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 This is episode number 1,236 with Esther Perel.
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Welcome to the School of Greatness.
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My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur.
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And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness.
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Thanks for spending some time with me today.
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Now let the class begin.
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 Over the years, I have had the pleasure of sitting down with psychotherapist and New York Times bestselling author, Esther Perel.
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She is recognized as one of today's most insightful voices on modern relationships.
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And today I wanted to put together a collection of some of the most powerful moments over the years of having her on the show that have really transformed people's lives in their relationships.
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So this is a masterclass on that topic.
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 In this episode, we discuss the biggest obstacles people face in their relationships and what most people get wrong when they are dating, why even some of the happiest people sometimes cheat in relationships, how to build trust even when you've lost it with your partner, the expectations you should be setting in your relationships in the beginning and in the middle,
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 And so much more.
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And this is an inspiring topic for me because I have struggled in relationships in the past.
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I've done my own therapy.
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I've done a lot of work on myself.
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And it's a beautiful thing to be able to learn this information, put it into place and create peace within a relationship now.
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And so I really hope that you find the value from this as much as I have found the value from implementing these strategies in my own life and in my relationships.
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 So if you're inspired by this at any moment, make sure to spread this message, pay the message forward, share with a few friends, text them, post it on social media, make sure to tag me and Esther Perel as well over on social media.
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I'm so excited about this episode.
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And if you find inspiration from this as well, or helpful at any moment, make sure to spread this message with a few friends, text some people, post it on social media, and make sure to tag me, Lewis Howes, and Esther Perel as well when you're sharing on social media.
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 And if you are new here, make sure to click the subscribe button over on Apple podcasts or Spotify right now, so you can stay up to date on the latest and greatest on the School of Greatness podcast.
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Okay.
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In just a moment, the one and only Esther Perel.
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In this first section, Esther details the biggest obstacles people have to face in relationships.
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Let's dive in.
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 What are the core reasons or the core things you see over and over that either end or make a relationship challenging to be in the longer you're in?
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What are the challenges that come up over and over that you see?
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 So there's always three questions, right?
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What's a thriving relationship?
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A thriving one.
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Yeah, what can go wrong?
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And how do you fix it?
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So you started with the middle question, what goes wrong?
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I think there's a number of things in a relationship that become the kind of cornerstones of the demise, okay?
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And I'm not gonna list them in order, but they all are part of each other.
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 Indifference, and contempt, and neglect, and violence are probably the four most important.
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I'm not talking about big violence.
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Microaggressions are plenty.
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Indifference, when you start to feel like the other person fundamentally is not really caring about you anymore, or you don't care about them.
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What they feel, what they think, who they are, what they're about.
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You just don't care.
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You've lost interest.
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 But it's more than losing of interest.
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It's also when you are doing different, you degrade the other person.
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They're less important to you.
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They don't matter.
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And ultimately what we feel in relationships is that we matter.
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That is the essential reason for connecting to people is that we are creatures of meaning.
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I matter to you.
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I'm someone.
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 you care about me, you want my well-being, you're proud of me, you want good for me, you're benevolent, all of that.
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When you are indifferent, the whole thing goes.
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And then you start, there's that coldness that creeps in, that sense of estrangement, that complete disconnect, that.
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The second one is neglect.
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Neglect, when people just basically take each other for granted.
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 They take more care of their car than of their partner.
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Or their dog.
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Or their dog, anybody, anything.
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Their yard, anything.
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Anything gets attendance.
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Their business.
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Their business for sure.
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Their business for sure.
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Everything gets priority.
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Everything gets reviewed, evaluated, attended to, 360s, you name it.
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New input.
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My God, it's like people have this idea that they put it all in when they were dating,
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 And then once they seal the knot, it's like as if they tied the knot, it's like now they don't have to do squat anymore.
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And they go into this kind of complete sense of complacency and laziness.
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It's an amazing thing.
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They think this thing is just gonna live on its own.
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Like a cactus.
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Violence, violence, the abuse, the level of disrespect.
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I mean, most people talk nicer to anybody else than their partner when a relationship degrades.
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Because you can't get away with it.
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 Because you can't get away with it.
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Because if you talk like this at work, you're gone.
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Because if you talk like this with the police, you're gone.
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Because if you talk like this on the street, you're being punched.
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But with your partner, you have that sense that they're going to be there anyway.
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They're just going to take it because it's family.
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And family is this thing that doesn't deserve.
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So I've actually published data that we can take people with
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 gluten sensitivity and with leaky gut and with antibodies to gluten and
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 over a year period of time, take away the foods that they're sensitive to and heal their leaky gut, seal it up.
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And with the passage of time, those antibodies to the various forms of wheat disappear, disappear.
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They go away.
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It's like,
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 It's like you keep needing a booster shot for COVID.
