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Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Anonymous.
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I m Dan Shepard and I m joined by Lily Padman.
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So we ended up breaking up this prompt because these were long.
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First time ever.
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Yeah.
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Which was totally short-sighted on our part because generally we say like, tell us about a time you pooped your pants.
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That s a one event thing.
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There s some details leading up to it.
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What we had underestimated is stalking is about a pattern of behavior.
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So many things happen before you realize you re being stalked.
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So we stupidly underestimated how long these stories would be, but they were great.
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They re great and intense and wow.
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And worthy of two episodes.
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So basically, this is part one of stalking.
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I m inclined to give these warnings now because a lot of people were genuinely distraught when they hear this.
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So there is an animal death in this one.
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So if that s not for you, then just warning that s in this one.
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If you re fine with being terrified for a human, you know, you can continue.
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But yes, stalking is stalking.
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So please enjoy Armchair Anonymous stalking.
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Come and go, good times, take them slow My life, I had them both But one thing, you gotta know, I ma keep on shining
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Wait, I have to record.
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This is a really nice closet.
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It is a very nice closet.
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Very well appointed.
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What did you say?
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Sorry.
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Okay, I can hear you now.
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First of all, sweet Ted Seeger sweatshirt.
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Oh, thank you.
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I love it.
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Thanks.
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Very nice closet.
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So nice.
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I envy it.
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I envy the organization, the space, what you ve done with the place.
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That means a lot to me.
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Where are you at, Madeline?
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I live in Wisconsin.
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Wonderful.
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What s the weather?
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Yeah, I was just gonna say, is it getting gorgeous yet?
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Yeah, it s actually 67 today, which is warm for us.
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And getting green?
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I live out in the woods, so it s very noticeable when everything starts changing.
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Yeah, I think for me, Wisconsin late spring, early summer is the greenest place I ve ever been.
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Really?
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Oh, yeah.
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Well, you ve never been to Iceland.
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Until this, yeah, you re right.
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It might change.
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Keep saying that you have a few more months to keep making fun of me that I haven t been.
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I will.
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Okay.
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Enjoy it.
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That ll be fun.
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So Madeline, this is a stalking prompt and I presume you could either be the stalker or the stocky.
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I guess I didn t anticipate people being the stalker.
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Well, we just interviewed a admitted stalker, Patrick Gagne, so you don t know.
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This was a stalky situation.
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Okay.
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Lay it out for us.
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Okay.
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It was about 2017 in February.
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I remember it was winter specifically.
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My now husband and I had moved into a house about a year prior and in the backyard, it butted up to an elementary school and these like public woods that people could walk through.
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Oh boy, this is kind of my nightmare if I can just say.
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It just seems like so fertile for people to be loitering and hanging and peeping.
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They have a very plausible excuse at all times like, oh, I m taking a walk in the woods.
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Like if someone s standing on your street, staring in your window and not moving.
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Sure.
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Anyway, sorry, I digress.
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Yeah, so one morning we woke up and we just opened our curtains to look outside and we see footprints coming from the woods up to our bedroom window.
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Oh!
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Oh, because it s first floor?
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Yes.
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First floor ranch.
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Our bedroom points right to the backyard.
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Very desirable layout for retirees.
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No stairs.
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Yeah, of course.
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So we thought it was weird, but we didn t think too much of it.
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There s like a lot of kids in our neighborhood, but these footprints were bigger than that.
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People cut through our yard a lot.
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So we were just like, that s kind of weird.
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Doesn t really sit right, but didn t really do anything about it.
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Fast forward to that summer, one of our friends had just moved into our basement and him and my husband went to like a fantasy football party.
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So I was home alone.
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It was probably like 10 p.m.
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I m watching TV in the living room by myself and somebody knocks on the front door.
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And the front door like looks directly into the living room.
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So I get up and I answer it and there s nobody there.
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So I got a little freaked out.
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I was like, it s probably nothing, but I m just going to start getting ready for bed.
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And I head to my bedroom and I had the window open because it was summer now.
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And I m like taking my makeup off.
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And all of a sudden I hear in the landscaping, in the rocks right outside my window, I hear crunching.
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Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
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Yes.
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Oh, boy.
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So now I m really freaked out.
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I grabbed my tweezers, because again, I was like, I think I heard something.
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Because you ve got to pluck any hairs off this.
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Yeah, that was my weapon.
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Well, you could really get someone in the eye.
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You ve got to stab a couple thousand times.
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Well.
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OK.
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But I didn t want to grab a knife.
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I thought I was being paranoid.
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Right.
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I went and hid in the other bathroom, which had no windows.
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So I felt a little safer in there.
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And my first thought was that maybe my husband and his friend were messing with me.
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Like, he just moved in.
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I thought maybe they were trying to scare me.
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So I m hiding in the bathroom and I texted my husband and I said, knock it off or I m calling the cops.
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And he was like, what are you talking about?
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And he called me.
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And in the background, I can hear that he s still at a party.
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So I immediately started crying.
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Yeah.
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They rushed home and they went in the backyard with golf clubs, but they didn t see anybody.
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But again, our grass was long enough that you could see footprints coming from the woods.
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Okay, really quick, just as a family preparedness, the fact that your best weapon was tweezers and they ve got golf clubs, we need at least an aluminum baseball bat in the house or something.
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We re not super prepared.
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You know what I think is also tricky, because is this kind of suburban Wisconsin?
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Yeah, we re in a town of like 60,000, so it s not huge.
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But at that house, we were more in town by the elementary school.
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Here s, I think, what s unique about L.A., and maybe you could say that about New York, I don t know.
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When I was in Michigan, kids were out fucking about all the time.
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So, like, the first thing could have been ding-dong ditch.
