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Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert.
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I m Dan Rather and I m joined by Mrs. Mouse.
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Hi.
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Hello.
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Today we have, what a unique guest.
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We don t interview a lot of neuroscientists who are in a neuroscientist punk band.
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I think only the one.
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I think this is our first.
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Charan Ranganath, who is a professor at UC Davis in Cognitive Neuroscience, where he leads the Dynamic Memory Lab.
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So Charan is one of the foremost experts in the world about memory.
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We re all obsessed with memory, I think.
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We are.
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Obsessed slash concerned.
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I think generally when people are talking about their memory, they re worried.
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Well, because we know and he says in here, you know, basically not if you have dementia, you essentially you re losing 20 percent.
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Yeah.
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We interviewed him and then I went and brought the girls up to set and then we went to Goldberger and we ate outside and then we got home that night and I was thinking about this episode and then I was thinking like, oh yeah, I can picture when we were in front of Goldberger and there was three tables and the middle table was three people eating and I can see them.
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And how fucking weird is that that your brain can do that?
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There s probably something that was novel about it that made you remember it, though.
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What a mystery.
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That happened, but yet I can look at it right now.
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It s just so weird.
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It s very cool.
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Anyways, his new book is out now.
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It s called Why We Remember, Unlocking Memory s Power to Hold On to What Manners.
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So that s what s great about this.
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It s not just an explanation of how memory works, but, you know, some prescriptive ideas on how to remember what you want to and be thoughtful and mindful about it.
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So it was very cool.
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Please enjoy Charan Ranganath.
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He s an Armchair Expert.
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Neuroscience And then this is my actual banner I played original music it was a shoegaze fan that genre is called shoegaze Yeah, what does that mean you look down at your shoes while you re performing?
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Well, you have like a whole bunch of effects pedals, like fuzz boxes and wahs.
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And so for people who do that, because there s just like all sorts of sound effects and things.
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And so people will often just look like, where am I going to put this?
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Do you need to use the restroom or anything before we start?
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You do?
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Oh, yeah, yeah, let s do that.
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We don t have a door, so we step out.
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Yes, we re going to do a quick step out.
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Alright, you can come in.
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I m just sitting there waiting.
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protective nature to take over.
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No, that s not fair.
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She cares more about animals than I do.
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I know, but it s your dog.
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You can be a boss.
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You can say, hey, do you think you could take Whiskey to the vet?
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He keeps crying all day.
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My sister works for the family.
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She s wonderful.
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She s incredible.
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But because she s my little sister, I really can t ask her to do anything, you know?
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Yeah.
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We re on year 10 of this.
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It s like my daughter, I wanted to pay her to edit my book and just do like copy editing.
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She s just like, hell no.
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I m like, I can deduct it from my taxes.
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You don t understand.
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No, no, no, no, no.
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It s actually kind of funny.
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Cause we were talking about my daughter.
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After finishing my book, I came to terms with the fact that I have ADHD.
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And when I say this, I mean, my teacher said it when I was a kid, my school.
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And so it might ve been diagnosed, but it was the seventies.
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So nobody gave a shit.
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Sure.
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And how skilled were these diagnosers?
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I don t know.
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Let s just think it was the seventies because like what would they have done?
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Give me speed, maybe.
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I don t even know if Ritalin was a thing yet.
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So they basically told my parents that I have bad hand-eye coordination and that I had ADHD.
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Is that even a symptom of ADHD?
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Don t know.
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Actually, I think it is.
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It kind of makes sense that it would be, because it s a focus.
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The brain s working too fast to slow it down to operate the hands?
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Well, it s definitely affecting me now, because I fell off a skateboard a few weeks ago, broke my arms.
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Oh no.
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And did you have surgery?
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I had surgery, yes.
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You busted the humerus?
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Yeah.
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And did you have to get a rod?
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Broke it in half.
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Clean break.
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Clean break, yeah.
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Fuck.
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Were you on a ramp?
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No, I wish!
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It was the most unsexy, like... 13 feet above the coping?
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What was going on?
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The most, like, incompetent thing.
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I could basically say bad shoes, bad pavement, long work day.
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Were you using the skateboard at that time for transportation?
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Yeah.
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Interesting.
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Just to get a little bit of adrenaline after work.
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There s supposed to be a small amount, a safe amount.
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Yeah.
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Wow.
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That has got to be a very painful break.
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Oh, I went into shock afterwards.
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I bet.
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Was that the second biggest bone in your body?
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Behind, I think, the femur?
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Yeah, maybe like this thing?
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I have pretty long arms and long legs.
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I don t know which one it is.
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Yeah.
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And so how many days out of surgery?
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It s about two weeks.
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I had the stitches removed yesterday.
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And how does it feel?
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It s sore, but I m off of painkillers.
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I didn t stay in painkillers for that long.
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And I ve got mobility thanks to the plate.
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That s a big scar.
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It would be badass were it not for the scary strips, you know?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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I was going to say, I need your advice on getting a good tattoo because I want to get something that would maybe either complement the badass scar or cover it.
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I m going to go another direction.
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That in itself is its own tattoo.
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So if you want a tattoo, get it on the other arm and keep that on display.
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I kind of agree.
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I think it ll look cool.
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Yeah, what s my company I want to start with, Charlie?
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Scars and Veins.
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Scars and Veins.
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Speaking of ADHD, if I get back to what I was telling you in the story.
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After I finished my book, my daughter started saying, dad, you totally have ADHD.
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I m like, oh, you re going to say this about everybody.
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And I all of a sudden remembered this thing that just had been buried in my mind that my mom put me on a special diet with no artificial colors and flavors and they bought me an Atari and that was what they could do.
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So then I started seeing a coach and talking more to my daughter about it.
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And so she was like saying one thing that I guess people with ADHD do is body doubling.
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which is this thing where you find someone around you to help you focus and get motivated.
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And so for me, I realized whether it s music or whether it s science, I need to have people around me to feel energized.
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You look like David Bowie and he managed to be creative throughout so many years because he surrounded himself with these amazing people.
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And of course he s brilliant.
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I m not brilliant, but it s like I ve surrounded myself with all these amazing people and it just keeps me going.
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How does that differ from just being an extrovert and getting energy from social interaction?
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It differs in the sense that I could be very easily a blob, but with people, I feel accountability and with people, I get ideas.
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Sometimes it s even just if I m writing in a cafe, having people around, somehow it makes things flow better.
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I m not really linear in my thinking about things.
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My children are in elementary school, and of course, many of the kids now have diagnoses.
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So they give the kids with ADHD fidget toys, spinners.
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That seems to help a lot.
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I wonder if you need a certain level of distraction.
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I think everybody does.
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The key is giving people controlled distraction.
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I don t want to say anything about people saying they have ADHD now, because I don t know about it.
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But I will say that we live in a time where people s habits create a real difficulty in focusing.
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Because when I got my iPhone for the first time, I remember all of a sudden feeling like any time there s nothing happening, I have to check email.
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Sure, sure, sure.
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Pause in the conversation, I gotta check email.
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And for someone like me, this is really hard.
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But everybody does this.
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And I talk about this in the book.
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At that moment, when you think about checking email, you ve already lost the ball.
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So just to get back to this conversation,
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I have to now shift back and reset.
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And there s a little bit of a switch cost there.
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If you actually scan people s brains, you know, in the prefrontal cortex, there ll be a little blip of activity and it takes about maybe 30 seconds to get back on track.
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And so people will go, Oh, I m multitasking.
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I ll be at conferences.
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I ll do this too.
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People will be checking email and responding to things while an academic is giving a deep scientific talk.
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Yeah.
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That best case you will be hanging on by a thread to understand with full focus.
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Exactly.
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Then what happens is people leave and go, Oh yeah, I knew all that, but they weren t really paying attention.
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Well, you say in the book too, that act of emailing the phone, even grabbing a camera to take a picture, it takes you out of the moment in this way that impacts how you create a memory.
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Absolutely.
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First of all, we don t see the entire world.
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Our brain is always economizing.
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You might feel like you re seeing everything here, but really your eyes have just moved around a little bit and you re using memory to fill in.
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So there s a very limited amount of information that you can actually apprehend at a given moment.
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Things can grab your attention or it can be a goal-focused attention.
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And one of the things that we found in our research is that actually memory encoding, the little birth of a memory, doesn t happen continuously like a movie.
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It tends to happen more at these points where we shift gears or we re surprised or something new is going on.
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And that s what we would call an event boundary.
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And at these event boundaries, you re kind of switching, let s say, between the conversation and, oh, I got this interesting text message.
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Let me go back to DAX now, right?
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And so what happens is when you switch, you get these little fragmented memories because I ve got a little bit of low quality, meaning I haven t integrated across a long period of time to get a deep sense of what we re talking about, right?
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So I got a little bit.
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And every time I switch, I m behind schedule.
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So I m cognitively trying to catch up.
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People who study task switching, they ve got a whole vocabulary of switch costs and mixing costs.
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There s this cost, it s bad.
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And so what happens is I m behind schedule, I m trying to catch up, and I ve got a lot of fragments of memories.
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And so then later on, I try to remember it.
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And what do I remember?
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Well, I remember coming in and having a conversation, but I don t remember what I talked about.
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I don t remember what you re wearing.
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any of the details that give me that sense of mental time travel, the details that give me the sense of I can recollect this.
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And so for me right now, I m on because I want to remember this experience.
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I m in one of my zones of hyper focus right now.
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That process you just described, doesn t that nullify the entire point of a memory?
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When we think about how a memory serves us evolutionarily or how it helps us exist, which is it helps us understand the present and potentially predict the future.
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And so if the memory you re drawing on, like, oh right, I was in a room like this talking to another person, but it was like, I was on 15 different text messages, there s really nothing to glean from that memory.
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Wouldn t help you understand the present and or predict what s coming next.
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Well, this is where there s some really interesting filtration that happens in the brain.
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So there s a lot of work in molecular neuroscience about plasticity.
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We think that there s actual changes in the connections between neurons, the basic computational unit of the brain, and that s what allows us to learn.
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Because if I can reactivate some sequence of neural activity that is similar to what s happening here, I can have a conscious re-experience of that.
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But the key to that is being able to grease the wheels so that that sequence of neural activity can be reopened again.
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So you change the connections between neurons to make that happen.
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And so when you do that, these changes in the connections between neurons can be very transient.
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But it s like you got a bunch of neurons that are co-active and they re firing, especially when there s moments of surprise.
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But what s really cool is there are certain chemicals in the brain like dopamine, noradrenaline, cortisol, serotonin.
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I think you are probably really familiar with these terms and many people are nowadays.
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especially now that there s so many psychiatric drugs that are involved treating these things.
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And so these are called neuromodulators.
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They don t just cause neurons to fire willy-nilly.
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They actually focus your attention, but they also stabilize those changes in the connections between neurons.
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So when you look at what drives these neural responses that result in dopamine release or noradrenaline release or cortisol, serotonin, there are things like surprise, novelty, attachment, fear, disgust,
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Things that are evolutionarily more relevant.
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They d all be under the umbrella of survival.
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Yeah.
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Novelty is exciting because it could mean a new food source.
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It could mean a dangerous predator.
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We don t know what it is.
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And it would be very important for us to assess what that is quick.
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That s the beautiful thing, because if I m seeing something that s similar enough to what I already know, I already have the memory for it before it even happened.
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So why would I tweak all of these neural connections just to get this one little bit?
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It s more or less the same.
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It s like you re not going to release any of that that s familiar because you don t need to.
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Unless it s familiar.
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But at the same time, I get a reward out of it or there s a knife being pulled.
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Even if it s familiar, it s like, oh, it s that familiar.
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But is this why marriages over time get less exciting?
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Oh, I mean, there s something there.
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You re not creating the same level of dopamine in a long time relationship because it s like there s no need to.
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I feel like this is a fact with anything in life.
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So I want to say, first of all, just to my wife that
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It s only getting stronger.
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Is it as exciting as it was in the first two weeks?
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This is well known.
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You re trading here and now chemicals for dopamine chemicals.
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You are losing a big bit of your chemical excitement, but you re gaining different chemicals, the here and now chemicals.
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attachment, actually, serotonin, all these other ones that you hear about, oxytocin.
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So what I would say, though, is you do need to kind of find the novelty.
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And I talk about curiosity.
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It s something that you can cultivate.
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But we, based on our research, suggest that it s associated with a release of dopamine or activity in dopamine producing areas in the brain.
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And it produces this state in the brain where you can actually build memories, even for things that you weren t curious about.
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And I especially love the fact that when I listened to your show, it s so infused with the joy of curiosity because that really is what keeps you going.
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It s a matter of kind of finding new things, reinventing yourself.
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I have a colleague who I talked to and I said, what s the most exciting thing you re working on right now?
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Cause that s what I want to know about.
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If you re excited about it, I think I will be too.
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And he said, yeah, nothing s really new.
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Everybody s redoing the same things over and over again.
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I feel like I have to keep reinventing myself so I don t become that person.
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Is there a physiological component to that?
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Do we decline in the ways that we decline every way of having less dopamine, of having less go explore, go find?
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We must be battling some physiological imperative in this.
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I think we do.
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I don t like talking about it as decline.
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And the reason I don t is there are factors that happen as we get older.
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Of course, our ability to remember details, our proactive ability to control information, it does go down on average over time.
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But I also feel like humans live way beyond reproductive years.
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Yeah, it s a very confusing species to study because in some cases, 65% of our life, reproducing is not relevant.
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Yeah.
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In my field, the narrative has often been, you have this period of time as a kid where your episodic memory, your memory for events is not very good and it s kind of random.
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And then you become a young adult and everything s great.
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and then you pass 30 and you start to decline.
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Episodic memory goes down.
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And it got me thinking about this idea of life stages.
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When you re an older person, you have still preserved semantic memory, which is your knowledge about the world.
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It s basically your wisdom.
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And if you look in most cultures throughout human history, older people are the source of the wisdom.
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And they re often teaching the children, they re passing on the traditions, the language.
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It s not about you.
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It s about this broader community.
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And one of the things I found fascinating in looking at this stuff is if you look at other species that live past menopause, they tend to have this intense social culture like orcas.
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And orcas are led by post-menopausal females.
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Whoa.
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And they re the ones that pass on the tradition of saying, hey, I want you to kill this great white shark and just grab its liver or something.
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And they re teaching all of these cultural traditions.
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At least that s my understanding.
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I did go down a little rabbit hole of curiosity for this when I wrote the book.
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Orcas are so fascinating, it s crazy.
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We could do three hours on it.
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I think they are the only ones that have a larger neocortex body mass index than humans.
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Is that right?
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I think so.
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I learned that at one point in college.
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Oh, wow.
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That s been debunked.
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Okay, but I ve been meaning to go back for 12 minutes now.
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Sorry, I m going on.
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No, no, no.
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Can we start with what are the mechanics of a memory?
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How did they actually exist in our brain?
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Is it a recipe of chemicals?
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Is it a series of switches turned on and off?
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Are we making any physical impression on any material like a record?
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Like what are the mechanistic properties of a memory?
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Do we even know?
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We know a lot, but there s a lot of arguments.
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So the standard view is what s called synaptic plasticity.
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So imagine you have a neuron.
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There s a little gap between them called a synapse.
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And so imagine you have a big web of these neurons that are connected to each other.
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So one neuron is active, meaning that there s these little pulses of electrical activity called spikes.
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When a spike happens, you get a release of chemicals.
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Usually it s glutamate is the big one.
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And that s an excitatory transmitter, meaning it can excite other neurons start firing.
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So what happens is there s little receptors for these chemicals on the other side, on the neurons on the receiving end.
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So the synapse is where one neuron can influence other neurons.
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When
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there are more receptors, a neuron can be more likely to be activated by another neuron.
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So the standard synaptic plasticity about this would be in the long term, you re getting more receptors that happen through learning through these genes that express themselves.
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As an aside, people often talk about nature and nurture, and I find this thing to be so tedious because for learning to take place in almost any theory, gene expression has to happen.
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I don t know if you read Behave.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, I love Sapolsky.
1
SPEAKER_01
What I loved most about his book was this is such an erroneous division.
1
SPEAKER_01
There is no division between nature and nurture.
1
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It is one thing happening at all times.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it s all connected.
1
SPEAKER_02
By definition, learning is based on your experience, but genes regulate that learning.
1
SPEAKER_02
My colleague friend, Sam Gershman, has shown that you can get learning in single-celled organisms.
1
SPEAKER_02
So they don t have neurons, they don t even have synapses.
1
SPEAKER_02
So there s another idea, which is learning can actually be encoded in DNA.
1
SPEAKER_02
David Glansman at UCLA actually has done some work on this too.
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SPEAKER_00
That club is kind of smaller than the synaptic plasticity club.
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SPEAKER_00
I wish I knew more about this.
2
SPEAKER_00
I just need more time to read, to be honest.
2
SPEAKER_00
But there s all this parts of our DNA that are called junk DNA that s not thought to be encoding any gene.
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SPEAKER_00
And I think one of the ideas is, is that the junk DNA can be passed back and forth between cells.
2
SPEAKER_00
You should probably fact check that.
2
SPEAKER_00
I ll write an email after this and just make sure please cut this out.
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SPEAKER_00
But that s an idea.
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SPEAKER_00
There s also an idea about what s called dendritic spines, which is just more synapses that can be created.
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SPEAKER_00
But the simplest version of this is that you re changing the efficiency by which one neuron can activate another neuron.
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SPEAKER_00
Collectively now, there s an assembly of cells that we d like to activate when we get a particular memory.
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SPEAKER_00
So that s the cell assembly theory, that there s not one neuron that is the memory, but a bunch of them.
2
SPEAKER_01
Is it the combination that produces a new thing?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s right.
2
SPEAKER_00
But it s also overlapping.
2
SPEAKER_00
So there s an ecosystem of memories with overlapping cell assemblies that are supporting these memories.
2
SPEAKER_00
So there is this kind of infiniteness to it, but at the same time you re constantly recombining and reshuffling elements of other cell assemblies.
2
SPEAKER_01
And is that all with the goal of efficiency?
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SPEAKER_00
It s super efficient.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you think about it, chat GPT has sort of a photographic memory.
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SPEAKER_00
Think of the carbon footprint.
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SPEAKER_00
I don t even think they disclose this information.
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SPEAKER_00
And it s like estimates of the human brain is 12 to 20 watts.
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SPEAKER_00
Super efficient.
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SPEAKER_00
So you don t get that by just encoding everything over and over and over again.
2
SPEAKER_00
You use, you reuse.
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SPEAKER_00
And one of the arguments that we ve made in some of our computational models is that you actually don t even just
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connect everything from every neuron that s active at the same time, you just tweak the synapses that are the most important.
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SPEAKER_00
You make the important ones stronger and you make the less important ones.
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SPEAKER_00
So you have a part of the cell assembly that s not carrying its weight, some willy-nilly neuron.
