1
SPEAKER_02
 The Persian is feeling joy for the happiness of the other person.
1
SPEAKER_00
Is this a polyamory relationship?
1
SPEAKER_00
It's a concept that is... It's like they're with another sexual partner.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yes, but I think the word is bigger than just, you know, contained within the poly community and culture.
1
SPEAKER_02
It is the notion that you want good for the other person even when it doesn't have to do with you.
1
SPEAKER_01
Right.
1
SPEAKER_02
You're proud of them, you admire them, you enjoy their growth, their successes, you know.
1
SPEAKER_00
What about when...
1
SPEAKER_00
 someone says, you know, I'm with this person, they make me happy.
1
SPEAKER_00
What does that happen when you're looking for someone to make you happy in the relationship?
1
SPEAKER_02
Well, the day they don't, you will say they make me unhappy.
1
SPEAKER_02
Or they don't make me happy, but it's they, they do to me, I'm the recipient of what they do.
1
SPEAKER_02
They have the power.
1
SPEAKER_02
They can give, they can withhold.
1
SPEAKER_02
I depend, I crave, I long, I yearn, I respond to them.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And what should we be thinking of instead of this person makes me happy?
1
SPEAKER_00
How should we approach that?
1
SPEAKER_02
We give each other a good foundation from which we can each launch into our respective worlds.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, that's cool.
1
SPEAKER_02
 A home is a foundation with wings.
1
SPEAKER_02
Or I like to think a good relationship is a foundation with wings.
1
SPEAKER_02
So you feel the stability that you need, the security, the safety, the predictability as much as you can, as much as our life allows us.
1
SPEAKER_02
And at the same time you have the wings to go and explore, discover, be curious,
1
SPEAKER_02
 be in the world, sometimes together and sometimes apart.
1
SPEAKER_00
 but maybe one or two or each of the individuals don't accept something fully about the other person.
1
SPEAKER_00
Maybe there's like three things that they really don't like or don't accept or wish they changed.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don't know, I'm just trying to think of something where you're like, I love so much, we have this great connection, we have so much fun and we're growing and building a relationship, but behind their back you're telling your girlfriend or your guy friends, I wish they'd change this, this or this.
1
SPEAKER_00
I don't like this thing, I don't like this thing.
1
SPEAKER_02
That's ambivalence.
1
SPEAKER_00
 What does that mean?
1
SPEAKER_02
Meaning that you have to be able to live with the contradictory thoughts and feelings of what you like and what you don't like.
1
SPEAKER_02
What makes you want to be here and what makes you not want to be here.
1
SPEAKER_00
What happens when we don't accept that though?
1
SPEAKER_00
And we like, you know, hopefully they'll change out of this or grow out of this thing that I don't like about them.
1
SPEAKER_00
What happens?
1
SPEAKER_00
 when we're in that space.
1
SPEAKER_00
We're not fully accepting.
1
SPEAKER_02
That means that when you get married, you're not just making a deal with your partner, you're making a secret deal with yourself that this is gonna change.
1
SPEAKER_02
And then when it doesn't, you get very upset or pissed because your deal with yourself, which you never said out loud, it's a private bargain you do with yourself.
1
SPEAKER_02
And all of us, when we pick someone, make private bargains with ourselves too.
1
SPEAKER_02
And it's often that bargain that is broken more than the one, because the partner never promised you that this would change.
1
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And so it just creates more resentment.
1
SPEAKER_00
When we want something to change, we don't accept them.
1
SPEAKER_02
Expectations are resentment in the make.
1
SPEAKER_02
The more expectations you have, the more things you can be disappointed of afterwards.
1
SPEAKER_02
Especially when they're not articulated.
1
SPEAKER_02
I think what you need to know is what are some of the things, if you are with someone who, if you go back to the erotic connection, if you're with someone with whom you have a very difficult erotic connection,
1
SPEAKER_02
 And you know that this is something that really is important to you.
