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SPEAKER_02
Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert.
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I m Dan Rather, I m joined by the Minister of... What?
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I don t know, it touches up to a little.
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SPEAKER_00
Weren t you the Minister of something?
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I was the Minister of Magic.
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SPEAKER_02
No, that wasn t it.
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SPEAKER_02
That s Terrence Posner in The Sorcerer s Stone.
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Minister of something.
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I was.
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Minister of mice.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02
Maybe the minister of mice.
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That sounds right.
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We have a fucking radical guest on today.
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Yes.
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Billy Joe Armstrong.
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Green Day.
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Green Day, one of the longest running major arena kick-ass rock bands of all time.
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We re in a kind of a music,
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SPEAKER_00
yeah we re in our music zone we re in a music phase because we have billy joe and then next week we have some music armchair anonymous and we have batiste yeah yeah yep and we have someone scheduled too also someone else yeah okay easter egg
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Yeah, he s right.
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Well, I loved meeting him.
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It was so fun.
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And most importantly, Green Day has a new album out called Saviors, which is fucking kick ass.
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And it s out January 19th.
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So definitely check that out and look for the videos because we ve seen a few of the videos and they re awesome.
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Very, very cool.
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Please enjoy Billy Joe Armstrong.
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SPEAKER_00
Hi.
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SPEAKER_01
Hi.
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SPEAKER_01
How s it going?
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SPEAKER_01
Welcome.
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SPEAKER_01
Great to meet you, brother.
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Nice to meet you.
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SPEAKER_00
Hi, Monica.
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SPEAKER_00
Nice to meet you.
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SPEAKER_00
Nice to meet you.
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SPEAKER_02
I was checking out your non-alcoholic beer.
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SPEAKER_02
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_02
Do you want me to get you one out of the fridge?
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Do you like any?
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
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It s very, very good.
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My family are huge fans of the show.
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SPEAKER_00
That s nice.
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Yeah, yeah.
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We re always so flattered to hear that.
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It s me and my two best friends from Detroit.
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I ll give you a guess, you might be one of the few people that can crack it.
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If it s from Michigan, and it s called Ted Seeger s, what do you think that s about?
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Bob Seeger?
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Bob Seeger, Ian.
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Or it would be Ted from Michigan.
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Bundy?
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Close.
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Nugent.
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Oh, Nugent.
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The Nug.
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Close.
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SPEAKER_02
That s amazing.
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What could be better?
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SPEAKER_02
Oh, here we go.
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Cheers.
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Oh, this is fun.
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SPEAKER_02
This is my first time cracking a can.
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Mmm, that s good.
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As far as NAs go, it s like as close as you can get to the real deal.
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
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I ve been drinking a lot more NAs now.
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What s your favorite?
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Well, let me guess.
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Zero Zero?
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The Heinekens?
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I like it, but it makes me pee nonstop.
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SPEAKER_01
Sure.
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That s going to happen.
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Yeah.
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What else is in the hopper?
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Pun intended.
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I like the new Guinness Zeros.
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They re really good.
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The Pub Drought?
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It tastes almost identical.
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As I remember, it s been 19 years, but I m going to hit you with something that I hope immediately connects us.
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Okay.
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It involves one of the most magical nights of my life.
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I m in Oakland visiting my cousin in 96.
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He s a musician.
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He introduces me to this dude, Jason White.
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Jason White s like.
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One of my favorite people on the planet.
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Okay.
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So he and I meet and it s an explosion.
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He s from Arkansas.
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Yep.
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He s like a proper good old boy.
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He s got, he comes from that thing, but he s, he s left it as FI and we locked eyes and he and I went so fucking hard.
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This is back when I drank.
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Introduced by my cousin.
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We leave him long in the dust at some point.
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We end up at a piano bar.
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There s hours of the night I don t remember.
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Probably at the alley in Oakland.
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Yeah, it was the alley.
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In fact, my cousin just sent me a picture of it.
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Yeah, the Dueling Piano Bar.
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I felt like I met a soulmate and then I never really saw him again, but we spent like 48 hours together.
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Who s the person that he would know to make the connection?
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My cousin, Justin Lebow, I don t know if you ve ever heard of him, but he s in film school in Detroit.
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He had a band back in the day called Current and then Ottawa.
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He moved to Oakland and then somehow he became friends with Jason.
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And then when I was visiting, he s like, I know this dude now I think you re really going to get along with.
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And it was him.
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And I just had like a whirlwind romance with him.
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Yeah, me and him, we travel on the bus together.
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I met him in Arkansas in 1990.
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Okay.
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So he was booking shows and then he booked our show at this place called Vino s.
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And did you have a similar explosion of like connection with him?
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Yeah.
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immediately because he played me some of his band and he could sing and I was like this dude is really good.
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Then he ended up a couple years later moving out to Oakland and then I have a side project band, Pin and Gum Powder.
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Yeah, that he replaced someone in, right?
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He replaced some, yeah.
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You were both singing and playing guitar?
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Yeah, yeah.
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I understand what you mean.
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We were like immediate kindred spirits about everything.
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Yes.
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We had the same sense of humor.
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We had the same background.
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Yes.
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Super funny.
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I will say when I isolate the things I liked about the punk rock scene in Detroit, it was most people were super into being funny.
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I think that was actually the thing.
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There was an irreverence that was built into the scene.
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Yeah.
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So many of those kids I knew in that time ended up being like the funniest people I ever met.
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Him being one of them were just instantly hysterical.
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He joined Green Day in 99.
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Oh, he did?
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He s our second guitar player.
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SPEAKER_02
Oh, still?
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Yeah.
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This makes me so happy because I have to say, I had that night with him.
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I ended up getting sober.
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And I remember thinking, I wonder how it worked out for that too, because he seemed to go like I did.
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And you just wonder, you know, if you ve had one of those party nights with somebody.
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He s living in Berkeley now and he s married, has two kids.
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Oh, wonderful.
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And he s funny when we re on tour, he ll go out like, where s Jason?
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Like on our days off.
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And we always say he s going bourdaining.
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Okay.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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So he s checking out every hotspot.
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Is he like a foodie now?
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He s total foodie and a cook and the drinking he laid, he s definitely more mellow.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Well, that s a given.
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It was unsustainable.
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At least the version I experienced with him that I too was participating.
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Yeah.
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When you grow up being like a replacements fan, it kind of goes hand in hand.
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The romance with self-destruction and booze and great rock and roll.
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I know, do you find yourself, I ll watch these movies like Leaving Las Vegas, there s some of these tragic stories, and they re over, and the people I m with are like, oh, that was, and I m like, I m sorry, but it looks good.
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I hate to say, like, it looks good.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, I don t know what that gene is in us.
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We just made a video a couple days ago.
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I ll show it to you after we talk.
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I think you might find it interesting.
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Okay, great.
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Now, the other thing from that night that I remember, he divulged to me, because he found out I m super into cars, and he liked cars.
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Again, there s a rare thing
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in the punk world to care about cars.
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I love cars too.
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And he told me you had a Galaxy 500.
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He had the Galaxy.
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Oh, he had a Galaxy.
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Yeah, I convinced him to buy it.
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Okay.
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At the time I had a 62 Chevy Nova and a Ford Fairlane.
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A Ford Fairlane, that s what the story he told me involved.
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And this could be apocryphal, but I want you to know I ve been holding this story for 30 some years, which was you got pulled over, you were in the Fairlane and the cop came up and then he recognized you.
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And then when you took off, you laid rubber and everything was good.
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I was like, that s the goal in life.
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And I m here to report that I had that experience in downtown LA.
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The two cops flagged me down to say hi, then the light turned green, I let it rip.
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And I was like, oh my God, I lived out my Billy Joe fantasy.
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Yeah, that s amazing.
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Do you remember that story or do you think it s apocryphal?
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Well, I ve had a couple stories.
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I have gotten a DUI before.
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Okay.
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Right.
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But there s a couple of times where I had a light out and I had a couple of drinks and I got pulled over and I m just like, act straight, you know, put your hands on the wheel.
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It happened to me on Hollywood Boulevard.
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I was in my Nova and the cop looked at me.
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He was like, you know, I pulled you over.
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And I go, because I got a light out.
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And he goes, yeah, looks at my license.
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He looks at me and he goes, okay, go on.
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And I definitely didn t pull a rubber that time.
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You were like, oh no, I thought we were going to jail.
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No, we re not.
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We re going to tiptoe home and this would be the last time ever.
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Yeah, for sure.
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For sure.
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I m so delighted though, that Jason s still in your life and he s doing good and he s got kids.
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That makes me really happy.
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Yeah.
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He s one of my closest, best friends.
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Oh, that s wonderful.
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Okay.
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SPEAKER_02
Let s start in the suburb Rodeo.
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SPEAKER_02
Is that where you grew up?
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02
And we re pronouncing it Rodeo, right?
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SPEAKER_02
It s not rodeo.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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It s a totally unincorporated town here.
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No, it s in Bay Area, West Contra Costa County, or the locals call it West Cocoa County.
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There s these three small towns.
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It s Rodeo, Crockett, then Port Costa.
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And Port Costa is really tiny.
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They re all really small.
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Everybody went to one high school there.
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I was supposed to graduate with like 60 people or something like that.
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Oh, no kidding.
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SPEAKER_01
That s small.
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Your dad drove her safely?
