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I m David Farrier, a New Zealander accidentally marooned in America, and I want to figure out what makes this country tick.
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I ve been in America for almost three years now, and those years have whizzed by, in part thanks to this podcast which has seen me going on adventures all over this sprawling country.
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The longer I stay here, the more I start to wonder about my future and what I plan to do.
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Back in New Zealand, I have a dad, getting older, still eating tamarillos.
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Ooh, Tamarillos?
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Tamarillos, very nice, yeah.
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And occasionally, occasionally, I miss my tiny nieces roasting me each and every day.
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That red light means I m recording.
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So everything you just said was recorded.
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And now it s going to be broadcast out to millions and millions of people.
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No.
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You don t believe me?
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No, I don t.
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Why don t you believe me?
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I often feel like you don t believe me.
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Do you not find me believable?
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Not really.
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But while I still feel the pull of New Zealand, I also really love it here in America.
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I love the vast open spaces, the chaos, and the variety of people I get to meet each day.
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I guess my point is, do I stay or do I go?
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How long do I keep getting these three-year work visas at about $8,000 a pop?
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Or do I apply for a green card?
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Or do I ever become an American citizen?
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Because if I choose to stay here, citizenship is where it all sort of ultimately leads to, to me becoming 100% American.
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Over the last decade, around 7 million non-Americans became American by getting citizenship, or naturalization as they like to put it, as if it s the natural thing to do.
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Last year, the top 5 countries that saw their citizens becoming American citizens were Mexico, followed by India, the Philippines, the Dominican Republic, and finally Cuba.
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New Zealand didn t even make that list, not by a long shot.
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So, get ready to pledge your allegiance and wrap your naked body in the American flag, because this is the Citizenship Episode.
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Yeah, citizenship.
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Oh, this is fun.
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I m excited for this.
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It s funny.
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It is like a big looming question in the back of my head of making that weird jump.
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And so I thought this episode would be a good way for just me to think out the scenarios and talk to some people that have done it and undone it and kind of feel if it s ever the right thing for me.
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It s scary.
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I feel lucky that I don t have to think about this.
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You re American and it s kind of sorted and America is your place.
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I know me.
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I know that this would hurt my heart to reject my home.
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Yeah.
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And I guess New Zealand s my home.
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And I m like, would it be doing a disservice to my country if suddenly I m taking on citizenship in America?
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If I went back to New Zealand, would they murder me?
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What would my parents think?
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Am I going to get an American accent?
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All that stuff.
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OK, I think we have answers to a couple of those.
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I don t think you re going to get an American accent simply from the citizenship.
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In fact, I know that to be true.
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My dad still has his accent, although it s come down.
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Has it?
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Yeah, but he s been here for a long, long time.
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Yeah.
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And you ve been here, as I ve learned recently, you ve been here for a long, long time.
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That was a baby.
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Let s remind people of that.
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Let s just remind people of what happened.
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So we d done 30 episodes of this show.
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And at some point in, I think it was in a doc.
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I said very confidently.
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You said that I ve been here for a long time.
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I came as a little baby.
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It s like, uh, excuse me.
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I saw you.
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I felt a shift in the room and the energy.
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And I was like, Oh God, why?
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And I didn t know what I d done wrong.
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And then, yeah, I realized that I jumped to a giant assumption that you clearly had come here as a little baby.
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Because I couldn t possibly, I could not possibly with this brown skin, I could not possibly have been born in this country an American.
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It s horrific when your assumptions are brought to light like that, like it s shocking.
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Because I d like to say that wasn t the reason, but underneath it all, maybe that was.
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Do you know what I mean?
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It had to have been.
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And again, you re not bad.
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I mean, you are bad in some ways, but in this way, you re not bad.
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This is though, such a beautiful illustration of people just make all kinds of assumptions.
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Yeah, you must ve arrived here in the last couple of years, you know?
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Imagine if I d done that.
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Monica, she got here three years ago to start this podcast.
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Yeah, but it s funny because I like when there are cracks in the foundation.
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You are extremely liberal.
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Extremely.
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I think you re more than me if we re rating ourselves, which we don t need to do, but
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You re very progressive, you re liberal, but there are some cracks that crinkle up sometimes with you.
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Now there are, like I struggle listening to female vocalists.
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That s the number one for me.
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Yeah, it s something in me is like, uh-oh.
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Uh-huh.
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When you did the, what was it, Family Feud?
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Family Feud.
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Oh, no.
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Oh, no.
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Yeah, no.
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The big wig came up to me.
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Yeah, there was a producer.
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The producer of the whole show, probably the creator of Family Feud.
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And I m like, oh, yeah, what s like, isn t he supposed to be the assistant or something?
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Yeah, he was a woman.
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I just assumed.
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Yep.
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I would like to say, look, yeah, it s wild that stuff when you re confronted by it, because you just realize how much of the stuff as a white man is sort of embedded in there.
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Even when you think you re the most liberal open-minded person of all time, it s like, oh, I have these blind spots that just sit there.
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It s horrifying.
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Yeah, but it s, I mean, I think it s good because it is true that you didn t adopt those thoughts.
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They re just embedded.
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They re there, they re embedded.
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And so you have to be active about fighting it.
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And I think very liberal people often don t do that because they think, well, I m so progressive, I m so liberal, so of course everything I think is right.
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No, this is absolutely, this is like entitlement that we sort of have the righteous, correct path on everything.
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Exactly.
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And there can be some really big blind spots.
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Yeah.
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So I m a citizen.
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I m a born citizen.
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No, it s good because there s a lot of you out there.
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I m an American by birth.
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Okay.
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So the main reason I would think about getting citizenship is because getting a new visa every three years is just so annoying.
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It costs about $5,000.
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It s time you ve got back and forth with the lawyer.
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I know I m.
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super lucky in that I get this entertainment visa.
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So as so many people struggle to desperately get visas here, I m part of this workforce that can get one relatively easily if you have the money.
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And so I realize I m super lucky, but it s also so annoying.
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It s so much admin.
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I have to go back to New Zealand to do it, obviously, to get the little stamp on my passport, all that stuff.
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It s a pain in the ass.
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Citizenship would mean I m just, I m in America.
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I don t need to worry about anything.
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I m not running the risk of getting kicked out ever.
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So.
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As I started poking into this topic, the first thing I did, I went and I met with a New Zealander who has actually done it.
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Wait, real quick, real quick.
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Do you ever feel, because you re very engaged in what s going on, because you re a journalist, so you know what s going on.
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You re here to call out baddies.
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Do you ever feel a little bit odd that you can t vote?
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Oh, it s really unusual.
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Yeah, you feel slightly powerless because I think democracy is pretty great.
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And the idea that we get to have a say in who s leading is pretty great.
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And the thing that s weird for me at the moment is that as someone who lives and works here on a visa, I m paying quite a lot of American tax.
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In California, I feel about half my income goes to the government, and yet I don t get any kind of say in who that government is.
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I find that pretty awful.
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That doesn t feel like the way it should be.
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If you re getting a lot of my money, then I should get a little say in who s getting that money.
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Do you know what I mean?
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Yeah, I do.
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I think in that case, it would be a lot harder to even come here for work, though.
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They would not just let anyone come if they could vote.
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A hundred percent.
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Yeah, there s a lot of barriers in place just in general in society here until you can vote.
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That s a big, giant issue.
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In saying that, I m putting off doing an episode of Flightless Bird.
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about the political system here because it s so confusing to me.
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And whenever I start looking into it, I m like, oh, how could I make this episode interesting in general for people that already know it, but also how do I wrap my head around it?
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Because I look at voting papers, even local councils and that kind of thing.
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And it s so complicated.
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It is so complicated.
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It is.
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Yeah.
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Do you generally vote in all the things or just like the big ones?
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It s a lot of paperwork.
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It is.
