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 What would you say, in the research you did, were the big flags, red flags, for why this person probably won't be a great relationship partner for you long-term?
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What are those big red flags that you think that everyone should be looking out for?
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I mean, first and foremost is that issue of not communicating.
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 Welcome to the School of Greatness.
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My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur.
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And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness.
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Thanks for spending some time with me today.
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Now let the class begin.
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 Welcome back, everyone in School of Greatness.
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Very excited about our guest, the icon, Eric Barker in the house.
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Good to see you, man.
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Welcome back.
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Welcome back to the show.
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It's been a few years.
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You've got an amazing new book, Play Well with Others, the surprising science behind why everything you know about relationships is mostly wrong.
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I want to start with this question.
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What do you think are the three biggest things people get wrong about love and relationships in general?
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 Well, I mean, I think the first thing people think is that, you know, we can just kind of avoid problems.
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That conflict is bad.
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Conflict is going to grow.
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And the truth is you got to have those hard conversations.
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The majority of marriages don't end in yelling and screaming.
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The majority of marriages end when people live parallel lives.
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You yell and scream when you care.
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Once you stop caring, it goes in another direction.
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 Number two, I think the big thing is, this is research from John Gottman, who's like the leading researcher.
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He's the best, he's great.
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Is that he listened to couples argue.
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And 96% of the time, by listening to the first three minutes, he could predict how it ended.
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If it starts ugly, it's gonna end ugly.
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If you can take a deep breath, you can chill out a little bit, you're gonna be so much better.
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It's just that little bit, how we begin predicts how we end.
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And the third thing I would say is like,
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 There's a lot of difficult stuff on love and marriage that we don't hear about.
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You know, it's like a lot of things, two or three years after people get married, their happiness level is pretty much where they were before.
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Sometimes it declines.
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So you got to keep it alive.
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And one of the things I talk about in the book is
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 Basically, you gotta keep dating.
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The thing is, when people go on pleasant dates, the research shows, eh, people gotta go on exciting dates.
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Adventures.
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Adventures are key.
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Adventures are key.
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People think, oh, well, we did all that fun, exciting stuff when we first started dating because we were in love.
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 But actually it goes both ways.
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You did it because you were in love but that's also what produced the love.
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So you keep doing exciting things.
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In psychology they're called emotional contagion.
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Whatever environment we're in we kind of pick up those emotions and we associate that with who we're with.
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If you're at concerts it's exciting and if you do fun things with your partner you can keep love alive.
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 So if you do all that for the first couple of years, then you just coast, it's hard to keep the love alive from years ago, a bond.
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You can stay connected, but you may not have as rich or fulfilling of a love life is what I'm hearing you say.
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Absolutely.
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It's like to just to just to kind of like hit love with the defibrillator paddles and keep it going where it's like,
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 That's why a lot of people feel resentful in relationships because, oh, we used to do this, you used to do this for me, as opposed to kind of keeping it going.
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It seems to be a trend for a lot of relationships that you used to do this and the other person used to do this, but after 2, 5, 10 years they stopped doing it.
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Why do you think so many people stop living the adventurous life in the relationship once they're together after a period of time?
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 I mean a lot of it is we get busy and a lot of it is people get kind of in a rut but those ruts are really dangerous.
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It's like what happens is Gottman calls it negative sentiment override and basically what that is is basically the lack of talking, the lack of communication.
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 it compounds negatively.
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Instead of having a conversation with your partner, you start having a conversation with yourself, where they say, oh, if I raised this issue, they'd probably say, and that can spiral into negativity.
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Gottman talks about love maps, which is like really getting to know your partner, not how they like their coffee, not the way they like to vacation, but asking them the tough questions.
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What does love mean to you?
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What does happiness mean to you?
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 What is a great partner mean to you?
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Because that's something you can never get unless you ask them and you're getting the answers to the test.
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So what is a love map then?
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A love map is basically just that knowledge of your partner where you are asking, this is what makes them happy, this is what makes them less happy.
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But rather than, like I said, the minutia, you know, what bothers them about their day,
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 Asking them the questions that there aren't black-and-white answers to what is happiness?
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What does love mean?
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What does marriage mean?
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Because it answers so much when you think and we tend to think that everyone I know thinks the same way as us or yeah exact beliefs, but we don't and then you're and then you're thinking oh and
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 Didn't take the trash out.
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It's not that big a deal because I don't think it's that big a deal whereas your partner sees that as a sign that you care and We just associate different values But if you ask you can say maybe I don't think this is that big a deal But they really do think it's a big deal and vice versa when the things that you feel.
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Oh, they're neglectful It's like no you got to tell them they got to know and
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 Wow.
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What do you think are three questions we should all know before deciding to commit to a relationship?
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Well, what does love mean to you?
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What does a good partner mean to you?
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If it's on the way to marriage, what does marriage mean to you?
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Because we live in a world with so many options and possibilities, and that's awesome.
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 But that's the trickiest thing.
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Eli Finkel's done research at Northwestern and what he's found is this tremendous shift where, number one, over the past 20 years,
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 you know, the importance of marriage as a relationship has nearly doubled.
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Before, you were part of, you know, we used to, there was a bowling league, and the Oak Lodge, and people were involved in different communities.
