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 In our culture, we know joy is a superpower.
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No one will doubt that one.
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What we need is to resurrect the power of sadness.
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And the power of it is, well, as we've said, that it's one of the most powerful ways that we have.
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Welcome to the School of Greatness.
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My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur.
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And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness.
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 Thanks for spending some time with me today.
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Now let the class begin.
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Bittersweet.
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I think it's something that connects with both of us, specifically recently.
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We both had people close to us pass away.
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And for me, when my father passed a few months ago, it was a time of fully allowing myself to express my range of emotions, sadness,
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 Some resentment, some anger, some frustration, but just a lot of sadness.
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But at the same time, I went back to my hometown, to my old house, and there was a lot of gratitude.
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There was a lot of appreciation, gratitude, and joy.
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And I don't know if you experienced that when you had family members pass recently, where there was both sadness and lots of joy and gratitude, but that's what I felt, and that's what I continue to feel.
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 Yeah, I feel like such a dizzying mix of emotions that you end up having.
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And for me, with both the loss of my father and my brother, the first emotion that I had in both cases was nausea, actually.
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And I had it for days.
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It didn't go away.
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Yeah, I think it was just like a profound, you know, feeling of like the ground is pulled out from under you.
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 Yeah, you know, just the sense of like the finality, you know, that which used to be will never be again, like that kind of feeling.
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Yes.
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Like both both times, I had to just really absorb that first.
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But I don't know with my father in particular, I guess what took the place of that pretty quickly in my father was like was a person who
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 He's a really bittersweet person in his own way.
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And he really loved beauty.
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So he was like, he was a medical school professor and he worked like crazy long hours, but he would come home late at night and he would always have these things he was doing.
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Like he loved orchids.
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He just thought they were beautiful.
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So he built a greenhouse full of orchids in the basement.
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Yeah.
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And he would just like,
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 cultivate these orchids, that the only people who would see them were him and the family.
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And he loved the sound of the French language, so he would teach himself how to speak French.
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He spoke French?
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He was fluent or he understood some of it?
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I think he was mostly fluent by the time he was done.
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That's pretty cool.
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 Yeah.
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And, um, you know, he loved me.
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I love music so much and I write about it and bittersweet.
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And he was the one who really taught me to love it so much.
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He was like playing it for me from the time I was a little kid.
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So after he died,
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 like every time I listen to music or see something that I know he would have appreciated, I don't know, like at the beginning it was like, oh my gosh, I wish so much that I could tell him this or share this with him.
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But then I was able to move to a place of like, well, he's still here with me in some way and I love these things because he loved them too.
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You know, whether we're sharing it for genetic reasons or because he taught it to me, like we're, I feel like there's still a togetherness there.
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So that's been great to see.
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 after his passing than when he was here, spiritually?
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No, no.
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I think it's more just that it's similar, that it hasn't changed as much as I thought it was going to change.
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Really?
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Yeah, something like that.
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So there was sadness, but was there also a sweetness to it after this, after him passing?
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 I mean, I guess the sweetness is that it's made me take stock of all the different things that he gave to me.
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Like everything I was just describing to you.
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I really live my life thinking all the time about beauty.
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I don't know why it matters so much to me, but it just really does.
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And I think it was really only after he died that I became as intensely aware as I now am of how much that comes from him.
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 Wow.
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What would you say was the biggest lesson that he taught you?
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 It was that, but you know, there was just a way that he lived his life that was like, you know, just do the right thing without any mess or fuss.
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Like he was not a person who cared about the spotlight one way or another.
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So, you know, my first book, Quiet, was about introverts.
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And I think it's, I mean, everyone in my family is introverted.
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So I got these lessons from everyone in the family, but I would look at my father and like,
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 Everything that he did was because he was a quiet person who would spend a lot of time pouring over medical journals and doing everything that he needed to do to be really good at what he did.
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And he didn't care about the spotlight.
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 I would go from that and then look around at the culture that is telling you, you know, you have to be the kind of person who wants to be in the spotlight all the time.
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And there was like this total mismatch between what I was observing with him and at home versus what the culture was saying.
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And that I think was what enabled me to question the cultural message that we were getting.
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Did you have a lot of confusion growing up then when other people were about the spotlight and you were kind of happy being more isolated, I guess?
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 Oh yeah, totally.
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I always liked to connect with people, but I liked to connect one-on-one.
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Not in big groups.
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Yeah, not in big groups.
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And really, everything that I do now that's in the spotlight is always like, oh my god, I'm stepping so far outside my character.
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And it's in the service of work that I really love.
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So I do it.
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But it's not really my core.
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Right.
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 It's a constant process of working through that.
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You talk about being whole when you're experiencing sorrow and pain and sadness and all these things.
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How does someone feel whole when there's so much pain in their life?
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 They're human, so humans have pain.
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That's part of what it is to be human.
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I define bittersweetness as being a deep recognition that joy and sorrow are forever paired in this world and that everything in this world is impermanent.
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The people we love will not be here forever.
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But there's something about really intensely knowing that that connects you to a kind of piercing joy at how beautiful everything is.
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 So it's like, I don't think you can feel whole if you're doing the sort of toxically positive thing of always plastering a cheerful smile on your face and never talking about what's really happening.
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That's not wholeness, that's just like self-presentation.
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It's a complete different thing.
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So how does someone get to a place of knowing they're whole when all they feel is sadness and darkness?
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 Well, if you're only feeling sadness and darkness, you're probably going, you're probably situated too far on the other extreme and you might be needing to figure out what's keeping you locked only in that place.
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So I think it's a process of being open to all the emotions that we have.
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 and asking, you know, what do each of these emotions tell us?
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What does this pain that I have tell me?
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You know, like if you're experiencing, let's say, huge pain over a breakup, that's telling you that you have that pain because you care about love and about relationships.
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So it's like the pain is pointing you directly to what do you care about most.
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And once you know what you care about most, you can
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 lean further into that thing, as opposed to what you could alternatively do is say, I'm feeling all this pain, so maybe I shouldn't have relationships anymore.
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I keep having pain over and over again, so I better reconsider this whole thing.
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That was me.
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It was always painful.
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Yeah.
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Right?
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And did you ever think, well, maybe I just shouldn't do this at all?
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Well, I was always like, OK, being in a relationship for a period of time is beautiful,
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 until it's not and then eventually it turns into pain and suffering.
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Being single is freeing and fun and peaceful until it's not when I feel a longing of intimacy and vulnerability and true deeper connection as opposed to kind of surface level connections.
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It was like okay I really craved intimacy and vulnerability
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 But every time I dove into that, I found myself suffering and in pain and heartache.
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And so it was really figuring out the process of getting back to wholeness and not, it was almost like getting to a place where I didn't need it and I was so whole with myself and my own vulnerability and intimacy.
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And then being able to create a relationship based out of wholeness, not out of a wound or something that I was lacking.
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And that's where it really started to shift for me.
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 Right, right, yeah, no, that makes total sense.
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So it sounds like you could either spend six months in the relationship and then get to the wall, or six months in singlehood and then get to the wall of loneliness.
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Yeah, yeah.
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But I never figured out how to break through the wall, still, until recently.
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What would you say is the hardest emotion for you to overcome or learn how to manage where it wasn't like holding you back in a big way?
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 For me personally, the emotions of sorrow and longing that I talk about in the book have actually always been ones that I do manage pretty well and see the beauty in them.
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So for me personally, the one that's been the most difficult, I would say, is anxiety.
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Really?
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Oh yeah, yeah.
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What type of anxiety?
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Social anxiety or just anxiousness around what?
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I guess a little bit of both.
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I just have a proneness to a kind of low-level anxiety so that
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 I don't know, if I have a lot of things that I need to get done, like until I'm really on it.
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You feel a little stress or anxious.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And then we were talking before, before we came online, you know, that all my life I had this historic, terrible public speaking anxiety.
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And that one I really did overcome, but it was a huge thing that overshadowed my life for decades, really.
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Oh yeah, yeah, it was huge.
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Would it cripple you or would just, it would consume your energy a week or two getting ready for the speech?
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 It was a little bit of both.
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It was like before the speech, I wouldn't be able to eat for like a week.
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I wouldn't really sleep.
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Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
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You couldn't eat for a week?
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I couldn't eat for a week, yeah.
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Holy cow, you're just like nibbling on some peanuts or something?
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Yeah, yeah, just like the bare minimum.
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Just to stay alive.
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Yeah, yeah, like you get hungry and then you need something.
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I'm eating four days, I need to stay alive for this speech, yeah, wow.
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 Yeah, and I could always like grit my teeth and get through the speech, but I don't think I did a great job, but I didn't do a terrible job either.
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Like I would just grit my teeth.
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All your speeches, you always look incredible and like on it and you remember everything and you're connecting with the audience.
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You look like you're a trained pro.
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 Well, I don't feel all those things anymore.
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I actually really did overcome this one, which was not easy, but there's a magic way to overcome any kind of fear.
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I'm curious if you did this with your public speaking anxiety that you used to have.
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The secret is just desensitization of exposing yourself to the thing that you fear, but in really small doses.
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So that's what I did.
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I went to seminars for people with public speaking anxiety, and I went to Toastmasters.
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 Toastmasters was the foundation for me because I could not get in front of a group of five people like I was telling you before without
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 forgetting everything.
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I remember thinking, how am I gonna give a two minute speech?
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What can I say that's interesting for two minutes?
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Five minutes felt like five hours.
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And I remember going to Toastmasters for the first time,
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 Was 24 I was terrified and it was all these like, you know 30 40 50 year old professionals and suits and Had been speaking for decades and I'm sitting there This bum just got done playing football Trying to figure out what I was gonna do with my life and a t-shirt a cutoff t-shirt walking in like I'm not in the right place, but that was exactly where I needed to be I remember they said, you know
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 Okay, your first speech is an icebreaker.
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Five minutes long.
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Remember this.
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I spent two weeks writing down, word for word, the speech and I was like, I have no idea what I'm going to say for five minutes.
