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 Bring a little optimism into your life with The Bright Side, a new kind of daily podcast from Hello Sunshine, hosted by me, Danielle Robay.
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And me, Simone Boyce.
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Every weekday, we're bringing you conversations about culture, the latest trends, inspiration, and so much more.
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I am so excited about this podcast, The Bright Side.
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You guys are giving people a chance to shine a light on their lives, shine a light on a little advice that they want to share.
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 Listen to The Bright Side on America's number one podcast network, iHeart.
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Open your free iHeart app and search The Bright Side.
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This is the story of how a group of people brought music back to Afghanistan by creating their own version of American Idol.
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The joy they brought to the nation.
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You're free completely.
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No one is there to destroy you.
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The danger they endured.
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They said my head should be cut off.
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 I'm John Legend.
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Listen to Afghan Star on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Hey, everyone.
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This is Molly and Matt, and we're the hosts of Grownup Stuff How to Adult, a podcast from Ruby Studio and iHeart Podcasts.
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It's a show dedicated to helping you figure out the trickiest parts of adulting.
0
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 like how to start planning for retirement, creating a healthy skincare routine, understanding when and how much to tip someone, and so much more.
0
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Let's learn about all of it and then some.
0
SPEAKER_03
Listen to Grown Up Stuff How to Adult on America's number one podcast network, iHeart.
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Open your free iHeart app and search Grown Up Stuff.
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I think the very first thing you do is you turn inward.
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 And you sit with yourself and really think about what hurts your heart.
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When you look out at the world, what is it that makes you feel that's not right?
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There has to be a better way.
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And if you start there, then you've identified your purpose.
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 Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world, thanks to each and every single one of you who come back every week to listen, learn, and grow.
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Now, one of the things that I love about the podcast is I get to connect with people that
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 that I've seen, that I've appreciated and admired their work from afar, and then somehow we find a way to each other and get to connect and get to find out about their incredible lives, their journeys, and what they've been through.
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And today's guests are Debra Messing and Mandana Daini for the show.
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Now, Debra Messing is the best known for her Emmy Award-winning role as Grace Adler on NBC's Emmy-winning and Golden Globe-nominated comedy series, Will & Grace.
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 She's also starred in The Mysteries of Laura and Smash, both on NBC.
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Her film credits include the award-winning Searching, Along Came Polly, and The Wedding Date.
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Messing will return to Broadway this fall, starring in Noah Haidle's new play, Birthday Candles.
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Now, Mandana Daini is the creator and co-founder of I Am Voter, a nonpartisan movement that aims to create a cultural shift around voting and civic engagement.
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Its mission is to inspire and
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 excite this generation by making voter identity mainstream.
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Madonna began her career as a corporate attorney at top international law firm, Paul Hastings, transitioned into work as a talent agent, and later helped launch the Rachel Zoe Collection and lead the company's initiatives in business development, digital media, strategic investments, licensing, publishing endorsements, and television production.
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 Now, I'm so happy to have them both on the podcast today, so please give them a very big, warm, on-purpose welcome to the hosts of their own podcast, The Dissenters, produced by Deborah Messing, Mandana Dayani, Eric First, and Dia Media.
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Welcome, Deborah and Mandana.
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Deborah and Mandana, thank you so much.
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 Thank you so much for having us here.
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I hope you can feel my excitement and energy through the screen.
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I wish I could give you both a big hug and an on-premise welcome, but thank you so much for making the time to do this.
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 Well, we feel you through the screen.
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Good.
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I'm glad.
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I'm glad.
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And like I was saying to you just before we started, you're only the second double act we've ever done.
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And I always find the dynamic of having two dynamic individuals really exciting.
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So please feel free to talk over each other, to collaborate, throw your energy everywhere you like.
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There's no rules.
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So please feel free to tell me to stop talking as well.
0
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 But I want to start off because I think people are so much right now seeking connection and friendship.
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And so many of us have been struggling with loneliness or feeling disconnected or even being surrounded by lots of people, but not feeling like we're around our people right now.
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And I wanted to find out about how you both connected
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 and how you've continued to stay connected.
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Debra, you said you're in New York and Mondana, you're in LA.
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How have you stayed connected during this time?
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So how did you meet and how have you stayed connected?
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Well, Mondana and I met for a second about 15 years ago.
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And then several years ago, we were both on Nantucket Island for 4th of July.
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We had a mutual friend.
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 And I walked into the house and I saw her and I was like, I know you.
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Mandana, however, let 24 hours go by without ever even acknowledging the fact that we knew each other.
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 I just didn't want to be the person that goes up to the famous person and is like, Hi, do you remember we met 15 years ago?
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Like, no, I don't remember the person I met 15 years ago.
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So I just didn't say anything.
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And then she came up to me and she was like, How did you not say that we met before?
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And then we spent the entire vacation together.
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I we I was like, I think I was probably one of the only families that had little kids.
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And Deborah would just like was so loving and nurturing with our kids and playing with them.
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 Um, we watched a lot of tv together during the vacation and then we both I think realized how political We are and how passionate we are about activism and so I think that's really what started as as kind of like the foundation of our friendship And I was really beginning to start the work on i'm a voter and and deborah was just incredibly helpful in helping Build and create it with me and this group of amazing women that work on the campaign every day
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 So I think that's kind of how it all started.
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Yeah.
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And then we fell in love.
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And, um, because I was filming Will and Grace out in Los Angeles, basically we were, we were spending every weekend together.
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I basically, I basically was adopted by her family while I was out there.
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And, um, you know, the last three years have been, um,
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 really difficult spiritually, emotionally, mentally, physically, because of how divisive everything is.
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And we just started very organically sending each other articles and links to people who inspired us with the intention of sort of
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 you know, lifting each other up, you know, because when it gets overwhelming, sometimes you just feel like all the vitality just drains your body and you feel like, I don't know, can I keep going?
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And so these links and these people reveal, oh my God, did you see this person?
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Oh, wait, wait, I have something.
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And then you have this like pile of, you know, names of like extraordinary people.
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 And then Mandela said... Okay, wait.
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Pause.
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Pause one second.