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, Safeway truck driver.
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And a musician?
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He was a jazz drummer.
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And did he play a lot as a kid?
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SPEAKER_01
He played pretty often, but he used to play all the clubs in the Bay Area.
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He had some of his gear stolen.
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And then when I started getting back into music and singing, he bought some of his drum set back.
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He started playing with me when I would do gigs, because I started off as just like a singer when I was like... Five, right?
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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There s a recording of him singing.
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I made a record.
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SPEAKER_00
Oh, wow.
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SPEAKER_01
Ian Kimmel played it one time when you were on.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah.
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So I started playing with him then, and then I picked up the guitar when I was eight, so I was jamming with him then.
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How fun.
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Yeah, it s a really important memory.
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I bet.
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And you re the youngest of six.
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That s right.
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Three older sisters, two older brothers.
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We both have an older Dave, by the way.
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SPEAKER_01
How old is he?
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SPEAKER_01
How much older were the boys?
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David was born in 69.
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I was born in 72.
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You re 75.
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SPEAKER_02
Yes.
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SPEAKER_02
How did you know that?
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SPEAKER_02
Wikipedia.
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SPEAKER_02
Okay, great.
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SPEAKER_02
You did your research.
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SPEAKER_00
I did my little research.
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SPEAKER_00
Sure, sure, sure.
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SPEAKER_00
It s a cursory.
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SPEAKER_02
I was wondering how old you were.
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SPEAKER_02
I was like, is this guy an Xer or millennial?
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SPEAKER_02
I was like, oh, he s an X. So I was like, all right, cool.
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SPEAKER_02
And then my oldest brother was born in 1950.
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SPEAKER_01
Yes.
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So this is pretty staggering.
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SPEAKER_01
Your parents are born in the thirties.
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Mine are born in the fifties and we re the same age.
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So I was like, oh, you were late for them probably.
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Yeah, she had her first son with a different husband.
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SPEAKER_02
Oh, this is scandalous.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
Wow, wow, wow.
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SPEAKER_02
She s gone through a few.
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She was a hot little commodity.
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SPEAKER_00
Good for her.
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And she married my dad in like 58, and they didn t start having kids too fast, but then it went 63, my sister showed up.
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SPEAKER_02
66, another sister.
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SPEAKER_02
68, another sister.
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SPEAKER_02
69, my brother, and then 72, me.
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SPEAKER_02
Wow.
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SPEAKER_02
So it was like bang, bang, bang, bang.
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SPEAKER_02
They were hard at it.
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SPEAKER_02
So the oldest brother is a full,
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SPEAKER_02
What?
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SPEAKER_00
22 years.
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SPEAKER_02
22 years older than you?
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
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The distance in age between me and my oldest brother is wider than the distance in age between him and my mother.
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SPEAKER_00
Whoa.
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SPEAKER_00
Right, right.
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SPEAKER_02
She had my brother Alan when she was, I think, 18.
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SPEAKER_02
And I was born, he was 21.
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SPEAKER_02
Oh my lord.
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SPEAKER_02
That s crazy.
1
SPEAKER_02
And some mom was 42-ish.
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SPEAKER_02
She was 39 and she was about to turn 40.
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SPEAKER_01
And were you conscious of the fact that your parents were older when you were a kid?
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, because a lot of my friends had parents that were more 60s generation.
1
SPEAKER_02
I wouldn t say all hippies, but I would see old photos of my parents when they were teenagers.
1
SPEAKER_02
They were teenagers during World War II.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, my mom moved from Oklahoma.
1
SPEAKER_02
She s one of 12.
1
SPEAKER_02
Holy shit.
1
SPEAKER_02
She moved to California when she was about 12 or 13 and it was during the war effort.
1
SPEAKER_02
They worked in the shipping yards building ships and bombs in Richmond, California and Oakland.
1
SPEAKER_02
She was born during the depression.
1
SPEAKER_02
She went through World War II, the Korean War, lost a brother in the Vietnam War, went through the 70s having kids and lost a brother to AIDS.
1
SPEAKER_02
So she s seen so much evolution in this country.
1
SPEAKER_02
She s not even really like a culture vulture kind of person, but the kinds of things that she s witnessed through her life, even television.
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SPEAKER_01
She s born into an era with no TV and then now she lives with fucking AI.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s kind of insane.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
She doesn t seem to have a global picture of that or doesn t give a shit or is not impressed by her own story.
1
SPEAKER_01
Is it mind blowing to her?
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SPEAKER_01
Because I feel like I want it to be mind blowing for her.
1
SPEAKER_02
I think it is.
1
SPEAKER_02
She reflects a lot on her life and she s really sharp.
1
SPEAKER_02
She s 91 and she s in great shape.
1
SPEAKER_02
She walks every day and exercises.
1
SPEAKER_02
Is she still in that area?
1
SPEAKER_02
The house I grew up in.
1
SPEAKER_02
Oh, that s incredible.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
Every once in a while you ll hear a story about one of her brothers or something like that.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s like, whoa.
1
SPEAKER_02
A lot of my family was military because you got drafted and you went.
1
SPEAKER_02
And my oldest brother got drafted for the Vietnam War.
1
SPEAKER_02
I hope I m not getting him in trouble right now.
1
SPEAKER_02
But he said he went in and he had his papers, went into the office, and then all of a sudden the last second he goes, I m out of here.
1
SPEAKER_02
He left.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh, wow.
1
SPEAKER_02
Thank God they never tracked him down.
1
SPEAKER_02
He didn t go to Canada or anything.
1
SPEAKER_02
He just stayed local.
1
SPEAKER_01
No, he just stayed.
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SPEAKER_01
And ignored the mail.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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And hoped nobody would track him down.
1
SPEAKER_01
Kind of like how you do a jury summons.
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SPEAKER_01
Just kind of ignore it.
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SPEAKER_01
I m going to pretend.
1
SPEAKER_00
I know.
1
SPEAKER_00
You gotta serve your time.
1
SPEAKER_00
Not in a war, but in jury duty.
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SPEAKER_00
I do think you should.
1
SPEAKER_01
I m like, don t they have to prove I received it?
1
SPEAKER_01
This is my defense in my mind.
1
SPEAKER_01
I m like, oh, if they do come for me, I ll go like, well, I never got one.
1
SPEAKER_02
How could you prove I got one?
1
SPEAKER_01
I haven t signed for one yet.
1
SPEAKER_02
I haven t looked in a mailbox in 30 years.
1
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
1
SPEAKER_01
My apologies.
1
SPEAKER_01
I ll come now.
1
SPEAKER_00
If you serve one, you ll see why you should serve one.
1
SPEAKER_01
I did.
1
SPEAKER_01
I ve gone twice and then every time they kick me off and then I think, why are we going through this song and dance?
1
SPEAKER_01
I m just going to skip it.
1
SPEAKER_00
Did you watch the show Jury Duty?
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
So good.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh my God.
1
SPEAKER_02
What a nightmare for the people to find out they re just getting hoaxed.
1
SPEAKER_00
I know.
1
SPEAKER_02
Oh my God.
1
SPEAKER_02
Do you think you have younger brother syndrome?
1
SPEAKER_02
Oh.
1
SPEAKER_02
I wouldn t say syndrome, but it was very well known I was the baby in the family and I sort of looked like the baby in the family.
1
SPEAKER_02
My sisters used to play dress up with me and stuff like that.
1
SPEAKER_02
I was like a little doll to them.
1
SPEAKER_02
Could have been a serial killer from that.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
And then my brother, we shared a bedroom our whole life.
1
SPEAKER_01
Here s my little brotherism.
1
SPEAKER_01
Everything he did was the cool thing to do.
1
SPEAKER_01
He s why I skateboarded.
1
SPEAKER_01
He s why I snowboarded.
1
SPEAKER_01
My first show was exploited at 11 years old.
1
SPEAKER_01
I have no business being at exploited, but he s driven us there.
1
SPEAKER_01
He s 16.
1
SPEAKER_01
Hell yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
Whatever he did, I did.
1
SPEAKER_01
And then in sixth grade, he sent me to school and I had like a really radical haircut and I was wearing all hardcore stuff.
1
SPEAKER_01
That became who I was.
1
SPEAKER_01
I didn t pick it.
1
SPEAKER_01
He was doing it.
1
SPEAKER_01
And then I did it.
1
SPEAKER_01
And lo and behold, it totally worked.
1
SPEAKER_01
People thought I was extra confident.
1
SPEAKER_02
I had an older sister the same way.
1
SPEAKER_02
My sister, Anna, I got really into metal early on.
1
SPEAKER_02
And she s like, why don t you come to these shows with me?
1
SPEAKER_02
I was 13 and I saw REM play in a gymnasium in Santa Cruz.
1
SPEAKER_02
And then I saw The Replacements.
1
SPEAKER_02
She took me to see like 10,000 Maniacs.
1
SPEAKER_02
10,000 Maniacs.
1
SPEAKER_02
That was the first time I had heard music that felt important.
1
SPEAKER_02
It made me emotional in a different way than more of the party, hair metal stuff that I was listening to.
1
SPEAKER_02
And then it caused me to go deeper because all of a sudden I became obsessed.
1
SPEAKER_02
I became a massive Husker Du fan.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes, I ve heard this about you.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
What happened to me is I got handed this genre of music and I just did it because my brother was doing it.