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I mean, once you re registered, it s easy.
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For a lot of people, being able to register is a big hurdle.
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Not for me, because I m privileged.
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Yeah, so it s not too bad.
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I also do mail-in often.
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Uh-huh.
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So that s getting ahead of the trend a little bit, that you can do it earlier when you mail in?
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Yeah, and you don t have to go stand in line.
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Like that thing is nice.
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I m so annoyed because some states don t do it.
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Which cuts a lot of people out.
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Exactly.
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It s just immediately people who are working, they can t do it or they can t prioritize it.
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It s a huge way to suppress voters.
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And I find that really horrific.
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I really, I do need to do a flightless bird, find a fun way into talking about politics and voting.
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And even a big arc of the last Caribbean enthusiasm season was Larry David giving water to someone who is in line to vote.
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And apparently in that state, you can t
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give people food or drink while they re in line because I think the idea could bribe them to voting in a certain way.
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And so the whole season, the whole arc of the season is Larry David going on trial for doing this good deed.
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Oh, that s hilarious.
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And so I can only assume that s a thing.
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And there s certain things here that are just really unusual and odd that the idea of giving water to someone is somehow illegal.
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So state by state, and that s a move.
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It s a move to stop people from voting.
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We do not have that here in California.
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In the 2016 election, Kristen and I went and gave donuts out to people in line.
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Oh, amazing.
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I love that.
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We were wearing Hillary shirts.
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Yeah, so you were like being very clear in like what you were doing and who you were supporting.
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Every state is so, so different in how they operate.
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It s wacky though.
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There was a video that I got really captivated by recently where, and we don t, this gets really like dark and weird, so we don t really need to go into it too much, but
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Before they were going to vote on an abortion ban, they had one of the senators on the floor praying and speaking in tongues, which if you re not familiar with evangelical Christianity, just sounds like a lot of gobbledygook and chanting and they re all in a little circle.
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And I was watching it going, yeah, American politics, all so much talk of separation of church and state.
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And yet this is happening.
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It s really weird.
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It s unusual.
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You re right.
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It really is so embedded in the policies and the way people vote, even though technically they re separate.
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Yeah, meant to be slightly separate.
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Anyway, look, New Zealand s got its own issues as well.
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It s not just America, but America is unique.
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And so part of becoming a citizen, yeah, I d get to vote and I d get to swing in with my liberal politics and change the country one vote at a time.
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And make sure there s no more female singers.
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Hey, I ve still been listening to Taylor Swift, by the way.
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You have?
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Folklore.
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I ve had folklore on.
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No lie.
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Do you like it?
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Yeah.
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I do like folklore.
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Oh, I love this.
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Wow.
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You re going to become, slowly but surely.
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Yeah.
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She s a good buzz.
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And I wasn t expecting that.
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So, so thank you for that.
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Oh my gosh.
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You re so welcome.
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All right.
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I m going to play you my little documentary as I figure out whether citizenship is the thing for me or not.
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I ve been on the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services website, USCIS.gov, and apparently I need to spend at least 5 years in America before I get a shot at citizenship.
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So that s at least another 2 years before I get my shot.
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Like all government websites, it s a shitshow, and my eyes start to glaze over.
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So I shut my laptop, get in my car, and drive to my friend Aaron s house for some first-hand information.
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If you recognise that song, it s The Naked and Famous, a New Zealand band that had a pretty good run here in America.
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My buddy Aaron was in that band.
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It s what brought him to America a little over 10 years ago.
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And in America, he stayed.
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I wanted to talk to Aaron because despite his Kiwi accent, he recently became an American citizen.
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I wanted to know how he decided to become full American and what that process looked like.
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So moved over here in 2012 after a couple of years of touring and yeah we got to the end of our first album cycle and thought where do we want to land and LA just seemed like a really nice sort of intermediate place to stop and settle in for a while while we while we figure out life and then 12 years later still here.
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How did it work as a New Zealander who suddenly decided to be in America?
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What visa were you on?
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Were you on a visa?
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Were you here illegally?
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What did you do?
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What was your process?
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It was painful to start with.
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We were on the US P1 visa, which is a yearly visa given to performers and athletes, entertainers.
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Every year you have to renew that visa and every year the question comes up, maybe I won t be allowed back in the country this year.
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So it was a really stressful way of living for, it was a solid five years of doing that.
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I guess I m in a similar sort of position right now.
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My visa lasts a bit longer, it s an O1 entertainment visa which I was lucky enough to get because I do this podcast.
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But it comes with that worry that when it expires, maybe it won t get renewed, and I ll be sent packing to New Zealand.
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Other things flip through my mind too, like what if I get boozed up one night and do some crimes and get deported?
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What then of Flightless Burrard?
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For Aaron, on his series of one-year visas, he knew it was time for the next step.
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He wanted a green card.
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Now usually this involves a lot of paperwork and legal fees, but Aaron got lucky.
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Two of us in the band did the green card lottery and amazingly just got it first time.
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It was the most easy, simple process, easier than any visa or anything.
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Just like put your name down, highest education, country you re from, and then within a few months it was like, you ve been accepted.
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Congratulations, you got a green card.
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The Green Card Lottery was set up in 1990, known officially as the much more dry Diversity Immigrant Visa.
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11 million people like Aaron apply each year from all over the world, and about 50,000 get it.
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Aaron was lucky.
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Having a green card meant he had more stability in America.
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Because he was more American.
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But not all the way American.
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You still don t get to vote, you still don t get to be called for jury duty, or, you know, you don t get to go to war for America.
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The main annoying thing about being a foreigner on a green card in America, and something I hadn t really fully clocked until now, is that you can lose that green card.
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If you leave America for more than six months, immigration can just take it away from you, and you re back to square one.
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So, seven or eight years of working towards it, if I m gone for more than six months, I could be right back to square one again.
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So after getting the green card, Aaron knew it was time for citizenship, which ended up being relatively straightforward.
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Some help from a lawyer, a lot of forms, but easier than getting any of the visas he d applied for over the last decade.
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Too easy to not follow through on.
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I remember talking to the officer and she was like, yeah, our backlog for getting a green card is like one or two years right now, but, oh, you want citizenship?
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That waits only three weeks.
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Maybe no one wants to be a citizen right now.
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I don t know.
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But it was really chill.
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Aaron said the hardest thing was probably just memorising 100 American facts for the official test.
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I guess to become American, you mainly just have to act like you re back at school and memorise some facts you ll never use again.
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So what does that look like?
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Is it like going into the DMV?
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You re on a little computer answering these questions.
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What s that like?
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It s pretty much it.
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You go down to the federal building.
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You have an appointment time.
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You sit down with an officer.
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They ask you a whole lot of questions.
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They pick from that hundred questions, you know, ten or so things to ask you about the country.
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Yeah, you feel like you re kind of in trouble almost.
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It s quite intimidating.
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How many are you allowed to get wrong before you re out the door?
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I think you have to get six out of ten.
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Do you have to, like, do a pledge to the flag or do you have to sort of burn your New Zealand passport?
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What s the step there?
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You go to pledge.
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We all stood outside, had to raise a hand, repeat after me, I pledge allegiance.
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I don t remember the rest of it.
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And then you get your big certificate that says, yeah, certificate of naturalization, I think is the word they use.
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And then that s it.
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A few weeks later, a shiny American passport turned up with his name on it.
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And just like that, my New Zealand friend Aaron became my American friend Aaron.
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The only two changes I ve noticed have been coming back
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into America, you don t have to go in the really, really long line for visitors.
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Jealous.
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Fucking hate that line.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And instead, the officer says to you, welcome home, rather than giving you a look like, what are you doing here?
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Get out of here.
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Aside from that and getting my first jury duty letter in the mail, like within a few months.
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But otherwise, life has just continued exactly the same way, just with the peace of mind of knowing that I m good to be here.
