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Calling all conscious achievers who are seeking more community and connection, I ve got an invitation for you.
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Join me at this year s Summit of Greatness this September 7th through 9th in my hometown of Columbus, Ohio to unleash your true greatness.
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This is the one time a year
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that I gather the greatness community together in person for a powerful, transformative weekend.
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People come from all over the world, and you can expect to hear from inspiring speakers like Inky Johnson, Jaspreet Singh, Vanessa Van Edwards, Jen Cinchero, and many more.
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You ll also be able to dance your heart out to live music, get your body moving with group workouts, and connect with others at our evening socials.
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So if you re ready to learn, heal, and grow alongside other incredible individuals in the greatness community, then you can learn more at lewishouse.com slash summit 2023.
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Make sure to grab your ticket, invite your friends, and I ll see you there.
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Generally, that is the definition of a toxic relationship, is a relationship where love is present, but respect and or trust is not.
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But the love kind of, it s almost like a drug.
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In a lot of ways, we psychologically behave with love the way addicts behave with their substance, which is we justify it, we dilute ourselves, we lie to ourselves.
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And so we have to be very careful.
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Love can be an absolutely incredible thing.
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It s one of life s greatest experiences, but proceed with caution.
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Welcome to the School of Greatness.
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My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur.
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And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness.
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Thanks for spending some time with me today.
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Now let the class begin.
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Mark, you are a three-time, number one New York Times bestselling author of one of the hit books, The Subtle Art of Not Giving Up, as well as many other titles.
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You ve sold over 20 million copies, been translated into more than, I think, 65 or 75 languages now, and you ve reached number one in more than a dozen countries.
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You ve got a
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a film that you ve put out that was worldwide released by Universal Pictures, and you ve got so much more great content.
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Thank you, my man, for being here.
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It s good to be back, sir.
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Very excited.
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I was just telling you earlier that you are looking healthier than ever before, happier, and healed and whole than ever before.
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And as the guy who taught us how to not care about certain things, but really care about the most important things, I m so grateful that you are in a healthy whole place for your life.
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Because I remember saying to you, it was like a few years ago, at kind of the, not the peak, but at the height of this book s popularity probably, and a lot going on all at once, you didn t look energetically as healthy as you are now.
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And I want to talk about that at some point in this conversation about how success is not always tied to happiness, health, peace, love, and fulfillment.
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Of course.
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But what I would love to talk about first is about love and relationships, because you ve been in a healthy, happy relationship, at least based on the video I watched of yours with your wife, for seven plus years.
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You ve written a book about love and relationships.
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You ve written tons of articles about it.
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You ve been single, you ve been in relationships in the past, and now you re in a happy relationship.
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And I wanted to ask you, what is the thing that you believe most people get wrong about love?
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And about happy, conscious love?
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I think the biggest mistake people make is they assume that love is always a good thing.
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Like love doesn t necessarily make your relationship happy.
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It amplifies whatever emotion is already there.
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So if it s an unhealthy relationship, that s full of jealousy, envy, disrespect, the love will actually amplify that.
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It ll make the jealousy even worse.
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It ll make the disrespect more painful.
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If there s happiness, respect, trust, joy, the love will amplify that.
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So it s love by itself doesn t fix a relationship.
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It doesn t necessarily make the relationship good.
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It takes what s already there and multiplies it by 10.
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Wow.
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I ve actually heard that about money, but I haven t heard that with love where you hear if someone gets more money, it amplifies who they are.
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Yeah.
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And I ve never heard that about love.
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Yeah.
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I mean, people, I think a lot of it is just the romantic movies and stories.
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We tend to glorify romance a lot, right?
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We tend to glorify love.
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But think about it.
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Who are the people who hurt you the most in your life?
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People you love.
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It s the people you love the most, right?
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And it s not just romantic partners.
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It s parents, siblings, kids.
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Like it s... Brands, yeah, yeah.
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The more you love somebody, the more vulnerable you are.
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Because the more any sort of pain or disrespect or antagonism, it just gets amplified.
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Interesting.
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Have you ever felt in a lot of pain in?
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In your current relationship with your wife and we felt like of course really yeah, of course I Mean it s Here s the thing like but you guys are happy.
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Yes.
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It s healthy, right?
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Yes, so it s pain and conflict is
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normal across all relationships.
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I mean, humans are just... We re human, right?
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So we re gonna pick fights and one day she s gonna be cranky or one day I m gonna be stressed out and turn around and take it out on her.
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Like, it s... There s no such thing as a relationship that you don t have... bumps in the road or some sort of conflict.
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What determines whether a relationship is healthy or not is how quickly you recover from those bumps or those conflicts and move on from it.
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You repair, how quickly you repair the pain.
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Now, this is something I think is fascinating because I don t think there s a lot of relationships where
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someone in the relationship, you re kind of at equal levels financially, maybe notoriety or success, but then all of a sudden one person in a relationship gets this overwhelmingly amount of success and awareness the way you did.
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You know, not many people in the world experienced that.
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Sure.
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How did you navigate staying in a healthy, happy relationship?
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Um, or maybe you weren t able to for a period of time.
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As you started to sell millions of copies of your book, you re on all the press, and everyone wants to talk about you, and you re making more money than you ever had before.
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Yeah.
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Where it wasn t as equal financially or success-wise, how did you guys navigate love with you accelerating that?
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It s funny, that really didn t...
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put a whole lot of stress on the relationship.
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And I think, I think a lot of it, so what I ve noticed, and this isn t limited to romantic partnerships, this is every relationship in life.
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And I don t know, maybe you ve experienced some of this, but like when you experience a lot of success professionally, reputation, financially, whatever, um,
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The way the people around you react is very reflective of their relationship to their own wealth, financial success, fame, whatever.
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Right?
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So what I noticed is that.
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People in my life who judged themselves by how much money they made suddenly got weird around me.
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Really?
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Whereas people who didn t judge themselves by how much money they made, they were happy for me.
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They were totally cool with it, not a big deal.
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People who very much judged themselves by how famous they were, how much attention they got, got weird.
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A little bit of jealousy, a little bit of envy.
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People who didn t give a shit about that
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They re like, cool, happy for you, man.
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So, with my wife, we re very fortunate in that that was never... Honestly, she s an immigrant.
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I think moving to the United States and dealing with the culture shock and the cultural differences and language barriers, I think that s been a bigger challenge than simply my success.
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She s just been incredibly supportive, very happy for me.
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You know, no sort of like,
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Now I have to give myself a little bit of credit here because it s, it s not just, she hasn t just been amazing about it, but also I didn t let it go to my head, right?
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Like it s, I think the other side of it is if I came home from a book tour or something and she s like, Hey, can you take out the trash?
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And I m like,
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Do you know who I am?
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This is beneath me.
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How dare you ask me to take out the garbage?
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That also causes problems.
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requires both people to keep perspective about what it actually means.
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Knowing, I mean, experiencing what you ve experienced now with the success and the money that has come.
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You didn t have that before you got married, right?
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No.
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Would you have any different conversations or would you have, I don t know, set more ground rules or anything like that?
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knowing what you know now, or would you give anyone else advice or an opinion about, hey, if one of you is really driven in a relationship to go earn or create or be a famous artist or whatever, and that might happen in the future, here are some things you should talk about to be aware of those changes.
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What would you share?
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I think it would just, I think it s very important to
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have deep discussions about, and this is probably good for any marriage, like whether somebody s driven or not, this is probably healthy for every marriage, is like have some very deep and serious discussions of what money means to each person.
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Some people put a lot of their self-esteem into money.
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Some people don t.
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Some people are very conservative with money.