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 And I entered the Toastmasters for the first time sweating, dripping sweat.
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I stood behind the podium because I was so afraid to get in front of people.
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So I needed the barrier.
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And I had my papers up there and I literally looked down the whole time and just read like this to make sure I didn't miss anything.
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Flipped the page, read the whole time, and then at the end looked up.
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And I remember feeling like, man, I am such a loser.
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I'm so bad.
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I'm the worst person here.
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 They're going to make fun of me.
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And obviously in Toastmasters, they can't make fun of you.
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They have to be supportive, right?
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Semi-encouraging and give constructive feedback.
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And they were great, but they were like, you know, next time, try to look up once.
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Next time, try to smile.
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Next time, take a deep breath.
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 As opposed to small doses, I threw myself in every week, giving myself another speech.
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And I said, every time I go, I need to get up for table topics, which I don't know if you remember.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Which was terrifying.
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Wait, are those the ones that are impromptu, the table topics?
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Impromptu, yes.
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It was like improv, public speaking.
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And so I remember saying, every time I have to do this because I don't want to do it.
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Right, right.
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Anything that made me feel uncomfortable, I just said, okay, I have to get up and do this.
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 And did you ever stay home?
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It's Tuesday night, let's say, time to go to Toastmasters.
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I went every time.
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This is a period of my life where I had nothing else going on.
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I was on my sister's couch.
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I was broke.
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And I was like, I want to overcome this fear.
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So I was like, I'm going every week.
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I found a mentor from the Toastmasters who I'd meet with every week as well at night at his place and go over my next speech.
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And I'd practice it with him.
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 I was like, I'm coming.
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You're probably the only person in the history of Toastmasters who's ever done that.
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That's amazing.
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I was committed because I knew that this was crippling me.
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This fear, this inability to stand in front of a few people and say a message would cripple me for the rest of my life if I didn't overcome it.
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 that was exactly how I felt also.
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Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And I used to be a corporate lawyer and I didn't care deep down, I think, that much about corporate law.
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So I was never invested enough to overcome the fear when I was doing that.
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But then when I became a writer and I cared so much about what I was doing, yeah, and I just felt like, oh my gosh, you can't nowadays do this profession without being able to go out and speak about it.
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 So that was when I had the motivation to do what you were just describing of like, oh my God, I'm gonna show up every week even though I hate this.
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You know, you just keep doing it.
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And yeah, and I think people who don't have it don't understand what it's like.
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But the thing that you said about that you needed the podium,
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 at the seminar that I went to for specifically people overcoming this fear.
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I didn't even know there was a thing that was like overcoming fear public speaking seminar.
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Oh, yeah.
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Yeah, it's in New York City.
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I think it's still going.
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It's run by this guy Charles Dekagno.
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It's called I think the Public Speaking Center of New York.
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It's great.
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And he does exercises where it's like
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 you'd stand in front of everybody with other people on either side of you, and all you'd have to do is answer some questions about yourself.
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But the idea of having the other people next to you is like, you're not alone in the spotlight.
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Oh, because just being on stage is terrifying alone.
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Right.
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So you're practicing being on stage, but you're not up there all alone.
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So that's like the whole little by little idea.
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Do you answer a question and they just stand next to you and they're not doing anything?
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 Like it's just one person's answering at a time.
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It's not everyone's answering.
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Right.
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It's just one person.
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So like, let's say it's my turn.
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I'm like up there.
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I've got two people here, two people here.
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They're not saying anything.
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I'm the only one like on the hook, but they're there with you.
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And that changes, like ratchets it down a little bit.
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Interesting.
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 Yeah, and then little by little, you know, you go up there on your own the next week.
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Yeah, I think the thing I like about Toastmasters is they give you like a new prompt every time you do a speech.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Okay, this one, let's use a prompt.
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This one, use, you know, vocal variety.
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This one, you know, whatever.
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Say people's name or something.
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 And what's great also, I mean, we were talking a lot before we came online about vulnerability and to what extent does our culture allow it.
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I feel like a group like a Toastmasters, it's actually allowed to talk about that because so many people are there for that purpose.
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Like I had assumed when I first went that it was going to be all these.
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 you know, amazing, confident speakers who are just there to put the cherry on the icing on top.
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Yeah, but it wasn't.
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It was more like people who really needed to work on it.
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So I would say that was one of my first public spaces of really talking about these kinds of topics in an out-there way.
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And you practiced these topics there first before you took it out into the public, right?
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Yeah, exactly, exactly.
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On a scale of 1 to 10,
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 When you wrote Quiet, when it came out there and it was on the New York Times Best Seller list for the first year, let's say, on a scale of one to 10, how much self-love and confidence did you have after a year of accomplishing this kind of, these accomplishments?
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How much self-love?
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How much self-love and confidence, like lack of anxiety, did you say you had when you were, after the first year?
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 And 10 being like you loved yourself the most and had no anxiety.
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One being you had a ton of anxiety and you were questioning your self-love or you weren't loving yourself to the full capacity.
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Do you mean about public appearances or just in general?
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Internally, how did you feel?
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I think internally I was okay.
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I think I was feeling
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 I was feeling pretty darn good, yeah, because I'd wanted to be a writer since I was four, and I had spent so many years off on this gigantic detour of being a lawyer, and then suddenly this dream I had always had had come true.
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 And I mean, you know this feeling of like when you get letters from people and they tell you what it might've meant to them and that's the best thing in the world.
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I don't really know of anything better work-wise.
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So yeah, I think.
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When did you feel, have you felt pretty consistent with those emotions over the last 10 years then?
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Or have there been times where you've doubted yourself in the last 10 years?
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 Oh no, I mean, I don't think you can help but sometimes doubt yourself, but I don't know how to explain it.
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Like when it comes to writing,
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 On a deep fundamental level, I don't have that much doubt because I have so much of a sense of like, this is what I'm supposed to be doing.
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So I don't always know that I'm actually gonna create the best thing, but I just know that the process of trying to create it.
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You know how to do that.
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Well, I don't even know if I know how to do it.
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I just know that trying to do it is like, that's like the great gift of my life, just working.
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 There's always your vision of the shining, amazing thing that you're actually going to create, and you know you're never going to actually reach that vision or reach that goal.
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But just the act of trying to reach it, to me, is the ultimate state.
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So I wrote Bittersweet.
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It took me all these years, once again.
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 And yeah, like I have moments where I'm like tearing my hair out over how the heck do I structure this chapter?
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I have no idea what to do.
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But then there's some deeper level where I feel like, well, you know, just the act of tearing my hair out over this is the right pathway.
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It's worth it.
0
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
0
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I remember when I had Liz Gilbert on.
0
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I'm not sure if you're close with her as well.
0
SPEAKER_01
I know.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, she's great.
0
SPEAKER_01
She's great.
0
SPEAKER_02
I remember having her on and she mentioned how
0
SPEAKER_02
 She had this massive hit, You Pray Love, and then she was like.
0
SPEAKER_02
 what do you do now knowing that probably your best work or your most successful work is behind you, right?
0
SPEAKER_02
It's kind of like, did you have this sense after Quiet of, okay, this eight year run of New York Times Best Seller list, what, 10 people in the world have done that?
0
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I don't know, for that long?
0
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Did you have this thought of like, how can I make the next thing as good or am I going to be as good as my previous work or are people gonna care as much
0
SPEAKER_01
 Well, I will say, so Liz Gilbert gave the most beautiful TED Talk on that exact topic.
0
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Did you ever see that one?
0
SPEAKER_01
Yes, it's incredible.
0
SPEAKER_01
I watched that TED Talk like a million times before I ever gave mine because to me it was just amazing.
0
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So yeah, so I thought about that a lot as I was writing the second book.
0
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And I don't know, it's kind of a mix.
0
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So yeah, there's a feeling of like,
0
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 all of that fear.
0
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But there's also something that you and I talked about earlier about the feeling of like, well, if you connect with one person, that's, you know, that that's the goal.
0
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And, and so I felt like, well, okay, you know, you want
0
SPEAKER_01
 to be spending all your time, you wanna be connecting with as many people as you possibly can.
0
SPEAKER_01
But I also think there's something about just one intense one-on-one connection that is worth it.
0
SPEAKER_01
So that's what I focus on.
0
SPEAKER_01
So now I have new letters coming in from people who have read Bittersweet and they'll talk about it.
0
SPEAKER_01
 Those to me are the mind-blowing moments, right?
0
SPEAKER_02
Yeah Yeah, it's tough because so many of us want to have these these accomplishments or you want to reach the same thing that you did in a previous thing But what I'm hearing you say is focusing more on the process is where you really get the joy and focusing on however, many people consume it or engage with it and supporting them is really where the the joy comes from and
0
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 Yeah, I feel like there's a kind of magic in it.
0
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The reason I wanted to be a writer in the first place is because the feeling I would get reading a book of the intense connection with the author, and the author might not even be alive anymore at the moment you're having that connection, and yet you're having it across the centuries.
0
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So that's what I'm in it for, is trying to have those moments.
0
SPEAKER_02
That's cool.
0
SPEAKER_02
 I feel like there isn't much wholeness in the world.
0
SPEAKER_02
I mean, there's so much addiction to outside things to try to create wholeness, social media addiction, substances, whether it's alcohol or vaping or cigarettes or drugs to sex addictions to whatever it might be out there.
0
SPEAKER_02
 Where do you think the emptiness is coming from?
0
SPEAKER_02
And why are so many people seeking wholeness and outside distractions?
0
SPEAKER_01
I mean, there's a lot of reasons for that, but I think our culture, we've been in trouble for a while because we
0
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 And I say a while, I'm actually dating this all the way back to the 19th century.
0
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I talk about this in the book.
0
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Since then, we started asking ourselves the question of when something goes badly or well for someone, is that because of outside forces of good luck or bad luck, or is it about something inside the person?
0
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And the answer's probably really a mix of both.
0
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But increasingly, we started answering that question by saying,
0
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 It's all about you.
0
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You're totally determining everything.