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You literally lose the antibodies.
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You lose the memory that you were interested in gluten.
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And that's really exciting.
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What does that do to your body when you lose the antibodies to gluten?
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So I think that you can now reintroduce gluten.
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 and get away with it.
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In fact, I've written about this on my personal self.
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Years ago, we started doing autoimmune tests on everybody, including ourselves.
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There's markers for autoimmune disease, like lupus, like Hashimoto's.
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 And so my assistant comes running in she says doc you got lupus and I know I don't have Yeah, you know you have anti-nuclear antibody positive I said, huh that's interesting because my father's side of the family had massive psoriasis, which is an autoimmune disease and He was on methotrexate for 50 years long story short.
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So I
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 So I said, yeah, OK, I've got a very strong family history for an autoimmune disease, and I'm always experimenting with food.
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I said, that's really cool.
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I'm going to try to turn it off.
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And so I went two weeks perfectly following the Plant Paradox program.
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 Measured it two weeks later gone.
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Wow.
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Okay, that's that's good information If you stayed on that track, it would stay probably gone, but it was gone for years But if you went back on the so I decided to test it You know, you gotta experiment on yourself.
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So I was we were editing the longevity paradox in New York City and we I
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 We needed to do some more editing, finished on a Friday and I had to stay over for Monday to keep editing.
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So I said, you know, I got a whole weekend here, I'm gonna test the system.
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So I had pizza, I had bread, I had pasta, I had tomatoes, I had ice cream.
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And so I come back to Palm Springs and I test my anti-nuclear antibody and sure enough, it's positive.
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 Oh, wow, this is great.
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And so I said, I wonder how fast I can turn it off.
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So I went one week, retested, negative.
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So what does that tell me?
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It tells me that I can produce leaky gut in myself, but I can fix it really fast.
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What I've learned from my patients over 22 years is
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 When you've got really leaky gut, it's not gonna fix in a week or two.
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It can take three, six, nine months, a year.
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I have one patient and we just celebrated, it's been a year and a half.
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We're finally done with it.
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And the really cool thing, once you heal a leaky gut, you no longer have particles coming across your gut wall.
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 And 80% of your immune system is sitting lining your gut.
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All of your white blood cells are just there waiting because troublemakers can come through.
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And so if troublemakers are constantly coming through, the immune system is on hyper alert.
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And people hear about cytokine storm in COVID.
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Well, with the immune system hyper alert, they're ready to fire at any little thing.
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 Example I like to use believe it or not 95% of us are born With an antibody to the peanut lectin born with what's it mean when you have an antibody to that?
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So you literally have been Vaccinated this means you can eat the food and it won't affect you will it will affect you so 95% of us have it have an antibody where it will affect us in some way but
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 When I was growing up, every little kid had a peanut butter and jelly sandwich at school.
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There were peanuts on airplanes.
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Yeah, baseball games, you're having peanuts.
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And nobody had a peanut allergy.
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Nobody had EpiPens.
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Now, of course, if some poor little kid brings a snack of peanuts, three EpiPens are coming out and kids are having these tremendous allergic reactions.
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 And you go, wait a minute, why is that?
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Why, you know, my generation didn't have that.
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Never had that.
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That's because back in the good old days, almost nobody had leaky gut.
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And so our immune system.
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Could defend against it.
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No, the immune system goes, yeah, I know that.
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I'm not very interested in that.
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You know, that's not a big deal.
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But now our immune system is walking around with oozies.
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 You know, and anything that looks even remotely worrisome, you're going, okay.
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And that's why all of us, I mean, autoimmune diseases are off the wall.
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60 million women have Hashimoto's thyroiditis in America.
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It's like, huh?
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And you know, when I was in medical school back in the dark ages, I mean, these were incredibly rare diseases.
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 They were so rare that these series of tests looking for autoimmune diseases, we called funny tests because we almost never ordered them.
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Let's get those funny tests.
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But now people use them every week.
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Oh yeah, I get autoimmune tests on every patient and it's shocking how many people have it.
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Okay, so gluten and lectin, so what are the main foods that have the most gluten or the most?
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Well, so wheat, rye, and barley have gluten.
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 Oats have a protein that cross-reacts with gluten.
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And I can't tell you the number of people who are eating oats that they're one of the culprits.
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What if it's when they say gluten-free oats?
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Run.
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 What does that mean when it's gluten-free oats?
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Basically means nothing because there's a protein in oats that isn't gluten But it looks a lot like gluten our immune system can't tell the difference similarly 70% of people who are sensitive to gluten react to corn as if it was gluten and that's why
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 So many patients, and I've written a paper about this, who are gluten-free, eating gluten-free foods, still have leaky gut and autoimmune diseases.
