0
SPEAKER_01
Coming up next on Passion Struck.
0
SPEAKER_00
There s a chapter in the book that talks about it s called Be Amazed.
0
SPEAKER_00
Looking at our planet from space, I thought I was looking into absolute paradise and can t imagine any place being more beautiful than our planet, our home.
0
SPEAKER_00
As far as us mattering, I think we matter a lot because we got a really cool place to live.
0
SPEAKER_00
I believe that there is life other places.
0
SPEAKER_00
I don t think we ve encountered it yet, but I think we re going to find each other at some point.
0
SPEAKER_00
But I would be shocked if wherever they are, they have a place as beautiful as our planet.
0
SPEAKER_00
And I think we are in a very unique spot.
0
SPEAKER_00
It s a complete and utter paradise that we re living in.
0
SPEAKER_00
I think you see its true beauty from space.
0
SPEAKER_00
And maybe that s what people define as the overview effect.
0
SPEAKER_01
Welcome to Passion Struck.
0
SPEAKER_01
Hi, I m your host, Jon R. Miles, and on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world s most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you.
0
SPEAKER_01
Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself.
0
SPEAKER_01
If you re new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays.
0
SPEAKER_01
We have long-form interviews the rest of the week with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes.
0
SPEAKER_01
Now, let s go out there and become Passion Struck.
0
SPEAKER_01
Hello everyone, and welcome back to episode 381 of Passion Struck, consistently ranked by Apple as the number one alternative health podcast.
0
SPEAKER_01
And thank you to all of you who come back weekly to listen and learn how to live better, be better, and impact the world.
0
SPEAKER_01
I am so excited to announce that my new book, Passion Struck, is now available for pre-order, and you can find it at Amazon or on the Passion Struck website.
0
SPEAKER_01
Throughout the months of December and January, I will be using my solo episodes to discuss different aspects of the book leading up to its launch in February, and in January, we will feature some surprise guests who I talk about in the book.
0
SPEAKER_01
If you re new to the show, thank you so much for being here, or you simply want to introduce this to a friend or family member,
0
SPEAKER_01
Check out our Starter Packs, which are collections of our fans  favorite episodes that we ve put into convenient playlists that give any new listeners a great way to get acclimated to everything we do here on the show.
0
SPEAKER_01
Either go to Spotify or PassionStruck.com slash Starter Packs to get started.
0
SPEAKER_01
In case you missed it, last week featured two great interviews.
0
SPEAKER_01
First was with Dr. Nicole LePera, number one New York Times bestselling author in Illuminary and Holistic Psychology.
0
SPEAKER_01
We discussed her new groundbreaking book, How to Be the Love You Seek, where she proposes that healing our relationship first requires addressing the relationship we have with ourselves.
0
SPEAKER_01
I also interviewed Lee Benson, who is a value creation expert with over 30 years of experience in the business world.
0
SPEAKER_01
He is the CEO of Execute to Win, a firm that helps organizations of all sizes to accelerate the value they create.
0
SPEAKER_01
In our interview, we discuss Lee s new book, Value Creation Kid, which offers a roadmap for parents helping them equip their children with the superpower of turning every life experience into a valuable lesson.
0
SPEAKER_01
If you liked either of those episodes or today s, we would truly appreciate a five-star rating and review and sharing the show with your friends and family.
0
SPEAKER_01
He was such a long way in bringing more people into the Passionstruck community, and we know our guests love to hear from our listeners.
0
SPEAKER_01
Today on Passionstruck, we re incredibly fortunate to have a guest who s truly out of this world, Dr. Mike Massimino.
0
SPEAKER_01
From growing up as a working class kid with a dream as vast as the cosmos, strapping himself into a NASA space shuttle, and orbiting our beautiful planet, Mike has experienced a journey that is nothing short of extraordinary.
0
SPEAKER_01
He s walked in space four times, repaired the Hubble telescope, and even sent tweets from the final frontier.
0
SPEAKER_01
a true modern-day explorer who s pushed the boundaries of what s possible.
0
SPEAKER_01
You might also remember him on the Big Bang Theory.
0
SPEAKER_01
But Mike s journey hasn t just been about reaching the stars, it s also about the lessons learned along the way.
0
SPEAKER_01
Lessons about determination, commitment, and the power of dreams.
0
SPEAKER_01
As a senior advisor for space programs at the Intrepid Sea, Air, and Space Museum, a professor at Columbia University, and a New York Times best-selling author, Mike has distilled these lessons into an actionable guide for anyone looking to achieve their biggest goals.
0
SPEAKER_01
In our interview, we discuss his new book, Moonshot, which is not just a memoir, it s a roadmap for success, packed with wit, wisdom, and the unique perspective of a man who s seen our world from a vantage point few ever will.
0
SPEAKER_01
We explore the 10 hard-earned lessons of spaceflight and life that Mike shares in his book.
0
SPEAKER_01
We discuss the importance of facing impossible odds, embracing change, and always taking the time to marvel at the universe around us.
0
SPEAKER_01
We also explore how we can apply these lessons to our own lives.
0
SPEAKER_01
We discuss how to be the mission control for others, how to turn your workplace into your laboratory, and find awe in the ordinary.
0
SPEAKER_01
And of course, we ll get the inside scoop on what it was like for Mike to be the first rookie to ever spacewalk on the Hubble,
0
SPEAKER_01
That mission contributed to the discovery of dark energy, which later won a Nobel Prize in Physics.
0
SPEAKER_01
So get ready, listeners, because you re about to embark on a journey that will inspire you to reach for the stars, no matter how far they may seem.
0
SPEAKER_01
Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life.
0
SPEAKER_01
Now, let that journey begin.
0
SPEAKER_01
I am so excited today to welcome astronaut Dr. Mike Massimino to PassionStruck.
0
SPEAKER_01
Welcome, Mike.
0
SPEAKER_01
John, thanks for having me.
0
SPEAKER_01
I m going to start out today s interview by asking a question I love to ask, which is we all have moments that define who we are or who we want to become.
0
SPEAKER_01
Can you take us back to that moment as a six-year-old when thoughts of you going into space started coming into your head the day after seeing Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin walk on the moon?
0
SPEAKER_00
Certainly, John.
0
SPEAKER_00
Thanks for having me and whoever s listening, thank you for listening.
0
SPEAKER_00
I can very clearly remember that event.
0
SPEAKER_00
I was six years old and the whole moon program and the Apollo missions that came before like Apollo 8 and Apollo 9 and 10 that led up to Apollo 11.
0
SPEAKER_00
I remember them.
0
SPEAKER_00
I remember those things happening as well.
0
SPEAKER_00
And to me, I just got the sense that this was the most important thing going on in the world at the time.
0
SPEAKER_00
And it was it had it was a lot going on at that time in the late 60s, as there s always a lot going on in the world.
0
SPEAKER_00
But this seemed to really be a good thing that had captured everyone s imagination and interest around the world, not just in the United States, but everyone was paying attention to what was going on with the moon landing.
0
SPEAKER_00
And I felt like this was the most significant thing that had happened in my short lifetime at the time at six years old.
0
SPEAKER_00
But I also had the sense that this is the most important thing that s going to happen for hundreds of years.
0
SPEAKER_00
I had that sense that this is really significant.
0
SPEAKER_00
And as a little kid,
0
SPEAKER_00
I remember thinking that clearly.
0
SPEAKER_00
We had learned about things that had happened hundreds of years before with the explorers coming to the New World and how that was a significant thing back then.
0
SPEAKER_00
But I felt like that s what I was learning about as a little kid.
0
SPEAKER_00
But I felt like this was going to be on that level as far as exploration goes and expanding our horizons.
0
SPEAKER_00
This was the next level.
0
SPEAKER_00
And I still feel that way about it.
0
SPEAKER_00
I don t see how we can ever top that.
0
SPEAKER_00
I don t think we ever will.
0
SPEAKER_00
And I think some people look at that as being disappointing, but I look at it as that s what such a great achievement it was.
0
SPEAKER_00
And for me, John, it wasn t just wanting to go to space.
0
SPEAKER_00
It was I wanted to be like those astronauts.
0
SPEAKER_00
I want to be like Neil Armstrong, my hero.
0
SPEAKER_00
I wanted to be like, that s the way I wanted to grow up.
0
SPEAKER_00
I want to grow up to be that kind of person.
0
SPEAKER_00
But that s what got me interested as a six year old.
0
SPEAKER_00
And then, of course, by the time I was eight years old, I was like, this can never happen.
0
SPEAKER_00
But but at six years old, that s the way I felt about it.
0
SPEAKER_00
And that s the way I still feel about it.
