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Coming up next on Passion Strike.
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For me, individualizing epigenetics can be done right now and in a very easy way.
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So we first start from the universal principles.
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In general, we know that an epigenetically complete diet involves
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animal foods and plant foods, we know how these foods nourish our epigenome.
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Then we need to personalize to people preferences and conditions.
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Welcome to Passion Struck.
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Hi, I m your host, John R. Miles.
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And on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips and guidance of the world s most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you.
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Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself.
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If you re new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays.
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We have long-form interviews the rest of the week with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes.
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Now, let s go out there and become Passion Struck.
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Hello everyone, and welcome back to episode 384 of Passion Struck.
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Consistently ranked by Apple, it s one of the top 10 most popular health podcasts globally, and the number one alternative health podcast in the world.
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And thank you to all of you who come back weekly to listen and learn how to live better, be better, and impact the world.
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I am so excited to announce that I just learned my new book, Passion Struck, was selected by the Next Big Idea Club as one of their must-read books for 2024.
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Absolutely a humbling recognition.
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It s now available for pre-order, and you can find it at Amazon or on the PassionStruck website.
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Throughout the months of December and January, I will be using my solo episodes to discuss different aspects of the book, leading up to its launch.
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This past week, I covered the topic of self-doubt, if you want to go back and review that.
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If you re new to the show, thank you so much for being here.
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Or you simply want to introduce this to a friend or a family member, we have episode starter packs, which are collections of our fans  favorite episodes that we organize into convenient topics that give any new listener a great way to get acclimated to everything we do here on the show.
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Either go to Spotify or passionstruck.com slash starter packs to get started.
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Last week, I had two phenomenal interviews.
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The first was with retired astronaut, Dr. Mike Massimino.
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From growing up as a working-class kid with a dream as vast as the cosmos, to strapping himself into a NASA space shuttle and orbiting our beautiful planet, Mike has experienced a journey that is nothing short of extraordinary.
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In our interview, we discuss his new book, Moonshot, which is not just
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a memoir.
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It s a roadmap for success that s packed with wit, wisdom, and the unique perspective of a man who s seen our world from a vantage point few ever will.
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The second was Gordy Ball, the founder of the Conscious Thought Revolution and author of the new best-selling book, The New Millionaire s Playbook, Seven Keys to Unlock Freedom, Purpose, and Abundance.
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And if you liked those previous episodes or today s, we would appreciate you giving it a five-star rating and review.
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They go such a long way in strengthening the passionate community where we can help more people to create an intentional life.
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We and our guests love to hear your feedback.
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Today, I have the privilege of sitting down with an esteemed guest whose work is at the forefront of revolutionizing our understanding of genetics.
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health, and longevity.
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The genes we inherit are indeed the luck of the draw, and for so long it was believed that our genetic blueprint was etched in stone, but today we embark on a journey to challenge that notion.
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While we may not change our height or hair color at will, a realm of unprecedented influence over our genetic destiny has emerged.
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Dr. Lucia Aronica, a lecturer at Stanford University and instructor of the Stanford Genomic Certificate Program,
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has dedicated her career to unraveling the intricate dance between nutrition, genetics, and epigenetics.
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Her research and teaching have illuminated the profound impact of our daily choices on our genes and overall well-being.
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You know how much I love to talk about the power of micro-choices, so this episode is absolutely up my alley.
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With over 15 years of research experience at prestigious institutions worldwide, including Stanford, Oxford, Vienna, and USC, Dr. Aronika s contributions to renowned journals have reshaped the landscape of genetic science.
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Dr. Aronika s wisdom underscores a powerful truth.
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If you aspire to be strong and vital at any age, you possess the means to make it a reality.
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In today s discussion, we embark on a captivating journey into the enchanting world of epigenetics.
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a field that challenges the notion that our genes are immovable pillars.
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Instead, it reveals an astounding truth.
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We wield far more influence over our genetic destiny than we ever imagined.
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Epigenetics invites us to explore how our daily habits, from our dietary choices to our sleep patterns, even our social interactions, can sculpt our genetic blueprint and profoundly transform our health on a cellular level.
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Every decision you make, every lifestyle choice you embrace, can sway the way your genes are expressed, turning them off or on.
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These dynamic changes are what we call epigenetic changes, and they offer you the ability to counter hereditary health concerns and defy the aging process.