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Some people are not.
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Some people have a lot of moral beliefs around money, right?
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Like,
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If you make too much money, you should give it all away or you re, that means you re selfish or, you know, whatever.
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Uh, some people don t have those sorts of moral beliefs tied with money.
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So I think it s, it s probably the most important thing is just get very, very clear with your partner.
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Uh, what are each other s beliefs around finances and wealth?
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Especially because, you know, the number one cause of divorce is financial differences.
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Isn t that crazy?
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Yeah.
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So it doesn t matter how much you love someone, but people get hurt or break up because of money.
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Yeah, I guess.
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So love isn t enough.
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It s not enough.
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I mean, I think in your video, which I want to link up where you talk about love and relationships with your wife, which I think is powerful.
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You mentioned how love is, I think, I think your wife said love is 50% of the equation to making a happy relationship, a healthy relationship.
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And I think for you it was like 35% or 40% or something.
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And then I think you mentioned values as being a big part and a few other things.
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Um, do you remember what those were for you besides values and other things that make a healthy relationship?
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My hierarchy for relationships, and this is, I mean, people can find this in my books, my courses, like it s trust and respect are tied for number one.
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Yeah.
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You can,
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love somebody that I think, and I think most people have had an experience in their life where they ve loved somebody very deeply, but they didn t trust them.
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And it doesn t work.
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It doesn t matter how much you try, how much effort you put in, how much you cry and argue and fight.
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It s like, if the trust isn t there, it doesn t work.
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And if the respect isn t there, it s not healthy.
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Two people can love each other, but if they don t respect each other, they re gonna treat each other like,
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Yeah.
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And they re going to justify treating each other like, or they re going to justify tolerating being treated like by saying, well, I love them so much.
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Oh man.
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And maybe it s my fault.
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Maybe I deserve this.
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Right.
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And so at all, I think most of us have been in that relationship before too.
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And it doesn t, it doesn t, it doesn t end well.
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It s, it s rough and it s, you know, to me, that s,
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Generally, that is the definition of a toxic relationship.
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Is a relationship where love is present, but respect and or trust is not.
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And... But the love kind of... It s almost like a drug, like it s...
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In a lot of ways, we psychologically behave with love the way addicts behave with their substance, which is we justify it, we dilute ourselves, we lie to ourselves, we rationalize decisions that we make that are completely irrational.
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And so we have to be very careful.
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Love can be an absolutely incredible thing.
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It s one of life s greatest experiences.
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I think everybody should absolutely experience it, but...
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proceed with caution.
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Right, right, right, right.
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Now you re, I mean, I m having you share from personal experience, obviously not like a love coach and this is not what you study full time, although you ve done a lot of research around this and you ve done a lot of studies and written about this a lot, but how much does your environment affect
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love and how you feel and connect with your partner.
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I m speaking about personally with you and maybe the research you ve done.
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You were in a busy, chaotic environment in New York City and now you re in a different environment, you know, uh, in California.
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How does that change or does it change the connection you have with your partner?
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I think it can.
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Love isn t something you simply sit and feel.
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It s... something you put into action, right?
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Like, you go on date nights together, you, um, go out with friends together, you visit each other s families, you, um...
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go on a vacation together, right?
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Like it s, it s something you do sit and feel it, but you also have to go live it.
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You have to like kind of keep, it s something you have to keep in motion by doing things together.
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And so I think when the environment changes, the nature of those activities you do together can also change.
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And it s been interesting actually moving to LA from New York, New York there, there s so much to do all the time.
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So there s always,
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In a lot of ways, it s conducive to generating romance, because there s always an adventure to go.
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Yeah, stimulus when you walk out the door.
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There s always a concert or a show or some great restaurant that s just opening.
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And so, there s always this feeling of novelty and excitement.
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But there s also a lot of distraction.
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Right.
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So if, if, if something, if something s like brewing under the surface and people, you know, people don t want to address it, you can find a lot of ways to keep, keep your head looking the other way.
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Right.
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Um, so it s, it s been interesting coming here to California and having a way more.
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sedentary, well, I shouldn t say sedentary, but like calm lifestyle, domestic, I think is the right word.
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Uh, there s, so there s less novelty and stimulation and there s also less distraction.
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Like there s, there s things I ve noticed that since we ve been here, things that come up, we tend to talk about it pretty much immediately just because we re like sitting in our backyard and have nothing else to talk about.
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Right.
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So in some ways, that s fantastic because we re very aligned and on the same page.
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But at the same time, you re giving up some of that excitement and novelty and stimulation as well.
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Yeah, the serendipity of the adventure that s happening right now.
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You re planning and you have to drive somewhere as opposed to walk outside and take the subway or whatever.
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Trust and respect, it sounds like, are big for you.
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I know you talked about values also.
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Sure.
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If you have, I mean, we re just speaking hypothetically here, but if you have trust and respect that is there, you got a lot of love.
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Yeah.
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Values aren t really aligned.
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Maybe 30 to 50%, but you re not over 50% on values.
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Is love, trust, and respect enough to sustain a long-term healthy relationship in your mind?
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I think it s a really good question and I think it depends.
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So I don t think you ll ever find two people that are a hundred percent aligned on values.
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Everybody is a little bit different, right?
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So, and you, I think you also want a little bit of diversity of values within the relationship.
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You want to have different standards for, for different things and different opinions about different issues.
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Uh, it just makes life way more interesting.
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there s probably a threshold or a breaking point somewhere.
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Right.
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And it s, you know, one of the examples I ve used in a book before is like, if, if somebody is, uh, a priest and the other person s a stripper, like it doesn t matter how in love they are with each other, it s never going to work.
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Right.
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Uh, if,
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if people have very, very fundamental belief differences, and this kind of comes back to the money thing, I think that the handful of things that seem to come up all the time are differences of beliefs around money, differences of beliefs around, uh, religion, and differences of beliefs, um, around kids and family.
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And I think if you can probably survive not being aligned on one of those,
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But if you re not aligned on two or all of them, you re probably in trouble.
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Like you re probably just going to butt heads over and over again.
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Now, what if someone evolves their values over time, you know, in five, 10, 15 years into the relationship?
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You know what, I actually don t have those beliefs and that lifestyle choice anymore.
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I m going to try something different.
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Do you think the love of the past, the history of the relationship can sustain if it s too much of a conflict around those lifestyle choices or beliefs?
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I think to a certain extent, first of all, everybody does evolve.
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Their values do evolve and change.
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Like I think that s just natural to people.
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I think the challenge within relationships is, you know, generally when relationships start, when you commit to somebody, it s because there is some amount of alignment and it s working.
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But as the years go on,
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If you start to evolve in two different directions, that can cause a lot of strain.
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You know, you often hear.
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married couples that are getting divorced or people who have been together for a long time and are deciding to get divorced, they say like, you know, we ve become two different people or, or we don t, I don t recognize him or her anymore.
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Right.
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Um, and I think that that s a case of like, we were 10 years ago, we were completely aligned and we ve both changed and evolved over the years.
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And
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My partner s gone this way and I ve gone this way.
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And so now there s just this massive gap and we don t feel like we can bridge it anymore.
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We don t relate to each other.
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We don t understand each other.
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We don t agree on anything anymore.
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We don t do the same things for fun anymore.
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Uh, and that s, that s tough.
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And so I think part of the trick is to kind of intentionally evolve together is to be very conscious.
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And this is something that my wife and I try to pay attention to is that
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If I feel myself changing my mind about something very significant in my life.
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about my career, my beliefs around family, relationships with friends, I communicate that with her.
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I m like, hey, I m starting to move in this direction.