0
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And from there, we started categorizing people into born winners or born losers.
0
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And I think we may not admit it, but that's really how we think about ourselves and each other.
0
SPEAKER_02
Why do we categorize as born winners and losers?
0
SPEAKER_02
 Why because I mean based on like you have a chapter about this in the book about winners and losers Yeah, is it about like your parents have a certain amount?
0
SPEAKER_02
So you're going to be a winner or where you were born or what type of winner and loser?
0
SPEAKER_02
Do you mean by that?
0
SPEAKER_01
 Oh, I mean, like, are you going to be like a winner at the game of life?
0
SPEAKER_01
You know, and at different cultural moments, we define that differently.
0
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You know, nowadays, that looks like, you know, are you successful at work?
0
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Are you attractive?
0
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Are you fit?
0
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Are you all these things?
0
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And not only are you all those things, but do you achieve all those things very effortlessly?
0
SPEAKER_01
Right.
0
SPEAKER_01
 And the more we are looking at ourselves and each other that way, the more we feel like we have to present the emotions of a winner.
0
SPEAKER_01
So we have to always seem happy and everything's easy for us.
0
SPEAKER_01
Nothing's too vulnerable.
0
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Nothing bothers me.
0
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Nothing bothers me.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_01
You know, like the emotions that I talk about of sorrow and longing, which I actually believe
0
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 are some of the most powerful emotions that connect us with each other and that connect us with the heavens and with transcendence and with creativity.
0
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We don't allow ourselves to go there because to express sorrow and longing is to put yourself kind of on the loser side of the emotional ledger.
0
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And so we can't be whole because we don't allow ourselves to talk about
0
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 pain even though that's part of life.
0
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Like it should be no big deal.
0
SPEAKER_01
It should be no big deal because of course everybody has it.
0
SPEAKER_01
Of course everyone has these emotions.
0
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But we're afraid of how we'll be seen.
0
SPEAKER_02
Why do you think people are afraid to cry in front of others, to be vulnerable, to say things that they're ashamed of, to say things that they're not proud of?
0
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Why do you think that is?
0
SPEAKER_01
 I think people are afraid of falling in status, you know, like losing their status in the eyes of others.
0
SPEAKER_01
You know, that you'll topple a few ranks down on the social hierarchy if you admit to those things.
0
SPEAKER_01
Even though, you know,
0
SPEAKER_02
 That's what also connects us to people, too.
0
SPEAKER_01
That's what connects us.
0
SPEAKER_01
That's the thing.
0
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That is what connects us.
0
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I mean, there's a reason that, like, all our religions, they talk about suffering and what to do with the problem of suffering.
0
SPEAKER_01
And all our religions talk about the longing for a world that's more perfect and beautiful than this one, you know, like the longing for Eden, the longing for Mecca, the longing for Zion.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's because we all come into this world with a sense of
0
SPEAKER_01
 incompleteness and the desire to articulate that and to reach a little closer for a place of real love and beauty.
0
SPEAKER_01
But we only allow ourselves to express that through, let's say, religion or through a few different pieces of art, let's say.
0
SPEAKER_01
We don't allow it in everyday chit-chat, even though that's what connects us.
0
SPEAKER_02
 Yeah, it's interesting because up until I turned 30, I would say I lived in a world where I had to put on a certain mask, right?
0
SPEAKER_02
I had to project a strength, a confidence, knowing I have the answers, whatever it might be.
0
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I had to project a lack of weakness is what I felt like I needed to do.
1
SPEAKER_00
 In order to belong right fit in be accepted and be loved Yeah, and then I I realized that was the thing that was holding me back from deepest levels of connection intimacy love and the full range of emotions I would say in a conscious way and when I started to
1
SPEAKER_00
 kind of peel back the masks and be vulnerable in certain settings and seasons of life, I was able to release a lot of pain, release a lot of shame, release a lot of things that were holding me back to feel loved like I'd never felt before.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it's a work in progress over the last decade of figuring that out and unlearning, but it's been a beautiful journey.
1
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And I find that
1
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 Vulnerability brings me so much deeper connection to people.
1
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And I think you got to do it at the right time and season.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, it's not just like in every moment, you know, regurgitating a vulnerability.
1
SPEAKER_00
There's incredible power to vulnerability and able to connect with people when you reveal yourself.
1
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And I think when you do that, you can create incredible things together.
1
SPEAKER_00
 as opposed to just coming from a surface level.
1
SPEAKER_02
Right, right.
1
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And you don't feel like you lost strength or power from doing that?
1
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Or did you have moments of it?
1
SPEAKER_00
I feel like I've let go of relationships that maybe weren't in alignment to the vision I had now moving forward.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And I've built a stronger, deeper community of people that are willing to go to the same place.
1
SPEAKER_00
And that's been a really cool thing.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
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You said an important thing as you were talking about that, which is, you know, you can't like be doing this all the time.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I do think it's important to say that, right.
1
SPEAKER_02
And there's even data showing that, you know, in certain circumstances, like if you're, if you're, let's say the boss, you're the person who's,
1
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 under you may not actually want you to be telling them everything that you might be going through.
1
SPEAKER_02
It might make them really uncomfortable and they might start to view you as a little bit less capable.
1
SPEAKER_02
So that's just one of those unfortunate realities that are also important to kind of lay out there.
1
SPEAKER_02
We need to get to a place where those realities live side by side with being able to show up with all our different emotions.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And it's also, yeah, you don't have chronic vulnerability where it's like all day long you're coming from a sad, vulnerable, hurt place.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's like at some point you have to get into a different emotion, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
And have some courage and have some joy and express play and beauty and wonder and awe and love and connection.
1
SPEAKER_00
And maybe there's vulnerability in that and maybe there's not.
1
SPEAKER_00
But staying in kind of chronic sadness will keep you from a lot of the joys of life.
1
SPEAKER_02
 Yeah, I mean, we actually found, so in the book I developed this bittersweet quiz that you can take to figure out how prone you are to these states of bittersweetness.
1
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And I developed the quiz along with Scott Barry Kaufman, who I know is also a friend of yours.
1
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He's incredible.
1
SPEAKER_02
He's so great.
1
SPEAKER_02
And David Yadin, a psychologist at Johns Hopkins.
1
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And so we ran all these different correlations to figure out
1
SPEAKER_02
 if you tend to be prone to this bittersweet kind of acceptance of joy and sorrow, what else goes along with that?
1
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And what we found, to your point, is that people who are high in
1
SPEAKER_02
 in bittersweetness are also high in states of awe and wonder and spirituality.
1
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And so.
1
SPEAKER_00
When you have sadness and joy.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
When you can access both.
1
SPEAKER_02
When you can access both.
1
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Because what it's really saying, if you can access both, is that you're kind of open and receptive to everything that the world brings.
1
SPEAKER_02
And you're open and receptive to yourself and to all your different emotional states as opposed to
1
SPEAKER_02
 like only being in sadness, which is probably, there's probably something about joy that you're afraid of or something like that.
1
SPEAKER_02
Or if you're only willing to go to a state of cheerfulness, it's probably because you're afraid of where sadness can take you.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's interesting, I had two interviews recently, one where I was on someone else's show and then someone who came on here, and both the individuals said that they hadn't cried in over a decade.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And they said this in the interview, and they both said, I acknowledge it's something I want to work on.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's something, I know there's something there, and I want to figure out what it is.
1
SPEAKER_00
But if someone...
1
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 And they're two great people, inspiring, kind people, but both very driven, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
Driven for growth, business results, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
Where do you think that might come from if someone hasn't tapped into it yet or blocks the ability to feel the emotion of sadness, crying, tears, sorrow?
1
SPEAKER_02
 I mean, of course it's different for everyone, but I think for a lot of people, there is, there's a fear of like, if I go to that place, I might never be able to come out again.
1
SPEAKER_00
Really?
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
I hear that from a lot of people, you know, I'll be like, I'll be stuck there.
1
SPEAKER_00
Be sad forever.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
And of course it doesn't have to be that way at all.
1
SPEAKER_02
But, but I think there is a fear that many people have, or just like, yeah, like just not wanting to,
1
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 not wanting to look at it.
1
SPEAKER_00
Why do you think it's so scary to look at sadness for some people?
1
SPEAKER_02
Well, I mean, sadness doesn't feel good, right?
1
SPEAKER_02
It just by its nature.
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I don't think it feels good either.
1
SPEAKER_02
 So it's scary to look at anything that's painful or it can be scary.
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean, it's different for different people.
1
SPEAKER_02
I actually find it scarier or let's say more difficult to not talk about things that are so plainly true and right in front of us.
1
SPEAKER_02
To me, that would be the hard thing.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Yeah, to just stuff it or to sweep it under the rug.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
And not expose it.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's like it's right over there, so how can you not talk about it?
1
SPEAKER_00
The elephant is right here.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
1
SPEAKER_00
If someone listening or watching hasn't been able to tap into that emotion, what do you think is a strategy or something they could do to start practicing getting there and feeling safe to go to those places without thinking they're going to be trapped there?
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it's a really good question.
1
SPEAKER_02
 So I would start by looking for expressions of it that feel
1
SPEAKER_02
 not so threatening to you.
1
SPEAKER_02
You know, and that might be music.
1
SPEAKER_02
Like a sad song or... Yeah, which is actually how I got into this whole topic in the first place was because I have this crazy intense reaction to sad music of feeling not actually sad when I hear it, but more like completely connected to humanity because it feels like the music is expressing something that all humans express and then turning it into something beautiful, which is something
1
SPEAKER_02
 humans have the capacity to do.
1
SPEAKER_02
You know, we take something, we look at something painful and we want to turn in the direction of meaning.
1
SPEAKER_02
You know, like after 9-11, suddenly all these people are signing up to be firefighters.
1
SPEAKER_02
And after the pandemic, they're signing up for medical school.
1
SPEAKER_02
Why do we do that?
1
SPEAKER_02
We do that because we look at something painful and there is this human impulse to transform it into meaning.