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Kids aren t roaming downtown L.A.
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So, like, there s a knock.
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That s not a kid.
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You can rule that out here, but I would, yeah, think it was your husband, then also think, maybe kids are fucking with me.
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Yeah, that was definitely another thought of mine, because we ve had ding dong ditchers before.
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And that s kind of why I was like, don t be too freaked out.
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It might be a kid.
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But that was like the last very obvious thing that we noticed in our yard.
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Fast forward again a couple of months.
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Really quick, is there any talk at that point about getting some ring cams or something?
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, exactly.
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Some security.
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We did eventually, yes.
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Oh, OK.
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OK.
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OK.
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Feels like maybe, OK, I m not going to victim shame.
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That would have prevented some things.
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Don t victim shame.
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So I was working an internship at a desk job at an office here, and I get a phone call at my desk from an unknown number, so I don t answer it, and they leave a voicemail, and the voicemail said, hello Madeline, this is Detective so-and-so, can you call me back?
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I was like, oh my God, who died?
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So I ran out of the office, and I called him back, and he asked me, do you know of a, we re gonna call him Brian Johnson,
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Yeah.
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And apologies to Brian Johnson s.
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Unless that s him or unless another Brian Johnson s a baddie.
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Okay.
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So you know, Brian Johnson, sorry, we re interrupting you so much.
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No, you re good.
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I said, no, I ve never heard of this name before.
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And he said, well, I want you to know that you re not in any danger, but we found a list of names in his wallet and yours was one of them.
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Oh my lord.
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What?
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Oh boy.
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So it turns out that this Brian Johnson had been charged with stalking and sexually assaulting a woman in a parking lot.
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And when he found out that she had pressed charges against him, he ended up taking his own life.
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Oh my lord.
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This is really, whoa, a little heavy.
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We had appropriate expectations with a stalking prompt.
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They re only going to be so happy.
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Well, we don t know.
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We don t know yet.
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You re our first one.
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Maybe there s some happiness.
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Maybe there s more like an 80s rom-com version.
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Yeah, but like,
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Whoa, whoa, whoa.
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It turns out that there was a list of, like, five women, including me.
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We all worked at the same company, and so did this Brian.
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And he was in accounting.
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Oh!
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Brian Johnson from accounting.
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Oh, it makes sense.
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SPEAKER_03
Oh!
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So he had all of our personal information, including our addresses.
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But again, like, it didn t go to trial, because he had already committed suicide.
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This is where it gets really complicated, right?
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What part?
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Well, because if he doesn t kill himself, I go straight to like, this guy s an asshole.
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He needs to get off the streets.
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What a terrible blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
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And then when you hear the suicide part, I can t help, but go like, he had some compulsion to do this.
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He somehow knew it was wrong enough to kill himself.
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He wasn t happy.
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You know what I m saying?
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In the same way that the young person who identified as a pedophile who was seeking help also isn t seeking help.
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No, but you know what I m saying?
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Like they ended their life over this.
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That s why I changed his name, because I believe he still has a family and everything here.
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He probably just didn t want to face those consequences.
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I don t know if you know this detail, but did he disguise himself when he assaulted the co-worker?
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Because the co-worker is going to know you potentially.
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Right.
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I don t think so.
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These were rumors.
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Like, I don t know how true this is, but I heard that she had been working out at the gym and seen him watching her through the window at the gym.
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And I think she knew who he was.
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I hate to say this too, but a lot of these murder shows I ve watched, like most recently, the one that took place up in Northern California, that little island community, is that what it was?
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So many of these you hear, oh, it s the weird fucking guy who like let a bunch of them go.
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American Nightmare.
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Oh, sorry.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, American Nightmare.
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There s so much peeping Tom-ness involved.
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They re like watching.
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It needs to be taken very serious, because that does seem to be like the stepping stones towards something horrendous.
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I think we think there s more just voyeurs than there are.
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They start out that way, but then they act on it eventually.
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I do think it s a stepping stone also.
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Oh, my God.
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Well, thank God you got out unscathed.
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It was definitely weird hearing about that after the fact, because it kind of like validated my feelings of being scared in the past.
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And maybe you should trust your gut and not just think you re being paranoid.
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Like I could have easily called like a non-emergency line and be like, could you come check on me quick?
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I m home alone and I m scared.
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And I didn t because I always think I m overreacting.
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Yeah, what do you think the impulse there is?
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Like, I don t want to be a baby.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I don t want to be a burden.
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SPEAKER_01
I definitely would do a similar thing, I think.
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Like, oh, you just got to get over that.
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That was weird, but whatever.
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SPEAKER_03
I hope none of us can get in the mind of a person like this, but it is so telling that he
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wrote the names down and has them.
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SPEAKER_03
That s part of the compulsion, right?
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Because you know if someone sees that, you ll get caught.
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It s a big outing.
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Anyone with logic would know not to do that, but because it s part of this whole intertwined way of thinking, you make a crazy mistake like that.
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You have to write it down.
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Yeah, why would you?
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I m sure he remembered the five people.
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That s what I m saying.
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It s part of this whole, it s like when the serial killers make the board with the strings,
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Well, they don t, the cops do.
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SPEAKER_03
Oh, first, sometimes the serial killers do that, I think, on one of the movies.
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You re right, you re right.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, thanks.
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Anyway, these things are giveaways, but they don t care.
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The compulsion s so strong.
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SPEAKER_03
Wow.
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SPEAKER_03
Well, thank you for sharing that story.
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I m sorry that that happened.
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And I am happy that you re OK.
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I appreciate it.
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Thank you for having me.
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I love you guys.
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SPEAKER_00
Love Robbie Robb.
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Oh, he just smiled.
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I can see his profile.
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He s smiling.