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Really?
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Right?
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So that, just so she can be aware and adapt, you know, and just understand like, okay, that s kind of where he s at.
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Huh.
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Is there an example you can share on this in the last few years, maybe?
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So, the two most significant ones that have happened, uh, have been around... First one was my career.
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Uh, when we moved to L.A., I took six months off.
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I was completely burnt out.
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Um, and it s... I really had this period of just...
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I m not having fun anymore.
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I need to take some time off, figure myself out and really decide like, okay, what s this next phase of my career going to look like?
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What s the next decade of Mark Manson s career look like?
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And so I communicated that to her.
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I m like, Hey, I m not going to be speaking, not going to be traveling.
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I m going to be at home a lot.
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Uh, you re probably going to see me on the couch playing video games.
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You know, this is kind of what I m going through right now.
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Right.
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And, and I m probably going to come out of that different with different priorities.
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different metrics of how I m going to make decisions.
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Um, money might be different, right?
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Like suddenly that huge speaking gig in Dubai that I would have taken a year ago to cash that fat check.
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Now I m not going to take it and we re not going to get that fat check.
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Right?
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So it s, it s, you,
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It s important to communicate those things that she understands like, Hey, I m at this pivot point in my career.
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And I m probably going to start going to different directions just so that she knows and like, isn t shocked.
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Right.
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When I don t take the speaking gig and do that.
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On the other front, this ties into the health thing, she was actually really good.
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She was a good influence on me.
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She, so my wife has a couple autoimmune conditions, and they really started, she s been aware of them for a long time, but you know, as things happen, as you get older, things you could get away with.
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You can t anymore.
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Yeah, in your 20s, it s like, you know, it hit me.
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You gotta pay attention and focus on them, yeah.
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You start coming up on 40, and it s just like, they level you.
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And she was starting to get leveled by him.
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SPEAKER_00
And so starting right around the time of the pandemic, she got very, very serious about health.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I, at that time, I had been overweight for a while.
2
SPEAKER_00
My lifestyle was very unhealthy.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was traveling five, six months a year.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was drinking.
2
SPEAKER_00
three, four nights a week, eating like crap, eating junk food, their desserts all the time.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I was aware of that, but it just, you know, on that totem pole of priorities, it was pretty low on the priority list.
2
SPEAKER_00
But she got super serious about it.
2
SPEAKER_00
And she really did, because she didn t have a choice.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, it was... It was affecting her health, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, like, I mean, it was to the point where she could barely function throughout the day if she wasn t...
2
SPEAKER_00
being very, very intentional about what she was eating.
2
SPEAKER_00
She was feeling sick.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so she started kind of going on this journey and really cleaning up her diet and getting her health in order.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I started kind of becoming the beneficiary of that because she does most of the cooking.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I m starting to eat healthy a lot more often.
2
SPEAKER_00
We re not going out as much, not drinking as much.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I m starting to feel better.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, man, I m waking up bright-eyed, bushy-tailed, feeling pretty good, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
And she and I were in communication about that.
2
SPEAKER_00
And she was very clear, like, I need to make this a top priority in my life.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m going to become that person who like doesn t eat dairy, doesn t eat gluten, like doesn t eat sugar.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, Oh, this is, Oh God, this is going to suck.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like my life s going to get so boring.
2
SPEAKER_00
And actually the opposite happened is that it s, I ve kind of followed her on that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Um, she s been a very positive influence in that way in that.
2
SPEAKER_00
I started to notice benefits and I said, you know, my health has been pretty terrible the last five years.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m getting up in my thirties.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like I m not bouncing back the way I used to 10 years ago.
2
SPEAKER_00
Maybe I just hop on, on this train with her.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
And see where it goes.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that s, that s a big part of what happened.
2
SPEAKER_00
And, um, and so now health has become a big priority in my life.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, man.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s interesting because when I,
2
SPEAKER_01
when I saw you like it was a month ago or something or VidCon, I recognized you, but I didn t recognize you.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
It was like, Oh, there s Mark, but you don t look like Mark.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
2
SPEAKER_01
It was like, I was like, what, who are you?
2
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
2
SPEAKER_01
Maybe I haven t seen you in years, but
2
SPEAKER_01
But I d seen your content online.
2
SPEAKER_01
I d seen your YouTube videos.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, you just look like a new human being.
2
SPEAKER_01
And your aura, your energy is vibrant and healthy.
2
SPEAKER_01
And even just looking back at some of your old videos before getting on this interview, I was like, man, you
2
SPEAKER_01
You look a little rough around the edges.
2
SPEAKER_01
I ve been there too at different times in my life.
2
SPEAKER_01
I ve been there as well.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s not like I m always the perfect health.
2
SPEAKER_01
But it s amazing when we make health a value and you have a partner who s all on board with you.
2
SPEAKER_01
My girlfriend s the same way.
2
SPEAKER_01
We re all on board on it.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it s amazing how the relationship, I feel like, is also healthier
2
SPEAKER_01
It doesn t mean it s perfect and there s not disagreements or challenges, but when you both have health as a priority, it s an incredible feeling.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
What have been the benefits you ve seen of her starting this health journey and you aligning to it?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like with the relationship, not just your body and your health.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, it s been so important.
2
SPEAKER_00
First of all, it just makes it so much easier for both of us.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right?
2
SPEAKER_00
I m, if she s not ordering desserts, then that s one, that s one more temptation.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t have to fight off.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know?
2
SPEAKER_00
And, and it s the same for her as well.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like, if I m not like.
2
SPEAKER_00
buying, ordering bottles of wine, you know, every weekend, like she doesn t have to sit there and ask herself, Oh, do I want one too?
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
So it, you really do kind of compound each other s success in that regard.
2
SPEAKER_00
Uh, and I think that s probably true with a lot of lifestyle habits, but it s, it s also just.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t know, we just, so much more energy.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like just more vitality.
2
SPEAKER_00
Uh, it s funny because our idea in, you know, when we lived in New York, our idea of quality time together was going to a happy hour.
2
SPEAKER_00
having a bunch of drinks, maybe going to a show or something, staying out till like 12 or 1.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now our idea of quality time is like going on a hike at like 8 in the morning.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s a great feeling.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s, um, it s different, but it s like, it s not, it s not any less significant.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s, it s less exciting, but it s, it s longterm, it s more
3
SPEAKER_01
meaningful.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, more fulfilling.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
More sustainable.
3
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely more sustainable.
3
SPEAKER_01
Way more sustainable.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Um, I guess it wouldn t be challenging if someone was like, you know, I m going to start being vegan and the other person s meat.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then it s like, okay, that s a different type of lifestyle, but it s just hard.
3
SPEAKER_01
You got to learn how to evolve with the person it sounds like.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Or at least accommodate each other.
3
SPEAKER_01
Accommodate.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Accept.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Not make wrong, not judge.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like, all right, you re vegan now.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like I ll,
3
SPEAKER_01
I ll figure it out, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
3
SPEAKER_01
Who knows, in the next year, she may become vegan.
3
SPEAKER_00
You never know.
3
SPEAKER_00
Beat out LA.
3
SPEAKER_01
What is the thing that you ve learned the most since the rise of your success through books and everything you ve done?
3
SPEAKER_01
What is the thing you used to believe was true before or at the height of those things rising?
3
SPEAKER_01
that you don t necessarily agree with now?
3
SPEAKER_01
Was there a value, a belief, or a thought that maybe you even taught in a book or in a blog or something where you re like, this is the way, where you re like, you know what?
3
SPEAKER_01
Maybe it s not the way.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know what s funny?