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SPEAKER_00
You just shut down that part of the cell assembly.
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SPEAKER_01
this process of prioritizing in that moment.
2
SPEAKER_01
So your brain sees something and it s got a million different options to draw on, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
And then now it s making some high probability prediction.
2
SPEAKER_01
We re unconscious of that, right?
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SPEAKER_01
I don t know that I ve experienced that selection process where we re trying to find the right memory or the most useful comp.
2
SPEAKER_01
So what governs that process?
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SPEAKER_00
This is, again, one of those things that you could debate, but the general idea would be is that there s inhibitory neurons that are keeping the peace, basically, because if you don t have enough inhibitory activity, you just get seizures.
2
SPEAKER_00
I get seizures.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, my God.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so we should talk about this.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I m curious.
2
SPEAKER_00
I d be very interested in knowing about your memory experiences from this.
2
SPEAKER_00
We should talk Deja Vu, too.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, we were just talking about Deja Vu.
2
SPEAKER_00
We just talked Deja Vu the other day.
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SPEAKER_00
I feel like you ve talked about this before.
2
SPEAKER_00
I find Deja Vu scary.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
She s afraid she s going to get trapped.
2
SPEAKER_00
Let s come back to that.
2
SPEAKER_00
So what happens is there s only so many neurons in a network that are going to be active at a given time because you have this competition that s being mediated by the inhibitory neurons.
2
SPEAKER_00
I hope I m not losing many of your listeners, but basically the idea is-
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SPEAKER_00
go, who cares?
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so basically it s like you have these neurons and they re kind of in this cage match of, I want to be activated, I want to be activated.
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SPEAKER_00
And those are the principal cells that would be thought to carry the information of a memory.
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SPEAKER_00
And then there s these interneurons saying, well, this one s a little bit more active than this, so I m going to shut down this weaker one.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so that s what creates this thing where one memory can pop up, at least in a computer simulation, one memory can pop up and the others get squashed.
2
SPEAKER_01
Something evaluates the relevancy of the one that popped up.
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SPEAKER_00
You do have some control over searching for the right memory.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so this is where you jump from this level of the neurons to brain regions.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so an area that I ve really been fascinated with is called the prefrontal cortex.
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Basically, it s about one third of our neocortex.
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SPEAKER_01
And the newest part of our brain.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, if you look at, for instance, dogs and cats, they have a very small prefrontal cortex, primates big, humans really big.
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SPEAKER_00
And so it allows us to say, hey, here s my goal, but it s going to happen about five minutes from now.
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SPEAKER_00
Let me shut down the neurons that are not relevant and activate the ones that are based on what I need to get done.
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SPEAKER_00
But it s not in front of me.
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SPEAKER_00
It s an idea.
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SPEAKER_01
You can create a model of the future in your head.
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SPEAKER_00
And it s based on a goal.
2
SPEAKER_00
So somebody who has no prefrontal cortex can be very abstract.
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SPEAKER_00
They can have an understanding of the world, but they don t use.
2
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
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SPEAKER_00
They don t use that information.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like this deficit in being able to use what they know.
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SPEAKER_00
And so you can see this.
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SPEAKER_00
I think this is really relevant in addiction because I think people don t get the nature of addiction.
2
SPEAKER_00
And part of it is that you know what you don t want to do and what you want to do.
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SPEAKER_00
and that s a high-level knowledge, but there s often a disconnect between that and action.
2
SPEAKER_00
And especially depending on the dynamics of what s happening in the brain, you can actually kind of lead to a shutdown of these frontal functions that would say, here s what I really want in the future, but your brain s also trying to say, hey, I got something in front of me.
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SPEAKER_00
I don t need to plan for the future.
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SPEAKER_01
My explanation of addiction also is that when the amygdala is firing, it has a priority.
2
SPEAKER_01
It can hijack everything else that s happening, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
If the amygdala fires,
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SPEAKER_01
in a manner, it will shut down your executive function in the prefrontal cortex.
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SPEAKER_01
You re going to be reacting much more out of instinct and other things.
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SPEAKER_01
So, if the amygdala is driving the boat, or another area of the brain, the hippocampus or whatever, you actually can t even access that prefrontal cortex.
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SPEAKER_01
I mean, that s my explanation of it, right?
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SPEAKER_01
Like I said, once you re in that reward cycle and dopamine deficit, the part of your brain that s driving can t access the part that s thinking about tomorrow in long-term goals.
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SPEAKER_00
Is that flawed?
2
SPEAKER_00
No, I don t think it s flawed, but maybe I ll offer some careful context to this.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I want to be careful not to be the neuroscience guy to say, hey, this is addiction.
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SPEAKER_00
It s your amygdala taking over.
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SPEAKER_00
I think sometimes you could just put labels on these things without really getting into the nuances.
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SPEAKER_00
But there s actually an interesting interplay between the prefrontal cortex, which is, again, using goals, the amygdala, and the hippocampus, which is important for saying this event happened in this particular context, this place and time.
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SPEAKER_00
And so there s actually ways in which the hippocampus and amygdala can teach the prefrontal cortex and say, hey, look, this is relevant in this context.
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SPEAKER_00
Here s where I get the reward in this context, or here s a threat, let me avoid this.
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SPEAKER_00
And so in fact, sometimes what happens, you can see this a lot in fear conditioning research.
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SPEAKER_00
So imagine you have a phobia, let s say, of rats, right?
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SPEAKER_00
So you see rats and you just freak out, you get into amygdala, big threat response, you have a big phobic reaction.
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SPEAKER_00
Now what happens is I m doing therapy with you.
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SPEAKER_00
You habituate to now you ve got the rat right in front of you, right?
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SPEAKER_00
And you re actually calm.
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SPEAKER_00
Now you go out on the street and you see a rat and you freak out again.
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SPEAKER_00
So what s happening is when you re actually getting used to the rat, you re not actually unlearning the fear association.
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SPEAKER_00
You re learning to suppress the fear association.
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SPEAKER_00
And so the hippocampus, the prefrontal cortex, and the amygdala are thought to be working together to say, in this context, it s safe.
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SPEAKER_00
It s okay here, but when you go out there, it s different.
2
SPEAKER_00
You never know.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so I talk about in the books how context is such a driver of addictive behavior in some cases.
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SPEAKER_00
There s a whole model of this in the animal literature called conditioned place preference is one of those things where you can give an animal a drug in a particular part in a room.
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SPEAKER_00
And then the animal starts hanging out in that part of the room.
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SPEAKER_00
And so it s thought to be that what happens is the context now all of a sudden brings up this whole mindset of I got to get this drug.
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SPEAKER_00
I used to see this when I did my clinical training, which is that I had patients who were really motivated.
2
SPEAKER_00
They wanted to be off drugs and they were doing great.
2
SPEAKER_00
I had one guy, we worked for like months together, Vietnam vet, and he just got everything together off of crack, off of alcohol.
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SPEAKER_00
in a really difficult situation, but he lived in a house where his brother was dealing drugs.
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SPEAKER_00
So if you can t get out of that context, you re with the same people, you re in the same places.
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SPEAKER_00
Maybe this resonates with you as someone in recovery, but I feel like you have to change the context because those are reminders.
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SPEAKER_00
They activate- Oh, I m going to go deeper than that.
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SPEAKER_01
The person that s witnessing what we would say is a trigger, which is a context thing, it s not just that they re observing it.
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SPEAKER_01
The body starts releasing dopamine.
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SPEAKER_01
You start actually getting a bit high from the trigger.
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SPEAKER_01
It s not just, oh, this is my memory.
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SPEAKER_01
Your brain chemistry changes.
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SPEAKER_01
You get that dopamine anticipation of novelties around the corner, so you re already a little bit high.
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SPEAKER_01
Now, once you re a little bit high, we all know how addicts make decisions once they re a little bit high.
2
SPEAKER_01
They want to stay all the way high.
2
SPEAKER_01
But I m curious, have they ever hooked up?
2
SPEAKER_01
Certainly they have.
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SPEAKER_01
Put someone in an fMRI who was smoking crack?
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SPEAKER_01
Is the prefrontal cortex even online?
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SPEAKER_01
Do we have brain imagery of people?
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SPEAKER_01
I mean, I m talking about an addict three days later.
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SPEAKER_01
I m talking about someone currently smoking crack.
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SPEAKER_01
I would hope not.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, they probably couldn t do that.
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SPEAKER_00
But they do studies of people, for instance, looking at drug cues.
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SPEAKER_00
So people who are suffering from addictions who look at drug cues, a picture of a crack pipe.
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SPEAKER_00
And that s enough to activate the dopaminergic circuitry of the brain.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now, I cannot say for sure.
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SPEAKER_00
Dopaminergic.
2
SPEAKER_01
I read dopamine nation and the other one.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that word I find to be the hardest word to pronounce.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, well, you know, we re mean Jeddick.
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SPEAKER_01
It s so hard.
2
SPEAKER_01
Dopaminergic.
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SPEAKER_01
Dopaminergic.
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SPEAKER_01
Just think like a pirate.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s not unethical.
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SPEAKER_01
The dude s already smoking crack anyway.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, a lot
3
SPEAKER_00
A lot of people would say it is.
3
SPEAKER_00
I think for alcohol, a little less unethical.
3
SPEAKER_00
If you did a brain scan of someone who is maybe not full addict, but someone who struggled with alcohol.
3
SPEAKER_01
Have we looked at people s fMRIs when they re intoxicated, like drunk?
3
SPEAKER_02
Somebody must ve done that.
3
SPEAKER_02
So let me get back to context.
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SPEAKER_02
This is relevant to your question.
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SPEAKER_02
A lot of memory studies have been done where you give people drugs or you give people alcohol.
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SPEAKER_02
This was done in the seventies.
3
SPEAKER_02
Now it s harder to do this kind of research, but they would give people things like barbiturates, LSD.
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SPEAKER_02
They would give people weed, half a bottle of vodka, you name it.
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SPEAKER_02
I mean, some serious hardcore stuff sometimes.
3
SPEAKER_02
And one of the weird things that they would find is if you learn something in that state,
3
SPEAKER_02
you would find it easier to remember it when you re in that state again.
3
SPEAKER_02
There s a particular context, but it s a mental context.
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SPEAKER_02
It s a state of mind.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s a feeling that you have.
3
SPEAKER_02
And so what happens is your prefrontal cortex, I would argue, you re activating a mental context, a frame of mind that says, okay, in this context, here s my goals.
3
SPEAKER_02
And that s part of what activates this window of memories.
3
SPEAKER_02
And so I d argue it s not just addicts.
3
SPEAKER_02
You know, I can be like, I want to be in a diet and I go into a pizza place and all of a sudden my prefrontal cortex, my whole brain is basically in this context.
3
SPEAKER_02
Here s the reward that I get.
3
SPEAKER_02
There s a whole thing called the empathy gap where people have.
3
SPEAKER_02
this inability to empathize with their future self.
3
SPEAKER_02
I heard this beautiful interview on the Hidden Brain podcast with this woman who, when she was younger, she was raised in this family where they re like, you can have sex, but just take birth control.
3
SPEAKER_02
And then she gets with this one guy who s like, I m not going to use, you know, a condom or whatever.
3
SPEAKER_02
And she just doesn t.
3
SPEAKER_02
In the heat of the moment, she does not.
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SPEAKER_02
And the thing is, is that she couldn t anticipate what the feeling would be like and how the state of mind changes.
3
SPEAKER_02
So we tend to think of the prefrontal cortex as being my logical Mr. Spock saying, don t do this.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s really about saying, here s my goals in this context and here s what I want to do.
3
SPEAKER_02
But as I was saying, it s a competition.
3
SPEAKER_02
If I ve really reinforced a particular goal, which is getting drugs, you don t need much to activate biologically relevant goals, like avoiding threats, getting rewards, which drugs hijack the reward system or getting
3
SPEAKER_02
sex, sex, drugs, rock and roll, you know, you don t need much of a learning mechanism for that.
3
SPEAKER_02
And that s going to produce this competition that suppresses these more distant kinds of things where it s like, well, I might get something down the road out of this, but look what I got right now.
3
SPEAKER_00
Stay tuned for more armchair expert.
3
SPEAKER_00
If you dare.
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, back to the context memory.
3
SPEAKER_01
This reminds me of hearing that people who study using Adderall in college, the mistake they make is that they don t then do Adderall for the test because weirdly they would remember better because they memorize all this stuff in this Adderall state and they would be better at retrieving it also in the Adderall state.
3
SPEAKER_02
Well, it s even worse too, because unless you ve really mastered the material, being in this high arousal state, especially if you ve got high cortisol release too, it can actually hurt your retrieval of information because you re in this high arousal.
3
SPEAKER_02
So if you were taking Adderall, that can produce a problem too, because now you re too wired.
3
SPEAKER_02
Actually, that kind of shuts down the prefrontal cortex.
3
SPEAKER_02
So it s kind of damned if you do, damned if you don t, because it is context dependent.
3
SPEAKER_02
But at the same time, if you re too jacked up, you can t remember anything.
3
SPEAKER_02
And so there s kind of this optimal level.
3
SPEAKER_01
Back to the question of the mechanics of a memory, is it electrical or chemical?
3
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_01
So part of it is ions, right?
3
SPEAKER_02
And so these ions move and that s producing these voltage changes.
3
SPEAKER_02
But the chemical part is at the synapse.
3
SPEAKER_02
The electrical part is within the cell.
3
SPEAKER_02
And what we record when I record an EEG or do intracranial recordings of people with epilepsy, we re actually recording electrical activity that s reflecting these large scale movements of gobs and gobs of neurons exchanging neurotransmitters.
3
SPEAKER_02
We re seeing these big field potentials.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s like a broadcast almost of neural activity.
3
SPEAKER_02
activity.
3
SPEAKER_01
What do most people have wrong about memory?
3
SPEAKER_02
I would say that we re supposed to remember everything and that memory is about a replay of the past.
3
SPEAKER_02
Neither of those are true.
3
SPEAKER_02
Anyone who s been studying most of the details of their experience will be forgotten.
3
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
3
SPEAKER_01
So a, our memory is not nearly as good as we think it should be.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then what was the second part?
3
SPEAKER_02
Oh, that it should be a literal replay.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh, right.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like you re watching a recording of it.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s right.
3
SPEAKER_01
What is our capacity?
3
SPEAKER_01
as humans, memory-wise, relative to A, other species, and then B, machines?
3
SPEAKER_01
I love this question.
3
SPEAKER_02
What I would say, first of all, is I try to avoid good and bad memory.
3
SPEAKER_02
Because again, the implication is somehow if I m hoarding a bunch of my memories, that s good, right?
3
SPEAKER_02
But it s not necessarily good.
3
SPEAKER_02
You want to be more selective.
3
SPEAKER_02
I come in here, I could go like, Dax, Monica, what are you doing?
3
SPEAKER_02
You have all this empty space.
3
SPEAKER_02
Why aren t you just putting a bunch of stuff in here, right?
3
SPEAKER_02
And it s like, you re probably asking yourself, there s probably a little bit too much there.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t think anyone would suggest there s not enough stuff in there.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think you ve got plates in the bathroom or something like that.
3
SPEAKER_01
This is the proverbial 80 pounds of shit in a 10 pound bag, this attic.
3
SPEAKER_02
But nonetheless, you ve got all this open space.
3
SPEAKER_02
Why not whore it, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
Right, right.
3
SPEAKER_02
And of course that s the wrong answer.
3
SPEAKER_02
We know that the frontal cortex is very well developed in humans and because of language and because of just in general, the long developmental period of the neocortex where it s like, it s just taking years and years to make
3
SPEAKER_02
The way humans remember is going to be very different.
3
SPEAKER_02
We re going to be very conceptually driven.
3
SPEAKER_02
We re going to be very goal focused, much more.
3
SPEAKER_02
We re going to have a longer timeline on which we can remember.
3
SPEAKER_02
So that s humans.
3
SPEAKER_02
But one of the things about machines, which I just love, is people will go, OK, well, you know, it s chat GPT.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s so smart.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s really not in the sense that we have semantic memory, which is very much like chat GPT.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s basically getting the average in this context.
3
SPEAKER_02
Here s what I can expect.
3
SPEAKER_02
or here s my knowledge about Los Angeles.
3
SPEAKER_02
I know in Highland Park, Villa s Tacos is this great place to go to, but that s different than remembering, oh my God, this is a blue corn tortilla that was handmade and tasting it and time traveling to that big event.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s semantic versus episodic.
3
SPEAKER_01
Those are our two options in memories.
3
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
3
SPEAKER_01
So semantic is like dates, times, places, geography, all those things, the concrete.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_02
So let s say I went to that same place and now there s a different taco stand and I get food poisoning from it.
3
SPEAKER_02
Maybe not food poisoning because there s a different kind of learning.
3
SPEAKER_02
Let s just say I had a bad taco.
3
SPEAKER_02
So now I m going to have to use episodic memory to say, hey, I don t want to go back to that place again because they ve changed this taco stand.
3
SPEAKER_02
But chat GPT is going to take forever to learn this because it already learned that this is a good place to go to.
3
SPEAKER_02
And so it doesn t have that episodic memory that can allow it to stop on a dime and flip.
3
SPEAKER_02
And so what episodic memory allows us to do is to learn the rules, but also to learn the exceptions to the rules.
3
SPEAKER_02
And that s what makes humans so uniquely intelligent.
3
SPEAKER_02
Now, sometimes we overfit to that and we say, hey, I remember hearing a story about this murder that happened in Los Feliz.
3
SPEAKER_02
And so Los Feliz must be a sketchy neighborhood.
3
SPEAKER_02
Sometimes we overfit to that and we create these weird kinds of things in our head that aren t true.
3
SPEAKER_02
But on average, it gives us a particular kind of intelligence that machines don t have right now.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I was recently reading A Brief History of Intelligence, which is a great book, and it was talking about the breakthroughs with AI competing in both chess and Go.
3
SPEAKER_01
And what they had to do is completely change how they were
3
SPEAKER_01
deploying that computer because originally they thought, well, shit, this computer has the power to actually model out every single move and tell specifically what is the highest probability of success.
3
SPEAKER_01
But it said, in fact, there s more potential moves in a chess game than there are atoms in the universe.
3
SPEAKER_01
which is almost incomprehensible.
3
SPEAKER_01
And in fact, no computer can actually model out every single move.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then it had to teach it to do what human brains already do, which is go to this really quick, thin slicing, high probabilistic way.
3
SPEAKER_01
So then it had to basically tone it down, like just look at 10,000, then see what pattern emerges for that.
3
SPEAKER_01
And this is like all stuff the brain just already does naturally.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then you gotta get like fascinated all over again with what this thing can do.
3
SPEAKER_02
They use deep reinforcement learning for a lot of the stuff.
3
SPEAKER_02
My friend Demis Hassabis at DeepMind has done a lot of cool stuff.
3
SPEAKER_02
Part of the reason why AlphaGo beat the best Go player is because it was doing something a little different than the Go players were doing.