0
SPEAKER_01
Well, referring to when you turned eight, that s when you experienced your fear of height made you start to rethink if this astronaut thing was really a possibility, but it wasn t until January 1986.
0
SPEAKER_01
And I remember it quite clearly because I was a junior in high school watching it when many people were on TV when.
0
SPEAKER_01
shuttle Challenger exploded.
0
SPEAKER_01
People don t think about it, but space travel is probably the most dangerous profession you could have.
0
SPEAKER_01
And I m going to just use this example, because before we got on, I told you I knew a number of astronauts.
0
SPEAKER_01
I met your former classmate, Willie McCool, long before he became an astronaut.
0
SPEAKER_01
I ran cross-country and track at the Naval Academy, and he was
0
SPEAKER_01
quite a legend and at him and just was so inspired by him and had kept up with him during the time leading up to that launch.
0
SPEAKER_01
And the fact that I knew him made that Columbia disaster all the more real for me because sometimes we see these things and they don t really hit you as hard as when someone there.
0
SPEAKER_01
But I listened to another one of your episodes where you said that NASA found, after they looked at the whole space shuttle program, that about one in every 75 space shuttle flights, if I have it correctly, was going to end in disaster.
0
SPEAKER_01
And I wanted to ask you, figuring
0
SPEAKER_01
out that you still wanted to live your life, even risk your life for something that you were willing to pursue your passion because you loved it.
0
SPEAKER_01
Why were you willing to take risks like those that are involved in the space program to go after it?
0
SPEAKER_00
I think what I felt at the time where I still feel about it is that I think you should be passionate
0
SPEAKER_00
about what you re doing to the point that you re willing to take a risk for it.
0
SPEAKER_00
That s the way I felt about the space program.
0
SPEAKER_00
I think some things are worth a risk.
0
SPEAKER_00
I felt the space program was, and I think a dream is, if you re trying to accomplish something in life, something whatever you re passionate about, there s always going to be
1
SPEAKER_00
risks involved.
1
SPEAKER_00
Some of them are maybe financial or risk of your time and maybe some of them even include the risk of your life from time to time.
1
SPEAKER_00
And you don t want to be foolhardy about that at any means, but I don t think we were in the space program.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think we were very careful and cautious
1
SPEAKER_00
as best we could be.
1
SPEAKER_00
But I felt like that the exploration of space and being an astronaut with NASA was worth the risk that we were going to be taking.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think that kind of shows you you re doing the right thing.
1
SPEAKER_00
Not that you want to do anything silly and hurt yourself or have anything bad happen.
1
SPEAKER_00
But what you want to be passionate enough about what you re doing, that you re willing to take that risk.
1
SPEAKER_00
And when the challenger accident happened, I was in between college and grad school working at IBM in New York city.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so I was getting ready to go to grad school to, to try to pursue this dream.
1
SPEAKER_00
And a few months later.
1
SPEAKER_00
And, but I was away from that.
1
SPEAKER_00
I wasn t really part of the program.
1
SPEAKER_00
Then of course I was working for IBM in New York.
1
SPEAKER_00
And when that happened, I felt isolated from being able to help.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was like, well, what can I do?
1
SPEAKER_00
This is a horrible thing.
1
SPEAKER_00
I wish I could be able to help in some way to be a part of it.
1
SPEAKER_00
And in some ways it made me realize how important it is to have something that you feel really strongly about.
1
SPEAKER_00
That seeing that accident didn t scare me at all.
1
SPEAKER_00
It solidified what I was really interested in doing, that you should have a passion in your life that you re willing to risk your life for.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I wanted to be able to do something.
1
SPEAKER_00
If an accident happened in the future, I wanted to be there to help.
1
SPEAKER_00
It solidified my interest and my passion for what I wanted to do.
1
SPEAKER_01
I want to talk about your journey to becoming an astronaut.
1
SPEAKER_01
I was recently watching a million miles away featuring fellow astronaut Jose Fernandez.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I remember interviewing Kayla Baron last year, who s a current astronaut part of group 22.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I think what people don t understand is the selection process that goes into becoming an astronaut.
1
SPEAKER_01
She told me she was one of 12 out of 18,500 applicants.
1
SPEAKER_01
And to put that in a different perspective, you have a better chance of becoming a four-star general in the Marine Corps than you do an astronaut, which is the hardest thing to attain in the military.
1
SPEAKER_01
Can you walk us through the emotional rollercoaster of facing three rejections from NASA before you finally got the opportunity to pursue your dream?
1
SPEAKER_00
Sure.
1
SPEAKER_00
The hardest thing about becoming an astronaut and the hardest thing about a lot of things is just getting the opportunity to do it.
1
SPEAKER_00
As you said, the odds were against you.
1
SPEAKER_00
And there s a chapter in my book, the first chapter is entitled
1
SPEAKER_00
One in a million is not zero.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was coming up on my second rejection and I didn t know about it yet.
1
SPEAKER_00
I knew I was going to get rejected.
1
SPEAKER_00
By that point, people had been investigated their backgrounds and they weren t looking and no one was checking into me.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I hadn t been interviewed.
1
SPEAKER_00
This is my second application.
1
SPEAKER_00
The second time I was rejected.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I knew that their interviews were over and I wasn t part of that.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I was going to get rejected, although I hadn t gotten the official word.
1
SPEAKER_00
for another week or so at this point.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I was watching the Academy Awards on TV.
1
SPEAKER_00
This is in 1992.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I was taking a break from the work I was doing to finish up my doctorate and went over to, they went live to the space shuttle on this one Academy Awards.
1
SPEAKER_00
And the space shuttle crew was floating around and playing around with this statuette that they had flown, this Oscar that they had in space.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I knew with absolute clarity, John, that s what I wanted to do.
1
SPEAKER_00
The thought went to my mind, that s what I want to do.
1
SPEAKER_00
I want to be one of those people.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then it was a thought right after that, that entered my mind, which was, but you ll never get a chance to do that.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s impossible.
1
SPEAKER_00
Who gets to do that?
1
SPEAKER_00
I wasn t even getting any close to it at all.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I wasn t even a finalist.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I wasn t, wasn t getting an interview that time around, for example.
1
SPEAKER_00
And that s the way I felt a lot of times that it was just impossible.
1
SPEAKER_00
But then I put my fancy education at work at MIT and it was, well, one out of a million, which I thought my odds were, or maybe as
1
SPEAKER_00
Kayla said one out of 18,500 or whatever it was back then.
1
SPEAKER_00
Those are pretty low odds.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s not much, but it s not zero.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s a very small number.
1
SPEAKER_00
And maybe if one out of a million is a bunch of zeros with a one at the end of it, but that s a non-zero outcome.
1
SPEAKER_00
And the only way that one disappears and it becomes a zero outcome, and you know what the result will be, is if you give up.
1
SPEAKER_00
Once you give up with absolute certainty, you will not be successful.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I just tried to keep that in mind that this is unlikely, but it s not impossible.
1
SPEAKER_00
But the only way it becomes impossible is if I don t give it a try.
1
SPEAKER_00
And my friend Joe Torre, the baseball manager said, I heard him say one time, you can control the effort, but not the outcome.
1
SPEAKER_00
And you can practice as hard as long as you can, but you can t always control that outcome of whether or not you re gonna win or lose, but you certainly can control your effort.
1
SPEAKER_00
And that s what I concentrated on, was trying to control my effort, not give up, and at least give my dream a chance.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so yeah, I got rejected outright twice.
1
SPEAKER_00
Third time I got an interview and was medically disqualified,
1
SPEAKER_00
because of my eyesight.
1
SPEAKER_00
And when you get medically disqualified, what they told me was, is that they won t even read my application again.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I couldn t even try anymore, which was really disappointing.
1
SPEAKER_00
And they didn t accept LASIK or anything back then.
1
SPEAKER_00
Now it s all different.
1
SPEAKER_00
They ve changed all the rules.
1
SPEAKER_00
So this is no longer, it wouldn t be an issue for me.
1
SPEAKER_00
But back then you had to see pretty well uncorrected vision and I couldn t do it.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I started talking to people to see what might be possible.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I learned about something called vision training, which is training your eyes and your brain
1
SPEAKER_00
To see better is like trying to focus at different at different distances so that you could see better than you normally used to seeing.
1
SPEAKER_00
It didn t seem like it was going to much.
1
SPEAKER_00
It was definitely going to work, but I didn t have any other choice.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I was like, what else am I going to do here?
1
SPEAKER_00
So I gave it a try and I was able to pick up a couple of lines on the eye chart to at least be able to apply again.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was able to send those results in and that allowed me to at least apply again.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I was able to get another interview.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then I got through the medical.