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And when we take away their healthy gluten-free foods like corn, like oats, like quinoa, then their leaky gut goes away and their autoimmune disease goes away.
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What about when you process the almonds or the oats into almond milk or oat milk?
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 Part of the problem with oats is that almost all of our oats in the United States have been sprayed with Roundup.
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And a ton of our organic oats have Roundup on them.
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And Roundup glyphosate,
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 is a major leaky gut disruptor in and of itself.
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So even if it says organic oats, gluten-free organic oat milk.
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No human being ate a grain until 10,000 years ago.
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 No human being ate a grain of rice until 8,000 years ago.
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These didn't exist.
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Human beings used to be as tall as you 10,000 years ago.
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Wow.
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Yeah.
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Then we shrunk down to my size after we started eating grains.
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Really?
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Yeah.
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We shrunk about a foot after agriculture.
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OK.
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Literally shrunk.
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Our brain sizes decreased 15% after the dawn of agriculture.
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Wow.
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 Because of the foods we're eating?
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Because of the foods we're eating, yeah.
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That's fascinating.
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Okay, so... Darn it.
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So when you process it into a milk, you know, what does that mean?
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Is it better?
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Is it worse?
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Is it the same?
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So how does the gut take it in?
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 It really doesn't make any difference.
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It doesn't make any difference.
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For instance, I'll give you a great example.
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Originally, the Plant Paradox program was called The Matrix, after the movie.
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And my editors at HarperCollins thought it was kind of too macho-manly.
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No, not touchy-feely enough.
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True story.
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And so we called it The Plant Paradox, and the rest is history.
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 Originally, almonds were not allowed on the program because I had a ton of people with autoimmune diseases that almonds, they would react to, even almond flour.
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 But the plant paradox, you know, take away a lot of stuff.
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And my editor said, hey, come on, you're a mean guy, you know, give us something, give us something.
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I said, well, almonds, the peel of the almond has the majority of the lectin.
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So I'll tell you what, let's have blanched, peeled almonds like Marcona almonds.
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That's why those people do that.
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And let's give them blanched almond flour.
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Okay, and everybody's happy.
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 So it works for 90% of people who just pick up the plant paradox with an autoimmune disease.
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They resolve their issues without even visiting me.
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But about 10% of people even visiting me, playing by the rules, still they're better.
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We can measure that they're better on their leaky gut, but they're not all the way.
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 And so we do these tests called food sensitivity tests.
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Now that's totally different than food allergy tests.
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Food sensitivity, believe it or not, basically says that if you've got spaces in the wall of your gut that undigested food particles, like let's just use almonds,
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 which would normally be digested into simple sugars, simple fats, simple amino acids and absorbed through the wall.
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Now pieces of food can potentially go across the wall undigested and your immune system says,
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 What the heck?
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I've never seen a piece of broccoli before.
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What's that doing in here?
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That's foreign to me.
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And I'm going to attack it.
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And I'm going to make a memory of what that broccoli looks like.
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And any time I see anything that looks like broccoli, I'm going to attack it.
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So we see these people.
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 who are having almond flour cookies and almond bread.
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Almond milk.
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And almond milk.
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And then we test them for food sensitivity and up comes almonds.
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And I've just got some wonderful story.
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I had this woman with psoriasis, horrible psoriasis, on two drugs.
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 And anyhow, we got rid of all of her psoriasis, got her off of all of her drugs, and she had this two-inch patch of psoriasis in the middle of her back.
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And that's all she had.
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Still left.
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Yeah.
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And she says, look, I'm really happy.
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It's nowhere else.
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No one sees it.
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Who cares?
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But isn't that, and she goes, isn't that interesting that there it is?
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And I said, yeah.
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I said, would you mind if we
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 of food sensitivity and just kind of see if there's a couple things that we ought to get rid of.
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And sure enough, almonds pops up.
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And so she got her results a couple weeks before I saw her.
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And so she comes in and she said, I've got my results.
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And guess what?
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She said, I've given up almonds two weeks ago.
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It's down to an inch.
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It shrunk 50% in two weeks just by getting rid of almonds.
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 And she did that for another two or three weeks?
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Yeah, and then I was gone.
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And then I was gone.
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Wow.
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Isn't that interesting?
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Yeah.
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I think they were food sensitivity or food allergy tests, one of the two.
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Because I had a little patch of psoriasis right here, like a little different skin.
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You know, it was like kind of a raised, a little different patch.
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It wasn't like spreading, but it was a little patch here, and it kind of come and go.
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 And on all these tests I took, they were like, you have no sensitivities, no, like, sensitivities to allergies.
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I'm not sure which one it was.
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They were probably allergy tests.
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We used to do those.
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I never thought they were any good, even though I did them.
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Gotcha.
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Gotcha.
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I never thought I got used to them.
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The sensitivity is better.
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Sensitivity.