3
SPEAKER_02
Otherwise it would have a lot of trouble.
3
SPEAKER_02
So it is doing something a little different, but you re right that you can t get everything.
3
SPEAKER_02
And so you have to analyze the problem from a lot of ways.
3
SPEAKER_02
One of the cool things about episodic memory is that you have a lived experience.
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Maybe you just saw this game once by some people on the street playing chess in New York, and you can uniquely go into that lived experience that happened from you going into the world.
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You had a roommate who was doing something and that influenced you in some way.
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Chess is a bad example of this.
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I like to think of it more in creativity and imagination that you have these unique lived experiences
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that Dali does not have or these other generative AI things don t have.
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And that s what allows you, you re playing a part on a play and you can channel this one person who lived in your dorm floor when you re at UCLA and bring that
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And that is the beauty of episodic memory that just injects it into problem-solving, creativity, and gives us this uniqueness that makes you different from me.
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Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
Sorry, I have a really quick question, because you were talking about hoarding.
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There was a Revisionist History episode once about hoarders and how strong their memory is.
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Do you know about this?
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Oh.
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Like, the reason they re hoarders is actually connected to memory, that they have, like, a very big capacity for memory.
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There s some links to this.
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So there s a thing called highly superior autobiographical memory that was studied by researchers at UC Irvine and now in other places.
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And so Mary Lou Henner... They over index on OCD as well.
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That s right.
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They can just remember some detail from like 10 years ago.
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Yeah, what was the weather like Tuesday, March 5th?
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Yeah.
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And then their closet is insanely organized.
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But that s the opposite of hoarding.
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OCD sometimes manifests in hoarding, too.
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You can also see in certain realms of the autism spectrum, there s a thing called memory savants.
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This is the original Rain Man in Utah.
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That s one example.
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Yeah.
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And there s people like Stephen Wiltshire who can, like, go in a helicopter over a city and then paint this incredibly detailed, almost photorealistic painting of it, right?
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And so there s kind of this overlap with OCD related symptoms there that have to do with these kind of obsessions and sometimes anxiety and control.
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What s happening with their memories that isn t happening in ours?
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We don t know about how different people are.
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Ours, I don t even know what ours means, right?
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It s just such a fascinating topic.
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But I can t paint a city after looking at, you know, I don t have that ability.
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Just in general, you have an area of expertise.
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Let s say you re looking at different things than somebody who s not an expert.
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And so you can subdivide the world in so many beautiful ways.
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And so as a result, your memory for the stuff that you re an expert in will be amazing.
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Chess experts can remember entire matches.
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Think about again, how many pieces are on a board, how many infinite possibilities of moves they have.
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A chess grandmaster can remember an entire game.
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Now you look at someone like LeBron James and you look at LeBron s ability to call back entire sequences of events in basketball games and you look at YouTube videos, it s just phenomenal.
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Another fun one is they put headphones on these Formula One drivers and they play 20 seconds of the engine noise and they ll go, that s Imola turn six and seven.
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Wow.
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They know what the engine sounds like on every track in every turn.
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And they have every track memorized to that detail.
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Half shift up.
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Okay, that s the hill going up.
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Spa.
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What s even more insane is they see that pattern happening in real time.
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They also make them drive the course blindfolded and they drive the course perfectly.
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That s who we should study.
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That s what we got to get in.
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You should.
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They can not only see what s happening now, but they re seeing into the future.
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They re like five steps ahead.
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And that s this beauty of this expertise that it gives you, is not only being able to memorize, but really able to project into the future and have this just unbelievable sequences that unfold in your head.
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Is it also helpful to them that because the experience is quite heightened,
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with adrenaline and every other great neurotransmitter.
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Does our memory record better in those situations?
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Yeah, it records a little bit.
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In neuroscience, people will often say better.
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I would say slightly differently.
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If you imagine like a TV, right, you turn up the brightness on the TV, everything just gets brighter.
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And that would be like the equivalent of saying, well, memory is just getting stronger.
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But really emotional arousal ratchets up the contrast.
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So the things that are the most important, salient, emotionally relevant get jacked up and everything else kind of stays the same.
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So that emotional arousal will definitely heighten whatever is most surprising, whatever s most urgent.
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And the other stuff kind of goes in the background.
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Okay.
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This is incredible.
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This is seven years in the making.
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I ve had this theory forever.
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I ve launched it on a couple of people that we ve had in that were neuroscientists, but I ve never had the perfect guest to ask this.
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Okay.
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So really quick, perfunctory knowledge.
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Do you know how slow motion works in cameras in film and television?
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I will say no because I probably would think I do, but I don t.
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Okay.
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So the camera s normally taking a picture 24 frames per second.
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And when you want to create slow motion in a movie, you actually record at a hundred frames per second, but then you play it back at 24 frames per second.
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And that creates this illusion of slow motion.
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So my explanation for why everyone who thinks the car accident they were in was like three minutes long is that
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In that super heightened state, you are so aroused, you take in so much more data, more smells, more sounds, more everything.
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Your brain is hardwired to run at 24 frames a second, but you ve basically compacted about four minutes worth of data into this sliver of time so that when you re going through your memory, there s all this data you re going through, which makes it feel like it was slow motion.
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SPEAKER_02
Huh, that s interesting.
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SPEAKER_01
Now this negates the whole watching back a video premise.
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the world.
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Yeah.
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And so it s a lot like what you re talking about, which is that essentially you re getting more frames per second.
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And so as a result, I can imagine that gives you a different sense of time.
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I just feel like we play it back at the same frame rate no matter what, because that s how we play back memories.
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But we probably are not playing it in the sense of playing a recording.
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Right.
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We re still getting bits and pieces.
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Ah, okay, here.
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SPEAKER_00
But there s too much stuff there.
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SPEAKER_00
I get it, I get it, I get it.
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SPEAKER_00
This is total speculation.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I love it.
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Probably some time researcher is going to call it and say, oh, Dax, this is completely wrong.
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But I think what may be happening is that you ve got a lot of this information and now you get little bits and pieces of that information when you re trying to remember it and you re assembling it into a story.
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You got lots of bits and pieces, more than normal, and you re assembling a longer story out of it.
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And at the same time, you ve got some of the physiology and it s making your heart race, but it s taking you a long time to reconstruct this emotionally relevant memory because you got so much to say.
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Yeah, you gotta go through all these pieces, and then I saw the seatbelt, and then I saw the airbag.
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There s just so much stuff.
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And so you are imagining it in slow motion.
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Right.
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And that is what memory is.
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It s imagining how the past could have been.
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Okay, great, because that s one of my questions.
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So explain the relationship between imagination and memory.
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I feel like this will be disheartening for some people.
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I think it should be heartening for people because it s so cool, right?
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So remember saying this idea of why encode something into memory if you already have it?
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Why encode something in a memory?
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Evolutionarily, why would you use space for it if it s already there?
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That s right.
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Think of how many times you ve probably gone through airport security, how many times you ve gone to get a coffee at Starbucks and you probably walk out and have no memory of anything other than the fact that you went there.
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There s this general economy that we have in the brain.
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of just grabbing the most important or novel stuff.
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So as a result, what happens is you get those bits and pieces from memory.
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And that s a little bit of data that you have.
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You get some context.
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But then what we do is we fill in the blanks with our knowledge about what happens.
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If you remember the last time you got a cup of coffee, I can remember it because I was just at a coffee place before I came here.
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When I do this, I m using a lot of my general knowledge about what happens at a coffee place.
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I don t have to form an entirely new memory of, oh my God, I gave a credit card and I tapped it on a machine because I knew that stuff already.
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I know it had to have happened.
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And so we do that in memory and we do it very quickly and very efficiently.
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We have these knowledge structures called schemas for different kinds of events.
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And so you can think of it as you go to a housing tract, right?
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So I grew up in San Jose where it s like one out of every three houses look alike.
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Yeah, yeah.
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The floor plans the same generally.
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But every house has a different paint color, maybe carpeting versus flooring wallpaper.
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So they all have this different surface, but they have a similar structure.
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And that s how I think events work.
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So you have this structure of the schema, which is knowledge about events.
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But then you have this episodic memory, which gives you some color for the paint and the carpeting and all this little decoration that you have on it.
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So once you have all that, the structure is what allows you to just unfold it into a story.
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That s the human readable part that you can translate.
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And so that s the connective tissue of a memory is the knowledge that you build a model out of, you build a narrative or a story out of it.
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And that s imagination.
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And that s something that you do even when you navigate in space.
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So if I ask you, okay, I came from coffee bean and tea
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If you re going to go back there, you can simulate that path that you have based on your knowledge.
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And so you might be thinking, well, I m remembering where it is, but you re really inferring a lot of those gaps because there s a whole block that you don t need to simulate yourself walking along the entire block.
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You ve got that block in your head and you know it s one segment.
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So when we remember, we get little bits and pieces, and then we use imagination to make it meaningful, to build a story out of it.
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And what that means is sometimes we imagine it wrong.
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Sometimes there are bits and pieces that we didn t catch, or we imagine it from a particular perspective.
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This didn t happen, but I look now at a relationship.
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relationship that I had in the past, and I know how badly it ended.
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Well, actually, I can think of a musical relationship where this happened.
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I know how badly it ended.
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And now when I remember all of these experiences, I m now all of a sudden remembering, oh, yeah, I remember this person would just talk really negatively about their friends.
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And that comes into my stories about my experience in this band, because that s how I m imagining this person talked about me.
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And so these beliefs
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that we have in the present are being used to fill in the blanks and fill in our imagination.
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And so that s why I say memory is so much about the present, because who we are now, that s the lens through which we re searching through and reconstructing these memories.
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SPEAKER_00
Then, of course, it really begs the question, and I think a lot of people are often questioning this about themselves, which is how much of it is real?
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SPEAKER_00
Or, one thing I like, you gave this example of, there was this study where they had people read the description of a house, and they asked one group to read it from the perspective of a home buyer, and then they quizzed them about different details, and they had a specific set of details that was consistent, and then they had another group read it as robbers, and then they had to recall the details of the story.
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And then what s really interesting, so at first it proves like, oh, you pick up different things if your perspective s different.
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But then they asked them to flip into the other perspective.
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And now all of a sudden they remember details that they didn t previously with the other perspective.
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The details were there, but they weren t accessible through this specific perspective.
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That s right.
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SPEAKER_00
It s deeply troubling, right?
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It shows this is like polarization at its core.
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Like we re seeing stuff through a very specific perspective.
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If only we could switch, we would pick up on details we aren t picking up on.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, people don t have that as a modus operandi and they should.
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SPEAKER_00
I know, it is troubling.
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SPEAKER_00
But back to, and you talk about it in the book, our memories are really responsible for our sense of identity.
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And as you say, our identity is on shifting sand, quicksand, something like that, which is fascinating.
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And it s a little bit scary because you don t know which you should trust.
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I mean, I guess there s some freedom in that, which is at any time you could probably use your imagination to recall these memories in a different way and find new inspiration.
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But at the same time, it is scary.
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As someone who s writing a memoir, I m really conscious of this.
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I ll call my brother.
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This couldn t have been a more traumatic event.
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We were both there.
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And he s like, no, we weren t even in that house.
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We don t even agree on the house.
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That s substantial.
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It scares me to think how subjective these memories are.
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They are subjective and it s what I really want people to take away because there s a lot of work on errors in memory and there s no question in any scientist s mind who thinks reasonably about the stuff that memory is literal and photographically accurate.
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It s just not.
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But that doesn t mean it s all mush.
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And this is really important because there s a lot of work that s being done in the forensic field about ways in which eyewitnesses can have their memories corrupted.
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But that doesn t mean everyone who s been sexually assaulted is just making it up from their memories.
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So it s a very real and dangerous perspective to just say memory is completely made up because it s not.
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And most of the important stuff we do get.
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I like to say memory is like a painting.
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It s not like a photograph.
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So you have that painting over there of both of you.
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And it s like this painting captures some elements of who you are.
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You can see there s a context there.
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There s features of you that are moderately accurate.
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And then there s some stuff that s clearly inaccurate.
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And there s some stuff that s neither accurate nor inaccurate in the scheme of things.
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It s just the perspective.
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And that s what memory is all about.
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And like a painting, you go back to those old Renaissance paintings where they didn t have enough money for canvas.
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So they just reuse stuff.
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You can go back to that painting and you can change it and it go, Oh, next now is a beard.
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Let me put a longer beard on him.
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And that s what we do with memory too, is we revisit and we repaint those creations in our head.
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Now that doesn t mean there s no data there.
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So as a scientist, I also like to say memory is data and we have theories that we use to explain that data.
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And the problem comes when we confuse the theories with the data.
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The data is the sensory details that really bring us back to this place in time.
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The thoughts, the imagined stuff.
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The conclusion.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
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The lesson.
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The judgment.
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The theme.
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That stuff is the theory.
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SPEAKER_00
How does the mood we are in affect the memory we retrieve in that state?
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So when we are in a particular mood, that s part of our mindset and that s part of the context.
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It s part of the lens through which we re searching for memory.
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You have this particular kind of filter that you re using when you re searching for information and memory.
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You find the stuff that happened when you were in a sad mood, you tend to find the negative stuff.
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And so what I used to find in my work in the clinic was that this is one of the reasons why depression was so hard to pull out of because what happens when you re feeling negative, something bad has happened to you.
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You pull up more negative memories.
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SPEAKER_00
Listen to sadder music.
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Yeah.
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Then you pull up negative memories, you feel worse and then you pull up more.
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And so it turns out to be this kind of filter for your memories when you are in a particular mood.
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SPEAKER_00
This also gives a little bit of a scientific backing for the power of positive thinking, I d imagine, too.
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SPEAKER_00
It makes it a little less, you know, woo-woo.
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SPEAKER_00
That s the word I m looking for.
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah, well, actually, the funny thing is, on average, people who are not depressed have a positive bias in memory.
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SPEAKER_02
They tend to remember more positive events from the past, and they tend to reconstruct the event more positively than it really happened.
5
SPEAKER_02
Oh, really?
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And as we get older, people tend to get more of an optimism bias.
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On average, again, everybody s different.
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That s a blessing.
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SPEAKER_02
That s exactly your question.
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SPEAKER_02
It is.
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SPEAKER_00
It really is.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
Okay, how are memories different from the feelings we have about them?
5
SPEAKER_02
The feelings that we have, these emotions, are related to survival system or the parts of our brain that help us respond to stress or threats in the environment, uncertainty, novelty.
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And so those will give us a pattern of activation in our brain and also peripheral nervous system changes that interact with our brain.
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People go, oh, well, trauma s in the body, but the brain s a body part.
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SPEAKER_00
One of these other erroneous, compartmentalized ways of looking at things.
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Those feelings are part of the memory.
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But the thing is, is that our memory for the context and the details can be split apart from those feelings that give us the vividness of memory.
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So if you look at people who don t have an amygdala, they don t get that emotional arousal with memories.
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They don t have an effect of emotional arousal and memory in the same way that somebody does.
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SPEAKER_02
But they can often remember a lot of the details of an event.
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And somebody without a hippocampus might still have that emotional arousal, but not remember the details.
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And what we ve found in some of our MRI research and others have found this too, is that when you give people emotionally arousing things to remember, people will report that as being more vivid when they remember it later on, like a picture of a car crash.
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SPEAKER_02
But they don t remember any more details than for something like a picture of a mom holding a baby.
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SPEAKER_00
So it feels more vivid, but it s not in fact more vivid.
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SPEAKER_02
Exactly.
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So when you get activation of both the peripheral nervous system, but also kind of the survival systems that are kind of making you feel aroused, that becomes part of this immediacy that you get.
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But that is dissociable.
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And the reason why I say this is because you can change the way that you frame an event and that
5
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knowledge is separate from that feeling that you get.
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Sometimes the feeling people get will give people a sense that this is exactly how it happened.
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SPEAKER_02
And that is not the same as your actual understanding of what happened and the details of what happened.
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
I suffer from this.
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SPEAKER_00
I really trust my memory and conclusion.
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SPEAKER_00
But it is interesting.
5
SPEAKER_00
I guess the way I could find purchase in a lot of these things that you re talking about in the book is, let s say, two months after I broke up with Bree, my girlfriend of nine years.
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SPEAKER_00
If I had to tell you why we broke up, I would select all these memories that confirmed it was entirely her fault.
5
SPEAKER_00
And over time, and with some growth and some recognition of my own character defects and failings, when I look back and review it now, I weirdly see way more of the stuff I did.
5
SPEAKER_00
My overall perception of the breakup has altered as I ve gained new knowledge.
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SPEAKER_00
And I guess that s a way in which it s potentially good and healthy.
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SPEAKER_00
In a weird way, it feels wrong to update memories.
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SPEAKER_00
In theory, that s what happened.
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SPEAKER_00
They shouldn t be reinterpreted or rewritten.
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SPEAKER_00
But if the only purpose of the memory is to serve you in the present and in your future, then of course that s what should happen.
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SPEAKER_02
That s exactly right.
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SPEAKER_02
Let s say 20 years from now, we get together for a beer.
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SPEAKER_02
You would probably look at me and you d go like, okay, well, he s aged so much or not a beer, sorry.
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SPEAKER_02
Coffee or something like that.
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SPEAKER_00
I knew that was going to stumble you up.
5
SPEAKER_00
Rob, can you edit this out?
5
SPEAKER_00
It s like, I just like- Let s get together for some lines.
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SPEAKER_02
Okay.
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SPEAKER_02
Okay.
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SPEAKER_02
Sorry.
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SPEAKER_02
Okay.
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SPEAKER_02
I just am so horrified.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s been 20 years, don t even worry.
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SPEAKER_00
Please kill me.
5
SPEAKER_00
People always, it s so funny.
5
SPEAKER_00
Someone will go like, oh, we did that.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, oh my God, I m so sorry.
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, some people it would bother.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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No, I mean, I used to work.
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in the alcohol treatment program at the VA.
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Well, he has a NA beer.
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So you guys could, there it is right there.
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We could bang back some Ted Seegers.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Let s do it.
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I will do it.
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Okay.
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I ll wear your band shirt and you drink my beer.
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Symbiotic.
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So let s say we get together for non-alcoholic beers.
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Then another year later it goes by and you see me
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You d probably go like, Oh, he s way older than I remember.
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Now, if you updated your memory perfectly, I wouldn t be that much older because it would only be a year since the last time you saw me.
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So if you updated your memory, ideally, then you would actually have less of a sense of, Hey, something s new here, but we don t update our
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memories enough sometimes.
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And so that s why we have this experience of relatives that we haven t seen in a while.
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But really quickly, that seems like a function of prioritizing which impression is more important.
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Because if I were to now permanently make my image of you at 62, it feels more relevant that I remember my initial for my survival.
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I can see why the brain prioritizes the initial and cements the initial
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summation of you, because we re evaluating whether you re good or bad for us, or safe, or you re a threat.