1
SPEAKER_01
But every now and then a melodic one would seep in, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Or I discover, let s say, mostly everything on Discord where I go like, oh, there s some melodies.
1
SPEAKER_01
I really want this so bad.
1
SPEAKER_01
I was like starved for melody and beauty probably.
1
SPEAKER_02
After the hardcore scene burned itself out because it became kind of the who can play faster songs Olympics.
1
SPEAKER_02
And like who could have the fastest drummer.
1
SPEAKER_02
Like any scene, it starts to kind of wear itself out.
1
SPEAKER_02
But I think after that with post-hardcore and the label that we were on in the Bay Area scene, more people were getting back into melody.
1
SPEAKER_02
One man from Discord I saw, Gray Matter.
1
SPEAKER_01
Uh-huh, sure.
1
SPEAKER_01
I love them and I saw Soulcide.
1
SPEAKER_01
I had a Soulcide tattoo.
1
SPEAKER_01
This used to be the sun and then the flames from the Soulcide album, but then that was tribal and then tribal tattoos got really embarrassing, so I had to cover it.
1
SPEAKER_02
Oh, man.
1
SPEAKER_02
You should have lived in Detroit, man.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I was a little bummed when that evolution happened in tattoos, where every dude on the Jersey Shore had a huge tribal piece, and I was like, oh, I gotta get rid of this thing.
1
SPEAKER_01
No one knows this is Soulcide.
1
SPEAKER_00
God, what if that happens to crows?
1
SPEAKER_00
What are you gonna do?
1
SPEAKER_01
If everyone on the Jersey Shore gets crows and hawks, I m sure they have them.
1
SPEAKER_01
I think I m destined, can t escape it.
1
SPEAKER_02
My whole body is a walking inside joke, you know, like all of my tattoos.
1
SPEAKER_01
Right, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
What s the most embarrassing one you can think of off the top of your head?
1
SPEAKER_01
And granted, you now have come to love it most certainly,
1
SPEAKER_02
I don t have anyone.
1
SPEAKER_02
I m really embarrassed that there was kind of a little gang of young punks back in the day.
1
SPEAKER_02
It was called Death Wish Kids.
1
SPEAKER_02
That was from a Poison Idea song.
1
SPEAKER_02
It was DWK.
1
SPEAKER_02
Then we started calling it like dudes with kielbasa and like deadly white kung fu.
1
SPEAKER_02
That s the one I get the biggest kick out of.
1
SPEAKER_01
Now, this is a very sweet story.
1
SPEAKER_01
It does make me think of maybe the chili peppers meeting young, but you met Mike, who s now the bassist when you were like 10 years old in school.
1
SPEAKER_01
I m sorry.
1
SPEAKER_01
We have to also address really quick.
1
SPEAKER_01
Your dad dies when you re 10.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I feel like that s probably related to meeting Mike or somehow there s something there.
1
SPEAKER_02
I think about that often because I met him, it was in the fifth grade and we were at a middle school, it was fifth through eighth.
1
SPEAKER_02
We were both sort of this class clown and right from the beginning we were very close.
1
SPEAKER_02
We always talked about music, even at that young of an age, but that was the same month that my dad passed away.
1
SPEAKER_02
When I met him, he wanted to be a comedian.
1
SPEAKER_02
He was like a 10-year-old trying out material on me.
1
SPEAKER_02
And it was pretty funny.
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean, he s a huge comedy guy.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I think that there s definitely correlation between gaining this friend and losing a parent at the same time.
1
SPEAKER_01
Well, I would imagine it would be the difference between having a friend because they re there.
1
SPEAKER_01
Why not?
1
SPEAKER_01
It s entertaining versus very much needing a friend.
1
SPEAKER_01
I think we both needed each other.
1
SPEAKER_02
We could have deep conversations.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s so funny.
1
SPEAKER_02
We used to go into my backyard and we used to pick up these leaves that we thought were magic leaves and that we can control the wind, you know, so we d sit there.
1
SPEAKER_00
Orchestrate the wind.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, all of a sudden a wind would come.
1
SPEAKER_02
See, I told you they were magic leaves.
1
SPEAKER_02
And as time went on, that relationship just kept growing.
1
SPEAKER_02
And we always sort of talked about music and being in a band.
1
SPEAKER_02
Who did you guys think was the coolest?
2
SPEAKER_01
coolest band at that age?
2
SPEAKER_03
I really loved Motley Crue and Van Halen.
2
SPEAKER_03
Those were big bands for me when I was around 11, 12 years old.
2
SPEAKER_03
Then I think around 13 is when it got into harder metal.
2
SPEAKER_03
Around 12 years old is when me and Mike, we would sit down and play guitar together.
2
SPEAKER_01
And he originally played guitar.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_03
So when we got to around high school, we were like, we want to be like the replacements.
2
SPEAKER_03
Mike played guitar, and I play guitar.
2
SPEAKER_03
And we had rotating drummers.
2
SPEAKER_03
This one kid, Jimmy Brasher, was with us.
2
SPEAKER_03
And we had our friend Sean, who was a really close buddy of ours.
2
SPEAKER_03
And we were playing in the backyard, and Sean was having a hard time keeping up playing bass because he was just a few years behind us.
2
SPEAKER_03
And then one day, he had to go to the dentist.
2
SPEAKER_03
This is such a kid thing.
2
SPEAKER_03
I know.
2
SPEAKER_01
Get his braces tightened.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_03
He had to go to the dentist and me and Mike and Jimmy, we re sitting there and I go, Mike, why don t you try picking up the bass?
2
SPEAKER_03
And he was like, okay.
2
SPEAKER_03
And then he played everything that he was supposed to play perfectly.
2
SPEAKER_03
It was this weird feeling where I looked at him and I was like, you know you re going to be the bass player, right?
2
SPEAKER_03
He looked at me like, oh man, now I can t play guitar because now I m the bass player.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yes, of course.
2
SPEAKER_03
My brother Al, my oldest brother, told Mike, he goes, you re not a rhythm guitar player, you re a lead bass player.
2
SPEAKER_03
Oh, that s a good reframing.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes, a good spin.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_03
Mike tackled that.
2
SPEAKER_03
He s an amazing bass player, totally underrated.
2
SPEAKER_03
His melodies that he writes on bass are gorgeous.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, I think the one we should say immediately is Longview, because we re here, you go to the movies, you ve got a song in your mind, but you don t know what the baseline is.
2
SPEAKER_01
You come back from the movies, Mike is on acid in the kitchen, lying on his back, and he s got it.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_03
We all lived with this one house.
2
SPEAKER_03
It was two or three bands that were sharing this house in Richmond.
2
SPEAKER_03
I went to the movies and everybody in the house dropped acid.
2
SPEAKER_03
Then I showed up because I told him, I go, we really need a good baseline for this song.
2
SPEAKER_03
The mic is sitting on the floor.
2
SPEAKER_03
His eyes are in circles.
2
SPEAKER_03
He goes, I got it.
2
SPEAKER_03
I got it.
2
SPEAKER_03
I remember going, yeah, that s cool.
2
SPEAKER_03
I just hope you remember it.
2
SPEAKER_01
You don t have a cell phone yet to pull it out and just start recording the audio probably.
2
SPEAKER_03
No, nothing like that, but he remembered it.
2
SPEAKER_03
That s the memory that I have, and I hope that that s the memory he has with it.
2
SPEAKER_03
Does it matter?
2
SPEAKER_03
No, no.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m in the middle of writing stuff about my childhood.
2
SPEAKER_01
My brother and I were in the same place at the same time for these same events.
2
SPEAKER_01
Both of us have completely different memories of it.
2
SPEAKER_01
How on earth could you trust one of us over the other?
2
SPEAKER_00
Both of you are wrong is really the answer.
2
SPEAKER_00
And both are right.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right?
2
SPEAKER_03
Both are wrong, both are right.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_03
I mean, we definitely remember things differently.
2
SPEAKER_03
I have a really good memory of the early days, being in a van and touring.
2
SPEAKER_03
I can remember the houses and the people that we stayed at, and I can remember which gig.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s pretty impressive, I ve got to say for myself.
2
SPEAKER_01
But that makes so much sense, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
Because it s the first of everything.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_03
I used to wear this pick on a necklace and it was a Ramones pick, but we played in Cape Cod and we played with seven-league boots.
2
SPEAKER_03
Soulside became seven-league boots.
2
SPEAKER_03
And so I remember
2
SPEAKER_03
playing this sort of vets hall and I look down and I m like, oh my God, a Ramones pick.
2
SPEAKER_03
I took it with me and I made a necklace out of it.
2
SPEAKER_03
I just had this conversation with somebody else.
2
SPEAKER_03
She s like, you played in Cape Cod in like 1991.
2
SPEAKER_03
I go, no, it was 1992.
2
SPEAKER_03
I found a Ramones pick.
2
SPEAKER_03
We played with seven league boots.
2
SPEAKER_03
And Trey is sitting there and he s going, oh my God, how can you remember all this shit?
2
SPEAKER_01
I think it s being a songwriter.
2
SPEAKER_01
I got to imagine there s something in the same way that smells activate memories so strongly, they re located close to each other in the brain.
2
SPEAKER_01
I d imagine there s something about the musical experience when you re hearing that song or it s coming to you or you re breaking it or you re synthesizing it.