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 Anyway, they said that I didn't have any allergies or sensitivities.
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I'm not sure which one it was.
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But a lot of it, what I realized, was based on stress.
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It was based on a lack of sleep and a lot of stress that I was facing, internal emotions that I wasn't able to process, and essentially abandoning myself in certain occasions, which made me kind of feel like I had a heightened immune system, I guess, which I think was the cause of this.
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And stress in itself can actually produce leaky gut.
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 Really?
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Oh yeah.
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I have particularly a number of women who can point literally to the day and hour that their autoimmune started, their leaky gut started.
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A sudden death of a mother, for instance.
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Divorce.
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Yeah, divorce is right up there.
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 So were they still eating like perfectly to, you know, the diet they were supposed to eat?
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But they were like, why do I have this, you know?
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Yeah, I mean, they were eating, quote, a normal diet and they've been fine up until that event.
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And then stress heightened the leak.
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Right.
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And then kind of once you produce that leak,
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 Then your immune gates are yeah, they're open and interesting enough your immune system actually comes up to the border of the wall your gut and you know There's a war going on there.
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And as the war goes on you actually have friendly fire so your own immune system worsens the problem and
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 And so it just perpetuates.
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The other thing we've learned is that viruses are actually really good at making leaky gut.
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And my humble opinion is a lot of the long COVID we're seeing is actually because of leaky gut from COVID.
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COVID loves to attack the mucous membranes of us, including our gut.
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So a lot of people present with COVID with diarrhea, for instance.
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 Mmm, so we've got a gluten lectins wheat rye barley oats the nightshades the nightshades tomatoes peppers Goji berries.
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Wait a minute.
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Goji berries are supposed to be healthy for you, right?
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Goji berries are actually nightshades
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 Darn it.
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They're actually American plants.
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They're called the wolfberry in America.
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And they were taken over to China in trade, in Colombian trade, and they grew extremely well.
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But yeah, goji berries are nitrates.
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And potatoes.
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And potatoes.
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And potatoes.
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Not sweet potatoes.
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Not yams and sweet potatoes.
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Sweet potatoes are fine.
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But potatoes are... And beans.
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But beans you can detoxify really easily.
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 with prolonged soaking, prolonged cooking, but most importantly, a pressure cooker.
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And there's two brands of beans now, I have no relationship, Eden and Jovial, that soak and pressure cook their beans.
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Before they ship, they send it to you.
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Yeah, and you know, people say, well, you know, you hate beans.
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No, I have beans several times a week.
0
SPEAKER_01
There you go.
0
SPEAKER_01
As long as they're pressure cooked.
0
SPEAKER_01
 So what about potatoes?
0
SPEAKER_01
Is there a way to eat potatoes?
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so most of the lectins are in the peel.
0
SPEAKER_01
The skin.
0
SPEAKER_01
The skin.
0
SPEAKER_01
Same with tomatoes and same with peppers.
0
SPEAKER_01
So if you take the skin off the tomatoes... Skin off and deep seed the tomatoes and peppers.
0
SPEAKER_01
Then you can eat them in sauce or...
0
SPEAKER_01
 Exactly.
0
SPEAKER_01
In fact, in Italy, you cannot make tomato sauce without peeling and deseeding tomatoes.
0
SPEAKER_01
You'll never open a jar of Italian red peppers and see peels and seeds because they're gone.
0
SPEAKER_01
You'll never open a can of chili peppers in the United States and see peels and seeds because they're gone.
0
SPEAKER_01
Because the traditional cultures have always known to do this.
0
SPEAKER_01
And how'd they know?
0
SPEAKER_01
Because their mother told them and blah, blah, blah.
0
SPEAKER_01
 And yeah, I mean, the Italians wouldn't eat tomatoes for 200 years after Columbus brought them back.
0
SPEAKER_01
Their native son, because they knew how bad they were for them.
0
SPEAKER_01
In fact, Americans didn't start eating tomatoes until the late 1800s.
0
SPEAKER_01
 because they were believed to be, you know, deadly.
0
SPEAKER_01
Really?
0
SPEAKER_01
And they were part of the deadly Nightshade family.
0
SPEAKER_01
And then this, I've forgotten his last name, I think it's Colonel Mitchell.
0
SPEAKER_01
He wasn't a colonel at all.
0
SPEAKER_01
He stood on this, he put an announcement in the paper in a suburb of Philadelphia that he was going to commit suicide by eating a bushel of tomatoes on the courthouse steps.
0
SPEAKER_01
 And he proceeded to eat a lot of tomatoes and he doesn't die.
0
SPEAKER_01
Seriously.
0
SPEAKER_01
And I actually talked about it in Plant Paradox.
0
SPEAKER_01
And that actually opened the floodgates to Americans eating tomatoes.