1
SPEAKER_02
Being seen, being touched, being held, being kissed, being stroked, being made love to is really a language that is very important to you.
1
SPEAKER_02
And you don't want to live without it.
1
SPEAKER_02
Then listen to yourself.
1
SPEAKER_02
If it's not an important part for you,
1
SPEAKER_02
 because that is not the way you express yourself most, then you know that this is not the centerpiece of your relationship.
1
SPEAKER_02
You have other things that you share.
1
SPEAKER_02
If you know that you don't want children, or the reverse, that the other person doesn't want children, don't go in there hoping that they're gonna change your mind, their mind, because that is not fair to you nor to them.
1
SPEAKER_02
If you are with someone who says, I do not wanna marry,
1
SPEAKER_02
 And you do, or if you are with someone who says, I see love plural.
1
SPEAKER_02
I do not see myself just with one partner.
1
SPEAKER_02
And this is clear to you that that's not okay or that you want it differently.
1
SPEAKER_02
Listen to yourself.
1
SPEAKER_02
Those are values that involve life decisions that you don't sit there waiting till they're gonna catch up with you.
1
SPEAKER_00
And what happens when two people's values are not in alignment?
1
SPEAKER_00
 Can they still have a beautiful life story or do you feel like there's always going to be some type of unnecessary struggle?
1
SPEAKER_02
No, I think it depends on the degree to which people can live with what we call a sense of differentiation.
1
SPEAKER_02
Meaning, if I am okay wanting to go to church,
1
SPEAKER_02
 And that's not part of what you do.
1
SPEAKER_02
We come from the same faith or we come from different religions.
1
SPEAKER_02
And one of us wants to adhere to their tradition and wants to participate in the practices of their religion.
1
SPEAKER_02
And it's okay doing it without the other.
1
SPEAKER_02
 doesn't feel that that needs to be shared.
1
SPEAKER_02
Doesn't experience every time they sit in church, I wish you were sitting next to me.
1
SPEAKER_02
Why do I have to come here alone all the time?
1
SPEAKER_00
That.
1
SPEAKER_02
So it's accepting someone's choices.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's accepting that your choice, if you practice it,
1
SPEAKER_02
 you can accept to do it without your partner.
1
SPEAKER_00
So it's you accepting that.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's you accepting that.
1
SPEAKER_02
Of course, the other person.
1
SPEAKER_02
But the other person can often tell you, you go if you like to be there.
1
SPEAKER_02
I don't want to go there on Sunday morning.
1
SPEAKER_02
I have other things to do.
1
SPEAKER_02
Religion is a major one on that.
1
SPEAKER_02
Travel is another one on that.
1
SPEAKER_02
Children, work, et cetera.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's difficult to say to someone, I'll have a child alone.
1
SPEAKER_02
You don't have to participate.
1
SPEAKER_02
 But it is easier to say, I will continue to practice my religion because it is central to me.
1
SPEAKER_02
You don't have to be a part of that.
1
SPEAKER_02
We have other things that we will share.
1
SPEAKER_02
But you need to know to do that and feel OK about it, if all the time.
1
SPEAKER_02
Now, that doesn't mean that on occasion you don't miss and you wish you part of it.
1
SPEAKER_02
There's a great sermon.
1
SPEAKER_02
I so wish you had been there to hear it.
1
SPEAKER_02
Great.
1
SPEAKER_02
 But if it's chronic, and you just feel this hole all the time, and you know from the beginning that it is a unifier for you, and your partner doesn't show curiosity, because you can come from something else and say, I'm interested in this.
1
SPEAKER_02
Let me see what this is.
1
SPEAKER_02
If you want to go back to living in your home country, and your partner has zero intention of leaving where they are, listen to them.
1
SPEAKER_02
 Don't hope.
1
SPEAKER_02
If they tell you, yes, I would like that at some point, then listen carefully if they're saying this to pacify you, if they're saying this to make sure that you don't leave them, or if they truly intend to do this at some time.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And don't hope something's going to change.
