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My friend, I am such a big believer that your mindset is everything.
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It can really dictate if your life has meaning, has value, and you feel fulfilled, or if you feel exhausted, drained, and like you re never going to be enough.
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Our brand new book, The Greatness Mindset, just hit the New York Times Best Seller back-to-back weeks.
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And I m so excited to hear from so many of you who ve bought the book, who ve read it, and have finished it already, and are getting incredible results from the lessons in the book.
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If you haven t got a copy yet,
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You ll learn how to build a plan for greatness through powerful exercises and toolkits designed to propel your life forward.
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This is the book I wish I had when I was 20, struggling, trying to figure out life.
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10 years ago at 30, trying to figure out transitions in my life and the book
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I m glad I have today for myself.
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Make sure to get a copy at lewishouse.com slash 2023 mindset to get your copy today.
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Again, lewishouse.com slash 2023 mindset to get a copy today.
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Also, the book is on audible now so you can get it on audiobook as well.
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And don t forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode.
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I had a meeting once and I leaned forward and I said, you re a good leader.
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I can make you a great leader.
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And the guys tables went ding and I tripled my price.
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You re smart.
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Welcome to the School of Greatness.
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My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur.
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And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness.
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Thanks for spending some time with me today.
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Now let the class begin.
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Welcome back, everyone at the School of Greatness.
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Very excited about our guest.
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We have the inspiring Annie Seinblad in the house.
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Good to see you.
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Thank you so much for being here.
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Thank you for having me.
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I just want to share a quick bio about you.
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You re often referred to as a human lie detector.
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You re a globally recognized speaker and strategic advisor to some of the most powerful human beings in the world, specifically in Fortune 500 companies.
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And the author of this new book called The Diary of a Human Lie Detector, Facial Expressions in Love, Lust, and Lies.
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And already within first 15 minutes of meeting you, I felt like you have so much more information than I knew you had by just analyzing my facial expression and by giving me some cues already about what I m doing and I guess things I could improve on potentially, but you have
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seen a lot and you ve studied a lot.
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There s actually a certification that you have.
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What is it called?
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This FACS, it was called, which is Facial Action Coding Systems.
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And it is a background on scientifically backed micro-expressions and the ability to numerically code 10,000 muscle combinations in human expression.
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For me, I don t know how you do that because it just seems like how many facial expressions are there
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first off, that we can put words on.
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And what are the ones that we should be really looking for when we re first meeting or interacting with anyone, whether it s a potential love interest, whether it s a potential friend, a business colleague or partner, a boss, what should we be looking for?
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And how many how many facial expressions are there?
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OK, so that s a lot of questions at once.
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That s really exciting.
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So let me start off with the facial action coding system was developed by a couple of behavioral scientists based on the work of Darwin.
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Darwin wrote in 1872 about the expressions of man and animals.
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And he realized that going from tribe to tribe, where people had no connection to each other, that he could start into years and years of going into civilizations where people didn t have connection
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to much of the outside world.
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He started to write down and chart and
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dissect the different muscle combinations in human expression, because he started to notice, even if he didn t understand the language, he could see if someone was angry, if they were happy, if they were afraid, if they were feeling surprised, for example, and that those facial expressions were the same.
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So the work that I m doing, it s ironic because I m an anthropologist, so I should be looking at culture, right?
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But the work that I m doing is hardwired into us.
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It s the universal language of humans, us as a species.
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Doesn t matter geography, doesn t matter your age, your socialization.
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Even people who are born blind make the same facial expressions.
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It s universal.
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Universal, doesn t matter what language you speak, doesn t matter where you re from in the world, we all make similar facial expressions.
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Is facial expression, do we all make similar body expressions too?
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And are they different, facial expression and body language?
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So body language varies from person to person.
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You and your brother could react differently with your body language.
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But your facial expressions will be the same.
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Really?
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Yes.
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The facial expressions are all the same.
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So think about it.
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So look more at the face, not the body.
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Right.
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So I can talk about body language a little bit when we get further into this.
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But think about it when you re scared.
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I mean, right now I m a little nervous because we ve just met for the first time.
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And we re being filmed.
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And this is kind of exciting.
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And I ve read your books, seen your podcast.
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So my hands are cold.
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Well, it s also cold in the room.
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I make it cold in here, babe.
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Yeah, on purpose.
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But the reality is that the blood, when I m afraid or nervous, the blood rushes down to my legs and my feet so that I can run.
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Ah, interesting.
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When we re angry, it pumps into our fists so that we are ready to fight.
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When we human beings are sad, we cry.
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When we re nervous, we sweat, palms of our hands and our armpits, sometimes on the brows, right?
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When we re aroused, the blood pools into the middle of our bodies.
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We would not survive as a species if this were not true.
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Interesting.
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Okay, so that was like the oh crap.
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That was the oh crap, and here she goes.
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But the reality is that every emotion leads to a change in blood flow and muscle movement in our bodies and on our faces.
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We have a physiological response to emotion.
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So what influences the emotion?
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Is it a thought that we generate or a thought that we?
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Well, that s a really good question.
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So if I have a really hot cup of coffee and I touch the coffee, the first thing that happens is I move my fingers back.
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I don t think, oh my goodness, this is hot with my brain.
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My body, the muscle movement, comes first.
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the microexpressions precede the thought process.
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So I can t, even after my years and years and years of training, I can t stop myself from making microexpressions unless I change what I m thinking about.
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unless you re intentional about the thought.
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You re like, OK, there s going to be loud noises.
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I m going to act calm and relaxed, even though my body would probably flinch or react or turn around or see what s happening around me, right?
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The body reacts based on its environment, sounds, words, expressions, right?
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Right, which is why those of us who have experienced trauma, we get triggered really, really quickly.
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Very easily.
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Right?
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And so when I said that trauma, you did the rectangle of your mouth, the tendons of your neck jump.
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That s fear.
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That s oh, crap.
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That s a response, and you pull your upper eyelids back.
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Okay, so that s also fear.
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We make this full facial expression of fear, the macro.
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We pull our upper eyelids way back.
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We show the sclera, which is the white above our eyes, and we make our mouth into this giant rectangle.
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Why is that?
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Okay, so the pulling back of the upper eyelids is so that we gauge our exits.
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and opening our mouth into a huge rectangle so that we can scream for help.
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And so what I call the oh crap is just that little piece of the rectangle.
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And it s the only expression that makes the tendons of our necks jump.
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So even if I m looking eye to eye and I see that little tendon, something was unsettling to you.
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Now, is this an observation of us, you know, mirroring and mimicking our parents or siblings when we were younger or watching expressions of others?
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Or if we weren t able to see anyone, would we constantly create this intuitively in our DNA?
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All day long.
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Really?
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It s hardwired into us.
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So it s not a mimic?
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It s not a mimic.
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Because we mimic a lot of body language and languages.
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We do.
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Yeah, we mirror a lot of body language and mirror.
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And so... We re like parrots, right?
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Right.
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But so if you were really stressed,
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and you come in and you keep puckering your chin because you re having a really, really hard time.
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And they say, Louis, how are you doing today?
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And you say, great.
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And I m like, oh, honey, do you need a hug?
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Even though your word said great, you re puckering your chin because you re feeling sad and vulnerable, right?
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So I know that microexpressions are the very deepest of listening skills.
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You can tell easily if someone s lying based on facial expression.
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Yes, because a facial expression won t match the words.
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So that s what we re always looking at.
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So for example, if you say, great, when you show vulnerability, well, you re not feeling so great.
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You re maybe not trying to deceive me on a deep level.
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You re just trying to kind of fake it till you make it.
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So if you say, I hate broccoli, and you show disgust, when we have little children,
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When we have little children, this is what I call the no face.
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But it s got three main pieces.
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The macro, which is a big expression.
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It s got the wrinkles next to the nose, the deepening of the nasolabial furrow, and the pulling of the upper lip.
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Did you have that girl in seventh grade is like, are you going to wear that?
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Are you going to wear that?
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Like, really?
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So I take the micro expressions and the way that I have been able to advance the field of science is I teach the one thing that s significant to each expression, each emotion.
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So with disgust,
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If you just look for nostril shadows, I mean, I speak all these different languages, so my thing is translating.
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So I needed to take this entire field and teach it to my little kids so they could protect themselves.
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Keep them safe.
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Yeah, keep them safe.
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And so we call it the no face.
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And so if you have deep shadows right next to your nose, that s no, I don t want to.
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That smells bad.
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That s icky.
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And the big expression of disgust actually shuts off our nasal passages up to about 80%.
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That s what it s there for.
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But we make that same expression when something is socially toxic.
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Like, I don t want to.
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So if you say, Annie, tomorrow, I want you to come over at 5am and we re going to sit down, we re going to process a lot of this for three or four hours.
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And I go,
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Whereas, that doesn t mean I don t like you.
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It just means like, dude, I don t want to get up at five in the morning.