2
SPEAKER_01
I have to imagine that gets stored in a unique way that probably cements all the details that led to it in your mind in a way.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_03
One thing that s good about having voice notes on your phone, a melody will hit me in the head and then I ll just sing into it and that ll start the process of writing the song.
2
SPEAKER_03
There s one song on our new album called Susie Chapstick that
2
SPEAKER_03
I did the voice note, I demoed it four different ways until I kind of came to like a teenage fan club pretender s kind of feel to it.
2
SPEAKER_03
So I edited it together, the arc of how the song came about.
2
SPEAKER_03
One day I ll put it out.
2
SPEAKER_03
All from voice memos.
2
SPEAKER_03
voice memos and little piano parts.
2
SPEAKER_03
And at one point it was like a bossa nova.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I was like, well, I don t think we re going to be able to get away with a bossa nova on this record, but.
2
SPEAKER_01
You never know though.
2
SPEAKER_01
You ve gone some places that probably you were shocked with the outcome.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, absolutely.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_01
So you move out of your town and you go to West Oakland.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
With Mike.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, Mike.
2
SPEAKER_01
Here s the thing about Mike.
2
SPEAKER_03
We are so close, it is like our story.
2
SPEAKER_03
His mother ended up moving to Louisiana before high school got out.
2
SPEAKER_03
So he moved in at my house with my mom.
2
SPEAKER_03
Who would notice?
2
SPEAKER_03
There s already fucking a hundred people there.
2
SPEAKER_02
So many kids.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, I know.
2
SPEAKER_03
She was like, give me a couple hundred bucks a month, cause rent, and then...
2
SPEAKER_03
As soon as I had to start paying rent at home, that s when I was like, I m moving to West Oakland.
2
SPEAKER_03
And a friend of mine hooked me up, big warehouse space full of other bands and artists.
2
SPEAKER_03
It was like $50 a month for rent.
2
SPEAKER_03
I have my own room.
2
SPEAKER_03
That was an eye-opening experience being on my own for the first time in West fucking Oakland.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_01
So this is why I relate deeply to you.
2
SPEAKER_01
So we all moved to downtown Detroit and we had a loft.
2
SPEAKER_01
And similarly, I had to come up with a hundred bucks a month and then I m good.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then we can go to St.
2
SPEAKER_01
Andrews every night and we can get hammered and walk around the city.
2
SPEAKER_01
I imagine the same culture shock for you that it was for me.
2
SPEAKER_01
When you re walking around, you re getting mugged.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like this is a standard.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
The sense of danger was always there.
2
SPEAKER_03
Which is so exciting though, isn t it?
2
SPEAKER_03
Well, there was also this cool thing.
2
SPEAKER_03
I remember we couldn t go to the liquor store after two.
2
SPEAKER_03
There would be a guy down the street that was selling beer out of the back of his car.
2
SPEAKER_03
So we would go by 40s out of the back of this guy s car.
2
SPEAKER_03
I had a 77 Datsun B210.
2
SPEAKER_01
My battery would get stolen all the time.
2
SPEAKER_01
This is what we learned.
2
SPEAKER_01
So first I parked my car in front of that loft and all the windows got broken and someone stole the stereo out standard.
2
SPEAKER_01
So then I m like, I m going to leave the doors unlocked so they don t break my windows.
2
SPEAKER_01
They got broken again.
2
SPEAKER_01
Cause people just assume it s locked.
2
SPEAKER_01
It evolved to, you had to park with your windows completely down.
2
SPEAKER_01
That was the only way to prevent them from getting smashed.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it was winter in Detroit.
2
SPEAKER_01
You come outside and there d be snow on your fucking front seat.
2
SPEAKER_01
You probably had a shitty car.
2
SPEAKER_01
You re trying to get it started in the cold.
2
SPEAKER_01
I had an 84 Ford Mustang GT that I had rebuilt the engine on.
2
SPEAKER_03
Well, shit.
2
SPEAKER_03
You re very intimate with the car.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, I was.
2
SPEAKER_01
See, the window s broken.
2
SPEAKER_01
Every few weeks was a bummer.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh my God.
2
SPEAKER_01
That sense of danger I found very intoxicating and arousing.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, especially moving in with people that were doing the same thing when you re living in a house with 16 people.
2
SPEAKER_01
Is that how many people were in there?
2
SPEAKER_03
It was a warehouse.
2
SPEAKER_03
I think at one point it was a brothel.
2
SPEAKER_03
Oh, wow.
2
SPEAKER_03
So it was all these kids that had all of these rooms and we had gigantic rats.
2
SPEAKER_03
And me and my friend, we used to sit there with pellet guns.
2
SPEAKER_03
We never actually shot any.
2
SPEAKER_03
And then I remember, Adrienne, it was the first time she came to visit me.
2
SPEAKER_03
Who s your wife?
2
SPEAKER_03
My wife now.
2
SPEAKER_03
This was in 91.
2
SPEAKER_03
We had a great time together.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I remember she goes, will you come with me?
2
SPEAKER_03
I have to go downstairs to go to the bathroom.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I was thinking about those rats and I m like, I m not going down there.
2
SPEAKER_02
I m so sorry.
2
SPEAKER_02
I can t be the hero right now.
2
SPEAKER_02
I got a cat box though Because we have 13 cats, too It feels like you re gonna find them eating a grandma s body or something
2
SPEAKER_00
And she still married you, even though you wouldn t protect her from those rats.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, they have a cute story.
2
SPEAKER_01
First tour he ever did with Green Day, they were at a house party in Minneapolis, and he met her.
2
SPEAKER_01
It was 4th of July, 1990.
2
SPEAKER_03
We played, she was there with her boyfriend, and this was the first time we were out of California, and California fireworks are illegal, but right when we got to these different states, we were buying bottle rockets and all this stuff.
2
SPEAKER_03
Her first memory of me is me shooting bottle rockets at her.
2
SPEAKER_03
And her boyfriend that was there also.
2
SPEAKER_03
Sure.
2
SPEAKER_03
Who you hated at that moment.
2
SPEAKER_03
We played the next night at the Varsity Theater in Dinkytown and she showed up.
2
SPEAKER_03
I remember she came up to me.
2
SPEAKER_03
And we started talking and we were out of records that we were selling on tour.
2
SPEAKER_03
She was, I have a couple of friends that are in England that love your band, but they can t get your records.
2
SPEAKER_03
And then I was like, oh my God, this girl is so beautiful.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I was like, here s my home address and my phone number.
2
SPEAKER_01
And a bus ticket.
2
SPEAKER_01
And a ring.
2
SPEAKER_03
And so she wrote me and we became pen pals.
2
SPEAKER_03
And so I sent her records and then we started talking on the phone more and then obviously we just
3
SPEAKER_00
feeling this connection that was growing deep really quickly.
3
SPEAKER_01
You basically bamboozle your bandmates into going and adding two cities to a tour later that you have no business going to so you can see her again.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
And you ve now written 2,000 light years away.
3
SPEAKER_01
I wrote that on the way home.
3
SPEAKER_01
Were the other guys calling you out?
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, why are we going all the way here for these two shows?
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, I think that they kind of didn t give a shit because we packed our van with like six of us.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so we got in the 40 Connell line and we had to drive to Sioux Falls, South Dakota first.
3
SPEAKER_00
Adrian met me there and then they quickly figured out we played Mankato, Minnesota.
3
SPEAKER_00
You listen to this memory.
3
SPEAKER_00
These are not even towns.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, we played in Beloit, Wisconsin, and we played in Minneapolis at the 7th Street Entry.
3
SPEAKER_01
There was a pretty big scene there, though.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that was probably a good-sized show.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it was just more coming to a little mecca to be playing where Hoosker and The Replacements and Soul Asylum.
3
SPEAKER_00
But they figured it out that I was really into her pretty quickly.
3
SPEAKER_00
But at that time, I think Trey may have even been about 17 years old when we made that drive.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh my Lord.
3
SPEAKER_01
You ve since had boys.
3
SPEAKER_01
And when you think of them out on the road in a van at 17 going to Sioux Falls, do you think like, I now realize we were quite young.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Every time they get in a van, I worry.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
My son Jacob s in a band, but they ve got one guy in their band who is a car head and keeps that van in tip top shape.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, I don t care where you re driving.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s either 55 or under.
3
SPEAKER_00
Just go slow.
3
SPEAKER_00
Not the advice you d expect a rockstar dad to give you.
3
SPEAKER_01
None of it delivers.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Just the dad, dad.
3
SPEAKER_00
There is no rockstar dad.
3
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s no such thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
Wait, so when did you realize you guys were good?
3
SPEAKER_00
Honestly, I thought we were always good.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay, that s a great answer.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I thought from the very beginning when we started writing songs and as we were getting into punk, it came totally natural to us.
3
SPEAKER_00
And we always had it in our heads to evolve.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I think the bands that are peers at that time, except for like Rancid, because they did evolve.
3
SPEAKER_00
For us, it was like we wanted to evolve.
3
SPEAKER_00
We weren t just listening to punk.
3
SPEAKER_00
We were listening to The Beatles and The Who and having that romance of going, what is going to be our Tommy?
3
SPEAKER_00
What is going to be our Sergeant Pepper?
3
SPEAKER_00
That was always kind of on our mind.
3
SPEAKER_00
Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.
3
SPEAKER_01
Okay, there s like many things we could focus on that are unique and special about Green Day.