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Now, so much of that has been centralized in marriage, that knowing how happy someone's marriage is, is insanely predictive of how happy their life is, because it has been so invested.
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You're so integrated into the, yeah, yeah.
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It's like that, it's almost make or break.
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 And with all these options, all these possibilities, you know, marriage has been stripped down.
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Like we don't have as many formal rules as we used to.
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There's so many positives to that, but there's also negatives too, because you don't, you don't, you don't have a, you don't have a break.
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You don't have a seatbelt.
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So.
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Give me an example.
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What do you mean by that?
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In terms of like men need to do this, women need to do this or that, that's the, we don't have a template like we used to have.
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There's not traditional roles like there used to be.
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And that's a, and that's, that's a great thing.
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It's also a challenge.
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 It's a great thing because what that means, and this is what Finkel found, is that the average relationship isn't as good, marriage isn't as good as it used to be, but the best marriages today are the best marriages there have ever been.
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Because of a lack of formal rules, if you know what you want and you put in the work, you can create a custom script that works awesome for both of you.
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So it's a custom script, but it probably sounds like there's still some formal, there's some
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 Agreements.
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Yes to the custom script.
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It's not an outdated agreements.
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That was exactly societies Yeah, it has to be this way this way, but it's new agreements that you're both in alignment to Exactly that that's that's what we decided on.
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This is what works for us Nobody else wrote them for us, but we also didn't neglect to create them at all We said this is what works for us.
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And these are the people who are having like I said the best marriages that have ever existed
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 So what are the best marriages that have ever existed have in place?
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Are there roles and responsibilities?
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Are there shared agreements?
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Are they, they communicate in a certain way?
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What are the main themes that they all have?
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What you see consistently is first that level of communication where again, you can avoid it because when you avoid it, you start making assumptions and those are usually negative.
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 So basically, as Gottman found, it's like, you have to argue, you have to fight, it has to happen.
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Complaining is actually a good thing in a marriage.
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Really?
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Basically.
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He looked at, I think, the first year or two of marriage.
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And the couples that complained the least, for the first two years, it seemed like it was going really well.
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They're the ones that divorced later because they weren't working through any problems.
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They were ignoring them.
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So the couples that had a moderate level of disagreement
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 They were getting comfortable, they were working out the things, they were agreeing, they were laying down the faults, and then it was okay.
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It's like getting settled in a new job.
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So there has to be a level of complaint.
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The only time complaint gets bad is when it becomes criticism.
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The difference is when you personalize it.
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You didn't take out the trash, that's fine.
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You didn't take out the trash because you're an idiot, that's a problem.
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When it's about an activity, that's okay.
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When it's about people's fundamental personality, that doesn't tend to go well.
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 I'm so glad you're sharing this because it's interesting, because I was probably like, huh, I wonder if I'm doing it wrong, because I've been in a relationship, we've been together for a while now, and I said to her before we got committed, I said, the only way I'm willing to get into a new relationship, because I've been in many that didn't work out, and I was like, the only way I'm gonna get into a new one is if, under a few conditions.
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One, the person I'm in a relationship with
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 Doing some type of consistent therapy.
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Yeah, it doesn't have to be every week, but something consistently once a month, right?
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Well, they're working on their own emotional challenges.
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They're working through them and processing healing and all that stuff Number two, they've got to be willing to do therapy with me in the beginning.
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Yeah, because
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 My goal is to have the uncomfortable conversations without complaining or arguing, but have them in a safer environment where we can both communicate.
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And it doesn't feel good.
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It's like, ah, it's a little scary.
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It's a little messy.
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But it's in a conscious space with a third party who can give us tools, who can help us then align on agreements that work for both of us.
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And it's been incredible.
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It's been incredible because
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 of that shift where I think a lot of people go into therapy when it's not working to try to make it work and resolve things because they've neglected the complaining or the conversation, the communication.
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I was like, let's just skip all the complaining and figure out the agreements early on.
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So we don't have to get to a place of stress or not talking about stuff.
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 So it's been but we haven't been complaining with each other Yeah, so it's kind of like how am I worried that we haven't been complaining, but we've been communicating Agreements and aligning to them.
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So it's been a beautiful thing.
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You you did the work up front I mean up front the biggest reason most marriage therapy doesn't work And one of the biggest reasons why it doesn't work is people wait too long.
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It's too late.
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It's too late right basically people don't wait until six years in and actually most divorces occur four years in
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 40 years in?
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Four years in.
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And then so by people are going, a lot of the stuff is too far gone.
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You're already like, I'm over it.
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I'm exhausted.
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I don't care about this person anymore.
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I'm resentful.
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It's just to diverge too much.
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It's too far, right?
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Yeah.
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You, instead of going to a doctor's appointment, you said, let's go to the gym and stay in shape and we don't need to have the open heart surgery, literally, later.
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And then try to recover from the wounds that are so like broken, right?
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 Well, that's what's so powerful is like you had someone to kind of poke and prod the two of you to open up and do it instead of just checking the box.
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We talked like you had a professional go, no, no, you got to open up a little bit more.
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And it sounds like you really laid a lot of good groundwork and got it over.
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Yeah.
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And we're, you know, we're spending four to six hour sessions on Saturday sometimes just to make sure
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 All right, let's talk about all these things that might be an issue later down the line or that are unclear right now.