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I don t want to do it, or I ve already double bugged, or there s just a quick no.
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It s just a little flicker of no.
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And so if I m saying I hate broccoli, oh man, I will not give you broccoli.
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You do not want to eat broccoli.
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I will not serve you broccoli.
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But if you re saying, yeah, I m really happy to do this interview with you, Annie, today, I m going, oh, honey, no, you re not.
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What have you seen for yourself personally, and with the work you ve done with high-powerful individuals, are the three main benefits of mastering the art of facial communication?
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So empathy and safety are what I call connection and protection.
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OK.
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So when we see what someone else is really feeling, we can adjust.
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We can help.
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We can love them better.
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We can teach them.
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We can lead them better.
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We can, you know, if somebody is really feeling uncomfortable, we know that they re feeling uncomfortable, and we can ask them questions, and we can offer help.
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Right.
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If someone, for example, is in a mergers and acquisitions situation, and you say, OK, so I m buying your company.
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I need to know that your technology is going to be ready in three months.
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And they go, absolutely.
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And that s the fear, right?
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Yeah, yeah.
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So your body s betraying you.
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Your body is saying that you don t believe.
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So do I know that you don t have the technology ready?
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No.
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But I know that you know there s some.
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Your body is telling me there s something off.
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And so maybe it s just more information to say, okay, I could go forward, but it could be a greater risk.
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It shows us where to dig.
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Right.
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Let me dig in deeper on that.
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That s fascinating.
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Is it possible, like even with you knowing this and studying this for so long, is it possible for you to lie and get away with it facially as well?
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Like, or is our body so intuitive that we could say a word and the body is just going to say the true meaning behind that word?
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So a really good spy can create two parallel lines of existing.
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It s probably just so uncomfortable, or you have to disassociate with your mind and say, well, this is for a greater purpose or greater service, so I m going to act as if I m this person.
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Right, and why it s even really difficult for those of us who have loved ones who act.
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because they re putting themselves in, right?
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And so you re going to, you re soon to be wife, right?
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You re going to have to have extra compassion when she s doing a role that demands a lot of emotion.
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It s very hard to just take off those clothes afterwards.
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And so her body is going to believe she s been through that trauma if she s doing a traumatic role.
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Yeah, luckily she hasn t done any traumatic stuff.
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She s done a lot more lighthearted, romantic comedies, so it s a little bit easier, I think.
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That s a little easier.
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But you still have to play a character.
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Yes.
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And so, I mean, I think about, and my kids tease me about this all the time, because I m always looking at these different actors, and musicians too, and going, oh my god, who s parenting this person?
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Who s taking care of them?
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Because when we put ourselves through emotions, our body believes, our brain believes we re going through it.
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I found that for myself, when I teach, and I m holding the expression, like, you know, holding full on fear.
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Your body feels it.
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My body thinks, my brain thinks I ve lived it.
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You re in fight or flight.
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And so I would burst into tears the day after, even though there s nothing dramatic going on in my own life.
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You needed a release afterwards, yeah.
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So I need a 90 minute massage afterwards.
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That is fascinating because, I mean, I grew up in the world of sports and playing football.
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It was such a switch of a mentality, getting on the field, one, for safety, to put yourself in a warrior state.
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Because it is a warrior state.
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I even had an alter ego, an alter ego that when I crossed the line, I stepped into a warrior.
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Did you have a name with alter ego?
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Well, my alter ego was Jerry Rice, to be honest.
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Because as a wide receiver, I was like, OK, more of a visualization alter ego.
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But I embodied a character of inflicting as much pain as possible on people.
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That was like a survival mechanism.
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Right, and that s a lot for your body.
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Exactly.
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It was like, how can I inflict as much pain as possible to dominate and win?
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And then afterwards, you need time to shed that character, in a sense.
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You need time to shed it, to process it.
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Sometimes I d be in a bad mood afterwards, or just like, all right, I need a night to just sleep it off and get back to a loving, peaceful state.
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Right, it would be hard to go from there to go on a date and be soft and warm and snuggly, right?
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But yeah, it s challenging for, I think, actors or athletes or musicians who have to play a character night after night and get back to a state of who they are, I would say.
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And think about even, I mean, so one of the things when you re telling me this, I m thinking, well, at least you were moving in all of this.
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At least you had an outlet.
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So, like, physically there was some result of this.
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And I was tired, too, at the end.
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I was exhausted.
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So, like, okay.
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So, if you just, if you re acting and there s no physical piece of that, then you re just stuck with all this sort of nervous energy and trauma.
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Interesting.
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That s really interesting.
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So, you really wanted to master this, one, for yourself, but also be able to teach your kids on how to be safe.
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What are the things you really teach them to look out for from their early childhood to teen years and then now into some of them into their professional lives?
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What were you teaching then and now?
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So the biggest piece is that the facial expressions need to match the words.
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So, nice to see you.
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That s disgusting contempt.
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That s growling.
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A grown man growling at a child, that s a problem.
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That s predatory behavior.
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Yeah.
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And for those only listening, if you go to the YouTube, you ll be able to watch Annie s facial expression as you re explaining this.
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But yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I have them all across my site.
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I just recently started to put up
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All the expressions, it s on my website, it s on my socials, it s on YouTube.
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I m putting them out into the world so that other people can learn them to keep themselves safe.
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But the main focus for my little kids, when they were pre-verbal, we did a lot of mirroring.
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You know how you can get little babies, even before they start to speak, you can get them to stick out their tongue when you stick out your tongue.
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Raise your eyebrows, smile.
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I have one kid that still does this.
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A lot of like crazy eyes, I would get them to mirror a lot of and make sounds to the facial expressions.
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So we practice the big macro expressions and I would put words to them in the same way I d be, you know, coffee, apple, banana.
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So, they ve never not had words for expressions.
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And babies know this innately.
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It s our universal human language.
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It s the language on which we build spoken language.
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So, our facial expressions are across all cultures.
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It s a species thing.
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But the sounds we make for different words are different.
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But we use that.
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If you re looking at me and you re going, I know that s something bad.
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And if you re looking at me and your cheeks are popping up,
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So let me ask you this.
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How can you tell if someone s giving you a real smile?
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If they re smizing.
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Smizing.
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What s smizing?
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Kind of like right there.
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Yeah.
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Your eyes are kind of like crow eyes.
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OK, so I can give you crow s feet.
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Oh, yeah.
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With a really fake smile.
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But the bottom half is not there, yeah.
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It s all in our cheeks.
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Is it?
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OK.
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OK, so when we re happy, our cheeks pop up.
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And then this skin is usually flat.
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Uh-huh.
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And we get smile bags.
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Ah, OK, yeah.
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So if we have smile bags,
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So the cheeks are pushing up against the eyes.
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Yeah, it has nothing to do with the mouth.
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Because you can fake smile, but you re not authentic smiling.
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Gotcha.
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Interesting.
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So all you have to do is look at the skin right here.
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If it s fat, they re happy.
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And that was my four-year-old saying to me when I took them out.
0
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I took my kids.
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We lived in Singapore when they were little.
0
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And I would take them out into the world and live narrate, almost like a nature show, in Swedish.
0
SPEAKER_01
Really?
0
SPEAKER_01
Because we spoke Swedish.
0
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So I d take my kids.
0
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So you d see someone walking and you re having a conversation.
1
SPEAKER_01
with each other, you say, they re doing this, they re doing this.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and then most of the time I do what you do, which is ask the questions.
1
SPEAKER_00
What do you see?
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, kind of like there s a book, I can t remember what the children s book is called, but it s like Big Bear, what do you see, what do you see?
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And that s what I would ask, what do you see?
1
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And they would say, well, he s showing disgust because she s in her space.
1
SPEAKER_00
What happens now when she says something funny?
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, now he doesn t mind because he lifts his cheek.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so my daughter, Emma, was four when I was describing all these different points on the face for joy.
1
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And she said, mama, you just have to look at the skin right there.
1
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If it s fat, they re happy.
1
SPEAKER_00
And that was sort of the beginning of pulling this one piece that was specific for each emotion, which is what I did.
1
SPEAKER_01
How many people innately know this?
1
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Because you hear a lot of people talk about trust your gut, trust your intuition.
1
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But why do so many of us go against our intuition or our gut?
1
SPEAKER_00
Because we re not taught to believe it.
1
SPEAKER_00
So we are not taught the science.
1
SPEAKER_00
So the Museum of Science in Boston has been one of my clients.
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It s all scientific.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s all biology.
1
SPEAKER_00
So that s the difference, really, between the body language and the facial expressions.
1
SPEAKER_00
I can tell exactly what you re feeling at any moment.
1
SPEAKER_00
I can t tell why.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don t know what you re thinking.
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SPEAKER_00
I m not a mind reader.
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SPEAKER_00
I m just a feelings reader.
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SPEAKER_00
But it s clear as day.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I should have asked you before I said, like, am I allowed to use technical terms?
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, of course.