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I found myself thinking about what Aaron s New Zealand parents made of their son becoming an American.
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There s a certain scepticism New Zealanders have about America, and I wonder how that played out.
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You nailed it perfectly.
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It was exactly that.
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It was mum and dad who every year ask, is this the year that you re moving home?
2
SPEAKER_00
They don t respond so nicely when you re like, hey, here s a photo of my US passport.
2
SPEAKER_00
Check it out.
2
SPEAKER_00
By the way, I might have to go to war if they ask me.
2
SPEAKER_03
I d never thought about the war thing when it came to becoming a citizen.
2
SPEAKER_03
The possibility of conscription in some future world war.
2
SPEAKER_03
I hadn t thought about a lot of this stuff.
2
SPEAKER_03
And hearing from Aaron s parents, I wondered what my parents would make of it.
2
SPEAKER_03
Hello David.
2
SPEAKER_03
Hello father, how are you?
2
SPEAKER_03
I m alright, here we are.
2
SPEAKER_02
How are you?
2
SPEAKER_03
Hi mum.
2
SPEAKER_02
Hello!
2
SPEAKER_03
After some small talk, I cut to the chase.
2
SPEAKER_03
I m putting together an episode about people getting their US citizenship.
2
SPEAKER_03
I was wondering what you would think if I ever ended up getting American citizenship and becoming an American, what you d think about that?
2
SPEAKER_02
Well, it would require a bit of time for us to think about that, David.
2
SPEAKER_02
No, I mean, David, I mean, that s a decision you make for yourself.
2
SPEAKER_03
Do you think it would be a good idea or a bad idea?
2
SPEAKER_02
I wouldn t have a clue.
2
SPEAKER_02
I would not have a clue.
2
SPEAKER_02
Nor would I.
2
SPEAKER_03
To be honest, it didn t really sound like my parents cared that much about whether I ever got citizenship or not.
2
SPEAKER_03
All they really wanted to talk about was the electronic aura photo frame I gave them for Christmas.
2
SPEAKER_03
Here s some seamless product integration coming right up.
2
SPEAKER_02
Now the other thing, you know those photos that are on our bench that you put through?
2
SPEAKER_02
Can you make it go faster?
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, I can definitely make the Aura frame speed up a little bit.
2
SPEAKER_03
How about I change it to change every eight minutes?
2
SPEAKER_02
Okay, that would be good.
2
SPEAKER_02
Perfect!
2
SPEAKER_03
How was that?
2
SPEAKER_03
I was really proud of that sponsor integration.
2
SPEAKER_03
I mean, that s a free one for Aura.
2
SPEAKER_03
I don t think they ve been paying for that.
2
SPEAKER_01
I don t either.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I feel like we can t use it.
2
SPEAKER_01
We got to bleep it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Man, that was cute.
2
SPEAKER_01
They don t seem to care.
2
SPEAKER_03
No, they didn t really care.
2
SPEAKER_03
Kudos to my parents.
2
SPEAKER_03
They are always sort of like, Oh, do you want to do that?
2
SPEAKER_03
Okay, that s fine.
2
SPEAKER_03
They never really get excited about anything.
2
SPEAKER_03
They don t get distressed by anything.
2
SPEAKER_03
They re just sort of like, Oh, okay.
2
SPEAKER_01
Do you think once you were pretty vocal about not being religious anymore, they just feel like, you know what, do what you re going to do in this life?
2
SPEAKER_03
I think that s probably when they realized, oh, he s an adult now.
2
SPEAKER_03
He s sort of making his own decisions.
2
SPEAKER_03
And to their credit, they were like, oh, we re not going to pester him forever.
2
SPEAKER_03
He can just go and do his thing, which is really nice.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that is.
2
SPEAKER_03
Because I was trying to get into medical school once upon a time, and when I left that to go to journalism school, I think a lot of parents would be like, oh, God, this is such a letdown.
2
SPEAKER_03
But they again, they were just sort of, their attitude was, oh, OK, journalism school.
2
SPEAKER_03
OK, we re not going to have a rich doctor s son.
2
SPEAKER_03
We re going to have like a poor, scroungy, horrific journalist child.
2
SPEAKER_01
With pink hair.
2
SPEAKER_01
You have pink hair right now.
2
SPEAKER_03
I do.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s going a bit more strawberry blonde now.
2
SPEAKER_03
What they don t tell you when you dye your hair pink is that, or any color, is that the dye washes out.
2
SPEAKER_01
What did you think?
2
SPEAKER_03
I thought when you dye your hair, Monica, I thought the dye adheres to the hair and sticks, but I ve got pink all over my white towels.
2
SPEAKER_03
I ve got pink bedsheets.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s a mess.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s bad.
2
SPEAKER_01
Did you go to a salon?
2
SPEAKER_03
I went to a salon and I got it bleached properly, but it was an organic salon, so maybe their organic hair dye comes out more than regular hair dye?
2
SPEAKER_01
Probably.
2
SPEAKER_01
No, you need those chemicals.
2
SPEAKER_03
I need the chemicals in there.
2
SPEAKER_03
I didn t like the burning sensation with the peroxiding.
2
SPEAKER_03
That felt quite intense.
2
SPEAKER_03
Have you ever had your hair peroxided?
2
SPEAKER_01
No, God, no, no.
2
SPEAKER_01
Can you imagine?
2
SPEAKER_03
Can you imagine if I... I d like to see you with some blue hair or something.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, blonde, Barbie blonde.
2
SPEAKER_03
That would be amazing.
2
SPEAKER_01
No, my hair has been dyed one time.
2
SPEAKER_01
It was for the herbal essence commercial I did as a mermaid, and they just dyed it the same color.
2
SPEAKER_01
It was the same color.
2
SPEAKER_01
It was black.
2
SPEAKER_01
They added a shine.
2
SPEAKER_03
Oh, just slightly shiny and more mermaid-esque black.
2
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
2
SPEAKER_01
But that s the first and last time.
2
SPEAKER_03
Wow.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_03
Well, no, I really like having pink hair.
2
SPEAKER_01
You were tricking everyone because on Instagram you had pink hair filter for a while.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yes, that s how it started.
2
SPEAKER_03
I did a pink hair filter and I liked that people, a few people got very confused and were like, oh my God, your hair s pink.
2
SPEAKER_03
Even though I also had freckles all over my face.
2
SPEAKER_03
And when I turned my head, the filter would glitch.
2
SPEAKER_03
But some people were like, oh wow, it s pink hair.
2
SPEAKER_03
So then I thought, for something fun, why not just make it real and then really trick people, you know?
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, you re such a trickster.
2
SPEAKER_01
They re going to evaluate this for your citizenship.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s something I have been thinking about is the things I ve sort of put out there, the pink hair, everything I ve tweeted and Instagrammed.
2
SPEAKER_03
They go through all of that stuff and I wonder what it would take for them to go, this guy is not American enough.
2
SPEAKER_03
This podcast should do it though.
2
SPEAKER_03
I m making an entire show every week about becoming more American.
2
SPEAKER_03
This has got to help.
2
SPEAKER_01
I assume it would help, but you re right.
2
SPEAKER_01
It gets complicated because if you re outspoken about things that are potentially, whatever, quote, anti-American, will that affect it?
2
SPEAKER_01
God, I don t know.
2
SPEAKER_01
My guess, honestly, is yes.
2
SPEAKER_03
The thing like technically freedom of speech should protect it but then when you think of the people flicking through the application form I even think when I come into America and apply for my visa I have to add my social media so it wants to know my Twitter handle my Instagram handle they re looking for that for a reason.
2
SPEAKER_01
Of course, but I feel very conflicted about this because as an American, I m like, fuck yeah, freedom of speech.
2
SPEAKER_01
Everyone should be able to say what they want.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I think we should be critical of our country.