0
SPEAKER_01
 They said, okay, he's fine, so we can start eating this.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, look, he didn't die.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yay.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's a myth.
0
SPEAKER_01
But people thought if you eat this, it's going to kill you.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's going to make you really sick.
0
SPEAKER_01
Make you sick.
0
SPEAKER_01
Interesting.
0
SPEAKER_01
And we still have a lot of people who do react with pain to the nightshade family.
0
SPEAKER_02
So potatoes are fine if they're peeled, is what I'm hearing you say.
0
SPEAKER_02
Just don't eat the skin.
0
SPEAKER_01
Or pressure cook them.
0
SPEAKER_01
Or pressure cook.
0
SPEAKER_02
Then they're fine.
0
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
0
SPEAKER_02
Are there any others that you have in mind?
0
SPEAKER_01
 Well, peanuts and cashews.
0
SPEAKER_01
Cashews are actually poison ivy.
0
SPEAKER_01
They're the same plant as poison ivy.
0
SPEAKER_01
And why anybody would want to munch on poison ivy is beyond me.
0
SPEAKER_02
But they taste so good.
0
SPEAKER_01
Well, I agree.
0
SPEAKER_01
I used to love them.
0
SPEAKER_01
But I haven't had a cashew in I don't know how long.
0
SPEAKER_02
 So what do you see when people are eating cashews, when they take the food sensitivity tests, who stop eating cashews?
0
SPEAKER_02
But there's probably a number of foods they're eating that affect them, then they remove them all.
0
SPEAKER_01
Correct.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, we remove them all.
0
SPEAKER_01
And some of them make people cry.
0
SPEAKER_01
 I have an executive high up in one of the social media companies who developed just a devastating painful autoimmune disease and the meds were making him even sicker and long story short, he got referred to me and we did these tests and among other things, he was sensitive to both egg whites and egg yolks.
0
SPEAKER_01
 And so, out he goes.
0
SPEAKER_01
Now, the problem was, this guy lived on omelets.
0
SPEAKER_01
He had an omelet every day of his life.
0
SPEAKER_01
He loved omelets.
0
SPEAKER_01
And he was, I can't do this.
0
SPEAKER_01
I said, look, come on, help me out here.
0
SPEAKER_01
I said, we'll get him back, I promise.
0
SPEAKER_01
We gotta fix the leak.
0
SPEAKER_01
And sure enough, his pain went away.
0
SPEAKER_01
We got him off his meds.
0
SPEAKER_01
So about nine months in, we could measure his leaky gut's getting better and better and better.
0
SPEAKER_01
And he's a happy guy, but he still wants his omelets.
0
SPEAKER_01
So, nine months in.
0
SPEAKER_01
 We retest him and now he can tolerate egg whites, but he's still not good with egg yolks.
0
SPEAKER_01
But now he's a happy guy.
0
SPEAKER_01
He can have an egg white omelet.
0
SPEAKER_01
Here's the best part of this story.
0
SPEAKER_01
So, we go over this data.
0
SPEAKER_01
Two days later, I get a phone call from him.
0
SPEAKER_01
And he says, oh, I'm in such pain.
0
SPEAKER_01
I said, what'd you do?
0
SPEAKER_01
I have an omelet.
0
SPEAKER_01
 Well, I had an omelette for breakfast, an omelette for lunch, an omelette for dinner, and then I just had another omelette.
0
SPEAKER_01
And I'm in such pain.
0
SPEAKER_01
What'd you do that for?
0
SPEAKER_01
I said, you know, you haven't seen this in nine months.
0
SPEAKER_01
You gotta put it in easy.
0
SPEAKER_01
Slowly, yeah.
0
SPEAKER_01
 I got it, yeah, dumb, sorry.
0
SPEAKER_01
The light bulbs went off this morning.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it was dumb.
0
SPEAKER_01
But now he's eating egg yolks.
0
SPEAKER_01
So the really cool thing, the really cool thing is you can retrain the immune system and you can seal leaky gut so that you can have these foods back as long as you take some precautions.
0
SPEAKER_02
 Okay, so what would be some of the alternative foods that we could eat and consume if we got rid of all these?
0
SPEAKER_02
Because it sounds to me I'm just eating broccoli and cauliflower all day.
0
SPEAKER_01
So what are some of the alternatives that are also... I mean, there are great pastas out there made out of cassava flour.
0
SPEAKER_01
I make one at GundryMD made out of sorghum flour.
0
SPEAKER_01
 Again, have no relationship, jovial, makes phenomenal pastas out of cassava flour.
0
SPEAKER_01
Cassava flour.
0
SPEAKER_01
Cassava.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it's like taro root.
0
SPEAKER_01
Oh.