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So, I am so excited for you to hear this captivating conversation with Dr. Lucia Aronica.
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as we uncover the secrets of epigenetics and discover how biology can help us lead healthier, fuller lives.
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It s time to unlock the potential within ourselves and rewrite our genetic stories.
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Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life.
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Now, let that journey begin.
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I am so excited today to have Dr. Lucia Aronica on PassionStruck.
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Welcome, Lucia.
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Thank you for having me, John.
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I m excited to meet you and your audience today.
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Well, thank you.
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I m excited for you to be here.
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And one of my favorite countries I ve ever visited has been Italy.
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And as you and I were talking before you came on the show, I ve been there 20 plus times from Sicily, all the way up through Northern Italy and everywhere else.
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And you grew up in Naples.
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Can you tell me a little bit about how growing up in Naples influenced you and the life that you ve led?
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Oh, yes.
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Naples, I m a proud Neapolitan.
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Naples, it s a rough city.
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It s a complex city, just like biology.
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It s a mess.
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But that s why it s so beautiful.
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And it teaches you to navigate complexity, the complexity of life.
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and embrace its beauty.
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It s in Naples where I fall in love with food.
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And in Italy in general, food is very important.
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Not only what we eat, but also how we eat it.
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We also eat it in company, with the family, and we give an important value
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to the preparation of food.
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So something striking that I noticed when I moved to the US is that here people value convenience.
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For example, for many people, it s so cool that you can buy something ready to eat and then just turn on the microwave and it s ready in five minutes.
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To an Italian, that would be so sad.
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An Italian would rather skip the meal rather than doing something like that, eating something in a box that doesn t have all the magic of the preparation behind it and anticipating the food and eating it with people or at least taking the time to eat it properly.
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So this is, I think, something that tells you a lot about how probably Italian people are more resistant
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to the pressure that food manufacturing are making us believe that something that is quick, easy, it s good for us.
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Another related thing that is far more common here than in Italy, actually I ve never seen in Italy, I think I will never see it, is people eating or drinking in the car while they are driving.
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Every time I see it, I think, first, this is dangerous, but second, it s just negating the power of food and taking the time to connect with food.
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Life is all about connections.
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whether these are intentional or not, but we connect with the world around us.
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And food is the ultimate practice of connecting with yourself and your environment around you.
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You do it every day, multiple times a day, and you train this muscle.
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of connecting you with the environment, exchanging pleasure and the cues like learning and being also curious, the food and the flavors.
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your mouth.
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I think this is a striking difference from somebody coming from another country, especially Italy and living here.
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And I consider myself now an hybrid.
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So I m, I have some aspects of an Italian and some of an American and an international person.
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So I think this is fascinating to me.
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I remember when I moved to Spain and I was in my early 20s, how different the supermarkets were there.
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Because as a teen and a young adult, I worked in a lot of supermarkets in the United States and so much of our food, as you mentioned, is ready to make or has tons of preservatives in it.
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And what struck me when I lived in southern Spain was the supermarkets were so small and most of the Spaniards would go every single day to get fresh food.
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Whereas in the States we tend to go and get a week or longer duration of food.
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And just the freshness that you experienced in Spain compared to the way I had grown up was
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just such a revelation to me.
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And it s something, as you mentioned, that I saw all throughout my travels in Italy as well.
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So definitely different cultures and the way that we express ourselves around food.
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But what I wanted to ask is, growing up in Italy, what led you on this journey to ultimately ending up at Stanford University where you re at today?
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It s a long and fascinating journey.
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First of all, I was a nerd at school since my high school times.
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So I loved just learning new things.
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Knowledge was my fuel.
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And during my high school,
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I was passionate about literature, philosophy, Latin, and ancient Greek.
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We were studying all the, in very details, the humanities.
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And when the time came to choose a university path, I decided to change completely just because I m so curious.
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I was like, okay, I ve never ventured really, I never deepened my knowledge in the sciences.
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And at that time, it was the year 2000.
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And the Human Genome Project, the first draft was just completed.
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So there was a lot of excitement around the possibility that knowing the sequence of the human genome would reveal lots of secrets about human biology.
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And I thought, I want to go into this field.
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Also, my father was a doctor, and he died when I was 14.
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And I am the most rational person in the family.
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And I felt I can, I didn t want to become a medical doctor because I didn t want to see people get sick and die.
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The death of my father was a profound event in my life and I didn t want to experience that anymore.