2
SPEAKER_01
But if someone, not you, obviously, but like if someone was very vocally anti-American saying they hate America,
2
SPEAKER_01
If I was making the decision about who can come in, I might be like, and not in a petty way, in a, well, is this person going to do something here?
2
SPEAKER_01
Is this person a danger?
2
SPEAKER_01
Because then if something happens, you look at the record, it s like, duh.
2
SPEAKER_01
Duh, this person was going to do.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s kind of like, you know, I hate to make this comparison, but you know, the kid in Michigan who brought the gun to school and like killed people, it was very clear he was going to do that.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_03
Is that rare case where the parents are now incarcerated, right?
2
SPEAKER_03
Because all the signs were there and they didn t do anything.
2
SPEAKER_01
They didn t do anything.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s kind of like that, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
Where, well, of course he s going to go do something bad.
2
SPEAKER_01
He s saying he s going to.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, there s that.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I think even on a more simplistic level, so many people want to come to America for a better life.
2
SPEAKER_03
And if there are people desperately wanting to be here and to make themselves a different life, I want those people to get it as opposed to someone who s moaning about how terrible it is.
2
SPEAKER_03
Let some positive people in, you know?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I guess.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s complex.
2
SPEAKER_03
Something Aaron brought up that I hadn t thought of was the idea of being conscripted.
2
SPEAKER_03
And that s not a thing that s happening now, but obviously where I am right now, I could just flee back to New Zealand.
2
SPEAKER_03
If I m a citizen and some world war breaks out, then yeah, I m strapping on a gun or whatever futuristic weapons we have.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I m off to war with you by my side, me and you off to war.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, Dax and Rob.
2
SPEAKER_03
Rob s kids were all off, you know, to battle.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
What if you become a citizen and then America and New Zealand go to war?
2
SPEAKER_01
What would you do?
2
SPEAKER_03
I think Pam and Alistair, my parents, I think then they might have more opinions on things.
2
SPEAKER_01
Would you kill some... Even though you re an American, you might switch sides.
2
SPEAKER_03
Look, I still feel very strongly about New Zealand, and I think I would find it really hard to go to war against New Zealanders.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I think I could be the one, Monica, that could potentially turn on you.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, David!
2
SPEAKER_03
It would be awkward because you re also my friend, so that s tricky, but you re American.
2
SPEAKER_03
But if we re going in to gun down a whole lot of New Zealanders in some futuristic battle, then I m going to struggle to do that.
2
SPEAKER_03
I m sorry.
2
SPEAKER_01
I know.
2
SPEAKER_01
I get it.
2
SPEAKER_03
Just watch out.
2
SPEAKER_03
You might get a little knife in the back from old Davey.
2
SPEAKER_03
Ew!
3
SPEAKER_02
Oh my God, I don t like this.
3
SPEAKER_01
To be fair, I think this isn t something we re going to have to worry about, much like a snake being in the path.
3
SPEAKER_02
I m starting to feel like you ve laid a lot of track over these past 60 episodes.
3
SPEAKER_01
Of turning on you very quickly.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I feel like that idiot who is like, well, no, he s just saying that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Actually, speaking of snakes, because it made it clear that I wouldn t kill a snake for you if it was in front of the path, which you took exception to.
3
SPEAKER_01
I actually saved someone s life last week because there was a big rattlesnake on the path at Griffith Park.
3
SPEAKER_02
Oh, my God.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was just in the middle of the path, literally lying there.
3
SPEAKER_01
There was a couple that had actually quite weird.
3
SPEAKER_01
There are a couple, but they both had headphones in.
3
SPEAKER_01
So they were sort of ignoring each other, which is quite weird when you think about it, but they were marching up and I see the snake there.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I stopped by the snake.
3
SPEAKER_01
Cause I was just like, it s amazing.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s a snake there.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, God, are they going to stop?
3
SPEAKER_01
Are they going to see it?
3
SPEAKER_01
And I ended up having to yell at them.
3
SPEAKER_01
I go, stop.
3
SPEAKER_01
Really dramatically.
3
SPEAKER_02
Oh my God.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because they re about to step on the snake.
3
SPEAKER_02
No.
3
SPEAKER_01
They didn t see it.
3
SPEAKER_01
They weren t thinking about it.
3
SPEAKER_01
They were so engaged, probably listening to Taylor Swift, so engaged in the music.
3
SPEAKER_02
They re probably listening to this podcast.
3
SPEAKER_01
They probably were.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, but they didn t see the snake.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I actually saved a life last week.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I don t like to talk it up too much, but I did save probably two lives because there were two of them heading towards the snake.
3
SPEAKER_01
I yelled and I stopped them.
3
SPEAKER_02
What did they do?
3
SPEAKER_01
They looked shocked.
3
SPEAKER_01
They were amazed.
3
SPEAKER_01
They were very grateful.
3
SPEAKER_01
They said, wow, thank you, sir.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re wonderful.
3
SPEAKER_02
Thank you.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re an angel on earth.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re an angel on earth.
3
SPEAKER_01
We would have been dead without you.
3
SPEAKER_01
Mainly, they were just so shocked.
3
SPEAKER_01
They just couldn t believe that they re about to step on this thing.
3
SPEAKER_02
Okay, so I m proud of you for that.
3
SPEAKER_02
Now, did you just step over the snake?
3
SPEAKER_02
Like, how d you get past it?
3
SPEAKER_02
Did you or did you turn around and go back down?
3
SPEAKER_01
I went round.
3
SPEAKER_01
I sort of did a hop and a jump and sort of went around and it was okay.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m very agile on those tracks, Monica, like a mountain goat.
3
SPEAKER_02
That was a big risk.
3
SPEAKER_02
These rattlesnakes are very quick.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, this was a big one, actually.
3
SPEAKER_01
It was a big one.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I m brave.
3
SPEAKER_01
What can I say?
3
SPEAKER_01
I m a brave guy, so it s okay.
3
SPEAKER_02
Did the couple turn around and go back down?
3
SPEAKER_01
They went up the hill around it a little bit.
3
SPEAKER_01
There was enough in the path where they could kind of get around it without too much risk.
3
SPEAKER_02
Wow, you guys are nuts.
3
SPEAKER_02
I would be running back down the mountain.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, or expecting me to club it to death with a large branch or something.
3
SPEAKER_02
We know you re not doing that.
3
SPEAKER_02
You ve made that clear.
3
SPEAKER_02
You ve made that very clear.
3
SPEAKER_01
Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird.
3
SPEAKER_01
We ll be right back after a word from our sponsors.
3
SPEAKER_01
Support for Flightless Bird comes from Aura Frames.
3
SPEAKER_02
Mother s Day is coming up.
3
SPEAKER_02
Moms love their kids, you guys.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, they do.
3
SPEAKER_02
Or their grandkids.
3
SPEAKER_01
They love the grandkids even more because they can hand them back without caring for them.
3
SPEAKER_02
Right.
3
SPEAKER_02
So if you have small kids, a great idea for your mom is to just load up this Aura Frame with pictures of them.
3
SPEAKER_02
You can consistently update the grandparents and they get to watch the little babies grow up.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s the best.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s really easy to set up as well.
3
SPEAKER_01
It takes about two minutes to set up a frame using the Aura app.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s got free unlimited storage so you can just keep sending new photos and videos through to the frame and you can invite different people to share to the frame so people can all upload their own photos, which is pretty great.
3
SPEAKER_01
And the photos look like real prints.
3
SPEAKER_01
They look like real photos sitting over there.
3
SPEAKER_01
The only way you could ever tell it s digital is if you see the transition and that s kind of cool.
3
SPEAKER_02
Right now, Aura has a great deal for Mother s Day.
3
SPEAKER_02
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3
SPEAKER_02
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3
SPEAKER_02
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3
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Terms and conditions apply.