3
SPEAKER_00
It s actually kind of the reverse of that, which is
3
SPEAKER_00
So first of all, the answer to your question is, I think early in my career, I was so driven and just set on, like, I had some really moonshot goals in my head and I was just so set on them and so driven to achieve them that I never really stopped and asked myself, like, what after that?
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, you know, let s say you get there.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now what?
3
SPEAKER_00
Then what?
3
SPEAKER_00
thought never even crossed my mind.
3
SPEAKER_00
I think there was just kind of this implicit assumption that, like, once I get there, everything s gonna be gravy, so why worry about it?
3
SPEAKER_00
And the irony is that a huge part of that book is saying exactly the opposite of that, which is...
3
SPEAKER_00
You never get away from problems in life.
3
SPEAKER_00
You just upgrade your problems, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like success isn t the elimination of problems.
3
SPEAKER_00
Success is just getting better problems.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so once my career really took off and I hit a bunch of those moonshot goals that I had dreamed about.
3
SPEAKER_00
I looked around and I still had problems.
3
SPEAKER_00
In fact, I had like bigger problems.
3
SPEAKER_00
In a lot of ways, bigger problems.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that just messed with me.
3
SPEAKER_00
Really?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it really messed with me.
3
SPEAKER_01
How did they make you feel or what did they tell you about life?
3
SPEAKER_01
What did they teach you?
3
SPEAKER_00
I think, again, it s not so much that I believe things beforehand that weren t true.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s just there were things that I didn t account for or think about.
3
SPEAKER_00
And one of those two was that the higher on the mountain you get, the larger the stakes are.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right?
3
SPEAKER_00
So, it s like if nobody knows who your name is, and you post an article online, and people hate it, nobody cares.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, three people, so, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
You just delete the account, open a new one, start over.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, nobody will ever know.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, it s, if you ve sold 10 million books, and you post an article online, and people don t like it, like, suddenly, there s repercussions to that.
3
SPEAKER_00
Did you ever experience that?
3
SPEAKER_00
Uh, I definitely had like some controversy.
3
SPEAKER_00
I ve never been like canceled.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
Uh, but.
3
SPEAKER_00
You had some criticism or negative feedback.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
I definitely had some pieces.
3
SPEAKER_00
Really?
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
That got a lot of blowback, especially back in 2020.
3
SPEAKER_00
Really?
3
SPEAKER_00
Like what was the topic or?
3
SPEAKER_00
People.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s funny, because now in hindsight, I can recognize it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, everybody was just so... Hypersensitive.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, my God.
3
SPEAKER_00
Everything.
3
SPEAKER_00
People off.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, you could say anything, and it would... You were wrong.
3
SPEAKER_00
It wouldn t have anything to do with politics or vaccines or COVID.
3
SPEAKER_00
Nothing.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, it had nothing to do with it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And people find a way to construe it and be like, oh, you re one of those, and like, blah, blah, blah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Um...
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so there were a few moments, like, in that period that I just got ravaged by a percentage of my audience.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
Mainly just because I got... lumped in with some sort of...
3
SPEAKER_00
cause or political group or ideology or whatever.
3
SPEAKER_00
And they assumed that I was part of that and they just went to town on me.
3
SPEAKER_01
How does that make you feel though, once you re at that level of success?
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, it sucks.
3
SPEAKER_00
It sucks, man.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, it just, it is, I can honestly say writing newsletters in 2020 is the least fun my job has ever been.
3
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
3
SPEAKER_00
Cause it was, and I remember talking to my team and it was like, man, I writing
3
SPEAKER_00
Writing a newsletter every week in 2020 was like, it s like being in a boxing ring and getting knocked down and like getting up and knowing you re about to get knocked out again.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because it s just, it felt like you couldn t say anything that you just wouldn t get.
3
SPEAKER_01
ripped apart for.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think this is one of the things that most people don t understand about having a goal be achieved on some level greater than where you re at.
3
SPEAKER_01
Let s say you don t really have that much or no one follows you, not that many people know about you, except for your inner circle of friends and family.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then all of a sudden, a thousand times more people are aware of you, a million times more people are aware of you within a period of a year or a couple of years and it grows.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t think people understand that there s a whole different level of pressure that can come with that.
3
SPEAKER_01
There s a lot of privilege and opportunities and amazing things, but it s like, people don t know that you have to deal with a different type of pressure.
3
SPEAKER_01
And can anyone get away from that pressure with having some type of success?
3
SPEAKER_00
I don t think so.
3
SPEAKER_00
by definition, success is doing something extraordinarily rare, something that 99.99% of other people either haven t done or can t do.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
And once you ve kind of reached that level of uniqueness, it s there, there s a lot of expectation that s put on you.
3
SPEAKER_00
Um,
3
SPEAKER_00
Like it s, you have an audience of millions now, so you re supposed to say something more empathetic or interesting or intelligent or whatever.
3
SPEAKER_00
The other thing that happens too, and I think this is particularly inherent with our line of work, which is having audiences, is that when your audience is relatively small, like let s say 1,000 people or even 10,000 people,
3
SPEAKER_00
that s usually it s going to be a pretty homogenous group, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Like when I started my career, I specifically wrote dating advice for young men.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so my first 10,000 people in my audience, it was all 24 year old guys or dudes in their twenties.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like it s so it s, you know, what s going to piss them off and you know, what s not.
3
SPEAKER_00
And once you reach
3
SPEAKER_00
kind of the level where we re at, where your audience is measured in millions, there s such a massive amount of diversity that it kind of feels like there s landmines everywhere.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, it s like... Oh, man, that s a good analogy.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s good.
3
SPEAKER_00
I can see by the look on your face, you relate to what I m saying.
3
SPEAKER_01
You have to be cautious about what you re putting out there.
3
SPEAKER_00
Totally.
3
SPEAKER_00
Jokes that, in your head, are completely innocuous.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right, right.
3
SPEAKER_00
didn t even thought for two seconds about it.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, there s somebody somewhere in some country that you ve never even been to or thought of that is like extremely offended.
3
SPEAKER_00
And you get that email and you re like, Oh, all right, I ll make that joke again, you know, and it s so I this isn t I always feel
3
SPEAKER_00
a little awkward, like getting into this subject because it s, I never want to look like, uh, you know, the whining.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, woe is me.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
The whining millionaire.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like it s, I wouldn t trade anything.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like I wouldn t go back, but it s, it s, um, again, if I could go back to myself, say six months before everything blew up or took off.
3
SPEAKER_01
What would you have said or what do you wish you would have known to prepare yourself?
3
SPEAKER_00
I would, I wish I would have known, or what I would say to myself is like, you need to start thinking about contingency plan.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, it s like, what if this thing does 10 X your expectations?
3
SPEAKER_00
What if you do hit that moon shot in your 32?
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, then what, what are you going to do?
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
And what, think about the expectations that are going to be put on you.
3
SPEAKER_00
Think about the pressures that are going to be put on you.
3
SPEAKER_00
Um, again, like,
3
SPEAKER_00
didn t think about it until it happened, but a book publisher treats you very, very differently when you ve sold millions of books than when you haven t sold a thing, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Like when you haven t sold a thing, it s funny, because when you talk to authors, authors kind of universally complain, like, my publisher doesn t do anything.
3
SPEAKER_00
They barely respond to my emails.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, yeah, because you haven t done anything for them.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, once you ve done something for them and they care a lot, well, that introduces its own series of problems, which is like every word
4
SPEAKER_01
you write every chapter you send to them is like scrutinized and nitpicked and like, well, we actually don t like this chapter.
4
SPEAKER_01
Why don t you go rewrite it?