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But I wanted to, in a way, follow his path and do something as a scientist in the medical field to benefit people, but from another lens, without having to deal and see
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sick people every day.
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I decided to start a program in medical biotechnology.
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It was a brand new program in Naples.
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There were only 30 people selected through a test.
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It felt like being in a high school classroom and I was at the university.
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It was a very selective program and most of my classmates at that time are now professors, very famous people, and it was great.
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And then, after my university and master, again, my thirst of knowledge told me, Italy is not enough.
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I don t want to do a doctorate in Italy.
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I want to do a doctorate abroad.
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So I applied for several PhD programs.
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in Europe and I took a year off just to travel through Europe and get interviewed and then I decided to go to Vienna because again they had a position for a PhD in epigenetics and specifically
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in an epigenetic mechanism that was discovered only a few years ago and for which in 2006 the Nobel Prize for Medicine was awarded.
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The name of this epigenetic mechanism is RNA interference and this was my first encounter with epigenetics.
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Since then I ve worked with different epigenetic mechanisms.
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We can then explain
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in more detail what epigenetics is and what these mechanisms are, but then I moved from Vienna to Oxford to do my postdoc in another epigenetic mechanism and then finally here at Stanford where I m studying epigenetics in the context of nutrition and how different diets
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affect this fascinating world of epigenetics.
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Well, thank you for that.
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And the way you and I got interested was from a friend of both of ours, Dr. Kara Fitzgerald.
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And I remember I was so excited to interview Kara about her book, because when it came out, she was explaining a trial that she had done, which was one of its first of its kind, that through natural intervention, she was able to show that she could lower people s biological age.
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And the crux of what she was studying was the impact of epigenetics
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on our lifespan and biological age.
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With that as a backdrop, can you provide an overview of what epigenetics is and why it s so crucial for our understanding of our health and longevity?
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Yes, gladly so.
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The prefix epi means on the top from the Greek language.
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So epigenetics literally means on the top of genetics.
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So if our DNA is our genome,
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then our epigenome is a set of molecular tags of molecules that sit atop our DNA and regulate the expression of genes.
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So whether they are on or off.
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Actually, it s more like a modulation than really an on or off switch.
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And this
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process of gene expression explains why cells and organisms with the same DNA can look different from each other.
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Think of identical twins that with time
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can look different with each other and even develop a different predisposition to disease.
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Or the caterpillar and the butterfly, they look completely different from each other, but they have the same DNA.
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It s just that in the process of becoming a butterfly, there are genes that are turned on and off.
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And even in our body,
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We have 300 types of different cells, and they all have the same DNA.
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How it is possible is because we have the same DNA in every single cell of our body, but each of them has a different epigenome.
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So you can think of the DNA as hardware,
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and the epigenome as software that tells the cell which genes to turn on or off, to activate
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the protein responsible for its function and identity.
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And now, the most fascinating aspect of epigenetics is that, unlike our genes, epigenetic marks are flexible, are dynamically remodeled by lifestyle factors, things like diet,
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environmental toxicant, and even emotion.
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Stress.
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And so these factors collectively are described as the exposome.
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So all the things we are exposed to every day.
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And epigenetics explains these interactions between exposome and genetics.
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And why we know that our genes in general contribute only to
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25% of our response to our complex traits, even chronic diseases in general.
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And I m talking, of course, there are exceptions.
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There are monogenic diseases where you inherit a mutated gene and you have the disease.
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But for most
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traits and genetic variants the environment has a bigger role and the reason is that the environment talks to our genes through epigenetics.
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The link to longevity is that because epigenetics
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measures response to environmental factors, also changes with time.
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And in a way, it measures the passing of time.
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So that recently, in the past 10 years, so-called epigenetic clocks have been developed.
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These are tests
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that we can do with blood samples or saliva samples, and we can measure thousands of epigenetic changes and measure their association with
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so-called biological age.
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We used to think to our age in chronological terms.
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We celebrate our birthdays and that is our chronological age.
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The biological age is
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an idea, a construct that expresses the very intuitive idea that we have that we may look younger or older than our age.
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And this looking younger or older is our biological age.
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So this is an intuitive concept.
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There is really not one single measure.
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We will never be able to measure biological age.
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But there are different ways scientists estimate, read this biological age.
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And one of them
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is by using these epigenetic clocks that measure the passing of time from the perspective of the epigenome.
