0
SPEAKER_04
Flightless Bird is sponsored by BetterHelp.
0
SPEAKER_04
Now, Monica, have you heard that thing where you go to bed, you re feeling great, and then the lights go out and you shut your eyes, and the thoughts begin?
0
SPEAKER_01
Rumination.
0
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, you go into the past, you go into every little intricate detail of something annoying that s happened, and suddenly you re from a good place and you re in a really annoying place.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I used to have it so bad.
0
SPEAKER_01
I do feel like since I ve been in regular therapy, I have it less because my brain knows to just file it away until I can talk about it with her.
0
SPEAKER_04
It helps you process things and it s actually something I ve learned recently is that you are allowed to stop your thoughts when they begin and you don t have to follow them down that path like you feel you should.
0
SPEAKER_01
I m very proud of you for prioritizing therapy over work.
0
SPEAKER_04
I ve never done this before in my entire life.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it should be totally normal to prioritize your mental health.
0
SPEAKER_01
You should.
0
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, I m finding that pattern good and the whole regular weekly thing.
0
SPEAKER_04
It s been really beneficial for me.
0
SPEAKER_01
Good.
0
SPEAKER_04
If you re thinking of starting therapy, you can give Better Help a try.
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It s entirely online.
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It s designed to be convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule.
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You just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist, and you can switch therapists at any time for no additional charge.
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Make your brain your friend with BetterHelp.
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Visit betterhelp.com slash bird today to get 10% off your first month.
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SPEAKER_04
That s betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash bird.
0
SPEAKER_04
Hi, I m David Farrier, a New Zealander accidentally marooned in America, and I want to find out what makes this country tick.
0
SPEAKER_04
Now, we re over 60 episodes into Flightless Bird, and there s not a day goes by that a new topic doesn t jump out at me.
0
SPEAKER_04
Things America does in such a different way to New Zealand.
0
SPEAKER_04
A different way to so many countries.
0
SPEAKER_04
But some Americanisms are so American, and so ever-present, they almost become invisible.
0
SPEAKER_04
That s a clip from Dog the Bounty Hunter.
0
SPEAKER_04
He was on Armchair Expert back in 2019, and we know him well in New Zealand because of the show.
0
SPEAKER_04
Bounty Hunters are so uniquely American I d forgotten about them, so I added them to my list of things to learn about.
0
SPEAKER_04
But while I was learning about Bounty Hunters, and that will be a future episode, I started to think about the people they tend to work for.
0
SPEAKER_04
Bail Bondsmen.
0
SPEAKER_04
This is also a profession which is so specifically American, a commercial enterprise built around the fact that many Americans can t afford bail.
0
SPEAKER_04
So, for a fee, a bail bondsman will pay your bail, and then sick dog the bounty hunter onto you if you do a runner.
0
SPEAKER_04
This profession is illegal everywhere but in America and the Philippines, so I wanted to understand how it works, if it works, and how it s going.
0
SPEAKER_04
So, prepare to offer up 10% cash or the mortgage on your house, because this is The Bail Episode.
0
SPEAKER_04
We re all here.
0
SPEAKER_01
The whole gang.
0
SPEAKER_03
The whole gang s back together.
0
SPEAKER_03
I feel like this is the perfect episode for me to have joined.
0
SPEAKER_03
I m excited about this.
0
SPEAKER_03
I ve had to pay a bail bondsman already.
0
SPEAKER_03
This is great.
0
SPEAKER_03
We re in.
0
SPEAKER_04
Either of you had that experience?
0
SPEAKER_04
No.
0
SPEAKER_04
I ve been into bail bondsman offices making this episode, but I ve never had to pay a bond.
0
SPEAKER_03
And there s a vibe in them, no?
0
SPEAKER_03
Oh, it is a vibe.
0
SPEAKER_04
I feel like, it felt like the same if you re going to like a porn store.
0
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, flashing lights at you, the guy behind the counter, because I was trying to get them to talk to me and practically no one would when I was in Oklahoma because there are a lot of bail bonds men there.
0
SPEAKER_04
And yeah, it s like you re working into a porn store and the people behind the counter look that they work in porn.
0
SPEAKER_03
Whoa, I want to be so clear.
0
SPEAKER_03
I think it feels just like a pawn shop.
0
SPEAKER_03
And the way you say porn, I thought you were saying pawn shop.
0
SPEAKER_03
I was saying porn.
0
SPEAKER_03
Pornography.
0
SPEAKER_03
Okay, sharp.
0
SPEAKER_04
Like a dodgy, like... Yeah, there s bars on the windows.
0
SPEAKER_04
But also, like a porn shop also.
0
SPEAKER_04
Right.
0
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
0
SPEAKER_01
You re saying the same word twice.
0
SPEAKER_04
Porn, porn.
0
SPEAKER_04
Which one s sexual and which one s secondary market?
0
SPEAKER_04
Porn is when you re at a secondary market.
0
SPEAKER_03
Porn.
0
SPEAKER_01
That s you trying to do your American accent.
0
SPEAKER_03
That s me trying to do my accent.
0
SPEAKER_03
I guess I see the porn comparison as well.
0
SPEAKER_03
Do we have those anymore?
0
SPEAKER_04
I feel like maybe we don t.
0
SPEAKER_04
I m just imagining something from a long time ago.
0
SPEAKER_01
Porn shops?
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_04
Dicey ones, flashing at you.
0
SPEAKER_03
On the side of the interstates.
0
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, interstate vibes.
0
SPEAKER_01
I think they have them in West Hollywood.
0
SPEAKER_01
Porn shops?
0
SPEAKER_01
I just, let me put it this way, Monica.
0
SPEAKER_03
There you go.
0
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_03
Toys make sense.
0
SPEAKER_03
But pornography as merchandise is kind of gone with the internet now.
0
SPEAKER_03
It s not like anyone s going to get their steamy magazines.
0
SPEAKER_03
This is true.
0
SPEAKER_04
And stores are more kind of high-end now and they try and kind of make them nice.
0
SPEAKER_04
It s not just like horrific VHSs.
0
SPEAKER_01
Another industry AI is removed.
0
SPEAKER_01
The mom and pop porn shop.
0
SPEAKER_03
But wait, rewind.
0
SPEAKER_03
You paid.
0
SPEAKER_03
Yes, I have a few times.
0
SPEAKER_03
So I ll give you one example.
0
SPEAKER_03
We have a show at the Groundlings Sunday night.
0
SPEAKER_03
We always go out for drinks afterwards, go to the snake pit.
0
SPEAKER_03
I get home.
0
SPEAKER_03
This is at the height of my Vicodin addiction in like 2003.
0
SPEAKER_03
How old were you, Bullpack?
0
SPEAKER_03
Three, so I d have been 28.
0
SPEAKER_03
Okay.
0
SPEAKER_03
Okay.
0
SPEAKER_03
And I m not gonna say the friend, but a friend calls me at 1.30 a.m.
0
SPEAKER_03
I m in Santa Monica.
0
SPEAKER_03
I just got arrested for DUI.
0
SPEAKER_03
He s panicked.
0
SPEAKER_03
He s got to get out of jail immediately.
0
SPEAKER_03
He s so scared.
0
SPEAKER_03
And in my mind, I m like, you had to spend the night, dude.
0
SPEAKER_03
Like, it s going to cost so much to get bailed out.
0
SPEAKER_03
Regardless, he wants to get bailed out.
0
SPEAKER_03
So I go down to the police station and then I got to go across the street to the bail bonds person.
0
SPEAKER_03
And to your point, they don t want you in there.
0
SPEAKER_03
They have all the leverage.
0
SPEAKER_03
They know you re fucked.
0
SPEAKER_02
They don t want you?
0
SPEAKER_02
Why don t they want you?
0
SPEAKER_02
Because that s how they make money, right?
0
SPEAKER_03
I mean, in the way that like, they just make no effort at customer service or welcoming you to the place.
0
SPEAKER_03
They know you need them.
0
SPEAKER_03
They don t need to be polite or helpful.
0
SPEAKER_03
You re not debating whether or not you re in the mood for a rectangle chicken sandwich from Burger King, right?
0
SPEAKER_03
Or maybe a new blouse.
0
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, you re there in desperation because someone you love is incarcerated.
0
SPEAKER_04
Across the street and it s 2 a.m.
0
SPEAKER_03
and they know the score.
0
SPEAKER_03
So yeah, they re just not very nice.
0
SPEAKER_03
And then you give them 10% of the bail.
0
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_03
And then I got my sweet friend out, but not before.
0
SPEAKER_03
And this is pretty funny.
0
SPEAKER_03
I went back across the street to the police station.
0
SPEAKER_03
And again, I wasn t drinking.
0
SPEAKER_03
It was one of these weird phases where I was sober.
0
SPEAKER_03
I had quit drinking, but I was doing lots of Vicodin.
0
SPEAKER_03
And I had done, I don t know, since the show, I had taken like 23 or four in the mid-20s.
0
SPEAKER_03
And I come back across the street and Bree s with me.
0
SPEAKER_03
And I m talking to the clerk.
0
SPEAKER_03
I m like, okay, so here s the paperwork.
0
SPEAKER_03
Excuse me.
0
SPEAKER_03
And I walk six feet to the bathroom that s so close to the clerk.
0
SPEAKER_03
Go inside, throw up very loudly.
0
SPEAKER_03
Loudly, loudly, loudly.
0
SPEAKER_03
Aggressive.
0
SPEAKER_03
Breeze is stuck there in the waiting room of the Hollywood police station hearing me vomit.
0
SPEAKER_03
And then I come out with a big smile on my face and I m like, okay, was there anything else we needed to get him out?
0
SPEAKER_03
thinking, are they going to arrest me?
0
SPEAKER_03
I mean, why am I here?
0
SPEAKER_03
Completely, you know, so guilty.
0
SPEAKER_04
What do I have going on?
0
SPEAKER_04
Did you pay in cash?
0
SPEAKER_04
Did you take money from an ATM or write a check or... Do you remember?
0
SPEAKER_03
Boy, what a great question.
0
SPEAKER_03
Again, it s 2 a.m.
0
SPEAKER_03
I was on 25 Vicodin.
0
SPEAKER_03
You were on it.
0
SPEAKER_03
I can t remember.