1
SPEAKER_00
Don't hope they're going to do something later after you get married or come into a relationship.
1
SPEAKER_02
No, start from the place that it's not going to happen.
1
SPEAKER_02
See how it is for you.
1
SPEAKER_00
Can you accept that?
1
SPEAKER_02
Can you accept that?
1
SPEAKER_02
Then, if things change, all the better.
1
SPEAKER_02
But don't start with the hope that it will be different.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right.
1
SPEAKER_00
And how does jealousy play in relationships?
1
SPEAKER_00
I used to be extremely jealous and insecure.
1
SPEAKER_02
I remember that.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then something switched in me, I don't know, five years ago.
1
SPEAKER_00
 six years ago maybe, somewhere around that time, where I was like, you know what, this does not support me or my relationship at all.
1
SPEAKER_00
This jealous nature or this, you know.
1
SPEAKER_02
That you knew even when you were jealous.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh yeah, I knew, but I couldn't let it go though.
1
SPEAKER_02
Right, so it's not what you said to yourself that changed what you experienced.
1
SPEAKER_00
Something changed, yeah, I don't know exactly what it was, but I remember just being like, I'm tired of this.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'm tired of feeling this way.
1
SPEAKER_02
So what did you change?
1
SPEAKER_02
Not what did you say to yourself.
1
SPEAKER_00
 I think I changed fully accepting the person's decisions and lifestyle and what they were doing and trusting that everything was gonna be okay and not needing to be jealous.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think I was just afraid like, are they talking to some guy?
1
SPEAKER_00
Is there something behind my back that they're doing?
1
SPEAKER_00
I don't know.
1
SPEAKER_00
It was a worry of like an anxiousness, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
And then I was just like, yes.
1
SPEAKER_02
 Part of what accompanies jealousy, you know, jealousy starts at one and a half year old.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's not an early emotion.
1
SPEAKER_02
It needs a sense of self first.
1
SPEAKER_02
It needs the beginning of self-awareness as a baby to be able to experience jealousy.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's not like fear and joy and disgust and sadness.
1
SPEAKER_00
So where does it come from?
1
SPEAKER_02
 Where it comes from and how evolutionary psychology has all kinds of explanations for jealousy, but where it comes from interpersonally is that it requires having a sense of who you are before you begin to experience how you respond to what other people are doing.
1
SPEAKER_02
I want that too.
1
SPEAKER_01
I don't want to lose something.
1
SPEAKER_02
 What changed for you is that you became more confident?
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, you felt less that your sense of self-worth is in the hands of the other person And they turned away from you.
1
SPEAKER_02
That means that you are not enough exactly that you're gonna lose them or that they're gonna leave you that's what she and I'd be like hurt or empty or sad or
1
SPEAKER_00
 pain because of their actions and I think that's 100% I think I didn't feel like I was good enough or something where I was like You know what?
1
SPEAKER_00
It's all gonna be okay, you know if they do something or
1
SPEAKER_02
 But this, it's all gonna be okay, followed in different sense of yourself.
1
SPEAKER_02
Where you were less in a panic, less in the grip of they're gonna abandon me and I'm not good enough.
1
SPEAKER_02
And from that place, you began to see it's okay.
1
SPEAKER_02
Nothing bad is gonna happen to me.
1
SPEAKER_02
That's how we diminish jealousy.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's not how we react to what the other person does.
1
SPEAKER_02
 It's how we feel about ourselves that changes how we react about what the other person does.
1
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it's been an incredible freedom and gift that I received or gave myself, but it took me 30-something years to learn it.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it feels incredible.
1
SPEAKER_00
It feels incredible.
1
SPEAKER_00
 But for years, I struggled with it.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think a lot of people in general, at least guy friends that I knew growing up struggled with it as well, where they didn't feel comfortable or maybe their female partner didn't feel comfortable with them doing certain things without them there or whatever.