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So going a little bit deeper into that, I ve taken a number of these tests where supposedly they re able to measure what your typical biological age would be and what mine is.
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And they did it through looking at something called biomarkers.
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And when I was interviewing Mark Hyman, he was telling me that not all biomarkers are the same.
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Can you explain what biomarkers are and how they can help give you some more insight into understanding what s working well for you and where you could put some more emphasis in these choices that you re talking about?
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Yes, actually I would love to also learn more about your experience and which kind of tests did you take because in order to reply to your question I need to understand which kind of epigenetic clock you took because
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There are epigenetic clocks that are really just based on DNA methylation, which is one type of epigenetic modification that is used to build epigenetic clocks because it s the most easy, reliable, and accurate to measure, epigenetic modification to measure.
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So then there are other clocks, probably the one you took,
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where they just measure some biomarkers that can be blood biomarkers, even blood lipids, C-reactive protein, and then they, based on the collection of this biomarker, they output a biological age.
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So these are not really epigenetic clocks, are functional clocks.
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are another way of measuring biological age.
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Remember, I mentioned biological age can be measured in different ways.
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There are three categories.
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So molecular clocks, they include epigenetic clocks, telomere clocks, and now we are looking at proteomic clocks, so molecules.
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Then you have functional clocks.
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where you measure biomarkers, for example, blood lipid panels, but can also be digital clocks that measure your facial aging.
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And then there are also other tests like VO2max, like other functional measurements.
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That s why I need to understand which kind of clock you took.
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And then there are
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In the category of epigenetic clocks, there are different generations of clocks.
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The first generation is just a pure epigenetic measurement of different sites in your genome.
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The second generation estimates the values, the epigenetic
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values of functional biomarkers like for example blood lipids or other protein and then does an epigenetic score of those changes.
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So it s an epigenetic measurement but it s an estimate of those markers and then there are third generation clocks
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where they look at the estimates of the changes in those biomarkers over time so that the clock can measure the pace of aging.
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Not only the age, but the pace of aging, because those estimate the changes in time.
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I know it s complicated.
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I can go over again.
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But it s just to say that your question
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probably needs to be decomposed and in order for me to really answer the question, because things are more complicated than that.
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Yeah.
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Well, I have used two primarily.
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One is InsideTracker, and the way they did their testing is they did a blood sample, a saliva sample, and then had a whole listing of questions, which were all about your lifestyle.
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And then I ve also done Lifespan more recently, which is the company that was started by Dr. Peter Diamantes and Tony Robbins.
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and they did not do the saliva test, but they do a comprehensive blood test, and then they have lifestyle questions that they ask you as well.
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But InsideTracker actually gives you a biological age report.
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Lifespan does not.
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They just tell you
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that across all your biomarkers, and they have some metabolic biomarkers, they have others that are mineral biomarkers, etc.
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They just tell you how much you ve optimized.
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Are you 93 optimized or are you 56% optimized?
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And then they try to tell you what you could do to bring those biomarkers up.
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Yeah, I see.
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So I can t comment specifically on these two because I m not familiar with them, but I can comment in general with the challenge of these clocks that, as you can see, there are so many of them.
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I think there are now over 20 on the market.
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And so as a practitioner, as a doctor or a consumer, I would
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consider including them as a marker just without having the expectation that they will necessarily be precise or really able to guide any personalized protocol.
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I would take it more as because I like to advance the field and understand more and more data.
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So I think this is ideal for people who are excited by the science and want to be part of its advancement.
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But there are several problems.
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So as you can see, there are different companies measure the clocks in different ways first.
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then I think the major problem is that, as I told you, biological age is really a construct.
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So what this means is that I may be, if I take a digital clock, I may be older than my age because I love the sun.
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But because I m exercising and I m eating well, my muscle cells and my liver may be younger than my age.
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We don t have one biological age.
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We have a biological age for every single cell of our body.
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And even these epigenetic clocks, most of them are based on your blood or saliva.
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And we know that
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For example, these changes in blood epigenetics don t track the changes that are seen in brains of Alzheimer s disease patients.
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So the brain, the neurons are epigenetically older, but not the blood.
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What I mean is that, first of all, do not expect that for your condition, a biological test with epigenetics will be precise or will address your problem.
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And I think this is an important aspect.
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I, honestly, I didn t take an epigenetic test.
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It would be nice to.