3
SPEAKER_01
60 million albums for a punk band s impossible.
3
SPEAKER_01
But the things I think are most interesting to me is the fact that you guys have been together for 40 years.
3
SPEAKER_01
This seems like an impossibility.
3
SPEAKER_01
Just over 30 years.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh.
3
SPEAKER_01
Wikipedia.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I m sorry.
3
SPEAKER_00
Me and Mike have been together for 40 years.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, oops.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, 30 year anniversary of Dookie is this... Yeah, in February 2024.
3
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so there s a lot of elements that can break a band apart.
3
SPEAKER_01
We ve seen all of our favorites.
3
SPEAKER_01
So few of them have made it.
3
SPEAKER_01
Metallica did it somehow.
3
SPEAKER_01
And U2, those two stayed together, but it s certainly an anomaly when bands can last for 30 years.
3
SPEAKER_01
And there s obviously a myriad of different pressures that come in.
3
SPEAKER_01
We already have one.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re picking up Adrienne on the side of the road and they re realizing, oh, this whole thing was about her.
3
SPEAKER_01
Could be pressure number one.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like now there s a new element in focus and all this.
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, that produced like five songs.
3
SPEAKER_00
So, you know, they re like, hey, we got five new songs for our next album.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I read the sweetest thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
You said that you wrote 2,000 light years away and that you ve been writing songs about her for 30 more years.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think that s so fucking sweet.
3
SPEAKER_01
And the moment you send her that song, from the outside, we d all go like, what woman s not going to love getting that song and it s about her?
3
SPEAKER_01
But at that moment, you had some anxiety
3
SPEAKER_01
that like, am I a stalker?
3
SPEAKER_01
I ve written a whole song about her.
3
SPEAKER_01
How s this going to be received?
3
SPEAKER_00
That has crossed my mind more now because of sort of the culture that we live in compared to back then.
3
SPEAKER_00
But I think that some of the stuff, I just thought this is my gift to you.
3
SPEAKER_00
This is what I think.
3
SPEAKER_00
This is how I feel.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m able to express myself and do it in melody and heart.
3
SPEAKER_00
And people do really romantic gestures.
3
SPEAKER_00
But for me, that was
3
SPEAKER_01
That was your soul.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re like, here, here s a peek at me.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so if you like it, you like me.
3
SPEAKER_01
And if you don t like it, you don t like me.
3
SPEAKER_01
The stakes are high because you re going here.
3
SPEAKER_00
It is very vulnerable.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because there are, I would say back then girls that I ve written songs about and it was just like, I better change the lyrics.
3
SPEAKER_00
She was in college in Mankato, Minnesota.
3
SPEAKER_00
She also had a boyfriend.
3
SPEAKER_00
The same one?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, wow.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay, long term.
3
SPEAKER_00
The recipient of the bottle rockets.
3
SPEAKER_00
Poor guy.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
I was sick with just love and I was like losing weight and I didn t really know how it was going to work out, but I sort of knew that we were going to be in each other s lives.
3
SPEAKER_00
You re kind of just waiting for her to not be with that guy, I imagine.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so anyone who s coming into your life in that period is like only going to get so close.
3
SPEAKER_01
Cause you know, somewhere in the back of your mind, like when that day comes, I m running towards that.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I ended up being in Minneapolis for some stuff that you acted like you had to be there for.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
I called her and I knew that she d had.
3
SPEAKER_00
a breakup.
3
SPEAKER_00
You re trying to act not too excited.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I kept calling her.
3
SPEAKER_00
We were on the very first Dookie tour and we were going to play First Avenue and she showed up.
3
SPEAKER_00
Ever since then, we were together.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so forces on a band though.
3
SPEAKER_01
Let s just talk about this transition because
3
SPEAKER_01
as you would know so well, and maybe it exists elsewhere.
3
SPEAKER_01
I ve not been in other many cultures to know, but selling out was a real thing for people.
3
SPEAKER_01
It was the cardinal sin that could be done in that scene.
3
SPEAKER_01
It was a real thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
Fugazi was about the limit that people could accept.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Their popularity is like, any more?
3
SPEAKER_00
That was always there, especially when a band in the punk scene would get popular.
3
SPEAKER_00
All of a sudden the punk rock cops were taking, you know, maximum rock and roll was starting to look.
3
SPEAKER_00
So they re looking at how much your t-shirts are you selling them for?
3
SPEAKER_00
I remember the first time that we went from vinyl to making a CD.
3
SPEAKER_00
They re like, you are pushing a new format on your fans to make more money.
3
SPEAKER_00
And you re like, wow, I m just putting out a CD because that s what everybody listens to on now.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
People don t have record players in the dashboards of their car, but they have CD players.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then the size of the band is getting bigger.
3
SPEAKER_00
So people that are in the scene start to take notice.
3
SPEAKER_00
And especially where we were from, where it was like the socialist political punk rock capital of the country, if not the world, San Francisco, and especially Berkeley.
3
SPEAKER_01
The purity demands were quite high there.
3
SPEAKER_01
Big time.
3
SPEAKER_01
I bring it up because I think if you re listening on the outside and you re like, well, this is preposterous.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re a musician.
3
SPEAKER_01
You d want everyone to hear your music.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I d imagine for you guys, it was a bit of a uncomfortable phase.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, we d gotten into some brawls with people.
3
SPEAKER_00
The worst thing you could call a person back then was a rock star.
3
SPEAKER_00
It was like a bad word.
3
SPEAKER_00
So when someone would say it, it was like fighting.
3
SPEAKER_01
They want to be rock star.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
It was tough.
3
SPEAKER_00
The smart people probably would just moved out of that community, but I stayed.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because when we signed to Reprise, which is Warner s, everyone found out and we re kind of trying to keep it on the down low as much as possible.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then we made the record.
3
SPEAKER_00
Record comes out.
3
SPEAKER_00
It was a bit polarizing with the fans that we had.
3
SPEAKER_00
Day one fans, back where our records were more lo-fi because it was just no money.
3
SPEAKER_00
We were in the studio for like two days.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, this was the first time we got to be in the studio and really explore sonically how big we can make the sound that represents us the best.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so we had Rob Cavallo as our producer.
3
SPEAKER_01
Still, he s the one who just produced Saviors.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Again, a testament to the impossibility that you re still a band 30 years later and you re still working with him.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m just very loyal, sometimes at a fault.
3
SPEAKER_00
We made the record, then it just kept getting bigger.
3
SPEAKER_00
It just didn t stop.
3
SPEAKER_00
When we started kind of becoming the poster boys of the punk revival, that s where I was like, I don t want to be known as that.
3
SPEAKER_00
I just want to be known as Green Day.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so when people started
3
SPEAKER_00
using punk more often and when it came into articles and people talking on MTV and Mainstream radio because as far as those people were concerned in the mainstream media punk was dead.
3
SPEAKER_00
They didn t talk about it Now suddenly it s back with us offspring bad religion and people are just talking about it again that s where the backlash started coming in from the people that were devout and
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, because you make this really insular, sweet thing that defines itself as outcasts and misfits, and you re now giving it to the populace.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Which is hurtful if that was your sanctuary.
3
SPEAKER_01
You don t want to share it with the fucking quarterback from the football team.
3
SPEAKER_01
Totally.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s preposterous in many ways, and yet you can also understand the heartbreak.
3
SPEAKER_00
For me, because I m coming
4
SPEAKER_02
from it as a musician, it is heartbreaking, but good is good.
4
SPEAKER_02
No, a thousand percent.
4
SPEAKER_02
I m with you.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s insane.
4
SPEAKER_02
The limit that was enforced on everyone, but just the simple, if we get emotional about it, when I would go to a show, you could go to a show in any city in America.
4
SPEAKER_02
You would walk in and you liked the people immediately that were at those small hundred person shows.
4
SPEAKER_02
Y all ate the same shit.
4
SPEAKER_02
Half the people were straight edge.
4
SPEAKER_02
You know, all this stuff was happening.
4
SPEAKER_02
It was such community.
4
SPEAKER_02
You felt so embraced.
4
SPEAKER_02
It was the opposite of high school.
4
SPEAKER_02
And now that same group of people, if they love you and want to continue to see you, they are going to have to go to the arena and sit next to the people that they felt less than around.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
This is a precarious thing for them.
4
SPEAKER_00
But they could also see it as, look what my people do.
4
SPEAKER_00
We were right.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
So I don t love that.
4
SPEAKER_02
No, I don t either, but I can empathize with the feeling underneath.
4
SPEAKER_00
Everyone just wants to exclude everyone.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s like, why can t we just all like a thing that s good?
4
SPEAKER_02
Because they had something where they could walk in and feel safe immediately.
4
SPEAKER_02
And now you walk in and it s back to the real world.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s true.
4
SPEAKER_01
There s also some things that I look back on.
4
SPEAKER_01
We had a lot of young women that came to our shows.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that was not as normal.
4
SPEAKER_01
It was mostly dudes.
4
SPEAKER_01
As some of the other punk bands at that time.
4
SPEAKER_01
That was one thing that they made fun of us for.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I m like, dude, this is low key sexism.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, like, I m not complaining.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
But also the punk scene, at least in Detroit, it was kind of the pre-Woke-Woke movement.
4
SPEAKER_02
Everyone was minding their Ps and Qs.