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So Debra stays up until 6 in the morning every night.
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Debra doesn't sleep at all.
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So I'll wake up at 6 in the morning because that's when my daughters wake me up.
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And I will have a library of like a hundred of the best cat and dog videos like ever on this planet.
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 some elephant in Africa that she has been monitoring for the last two years who just had a baby or like took a bath.
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And then it'll be these like incredible activists from around the world that are doing amazing things.
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And just by the way, the spectrum of the content that she sends my way is pretty spectacular.
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But we realized how important it was to have these role models and to see the incredible things that other people are doing because
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 I think all of us have very different expectations of what it means to be an activist or what it means to be someone that gives back.
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And I think ultimately one day we thought like we should dispel some of the misperceptions around what it is to be an activist because
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 You know, it's something like Glennon Doyle, who's a friend of ours, who was on our first episode, said, like, activism is something you do in conversation, on the phone with your mom, at the bus stop, in a PTA meeting.
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Like, you can be an activist in so many ways.
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You don't have to start an organization.
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And that, I think, really, like, sat with us for a long time.
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And we're such nerds.
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So, like, for us, these people are, like, the biggest celebrities in the world.
0
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 And it kind of started as a joke, like, hey, if we launched a podcast, we could meet these people.
0
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We could make them talk to us.
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And, like, we would get their phone numbers.
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We could make them sit in a room and answer all of our questions.
0
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And so that was, like, the first thing.
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I love that.
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 We don't have to air it.
0
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They'll never know like let's just say we have a podcast and then we could just email all these people like from around the world and just be like, can you talk to us and Then we really started to put a list together and our friend owns dear media and I emailed her and I was like, hey if we wanted to do this, would you do it and she's like, of course and then all of a sudden we had a podcast and
0
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 Um, we put together like our dream list of who we wanted to speak with and I think it was really important for us it with this goal of kind of Really showing what activism is was showing people that are challenging and confronting You know the status quo, uh in so many different subjects, so whether it was like gun safety environmentalism LGBTQ rights, you know animal rescue that there's so many ways for people to show up um and
0
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 People said yes, which was incredible.
0
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And these conversations just like completely blew our minds.
0
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There are so many videos I have of Debra with her jaw just open, like on the floor for 10 minutes at a time when I would be like, hello.
0
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The thing that I can honestly say is, you know, we are such big nerds that we have no filter.
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So if these people say something extraordinary, we are screaming or we're crying
0
SPEAKER_12
 Or, you know, it's just, we are responding as if anybody in your audience was in the room and responding.
0
SPEAKER_11
Basically, we have zero chill.
0
SPEAKER_12
And we realized, you know, it was going to be launching during the pandemic.
0
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And we just really, it was important that we put something out there that was putting
0
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 light into the world that was giving people some permission, some courage, inspiration, empowerment to just take the first step, not to get beyond one step.
0
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And so far, the feedback has been really amazing.
0
SPEAKER_07
 When you find that bright spot to help you get through your day, it's powerful.
0
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That's where The Bright Side comes in.
0
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A new daily podcast from Hello Sunshine that's bringing you a daily dose of joy.
0
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I'm Danielle Robay.
0
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And I'm Simone Boyce.
0
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Listen, both Danielle and I are reporters.
0
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We've covered the news and we know the world can feel heavy, but The Bright Side podcast is a space to have a little fun, to learn something new and get into some friendly debates.
0
SPEAKER_06
 That's right.
0
SPEAKER_06
Join us five days a week to see how life can look from the bright side.
0
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We'll hear from celebrities, authors, experts and listeners like you, whether it's relationships, friend advice or figuring out how to navigate life's transitions.
0
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We'll talk through it all together.
0
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Listen to the bright side from Hello Sunshine every weekday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
0
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 Hey everyone, this is Molly and Matt and we're the hosts of Grown Up Stuff How to Adult, a podcast from Ruby Studio and iHeart Podcasts.
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It's a show dedicated to helping you figure out the trickiest parts of adulting.
0
SPEAKER_15
Like how to start planning for retirement, creating a healthy skincare routine, understanding when and how much to tip someone, and so much more.
0
SPEAKER_03
 We're back with season two of the podcast, which means more opportunities to glow up and become a more responsible and better adult, one life lesson at a time.
0
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And let me just tell you, this show is just as much for us as it is for you.
0
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So let's figure this stuff out together.
0
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This season, we're going to talk about whether or not we're financially and emotionally ready for dog ownership.
0
SPEAKER_03
 We're going to figure out the benefits of a high yield savings account.
0
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And what exactly are the duties of being a member of the wedding party?
0
SPEAKER_03
All that plus so much more.
0
SPEAKER_15
Let's learn about all of it and then some.
0
SPEAKER_15
Listen to Grown Up Stuff How to Adult on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
0
SPEAKER_04
 Guess what, Mango?
0
SPEAKER_04
What's that, Will?
0
SPEAKER_04
So iHeart is giving us a whole minute to promote our podcast, Part-Time Genius.
0
SPEAKER_05
I know.
0
SPEAKER_05
That's why I spent my whole week composing a haiku for the occasion.
0
SPEAKER_05
It's about my emotional journey in podcasting over the last seven years, and it's called Earthquake House.
0
SPEAKER_04
Mango, I'm going to cut you off right there.
0
SPEAKER_05
Why don't we just tell people about our show instead?
0
SPEAKER_05
Yeah, that's a better idea.
0
SPEAKER_05
 So every week on Part-Time Genius, we feed our curiosity by answering the world's most important questions.
0
SPEAKER_05
Things like, when did America start dialing 911?
0
SPEAKER_05
Is William Shatner's best acting work in Esperanto?
0
SPEAKER_05
Also, what happened to Esperanto?
0
SPEAKER_04
 Plus, we cover questions like how Chinese is your Chinese food?
0
SPEAKER_04
How do dollar stores stay in business?
0
SPEAKER_04
And of course, is there an Illuminati of cheese?
0
SPEAKER_05
There absolutely is.
0
SPEAKER_05
And we are risking our lives by talking about it.
0
SPEAKER_05
But if you love mind-blowing facts, incredible history and really bad jokes, make your brains happy and tune in to Part-Time Genius.