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Have you seen pictures of Robbie Robb?
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SPEAKER_00
Yes, he s a cutie patootie.
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SPEAKER_01
Oh, he s so cute, isn t he?
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SPEAKER_01
Thank you.
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SPEAKER_00
Oh, also one more thing.
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I love the variety of guests you get.
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I honestly think I started listening to this podcast probably like a year after you guys started just because I wanted to hear the celebrity conversations.
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Now I listen to it daily and the things that I ve learned, it s very exciting.
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SPEAKER_00
So I appreciate you doing that variety.
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SPEAKER_01
That makes me really happy.
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We re inadvertently continuing our education and then hopefully people are along for the ride.
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It s kind of like free college classes on Thursday.
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For real.
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That s amazing.
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All right, Madeline, well, good luck with everything and thanks so much for telling us that story.
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SPEAKER_00
Thank you.
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SPEAKER_00
All right.
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Bye-bye.
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SPEAKER_01
Bye-bye.
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SPEAKER_03
Skewy Liz.
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SPEAKER_01
These are all Liz baddies.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, they are.
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SPEAKER_01
Big name.
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SPEAKER_01
I m gonna call her Glenda.
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SPEAKER_01
That s a good one.
1
SPEAKER_01
We haven t done a Glenda yet.
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SPEAKER_02
Hi.
1
SPEAKER_01
Can I call you Glenda?
1
SPEAKER_02
Of all the names you could have chosen, that s what you see me as.
1
SPEAKER_01
No, no, no.
1
SPEAKER_01
Let s be very clear.
1
SPEAKER_01
Before we called you, I said, OK, she wants a fake name.
1
SPEAKER_01
I m going to go with Glenda.
1
SPEAKER_01
This is not a reaction to your face.
1
SPEAKER_03
OK.
1
SPEAKER_03
Also, Glenda is the beautiful witch.
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SPEAKER_01
Is she?
1
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, Glenda the Beautiful Good Witch from Wizard of Oz.
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SPEAKER_01
Oh, I didn t know the name of the beautiful.
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SPEAKER_03
Oh yeah, she s beautiful.
1
SPEAKER_01
Because if I m being honest, and I looked at your face, what would you say, Monica?
1
SPEAKER_01
Do you have a knee jerk?
1
SPEAKER_01
Melissa.
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SPEAKER_01
Melissa, yeah, that works.
1
SPEAKER_02
Okay, I can be Melissa, that s perfect.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay, great, so Melissa, where are you?
1
SPEAKER_02
I am in the South of Italy.
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SPEAKER_02
Whoa!
1
SPEAKER_01
I wasn t expecting that.
1
SPEAKER_02
That s really exciting.
1
SPEAKER_02
I don t think you guys have ever had a caller from Italy, actually.
1
SPEAKER_01
I think we had one student that was Danish or Scandinavian.
1
SPEAKER_03
Oh, I vaguely remember, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_03
Someone was like studying there or something.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
Are you living there permanently?
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I ve been here for seven years.
1
SPEAKER_02
Wow!
1
SPEAKER_01
Is it a result of this story?
1
SPEAKER_02
No, I m not like in witness protection or anything.
1
SPEAKER_01
I got a temper, how playful I m being with this setup.
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SPEAKER_01
It s hard for me to know.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s perfectly fine.
1
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This is my challenge in these with a prompt, this potentially scary, which is like, we mean, I mean, joyful.
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And then you re like, my whole family was murdered.
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SPEAKER_01
I m like, oh my God.
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SPEAKER_01
Okay.
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SPEAKER_01
I m so sorry.
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SPEAKER_01
I should have been really serious from the get go.
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SPEAKER_01
Anyways, you re in Italy.
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SPEAKER_01
Are you employed?
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SPEAKER_02
Yes, but of course with trying to keep things as anonymous as possible.
1
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But feel free to joke.
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SPEAKER_01
Okay.
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SPEAKER_02
Because really like it s fine.
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But also hence the reason I m not in a closet but rather in front of wardrobe because we don t have closets here.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
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SPEAKER_02
And hence the reason why I don t know if you can tell but there is no sunlight coming in because it s almost 830 at night right now.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh, okay.
1
SPEAKER_01
Now of the American amenities that one gives up when they move to Europe, the thing that I ve noticed is I don t think I ve ever seen a refrigerator in Europe that was as big as the one that s in my motorhome.
1
SPEAKER_01
Fridges tend to be really small too.
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SPEAKER_03
Usually they are.
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SPEAKER_03
Because they don t refrigerate as much as we do.
1
SPEAKER_01
They get more fresh food, right?
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SPEAKER_01
They shop more frequently.
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SPEAKER_03
And they like keep the eggs on the counter and stuff.
1
SPEAKER_02
And here in Italy, specifically in the South, Italian food is the only thing anyone cooks.
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SPEAKER_02
My fridge is very different because, of course, I do cook still food from around the world.
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SPEAKER_02
So sauces, that s not what they have in their refrigerator.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s all either fresh sauce that they made or sauces in the pantry.
1
SPEAKER_02
So the structure of the contents of our refrigerators are miles apart from Americans to Italians.
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean, they only cook Italian food.
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SPEAKER_02
That s it.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s so fascinating.
1
SPEAKER_01
I would have never guessed that that was one of the explanations.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_01
The enormous variety of food we cook here.
1
SPEAKER_02
Salad dressing doesn t exist here.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s half my fridge is salad dressing.
1
SPEAKER_02
You have to go to an international store to get all those things here.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_01
Rob, right now we got to do a refrigerator prompt.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s a joke.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_01
Let s talk stalking.
1
SPEAKER_01
Someone s like, I tuned in for stalking and this became about refrigerators.