4
SPEAKER_02
Like they were actually quite advanced, I imagine.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yet they still had that thing, which is counter to it.
4
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
4
SPEAKER_02
So by 23 years old, you re now married.
4
SPEAKER_02
You have a child and you re an enormous rock star.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
Oh my God.
4
SPEAKER_02
To be doing all of these major highlight things at once had to be challenging.
4
SPEAKER_02
A lot.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m just really impulsive.
4
SPEAKER_01
Adrian came back into my life.
4
SPEAKER_01
It was just a situation where I want to spend my life with this person.
4
SPEAKER_01
I ve been waiting for four years for her to be available and I was available.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so we hooked up.
4
SPEAKER_01
There s nothing holding us back anymore.
4
SPEAKER_02
Well, I would imagine with that gap of time that you waited, I d be ready for marriage of three weeks into dating because I ve really been in this for four years.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, she moved to California.
4
SPEAKER_01
She didn t give her parents the whole story of why.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think she was just out of college trying to find a job, thinking maybe she d go to New York, testing the waters.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, it was bullshit.
4
SPEAKER_01
She came out and she moved in with me.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then three weeks later, she called her parents and said, we re getting married.
4
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then almost immediately after that, I m pregnant, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
Like immediately.
4
SPEAKER_01
Our friends pitched in and got us a nice hotel room for our honeymoon.
4
SPEAKER_01
The next morning after our wedding, she s like, you know, I m not feeling that good.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, well, we haven t exactly been careful.
4
SPEAKER_01
You want to stop by Safeway?
4
SPEAKER_01
And so she did and she took three tests.
4
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
4
SPEAKER_01
Triple sure.
4
SPEAKER_01
It was like, I guess we re going to be parents.
4
SPEAKER_01
Whoa.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
4
23.
4
SPEAKER_02
And also you re a rock star for the first time.
4
SPEAKER_01
Uh, yeah, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
This was in months of the record came out in February.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was married in July.
4
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
4
SPEAKER_02
How do we handle all this change?
4
SPEAKER_02
Oh, so I m writing that you have some addiction stuff.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
Are we brothers in that?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was a drinker back then, but not a big one.
4
SPEAKER_01
I used to smoke a lot of weed.
4
SPEAKER_01
Well, green day.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
Oh my god, I don t think I ever knew that.
4
SPEAKER_00
He and Mike loved weed.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, we smoked weed and we listened to Suzie and the Banshees and then we were like, this is what our name should be.
4
SPEAKER_02
Did you like the psychedelic furs?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
Honestly, when I started drinking a lot, it was due to stage fright.
4
SPEAKER_01
No kidding.
4
SPEAKER_01
We were always drinking 40s and it was the thing to do.
4
SPEAKER_01
You could definitely see people that were our age that were way deep into addiction already.
4
SPEAKER_01
As time went on and I was in my early 20s, all my friends that had no responsibility were going to the bars.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so I would go meet them and I had a world of responsibility and would go meet them at the bars.
4
SPEAKER_01
That was really immature.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, you were 23, of course it was immature.
4
SPEAKER_00
You weren t mature.
4
SPEAKER_00
Your frontal lobe was not even fully developed yet.
4
SPEAKER_01
Right.
4
SPEAKER_01
But my wife was really the opposite.
4
SPEAKER_01
She understood what a child s schedule needs, how to know if they re sick before they re even being sick.
4
SPEAKER_02
Well, look, you dropped out of high school and she had just graduated college.
4
SPEAKER_02
So you guys are different types.
4
SPEAKER_02
Thank God.
4
SPEAKER_02
She s responsible.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and I was impulsive and spontaneous.
4
SPEAKER_01
And she didn t drink at all.
4
SPEAKER_01
She didn t at all?
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, she drank like in college and high school, but as soon as we had a kid, nothing.
4
SPEAKER_02
And were you experiencing the phenomena of having realized every dream you could have possibly had and then wondering where is the elation that s supposed to accompany this and how do I get that?
4
SPEAKER_02
I m supposed to have that?
4
SPEAKER_01
I always said there s a fine line between celebrating and partying.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like when people are celebrating, there s some joy, there s something that happened that was like, you know, whether it s like- Worthy of commemorating with a celebration.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, a bachelor party, a record that just came out, you know, doing a movie for the first time, we were at the after parties and blah, blah, blah.
4
SPEAKER_01
But then like partying has like a darkness to it.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, because I think people get to a certain point where they ve had a bad day.
4
SPEAKER_01
I ve earned this.
4
SPEAKER_01
This is the relief and I m going to make sure I m puking in the morning.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think I had a mixture of both.
4
SPEAKER_01
There was much to be grateful for and having a good time and working hard and putting out a new album.
4
SPEAKER_01
But there would be like the stress about making a record where you re working so hard on how the hell am I going to follow up Dookie?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
4
SPEAKER_01
The pressure of that.
4
SPEAKER_01
must be daunting as hell.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that s when the partying kind of kicked in in that darkness.
4
SPEAKER_01
You need an escape from the pressure.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
I would spend a lot of hours down at the bar.
4
SPEAKER_01
I d go out and tell my wife, hey, me and my friends are going to go get some drinks.
4
SPEAKER_01
And in my mind, I m going.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m going to go down there, I m going to have a couple beers, and then I m going to come home.
4
SPEAKER_01
Maybe stop at Taco Bell on the way home.
4
SPEAKER_02
Bring her back something special.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, but next thing you know, we re closing down the bar.
4
SPEAKER_01
They know who I am, so they ll keep the bar open for another hour.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then we re just shit-faced.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I come home, and then the next morning, I couldn t get out of bed.
4
SPEAKER_01
You have a son that s been up way before you.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then the shame sits in.
4
SPEAKER_01
The shame.
4
SPEAKER_02
And now you got to drink more because the shame s there.
4
SPEAKER_01
Well, I would try to get my shit together.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, that s the last time.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then either something celebratory or some kind of release that I needed to have.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it just was the cycle that started off on the weekends, but then all of a sudden you d be on tour.
4
SPEAKER_01
I would get really bad stage fright.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I had to have a couple of beers before we go on.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then that turned into seven beers before we would go on.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then you get the adrenaline and you get off stage and you keep the drinking going.
4
SPEAKER_02
Well, this is the other thing I wanted to ask you about is that crazy dichotomy between what you experience on the stage.
4
SPEAKER_02
And then nine minutes later, you re in your hotel room.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
And you re like, what do I do now?
4
SPEAKER_02
I don t think it s a natural experience for a human to have.
4
SPEAKER_02
And I don t think it s super easy to navigate that enormous chasm between that experience and then back in a hotel room by yourself.
4
SPEAKER_01
On tour, there was times I would go into my room, I d sit there, and I d know that my bandmates and crew were in the bar.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yes, yes.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I m sitting there, and you re just, like, white-knuckling it.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then I m like, ah, fuck it.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m going down.
4
SPEAKER_01
And they re like, Billy!
4
SPEAKER_01
It was like, Norm!
4
SPEAKER_01
You know?
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, everyone s happy to see you.
4
SPEAKER_02
Here, let me go have a drink.
4
SPEAKER_02
You need something to like lower you back down to reality.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s not an easy transition, I don t think.
4
SPEAKER_02
I can t even imagine being in a stadium with that amount of energy and humanness and the power of it.
4
SPEAKER_01
I did five years of sobriety.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then I fell off, and now I m sober again.
4
SPEAKER_01
Is your life generally better when you re sober?
4
SPEAKER_01
Fuck yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
Especially now, the second time I ve been sober, all alcohol does for me is get in my way.
4
SPEAKER_01
It gets in the way of my relationships.
4
SPEAKER_01
It gets in the way of being productive in my music.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it gets in my way of enjoying the things that I like now, being a 51-year-old man.
4
SPEAKER_01
Even just taking a hike in the park, I get more gratification from.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
And also don t you think like once you start drinking, you re basically just hitting pause and any forward momentum in any relationship, any forward momentum in your life.
4
SPEAKER_02
And as you re running out of time, you re like, I can t really hit pause.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
Then all of a sudden you re like, I ve got to be the Phoenix rising from the ashes, you know, cigarette butts and tequila and beer and whatever human garbage can that I feel like right now, you can get romantic about that part.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
Cause then all of a sudden you re like, see, I could do it.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then you re like, well, you re just going to do it again.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
You re on fucking repeat.
4
SPEAKER_02
That s all that s happening.
4
SPEAKER_02
So of the pressures.
4
SPEAKER_02
Again, it s astounding you guys have been together for so long.
4
SPEAKER_02
There s the fame, there s the success, there s marriages, there s whatever, everyone s relationship with substance.
4
SPEAKER_02
What of those elements has been the most challenging?
4
SPEAKER_02
And also let s just go, you basically got married to someone at 10 years old and you re just praying you grow in symbiosis.
5
SPEAKER_02
ways where you can still coexist and create together.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_02
You and Mike, right?
5
SPEAKER_02
Like this is a lot to ask from a relationship that you would all grow in a way that stays compatible.
5
SPEAKER_03
That s a hard one to answer.
5
SPEAKER_03
We ve had a very similar experience going through life and whatever happened with Green Day, we had all done together every single step of the way.
5
SPEAKER_03
Sometimes it could be as simple as going, I got a new song.
5
SPEAKER_03
You want to hear it?
5
SPEAKER_03
And then I ll do a demo and I ll play it.