0
SPEAKER_04
Listen to Part-Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
0
SPEAKER_13
 That's incredible.
0
SPEAKER_13
Thank you so much.
0
SPEAKER_13
I can totally see why.
0
SPEAKER_13
You're both just electric to watch together.
0
SPEAKER_13
Even through a Zoom call, I'm like, this is amazing.
0
SPEAKER_13
I wish I was in Nantucket that weekend and got to spend it with both of you.
0
SPEAKER_13
But tell me about how I find that
0
SPEAKER_13
 And I love the way you both speak about activism.
0
SPEAKER_13
I feel like it's very refreshing.
0
SPEAKER_13
And at the same time, I do feel that it's very real and genuine and authentic to who you are.
0
SPEAKER_13
And I guess my first question is, you said that you both just sparked and found that you both had this activism in common.
0
SPEAKER_13
 But I find like for a lot of people, they actually struggle to share their opinions and beliefs and their values with each other, especially even in small circles where you could be living with someone or friends with someone and not have a clue what their personal opinion or belief or activism is on a subject.
0
SPEAKER_13
I don't know if you hear that, but I hear a lot of that in the community of like,
0
SPEAKER_13
 I just had no idea that this person felt this way or I had no idea that my mother or my father or my cousin or whatever it is had this challenge or limiting belief or battle.
0
SPEAKER_13
 How did, how have you both encouraged open, honest conversations, even when you disagree with each other or have different views?
0
SPEAKER_13
Or how have you encouraged other people to just start having those, like you said with Glennon, by the way, I love Glennon, she's been on the podcast too.
0
SPEAKER_13
And it's, you know, yeah, in the, in the definition she gave of like at the bus stop on a phone call, how have you encouraged people to start feeling like they can have those conversations with confidence?
0
SPEAKER_12
Well, Mandana, I think you know the answer to this because
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 You, your journey to America, I think shaped a lot of how you perceive things.
0
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Yeah, I was actually going to say two things.
0
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I think
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 on one hand and so many times when you're an activist like you just feel like you're standing naked in the middle of the street, right because Every you're you know I know that my beliefs irritate some of my friends and some of my family members and i'm such a people pleaser So for me to walk into a room knowing that i've offended somebody or someone doesn't agree with me And to be able to be okay with that I think was a very long journey for me to become okay with so I understand the hesitation because you don't want to irritate people like we're kind of
0
SPEAKER_11
 were bred to be peacekeepers.
0
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Culturally, I was always raised that way, too.
0
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I came from a very traditional family, and you're a woman, and you're supposed to be the peacekeeper of the family.
0
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 And so it it took me a long time to be okay with it But at the same time I think also knowing that i'm entering a room as myself was incredibly liberating to not Pretend to be something that I was I think my whole life I had struggled with I have to be perfect.
0
SPEAKER_11
And so I created these presentations I would there was the representative of mandana that you would meet and she was perfect and she was so smart and she was like the coolest person ever but it was so fake and keeping up it up was driving me insane and so
0
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 I understand the fear of speaking up because you know that you will disappoint some people, but it is so liberating to actually be who you are.
0
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And it's so weird.
0
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It's so empowering.
0
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Like I feel more powerful than I've ever felt.
0
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 I have acquired incredible people in my life.
0
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You are now going to be my friend.
0
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But, you know, and you all of a sudden feel like you're surrounded by all these other amazing people.
0
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And that is kind of how you, that security is so refreshing.
0
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You know, I came to this country, to Deborah's point, we came as religious refugees.
0
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So I was about six years old and that was very formative.
0
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I think, you know, I was always raised with this hustle of just like,
0
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 Take it till you make it pretend to be American pretend to fit in like just hustle, hustle, hustle.
0
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No one's here to save you if you fall.
0
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And so I think that made me work.
0
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Harder than most people and maybe really, really ambitious to like live the American dream.
0
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And we did like my brother's a surgeon.
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I was a lawyer.
0
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It was amazing.
0
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We did all the things.
0
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Um, but I think
0
SPEAKER_11
 In a weird way, I was never raised with a question of like what actually makes you happy.
0
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No one ever asked me that everything that made me happy was like, that's a hobby.
0
SPEAKER_11
Oh, you like those things you can do that on Sundays at 4pm but it was very much like
0
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 Have a job, you know be safe blah blah blah and and i'd never really learned to challenge my own beliefs or the things that I didn't agree with culturally with my family with the things that I was taught and I think it took a really long time to actually like Honor my own voice But it also took the courage of people like and friends like deborah and other active, you know Sophia bush who I know you're friends with who's a very close friend of mine
0
SPEAKER_11
 You know would just be like say it girl.
0
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You got it.
0
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Just go and and that you know that kind of encouragement And that's why community is so important.
0
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It's so so so important.
0
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Um
0
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 Shannon Watts, who has been a friend of both of ours, really my mentor through all of my activism, is someone I check in with all the time.
0
SPEAKER_11
And I'm like, is this okay?
0
SPEAKER_11
And that is, I think, in this space of really gaining your voice and honoring your voice, having friends that push you and just tell you to keep going, that tell you it's okay.
0
SPEAKER_11
 Because like you make mistakes like as an activist like and you know this you'll say things they'll hurt people's feelings you say things and sometimes they're incorrect and having Your friends show up for you and be like, you know what that wasn't cool And this is the way to do it is so important and to have people that say you know what?
0
SPEAKER_11
Learn from it and keep going because we still need you
0
SPEAKER_11
 And I think surrounding yourself with people who will be honest with you, but also hold you up so you can keep going is so important.
0
SPEAKER_02
When the Taliban banned music in Afghanistan, millions were plunged into silence.
0
SPEAKER_02
Radios were smashed, cassettes burned.
0
SPEAKER_02
You could be beaten or jailed or killed for breaking the rules.
0
SPEAKER_02
And yet, Afghans did it anyway.
0
SPEAKER_02
 This is the story of how a group of people brought music back to Afghanistan by creating their own version of American Idol.
0
SPEAKER_02
The danger they endured.
0
SPEAKER_09
They said my head should be cut off.