1
SPEAKER_00
And now I'm just like at peace of whatever my partner wants to do.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'm like, live your life.
1
SPEAKER_02
Have you ever had a conversation about jealousy with your girlfriend?
1
SPEAKER_02
I've talked about it where I'm like- Because it's highly cultural.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Interesting.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I mean, I've talked about it with her.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'm like, I'm so glad I'm not jealous.
1
SPEAKER_02
Right.
1
SPEAKER_02
Americans think that being jealous diminishes them.
1
SPEAKER_02
They pride themselves when they say, I'm not jealous.
1
SPEAKER_01
Really?
1
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's kind of a thing like, it's not a nice thing to feel.
1
SPEAKER_02
Other cultures see jealousy, it's intrinsic to love.
1
SPEAKER_00
 It's how you love.
1
SPEAKER_02
If you're not jealous.
1
SPEAKER_00
You don't love the person enough.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_02
That's a distortion in the other direction, but it's very cultural jealousy.
1
SPEAKER_02
Jealousy, if you track the magazines in America, is a subject that disappears for decades sometimes and then suddenly reemerges.
1
SPEAKER_02
But it is often seen as a negative emotion.
1
SPEAKER_02
It isn't seen as an emotion that is so simply part and parcel of the experience of love.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Is jealousy then a healthy emotion in a life story?
1
SPEAKER_02
It sometimes can be a perfectly healthy emotion and sometimes it can be very, very challenging and sometimes it can become pathological.
1
SPEAKER_02
It covers a whole range.
1
SPEAKER_00
Where is jealousy a good thing when someone has jealousy?
1
SPEAKER_02
 When is jealousy a good thing?
1
SPEAKER_02
When have you experienced jealousy and you didn't feel like it was debilitating and crippling you?
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, debilitate, I mean, I don't know.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think there might be, I don't know, I mean it was always debilitating for me I think before I learned to process it.
1
SPEAKER_00
 and let it go, because I realized it wasn't supporting my thoughts and my emotions, and I was saying or doing things that wasn't the highest level of love, I would say, or the most conscious way to communicate when those scenarios would happen.
1
SPEAKER_00
 So I just realized it wasn't supporting me, and I didn't feel good when I had that emotion, or those jealous thoughts, in a relationship, let's say.
1
SPEAKER_02
But if you were part of a culture that told you that jealousy is not something you want to get rid of, but it actually signals certain things to you, and it communicates certain aspects of love, you would have had a different experience.
1
SPEAKER_02
Maybe, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
Now, when is it positive?
1
SPEAKER_02
Probably the easiest example for me is if I ask people all over the world, by the way,
1
SPEAKER_02
 When do you find yourself most drawn to your partner?
1
SPEAKER_02
Not sexually attracted, just drawn to.
1
SPEAKER_00
When other people are interested in that more.
1
SPEAKER_02
That's one of them.
1
SPEAKER_02
That is one of the main four.
1
SPEAKER_00
When other people are flirting or giving them attention.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yes, when I see them with other people, when I see other people captivated by them, when I see the magnetism that they have over other people, when I see how others are drawn to them, when they don't belong to me.
1
SPEAKER_02
 Now, if you are jealous in a feeling that is really crippling and painful, then you do not enjoy that.
1
SPEAKER_02
You feel uncertain.
1
SPEAKER_02
You feel insecure.
1
SPEAKER_02
You feel scared.
1
SPEAKER_02
You feel like they could leave you.
1
SPEAKER_02
You realize that maybe, you know, they're not attached to you.
1
SPEAKER_02
 But if you are more grounded and if you feel more secure in your connection to your partner and to yourself, then when you see that experience, you have a tingling of jealousy, but it is a jealousy that actually increases your appreciation for your person.
1
SPEAKER_02
So that's an example of when do people experience jealousy in a way that actually is fueling
1
SPEAKER_00
 Healthy jealousy, right, okay.