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And so, I don t know, it feels like, why wouldn t my image of you be at 62 if that s what you are?
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Why do we hold on to these earlier images we form of people?
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The strategy is to split the difference.
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There s a thing in machine learning called overfitting, where if you have some thing that you re trying to learn and you learn too much about it, it actually is bad because you can t generalize in a good way.
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So there s a general strategy that you want to have where you want to learn just enough.
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I mean, imagine if I just got this perfect memory of you right now, and the next time I see you, if you shaved, and I d be like, I have no idea who this guy is.
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Right.
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The nose looks familiar.
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Exactly.
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You know, it s like, oh, that tattoo.
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I ve seen that somewhere before.
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So you don t want to overfit like that.
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And so I think that the brain is updating, but it s not updating completely.
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And then there s also all sorts of interesting, weird things where sometimes you just form a new memory of remembering.
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And so there s separate memories, but it s like, I m remembering that time.
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I remember that time.
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Okay, so that s great.
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That brings me to now, this is not in your book, but this is something that has plagued me like the car accident time shift.
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I have on numerous occasions, which generally I m at my mom s house, I m flipping through a photo album and I believe I have a memory of standing on my porch at four years old in this house we lived in.
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And I can see it perfectly and I know it s my memory.
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And I m flipping through the pages and I go, oh my God, that s the exact image I have in my mind.
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And then I have to admit to myself, I don t think I actually have a memory of that time.
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I have a memory of this photo.
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And I have come to realize so much of my memory is really my memory of these photographs.
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What s happening there?
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Well, so, and I get this, by the way, from people who go, I remember when I was like six months old.
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And it s like, the data says that you do not remember when you were six months old, but you might remember seeing pictures of yourself and hearing stories about when you were six months old.
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And then the imagination kicks in.
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You just lose the ability to tell the difference in things that you thought about or seeing a picture and things that actually happened because they re all just mental experiences when you just activate a memory.
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And so in your head, thinking about something and remembering something are not all that different.
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But getting back to your question about why is it that it doesn t feel like you have that sense of mental time travel, you don t feel like you re going back in time, it s just sort of like something you read about.
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What happens, at least in our computer models of the brain, is that when we recall a memory, we re recalling it in a new context.
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And so the hippocampus might be saying, time travel back to this particular time and place.
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But then you have this disconnect between the thing that you re pulling up and the context you re in now.
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And so what happens is you tweak the memory so that it s less tied to that place in time.
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Now what happens is the keeper calling this thing over and over and it s not locked into this hyper specific place in time.
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It s not overfitted to a contact.
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So it s easier to pull up.
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You pull up now the edited version you last made.
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That s right.
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And it becomes more general and more flexible, more accessible.
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But at the same time, it doesn t give you that sense of traveling back.
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It s not like you didn t even realize you had this memory.
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And then all of a sudden you go back to your childhood school and boom, it pops into your head.
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Again, this isn t in your book or on my questions, but now you ve said this and it made me think of this.
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What is your overall belief in like hypnosis and being able to actually go back in a way that you normally couldn t consciously?
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I think that hypnosis is problematic because hypnosis is a very deep state of relaxation from what I understand.
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And the problem with hypnosis is basically you re turning off the prefrontal resources, the executive functions that you need to monitor the accuracy of your memory.
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So we can be accurate, but it takes time and it takes a little bit of executive function.
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So we tend to remember things badly when we re stressed out or tired, not getting enough sleep, kind of like I am now.
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Except for this, I m super hyped now.
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Good mental plays right now.
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But those are the times that we tend to struggle.
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So hypnosis kind of is also taking those executive functions out of the picture.
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And the difference between imagination and memory kind of goes out the window at that point.
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And you start to think about things that could have happened and you re getting suggestions and being asked to say, well, you know, remember some other time this happened.
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Maybe could this have happened?
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And it seems plausible because you re not able to counteract these suggestions and you re being encouraged to elaborate on them.
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And those then can also become edited memories that you would recall as if they were the same as any other.
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Theoretically, you can form, I mean, well, it s happened, that you can form a new memory.
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About something 30 years ago.
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About something that never happened.
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A false memory.
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Right, right, right.
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But in theory, yeah, it happened at eight years old.
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But it s just an assembled set of bits of like, I saw this movie, I recalled this family interaction, you just put it all together into some crazy thing.
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And people who are more susceptible to hypnosis are more likely to do this.
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When you re in a hypnotic state, does it prevent you from doing the thing you just described, which is you can t go back to that place in time, so you adjust that memory to fit into your current context.
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Under a state of hypnosis, would you perhaps just plop back into the old memory without that ability to update it?
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and make it fit your current context?
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That s a really good question.
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We don t know.
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I have to say I don t know.
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This is something I like to say a lot is I don t know or we don t know.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Because it s like you don t hear a scientist say that enough.
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No, it s good.
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That s like a big part of the science.
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But what I would say is you can pull up a lot of context, but then free associate and glom together a bunch of stuff that becomes associated.
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And so I think, yeah, you might end up creating something that s so new, you create this memory of imagining or this memory of
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remembering and imagining that s separate from the original event.
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Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.
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The brain is good at delineating between memories of dreams.
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Like I find it s kind of shockingly good.
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It s only once in a while where I go.
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No, sometimes I am like, did I dream that?
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Yeah, sometimes.
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Occasionally I m like, I don t know if I dreamt this or this happened.
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But again, once every two months that happens to me.
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And you re creating...
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a story every single night that s super detailed and really you re not confused for the most part.
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It s so bizarre that it s kind of hard to make it real.
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You know that it s fake because you flew or I had one the other day where there was a moving photograph.
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You can hopefully.
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discern the difference.
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Yeah.
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This is something I think about a lot.
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So there s all sorts of interesting work being done on dreams right now in memory.
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And one of the things that people are finding is that dreams aren t just associated with REM sleep.
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They re associated with other phases of sleep.
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And there may be dreams throughout a night of sleep.
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And dreaming s a big part of how we create memories, no?
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File memory.
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The file cabinet analogy we ve heard?
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Well, I don t like that one.
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I like that you don t like it.
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I guess I m sort of a punk neuroscientist because in neuroscience, there s a view of memory as being very literal and these kind of like traces and so forth.
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And you strengthen the traces.
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But the problem is that works in an animal that has very few memories in its life, like a lab animal.
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But humans have so many memories, it s a big ecosystem.
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And one of the things that many sleep researchers have found, and we found it in one study, is that sleep is this time really to combine information across different kinds of events.
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Because if our episodic memories are tied to a particular context, you can really restrict yourself from building some kind of a general schema.
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You re siloed, right?
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You re siloed.
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So it s like connecting silos at night.
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Exactly.
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So if I walked into your garage and I saw that you had like a bunch of Costco packages of Cheetos, then the next time I come and I see like a bunch of Costco things of Oreos, at some point during sleep, I can build this larger concept, which is Dax stores junk food in his garage.
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And so that is a kind of magic that comes out of sleep.
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And what you see after sleep is often people are more fluent in producing the information.
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Like if you re learning a new language that people are better at producing that information or trying to learn a new piece of music and you re better at producing that later.
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I hate to flip the script on you both, but I ve been dying to ask a proper actor and you re both proper actors.
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How do you memorize lines?
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And do you find that over time your memory changes and does it change over sleep?
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And does it change after you watch yourself in a performance?
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That s a good question.
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I feel like it depends.
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When I was doing theater school, I could memorize a whole part in a play and that didn t feel crazy.
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Now that would kind of feel crazy.
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Like I m surprised I was able to do that because I m not in that mode, but I just would read it.
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I don t think I had any major techniques.
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But you can improve on it at a staggering pace.
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So I had done movies for six years in a row.
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Then I got on a TV show and a movie you should
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shoot 120 pages in four months.
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On a TV show, you shoot 60 pages in six days.
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So over the course of nine months, you re shooting 10 movies.
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While it was always hard to memorize long monologues in movies, year two of the TV show, you could hand me a four page scene while I was sitting in the makeup trailer.
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I could read it one time and go out and do it.
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And I remember just being shocked with how easy and good it got.
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But I also want to add that I changed how I memorized the lines.
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I think I inadvertently stumbled upon something that probably would have helped in the movies, which is if you try to get every word of this sentence down, I get overwhelmed like I did when I had dyslexia.
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Like, well, this is not possible.
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When I tried to remember the point of everything I was saying, and I literally just memorized 13 points, lo and behold, all those words were attached to that.
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Is that very well known and demonstrated?
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Well, yeah.
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You hit upon a few things.
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One is you developed a skill, but the other is the importance of meaning.
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What I tell people, if you want to improve your memory, in other words, you want to remember something that you need and be able to pull it out when you need it.
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plant cues.
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So there has to be something that you don t have to engage in all sorts of executive functions to search around.
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Something right there in front of you can pull it up.
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So if you re thinking about the intentions of your character and you re thinking of the goal and the point, it s actually, in some sense, from a memory research perspective, you re adding load to what you need to remember.
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But you re locking it in to all of the stuff that you already have.
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You re locking this new information that s kind of arbitrary and made up to this information that s well locked into your head.
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So now when you think of the character, the words just kind of come out because it s a cue for the dialogue.
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If I m trying to memorize a name, it really helps.
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If I have listened to your podcast and now I see your face, I can go, ah, that s Monica because I have this knowledge that I can lock that name into.
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Is that the mental castle idea?
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When people are trying to remember a long list of, let s say groceries or something, you can build a- One word story?
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No, no.
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It s like you would go to this attic in your head and I would put bread at the lamp and bananas at my purse.
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So then I m walking around the attic in my head and I can remember it.
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Like from memory games.
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Yeah.
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It s called the memory palace.
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Memory palace.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Castle palace.
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Yeah, yeah, exactly.
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I like castle better.
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We should go with that.
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This is her further running from her Indian roots.
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Palace?
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Yeah, cause there was a lot of palaces when we were just in India.
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Not a lot of castles.
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I like it.
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But you know, that s also Harold and Kamara went to White Castle.
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Castle.
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I guess you re right.
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That kind of counteracts my point.
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I have two things that plague me in the way that you re plagued.
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They might be the same, but one is repressed memories.
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Do you believe in them?
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Yeah, so the standard view, which I subscribe to, is that repression is this idea that comes from Freudian psychology, these urges that are so unacceptable that you purge them from the conscious mind, and it s just an automatic defense mechanism.
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Freud once proposed that memories can be repressed by that mechanism of something traumatic that s happened to you.
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Later on, from what I understand, he even distanced himself from it, but there s a school of thought that that happened.
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There s no evidence of any kind that suggests that there s this automatic mechanism that suppresses memory.
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Now that said, there s a bunch of things that can happen.
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One thing that can happen is people try to suppress the memory consciously because they don t want to think about it.
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And my friend Mike Anderson has done research to show that that can make the memory less accessible.
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It can make it a little blurrier, again, through this updating mechanism.
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So that can be part of it.
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But also, sometimes people just aren t in the right context.
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And when you re in that context, this memory just pops up that you didn t have before.
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Sometimes it s that people remembered it, but then they forgot that they remembered it.
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It was accessible to them, but then they kind of went, okay, well, that was the past, it s not now.
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And then later on it pops into their head and it has this new immediacy.
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So there s all sorts of things that can happen in the world of memory.
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We kind of worship Paul Bloom and he said he doesn t believe in him.
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And so we kind of were like, okay, then we don t either.
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This is a little more flexible.
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He s not a memory guy, so this is important.
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A trick I heard on set from a camera operator, Scipio Africano, a camera operator has to know people s names more than most.
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He has to know the stand-ins names.
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He has to know all the guest actors names because he s going to be constantly asking them to stand in different positions.
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And he said his trick was to stand at craft service in the morning in loiter there.
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And as new people would arrive, he had learned if you need something from somebody,
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It helps you remember their name.
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So a stand-in would be at the thing and he would say, what s your name?
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Oh, I m Gail.
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Gail, could you hand me a creamer?
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And I wonder if there s any validity to that technique.
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I find it kind of fascinating.
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He certainly was great at names.
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I like that.
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What I have noticed, and this is shameful, but this is so true.
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I say I m bad at remembering names.
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I am not bad at remembering high status names that are in charge of my future.
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I don t have any trouble remembering the boss s name or the director s name or the producers.
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I need something from them.
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And somehow I m great at remembering names.
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Well, there s a bunch of things.
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So one thing is motivation and motivational circuitry that like the dopaminergic parts of the brain, for instance, in promoting memory.
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So that makes sense.
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The idea of linking it to a goal to the extent that there s a social reward there.
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is something that probably would make the event more memorable.
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I think what s missing from it is it s not linking the creamer to the facial features, because people will say often that they don t remember a name, but usually it s that they don t remember which name went with which face.
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Monica is a great name, but there s nothing that links your face to that name, other than the fact that people say that name every time they see you around.
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There s nothing inherent.
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That s right.
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It could be Courtney Cox s association.
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She was Monica and friends.
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So that name, there s all this competition there, but the creamer gives you a distinctive thing to lock into that makes it unique and makes this moment different.
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So you ve got meaning, you ve got goals and motivation, and it also just is focusing your attention.
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on those factors.
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Just the commitment to do it is halfway there, probably.
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This is something that I say a lot, which is, if you know that 80% of the details in your life or more are going to just vanish, what is the 20% that you want to hang on to?
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And I don t think we actually have the bandwidth in most of our daily life to think about what we want to hold on to.
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I lose names before I even have a chance to think that I need to memorize this name.
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Totally.
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I never thought about it this way, but it s sort of like the memory palace.
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People who study rats will say, well, it s because our brains are spatial and we put everything in space.
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Really what it is, it s a structure in your mind.
7
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of organizing information.
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And so if you imagine, for instance, we do take the file cabinet analogy and we have different files for different memories, then they re not competing with each other.
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It s not as if they re in the same folder in the same cabinet.
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So there s less competition.
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So if you know a role for each person on the set, that gives them a unique slot.
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It s almost like a room in your memory palace.
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all the great mnemonics like songs have a structure to them but social information all this stuff that s what i wanted to ask about why music is a full-time travel i feel we ve talked about that before how if you hear a song you can immediately transport back to an old memory why is that
7
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There s a number of factors.
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Number one is music tends to be on as a soundtrack to our experiences.
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So it s part of the context that we talk about that uniquely tells us about a time and place.
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So I went through a metal phase in late junior high to early high school.
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So a lot of metal links up uniquely to that period because it s part of that context.
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Now, if there s a song you ve listened to every day for 20 years, it s not going to give you that quality.
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But if there s a unique period of time, that helps.
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Then you form your musical taste during this period of time where you re forming your sense of who you are.
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And that s this period of time that we often look back upon.
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They call it the reminiscence bump.
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It s this period from about 14 to 30.
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I have you call it as 10 to 30.
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SPEAKER_00
10 to 30?
7
SPEAKER_00
OK, yeah, that s probably the more accurate.
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The reminiscent bump.
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I m not good with remembering details.
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But yeah, so that period of time that we tend to call back upon very often.
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Well, and in that reminiscent bump, that s where most of your favorite movies, your favorite books, your favorite music, they all live in that period.
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And it s so true for myself.
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I think of all of my favorites.
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Very few of them exist outside of that window.
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Cause that s when the identity is being formed.
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That s when you re really getting a sense of who I am.
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Another part of it is music tends to be emotionally arousing, evocative, and it s social.
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We listen to music with other people.
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And it has a structure to it, too, where that naturally links up different things.
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But I really feel like the emotion, the social nature of it, and the time-limited part of it.
7
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So I have a colleague, a friend, Peter Gianotta, who studies music and autobiographical memory.
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And so he gets biographies of people by playing songs that were popular on the Billboard charts during particular years of their life.
7
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Ah, he uses that to cue up the memories.
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Cue up the memories, yeah.
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Wow.
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I thought you were going to talk about these Alzheimer s people, yeah, who can just play everything they ever learned musically.
7
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Yeah.
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Victims of trauma this is something we talk endlessly on this show about and I think this is something conceptually I wrestle with daily as someone who s in.
8
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therapy and regularly talking about the past there is some voice in my head that says it is time to let that be the past and to not let the first nine years of my life dictate the remaining 90.
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There s almost a motive to forget and I m curious what your thoughts on that are.
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Well, remembering traumatic experiences is painful.
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I hear from people, I get emails from people.
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There s always people in my audience who say, how can I get rid of traumatic memories?
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And with the sensitivity to the fact that I get it, but it s like, you don t want to erase the memory.
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You want to change your relationship with the memory.
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And that s very hard when you re trapped in your own head and trapped in your own perspective.
8
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That was another one of my questions, but you re kind of incorporating into it, which is how memories that are formed with another person are different and how forming memories together, it s its own thing as well.
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I used a statistic that I got from an analysis in the book.
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I think it was something like 30% of human language is spent basically communicating memories with others and
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I would argue that s probably why we evolved language, because I don t have to make mistakes to learn from them.
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I can learn from your mistakes.
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And that is this enormous capability that we have language.
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So memory is so intertwined with that social language function that we have of communication.
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And there s many parts of it, but one big part of it is you have this memory updating capability, which is if I share a memory, now you give it back to me.
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Again, you ve got a memory of my memory because I ve shared it with you, but now I m seeing that memory from your, even just telling you, making a story that you can understand and trying to use theory of mind to say, Hey, let me explain this in a way that Dax will be interested in.
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Let me put this thought that s in my mind into your mind.
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And that is creating a narrative that wasn t necessarily there before.
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And that s now a new memory.
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That s a new part of your life story.
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And so these social interactions that we have reshape our memories constantly.
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And then you think about things that are shared experiences, like we all live through the COVID lockdowns.
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And maybe I had my experience, you had your experience.
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We talk about that.
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It s a collective memory.
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And so, so much of human memory, we re so intricately social, that our memories of our experiences, you d be hard-pressed to pull out a lot of memories from your life that don t have a social component to them.
8
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Right.
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Well, it did make me think, often when I tell my brother about a memory that we both should have, we rarely agree.
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And then I have my childhood best friend, Aaron Weakley.
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This happens all the time on this show.
8
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I m like, I think these fucking five ninjas jumped out, and that can t be possibly what happened when we left this bar.
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And then we ll call Aaron and I ll go, what happened?
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We got thrown out of that bar in New York.
8
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He s like, he had like five ninjas and Adidas jumpsuits jumped out of nowhere.
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He and I are always in lockstep, which I find to be very rare.
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Even married, our memories are much different, but I m just curious if there s something to the fact that he and I are so similar and our perspectives are so similar that there s rarely any disjointedness in our shared memory.
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Whereas other people that I have a much different perspective of just baseline rarely did those match up.
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I think that s true.
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And not just that, but you re communicating during these shared experiences and you re communicating with this beautiful understanding of each other.
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This is actually a fascinating thing about the brain is in this context, we re creating this shared, I m trying to get into your head and understand your goals and your understanding of the world.