1
SPEAKER_02
So the strategy for people you're talking about would be,
1
SPEAKER_02
 to find expressions of human sorrow that also feel meaningful and uplifting.
1
SPEAKER_02
And they're there everywhere, whether it's in music or art or religion.
1
SPEAKER_02
I think sports is also another great one.
1
SPEAKER_03
Absolutely.
1
SPEAKER_02
 Like, it's been really interesting, right, how since around, what, the 1970s or 80s, suddenly sports coverage became not only about studying the mechanics of the game and who won and who lost, but suddenly we're telling emotional stories about all the players.
1
SPEAKER_00
Their childhood, their parents.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah, the pain they had to overcome to get to where they are, all of it.
1
SPEAKER_02
 So I think for everybody, there are different portals or gateways that they can kind of go through to get to this state of a kind of elevated connection with other people through accepting it all.
1
SPEAKER_00
What is the thing that you think all people want the most, but they're also the most afraid of?
1
SPEAKER_02
Love.
1
SPEAKER_02
 Yeah, I think that's what everyone really wants the most.
1
SPEAKER_02
They want a kind of perfect and unconditional love.
1
SPEAKER_00
Why are they afraid of love?
1
SPEAKER_02
Because they're afraid that they're not going to get the true love that they long for.
1
SPEAKER_02
 you know, like you described it, right?
1
SPEAKER_02
Like six months, you got a great six months, got a great run, and then you hit that wall.
1
SPEAKER_02
And probably that wall would come with a huge sense of like a crushing disappointment, right?
1
SPEAKER_02
Like I had love and now I don't.
1
SPEAKER_00
Now it's gone, and how do I get back to it?
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
It always looked like, how do I get back to that?
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
1
SPEAKER_02
So I think that's what people are fundamentally longing for.
1
SPEAKER_00
How can people get to a place
1
SPEAKER_00
 of fully loving themselves and feeling whole so that they have that unconditional love with themselves all the time and they don't need to seek it in someone else or something else.
1
SPEAKER_02
Right, right.
1
SPEAKER_02
One of the important things that I think most people need to do is internalize
1
SPEAKER_02
 their parent.
1
SPEAKER_02
You can pick your mother or father, whoever it was who most represented a deep love to you.
1
SPEAKER_02
Or if you didn't have such a parent, it doesn't have to be even someone you know.
1
SPEAKER_02
It could be the Virgin Mary.
1
SPEAKER_02
It could be a representation of love.
1
SPEAKER_02
And to really internalize that
1
SPEAKER_02
 being that essence as part of you and carry it with you where you go and be able to speak to yourself in the words of that nurturant parent figure, especially when you need it most.
1
SPEAKER_02
And ultimately you'll need it less and less because it'll just become, you know, absorbed into you.
1
SPEAKER_02
But I think really to be like, to literally be able to speak to yourself the way a parent would speak to a kid who needs encouragement, you know, like literally say the words.
1
SPEAKER_02
And like if, if your parent figure,
1
SPEAKER_02
 spoke to you or you wish they had spoken to you with specific terms of endearment, use those terms of endearment for yourself.
1
SPEAKER_02
No one has to hear you do it, but do it in your mind or write it down.
1
SPEAKER_02
Speak to yourself that way until it becomes part of you.
1
SPEAKER_00
How long does it take for someone to get whole?
1
SPEAKER_02
 it depends where they're starting from, you know, and we're all on the journey to some degree, um, forever.
1
SPEAKER_00
Is there a process?
1
SPEAKER_00
If someone's saying, I feel like I'm a half a person or I feel like I'm a fracture of who I should be, what would you say is the process or the method they could take to start rebuilding and reshaping their identity or worth to where they feel, Oh, I'm a whole person and I can feel a wide range of emotions and that's okay.
1
SPEAKER_02
 Yeah, I'd say little by little by little, like just the way we were saying with the public speaking, you know, to just take it like one step every single day, you know, whatever it is.
1
SPEAKER_02
And it's hard to speak in generalities because everyone's lack of wholeness looks very different.
1
SPEAKER_02
But, you know, like if your thing is
1
SPEAKER_02
 a fear, take one little step in the direction of overcoming that fear.
1
SPEAKER_02
Or if your thing is not being able to open up to people, let's say, because you're afraid of what might happen.
1
SPEAKER_02
If you really open up, take one little step every day.
1
SPEAKER_02
Have a little bit more openness.
1
SPEAKER_00
I like that.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's interesting.
1
SPEAKER_00
When I started opening up about sexual trauma as a child, I remember I did it in a workshop first to a group of people that I didn't really know, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
 It was the scariest thing I'd ever done, but I was also like, okay, I may never see these people again, so who cares, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
It took a lot of courage to do, and it was after two weekends with this group of people.
1
SPEAKER_00
But afterwards, I remember saying, oh, shoot, okay, how do I tell this to my family or my best friends?
1
SPEAKER_00
You know?
1
SPEAKER_00
 they may disown me, or they may judge me, or who knows, and that's a scary thing to open up and say how I feel.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I remember talking to a therapist friend at the time, and I said, what do I do in this situation?
1
SPEAKER_00
She said, go to the person you feel like will receive this the most first.
1
SPEAKER_00
You feel like it's the most open.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Don't say this to the person who's gonna be resistant to hearing it first.
1
SPEAKER_00
To the person you feel most open to build baby steps, just like you were talking about.
1
SPEAKER_00
And ask each family member, ask them this question first, to see if it's appropriate to tell them.
1
SPEAKER_00
Ask them, is there anything that I could ever do or say that would make me not love you?
1
SPEAKER_00
Or that would make you not love me?
1
SPEAKER_00
Is there anything I could ever do or say that would make you not love me?
1
SPEAKER_00
And ask them that first and see how they respond.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And so I started asking my family members one by one this question.
1
SPEAKER_00
I said, hey, I've got something I want to share, but is there anything, but I'm kind of nervous.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'm nervous to share with you.
1
SPEAKER_00
I feel really raw right now.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I want to know, is there anything that I could ever do or say in my life that would make you not love me?
1
SPEAKER_00
 And each one of them were like, absolutely not, there's nothing, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
So then it gave me permission one by one to build that courage to feel like I'm healing that relationship with myself and with them by revealing it.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I think that approach, it worked for me, so I think that's a good approach.
1
SPEAKER_02
 Yeah, and then you got to the point where you shared it with the public, and you couldn't say to the public, is there anything that I could do that would make you not love me?
1
SPEAKER_02
But it must be that by that point, you loved yourself enough that you didn't need to ask that question.
1
SPEAKER_00
I loved myself enough, and I knew that I had my friends and family there, even if the world hated me or thought I was a loser or something.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was like, OK, well, at least I've got my friends and family.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, I need to do this.
1
SPEAKER_00
 because if it could help one person heal, it'd be worth it.
1
SPEAKER_00
Even if I lose everything in my business, it would be worth it.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I also thought to myself, I have a responsibility because the more I started to study this,
1
SPEAKER_00
 the more I realized that men everywhere were suffering.
1
SPEAKER_00
One in six men had been sexually abused.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's the statistic in America, one in six men.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's one in four for women, which is obviously more, but women in general have a place to share and have a place to...
1
SPEAKER_00
 have support to talk about it, whereas I didn't know any man who had talked about it.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so men were just suffering and then using anger as their way to share and express themselves.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was thinking if men could have a place to share this pain without anger.
1
SPEAKER_00
 or through anger in a healthy way, then men could heal and relationships could heal in the world as well.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, if I don't do that, then I know I have the ability to potentially help someone and I'm not doing it because I'm scared.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then it was like this nagging thing for six months.
1
SPEAKER_00
It was like, you gotta do this.
1
SPEAKER_02
 And so after six months, you kind of like... After six months, then I... Went over the cliff.
1
SPEAKER_00
I remember I recorded a session, I called Jonathan Fields.
1
SPEAKER_00
I said, Jonathan, and I called Glennon Doyle, and I asked her for some advice as well on this.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I called Jonathan, I said, listen, I'm thinking about doing this, and will you interview me, or will you guide me talking about it on my show?
1
SPEAKER_00
 so that I can get it out there, because he's a very spiritual, grounded human being.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was like, can you just create a safe space for me to talk about it and ask me questions and guide me?
1
SPEAKER_00
Because I was like, I don't know how to do this on my own.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I reached out to him, he helped me, and then I reached out to Glennon.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then I waited another three months after I recorded it, because I was just...
1
SPEAKER_00
 should I put this out there?
1
SPEAKER_00
Glennon Doyle helped me write the article and the whole thing to put it out there, because I didn't want it to go out in a way that was anything but in service.
1
SPEAKER_00
I didn't want people to think it was some ulterior motive.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was just like, here's what I'm doing.
1
SPEAKER_00
I want to help men and create a space.
1
SPEAKER_00
But I like your approach, your method of baby steps until you feel more whole and love yourself more and feel comfortable.
1
SPEAKER_00
 before you take the bigger steps.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's little by little by little.
1
SPEAKER_02
Like that, that really is how we change with everything.
1
SPEAKER_02
Right.
1
SPEAKER_02
Um, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
And to know, I mean that there's a psychologist at Stanford, her name is Laura Carstensen and, um, and she's done all this research showing that when people are more in touch with life's fragility, like they've accepted it, that,
1
SPEAKER_02
 all these other things come with that state.
1
SPEAKER_02
They become less angry, they have more gratitude, they start focusing on meaningful relationships and activities of meaning.
1
SPEAKER_02
And she first saw this in older people, because when you get to be 70s or 80s, you know that life is fragile, you know you only have a few years left at that point.
1
SPEAKER_02
 But then she started noticing that she was finding this also with younger people who had had life circumstances that had made them have to face fragility.
1
SPEAKER_02
So I think like just knowing that, you know,
1
SPEAKER_02
 There's so much research out there.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's like all our wisdom traditions, they all tell us that going down this path takes you to a place of more meaning and more acceptance.
1
SPEAKER_02
And you kind of just have to trust that.