1
SPEAKER_02
Maybe it's a different word.
1
SPEAKER_02
I don't call it healthy and unhealthy because I don't think this is a puritanical definition of health.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's just, this is the issue, is that, is it problematic?
1
SPEAKER_00
 or is it additive?
1
SPEAKER_02
It's more than is it healthy or unhealthy.
1
SPEAKER_02
I think healthy and unhealthy doesn't help us in this moment.
1
SPEAKER_00
Is it hurting you or the relationship or is it supporting the relationship?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes, yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
So you thought it was four ways.
1
SPEAKER_00
What's the other three then?
1
SPEAKER_02
So let me ask you, when do you find yourself most drawn?
1
SPEAKER_00
To Martha?
1
SPEAKER_00
I find myself drawn to her, I mean for me, I feel drawn when she
1
SPEAKER_00
 loves and accepts me for who I am.
1
SPEAKER_00
When she's affectionate, when she is sharing appreciation with me and gratitude with me, when she's joyful in her most expressed self, like just pure energy and love and fun and play.
1
SPEAKER_00
 I have a lot of appreciation and admiration for her when she is living her dreams also.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like she's doing what she wants to do fully and I'm like that's inspiring.
1
SPEAKER_00
It draws me to her.
1
SPEAKER_00
What else?
1
SPEAKER_00
 So in integrity with her word draws me to her because I feel more and more connected and grateful and appreciative and safe in the environment, so I Mean sexually so many different ways, I'm drawn to her
1
SPEAKER_02
 But you know, when I say the first four, it's just simply because I've gone around the world asking this question, and I just began to see themes, right?
1
SPEAKER_02
The first one is when I see my partner in their element.
1
SPEAKER_00
Doing their thing.
1
SPEAKER_02
Competent, radiant in their element.
1
SPEAKER_02
It could be on stage, at work, on a horse, on a slope, you know, but it is basically when they are self-sufficient.
1
SPEAKER_02
 And when they are radiant, and they're in their element, and they're passionate about something, and they are alive, and all of those things also mean that I am not needing to be burdened by a certain form of emotional caretaking.
1
SPEAKER_02
They don't need me, that's it.
1
SPEAKER_02
And when they don't need you, you can want them.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Yes, if they're always needing you, how does that affect the relationship?
1
SPEAKER_02
Let's wait a second.
1
SPEAKER_02
So they don't need you in that moment.
1
SPEAKER_02
And that not needing you clears the pathway for desire.
1
SPEAKER_02
It allows you to want.
1
SPEAKER_02
Because if you were needed and you need to take care of them, then you are loving, but you're not necessarily desiring.
1
SPEAKER_02
 And what happens over time when people say this, and the admiration is extremely important here, because I think it's much bigger than respect.
1
SPEAKER_02
Admiration involves a certain idealization, and it means that there is a sense of otherness.
1
SPEAKER_02
She's different, she's other, she's her own thing.
1
SPEAKER_02
And in this space between her and you, between me and the other, lies the erotic élan.
1
SPEAKER_02
And when people ask about sustaining desire in the long haul, this is the place.
1
SPEAKER_00
 in their element, in their own way.
1
SPEAKER_00
Not reliant on each other to be... That's love.
1
SPEAKER_02
Love and desire, they relate and they also conflict.
1
SPEAKER_02
And herein lies the mystery of eroticism.
1
SPEAKER_02
So that's number one, in her element.
1
SPEAKER_02
When she's joyful, when she makes me laugh.
1
SPEAKER_02
Those two, it's like there's a sense of aliveness, of vibrancy, of vitality, of energy, that is erotic.
1
SPEAKER_02
 that is erotic, that's the number two.
1
SPEAKER_02
And usually it means when there is an element of surprise.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Yeah, she's very adventurous.
1
SPEAKER_02
Because it's unsolicited.