4
SPEAKER_01
And it s, it s, um, so it is the stakes rise proportional to the success.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I think there s this assumption that when you are, um, at the bottom of the mountain and there are very low stakes and failure doesn t cost you very much, there s this assumption.
4
SPEAKER_01
It was like, well, if I get to the top, everything s going to be great.
4
SPEAKER_01
I can do whatever I want.
4
SPEAKER_01
I don t have to worry about any repercussions because I ll be rich and famous or whatever.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it s like, actually, in a lot of ways, it s the reverse.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s like, once you have tons of stuff to lose, you start questioning everything you do.
4
SPEAKER_01
And you start wondering if every decision is going to, you know,
4
SPEAKER_01
be the wrong decision.
4
SPEAKER_00
You think that being more successful would give you more self-confidence.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
But for a lot of people, it actually diminishes their self-confidence.
4
SPEAKER_00
After a period of time, they start to second guess the next moves, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Can I be as successful?
4
SPEAKER_00
What if I lose it?
4
SPEAKER_00
I need to be careful about what I say now.
4
SPEAKER_00
Whereas before, people were willing to take more risks when they didn t have anything to lose, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
They were like, let me try this thing and this thing.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then when it hit, OK, let s try another thing.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
How does someone prepare themselves for success to keep their self-confidence and expand it, not dim their light?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, honestly, the thing that ultimately worked for me is to just kind of maintain that bottom of the mountain mindset.
4
SPEAKER_01
And in a lot of ways, you know, there s like a famous
4
SPEAKER_01
cliche about, you know, there s, you get to the top of the mountain, you realize there s a taller mountain behind it, you know?
4
SPEAKER_01
And so it s like figuring out what that taller mountain is, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
And like, and a lot of times you have, you just invent it.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like you just pick something out of thin air.
4
SPEAKER_01
You re like, you know what?
4
SPEAKER_01
Like I ll make this my mountain, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
And it s, but it s, it s finding that so that you can, because there s a certain amount of freedom and maneuverability that comes with seeing yourself as a beginner, seeing yourself as somebody who like doesn t have
4
SPEAKER_01
anything to lose or doesn t have all the answers.
4
SPEAKER_01
And for me, it s been psychologically very, very beneficial to find a way to keep that.
4
SPEAKER_01
and not put all of my identity and self-worth into that, because if I did that, then I d be terrified to get out of bed in the morning, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
So when you were saying that, for those just listening, you re pointing at the book, putting your self-worth and identity into the success of the book, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
4
SPEAKER_00
what should we put our identity and self-worth into if it s not into our accomplishments, our career, or our wealth?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s a great question.
4
SPEAKER_01
I personally believe that you should treat your identity or your self-worth the same way you treat a good investment portfolio, which is you diversify it across a lot of things that are not correlated to one another.
4
SPEAKER_01
So,
4
SPEAKER_01
The same way you want to split up your money between stocks and bonds and cash and real estate, because those things don t always move in the same direction at the same time, you want to put your self-esteem in things that aren t going to go north or south at the same time.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s interesting.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
For someone listening or watching, what does that look like in a day-to-day life?
4
SPEAKER_01
So for me, those categories, you know, I do think it s very important.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like you should have a lot of your self-esteem tied up in your career and accomplishments.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think that that s healthy.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s good.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like your skill sets, the things you re learning and developing and the impact you re making.
4
SPEAKER_01
You spend half your waking hours working on something.
4
SPEAKER_01
So you should care about that something and you should take some amount of pride in it.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like, I think that s healthy, but you know, with that, I would put relationships, um, both family and friendships.
4
SPEAKER_01
I would put knowledge, learning something, having some sort of hobby or interest that you do simply for the sake of doing it.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I think I would throw in there as well, you know, I think for a lot of people you might throw religion or spiritual practice in there.
4
SPEAKER_01
For me, per se, I m not very spiritual or religious.
4
SPEAKER_01
I just kind of see it as charity or generosity.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s like, do good things for people.
4
SPEAKER_00
Being a generous human being, that doesn t mean you have to give all of your time, but just being kind to people.
4
SPEAKER_00
Opening the door, being courteous, being appreciative.
4
SPEAKER_00
Or volunteering, helping somebody out, whatever.
4
SPEAKER_00
I ll speak from personal experience here.
4
SPEAKER_00
Whenever I was in challenging intimate relationships, it didn t matter how successful my business or how talented I was as an athlete, I always felt like my self-worth was a lot lower if my intimate relationship wasn t successful or if it was up and down and emotionally challenging too much.
4
SPEAKER_00
Sure.
4
SPEAKER_00
How much do you think our intimate relationship, and I don t know if that s just me, that I was just really bad at them, but how much do you think our intimate relationship is tied to our self-worth?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like if we are struggling in intimacy, do you think we can still have confidence and full richness of life in other areas?
4
SPEAKER_00
Or does that hold us back a little bit?
4
SPEAKER_01
It s funny because I think it s a little bit of a chicken and the egg thing.
4
SPEAKER_01
people tend to struggle in their intimate relationships because they don t have a lot of self-worth outside of their intimate relationships, right?
4
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And so it s one way you solve that is finding self-worth outside of it and like building that identity for yourself.
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And that tends to help you generate better relationships, which then also give you a lot of self-worth.
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So it s like, it s interesting.
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I feel like intimate relationships are,
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they drive happiness more than any other thing.
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Any, you know, more so than career success, more so than money, more so than, um, hobbies or friendships or whatever.
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It s, it s generally like when you look at all the data on happiness, it s how good are your relationships?
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If they re good, you re probably a happy person.
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And if they re not good, you re probably not happy.
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And those two things are going to, those two statements are going to tend to be true regardless of what else, whatever else is going on in your life.
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Um,
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But I think when it comes to self-esteem, self-worth, I do think there s a, a large component of it does seem to be driven by
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feeling useful in some way, feeling competent, um, feeling that you re, you re able to do something in the world.
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Yes.
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Speaking of success, um, I always forget the exact quote, but I love the, the message that Jim Carrey shared at one of his commencement speeches where he says, I wish everyone could become rich and famous and realize it s not the key to happiness or something like that.
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Um,
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Do you feel like success adds to happiness or adds to feeling not enough still?
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Do you feel like it supports you more in being happier or makes you realize, oh, I m actually deficient in other areas?
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I don t think success in money buys happiness, but it can buy away unhappiness.
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So it can buy away problems that
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would normally derail other people, right?
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So the stress of not knowing if you re going to be able to buy books for your kid or if you re going to be able to meet Rhett next month.
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It buys away those things.
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It buys away a lot of stress and angst.
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But I think if you are psychologically wounded and fundamentally have a low self-esteem or struggle with self-worth issues,
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it s not going to solve those for you on its own.
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And in fact, and there s plenty of examples of people who, you know, get super famous and rich and it s not enough.
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Yeah.
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They get into addiction or drugs or whatever.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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In the last three years, the last 10 years, I ve been on a healing journey for a lot of different things in my life.
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But I was saying the last three years, I ve had some of the biggest breakthroughs in terms of healing psychological wounds that were holding me back in certain areas of life.
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Where do you feel like was the biggest place for you to, that you healed in the last five years in your life internally?
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Was there any wounds or challenges or things that you were like, they were just kind of holding onto that you were able to start releasing and letting go of?
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It s funny because the biggest thing is very related to the physical health.
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So I, I came from, I love my parents very much.
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Love my family.
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Very emotionally dysfunctional.
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And I grew up emotionally dysfunctional.
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And so one of the reasons I came to this career is probably sounds like same reason you came here.
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It s just like, I m just trying to figure my own out.