1
SPEAKER_00
There's a, I think the country of Bhutan, I don't know if you've heard of this, but they think about their death five times a day.
1
SPEAKER_00
They reflect on it for a moment five times throughout the day.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I'm sure there's different countries or religions that do this.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And I think it's really powerful if you create different moments in your day.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think someone has a tattoo that says like, you know, you're gonna die.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it's like just looking down at your wrist or looking at a reminder, an alarm come up five times a day that's like, this will all end.
1
SPEAKER_00
Allows you to focus on perspective, allows you to feel deeper, allows you to have urgency in your life, allows you to say the things you need to say and not hold back, all these different things.
1
SPEAKER_02
 Yeah, I actually started doing that.
1
SPEAKER_02
Really?
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, because I was writing about that practice while I was working on Bittersweet.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I thought, okay, you know, and I read about all these people doing it, like the Stoics would do it, or like these grand generals in ancient Greece, they would win a battle.
1
SPEAKER_02
And they would be like marching victoriously through the amphitheater.
1
SPEAKER_02
And they would have a guy going along with them at the back of their horse saying,
1
SPEAKER_02
 you're going to die.
1
SPEAKER_02
Um, so that they would never lose sight of that.
1
SPEAKER_02
So I was like, okay, you know, what would this mean if I tried this?
1
SPEAKER_02
And it led to so many just differences in how I spent my time.
1
SPEAKER_02
Like I noticed at the time I was doing it, my kids were pretty little and we had this bedtime ritual and I was also really busy at that time.
1
SPEAKER_02
So,
1
SPEAKER_02
 Truthfully, even though I loved the bedtime ritual, it was really hard for me not to be checking my phone.
1
SPEAKER_02
It would be like, you know, when my sons would like look away for a minute and I'd be like, okay, did I get an email?
1
SPEAKER_02
But then I started doing this practice and it completely changed it.
1
SPEAKER_02
Like I would literally say to myself, you know, you might not be here tomorrow.
1
SPEAKER_02
He might not be here tomorrow.
1
SPEAKER_02
We have no idea.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I didn't feel freaked out or anything.
1
SPEAKER_02
It didn't make me anxious.
1
SPEAKER_02
It was more just like,
1
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 A reminder.
1
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
1
SPEAKER_02
And then I just started leaving the phone in another room and it wasn't like an act of willpower.
1
SPEAKER_02
It was like my perspective just totally shifted.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I think there's a story about Marcus Aurelius that he would bring someone with him to walk through like the town because everyone was praising him.
1
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
 and they brought someone with him to say that you're just a man, like whispering in his ear constantly to remind him of like not to get too high on yourself and think you're like this godlike because you can die just like everyone here.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's interesting, right before you came in I was talking to some of the team and I was saying, you know, a couple years ago I looked up a stat.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was just like, I'm curious how many people die every day in the world.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's about 150,000 people die every day.
1
SPEAKER_00
 On average, 150,000 to 180,000 on average in the world that they calculate.
1
SPEAKER_00
It might be a little more, a little less, but I was like, 150,000 people died today and we're not one of them.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's a blessing.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's the ultimate gift, we're still here today.
1
SPEAKER_00
150,000 people, that's a...
1
SPEAKER_00
 That's two football stadiums that didn't wake up, and we did.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so there's perspective there, and it's finding those moments, whether it's five times a day reminding yourself you're gonna die, or just every day waking up and realizing you're not one of the 150,000 people that didn't wake up.
1
SPEAKER_00
Something to create that perspective, I think will also,
1
SPEAKER_00
 create more sweetness in our life.
1
SPEAKER_00
When there is, because like you said, there's going to be, you started writing this before the pandemic.
1
SPEAKER_00
But there's going to be pain, loss, sadness, heartache, suffering, no matter what in life.
1
SPEAKER_00
There's going to be challenge.
1
SPEAKER_00
There's seasons of beautiful joy and everything's working out and other seasons where bam, everything hits you at the same time it seems like.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And so when those moments happen, which they will for all of us, it sounds to me like we don't wanna suppress our emotions.
1
SPEAKER_00
We also don't wanna go down a dark hole of sadness for forever, but we wanna be able to experience the full range of emotions in a healthy way, is what I'm hearing you say.
1
SPEAKER_02
 Yeah, and the flip side of what you just said is it's also the case that when we're going through times that do feel like they're tilted towards the dark, there's also always joy there.
1
SPEAKER_02
That's the thing.
1
SPEAKER_02
If you're really in touch with joy and sorrow at all times, we were talking before about how I dedicated the book to Leonard Cohen, and the epigraph is the line from his song Anthem that there's a crack in everything,
1
SPEAKER_02
 That's where the light gets in.
1
SPEAKER_02
So to be able to remember that also, you know, even at the darkest times, there's always that light coming through and it's always available to us.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I think there's, you know, what's the Japanese art?
1
SPEAKER_02
 Oh, wabi-sabi, is that what you're thinking of?
1
SPEAKER_00
Or it's called when something breaks and they put it back together with gold.
1
SPEAKER_02
Oh, that's kintsugi.
1
SPEAKER_02
Kintsugi, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
I don't know if I'm pronouncing it correctly, but yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Kintsugi or something, yeah, where it's like, OK, here's something that broke.
1
SPEAKER_00
There's a lot of sadness.
1
SPEAKER_00
Let's actually make it more beautiful, the cracks, by filling in the cracks.
1
SPEAKER_02
Exactly, exactly.
1
SPEAKER_00
With gold or whatever they do.
1
SPEAKER_00
 this paint was actually, oh, it's actually got this more beautiful character now, because it's not perfect.
1
SPEAKER_00
There is fragility to it.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and that's what I would say to people who are afraid that if they go in that direction, they'll never be able to come out again.
1
SPEAKER_02
That's not actually what all these wisdom traditions teach.
1
SPEAKER_02
They teach the opposite, that there's always a way to turn in the direction of beauty.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
When I went to
1
SPEAKER_00
 I studied meditation at different places, but when I went to India to study for a few weeks, they talked about, this place I went to talked about, there's two states of being, a suffering state, or an energetic state of suffering, or a beautiful state, a state of beauty, which could be gratitude, joy, love, peace.
1
SPEAKER_00
 you know, all these different things, where suffering could be, you know, sadness, anger, resentment, fear, anxiety, suffering state.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And they taught that the best way to get out of suffering and into a beautiful state is to stop thinking of self in terms of like, oh, why is this happening to me?
1
SPEAKER_00
And actually putting attention on service, giving, not on why am I not getting something that I want?
1
SPEAKER_00
Instead, creating that in the world and giving and removing from suffering into a beautiful state by your action of giving and service.
1
SPEAKER_00
 It's something that I think that when we are, I've been curled up in a ball many times in my bed in my early 20s and my teens, because I didn't know how to manage emotions.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I was always focused on me.
1
SPEAKER_00
Why is this happening to me?
1
SPEAKER_00
Why did I not get what I wanted?
1
SPEAKER_00
Why did this person hurt me?
1
SPEAKER_00
Why this to me?
1
SPEAKER_00
And I would just sit there and being sad.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I would go down a dark hole for many days sometimes.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And it wasn't until I said, okay, this sucks, this is unfortunate, but how can I use this for good?
1
SPEAKER_00
That's when I was able to get out of it.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I mean, that's what your whole life has been.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I bet you every single person who you've admired or used as role models for yourself and for others along the way,
1
SPEAKER_02
 I bet you every single one of them that the narrative, the overarching narrative is that they took some kind of pain and turned it into something else.
1
SPEAKER_02
And that's like the ultimate goal.
1
SPEAKER_02
That's the ultimate goal.
1
SPEAKER_02
Like I say, whatever pain you can't get rid of, make that your creative offering.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's the thing.
1
SPEAKER_00
Give me an example.
1
SPEAKER_02
 Oh gosh, there's so many.
1
SPEAKER_02
Okay, so there's one story I tell in the book about Maya Angelou.
1
SPEAKER_02
So she had such a harrowing childhood.
1
SPEAKER_02
She and her brother were effectively abandoned by their parents who sent them off to live with
1
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 relatives and she faced terrible racism and she was raped when she was eight years old, like terrible stuff.
1
SPEAKER_02
And like it was so bad that she literally stopped talking for five years.
1
SPEAKER_02
She did not speak to anybody besides her brother.
1
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Five years, not a word.
1
SPEAKER_02
 And then when she's like 13 years old, and she writes about this in her memoir, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings.
1
SPEAKER_02
When she's about 13, this woman takes her under her wing and starts reading to her from A Tale of Two Cities.
1
SPEAKER_02
 And Angela recalls how the words sounded like music in the way that this woman said them.
1
SPEAKER_02
And there's also this amazing detail that she describes about the woman.
1
SPEAKER_02
She says, like she was this very lovely, elegantly turned out person, very gracious.
1
SPEAKER_02
 She said she often smiled, but she never laughed.
1
SPEAKER_02
So it was kind of like this allusion to the fact that the woman herself had been through whatever it was.
1
SPEAKER_02
And the woman succeeds in opening up the young Maya, and so she then starts putting forth her own, you know, memoirs and plays and poetry and everything that she did.
1
SPEAKER_02
 And there's an amazing twist to the story, which is that 30 years later, there was this other little girl who grew up in a situation that was almost like uncannily like the young Maya's.
1
SPEAKER_02
And she reads Maya's memoir, Angela's memoir, and she says, oh my gosh, that's me.
1
SPEAKER_02
And she can't believe that there's another person out there who's had her story and transformed it into something else.
1
SPEAKER_02
And that little girl who was reading that memoir was Oprah.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Wow, that's cool.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
And so that's just like one example, but I think there's almost no heroic figure that we admire where if you scratch the surface of your life, you wouldn't find some version of that same story.
1
SPEAKER_02
Like that's really the, we hear about the hero's journey.
1
SPEAKER_02
That's what the hero's journey really is.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Wow, yeah, someone once said that in business, you're perfectly suited to serve the struggling person you once were and overcame.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh, wow, that's good.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, totally.