0
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, but you paid.
0
SPEAKER_03
You paid your 10%.
0
SPEAKER_03
I paid the 10% and it wasn t a crazy amount.
0
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, and how quickly to your buddy was out of the station?
0
SPEAKER_03
This whole thing took at least two hours, right?
0
SPEAKER_03
We didn t leave there till 3.30 in the morning, and at which point he could have probably hung for another three hours and gotten out at 6.30.
0
SPEAKER_04
So it s 10% of- Generally it s 10, plus some fees that are built in as well.
0
SPEAKER_03
Service fees, even though the service isn t great.
0
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_04
The whole thing with bail that I find fascinating, and I guess why it s illegal in other countries, if you can t afford to pay your bond, you either spend your time in prison, which makes it really hard to get your case together and figure out the whole impending court thing that s coming up.
0
SPEAKER_04
And if you do pay, if you have a lot of money, it s fine, you pay.
0
SPEAKER_04
If you don t have money, then you get a family member to go and, or you pay for it, but you re in debt then, right?
0
SPEAKER_04
And you re kind of screwed.
0
SPEAKER_04
Whereas, yeah, in New Zealand, a judge decides, does sort of a risk assessment, the crime you ve done, are you going to pose a risk to the community?
0
SPEAKER_04
And if you don t pose a risk, you can, you know, go out into the community and do your thing and, you know, turn up for your court date without any bond.
0
SPEAKER_04
And if you don t turn up, then an arrest warrant is issued and it goes from there.
0
SPEAKER_03
But implicit in that system is you re at the whimsy of when the judge arrives to hear your case, right?
0
SPEAKER_03
A hundred percent.
0
SPEAKER_03
So you could be in there for the weekend.
0
SPEAKER_03
You could.
1
SPEAKER_02
I feel like what Americans like about bail is the idea that I can pay my hard-earned money for my freedom.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yes, immediately.
1
SPEAKER_02
Immediately?
1
SPEAKER_02
Start working on my case.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yes, totally.
1
SPEAKER_02
And that, yeah, if you have money, I guess that s great.
1
SPEAKER_02
If you don t, it s less great.
1
SPEAKER_02
The risk is, in New Zealand, if you get a bad judge or someone who s shitty, then there s F all you can do.
1
SPEAKER_03
Well, you still have to go to court.
1
SPEAKER_01
You do.
1
SPEAKER_01
You re basically giving them money that they say, you can have this back when you show up for court to stand trial.
1
SPEAKER_03
Oh, they give it back?
1
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
If you turn up, you get it back.
1
SPEAKER_01
Not the 10%.
1
SPEAKER_01
Not the 10%.
1
SPEAKER_01
No, the 10% and the fees are still gone.
1
SPEAKER_01
You re paying the bail bondsman 10% so that they can secure your collateral.
1
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
1
SPEAKER_01
Your original bail amount.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
Doesn t the entire thing feel very Old West-y?
1
SPEAKER_02
Oh, so Old West-y.
1
SPEAKER_02
And there s a few things in America that feel that way to me.
1
SPEAKER_02
Like I write checks to pay my rent.
1
SPEAKER_02
That feels old school-y.
1
SPEAKER_02
Putting quarters in the parking meter.
1
SPEAKER_02
That feels like kind of this old fashioned weird thing.
1
SPEAKER_03
Even voting, voting on paper.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
Going into your little voting booth, filling it in.
1
SPEAKER_03
I mean, I know why we have to, but it is weird and old fashioned.
1
SPEAKER_02
What was your other bail?
1
SPEAKER_01
You did another bail session?
1
SPEAKER_01
Two other folks go down with the UIs where I had to.
1
SPEAKER_02
You re a good friend.
1
SPEAKER_01
You re the good friend to call.
1
SPEAKER_01
I don t know if I m a good friend.
1
SPEAKER_01
Well, that s the latter part is what it is.
1
SPEAKER_01
Everyone knows I m in the no good.
1
SPEAKER_01
So it s like, fuck, I don t really want anyone to know about this.
1
SPEAKER_01
Tax won t be judgmental of this.
1
SPEAKER_01
I think that s really at the core of it.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, OK.
1
SPEAKER_01
You know, and my friend, he was intending on hiding this from, I think, everyone else in the performing arts community we were parts of.
1
SPEAKER_03
So it s normally $1,000?
1
SPEAKER_03
It was $1,000?
1
SPEAKER_01
I want to say in the case of the DUI, it was $1,000.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it depends on the crime.
1
SPEAKER_02
I suppose what you ve been accused of, how much bail set at.
1
SPEAKER_01
In some states, no, they have mandatory murder.
1
SPEAKER_01
There is no bail.
1
SPEAKER_03
Right.
1
SPEAKER_02
Certain things, you know, first degree, you re not going to get bail.
1
SPEAKER_02
Certain things, there s no bail going on.
1
SPEAKER_02
But I think the stat I read that sort of surprised me, although America is very big, there s 400,000 people held in local jails while waiting for trial every day.
1
SPEAKER_02
Wow.
1
SPEAKER_02
Just waiting.
1
SPEAKER_02
Which is a lot of people each day.
1
SPEAKER_01
It is 0.1% of our population, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
A tenth of 1% of our population.
1
SPEAKER_01
Times 10 would be 4 million.
1
SPEAKER_01
Times 100 would be 400 million.
1
SPEAKER_01
I m so bad at maths.
1
SPEAKER_01
I think you re right.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s a lot of people waiting in a prison cell, you know?
1
SPEAKER_01
I wonder how many are in Philippines, because didn t you say only the Philippines have the system?
1
SPEAKER_02
Just you and the Philippines that use the system.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s literally illegal anywhere else.
1
SPEAKER_02
The idea of having this entity outside of the courts and the justice system that s like a for-profit business.
1
SPEAKER_02
But yeah, I set off to- You re not going to object, Monica?
1
SPEAKER_01
Are you, you were snoozing?
1
SPEAKER_03
I wasn t, but sometimes it s hard to talk when everyone s talking.
1
SPEAKER_03
Oh, this is boys, isn t it?
1
SPEAKER_02
We re all talking, talking.
1
SPEAKER_03
Oh, it s fine.
1
SPEAKER_03
Boys are boys.
1
SPEAKER_03
Boys will be boys.
1
SPEAKER_03
B-W-B-B.
1
SPEAKER_03
Um, no, I, I ve never been arrested.
1
SPEAKER_03
So, oh God.
1
SPEAKER_01
No, not gonna... I just can t imagine that happening, Monica.
1
SPEAKER_01
I can t.
1
SPEAKER_01
What would it happen for?
1
SPEAKER_01
This was a big debate we had on an episode.
1
SPEAKER_03
Like, could I ever be?
1
SPEAKER_01
She said I would never.
1
SPEAKER_01
I m like, be careful.
1
SPEAKER_03
No, I said I would never do... Trank.
1
SPEAKER_03
Trank.
1
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
It would be a driving phase, I know where this started.
1
SPEAKER_03
And I stand by that.
1
SPEAKER_03
But also never say never, because if I lost everything tomorrow, and everyone in my life died, and I was in so much pain, I might do Trank.
1
SPEAKER_01
And someone sat down next to you, and they re like, hey, you want some Trank?
1
SPEAKER_03
It might be like, fuck it, I guess.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I d rather be slumped over in a bowl for the next four hours than be thinking about whatever.
1
SPEAKER_03
Oh, it s so upsetting.
1
SPEAKER_03
Anyway, but no, I ve never been arrested.
1
SPEAKER_03
And so I do find this kind of a fascinating topic.
1
SPEAKER_03
And in Good Will Hunting, he has bail.
1
SPEAKER_03
And that s really my reference point for it.
1
SPEAKER_00
This is your lived real world experience.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_03
And I never really understood it.
1
SPEAKER_03
And I think maybe a lot of people don t really understand it.
1
SPEAKER_03
They just hear it.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I d never thought about it properly until this episode.
1
SPEAKER_01
Well, Monica, and I do not want to put you on the spot, but you don t think you ve ever been over the legal limit when you were driving?
1
SPEAKER_03
Oh my God.
1
SPEAKER_03
Dex, you re going to get me arrested.
1
SPEAKER_01
No, I m just saying like, I see you, you play it safe, but also certainly there s been some times you probably would have blown a .08.
1
SPEAKER_01
You ve been close at some point.
1
SPEAKER_01
I think people would relate.
1
SPEAKER_03
I ve been walking lately, the places.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay, well that s lately.
1
SPEAKER_01
I m just saying in your career as a drinker.
1
SPEAKER_03
I mean, yes, probably.
1
SPEAKER_03
Why are you doing this?
1
SPEAKER_01
Why are you here?
1
SPEAKER_01
I wasn t being close.
1
SPEAKER_01
I m just saying that s an example of you would potentially need bail.
1
SPEAKER_01
If you got a DUI, if you got arrested for DUI.
1
SPEAKER_03
I know, I m not the one that said I would never get arrested.
1
SPEAKER_03
Oh.
1
SPEAKER_03
David did.
1
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, that s true.
1
SPEAKER_03
I think there s a chance.
1
SPEAKER_02
You re saying you ll definitely get arrested at some point.
1
SPEAKER_03
I don t know.
1
SPEAKER_03
Life is long, and we just don t know, and I could get arrested.
1
SPEAKER_03
I really don t want to, though.
1
SPEAKER_01
I hope you re seeing this as my favorable opinion of you, which I m not counting you out for anything.
1
SPEAKER_01
You might have shaved sides one day.
1
SPEAKER_01
You might be at a punk show in the pit.
1
SPEAKER_03
These are all things you want.
1
SPEAKER_01
I just, you know.
1
SPEAKER_03
You want me to be a rebel.
1
SPEAKER_01
An outlaw.
1
SPEAKER_03
I know.
1
SPEAKER_03
I feel, now I m really nervous because I am drinking today.
1
SPEAKER_03
Right now?
1
SPEAKER_00
She s been on it all morning.
1
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
1
SPEAKER_00
Is it St.
1
SPEAKER_00
Paddy s Day and I didn t know?
1
SPEAKER_00
She s going to jump straight in that car.
1
SPEAKER_03
Later, later, because BTS, I m done drinking for a while starting tomorrow.