1
SPEAKER_02
Okay, so this all started in 2020.
1
SPEAKER_02
I bought a horse here, a lifelong equestrian, and when I bought him, there were multiple other people who had bought horses at the same time.
1
SPEAKER_02
who were very new to the sport and didn t know a lot.
1
SPEAKER_02
So I thought, well, I have all this information.
1
SPEAKER_02
I would love to share it with you.
1
SPEAKER_02
The welfare of the animal.
1
SPEAKER_02
I love that.
1
SPEAKER_02
So I started trying to help everyone and quickly came to the realization that they didn t really care.
1
SPEAKER_02
So there was one person who would bring his horse to the barn, who was their friend, who had a genuine interest in a genuine care for it.
1
SPEAKER_02
Because of that, he and I became pretty good friends, very much a horse based friendship, but still pretty good friends.
1
SPEAKER_01
A horse ship.
1
SPEAKER_02
We had a horse ship.
1
SPEAKER_02
So about two years into our friendship, he started dating another woman who would come to the barn just periodically to ride.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I knew her and he really didn t know her.
1
SPEAKER_02
And when they started dating, I said, I would really suggest that you be careful because I ve known her for a year and
1
SPEAKER_02
She s not really somebody who conducts herself in a way that says, I m a stable person who can control my emotions.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I said, you know, she s kind of possessive and kind of manipulative and just be careful.
1
SPEAKER_02
And he thought, no, no, no, no, she s great.
1
SPEAKER_02
She s wonderful.
1
SPEAKER_01
Could we stereotype really quickly?
1
SPEAKER_01
Is there a subset of people drawn to horses that don t interact well with humans, so they really enjoy that outlet of caring?
1
SPEAKER_01
I feel like a lot of shy people really like horses.
1
SPEAKER_02
There s definitely a community that develops that I do try to stay away from.
1
SPEAKER_02
There s a lot of people who are like, I don t get along with people.
1
SPEAKER_02
I can t get along with people.
1
SPEAKER_02
And they tend toward animals.
1
SPEAKER_02
Dog show people tend to be the same.
1
SPEAKER_02
Cat show people are the extreme of that.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, we hate cats.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay, well, slow down.
1
SPEAKER_01
Slow down.
1
SPEAKER_01
There are a lot of valuable listeners that like cats.
1
SPEAKER_01
No, I hate them.
1
SPEAKER_02
Well, mine is Taylor s cat.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s Meredith and Olivia.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh, Jesus Christ.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_02
Of course.
1
SPEAKER_02
So anyhow, so she started dating him.
1
SPEAKER_02
And as time went on, he started to kind of see the signs that I had warned him about.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I m like trying to keep my mouth shut for the most part until it got to the point where she started to become extremely jealous of me and our friendship.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay, and quickly, let s call her Glenda, because you didn t like Glenda, and she needs a name, so let s just call her Glenda.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh, we can do that.
1
SPEAKER_02
I was going to say Karen.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh.
1
SPEAKER_01
Sure.
1
SPEAKER_03
Karen is already, I feel too on the nose.
1
SPEAKER_03
No, it s just like Karen has already received a lot of heat.
1
SPEAKER_03
That name is a lot of heat.
1
SPEAKER_03
We should give some other names.
1
SPEAKER_02
Let s call her Glenda, even though that is a beautiful good witch.
1
SPEAKER_02
So Glenda starts becoming extremely jealous of me because he is seeking out advice from me for things with his horse.
1
SPEAKER_02
She does not like the fact that we speak to each other because she s under the impression that because they re dating, we should have zero communication whatsoever.
1
SPEAKER_02
regardless of the fact that we ve been friends for two years prior to the two of them dating.
1
SPEAKER_02
She starts telling him, if I see her talk to you, I m going to beat the shit out of her.
1
SPEAKER_02
If I see them at the barn, I just stay away and I leave them alone.
1
SPEAKER_02
Subsequently, I ended up leaving that barn and moving my horse to a different facility that was much better suited for him and away from any dramatic encounters.
1
SPEAKER_02
But I would still go there periodically for certain things.
1
SPEAKER_02
So this jealousy would continue to build and
2
SPEAKER_00
and build and build.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it got to the point where she was so obsessive with him and so controlling of him that he finally, after one year, said, this is over.
2
SPEAKER_00
So the relationship ended.
2
SPEAKER_00
The threats did not.
2
SPEAKER_00
She is continuously sending him text messages.
2
SPEAKER_00
She s showing up to his house.
2
SPEAKER_00
She s saying, I m outside your house.
2
SPEAKER_00
Come and talk to me.
2
SPEAKER_00
She s saying that this is all my fault, that I talked him into it.
2
SPEAKER_00
And there are text messages, there are vocal messages.
2
SPEAKER_00
As you know, in Europe, we love our vocal messages on WhatsApp.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
So she s sending him threatening vocal messages.
2
SPEAKER_00
He s forwarding some of them to me and saying, like, I don t know what to do.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m not sure how to handle this situation.
2
SPEAKER_01
And is she threatening him, you, or herself?
2
SPEAKER_00
All three of us.
2
SPEAKER_00
During the time that they were in a relationship, she would say things like,
2
SPEAKER_00
You re the only thing that makes me happy.
2
SPEAKER_00
You can never leave me.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you leave me, I ll kill myself.
2
SPEAKER_01
This is the nightmare of all nightmares.
2
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
2
SPEAKER_00
And even in the months that he wanted to end the relationship, he was saying, like, I m so scared she s going to do something to herself.
2
SPEAKER_00
I want to end it, but I can t because I don t want that weight on my chest if she does do something.
2
SPEAKER_00
So the threats come in the form of her saying that she s going to come to my house.