1
SPEAKER_00
What do I need to do in a business?
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, where were you struggling five to 10 years ago that you overcame?
1
SPEAKER_00
Help someone overcome that struggle.
1
SPEAKER_00
You're an expert in that thing.
1
SPEAKER_00
Even if you can only help a few people, it's like get started doing the thing
1
SPEAKER_00
 that you struggled with the most and overcame.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's why you see people in the fitness industry, it's like, I lost 100 pounds, let me show you how I suffered for 20 years with this.
2
SPEAKER_04
 and let me show you how to do this for other people that were suffering, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
It's like... I'm glad you're using the business example because, you know, when I say, like, whatever pain you can't get rid of, make that your creative offering.
2
SPEAKER_00
I'm using that word creative, like, really broadly.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, it can mean anything.
2
SPEAKER_00
It just means, like, you know, bringing something into being.
2
SPEAKER_04
You can write music, you can do painting, you can do whatever it might be.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right, but it doesn't have to be that.
2
SPEAKER_00
It could be, you know, being a fitness instructor or whatever it is for you.
2
SPEAKER_04
 Yeah, I think that's what it is, because there's a lot of people that, you know, struggle with being overweight or obese or something, and then they finally overcome the challenge and get in shape and get healthy and get back a life maybe they wanted or get their self-confidence back.
2
SPEAKER_04
And so that person is perfectly suited to serve other people that were in that situation they once were in.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yes, that is right.
2
SPEAKER_04
And to be a teacher, and to give back, and however they want to create that information, you know.
2
SPEAKER_04
 Maya Angelou did it through a memoir and books and you could do this through a course or you know, whatever it might be We're teaching one-to-one or classes or anything like that.
2
SPEAKER_04
So I think that's what what people can do, but I love that story You know, no one relates to the person that it's not over had some pain in their life It's hard to relate to if someone's perfect
2
SPEAKER_00
 Well, cause we know it's not true.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's just, there's no way that it's true.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so then you're not relating to a real person.
2
SPEAKER_00
That's what it really is.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's not only that they're too successful and therefore like on a whole other plane from us, it's also that like we sense that there's something not authentic about it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_04
And what's the difference between perfect love and unconditional love?
2
SPEAKER_00
Ah, um, well,
2
SPEAKER_00
 I don't know the answer to that exactly.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think that we, I think that perfect, call it perfect love, call it unconditional love.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think it's something that exists.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's a kind of like, we can get closer and closer and closer to that state that we yearn for.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don't think we get there fully in this lifetime.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that accepting that is actually part of what helps us to have
2
SPEAKER_00
 great and enriching love relationships.
2
SPEAKER_00
But yeah, I talk about this a lot in the book, the longing for the state in which, the longing for that state of perfect union, perfect everything, perfect beauty, all of it.
2
SPEAKER_00
 We're born to exist in that state of longing, and we know from all the wisdom traditions that to dive into that longing brings us ever closer to the thing that we're longing for, even if we don't ever fully, fully reach it.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I think the more we accept that,
2
SPEAKER_00
 the healthier our love relationships can be, because otherwise it can be like what you were describing, where you're like, you know, I just spent the first six months with someone and we were in the Garden of Eden, but somehow we got kicked out.
2
SPEAKER_04
Now we're in hell.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now we're in hell.
2
SPEAKER_04
And how do we get back to Eden?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
2
SPEAKER_04
Because you ate the apple.
2
SPEAKER_04
Don't eat the apple.
2
SPEAKER_00
 Yeah, exactly.
2
SPEAKER_00
And you know, it might just be that you were with the wrong person.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
2
SPEAKER_00
But it can also be that, like, it's not really our state in this world exist in Eden forever.
2
SPEAKER_00
And if we expect that, then that can prevent us from having from working from building the healthy relationships that we're seeking.
2
SPEAKER_04
And that's probably why when we hear
2
SPEAKER_04
 a song that is so perfect, or we see a piece of art that just looks almost perfect, or we see a perfect catch on a football game, and you're like, that's when we feel awe.
2
SPEAKER_00
Exactly, because you're like, oh, I just saw Eden.
2
SPEAKER_00
A moment of perfection.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
2
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
2
SPEAKER_04
 Or you have this night with your partner where it's just like everything is beautiful and synchronicities and the connection and the intimacy, it's like this perfect night.
2
SPEAKER_04
You're like, this awe, right?
2
SPEAKER_04
It's the bittersweet.
2
SPEAKER_04
And then the next day you wake up and you're like, you smell her bad breath or something, right?
2
SPEAKER_04
You're like, oh, you know, it's like this bittersweet experience.
2
SPEAKER_04
Searching and yearning for the perfect, the unconditional, but knowing there's only moments of it.
2
SPEAKER_00
 Yeah, exactly.
2
SPEAKER_00
And to know that they're only moments of it is actually like, it's incredibly empowering.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like it makes you love those moments when you have them, um, you know, and not like despair when you don't have them because that's the nature of existence.
2
SPEAKER_04
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_04
Would you say that you unconditionally love yourself?
2
SPEAKER_00
That's a good question.
2
SPEAKER_00
Um, I think it depends on what you mean by it because
2
SPEAKER_00
 I feel like there's a sense in which I do, but if you listened to my inner dialogue sometimes, I have the same issue that I think many people do of like... What do you say to yourself?
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh gosh, I don't know.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like I just said a stupid thing or I didn't say the right thing or I should have done this or I should have done that.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it's hard for me to tell where
2
SPEAKER_00
 that where those voices come from, it doesn't really feel like it's me talking to me.
2
SPEAKER_00
It more feels like, it's like my perception of what some outer force would say, and then I'm grappling with it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Which is why I say like underneath it, I kind of feel like I'm on my own side, and yet those voices are coming from somewhere.
2
SPEAKER_00
Does that make sense?
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, I hear you there.
2
SPEAKER_04
How do you think it would, what would it take for us as humans to stop judging ourselves?
2
SPEAKER_04
 but also have humility and have constructive feedback in a healthy way for ourselves to improve and grow and expand and not think we have it all figured out.
2
SPEAKER_04
How do we get to that place where we're not internally judging, shaming, making wrong, doubting, but also looking to improve, looking to grow?
2
SPEAKER_04
 in a healthy way.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right, right.
2
SPEAKER_04
So it's more unconditional love.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I don't think that there's anything about increasing our self love that brings with it arrogance or, you know, disinterest and growth or anything like that.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think the fact that we tend to see those things as being connected is a huge misunderstanding.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's actually the opposite.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think the more you have true self love, the more
2
SPEAKER_00
 you would be quite humble and quite interested in growing.
2
SPEAKER_00
But there's a technique and a practice that I think is really useful, a meta, I don't know if, loving kindness meditation.
2
SPEAKER_00
I actually write about this.
2
SPEAKER_00
I studied it with Sharon Salzberg, who's one of our great meditation teachers.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it's basically this practice where you wish yourself
2
SPEAKER_00
 and all the people in your life, including...
2
SPEAKER_00
 your easiest relationships, and your most difficult relationships, and then you wish everyone on earth, and you wish the guy at the gas pump, you wish everybody who you're passing.
2
SPEAKER_00
Step by step by step, you're wishing everybody love, you're wishing them well-being, you're wishing them peace and freedom from suffering, and all of it.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it is really transformative when you do it.
2
SPEAKER_00
It feels a little bit formulaic at the time, but I've noticed whenever I do it, then I go out into the world, and I'm just much more likely to beam into that state of mind.
2
SPEAKER_04
 Is it a prayer or meditation or a mantra?
2
SPEAKER_04
Is it a?
2
SPEAKER_00
It's a meditation.
2
SPEAKER_00
Meditation.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
I'm actually putting a version of it up on my website for people who are curious.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, I have my own version of it that I've developed.
2
SPEAKER_04
So you make your own version.
2
SPEAKER_00
You can.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, there's a traditional metta version.
2
SPEAKER_04
How's it go?
2
SPEAKER_00
Here, wait.
2
SPEAKER_00
I'll give you, because I always do my own stuff.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I'll tell you the traditional one.
2
SPEAKER_00
 Okay, so the interesting thing is, so Sharon Salzberg, who taught this to me, she first studied this in Burma.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the phrases that she was given to repeat were, may I be free from danger, may I be free from mental suffering.
2
SPEAKER_00
 may I be free from physical suffering, may I have ease of well-being.
2
SPEAKER_00
But what's interesting is she started teaching this in the States, and all these people were coming up to her and saying, I don't really like using these negative words like danger and suffering and all that.
2
SPEAKER_00
So for Americans, she had to turn it around.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and she made it like, may I be safe, may I be happy, may I be healthy, may I live with ease.
2
SPEAKER_00
You started out asking about self-love,
2
SPEAKER_00
 And what's interesting is traditionally with this practice, you would start by wishing all these good things to yourself before you move on to others.
2
SPEAKER_00
But a lot of Americans have trouble with that.
2
SPEAKER_00
They feel uncomfortable wishing these things to themselves first.
2
SPEAKER_00
Why is that?
2
SPEAKER_00
There's something in us that makes us feel like it's selfish and wrong to be doing that.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think it's because of the way that we confuse self-love with arrogance.
2
SPEAKER_00
 even though the opposite is what's true.
2
SPEAKER_04
What is the difference between self-love and arrogance?
2
SPEAKER_00
 Well, self-love is just wishing yourself well.
2
SPEAKER_00
Arrogance is thinking that you're better than other people, that you don't have to care so much about other people.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's holding them with a degree of contempt, whereas this is much more a practice of acceptance of yourself and everyone around you.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's very different.
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, I think growing up, when I grew up in the 80s, especially in the Midwest, in the sports culture, let's say it was all about winning, right?
2
SPEAKER_04
And you're praised for when you won.
2
SPEAKER_04
 I wasn't praised for getting a third place trophy or a 10th place trophy, I guess like kids are now.