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So I might as well do it in a very public manner.
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Um, so I can get feedback and hear from other people.
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Uh, so it s so much of my early adulthood was very, very honed in on,
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um, healing my own issues with relationships and intimacy and, and kind of getting the, you know, I struggled a lot with depression throughout my life.
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And so getting like kind of philosophically getting myself straight with the world and you know, what is happiness and what is a good life and what s worth living and you know, all those questions, they, they really, they ate at me for a number of years.
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So when I look at
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teens, twenties, and even through early thirties, like that was very much the project.
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Meanwhile, what s going on externally is I m at all the parties, I m drinking all the booze, I m eating all the food.
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Uh, I am not, I m not saying no to any invitation that comes my way.
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And again, when you re 28 and you re indestructible, like you can get away with that, right?
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Like that s not a problem.
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Yeah.
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And
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I got into my mid-30s and it became a problem.
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I became very overweight.
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So last time I was here, you were talking about my energy, right?
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So last time I was here, LA was like city number six on like a 12-city book tour.
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I think I had done nine interviews in the past 48 hours when I showed up to talk to you.
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I was probably completely underslept.
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I was touring for one book while simultaneously writing another.
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Wow.
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That s crazy.
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Just like an unbelievable amount of stress and pressure and just exhaustion going on simultaneously and not taking care of myself at all, right?
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It s like I m eating Chipotle in the airport or whatever, not even thinking about it.
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And it was interesting.
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So during that, that book that I was promoting last time I saw you, I was, it was like two weeks before the deadline.
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I was under so much stress.
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I actually started having chest pains.
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Really?
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I was 36, started having chest pains.
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And I m like, and I have a history of heart disease in my family.
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So I m like in my head, I m like, I m having heart disease.
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heart attack.
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Wow.
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I m just going to like keel over in this coffee shop at any second, right?
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And then that the chest pains kind of started to turn into a little bit of a panic attack.
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And I went home, talked to my wife.
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She s like, you got to stop.
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Like, go to a doctor.
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Don t mess around with this.
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Don t like you re not working and you re not writing another word till you go to a doctor.
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So I go to a doctor, get all the tests, check everything out.
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Everything comes back.
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Blood work.
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Everything s fine.
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SPEAKER_00
Everything s fine.
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Comes back and then, you know, he shows me all the tests.
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He s like, yeah, you re perfectly healthy.
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You re doing fine.
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By the way, you under any stress lately?
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And I just, that was kind of, some of that blood work came back and he was like, you know, this isn t great, but you re still young.
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So it s not a problem yet.
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This isn t great, but you re still young.
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It s not a problem yet.
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SPEAKER_00
You know, it was a lot of like,
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The path I was on was I was gonna be one of those guys, by the time I m 50, I m taking half a dozen medications and, you know, high blood pressure and all this stuff.
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So, that was the trajectory I was on.
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SPEAKER_00
So, when my wife started her health journey and I kind of went along with it, I was very shocked and surprised how transformative it was for me because I...
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My body was something that I just ignored for pretty much my entire life.
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I was always focused up here.
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For people listening, I m pointing at my head.
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Very analytical in your head.
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Very analytical.
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Not in your body.
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Very, like, reading psychological research, studying, reading books, thinking about relationship.
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You re an analyzer.
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Totally, totally.
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When I started getting the physical stuff in shape, first of all, it was surprising to me how much I underestimated
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I mean, I feel stupid in hindsight, because I m like, wow, I feel 20% better 24-7.
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Like, I ve been like, I feel like I ve been running uphill my entire life.
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Wow.
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And, you know, I m like, God, why didn t I do this sooner?
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But it was interesting because there were a lot of emotional, like a lot, to fix a lot of my bad habits around food and alcohol, I had to take a hard look at some of, there was like some emotional stuff tied up in it, right?
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Really?
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I realized at a certain point that
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Like my drinking, I never craved alcohol, but I found that any social situation I was in, I would drink.
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And it was just very automatic.
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I didn t think about it.
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I didn t question it.
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It was just like, well, yeah, of course I m at a birthday party.
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Of course I m gonna drink.
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And it had never occurred to me, like, you don t have to drink at a social gathering.
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Like that s not necessary.
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And I started like really asking myself a lot of questions around,
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You know, why, why do you feel like you should be drinking at social gatherings?
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What happens if you don t?
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SPEAKER_00
Well, it turns out I don t enjoy half of them.
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SPEAKER_00
Well, what does that mean?
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It means you re hanging out with a bunch of people that you actually don t enjoy hanging out with.
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, why are you doing that?
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SPEAKER_00
Oh, now, now we re starting to get somewhere.
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SPEAKER_00
Right.
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Like now we re starting to get into the real questions, people, pleasing tendencies, feelings of inadequacy, needing, like needing to be seen a certain way.
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Like one of the things that I realized is that in my, you know, in college and in my twenties, I developed a reputation as the party guy.
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Right.
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Like.
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I was always the first one to crack open a beer.
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I was always the last one to leave.
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I was the first one on the dance floor.
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Like it, I was that guy.
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And in my early life, that
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sustained me through a lot of social awkwardness and anxiety and things like that and It I didn t realize like that same thing that I guess I adopted to kind of protect me when I was younger you run that ahead 20 years and it s killing me and so to take that armor off and
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I had to go back and look at, like, why do you feel like you need to be the party guy?
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Well, probably because you feel like if you re not the party guy, people aren t going to want to hang out with you.
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SPEAKER_00
Well, like, why do you feel that way?
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You know?
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Like, so... When was this realization happening?
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How long ago?
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This was all... So, all these questions that I m kind of running through, I would say it was a gradual process over the last two years.
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Really?
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Yeah.
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Wow, man.
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And how old are you now?
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I m 39.
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Interesting.
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I just turned 40 in March and it s like the last three years for me too, man.
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It s just been like asking all these questions, unwinding certain, I want to say relationships, but just focusing to spend my energy more with certain amount of people that
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you know, I don t have to show up for in a certain way.
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I can just be 100% authentic, have the conversations I want, and not feel bad about something or feel pressured, similar, in a certain way, I guess.
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Do you feel part of it is the age?
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SPEAKER_00
Like, it s... I definitely...
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There s definitely a sense, and my wife and I, we talk about this a lot, that there s definitely a sense, she just turned 40, I m about to turn 40 next year.
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Like, there s kind of this sense of like, we don t have time to f*** around anymore.
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It s like, when you re 30, it s like, okay, yeah, you could waste a year hanging out with people you don t actually like.
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But it s like, when you re 40, you re like, no, I don t have time for this.
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I don t, man.
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I don t.
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And I...
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40 didn t hit me where I was like, oh, I need to like, I don t know, freak out or something.
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Buy a Ferrari.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I don t have that feeling.
5
SPEAKER_01
I did buy my first home, but I didn t feel like I need this because whatever, to feel something.
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It more just felt right because my relationship felt peaceful.
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I was like, okay, I can take this step now.
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But I have a buddy of mine who s just turned 40 over the weekend and he was, he wasn t having a crisis, but he was like, what am I doing with my life?
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In some ways, and kind of like,
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re-evaluating a lot.
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Not in a negative way, but I think it hits you.
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Where you re like, okay, there s a new decade that I just completed.
5
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What is important in my life?
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SPEAKER_01
What do I want my time and energy to be invested in?
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SPEAKER_01
What do I want to make sure that I create or generate or do before it s too late?
5
SPEAKER_01
And I think that s important things to ask ourselves at all times.
5
SPEAKER_01
So it sounds like in the last two or three years, you started asking these questions.
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what has been the big realization for you underneath it all?