2
SPEAKER_00
She s going to beat the shit out of me.
2
SPEAKER_00
She s going to tell everybody that we know that I forced him to leave her.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then she wraps it up by saying to him, I will run you over with my car.
2
SPEAKER_00
I swear on my father that I will kill you.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, Jesus.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is restraining order time.
2
SPEAKER_01
But yeah, how s that work in Italy?
2
SPEAKER_00
It s pretty similar to the state.
2
SPEAKER_00
OK, as these things go on, I say, like, if she wants to come and talk to me, I will have a conversation with her, tell her I will talk to her.
2
SPEAKER_00
She s going to be irrational.
2
SPEAKER_00
I won t.
2
SPEAKER_00
But sure, I will try to put her mind at ease.
2
SPEAKER_00
So that sort of fades away.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now we re into like August, September time frame.
2
SPEAKER_00
The messages and things have pretty much stopped.
2
SPEAKER_00
Here in Italy, we have what s called a parco, which is like a gated neighborhood.
2
SPEAKER_00
So my parco is very small and
2
SPEAKER_00
Just luckily, it s four houses of Americans.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so in your parka, you have this like big, tall fence around the entire perimeter.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then each house has like nine foot spiky fences with gates.
2
SPEAKER_00
So to get in from the outside or to contact someone from the outside, there are buzzers that buzz your house.
2
SPEAKER_00
So the end of October, first one, 430 in the morning, somebody just lays on the buzzer at my house, jump up, run outside.
2
SPEAKER_00
there s nobody there.
2
SPEAKER_00
It starts happening for about a week, buzzing my house two in the morning, four in the morning, ridiculous hours.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then they would bust my neighbors as well.
2
SPEAKER_00
So my neighbors would run out.
2
SPEAKER_00
There d be nobody there.
2
SPEAKER_00
Then on Halloween evening, I m standing in my kitchen and all of a sudden I hear this like explosion and I go out onto the balcony and there s smoke coming up
2
SPEAKER_00
in my yard by my trampoline.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, Oh my God, probably some like stupid kids.
2
SPEAKER_00
Cause Halloween s gotten a bit more popular here.
2
SPEAKER_01
Americanized.
2
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
2
SPEAKER_00
So it appears that someone coming down the road through this explosive over the fence.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I see the smoke coming up, but there s like no damage or nothing.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I just think, okay, stupid kids.
2
SPEAKER_00
So two days later, my son comes upstairs and he says, Hey, the youngest of our two dogs is vomiting.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, okay, okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
She s like a perpetual puppy.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m like, she probably ate snails from outside.
2
SPEAKER_00
He s like, okay, well I put her out on the balcony to make sure that she doesn t puke in the house again.
2
SPEAKER_00
He comes back upstairs.
2
SPEAKER_00
He s like, I think she s cold.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now, this is the beginning of November.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, God.
2
SPEAKER_00
In the south of Italy, it s not cold.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m like, OK, OK, I ll come check on her.
2
SPEAKER_00
I got on stairs.
2
SPEAKER_00
She s just profusely drooling.
2
SPEAKER_00
And when I look out on the balcony, there are piles of vomit and it s just hot dogs.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh.
2
SPEAKER_00
What?
2
SPEAKER_00
And as much as we are American, we do not buy hot dogs.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I immediately think somebody threw hot dogs over the fence and poisoned my dog.
2
SPEAKER_01
course.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s what I would think.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I race off to the emergency vet.
2
SPEAKER_00
They take her in.
2
SPEAKER_00
They re trying to pump her full of meds.
2
SPEAKER_00
They don t know what she s been poisoned with.
2
SPEAKER_00
They end up having to intubate her because she is not able to breathe.
2
SPEAKER_00
And within 10 minutes, she s dead.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, no.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, this was not something we were supposed to laugh and make joke.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is horrible.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, we re gonna have to give a warning.
2
SPEAKER_01
Rob, make a note.
2
SPEAKER_01
We gotta give a warning.
2
SPEAKER_00
You said we were allowed to laugh.
2
SPEAKER_01
Anytime animals die in these episodes, I hear about it in the comments, so we re supposed to warn everyone.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s really bad.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
It gets better or worse depending on how you really wanna look at it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
She s gone.
2
SPEAKER_00
We are devastated.
2
SPEAKER_00
I end up bringing her home to bury her.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m talking to my friends and I m saying, I don t understand.
2
SPEAKER_00
Talking to the police, they said, this sounds like they took out your dog in an attempt to be able to rob you.
2
SPEAKER_00
So be very careful, very diligent.
2
SPEAKER_01
You re not jumping to Glenda at this point.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m not jumping to anyone.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I m saying I have no idea who would do this, who would want to do this.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t have a clue at this point.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m not seeing any connection between these two.
2
SPEAKER_00
So we re very, very careful in the coming days to make sure that everything is locked.
2
SPEAKER_00
Then for three weeks, nothing happens.
2
SPEAKER_00
three weeks to the day after our dog was poisoned and killed.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m lying in bed and I m falling asleep and I m listening to a podcast as I m falling asleep.
2
SPEAKER_00
It was the yearbook, the yearbook episodes.
2
SPEAKER_00
So as I m falling asleep, I have my phone in my hand still.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I get this enormous thud into my chest at the same time that I see a big flash of light outside of my glass doors of my bedroom and the loudest explosion that I could have imagined.
2
SPEAKER_00
And when I look outside, there is this mushroom cloud that shoots up past my third story bedroom, past my terrace, which is four stories high.
2
SPEAKER_00
Whoa!
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like if you ve ever been near when like a fighter jet flies by and you get the sound barrier when they break the sound barrier and it just hits you in the chest.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s what it was like.
2
SPEAKER_00
I called the police.