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Let's get clarity so there's no confusion.
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 I've experienced a lot of pain in previous relationships that I take responsibility for because I stayed in these things.
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But I think because I experienced so much of that, I was just like, I don't want any of that anymore.
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I'd rather be so open, be courageous in my communication, talk about all the uncomfortable things, even if it doesn't feel good, to eliminate later pain.
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Dive into it now so I don't have it later.
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 You set up an environment where you were able to be compassionate with one another.
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You had a professional there.
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You both agreed to this.
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It didn't happen spontaneously when somebody was angry.
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 being compassionate in the middle of conversations.
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Gottman talks about repair, where it's like, even if you're having big problems, if you pause to be a little compassionate, to show a little respect.
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It's so hard for people, though.
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It's, well, because by the time anybody has a conversation, they're usually so worked up and angry already.
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It's like, you went in there calm and cool, you had a referee, and you both let it out.
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Exactly.
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And letting it out in a conscious way.
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 What does the science say that you've done all the research on it about history of relationships that most people don't know about Well in terms of how they worked in the past Yes And then now where we're at now and where you think it's gonna be See the the interesting thing is in the past.
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It was very prescribed I mean you had arranged marriages, you know, you had everything kind of set up
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 that basically was all formal systems.
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That was good for society in some ways because it kept a smooth running machine, but it wasn't really good for the individual.
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Even if you go back to the 1960s, the percentage of men and women who said, oh, you know, you don't have to be in love with the person you get married, was staggeringly high compared to now, love is considered essential.
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 That's really great.
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But that if the challenge we're facing is we created this winner-take-all environment where in the past was very formal Love wasn't as important stability rock-solid now We want it all and that's tricky to keep it stable to keep it safe potentially to raise children and also you have to fulfill me and bring me everything I've ever dreamed and
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 The thing is, we face those challenges, we can overcome them.
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The issue is that a lot of people have fairytale visions, and fairytale visions can be problematic because they're passive.
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It's supposed to magically happen to me.
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As opposed to rolling up your sleeves, then you can have one of those best marriages that have ever existed.
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 Right, where both parties are doing 100% of the effort and intention, not waiting for the other person to give them something all day long and make them feel a certain way.
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I mean, we spend a lot of time hoping the other person will read our mind.
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And as opposed to when we have those conversations, like you did, where you made it right up front, it's like, not only do we kind of get the answers to the test, this is what happiness is, this is what marriage is to them.
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But also, when you learn where people's needs are coming from,
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 you can find a way to honor both of your values.
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It's like, oh, they go to the bathroom in the middle of the night, they leave the light on, it drives me crazy.
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Okay, well, if you found out, that's because they had a childhood fear of the dark.
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Now, oh, I understand, oh my God, that's people, once you understand the story, once you understand the narrative, you understand where those feelings are coming from, we get so more compassionate, but if we don't have that conversation, then we assume it's because they're out to get us and they're trying to ruin my life.
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Sure, sure.
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 I've talked to a few people who have been married for 40 plus years who are happily married, which there's a lot of people that have been married for a long time that are not happy, right?
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 just surviving, they're not thriving in the marriage.
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And I'll ask them these questions like, what's the key to being happy consistently?
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Obviously, it might have some ups and downs, but like staying connected and happy and all those things and integrity.
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And almost all of them say that 80% of it is who you choose.
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 And I think when we don't have the conscious conversations early on, and we neglect the uncomfortable conversations early on to make sure we're in alignment with our values, our vision, our lifestyle, our agreements, when we neglect that, it just causes more pain in the future.
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When you keep kind of the mask of the potential fairy tale of what you think they're gonna do without actually asking the questions.
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 How important is it for people to be consistently having these uncomfortable conversations early on?
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No, it's essential because what you're talking about, like that issue of selection, is this person right?
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This is why you hear so much about people trying to change their partners.
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 Because you didn't pick the right one.
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You didn't pick the right one.
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You don't accept them because you didn't pick the right one.
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Because if we would ask these questions earlier in the relationships, we would be able to separate our image of a perfect person and say, okay, actually they don't think about money this way, or they don't think about raising kids this way, or they have a religious belief that it's different from mine.
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 And we could say, oh, you're a great person, but it's probably not the right fit for me and my life's vision.
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But a lot of us don't do that.
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We're too chemically bonded by the feelings of love and the chemical connections that kind of cloud us from those other big decisions.
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Yeah.
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I mean, with the little stuff, like how you argue, how you dispute, those you can work on.
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 probably not going to change somebody's fundamental values.
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So finding out upfront, this is what they think about marriage.
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This is what they think about love.
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You know, it's like couples argue a lot about money.
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It's like, you know, why is that?
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Well, it's very simple.
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You know, it's like, because money is a quantification of values.
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Did I spend money on things that benefit the family or selfishly benefit myself?
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Did I spend money on?
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Money is a, you get a number.
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This is how important this is to me.
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 And if you're not on the same page in terms of what's important to you, it's often going to show up in terms of money.
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So it's like understanding, hey, we're on the same page.
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Because feelings often fade, especially if we don't work on it.
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But if you have the same values, then you know you're headed in the same direction.
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Then it's just tic-tacking to get it perfect instead of trying to close this huge chasm that you didn't know was there.