0
SPEAKER_01
And I tell you, I actually, one of the restaurants, Italian restaurants in Montecito keeps, you know, cassava pasta for me, and I just had a big bowl of penne pasta a couple of nights ago.
0
SPEAKER_01
And it doesn't affect your, you don't feel like this.
0
SPEAKER_01
No.
0
SPEAKER_01
 And it's got the mouth.
0
SPEAKER_01
And it's got this mouth feel.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's really good now.
0
SPEAKER_01
It's al dente.
0
SPEAKER_01
So the idea that you have to suffer these things is old school.
0
SPEAKER_01
And I think one of the big benefits of the plant paradox being so popular is that consumers
0
SPEAKER_01
 wanted alternatives and companies rise to the occasion and they're making lots of stuff.
0
SPEAKER_01
There's lots of now pasta sauces, peeled and deseeded tomatoes, you know, again, there's lots of pressure-cooked beans.
0
SPEAKER_01
So it's actually, it's been exciting to watch
0
SPEAKER_01
 These things come about right?
0
SPEAKER_01
What about so what other foods we got the cassava flour pasta?
0
SPEAKER_02
What about I mean?
0
SPEAKER_02
So there's actually
3
SPEAKER_00
 I used to hold the longest record for a pig-to-baboon heart transplant, ungenetically modified, 30 days.
3
SPEAKER_00
The baboon stayed alive?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
You made the transplant?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I did the transplant.
3
SPEAKER_00
The record, unmodified.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now, what they did, what we knew back then is the pig had this dumb sugar molecule on it that we react to.
3
SPEAKER_00
It had NU5Gc.
3
SPEAKER_00
 And so what they've done with that pig is they've genetically bred that pig to have our sugar molecule, NU5AC.
3
SPEAKER_00
So when our guys go past the wall of the pig's blood vessels,
3
SPEAKER_00
 we see our sugar molecule.
3
SPEAKER_00
So why is that important?
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, we know that we can develop an antibody to Nu5Gc in beef, lamb, and pork.
3
SPEAKER_00
 And it looks so similar to the antibody that lines our blood vessels that we attack our blood vessels by mistake when we see our own and that may
3
SPEAKER_00
 explain why meat eating is much more associated with coronary artery disease.
3
SPEAKER_00
Number one, we also know that cancer cells use NU5Gc to hide from the immune system.
3
SPEAKER_00
They literally cloak themselves.
3
SPEAKER_00
 We don't manufacture NU5GC, we have NU5AC.
3
SPEAKER_00
So they have to acquire NU5GC from our diet.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that may explain why meat eating associates higher with cancer development because of this molecule.
3
SPEAKER_00
 And so that's one reason.
3
SPEAKER_00
Second reason that the Cleveland Clinic would propose and vegans would propose is that a lot of our gut bacteria will take components in meat, even chicken, even fish, and turn it into a compound that can really damage blood vessels called TMAO.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I've written about it in all my books.
3
SPEAKER_00
 Most of us have gut bacteria that, when we eat meat, will make TMAO.
3
SPEAKER_00
Fun fact, if you eat a lot of polyphenol-containing foods or take polyphenol supplements, like resveratrol, like grapeseed extract, those polyphenols paralyze our gut bacteria so that they can't make TMAO.
3
SPEAKER_00
 It doesn't kill them.
3
SPEAKER_00
It paralyzes the enzyme system.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that may explain why Italians can eat sausages and whatever and not have much heart disease.
3
SPEAKER_00
It's because of the rich polyphenol diet that's suppressing that production.
3
SPEAKER_00
So those are some of the arguments.
3
SPEAKER_01
 So, if someone's going to be on this specific diet, how much meat should or can they have?
3
SPEAKER_01
What types of meat?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so what I try to do is limit people to about two to four ounces of animal protein a day.
3
SPEAKER_00
And the less the better, is what I'm hearing.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, really the less the better.
3
SPEAKER_00
Use it, you know, use it as a couple times a week.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, use it as a garnishment.
3
SPEAKER_00
Not the main thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
Not the main thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
A little.
3
SPEAKER_00
 Yeah, if you want a big giant Caesar salad with no croutons, and you want three grilled shrimp on, great, that's a wonderful meal.
3
SPEAKER_00
But we really, our protein needs are so overestimated, and we could get into an hour discussion on that.
3
SPEAKER_00
But we really only need, two and a half eggs gives you all the protein you need in 24 hours.
3
SPEAKER_00
 You don't need a lot more meat.
3
SPEAKER_00
You don't need a lot more meat.
3
SPEAKER_00
Gotcha.
3
SPEAKER_00
Don't get me wrong.
3
SPEAKER_00
I grew up in Omaha.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, I mean... You eat steak all day.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, steak and bacon for breakfast, you know, steak and eggs for lunch, you know, side of pork for dinner.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, that's living.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
3
SPEAKER_01
Not living very long, but... That's living time quick.