2
SPEAKER_00
The police come.
2
SPEAKER_00
They re like,
2
SPEAKER_00
There s just a bunch of paper shrapnel.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes, we can see exactly where it blew up.
2
SPEAKER_00
Your driveway is dented.
2
SPEAKER_00
But do you know who could have done this?
2
SPEAKER_00
And then they say, this seems really personal.
2
SPEAKER_00
This doesn t seem like someone is trying to break into your house because they re just scaring you at this point.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_00
They said there s not really much we can do about it.
2
SPEAKER_00
I am terrified, of course.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I m talking to my friends about it.
2
SPEAKER_00
and my friend that I know from the barn, we call him Jake.
2
SPEAKER_00
When my dog died and when this happened, he s being so sweet.
2
SPEAKER_00
He s like, whatever you need, let me help you.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I end up going to the police and I end up filing a police report.
2
SPEAKER_00
So all of this is documented.
2
SPEAKER_00
And when I m there, they say, has anyone threatened you?
2
SPEAKER_00
And I say, well, there is this one woman, Glenda, and it s my friend, Jake s ex-girlfriend.
2
SPEAKER_00
And
2
SPEAKER_00
These are the things that she said and here have been all the problems.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so they say, OK, we want to talk to him.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I call him and he comes in and he gives a statement and he s resistant.
2
SPEAKER_00
He s like, I don t really want to be a part of this.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t think that she did this.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes, she s crazy, but I don t think she s violent.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I m thinking, well, who else could it be?
2
SPEAKER_00
So I filed a police report.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then within a couple of days,
2
SPEAKER_00
Jake and I start receiving calls from a blocked number at all hours of the day and the night.
2
SPEAKER_00
And if either of us answer, there s never anybody on the other end of the phone.
2
SPEAKER_00
Most of the time I m not answering, but they re calling it two, three, four or five in the morning and all throughout the day.
2
SPEAKER_00
I end up going to get my nails done and I had gotten two calls.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the girl who does my nails, obviously she knows the story because, you know, she s my nail girl.
2
SPEAKER_00
And she says, you know, there s an app you can download that if you get the phone call and you refuse the phone call, the app will tell you the full phone number of who it was.
2
SPEAKER_00
And if that person is in your phone, it ll show up with the name.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I download the app.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I wait two days and I m getting ready in the morning.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m getting ready to go to the barn.
2
SPEAKER_00
My phone rings and it says private call and I immediately start shaking.
2
SPEAKER_00
And when Jake and I have had the conversations about these phone calls, we ve kind of gone back and forth between who could be doing this.
2
SPEAKER_00
But ultimately it makes the most sense that the person who threw the explosives, the person who poisoned my dog.
2
SPEAKER_00
The person who is ringing the bells, it s all probably the same person.
2
SPEAKER_00
So now that I have the potential to know who this is, I am just like shaking.
2
SPEAKER_00
So my phone is ringing.
2
SPEAKER_00
I refuse to call and I have Glenda s phone number saved in my phone.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I refresh the app and it says anonymous call from Jake.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh my God.
2
SPEAKER_01
What a twist!
2
SPEAKER_01
What a twist!
2
SPEAKER_01
No!
2
SPEAKER_01
No!
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes!
2
SPEAKER_00
I have chills.
3
SPEAKER_00
I have chills again right now.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Ew!
3
SPEAKER_00
What the fuck?
3
SPEAKER_00
Never in my life have I been so out of control of my own body.
3
SPEAKER_02
Oh my god.
3
SPEAKER_00
And my phone rings again and it s a private number and I wait for it to ring twice and I refuse to call and I go back to the app.
3
SPEAKER_00
Anonymous call from
3
SPEAKER_00
jink and I just lose it.
3
SPEAKER_00
I just start crying because this is someone who I have been very close to for the past three and a half years.
3
SPEAKER_00
I know his family.
3
SPEAKER_00
I ve been to his home.
3
SPEAKER_00
I ve helped him hundreds of hours with his horse.
3
SPEAKER_00
We ve spent an enormous amount of time together.
3
SPEAKER_00
And through this entire process of all these things happening,
3
SPEAKER_02
He s consoling you.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
This is very twisted.
3
SPEAKER_00
When I got a security camera here, I showed him the footage on my phone and was like, look, this is amazing.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s so clear.
3
SPEAKER_00
This is everything I can see.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
So you got all the intel.
3
SPEAKER_00
I call a friend of mine and I am crying so hard.
3
SPEAKER_00
I can hardly tell her what s happening.
3
SPEAKER_00
And while we re on the phone, I get another call, private number.
3
SPEAKER_00
do the same thing, go to the app, but this time it says Jake s work phone.
3
SPEAKER_00
He has a cell that was issued to him for his job.
3
SPEAKER_00
Wait, sorry.
3
SPEAKER_00
So you said that you and him are receiving private calls.
3
SPEAKER_00
So was he just saying, I m getting, I m getting private calls too?
3
SPEAKER_00
So he s using his work issued cell phone to call his private phone
3
SPEAKER_00
in order to make it look, because he s sending me screenshots.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, he also could just register his work phone and his contacts as Glenda, and then send crazy texts from Glenda to his normal phone, screen grab it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
He was Glenda on his work phone?
3
SPEAKER_00
He wasn t.
3
SPEAKER_00
She was legitimately crazy.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, okay, okay.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh, wow, that s a lot going on.
3
SPEAKER_00
So when I am on the phone and I get this other phone call and I see that it s his work phone, it clicks.
3
SPEAKER_00
Every time that he has sent me a screenshot of calls from a private number that he s received, he s done it himself.
3
SPEAKER_00
Call came from inside the house.