1
SPEAKER_01
Well, today s a big one.
1
SPEAKER_01
We got to get in a week s worth of drinking tonight.
1
SPEAKER_00
Today s the day I get the call from Monica.
1
SPEAKER_00
Monica s calling.
1
SPEAKER_00
Better take the call.
1
SPEAKER_01
You can relate to everybody who s gone to treatment at this point, Monica, because this is everyone s last day before treatment is dangerous.
1
SPEAKER_03
No, it s going to be fine.
1
SPEAKER_03
It s going to be fine.
1
SPEAKER_03
I m not going to drink that much.
1
SPEAKER_03
But now I really I m like, I m going to Uber.
1
SPEAKER_03
Now I m scared.
1
SPEAKER_01
OK.
1
SPEAKER_01
I didn t mean to scare you, but I love this so much.
1
SPEAKER_03
Well, I mean, drinking and driving is like the worst.
1
SPEAKER_03
That s the worst thing you could do.
1
SPEAKER_02
But it s so easy to do.
1
SPEAKER_02
One of the easiest because you re so full of confidence and you re just going home.
1
SPEAKER_02
You know the route.
1
SPEAKER_01
I think it s what Esther Perel says.
1
SPEAKER_01
Infidelity is universally reviled and universally practiced.
1
SPEAKER_01
So it s one of these things that we all totally agree no one should be driving the car while they ve drank.
1
SPEAKER_01
And yet most of us have driven a car after we drank.
1
SPEAKER_01
So you re in this tricky sitch where it s like, do you want to be dishonest?
1
SPEAKER_03
I don t want to be dishonest, but I do want to not be doing what I m doing.
1
SPEAKER_03
Drinking and driving is so bad.
1
SPEAKER_03
I mean, it s going to kill someone.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I want to be clear, because now it s sounding like you drink and you drive drunk.
1
SPEAKER_01
You don t.
1
SPEAKER_01
You don t.
1
SPEAKER_01
No, but everyone has that moment.
1
SPEAKER_01
You ll drive after a drink, which you re probably legally golden.
1
SPEAKER_03
Right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_03
It s just like, how many is two okay?
1
SPEAKER_01
I think like two, they say in like two hours and you re under, we d have to look it up.
1
SPEAKER_01
I don t want to advise anyone.
1
SPEAKER_03
My tolerance is high.
1
SPEAKER_02
I have a question.
1
SPEAKER_02
I haven t been driving here for long in America, but I ve never been pulled over and I ve never gone through like, in New Zealand,
1
SPEAKER_02
There s on a Friday or Saturday night, it s hard to drive out and go into town or go anywhere without there being a drink driving stop.
1
SPEAKER_02
So you ll get pulled up and you ll get, everyone gets breathalyzed and breath tested.
1
SPEAKER_03
Everyone?
1
SPEAKER_02
I m saying, I mean, everyone on that road will be stopped and tested over a two hour checkpoint.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, but in America, I feel like I m never going to get pulled over here.
1
SPEAKER_01
Do you know what I mean?
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes, you re right to feel that way, because I m from Detroit and you got to watch your P s and Q s in Detroit.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I was just home driving and I m reminded that they have speed traps like every three miles on the highway.
1
SPEAKER_01
There are no speed traps here in LA.
1
SPEAKER_01
What is a speed trap?
1
SPEAKER_01
So where they re running radar, they re still on the side of the road and they re running radar and they want to give speeding tickets.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
The CHP doesn t work that way.
1
SPEAKER_01
The CHP cracks down on areas that have had a high fatality or collision.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like they only address problem areas.
1
SPEAKER_01
They re not just blanket.
1
SPEAKER_03
They re not just trying to rack up tickets.
1
SPEAKER_01
Right.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s just not what they re about.
1
SPEAKER_01
But every time you cross into a new city,
1
SPEAKER_01
their local police are on the highway getting some revenue.
1
SPEAKER_01
And also at night, if you re driving past midnight, a cop s going to get behind you and they re going to follow you for a while and they re going to run your, but that doesn t happen in LA.
1
SPEAKER_01
They ve got bigger fish to fry.
1
SPEAKER_01
They re like waiting for strong arm robbery and all these other, and there s helicopters flying.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like, yeah, so it is different.
1
SPEAKER_01
I think
1
SPEAKER_01
Your likelihood of getting pulled over at a random traffic stop in L.A.
1
SPEAKER_01
is one-tenth of what it is in Detroit.
1
SPEAKER_02
No, that s what I ve found here.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I wonder if L.A.
1
SPEAKER_02
that does make people more likely to jump in that car.
1
SPEAKER_01
We have a good culture here, though.
1
SPEAKER_01
I think culturally L.A.
1
SPEAKER_01
is very against drinking and driving.
1
SPEAKER_01
I think peer to peer.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s not cool.
1
SPEAKER_01
No one likes it.
1
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, it s looked down upon even just within your own friend group.
1
SPEAKER_01
Good.
1
SPEAKER_03
Like no one wants that.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, as it should be.
1
SPEAKER_01
But where my group of friends in when I was in Detroit, it was like we all knew we were going to be driving blasted.
1
SPEAKER_01
It was more about like, you got it.
1
SPEAKER_01
You better take Hickory Ridge home because I think that cops like no one s shaming anyone.
1
SPEAKER_01
It was understood.
2
SPEAKER_02
good.
2
SPEAKER_02
Again, also rural Michigan, the bar s 12 miles from your house.
2
SPEAKER_02
How the fuck, there s no Uber back then.
2
SPEAKER_02
There s no cabs in our town.
2
SPEAKER_02
Detroit sounds like New Zealand.
2
SPEAKER_04
But also you got pulled over the other day.
2
SPEAKER_04
I saw it.
2
SPEAKER_02
I got pulled over a few times in like a week cause I had no plates on my car.
2
SPEAKER_04
Right, exactly.
2
SPEAKER_04
So they are.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s you always in and sort of out quite full on cars as well.
2
SPEAKER_02
That s a great point.
2
SPEAKER_03
And you re often zhuzhing around.
2
SPEAKER_04
I think that s true.
2
SPEAKER_04
You are.
2
SPEAKER_02
I think if I was driving your Prius without plates, I wouldn t have got pulled over.
2
SPEAKER_02
But yeah, a fucking lowered Hellcat wide body, 700 horse blacked out windows, no plate.
2
SPEAKER_02
It looks like guys coming from a bank robbery.
2
SPEAKER_02
I d pull me over.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I m glad they did.
2
SPEAKER_02
And there s me and the kids every time.
2
SPEAKER_02
You re clapping.
2
SPEAKER_04
I mean, just like for my own safety, for crazies like you.
2
SPEAKER_02
It looks like a hitman car from a movie for sure.
2
SPEAKER_02
Oh, I love this.
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, I drove by and he was getting pulled over.
2
SPEAKER_04
Really good for this conversation, literally just happened.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I was just, I pulled up next to you.
2
SPEAKER_02
You were in front of me, and then- Well, I had, but I had passed you.
2
SPEAKER_02
You had gotten off the highway earlier.
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, you passed me, because I drive kind of regular, and Dax drives fast.
2
SPEAKER_02
Well, no, but I was excited to see your car, and I was with the kids, and Christina, and we all waved, and then I, you know, went about our business of getting us home speedily.
2
SPEAKER_02
Everyone s on a schedule.
2
SPEAKER_02
That s such a fun thing to see, play out in front.
2
SPEAKER_02
I wish I was able to fly in the water.
2
SPEAKER_04
We ve also got pulled over, when I ve been in the car with you, we ve gotten pulled over.
2
SPEAKER_04
Like, you get pulled, he gets pulled over a lot, because he s speeding all the time.
2
SPEAKER_03
I think I m a pretty safe driver.
2
SPEAKER_03
I ve only crashed once in New Zealand when I was on like a dirt road taking a shortcut back from a holiday and I spun out and I went into the forest and a tree stopped me.
2
SPEAKER_03
It was really scary though.
2
SPEAKER_04
Oh my god, a tree stopped me.
2
SPEAKER_03
I was dovetailing.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s that thing where you overcorrect one way and then back the other way and I was just a mess.
2
SPEAKER_04
Were you on your phone?
2
SPEAKER_03
I wasn t on my phone.
2
SPEAKER_03
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_03
Were you drunk?
2
SPEAKER_03
I wasn t drunk.
2
SPEAKER_03
Were you a peyote?
2
SPEAKER_03
No, I wasn t on none of those things.
2
SPEAKER_03
But I ve just crashed once.
2
SPEAKER_03
I think I m a really good driver.
2
SPEAKER_03
I thought you crashed a car here that you were borrowing.
2
SPEAKER_03
No, I left my car for my friend in New Zealand when I got stuck here, and he had it for three days and rode it off on day three.
2
SPEAKER_04
Well, he didn t crash my car, but my tire exploded.
2
SPEAKER_03
Oh, the tire blew out.
2
SPEAKER_03
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, Monica s car was, the car tires were in bad shape, and it blew up on the freeway.
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, but it could have been his driving.
2
SPEAKER_04
Terrifying.
2
SPEAKER_02
It could have, it sounds like he s getting into tank slappers all the time, overcorrecting.
2
SPEAKER_03
Blew up on me, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_03
Probably the most American thing that s ever happened to me is when I did
2
SPEAKER_03
breakdown, I was waiting outside of the car because it was too hot inside, and this car pulled over behind us, and I thought they were coming to help me and my friend, but a guy just got out and did a silly dance in front of my car while the others filmed.
2
SPEAKER_02
No!
2
SPEAKER_03
And then got back in the car and fucked off!
2
SPEAKER_03
Oh, was it an influencer?
2
SPEAKER_02
Yes!
2
SPEAKER_03
Fucking influencers!
2
SPEAKER_03
I thought, oh, someone s here to help, this is beautiful, I love America.
2
SPEAKER_03
Silly dance.
2
SPEAKER_03
Fuck them!
2
SPEAKER_02
A drive-by influencer.
2
SPEAKER_02
I was so, I was like, yeah, I am in America.
2
SPEAKER_02
Here I am.
2
SPEAKER_02
I wish I would have solved that.
2
SPEAKER_03
Oh, it was so, I looked through TikTok for a while to see if it was like a trend or something.