5
SPEAKER_03
They get the, fuck yeah.
5
SPEAKER_03
That has never left.
5
SPEAKER_03
That s a blessing.
5
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_03
They re like, that song is sick, bro.
5
SPEAKER_03
You know, and then all right, well, I ll write 11 more.
5
SPEAKER_03
And then we get together and jam and shape the song and arrange it, see what it needs.
5
SPEAKER_03
Leave Mike and Trey at their
5
SPEAKER_03
parts and things like that to it.
5
SPEAKER_03
We re writing bass lines and Trey writing some of his signature, amazing drum parts.
5
SPEAKER_03
And then all of a sudden it becomes a green day.
5
SPEAKER_03
And I just think, we just love what we do.
5
SPEAKER_03
It s hard work.
5
SPEAKER_03
Don t get me wrong.
5
SPEAKER_03
And it s stressful.
5
SPEAKER_03
But when we end up with like an album that we re proud of, that s our addiction.
5
SPEAKER_03
Right.
5
SPEAKER_01
And that s the bond.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, but have you guys had to learn how to talk to each other and communicate?
5
SPEAKER_01
Like we have, for sure.
5
SPEAKER_01
There s been so many almost, we re not doing this anymore moments.
5
SPEAKER_01
We ve had to learn how each other needs to receive information.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_03
There s definitely times where I ve been kind of a dick to try to get my way about something.
5
SPEAKER_03
And there s times where I feel like I m not being heard or underappreciated, undervalued.
5
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, and then I could say the same thing about them.
5
SPEAKER_03
We are always able to have those deeper conversations about feelings.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_02
Well, it s the thing that probably brought you together initially.
5
SPEAKER_02
There s something so beautiful about those friendships that start at 10 years old.
5
SPEAKER_02
There s a level of built-in goodwill and benefit of the doubt that you maybe can t really offer to people that enter your life later.
5
SPEAKER_03
Inevitably, we ve always been able to hear each other and been there for each other.
5
SPEAKER_03
When times got hard for any of us, whether it s been like a divorce or death in the family or someone has gotten ill, we ve always tried to just be there.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s really unique.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_02
Did you watch Some Kind of Monster?
5
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
5
SPEAKER_02
Did you find that enthralling?
5
SPEAKER_02
Just really quick, that s the Metallica doc, and they have to bring in a psychologist to help the band.
5
SPEAKER_03
The psychologist was a good call.
5
SPEAKER_03
It was hard to watch.
5
SPEAKER_03
That s what I would imagine.
5
SPEAKER_03
Because I always thought of them as being like the mighty Metallica.
5
SPEAKER_03
The closest thing we had to Led Zeppelin.
5
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_03
There was more of a mystery and mystique about them.
5
SPEAKER_03
There was just like that muscle of like being Metallica.
5
SPEAKER_03
All of a sudden you re watching this shit go down and you re like,
5
SPEAKER_03
Oh my God, these are real people having real problems.
5
SPEAKER_02
And Hatfield in particular, I m like, oh wow, yeah, that man.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_02
They re like man s man.
5
SPEAKER_02
He s fucking hunting boar in Russia.
5
SPEAKER_02
But he s also drinking a half gallon of vodka and he s sad and miserable and lonely and scared.
5
SPEAKER_02
Whoa.
5
SPEAKER_03
Lars trying to navigate through that and then having a member of the band quit, him just trying to be the guy to pull it together.
5
SPEAKER_02
Hold everything together.
5
SPEAKER_02
He s like the person in the marriage that wanted to fight for it and a lot of people didn t want to.
5
SPEAKER_02
That s what it felt like to me.
5
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, well, that s sometimes why people fight.
5
SPEAKER_03
because they re fighting to keep it together.
5
SPEAKER_03
They re not fighting to fall apart.
5
SPEAKER_03
In a good relationship, when you get into those deep arguments that you get hurt feelings, you know, I m so sorry I disrespected you, but just know that I m fighting to keep this together, not fall apart.
5
SPEAKER_03
Right.
5
SPEAKER_03
That s important to know a lot of times.
5
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_03
It was a tough watch just seeing them so vulnerable.
5
SPEAKER_02
I m so delighted they released that though.
5
SPEAKER_02
I think that s like the most helpful thing they could do.
5
SPEAKER_03
It was just like right out in the open.
5
SPEAKER_03
And when they started the documentary, they had no idea where it was going to go.
5
SPEAKER_03
No.
5
SPEAKER_03
They thought they were documenting the new Metallica album.
5
SPEAKER_02
They re going to sit down and write a fucking awesome album.
5
SPEAKER_02
And that was going to be that.
5
SPEAKER_02
They re in the Presidio.
5
SPEAKER_02
This is going to be cool.
5
SPEAKER_02
So glad we ll be capturing this.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_02
And then no.
5
SPEAKER_02
And it s funny because whose decision was it to go,
5
SPEAKER_02
Keep rolling the cameras.
5
SPEAKER_02
Well, Berlinger, I think that s the name of the documentarian.
5
SPEAKER_02
He is incredible.
5
SPEAKER_02
I think he also did the, my brother s keeper.
5
SPEAKER_02
He s a deep fucking, like he was the man for the job on that.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
5
SPEAKER_02
So you mentioned it, of course, after Dookie, there must be anxiety.
5
SPEAKER_02
I m curious what the emotional journey is from like Dookie to American idiot.
5
SPEAKER_02
Because it happens again in a way.
5
SPEAKER_02
I want to know right before American Idiot, have you started to accept the insane crazy thing happened?
5
SPEAKER_02
That s that, maybe you re at peace.
5
SPEAKER_02
Does this come out of nowhere?
5
SPEAKER_02
How do you deal with all that?
5
SPEAKER_02
The second wave of mass appeal.
5
SPEAKER_02
We put out Dookie as an album.
5
SPEAKER_03
It was just phenomenally huge.
5
SPEAKER_03
And then Insomniac.
5
SPEAKER_03
It s interesting when it comes to metrics for people, because the next record sold, I don t know, over a million.
5
SPEAKER_03
When the gatekeepers are looking at it as something that s not successful,
5
SPEAKER_03
all of a sudden you re burdened by your own success.
5
SPEAKER_02
So you re trying to get away from it.
5
SPEAKER_02
I could almost come to hate that album if I were you.
5
SPEAKER_02
Like, fuck that thing fucked us up.
5
SPEAKER_02
We re selling a million and people are disappointed.
5
SPEAKER_02
Why don t we call the record Dookie?
5
SPEAKER_02
We just named it after shit.
5
SPEAKER_03
But we ended up having songs on that, like Brain Stew, which was a big song for us.
5
SPEAKER_03
And then we did Nimrod, and we were trying to push our boundaries more, getting into stuff that s just different rhythms and acoustic song, like Time of Your Life came out on that record.
5
SPEAKER_02
Let s take one second for that song, because this is an interesting story.
5
SPEAKER_02
You were at a party with a girl, a college party, and dudes pulled out an acoustic guitar or something.
5
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, it was a bunch of like ponytail guy types.
5
SPEAKER_02
But you weirdly walked away from it and you re like, I kind of want to try this acoustic guitar thing.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_02
And then this song again, you can t aim for something like this.
5
SPEAKER_02
It happens.
5
SPEAKER_02
And then to see it, like Monica was just saying on the walk in, she s like, I m pretty sure my chorus sang that song.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_02
And I said, of course you did.
5
SPEAKER_02
God, I wish I had a snare drum right now.
5
SPEAKER_02
You like it.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s not that good if you don t like it.
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, it s the second time you ve said it in a while.
5
SPEAKER_02
But he hadn t heard it.
5
SPEAKER_01
I know, I know.
5
SPEAKER_02
But anyways, of course she sang it.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_02
And as you said, it s played at wedding ceremonies and funerals and bar mitzvahs.
5
SPEAKER_02
That is a thrilling experience.
5
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, and the song, it s about sort of a bittersweet breakup and trying to have a level head about it.
5
SPEAKER_03
This is a goodbye.
5
SPEAKER_03
You know what?
5
SPEAKER_02
It s kind of similar to Taylor Swift s The One.
5
SPEAKER_03
I wish I knew more.
5
SPEAKER_02
Do you know that song?
5
SPEAKER_02
I don t.
5
SPEAKER_02
Okay, because I have two little girls, so I m like now exposed to all of it.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_02
And that song is fucking awesome.
5
SPEAKER_01
There s so many.
5
SPEAKER_02
And the lyrics are, it would have been so fun if you were the one.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, pretty much.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s this bittersweet song, like, we re not going to do that, but I would have loved it if it could have been you.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_02
But it s not, and that s that.
5
SPEAKER_02
There s something beautifully bittersweet about it.
5
SPEAKER_02
And I think it just caused people to sort of associate it with
5
SPEAKER_02
memories.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
5
SPEAKER_02
And hopefully being able to, cause I ve even heard you talk about it, that it s very impactful song if you ve lost somebody, because what it urges you to do is just be so fucking grateful for the bubble you had.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s so tempting to focus on not having the bubble anymore, but just urging everyone to go like, yeah, I got that for a minute.
5
SPEAKER_02
Maybe I m making it more than it was in your head.
5
SPEAKER_02
But to me,
5
SPEAKER_03
It was very important for me when I wrote the song to say, I have hurt feelings, but no hard feelings.