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You re trying to understand mine.
8
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And so who I am in this context is different than who I am in other contexts, because I m engaging in a different kind of shared narrative that we re creating.
8
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We tend to think of the brain as a bunch of localized areas that do their own thing.
8
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But brain areas interact with one another in a sense that s parallel to people.
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And the function of a brain area actually can change.
8
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We can computationally show this in models based on these interactions.
8
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But getting back to your point,
8
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If you re very good at creating this kind of a shared mental space, who we are in this moment and communicating so beautifully to each other, you can just look at each other.
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You re communicating just through a look.
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Your perspectives are going to be very similar because it s a collective experience.
8
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And so much of your experience of that event is your partner.
8
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they ve told that story together before, and so even the word ninja, like you guys did that in a telling at some point.
8
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Sure, probably the morning after it happened.
8
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Exactly, and so you guys are creating the story together so it s gonna match up.
8
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We co-author all these memories.
8
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Yeah.
8
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So you do have prescriptions in this book, the goal of it being to make mindful and intentional choices to maximize the positive effect of memory on well-being and adaptive function.
8
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So I think people will want to know what kind of things can they do to make better choices, given that, as you say, most of everything we witness, we re not going to remember.
8
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So if we re only going to remember 20%, how do we focus and become intentional upon that?
8
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I think we need to allow ourselves time.
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Executive functions take effort and it takes time.
8
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And I think that s a big part of making these mindful choices, just giving ourselves the time to say, what is my goal here?
8
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What do I want to remember?
8
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And then there s another part of it, which is what are my goals in general?
8
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And so if I m planning for the future, I might plan a vacation and I know
8
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full well that a vacation involves me sitting around and just obsessing about Airbnbs and trying to find the perfect place, trying to find the perfect price, sitting in line at airport security.
8
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But later on, when I think about what happened over the course of the year, that s what I will remember is spending time with my wife and my daughter and going out to some restaurant, laughing and those things.
8
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Those are the moments that I want to remember.
8
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But on the other hand, sitting watching TikTok videos, I mean, no offense,
8
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That s not something I want to remember a year from now.
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It s about being mindful of what are the memories that I want to plant and curating those future memories for your future self.
8
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Again, that makes me think of Kahneman and the experiential self versus the narrative self.
8
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It sounds like you re prioritizing the narrative self.
8
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That s the self that calls the shots and that s the only self that lasts.
8
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This moment is already gone.
8
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It s memory.
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Right.
8
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This has to be addressed because it s probably the thing that s most present when you leave your house, which is you go to a concert and everyone is filming the entire thing as if they re a videographer and as if they re going to watch this thing, which no one ever will watch this video.
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How are you obscuring your memory by doing that?
8
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How are you tainting it?
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I love this because I m noticing this.
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I was at a Descendants concert and it s like this older punk band, but there are all these young people there with their phones up.
8
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And I was like, people would be stage diving into these.
8
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Sure, sure.
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Swatting them out of hands.
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Exactly.
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The interesting thing is this relates to people s idea that if I document what happens, I will remember it.
8
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because of their spurious association with the memory working like a video camera.
8
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Exactly.
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And I think there s two things wrong with that.
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One is you re no longer actually in the moment.
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You are thinking about recording.
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You re not actually experiencing this anymore.
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I m actually experiencing the recording of this event.
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But then on top of it, if I m doing that, I m focusing on what happened.
8
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So if I go to a show and I m seeing a musician, it s not about the music.
8
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It s about the connection, the experience of feeling that music, being with my friends, being in this place, the physical punch of the bass drum into your chest.
8
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And you re losing all that when you focus on your phone.
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I might even remember what happened.
8
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I remember, yeah, they played this particular song, but I don t re-experience it because I wasn t attending to that conscious experience.
8
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And this is partly why I focus people on the details that will put you back in this place in time and the emotions are part of it, because that s what you want to remember.
8
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I can go on YouTube now and pull up any video that someone else recorded.
8
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And also you re so right to say you re making the mistake to think that the priority of a show is the band playing the music.
8
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That seems very obvious.
8
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And the thing that should be filmed, but I went to a thousand shows as a kid in Detroit, and I can tell you there was a girl in a green sweater standing by the speaker.
8
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And that s really what I watched that show.
8
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And then there was a guy that I thought was too aggressive in the mosque pit that I wanted to go fucking sheriff on.
8
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And then there was a drink.
8
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I want like really the experience was all the other things that were happening.
8
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in the context of the band playing.
8
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This is the mistake that people make is they think memory is about what happened.
8
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Episodic memory is about the experience, not just the content.
8
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What is only a small part of it?
8
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There s the feeling, there s the place, that context is such a big part of it, which is not content.
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And you
8
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lose that when you don t attend to the context and you get something different.
8
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And you re absolutely right.
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It s like when I do remember the show itself, it s about what I felt when I looked into them and they re just totally immersed in the music and I m feeling what they re communicating to me.
8
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It s not the content.
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It s not like, oh yeah, I remember they played the song at 160 beats per minute.
8
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That s not it.
8
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It s like letting in the vibe of this bizarre optimism and this notion of youth and we re going to do whatever the fuck we want.
8
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And this isn t school.
8
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That s the thing you re there for.
8
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Oh yeah.
8
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Wow.
8
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Wow.
8
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Wow.
8
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What a fascinating topic.
8
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It is.
8
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I got to imagine it s one of the harder things to tackle.
8
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Cause like I m saying, you ve said it to me and I still am like, I would want to hear
9
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No, you create a memory and it builds a new cell, and in that cell is the data.
9
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But this is just so much more, it is, and it s so much more nuanced.
9
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It s a very hard thing to track down.
9
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Yeah, even I was like, oh, it s the hippocampus.
9
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We learned that in ninth grade.
9
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I m like, no.
9
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Not really, kind of.
9
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It s definitely a big part of it.
9
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Oh, let me just say one thing about the photographs that I ll get back to this other point, which is you can use the camera in ways to enhance the memory.
9
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You can say, I m going to take a picture of this moment because this means a lot to me right now.
9
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I m going to take 10 seconds of video of them playing my favorite song because I have this feeling in my heart at this moment that I want to have a cue to pull up.
9
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Or you can say my
9
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daughter is just loving this pasta that we got.
9
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I m going to take a picture of her.
9
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She s not going to want me to do it.
9
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I m not going to show it to anybody else, but it s forcing me to attend to this moment.
9
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And it s planting a little cue in my head.
9
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So then I think of that restaurant.
9
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Well, you said on vacations, you now take candid pictures.
9
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which I thought was a great distinction.
9
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And it made me think immediately, Monica liked this picture a lot the other day that I posted.
9
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And I remember the picture very well because Aaron and I were supposed to be posing for a picture, but then we both started laughing at how embarrassing it was that we were posing for a picture.
9
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And in the picture, I m kind of doubled over laughing with embarrassment of what we re doing.
9
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is in the sand dunes.
9
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And Monica was like, oh my God, I love that picture of you and Aaron, because it s really you and Aaron.
9
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Us posing s not Aaron and I. Me laughing with embarrassment that we re posing is Aaron and I. That s so funny.
9
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I just yelled at my dad for doing this like three days ago.
9
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In Arizona?
9
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Yeah.
9
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He was just standing up taking random pictures.
9
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And I was like, Dad, what are you doing?
9
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We re not going to use any of these pictures or look at them again, because no one s looking.
9
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No one s paying any attention.
9
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And I guess that was the wrong thing to say.
9
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I m not going to tell him.
9
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I feel like because you re both Indian, I want to explore this fun thing, which is like... Dabs?
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
9
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Your own story is present in the book, which is lovely.
9
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And even when you re talking about dealing with your memories and constructing your identity and having been this kid who was hiding his Indianism outside of the house and very much practicing the Indianness inside the house, allowed to eat meat at friends house, not eating meat at home, racism, where do I fit in school, ADHD.
9
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Cut to you re being interviewed by the New York Times.
9
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These are incongruous.
9
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You can t have both identities working at the same time.
9
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One is like, I m a total outcast.
9
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I m so unique.
9
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I don t fit into anything.
9
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And then, no, I m also worthy of being.
9
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So you have to like marry these things.
9
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Yeah.
9
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And depending on what context I m in, this gets into this complexity thing, because I think for a lot of memory researchers,
9
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I don t think we would be able to figure out in our heads what this is, but it s like this code switching thing that happens.
9
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I m around certain people and I could just get into this mindset.
9
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I can pull up memories that I wouldn t necessarily pull up otherwise and I get into a different group.
9
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I can be very confident when I m talking to a big group of people and I m performing and I ve got something to say and I ve got a role.
9
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And then you could put me in a group of people where I m supposed to be social and I m just like, oh, back
9
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Back then it was really true.
9
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I d be the only brown person on stage playing a guitar or the only brown person in this room full of really nice, but you know, all white dudes.
9
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The Indian parent thing.
9
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I will try to make peace with how my family acted and how Monica s family acted.
9
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The priority placed on safety and economic security and the lack of indulgent, I love you s and you re so perfect.
9
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You know, these cultural differences that clearly exist.
9
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The flip side of that coin is Monica will be so hard on her parents.
9
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And I m like, this is kind of great.
9
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It s like a two way street.
9
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All of it culturally is so fascinating to me.
9
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Monica, you want to tell me about your childhood?
9
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I don t think it s better, though.
9
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I m not looking at this very affectionate
9
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white culture.
9
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Now I m not anyway, looking at it and thinking like, oh man, I wish I had that.
9
SPEAKER_02
I m happy with what I had.
9
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I think it served me very well.
9
SPEAKER_02
It s different, but I don t think better or worse.
9
SPEAKER_00
I don t either.
9
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I am endlessly fascinated by the power of culture.
9
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I just love it.
9
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My wife should too.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s all functioning with the same outcome in essence.
9
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You re like bringing these little creatures that can t fend for themselves out into the world and turning them over.
9
SPEAKER_00
And there s like all these different approaches.
9
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There s pros and cons of it all.
9
SPEAKER_00
And it s interesting.
9
SPEAKER_00
When I read your story, I thought, Oh, this is kind of mirrors Monica s in a way where a lot of.
9
SPEAKER_00
guests we have that are Indian, they were very immersed in it and were expected to act that way outside of the house.
9
SPEAKER_00
Whereas Monica s parents are, I guess we d say very liberal in the conventional immigrant story.
9
SPEAKER_00
They weren t telling her she has to be a lawyer or this or that.
9
SPEAKER_00
So it s like there was a lot of flexibility that seemed kind of novel.
9
SPEAKER_00
But yours sounded very novel too in that, yeah, when you re out of the house, blend in, eat meat.
9
SPEAKER_01
We really had this immigrant mentality of keep your head down.
9
SPEAKER_02
Assimilate.
9
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And assimilate because it s not necessarily... It s dangerous.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
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My parents, I feel like I had a lot more dissonance with that experience than they did in some way, or at least than they ll talk about.
9
SPEAKER_01
But for me, anyway, that was very much the sense that I got is on the one hand, this very strong belief that you have a culture that you need to preserve.
9
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This is who you are.
9
SPEAKER_01
But you also need to keep your head down and just blend in in the outside world.
9
SPEAKER_01
And that was just a really difficult thing for me to be able to do because I just do me for better or for worse.
9
SPEAKER_01
But it was hard and it really did mess with my way of thinking about things in certain ways.
9
SPEAKER_01
This relates back to the traumatic memory thing.
9
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I can look at a bunch of people who came from my background at the same time, but didn t seem to come out of it the same way that I did and don t, you know, come back and they ve got a hangover or something and they re like thinking about all these crappy things that happened to them 30 years ago.
9
SPEAKER_01
I do.
9
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I don t know what makes us different, but there s something.
9
SPEAKER_01
We come up with these narratives in these stories, right?
9
SPEAKER_01
But the fact is, the majority of people who experience trauma do not develop post-traumatic stress disorder.
9
SPEAKER_01
The majority of people who
9
SPEAKER_01
take cocaine, do not become cocaine addicts.
9
SPEAKER_01
There are people who can smoke crack fairly often and do not become addicted.
9
SPEAKER_01
So there are these differences that are there.
9
SPEAKER_01
And it doesn t mean that the person who becomes an addict is weak.
9
SPEAKER_01
It doesn t mean that the person who gets PTSD is weak.
9
SPEAKER_01
If anything, it s like our brains are just optimized for different checks and balances, different competing goals that we have of survival, of getting rewards.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, there s some parallel between memory and story and memory and identity.
9
SPEAKER_00
They re kind of linked.
9
SPEAKER_00
Any human is, I think, attempting to pressure test their story.
9
SPEAKER_00
I find it very hard to do.
9
SPEAKER_01
And I think this is where memory can be either limiting or liberating.
9
SPEAKER_01
Often it s limiting because it feeds into our beliefs.
9
SPEAKER_01
And you remember that one time that you embarrassed yourself in front of everybody and that shaped your belief that you mess up in public.
9
SPEAKER_01
You can t speak in public.
9
SPEAKER_01
There s something wrong with you.
9
SPEAKER_01
And so that s your prediction going into the event.
9
SPEAKER_01
That s shaping your attention.
9
SPEAKER_01
And then that s filtering your memories.
9
SPEAKER_01
It becomes confirmation bias.
9
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
9
SPEAKER_01
But you can do the opposite.
9
SPEAKER_01
You can see this in people s things with visualizing the positive outcome.
9
SPEAKER_01
You can remember times in your life where you violated that expectation.
9
SPEAKER_01
You can remember exceptions to this belief.
9
SPEAKER_01
People have done this in experiments.
9
SPEAKER_01
Dan Schachter s lab has done some cool stuff where you imagine yourself or you remember an event where you re altruistic.
9
SPEAKER_01
and people will feel more altruistic in the present.
9
SPEAKER_01
You can remember a time when you were happy and you will feel happier in the present.
9
SPEAKER_01
Memory can give you options if you do that little mental effort to pull out the memory that s not easy, but it can constrain your options if you let the context dictate what s going to pull things out.
9
SPEAKER_00
Okay, the last thing I want to say, I am not educated enough on it to make this observation, but here we are, I ve read a third of a Buddhist book, every single concept I m so attracted to, and I m reading your book and I m like, this is all Buddhism.
9
SPEAKER_00
The core tenet of Buddhism is there s no self because consciousness arises from a context, and context is constantly changing, so consciousness is constantly changing.
9
SPEAKER_00
And the idea of a self is an illusion because you re a different self in every context.
9
SPEAKER_00
And so when I look at how malleable the memories are and how we access them and what mood we re in, it s all about context.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I just feel like it overlaps so beautifully with what limited amount I m learning about Buddhism.
9
SPEAKER_01
I ve been thinking a lot about Buddhism as I was writing the book.
9
SPEAKER_01
Are you versed in it a bit?
9
SPEAKER_01
Not enough.
9
SPEAKER_01
I was raised Hindu and Buddhism is really an offshoot of Hinduism.
9
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A really important and interesting and fascinating offshoot.
9
SPEAKER_01
But there s a lot of similarity.
9
SPEAKER_01
I actually think a lot about the parallels between the Bhagavad Gita and the tenets of Buddhism, because one s about renunciation, and another is about not renouncing everything, but renouncing the fruits of your action, renouncing the outcome, and embracing the reason for doing it, not for the outcome.
9
SPEAKER_01
But getting back to your question, I had done mindfulness-based stress reduction at one point.
9
SPEAKER_01
What I got from this was that I was a miserable failure at mindfulness.
9
SPEAKER_00
I think most people feel that way.
9
SPEAKER_01
Feeling like completely low self-esteem.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
I was talking to Amishi Jha, who s been on your show, and you re reading her book and thinking about things I was writing in my book.
9
SPEAKER_01
And I realized this is exactly what it s supposed to be because I m entering the world of memory all the time and remembering things.
10
SPEAKER_00
imagining things, anticipating things.
10
SPEAKER_00
Mindfulness was really being aware of that, observing it when it s happening.
10
SPEAKER_00
And that s error-driven learning right there.
10
SPEAKER_00
You re learning this habit.
10
SPEAKER_00
And so people will say, mindfulness changes the brain.
10
SPEAKER_00
Oh, everything changes the brain.
10
SPEAKER_00
So that s stupid.
10
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, candy bar does.
10
SPEAKER_00
Exactly, right?
10
SPEAKER_00
So, but the interesting part of it is you re learning a new habit, which is to observe from the third person, changing the perspective, and you re observing this thing that s coming in.
10
SPEAKER_00
And that meta level of observation, I think, is a hugely important thing in terms of being able to distance yourself from the effect of an intrusive memory, to distance yourself and see the predictions that you re making about the future.
10
SPEAKER_03
This is the basis of CBT, right?
10
SPEAKER_00
CBT is relevant, but it s more about challenging people s beliefs by giving them counterexamples.
10
SPEAKER_00
And then the behavior part is just having them repeatedly do things that they re afraid of.
10
SPEAKER_00
But this is why mindfulness has really gone into the therapy world and really balances well with CBT is part of it is you have to see the belief in action.
10
SPEAKER_00
You have to recognize it when it s happening.
10
SPEAKER_00
Because the problem is, this goes back to what we were talking about in the beginning, is once you get into that mindset,
10
SPEAKER_00
you re off to the races.
10
SPEAKER_00
But if you can see it flipping and you can distance yourself from it, that s what you want.
10
SPEAKER_03
Because you can t remember it if you didn t observe it.
10
SPEAKER_00
Basically, it s like you can t control that shift in context if you don t see it happening in the first place, right?
10
SPEAKER_00
If you don t have this intention.
10
SPEAKER_00
of a goal that, you know, you re keeping in mind.
10
SPEAKER_00
Or if you just don t have a habit of stepping backwards and saying, I m feeling something.
10
SPEAKER_00
What is this I m feeling?
10
SPEAKER_00
Let s be curious about it.
10
SPEAKER_00
Another thing that I got from Buddhism is also just this fact that I love memory.
10
SPEAKER_00
You don t want to be remembering all the time.
10
SPEAKER_00
You want it to be a resource.
10
SPEAKER_00
And then a lot of the time you want to be in the moment.
10
SPEAKER_03
There is a very philosophical question about everyone would want a better memory.
10
SPEAKER_03
And even there is talk and these people who think we re going to ultimately augment our memory with some kind of offshore database and that appeals to people.
10
SPEAKER_03
But I almost wonder if it almost ends up.
10
SPEAKER_03
living your entire life filming the concert you don t want that accurate of a memory because you re then destined to live in the past and we should be living today and forward so there is this weird paradox to it all i think so you want to
10
SPEAKER_00
form memories in an intentional way as best you can.
10
SPEAKER_00
And you don t want to be pulling up memories all the time.
10
SPEAKER_00
It s a resource that you say, hey, I m struggling right now.
10
SPEAKER_00
And this is our computational models of memories are saying if we were remembering all the time, you d almost be hallucinating.