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I m more interested in functional biomarker tests, but I observed the field.
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It s very interesting.
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And so this is the first expectation.
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The second, very important, is the clinical.
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So if you take this test, are you then able to give a personalized recommendation or to track the progress of an intervention?
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I m not sure.
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Again, it depends.
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The challenge is that
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These clocks have been developed using databases of people that lived in the 50 years ago, so where also the environment was different, and they are
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true at the population level.
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What I mean by that is that if you take 10,000 people and measure their biological age with this clock, clocks will be very precise.
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But if you take one person, could be off very much.
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It s not so they work at the population level, not so much at the individual level.
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And one other thing is that not necessarily being younger epigenetically, we don t know whether this is necessarily a functional improvement.
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For example, we know that calorie restriction makes you younger epigenetically.
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But let s say I measure the epigenetic age of my elderly 82-year-old mom.
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She s a champion of longevity, but she s frail.
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She s frail.
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So if I measure her epigenetic age today, she goes on a calorie-restrictive diet, and then after one month, her epigenetic age is reversed of two years.
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Hooray!
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But then she s more frail, and then she falls the day after, and she dies.
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The point is being epigenetically younger doesn t necessarily mean or is not an indication for a therapy.
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And then one last comment of caution.
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I know that I m saying a lot of bad things.
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At the end I will say good things about epigenetic clocks because I think it s an exciting field.
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But I need to say that because I m very concerned.
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There are lots of studies now
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testing epigenetic clocks in the context of dietary interventions.
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You mentioned the study by Cara Fitzgerald.
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Cara is a colleague and I also read her book and wrote a preface and I had the opportunity to read the study and she used
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a diet that was epigenetically very well designed.
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What I mean by that?
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The diet that Carter Fitzgerald used was a diet based on animal protein as a core.
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and very rich in vegetables and plants.
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And why this is a very good epigenetic design?
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Because we know that the food we eat contains epi-nutrients.
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This is a word that I introduced and Cara is using it and I m very happy, which means there are nutrients that really
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nourish our epigenome.
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And animal protein is the richest source of one category of epinutrients called methyl donor.
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These methyl donors include things like vitamin B of the B group, so folate, 12, 6, and especially we can have only animal protein contains B12.
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And we know this, and we know, for example, vegan need to supplement, but also choline.
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Choline is a semi-essential nutrient.
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We only produce 30% of the choline we need, and we need to get the rest from diet.
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The richest sources are eggs, shellfish, liver.
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And 99% of vegans are deficient.
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And choline is essential for production of acetylcholine in the brain for brain function, and is an epineutrient.
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So annual protein is the foundation of an epigenetically complete diet.
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And then the plants, the veggies,
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provide other epigenetic epinutrient called epibioactives.
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Think of polyphenols in olive oil, in tea, coffee, but also things like curcumin, so spices that modulate the activity of enzymes that write and erase epigenetic modifications of our genes, regulating their function.
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And these epineutrients are very often present in things like medicinal plants.
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And probably they explain why many plants have medicinal properties.
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Now, going back to the diet and the clocks.
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So Cara s diet was an epigenetically very well-designed diet.
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And she showed that after eight weeks of this intervention, the participants were rejuvenated by two years.
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Then there was a criticism to our study saying that after statistically correcting for the test and retest error of the epigenetic clocks, that difference was not significant.
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But then actually that statistical correction itself really fundamentally changes the clock.
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So just to say, it s complicated and you will find lots of people saying everything and the contrary of everything about epigenetic clocks.
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I am now participating in another study at Stanford where we tested genetic clocks in the context of a vegan diet.
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We didn t publish the results yet, but I will emphasize this in the discussion that whatever the outcome will be, we know that a vegan diet is not an epigenetically complete diet.
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So I encourage people not focusing on the results of the latest epigenetic clock study, even if the headline says vegan diet rejuvenate the epigenome,
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Go read the methods, because the reason, first of all, it s a short-term intervention, and then we know that nutrition studies are complicated.
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If you read the fine print, you will understand
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more and the complexity of the studies.
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In this particular study, this is an intervention with people who are overweight and they go on a healthy vegan diet and a healthy omnivore.
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But if you look at the diets, there is a difference.
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The healthier omnivore is eating a lot of grain and starchy vegetables, whereas the vegan diet is eating only the non-starchy vegetables and they are losing weight.