2
SPEAKER_02
And not helping disabled cars is a trend.
2
SPEAKER_02
It probably is.
2
SPEAKER_02
It probably is.
2
SPEAKER_03
Sick.
2
SPEAKER_03
All right.
2
SPEAKER_03
So look, for the little documentary this week, I was in Oklahoma.
2
SPEAKER_03
Row notice, there were a lot of bail bondsman offices everywhere.
2
SPEAKER_03
I mean, they re everywhere in America, but Oklahoma seemed high.
2
SPEAKER_03
So that s where I started my little doc.
2
SPEAKER_03
I m in a part of Oklahoma called Bricktown.
2
SPEAKER_03
There s a canal down here, and all around it are lots of bars and places to eat.
2
SPEAKER_03
Out of everywhere I ve been in Oklahoma City so far, this bit feels the most alive to me.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s outside one of the bars, I end up talking with a guy who is curious about my sound gear.
2
SPEAKER_03
He s bigger than me, taller and wider.
2
SPEAKER_03
His name is Jeff, he s a biker, and he s a big unit.
2
SPEAKER_01
I ve lived here about almost 38 years.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, when I first came here in the 80s, bro, this is where you came to buy crack and weed.
2
SPEAKER_01
I swear to God, man.
2
SPEAKER_03
But Jeff says Oklahoma is on the up and up.
2
SPEAKER_03
He loves it here.
2
SPEAKER_01
Coming from California, this is a state where you can, with your mind and hard work and ethic, you can do anything you want here.
2
SPEAKER_01
I really think of this as like LA in the 70s.
2
SPEAKER_03
I d been canvassing locals for their take on bail in America, and the bail bondsmen, just because I d seen so many places around town advertising bail bonds.
2
SPEAKER_03
The billboards beckoned me, 24-hour bail bonds, fast professional service.
2
SPEAKER_03
At night, fluoro lights flashed as I drove by.
2
SPEAKER_03
I mean, I ve seen them all around America, but it had just struck me.
2
SPEAKER_03
What is America s obsession with bail bonds?
2
SPEAKER_03
We don t have that at all in New Zealand.
2
SPEAKER_03
I m just curious what your take is if you even have one on the bail bonds system here and how that works.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s strange you ask.
2
SPEAKER_01
I know about your system well.
2
SPEAKER_03
I ride a motorcycle.
2
SPEAKER_03
As in, he s been to New Zealand where, yes, we have bikers, gangs, all that fun stuff America has.
2
SPEAKER_01
And you know, in New Zealand, I mean, you can be labeled simply by a tattoo.
2
SPEAKER_01
And to be able to take away your right, it s like being proven guilty off the top.
2
SPEAKER_03
He s on a tangent, but I m going with it.
2
SPEAKER_03
Because he s right.
2
SPEAKER_03
I think it s fair to say in New Zealand, if you re tattooed and driving a Harley, the police back in New Zealand are more likely to hassle you.
2
SPEAKER_01
I also know some guys that ride some motorcycles.
2
SPEAKER_01
There s this huge stigma going out against a lot of bad behaviour against certain groups of people and to categorise them and not give them the opportunity to prove their self innocent is, I think, a little bit out of touch.
2
SPEAKER_01
You re arrested and you have no way of bonding yourself out to take advantage of all your rights.
2
SPEAKER_01
Nothing against New Zealand.
2
SPEAKER_03
My takeaway is that he likes the idea of being able to pay a bond to get out of prison while you await trial.
2
SPEAKER_03
And he thinks that doesn t exist in New Zealand.
2
SPEAKER_03
That you sort of remain locked up, awaiting trial.
2
SPEAKER_03
Well, he s sort of right in that it s rare that anyone pays a bond to get out while they await trial.
2
SPEAKER_03
But that doesn t mean you can t be granted bail in New Zealand.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s just up to the judge, not money.
2
SPEAKER_03
And in New Zealand, unless there s a good reason, we don t like keeping everyone behind bars while they await their fair trial.
2
SPEAKER_05
I think that incarcerating people who have the presumption of innocence feels like something that as Kiwis we re fundamentally opposed to.
2
SPEAKER_03
I m talking to New Zealand criminal lawyer Emma Priest to check my reasoning on all this, because I realise I m not 100% sure how bail works in New Zealand.
2
SPEAKER_03
I ve never had to get it yet.
2
SPEAKER_03
I was almost arrested once on New Year s Eve for drinking a beer in a no-beer zone, but I charmed the police officer and avoided the cells.
2
SPEAKER_05
Yeah, so it s the judge.
2
SPEAKER_05
The Defence Council makes an application for bail.
2
SPEAKER_05
It can be bail simplicita, which means without electronic monitoring.
2
SPEAKER_05
And they basically go through a series of factors, which, as I said, are set out in the Bail Act.
2
SPEAKER_05
There s different factors for homicides.
2
SPEAKER_05
It s obviously harder to get released on bail.
2
SPEAKER_05
Different factors for serious drug dealing.
2
SPEAKER_05
You have to satisfy the court.
2
SPEAKER_05
You won t commit any further serious drug dealing if you re released on bail.
2
SPEAKER_05
And also if you re facing sentence.
2
SPEAKER_05
So if you ve pleaded guilty and a sentence of imprisonment is likely, then it s much harder to get bail.
2
SPEAKER_03
An American would argue that if there s no money involved with bail, what s the incentive for anyone to turn up at court?
2
SPEAKER_03
There must be a bond put down or else everyone s just going to run for the hills.
2
SPEAKER_05
Yeah, I mean, I think one, New Zealand s quite small, so it s pretty hard to hide, I think.
2
SPEAKER_05
Secondly, I d say the police are pretty good in New Zealand.
2
SPEAKER_05
People, they seem to be found pretty quickly.
2
SPEAKER_05
Very few exceptions to that.
2
SPEAKER_05
The third thing is that, of course, with those two factors in play, what you re left with is that if they are caught and they repeatedly breach their bail, particularly by re-offending, they re just going to be remanded in custody.
2
SPEAKER_05
And as I said, that can be, say, a two-year wait till trial, which can be really significant.
2
SPEAKER_03
So, to reiterate, paying bail is very rare in New Zealand.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s only available in the High Court and it s very, very rare.
2
SPEAKER_03
And we certainly don t have bail bondsmen involved in that process if it happens.
2
SPEAKER_03
Or bounty hunters.
2
SPEAKER_03
Okay, so two things here from my perspective about the American system.
2
SPEAKER_03
One, the idea of having to pay a cash bond to get out of prison while you await trial seems unusual to me.
2
SPEAKER_03
And the idea that if you can t afford it, you have to go and visit a bail bondsman, that feels like a disaster waiting to happen.
2
SPEAKER_03
Maybe it s not just me that finds all this weird.
2
SPEAKER_03
Bail bondsmen are unique in two countries, the Philippines and the US.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s illegal everywhere else on the planet.
2
SPEAKER_03
But I realized I still didn t really know how paying bail works in America.
2
SPEAKER_03
And so I got in touch with someone who did.
2
SPEAKER_00
So my name is Allie Preston, and I m currently a senior policy analyst at the Center for American Progress.
2
SPEAKER_03
Allie Preston isn t a big fan of the American system of bail bonds.
2
SPEAKER_03
She wants to see America s 15,000 bail bond agents go away, for reasons she ll explain later.
2
SPEAKER_00
The general process that occurs is if you are arrested for a crime in this country, there will be a decision of whether or not you will be released pretrial or you will remain incarcerated.
2
SPEAKER_00
If the judge deems based on a variety of different tactics, one common tactic in the U.S.
2
SPEAKER_00
is to use bail schedules, which basically is just a list that says if a person is accused of this crime, this is how much money they should have to pay to get released pretrial.
2
SPEAKER_00
So when a person is not able to afford the amount of bail that they are assigned, they often will turn to a commercial bail company to help.
3
SPEAKER_00
pay for that cost.
3
SPEAKER_02
A commercial bail company is a phrase that might seem normal to an American, but it s really surprising to me.
3
SPEAKER_02
The idea that there s this outside business making money off the justice system is really American.
3
SPEAKER_00
So if you have a $10,000 bail assignment, which is about the average in this country, you would be responsible for paying $1,000 to a commercial bail agent.
3
SPEAKER_02
So a person who can t afford bail themselves goes to a bail bondsman who pays the bail for them if they put down 10%.
3
SPEAKER_02
I was curious how much bail was for different crimes.
3
SPEAKER_02
It varies a lot depending on so many things.
3
SPEAKER_02
Age, history, circumstances, state.
3
SPEAKER_02
Whether it s a state or a federal charge.
3
SPEAKER_02
But some ballpark figures, as I had no idea, maybe you don t either.
3
SPEAKER_02
Bail for second-degree murder can sit at around $250,000.
3
SPEAKER_02
Accessory to first-degree murder, $500,000.
3
SPEAKER_02
Voluntary manslaughter is $100,000, while involuntary manslaughter is more like $25,000.
3
SPEAKER_02
Assault with a firearm, $50,000.
3
SPEAKER_02
Assault with a deadly weapon, $25,000.
3
SPEAKER_02
Kidnapping ranges from $25,000 up to a million.
3
SPEAKER_02
Burglary, $20,000 to $50,000.
3
SPEAKER_02
And then, with all that in mind, it s then the bail agent s job to keep on your ass so you end up in court.
3
SPEAKER_02
If you miss court, they don t get the bond returned.
3
SPEAKER_02
And that s when they might call in a bounty hunter.
3
SPEAKER_02
Bail bondsmen don t want their money to disappear, so they re really motivated to chase you down and bring you in, quickly.
3
SPEAKER_00
So the commercial bail agent will then try to first find the person who did not appear.
3
SPEAKER_00
If they return the person to custody within a certain period of time, it s usually 30 days, sometimes a couple months, depending on the jurisdiction, then the person goes back to custody.
3
SPEAKER_00
The bail agent doesn t have to pay any money to the court because they have satisfied it.
3
SPEAKER_00
If they are not able to return that individual in the amount of time of the grace period, then the commercial bail agent is going to employ a variety of tactics to try to get the money from the individual.
3
SPEAKER_00
And this often, unfortunately, is really combined with a lot of abusive and manipulative practices.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yee-haw!