10
SPEAKER_00
It s actually relevant to theories of psychosis.
10
SPEAKER_00
But you want to be able to use it at moments when you re struggling and you need to call back on your past to figure things out.
10
SPEAKER_00
So it should be intermittent.
10
SPEAKER_00
It shouldn t be this whole world that you go into and disappear in unless that s what you want.
10
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, because people would probably just end up living in the 10 to 30 zone that they created all their favorite everythings.
10
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_03
Oh, well, this is wonderful.
10
SPEAKER_03
I really appreciate it.
10
SPEAKER_03
Everyone should check out Why We Remember, Unlocking Memory s Power to Hold On to What Matters.
10
SPEAKER_03
And if you re lucky enough to attend UC Davis, you should definitely take a class.
10
SPEAKER_03
Enjoy this punk rock neuroscientist.
10
SPEAKER_03
I want to take a class.
10
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_03
So great having you.
10
SPEAKER_03
Thank you so much.
10
SPEAKER_03
Thank you for having me.
10
SPEAKER_03
This has been a blast.
10
SPEAKER_03
We ll go take a couple pictures in our punk rock shirts.
10
SPEAKER_03
Stay tuned for the fact check so you can hear all the facts that were wrong.
10
SPEAKER_03
Okay, I don t know if this is the right foot to start on, but I do need to make a correction.
10
SPEAKER_03
When you asked me for Monday s fact check if there was any blowback about the sunscreen, I actually now realize I hadn t looked.
10
SPEAKER_03
But there was certainly, they came.
10
SPEAKER_03
The sunscreen police came.
10
SPEAKER_03
They decided to show up.
10
SPEAKER_03
They descended on me.
10
SPEAKER_03
Big sunscreen.
10
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, big sunscreen.
10
SPEAKER_03
But someone sent me an article, and now I feel inclined to add some details.
10
SPEAKER_03
What do you think about that?
10
SPEAKER_03
Defensive?
10
SPEAKER_03
Probably.
10
SPEAKER_03
Let it go?
10
SPEAKER_04
Probably.
10
SPEAKER_03
Well, there s just tons of interesting information in this article.
10
SPEAKER_04
About why we shouldn t wear sunscreen?
10
SPEAKER_03
That really supports what I was saying.
10
SPEAKER_03
No, I m not, I want to be dead clear.
10
SPEAKER_03
I have no advice for somebody on sunscreen.
10
SPEAKER_03
But the fact that I m saying I wear it very selectively and people are saying I m stupid because of it, I m inclined to say that, you know, minimally you should know there is an alternative argument that is from scientists, not just me.
10
SPEAKER_03
But skip it.
10
SPEAKER_04
I think we skip it, and I think whoever s saying you re stupid because of it, maybe this is why you don t read comments.
10
SPEAKER_04
Because somebody s going to say you re stupid about fucking everything.
10
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, the one really important thing that did come out of the air call I want to say is that melanoma is super common.
10
SPEAKER_03
One in five is now the number of people, it is the most common cancer in the world, and one in five people will have it, or maybe it was one in seven, but it s enormously high.
10
SPEAKER_03
The kind that can kill you is actually a very, very low percentage, and then the people who have that kind
10
SPEAKER_03
people who were indoors and unhealthy were eight times more likely to die of it.
10
SPEAKER_03
So there s this really ironic association with people who were actually had massive skin exposure to the sun, have a survival rate from the very low percentage that s lethal at eight times the rate survival.
10
SPEAKER_04
Okay.
10
SPEAKER_03
Okay.
10
SPEAKER_03
I won t read you the article.
10
SPEAKER_03
It was my opportunity, though, to do Taylor s commencement speech, because it was way too long.
10
SPEAKER_04
But it is a real, real, just straight-up, legit fact.
10
SPEAKER_04
Sun is not good for the texture of your skin.
10
1,000%.
10
SPEAKER_03
Yep, makes you look older and wrinkly and worn out.
10
SPEAKER_04
Speaking of update, I went to the dermatologist.
10
SPEAKER_04
I did not get Kybella.
10
SPEAKER_03
I gotta say, I was a little disappointed.
10
SPEAKER_03
That flipped, huh?
10
SPEAKER_03
First you were nervous I was gonna tell you not to do it.
10
SPEAKER_04
Right.
10
SPEAKER_03
And then I was really neutral.
10
SPEAKER_03
And then you came over on Saturday to play cards with who?
10
SPEAKER_04
Aaron.
10
SPEAKER_03
Hi.
10
SPEAKER_04
I didn t even know he was sitting there.
10
SPEAKER_04
Pop out.
10
SPEAKER_03
That was a pop out.
10
SPEAKER_03
Surprise.
10
SPEAKER_03
A friendly pop out though.
10
SPEAKER_04
There s scary pop outs.
10
SPEAKER_04
There s Liz, not Liz Plank, Liz Dateline pop outs and then there s Aaron pop outs.
10
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_04
Different.
10
SPEAKER_03
BFAW pop outs.
10
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_03
Okay, so yeah, you came over to play spades.
10
SPEAKER_03
You obliterated Aaron and I. I wouldn t say obliterated, but we, Kristen and I won.
10
SPEAKER_01
Wasn t it a thrashing, I think?
10
SPEAKER_01
Well, we came back from the thrashing.
10
SPEAKER_01
Oh, we did.
10
SPEAKER_01
It definitely was a thrashing until.
10
SPEAKER_01
Oh, yeah.
10
SPEAKER_04
And then you made a big comeback.
10
SPEAKER_03
We gave it a run.
10
SPEAKER_04
But then we did win.
10
SPEAKER_03
You shellacked us, and you had just come, and you said, I didn t get it.
10
SPEAKER_04
And then I felt myself a little bit go like, no.
10
SPEAKER_04
Why?
10
SPEAKER_03
Because you were excited to get it.
10
SPEAKER_03
And it would have kind of shown the side of you I always try to encourage.
10
SPEAKER_03
It was a little more reckless, because you re very responsible.
10
SPEAKER_04
I am, and I still am.
10
SPEAKER_04
I didn t get it for a couple reasons.
10
SPEAKER_01
Bring Erin up to speed.
10
SPEAKER_04
Okay, go ahead.
10
SPEAKER_01
No, I was listening Saturday.
10
SPEAKER_01
I think I m up to speed.
10
SPEAKER_04
You would know that I wanted to get Kybella.
10
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
10
SPEAKER_01
And then you were very hesitant Saturday.
10
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_01
And it sounded like Dax, Saturday, at least to me, sounded like he wanted you to get it.
10
SPEAKER_04
Now it feels worse than the other.
10
SPEAKER_01
I can t win.
10
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_03
Well, before I was like, don t fuck with yourself.
10
SPEAKER_03
You re a 10.
10
SPEAKER_03
What are we doing?
10
SPEAKER_03
And then I, then I came around.
10
SPEAKER_03
I was like, whatever makes you feel good.
10
SPEAKER_03
Like I want you to do what makes you feel good.
10
SPEAKER_04
Then I was happy with that.
10
SPEAKER_04
That s the right answer.
10
SPEAKER_03
Okay, great.
10
SPEAKER_03
And then when you didn t get it, I should ve been happy for you, you didn t get it.
10
SPEAKER_04
It s like whatever you want.
10
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, same.
10
SPEAKER_04
Same thing, whatever you want, whatever you re feeling.
10
SPEAKER_03
Chef s choice.
10
SPEAKER_03
Great.
10
SPEAKER_04
Because remember the one part that we all recognize would be horrible is if I said, oh, I m thinking about getting Kybella, and then the person said, yeah, about time.
10
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, that was the worst.
10
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, that s what he Dax is saying now.
10
SPEAKER_03
Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.
10
SPEAKER_03
But this all stems from which Aaron is not up to speed on.
10
SPEAKER_03
I hold firm on this position.
10
SPEAKER_03
Okay.
10
SPEAKER_03
Fucking Monica was considering getting veneers.
10
SPEAKER_03
Okay.
10
SPEAKER_03
Fake teeth up front.
10
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, yeah.
10
SPEAKER_03
And I was like, what on earth are you talking about?
10
SPEAKER_03
I m just confused about that part.
10
SPEAKER_04
See how big these are?
10
SPEAKER_04
And then these are- No.
10
SPEAKER_02
I don t.
10
SPEAKER_02
What Aaron and I see is instead of teeth, we would kill to have.
10
SPEAKER_02
They re white as hell.
10
SPEAKER_02
They re straight as an arrow.
10
SPEAKER_01
I almost thought you would only be doing it as a joke, like to get big teeth or something.
10
SPEAKER_04
No, no, just- Which would be funny.
10
SPEAKER_04
Even at all, Al.
10
SPEAKER_04
Anyway, it doesn t matter.
10
SPEAKER_04
I m not getting them probably.
10
SPEAKER_04
Probably.
10
SPEAKER_04
I don t want to commit, but I m probably not getting them.
10
SPEAKER_04
Also because I don t like the permanence of shaving them down.
10
SPEAKER_04
That s why you can t go back.
10
SPEAKER_03
It s like a electrolysis.
10
SPEAKER_04
It s more permanent than Kybella because you could regain your neck fat.
10
SPEAKER_03
Okay.
10
SPEAKER_04
Okay.
10
SPEAKER_04
So when I went there, the reason I didn t get it, I was going to get it.
10
SPEAKER_03
Don t spare me any details.
10
SPEAKER_03
You wake up that morning, you know you have the appointment.
10
SPEAKER_03
Are you excited about the new you or are you already nervous about it?
10
SPEAKER_04
I m nervous and excited and telling myself I can make the decision when I m there.
10
SPEAKER_04
I don t need to think too much about it.
10
SPEAKER_04
It s okay.
10
SPEAKER_04
And then I went in there and she has me fill out paperwork.
10
SPEAKER_04
So on the paperwork, it asked me about my medications and stuff.
10
SPEAKER_04
So I have to put my anti-seizure medication on there.
10
SPEAKER_04
And she starts asking about that and the seizures and
11
SPEAKER_02
Then she starts asking about my face.
11
SPEAKER_02
She says, what are your concerns?
11
SPEAKER_02
So then I start telling her about all my skin, like my skin issues from being a kid.
11
SPEAKER_02
I mean, she s a dermatologist.
11
SPEAKER_01
I know, but I doubt that s what she was asking.
11
SPEAKER_02
Well, okay, so I m telling her all the- Let me start from the beginning.
11
SPEAKER_02
Let me show you a picture of me as a baby.
11
SPEAKER_01
In a field of grass.
11
SPEAKER_02
I want that skin.
11
SPEAKER_02
No, I would say, look, she has a neck problem even then.
11
SPEAKER_01
This is her story.
11
SPEAKER_02
Okay, so I tell her about all my hormonal acne and all this stuff.
11
SPEAKER_01
And then I say- You re dating history.
11
SPEAKER_01
Basically, like I can t, no one likes me, right?
11
SPEAKER_02
Let me tell you about this Dairy Queen situation.
11
SPEAKER_02
So I m saying all this and then I was like, okay, but like, I kind of like snapped back into it.
11
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, so really- Cause you thought she was yawning or she had gone to sleep?
11
SPEAKER_02
No, I just realized like, that s not why I m here.
11
SPEAKER_02
Cause I have a witch for that.
11
SPEAKER_01
Yes, you re here for some cosmetic adjustments.
11
SPEAKER_01
But maybe you were even wanting to justify why you were, like that was your way of feeling like you weren t there for cosmetic reasons?
11
SPEAKER_02
No, but everyone s there for cosmetic reasons.
11
SPEAKER_01
I know, but the wine teller all about that.
11
SPEAKER_02
Exactly, I don t know, I think I was nervous.
11
SPEAKER_02
So then I say, but really I just like, I hate my neck, I hate the way it looks.
11
SPEAKER_02
Let me show you this video.
11
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I know you can see me in person, but let me show you this video and this is what I don t like.
11
SPEAKER_02
And she was like, okay.
11
SPEAKER_02
And then she kind of like feels around.
11
SPEAKER_01
Was she squeezing it and stuff?
11
SPEAKER_02
Well, yeah.
11
SPEAKER_02
And she said, I guess what I would recommend is Kybella.
11
SPEAKER_02
And it s a non-surgical, it s an injection.
11
SPEAKER_02
What it does is it melts the fat and it tightens.
11
SPEAKER_02
She said, but actually, you actually don t have enough fat there.
11
SPEAKER_02
You have a very small chin.
11
SPEAKER_01
Okay, yeah, we could build that out a little bit.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, so then she was like, so we could do some filler in the chin.
11
SPEAKER_02
And then I started panicking.
11
SPEAKER_02
I was like, oh God, this is getting out of hand quick.
11
SPEAKER_02
And she said something like, well, or you could do a full, something crazy, right?
11
SPEAKER_02
Some big surgery, but you shouldn t do that.
11
SPEAKER_02
She was just saying a lot.
11
SPEAKER_02
And I was, the panic was starting to increase.
11
SPEAKER_01
You were starting to feel peer pressure, which is your trigger.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, but then she said, but first let s start with your skin.
11
SPEAKER_02
So then she did address my skin issues and my long history, and actually that was the majority of the appointment.
11
SPEAKER_02
Because she put me on a new regimen.
11
SPEAKER_02
And then I was like, fuck, I wasn t here for this, but now I m buying all these products.
11
SPEAKER_02
I know, and then I didn t even get the Kybella.
11
SPEAKER_01
I m like, fuck all that shit, give her the Kybella, we re getting out of here.
11
SPEAKER_02
No, but actually, I think I m gonna love the regimen.
11
SPEAKER_01
Oh, so hard to know.
11
SPEAKER_01
It s really hard for me to support you.
11
SPEAKER_01
Like you, you are zigging and zagging like you re running from a crocodile.
11
SPEAKER_02
Anywho, she wanted me to check with my neurologist.
11
SPEAKER_02
She wanted me to double check with the neurologist before doing anything.
11
SPEAKER_02
So she said, check, check about the laser and check about the laser makes sense.
11
SPEAKER_02
Definitely.
11
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
11
SPEAKER_02
And she s like, oh, probably be fine, but I just want you to like triple check.
11
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, they re trying to off lay any liability at all costs.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, which is smart.
11
SPEAKER_02
And I liked that she said that, because she could have had it done.
11
SPEAKER_01
I d be so annoyed if I were a neurologist, though.
11
SPEAKER_01
I keep getting all these calls from my patients, like, hey, I m thinking about buying a convertible.
11
SPEAKER_01
Is that okay with my epilepsy?
11
SPEAKER_01
Like, Jesus Christ, what are you talking about?
11
SPEAKER_01
That s their job.
11
SPEAKER_01
I m thinking about getting a laser treatment.
11
SPEAKER_01
What does that even do?
11
SPEAKER_02
It s near your brain.
11
SPEAKER_01
The laser s not shooting into your brain.
11
SPEAKER_02
Light affects seizures often.
11
SPEAKER_01
Flickering light on your eyes triggers seizures.
11
SPEAKER_02
Okay, I m not gonna get in a conversation with, a fight with you about seizures.
11
SPEAKER_01
It is the flickering, it s the flickering and the strobing that sets off seizures.
11
SPEAKER_02
It can also, whatever, okay.
11
SPEAKER_01
Anyway, so.
11
SPEAKER_01
Next topic.
11
SPEAKER_02
One other thing she said about it really turned me off.
11
SPEAKER_02
I was like, what are the downsides of Kybella?
11
SPEAKER_02
And she was like, well, you know, there could always be stuff.
11
SPEAKER_02
She s like, but there s really nothing.
11
SPEAKER_02
But what happens is the fat basically, she says like kind of like pockets.
11
SPEAKER_02
So she was like, you might feel bumps.
11
SPEAKER_02
And I was like, oh my God, this is exactly the thing I was worried about.
11
SPEAKER_02
And this is the thing that can go bad.
11
SPEAKER_02
is if those bumps don t dissolve.
11
SPEAKER_02
So then I was like, I gotta get out of here.
11
SPEAKER_02
Give me my new acne skincare routine and I m gone.
11
SPEAKER_01
Give me everything on the shelf.
11
SPEAKER_01
I ll take A to Z on the product.
11
SPEAKER_01
So are you completely off Kybala now?
11
SPEAKER_01
That s it?
11
SPEAKER_02
I m gonna wait.
11
SPEAKER_02
I m not off of it completely, but I m waiting.
11
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
11
SPEAKER_02
That s the update, so I don t have it.
11
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
11
SPEAKER_02
So no need for anyone to comment on my neck.
11
SPEAKER_01
It didn t happen?
11
SPEAKER_02
I didn t get it.
11
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, what if all the posts in the future are like, your neck looks great.
11
SPEAKER_01
Because by the way, this is what I was telling Monica here, right?
11
SPEAKER_01
And I m, not to lead the witness, but I said, do it.
11
SPEAKER_01
Do whatever makes you happy.
11
SPEAKER_01
But I am here to tell you, no one,
11
SPEAKER_01
has looked at your neck and said, oh boy.
11
SPEAKER_01
Well, I haven t, but.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, nor have I. Thank you for.
11
SPEAKER_01
I have seen people s necks and said, oh boy.
11
SPEAKER_01
Sure, some necks you say, oh boy, when you see them.
11
SPEAKER_02
Well.
11
SPEAKER_01
That s not you.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, they probably have more than just a small chin.
11
SPEAKER_01
It s more of men though, would you agree, Erin?
11
SPEAKER_01
I ll be talking to a man, I ll go, wow, his chin goes directly down into his chest.
11
SPEAKER_01
It s just a huge plate of like.
11
SPEAKER_00
Oh, definitely.
11
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, as people get older and heavier.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and like skin sagginess.
11
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_00
See, at least you had the courage to walk out, even though you bought a bunch of stuff.
11
SPEAKER_00
It s kind of impressive.
11
SPEAKER_00
I would have fell for everything.
11
SPEAKER_00
Or I would have just said, fuck it.
11
SPEAKER_01
Get it all.
11
SPEAKER_01
Get everything.
11
SPEAKER_01
Erin and I have a lot of the same patterns.
11
SPEAKER_01
And so that situation, yes, agreed.
11
SPEAKER_01
I would have done everything.
11
SPEAKER_01
And it s motivated by a couple of things, I think.
11
SPEAKER_01
One is like, and this is why we ve invented a coffee called Mike s Coffee, which we ll tell you about.
11
SPEAKER_01
One of them is like, I never want to do the thing I m doing again.
11
SPEAKER_01
Like, I want to get anything done I can get permanently forever.
11
SPEAKER_02
Oh, but nothing s really like that.
11
SPEAKER_01
Well, obviously.
11
SPEAKER_01
This is a defective character.
11
SPEAKER_01
This isn t a virtue of ours.
11
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
11
SPEAKER_01
But I think both of us have this thing where it s like, just do the whole fucking thing, I don t know what the fuck.