3
SPEAKER_01
This episode of Flightless Bird is brought to you by Booking.com.
3
SPEAKER_01
Booking.yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Booking.com offers possibilities across the U.S.
3
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3
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3
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3
SPEAKER_02
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3
SPEAKER_01
I actually need to go to some places for the show, and I think I m going to give this a hoon.
3
SPEAKER_01
So this spring, check out Booking.com for your ideal hotel or vacation home, no matter where you go in the US.
3
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Book whoever you want to be on Booking.com.
3
SPEAKER_01
Booking.yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
So something else, when I was thinking about this, I talked to Aaron and I was like, okay, this is a process.
3
SPEAKER_01
Citizenship actually sounds, after you ve been through the visa process, relatively easy.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I know if I want to get citizenship, okay, I can do that.
3
SPEAKER_01
But then I thought to myself, what about the opposite?
3
SPEAKER_01
What about Americans that don t want to be American anymore?
3
SPEAKER_01
What are those people doing?
3
SPEAKER_01
And so this is where we go now.
3
SPEAKER_02
Wow.
3
SPEAKER_01
If it s one thing I ve learnt during the 41 years I ve spent on this rock hurtling through space, it s that everything has an opposite.
3
SPEAKER_01
While one person likes horror movies, another likes a rom-com.
3
SPEAKER_01
While some of us like cats, others love dogs.
3
SPEAKER_01
If you re Monica, you love neither.
3
SPEAKER_01
What good is the warmth of summer without the cold of winter to give it sweetness, said American writer John Steinbeck.
3
SPEAKER_01
So in this episode about non-Americans wanting American citizenship, of course, there s an opposite.
3
SPEAKER_01
Of course, there are Americans who don t want that citizenship.
3
SPEAKER_00
I am no longer a US citizen.
3
SPEAKER_00
There is a long process involved with that.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s Alan, an American who is no longer American.
3
SPEAKER_00
I moved to New Zealand in 2008 during the Bush era.
3
SPEAKER_00
And whenever somebody asks, what s the reason why you moved to New Zealand?
3
SPEAKER_00
The first one is the obvious one that everyone says who comes from the U.S., Lord of the Rings.
3
SPEAKER_00
I had gone on holiday to New Zealand while I was doing my master s and loved it.
3
SPEAKER_00
It was the first time, you know how Americans have this very quintessentially self-focus of greatness, this notion that they grow up in the greatest country in the world?
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, it was the first time I was ever able to directly observe how some other country did something better than where I grew up.
3
SPEAKER_00
And not just one thing, but many things as far as I was concerned.
3
SPEAKER_01
I can feel some Americans getting angry at this, but please remain calm and remember that this life is full of opposites.
3
SPEAKER_01
While Alan left America, I arrived.
3
SPEAKER_01
Remember Steinbeck, what good is the warmth of summer without the cold of winter to give it sweetness?
3
SPEAKER_00
New Zealand was this sanctuary almost in my mind that I needed to get to if I was going to stay sane.
3
SPEAKER_01
Alan came to New Zealand on a school shortage visa.
3
SPEAKER_01
New Zealand needed him, basically.
3
SPEAKER_01
And after being in New Zealand and becoming a permanent resident, he decided he didn t need to be an American anymore.
3
SPEAKER_01
He lived in New Zealand now.
3
SPEAKER_01
And like how I d quizzed Aaron about becoming a US citizen, I wanted to know what the process was for becoming un-American.
3
SPEAKER_01
Surprise, surprise, it s mostly just money.
3
SPEAKER_00
You will be required to pay $2,350 US dollars.
3
SPEAKER_00
You pay that up front regardless of how it goes.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s money just tossed away.
3
SPEAKER_00
It was like the equivalent of $4,000 New Zealand dollars when I paid it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Then you get to go up and play the lottery with the guy who sits behind the desk and listens to your tale of why do you want to renounce your US citizenship?
3
SPEAKER_00
And as you can imagine, with Americans being the real patriotic, wonderful people that they are, to suggest that you wish to renounce your U.S.
3
SPEAKER_00
citizenship is a bit of a slap in the face, or they want to make it seem like that.
3
SPEAKER_00
But my heart rate before and after was so peaked way above where it was supposed to be.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s surreal.
3
SPEAKER_01
I remember a similar feeling when standing in the line at the U.S.
3
SPEAKER_01
Embassy in New Zealand trying to get my U.S.
3
SPEAKER_01
visa.
3
SPEAKER_01
Just the panicked feeling of a big life change, where you live, your identity, being so far out of your control.
3
SPEAKER_01
But Alan was successful.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like New Year s Day versus New Year s Eve.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s no real difference.
3
SPEAKER_00
The grass doesn t turn blue all of a sudden at midnight sort of thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
You don t even get handed the piece of paper that says you are no longer a U.S.
3
SPEAKER_00
citizen at that point.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s two to four months down the track.
3
SPEAKER_00
So how does it feel?
3
SPEAKER_00
It feels ambiguous.
3
SPEAKER_00
But at the back of my head, I m like, OK, I ve done this.
3
SPEAKER_00
I no longer have to worry from this point on about anything that I do having an impact on Uncle Sam finding out about it.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s so strange to feel like you re being spied on or judged, really, in a way by your government.
3
SPEAKER_00
I know that that s commonplace for people from certain parts of the world.
3
SPEAKER_00
But if you grow up in a place that tells you it s the best part of the world and then that s how you feel about it, it s hard to reconcile.
3
SPEAKER_01
All this talk of spying and judging makes Alan sound paranoid.
3
SPEAKER_01
But he s not.
3
SPEAKER_01
America really likes to know what
4
SPEAKER_01
citizens are up to.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that s for one main reason.
4
SPEAKER_01
Again, surprise, surprise, money.
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The US is one of only two countries in the world that taxes everything you do, regardless of what country you did it in.
4
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If you re an American and you leave America, you re still taxed by America.
4
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Even if you re working in New Zealand and getting paid in New Zealand dollars, America taxes you.
4
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The other country Alan mentioned that does this is Eritrea, a country in East Africa.
4
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That s the real amazing thing.
4
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For so long, people like me, I thought, well, what are they going to do?
4
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I live in New Zealand.
4
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I have no intention of ever returning to the U.S.
4
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If I never step foot back on U.S.
4
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soil, what are they going to do to me?
4
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Turns out they have basically grabbed most every other country by the balls, financially speaking, and have made it a requirement that those countries report you to the U.S.
4
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Again, there s a temptation to think he s exaggerating, but he s right.
4
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I know this because it happened to me.
4
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As I spent the last few years in America, and started paying US taxes, I got an email from someone called Factor, who apparently worked at my bank in New Zealand.
4
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Factor sounded like a spam name to me, so I sent a snarky reply, because I m a child, and I threw it in my junk folder.
4
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But this Factor person kept emailing me, and emailing me some more.
4
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And so I googled Factor, and found Factor wasn t a person, but the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act.
4
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Someone tasked with policing this act had noticed I was now living in America, and they were now watching my money back home in New Zealand.
4
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So all of your accounts, anything you have financially, has to be reported through FATCA.
4
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F-A-T-C-A.
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So if FATCA was chasing me and New Zealander earning money in America, of course they d chase one of their own who d left.
4
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It was enacted in 2010 to try to target noncompliance by U.S.
4
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taxpayers using foreign accounts.
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So basically anybody living abroad trying to hide their income or anything that they re doing, really, financially speaking.
4
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So the U.S.
4
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has kind of strong armed the banks around the world in these different countries by saying,
4
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OK, well, we re going to put this into effect in 2014, but we re going to give you a grace period until the 1st of January 2020.
4
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And you don t have to report all of the accounts of any person with American citizenship to us until then.
4
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And so for many of us, we just kind of existed in this sort of state of like, well, not so bad.
4
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What s the big deal?