3
SPEAKER_02
Come here!
3
SPEAKER_02
Come on, brother!
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah!
3
SPEAKER_02
Working for a bail bondsman, I guess you do things like kick down doors and wrestle people to the floor to make them get to court, or get the money they owe.
3
SPEAKER_02
The official term for a bounty hunter is Bail Enforcement Agent.
3
SPEAKER_02
There are other catches for those who can t afford it, who have to resort to using a bail bondsman.
3
SPEAKER_02
If you can t pay that 10% fee, then chances are you ll end up with a predatory finance plan to pay it back.
3
SPEAKER_02
Also, some bail bond agents are not just happy with that 10% fee, there can be other hidden fees as well.
3
SPEAKER_00
One of the key ways that they make money, though, is through their assignment of fees.
3
SPEAKER_00
If you don t appear to court, they can assess very large fees that they will often call a recovery fee.
3
SPEAKER_00
So there are instances of people who are charged like $20,000 because they accidentally missed their court date.
3
SPEAKER_02
To make sure that client turns up to court, some bail bondsmen require collateral as well, like property, your house, or your parents  house.
3
SPEAKER_02
As journalist Adam Liptak put it, a bail bondsman means you re an insurance salesman, a social worker, a lightly regulated law enforcement agent, a real estate appraiser, and a for-profit wing of the American justice system.
3
SPEAKER_02
With all this buzzing around in my head, it was clear I needed to meet a bail bondsman.
3
SPEAKER_02
This seemed like it would be easy.
3
SPEAKER_02
Driving around Oklahoma, signs screaming bail bonds weren t hard to find.
3
SPEAKER_02
You just follow the flashing lights.
3
SPEAKER_02
But while their locations were easy to find, it was not easy finding a bail bondsman to talk to me.
3
SPEAKER_02
It took me a few days.
3
SPEAKER_02
I mean, they talked to me when I walked in, but going on a podcast?
3
SPEAKER_02
Not a chance.
3
SPEAKER_01
until I met Ron Eden.
3
SPEAKER_01
with my mom.
3
SPEAKER_01
She started it when she was about 66.
3
SPEAKER_02
Ron Eden inherited Eden Bonds from his mother.
3
SPEAKER_02
He s now 82 and is one of the calmest, slowest talkers I ve ever met.
3
SPEAKER_02
He reminds me of the Westerns I used to watch with my dad growing up.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oklahoma is still a state that believes that you shouldn t steal somebody else s property, unlike California.
3
SPEAKER_01
Little dig at LA there, but I ll let it go.
3
SPEAKER_01
Shoplifting is still an issue here.
3
SPEAKER_01
Assault and battery.
3
SPEAKER_01
Domestic assault and battery is something that is treated seriously here.
3
SPEAKER_02
His voice is like ASMR.
3
SPEAKER_02
You could use him on a sleep app to get to sleep.
3
SPEAKER_02
But don t go to sleep, because I love Ron, and I want you to listen to him.
3
SPEAKER_01
Normally, the people that I deal with are moms and dads, girlfriends, friends, grandparents.
3
SPEAKER_01
Those are the ones who come in here and ask me, would I get Johnny out of jail?
3
SPEAKER_01
So I m dealing with very good people.
3
SPEAKER_02
Ron doesn t fit the mold of the bail bondsman that I ve built up in my mind.
3
SPEAKER_02
As some kind of extra slippery car salesman, he sees his role as a vital service to the American public.
3
SPEAKER_01
In a sense, there is a contract that exists between me, the co-signers, the moms and dads, and the court system.
3
SPEAKER_01
If Johnny doesn t show up for court, and if we cannot find him and get him back in time, then the court says, bring us the money.
3
SPEAKER_01
And Oklahoma does not permit payments.
3
SPEAKER_01
If it s a $10,000 bond, they want $10,000.
3
SPEAKER_01
So that s the risk that we take when we bond somebody out.
3
SPEAKER_02
He tells me sometimes those who put down the bond regret it.
3
SPEAKER_02
They fall out with the person they re bailing out and want to escape their contract.
3
SPEAKER_02
Ron says that s hard.
3
SPEAKER_02
They have to find someone else to replace them on the contract.
3
SPEAKER_02
I remember that quote from earlier as well, that bail bondsmen are also social workers and real estate agents too.
3
SPEAKER_01
Sometimes, given the size of the bond, we will say that you ve got to put up property.
3
SPEAKER_01
We re not talking about a vehicle.
3
SPEAKER_01
We re talking about homes.
3
SPEAKER_01
In Oklahoma, if you try to put up a home with the court system, the courts require that the home shall be worth four times the bail amount.
3
SPEAKER_01
So if it s a $100,000 bond, you ve got to have a house clear that is worth $400,000.
3
SPEAKER_02
A $400,000 home on the line is a big deal.
3
SPEAKER_02
That someone has to risk losing a home to get someone out from behind bars or their way at trials seems a bit bonkers.
3
SPEAKER_02
But the way Ron sees it, he s providing a service to people who need it, and want it.
3
SPEAKER_01
I am aware that we all have clay feet, and any of us at any given time can do something illegal, and I think all of us have at some point.
3
SPEAKER_01
I just don t see the people coming through our door here as being nefarious people without worth.
3
SPEAKER_01
I see people trying all the time.
3
SPEAKER_01
Quite often they get addicted and lack control over their actions.
3
SPEAKER_01
But there will still be, for the most part,
3
SPEAKER_01
Moms and dads and grandparents and others who will continue to love them and try to get them out of jail.
3
SPEAKER_02
Before I leave, I ask about the giant pink teddy bear sitting on his desk.
3
SPEAKER_02
He tells me a client gave it to him when he helped them out.
3
SPEAKER_01
One of these days I will find a family that will come in here with children and I will hand that to them and that ll take care of that.
3
SPEAKER_02
Ron is currently thinking about the future of his business.
3
SPEAKER_02
He took it over from his mum when she got old, and now he s gotten old himself.
3
SPEAKER_02
He s not quite sure what to do next.
3
SPEAKER_02
From what I can tell, he works with just one other guy, who s been quietly eating a sandwich in his office while me and Ron talk.
3
SPEAKER_02
And Ron?
3
SPEAKER_02
He s at a crossroads in the bail bonds business.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m not married and I don t have children.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I am faced with that issue because I am 82 years old and there is an end coming.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so I need to do something as to who would want to take this on.
3
SPEAKER_02
Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird.
3
SPEAKER_02
We ll be right back after a word from our sponsors.
3
SPEAKER_02
Flightless Bird is brought to you by Helix Sleep.
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It s weird when I think how long I ve been in America now for, because it feels like, I sometimes think it s just been six months, but it s been about two years.
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And I ve had my Helix mattress for a year and a half.
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How s it holding up?
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4
SPEAKER_01
I love Ron Eden so much.
4
SPEAKER_03
Somebody needs to marry Ron.
4
SPEAKER_03
I hope an armchair he marries Ron.
4
SPEAKER_01
Honestly, when I was leaving his office just then, I was like, do I take over the business?
4
SPEAKER_01
He s like, it s in the family.
4
SPEAKER_01
He s got no one to pass it on to.
4
SPEAKER_01
He just sounded like it was really weighing on him.
4
SPEAKER_04
I feel like he was you.
4
SPEAKER_04
I feel like this was all a trick, a punk.
4
SPEAKER_02
Why do you think that?
4
SPEAKER_04
Exactly.
4
SPEAKER_04
It sounds exactly like Ron.
4
SPEAKER_02
What would lead you to believe that I m Ron?
4
SPEAKER_02
He s beautiful, right?
4
SPEAKER_02
Yes, he is.
4
SPEAKER_01
That voice.
4
SPEAKER_01
Also, 82, he sounds very sharp.
4
SPEAKER_01
He was super sharp.
4
SPEAKER_01
I d walked into so many bail bonds offices and they just laughed me out.
4
SPEAKER_01
They d not talked to me in a million years.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m not dissing you.
4
SPEAKER_01
I just want to know what you do and how your day works.
4
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely not.
4
SPEAKER_01
Ron was so lovely.
4
SPEAKER_01
Well, he s old enough to know who gives a fuck about anything.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think you re right, actually.
4
SPEAKER_01
He doesn t give a fuck.
4
SPEAKER_02
All the stuff we worry about as we get older and older is like, why am I worrying about that?
4
SPEAKER_02
I think you re right.
4
SPEAKER_04
Do you ever get your feelings hurt when people say no to you?
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, absolutely.
4
SPEAKER_01
I don t like it.
4
SPEAKER_01
When someone says no, I feel it s a rejection.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s mean.
4
SPEAKER_01
It is.
4
SPEAKER_01
I feel, do I offend you in some way?
4
SPEAKER_02
How could you take it personal?
4
SPEAKER_02
You re a reporter.
4
SPEAKER_02
People don t want to be on record saying stuff.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, but there s nothing personal.
4
SPEAKER_01
For this podcast though, this is so chill.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, I m just talking about, I ll be like, what s your favorite pizza place?
4
SPEAKER_01
And they re like, no, I don t want to talk to you.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m like, oh man, is that bad talking to me?
4
SPEAKER_01
I ve got a funny voice.
4
SPEAKER_01
Is it amusing for you in some way?
4
SPEAKER_04
Well, I saw this, which this is an Easter egg for an upcoming episode.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh yeah, we went out together.
4
SPEAKER_04
I got to see this in person happen.
4
SPEAKER_01
In action.
4
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, and I felt codependent.
4
SPEAKER_01
You did.
4
SPEAKER_04
Yes, because he would just like stick a mic in someone s face and ask like, what s your favorite Halloween candy?
4
SPEAKER_04
And I was like, oh my God.
4
SPEAKER_02
without explaining anything to them.
4
SPEAKER_01
No.
4
SPEAKER_01
Sometimes I don t, sometimes the microphone s enough.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, we re in LA, podcasters, they re everywhere, aren t they?
4
SPEAKER_01
They get it.
4
SPEAKER_01
But I felt like you were a bit like a beard being there almost.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was.
4
SPEAKER_01
You helped me because I felt less scary approaching people with you.
4
SPEAKER_04
I felt like when he would do that and I could see someone sort of like flinch, I would just be like, ha ha.