2
SPEAKER_04
It's like everyone celebrated for whatever place, which I get the celebrating the participation, but it was more about, I wish it was more about the effort that people were celebrating, but back then it was like, you either win or you're a loser if you're second.
2
SPEAKER_04
It's like, it doesn't matter how great your performance was, you lost.
2
SPEAKER_04
So everything was focused on doing whatever it took to win.
2
SPEAKER_04
 And so my sophomore year in college, I broke the world record for the most receiving yards in a single game.
2
SPEAKER_04
So no one in the history of the world had ever done something that I did.
2
SPEAKER_04
418 receiving yards in one game.
2
SPEAKER_04
It was more than in any college football game, professional game, high school.
2
SPEAKER_04
 And we lost the game.
2
SPEAKER_04
We lost by like a few points at the end.
2
SPEAKER_04
And I was the last one out of the locker room, beating myself up, focused on what I could have done better.
2
SPEAKER_04
I didn't even know that I actually broke the record until after I got out of the shower.
2
SPEAKER_04
I remember my coach coming in, I was the last one to get out of the shower.
2
SPEAKER_04
And he told me this, and he was kind of like congratulating me, but we also just lost, so it was hard to celebrate.
2
SPEAKER_04
And I was like so confused, because I was like, man, my effort was so good.
2
SPEAKER_04
 It wasn't good enough to win.
2
SPEAKER_04
But I wasn't even willing to celebrate the effort at that time because I was so focused on like you either win or you're a loser and you're not worthy of love.
2
SPEAKER_04
It was kind of like where my feelings were around.
2
SPEAKER_04
 And so I think it's hard to unwind that.
2
SPEAKER_00
I know.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I totally get it.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, both of my sons play sports and I've seen that exact same thing.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, they'll come off the soccer field and I'll be like... You score three goals and you lose, but you're like... Yeah, and I'll be like, oh, well, you know, I know you lost, but, like, those goals were really great, just so you know.
2
SPEAKER_00
And they'll be like, who cares?
2
SPEAKER_00
We lost the game.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I don't know.
2
SPEAKER_00
At the same time, I think that there's a way... I don't think it's wrong to...
2
SPEAKER_00
 want to win or to have things like sports where there's a winner and a loser.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think that's completely consistent with being able to say that the goal is unconditional self-love, even while you might be bummed that you lost the game.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I think we think those two things are inconsistent, because we think, no, if you lost the game, it means you're a loser, as opposed to you're a human who sometimes wins and sometimes loses.
2
SPEAKER_04
 How do we reshape that thought process if we don't get the job we wanted, if we don't get the relationship we wanted, or the person says no to us and rejects us, or we get fired, or whatever, we don't get the deal we want, we lose the game, how do we keep our identity whole and loving and full and not tied to losing or failing at the external things?
2
SPEAKER_00
 it's that just something happened and maybe you did put in enough effort and it happened anyway.
2
SPEAKER_00
Maybe you didn't put in enough effort and you're going to put in more next time.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I think the real mind shift is that we see it as that when we're winning, when things are going well,
2
SPEAKER_00
 That's the main road.
2
SPEAKER_00
And when we lose, that's like a detour off the main road.
2
SPEAKER_00
And now we feel like, oh my gosh, we're stuck in a detour in the hinterlands over here, as opposed to thinking it's all the main road.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's all the main road.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is just part of what happens in life.
2
SPEAKER_00
 I'm going to next time put in all the effort and all that stuff, but not see it as like this fundamentally unnatural state that casts us out into the realm of losers.
2
SPEAKER_00
The use of the term loser has risen astronomically in recent decades, and that's what we've got to figure out how to get away from.
2
SPEAKER_00
You can lose without being a loser.
2
SPEAKER_00
That's really what I'm saying.
2
SPEAKER_04
What is the superpower that an introvert has that an extrovert doesn't have?
2
SPEAKER_00
 There's a power in being able to spend time in solitude.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, like we know with creativity, for example, you can't really do great creative work without quite a bit of time spent alone.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like in our culture, we only focus on the part of creativity that's about
2
SPEAKER_00
 exchanging ideas or going out on stage and sharing your ideas and that's all good.
2
SPEAKER_00
But you also need the time alone, which for introverts comes much more easily.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then like when it comes to leadership, there's a way in which introverts lead where they're much more apt to be
2
SPEAKER_00
 asking questions of the people around them and soliciting ideas and then taking the best of those ideas and running with them.
2
SPEAKER_00
Whereas for an extrovert, what comes more easily is inspiring and rousing the troops and all that, but they can be so dominant or just irrepressible that they're only getting their own ideas and they're not getting in as many inputs from others.
2
SPEAKER_04
So, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_04
And what is the superpower to feeling sadness over joy?
2
SPEAKER_00
 Well, I would call it the superpower of feeling sadness and joy.
2
SPEAKER_00
Both.
2
SPEAKER_04
Just one is not a superpower.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, just one.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's more that in our culture, we know joy is a superpower.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, no one will doubt that one.
2
SPEAKER_00
What we need is to resurrect the power of sadness.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the power of it is, well, as we've said, that it's one of the most powerful ways that we have of connecting with each other to be able to really share and really open up.
2
SPEAKER_00
Humans are evolutionarily designed to do this.
2
SPEAKER_00
 If I see you or someone struggling, we all have a vagus nerve.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's the biggest bundle of nerves in our bodies, and it activates when we see somebody else suffering.
2
SPEAKER_00
We want to help them.
2
SPEAKER_00
We want to help them.
2
SPEAKER_04
We want to reach out, we want to connect, we want to lend a hand.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and this is part of who we are evolutionarily, because we were designed to be able to care for vulnerable infants, and then we came up with this capacity to do that in general.
2
SPEAKER_00
 So the power to connect, the power to be creative, creativity in its essence for most people, it's trying to turn pain into something else or it's trying to get closer to that perfect world that you were talking about when you see the perfect jump shot or whatever it is.
2
SPEAKER_00
You're trying to get closer so you build something new.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it's connected to transcendence and to wonder and awe, all of it.
2
SPEAKER_04
 How does an introvert let go of the need to people please and get back to a place of saying, creating boundaries and saying no so that they can actually stay charged throughout the day as opposed to lose their charge?
2
SPEAKER_00
 So I'll tell you like the mind shift and then I'll tell you like the concrete practice.
2
SPEAKER_00
The mind shift is you have to feel entitled to be who you are.
2
SPEAKER_00
I cannot tell you how many letters I get from people who are like, it's really amazing.
2
SPEAKER_00
They're like, you know, as soon as I started feeling like,
2
SPEAKER_00
 I was not just okay but powerful in who I was, the more successful I became in the outward facing world, like at a job interview or something.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because you're starting to show up as yourself instead of showing up trying to be somebody else.
2
SPEAKER_00
And in terms of the concrete tip there.
2
SPEAKER_00
 Introverts desperately need to be scheduling in recharge time where they get to be alone.
2
SPEAKER_00
For some people it's taking a nap or for somebody else it's taking a walk, like whatever it is.
2
SPEAKER_00
You should be putting that into your calendar as many times a day as you need it and honoring that commitment just as fiercely as you would a commitment to a client or colleagues or whomever.
2
SPEAKER_00
 And if you have trouble doing that, because you feel guilty about it, just remind yourself that you're going to be so much more present for everyone else if you've taken that time for yourself.
2
SPEAKER_04
 How does social media play in with introverts?
2
SPEAKER_04
If you're experiencing all these micro doses of interactions with people but you're not physically around them, does that drain you just as much if you're on your screen interacting conversations all day or does it not?
2
SPEAKER_00
 It kind of goes both ways.
2
SPEAKER_00
It doesn't feel the same on the one hand, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Because it's like, it's still just this one source of inputs as opposed to, you know, a gazillion that you might feel at a party.
2
SPEAKER_00
But on the other hand, you know, as you said, social media is just like, it's really self presentation media.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I think that's draining to the soul for everybody.
2
SPEAKER_04
It's learning to manage that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_04
 What else do we need to know about bittersweet that we can take with us today?
2
SPEAKER_00
Gosh, I would say, so I spent all these years studying all these, what all these traditions have to say about this.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the one thing that they all have in common is the idea that
2
SPEAKER_00
 When we're faced with a pain, there's kind of two roads.
2
SPEAKER_00
One road is to leave the pain unattended to you in one way or another, and then you end up taking it out on yourself, and it shows up as depression, or it shows up as severe anxiety, or you're taking it out on somebody else.
2
SPEAKER_00
 and it shows up as abuse, or passive aggression, or addiction, or whatever it is.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then the other road is to take a pain and, as we said, to try to turn it into something else.
2
SPEAKER_00
Not to minimize what it is, but to turn in the direction of meaning, because that's what we were born to do.
2
SPEAKER_04
 I love this, I'm excited about this.
2
SPEAKER_04
I want people to get a copy.
2
SPEAKER_04
Bittersweet, how sorrow and longing make us whole.
2
SPEAKER_04
I think in a world where a lot of us feel empty, this is exactly what we need to start diving into to feel more whole and to create the practice of
2
SPEAKER_04
 loving yourself with the full range of emotions.
2
SPEAKER_04
Not stuffing, not masking, not hiding, and not staying trapped in one emotion as well.
2
SPEAKER_04
So you feel like you can't get out of it.
2
SPEAKER_04
So I want people to get the book and also check out Quiet for all the introverts in the world.
2
SPEAKER_04
That's gonna be your, you know, essentially your introvert's bible, right?
2
SPEAKER_04
It's like,
2
SPEAKER_04
 It's the go-to on how to know that you're not alone and how to know that there's a lot of power within being an introvert and having quiet.
2
SPEAKER_04
Like you said, I get my best ideas when I'm alone, when I'm not with other people.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, that's interesting.
2
SPEAKER_00
So even for you, you do too.
2
SPEAKER_04
 It's like when I'm on a run or on a walk or when I'm on the drive and I don't have music on.
2
SPEAKER_04
When I'm in silence, I might be in motion.