11
SPEAKER_01
Because we ve invented a, now we don t have it yet, but we ve invented a coffee soon.
11
SPEAKER_01
Coming soon, Mike s Coffee.
11
SPEAKER_01
And it s for men who hate buying coffee.
11
SPEAKER_01
So first of all, you have to own a truck to buy our coffee.
11
SPEAKER_01
Because you have to come and we sell it in a 55 gallon drum.
11
SPEAKER_00
You need a couple friends as well.
11
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and if you have a work, we d be much happier if you showed up in a work truck to get the coffee.
11
SPEAKER_01
And the coffee works the same as coffee that tastes good.
11
SPEAKER_02
What do you mean?
11
SPEAKER_01
Well, I mean it doesn t taste very good, but you ll never have to buy coffee again.
11
SPEAKER_01
And I think that s gonna be very appealing to a lot of men.
11
SPEAKER_01
Is it pre-brewed?
11
SPEAKER_00
Men will settle.
11
SPEAKER_01
No, it s a 55-gallon drum of ground coffee, and you re gonna go one time for the rest of your life.
11
SPEAKER_01
It s like 500 pounds of coffee.
11
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and then you put that in your kitchen.
11
SPEAKER_02
Okay, so they re also gonna need a big garage or something.
11
SPEAKER_01
A big kitchen.
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, big corner.
11
SPEAKER_02
Oh my God, they can t be married.
11
SPEAKER_00
Big closet.
11
SPEAKER_02
This is for single men.
11
SPEAKER_00
Sure.
11
SPEAKER_02
With a big kitchen.
11
SPEAKER_00
Maybe keep it outside, right outside the door.
11
SPEAKER_00
Does coffee get Michael Rancid?
11
SPEAKER_02
I think it has a lot of properties.
11
SPEAKER_01
No, it s good.
11
SPEAKER_02
Maybe you ll sprinkle some anti-ransit stuff in there.
11
SPEAKER_01
It d be the funniest business, like four years later, we start getting people returning the coffee.
11
SPEAKER_01
It s like, we sold it four years ago, and they finally got a third of the way through, and then it went bad somehow.
11
SPEAKER_01
We re gonna have to think of that legally.
11
SPEAKER_00
Well, you do have to, the recommended way to drink it is boiling, so.
11
SPEAKER_00
Yep, it s best boiled.
11
SPEAKER_02
Oh, so you get out all the bad stuff.
11
SPEAKER_01
Well, I think any rancidness would be boiled away, yes.
11
SPEAKER_01
You would remember this from Michigan.
11
SPEAKER_01
I think you remember, because I think you were annoyed by it.
11
SPEAKER_01
Everyone else was.
11
SPEAKER_01
Erin and I s obsession with hot coffee.
11
SPEAKER_01
Remember when we were at Dairy Queen?
11
SPEAKER_01
We were laughing so hard that the person would have to hand you the coffee with a welding mitt on?
11
SPEAKER_01
Because we want you to boil the coffee and then immediately to the microwave for seven minutes.
11
SPEAKER_01
An extra seven after boiling?
11
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
11
SPEAKER_01
The coffee cannot be hot enough.
11
SPEAKER_02
What s going on?
11
SPEAKER_02
You guys don t have taste buds or something?
11
SPEAKER_02
What do you mean?
11
SPEAKER_02
I don t even get this.
11
SPEAKER_00
Not shocked.
11
SPEAKER_02
No, but I m asking.
11
SPEAKER_00
And even the weirdest thing is I m super sensitive to hot stuff.
11
SPEAKER_02
That s what I m saying.
11
SPEAKER_02
I don t think you guys are not capable of getting scalded.
11
SPEAKER_01
There s just something about it being so piping hot that seems really appealing, but that s how a coffee should pop.
11
SPEAKER_01
Manly.
11
SPEAKER_01
Masculine, you get it.
11
SPEAKER_01
Yes, yes, and same with buying coffee in a 55 gallon jar.
11
SPEAKER_02
You know what s not masculine?
11
SPEAKER_02
Let me tell you.
11
SPEAKER_02
Some man taking a sip of coffee and practically dying because they can t swallow it because it s so hot and scalding their mouth and they re trying to look normal.
11
SPEAKER_02
But he d never let you know.
11
SPEAKER_02
No, you are so stupid if you think
11
SPEAKER_01
Now we can t see what is going on and then we have to act like we don t notice No, Aaron and I would both we d have we d have our glove on our mitt are like flame-retardant mitt and our coffee and we would take a sip then we would look at each other and it would be burning for sure.
11
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, we would never acknowledge it and we would just get it down.
11
SPEAKER_01
Is that some good?
11
SPEAKER_02
Coffee supposed to be scalding too.
11
SPEAKER_01
You don t need the microwave oven
12
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you do have to boil it.
12
SPEAKER_01
You do have to get it at 212.
12
SPEAKER_02
Yes, at least.
12
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I guess to be fair, my tea is at 212.
12
SPEAKER_00
Is it?
12
SPEAKER_02
Because that s how you re supposed to brew tea, that tea, black tea.
12
SPEAKER_00
Also, Mike s coffee isn t the cleanest coffee, so the more you can boil it and get some, there s some bugs in it.
12
SPEAKER_00
It s a 55 gallon drum of coffee.
12
SPEAKER_01
Stuff happens when you take that humongous lid off.
12
SPEAKER_01
Yes, it s gonna be hard.
12
SPEAKER_02
Why can t you make a good product?
12
SPEAKER_01
This is a good product.
12
SPEAKER_01
It is, because every man in the country will buy one can.
12
SPEAKER_01
And that s it.
12
SPEAKER_00
It s also a weird business strategy, because once we sell one to each man, that s it.
12
SPEAKER_00
The company s over, because it s a lifetime worth of coffee.
12
SPEAKER_00
But the best is the tagline, is that it works the same as coffee that tastes good.
12
SPEAKER_02
All right.
12
SPEAKER_00
Monica s against it.
12
SPEAKER_00
If you happen to be listening and this appeals to you, just let us know in the comments that we re on the right path.
12
SPEAKER_00
We have a second product that you re gonna understand even less.
12
SPEAKER_02
What is it?
12
SPEAKER_00
You wanna hear about it?
12
SPEAKER_02
I m not sure.
12
SPEAKER_00
Bob s paper towel.
12
SPEAKER_02
Oh, you ve already, we ve done this.
12
SPEAKER_02
We cannot revisit Bob s paper towel.
12
SPEAKER_01
Have you done this already?
12
SPEAKER_02
Yes, the two of you have talked about this.
12
SPEAKER_00
Oh my god.
12
SPEAKER_02
Thank God the actual product that you guys made, I m shocked, is good.
12
SPEAKER_00
I know, it s phenomenal.
12
SPEAKER_00
Thank God.
12
SPEAKER_00
We re more shocked than you, to be honest, because we would drink anything if it was in something we created.
12
SPEAKER_00
But I want to defend ourselves and say, it s a little different, Monica, than just straight masculinity.
12
SPEAKER_00
What it is, is it s about the working man.
12
SPEAKER_00
It s way more about a work truck, and your tools, and your coffee, and your paper towel.
12
SPEAKER_00
It s about an honest day s work, and it s about sweating for a living.
12
SPEAKER_01
And it s about most working men at our age have a little blood in their urine, have a lot of... So it s like a lean-in to that?
12
SPEAKER_01
Well, yeah, you gotta clean up some messes, you know?
12
SPEAKER_01
Not your average paper towel isn t gonna soak all that up.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, we have to pee too often.
12
SPEAKER_00
You re constantly in your work truck and you can t find a bathroom and you don t want to pee in public because now that would be hyper-masculine, toxic masculinity.
12
SPEAKER_00
Just get out and pee anywhere.
12
SPEAKER_00
No.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you want to pee in your vehicle.
12
SPEAKER_01
and just lie near a little can or cup full of Mike s bath paper towel.
12
SPEAKER_01
It s confusing.
12
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, you guys are such mixed messages.
12
SPEAKER_02
It s like you re gonna go into my dermatologist and get every single facial surgery possible.
12
SPEAKER_00
Come out new man.
12
SPEAKER_02
Yet you re about the working man.
12
SPEAKER_00
We are, that s who we are at our core.
12
SPEAKER_02
We d be so embarrassed by the surgeries.
12
SPEAKER_00
Well, one thing that is serious, can I hit you with one serious thing?
12
SPEAKER_00
So those are two fake products, but we have a real product, Ted Secrets.
12
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
12
SPEAKER_00
And we have a community pledge that will be written up and it ll be on that website.
12
SPEAKER_00
But I wouldn t mind saying it here verbally, which is we have a community pledge and a customer pledge that we are going to dedicate 10% of all profits to a race boat team and fuel costs.
12
SPEAKER_00
What?
12
SPEAKER_00
That s true.
12
SPEAKER_02
That s really bad.
12
SPEAKER_02
You cannot do that.
12
SPEAKER_00
We commit.
12
SPEAKER_00
We pledge.
12
SPEAKER_00
that 10% of all province will go to fund a future Ted Seeger s race boat team.
12
SPEAKER_00
And fuel.
12
SPEAKER_00
And fuel costs.
12
SPEAKER_00
And transportation costs, because you gotta get those boats to the races.
12
SPEAKER_02
He just lost a customer.
12
SPEAKER_02
Anywho.
12
SPEAKER_00
You lost a customer.
12
SPEAKER_02
I think you lost a few, but you definitely lost one.
12
SPEAKER_00
We lost three and gained one, that s a win for us.
12
SPEAKER_01
We ll make it up in our coffee and paper, though.
12
SPEAKER_00
Can I send you a picture of the race boat?
12
SPEAKER_02
I think you ve shown me.
12
SPEAKER_00
It is pretty amazing.
12
SPEAKER_00
I showed you already?
12
SPEAKER_02
Oh no, you showed me the blimp or something.
12
SPEAKER_00
The blimp?
12
SPEAKER_00
No, the seaplane.
12
SPEAKER_02
Oh, I m sorry.
12
SPEAKER_00
That s another commitment we have to our community.
12
SPEAKER_00
First of all, there is no money.
12
SPEAKER_00
Let s just start there.
12
SPEAKER_00
This endeavor is losing money.
12
SPEAKER_00
So there s no money.
12
SPEAKER_00
OK?
12
SPEAKER_00
I think it started with, we re not turning a profit.
12
SPEAKER_01
So we can at least say it right now.
12
SPEAKER_00
But in the future, when we do turn a profit, which is going to happen, at that point when we re profitable, we are going to, for our community,
12
SPEAKER_00
invest in a race boat team.
12
SPEAKER_00
Look at your phone, if you will.
12
SPEAKER_00
And then ultimately, you re right, the long-term goal is to have a seaplane, which you already know.
12
SPEAKER_00
But which is really funny, because it has us very committed to waterways, both by the water racing, and we can only travel to places that have a big river or a lake to land on.
12
SPEAKER_01
We don t have anything that doesn t involve us.
12
SPEAKER_00
Terrestrial.
12
SPEAKER_00
Nothing on terra firma.
12
SPEAKER_00
How sexy is that boat though?
12
SPEAKER_00
Did you look at it?
12
SPEAKER_02
It s nice.
12
SPEAKER_00
Oh, okay.
12
SPEAKER_00
Thank you.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s nice.
12
SPEAKER_02
It looks pretty.
12
SPEAKER_00
It s hard to argue that it s a good look.
12
SPEAKER_00
It s a hydroplane.
12
SPEAKER_02
It does look really nice.
12
SPEAKER_02
So how much did it cost to get this mocked up?
12
SPEAKER_00
Well, this is a great story because people do think we have like a bunch of money.
12
SPEAKER_00
The company Ted Seegers does not have a bunch of money and we spend more than we take in.
12
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
12
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
12
SPEAKER_00
So, um, anyways, Aaron, Aaron, you got the email, so.
12
SPEAKER_00
Take it away.
12
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, well, it boils down to people want us to advertise and spend money with them, of course.
12
SPEAKER_01
Now people have gotten to the point where they re mocking things up for us.
12
SPEAKER_01
So that boat, I can t, first of all, Dax and I can t even imagine making it more perfect than what they did.
12
SPEAKER_00
It does look really good.
12
SPEAKER_00
I know.
12
SPEAKER_00
It looks really nice.
12
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, they re good.
12
SPEAKER_01
So I was telling him though, in the email, it said, here s what we can do for you.
12
SPEAKER_01
Fantastic.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
12
SPEAKER_00
Stick her up the whole boat paying it.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
12
SPEAKER_00
It s a, but I just want to say too, it s a hydroplane boat, the kind with the jet engine.
12
SPEAKER_00
Right.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
12
SPEAKER_00
Uh, the highest form of racing.
12
SPEAKER_01
The catch is for us to sticker up that boat for a race.
12
SPEAKER_01
A race, Monica.
12
SPEAKER_01
It s a 400 grand.
12
SPEAKER_01
Oh my God.
12
SPEAKER_01
And we were, so this led us to start talking because as cool as that is, we re like, wait a second, how do we make our money back?
12
SPEAKER_01
Like who s watching this?
12
SPEAKER_00
Who s buying Ted Seeger s because of this.
12
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I don t know how many people are on the shore of those races.
12
SPEAKER_00
Like, I don t know, maybe 5,000 cause you can t see it.
12
SPEAKER_01
So really break it down about 700 miles an hour.
12
SPEAKER_00
So you re really paying at 400 grand for five, you re paying like several hundred dollars per person who saw it.
12
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I don t think that s the smartest way to go about it.
12
SPEAKER_00
Well, we re gonna go for it anyways, but we just decided it d be much cheaper.
12
SPEAKER_02
You re gonna go for it?
12
SPEAKER_00
Well, we don t have any money, so literally we can t do that.
12
SPEAKER_00
But instead of us spending 400 grand to race to sponsor someone else s boat,
12
SPEAKER_00
we will take 10% of the profit as committed and as pledged, and we will buy our own race boat.
12
SPEAKER_02
Why don t you just sticker up your house?
12
SPEAKER_00
Okay, you got it.
12
SPEAKER_02
You re already built a house.
12
SPEAKER_00
Well, that is true.
12
SPEAKER_00
So my wagon that s almost done being built is gonna be the very first
12
SPEAKER_00
Vehicle in the race fleet for Ted Seeger.
12
SPEAKER_00
So my 1980 Mercury Zephyr station wagon is already I got it painted white the same color as the can and then on the hood I m gonna have the Ted head put on the hood and on the back.
12
SPEAKER_00
It s gonna say in red Ted Seeger s racing That ll be our first vehicle.
12
SPEAKER_02
That s cool.
12
SPEAKER_00
And you re right.
12
SPEAKER_00
That ll have been my money.
12
SPEAKER_00
I
12
SPEAKER_02
Do you want me to put a bumper sticker on my Prius?
12
SPEAKER_00
Oh, yeah, that would be great.
12
SPEAKER_02
I ll do that.
12
SPEAKER_00
Well, we already have the cute little round stickers.
12
SPEAKER_00
Maybe you could start there.
12
SPEAKER_02
I ll start there.
12
SPEAKER_00
And put it on your window, because I don t want you to have to scrape it off at any point and ruin your paint.
12
SPEAKER_00
Just put maybe on your window.
12
SPEAKER_02
Well, I m not gonna put it on my Mercedes.
12
SPEAKER_00
No, that s fine, yeah.
12
SPEAKER_00
It s not a match.
12
SPEAKER_02
Exactly, branding-wise, it doesn t really go.
12
SPEAKER_01
I mean, the Prius isn t a great match either, but we ll live with that.
12
SPEAKER_01
I have it on the Durango.
12
SPEAKER_01
That s perfect.
12
SPEAKER_02
That s a good match.
12
SPEAKER_01
But yeah, I wouldn t put it on the Mercedes.
12
SPEAKER_02
It s just so pretty, you know?
12
SPEAKER_00
Also, the Mercedes is very, very highbrow.
12
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
12
SPEAKER_00
And 10 Seekers is for a man or a woman.
12
SPEAKER_00
A working man.
12
SPEAKER_00
Well, no, a man or a woman who puts in an honest day s work.
12
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, no.
12
SPEAKER_00
What are you considering?
12
SPEAKER_02
At a construction site.
12
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
12
SPEAKER_02
I m like, what are you considering an honest day s work?
12
SPEAKER_02
Do you consider what we do an honest day s work?
12
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely not.
12
SPEAKER_00
I don t think anyone in America would consider what we do as an honest day s work.
12
SPEAKER_02
It s time consuming as all hell.
12
SPEAKER_00
It is.
12
SPEAKER_00
But do you think anyone in America, if you asked anyone in America, like what we do, is that an honest day s work?
12
SPEAKER_00
And you couldn t find one person that would say yes.
12
SPEAKER_02
I think it is.
12
SPEAKER_02
It s very honest.
12
SPEAKER_02
We re very honest on here.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it gets confusing.
12
SPEAKER_02
It s actually literally an honest day s work.
12
SPEAKER_00
That s fair.
12
SPEAKER_00
When you explain it to people, maybe they would change their mind, but just the notion of sitting on a couch and shooting the shit, is that an honest day s work?
12
SPEAKER_02
Why is that?
12
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
12
SPEAKER_00
You mad about that?
12
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
13
SPEAKER_01
Look, if I was shingling all day long, like 12 hours a day, and I had bundles on my shoulder, I was climbing a ladder, and you said to me, I hang on this couch in the air conditioning, I chat for a few hours, is that an honest day s work?
13
SPEAKER_00
And then I do a lot more.
13
SPEAKER_01
You gotta have some.
13
SPEAKER_00
Then we ve never had someone on here who s had an honest day s work, or who does an honest day s work.
13
SPEAKER_00
And probably none of our listeners do.
13
SPEAKER_01
True, but I think a lot of the people that were on here did previously have Honest Day s work, as did you.
13
SPEAKER_01
You ve had lots of Honest Day s work.
13
SPEAKER_01
How about this?
13
SPEAKER_01
Could we do a hierarchy of the most Honest Day work?
13
SPEAKER_01
Which is like, you re sweating and you re using your body.
13
SPEAKER_01
as much as you can to exert force on this object.
13
SPEAKER_01
Like manual labor.
13
SPEAKER_01
Manual labor, that s gotta be the most honest, like farming is the most honest.
13
SPEAKER_00
But that s so gendered.
13
SPEAKER_00
It s like, it s very problematic, actually, to say that that s the idea of real work, because women don t do that.
13
SPEAKER_00
They do.
13
SPEAKER_01
They ve always been in the farming fields.
13
SPEAKER_01
I would say that s probably the most honest day s work is farming.
13
SPEAKER_00
I m talking about, what you re talking about currently, you re probably not talking about farming.
13
SPEAKER_01
Well, I m telling you, I do think farming is the most honest day s work someone could do.
13
SPEAKER_02
I say we leave the honest day s work to the paper towel and the coffee drinkers.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
13
SPEAKER_01
Ted Seegers is actually not for people who... Yeah, better not be.