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 So how important is values in choosing the right partner?
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I mean, I think it's critical.
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I mean, you can make things work if you really have it, but it's like to understand.
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It's so much harder, right?
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How do you make it more effortless is by being in alignment on these things, right?
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What are the three to five values that
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 We should really have figured out where it's not perfect match, but you're in alignment 80 of the values Oh, yeah, that makes sense.
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And yeah, i'm here.
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What are those three to five key values for a relationship?
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I mean, I think a big issue is the issue of like what is success to us, you know being able to say it's kind of like when are we on the right track when we're spending as much time together as humanly possible or are we on the right track when you know, We both have a balance
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 Getting that issue of what do we value and how do we honor both of those things, this is something critical that can be very difficult to figure out later on because one of the critical things is when people are trying to change their partner.
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 There's a way to do this, and there's a way to do it successfully.
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They actually call it the Michelangelo effect.
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But what it has to do with is finding out who your partner's ultimate vision of themself is and moving them towards that.
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So, to your point,
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 If their values are so far astray from yours, you're actually moving them further away from you.
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Because if you're going to yell at them or chide them, that's not going to work.
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But if they had this vision of who they'd like to be and you help them get towards that, it's great for both of you.
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Yes.
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But if your values are so different, you're actually hurting the relationship to make them better.
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Is it possible to change your partner then?
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You can.
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 But it's exactly the steps that you talked about where if we know our values are pretty similar and we know that maybe because of circumstances or lack of confidence they're not moving in the direction that they want to move in.
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If you look at who do they see, not you see, who do they see as their ideal self and you start to support them in those endeavors.
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 then they become a better version of themselves, and that is gonna make them happy.
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They're gonna be likely to move forward.
0
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It's what they want.
0
SPEAKER_00
Be more grateful in the relationship for you.
0
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
0
SPEAKER_00
For supporting them.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
0
SPEAKER_01
So it's like, it's understanding where they wanna go and supporting them in that, but you need the answer up front, and it needs to be aligned with yours.
0
SPEAKER_00
 And what happens if you try to change someone in a relationship to meet your needs and your desires of what you like as opposed to what they want?
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that's disastrous.
0
SPEAKER_01
That's what most people do.
0
SPEAKER_01
And that's what doesn't work because you're trying to make them into something they're not.
0
SPEAKER_01
 Best case scenario is they're not going to be very good at it.
0
SPEAKER_01
Worst case scenario is they're going to be resentful because you're basically saying you're not good enough or I don't like you as you are.
0
SPEAKER_00
Right.
0
SPEAKER_00
So you need to change to make me happier.
0
SPEAKER_01
And so if you understand upfront, we are both generally headed in the same direction and helping them be better is helping them be better for you.
0
SPEAKER_00
 What is maybe a controversial strategy or technique to making a relationship better, deeper, stronger?
0
SPEAKER_01
What's really interesting is all the research on narrative, on the research on stories.
0
SPEAKER_01
And one thing that's very controversial is people often don't know the story that they're looking for.
0
SPEAKER_01
 People think that oh, I want this kind of person and they always end up with the other kind of person Yeah, and they want to blame the world and it's like if you keep choosing the same partner time and time again It's probably you right you need to look at that and there's some just amazing work in terms of figuring out what your story is figuring out what your partner's story is because
0
SPEAKER_01
 Some people think they're looking for a romance.
0
SPEAKER_01
They're actually looking for a war story.
0
SPEAKER_01
Some people enjoy the conflict.
0
SPEAKER_01
Nobody wants to admit that.
0
SPEAKER_01
But to be honest with yourself, and then be honest with your partner, and to find a partner that you're aligned with, those are the relationships that work is when we say,
0
SPEAKER_01
 Again, not to speculate, but to look back.
0
SPEAKER_01
Not to say, well, I think, no, that's rationalizing.
0
SPEAKER_01
Versus five times in a row, I did this, that's probably what I usually do.
0
SPEAKER_01
You can change it, but it's like to say, this is the pattern I'm looking for.
0
SPEAKER_01
What does that say about me?
0
SPEAKER_01
What do I want to change?
0
SPEAKER_01
And is that aligned with what my partner wants?
0
SPEAKER_01
It's deep, it's hard, it's painful, but it's incredibly powerful.
0
SPEAKER_00
 What's the biggest thing you've learned about yourself in the last few years from doing this research and working on this book about how you've done things incredibly well in previous relationships and how you've
0
SPEAKER_00
 Like maybe something in the book where you're like, wow, I never did this well, and it's probably why it caused challenge in the past.
0
SPEAKER_01
Oh, just the issue of opening up.
0
SPEAKER_01
Really?
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, the vulnerability issue.
0
SPEAKER_01
I think we've heard a lot that it's powerful for romantic relationships, but it's just in friendships, in every relationship.
0
SPEAKER_01
 In work, it can be a challenge if you're in a leadership role.
0
SPEAKER_01
You do need to be seen as authoritative.
0
SPEAKER_01
But like even in your friendships, Arthur Aron at Stony Brook University, he got people who are strangers to feel like lifelong friends in an hour by just making them answer questions that progressively had them reveal more about themselves.
0
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
0
SPEAKER_01
 in one hour because they had to proceed, answer this question, answer this question, and people find connections.