1
SPEAKER_00
OK, so if a man has an erection, he s aroused.
1
SPEAKER_00
Period.
1
SPEAKER_00
If I see a naked man in front of me with an erection, he s aroused.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I don t know if he s thinking of me.
1
SPEAKER_00
He could be thinking about the guy next door.
1
SPEAKER_00
He could be thinking about, you know, the beautiful model that he saw earlier in the day.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don t know.
1
SPEAKER_00
But clear as day, I know which emotion he s feeling.
1
SPEAKER_00
He s not feeling sad.
1
SPEAKER_00
He s not feeling angry.
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He s not feeling nervous.
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He s feeling aroused.
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Facial expressions are as universal as that.
1
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It s a change in blood flow and muscle movement in response to an emotion.
1
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And it s clear as day.
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It is universal.
1
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And it is our species, our human species.
1
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It has nothing to do with anything else.
1
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Whether you re young or old, you make the same facial expressions.
1
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In our faces, arousal is a dilation of the pupils.
1
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Our pupils go ding and swell.
1
SPEAKER_00
And that s, interestingly enough, that s arousal for money, that s arousal for greed, that s arousal for romance.
1
SPEAKER_00
So it just basically, a swell of the pupils, a dilation of the pupils is, I want, I want, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, now.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s desire.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s desire.
1
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Power, fame, success, money, all these different things.
1
SPEAKER_00
So if you re in a negotiation and you see the other person, you re introducing your deal and you re pitching, and I can make your pupils swell,
1
SPEAKER_00
I had a meeting once, and I leaned forward, and I said, you re a good leader.
1
SPEAKER_00
I can make you a great leader.
1
SPEAKER_00
And the guys  tables went ding, and I tripled my price.
1
SPEAKER_01
You re smart.
1
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, to be fair, I was a woman in Asia, and I was charging way too little money for my services.
1
SPEAKER_00
So there you go.
1
SPEAKER_01
Wow, that s crazy.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s fascinating.
1
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Just the little cues that you could pick up on can help you make better decisions.
1
SPEAKER_00
better decisions and safer decisions for your money, for your business, for your love life, for your friends.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so when I work, for example, with every once in a while I ll go in and work with a family that maybe has kidnapping risks for their kids, that lives a very high profile life, and they want to be able to make sure that their kids know and have words to sound the alarm when somebody s acting in a dangerous way.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so equally important, usually I m brought in because they think Annie s going to train them to recognize predatory behavior.
1
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But if you re in the public eye, it s just as important to understand who loves you and who wishes you well.
1
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Because if we re raising kids to be fearful and weary of everybody, we re doing them a great disservice because as you and I both know,
1
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the meaning in life is finding people that we connect to and that we can love well and who love us well.
1
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Right.
1
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Absolutely.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so the understanding intent has those two pieces of people that really don t wish me well at all or who want to use me or abuse me or hurt me.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then I want to know who doesn t care about my money or my fame or anything else.
1
SPEAKER_00
They just want me to be okay and they just want to love me.
1
SPEAKER_01
How do you know the difference between someone who wants to use you or take advantage of you in life versus someone that wants the best for you?
1
SPEAKER_00
The facial expressions are going to tell you every time.
1
SPEAKER_00
So exactly like what I was talking about earlier when if you had met me and you had said,
1
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so great to meet you and you re growling.
1
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No, you re not happy to meet me.
1
SPEAKER_00
Or you re saying, oh, I heard you got a promotion at work and you re doing the bunny rabbit twitch right here.
1
SPEAKER_00
You don t like that at all, no matter what your words are saying.
1
SPEAKER_00
But if you say, I m so proud of you and your cheeks pop up and you get these smile bags and I m going, oh.
1
SPEAKER_00
I said something really vulnerable when we just met, you know, we talked for what, five or 10 minutes before we started this interview.
1
SPEAKER_00
And as soon as I said something about something that was hard, you puckered your, and you just do that intuitively.
1
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That s empathy.
1
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That s kindness.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s, I feel your pain.
1
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I care about that.
1
SPEAKER_00
I worry about that.
1
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I want you to be okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so when we see that empathy, that person s really feeling our feelings with
1
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And we do, you talked about mirroring earlier, and we do, we mirror other people s expressions all day long, especially when we re connected with them.
1
SPEAKER_00
So back to that question that you asked, how do you tell, or can you change your facial expressions?
1
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I can change my facial expressions by changing the ideas in my head.
1
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So I had to fire a board member once.
1
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done these egregious things and we decided as a board that we needed to do it as a group because this person was going to try to go out to constituents and try to destabilize the whole organization.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so we sat down and they said, Annie will do it.
1
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Annie is not afraid of conflict.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I started reading this list and I said, we need you to understand that this is unanimous and we are firing you from your position and here is why.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I was growling at him, as I was saying.
1
SPEAKER_00
You were?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes, because I was saying these horrible things that he did.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I was disgusted at them.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I was disgusted.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then I m thinking, because I know that I ve got all these people that I have to get along with, and they re watching me growl like a dog.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I needed to change my own expressions.
1
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And I can t create those full parallel lines of thought, but I could feel myself just getting more and more worked up.
1
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So I just repeated in my head, loving kindness, loving kindness, loving kindness.
1
SPEAKER_01
While you re saying these things you don t agree with, wow.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and I got pulled aside afterwards from a friend that I d been training, and she said, you re halfway through.
1
SPEAKER_00
You switched.
1
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You switched, and I said, oh yeah, here s what I did.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s the only way I know how to do it.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s kind of like thinking, okay, I m not enjoying this, or maybe I m having a difficult conversation with this person that naturally my facial expression would snarl or growl or whatever.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
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But I m going to intentionally have as much compassion for this person as well.
1
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I don t agree with it.
1
SPEAKER_01
I don t like it.
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Maybe they wronged me or hurt me.
1
SPEAKER_01
Right.
1
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But how can I also see the humanity in the person and I guess wish the best for them in the future?
1
SPEAKER_01
You know, it doesn t mean you have to...
1
SPEAKER_00
Most of the people, I mean, we just had a conversation about, you know, the people that wish you ill and the people that wish you well, but most of the people are kind of in the middle.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, of course.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, they re just kind of struggling along, which is exactly what you re saying, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
They may not be the best person for you to have close in your life.
1
SPEAKER_00
Maybe you don t want to work with them.
1
SPEAKER_00
Maybe you don t want to be friends with them.
1
SPEAKER_00
But they re not inherently evil.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
They re just somebody that you re saying, hey, this doesn t work for me.
1
SPEAKER_00
And yes, that s how I cheat the system of my microexpressions, is by loving kindness, loving kindness, loving kindness.
1
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Compassion, yeah.
1
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Just trying to find that empathy, because most people are struggling.
1
SPEAKER_01
There s a Swedish movie remake that s an American movie now, I guess, Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.
1
SPEAKER_01
I don t know if you ve seen this movie.
1
SPEAKER_01
Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.
1
SPEAKER_00
I have, and it s too scary for me.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think there s some, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
The English remake of it.
1
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there s a scene towards the end that essentially the psychopath murderer who locks people up in the basement and kills people or whatever, tortures them or whatever.
1
SPEAKER_01
The main character goes to the house and, because he s kind of suspicious about him, he s like, huh, I think he s not a good person.
1
SPEAKER_01
But he s in a position of power, he s part of this family business, and he s going up to the house to kind of like check on his intuition.
1
SPEAKER_01
And to snoop around.
1
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And then all of a sudden, no one s there but the bad guy.
1
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Tom drives back in and enters the house, and he kind of gets caught.
1
SPEAKER_01
And he s outside walking around, and the guy s like, oh, why don t you come on in?
1
SPEAKER_01
But intuitively, he knew like something s off.
1
SPEAKER_01
But he goes in anyways to be courteous, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
He s like, okay, like social courtesy.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay, I m gonna go in and just have a conversation so it doesn t look like I m suspicious.
1
SPEAKER_01
Eventually he, you know, drugs him or catches him, he s in the basement, tying him up, and he s having this conversation with him.
1
SPEAKER_01
The bad guy s having the conversation with the other guy.
1
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And he s saying something like, isn t it interesting that our intuition knows, but we still follow, we still have that conversation with someone, even when we know emotionally we should run away.
1
SPEAKER_01
But a lot of us do this in intimacy or relationships.
1
SPEAKER_01
I feel like I ve done this in the past.
1
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Where we know we shouldn t be in this relationship.
1
SPEAKER_01
We should get out.
1
SPEAKER_01
Or we start dating someone and we know like, oh, there s some red flags or some signs that things aren t matching, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
How can we tell either the signs or the flags when we re dating someone that we should really take this a lot slower?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Can you feel it?
1
SPEAKER_00
You re doing like, you re doing this.
1
SPEAKER_01
Triangle, the triangle.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right.
1
SPEAKER_00
Clenching.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s the fear.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s the, Oh crap.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because you, cause you know what that feels like.