0
SPEAKER_02
The joy they brought to the nation.
0
SPEAKER_00
You're free completely.
0
SPEAKER_00
No one is there to destroy you.
0
SPEAKER_02
 I'm John Legend.
0
SPEAKER_02
Listen to Afghan Star on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
0
SPEAKER_14
 A new season of Bridgerton is here.
0
SPEAKER_14
And with it, a new season of Bridgerton, the official podcast.
0
SPEAKER_14
I'm your host, Gabrielle Collins.
0
SPEAKER_14
And this season, we are bringing fans even deeper into the ton.
0
SPEAKER_14
Colin Bridgerton has returned from his travels abroad.
0
SPEAKER_14
Is Betrothal written in the stars for the eligible bachelor?
0
SPEAKER_14
 Meanwhile, the ton is reverberating with speculation of who holds Lady Whistledown's pen.
0
SPEAKER_14
We're discussing it all.
0
SPEAKER_14
I sit down with Nicola Coughlin, Luke Newton, Shonda Rhimes, and more to offer an exclusive peek behind the scenes of each episode of the new season.
0
SPEAKER_14
 Watch season three of the Shondaland series on Netflix.
0
SPEAKER_14
Then fall in love all over again by listening to Bridgerton, the official podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
0
SPEAKER_14
Subscribe to catch a new episode every Thursday.
0
SPEAKER_16
 Parents, ready to discover a new educational and interactive podcast for kids?
0
SPEAKER_16
Join Stories for Kids by Lingokids, where episodes are packed with fun activities.
0
SPEAKER_16
Right, Elliot?
0
SPEAKER_16
Oh, yes!
0
SPEAKER_16
We learned how to recycle at the beach.
0
SPEAKER_16
 That was great fun!
0
SPEAKER_16
Cowie, what do you say?
0
SPEAKER_03
It was!
0
SPEAKER_03
And that time when we did the science experiments and Billy made raisins dance!
0
SPEAKER_03
That is so cool, Billy!
0
SPEAKER_16
He did!
0
SPEAKER_16
Not to mention when a certain Elliot took up swimming classes with Lisa.
0
SPEAKER_16
 That was me!
0
SPEAKER_16
Bet you can't catch me.
0
SPEAKER_16
I'm going to get you!
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SPEAKER_16
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SPEAKER_13
 Thank you so much for sharing that about your background as well.
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SPEAKER_13
It's truly inspirational.
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SPEAKER_13
And it's amazing to hear how much you had achieved to then question it all.
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And I always think that requires a lot of courage and strength to do that.
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SPEAKER_13
 And so I just want to take a moment to recognize that, if anybody's listening or watching right now, that the hardest thing to do is achieve something, and then the hardest thing to do is achieve it, and then question everything you've achieved, and then find and create a new path for yourself.
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SPEAKER_13
So yeah, thank you so much for sharing that.
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SPEAKER_13
I don't want to dissect so much of it, but I feel like you were just about to say something, Deborah, so I don't want to cut you off.
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What were you saying?
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SPEAKER_12
I was just saying the importance of mentors, the importance of finding the leaders that speak your language,
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 or who inspire you and to follow their lead and to learn.
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SPEAKER_12
I think it is a learned skill to speak your truth.
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SPEAKER_12
I'm already 50, and it took probably the first 35, 40 years of my life to finally
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SPEAKER_12
 be okay with people not agreeing with me and not liking that I'm voicing my truth.
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SPEAKER_12
And, um, you know, like what Madonna was saying, you know, so, so many of us, you know, we are people pleasers and it is, um, it's suffocating and it, it really does strip you of,
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SPEAKER_12
 a capacity for joy, I think.
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SPEAKER_12
At least that was the case for me, you know, especially as a professional actress, you know, I, to get a job, you are constantly dancing as fast as you can and put it, you know, it's, it's like you are performing, trying to be nice, trying to be amiable, trying to be, you know, that person, that one person that that, that person wants to work with.
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And, um, it,
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 Living in that headspace really made me realize that it was unhealthy for me.
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SPEAKER_12
I was choosing to sacrifice my self-esteem, essentially, because by silencing yourself, you are saying that your voice has no value.
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SPEAKER_12
 And as soon as I, you know, for me, it was professional, it was being pushed too far.
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And finally saying, no, that's not okay.
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I must be respected.
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I respect you.
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And being okay with whatever fallout happened afterwards.
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And that has happened many times, you know, in my adult life.
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And I think I realize now,
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 you know, the people that will not, uh, cannot tolerate a different point of view, um, are not people that they're not my people, you know?
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SPEAKER_12
Um, you know, I, I was raised, uh, with inclusive as a celebrity being, you know, at the center of everything.
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Um,
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 And so for me, it's like, yes, you can have one opinion.
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I can have the other.
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SPEAKER_12
We could have a very passionate debate about our different points of view, but we can still at the end of that conversation say, I hear you.
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SPEAKER_12
It just doesn't sit right with, it's just doesn't, it's not my truth, but I still love you and I still respect you and God bless.
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SPEAKER_12
 You know, and yeah, totally, right?
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SPEAKER_13
Yeah, I love hearing that because I think, and I'm so glad we're having this conversation.
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And by the way, I'm ignoring all of my notes and completely just in excluded these conversations.
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SPEAKER_13
But that's because it's going in such a, flowing in such a beautiful, natural and organic way.
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SPEAKER_13
But what you said there, Debra and Mandana, what you were saying also is like, I feel that so often,
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SPEAKER_13
 activism can become very attack and defense.
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SPEAKER_13
When actually, and what I'm hearing, and by the way, you can totally correct me and I'm here to learn from both of you, so please completely tell me that I'm not.
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SPEAKER_00
 hearing it right.
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SPEAKER_00
But what I'm hearing is that often we see as an attack and defense, but what I'm hearing from both of you, I was talking about a friend today, this morning, who was talking about this and literally said these words to me, he said, you know,
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SPEAKER_00
 so much of activism is attack and defense, but actually what we need is understanding and compassion and that non-judgment aspect that you're both mentioning of being able to be open to the fact that other people will have different beliefs and being able to hold that space in that conversation.