4
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But the penalty that they make on it is that banks around the world are now on the hook under FATCA for a 30% penalty for every dollar they earn from the U.S.
4
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if they have not properly reported a suspected account held by a U.S.
4
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depositor or do not have a reported Social Security number for that depositor.
4
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So they have skin in the game.
4
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And so a number of banks have started trying to close suspected US citizen accounts because of this, because it s not worth the risk.
4
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With all this in mind, if you re an American renouncing your citizenship, there s one reason you can t give for doing it.
4
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The thing you got to realize is if you renounce your U.S.
4
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citizenship, there is one reason and one reason alone you cannot ever give.
4
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And that is I m renouncing because I don t want to pay U.S.
4
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taxes anymore.
4
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It s illegal to do that.
4
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While working on the story, I spoke to a bunch of people like Alan.
4
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Americans had left for New Zealand and then run into this tax issue.
4
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This is Susie.
4
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There s a thing called the Reed Amendment, which means if they think you left for tax reasons, you can be barred from ever entering the states again.
4
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Let me preface this by saying 90% of my American friends in New Zealand do not care.
4
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They do not file the U.S.
4
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taxes.
4
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They go, la, la, la, la, la.
4
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Even the ones who do file them
4
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don t follow the rules.
4
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No one cares but me.
4
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I care because I m a rule follower, but the compliance of that is I have to file my taxes every year, which costs me between $2,000 and $12,000 US every year to file my US taxes.
4
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Does that sort of chase you around for the rest of your life?
4
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Is there any way you as an American can ever get away from that, despite you never going back to America, you re not making any American money,
4
SPEAKER_03
Nope.
4
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And if we sell our house here in New Zealand, I d have to pay U.S.
4
SPEAKER_03
capital gains.
4
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Susie did end up renouncing her American citizenship.
4
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Not for tax reasons, of course.
4
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No one I talked to for this podcast who d renounced their U.S.
4
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citizenship did it for tax reasons.
4
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What I found interesting about Susie is that she found the emotional process a lot harder than Ellen did.
4
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It was horrific.
4
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I had to look at the flag and read an oath.
4
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It was awful.
4
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I m relatively well-educated, and I had to read this thing, and I could barely understand half the words.
4
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So I d say, herefore to pursuant to section 18, 519, I mean, it was, and I m bawling, and I wasn t allowed to have tissues because it s in the embassy, and they don t, I mean, it was awful.
4
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As Americans, and I m sure you ll know this because you re over there now, you re taught that being American is the best thing in the world, that you are in the land of promise.
4
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The thought of giving that up is so abhorrent to Americans.
4
SPEAKER_03
I still haven t told my family.
4
SPEAKER_03
They have no idea.
4
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So it just kind of was like that nail in the coffin that that part of my life is over.
4
SPEAKER_03
And actually, it s funny, about six months after I renounced, I got a job offer back in the States to run a summer camp that I used to run.
4
SPEAKER_03
And I have no desire to do it.
4
SPEAKER_03
Sometimes I still wake up and I m like, Oh, my God, I m not an American.
4
SPEAKER_03
And like, I feel weird about it.
4
SPEAKER_03
It s also no one has done it.
4
SPEAKER_03
I ve become like this person in New Zealand that I ve had a number of zoom calls with people who are thinking about it.
4
SPEAKER_03
But no one knows anyone who s ever done it because it s so rare.
4
SPEAKER_03
So I m now like the Oracle
4
SPEAKER_01
An oracle, but also a naughty oracle.
4
SPEAKER_01
When she renounced her American citizenship, Susie got added to America s naughty list.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m not kidding.
4
SPEAKER_03
There s also the quarterly register debit.
4
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The quarterly register, it literally was done through name and shame of people who ve chosen to renounce.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I just found that really interesting that America is one of two countries, the other a spot in East Africa that basically tax you even if you leave.
4
SPEAKER_01
So it s just kind of wild to me.
4
SPEAKER_01
Did that surprise you?
4
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Cause I was sort of blown away by it.
4
SPEAKER_01
Imagine Monica, you want to go and live in New Zealand, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
You go and live with my parents or something.
4
SPEAKER_01
You work for some New Zealand company and yet all your New Zealand money is still getting taxed by America.
4
SPEAKER_01
That never ends.
4
SPEAKER_00
It sucks, don t get me wrong.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m more surprised that other countries don t do it than I am that we do.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, America, it s got the infrastructure to do it.
4
SPEAKER_01
When I got that email from FATCA, F-A-T-C-A, and it came from my New Zealand bank, but this division I d never heard of.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was like, Oh my God, America is aware of all my New Zealand stuff now and is asking me questions about it.
4
SPEAKER_01
It was just so unusual.
4
SPEAKER_01
I guess they ve just got the resources.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, definitely.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, the more money a country has, the more resources they can deploy.
4
SPEAKER_00
But even like European countries, I m surprised.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m surprised England doesn t do this.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, just America and Eritrea.
4
SPEAKER_01
Who doesn t police it at all because they don t have the resources to do it.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
4
SPEAKER_00
This section was very interesting to me.
4
SPEAKER_00
I definitely found myself getting slightly defensive during it.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s your American-ness bubbling to the surface.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s my American-ness, but it s actually not.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s the piece that isn t my American-ness that s getting defensive.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s the fact that I have parents who had to become citizens.
4
SPEAKER_00
They renounced
4
SPEAKER_00
their country for this legit land of opportunity.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I know that s a complicated statement and there s a lot there.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s the basics of why I came here.
4
SPEAKER_01
It was for opportunity.
4
SPEAKER_01
I can be as critical as I want, but that s part of the reason I came here.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I am so grateful they did that.
4
SPEAKER_00
I have a lot of reverence for this country because of that.
4
SPEAKER_00
And within three generations, we ve sort of done the thing.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it feels really special to me that that is the case.
4
SPEAKER_00
So it s actually not my American-ness that s causing it.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s my minority-ness.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s the fact that I could have so easily not been American.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I m grateful that I am.
4
SPEAKER_00
I don t know, it almost feels like this weird privilege to like be an American, be who knows how many generations into being an American, and then just be like, this place is bad.
4
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
4
SPEAKER_00
And New Zealand is a fancy, nice country.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yes, it s special.
4
SPEAKER_01
It is a really nice place.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s a nice place.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, earlier, and maybe this isn t true at all, but I feel that part of the reason that the guy you spoke to who got a green card very quick is because he was coming from New Zealand.
4
SPEAKER_00
He wasn t coming from a country where a ton of people are trying to get their green card or it s not
5
SPEAKER_01
It s not flooded.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I know a lot of New Zealanders that have got the green card lottery and that system.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, they do seem to get it more than a lot.
5
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
5
SPEAKER_01
So you were looking at a very specific country and the immigration in and out of there.
5
SPEAKER_01
If you look at other countries, it s going to look so much different.
5
SPEAKER_01
And a lot of people leaving New Zealand, I mean, you said you came for opportunity, but it s not that New Zealand has this insane lack of opportunity.
5
SPEAKER_02
No, there are certainly opportunities in New Zealand as well.
5
SPEAKER_01
So, yeah, I guess I just hear her saying that and I m a little like, I m grateful that this person participated.
5
SPEAKER_01
She sounds awesome.
5
SPEAKER_01
And, you know, these are her life choices.
5
SPEAKER_01
But my knee jerk is a little like, boo hoo, America s so bad you went to New Zealand.
5
SPEAKER_02
So you re like, you re in New Zealand, so you should be just happy you re in this beautiful place kind of thing.
5
SPEAKER_01
Not everyone has the ability to just go to New Zealand, this really lovely, awesome place.
5
SPEAKER_02
Totally.
5
SPEAKER_02
And she s super aware of that as well.
5
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I mean, she s the one that was bawling her eyes out when she was giving up citizenship.