13
SPEAKER_00
I feel like most people who... Yeah, okay.
13
SPEAKER_00
Talk to me.
13
SPEAKER_00
No, I was gonna say most people who do what you re saying is an honest day s work are not gonna be drinking any beer.
13
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s interesting.
13
SPEAKER_00
They re gonna be drinking beer with alcohol.
13
SPEAKER_01
Well, there s a lot of sober people that are doing honest day s work that are in AA.
13
SPEAKER_01
Like they ve had to go to AA.
13
SPEAKER_00
Like in your meeting?
13
SPEAKER_01
Not in, oh man.
13
SPEAKER_01
That s why I m saying we don t know anyone who s doing this.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yes, not the meeting in my friend s living room.
13
SPEAKER_01
You re asking of whether people who do honest days of works are sober or not.
13
SPEAKER_01
For sure.
13
SPEAKER_00
I m sure there are.
13
SPEAKER_00
I would say most likely they re probably drinking beer with alcohol.
13
SPEAKER_02
Well, when I was doing Honest Day s work, there was nobody sober.
13
SPEAKER_00
Right, thank you, yeah.
13
SPEAKER_01
We were doing some really good drinking back when we were doing Honest Day s work.
13
SPEAKER_01
That s my whole point.
13
SPEAKER_01
The drinking is real rewarding.
13
SPEAKER_00
It lends itself to an Honest Day s work.
13
SPEAKER_01
Well, that is the reward of an Honest Day s work, is that drink tastes so much better.
13
SPEAKER_01
Like, when I would get off of filming and have a drink in New Zealand,
13
SPEAKER_01
It wasn t the same as when we d get done fucking cleaning out the slaughterhouse.
13
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s the reward for the shitty.
13
SPEAKER_01
Those MGDs were just.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, those.
13
SPEAKER_01
Wonderful.
13
SPEAKER_02
As good as they get.
13
SPEAKER_02
But you did call me, one of us called each other, when we first got some Ted Seegers made, you did something,
13
SPEAKER_02
I think building the little pavilion with Lincoln.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yes, you built something.
13
SPEAKER_02
You had a real good sweaty day, and then you crack the cold cigars so it can be done with N.A.
13
SPEAKER_02
beer.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it takes six times better than when I ve had it just to have it around the house.
13
SPEAKER_01
Like it really goes up exponentially when you ve been sweating.
13
SPEAKER_00
No, I think that s right.
13
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
13
SPEAKER_01
Or barbecuing.
13
SPEAKER_02
I just had one because I was playing pickleball with Perfect Ten Charlie.
13
SPEAKER_00
Oh, you were?
13
SPEAKER_00
How was it?
13
SPEAKER_02
Fantastic.
13
SPEAKER_00
I really want to learn.
13
SPEAKER_00
Unlike Dax, who does not want to learn, I do want to learn.
13
SPEAKER_01
I m there.
13
SPEAKER_00
Oh, now he wants to learn.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I m in.
13
SPEAKER_01
In fact, if we can find a minute, I m going to play with Aaron while he s here.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I brought a couple paddles with me, because I thought, dad s gonna play, it s gonna be cool with me.
13
SPEAKER_01
There s a win for both parties in this.
13
SPEAKER_01
So one is, Aaron and Charlie just played.
13
SPEAKER_01
Charlie s just barely ever played.
13
SPEAKER_01
I think he s only played.
13
SPEAKER_02
He said he played six times.
13
SPEAKER_01
Six times, yeah.
13
SPEAKER_01
And Aaron can see that he s already gonna be great at it.
13
SPEAKER_01
He is a college level athlete.
13
SPEAKER_01
So that s a win for Charlie.
13
SPEAKER_01
Now, what I also like is that Aaron mopped him up, because Aaron is a tremendous pickleball player.
13
SPEAKER_01
Oh, yeah.
13
SPEAKER_02
He said, yes, not to mention it, but I ll mention it.
13
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
13
SPEAKER_02
I kicked his asshole fucking apart.
13
SPEAKER_00
But you were an athlete as well.
13
SPEAKER_00
A crazy athlete.
13
SPEAKER_00
And he played pickleball nonstop.
13
SPEAKER_02
And he played, yeah.
13
SPEAKER_01
No, he would, if we played for a week together, he d probably.
13
SPEAKER_00
I don t know about that.
13
SPEAKER_01
But it s really funny, because I have a type.
13
SPEAKER_01
The man I hang out with most frequently in life probably is Charlie.
13
SPEAKER_01
And he too is just athletically so superior to me.
13
SPEAKER_01
It s interesting, I like that dynamic.
13
SPEAKER_01
I like to feel unathletic around my good friends.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I don t know how that works for you.
13
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
13
SPEAKER_02
It doesn t make much sense.
13
SPEAKER_01
You know what it probably is, is because I grew up with a brother five years older than me that was infinitely better at everything than me.
13
SPEAKER_01
And I don t know, maybe something feels familiar about it.
13
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, maybe.
13
SPEAKER_01
But what s really fun is when I get to be on either of their teams, like playing volleyball with Charlie on the same team, or Aaron, it s really fun.
13
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
13
SPEAKER_00
Okay, should we do a couple facts?
13
SPEAKER_01
You too, Monica.
13
SPEAKER_01
First, you have elite muscle mass.
13
SPEAKER_00
Thank you, yes.
13
SPEAKER_01
And you re a state champion.
13
SPEAKER_00
I am.
13
SPEAKER_01
You have much greater accolades than me.
13
SPEAKER_00
But you ve never seen it.
13
SPEAKER_01
I ve watched videos.
13
SPEAKER_00
Well yeah, I know, but it s not that I m like, you know, showing you up.
13
SPEAKER_01
Taunting me.
13
SPEAKER_01
I m not.
13
SPEAKER_01
But again, it is the pattern.
13
SPEAKER_00
It s true, you re right.
13
SPEAKER_00
This is a good time for you to be here, Aaron, because this is a memory episode.
13
SPEAKER_01
Oh right, we talked about us.
13
SPEAKER_00
You guys have memories together.
13
SPEAKER_00
And we did bring it up, how you guys have shared.
13
SPEAKER_01
We always have the same memory, which is.
13
SPEAKER_00
You repeat the memory in a similar way.
13
SPEAKER_01
Right, right.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, because with my family, it s not that.
13
SPEAKER_01
Almost consistently, my family and I all remember things differently.
13
SPEAKER_01
Right.
13
SPEAKER_01
Which I think is the most common.
13
SPEAKER_01
Most people s memories do not match up.
13
SPEAKER_01
But what is really weird, I think, about your and I s memory, and then Monica had a theory, which is probably right.
13
SPEAKER_01
As we have told these stories so many times together, it really helps.
13
SPEAKER_00
You just finesse the story together.
13
SPEAKER_00
That s a lot of friendships.
13
SPEAKER_00
And friendships, when you have shared memories, it s about the telling of it so it s the same.
13
SPEAKER_00
Unless it s something you guys both have never talked about, then you re revisiting.
13
SPEAKER_01
But there is this curious aspect of most relationships, which in general, if you hear a husband and wife tell a story, they re constantly going, no, no, we left the day before.
13
SPEAKER_01
Like couples correct each other nonstop.
13
SPEAKER_01
Don t you think that s the pattern?
13
SPEAKER_00
They do, but I think couples, and maybe this is sad, but I think couples do less of a combined story.
13
SPEAKER_00
You and Kristen do actually a lot of combined storytelling, but most people don t.
13
SPEAKER_00
I don t really notice some of our other friends as a couple presenting a story, and they re back and forth telling it, like you do with the friend thing.
13
SPEAKER_01
That s curious, yeah.
13
SPEAKER_01
Most often I hear couples going like, no, they re always correcting each other.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I can see that too.
13
SPEAKER_01
I know people do that.
13
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s interesting, I don t know.
13
SPEAKER_00
Anyhow, okay, so was Ritalin a thing in the 70s?
13
SPEAKER_00
It was FDA approved in 1955.
13
55.
13
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
13
SPEAKER_01
This was the heyday of pharmaceutical amphetamines, because this is when dexedrine and all these, quote, housewife drugs were invented.
13
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, but it says the explosion of Ritalin happened in 1991.
13
SPEAKER_01
I became aware of it in probably 97 or 8.
13
SPEAKER_00
Oh, it says actually that Prozac, they believe Prozac sort of paved the way for it.
13
SPEAKER_01
Oh, really?
13
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
13
SPEAKER_00
Because that s not a... It said it became more acceptable and easier to take a psychiatric drug, Prozac, so then... Shifted the... Mindset.
13
SPEAKER_01
But then Super Ritalin came out, Adderall.
13
SPEAKER_01
And I think most people are prescribed Adderall now, which is like infinitely stronger.
13
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, or like Viabands or whatever.
13
SPEAKER_00
Ooh, what s Viabands?
13
SPEAKER_00
Viabands.
13
SPEAKER_00
Viabands.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
13
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, people like that.
13
SPEAKER_00
Don t learn about it.
13
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
13
SPEAKER_01
Viabands sounds like it would be a Benzo though, but whatever.
13
SPEAKER_01
Wait, hold on.
13
SPEAKER_01
Viabands.
13
SPEAKER_01
Is it upper or downer?
13
SPEAKER_00
I think it s like Adderall, right?
13
SPEAKER_01
No, it is a benzo, you re right.
13
SPEAKER_01
Oh, because the girl on my- Most ands are benzos.
13
SPEAKER_00
Oh.
13
SPEAKER_00
Prescription medicine used for treating ADHD.
13
SPEAKER_01
Oh, well then it probably is a stimulant.
13
SPEAKER_00
It s amphetamine.
13
SPEAKER_01
Oh, you re talking about Ritalin.
13
SPEAKER_01
I thought you would just look at- No, Vyvanse.
13
SPEAKER_00
Oh, Vyvanse.
13
SPEAKER_01
Oh, okay, all right.
13
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
13
SPEAKER_01
I can see like a benzo addict rifling through someone s cabinets.
13
SPEAKER_01
in their bathroom and seeing that, like Ativan, like Ativan is a Benzo, and thinking like, oh great, and then getting all jacked up.
13
SPEAKER_02
Why did I think it was Xanax?
13
SPEAKER_01
Probably because of Ativan.
13
SPEAKER_00
I was prescribed Ativan.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and it worked for you.
13
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I mean I would take it very sporadically.
13
SPEAKER_00
I don t really like it though.
13
SPEAKER_01
Well, it s almost hard to evaluate cause you re taking it when you re really struggling.
13
SPEAKER_01
So it s probably a weird associate.
13
SPEAKER_01
I was taking it when I wanted to have a good time.
13
SPEAKER_01
Sure.
13
SPEAKER_01
Not, not, not Benzos.
13
SPEAKER_01
Um, stimulants.
13
SPEAKER_00
Oh, right.
13
SPEAKER_00
Well, I ve never taken that.
13
SPEAKER_00
Um, I ve never taken like Adderall.
14
SPEAKER_00
I think that would make me feel so bad.
14
SPEAKER_00
It took me a while to get used to caffeine.
14
SPEAKER_00
I don t think I would do well on that.
14
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
14
SPEAKER_00
Oh, can ADHD affect hand-eye coordination?
14
SPEAKER_00
Poor motor coordination or motor performance is another common coexisting difficulty in children with ADHD, though it has received less attention and research.
14
SPEAKER_00
Children with ADHD who experience motor difficulties often display deficits in tasks requiring coordination of complex movements such as handwriting.
14
SPEAKER_01
Well, I have shitty ass handwriting, that s for sure.
14
SPEAKER_00
But you don t have a hand-eye coordination problem.
14
SPEAKER_01
I don t think so.
14
SPEAKER_01
It s not like Aaron s or Charlie s, that s for the uncertain.
14
SPEAKER_01
But I don t think it s under-indexing.
14
SPEAKER_02
No, yours is fine, except for maybe your eyes are affecting it lately.
14
SPEAKER_01
Aaron and I were bonding over our declining eyes.
14
SPEAKER_00
Welcome to the club.
14
SPEAKER_00
It s kind of fun.
14
SPEAKER_01
Well, you ve had it long enough that you re like total acceptance mode.
14
SPEAKER_01
I m still like, where is this going?
14
SPEAKER_01
Am I going to be blind in two years?
14
SPEAKER_01
Cause it s just like, it feels like it s falling off a cliff and it s why would it ever stop?
14
SPEAKER_00
Sure.
14
SPEAKER_00
But as we learned in this episode, you can choose how you perceive the world and you can choose to see it as
14
SPEAKER_00
Everything s just a little cloudy in a great way.
14
SPEAKER_00
When things are too sharp, when I first got my glasses, I hated it.
14
SPEAKER_00
I was like, everyone looks a little uglier.
14
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I look uglier and everyone else does a little bit too.
14
SPEAKER_01
It s like the proverbial lights going on in the bar.
14
SPEAKER_01
I m so glad I never have to experience that again.
14
SPEAKER_01
It s cruel.
14
SPEAKER_01
I guess people just won t leave unless they do that.
14
SPEAKER_01
But they should let everyone leave in the dark.
14
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, then people still don t leave.
14
SPEAKER_01
They don t leave, even with those lights on.
14
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that was my experience.
14
SPEAKER_01
Would you do that when you owned a bar?
14
SPEAKER_01
Would you turn the lights on?
14
SPEAKER_02
Oh yeah, yeah, music off, lights all on.
14
SPEAKER_02
Tell everyone, get the fuck out of there.
14
SPEAKER_01
Terrible feeling just hearing that.
14
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s rough.
14
SPEAKER_01
PTSD.
14
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so he broke his arm before he came.
14
SPEAKER_01
Broke it in half, broke his humerus, had to get a rod.
14
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and you said you thought that was the second biggest bone in the body.
14
SPEAKER_01
I do, I stand by that.
14
SPEAKER_00
It goes the femur, the tibia, and the fibula.
14
SPEAKER_01
No kidding.
14
SPEAKER_01
I wonder if we re going length or girth.
14
SPEAKER_01
Length makes sense.
14
SPEAKER_00
The largest three bones of the body are the long bones of the thigh, the shin, and the lower leg.
14
SPEAKER_01
I accept that.
14
SPEAKER_01
I accept.
14
SPEAKER_01
Shout out while you re looking at your next fact to MotoGP.
14
SPEAKER_01
Aaron, who s not even interested in it, I forced him to watch two races this weekend.
14
SPEAKER_01
We were screaming last night watching the race.
14
SPEAKER_01
Oh, exciting.
14
SPEAKER_01
I loved it.
14
SPEAKER_01
I wish I could just watch them with you.
14
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
14
SPEAKER_01
Maybe we should FaceTime each other or something.
14
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so I mentioned that there was an episode of Malcolm Gladwell s show about hoarding and memory, and that is called Dragon Psychology 101.
14
SPEAKER_00
It s a revisionist history episode.
14
SPEAKER_00
So feel free to listen to that and learn about hoarding.
14
SPEAKER_00
It was a really good episode.
14
SPEAKER_00
That s it.
14
SPEAKER_01
That s all.
14
SPEAKER_00
That s all.
14
SPEAKER_01
I really liked him a lot, just side note.
14
SPEAKER_00
Me too.
14
SPEAKER_00
He was so fun.
14
SPEAKER_00
And smart, and memory s so fascinating.
14
SPEAKER_01
He was a professor at UC Davis, and he s in a punk band.
14
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
14
SPEAKER_01
And he broke his arm skateboarding, and he s my age.
14
SPEAKER_00
And he s in a neuroscience punk band called Pavlov s Dog.
14
SPEAKER_01
Neuroscience punk band.
14
SPEAKER_01
Everyone in the band s a neuroscientist.
14
SPEAKER_00
Oh my God, I love that.
14
SPEAKER_02
Isn t that great?
14
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, he s phenomenal.
14
SPEAKER_01
Can t wait to listen.
14
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s a kind of heady episode.
14
SPEAKER_00
When I was listening back, I was like, it s a bit heady, but it s really interesting.
14
SPEAKER_01
It was a dense one.
14
SPEAKER_01
It was one of the most dense ones we ve done in a while.
14
SPEAKER_00
There s a lot to learn.
14
SPEAKER_01
Can I send you one more picture?
14
SPEAKER_01
Speaking of punk rock, Aaron just sent this to me.
14
SPEAKER_00
This is a picture of Dax at a punk show.
14
SPEAKER_00
Wow, how old are you here?
14
17.
14
SPEAKER_02
Wow.
14
SPEAKER_02
Now, can I tell you, here s what I told Dax about it.
14
SPEAKER_02
I was like, I thought he looked so cool.
14
SPEAKER_02
And I was like, it looks like there s like a lot of Brylcreem maybe, like oil in his hair.
14
SPEAKER_02
But it s like super shiny and blonde.
14
SPEAKER_00
It is shiny.
14
SPEAKER_02
And it s bleached white.
14
SPEAKER_02
Really fucking cool looking.
14
SPEAKER_02
And then look at the little guy next to him.
14
SPEAKER_02
Doesn t he look like Michael J. Fox?
14
SPEAKER_02
Or is that just me?
14
SPEAKER_02
He does.
14
SPEAKER_00
I can see that.
14
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
14
SPEAKER_02
I remember that kid.
14
SPEAKER_00
You remember?
14
SPEAKER_02
I kind of remember him too.
14
SPEAKER_01
He was at all the shows.
14
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
14
SPEAKER_00
The one behind him with the cowboy hat also looks like- Oh, do you know who that is?
14
SPEAKER_01
That s Gowatch.
14
SPEAKER_01
That s Aaron Gowatch.
14
SPEAKER_01
Have you met him over here?
14
SPEAKER_01
He s still our friend.
14
SPEAKER_00
I don t know if I ve met him.
14
SPEAKER_01
He s so cute.
14
SPEAKER_00
But Aaron, you re not in this picture, right?
14
SPEAKER_02
No, that s my baseball hat behind the white baseball hat.
14
SPEAKER_02
But yeah, no, I m not.
14
SPEAKER_01
And then Tyrell is just behind me with the glasses.
14
SPEAKER_01
Half a face with the glasses sticking out.
14
SPEAKER_01
Oh, wow.
14
SPEAKER_00
Oh, my God, fun.
14
SPEAKER_01
Future founders of Ted Seegers with a commitment to our community.
14
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, right.
14
SPEAKER_00
Wow, how cute.
14
SPEAKER_00
Very fun.
14
SPEAKER_00
Fun blast from the past.
14
SPEAKER_01
Good old days.
14
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
14
SPEAKER_00
All right.
14
SPEAKER_00
All right.
14
SPEAKER_00
Love you.
14
SPEAKER_00
Well, it s lovely to have you per usual.
14
SPEAKER_02
Hell yes, I m so happy to be here.
14
SPEAKER_02
Bye.
14
SPEAKER_02
Night, night.
14
SPEAKER_02
Bye.
14
you