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SPEAKER_00
Because I feel like the other extreme of cancel culture
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SPEAKER_00
 is actually more, I would love to get your thoughts on cancel culture because I have my own and mine are that, and Mandana, you said this, you said, you know, we all make mistakes as activists.
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SPEAKER_00
And so when we run into things like cancel culture, we run into things like attacking or defensive activism, often what we end up doing is we end up closing the doors on people to actually change and have an opportunity to adopt a new mindset.
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SPEAKER_00
 Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
My belief is kind of like, I'm okay with someone not having the same viewpoint as me, but I believe I need to be patient for there to be an evolution of ideation.
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Not that they learn mine, but that we find some way not to agree, but that there is a space for growth.
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Does that make sense?
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SPEAKER_02
 Totally.
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SPEAKER_02
We talk about this quite a bit too.
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SPEAKER_02
I think there's two things actually that you just brought up.
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One is I think some people come to a conversation and they don't want to be wrong.
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So they don't want to hear what you have to say because what you're saying goes against what they believed and for them to admit that means they have to admit that they may have had the wrong opinion and they just double down.
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SPEAKER_02
 And and that is is just something that I think just requires like time for people to Feel comfortable letting go of and being okay being wrong.
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SPEAKER_02
Um, and that person I find is is very hard to convince in the moment and they'll take time and usually empathy and compassion and
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SPEAKER_02
 You know, it's it's really like we're all just people like we all have stories I think that's all you know, all these stories all these activism is just people like it's kindness.
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SPEAKER_02
It's what I teach my five-year-old, right?
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SPEAKER_02
It's Activism is just kindness and in a more formal way, right?
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It's if you all just focus on caring about other people and showing up for them
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SPEAKER_02
 Um, then then the world feels very different.
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SPEAKER_02
I think with cancel culture, you know, we talk about this quite a bit obviously there's spectrums and it depends on on what it is, but for the most part, I think A lot of us say things, you know, and it's hard.
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I don't know everything deborah doesn't know everything.
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Most activists don't know everything We're going to make mistakes.
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We're taking risks every single day
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 to stand up for people's rights.
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We may call it the wrong thing.
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We may spell it incorrectly.
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Like, don't cancel people for stuff like that.
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It's not okay.
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It's really hard to do that work.
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And sometimes I, you know, I'll confront, you know, someone will confront me about something and I'm like, okay, well, you try doing what they're doing and come back at me and tell me how easy it is.
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SPEAKER_02
I mean, it's, you know, someone was getting mad at Shannon the other day.
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I'm like, she's going against the NRA.
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Like, it's not that easy.
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 And I think there just has to be some patience with people, because we are going to lose a lot of the good guys if we don't give them an opportunity to learn from the mistakes and grow.
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SPEAKER_02
I think most of these people have very good intentions, and I do believe that matters.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, absolutely.
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SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
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SPEAKER_01
I also think that the source of this combativeness
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SPEAKER_01
 of in terms of opposite ideas, I think it's all fed by fear.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, absolutely.
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SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
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SPEAKER_00
I couldn't agree with you more.
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SPEAKER_00
That's why we choose to attack or defend, right?
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SPEAKER_00
It's almost like animalistic in that sense of territorial nature that we can sometimes mimic in our own lives.
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SPEAKER_00
 Let's say I know that my community and audience can learn so much from both of you, and they already are, and I know so many of them want to be activists or want to be activated to do something.
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SPEAKER_00
Can you give them some guidance and advice on where you start that journey?
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SPEAKER_00
Because I feel like we've talked about, so many people get scared, and fear does one of two things.
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SPEAKER_00
It makes you shout the loudest, or it makes you become the quietest.
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SPEAKER_01
 Yes.
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Fear does that.
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Fear makes you hide.
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It makes you just jump up and shout out and do all these things.
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And so it's like fear doesn't drive us in a positive.
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SPEAKER_00
It can spark positivity, but it can't sustain positivity.
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SPEAKER_00
And that's what I find with fear as an emotion.
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SPEAKER_00
It can get you active.
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SPEAKER_00
But if you had to give people a step-by-step process of how you feel that they can get activated, how would you suggest that?
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SPEAKER_00
And that's to both of you.
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SPEAKER_01
Well, I think the very first thing
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 you do is you turn inward and you sit with yourself and really think about what hurts your heart.
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When you look out at the world, what is it that makes you feel that's not right?
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There has to be a better way.
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And if you start there,
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 then you've identified your purpose.
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Your cause is your purpose.
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And then if you feel shy about taking a step, it's help the helpers, really.
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SPEAKER_01
It's finding the people who are doing the work that you admire and just saying, I wanna be near you.
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SPEAKER_01
 How can I help you?
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Because you'll learn so much just being a part of it even from the outside and eventually that will build your confidence and it will give you a voice and you will be able to take the next step.
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SPEAKER_00
 I love that.
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SPEAKER_00
Great, great piece of it.
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SPEAKER_00
Mandana, before we dive into yours as well, I just wanted to reflect on a couple of those.
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I love the idea of going inward first.
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I know for me, it's been really interesting to go inward first and be like, okay, well, where am I demonstrating what I'm being an activist for?
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SPEAKER_00
Where am I actually acting wrongly in another area of my life?
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SPEAKER_00
 So, you know, like discrimination as a subject, if someone is not being discriminating in a particular area of their life, maybe I am in another area of my life and I'm unconscious.
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SPEAKER_00
It's an unconscious bias that exists there.
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And I think going inward is such a powerful way because it sparks compassion automatically because you're like, oh wow, I had it too.
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SPEAKER_00
I have that challenge too.
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But I also love what you're saying about
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 you know, really having that joining of another community or another team that's doing it because sometimes I think we feel so alone that we have to start something.
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SPEAKER_00
And Mandana, you referred to this earlier, like, you know, you feel like you have to do all on your own.
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You have to feel like it's a lonely path to go and build your own.
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SPEAKER_00
You think you have to go and build your own charity or build your own foundation and supporting someone else's can be a great start.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I love that.
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SPEAKER_00
Mandana, any other thoughts that you wanted to add to that?