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SPEAKER_01
I guess... It s funny, I guess once I ve removed...
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You know, I ve been completely sober for almost a year now.
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Um... Congrats on that, man.
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That s big.
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Powerful.
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I m... You know, once I ve removed a lot of the distractions and stopped doing the things that I don t enjoy doing, both professionally and personally,
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I think kind of the biggest realization is just that actually life is and can be incredibly simple.
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Like you really just, you find a few people that you really love and love spending time with.
6
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You find a few things that you enjoy doing and you re good doing them and you find a way to contribute, give back to the world.
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Like it s not.
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It s not rocket science.
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I think that s the other thing is, and this is something that I ve, it s so funny being, writing about these psychological concepts because it doesn t matter how much you understand them, they still sneak up and get you over and over again.
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But it s, you know, one thing I ve written so many times is that it s, when something is emotionally difficult, we tend to assume it must be complicated, right?
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It s like, it s emotionally difficult to break up with somebody.
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So there s got to be like a 17-step procedure that I can learn and rehearse.
6
SPEAKER_00
You know, it s like, no, you just break up.
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Right, right, right.
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It just really hurts.
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It s painful.
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You got to experience it and go through it.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s very simple.
6
SPEAKER_00
Very simple.
6
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Extremely, extremely painful.
6
SPEAKER_00
And what, you know, what I ve noticed, I think, when I was younger, and I had a lot more emotional turmoil and, uh, self-esteem issues and questions about my life and the world, like, I assumed that everything must be super complicated.
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And that, you know, I ve got to, like, get out and go do these 12 things and read a hundred books and, like, take notes on everything and study everything.
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SPEAKER_00
And it s like, you know, now, I kind of look at it, I m like, actually, no, it s pretty straightforward.
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SPEAKER_00
Like, you...
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where you need a handful of great relationships, you need one or two great pursuits in your life, and then you need a way to give back or a positive way to spend your free time, and then you just keep doing that until you die.
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SPEAKER_00
And that s about it.
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SPEAKER_00
Stay healthy.
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Stay healthy.
6
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It s not, there s no secret code or algorithm or anything.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s just you find the few things that work for you and you just rinse and repeat.
6
SPEAKER_01
Consistency with it, man.
6
SPEAKER_01
Over and over.
6
SPEAKER_01
Did you ever have that feeling of like, okay, the subtle art, 300-something weeks on the New York Times bestseller list, did you ever think like, okay, will I ever be able to do this type of results physically again in terms of numbers, success, metrics?
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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That ever mess with you or?
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SPEAKER_00
Big time.
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SPEAKER_00
Really?
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SPEAKER_00
Big time.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s, and I m glad you used the word metrics because, and again, the irony, this is actually in the book.
6
SPEAKER_00
Like I literally talk about this in the book about, there s a whole chapter about be careful how you define success.
6
SPEAKER_00
Choose your metrics wisely because depending on the metrics you choose to measure success, you can get yourself in the trouble, right?
6
SPEAKER_00
So my metric for success, when I was an aspiring writer, when I was writing this book, when this book came out, like, you know, my metric for success was,
6
SPEAKER_00
I want to get to the top of the New York Times, sell a million copies, do all this, right?
6
SPEAKER_00
And what I never considered is that I would exceed those goals by so much that I would almost trap myself, right?
6
SPEAKER_00
And so I quickly, when the book blew up, I quickly found myself in a position of like, oh my God, nothing I ever do is going to be this successful again.
6
SPEAKER_00
Really?
6
SPEAKER_01
That quick?
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SPEAKER_01
Within a couple of months or something?
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SPEAKER_00
I mean, the first year?
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SPEAKER_00
I d say a year or two.
6
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
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there was an immense amount of psychological stress for me.
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SPEAKER_00
Of like, I m 32 and everything is downhill.
6
SPEAKER_01
Oh my gosh.
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SPEAKER_00
Right?
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SPEAKER_00
And like, that s a terrible place to be, but that is genuinely what I felt for a number of years.
6
SPEAKER_01
Even with all the checks coming in and all the success and all the opportunities, you felt that way.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it doesn t, again, it comes back to what are the metric, like, how are you measuring success, right?
6
SPEAKER_00
Like, to me, like, the checks, it s like, great, you know, cool, whatever.
6
SPEAKER_00
After you get it for a while, you re kind of like, okay.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s, money, money has never been a big driver of mine, um, ever.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s, it s more been, um,
6
SPEAKER_00
quality of the work, but also, you know, reach.
6
SPEAKER_00
Like it s, it s always mattered to me a lot that I m reaching a lot of people and I m impacting a lot of people.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I, I tied a lot of, a lot of my definition of success was tied up in that.
6
SPEAKER_00
And this hit so hard and so wide that by that definition, it was all downhill.
6
SPEAKER_00
Right.
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SPEAKER_00
And so I had to change that definition.
6
SPEAKER_00
Like I had to redefine what success is for myself.
6
SPEAKER_00
So I actually, there were probably a few years I fell
6
SPEAKER_00
Imprisoned is probably too strong of a word, you know, imprisoned by the success of subtle art, but like it.
6
SPEAKER_00
I m maybe confined or, uh, trapped or trapped a little bit.
6
SPEAKER_00
At some point, it was actually when I took the time off last year that that flipped, where it was like, it stopped being... Instead of measuring myself against this book for the rest of my life, which makes no sense whatsoever,
6
SPEAKER_00
I started seeing it as just like a blessing of like, look, like this thing is basically bankrolling anything you want to do for the rest of your life.
6
SPEAKER_00
Any like crazy startup idea, any like stupid indie film, like, you know, if you want to go buy a cabin in the mountains, like this thing is going to bankroll whatever crazy idea you come up with for the rest of your life, this thing s bankrolling it.
6
SPEAKER_00
So like, why don t you just be grateful?
6
SPEAKER_00
Appreciate this.
6
SPEAKER_01
Don t be stressed about trying to recreate it.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
6
SPEAKER_00
And to come back to the identity thing, because this was actually tied to this, it was an epiphany of, like, I don t have to define myself as an author.
6
SPEAKER_00
Like, I...
6
SPEAKER_00
It s funny because before I wrote the book, being able to call myself an author was something I aspired to do.
6
SPEAKER_00
I took a lot of pride doing it, especially defining myself as a best-selling author, right?
6
SPEAKER_00
Right.
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SPEAKER_00
I hit a point where I realized, I m like, I don t have to identify as an author.
6
SPEAKER_00
I can do other things.
6
SPEAKER_00
I ve done other things.
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SPEAKER_00
I ve been successful at other things.
6
SPEAKER_00
Like, an author can just be one of many things I do.
6
SPEAKER_00
And as soon as that simple little thing switched in my head, it became very liberating.
6
SPEAKER_01
Oh, man, that s beautiful.
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SPEAKER_01
I ve got a few final questions for you.
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SPEAKER_01
This has been inspiring.
6
SPEAKER_01
I don t know who in my audience hasn t read the book yet, but make sure you guys get The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F***.
6
SPEAKER_01
If you haven t got it, make sure to get a few copies.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s always a big hit.
6
SPEAKER_01
for every family, friend group, community, get a few copies, pass them out.
6
SPEAKER_01
Your YouTube channel, I love.
6
SPEAKER_01
I love the content you re making on there now.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s interesting because you re talking about social anxiety of needing to go out in the past to drink and be liked or be seen in a certain way.
6
SPEAKER_01
I think you were talking about looking a certain way in front of people.
6
SPEAKER_01
And you ve got this new series you re creating on YouTube, which is taking
6
SPEAKER_01
readers out in your community and helping them overcome different challenges.