5
SPEAKER_01
But both of them said this.
5
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The reason they felt so emotional is because America does this thing to us where we are told it s the best country in the world.
5
SPEAKER_01
And we are told that.
5
SPEAKER_01
But I feel like that s a lot of blame on an American ethos, when really I think that s just a human instinct, that you are loyal to your home.
5
SPEAKER_02
I guess I ll find out if I do end up getting citizenship and I have to kind of like renounce any of my New Zealandness.
5
SPEAKER_02
I ll be curious if I feel emotional about that because there s like a nationalism to New Zealand.
5
SPEAKER_02
You re proud of coming from New Zealand, but I m pretty sure it s not as strong as it is here.
5
SPEAKER_02
There s certain things about America that I want to push into for the show that I m kind of clocking for the first time.
5
SPEAKER_02
The ways that America does pump its American-ness up, like jets flying over a baseball game or having members of the military come on, singing the national anthem.
5
SPEAKER_02
These things that do just make you feel proud to be a part of a place that we re all part of this big thing.
5
SPEAKER_02
I think it does seep in more than it does in a lot of other countries.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think you re right.
5
SPEAKER_02
But then this tax thing s fascinating because of course no one I talk to renounce their citizenship because of tax.
5
SPEAKER_01
Of course not.
5
SPEAKER_02
Of course, you know, but that s such a unusual thing.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s made me think citizenship might not be the path for me because if I do go back to New Zealand, which is where I have family members, I don t particularly want to be paying taxes to America for the rest of my life, which I would be doing if I was an American citizen.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s like an unusual thing to think about that I didn t know about until I researched this EPI.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I totally get that.
5
SPEAKER_02
Okay, there s one other crazy aspect to this.
5
SPEAKER_02
So much so that I ve done something very unusual and I ve got a part three of this documentary.
5
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
5
SPEAKER_02
There s like another level of what the fuck that kind of got me.
5
SPEAKER_02
So this is it.
5
SPEAKER_02
There was one final thing I discovered while putting this episode together, and to be honest, it sort of freaked me out.
5
SPEAKER_02
There are plenty of examples like Alan and Susie, Americans who d left America and chose to renounce their American citizenship for a variety of reasons, none of them being tax.
5
SPEAKER_02
But there s another, slightly more chaotic pool of Americans also wondering about their US citizenship.
5
SPEAKER_02
This is Alan again, who s become a bit of an expert on this stuff.
5
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There s a category of the people who know that they re U.S.
5
SPEAKER_00
citizens who want to renounce for a variety of reasons.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then there s the other category of people who don t realize that they re U.S.
5
SPEAKER_00
citizens and now suddenly had no idea of all the responsibilities that they have incurred just for the sake of existing.
5
SPEAKER_02
I ended up talking to a few people in this position, people who lived in New Zealand their whole lives, had never set foot in America, who recently realised they re American.
5
SPEAKER_02
That s to say they found out one of their parents was American.
5
SPEAKER_02
Some of them knew this and had never thought about the ramifications, some only recently found out that a parent was American.
5
SPEAKER_02
All of them sounded stressed, one telling me they re struggling to save to pay their New Zealand tax bills, let alone having to think about paying the IRS as well.
5
SPEAKER_02
The people I spoke to had never worked in America, have never been to America, but they ve just realised, maybe by listening to a podcast like this, that they should have been filing their US taxes for the last 30 years.
5
SPEAKER_00
There are a lot of people who don t know that they re American citizens because, well, they ve never been to the U.S.
5
SPEAKER_00
They weren t born in the U.S.
5
SPEAKER_00
Why should they be a U.S.
5
SPEAKER_00
citizen?
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, if your parent is a U.S.
5
SPEAKER_00
citizen, you are a U.S.
5
SPEAKER_00
citizen by birth, regardless of where in the world you were born.
5
SPEAKER_00
And you have the exact same responsibilities as anybody who was born and bred and grew up in the U.S.
5
SPEAKER_00
and shoots guns into the air and likes apple pie.
5
SPEAKER_00
So the fact that you aren t aware that you re a U.S.
5
SPEAKER_00
citizen is like saying to the officer who pulls you over, oh, I wasn t aware that it was illegal to speed through here.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s the craziest thing.
5
SPEAKER_02
This is terrifying to me.
5
SPEAKER_02
It reminds me of a recurring dream I have where I m back in high school and it s exam time and I realize for the entire year I haven t taken the class I needed to.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s a feeling of what I d call surprise panic.
5
SPEAKER_00
except for if you fail your test, you don t get thrown in jail.
5
SPEAKER_02
Jail s an exaggeration, but then tax evasion technically can land people in prison.
5
SPEAKER_02
But one thing s clear, the American government, FATCA, definitely cares.
5
SPEAKER_00
Since COVID, there s trillions of dollars of spending from the U.S.
5
SPEAKER_00
to try to recover from COVID and
5
SPEAKER_00
a variety of other infrastructural initiatives.
5
SPEAKER_00
And that s fine.
5
SPEAKER_00
I get that.
5
SPEAKER_00
But it has to be paid for.
5
SPEAKER_00
And they don t expect to pay for it just from people living in the U.S.
5
SPEAKER_00
So now they have a big push to try to find as much money as they can anywhere else in the world.
5
SPEAKER_00
And that means all the people who have U.S.
5
SPEAKER_00
citizenship living overseas who haven t been paying their taxes.
5
SPEAKER_02
If you re listening to this in New Zealand, or some other country that s not America and panicking right now, the finer details are worth checking.
5
SPEAKER_02
Alan, who s been studying up on this stuff and his journey to become un-American, shared some of them with me.
5
SPEAKER_00
There are different rules about this.
5
SPEAKER_00
So if you re born in the U.S., you obviously are a U.S.
5
SPEAKER_00
citizen.
5
SPEAKER_00
If you re born outside the U.S.
5
SPEAKER_00
to two U.S.
5
SPEAKER_00
citizens, you are a U.S.
5
SPEAKER_00
citizen.
5
SPEAKER_00
If you re born outside the U.S.
5
SPEAKER_00
to one U.S.
5
SPEAKER_00
citizen, you are a U.S.
5
SPEAKER_00
citizen.
5
SPEAKER_00
If you were born on or after the 14th of November in 1986,
5
SPEAKER_00
and the U.S.
5
SPEAKER_00
citizen parent resided in the United States for five years, with two of those five years coming after that U.S.
5
SPEAKER_00
citizen parent s 14th birthday, or the child is born before November 14th, 1986, and the U.S.
5
SPEAKER_00
citizen parent resided... It goes on and on.
5
SPEAKER_02
What defines if you owe the American government money or not?
5
SPEAKER_00
after that U.S.
5
SPEAKER_00
citizen s parent s 14th birthday.
5
SPEAKER_00
When you look at this shit and you re like, it s so arcane.
5
SPEAKER_00
How would you ever know this?
5
SPEAKER_00
Why would you ever expect this?
5
SPEAKER_00
Why would you expect a country, like I said, there s only two countries in the world that do this, that tax worldwide income.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s the United States and Eritrea.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I don t think Eritrea has got the, you know, no offense to any Eritreans out there, but I don t think they have the resources to try to enforce their tax policies the same way that the United States does.
5
SPEAKER_02
What I ve learnt in this episode has made me think a bit more deeply about the journey to US citizenship and what it means long-term.
5
SPEAKER_02
I guess it comes down in part to long-term plans and where you want your tax dollars going.
5
SPEAKER_02
It depends if you want emails from a person called FATCA, who, trust me, emails you a lot about taxes until you reply.
5
SPEAKER_02
There s that famous quote that probably sums this whole thing up, uttered by Benjamin Franklin in 1789, nothing is certain except death and taxes.
5
SPEAKER_02
It seems like an appropriate thing to end on, especially considering something else Alan had told me.