3
SPEAKER_01
So, high fiber.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, high-soluble fiber.
3
SPEAKER_01
Less meat, less meat.
3
SPEAKER_01
 And and really less lamb beef and pork is what I'm hearing.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah less lamb beef and pork Like if you're gonna have a steak do it once a month Yeah, you know actually, you know, my wife and I will have a grass-fed grass finish six ounce fillet Once three every three months
3
SPEAKER_00
 And it's really good, and we enjoy it, but it's really good.
3
SPEAKER_01
But eating that every day doesn't, from your research and your experience for what, decades doing heart?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, well, and I've been doing nutritional research now with patients for, this is my 22nd year.
3
SPEAKER_00
But you were a heart surgeon for how long?
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, for too long.
3
SPEAKER_01
 No, I was a heart surgeon for 50 years.
3
SPEAKER_01
50 years.
3
SPEAKER_01
So working with the heart for that long and seeing what people were eating to get to that place.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
And the exciting thing, you know, subsequently is watching people reverse heart disease.
3
SPEAKER_00
That's cool.
3
SPEAKER_00
By changing what they eat.
3
SPEAKER_00
By limiting so many things.
3
SPEAKER_01
 Now, to go back to the pig heart, what has happened now?
3
SPEAKER_01
So there was a pig heart transplant from a pig that was modified.
3
SPEAKER_00
Genetically modified.
3
SPEAKER_01
To have a sugar molecule that we have.
3
SPEAKER_00
That we have, instead of his sugar molecule, lining his blood vessel.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so this happened, what, a week or two ago?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, last week.
3
SPEAKER_01
So your colleague did a heart transplant of the pig into a human being.
3
SPEAKER_01
Correct.
3
SPEAKER_01
And the human's alive.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
 Now, just remember, baby Faye, my colleague Leonard Bailey, she lived for 14 days with a baboon heart in her.
3
SPEAKER_00
So there's this kind of grace period where this intense rejection against a foreign substance
3
SPEAKER_00
 takes place.
3
SPEAKER_00
So it's not going to feel good for... With pigs, the rejection was so immediate that before my research, the longest a pig in a baboon could go was about four hours, because the intense rejection was after that sugar molecule on the pig blood vessel.
3
SPEAKER_00
So it's going to... I mean, they've done some... Even a heart-to-heart transplant from human to human is traumatic.
3
SPEAKER_00
Sure, will attack.
3
SPEAKER_00
Exactly, will attack.
3
SPEAKER_00
But
3
SPEAKER_00
 Yeah, but they've done their homework.
3
SPEAKER_00
This has been going on now for well over 20 years.
3
SPEAKER_00
A lot of the research that I started at Loma Linda.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it's gone to fruition and, you know, the FDA has allowed a compassionate use for this guy.
3
SPEAKER_00
But they've done very good homework on looking
3
SPEAKER_00
 at what the protein molecules that our immune system is looking for that's different in a pig and then genetically modify it.
3
SPEAKER_00
That's crazy.
3
SPEAKER_01
So we'll see what happens.
3
SPEAKER_00
Is this guy awake?
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh yeah, he's awake.
3
SPEAKER_01
He's talking, is he able to talk right now?
3
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
3
SPEAKER_01
 That's fascinating.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so I mean this was not one of these last-ditch spur-of-the-moment.
3
SPEAKER_00
This research has been going on for a very long time.
3
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
3
SPEAKER_00
I started this research at Loma Linda in our xenotransplant lab in 1989, so it's been going on now.
3
SPEAKER_01
 How many heart transplants did you do?
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, geez.
3
SPEAKER_00
We usually did baby heart transplants.
3
SPEAKER_00
We did over one a week for multiple years.
3
SPEAKER_00
We don't do them as much anymore because we've refined the way of repairing babies' hearts where they can actually survive the operation.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, that's good.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so we don't need it as much anymore.
3
SPEAKER_00
But in adult transplants?
3
SPEAKER_00
 We need so many adults, we don't have any donors.
3
SPEAKER_00
So, I mean, there's a tremendous need for this.
3
SPEAKER_00
And artificial hearts, you know, I was one of the first 20 surgeons selected to put in the artificial heart.
3
SPEAKER_00
Even artificial hearts are not great.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, they're a nice stopgap.
3
SPEAKER_00
So, if this can happen, it would just be phenomenal.
3
SPEAKER_01
 Lots of good information here.
3
SPEAKER_01
You've got the book that I want people to get, which is called Unlocking the Keto Code, the revolutionary new science of keto that offers more benefits without deprivation, which I think that's the key there.
3
SPEAKER_01
People don't want to deprive themselves.
3
SPEAKER_01
Correct.