4
SPEAKER_04
Like I would like poke my head in.
4
SPEAKER_04
I was like, I like Twix.
4
SPEAKER_02
Oh, you would start.
4
SPEAKER_04
No, after he would say it and they looked really confused, then I would show my small face.
4
SPEAKER_04
They weren t that confused.
4
SPEAKER_02
Oh, you weren t posing as like a willing participant in hopes that they would wanna join.
4
SPEAKER_01
No, just like they were together.
4
SPEAKER_02
Oh, I ll talk to you, excuse me, ma am.
4
SPEAKER_02
And then the ma am would go, no, you excuse me, I was talking to this man from Britain.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think there s a huge difference.
4
SPEAKER_01
If you ve got a six foot two man approaching with a mic, it s like, talk to me.
4
SPEAKER_01
Wide shoulders, strong legs.
4
SPEAKER_01
You might be a bit reticent.
4
SPEAKER_01
A lot of testosterone in the beard.
4
SPEAKER_01
But with Monica there, it just like makes things a bit more chill.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s like, oh, this guy s not Sully, he s got a friend here.
4
SPEAKER_01
You don t need to explain this to me.
4
SPEAKER_02
I ve done 700 episodes with her where she s doing exactly this.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s true.
4
SPEAKER_02
I know exactly what s true.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s kind of true.
4
SPEAKER_02
Disarming.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s really good.
4
SPEAKER_01
It was really good having you there.
4
SPEAKER_04
But it made me feel scared every time you would ask anyone anything, because I think I m more skeptical.
4
SPEAKER_04
So if somebody just stuck a mic in my face, I d be like, no, thank you.
4
SPEAKER_04
I d be that person.
4
SPEAKER_01
The accent does help me a lot in this country.
4
SPEAKER_01
I say I m from New Zealand.
4
SPEAKER_01
My spiel for the show is I m from New Zealand.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m making a podcast about American culture.
4
SPEAKER_01
I ve got a few questions.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that usually makes people be like, OK, whatever.
4
SPEAKER_04
Right, but sometimes you wouldn t do that because you were on the escalator and it would be too quick, you didn t have time.
4
SPEAKER_04
So you would just say, what s your favorite Halloween candy?
4
SPEAKER_02
Have you ever told me about a Halloween candy and the dog ate it?
4
SPEAKER_01
What, excuse me?
4
SPEAKER_01
So the next thing that I became curious about in my little documentary was where bail came from in the first place.
4
SPEAKER_01
Why do we have bail bond?
4
SPEAKER_01
Okay, can I say one thing though?
4
SPEAKER_02
Please.
4
SPEAKER_02
As the always resident, I don t know, American.
4
SPEAKER_02
Skeptical.
4
SPEAKER_02
No, I guess I m always like, I think I m always defending America when I m involved in these.
4
SPEAKER_02
One thing I will say that occurred to me, because I don t like the system.
4
SPEAKER_02
I don t like that poor people can t get out and rich people can t.
4
SPEAKER_02
Obviously that s flawed and I m bummed about that part.
4
SPEAKER_02
When I think about the notion that somebody has to go get the people that aren t showing up for court, and would I rather have that privatized where we re not paying for that, the criminal s paying for that, versus society s paying to go round them up.
4
SPEAKER_02
And that way I kind of like it, because if the bail bondsman didn t go find them, a police force would have to.
4
SPEAKER_02
and we would have to pay for that police force, we d have to pay for the liability that arises from that.
4
SPEAKER_02
So the notion that the criminal ends up bearing the, now granted, I shouldn t say criminal, a lot of people are innocent.
4
SPEAKER_02
But regardless, the innocent people, I think, show up for their court date, by and large.
4
SPEAKER_02
You know?
4
SPEAKER_04
But if, okay, let s say I got arrested, and I paid my bail, my court date s in?
4
SPEAKER_02
September 18th.
4
SPEAKER_04
Oh God, it s a horrible day for the poor day, but yeah.
4
SPEAKER_04
And I don t show up.
4
SPEAKER_04
It s not the bail bondsman who will find me, right?
4
SPEAKER_04
Because that s, I paid the bail.
4
SPEAKER_02
You gotta use the bail bondsman.
4
SPEAKER_02
So let s say your bail was $1,000 and you gave them $100, 10%.
4
SPEAKER_01
No, but why can t I just, I can t just pay the- You could, you could pay your own- You only go to a bail bondsman if you don t have the money, you can t afford it.
4
SPEAKER_04
Right, exactly, so I m saying if I do have the money and I pay the bail, but I still don t show up for court.
4
SPEAKER_02
Then the city has to go around you up.
4
SPEAKER_04
Right, and so taxes are paying for that.
4
SPEAKER_01
For the people who pay their own bond, sure.
4
SPEAKER_04
Right, okay.
4
SPEAKER_01
I guess I d counter it by thinking of those 400,000 people that are sitting in a cell, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
Like that s a cost to the taxpayer.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, big time.
4
SPEAKER_01
So preferably if people could just be
4
SPEAKER_01
let out.
4
SPEAKER_01
Not in the cell so they can t pay, maybe it ll balance out a little bit.
4
SPEAKER_04
But if they re murderers, they have to.
4
SPEAKER_01
Leave the murderers.
4
SPEAKER_01
I want the kidnappers, I want the rapists.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I do too.
4
SPEAKER_02
I want a lot of them.
4
SPEAKER_02
I just don t want drug people.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that s the interesting thing though, like, yes, so many people that can t pay bail, I think a lot of people, or I sort of always assumed it was murderers, but like so many people that
4
SPEAKER_01
are incarcerated, they re not a threat, they re just stupid little things, the dumbest little things.
4
SPEAKER_02
I bet of that 400,000, 100,000 of them are sleeping off at DUI.
4
SPEAKER_02
Totally.
4
SPEAKER_02
Exactly, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_04
If not more, I m sure.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s probably people in there haven t paid for parking or something.
4
SPEAKER_02
But when you do think about a system that makes the criminal pay for their own investigation and arrest, I like that.
4
SPEAKER_02
If you just isolate that one aspect of it, I gotta admit, I actually like that.
4
SPEAKER_02
You go in and fucking rob Macy s at gunpoint, and then you skip your bail, and then I gotta pay to go find you.
4
SPEAKER_02
I d prefer you had to pay for me to go find you.
4
SPEAKER_04
I know, but they already don t have any money.
4
SPEAKER_04
It s like this cycle where they re not gonna have it.
4
SPEAKER_02
Well, they got a good amount of money from the Macy s robbery in this scenario.
4
SPEAKER_02
Oh, they did?
4
SPEAKER_02
They were successful?
4
SPEAKER_02
They were, yes.
4
SPEAKER_02
They ditched the money before they got arrested.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it does have a tendency to keep kicking people who are down continuously until they can never get up again.
4
SPEAKER_00
And if they re innocent, then they re paying for it.
4
SPEAKER_02
And yes, that s the thing as well.
4
SPEAKER_02
But if they re innocent, they re going to go to court.
4
SPEAKER_01
Innocent people aren t skipping their court cases.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, but I mean, the worst thing is innocent people that can t pay the bail and just end up in a cell for an extended period.
4
SPEAKER_02
Well, what sucks is they do have to pay 10% regardless, and that s not refunded.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
Even if they re found innocent, that s gone.
4
SPEAKER_02
You do?
4
SPEAKER_02
Oh yeah, because think about it.
4
SPEAKER_02
What they re doing is they re lending you money at a 10% fixed APR.
4
SPEAKER_02
Ugh.
4
SPEAKER_00
So if you pay your bail with cash, you just get all that back?
4
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
4
SPEAKER_02
The city says it s $1,000 for you to walk and you provide the $1,000.
4
SPEAKER_02
You show up at your court date, you get the thousand back.
4
SPEAKER_02
The bond is their collateral that you re going to return on this date.
4
SPEAKER_02
So you forfeit your collateral if you don t show up, but if you show up, you get it back.
4
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s a $14 billion a year industry.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s big.
4
SPEAKER_02
When we were making hit and run in 2012, we had investors that paid for it.
4
SPEAKER_02
But then one of the producers was like, I m going to bring a new person that wants to start financing movies.
4
SPEAKER_02
I just want to introduce you to them on set.
5
SPEAKER_03
I love this already.
5
SPEAKER_03
And then all of a sudden this woman comes over, several necklaces with diamond encrusted words and names and everything, and she s ready to finance movies.
5
SPEAKER_03
And she owned a bail bondsman.
5
SPEAKER_02
No.
5
SPEAKER_03
Company, all of her money came from bail bonds, bail bondsing.
5
SPEAKER_02
Wow, I kind of like that there s all these women in this.
5
SPEAKER_02
I like that.
5
SPEAKER_03
It is weirdly matriarchal.
5
SPEAKER_03
I ve seen a few docs on this, and there s a lot of women in this scene.
5
SPEAKER_02
Wow, badass.
5
SPEAKER_03
Well, even that guy inherited from his mother.
5
SPEAKER_03
He did his mom started it.
5
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_03
Yeah And look at Beth and dog like Beth s run in the show Sneaky Pete, that s a TV show.
5
SPEAKER_03
She was yeah on bail bond.
5
SPEAKER_03
Oh, yeah
5
SPEAKER_03
So it s very equal opportunity.
5
SPEAKER_03
That part we got to applaud.
5
SPEAKER_02
I like that.
5
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
5
SPEAKER_04
Well, it s still very present here.
5
SPEAKER_04
It s been deemed unlawful in Illinois, Kentucky, Oregon, and Wisconsin.
5
SPEAKER_04
There are no bail bonds.
5
SPEAKER_04
No cash bail outlawed.
5
SPEAKER_04
And it s being talked about, I might be wrong on this, there s been some sort of decision made to take it out in California as well.
5
SPEAKER_02
I m surprised that those specific states, Kentucky, I would assume they would love it.
5
SPEAKER_03
I gotta say one thing though, also to defend Ron, because we love him.
5
SPEAKER_03
I do love Ron, I m conflicted, I love him.
5
SPEAKER_03
Weirdly, I don t think that was a dig at California, I think that was a dig at New York, because you know in New York they decided they weren t going to arrest people who stole things that were under like $30, and people were just going into CVS and fucking just taking everything they wanted.