0
SPEAKER_01
And what's really critical there is that issue of vulnerability because if I'm just giving facts, that's fine.
0
SPEAKER_01
Similarities, very powerful.
0
SPEAKER_01
But what's more important is when I tell you something about me that can make me look bad, that maybe could be used against me, that could embarrass me or shame me,
0
SPEAKER_01
 I am basically, I am not saying I trust you, I am demonstrating I trust you.
0
SPEAKER_01
I'm handing you a knife and I'm saying you could stab me, I trust you not to do it.
0
SPEAKER_01
That is a powerful way to demonstrate I trust you and people are likely to reciprocate and once you escalate that, I go a little deeper, you go a little bit deeper.
0
SPEAKER_01
 Now there's a there's not an idea of trust.
0
SPEAKER_01
There's a feeling of trust.
0
SPEAKER_00
That's interesting and I think you've got to be I think some people maybe don't do that as much as they would because They maybe have opened up or been vulnerable and had like a narcissistic relationship that is used that
0
SPEAKER_00
 vulnerability against them, you know, later in their relationship and manipulated them with their vulnerabilities as opposed to trusted them and held it with a, you know, a kindness.
0
SPEAKER_00
So I think that's why some people might stop opening up, not everyone, but and why it's hard for people if they've been used against their vulnerability and that's why
0
SPEAKER_00
 It is tough to be vulnerable because you don't want someone to use it against you.
0
SPEAKER_00
Well, and we can mitigate that.
0
SPEAKER_01
The issue is, start small.
0
SPEAKER_01
Start small, do they reciprocate?
0
SPEAKER_00
Don't tell me a whole life trauma right away, yeah.
0
SPEAKER_00
Don't confess to any murders over Thanksgiving dinner, you know?
0
SPEAKER_01
It's like, start small.
0
SPEAKER_01
Do they reciprocate?
0
SPEAKER_01
Are they being vulnerable back?
0
SPEAKER_01
If they're not, then this is already feeling a little one-sided.
0
SPEAKER_00
Don't keep giving more and more, yeah.
0
SPEAKER_01
So it's like, if you start small, they give back.
0
SPEAKER_01
 you know, tip for tat a little bit, just where you're opening up, they're opening up, and what you're gonna find is that that is really powerful, but if they don't respond, then what's great, to your point, is then it becomes a litmus test.
0
SPEAKER_01
Okay, this relationship is not gonna go that far, because they don't want to open up to me.
0
SPEAKER_01
They don't trust me in the same way.
0
SPEAKER_01
So maybe I should not trust them at that level.
0
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
0
SPEAKER_00
 It's fascinating.
0
SPEAKER_00
I bet that experiment, if you did this for a day with strangers, I bet you could get strangers to be closer friends than some people who've spent a year together with surface conversations than a day together with vulnerable, intimate conversations.
0
SPEAKER_01
 This is the Arthur Aron, the same guy who did that, the one hour to feeling like a lifelong friend.
0
SPEAKER_01
The research assistants in his lab who initially helped him with that work ended up falling in love and getting married.
0
SPEAKER_00
Come on.
0
SPEAKER_01
Because they had to solve the same test.
0
SPEAKER_01
 and they had to open up and these people fell in love because, again, we usually play it too safe.
0
SPEAKER_01
And the thing is, when we play it safe, we talk about narrow topics, we are not creating the surface area for people to connect with us.
0
SPEAKER_01
The greater that surface area, the more possibilities for similarity and the more possibilities for someone to say, you know what?
0
SPEAKER_01
They're like me.
0
SPEAKER_01
I trust them.
0
SPEAKER_01
 this is worth pursuing.
0
SPEAKER_00
Let's hang out more.
0
SPEAKER_00
Let's spend more time together.
0
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
0
SPEAKER_00
What were some of those questions in that hour-long experience?
0
SPEAKER_01
They weren't anything dramatic.
0
SPEAKER_01
If you could have dinner with anyone living or dead, who would it be?
0
SPEAKER_01
What is your idea of a perfect day?
0
SPEAKER_01
 You know, they weren't too invasive.
0
SPEAKER_01
He had like three stages where they got progressively more intimate, but none of them were like talking about deep childhood trauma or something like that.
0
SPEAKER_01
It was just enough that you could say something and they could respond to it and they could feel a level of similarity and they could start to get an idea, again, the values issue of what
0
SPEAKER_01
 If you could, if you could have dinner with any person living or dead, I'm getting to know what your values are.
0
SPEAKER_01
And why do you wanna, yeah, if it's like some random, I don't know.
2
SPEAKER_02
 have been, it didn't have to go this way.
2
SPEAKER_02
And one of the things, most of this is work by Martin Seligman at the University of Pennsylvania, is that not only does gratitude help us, but one of the most powerful things we can do to make someone else happy is what he calls a gratitude visit.
2
SPEAKER_02
 Which is schedule a time with somebody, maybe it's your partner, you know, you schedule some time and beforehand you write up like a single page letter and just tell them all the wonderful things that they've done for you and how much it's impacted you and how much it's changed you and how much you appreciate it.
2
SPEAKER_02
You schedule a time, you don't tell them what's going to transpire, you sit down and you read the letter to them.
2
SPEAKER_02
 First off, you better have tissues, because most people cry.