3
SPEAKER_01
No one wants to starve themselves, deprive themselves of foods that they enjoy, but you're going to have to
3
SPEAKER_01
 supplement things, you're going to have to replace certain things for other healthier options, and you're going to see extreme benefits in this process.
3
SPEAKER_01
So you've got this bulk.
3
SPEAKER_00
And really, if you want to get really most of the benefits of keto without doing keto, time-restricted eating, time-controlled eating is key.
3
SPEAKER_01
 And I've seen that from so many of the Dr. Longo, from Sinclair, all these longevity experts talking about time-restricted, how that it just seems to be universally tested now to help you in longevity, with weight loss, all these things.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and the amazing thing is it works by uncoupling mitochondria.
3
SPEAKER_00
That's what it helps with.
3
SPEAKER_01
That's how it does it.
3
SPEAKER_01
Interesting.
3
SPEAKER_00
 That's the underlying mechanism.
3
SPEAKER_00
None of us really knew the underlying mechanism.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like I say, it was their stereo.
3
SPEAKER_00
You just knew it.
3
SPEAKER_01
You just see results, but you didn't know why.
3
SPEAKER_01
We didn't know why it worked.
3
SPEAKER_00
And now we know.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now we know how it works.
3
SPEAKER_01
That's interesting.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so, you know, you and I want to become a parrot, you know.
3
SPEAKER_01
 Exactly, lived for a long time.
3
SPEAKER_01
DrGundry.com has all of your information, Dr. Gundry on social media as well.
3
SPEAKER_01
They can get the book at your site.
3
SPEAKER_01
Are you offering any other bonuses?
3
SPEAKER_00
 Yeah, we are offering a bonus for, I think, the first 2,000, they'll get the Energy Paradox as well, which, and it really, writing the Energy Paradox was the impetus to write the Keto Code, because as I was trying to explain all these wonderful benefits of ketones, I ran smack into a brick wall and said, what the heck?
3
SPEAKER_00
 They don't work the way all of us have been saying they work.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then I said, well, OK, they work.
3
SPEAKER_00
How are they working?
3
SPEAKER_00
And it's by literally wasting fuel, doing a caloric bypass.
3
SPEAKER_00
 And there's a lot better ways to lose weight than taking DNP.
3
SPEAKER_01
Which will kill you.
3
SPEAKER_01
You've got many books that people can get.
3
SPEAKER_01
You've also got the Gundry podcast, which you do weekly, I believe.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, weekly.
3
SPEAKER_01
Where you share a lot of this research and information.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, we're coming up on the 200th podcast.
3
SPEAKER_00
I like it.
3
SPEAKER_00
I like it.
3
SPEAKER_01
Coming along.
3
SPEAKER_00
 Yeah, it's very popular.
3
SPEAKER_00
We're on Podcast One now.
3
SPEAKER_00
That's great.
3
SPEAKER_00
It's exciting.
3
SPEAKER_01
How else can we support you besides getting the book, following you on social, listening to the show?
3
SPEAKER_01
What else can we do?
3
SPEAKER_00
 Oh my gosh, go to GundryMD.com and check out the supplements, including my incredibly high polyphenol olive oil.
3
SPEAKER_00
This thing is powerful.
3
SPEAKER_00
Which is powerful.
3
SPEAKER_01
I've got a bunch of this stuff in here.
3
SPEAKER_01
30 times more polyphenols than regular olive oil.
3
SPEAKER_01
I take the vitamin D that you have there.
3
SPEAKER_01
I love that stuff.
3
SPEAKER_01
It's always good stuff.
3
SPEAKER_01
You've got great stuff over there.
3
SPEAKER_01
What else?
3
SPEAKER_01
Anything else we can do?
3
SPEAKER_00
That'll do it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Get the book.
3
SPEAKER_00
 It'll rock your world.
3
SPEAKER_00
It'll go, what the heck?
3
SPEAKER_01
I didn't know that.
3
SPEAKER_01
It's fun.
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, Dr. Gundry, I always appreciate you coming on.
3
SPEAKER_01
I acknowledge you for constantly furthering the research and sharing new things with people to help them unlock, really, their health in a different way.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I really acknowledge you for constantly pushing the envelope, finding these new things, sharing it in an interesting way so we can understand it, and excited about the new book.
3
SPEAKER_01
So thanks so much.
3
SPEAKER_00
Thanks for having me again.
3
SPEAKER_00
Pleasure.
3
SPEAKER_01
 Thank you so much for listening.
3
SPEAKER_01
I hope you enjoyed today's episode and inspired you on your journey towards greatness.
3
SPEAKER_01
Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links.
3
SPEAKER_01
And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple podcasts as well.
3
SPEAKER_01
 I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most.
3
SPEAKER_01
And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.
3
SPEAKER_01
And now it's time to go out there and do something great.