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SPEAKER_02
 I think to your point about failure, you know, I hear this a lot about people are afraid of failing and I always expect that you can't fail in activism because anything is more than nothing, right?
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Failing is not honoring what it is that keeps you up at night.
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And so, I mean, to Deborah's point, there are so many people doing amazing work.
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I got a DM yesterday from someone that was like, I'm a graphic designer, do you need help?
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I cannot tell you how badly we needed help yesterday on graphic design.
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It was like,
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 Godson, we were so happy and maybe that you know do that two hours a week and just start and you'll learn about the organization and now you're volunteering for them and then you can do more and you can do more and you can meet more people and There's so many ways to just show up.
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SPEAKER_02
There's so many communities that you can join just by texting a phone number and then all of a sudden you're getting messages of ways that you can volunteer and ways to show up and community is
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SPEAKER_02
 Again, I keep saying it, but it is so important.
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SPEAKER_02
When we started I'm a voter, it was like, I identified a need and all that happened was I emailed 25 of the smartest people I've ever worked with and was like, can we all meet on Sunday?
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And then it all happened.
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It had nothing to do with me.
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All I did was get everyone together.
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 And I think that time together regularly, you realize like all of a sudden these are your people.
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They're your friends.
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They're like, we help each other in business.
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We show up for each other.
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We always rally.
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And I think just anything I've ever regretted in my life was something I didn't do because I was afraid of it.
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Those are my only regrets in life.
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Like I just wish that I had gone harder for the things that I was scared of.
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SPEAKER_01
 And to your point about racism, we're in a flashpoint right now.
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This is a turning point in our history.
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And there are a lot of people who are waking up.
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I think what has shown me is that we're all students all the time.
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It doesn't matter how old we are.
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 I may feel like my heart is full of love and compassion and I have committed decades of my life to helping people.
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SPEAKER_01
Obviously, I'm a white privileged woman.
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I have an implicit bias.
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 I have never been educated.
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I have never taken the responsibility on myself to educate myself.
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And now, because of this moment, you know, I have all of these new books and a new vocabulary to talk about something that I thought for the bulk of my life wasn't really an issue for me.
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SPEAKER_01
 And then all of a sudden it was like the curtain came up and it was like, oh, no, no, no.
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Okay, now it's my accountability.
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It's my responsibility to be accountable.
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And I think that also plays into that feeling of wanting to get involved, is just being a part of the global community.
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 I remember Mondana called me right when the crisis on the border was starting, and she just got on a bus and went down to the Mexican border just to witness it, to see it with her eyes, to see the children.
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I literally just could not believe it.
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It was just no part of my brain could reconcile that this was happening in my lifetime.
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 And that wasn't her issue.
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But she just saw something that was, it had to, she had to participate in some way.
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And it changed her forever, witnessing that.
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You know, I do think the thing that I struggle with, when you talk about people who have opposite views coming and finding a space where they both can coexist,
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SPEAKER_01
 I personally am struggling right now with, for an example of the Mexican border, the idea that there are children in cages.
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As a mother, that just destroys me.
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That keeps me up at night.
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 So I can't imagine anyone who would support putting children in cages and, and stealing them from their parents.
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But there are people who are just as passionate about that being the right thing.
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And so with that example, I don't know that there is a space for us.
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SPEAKER_01
I think that we could say, I disagree with you.
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I disagree with you, but,
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 you know, to come together and to sort of, to take some of each other's points of view and fold it into ours.
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SPEAKER_01
I think that there are certain things where that just is not possible, or at least it's not possible for me right now in my life.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, no, no, I get that.
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SPEAKER_00
That's a really important point to raise.
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SPEAKER_00
And there's always going to be certain things when you look at them,
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SPEAKER_00
 through that lens, it's impossible, right?
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SPEAKER_00
Like, none of us can sit here and figure out what's going through someone's mind.
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SPEAKER_00
And I think, Mandana, when you're talking about being there, can you tell us a bit more detail about what your experience was and what it was that really, like, pushed you and, you know, that moved you in that moment, as Debra was referring to?
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 Yeah, that day changed my life.
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I had my daughter, my second daughter, and she was a month and a couple months old and I was home on maternity leave.
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So I was just kind of in this natural pause, which I never had been before.
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SPEAKER_02
 You know, as someone who came to this, coming to America is very scary.
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Like when we landed in New York, New York is one of the scariest places in the world to go to.
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It's this huge city.
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You know, we didn't speak any English.
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We had no idea where we were going.
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We had no money.
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And all I did was just hold my mom's hand and that was like, I was going to be okay.
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Like we had no idea what we were going to do.
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We didn't know what tomorrow was going to bring, but like I had my mom, I was six years old and it was going to be fine.
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The idea that someone,
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 so vulnerable that they would travel through for months.
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 Through forests and water knowing they could die to come to america for the same reasons We all did which was to have a chance at a better life to have safety to have security to have health care And then somebody would take your kid away from you and for the kid take your mom away from you when you just Went through the scariest experience of your life and you are in a completely unknown place And you probably don't speak the language and you don't know anyone here and you have no money left
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SPEAKER_02
 I cannot understand is a human rights issue.
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It is not a political issue.
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There is no way I can have a conversation with someone that can say that that is justified.
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SPEAKER_02
It was entirely punitive.
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And you do not punish children like that.
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That kid will never be the same.
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SPEAKER_02
 I still remember how horrifying the experience was of living in a war and having to sleep downstairs during bombings I mean the idea that we put these people in these and gave them like aluminum foil blankets and they had no idea where their parents were As a mother when you're in the grocery store and your daughter like my daughter turns the aisle and I don't know where she is for one second not one second is a hundred years like that is
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SPEAKER_02
 Such triggering pain and for these we lost some of these children like we have never found them We put them they like wrote their names on a post-it note and gave it to someone and it was like Martha like what?
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SPEAKER_02
We don't know where some of these kids are.
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We've never reunited them with their family.
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Some of these kids have been orphaned It is it was just and and I was looking at it I'm like, but this is America America is the greatest place in the world America saved my family America You know, I was always raised like America is the greatest thing in the world
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SPEAKER_02
 And I love america and I believe that a true patriot challenges america, right?