2
SPEAKER_02
And second off, this has been shown to increase the other person's happiness for months afterwards.
2
SPEAKER_02
 How often do we feel like people aren't supporting us, don't think about us, don't appreciate us, to sit down and schedule a time and make it all about them, to have prepared, to have made a list?
2
SPEAKER_02
How flattering is that?
2
SPEAKER_02
And how great is that to give someone else that gift?
2
SPEAKER_02
It is one of the most powerful happiness exercises that we have for both people is exactly what you said, to deliberately, consciously show gratitude that way.
2
SPEAKER_01
 You know, this is something that we've been doing in our relationship every night together.
2
SPEAKER_01
We share three things we're grateful for before we go to bed, and usually a couple of them are geared towards each other, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
It's like, I'm so grateful for you for doing this, and I appreciate you for this.
2
SPEAKER_01
 And it just, man, it just creates so much harmony in the relationship.
2
SPEAKER_01
Now, I'm sure people listening or watching might be saying, well, that's easy to do in the first year, you know, but wait till you have, everyone says, wait till you have kids, wait till you're busier, wait till this, and I get it, I'm not saying there's not new challenges or adversity to face, but I think if this is not the baseline of what you're creating, before more challenges come up,
2
SPEAKER_01
 It's going to be harder when there's challenges, when you have less sleep, when you're overworked or overwhelmed because of distractions or because big responsibilities or health crises.
2
SPEAKER_01
I get it.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that's why I think it's so important in the beginning of a relationship to set the deep foundation with time, with vulnerability, like you said.
2
SPEAKER_01
 And with these practices, I love this gratitude visit.
2
SPEAKER_01
It's the giving the gift of gratitude to your partner, to your friends, and the connection and the bond you'll create because of that is powerful.
2
SPEAKER_02
Absolutely.
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I think that's an amazing practice that you guys do.
2
SPEAKER_02
 having building a habit together of cleaning the bathroom is great building a habit like this is even better because Shelly Gable at UCSB has done some really interesting counterintuitive research that basically shows for a lot of couples How they celebrate is more important than how they fight.
2
SPEAKER_02
We think fighting bad that's going to destroy the relationship Yeah, but it's like if you're just focused on bringing up to average, you know
2
SPEAKER_02
 You've got to focus on the positive.
2
SPEAKER_02
You've got to increase the positives.
2
SPEAKER_02
So when couples have a great time together, when they celebrate together, that's why some people occasionally stay in difficult relationships, because even though there's bads, there's also some compensatory goods.
2
SPEAKER_02
Well, if we don't have the bad, but we add in the good, and she talks about that issue.
2
SPEAKER_02
In the formal terminology, they call it capitalization, whereas you had a good day, tell me about it.
2
SPEAKER_02
 This was great.
2
SPEAKER_02
Let me be the cheerleader.
2
SPEAKER_02
I am so happy for you.
2
SPEAKER_02
I am so excited for you.
2
SPEAKER_02
Let's celebrate it.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
That every day, if couples get together, how did your day go?
2
SPEAKER_02
And it's kind of like that capitalizing on those positives.
2
SPEAKER_02
You're doing a version of that where it's kind of what went well today.
2
SPEAKER_02
Here's the things I'm grateful for.
2
SPEAKER_02
When you capitalize on that, when you become the supporter, you're in their corner.
2
SPEAKER_02
I am involved.
2
SPEAKER_02
I know what's going on.
2
SPEAKER_02
I'm supportive of the positive.
2
SPEAKER_02
I'm enthusiastic.
2
SPEAKER_02
 I mean, that's what we all want.
2
SPEAKER_02
That's really cool, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
And what about the world of social media right now?
2
SPEAKER_01
Is social media in general good for a relationship or more challenging for a relationship when people are on and involved in social media in different ways?
2
SPEAKER_02
 This is one of those areas that's mixed because we hear so many negatives and it can be good, it can be bad.
2
SPEAKER_02
What it comes down to is we still need face-to-face contact.
2
SPEAKER_02
When you look at cancer support groups, there are some cancer support groups that are face-to-face, there are some that are virtual.
2
SPEAKER_02
 When you look at the virtual groups, there's a double-digit percentage often of these people in cancer support groups who are feeling clinically depressed.
2
SPEAKER_02
When you look at the face-to-face groups, the level of clinical depression is often zero.
2
SPEAKER_00
 They're less depressed.
2
SPEAKER_00
They might be sad from like sickness.
2
SPEAKER_00
But it's not debilitating.
2
SPEAKER_00
We need that face-to-face.
2
SPEAKER_01
They have some hope.
2
SPEAKER_01
They have more connection.
2
SPEAKER_02
They have community.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
Interesting.
2
SPEAKER_02
We need an element of face-to-face and that issue of social media.
2
SPEAKER_02
Hey, if somebody's a close friend, they live 3,000 miles away, maybe a DM is the easiest way for you to coordinate.
2
SPEAKER_02
 Sure.
2
SPEAKER_02
But the question to be asking is, am I using social media in order to orchestrate and facilitate face-to-face deep connections, or am I using it to replace them, to cannibalize them?
2
SPEAKER_02
 That's really the critical thing.
2
SPEAKER_02
If you use any form of social media to organize a face-to-face get-together, it's a positive, no doubt.