6
SPEAKER_01
And the first one is with a woman who s got social anxiety, and you re taking her through all these different challenges and adventures to overcome them.
6
SPEAKER_01
And there s a big prize at the end, if you will,
6
SPEAKER_01
when it s not what people think it might be.
6
SPEAKER_01
So I want people to check out your YouTube channel, which is really cool.
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And is that I am Mark Manson?
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Is that on YouTube?
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Yeah, if you just type Mark Manson in YouTube, you ll find it.
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Make sure you guys check that out.
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Get on your newsletter, markmanson.net.
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Get the book.
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We ll have it all linked up as well.
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But your YouTube is a
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is a lot of fun and you re putting a lot of energy, time, resources into making these really cool, almost like a little reality show series.
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So, make sure you guys check that out.
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A few final questions I want to ask you.
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If you could go back seven years, the day this book came out, Subtle Art came out, and you could tell yourself, from this perspective, one thing about love, one thing about success, and one thing about self-worth that you know now, from everything you ve learned in the past seven years,
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to the day this came out, that first day, that first week, what would you share?
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You know what s funny?
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It s one of those things that s like, I don t know if I would have listened to my, you know?
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Right.
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You probably would have.
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You re like, oh, I got to figure it out.
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Yeah, like, this is the thing about giving your past self advice.
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At least my past self would have been like, what do you know, old man?
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A bit too stubborn, yeah.
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Yeah, go back to 2023.
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You said love, success, and self-worth.
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Yes.
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It s funny with love, like, I don t know.
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It s one of those things where like when you.
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when you put it in the words it just sounds very banal and lame you know but it s the steadiness of it over a long period of time it s something that you can t really
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the feeling of security that you have when you ve spent over a decade with the same person and they ve been by your side through everything.
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Like it s something you can t really put into words.
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And obviously you can t find, just go find it down the street.
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Right?
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Like it s, it is something that you literally put in the time for.
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And, um, I, as somebody who struggled with commitment early in my life,
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Um, that, that s something that I, that the value in that is something that I never really thought about, um, for most of my life.
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And it s, it s been a real joy to get to experience it.
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That s cool.
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Um, success.
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I just be like, dude,
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Buckle up.
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Wow.
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It s a ride, man.
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You have no idea what s coming.
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I think the advice I would give that person, because my mentality, and again, I remember having this conversation with my wife.
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I remember telling her, I m like, look, this might not last.
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It s one of these things.
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This thing s been a bestseller for 300 weeks or whatever, but when it s been a bestseller for 10 weeks,
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You never know when it s going to stop.
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You keep thinking, you re like, okay, maybe another month and then we re done, right?
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So, the mentality was very much just say yes to everything.
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Statistically, this isn t going to last for more than a few months.
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So, every invitation, every opportunity, every media appearance, just say yes.
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Just do it.
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You re young.
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You don t have any kids.
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You ll sleep later, right?
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Sure.
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Well, after a few years of that, like that starts, that starts adding up.
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So I would go back and just tell myself, you know, I know, I know there s a little bit of scarcity mindset here, but like, don t forget that you can say no to things and it s going to be okay.
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Um, self-worth, you know, I, it s funny cause I don t, it s actually strange.
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I think how,
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little self-worth I ended up tying up in this stuff.
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I m actually, it s funny, one of the joys of coming back to my internet business the last year
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I strangely, I take a lot more pride and derive a lot more self-worth from that, I think, than my books or the movie.
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And I don t know why that is.
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It s very strange.
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When my movie came out, there was...
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It was surprising how much other people expected me to care way more than I did.
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Like, other people were like, wow, this must be like... It s a big deal, and this is a... This is your capstone moment in your life, and it s... Really?
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You know, like, it s... And everybody from the studio, people at the studio, to friends and family, to, you know, people at my publisher, they re like, man, like, you got your own movie, it s actually, it s gonna be in a theater, like, this must be, like, a thing, and I m like, eh...
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Put it out there, yeah.
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Yeah, like, it s just more content, right?
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You know, so it s just, I think I m just an internet dude.
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Like, and it s... And I think I have more of my identity and self-worth tied up in the entrepreneurial side.
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Mm, that s cool.
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Than necessarily, like, the, um...
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being a public figure.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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This is a question I asked you.
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I must ve been four or five years ago in the last interview.
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Um, but you re in a much different space energetically now with more life experience.
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It s called the three truths.
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So imagine, maybe you don t remember cause you re in your eights interview that day.
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But imagine a hypothetical scenario and question.
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We went into your past self.
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We re going to go to your future self.
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Imagine you get to live as long as you want.
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And now that you re on this health kick, you re going to live with your 100-something.
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And you get to accomplish and create and be everything you want to be for the rest of your life.
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But it s the last day, many years away.
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And in this hypothetical world, you have to take everything with you you ve created.
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So no one has access to any of your books, movies, content, YouTube, or whatever you create in the future.
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It s all gonna go somewhere else.
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But you have a piece of paper and a pen and you get to write three lessons that you would leave with the world.
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I like to call them three truths.
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This is all we have to remember your content by for the rest of time.
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What would be those three truths you would leave behind?
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I would say probably the most important one would be don t be afraid of failure or pain.
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That that s actually where the joys and successes of life are hidden.
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Um, I would say.
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Be careful how you define yourself and, and be careful how you measure success.
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Because no matter how you choose those things, life s going to sneak up on you and bite you in the, it s going to find a way.
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Um, I guess the third thing, I don t know, maybe it s cause we opened with this, but, but love is not enough that it s it s love is great, but it,
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can t be the foundation of a healthy relationship.
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It amplifies a healthy foundation.
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Got one more question for you, one final question, but I want to make sure everyone gets the book.
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If you haven t already read it, make sure you get a few copies.
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You ve got a few other books as well.
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Grab those.
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Movie.
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YouTube channel, make sure to subscribe to that.
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How else can we be of service to you today?
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Oh, man.
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I don t know.
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Just like, enjoy your day.
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Enjoy your day.
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That s it, man.
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I love it.
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Take care of yourself.
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Show appreciation to people you care about.
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For sure, man.
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I want to acknowledge you for a moment, Mark, because again, when I saw you last, I didn t recognize you.
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You have continued to transform the inside, not just the external success and all the different results you ve gotten by creating more great content, but by creating a different world internally.
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and from shifting from more analytical to what it sounds like more emotional in your body and really taking a deeper dive into those, those wounds maybe from the past.
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So I really acknowledge you for going on the journey.
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I know how.
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scary and painful it has been for me, and I can imagine it hasn t been easy to dive into those things.
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So I really acknowledge you.
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It s hard to let go of certain physical things like drinking or socializing in certain ways when you ve done it for so long.
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It s hard to let go of certain beliefs, conversations, friendships.
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So I really acknowledge you for going on this healing journey, man.
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It s really beautiful to watch.
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Appreciate that.
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Of course.
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Final question.
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What is your definition of greatness?
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I mean, don t I get, like, this is my third time here.
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Don t I get a pass on this one?
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I feel like this is... I feel like it s evolved.
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I feel like it s evolved.
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It s not the same from five years ago.
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By the way, if anybody wants to, you know, check if my answers... I bet they re different.
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Yeah, then you could probably go back to my first interview.
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Definition of greatness.
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I mean, I would just say...
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living up to the standards for, for impact and contribution you have for yourself in the world.
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I hope today s episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness.
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Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today s show with all the important links.
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And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me, as well as add free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel on apple podcast.
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And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness Newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com slash newsletter.
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And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.
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And now it s time to go out there and do something great.