1
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
That next time.
1
SPEAKER_00
And on my fourth try, I was picked after a series of about trying for 10 years.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think when you re trying to pursue something that is.
1
SPEAKER_00
unlikely that requires good fortune, I think involved with it too, but a lot of hard work and persistence.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think you have to be willing to do that and you owe it to yourself to give it a try.
1
SPEAKER_00
And the other thing is that if it never worked out, I wasn t doing things that I really were bad for me that I thought weren t good for me.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was going to graduate school and getting a good work experience and working as a professor at the time at Georgia Tech when I was finally selected.
1
SPEAKER_00
So it wasn t like my efforts was leading me down a bad road.
1
SPEAKER_00
But it ultimately led me toward success in trying to be an astronaut.
1
SPEAKER_00
But I think the main thing that I bring up in that first chapter is remember that one in a million is not zero.
1
SPEAKER_00
And if there s even the slightest chance for success, and that s what your dream is, you owe it to yourself to give it a try.
1
SPEAKER_01
I can completely relate to you about this eye thing.
1
SPEAKER_01
I wanted to be a pilot when I was at the Naval Academy.
1
SPEAKER_01
But when I was growing up as a kid, I had a condition called amplyopia.
1
SPEAKER_01
means I had one eye much stronger than the other.
1
SPEAKER_01
So I tried and tried to pass the eye exam and the closest I could get was 2025.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I remember
1
SPEAKER_01
They were trying to work with me, and I would spend hours trying to do this.
1
SPEAKER_01
And the closest I got, I think was 2 out of 5, and I had to get 3 out of 5 to get qualified.
1
SPEAKER_01
I almost made it.
1
SPEAKER_01
It was so frustrating, but I wish I would have known more about your technique because similar to you, we basic wasn t an option and.
1
SPEAKER_01
The other things you could do were quite dangerous, especially if you were at altitude on how it could affect the eye.
1
SPEAKER_01
So I love that story.
1
SPEAKER_00
You never know.
1
SPEAKER_00
You got everyone.
1
SPEAKER_00
Everyone faces obstacles.
1
SPEAKER_00
Some are unexpected.
1
SPEAKER_00
But whatever that obstacle is, you got to try to figure a way to get around it.
1
SPEAKER_01
Well, I have a upcoming book myself, which comes out in February, and one of the chapters I have on there is called
1
SPEAKER_01
you need to be an action creator.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I based it on an interview I did with Wendy Lawrence, whom you know, and she has this saying that you have to give yourself permission to dream the dream.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I m sure similar to you, you both have probably spoken to thousands of different audiences during your time as an astronaut now.
1
SPEAKER_01
She tells me one of the things that really is alarming to her is how often she meets people who have these dreams and then they give up on them at the first setback that comes their way.
1
SPEAKER_01
What would be your advice for people, even if they have this one in a million shot of pursuing their dream, how to face setbacks that we all know are going to come our way?
1
SPEAKER_00
I think realize that everyone faces setbacks and all successful people have, but you just can t let it stop you no matter what it is, no matter what that challenge is.
1
SPEAKER_00
Remember that if you re going into something difficult and you re going to get rejected here and there.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s very rare for anyone to go through life without having a setback.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think that s where the real test comes of who you are and how passionate you are about what you re doing.
1
SPEAKER_00
So just remember that you re not the first person who have failed at something.
1
SPEAKER_00
And you wouldn t be the first person to give up either because of those failures.
1
SPEAKER_00
But I think the category you want to be in is a person that doesn t let those
2
SPEAKER_01
setbacks stop them and that they just keep going even when it seems hopeless.
2
SPEAKER_01
Just got to keep going.
2
SPEAKER_00
So then you go into the astronaut program, and I happened to be texting with another person, Sunny Williams, last night.
2
SPEAKER_00
She told me an interesting story about you.
2
SPEAKER_00
She said that after you got in the program, you have a big boss who you all work for, who mistook you for another astronaut named Rick Mastracchio.
2
SPEAKER_00
I hear it s a pretty funny story, and I was hoping you might be able to share it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so my last name is Massimino and Rick is Mastracchio.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it was a big, long Italian name with an M. It both started with the same three letters.
2
SPEAKER_01
So that was enough to confuse people.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think that s maybe how I got selected, is they thought I was him, but they weren t sure.
2
SPEAKER_01
So they said, ah, what the heck, take the both of them.
2
SPEAKER_01
But Rick and I are very good friends.
2
SPEAKER_01
I used to get mistaken all the time.
2
SPEAKER_01
In the clinic, they thought I was him.
2
SPEAKER_01
Half the time, they thought he was me.
2
SPEAKER_01
I went to vote one year, and they gave me his voting card.
2
SPEAKER_01
This isn t me.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I hand the person my license, but they just... In Brooklyn, it wouldn t be a problem because there s a lot of different Italian names, but maybe down in Texas, there aren t as many or something, and they weren t used to it.
2
SPEAKER_01
So we would get mistaken all the time.
2
SPEAKER_01
When I first arrived at NASA, Rick had worked at the Johnson Space Center, as I had I, but I was working for a contractor, McDonnell Douglas, and then I was off at Georgia Tech right before I got picked.
2
SPEAKER_01
But Rick had been at the Johnson Space Center working with the astronaut office pretty closely.
2
SPEAKER_01
Someone came up to me,
2
SPEAKER_01
and said, oh, that was great work you did on the STA, the shuttle training aircraft, and all that stuff.
2
SPEAKER_01
I didn t even know what the STA was.
2
SPEAKER_01
It was like my first week of work.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m like, you got the wrong guy.
2
SPEAKER_01
No, you did a great job.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then after a while, I was like, OK, fine, good.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I would always get compliments based on work that Rick did, whereas I don t know what he, I don t think he got any compliments based on me, people thinking he was me.
2
SPEAKER_01
But so it might have worked in my favor.
2
SPEAKER_01
Anyway, the story that Sonny s probably referring to is that there was a flight that was about to be assigned.
2
SPEAKER_01
And yeah, what it was, but it was like, but it was back in the flag that being their family escorts.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I know that the flight took place.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think it was like September, October of 2000 or the year 2000.
2
SPEAKER_01
So probably about a year before that or so they were going to assign this crew.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so the rumor was.
2
SPEAKER_01
We thought it was going to be for Mark.
2
SPEAKER_01
They were going to put a couple of my classmates on it and
2
SPEAKER_01
We all thought the rumor was it was going to be Rick Mastracchio and another one of my classmates, Dan Burbank, who are going to be assigned to this flight.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I get a call, what they were doing at the time is they would call you into the boss s office over in building one.
2
SPEAKER_01
the flight crew ops office and then they would tell everybody, oh, you re going on this space flight.
2
SPEAKER_01
So that s a big day, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
So I get a call from the boss s secretary and I pick up the phone and she goes, hi, Mike, how are you doing?
2
SPEAKER_01
I go, I m doing fine.
2
SPEAKER_01
How are you?
2
SPEAKER_01
She goes, oh, I m doing okay, but why aren t you over here?
2
SPEAKER_01
And this is, I know she s talking about the boss s office.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I m like, am I in trouble?
2
SPEAKER_01
She goes, oh, no, not at all.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I go, then I don t think you want me over there.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think you re looking for someone else.
2
SPEAKER_01
And she goes, hang on.
2
SPEAKER_01
And she goes and checks.
2
SPEAKER_01
Apparently she comes back.
2
SPEAKER_01
She goes, sorry, Mike, wrong guy.
2
SPEAKER_01
And she called the wrong guy.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I almost got Rick s flight assignment.
2
SPEAKER_01
I probably should have played along.
2
SPEAKER_01
They wouldn t have known maybe.
2
SPEAKER_01
Could have got to the point where it was too late for them to change their mind.
2
SPEAKER_01
But yeah, I almost got assigned to Rick Mastracchio s first flight.
2
SPEAKER_01
So they didn t, I couldn t let it go that far.
2
SPEAKER_01
I knew what was going on.
2
SPEAKER_01
They just got us mixed up because we got mixed up all the time.
2
SPEAKER_00
I love that story.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I didn t realize how much thought went into getting selected for these flights.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was talking to Chris Cassidy about it and the decisions he had to make when he was chief astronaut.
2
SPEAKER_00
Sometimes you ve got a heavily Russian crew up there.
2
SPEAKER_00
And if a person s not good in Russian, you can t send them up.
2
SPEAKER_00
Or maybe this is something that requires a specific type of
2
SPEAKER_00
ability to do a spacewalk, and if a person s not good at it, then you ve got to scrub them from that mission.
2
SPEAKER_00
Or there could be geopolitical things going on in the world that you need to take into consideration, or this or that.