3
SPEAKER_00
I can t believe you just said that because that is the exact same thing that I repeated every time I told the story.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like, it s like in the movie when the 911 operator is like, the calls are coming from inside the house.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s how I felt.
3
SPEAKER_00
So all while I m on the phone with my friend, he sends me a message of a screenshot and says, Hey, I just received two more calls, but I think I heard a familiar voice.
3
SPEAKER_00
So call me back so we can talk about it.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I have to pretend like everything s fine because I want to gather as much information as possible.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because so far, I have three phone calls from him.
3
SPEAKER_00
I have no evidence.
3
SPEAKER_00
I call him back.
3
SPEAKER_00
He s hymns and haws about like, oh, well, it wasn t really a voice, it was like a noise, and I think it was from the original barn.
3
SPEAKER_00
You think someone s calling that s at the barn?
3
SPEAKER_00
He s like, yeah, I think so.
3
SPEAKER_00
I don t think it s Glenda.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I get off the phone.
3
SPEAKER_00
The next day, I am just reeling through this Rolodex of memories.
3
SPEAKER_00
of things that have happened.
3
SPEAKER_00
And one of those important elements is that months prior, he had told me, Hey, I started dating Glenda because I am in love with you.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I know that we can t be together.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I tried to distract myself by being with her, but it didn t work.
3
SPEAKER_00
And now I want to be with you.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I said, that s not an option.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_02
Also, Glenn is not as crazy anymore because she knew he was in love with her.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, she is crazy.
3
SPEAKER_00
She s going to kill herself.
3
SPEAKER_00
Also, I m going to kill you.
3
SPEAKER_00
The degree she took it to was crazy, but she wasn t wrong in her insecurities.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
oof so when i said like no it s not gonna happen he kind of tried to plead with me a bit and i said absolutely not we need to take some time apart so then he came back and said i m really sorry we can be friends but there would be times throughout that where he would have little streaks of jealousy or like question oh what did you do last night oh where were you oh or who are you with so
3
SPEAKER_00
As I m thinking back to all of these circumstances, I started to realize that there were a couple of different times where I would be somewhere locally, and I wouldn t think anything of it because I m somewhere locally, but he would show up.
3
SPEAKER_00
There was one time we were at a place and I was getting gelato for my kids,
3
SPEAKER_00
And I saw his car go through like two rows of cars in the parking lot.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, oh my gosh, it s Jake.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m going to give him a call.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I call and say like, hey, I just saw your car.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m here with my kids.
3
SPEAKER_00
Why don t you come and get something to drink with us?
3
SPEAKER_00
Because we re friends.
3
SPEAKER_00
So when I started thinking back to all of these things, I remember this time where I had gone a couple hours north with a friend.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I had said, I m going to this place.
3
SPEAKER_00
This is our destination.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then the thing that I posted on Facebook was at a different destination.
3
SPEAKER_00
And he asked me about a third destination that I did go to.
3
SPEAKER_00
But I never mentioned it.
3
SPEAKER_00
I didn t mention it only purely for the fact that it was uneventful.
3
SPEAKER_00
We went there, nothing was open for lunch and we left.
3
SPEAKER_00
And when I asked him, I said, wait, how did you know I went there?
3
SPEAKER_00
And he said, no, you told me.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, no, I didn t because I didn t tell anybody because it wasn t noteworthy.
3
SPEAKER_00
And he said, you put the location on Facebook.
3
SPEAKER_00
So then when all this happens, I m thinking back.
3
SPEAKER_00
I go check my Facebook page.
3
SPEAKER_00
I never put a location.
3
SPEAKER_00
So that day, the day after the phone calls, I go to my local mechanic here because Jake is also a mechanic and has worked on my car before, but I have one here close to my house.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I go to my mechanic.
3
SPEAKER_00
I said, will you please put my car on the left?
3
SPEAKER_00
and will you please check and see if someone has attached a tracking device to my car? 
3
SPEAKER_00
I lifted up, searched the car.
3
SPEAKER_00
Under it, in the grill, inside the car, they re like, we found nothing.
3
SPEAKER_00
And the owner looks at me and he says, I can see that you re really scared.
3
SPEAKER_00
And he turned around to his other mechanic and he said, tear her car apart.
3
SPEAKER_02
Oh, good.
3
SPEAKER_00
So they go back into my car, they start taking off door panels, under the dashboard, they start ripping everything apart, and in about ten minutes, they say, we found it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Where was it?
3
SPEAKER_00
It was underneath the dash, behind the stereo, up inside Hidden.
3
SPEAKER_00
Jesus Christ.
3
SPEAKER_00
Hardwired to my car.
3
SPEAKER_00
Meaning that my battery is powering this GPS tracker.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, my God.
3
SPEAKER_02
Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow.
3
SPEAKER_00
I found it, well they found it, in mid-February.
3
SPEAKER_00
That trip that I took with a friend of mine was the beginning of September.
3
SPEAKER_00
So it s been in my car five months minimum.
3
SPEAKER_00
Of course, I lose it, start crying, freaking out, and realize that not only has he been the one who has been calling me, but he most likely is the one
3
SPEAKER_00
who threw explosives in my yard.
3
SPEAKER_00
Of course.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, he did it all.
3
SPEAKER_00
Was constantly doing all of this stuff to try and be the hero in my life.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_00
I take the tracker, I take the phone calls, I take everything, I go to the police, and so I end up having to file a report against him.
3
SPEAKER_00
Recently, the laws have changed in Italy, fantastically so, to protect women to a much greater degree.
3
SPEAKER_00
When I do this, I end up getting in touch with a penal lawyer, criminal lawyer, because I want to know what the next steps are.
3
SPEAKER_00
And he says the tracker and the phone calls are stalking and harassment.