1
SPEAKER_00
And you.
1
SPEAKER_01
So is that more our reaction to someone or watching their facial expression do that?
1
SPEAKER_01
Like if we re.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you re doing it right now as you re thinking about something that s worrying, that s concerning, and you re like, and then that was the discomfort, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
You re like, yeah, I remember what that felt like.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s uncomfortable.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s not safe.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so your face is live narrating your words, and it s matching perfectly, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
So your words and your facial expressions match perfectly.
1
SPEAKER_01
But if someone s going out on a date or they re dating someone or they re in a relationship and they re like, huh, how do they really know the difference between a potential narcissist or a sociopath or someone who s out of alignment versus someone that could be a healthy, conscious relationship with them?
1
SPEAKER_00
So first of all, it s a great question.
1
SPEAKER_00
And we know in our gut.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I always point to my solar plexus because that s where I feel it.
1
SPEAKER_00
I always feel like this little almost sting right there.
1
SPEAKER_00
We know in our gut, and the problem for so many of us, especially those of us who ve experienced trauma in our childhoods, is that our pain was intentionally or sometimes not intentionally dismissed.
1
SPEAKER_00
And we have been taught that our emotions aren t real and we can control everything.
1
SPEAKER_00
And really we have this great security system in our bodies that does exactly what you re talking about, that tells us danger, danger, alert, alert.
1
SPEAKER_00
And what I am trying to do is get this information out into the public.
1
SPEAKER_00
so that people who are young are able to make safe and healthy decisions about who to align with romantically, professionally, and even when it comes to friendships.
1
SPEAKER_00
So if you and I are going on a date, and say you re somebody who really doesn t wish me well, I can- Or I m trying to get something out of you, I don t have good intentions.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right, you don t care about my feelings, you don t care about my emotions, maybe you re attracted to me, but we re looking for attraction and emotional attachment, most of us.
1
SPEAKER_00
Most of us who want a real relationship, we want those two things.
1
SPEAKER_00
We want the person to be attracted to us, and we want the person to be emotionally attached to us.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, or emotionally committed, or yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, something, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
To care about our feelings at the very deepest of levels.
1
SPEAKER_01
But how do you know?
1
SPEAKER_01
Because there s probably some either women or men who are going on dates that can act like they care, but they really just want the money, or they really just want the sex, or they really just want to use them in some way for their benefit.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right, so they re saying the right words, and generally for most of us, and it varies from person to person, but most of us feel something in our gut.
1
SPEAKER_00
Now, what I m teaching is the facial expression so that you can see and test and get that instant feedback.
1
SPEAKER_00
before you re emotionally attached because most of us six months down the line will say about all that creepy boss or the the relationship where it turns out you know she just wanted me for my money or he just wanted me for sex or vice versa right that that we know it but if we can see the science in it immediately we re unlikely to attach ourselves we we see the red so what that does is it strengthens their their gut so for my children for example
1
SPEAKER_00
If they said to somebody, hey, do you want to come over?
1
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And that person did that no expression, they knew the person didn t want to come, but they didn t know why.
1
SPEAKER_00
Or again, if they re saying something nice and complimentary, but showing the no face, they don t believe it.
1
SPEAKER_00
They re not believing their body is saying, no, no, no, no, I don t actually believe this.
1
SPEAKER_00
With romance and emotional attachment in particular, we re looking for that kindness in the chin that you show so often.
1
SPEAKER_00
The chin?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
The chin is a good indicator.
1
SPEAKER_00
Our achy, breaky heart is on our chin.
1
SPEAKER_01
Really?
1
SPEAKER_00
So if I tell you something that s emotionally, physically, or financially painful for me in general,
1
SPEAKER_00
And just me saying that right now, you re like, oh, that s a lot, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
She s going to be watching me to see how I respond, which is totally normal, too.
1
SPEAKER_00
That fits.
1
SPEAKER_00
But if I were talking to you about a child with a learning disability or a family member that was going through health problems or something, your little chin is working the whole time because you re hard at it.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m connected to it.
1
SPEAKER_00
You re connected.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so if we re in a relationship or starting a relationship with somebody, we re starting to show our own vulnerability, they should be mirroring that vulnerability in the chin.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s the chin.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s not as much the eyes, it s more the chin.
1
SPEAKER_00
No, that s all of our vulnerability.
1
SPEAKER_00
So vulnerability is a piece of sadness, it s a piece of empathy, and it s a piece of love.
1
SPEAKER_01
Right, wow.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s beautiful.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it is.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s right in my chin.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I describe it in my book, our chin is usually like a smooth grape.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then when we pucker it, we turn that grape into a raisin.
1
SPEAKER_01
Right, you can see a bunch of dimples in there, I guess, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Wow, that s a good sign.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s a good sign.
1
SPEAKER_01
And you can t really fake that, can you?
1
SPEAKER_00
No.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s hard to, I guess, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, nobody knows now.
1
SPEAKER_00
We ll see if the people all over the world start faking it.
1
SPEAKER_01
Unless you re a trained sociopath, I guess, and you re just trying to do that.
1
SPEAKER_00
The sociopaths never show it.
1
SPEAKER_00
They never pucker.
1
SPEAKER_01
They never do.
1
SPEAKER_00
They almost never do.
1
SPEAKER_00
They don t show that compassion, because they don t have it.
1
SPEAKER_00
They don t have it unless it s related to themselves getting hurt.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then they show it, because their compassion towards their own feelings.
1
SPEAKER_01
How can you know if someone has narcissistic tendencies if you re going on a date, or if you ve been in a relationship with them for a long time?
1
SPEAKER_00
Because they don t show me any kindness.
1
SPEAKER_01
They don t show kindness.
1
SPEAKER_00
They don t care when I get hurt.
1
SPEAKER_00
Regardless of how I get hurt, or regardless of how somebody else gets hurt, they don t show that.
1
SPEAKER_01
Really?
1
SPEAKER_00
They don t.
1
SPEAKER_00
No.
1
SPEAKER_01
They care more about themselves, or they just don t care?
1
SPEAKER_00
But I know narcissists that will describe something that they ve been through that s painful, and their chin will be working overtime.
1
SPEAKER_01
But for someone else, they probably won t have that.
1
SPEAKER_00
No, because they don t care.
1
SPEAKER_01
But how are they so good, I guess, at captivating you to love them?
1
SPEAKER_00
One, they tend to over the, well, a narcissist in my life, tend to overdo the eye contact.
1
SPEAKER_01
So they re very present and connected?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
The gaze is long.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then the other thing is that they ve learned almost mathematically which phrases, which behaviors work.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I had somebody in my life, I won t mention who it is, but it s a family member of mine that I just lost it on him.
1
SPEAKER_00
We were living in Hong Kong, and he was yelling at a taxi driver.
1
SPEAKER_00
And we got out of the car, and the taxi driver had made a wrong turn.
1
SPEAKER_00
Even though the person that I was with had said, turn to the right, he made a mistake.
1
SPEAKER_00
And he just lost it on this taxi driver.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was really angry afterwards.
1
SPEAKER_00
I said, do you understand that this is somebody who s trying to support his family, working really long hours, like this is a decent human making an honorable living, working hard, and probably has a lot of people depending on them.
1
SPEAKER_00
And you don t get to yell at somebody for making a mistake.
1
SPEAKER_00
We all make mistakes.
1
SPEAKER_00
Next night we were out and this person was trying to pick up girls.
1
SPEAKER_00
Puffed out his chest and said, I m the kind of guy who s nice to taxi drivers.
1
SPEAKER_01
No.
1
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
1
SPEAKER_01
The next day?
1
SPEAKER_01
Jeez.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was like, this is the weirdest, most surreal experience.
1
SPEAKER_00
But it really clicked for me, this narcissistic behavior.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I knew that this was a narcissist.
1
SPEAKER_00
This idea of, oh, there s a puzzle piece and a tool that I can use to impress other people.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it was just so...
1
SPEAKER_00
artificial and strange, but people find a way to get their needs met.
1
SPEAKER_00
We humans tend to be really good at that.
1
SPEAKER_00
And if something works for us, well, we repeat that.
1
SPEAKER_00
We do more of that.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, we kind of store that in our brain.
1
SPEAKER_01
This worked before, so let me keep doing this thing.
1
SPEAKER_00
That whole love bombing and the whole, like, I will tell you, and the narcissists that have ever tried to date me, I call them parrots.
1
SPEAKER_00
They try to figure out what is your thing.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I had a guy not that long ago, I ve actually written about it, that was telling me, you know, I ve been upset.
1
SPEAKER_00
with microaggressions for years because if you can t really connect with people I mean he d seen me speak a couple of times and he was just pulling all this stuff and I was lonely and newly divorced and I almost fell for it you know even with my stuff because he was so good at the speaking to your heart into like
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, and he wasn t doing it face-to-face.