2
SPEAKER_00
I never really understood how much thought went into who goes up and who doesn t.
2
SPEAKER_00
So, interesting.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, there s a lot too.
2
SPEAKER_01
Sometimes we wondered what they were coming up with because they re like picking names out of a hat.
2
SPEAKER_01
I don t know if that s ever done, but, but I think typically they want to look for a mixed skillset.
2
SPEAKER_01
You can t have all new guys or all experienced.
2
SPEAKER_01
You usually try to get a good mix of veterans and new people and try to give opportunities to the newer people when you can.
2
SPEAKER_01
I remember there was a French astronaut, Michel Tonini, when I was, he and I were working on a project together when I was new to the astronaut office.
2
SPEAKER_01
And he was telling me about constructing a crew.
2
SPEAKER_01
And he says, he goes, it s always good to have a funny guy on a crew.
2
SPEAKER_01
So you need one funny guy, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
And then he goes, but not two.
2
SPEAKER_01
He goes, only one.
2
SPEAKER_01
If you have two, then it becomes too much.
2
SPEAKER_01
It becomes like a gang and nothing gets done.
2
SPEAKER_01
You need one funny guy.
2
SPEAKER_01
If you can t have a funny guy, that d be great.
2
SPEAKER_01
But only one funny guy.
2
SPEAKER_01
Not two.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I thought that was interesting.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that probably is part of it too.
2
SPEAKER_01
You want to keep the crew personality mix if you can.
2
SPEAKER_01
But I think a lot of it is really what it comes down to is who could do the job and who s going to get the job done and what is best for the goals of the program and the office.
2
SPEAKER_01
And if they can, maybe they throw a funny guy in there as part of that.
2
SPEAKER_00
When I was talking to Chris about you coming on the show, I happened to get to see him face to face a couple of weeks ago.
2
SPEAKER_00
He said, I can t tell you much about mass except he is the funniest astronaut I ve ever met in my life.
2
SPEAKER_01
I ve had a lot of good conversations with him.
2
SPEAKER_01
I remember doing, we both Capcom d a lot together.
2
SPEAKER_01
We would do these handovers and we would just tell each other what was going on in our lives.
2
SPEAKER_01
And there was some funny stories going back and forth.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think he s a funny guy too, if you know what to ask him.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
He does have that sense of humor.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, speaking of lightheartedness, I understand that every class is given a nickname.
2
SPEAKER_00
Caleb Aaron, who I mentioned earlier, they were given the name the turtles because a hurricane hit as they were going through training.
2
SPEAKER_00
How did you become part of sardines?
2
SPEAKER_01
How do we get that name you mean?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_01
So we were 35 Americans and nine international astronauts.
2
SPEAKER_01
So the most they d ever picked in any astronaut class was the original set of shuttle astronauts back in 1978.
2
SPEAKER_01
They picked 35 Americans.
2
SPEAKER_01
So now they match that number and then they picked, they added nine international astronauts.
2
SPEAKER_01
So we had eight different countries represented.
2
SPEAKER_01
So we were the largest class ever.
2
SPEAKER_01
And they d never had a class as large as ours since.
2
SPEAKER_01
Already the office was, you need more people.
2
SPEAKER_01
And even when you get in the office, you don t want anybody else coming.
2
SPEAKER_01
We ve got enough now.
2
SPEAKER_01
We don t need anybody else.
2
SPEAKER_01
We ll take care of it from here.
2
SPEAKER_01
But no, you always want to have more people come in.
2
SPEAKER_01
At that time, at the height of the shuttle program, we were flying around five flights at a time and we were getting ready to build space station.
2
SPEAKER_01
We were still flying the shuttle.
2
SPEAKER_01
There was a lot of projects, a lot of work going on.
2
SPEAKER_01
So when we were flying the shuttle, you had typically seven crew members per flight.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so there was a lot of international astronauts, but you were flying a lot of Americans, maybe 25, 30 Americans a year were flying in space.
2
SPEAKER_01
And the office had become small and we had a big growth in the number of astronauts.
2
SPEAKER_01
I connect that to George Abbey, who was the head of flight crew operations of the, at the beginning of the shuttle program.
2
SPEAKER_01
and then became the, at the time when I was selected, I think he was the head of the Johnson Space Center.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I think he saw the value of having a large astronaut corps because you re not just flying in space, you re also doing jobs on the ground.
2
SPEAKER_01
Most of what you re doing is on the ground.
2
SPEAKER_01
Most of us, even those of us who spend lots of time in space, have spent the predominant amount of your careers on the ground.
2
SPEAKER_01
You have six years or so of training typically before you fly your first flight.
2
SPEAKER_01
You have a lot of work for people to do and get ready and plan and support.
2
SPEAKER_01
We were added to a growing astronaut office where they had just had a class in 1995.
2
SPEAKER_01
It was supposed to be the class of 94, but there was some budget issues or something.
2
SPEAKER_01
So that class, they were picking every two years back then.
2
SPEAKER_01
So they were having a class come in.
2
SPEAKER_01
So they had a class of 92 and then it was supposed to have a class of 94 and then they couldn t do that.
2
SPEAKER_01
So it ended up being a class of 95, but they wanted to stay back on the schedule.
2
SPEAKER_01
So then they had a class of 96.
2
SPEAKER_01
So they just had a group, that was a smaller group, maybe around 15 or so came in that time.
2
SPEAKER_01
But then we were coming in with 44 to what was perceived as a growing and already full office and where they were going to stick us.
2
SPEAKER_01
So it was like, we were going to be jammed in like sardines.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s how we got the nickname, the sardines.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, I m going to jump back into the look you write in your prologue.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I m going to quote you.
2
SPEAKER_00
I had just enough smarts and talent and luck.
2
SPEAKER_00
But what I mostly had was determination, perseverance and grit combined with a passion that kept me going every time I got knocked down and I got knocked down a lot.
2
SPEAKER_00
As I was telling you before we came on, I define passion struck as the combination of passion and perseverance, which is grit combined with intentionality.
2
SPEAKER_00
How do you think that your intentions have factored into how you have applied your grit?
2
SPEAKER_00
Your intentions being how you deliberately go after your goals?
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, well, I think the grit comes in when things don t work out.
2
SPEAKER_01
When I decided that I wanted to somehow give it a try.
2
SPEAKER_01
become an astronaut.
2
SPEAKER_01
This was after I had graduated from college, so I had that little boy dream and then I m like, I know this is
3
SPEAKER_01
impossible.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then after college, I got a job, as I said earlier, working at IBM, which was a great place to work.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I really enjoyed that time there, but really, I didn t see it putting me on a path to get to space.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I could still have applied, but I think there s no way I would be accepted.
3
SPEAKER_01
And with that, I had to do something.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so there I thought there were different options in front of me.
3
SPEAKER_01
One would be maybe to go the route that you had taken, although it was too late for me to go to an academy, but maybe think of joining the military.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I think that you had to have reasons.
3
SPEAKER_01
I thought that to do something that if it doesn t work out as an astronaut, that s the only reason why you shouldn t do that for the only reason.
3
SPEAKER_01
that I m going to go join the military to become an astronaut.
3
SPEAKER_01
I have so much respect for you and Chris and all the other people you ve mentioned that do that, a deep amount of gratitude.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I wanted to serve my country, but I didn t think the military was the best way for me to do that.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I wasn t about to do that.
3
SPEAKER_01
So then I thought, okay, if I don t do that, what s my other option?
3
SPEAKER_01
And it was more the academic route.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I felt like I needed more education, which I was interested in getting anyway.
3
SPEAKER_01
And my intention at that point was to go to graduate school and get a degree.
3
SPEAKER_01
If it could lead me to the astronaut program, great.
3
SPEAKER_01
But if not, at least it could lead me to a career in the space program.
3
SPEAKER_01
And John, I thought that was a little more reasonable.
3
SPEAKER_01
At least maybe I could work and help other people go to space.
3
SPEAKER_01
Even if I couldn t go myself, I could be part of the team that puts people in space and tries to solve some of the problems related to that.
3
SPEAKER_01
that seemed to be so much of a reasonable thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so I put my intention in that area to go to grad school, and I was lucky enough to get into MIT and to study space-related research in areas that I was interested in, which was human machine systems and
3
SPEAKER_01
people robot vs machine or robots vs people was always this debate technology and AI now vs people but even back then back in the 80s that was a question of who s gonna explore space humans or machines but I always felt it was a combination of humans with machines and so human controlled robotics is what I got into.