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This is just to say
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I don t want you to be confused by the new science of epigenetic clocks so that you forget about the fundamentals of epigenetics and epinutrient.
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I call this epinutrition.
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So focusing on the biology of epigenetics and the nutrients that build it and don t be distracted by the latest study because you will
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see in the next years, you will find epigenetic clock studies supporting all kinds of diet, carnivore, vegan, plant-based, omnivore, and you will be confused.
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Just because this is the nature of nutrition science.
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Whatever diet you support, go on PubMed, the library of published research on the internet, you will find an article that supports that diet.
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And at the end, you will be confused.
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And it will be the same with epigenetic clocks.
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So don t do that.
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Just focus on biology and biochemistry, and then personalize this to your needs.
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I feel sorry for people because I am
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a scientist and I find this confusing and I can only imagine how it is for people.
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Of course they don t know what to do because every day they hear that this is good for you and or this is bad and so let s go back to basics and then personalize these these protocols for people.
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Lucia, let me take what you just said and ask you a couple following.
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Given your expertise in nutrition and its impacts on epigenetics, when do you think we will all utilize individualized epigenetics in our daily nutritional intake?
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I think we can start from now.
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And I don t mean with a test necessarily.
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For me, individualizing epigenetics can be done right now and in a very easy way.
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So we first start from the universal principles, right?
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That I told you in general, we know that an epigenetically complete diet involves animal foods and plant foods.
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We know how these foods
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nourish our epigenome.
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Then we need to personalize to people preferences and conditions.
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So, for example, somebody who is vegan or vegetarian may need to supplement with the B12 or choline.
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Somebody who has an intestinal problem, IBS,
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and may be sensitive to fiber-rich foods or too much vegetables.
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They may also benefit from supplementation with some of these epibioactives or focus on spices that they can tolerate because even spices like rosemary acid, rosemary, garlic, they deliver a lot of genetic benefits, curcumin.
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And of course there is a personalization to metabolic health which we always forget.
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I think insulin resistance is something that is affecting most of us and we forget to personalize on that our diet.
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So what I mean by that is not very often there is
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lot of bad talking about carbohydrates and I don t think all carbohydrates are bad.
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Carbohydrates are everywhere.
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Of course, I wanted to focus on whole foods, whole food carbohydrates, but then in the context of carbohydrates, there are more high glycemic index carbohydrates like
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fruit and then low glycemic index carbohydrates, like things that grow above ground, like for example, greenish vegetables, Brussels sprouts, broccoli, they re very low in glycemic index and carbohydrates, five grams every 100 gram.
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You can eat huge portions of those foods, get a lot of nutrients.
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Very few calories and carbohydrates.
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That could be a great choice for people with insulin resistance.
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So an epinutrition plan that is personalized could, for example, say, OK, there are some fruits that are rich in epinutrients, but because you have high insulin resistance, focus on broccoli, which are really an epigenetic superstar.
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And these are only some.
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things to consider.
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There is also the ultimate epinutrition personalized protocol, which is a ketogenic diet or even fasting.
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Because when we are on a ketogenic diet or fast, and sometimes we need to do it for therapeutic reasons, either diabetes or there are even brain disorders, we produce
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ketone bodies and one of these is beta-hydroxybutyrate.
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Well, we know that this is an epimetabolite, so a metabolite with epigenetic function that regulates genes that are responsible to turn off inflammation in the body and regulate pathways.
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So this is an example actually of an epinutrition intervention in which we
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by manipulating the macronutrient composition of our diet, we stimulate the production in our body of epigenetic molecules that benefit our health.
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So the concept is this.
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These are all examples of
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epigenetic protocols for different peoples, but the basics are universal.
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So we start from the basics and then we personalize based on tests that we have already now.
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My concern about these cutting-edge tests is that they are very interesting, but they are less precise at the individual level and they should never be considered alone.
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and not in the context of other functional biomarkers.
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Well, I just got a constant glucose monitoring system from Levels that I can t wait to try when I get back from an upcoming trip and start going down that path of seeing what that insulin and glucose mix on a daily level for me.
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Yeah, I m excited about that.
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I know you ve done a lot of studying of, and I ll mention this because you are from a Mediterranean-based country, keto diet versus the Mediterranean diet.
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Can you share any insights from that?
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Oh yes, okay.
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I will start by saying that when you read the headlines, always ask yourself, what is the keto diet or the Mediterranean diet that was tested in the study?