1
SPEAKER_02
But you know, sometimes people say when my partner is vulnerable.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I say that is because it's not usually the case.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right, so it's a surprise.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's a surprise.
1
SPEAKER_02
If they were always vulnerable, it would not be on the list of when am I most drawn to my partner.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's because it's different.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's the side of them I don't get to see so often.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's the side of me that they don't get to see that often.
1
SPEAKER_02
So when they accept me fully and I can open up in a different way,
1
SPEAKER_02
 because it's different, it's unusual, it's out of the ordinary.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's number two.
1
SPEAKER_02
Number three is when I see my partner through the eyes of the others.
1
SPEAKER_02
That's the jealousy piece that you described.
1
SPEAKER_00
So when you see others admiring or respecting or attracted to sexually or any of those things.
1
SPEAKER_02
So what does it mean?
1
SPEAKER_02
It means my partner doesn't belong to me.
1
SPEAKER_02
It means that other people can look at them too, can fantasize about them too.
1
SPEAKER_02
I always say your partner doesn't belong to you, they're just on loan with an option to renew.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Right, and every day, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
Exactly.
1
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
1
SPEAKER_02
And the fourth one is when we are apart or when we reunite.
1
SPEAKER_02
So that desire is also rooted in absence and in longing and not just in being there.
1
SPEAKER_00
 How important is creating space in a relationship, whether you're dating or in a marriage, and creating day apart, days apart, weeks apart, and has it ever become too long apart for a relationship to stay growing, if it's months apart or something?
1
SPEAKER_02
 So the first question is how important is distance in a relationship?
1
SPEAKER_02
I will also add something that I learned from the poet David White this week when we had a conversation together, and he talked about the importance of silence in a relationship.
1
SPEAKER_02
Not always having to speak or... Yes, or the importance of being able to be with yourself while being in the presence of the other.
1
SPEAKER_00
What would that look like?
1
SPEAKER_00
 Like reading a book and the person's in the room.
1
SPEAKER_02
Could be that.
1
SPEAKER_02
Could be that you go away for a few weeks because you wanna go do a meditation retreat or a project that you're interested in.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's the notion or the fact that you keep certain things to yourself, but that you stay in dialogue with yourself, and a dialogue that isn't always shared with your partner.
1
SPEAKER_00
When you mean silent with yourself, do you mean like not speaking at all?
1
SPEAKER_00
 for part of this time?
1
SPEAKER_02
Or do you just mean not... Yes, but you're taking it literally.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's literally, but it's also the metaphor of it.
1
SPEAKER_02
So I'll explain the context.
1
SPEAKER_02
Our conversation was good because that's your question about how important is distance.
1
SPEAKER_02
I would say distance is very important in a relationship, but the way I define it is this.
1
SPEAKER_02
Every relationship
1
SPEAKER_02
 Struggles, freedom, and commitment.
1
SPEAKER_02
Togetherness and separateness.
1
SPEAKER_02
Connection and independence.
1
SPEAKER_02
Every relationship.
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SPEAKER_02
 In every relationship there is often one person who is more inclined to the connection and one person who is more inclined for the separateness.
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One person more afraid of losing the other and one person more afraid of losing themselves.
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One person more in touch with the fear of abandonment
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 one person more in touch with the fear of suffocation.
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We all have both, but we organize our relationship in which one of us will take on the role of this duality.
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And it might evolve seasonally too.
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Completely.
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So we need connection and we need distance.
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We need the things that are joint and together and we need the things that are separate.
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The separateness doesn't mean that there is deadness in the relationship.
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 So when you ask how long can we be apart, it depends what you do with the space in between.
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If you keep the space in between alive, we are away, we have been together five, six years, and you have to go do a project, and you're gone for three months.
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But during those three months, you have a whole letter writing experience, where you are communicating in a very different way than the usual everyday communication.
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 Every two days or so, at night, you sit down and you write a letter, not just what you've done, the catch-up of the day, but then you create an aliveness to that space in between that can be even richer than when we are living together and we're standing in the kitchen every night.