3
SPEAKER_01
for space exploration.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that was something I had some preparation for in college and an interest in.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so my intention was to, number one, try to become an astronaut or at least get a competitive application together where I wasn t just trying to win the lottery, but I felt like I was giving myself a chance to be a good candidate.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then if that didn t work out, a way to contribute to the space program.
3
SPEAKER_01
I didn t know what that was going to mean.
3
SPEAKER_01
It turned out that it could have been astronaut or could have been professor, a faculty member, engineer, who knows what.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I knew that the graduate, at least I felt my case, the graduate degree was a really important thing to pursue with space related research and try to get relationships with NASA.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I knew what was happening.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I worked for the summers with NASA.
3
SPEAKER_01
I ended up getting a NASA fellowship for grad school, got to know a lot of people at the space centers.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so that was, I guess that was one of my intentions.
3
SPEAKER_01
Now, when you decide you want to go to grad school, you re going to get hit with some obstacles like
3
SPEAKER_01
exams and tests and in one of my biggest obstacles
3
SPEAKER_01
trying to get my PhD was failing my qualifying exam.
3
SPEAKER_01
But at MIT, you have this, if you want to get a PhD, you have to pass this qualifying exam, which is both written and oral.
3
SPEAKER_01
So you have these written parts of the test in different subjects, and then you have an oral exam in front of the faculty.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it can be brutal, not on purpose, but they re trying to test you, but also have you think and see how you re doing.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so typically you would, if you failed, and a lot of, not everyone passed on the first try.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think it was maybe 50-50 at that point.
3
SPEAKER_01
But most of the time, if you re willing to go through this torture a second time, you pass.
3
SPEAKER_01
Most people pass the second time.
3
SPEAKER_01
Occasionally that didn t work either.
3
SPEAKER_01
But, and then that was, you re out of options at that point.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I went in there and took this thing and got destroyed.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I failed it miserably.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I went in to see my advisor after to get the bad news.
3
SPEAKER_01
And he was like, you didn t really do well and you didn t pass and it wasn t good.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then it was like so overwhelmingly bad.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t think he really had any suggestions for me.
3
SPEAKER_01
He was just like,
3
SPEAKER_01
It was a disaster.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t really, it was just terrible.
3
SPEAKER_01
And especially during the oral exam, I was just, I had vapor lock.
3
SPEAKER_01
I just got, they started asking me questions and I couldn t answer.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then they just, they were, they just came at me more or less, which is what their job was.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then, and I said, well, what s the story?
3
SPEAKER_01
Can I at least try again?
3
SPEAKER_01
And he goes, well, you can try again, but you might want to think about it if it s worth your time.
3
SPEAKER_01
And he said, I remember him saying this to me and he was a very kind man.
3
SPEAKER_01
He s still alive.
3
SPEAKER_01
He s still, I consider him a friend.
3
SPEAKER_01
But he was, he s a fatherly figure.
3
SPEAKER_01
He was older than I was, much older, and he could have my father s age.
3
SPEAKER_01
He said, you might not be cut out for this, Mike.
3
SPEAKER_01
You need to think hard whether or not you want to try again.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because based on the way I performed on the first exam, there was no way that was going to, that they thought I could turn it around and pass a second time.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that was pretty tough to hear, but I thought about it for a while and I m thinking, well, what do I really have to lose?
3
SPEAKER_01
Six months is going to go by anyway.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I was already at the school and I had a place to live.
3
SPEAKER_01
It just, I know it could take more time.
3
SPEAKER_01
I could still enroll.
3
SPEAKER_01
It was another six months of education and I was funded too.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was getting, my funding wasn t going to stop because of this.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I could try again.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I was like, well, let me give it a try.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I went back to him a couple of days later and told him that I wanted to try again.
3
SPEAKER_01
And he gave me this little smile and he said,
3
SPEAKER_01
Mike, and he s speaking in generalities as an MIT professor, he said, if one can learn to withstand indignities, one can go far in life, is what he told me.
3
SPEAKER_01
And he just pulled that one out of his hat there.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I thought that was a pretty good way to, a fancy way to put it, that if you can withstand getting beat up, the indignities, he called it, because it was, I went through indignities during that exam.
3
SPEAKER_01
If you can learn it, you can put up with that and still go, you can go far.
3
SPEAKER_01
And, uh, I think he was in some ways, he was happy.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was going to give it another try.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then I changed my approach and I studied differently and I had my friends help me, pummel me with questions so I could be prepared for a normal exam from these smart professors.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I was able to pull it out the second time through.
3
SPEAKER_01
The idea is that my, my going back to your question intention and then needing perseverance and grit.
3
SPEAKER_01
My intention was to try to get.
3
SPEAKER_01
a PhD if I could from MIT, that was my intention.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then once you have that as a goal or an intention or something you want to do, get ready to get knocked down a bit.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it doesn t always happen that way.
3
SPEAKER_01
Some people are able to get through it.
3
SPEAKER_01
They re better prepared than I was, perhaps.
3
SPEAKER_01
A lot of people did pass that exam on the first try, but it didn t work that way for me.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so I had to get up and try it again.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I m very glad I did, of course.
3
SPEAKER_00
I heard you tell that same story on another podcast and the podcaster kind of ruined the moment because he said he had run into the same thing at Carnegie Mellon, but then never took the test again.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that s the thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
Not taking it again is rough.
3
SPEAKER_01
I remember when I failed, before I went back to my advisor, I called the dean s office.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s always interesting, I find, if you look back at these times in your life, I think it s almost like these guardian angels are there to help you.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I remember calling the dean s office, and the dean at the time was Frank Perkins, and I knew who he was, and he knew me.
3
SPEAKER_01
And what I want to do is I was thinking of changing my degree, of not going for the PhD, but going, I already got my master s degree, but going for a degree called the engineer s degree, which a lot of military people got, by the way, John.
3
SPEAKER_01
We had a lot of military guys, men and women up at, they were up at MIT, and they had enough time there to be able to get not just the master s, but take extra classes and get the engineer s degree.
3
SPEAKER_01
which was more coursework.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s twice the coursework and you do an extra thesis component.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s not the PhD, so if you have a little more time, let s say, than to get the master s degree, you could get that.
3
SPEAKER_01
So it was a pretty popular degree, I remember, especially among some of the military friends I had up in grad school.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I was thinking, all right, well, I ve got all these other classes, maybe I ll switch from PhD to the engineer s degree and get out while I can in another semester, let s say.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I remember calling the dean s office to see.
3
SPEAKER_01
Back then, that s when we would call people.
3
SPEAKER_01
Email wasn t that popular back then, but you d get on the phone, you know.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I called the dean s office and Dean Perkins wasn t there, but a guy named Ike Colbert was the associate dean and he took my call.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I remember telling him the situation and I was thinking about filing the paperwork to go to, and he said to me, he goes, Mike, he says, and I didn t know him very well.
3
SPEAKER_01
It was the other dean that I knew well.
3
SPEAKER_01
And he goes, Mike, he said, you want to think real hard about this next decision you re going to make.
3
SPEAKER_01
You are, you have this great opportunity in front of you.
3
SPEAKER_01
I know you ve been knocked down.
3
SPEAKER_01
but you want to think really hard before you give up that big brass ring.
3
SPEAKER_01
I remember him saying that.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I think what he meant was the MIT ring that you get when you graduate is a brass, they call it a brass rat because it s a beaver, which is the school s mascot on a brass ring.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t know if that s what he was talking about.
3
SPEAKER_01
He was talking about like on the merry-go-round, the brass ring or the expression.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I remember him saying that and it hit me.
3
SPEAKER_01
You want to give yourself a chance to succeed here.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that was one of the things.
3
SPEAKER_01
It was great that Dean Colbert was able to take my call that day.
3
SPEAKER_01
and give me that to think about.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then I decided to give another try and made it.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s not anything different with the astronaut program too, in that case where you get knocked down.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I also talk about it in the book that when I was at Georgia Tech, this was after my third rejection, when I got medically disqualified, I was still trying to get back in the game.
3
SPEAKER_01
There was a guy there who had also interviewed for my
4
SPEAKER_01
for the astronaut class I was trying to get into.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I was just sitting at my desk one day and like my first week at work at Georgia Tech after being rejected this third time and moving my family to Atlanta.
4
SPEAKER_01
This faculty member pokes his head in my office and says, hey, you interviewed to be an astronaut?
4
SPEAKER_01
And I go, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
He goes, we had a guy over in some other department, I forget what the department was, electrical engineering or someplace, computer science or something like that.
4
SPEAKER_01
And he also interviewed.
4
SPEAKER_01
And they go, really?
4
SPEAKER_01
And so I wrote this guy a note or called him up or whatever.