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Because, no, it s interesting.
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I made this comment when we were designing the study.
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The Mediterranean diet that we tested was a healthy Mediterranean diet.
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You know what?
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No refined grains.
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So I was born in Naples.
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I was eating pasta, bread every day.
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And then the study tells me that the Mediterranean diet is a diet with no refined grains.
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So the point is, if you read the headlines and they say, I m Mediterranean diet is good for you, and then you think of your Mediterranean diet, you may think, OK, then I go eat pasta and bread.
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But actually,
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They tested their own version of Mediterranean diet.
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Our study tested a diet that was no pasta, no refined grains, no bread, and was already a very low carb diet, very healthy.
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version of a Mediterranean diet and compare that to a ketogenic diet.
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Again, it was a very well-designed ketogenic diet with less than 30 grams of carbohydrate per day, but it was a diet where, for example, was more heavy on meat and dairy,
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than fish and olive oil.
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This is just to say that there are very different ways of doing a ketogenic diet.
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There is not, many people think that is always meat and butter, but it s not necessarily like that.
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I am on a low carb and maybe even keto, I don t know because I don t count my, but I am more fish and olive oil and that s, you can do a keto Mediterranean.
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By the way, the study was,
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designed to compare these diets for pre-diabetic and type 2 diabetic patients and compare their outcomes on glycated hemoglobin, which is a standard marker for diagnosis of diabetes, but also CGM, so continuous glucose monitoring, what you are now trying.
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And so you will be excited to know
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that both diets were really improved, glycated hemoglobin.
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There was not a significant difference between the diet.
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But take into account that also the Mediterranean
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that was very low in carbohydrate.
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Again, it was not a Mediterranean diet, you think.
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But we also found that the CGM data were significantly better for the keto group.
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So again, and this is confirming what we have seen also in other trial from, you may be familiar with the Virta Health study, and it s now a multi-year study.
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I think now they are now in the fifth year, but I m familiar with the results published after two years.
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This was an intervention using a ketogenic diet for diabetic patients.
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showing that all the markers were improved and most importantly, most people were taken off medications.
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So basically, it s the diet, going on a keto diet,
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can allow diabetic patients to go off medication.
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And this is really a food as medicine approach.
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It s about giving people options.
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I don t want to say everybody should be on a ketogenic diet, but I think the ketogenic diet is probably the prescription strength approach for diabetic patients.
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And I think that some people may not need or want to go to a prescription strength.
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But if the alternative is taking a medication, then at least they have the options.
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I think that s where education is important.
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Say, look, going on a keto diet as a diabetic could allow you to get rid of medications.
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We have not seen this with studies.
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We made a renin diet or more milder with higher carbohydrate.
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intake and I think it makes sense from again a biochemistry perspective because a ketogenic diet really switches, allows our body to switch from using glucose to fat as a fuel and stabilizes glucose.
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Well, I did want to ask you about one other thing.
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I had the opportunity to interview Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, who has a new book coming out, and she s known for being an expert on proteins.
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And you ve talked a lot about the needs for good intake of proteins to support epigenetics.
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But another area she is also passionate about is muscle mass and the importance of doing strength training for longevity.
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Have you done any research in that area?
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I didn t do any research but as you can see I am strong and I practice strength training regularly and I ve learned a lot by engaging in strength training.
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Actually I started my strength training journey together with my doctorate.
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So I, and that s where I experimented with the ketogenic diet at the beginning, just as a part of a performance program, because the ketogenic diet actually was popular in the 80s among bodybuilders who wanted to define, to go at defining the muscles after a bulking phase.
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So I tried that.
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There were times in my life where I reached 10% fat.
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and I was strong and I still train but now I don t cycle, I m just on the same diet because I think I prefer to focus on health rather than performance.
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But just to go back to your question, so I don t have any research but I have personal experience and I read a lot about the topic.
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Our muscles are really an organ that produces cytokines, hormones, molecules, and it s not only a structural component, it really transforms the way we metabolize and use food.
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And that s why personalization is so important.
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Even carbohydrates have a completely different effect on somebody who has a lot of muscles because the muscle is really a sugar sink.
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It really claims sugar from your blood, especially after training.
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So I usually have my higher carbohydrate vegetables
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like pumpkin, and sometimes if I want to bulk up even sweet potatoes after training, whereas I go with lower choices before training.