3
SPEAKER_00
Those are the equivalent of a felony in the States.
3
SPEAKER_00
All my paperwork is stamped, which is code red.
3
SPEAKER_00
He said, it s extremely serious.
3
SPEAKER_00
This will ruin his life.
3
SPEAKER_00
Everything will be taken from him.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I said, okay.
3
SPEAKER_00
And he said, but there s a problem.
3
SPEAKER_00
He won t go to jail.
3
SPEAKER_00
So there s nothing more dangerous than a crazy person who has nothing to lose.
3
SPEAKER_00
So if you ruin his life,
3
SPEAKER_00
and he has nothing left to hold on to, and he still knows where you live, and he knows where your horse is, and he knows where your children are, he can walk through a piece of paper, as far as like a restraining order goes.
3
SPEAKER_00
So he said, there is one alternative thing that you can do, which is to use what you have and leverage it against him.
3
SPEAKER_00
So essentially what you will do is you will keep the tracker, you will cancel your police report,
3
SPEAKER_00
You will go have a conversation with him and you will say, I have a, B, C, D, and E. The offer is you never speak to me again in any form.
3
SPEAKER_00
So basically that s exactly what I did is I had to man up in a sense and I had to go meet him.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I had my sister in my headphones the whole time, had like my live location on for like three other people.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I had to go meet him and say, this is the situation.
3
SPEAKER_00
I am going to keep all this evidence against you.
3
SPEAKER_00
If another thing ever happens at my house, I will take everything to the police and you are finished.
3
SPEAKER_02
Wow.
3
SPEAKER_02
What was his reaction when he knew you knew all this?
3
SPEAKER_00
He didn t believe that I filed a police report.
3
SPEAKER_00
He didn t believe that I had evidence.
3
SPEAKER_00
He denied everything.
3
SPEAKER_00
Once he agreed to it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
3
SPEAKER_00
The next day I go cancel the police report.
3
SPEAKER_00
I sent him a message, it s cancelled, everything is finished, it s done, goodbye.
3
SPEAKER_00
A couple hours later, I get a photo from him from the stairs of his house and a police car in his driveway.
3
SPEAKER_00
Apparently, the headquarters office did not talk to the local office closest to his house in time and they, because it was a code red,
3
SPEAKER_00
They deployed officers to his house, removed his family from the house, and searched his house and found 11 rifles and multiple large cardboard boxes of ammunition.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh boy.
4
SPEAKER_00
there s extremely strict gun laws.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like you can have a hunting rifle, but I m pretty sure you can t have 11.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I just said, here s the headquarters that I went to.
4
SPEAKER_00
They can contact them and find.
4
SPEAKER_00
I canceled the report.
4
SPEAKER_00
None of this is on me.
4
SPEAKER_00
He said they know
4
SPEAKER_00
No, these are my problems.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, you don t have to worry about it.
4
SPEAKER_00
And we have never spoken since.
4
SPEAKER_00
Whoa!
4
SPEAKER_00
Did he go to jail?
4
SPEAKER_00
No.
4
SPEAKER_02
No.
4
SPEAKER_02
No.
4
SPEAKER_02
Fuck.
4
SPEAKER_00
Ugh.
4
SPEAKER_00
I don t even care what happens with the guns, with the legality of it.
4
SPEAKER_00
I don t even care.
4
SPEAKER_00
I would like to say living in peace, but this was two months ago.
4
SPEAKER_00
Oh my god.
4
SPEAKER_02
Gosh.
4
SPEAKER_00
So I m still like a little on edge, not 100% calm and serene quite yet.
4
SPEAKER_02
Wow.
4
SPEAKER_00
That is bonkers.
4
SPEAKER_02
I hate to wrap up so quick, but we are 45 minutes behind with these other folks.
4
SPEAKER_02
Holy smokes, Melissa, what a crazy fucking story.
4
SPEAKER_02
That s one of the twistiest, most bonkers stories.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s a dateline.
4
SPEAKER_02
Totally.
4
SPEAKER_00
I started therapy, actually, after this happened.
4
SPEAKER_02
I bet.
4
SPEAKER_00
They re supposed to remain neutral.
4
SPEAKER_00
She could not.
4
SPEAKER_00
And she was like, this is a Netflix documentary.
4
SPEAKER_00
This is a dateline story.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m like, yeah, I know.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I just lived it.
4
SPEAKER_02
Oh, my God.
4
SPEAKER_03
I m really sorry.
4
SPEAKER_03
Keep going to therapy because this is a lot to hold.
4
SPEAKER_02
Lots of cameras.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
Be safe.
4
SPEAKER_02
Oh, my gosh.
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, I know you guys have to go, but love the show.
4
SPEAKER_00
So happy that I got to be on it.
4
SPEAKER_00
All right.
4
SPEAKER_00
So nice to meet you.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, thank you.
4
SPEAKER_00
Bye.
4
Whoa.
4
SPEAKER_03
Ooh.
4
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
Wow.
4
SPEAKER_02
Big payoff.
4
SPEAKER_02
That can be like a standalone episode.
4
SPEAKER_03
Hi, it s Miniature Mouse.
4
SPEAKER_03
It was right around here that we decided to break this episode up into two parts.
4
SPEAKER_03
So what you just heard was stalking part one, and next week we will resume with stalking part two.
4
SPEAKER_03
So watch your back and we ll see you next week.
4
SPEAKER_01
Do you wanna sing a tune or something, or a theme song?
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh.
4
SPEAKER_01
Okay, great.
4
SPEAKER_01
We don t have a theme song for this new show, so here I go, go, go.
4
SPEAKER_01
We re gonna ask some random questions, and with the help of our Jerrys, we ll get some suggestions on the fly, right?