4
SPEAKER_01
And they said, by this time, it was a few years later, we had email back then.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I think I might ve emailed the guy or whatever I did to get ahold of him.
4
SPEAKER_01
And he invited me over his house for a barbecue with my family.
4
SPEAKER_01
And he was really together and smart and on his way to tenure.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I figured.
4
SPEAKER_01
And if they don t pick him, they re never going to pick me.
4
SPEAKER_01
I don t stand a chance.
4
SPEAKER_01
This guy s really impressive.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I asked him, of course, this afternoon, cooking hamburgers, I said, do you think you re going to try to become a, you re going to apply again?
4
SPEAKER_01
And he looks at me and he says, no, I m not.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I said, well, why would you not try again?
4
SPEAKER_01
And he says, well,
4
SPEAKER_01
They turned me down once, they ll probably just turn me down again.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I hate to tell you this, John, but I gave him no encouragement.
4
SPEAKER_01
I just shut right up.
4
SPEAKER_01
It was like, okay.
4
SPEAKER_01
And right, right then I knew that he had given up and there was no chance he s ever getting selected.
4
SPEAKER_01
They re not going to come and knock on anybody s door.
4
SPEAKER_01
for an opportunity like that.
4
SPEAKER_01
As you re going back to the story you re telling about Wendy, yeah, you got to wonder though, if people give up, does it really mean that much to them?
4
SPEAKER_01
I think in this guy s case, he was on a great career path, becoming a, I m sure, I don t know what happened, but I bet he became a tenured professor and did something great too.
4
SPEAKER_01
And a lot of people just find out it s not for them.
4
SPEAKER_01
But I think you have to be really honest with yourself.
4
SPEAKER_01
Is that really not for me?
4
SPEAKER_01
Do I really want to give this up?
4
SPEAKER_01
When I write about it in the book, what are you going to think about yourself years from now?
4
SPEAKER_01
Do you want to regret?
4
SPEAKER_01
Are you going to wonder, what if I did this or that?
4
SPEAKER_01
You want to, you re going to have that in life anyway.
4
SPEAKER_01
You always go, ah, I should have done this or that, whatever.
4
SPEAKER_01
You re going to have, I think that s something that s going to happen to everybody anyway, but you want to minimize that, especially for the big things.
4
SPEAKER_01
But you want to try to minimize those regrets.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I think, especially when it comes to a life s dream.
4
SPEAKER_01
So hopefully folks that give up are giving up because there s something else they d rather pursue.
4
SPEAKER_01
But you ve really got to be honest with yourself.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that was part of my problem, too.
4
SPEAKER_01
I don t know if problem s the right word, but to be honest with myself, to know that what I wanted to do was something that was near impossible to get the opportunity to do.
4
SPEAKER_01
I had to realize that that was the case.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I could say, oh, it really doesn t matter.
4
SPEAKER_01
I really don t care.
4
SPEAKER_01
But that s not what I felt in my heart.
4
SPEAKER_01
If I really looked inside, was honest with myself, it s something I really wanted to do.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then I was faced with the reality, well, this is going to be really hard.
4
SPEAKER_01
And get ready for the rush.
4
SPEAKER_00
Now, you might not know this, but Wendy told me when she was at MIT, she was failing a class and she thought she was looking at her aspiration of becoming an astronaut as it was going out the window.
4
SPEAKER_00
And similar to the story you tell, she said, well, I can just assume the worst that I m never going to be able to understand this Greek that they re teaching me.
4
SPEAKER_00
Or I can double down, ask for help.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
Something that you talk about in the book and get assistance and overcoming this challenge that I m facing.
4
SPEAKER_00
And that s exactly what she did.
4
SPEAKER_00
And she was able to get through it.
4
SPEAKER_00
And, you know, the rest is history.
4
SPEAKER_00
But oftentimes we hit those things and we just decide to throw in the towel.
4
SPEAKER_00
when it can be our moment of actually breaking through.
4
SPEAKER_00
And as I was reading your book, was thinking about after getting these rejection letters, finally getting the acceptance letter and then receiving this warning that you need to practice your swimming school skills.
4
SPEAKER_00
Can you tell the audience why that set off alarm bells for you?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, John, I, unlike you in the Navy, I avoided the water when growing up.
4
SPEAKER_01
I just never really learned to swim very well.
4
SPEAKER_01
I didn t like it.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was a skinny kid.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was always, I was always cold when I was in the water.
4
SPEAKER_01
I didn t take swimming lessons.
4
SPEAKER_01
I might ve been 10 or 11 when my mom forced me to try to learn to swim.
4
SPEAKER_01
By then I was like trying to fake it anyway.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I never really learned that I just avoided the water.
4
SPEAKER_01
I could get by a little bit, but I didn t enjoy swimming.
4
SPEAKER_01
I didn t like the water.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then after you get accepted as an astronaut, I got this letter saying, in the welcome letter, it said, congratulations.
4
SPEAKER_01
At first you get a phone call.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s how you find out in any info packet comes.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it said, please practice your swimming because you re going to have to pass a swim test in order to go through water survival training with the Navy.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was like, what?
4
SPEAKER_01
And I was, it was like both happy and sad.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was horrified that I was going to have to do this, but I was really excited that they didn t ask me if I could swim during, and they ask you everything during the interview.
4
SPEAKER_01
And they do this extensive background search and everything else.
4
SPEAKER_01
And not once was my swimming skills ever questioned.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I was really grateful that they never asked me because if they did, I would have been like, maybe not.
4
SPEAKER_01
But maybe they just felt like most people, it was like a life skill that everyone should have.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it s like making a grilled cheese sandwich.
4
SPEAKER_01
It should be something you know how to do.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I think they were figuring out this guy must have, I don t know, they didn t question me before, but they were saying practice your swimming.
4
SPEAKER_01
Or maybe they felt it was something that they could teach you if need be.
4
SPEAKER_01
And they wanted us to practice and so on.
4
SPEAKER_01
So that s what I did.
4
SPEAKER_01
And they gave us all the requirements that we were going to have to perform in order to pass the swim test in order to go to war survival with the Navy in Pensacola.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I wasn t feeling good about this.
4
SPEAKER_01
And we show up for work and after the first week that Friday, before the beginning of the weekend, on a Friday afternoon, all the sardines are sitting in a classroom.
4
SPEAKER_01
And the first week was a lot of administrative stuff.
4
SPEAKER_01
We did get a visit from Neil Armstrong, which was cool.
4
SPEAKER_01
He happened to be in town and came and spoke to us, which was something I ll never forget.
4
SPEAKER_01
But it was mainly administrative.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then on that Friday, as we re getting ready to go home for the weekend, Jeff Ashby, who was a Navy pilot in a class ahead of ours, was our sponsor helping us get through our training.
4
SPEAKER_01
He said, first week s over.
4
SPEAKER_01
And before you go on for the weekend, I want to remind everybody that Monday, our training starts in earnest with the swim test.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh man.
4
SPEAKER_01
Of all things, a swim test.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
Can we have a math quiz?
4
SPEAKER_01
Because something else, does it have to be a swim?
4
SPEAKER_01
It s going to be the swim test.
4
SPEAKER_01
My heart sunk.
4
SPEAKER_01
But then he goes on to say, who are the strong swimmers in this group?
4
SPEAKER_01
And we had a few people raise their hand.
4
SPEAKER_01
We had Heidi Piper and Lee Morin were certified Navy divers.
4
SPEAKER_01
They had that certification and we had some other people that felt they were strong swimmers.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then they said, okay, and Jeff continues, who are the weak swimmers?
4
SPEAKER_01
And I raised my hand as did a couple of the other guys and the other people in my class.
4
SPEAKER_01
And they said, everyone else can go home, but the strong swimmers and the weak swimmers are going to stay after class.
4
SPEAKER_01
And you re going to arrange a time to meet over the weekend.
4
SPEAKER_01
And the strong swimmers are going to help the weak swimmers with their swimming.
4
SPEAKER_01
Because when we go to the pool on Monday, no one leaves the pool until everyone passes that test.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that kind of set up the world that I was going to be in, which I think, John, came out of what you had gone through in the academy and in the military was this idea that there s no individual success, individual accomplishments and promotions and good fitness reports and all that stuff are great.
4
SPEAKER_01
But what really matters is how the mission is and is going on and how the team does.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s really a measure of success.
4
SPEAKER_01
And you could be Michael Phelps, but if you.
4
SPEAKER_01
let one of your classmates not pass.
4
SPEAKER_01
If you didn t help when it went for one of your classmates failed, then really you failed because you didn t help them.
4
SPEAKER_01
And on my end, I didn t want to be the person keeping back the whole class.