5
SPEAKER_03
I completely miss that reference.
5
SPEAKER_03
Yes, and they had to lock everything up, and I m with Ron.
5
SPEAKER_03
I don t want you to be able to walk into CVS, grab anything you want that s under 14 bucks, and you can t be arrested for it.
5
SPEAKER_03
He would have been talking about that.
5
SPEAKER_02
Wait, why?
5
SPEAKER_02
He said California.
5
SPEAKER_03
He didn t.
5
SPEAKER_03
He said like other states who have decided they re not gonna arrest people.
5
SPEAKER_03
I think he did.
5
SPEAKER_03
I think he did other states.
5
SPEAKER_03
Did he say California?
5
SPEAKER_03
He did not.
5
SPEAKER_03
I bet a million dollars.
5
SPEAKER_02
We gotta listen.
5
SPEAKER_02
Now we gotta listen.
5
SPEAKER_03
We gotta get a bail bondsman for $100,000.
5
SPEAKER_02
You owe me a million dollars.
5
SPEAKER_03
Well, no, we only have to put down $100,000.
5
SPEAKER_02
Nope, you owe me the full mill, and I don t owe you anything.
5
SPEAKER_03
He just said other states.
5
SPEAKER_04
Okay, I m just gonna go through my script.
5
SPEAKER_04
I m gonna see what he said.
5
SPEAKER_04
He did say California. Yes! I knew it! Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait
5
SPEAKER_02
You owe me a million dollars.
5
SPEAKER_03
You mean I owe you an additional million dollars?
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, you do.
5
SPEAKER_02
You owe me a million dollars for that.
5
SPEAKER_04
Okay.
5
SPEAKER_03
Wow.
5
SPEAKER_04
Okay.
5
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_04
So it is being discussed and it is being fiercely debated.
5
SPEAKER_04
I think COVID set it back.
5
SPEAKER_04
There were a lot of States that were working towards getting rid of cash bail and then COVID happened and there was a bunch of crime and they rethought things and it s now being walked back.
5
SPEAKER_03
It s a very adjacent issue with same-day loans.
5
SPEAKER_03
And in fact, those buildings are always directly next door.
5
SPEAKER_03
They absolutely are.
5
SPEAKER_04
I mean, that s the thing that feels bad about it.
5
SPEAKER_04
It s born out of desperation.
5
SPEAKER_03
You re desperate and you go there and you don t have money.
5
SPEAKER_03
And most of your clients are poor.
5
SPEAKER_03
And you re making $15 billion on poor people.
5
SPEAKER_03
That s rough.
5
SPEAKER_03
It s pretty rough.
5
SPEAKER_03
I don t think you should go into it, Monica.
5
SPEAKER_02
We ll see.
5
SPEAKER_02
Once I have the million dollars from DAX, I ll put that into starting my biz.
5
SPEAKER_04
Okay, the last part of my little journey was looking into the history of where bail bonds came from in the first place, which wasn t America.
5
SPEAKER_04
I was curious where this idea came from, this idea of a bail bondsman.
5
SPEAKER_04
Ron had told me that the notion of a bail bond is something that goes back to the 11th or 12th century in England.
5
SPEAKER_04
The idea was, when someone was charged with an offence, instead of keeping them locked up in a mouldy dungeon, they had put up something of value until a magistrate could come around and have a hearing.
5
SPEAKER_04
Sometimes trials could be years away, so why wait in a dungeon the whole time?
5
SPEAKER_04
But as the system faded out everywhere else, America truly grabbed onto it.
5
SPEAKER_04
The first American bail bond was put up 125 years ago, in 1898.
5
SPEAKER_04
I m back talking to Ali Preston from the Center for American Progress.
5
SPEAKER_00
When this practice was moved to the United States, unlike in the countries it was in before, people were really dispersed around the country.
5
SPEAKER_00
We were expanding through colonization across the United States.
5
SPEAKER_00
So it was much harder to keep track of people.
5
SPEAKER_00
And people didn t have the same financial or family institutions and communities to sort of band together and get money.
5
SPEAKER_00
So it really was just there was a need and an industry came in to fill it.
5
SPEAKER_00
but the history of the industry really goes back and from the start it was always really a predatory industry.
5
SPEAKER_04
Ali, like many Americans, wants to see the practice of having to pay for your freedom done away with entirely.
5
SPEAKER_00
People just don t understand bail enough to really understand its far-reaching impacts and to be able to see the fundamental unfairness in the system
5
SPEAKER_04
The most obvious unfairness is that the cash bail system favours those with money.
5
SPEAKER_04
As in, if you have money, you pay your bail, you go free, great.
5
SPEAKER_04
But if you don t have money, you go to the bail bondsman and suddenly there are fees and payment plans and your house is on the line.
5
SPEAKER_04
You dig your own hole, more and more.
5
SPEAKER_00
under current cash bail systems, the only thing that is the determining factor between release and pretrial detention is money.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so it doesn t matter what resources you have when you re released, if you re safe to be in the community, if you have money, you can pay to get your release.
5
SPEAKER_00
There is a lot of fear surrounding what s going to happen if we don t have bail.
5
SPEAKER_00
But it s important to know that 95% of crime in this country is nonviolent.
5
SPEAKER_00
So most people who go through the system are safe to remain in the community pretrial.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so just sort of changing our understanding of who s involved in the system and what actually makes us safe is really important.
5
SPEAKER_04
I guess the reason so many grip onto the idea of cash bail, and I get it, is that it incentivises people to turn up to court.
5
SPEAKER_04
That with no cash on the line, the criminals will just run for the hills.
5
SPEAKER_04
But the thing is, statistically, it s not really true.
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, there s actually not really evidence that shows that a signing cash bail is effective ensuring that people show up to court.
5
SPEAKER_00
And there s a lot of evidence that shows that you don t need it at all.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so it s really was never meant to be a tool to promote safety.
5
SPEAKER_00
It was really just to ensure you showed up for court.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so many jurisdictions have already implemented reforms that don t require you to pay money upfront.
5
SPEAKER_00
And we still have really high levels of court appearance.
5
SPEAKER_00
And this is really because the idea that people are not showing up to court and it s because people are intentionally trying to not be prosecuted is a myth.
5
SPEAKER_04
So why do some people miss their court appearance?
5
SPEAKER_04
The answer is a lot more boring than you imagine it is.
5
SPEAKER_04
It s not because they re on the run being a fugitive.
5
SPEAKER_04
It s just because people are people.
5
SPEAKER_04
Flawed creatures with lives and drama and problems.
5
SPEAKER_00
Most people who don t show up to court, it s just because they re human.
5
SPEAKER_00
They couldn t get transportation to get there.
5
SPEAKER_00
They didn t have child care or they just simply forgot.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so it s really important that we have a system that acknowledges that people are people and that we re not going to just punish people because they forgot or there were circumstances outside of their control that prevented them from getting to court.
5
SPEAKER_04
Illinois abolished cash bail entirely back in 2021.
5
SPEAKER_04
Kentucky, Oregon and Wisconsin have done away with the use of bail bondsmen.
5
SPEAKER_04
And there s debate going on in other states about what to do.
5
SPEAKER_04
From what I can tell, the different states that have moved away from cash bail have all taken different approaches.
5
SPEAKER_04
It s not a one-glove-fits-all approach.
5
SPEAKER_00
There s often additional levels of accountability and more thorough examinations of each person s individual factors that really determine how can we ensure that if this person is released, we have the best chance of protecting community safety and the best chance of ensuring that they show up to court.
5
SPEAKER_04
My time in Oklahoma is coming to an end, and it s time to go back to LA.
5
SPEAKER_04
I ve decided I want to stop by and say goodbye to Ron the Bailsbondsman, a man who hates LA.
5
SPEAKER_04
I don t love that Ron s job exists, but I really like Ron.
5
SPEAKER_04
And I m just about at his office when I notice a giant building looming next door, with tiny slats for windows.
5
SPEAKER_04
It looked like the worst apartment building I d ever seen.
5
SPEAKER_04
Then I realize Ron s Bailsbonds office is right next to a prison.
5
SPEAKER_04
Perfect.
5
SPEAKER_04
And as I walk by, a young guy emerges, clutching a phone and trailing a charger.
5
SPEAKER_04
And I realize he just got out.
5
SPEAKER_04
What does it feel like getting out?
5
SPEAKER_01
It feels good, good, good.
5
SPEAKER_01
The jail s horrible, I ll let you know that.
5
SPEAKER_01
There s bedbugs everywhere.
5
SPEAKER_01
Honestly, some of the staff, they re good.
5
SPEAKER_01
They re there to help and all this other stuff.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then there s some that are straight assholes that ain t gonna try to help you.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like, I went days without a cover.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I asked them, and they told me straight up, no.
5
SPEAKER_01
Nothing.
5
SPEAKER_01
Nothing.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s just in there freezing.
5
SPEAKER_01
Freezing.
5
SPEAKER_04
He tells me he wants to go to a bar, and so I pull up some bars on my phone and point him in the right direction.
5
SPEAKER_04
I d assumed he d want a drink.
5
SPEAKER_01
The only reason I m looking for the bar is because they have wifi and a place I can charge my phone.
5
SPEAKER_04
I d put this guy in his mid-twenties.
5
SPEAKER_04
He s young and tells me he s ping-ponged in and out of prison a few times now.
5
SPEAKER_01
But I m happy to get out of jail.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
What are your plans now?
6
SPEAKER_00
My plans now is to go back home to Durant.
6
SPEAKER_03
Durant is about a two and a half hour drive away.
6
SPEAKER_03
His dad s coming to pick him up, which is why he needs his phone to call him.
6
SPEAKER_03
He s had a rough time in there, he says.
6
SPEAKER_03
Rough on him, and he was rough on others.
6
SPEAKER_00
I ve been to different jails and stuff, but this jail, it mentally and physically tears you down to where you lose it.
6
SPEAKER_00
A week ago, I lost it.
6
SPEAKER_00
I got in a fight with somebody, got moved to lockup, and it was bad.
6
SPEAKER_00
I was talking to one of the persons that was in the same area I was in.
6
SPEAKER_00
They said they had to cover his face and everything.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I don t remember it.
6
SPEAKER_00
All I know is he hit me and I blacked out.