2
SPEAKER_02
If they're 3,000 miles away, hey, this is what we got until the next time we connect face-to-face.
2
SPEAKER_02
But when it starts cannibalizing it, when it's too difficult, I don't want to get off the couch, when it becomes a replacement,
2
SPEAKER_02
 That's where it can become really difficult.
2
SPEAKER_02
That's where it can become problematic.
2
SPEAKER_02
We want to make sure that we're leveraging it in order to get to face-to-face, to get to those deeper connections because there's a lot of things we're going to say face-to-face, we're going to explore face-to-face that we're never going to do via text.
2
SPEAKER_01
And what about when it's an intimate relationship and people are using social media, what are the
2
SPEAKER_01
 the do's and don'ts of using social media to either bond the intimate relationship more or that cause stress in an intimate relationship.
2
SPEAKER_02
There, the critical aspect in terms of an intimate relationship is don't keep secrets.
2
SPEAKER_02
Because there's one book that was written by a former divorce lawyer and he talked about how many of his cases were started by Facebook.
2
SPEAKER_02
 Don't be communicating or communicating in a way that you would not feel comfortable sharing with your partner.
2
SPEAKER_02
Don't keep secrets.
2
SPEAKER_02
You can communicate with an ex if your partner knows about that, is cool with it, if you would feel comfortable showing them the messages, there's not a problem.
2
SPEAKER_02
Once you're keeping secrets and saying things you shouldn't be saying and if you're concerned that they might see those messages,
2
SPEAKER_02
 Then you might want to think twice.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, don't engage exactly.
2
SPEAKER_01
That's smart just or keep it like prayer hands, you know, just like It's more of a neutral communication.
2
SPEAKER_01
I love this I Want to go back to kind of the beginning and bring it full circle you mentioned about how the relationships that are happy and
2
SPEAKER_01
 They don't maybe have traditional roles from society that they live up to, but they create their own roles is what I think I heard you say.
2
SPEAKER_01
How important is it with masculine and feminine energy
2
SPEAKER_01
 to have a certain type of role and responsibility.
2
SPEAKER_01
Is it okay for one party to be doing a lot more of the heavy lifting in a relationship and the other one less?
2
SPEAKER_01
Is it better for both parties to say, okay, here's my share of the effort and energy that I'm gonna work on for logistics and house and money and food and all these other things, kids.
2
SPEAKER_01
 and the other one have their kind of responsibilities and roles, how does it really work?
2
SPEAKER_01
Because it seems like now people can do anything they want, they can say anything they want, they can change anything they want at any moment.
2
SPEAKER_01
Is that too confusing for a relationship without the stability of roles and responsibilities that are both agreed upon?
2
SPEAKER_02
 Yeah, this is why it's so hard.
2
SPEAKER_02
This is why it's so hard.
2
SPEAKER_02
But the thing is, again, it comes down to the assumptions.
2
SPEAKER_02
If there aren't clear defaults, if you're not taking standard rules, the first thing to remember is that as long as everybody is honest and forthright, then fairness is not an issue, as long as everybody's honest and forthright.
2
SPEAKER_02
If somebody wants to,
2
SPEAKER_02
 do more of this.
2
SPEAKER_02
They enjoy it.
2
SPEAKER_02
That's fine.
2
SPEAKER_02
If they don't feel like, hey, we need to be sharing this, and they're straightforward about it, you need to talk.
2
SPEAKER_02
You need to have a conversation.
2
SPEAKER_02
Because it's not that issue.
2
SPEAKER_02
There is no default fairness.
2
SPEAKER_02
There's how much do you feel comfortable with?
2
SPEAKER_02
What value do they bring?
2
SPEAKER_02
What do you need?
2
SPEAKER_02
 Because once we get so tied up into fair, we all have irrational wants.
2
SPEAKER_02
We all have things that contradict each other.
2
SPEAKER_02
But we can't resolve that until we talk about it.
2
SPEAKER_02
Because some things that feel so big to you can feel small to your partner and vice versa.
2
SPEAKER_02
There are some things you'd be happy to do.
2
SPEAKER_02
It's no big deal.
2
SPEAKER_02
But they think it's a big lift.
2
SPEAKER_02
They think it's a big ask.
2
SPEAKER_02
 It's really putting it out there, because once you do something more akin to what you did, where it's like, you said, we're going to go to therapy, we're going to talk about all these things.
2
SPEAKER_02
I don't think there was probably a lot left.
2
SPEAKER_02
Things are going to change.
2
SPEAKER_02
Software updates.
2
SPEAKER_02
But it's like, once you put it out there, it's like, OK, I understand.
2
SPEAKER_02
This is mine.
2
SPEAKER_02
That's yours.
2
SPEAKER_02
These might change.
2
SPEAKER_02
 I think a lot of people are afraid that's going to cause conflict, so they don't want to talk about it, so they nod their head, and that compounds.
2
SPEAKER_02
And that's not good.
2
SPEAKER_01
That's not good.
2
SPEAKER_02
But if you want the happiest relationships that we have today, it is an issue of just getting it all out there and making it clear, even if it's scary and ugly.
2
SPEAKER_01
Isn't that true?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, getting it all out, not hiding anything until after you're married and then saying, OK, well, here's what I really want.