4
SPEAKER_01
So it really gave me that incentive to try to push a little more.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I think that kind of helps on both ends.
4
SPEAKER_01
And with that attitude, the stronger folks in something will help the weaker ones and the weaker ones not to hold back the team will accept that help.
4
SPEAKER_01
So you give help when you can give it and you accept help when you need it and admit that you need it.
4
SPEAKER_01
And sometimes that s harder.
4
SPEAKER_01
But we all went to the pool on that Monday and we all ended up passing the test together.
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, you re absolutely correct.
4
SPEAKER_00
The Academy, one of the things that they really double down on you is that your life depends on the person next to you because you each have strengths and weaknesses and there s going to come a time when you re going to need their expertise.
4
SPEAKER_00
And this whole swimming thing resonates directly with me because I had a friend when I was going through Vinny Smith was a football player.
4
SPEAKER_00
We went to prep school together.
4
SPEAKER_00
And in order to graduate, you have to jump off.
4
SPEAKER_00
the 10 meter board, but more importantly, you had to do this swim.
4
SPEAKER_00
I can t remember the distance, but you had to swim it in full uniform.
4
SPEAKER_00
You couldn t touch the side of the pool.
4
SPEAKER_00
And Vinny had basically no fat on him.
4
SPEAKER_00
So when he would just sink.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so I remember myself and a couple other people swim the whole thing next to him and practice with him to get him through this.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then luckily he went Marine Corps because
4
SPEAKER_01
I ve heard stories about that swim test where some guys you can jump off that platform with other guys.
4
SPEAKER_01
You can hold hands and it s an exercise in getting everyone through it.
4
SPEAKER_01
From that s what I ve heard.
4
SPEAKER_00
If push comes to shove, they will get you over that.
4
SPEAKER_00
personally would have to do that.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
4
SPEAKER_00
I was really practiced at doing it because once you jump, it s a lot farther than you think.
4
SPEAKER_00
But well, speaking of jumping, I remember going through the training exercises the first time I got into a T38 and the exercises of if you were going to have to bail.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I understand you yourself learned a pretty painful lesson.
5
SPEAKER_00
when you were the co-pilot of a T-38 on the need to speak up.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was hoping you could share that lesson.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, certainly.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s in a chapter in the book called Speak Up, which we were encouraged to do.
5
SPEAKER_01
And we had, before we got trained to fly as a co-pilot in a T-38, coming in as a civilian with no high-performance jet time, I was going to be the novice here, right, along with a lot of other people.
5
SPEAKER_01
But we were going to be flying with very experienced pilots, all the pilots
5
SPEAKER_01
the military pilots in my astronaut class, plus other pilots who were astronauts who weren t in my class, plus instructor pilots.
5
SPEAKER_01
All these folks had thousands of hours in a high performance jet.
5
SPEAKER_01
A lot of them have flown combat.
5
SPEAKER_01
They had test pilots, most of them.
5
SPEAKER_01
So they were the best pilots in the world, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
And they re going to be in the front.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m going to be in the back.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I m the new guy, not knowing even how to strap in.
5
SPEAKER_01
One of my first flights was with an Air Force guy, Air Force pilot, Jim Kelly, Vegas.
5
SPEAKER_01
And he was my astronaut classmate and good guy, immediately became friends.
5
SPEAKER_01
And he was going out on a night flight.
5
SPEAKER_01
He wanted to get some nighttime, so he s going to go out to San Antonio and he would come back at nighttime to log nighttime.
5
SPEAKER_01
And they asked me if I wanted to go with them.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, yeah, sure.
5
SPEAKER_01
We flew out there and everything was fun and Jovial s flying.
5
SPEAKER_01
He was showing me stuff.
5
SPEAKER_01
It was great.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then we re coming back and at night, things get a little different.
5
SPEAKER_01
Just when the sun goes down, you lose, I think right there, you lose some awareness of what s happening.
5
SPEAKER_01
You can t see as well.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s the end of the day.
5
SPEAKER_01
You re maybe a little more tired.
5
SPEAKER_01
So mistakes, I think in general, you ve got to, I think your antenna needs to go up at nighttime when you re operating and doing something.
5
SPEAKER_01
And as we re getting ready to go to the runway, we re still getting our clearance.
5
SPEAKER_01
The controller tells us to turn to a heading 360, let s say.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so I put that in the flight computer, which is my job.
5
SPEAKER_01
I only have about two or three hours.
5
SPEAKER_01
This is like my fourth or fifth flight now.
5
SPEAKER_01
coming up, including the one that we took to get out to San Antonio.
5
SPEAKER_01
And Vegas has 8,000 hours and a very accomplished pilot.
5
SPEAKER_01
Anyway, so I put that heading in there, and then we taxi out to the runway.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then on the runway, before getting cleared for takeoff, they changed
5
SPEAKER_01
the heading.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I think I said maybe 360 and he changed it to say to 180.
5
SPEAKER_01
So we have a new heading and I put that in there and we rolled down the runway.
5
SPEAKER_01
He likes the afterburner and as he takes off he starts heading towards the first heading that we got when we were still getting ready for taxi, right, still getting clearance.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I see him going in the wrong way.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I see where I put the heading bug to go the other way.
5
SPEAKER_01
He s just going by what he heard.
5
SPEAKER_01
He s on his way.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I thought to myself, what do I know?
5
SPEAKER_01
This is an experienced guy in front of me.
5
SPEAKER_01
He s got to know what he s doing.
5
SPEAKER_01
Maybe I misheard.
5
SPEAKER_01
And right at that moment, what I was thinking that is we re going in the wrong direction at a high speed.
5
SPEAKER_01
the tower controller comes over and says, NASA 911, make a hard right turn now, now, right turn now.
5
SPEAKER_01
So he whips the airplane off into the correct direction.
5
SPEAKER_01
And whoa, what was that?
5
SPEAKER_01
He goes, did they change our heading?
5
SPEAKER_01
Did I miss something?
5
SPEAKER_01
And I go, yeah, they changed it.
5
SPEAKER_01
And he goes, they did?
5
SPEAKER_01
I go, yeah, it s right there on the heading bug.
5
SPEAKER_01
I put it right in there in a flight computer too.
5
SPEAKER_01
He said, you know, we were going in, I was going in the wrong direction and you didn t say anything.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I said something like, I thought you knew what you were doing.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then, and that was it.
5
SPEAKER_01
We didn t hear anything.
5
SPEAKER_01
There was no chatter anymore.
5
SPEAKER_01
After that, we just executed the flight.
5
SPEAKER_01
And once we landed,
5
SPEAKER_01
When we got on the ground, Vegas got in my face.
5
SPEAKER_01
He wasn t mean about it or anything, but he s very serious.
5
SPEAKER_01
And what had happened was we almost had a midair with another airplane that had shown up coming into that airfield.
5
SPEAKER_01
So we got, we almost ran into this other airplane because I didn t say anything, but he would get out of the airplane.
5
SPEAKER_01
He says, look, mess.
5
SPEAKER_01
We almost got killed because I went in the wrong direction, but you almost got us killed because you didn t speak up.
5
SPEAKER_01
And the most, the number one lesson you need to learn from tonight is speak up.
5
SPEAKER_01
If you think you see something or notice something, if you re wrong, I will tell you you re wrong, but I ll always thank you for speaking up.
5
SPEAKER_01
But you have to speak up.
5
SPEAKER_01
You can t not say anything.
5
SPEAKER_01
And that was a lesson that I learned in a future occurrence.
5
SPEAKER_01
When I was faced with that situation, I would never hesitate to speak up.
5
SPEAKER_01
And sometimes I was wrong, but it s better to speak up and be wrong than to stay quiet and have something bad happen.
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, Mike, we ve just touched on the surface of your book today.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m going to just bring up some of the other chapters that you have.
5
SPEAKER_00
Trust your training, trust your gear and trust your team.
5
SPEAKER_00
You can always make it worse.
5
SPEAKER_00
You go into the first rule of leadership, a chapter called Houston, we have a problem.
5
SPEAKER_00
The 32nd rule, be amazed and know when to pivot.
5
SPEAKER_00
Definitely a book just like your other New York Times bestselling book that a listener definitely wants to check out.
5
SPEAKER_00
I wanted to end the discussion on this question.
5
SPEAKER_00
You are one of the lucky few people who have experienced this phenomenon called the overview effect and the awe of looking down.
5
SPEAKER_00
on our planet in a world that for so many people feels mundane today experiencing that overview effect and that feeling of oneness.
5
SPEAKER_00
How did it change your view of the topic of mattering like how you mattered and how other people matter?
5
SPEAKER_01
There s a chapter in the book that talks about it s called Be Amazed and it s about looking at our planet from space.