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SPEAKER_00
That's interesting.
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That's powerful, yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
 What would you say was the biggest challenge that you faced internally throughout relationships that you had to face yourself?
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 Oh, I think, you know, I met my husband, Jack, when I was 22.
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You're what, you're 35 now?
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Yes.
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I like it.
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And actually 35 years together, yes.
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Really?
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35 years together?
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Married, married.
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Wow, that's amazing.
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Now we're together even more than that.
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Wow, that's powerful.
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You know, but I probably swallowed the romantic ideal
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 Quite a bit as a young girl too.
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Are you gonna meet the right man with this man?
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If you meet the right person, you will never feel alone again.
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You will never feel lonely.
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You will never be sad you in Seriously, you know, whatever you feel you will feel again until Some of it you may feel until you drop dead but but you will if it changes It's not because the magical potion of the other person is going to suddenly sprinkle its dust over you
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 So that was getting rid of some of the myths.
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How long did it take for you internally to let that go or evolve or heal those myths?
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Yeah, I would say the first decade.
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 you know, it's slowly over time you begin to, you know, you begin to realize that I think, you know, he was, I looked up to him, I still look up to him, he's a very smart guy, and I really wouldn't let any idea leave the house.
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 before it was vetted and approved by him.
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SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
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Is this smart?
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Is this good?
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Can I publish this?
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SPEAKER_00
Getting approval.
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Getting approval, you know, from the mentor.
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SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
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SPEAKER_00
That was the first ten years.
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Yeah, no, maybe a little bit less than ten, but certainly five years.
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Okay, interesting.
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I really needed him to
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 Validator everything I would write and to validate and say it's it's good because he had the PhD I don't you know the hell and then finally I was told one day, you know, I have my own things to write Who's gonna help me who's gonna help me
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 And beginning to write without depending on him that much was a major transition.
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Mating in Captivity was written completely on my own.
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Without his approval of every chapter.
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I had an editor that I hired who was phenomenal, but it was no longer, it was not an emotional dependency.
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It was a professional relationship.
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So that was a major transition.
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I think also understanding the difference between equality and equity.
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 What is the difference?
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It's not 50-50.
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The relationship is not 50-50.
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No.
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No relationship is.
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No, it's 100-100, you know, and complementarity.
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There are certain things that I will never do that I rely on him and certain things that he will never do and he relies on me and they balance each other out and there's a fundamental sense of fairness, complementarity, you know,
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 If I want to go do something, it's just go do, enjoy, be the best, you know, this complete generosity.
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And that generosity towards distance or freedom or individuality, this is a very important thing.
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So here's a question for you and for your listeners as well.
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Ask yourself.
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 You can do it in relation to work, you can do it in relation to love.
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To me, that was a very important question.
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I understood early on that I needed freedom.
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No, I'll put it differently.
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I could tolerate the lack of security better than I could tolerate the lack of freedom.
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You needed freedom more than insecurity.
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So I understood early on that I'm going to be self-employed.
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 Meaning I can tolerate not knowing when the next check is gonna come from, but I prefer that than somebody telling me when I can take a vacation.
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SPEAKER_00
And this was back in the 80s, right?
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Yes, yes, this is my 20s, early 20s.
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But then I applied it to relationships.
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Interesting.
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I knew that I need to be with someone to whom I can say, go do your thing.
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And someone who says to me,
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 go do your thing.
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More than someone who does this.
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SPEAKER_00
 Maybe the US, it was different.
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No, but you also need, you know, the same way that I said to you, sexuality changes in a relationship when you have contraception.
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Well, freedom changes in a relationship when you have economic independence for women.
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Interesting.
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Otherwise, you know, if the woman cannot conceive of her life separately from her partner,
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 then what happens?
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At that time primarily male partner but I would say all partner then you cannot talk about freedom because it means you can't leave