5
SPEAKER_00
If you re a US citizen, by the way, and you die in another country, even if you didn t know you were a US citizen, all of your estate is taxed to the US.
5
SPEAKER_02
I guess part of being an American citizen is always, always giving America your money, no matter where you live, no matter if you re alive or dead.
5
SPEAKER_02
God bless America.
5
SPEAKER_02
They want your taxes.
5
SPEAKER_02
Gotta keep paying your taxes.
5
SPEAKER_01
Taxes are a part of America.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s a part of the system here.
5
SPEAKER_01
It just is.
5
SPEAKER_01
I do think that s a pretty small group of people who don t know that they re American citizens.
5
SPEAKER_02
No, it is small.
5
SPEAKER_02
But just imagine just suddenly realizing it and go, Oh God, I m 30 and I ve been living in New Zealand my whole life.
5
SPEAKER_02
And technically I m meant to be filing for the last 30 years.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s just a funny stress to have.
5
SPEAKER_02
I found it such a crazy concept.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it is.
5
SPEAKER_01
I wonder if there are loopholes or something, if you really looked into it.
5
SPEAKER_02
They re not going to chase you to the ends of the planet.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s probably just becomes difficult if you want to go and live in America or something.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I found this very interesting.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think it s such a fascinating topic.
5
SPEAKER_01
It affects so many people.
5
SPEAKER_01
I spoke for this a little bit.
5
SPEAKER_01
I know what we do here is to talk about a lot of the issues and stuff, but we did not
6
SPEAKER_01
hear from anyone who became a citizen is so grateful for that.
6
SPEAKER_01
And it s changed their life.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I would venture to say, based on the people I know who ve come from other countries who became citizens, that s the majority.
6
SPEAKER_01
The majority of people who come here were dying to come here.
6
SPEAKER_01
They did.
6
SPEAKER_01
It was hard and it was worth it.
6
SPEAKER_00
But you coming here as a little baby.
6
SPEAKER_01
As a little one-year-old baby.
6
SPEAKER_01
That s right.
6
SPEAKER_00
No, you re right, of course.
6
SPEAKER_00
No, there is definitely a whole side of people loving their citizenship and very grateful that they have it.
6
SPEAKER_00
I, as usual, took a slightly unusual angle and found a minority of people who had a very weird time.
6
SPEAKER_01
I m glad we ve dived into that, but it is important to me that we are also sharing this country is good.
6
SPEAKER_01
There s a lot of problems with it.
6
SPEAKER_01
Don t get me wrong, but I do feel lucky to be American.
6
SPEAKER_00
I m the same.
6
SPEAKER_00
I feel, I think we re very similar, conflicted about, and nothing s ever straightforward, but I also feel, I mean, there s a reason I want to live here right now.
6
SPEAKER_00
And that s because I overall really like it here.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I enjoy life here a lot.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I like the people here are so good.
6
SPEAKER_00
I m not saying New Zealand people aren t, but it s just, I really like it here.
6
SPEAKER_01
I bristle a lot.
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SPEAKER_00
I like it when you bristle.
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SPEAKER_01
I do it a lot when people compare, which we do it here.
6
SPEAKER_01
We ve done it here a lot.
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SPEAKER_01
When we are comparing our country with other countries that are very homogenous in the breakdown of type, mainly race.
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SPEAKER_00
So America is such an insane melting pot.
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SPEAKER_00
It is a melting pot.
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SPEAKER_00
It s such a diverse, mad melting pot.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
I love that about this country.
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SPEAKER_01
That is what makes it so special.
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SPEAKER_01
That is what gives it its fire.
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SPEAKER_01
And that is also why we have problems.
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SPEAKER_01
That is why.
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SPEAKER_01
I m happy to take on the problems for the trade-off of diversity.
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SPEAKER_01
When we re always like, oh, Sweden, Sweden.
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SPEAKER_01
Everyone cannot stop talking about these Nordic countries.
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SPEAKER_01
I m like,
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SPEAKER_01
They re all white.
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SPEAKER_01
It s because they re all one thing.
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SPEAKER_01
So there s not going to be that inherent diversity of need, opinion, anything.
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SPEAKER_01
There s a reason we re polarized and we have these issues.
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SPEAKER_01
It is the diversity.
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SPEAKER_01
To me, it s worth it.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and I think that is a cool thing that America has done is it has literally the green card lottery.
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SPEAKER_00
It s the diversity visa and they re giving people from other countries free access to America.
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SPEAKER_00
That s pretty bold and pretty great.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
America.
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SPEAKER_01
America.
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SPEAKER_01
We did become more American today.
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SPEAKER_01
That s true.
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SPEAKER_01
Well, you did and you are stagnant.
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SPEAKER_00
I m not sure what way I m going to go.
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SPEAKER_00
I need to think about taxes and I need to think about being conscripted into the army.
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SPEAKER_00
I need to think about the balance of not having to apply for this bloody visa every three years.
6
SPEAKER_00
Sure.
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SPEAKER_00
But I ll keep you across what I decide.
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SPEAKER_00
And if I have my little citizenship ceremony, I wonder if I ll tell you or if I ll just surprise you with my brand new American passport.
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SPEAKER_00
No, because we want to come watch.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, come along.
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SPEAKER_01
I ll do a little speech.
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SPEAKER_00
It ll be so fun.
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SPEAKER_00
Pledge the allegiance and all that stuff.
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SPEAKER_00
Oh, my God.
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SPEAKER_01
Pledge allegiance.
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SPEAKER_01
I think I can do it.
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SPEAKER_01
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United, wait, I pledge allegiance to the flag
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SPEAKER_01
Of the united states of america to the republic for which it stands one nation under god i m missing something you re getting lots of it wait this is they teach you this at school
6
SPEAKER_01
Oh yeah, every morning we did.
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SPEAKER_01
I think, we ve talked about this maybe, I think it s gone.
6
SPEAKER_01
I really want to know if people are still doing the Pledge of Allegiance.
6
SPEAKER_00
I think some do it, some don t.
6
SPEAKER_00
I think it depends on the state and the school.
6
SPEAKER_00
I m sure a few people out of the episode wrote in and like, my children still do that.
6
SPEAKER_01
Still do it.
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SPEAKER_01
Okay.
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SPEAKER_00
I think it was in California.
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SPEAKER_00
I don t think anyone s doing that.
6
SPEAKER_00
It just seems like there s better things to do than repeating the same speech again every day, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
Learning new like math problem or something.
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SPEAKER_01
And to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice to all.
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SPEAKER_01
I think I kind of did it.
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SPEAKER_01
I agree.
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SPEAKER_01
It s sort of a waste.
6
SPEAKER_01
It does feel super nationalistic when you have a bird s eye view.
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SPEAKER_01
Like, oh my God.
6
SPEAKER_01
And there s also something sort of sweet about everyone doing the same thing at once.
6
SPEAKER_00
Totally.
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SPEAKER_00
Team building.
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SPEAKER_01
It s just community.
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SPEAKER_01
We re all on this team.
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SPEAKER_01
We re all doing this.
6
SPEAKER_00
I do like the idea of you later on today, wandering around the supermarket or whatever, just mumbling that under your breath, like trying to get it right.
6
SPEAKER_01
And to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible.
6
SPEAKER_01
with liberty and justice for all.
6
SPEAKER_01
I m messing it up.
6
SPEAKER_01
God.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s pretty good, Monica.
6
SPEAKER_00
I m convinced.
6
SPEAKER_00
If you weren t laughing, I d be like, you ve nailed it.
6
SPEAKER_00
You re more American in this episode than ever before.
6
SPEAKER_01
Congratulations.
6
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
6
SPEAKER_01
I love that.
6
SPEAKER_01
All right.
6
SPEAKER_01
Bye.
6
SPEAKER_01
Bye.