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Because after training, we have this phenomenon of non-insulin mediated glucose uptake, which is a kind of magic.
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Why?
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Because usually we need insulin to claim glucose in our cells.
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So we eat.
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insulin goes up and tells your cells, take glucose from the blood.
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But after training, we don t need it.
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It s our muscles that said, give it to me, give it to me.
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I need it because I burned my glycogen stores.
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This is just magic if you think about it.
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So if you eat that glucose after training, it goes to your muscles.
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Now many bodybuilders, for these reasons,
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The reason I used to eat dextrose tablets just after training, I wouldn t do that just because for me, I think it s so much better than to focus on nutrition.
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I have some healthy carbohydrates, but the point is, yes, muscle is important.
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Also for longevity reasons, I hired a trainer for my mom, 82 years old, and I tell you this,
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Not only she is stronger, she can work alone, but she has so much more energy.
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And I notice that she just thinks more clearly and better.
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And she s had a transformation after starting weight training.
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And we know that there is even this muscle-brain connection.
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And it s not only about movement.
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It s also about thinking and feeling.
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And so I believe that exercise, although I m an advocate of diet, exercise is very important and protein is very important, not only from an epigenetic standpoint, but also for muscle growth.
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I think it s a very much neglected nutrient.
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There is a lot of controversy on this topic, but I think a high protein diet, especially a diet that contains some protein in each meal,
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is very important.
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It s not only about how much protein per day, per kilo.
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Yes, these are quantities just to give us a guideline, but how much protein per meal, because we don t have any place to store protein.
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We have a place to store fat, adipose tissue, and glucose, glycogen, not protein.
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So that s why
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We should also always be eating protein, some protein, probably 30 to 40 grams every meal.
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Well, thank you for that, Lucia.
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And I understand you ve got an upcoming course that some of the listeners may be interested in hearing about.
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Ah, yes.
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So thank you for mentioning that.
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Yes, I ve been teaching epigenetics for many years at Stanford.
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I am proud to have introduced for the first time epigenetics in the Stanford Genomics Certificate.
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This is a professional program.
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So I decided to update those teachings and distill them in five modules for all the nutrition science enthusiasts out there.
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and make it accessible.
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So, you can find the course at draronica.com and use a coupon code PASSION50 for a 50% discount.
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Well, thank you Lucia for sharing that and thank you so much for joining us today.
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It was such an interesting deep dive, especially into the nutrition behind epigenetics.
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Thank you very much, John, for having me.
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I hope your audience enjoyed our conversation and be inspired and use food and exercise as medicine.
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I thoroughly enjoyed that interview with Dr. Lucia Ronica, and I wanted to thank Lucia and Dr. Kara Fitzgerald for having her appear on today s show.
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Links to all things Lucia will be in the show notes.
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Please use our website links.
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If you purchase any of the books from the guests that we feature here on the show, all proceeds go to supporting the show.
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You can catch our videos on YouTube at both my main channel at John R. Miles, as well as our Clips channel at PassionStruckClips.
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You can also sign up for my work-related newsletter, Work Intentionally on LinkedIn.
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You can catch me on all the social channels at John R. Miles, or you can also pre-purchase my brand new book, Passion Struck, on the website or wherever you purchase books.
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You re about to hear a preview of the Passion Struck podcast interview that I did with Dr. Richard Ryan, a clinical psychologist and co-founder and co-developer of the Self-Determination Theory, an internationally recognized leading theory on motivation.
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Dr. Ryan lectures frequently in the U.S.
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and abroad and was one of the most cited researchers in the world on both psychological and behavioral functioning.
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We are going to explore in depth the topic of self-determination theory.
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In that episode, we do a deep dive on the connections of many things that I talk about on Passion Struck and self-determination theory.
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One of my best interviews yet.
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Recent research in neuropsychology has really been showing that we do have a set of internally rewarding experiences that are behind a lot of our activities.
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When people are doing something benevolent, when they re doing kind things for other people, they re also feeling striatal activation.
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They re showing activation in the reward centers of their brain because something satisfying has occurred for them.
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I think in this way, it s very much supported the general tenets of self-determination theory.
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Remember that we rise by lifting others, so share this show with those that you love and care about.
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If you find someone who s interested in understanding epigenetics, then definitely share this show with those that you love and care about.
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In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so that you can live what you listen.
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Now, go out there and become passion stronger.