5
SPEAKER_01
I thought I was looking into absolute paradise and you can t imagine any place being more beautiful than our planet, our home.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I think as far as us mattering, I think we matter a lot because we got a really cool place to live.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think there might be, I believe that there is life other places.
5
SPEAKER_01
I don t think we ve encountered it yet, but I think we re going to
5
SPEAKER_01
find each other at some point.
5
SPEAKER_01
But I would be shocked if wherever they are, they have a place as beautiful as our planet.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I think we are in a very unique spot.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s a complete and utter paradise that we re living in.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I think you see it s true beauty from space.
5
SPEAKER_01
And maybe that s what people define as the overview effect is seeing how beautiful our play or gives you that perspective.
5
SPEAKER_01
When you go to a top of a building and look down at the city or even just a few stories out on a balcony looking out over an area, you kind of, is that this?
5
SPEAKER_01
You get a different perspective of it.
5
SPEAKER_01
And that space is a huge change in perspective where you get to see the whole planet pretty much.
5
SPEAKER_01
And it s just, it s beautiful and it s amazing.
5
SPEAKER_01
But it also, I think, affects
5
SPEAKER_01
what you can appreciate on the ground at least for me.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m here right now on a trip in Boston and it s the fall colors are out and I was looking at the blue sky yesterday and with some whiffy clouds going by and looking through a telescope last night at the moon and Jupiter and there s so many cool things to look at here on our planet.
5
SPEAKER_01
So you can look at it from a far from space and see I think the way it s supposed to be seen in some ways that total beauty coming at you in a different perspective.
5
SPEAKER_01
But I think we have to remember we re in it all the time and every day we have to interact in this planet that we have, this home that we have, whether it s with nature or even the buildings, what people have created.
5
SPEAKER_01
I try not to mind crowds anymore.
5
SPEAKER_01
I like being around people because in space you re not around them as much.
5
SPEAKER_01
I miss that.
5
SPEAKER_01
I miss going to big gatherings.
5
SPEAKER_01
You miss the smells of earth.
5
SPEAKER_01
You miss the sounds, the weather.
5
SPEAKER_01
We don t have any of that in space.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I think it gives you an opportunity to appreciate how beautiful and fragile the planet is.
5
SPEAKER_01
But I think you need to bring that with you and share it with others to appreciate, I m looking out the window now, the beauty that we enjoy every day.
5
SPEAKER_01
If you re in the country or in the city, it s really a spectacular place we live in.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then one other quick just follow on to that is we re not that far away from potentially doing the mission to Mars.
5
SPEAKER_00
If you were one of the astronauts still on active duty, and you were selected for that mission, and it was going to be a long duration one, and the powers that be said you could create an edict, a law, whatever word you want to call it for Mars, what would yours be?
5
SPEAKER_01
That s a good question.
5
SPEAKER_01
Onward to Mars.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think what I guess what I would think about that, getting that opportunity, I think everything that we do in space is to help people on planet Earth.
5
SPEAKER_01
So the first thing that comes to mind, John, and you didn t prepare me for this question.
5
SPEAKER_01
So this is an honest answer here, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
So I would say for me, it would be on to Mars to benefit Earth is what I would say, because I ve heard these stories like, or I was part of a debate and I m not a debater, but I was doing a favor for a friend supposedly.
5
SPEAKER_01
to be a part, to defend leaving the planet versus staying and making it better.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I was on the space side of it, but I was like, what the heck kind of choice is this?
5
SPEAKER_01
We don t go to space to, we are leaving the planet, but we don t go to space to abandon earth.
5
SPEAKER_01
The worst place on earth is a paradise anywhere else.
5
SPEAKER_01
There s no place on Mars is an inhospitable, unlivable place.
5
SPEAKER_01
We re going to have to figure out a way
5
SPEAKER_01
to live there, it s going to be challenging.
5
SPEAKER_01
But I think it s not about leaving the Earth for good, it s about leaving the Earth to understand how we can make Earth a better place.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so that s what I would say is, we re doing this mission not just to explore Mars, but to develop technology and understand our planet, our home planet, and make it a better place to live for everybody.
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, I love that answer, Mike.
5
SPEAKER_01
And where s the best place?
5
SPEAKER_01
I was worried, man.
5
SPEAKER_01
You asked me that question, John, I didn t know what I was going to say.
5
SPEAKER_01
I was a little worried, but thank you.
6
SPEAKER_01
place a listener can go to learn more about you.
6
SPEAKER_01
We ll obviously have the book in the show notes.
6
SPEAKER_02
Thanks.
6
SPEAKER_02
Well, I have a website.
6
SPEAKER_02
Maybe that s a good place.
6
SPEAKER_02
Mike Massimino.com might be a good place to go.
6
SPEAKER_02
You can follow me on Instagram and Twitter.
6
SPEAKER_02
I was the first guy to tweet from space.
6
SPEAKER_02
I m Astro underscore Mike.
6
SPEAKER_02
I don t know what they call Twitter now.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s something else X or whatever.
6
SPEAKER_02
Instagram Astro Mike Massimino and I m on Facebook and LinkedIn.
6
SPEAKER_02
So feel free to reach out.
6
SPEAKER_02
That s where you can find me.
6
SPEAKER_02
Then on the website, there s a way to contact me on the website as well.
6
SPEAKER_01
Well, Mike, thank you so much for joining us.
6
SPEAKER_01
It was such an incredible honor to have you, and congratulations on the launch of your book.
6
SPEAKER_02
Thank you, and thank you for your service to our country and the Navy.
6
SPEAKER_02
I m glad you hung out with some pretty cool peoples.
6
SPEAKER_02
Thank you for that, and thank you for having me on the show and promoting the book, too, John.
6
SPEAKER_02
It was very nice spending some time with you.
6
SPEAKER_01
You re absolutely welcome.
6
SPEAKER_01
It was completely my honor to have you.
6
SPEAKER_02
Thank you, John.
6
SPEAKER_01
I thoroughly enjoyed today s interview with Dr. Mike Massimino, and I wanted to thank Mike, Alyssa Fortunato, and also Hachette Books for the honor and privilege of having them appear on today s show.
6
SPEAKER_01
Links to all things Mike will be in the show notes.
6
SPEAKER_01
Please use our website links if you purchase any of the books from the guests that we feature here on the show.
6
SPEAKER_01
All proceeds go to supporting the show.
6
SPEAKER_01
Videos are on YouTube, both on our main channel, John R. Miles, and on our Clips channel, PassionStruckClips.
6
SPEAKER_01
Advertiser deals and discount codes are in one convenient place at passionstruck.com slash deals.
6
SPEAKER_01
You can find me on all the social platforms at John R. Miles.
6
SPEAKER_01
Sign up for my work-related newsletter, Work Intentionally on LinkedIn, or my personal development newsletter, Live Intentionally at passionstruck.com.
6
SPEAKER_01
Also on PassionStruck.com.
6
SPEAKER_01
Also on the PassionStruck website, you can now take a quiz to understand where you sit on the PassionStruck continuum.
6
SPEAKER_01
You can find that on our book page at PassionStruck.com slash PassionStruckbook.
6
SPEAKER_01
You re about to hear a preview of the PassionStruck podcast interview that I did with my friend Gordy Ball, the founder of the Conscious Thought Revolution and the author of the new Wall Street Journal bestselling book, The New Millionaire s Playbook, Seven Keys to Unlock Freedom, Purpose, and Abundance.
6
SPEAKER_00
Over the next 10 years, we are undergoing the largest wealth transfer in modern history.
6
SPEAKER_00
Accenture reports that there will be over 70 trillion dollars that are moving hands from the boomer generation to millennials and Gen Z. And millennials and Gen Z have a much different set of values than the boomer generation.
6
SPEAKER_00
They care more about
6
SPEAKER_00
sustainability, regeneration, mental health, emotional health, spiritual health, physical health.
6
SPEAKER_00
This affords the greatest opportunity to generate abundance as well.
6
SPEAKER_00
So for those who are feeling that life does look hopeless and at moments it may, but really that is the universe really calling us forward and saying it s really time to wake up.
6
SPEAKER_00
discover your purpose, raise your consciousness, and shine your light bright because the opportunity to generate abundance now is like never before.
6
SPEAKER_01
Remember that we rise by lifting others, so share this show with those that you love and care about.
6
SPEAKER_01
And if you found today s episode with Mike Massimino on the topic of Moonshot inspirational, then definitely share this show with those that you love and care about.
6
SPEAKER_01
In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so that you can live what you listen.
6
SPEAKER_01
And until next time, go out there and become passion struck.
6
SPEAKER_01
You re welcome.