2
SPEAKER_01
He was doing it via text.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I kept saying, well, let s just jump on a phone call.
2
SPEAKER_01
No, no, no, didn t want to even jump on the phone call, because he knows that I can do more stuff.
2
SPEAKER_02
Wow.
2
SPEAKER_02
No, FaceTime, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
FaceTime, you d be like, eh.
2
SPEAKER_00
Didn t want to do the FaceTime.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
So can you personally tell the difference between someone who s maybe a psychopath, a narcissist, and a genius?
2
SPEAKER_02
Can you tell the difference based on, and are there tendencies of all three, I guess?
2
SPEAKER_01
That s a really good question.
2
SPEAKER_01
You can be a genius and also be cunt, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
That doesn t necessarily, you can be a narcissist and a genius for sure.
2
SPEAKER_01
But the genius isn t necessarily overlapping the other ones.
2
SPEAKER_01
There are a couple pieces that I look for.
2
SPEAKER_01
I look for what my kids call crazy eyes.
2
SPEAKER_01
So remember I talked about we pull our upper eyelids way back?
2
SPEAKER_01
You know, we do this, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
So that s a piece of fear.
2
SPEAKER_01
So if you, if I walk into a room and I see somebody, you know, maybe standing with a gun behind you or like pulling out a knife, and my upper eyelids are gonna,
2
SPEAKER_01
going to pull way back, that fits.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right?
2
SPEAKER_01
If I m in a scary situation, something scares me, or somebody jumps out, or there s a loud noise, I m going to pull my upper eyelids back.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that matches.
2
SPEAKER_01
They re like crazy eyes.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
OK, but that matches.
2
SPEAKER_01
But we don t ever, in fear, the only time we will pull our upper eyelids back and hold them, roller coaster haunted house, you know, terror.
2
SPEAKER_02
Loud noise.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right.
2
SPEAKER_01
We never hold our upper eyelids pulled way back, except when we re nuts.
2
SPEAKER_02
When you re a psychopath.
2
SPEAKER_02
You just like that all the time.
2
SPEAKER_01
Ted Bundy.
2
SPEAKER_01
Hitler.
2
SPEAKER_02
Really?
2
SPEAKER_01
I m gonna get in so much trouble for this.
2
SPEAKER_01
Elizabeth Holmes.
2
SPEAKER_02
Oh, wow.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, seeing your face immediately goes like, there s a lot of people in the public eye, the school shooters, if you look at the pictures of them.
2
SPEAKER_01
They have their eyes like that a lot.
2
SPEAKER_01
They re showing their sclera.
2
SPEAKER_01
And there s something about mental instability and volatility, and I m not safe, that I don t know what it is.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I ve done a lot of research, just my own private research on that.
2
SPEAKER_01
But I almost always find that somebody who s committed a heinous crime,
2
SPEAKER_01
in a really violent crime, they re almost always like, I don t know, 20, 30% of their pictures that you can find up online, where they re holding that.
2
SPEAKER_02
Really, that s interesting.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so watch the facial expression of fear, the full facial expression of fear, and it makes me shiver.
2
SPEAKER_01
Watch when I take the bottom half of my face and turn it into joy or arousal or cheerfulness.
2
SPEAKER_02
That is weird.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s super creepy and it like sends all these itchy signals to my brain.
2
SPEAKER_01
But it s out of context.
2
SPEAKER_01
It doesn t match.
2
SPEAKER_01
And your whole body, your whole nervous system knows that when you see it.
2
SPEAKER_01
When I give you the vocabulary to pull this and dissect it, you re going, oh my God, I just talked about this thing and that person showed crazy eyes, almost like they were, there s horror and arousal at the same, that s the Joker s face from Batman, the arousal in the horror, the joy in the horror, that s terrible.
2
SPEAKER_02
The joy in the horror.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right.
2
SPEAKER_02
That s something to watch out for.
2
SPEAKER_01
That is something to watch out for.
2
SPEAKER_02
Now, are people, I guess they re psychopaths, are they more like that all the time or is that only sometimes?
2
SPEAKER_01
She seemed to show it a lot.
2
SPEAKER_02
Right, right.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I don t really, it s almost like I m not all the way to the finish line with that research.
2
SPEAKER_02
I just know- Something seems inauthentic though.
2
SPEAKER_01
Something s inauthentic.
2
SPEAKER_01
And you can have somebody who is not a bad person, but who is going through a period of severe trauma and mental instability also have that sort of constant deer-in-the-headlight look.
2
SPEAKER_01
So you have to be careful.
2
SPEAKER_01
All of these facial expressions, you have to put them in context.
2
SPEAKER_02
You need context.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it s not like, you see this in somebody, they re automatically a bad or a dangerous person.
2
SPEAKER_01
But they are more likely, in my experience,
2
SPEAKER_01
be violent against others or themselves.
2
SPEAKER_01
You sometimes see that facial expression before somebody takes their own life.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
Wow.
2
SPEAKER_01
So there s something, there s some serious emotional health issue.
2
SPEAKER_02
With a psychopath, essentially, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
And what s the difference between spotting, I guess, a narcissist and a genius?
2
SPEAKER_02
and a genius who s actually kind and has good intentions versus a narcissist who is only out for them?
2
SPEAKER_01
So that s a really good question and I m sort of hesitant because I haven t really thought about it enough.
2
SPEAKER_01
Again, with somebody that doesn t have empathy, that s a problem.
2
SPEAKER_01
Now, I work with a lot of people on the spectrum, a lot of people with autism, and there s this- They may not express themselves with empathy as much.
2
SPEAKER_01
There s this really misunderstood piece.
2
SPEAKER_01
I have people in my life who have autism and have beautiful empathy.
2
SPEAKER_01
And the idea that you don t have empathy, that s crazy.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s all empathy.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, and it s a tendency to be overloaded with information.
2
SPEAKER_01
The eye contact becomes overstimulated.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I want to be careful because I m not an expert, but from my own experience,
2
SPEAKER_01
they may not recognize the facial expressions.
2
SPEAKER_01
They may not have what I call situational empathy, which is also in psychology, they call it theory of mind, which is the ability to understand if this person s in this situation, here s how they would feel.
2
SPEAKER_01
But if you have a conversation on a deeper level and you say, this is how I feel and this is why the people in my life with autism have immense amounts of empathy and kindness and okay, well then how can I help?
2
SPEAKER_01
And I work a lot with kids or have worked in the past.
2
SPEAKER_01
I don t do it as much right now.
2
SPEAKER_01
And my autistic clients are my best clients.
2
SPEAKER_00
Really?
2
SPEAKER_01
They are the ones, if I have an autistic client that is good at pattern recognition, and those are generally the ones that I would take on as clients because those are the ones that I can be most helpful to.
2
SPEAKER_01
They don t do what neurotypicals do, which is this, you should be feeling this in this situation.
2
SPEAKER_01
They just look at the actual facial expression.
2
SPEAKER_01
This is what you re feeling.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I start with showing pictures and explanation, and I sometimes will have people like color in the facial expressions.
2
SPEAKER_01
Where on the face do you see this expression?
2
SPEAKER_01
And so, for example, I had an eight-year-old that I was training.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then once we get past the still pictures, we go to videos so they can see it really, because you don t really know microexpressions until you can see it live.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I would always train the parents at the same time.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I d show a video clip, freeze it, and the parents would say, well, this person s feeling this emotion.
2
SPEAKER_01
And the child would say, nope, it s this expression.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I would say, the child s right.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, wow.
2
SPEAKER_01
Because the parents were so into, well, but in this context, they should be feeling this.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that would influence their interpretation.
2
SPEAKER_02
Interesting.
2
SPEAKER_02
Just because you should be doesn t mean you are feeling something.
2
SPEAKER_02
Right.
2
SPEAKER_01
And my autistic clients tend to be really, really good at that.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s all pattern recognition.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so they d say, but you know, she s feeling joy because the smile bags are here.
2
SPEAKER_01
She s feeling the no face disgust because there s nasal shadows.
2
SPEAKER_01
Or you ve got the rectangle of fear, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
No, they re feeling empathy or vulnerability because the chins are raised.
2
SPEAKER_01
Easy peasy.
2
SPEAKER_02
If you re looking for a business partner or you re looking to hire someone for an opportunity or a job or a contract, and you want to set yourself up for the best chance of success with the partnership,
2
SPEAKER_02
What are a few questions you could ask someone?
2
SPEAKER_02
to see their responses and see if it ll at least align with, okay, I m setting myself up for success.
2
SPEAKER_02
Maybe this person won t work out in this career or this job or this business partnership, but I have good enough information where I feel like they re not gonna try to screw me over.
2
SPEAKER_02
And they want the best in this relationship as well.
2
SPEAKER_02
What s a question or two you could ask to evoke a facial expression to see whether or not, okay, we re in alignment.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right.
2
SPEAKER_01
So obviously stay away from in generally yes or no questions.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes or no questions can be used to follow up.