6
SPEAKER_03
It sounds bad.
6
SPEAKER_03
And I sort of admire him, at least for acknowledging what he did.
6
SPEAKER_00
Before I got arrested to now, all I ve been trying to do is go home.
6
SPEAKER_00
And now that I got a chance to go home, I m going home.
6
SPEAKER_03
He goes on his way, off to the bar to charge his phone and call his dad to pick him up.
6
SPEAKER_03
And I go and knock on the door of Ron Eden s bail bonds office one last time.
6
SPEAKER_03
I ve been thinking about how he got this business from his mom when she was in her 60s, and now he s 82.
6
SPEAKER_03
And he told me he had no one to pass it on to.
6
SPEAKER_03
And frankly, it was stressing me out.
6
SPEAKER_03
He seemed happy enough to see me again, and gave me advice on where to visit in America next.
6
SPEAKER_01
If you go into the Dakotas, you want to go to what s known as the Badlands.
6
SPEAKER_03
We talked for about 30 minutes, and as I said goodbye, I had one final question.
6
SPEAKER_03
And since I saw you last, any luck in finding someone to take over the spot?
6
SPEAKER_03
Ron s gone all quiet, but his eyes have flicked to his colleague who was eating a sandwich last time.
6
SPEAKER_03
Maybe he hasn t told him yet.
6
SPEAKER_03
This news makes me happy.
6
SPEAKER_03
I feel like Ron deserves to retire.
6
SPEAKER_03
He s had a good run at this bail bondsman thing.
6
SPEAKER_03
It seems like a really tough business, for him, and of course his clients who he s worked with for decades.
6
SPEAKER_03
Those paying to secure their freedom while they wait to be found guilty, or not guilty.
6
SPEAKER_03
Those using a system you don t really think about until you re forced to use it, I guess.
6
SPEAKER_03
There s a happy ending for Ron Eden s business.
6
SPEAKER_03
I think he s found someone to take over.
6
SPEAKER_03
A buyer, sounded like.
6
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, his colleague.
6
SPEAKER_03
I think he s going to hand it over to him.
6
SPEAKER_04
Well, we don t know.
6
SPEAKER_04
And in case that sandwich boy is listening, we don t know.
6
SPEAKER_04
And just don t get too excited.
6
SPEAKER_03
Don t get too excited.
6
SPEAKER_03
But he sounded like he had his eyes flicked over discreetly to his colleague.
6
SPEAKER_03
Like, I don t want to speak about it.
6
SPEAKER_03
I don t want to speak about it now.
6
SPEAKER_03
But I think I ve got some ideas.
6
SPEAKER_03
You think the guy eating the sandwich is getting the place?
6
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, the lies are flicking over to him.
6
SPEAKER_03
So yeah, I think that felt really, that felt like closure.
6
SPEAKER_03
That s really sweet.
6
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_03
I love Ron.
6
SPEAKER_03
I m really glad I went back to see him.
6
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, Ron and me, I need to go to the Badlands.
6
SPEAKER_03
We re getting the Dakotas in the Badlands.
6
SPEAKER_04
I liked meeting Ron.
6
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, he was amazing.
6
SPEAKER_03
He did make me think he didn t seem like an asshole.
6
SPEAKER_03
He was filling a hole and he was doing the best that he could in that space.
6
SPEAKER_04
Well, everyone has a justification for everything they do, even if it was something bad.
6
SPEAKER_04
I mean, we ve talked about this before with paparazzi.
6
SPEAKER_04
I mean, obviously I think they re despicable, but I know that they ve created a justification for sure that warrants them doing that.
6
SPEAKER_04
So everyone does that to an extent.
6
SPEAKER_03
I just, he felt like he was really, he kept listing, you know, parents, grandparents.
6
SPEAKER_03
It felt like he did like, he seemed like he at least cared.
6
SPEAKER_03
What you were talking about earlier, Dax, like that they didn t really like give a shit about you when you walked in.
6
SPEAKER_03
I feel like if you walk into Ron s office, he does sort of care.
6
SPEAKER_03
He wants you to get a good outcome.
6
SPEAKER_03
And I think he understands that in a system that isn t great.
6
SPEAKER_02
I think he s someone you would describe as like firm, but fair.
6
SPEAKER_02
He s definitely a law and order man.
6
SPEAKER_02
That was quite clear.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, for sure.
6
SPEAKER_02
He doesn t want this place run like either of the coasts.
6
SPEAKER_02
He hates California.
6
SPEAKER_02
Smoked dope and steel.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, totally.
6
SPEAKER_04
I imagine him to look like an older J.K.
6
SPEAKER_04
Simmons.
6
SPEAKER_03
Oh, okay.
6
SPEAKER_03
That s actually not far off.
6
SPEAKER_03
Really?
6
SPEAKER_03
It s actually not far off.
6
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_03
He was weathered.
6
SPEAKER_03
He had good eyes.
6
SPEAKER_04
Oh.
6
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_03
I loved him.
6
SPEAKER_03
So here s Bail Bonds, America and the Philippines.
6
SPEAKER_03
Unique.
6
SPEAKER_03
That was great.
6
SPEAKER_03
It really was.
6
SPEAKER_03
It is such an interesting, bizarre world.
6
SPEAKER_03
I mean, you know more about this than any of us because you ve been in there and you ve interacted directly in a way.
6
SPEAKER_03
So it was the perfect episode.
6
SPEAKER_03
you to be here.
6
SPEAKER_03
But if you don t think about it, you re never going to walk in there.
6
SPEAKER_03
It s just, it s going on, right?
6
SPEAKER_03
It s the thing that s going on.
6
SPEAKER_03
You don t need it.
6
SPEAKER_03
Who cares?
6
SPEAKER_02
Although I will say what you think it is, it is.
6
SPEAKER_02
When you look at the outside of the Bill Bondsman place, it s just everything you think it is.
6
SPEAKER_02
I think the, yeah, the advertisement matches the product.
6
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, and I think, you know, it s open at three in the morning.
6
SPEAKER_03
I mean, I walked into a few of them at that time in the morning.
6
SPEAKER_02
I think they re busiest then actually.
6
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, no, totally.
6
SPEAKER_03
It s when all the bars get out and people, a few of them said that bars get out, people get into fights and accidents and that s when they pop off.
6
SPEAKER_04
I think in Good Will Hunting, Chucky pays for the bail.
6
SPEAKER_02
Is Chucky?
6
SPEAKER_04
Ben Affleck.
6
SPEAKER_02
Ben, okay.
6
SPEAKER_04
I don t think they have to go to a bail bond.
6
SPEAKER_02
Oh, he s just got, he s flush with it.
6
SPEAKER_02
He s got the cash.
6
SPEAKER_02
Wow.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s a good thing we didn t have to put up any property because we were renting, Bree and I. Oh, God.
6
SPEAKER_04
Would you have done that?
6
SPEAKER_02
Absolutely not.
6
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_02
I almost didn t drive down there because I was like, just sleep it off.
6
SPEAKER_02
They re going to let you out in the morning.
6
SPEAKER_02
But I love this person.
6
SPEAKER_02
And they were scared.
6
SPEAKER_04
Can you just walk into the jail and immediately pay and leave?
6
SPEAKER_04
Like, is there a version where you never have to enter the cell?
6
SPEAKER_02
No, I think you re gonna have to always.
6
SPEAKER_02
You re incarcerated first.
6
SPEAKER_02
You are.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_02
You get booked, they give you the fingerprints, the picture.
6
SPEAKER_03
So today, Monica, don t think about driving drunk.
6
SPEAKER_04
I m not, I don t do it, stop.
6
SPEAKER_02
You don t, I don t think you do.
6
SPEAKER_02
I really don t, I don t want anyone to think that.
6
SPEAKER_02
You don t.
6
SPEAKER_02
I agree.
6
SPEAKER_02
But I also think a few times in your life you ve probably been over the legal limit.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yes, that s true.
6
SPEAKER_02
As I think most people who.
6
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
6
100%.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_04
I mean, what do you think one martini?
6
SPEAKER_02
The martinis are strong.
6
SPEAKER_02
You have to like look up your body weight, and you know, I think food is part of the equation.
6
SPEAKER_02
You know what you should do?
6
SPEAKER_02
Breathalyzers are cheap.
6
SPEAKER_02
You should get one and just see where you re at.
6
SPEAKER_02
I am curious.
6
SPEAKER_02
Like after two glasses of wine.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s a really good idea, just so you know.
6
SPEAKER_04
Right.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I mean, this is, we were so bad.
6
SPEAKER_02
We were such terrible people.
6
SPEAKER_02
But a lot of people have breathalyzers as a, like see who blew the most.
6
SPEAKER_02
Oh, it s a competition.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it s like someone at the bar would have one.
6
SPEAKER_02
Make Mike blow.
6
SPEAKER_02
I bet he s a fucking 1-4.
6
SPEAKER_02
You know, they weren t using him for the reason that you would want to.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s awful.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s very funny.
6
SPEAKER_03
It s horrible.
6
SPEAKER_03
And it s just very... I would never think of that.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s like competition amongst you all.
6
SPEAKER_02
I have buddies who had the breathalyzer on their car and they couldn t start it.
6
SPEAKER_02
You know, the car wouldn t start unless they blew it.
6
SPEAKER_02
And then they d have their neighbor come over and blow it.
6
SPEAKER_02
I mean, it s messy out there.
6
SPEAKER_03
If I ever get behind bars here in America, I like to think I d call you three.
6
SPEAKER_03
I would love to, and I m so close.
6
SPEAKER_02
Before it was a drive from Santa Monica to Hollywood, that was rough.
6
SPEAKER_02
I m worse than six minutes away.
6
SPEAKER_04
What if his jail s in Santa Monica or Venice?
6
SPEAKER_02
He ll have to call a Westside friend.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_02
Or Oklahoma.
6
SPEAKER_02
I d sooner fly to Oklahoma to help him than to drive to Santa Monica to help him.
6
SPEAKER_03
Oh man, all right.
6
SPEAKER_03
Am I more American, less American?
6
SPEAKER_04
More, and you taught us a lot.
6
SPEAKER_02
Love you guys, that was so fun.
6
SPEAKER_04
All right, well, happy America.
6
SPEAKER_02
Happy America.
6
you