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We uphold it to its potential And so it's okay to say that we're doing things wrong, but it's also important to fight for what is better And I just got on a plane and I went to texas.
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SPEAKER_02
I was like that was where the first Camp was where these kids were being held and I was like, I I need to see this I I cannot I don't believe it.
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SPEAKER_02
I couldn't believe that that was happening and then I quit my job and
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SPEAKER_02
 started doing all the things, but it was, it was, it just was one of those moments where you realize like what is happening is bigger than me and whatever aspirations I have to do whatever it was I thought at that time was more important.
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SPEAKER_00
 Wow.
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SPEAKER_00
I mean, yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
I mean, thank you again for sharing that.
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SPEAKER_00
It's just, just hearing it, like, you know, it was, it's so real just hearing it and it's, there's no part of it that can feel normal or okay or comfortable to even hear it.
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SPEAKER_00
And it's, what's, what's so hard I feel, and I'm trying to just,
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SPEAKER_00
 really share with you what I'm hearing from so many people.
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SPEAKER_00
And that's kind of, I'm just trying to be in that learning seat from both of you.
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SPEAKER_00
I think for so many people, they're just like, I'm so overwhelmed by everything going wrong in the world, right?
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SPEAKER_00
Like we talked about it right at the beginning.
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SPEAKER_00
And it's like, I'm just so overwhelmed by everything that's going wrong.
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SPEAKER_00
Like this is going wrong.
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SPEAKER_00
And then the political stuff directly is going wrong.
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SPEAKER_00
And then I've got challenges in my own family and the economy struggling.
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SPEAKER_00
And that kind of like paralyzes a lot of people.
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SPEAKER_02
 Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
You just feel debilitated by all of this because you just like so much pressure and so much overwhelm.
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SPEAKER_00
And then you watch the news and you turn on the news and you don't know if the information you're getting is correct.
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SPEAKER_00
And then you're trying to do research and you struggle.
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SPEAKER_00
Can you tell us some people or places that you've started to and you spoke about mentors and people in your lives who have been the people in the places or the books that have you feel have really given you both
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SPEAKER_00
 an insight into reality or how can people get as close to reality as possible so that they don't feel misinformed or overwhelmed, which sometimes can be very real and sometimes can be excuses, right?
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SPEAKER_00
We both know that they can be both for us.
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SPEAKER_00
Sometimes they're just crutches and we're just like, ah, you know, I don't really have time or can't be bothered.
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SPEAKER_00
And then sometimes it's real.
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SPEAKER_00
It's just like, whoa, I just, I'm an empath and I'm feeling the pain and it's a lot.
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SPEAKER_00
And so
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 What have you found for you and the people that you're working with to help you push out from that despite just, for me, it's just seeing the pain.
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SPEAKER_00
Like for me, it's like hearing and seeing the pain just makes you want to rush there.
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SPEAKER_00
But what have been some of the like guides in that journey?
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Who are those people?
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What are those places?
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What are those books?
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What are those communities or organizations where you see that happening?
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SPEAKER_01
Well, I mean, we've mentioned Shannon Watts.
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You know, we've learned so much about
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SPEAKER_01
 the pain of gun violence and the impact it's had on our children from her.
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SPEAKER_01
Glennon Doyle, you know, Representative Adam Schiff, you know, who gave that beautiful closing speech at the end of the impeachment about
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SPEAKER_01
 the America that we all deserve, that we have yet to attain.
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SPEAKER_01
These are people who, when they speak, it comforts me, and I trust them, and I feel like I'm learning every time I follow them.
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SPEAKER_01
I also, I'm on Twitter.
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SPEAKER_01
I had to be on Twitter because of my job.
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SPEAKER_01
I hadn't for years.
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SPEAKER_01
 Um, and what I've done is I just have started to follow professors and, um, you know, professionals in our government, people who are, you know, professionals in the health department, you know, right now with COVID, just trying to understand and to go to the, to the source, to experts.
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SPEAKER_01
Um, so that, so that I feel that I have a touchstone, um, because
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SPEAKER_01
 We don't know.
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I think a couple of things.
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SPEAKER_02
One is that for the people that use it as a crutch or as an excuse, I'm like,
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SPEAKER_02
 I get it.
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SPEAKER_02
I don't like paying my mortgage There's some things like you're just an adult and you have to do and you should know what's happening in the world Like the the baseline like it's important to be informed Um, I do think like acknowledging your mental health and how you're responding to things is really important so there are days where I I see deborah and i'm like it's too much like you turn off your phone turn off your computer like Shut it down and like go hang out with your son and watch a movie And so I I do think that when you are too overwhelmed you do need to honor that and and kind of take a pause I think
1
SPEAKER_02
 You know, it's hard because the news can feel very divisive.
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SPEAKER_02
You know, it is so like
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SPEAKER_02
 click baity and you know, it's ratings driven now that it just feels like you're watching like a Never-ending football game of people just screaming at each other.
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SPEAKER_02
Um, and so I mean I personally followed so does deborah But we follow jessica yellen.
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SPEAKER_02
Um, she is she does news not noise and so her whole platform is is amazing and she you know, she I text her all day and i'm like Is this supposed to bother me and she'll be like no that's not important.
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SPEAKER_02
It's okay
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SPEAKER_02
 So people like her, and Preet Bharara, who's also someone we covered, he, you know, the way that Preet thinks about justice in America is so, I just admire it so much.
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SPEAKER_02
And so I really respect the way that he talks about the political issues that happen and how they affect everybody and kind of how, it doesn't really feel partisan when he speaks about it.
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SPEAKER_02
It really feels like he comes at it from like,
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SPEAKER_02
 a patriot who loves America, who understands the foundation of law and how we need to uphold the integrity of America.
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SPEAKER_02
And I would say, I don't know, I mean, there's a million more, but I would say those for me are, sorry?
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SPEAKER_01
Stacey Abrams.
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SPEAKER_01
Stacey Abrams is someone who I look to and follow, and I try to follow by example and learn from her.