2
SPEAKER_02
So you could say it but then follow up with something.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right.
2
SPEAKER_01
But I would generally ask open ended questions and I would ask things like do you know tell me a little bit about why you want this role.
2
SPEAKER_01
or why you wanna work with me, why you wanna work with this business, and then watch to see that this person is, one, I mean, they have to give interesting answers, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
The answer itself needs to be something that is motivating for me or feels like this person s a good fit, like they have the skills and they have the desire, but I am watching if they match.
2
SPEAKER_02
If facial expressions match the words.
2
SPEAKER_02
A lot of people can say all the exciting things of why they wanna be a partner or work at the job or whatever it might be,
2
SPEAKER_02
their face isn t matching the words, then you can tell something s off.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
So this is suppression.
2
SPEAKER_01
We make that bubble.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s almost like, you know, that the chewing, the people who do the chewing tobacco.
2
SPEAKER_01
So sometimes they take it out.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right.
2
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
2
SPEAKER_01
They stuff it in the bottom.
2
SPEAKER_01
So sometimes they put it up top, but, uh, but it s almost a Nordic country boy, like chewing tobacco thing.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it s not even a micro-expression, but it s this, it takes so many muscles to make that.
2
SPEAKER_01
Barack Obama, king of suppression, makes that face all the time.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s I m holding back.
2
SPEAKER_01
Doesn t he?
2
SPEAKER_02
What s he hold back on, you think?
2
SPEAKER_02
How he truly feels?
2
SPEAKER_01
How he truly feels, or this is, you know, this information is not gonna help, or this is not gonna be received well.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, you can imagine, self-control s a good quality in a leader.
2
SPEAKER_02
Right, but he s saying, you know there s something he s not happy with.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right, he s got, he wants to say, it s the grown-up version of this.
2
SPEAKER_02
He wants to say something.
2
SPEAKER_01
He s biting our tongue.
2
SPEAKER_02
But he s being mindful that, okay, I might hurt myself if I say our truth.
2
SPEAKER_02
Right.
2
SPEAKER_01
Also could be simply if we re in a meeting and the meeting s going over and some subject is brought up and I m like, oh, I have so many thoughts about this, but I m not right now.
2
SPEAKER_01
So it s just you re itching to say it.
2
SPEAKER_01
So that holding back is such a useful thing to see in board meetings, in any conversation.
2
SPEAKER_01
So if I see somebody holding back on what they really feel, that would be a warning for me in a one-to-one interview.
2
SPEAKER_01
If we re in a big group setting, I would pull that person aside afterwards because likely they re not saying it because it s not something they want to say out loud in front of those specific people who are in a group setting.
2
SPEAKER_01
But the person will almost always spill.
2
SPEAKER_02
So it s just information telling you, hey, there s something underneath this expression.
2
SPEAKER_02
Let s ask more.
2
SPEAKER_01
Let s ask more.
2
SPEAKER_01
But I would just generally that the more you know about microexpressions, the more it gives you the underlying emotion of what s going on.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I think as humans, we like to even tell ourselves that I m not letting my emotions steer.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m making rational decisions.
2
SPEAKER_01
But how many business decisions are made on, I want this?
2
SPEAKER_01
OK, and it makes sense because A, B, C, and D. Sure.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Sure.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m going to justify hiring this person because I really want to.
2
SPEAKER_01
But the microexpressions will give us that additional layer of seeing the red flag and getting the science to the red flag.
2
SPEAKER_01
It makes it much safer because if we see the red flag and we can dissect why we see the red flag, we re going, I m not going to invest in this relationship.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m going to stop myself before I get emotionally or financially attached.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and before there s some bigger commitment or something.
2
SPEAKER_02
This is fascinating.
2
SPEAKER_02
So how long have you been doing this work and coaching and consulting with Fortune 500 executives and leaders?
2
SPEAKER_01
Since I was 28 and started.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, no, actually since.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like five years in, or?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, right.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s where you do this little teasing with your nose, which is the no face, but also like the tricky business.
2
SPEAKER_01
So the wrinkle is the tricky business.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s your mischief.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s cute.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s about five years.
2
SPEAKER_01
So no, I started off with investment banking in Hong Kong, and then I did management consulting in Sweden.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then when we moved, I got married, moved to Singapore.
2
SPEAKER_01
I lived in a lot of other places, too, across Europe and China.
2
SPEAKER_02
Many years you ve been doing this.
2
SPEAKER_01
Many, many years.
2
SPEAKER_01
I really started when I was in Sweden.
2
SPEAKER_01
I was the only person in the company, in the management, that had English as my mother tongue.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so I found I could hustle and wheel and deal.
2
SPEAKER_01
You were generally trained in one thing, like you were trained in strategy, or back in the day we called strategic IT, or communications, or change management, or marketing.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I wanted to do everything, because I ve got a brain similar to yours, which is like, what can I learn from this?
2
SPEAKER_01
What can I learn from this?
2
SPEAKER_01
What can you teach me?
2
SPEAKER_01
What about you?
2
SPEAKER_01
What can you teach me?
2
SPEAKER_01
What can I offer you in exchange?
2
SPEAKER_01
I like that reciprocity.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I started going around door to door in this 150 person consultancy saying, can I be in your project?
2
SPEAKER_01
You ve got a really good thing.
2
SPEAKER_01
Back in the day before it was Sony Ericsson and it was only Ericsson or it was, you know, Volvo.
2
SPEAKER_01
We worked with Volvo.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I would say, if you let me in on your project, I ll write all your deliverables in English.
2
SPEAKER_01
Will you speak them too?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes, I will present for you.
2
SPEAKER_01
Because it was at that stage where all the Swedish companies were merging with other companies.
2
SPEAKER_01
And they were going over to English being the corporate language.
2
SPEAKER_01
And the people that were 10, 20 years older than me at the time
2
SPEAKER_01
weren t particularly comfortable.
2
SPEAKER_01
They spoke English, but it was awkward, and they didn t want to do all the spelling mistakes and all that.
2
SPEAKER_01
Gotcha.
2
SPEAKER_02
So you ve been doing it for a while, then?
2
SPEAKER_01
I ve been doing it for a long time.
2
SPEAKER_02
What is the main thing that extremely powerful leaders want to learn from you?
2
SPEAKER_02
What is it that they re really trying to get, and what questions do they ask you to develop more tools?
2
SPEAKER_02
You don t have to say their names.
2
SPEAKER_00
You can see my suppression and my mischief, where I m like, how honest am I going to be?
2
SPEAKER_02
Because they hire you because they want, it sounds like, to have more power, to have more influence, to have more leadership abilities.
2
SPEAKER_01
They hire me with the idea that I will help them see under the surface.
2
SPEAKER_01
So give them more success.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes, and protection.
2
SPEAKER_02
Protection, success, growth.
2
SPEAKER_01
What really happens is that because, you know, think about it, like you hire me and they bring me and usually it s just straight on reputation.
2
SPEAKER_01
Somebody from their young president s organization or Tiger 21 or some organization that they re a member in or some friend has said she can change lives.
2
SPEAKER_01
and they bring me in not really knowing what to expect and feeling really uncomfortable because you get to... Because you re reading them.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right, I m reading them.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, you get to the top of the pyramid and part of getting to the top of the pyramid is faking it till you make it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Nobody s good at everything.
2
SPEAKER_01
So they ve gotten really good at presenting this polished, poised, like, yes, yes, yes.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then figuring it out behind the scenes.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like, I know all about that.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then, gosh, where s my Google, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
And so bringing somebody in who can see everything, it s like being naked.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know, it s like, I don t want people to see me naked, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
You re vulnerable.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so the initial piece is almost always this, oh,
2
SPEAKER_01
Like, this is really, and I will often, if it s somebody that s powerful that I think can take it, I will live narrate their face.
2
SPEAKER_01
And they ll say, well, how much do you really see?
2
SPEAKER_01
And I say, well, you just showed fear, and then you just swallowed because I made you feel uncomfortable and vulnerable.
2
SPEAKER_01
And now you re wrinkling your nose and a little bit of discomfort, and now you really realize I m reading you.
2
SPEAKER_01
So you re pulling your upper eyelids back in fear, but your cheeks are, your inforbital triangles are rising because you re like, this is the best thing ever.
2
SPEAKER_01
And they re like, holy crap.
2
SPEAKER_01
You can see into my soul and I go, yeah, but you know, it s fine.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s the same as everybody else.
2
SPEAKER_01
We re all the same.
2
SPEAKER_02
So they want to feel like protected and safe.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like, okay, I want to make sure that my business or my organization is being taken care of.
2
SPEAKER_02
Do you feel like they care more about that or they care more about influence power and making more money?
2
SPEAKER_01
It s both.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, the number of times I will be on the stage doing a keynote and I ll get pulled aside as soon as I go off, you know, I need to talk to you in private.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it depends on the kind of business.