2
SPEAKER_04
But I'm in silence, I'm not listening to anything.
2
SPEAKER_04
And I'm listening to the inner voice.
2
SPEAKER_04
 That's when all the things are connecting in the brain and the dots are coming.
2
SPEAKER_04
Oh, this idea comes when that happens.
2
SPEAKER_04
So I actually want, I call it strategic messing around time.
2
SPEAKER_04
It's scheduling in time to just play, just to do nothing, to play, throw a Frisbee, just whatever it might be, or to go for a walk.
2
SPEAKER_04
Giving myself that time is where I get some of my best ideas.
2
SPEAKER_04
Because if I'm always productive and doing, doing, doing, that I'm not,
2
SPEAKER_04
 I'm not being and I'm not listening.
2
SPEAKER_00
And you're not generating.
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, I'm not generating from the place of a space, right?
2
SPEAKER_04
It's like when you're always creating, it's hard to come up with the next beautiful idea.
2
SPEAKER_00
I love that.
2
SPEAKER_00
 The amazing psychologist Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, he did this study of creativity and he found that extroverted teenagers who had a lot of creative talent in one domain or another, that they sometimes wouldn't realize all their talent because part of the process requires solitude.
2
SPEAKER_00
And for the teens who just disliked solitude so much, they didn't have the space that they needed to develop.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
 So I worry about that sometimes with our schools because everything is now so group-focused in schools.
2
SPEAKER_04
It's all collaboration group-focused, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
It's all collaboration group-focused, which, like, that's hard on the introverts in one way, but I worry about the extroverted kids who aren't ever getting the training that they need to realize that they can actually thrive in solitude too.
2
SPEAKER_04
 It's interesting because I was so afraid to be alone growing up and I needed to be around people.
2
SPEAKER_04
Because I was early growing up I didn't have friends and so I felt worthless and a loser because no one would be friends with me.
2
SPEAKER_04
 When I had friends, I didn't wanna lose the friends.
2
SPEAKER_04
So I was like, what are you guys doing?
2
SPEAKER_04
Let's do a play, let's do this, right?
2
SPEAKER_04
And I always wanna be around people.
2
SPEAKER_04
And when I got into my 20s, I remember thinking to myself, I don't like the way this feels.
2
SPEAKER_04
Needing to always be around people to feel like I'm good enough.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, because of the word needing in that sentence.
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, it was like I needed to like, in order to feel loved or accepted.
2
SPEAKER_04
I was like, hmm, I really don't accept myself yet, fully, if I'm needing other people to accept me.
2
SPEAKER_04
 to feel good.
2
SPEAKER_04
And so I gave myself a challenge for a couple of years where I was like, I'm gonna go out with myself alone a few times a week.
2
SPEAKER_04
I'm gonna go to lunch or dinner.
2
SPEAKER_04
I'm gonna go to movies alone, which I would've never gone to the movie alone.
2
SPEAKER_04
Never would've gone to a lunch by myself.
2
SPEAKER_04
Would've felt too intimidated or too like I'm a loser just sitting here alone.
2
SPEAKER_04
And I did this for a few years and I got so,
2
SPEAKER_04
 In a weird way, I fell in love with myself for the first time by just appreciating my own company.
2
SPEAKER_04
Sitting there and just enjoying lunch and just being able to observe people and say hi to people, but just being able to be there, go to a movie by myself, have some popcorn alone, and just laugh or be a part of the movie experience alone.
2
SPEAKER_04
And it was one of the greatest gifts I gave myself.
2
SPEAKER_04
 because I no longer needed to spend time with people just to be around them.
2
SPEAKER_04
I could appreciate my alone time and I really value that now, whereas before I didn't because I couldn't accept myself.
2
SPEAKER_00
 Yeah, no, it sounds like an aspect of self-love for you.
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_04
What's it called when you're in between extroverted and introverted?
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh yeah, that's a good question.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's called an ambivert.
2
SPEAKER_04
Ambivert, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_04
Because I love being around people, but I also love my alone time.
2
SPEAKER_04
Right, right.
2
SPEAKER_04
Like I want to go hang out with friends and do activities, but then I'm like, I just want to be alone for like a half day, you know?
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_04
Susan, I'm so grateful that you decided to put this book out, and I really want to acknowledge you for
2
SPEAKER_04
 your mission to serve people, using your gift, using your talent to create a beautiful piece of art to share with others on how they can understand themselves better, how they can heal, how they can grow, how they can connect with others.
2
SPEAKER_04
These last couple of books are really inspiring and impacting a lot of people so I'm grateful for your knowledge, I'm grateful for your
2
SPEAKER_04
 lessons, the challenges you face in your life to make this from that space so that others can understand their lives.
2
SPEAKER_04
It's really cool what you've created and I hope this continues to do well for you with Bittersweet because a lot of people feel empty and this can help them feel whole.
2
SPEAKER_04
So I'm really grateful for you.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, thank you so, so much, Lewis.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's like such a joy and an honor to be here with you.
2
SPEAKER_00
I really appreciate it.
2
SPEAKER_04
 I'm really grateful.
2
SPEAKER_04
I've got a couple final questions.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, sure.
2
SPEAKER_04
But I want to make sure people get the book.
2
SPEAKER_04
I want them to go to SusanCain.net and take your quiz.
2
SPEAKER_04
You've got a quiz on there.
2
SPEAKER_04
You've got a newsletter on there.
2
SPEAKER_04
You've got a course.
2
SPEAKER_04
What's the course about?
2
SPEAKER_00
 It's actually, it's a bittersweet course.
2
SPEAKER_00
And what's cool about it is that it's, it's done through texts that we send to your phone, either through your text, your SMS or through WhatsApp.
2
SPEAKER_00
Nice.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so it's like every morning you wake up and there's an audio message from me, your written message or all different things.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
So it's just like little bursts that you wake up to every morning.
2
SPEAKER_04
 What's it gonna help people with when they go through the course?
2
SPEAKER_00
It's a way of learning to live life with joy and sorrow and then to come out in a more whole way at the end of it.
2
SPEAKER_04
So if we go to susankane.net, they can get all the information there.
2
SPEAKER_04
That's right.
2
SPEAKER_04
The book, make sure you guys get a few copies.
2
SPEAKER_04
This is a question I ask everyone towards the end.
2
SPEAKER_04
It's a hypothetical question called the three truths.
2
SPEAKER_04
So imagine you get to live as long as you wanna live, but it's your last day.
2
SPEAKER_04
 You get to accomplish everything you want to accomplish, experience all the sorrows and joys of life, the awe, the beautiful art, music, all these things.
2
SPEAKER_04
But for whatever reason, you've got to take all of your work with you to the next place.
2
SPEAKER_04
So no one has access to your books.
2
SPEAKER_04
 This interview is gone, it's a hypothetical scenario.
2
SPEAKER_04
Every interview you've ever had is gone, every article, everything, for whatever reason, it goes somewhere else.
2
SPEAKER_04
But you get to leave behind three lessons that you've learned, three truths that you would share with the world, and this is all we have of your message.
2
SPEAKER_04
What would you say would be those three truths for you?
2
SPEAKER_00
 I guess one of them is the one that I already said before, but it's the true answer to the question.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's the idea of whatever pain you can't get rid of, make that your offering, make that your creative offering.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then another one, and this comes from, this is an idea from Quiet.
2
SPEAKER_00
 Well, actually, this idea is really about both books, I would say.
2
SPEAKER_00
It's that I believe there are many different kinds of superpowers on offer in this world.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, we know this from the movies, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
There's like lightsabers, and there's wizards, and there's people who climb up with spider feet or whatever they do.
2
SPEAKER_00
Spider-men?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
2
SPEAKER_00
 And each of us is given different kinds of superpowers.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, you know, you only get the lightsaber, you only get the wizard's hat, you don't get them all.
2
SPEAKER_00
So a lot of the key to life is figuring out what are the superpowers that you have been granted, and using those, and using them well.
2
SPEAKER_04
Amen to that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and not thinking, well, I have to have some other superpower.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, what's yours?
2
SPEAKER_04
I like that.
2
SPEAKER_00
What's yours?
2
SPEAKER_04
OK, that's number two.
2
SPEAKER_00
That's number two.
2
SPEAKER_00
 And the third one, okay, this is a little bit, this isn't like a pithy one-sentence one, but I'm never good at the pith.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so one of the lessons that I learned from doing all the bittersweet research, it comes from the Kabbalah, which is the mystical side of Judaism, and it's this parable, and the parable basically says that
3
SPEAKER_00
 All of creation originally was one intact divine vessel of light.
3
SPEAKER_00
But then the vessel shattered and the world we're living in now is the world after the breakage.
3
SPEAKER_00
 the shards of that vessel are scattered everywhere around us still.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so what we can do in this broken world is everybody's going to notice different shards of light.
3
SPEAKER_00
And what we can do is bend down and pick them up whenever we notice them.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I love this because to me this is like the answer of how to live in a world that contains
3
SPEAKER_00
 like so much tragedy and evil over here, and then so much joy and love and beauty over there, and it can be overwhelming to think, how do I live with both of those?
3
SPEAKER_00
And I feel like this parable is giving us the answer.
3
SPEAKER_00
It's like, okay, don't expect it to be perfect, it's never gonna be utopia, but always you have the power to be bending down and picking up the light.
3
SPEAKER_00
Always.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, that's beautiful.
3
SPEAKER_02
 That's a great three truths.
3
SPEAKER_02
Final question.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
3
SPEAKER_02
What's your definition of greatness?
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh gosh.
3
SPEAKER_00
I don't know.
3
SPEAKER_00
The answer that just came into my head is love and like self love and love of others.
3
SPEAKER_00
That's what I would say.
3
SPEAKER_01
 Thank you so much for listening.
3
SPEAKER_01
I hope you enjoyed today's episode and inspired you on your journey towards greatness.
3
SPEAKER_01
Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links.
3
SPEAKER_01
And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple podcasts as well.
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 I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most.
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And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.
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And now it's time to go out there and do something great.