2
SPEAKER_01
 Then you're like, oh man, well, yeah, then then Then you're going to be focused on changing the other person and that's not going to be good This is powerful stuff, man Play well with others the surprising science behind why everything you know about relationships is mostly Wrong.
2
SPEAKER_01
I'm curious.
2
SPEAKER_01
I want people to get the book.
2
SPEAKER_01
I want them to follow you.
2
SPEAKER_01
You have an amazing newsletter as well
2
SPEAKER_01
 What's the main place we can go to for the newsletter and you personally on social media?
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, my URL on my blog is a little tricky.
2
SPEAKER_02
So people go to ericbarker.org.
2
SPEAKER_02
E-R-I-C-B-A-R-K-E-R dot O-R-G.
2
SPEAKER_01
That'll take them to the site, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
That'll take them to my website.
2
SPEAKER_02
And yeah, my newsletter comes out weekly.
2
SPEAKER_02
I'm always looking at the latest research on how we can be better.
2
SPEAKER_01
That's amazing.
2
SPEAKER_01
What would you say are the
2
SPEAKER_01
 The biggest, I don't know if Gottman or someone else said this, besides the four horsemen, what are the biggest topics that cause the most stress that potentially end a relationship or a marriage?
2
SPEAKER_01
The topic of money, the topic of how to raise kids, religion, families, like how families are involved in the relationship.
2
SPEAKER_01
 And I guess sex.
2
SPEAKER_01
Which of those cause more conflict and divorce than the rest of them, would you say?
2
SPEAKER_01
Are they all kind of equal?
2
SPEAKER_01
Finances is usually number one.
2
SPEAKER_02
 Why do you think money is such a big problem in relationships?
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean first and foremost it's because it's that quantification of values where it's just like you're seeing First off.
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean obviously people people need money in order to live so that Seems like a big threat
2
SPEAKER_02
 The other things can be worked out, but when you see that your partner ideas on what is important and money is a measure of what's important are completely misaligned with yours, it can create an enormous amount of stress.
2
SPEAKER_02
You really see that it can feel like somebody doesn't respect if you're the breadwinner, it feels like somebody doesn't respect your efforts.
2
SPEAKER_02
 Or if you're not the breadwinner, it can feel like somebody else is not doing their share to keep this safe and stable.
2
SPEAKER_02
So for both sides, that issue of money can be really challenging because it is an existential threat to not only the relationship, but your life.
2
SPEAKER_02
To livelihood, to staying alive.
2
SPEAKER_01
 I'm so excited about this.
2
SPEAKER_01
I want people to get the book a lot of good science and research in here about how to You know shift your thinking around Relationships not only intimate relationships, but friends family colleagues as well in business So make sure you guys pick up a copy of the book check out your newsletter as well a couple final questions This is called the three truths.
2
SPEAKER_01
I'm not sure if I asked you this last time, okay?
2
SPEAKER_01
 Hypothetical scenario, imagine it's your last day on earth many years away.
2
SPEAKER_01
You live as long as you wanna live, you accomplish everything that you wanna do, you live a happy life, but for whatever reason, you gotta take all of your work with you to the next place.
2
SPEAKER_01
So no one has access to this book, this podcast, or anything you've ever written or create in the future.
2
SPEAKER_01
But you get to leave behind three lessons to the world, three things you know to be true from all experiences in life.
2
SPEAKER_01
 What would be those three truths for you to leave behind?
2
SPEAKER_02
Do more, not less.
2
SPEAKER_02
You don't want to regret things.
2
SPEAKER_02
Number two is show gratitude.
2
SPEAKER_02
You know, it's the most powerful way to feel happy.
2
SPEAKER_02
And number three, nine times out of ten, you won't go wrong with compassion.
2
SPEAKER_01
That's beautiful, man.
2
SPEAKER_01
That's probably what it is.
2
SPEAKER_01
 Before I ask the final question, Eric, I want to acknowledge you and express gratitude for the way you continually dive into research to find solutions for us.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know, you're obsessive about how to improve our lives.
2
SPEAKER_01
And this book on relationships is really powerful because people are suffering and struggling a lot in their relationships right now.
2
SPEAKER_01
It's confusing, like you said.
2
SPEAKER_01
There's a lot of dynamics in just understanding people and understanding yourself.
2
SPEAKER_01
 So I really acknowledge you for spending years on this research, packaging it in a way so that we can understand it and start applying this in our own lives.
2
SPEAKER_01
It's really powerful, man.
2
SPEAKER_01
Thank you.
2
SPEAKER_01
You're welcome.
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And my final question, what's your definition of greatness?
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My definition of greatness?
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 a feeling of meaning in collaboration with others.
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Like when I feel my life is not happy in the moment, but I feel like I'm doing something meaningful and it's creating a feeling of belonging.
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That's one of the things I talk about in the book is that issue that what most creates a feeling of meaning is a feeling of belonging.
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When I feel meaning in life and it has to do with connecting to others,
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 Like, in the end, you're not gonna do better than that.
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Yeah, there you go.
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Eric, thanks, brother.
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Appreciate it, man.
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Thanks, man.
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Thank you so much for listening.
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I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness.
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Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links.
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And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple Podcasts as well.
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 I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most.
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And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.
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And now it's time to go out there and do something great.