2
SPEAKER_01
If it s a family business, if it s a family office, it can be something like, I don t trust my partner, my cousin, my whatever.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think there s something off.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I can see the facial expressions.
2
SPEAKER_01
I know this person does that.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think they re stealing money.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think they re doing this.
2
SPEAKER_01
It can be any of the above.
2
SPEAKER_01
They don t generally know exactly what they need from me.
2
SPEAKER_02
They don t know what they want.
2
SPEAKER_01
They don t know what they want.
2
SPEAKER_01
And the person recommending me is often not telling them exactly what I did for them.
2
SPEAKER_01
So it s sort of this vague kind of thing.
2
SPEAKER_01
And they pull me in.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I say, OK, so now that we ve got this established, that you re lonely, that you re struggling, that you re not good at all the things that you need to project that you re good at,
2
SPEAKER_01
what are your real problems?
2
SPEAKER_01
And they go, holy, actually, I m dealing with this.
2
SPEAKER_01
And they ll tell me the real stuff.
2
SPEAKER_01
And the reason I ve been good at the strategic advisory and the coaching is because people actually come to me with their real problems that they don t tell anybody else.
2
SPEAKER_02
they re honest with you.
2
SPEAKER_02
They have to be, I guess.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right, and most business problems are people problems.
2
SPEAKER_01
On one level or another, it could be with their board, it could be with their employees, it could be that they can t manage to connect with the people that they need to connect with.
2
SPEAKER_01
It could be that they don t trust the people that they need to trust.
2
SPEAKER_01
It could be simply that they don t have anybody to ask advice to.
2
SPEAKER_01
Because think about it, if you re the CEO, you can t go to your board and say,
2
SPEAKER_01
With this merger, I had no idea what I m doing.
2
SPEAKER_01
You can t tell your employees that you re over your skis.
2
SPEAKER_01
Your spouse is usually fed up because if you re a CEO, you re generally prioritizing work.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so they may not be an expert in your business or they may simply just not care anymore.
2
SPEAKER_01
So to have somebody who s kind of seen it all in terms of business, but also, I think they take off their armor with me and just say, this is really what I m dealing with.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay, you know, fine, let me just tell you.
2
SPEAKER_02
What would you say then are the three biggest problems of highly successful, powerful leaders?
2
SPEAKER_01
I think one of the biggest problems that I see
3
SPEAKER_02
is that when you re really powerful, everybody says yes to you, and nobody calls you out on your... And so you get deeper and deeper into being disconnected from your organization, and you don t really know what s going on.
3
SPEAKER_02
You may have some toxic employees that are absolutely poisoning the water, and you don t see it because people aren t telling you.
3
SPEAKER_02
So that s one for sure.
3
SPEAKER_02
In general, it s really, really hard to delegate well.
3
SPEAKER_02
And that in a smaller company, you can kind of manage to be juggling and holding all the balls in the air.
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And as you grow, you just can t.
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And figuring out who you can trust and getting comfortable with letting other people make mistakes.
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And then the third one would really be modeling leadership.
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I think very few people, the personalities that tend to rise in an organization are, leadership is parenting.
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It s all the same.
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And so, if you re not able to model good behavior and the behavior that you want to trickle down in the organization, that can become very problematic.
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SPEAKER_01
Interesting.
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Because the skills that got you to the top, which are kind of elbows out, don t necessarily make you a good leader when you get there.
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How many of the people that you ve worked with in the past, percentage-wise, do you feel like are great leaders or they re struggling to be a great leader?
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Like, what s the percentage?
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I mean, all humans are struggling.
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And we re good at different things.
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And I think that we need to give ourselves more grace, that it is OK.
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The best leaders I know are very vocal about the things they re not good at.
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And I do have some clients that are really
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You know, when I see them get up and talk, I feel this sense of warmth and pride because they ll say, okay, I m not good at this, but that s why I have these people.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right.
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It s interesting, you can be extremely successful in a business and not be a great leader.
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I mean, it s like Steve Jobs went through different phases where he was talked about as like this horrible leader in terms of his teams like feared him or didn t like him or he was aggressive or whatever.
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But he was able to build a massive business also.
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So it s figuring out, and then it sounds like eventually he evolved and transformed into a better human leader of connection and empathy and kindness.
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But you can still be successful and essentially a bad leader, it sounds like.
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You just might be suffering more.
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Well, the other thing is that we re just flawed humans, and we re uneven.
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I mean, you ve talked about this in your books, and I talk about it.
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I m very open with being dyslexic.
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I mean, I m really very dyslexic.
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Yeah, me too.
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And once I started learning different languages, like, all bets are off.
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All bets.
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Has it been easy to learn other language being dyslexic?
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Because for me, I ve struggled.
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And I think it s because I can t read from a book and remember.
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Well, that s why I put in pictures for you.
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That s good.
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SPEAKER_01
I have to have the pictures.
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When I have spaces and pictures, yeah.
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But I mean, especially a different language, I mean.
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Learning Spanish from a book doesn t work for me.
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So this is, I mean, I think they thought I was nuts because I was telling my editor, her name is Sarah.
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She s amazing.
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She s held my hand through this entire process.
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And she s my editor and my illustrator.
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She did the font and she did, and she s the one who has said, you know, just do the big and the hard and do it scared.
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That s beautiful.
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And jump.
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And so I, she said, I kind of thought it was nuts when you said, I want the illustrations.
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I want the doodles.
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And I said, I m dyslexic, I need to pause, and I want the dessert afterwards.
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So I want the poem, and then I want the picture that you can kind of pause.
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And I need lots of space between the lines.
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And I need different fonts so that my brain can kind of chill.
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To read it.
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Right.
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And I can follow the lines.
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And so I think that we give more credibility when we say, this is what I m good at, and this is what I suck at.
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And people go, oh.
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And this is what you do, right?
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You show your vulnerability.
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You jump.
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There s a piece that talks about, you know, you jump into the cold water first.
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Then you turn around, give them a big grin, and say, you want to come?
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Right.
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How about now?
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Yeah, it s kind of like if you admire yourself consistently by talking about all your faults or mistakes or, I guess, inadequacies, then people trust you more also.
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It s like, okay, as opposed to saying, I have it all figured out and it s saying, I m on this journey and here s my vision and here s what we re creating.
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But I still need a lot to learn on these different areas, and I still need support.
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SPEAKER_01
I feel like people will trust you more, right?
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, a lot of support, yeah.
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah, so there s this piece of, I don t know, when we re young, some of us think that if I m polished and poised and plastic and perfect, then I will be loved.
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That s not love.
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SPEAKER_01
Wow, what is that?
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No, that s just that s just a Barbie doll.
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You know, that s just nothing So if if you create this image of yourself, that s super super fancy and everybody goes.
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Oh my god.
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He s so handsome He s so smart.
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He s all these things
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But that doesn t feel authentic to you.
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And I love you for that piece.
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That love isn t satisfying on any level.
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But if you show me who you really are, and you re dorky, and sweet, and vulnerable, and smart in very interesting ways, and clueless in others, we re good, baby.
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We are good.
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And then I love you for that person.
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full and happy and adored and oh my gosh and I m so safe and I m comfortable with Annie and she sees me and she loves me and I feel love for her back and that s beautiful and that s real and that s into the soul.
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But if somebody really loves you, if I come and see you when you re lying in bed and you re sick in the hospital and your face is yellow and you have circles under your eyes and I hold your hand,
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and I love your soul, I don t care what you look like if I love you.
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That doesn t matter.
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But our connection and our trust and your ability to see me and my ability to see you, that s what real love is.
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If we re pretending to be somebody else, we never get fulfilled from love.
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That s true.
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You know, we don t love a child because they re clever and they say the right thing.
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We just love them because we love them.
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We love their sweet little souls.
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you know, they re not communicating to us perfectly, they re, you know, they re crying, they re screaming, they re joyful, they re a range of emotions, and we just love them.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
3
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We may be frustrated at times, but we love them.
3
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Well, and that s real, and the frustration is real, too, and it s in the conflict that we learn to know each other.
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There s a Swedish saying, which is, in the conflict, it s in the conflict that we learn to know each other, and I love just the way, without over-translating it,
3
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It s when we fight and we resolve and we understand, okay, you feel differently, you express yourself differently and you re showing me what you really, that s real.
3
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And we can t have a real deep connection if we re not willing to disagree and we re not willing to explain why we disagree.
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We can t learn from each other.
3
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And so I m only interested and I, you know, this idea of publishing my diary is insane.
3
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But I don t care because I don t want to be loved for anybody other than who I am.
3
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It s not real otherwise.
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Yeah, it s beautiful.
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As a human lie detector, and able to spot lies and spot the tells, if someone has no clue of how to tap into facial expression, reading facial expression, or maybe they re not gonna go through the entire book at some point, and you could give people three keys to, I guess, spotting a lie, or a liar, what would those things be?
3
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Watch for the bunny rabbit nose.
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Right?
