?
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Oh, I
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 I appreciate it.
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Thank you.
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Thank you in return.
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You know, it's interesting, the appreciation, the word gratitude and appreciation.
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Right when you said that, it made me reflect on my girlfriend and how I feel like every day I tell her how much I appreciate her.
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You know, I'm like, gosh, I'm so grateful for how you did this or just this thing you did for me.
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I appreciate it so much.
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 And every time I do it, now that I reflect on it, she's always just like, I don't know, it just warms her up even more.
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Yes, yes.
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Because we don't often feel gratitude in our relationships, right?
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Especially, I've been married for 10 years with my husband for 16 years.
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And you get very caught up in the logistics.
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And so for anyone who's watching, I think we take the people we love for granted.
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 We think about giving gifts of words to our colleagues or to our clients or to our customers, but don't forget the person you live with.
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Don't forget the person you care about.
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Don't get stuck in the logistics, right?
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Where you're like, hey, honey, take the kids.
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And so I think that gratitude is especially important at home.
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And I think the more comfortable we are, the less we are gracious, the less gratitude we have.
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And so I hope that 10, 20, 30 years.
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Yeah, that's the key.
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I mean, everyone in their first, I guess, year or two, you're like, oh, I love you so much.
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You're amazing.
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 Not everyone.
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No, not everyone.
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No, not everyone.
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And so I would say like... Even the first couple of years?
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No, I think saying that to her is a gift.
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And so if just your goal is 10 years from now you can say that to her again, what a beautiful goal.
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Often she'll be like, you're the most amazing man ever.
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And I'm like, I don't feel like I'm doing anything.
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I'm just saying I appreciate you.
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I'm just like, man, I really, I'm so grateful you just did this.
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Thank you.
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I really appreciate the way you said this.
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Like, I don't think I'm like doing something extraordinary, you know what I mean?
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No, it's big.
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 She's like, you have no idea.
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Yeah, it's like, you're the most amazing man.
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I'm like, I'm not like doing some grand gesture.
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I'm literally just saying like, I'm focusing on something that I really appreciate that she did every day.
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And I'm like, I really appreciate the way you showed up here, here, here.
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 And that's why I think gratitude is the most powerful word there is.
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Because just being appreciative of her makes her think of it as a grand gesture.
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Imagine that.
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One word of gratitude is a grand gesture.
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It doesn't take a boat ride down the water.
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It doesn't take 12 dozen roses.
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It's just telling someone you appreciate them.
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And if that's one thing you take away from this interview, that you will right now text someone that you love them and you appreciate them and thank them for being them.
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That's big.
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People remember that stuff.
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That's a gift.
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 People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.
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Final question, what's your definition of greatness?
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I love this because this is my third time here and I think my definition has changed over time.
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It's being an integrity, so it's going back to that important thing.
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Greatness is
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 showing up as you are, how you feel, and feeling free to be that way.
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So that means you like the people in your life, you respect the people in your life, you're showing up congruent, you're showing up with lots of integrity where your cues match your words, which match your emotions.
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And I think that I am my greatest self when I can show up somewhere as myself and not worry about having to hide, fake, or change.
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Vanessa, thanks so much.
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Appreciate it.
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Thank you.
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Thanks for listening.
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 Thank you so much for listening.
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I hope you enjoyed today's episode and inspired you on your journey towards greatness.
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Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links.
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And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple podcasts as well.
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 I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most.
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And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.
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And now it's time to go out there and do something great.