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SPEAKER_01
 I think that there are shining lights everywhere if you look for them.
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SPEAKER_01
But Mondana is absolutely right.
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SPEAKER_01
I mean, I'm an empath.
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SPEAKER_01
So I get completely overwhelmed.
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SPEAKER_01
And I can just get stuck and feel like I have to do more.
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SPEAKER_01
I have to do more.
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SPEAKER_01
Oh my God, did you see this and this and this and this and this?
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SPEAKER_01
And I do need to turn to
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SPEAKER_01
 the people who I love and love me and know me to say, okay, you're not in a good space right now.
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SPEAKER_01
You need to just stop and go play the piano because that heals your heart, you know?
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SPEAKER_01
And watch stupid television for a while.
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SPEAKER_01
I do think that- Lord knows we are very good at that.
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SPEAKER_01
And I'm really good at sleeping.
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SPEAKER_01
 That's a great skill.
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SPEAKER_00
Sleeping is a great skill.
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SPEAKER_00
I'm grateful for the way we've taken this conversation because I do think that what you're both doing and what you both stand for
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SPEAKER_00
 is community and uniting for change, which I believe are heavy topics to talk about.
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SPEAKER_00
I can see that in the emotion on your faces and just the stories you're telling.
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SPEAKER_00
These are heavy topics, but the problem is that if we don't take them on, they're not getting any lighter.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Right.
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SPEAKER_00
And, you know, I think that's something that we can all agree on that if something's heavy and you don't pick it up, it stays heavy and gets heavier.
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SPEAKER_02
But to your point, Jay, I think the thing that we try to talk a lot about in the podcast also is this, like, ask questions.
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SPEAKER_02
I think people don't want to sound dumb.
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SPEAKER_02
And so they're afraid
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SPEAKER_02
 To ask the things that they don't know and and the activists and the communities that that are speaking actually are like thrilled that someone's asking them, you know, like we had someone on who's talking about you know, what it felt, you know, their whole journey being a trans athlete and and we were like Sorry
1
SPEAKER_02
 Can you explain to us like pronouns?
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SPEAKER_02
How does that work?
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SPEAKER_02
Like, how do you, do you ask someone what their pronoun is?
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SPEAKER_02
Like, do you share yours?
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SPEAKER_02
Like how did, you know, Deborah presented a real life example.
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SPEAKER_02
What was the right way?
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SPEAKER_02
And he was like, thank you so much for asking.
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SPEAKER_02
I'm so thrilled to share this.
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SPEAKER_02
And that has been our experience every single time.
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SPEAKER_02
And so sometimes fear becomes this barrier to you actually really even evolving your empathy in an issue.
1
SPEAKER_02
And so I think one of the other things I should have mentioned earlier is to just like,
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SPEAKER_02
 Ask questions.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
Who in your podcast has surprised you the most with a perspective or an insight that kind of like shocked you in a state with you or a moment or an experience where you're just like, oh, like that, you know, that really made sense to me or that really broke through the noise for me, for each of you.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'd love one from each of you.
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SPEAKER_00
It'd be great.
1
SPEAKER_01
Well, I, I, I think, um, Amanda Min, uh, she is not yet 30.
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SPEAKER_01
 And she was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.
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SPEAKER_01
She was a student at Harvard and was raped in her senior year.
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SPEAKER_01
And the justice system was not there for her.
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SPEAKER_01
And she realized that a law in Massachusetts didn't exist that should exist.
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SPEAKER_01
And she said, well, so I just decided to write it myself.
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SPEAKER_01
 Like what?
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SPEAKER_01
And I looked at her and I'm like, wait a second, wait a second.
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SPEAKER_01
You're a survivor of a terrifying attack.
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SPEAKER_01
You don't have any structure or any support system.
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SPEAKER_01
 And your impulse is, I will do it myself.
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SPEAKER_01
And she said, well, obviously, I don't know the language.
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SPEAKER_01
So I went to Harvard Law School.
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SPEAKER_01
And I found a professor.
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SPEAKER_01
And I said, look, this is what I want to do.
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SPEAKER_01
Will you help me write this law?
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SPEAKER_01
And he said, sure.
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SPEAKER_01
And it was passed.
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SPEAKER_01
 100% of it was passed.
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SPEAKER_01
And now there are how many laws in 30?
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SPEAKER_01
I don't know something.
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SPEAKER_01
It's crazy.
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SPEAKER_00
It's amazing.
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SPEAKER_01
You know, she ended up writing a survivor's bill of rights that is now being incorporated all over the country.
1
SPEAKER_01
But it started, you know, it was that moment of her just saying, All right, well, I'll just write it myself that really just
1
SPEAKER_01
 I think I had that reaction because deep down, I don't think of myself as a leader.
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SPEAKER_01
I think of myself as a student who is willing to work really, really hard.
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SPEAKER_01
And so for me, someone is a leader when they say, I will write the law.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I just have, until that moment, it never even occurred to me that I could do that.
1
SPEAKER_01
 And here is this 20-something-year-old who did it.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Yeah, I didn't know that story.
1
SPEAKER_00
I'm so glad that your podcast and your conversations are unearthing things like that for everyone to realize, because you're spot on, Debra.
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SPEAKER_00
It's like, until you know someone has done it, you don't even think about it.
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SPEAKER_00
You don't even think about who makes the lures, unless you've obviously been in law school, but if you're not, then you just, you have no idea.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's amazing.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's absolutely incredible.
1
SPEAKER_00
What episode was that, out of interest, just so that my audience can go check it out?
1
SPEAKER_01
That was our second one, right after Glennon.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Okay, amazing.
1
SPEAKER_00
Everyone, then you heard that.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's one that I'm going to go listen to straight after this podcast.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I really, really hope that you guys go and listen to that one.
1
SPEAKER_02
She is honestly amazing.
1
SPEAKER_02
Oh, by the way, we forgot to add, she calls herself a civil rights astronaut.
1
SPEAKER_02
So she found her way into an internship at NASA.
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SPEAKER_02
 And everything that she does is informed by her beliefs in NASA and so by space travel.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I was like, what are you saying?
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean, the whole time Debra and I were like, what is she doing?