3
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If they re saying a positive and they re doing the negative bunny, the bad bunny.
3
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That s a potential liar.
3
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That s a liar.
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That should be, I don t like this.
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That makes me angry.
3
SPEAKER_02
Okay, fine.
3
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If you re saying something negative and you re doing that, that s a problem.
3
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That should match a negative sentence.
3
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Right?
3
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So we re talking about despotting a liar.
3
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Yeah, if someone s lying to you, how can you tell?
3
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Going to body language, there s a couple things.
3
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If you re in Western society, this means yes, and this means no.
3
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So saying, I did not sleep with that lady, that s a problem.
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A no with a not now, if you go to Southeast Asia, if you go to India, there s lots of different head movements.
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Side to side.
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There s lots of side to side.
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I don t know all of them.
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I know some of them.
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But in Europe, in the US, Mexico, Canada, this is yes and this is no.
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And our bodies will leak that all the time.
3
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And my son said to me the other day, wanting to go out with some friends or the weekend.
3
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And I said, maybe.
3
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And he goes, thanks.
3
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And I said, maybe.
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And he goes, yeah, but when you say maybe and you nod, it means you re going to say yes.
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And when you say maybe and you shake your head, you re going to say no.
3
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Wow.
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So I look for that tell.
3
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That s a really, really concrete tell.
3
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OK.
3
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That s not microexpressions.
3
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It s body language, but it s pretty spot on.
3
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And it is culturally adjusted, because this doesn t mean yes in every culture.
3
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And then I would watch for the weird words in the sentence.
3
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Like what?
3
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So adding qualifiers, I had a guy who told me I m a mostly good guy.
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And I was like, dude, you are not a good guy.
3
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You couldn t even stomach saying it.
3
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He added the word mostly.
3
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And first of all, most guys won t say I m a good guy.
3
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Like, why are you trying to convince me that you re a good guy?
3
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That s weird.
3
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But if there s any extra words that just feel unnatural, so those are qualifiers.
3
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And then distancing language.
3
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I did not have relations with that woman, with somebody that you know well, or somebody who calls their wife the wife.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s a problem.
3
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That s just weird intention.
3
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With the wife as opposed to my wife.
3
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Yeah.
3
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or Cindy, or Sarah.
3
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You re disconnecting it a little bit farther than the relationship is.
3
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What we call distancing language.
3
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Interesting.
3
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Wow.
3
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So being aware of that and be like, OK, there s something underneath that.
3
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So the biggest thing that I would say is if you feel like something s off, whether or not your brain has the vocabulary and the science to tell you why your brain s speaking the truth, we know it.
3
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Do men lie differently than women?
3
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So I have friends that will lie to themselves.
3
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And I feel like a lot of the men in my life will lie to themselves.
3
SPEAKER_01
The men will lie to themselves?
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
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Like how so?
3
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I m comfortable with this.
3
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I can absolutely do this.
3
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And I m like, oh honey, do you need a hug?
3
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
3
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And what will women do?
3
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I think we re too hard on ourselves.
3
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I mean, I think women and men are both too hard on ourselves.
3
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But men manifested in just kind of plowing through and not
3
SPEAKER_02
pausing to feel the emotions, because that, as you so know, as we ve been trained, especially in the U.S., that vulnerability is weakness.
3
SPEAKER_02
And you can t, intimacy, there is no intimacy without vulnerability.
3
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It just doesn t even exist.
3
SPEAKER_02
So we have to be our true selves, and we have to feel like that s okay.
3
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And that s how we feel loved.
3
SPEAKER_02
If we re going to just show this polished and poised, we re never going to feel failed.
3
SPEAKER_02
So women tend to be too negative on themselves and
3
SPEAKER_02
put other people s needs first in a way that s self-deprecating and sometimes even to the point where it s dangerous to themselves.
3
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If we re good at loving ourselves and caring for ourselves, then our batteries are filled so we have something to offer.
3
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I m so glad you re putting this book out there and this work out there, Diary of a Human Lie Detector, Facial Expressions in Love, Lust, and Lies.
3
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Make sure you guys get a copy of this.
3
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Also, there s the facial expression glossary, which is in the back of this book, essentially, as well.
3
SPEAKER_01
We ll have both of those linked up there.
3
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This is really powerful.
3
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This gives you information and intel to understand if you are safe in relationships, or if you re in a good position at your work, if you are surrounded by good friends who are well-intended.
3
SPEAKER_01
Teaching your kids these things, these tools, are extremely powerful.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I m really grateful that you re creating this and finally revealing this to the world.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I want to acknowledge you, Annie, for your work over the last
3
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I don t know how long it s been, but a long time of doing this work and now sharing it with the masses, where it was once for just, you know, powerful people that were paying you a lot.
3
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Now you re sharing this to so many people and it s going to help a lot of people.
3
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So thank you for this work.
3
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I m very grateful for you.
3
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I have a couple of final questions for you, Annie.
3
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This one is a hypothetical question.
3
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It s called three truths.
3
SPEAKER_01
So imagine
3
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Speaking of lie detection, but imagine you get to live as long as you want in this life.
3
SPEAKER_01
Hypothetical scenario, you get to live as long as you want and create a life of your dreams from this moment moving forward.
3
SPEAKER_01
But for whatever reason, all of your work and your information, this book, this conversation and anything you create, we don t have access to after you pass, after your last day.
3
SPEAKER_01
It goes with you to wherever the next place is for you.
3
SPEAKER_01
But you get to leave behind three things you know to be true, three lessons to the world.
3
SPEAKER_01
And this is all we would have to remember you by.
3
SPEAKER_01
What would those three truths be for you?
3
SPEAKER_02
So that s really interesting because the reason I finally put this book out was that I realized I m mortal.
3
SPEAKER_02
And do I die with it?
3
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Do I die with the things that only I know?
3
SPEAKER_02
And the answer is no.
3
SPEAKER_02
This book is really a love letter to my children s friends.
3
SPEAKER_02
I ve taught my children everything that they need to know.
3
SPEAKER_02
But their friends come over and they say, Annie, Annie, teach us one thing.
3
SPEAKER_02
Teach us one thing.
3
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So this is everything.
3
SPEAKER_02
This is all the things.
3
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And so
3
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I really want people to learn the facial expressions so that they can recognize truth, so they can make safe decisions about their lives.
3
SPEAKER_02
But the really important thing is that when we understand facial expressions, we increase our ability to listen.
3
SPEAKER_02
And we really listen to each other.
3
SPEAKER_02
We can love each other well.
3
SPEAKER_02
And so one of the truths would definitely be that almost everybody is struggling.
3
SPEAKER_02
Be kind.
3
SPEAKER_02
because that little, as soon as I said struggle, you puck your little chin, because you know that s true, right?
3
SPEAKER_02
You know that you ve struggled, you know that your loved ones struggle, and all the people that you talk to are, because you show your vulnerability, they will tell you about their struggles.
3
SPEAKER_02
Be authentic and be true, because that s the only hope any of us ever really have of loving well and being loved.
3
SPEAKER_02
And then this other piece, I think neurodiversity is a beautiful thing.
3
SPEAKER_02
We humans like to think, it makes us feel comfortable and safe to think that everybody s wired the same way we are.
3
SPEAKER_02
And when we really listen to other people, we understand that we re all wired a little bit differently.
3
SPEAKER_02
Our brains are funky and nobody s good at everything.
3
SPEAKER_02
We re a little wonky as humans.
3
SPEAKER_02
And it goes back to this pretending.
3
SPEAKER_02
There s no reason to pretend that we re all good at the same things.
3
SPEAKER_02
We build teams, we build tribes, we build families on the idea that we re good at different things and we have different things to contribute.
3
SPEAKER_02
We should be grateful for that.
3
SPEAKER_02
And we should honor it in each other.
3
SPEAKER_02
And we should love each other for our differences.
3
SPEAKER_02
And that s a good thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s beautiful, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_02
Was that three?
3
SPEAKER_01
That was three, yeah, that was three.
3
SPEAKER_01
Again, the book, Diary of a Human Lie Detector.
3
SPEAKER_01
Make sure you guys grab a copy, get one for a friend.
3
SPEAKER_01
We ll have everything linked up with your website where they can connect with you, social media and all those different things.
3
SPEAKER_01
I ve got one final question though.
3
SPEAKER_01
Curious, what is your definition of greatness?
3
SPEAKER_02
To love well and to be well loved.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s it.
3
SPEAKER_01
Thanks so much, Annie, appreciate it.
3
SPEAKER_00
I hope you enjoyed today s episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness.
3
SPEAKER_00
Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today s episode with all the important links.
3
SPEAKER_00
And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel
3
SPEAKER_00
exclusively on Apple podcasts.
3
SPEAKER_00
Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple podcasts as well.
3
SPEAKER_00
Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review.
3
SPEAKER_00
I really love hearing feedback from you.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward.
3
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And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.
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And now it s time to go out there and do something great.