5
SPEAKER_03
It was trying to be as level-headed as I can about a split between two people that meant something to each other.
5
SPEAKER_03
Those things can end pretty ugly.
5
SPEAKER_03
You have a bad memory.
5
SPEAKER_03
So I remember the first time I played it live in front of people, I was scared to death.
5
SPEAKER_03
We were playing.
5
SPEAKER_03
Somewhere on the East Coast.
5
SPEAKER_03
Was the old punk rock shadow that said, don t be a sellout, yelling in your head.
5
SPEAKER_03
Totally.
5
SPEAKER_03
And I was like, okay, this is what we re going to do.
5
SPEAKER_03
Cause the song was out and it was getting bigger and bigger and bigger.
5
SPEAKER_03
And so I was like, well, I got to start playing this live.
5
SPEAKER_03
So I go, I ll play it in the encore.
5
SPEAKER_03
I m going to walk off stage.
5
SPEAKER_03
And then when I walked off stage, I pounded two beers and then I put my guitar on.
5
SPEAKER_03
Your two pieces of armor.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Two beers and then the guitar is the armor.
5
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, my brass knuckles.
5
SPEAKER_03
So then that was the first time I did it and people loved it.
5
SPEAKER_03
And I go, well, maybe I ll just have one beer the next time I do this.
5
SPEAKER_02
For people who might not be knowing that song.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s a good song.
5
SPEAKER_02
So pretty.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s so pretty.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s outrageous.
5
SPEAKER_02
I was like getting emotional listening to it.
5
SPEAKER_00
I ll do the harmony.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yes, great.
5
SPEAKER_00
You bastard.
6
SPEAKER_00
But that song, do you think, I mean, not the first one, but that one is the one that really became like on the radio every four minutes.
6
SPEAKER_00
Pop radio.
6
SPEAKER_02
It transcended all the normal barriers.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it was something that I became so proud of because when I think about some of my favorite songwriters, whether it s Paul Westerberg or Elvis Costello, they had that in them.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I think if you really want to test your merit, it s how deep are you willing to go and how vulnerable of a position you put yourself in.
6
SPEAKER_01
Vulnerable, that s the key word.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, stop hiding behind the distortion.
6
SPEAKER_01
You have to go to a place that you re afraid of going to.
6
SPEAKER_02
Listen, if you just stayed there with the distortion, that s the teenage life.
6
SPEAKER_02
And it means you re not moving forward.
6
SPEAKER_02
The distortion s coming down and down and down, hopefully, as all those things that made us scared to be vulnerable.
6
SPEAKER_02
You re further away from them.
6
SPEAKER_02
If you re not doing what you do with this song, you re just stuck.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_02
But there is a voice, right?
6
SPEAKER_02
The shadow s going like, we re jumping the shark on this one.
6
SPEAKER_02
We re going to lose everyone we have.
6
SPEAKER_02
Everyone s right.
6
SPEAKER_02
I was a pussy the whole time.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I know.
6
SPEAKER_01
I m exposed.
6
SPEAKER_01
And here it is.
6
SPEAKER_01
This is what you wanted.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
I m at the gallows.
6
SPEAKER_01
Chop my fucking head off now.
6
SPEAKER_02
Everything you thought I was.
6
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
6
SPEAKER_02
I wrote down things that you and I seem to be both into.
6
SPEAKER_02
Champs.
6
SPEAKER_02
I m fucking obsessed with champs.
6
SPEAKER_01
Oh, my wife started a chimp sanctuary.
6
SPEAKER_01
I know.
6
SPEAKER_00
Amazing.
6
SPEAKER_01
You should come check it out.
6
SPEAKER_01
Project Chimps, and it s in Blue Ridge Mountains in Georgia.
6
SPEAKER_01
And it started off, it was a gorilla sanctuary, but her and a bunch of other people with my help too, Kat Von D got involved.
6
SPEAKER_01
Judy Greer is involved also, her and her husband, Dean Johnson.
6
SPEAKER_01
And we started this sanctuary.
6
SPEAKER_01
Some of these chimps have been tested on, whether it s makeup.
6
SPEAKER_01
They ve been in these six by six cages their whole life.
6
SPEAKER_01
They set up these like suites where there s still an enclosure, but it s twice as big as this room for like four or five chimps.
6
SPEAKER_01
But there s an open door that they go out to and there s over 200 acres for them to frolic on.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, to frolic on.
6
SPEAKER_01
And whenever they decide to come back in, they open the door and they come back in.
6
SPEAKER_01
And some of it s the first time they ve ever put their feet on dirt and grass.
6
SPEAKER_01
Oh, and some of them are in their 20s.
6
SPEAKER_02
Have you had any escape?
6
SPEAKER_02
Nope.
6
SPEAKER_02
That s shocking because you know, the LA Zoo has the chimps of the Mahali.
6
SPEAKER_02
That s the name of the enclosure.
6
SPEAKER_02
They spent a gazillion dollars designing it with the best zoologists in the world.
6
SPEAKER_02
They built it for years.
6
SPEAKER_02
They put the chimps in.
6
SPEAKER_02
Day one, one was out in six hours.
6
SPEAKER_00
Oh my God.
6
SPEAKER_02
In the LA Zoo.
6
SPEAKER_02
Oh my God.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yes, and then.
6
SPEAKER_02
They re like, okay, we figured out what we did wrong.
6
SPEAKER_02
We can t have that branch that close to that.
6
SPEAKER_02
Fix that.
6
SPEAKER_02
Two days later, two got out.
6
SPEAKER_02
You re not smart enough to keep a chimp in.
6
SPEAKER_02
I m shocked none have gotten out.
6
SPEAKER_01
No, there s only one link between us and them and they ve probably got the better link.
6
SPEAKER_02
Have you watched Chimp Empire?
6
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
6
SPEAKER_01
So good.
6
SPEAKER_01
Whoa, what a talk.
6
SPEAKER_01
That whole chimp system of the hierarchy, the big colony, and then this smaller group of chimps that come in, they need food.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s like, we got to get ahold of that tree.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s a life or death situation.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s also human.
6
SPEAKER_02
The weight of the alpha, it s just a miserable fucking existence.
6
SPEAKER_02
It is.
6
SPEAKER_02
They need sweetness so much, they adopt these orphans, the alphas.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s the only outlet they have for any vulnerability or kindness or love.
6
SPEAKER_02
And you re like, oh, that s men.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
And then there s the paranoia of knowing that there s this other chimp that s ready to make a coup at any moment.
6
SPEAKER_01
At all times.
6
SPEAKER_02
That s all he s thinking.
6
SPEAKER_02
Jackson, maybe.
6
SPEAKER_02
I don t know if that was the rival, but yes, it s just all around you.
6
SPEAKER_02
And then when the other troop comes in, you re first one in.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_02
Ooh, what an existence.
6
SPEAKER_02
Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.
6
SPEAKER_02
Okay, Serena Williams is his biggest fan ever.
6
SPEAKER_02
Every time she s been anywhere playing, she leaves matches early to come see.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_02
Number one fan.
6
SPEAKER_00
That s awesome.
6
SPEAKER_02
Her number one song is Disappearing Boy.
6
SPEAKER_02
She requests it every time.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yep, we have to play it every time she s there.
6
SPEAKER_02
That s so sweet.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, she s great.
6
SPEAKER_00
Dying to have her on as well.
6
SPEAKER_00
Have you been surprised by anyone who s a huge fan?
6
SPEAKER_01
Oh, Gandolfini.
6
SPEAKER_01
Oh, wow.
6
SPEAKER_01
James Gandolfini was a huge fan of Dookie and would listen to it in his trailer while he was filming The Sopranos.
6
SPEAKER_00
Oh, that s amazing.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I was like, I don t care if anybody else likes us.
6
SPEAKER_01
Tony Soprano.
6
SPEAKER_01
Tony Soprano trumps everybody.
6
SPEAKER_02
Who loves Green Day.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
That s pretty special.
6
SPEAKER_02
Okay, so Saviors.
6
SPEAKER_02
Also, I just want to say that the father of all, that track is so fucking nasty.
6
SPEAKER_02
Speaking of your drummer.
6
SPEAKER_01
Oh, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_02
That s one of my favorite songs we ve ever put out.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s so nasty.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_02
In the best way.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_02
The fact that you were listening to Motown and stuff as you were going in to record that album and incorporating and infusing the dust of that is incredible.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, thank you.
6
SPEAKER_02
I love the way Trey plays on that song.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s great.
6
SPEAKER_02
Okay, so Saviors, 14th studio album, recorded in London and in LA with Rob, who we talked about already.
6
SPEAKER_02
Why there?
6
SPEAKER_02
Is it fun?
6
SPEAKER_02
I have a parallel question, which is writer s block, inspiration, how on earth do you nurture that thing?
6
SPEAKER_02
And then I got curious immediately as if going somewhere and getting away from everything that makes you comfortable, part of that process.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, we just wanted a break from being in America and doing the same thing over and over again.
6
SPEAKER_01
I love British music.
6
SPEAKER_01
I love British rock and roll, whether it s the British Invasion to punk rock to Britpop.
6
SPEAKER_01
I wanted to breathe that air and be in that.
6
SPEAKER_01
And then you get this romantic feeling.
6
SPEAKER_01
You know, I would walk to Regent s Park every day, and then I would walk to Rack Studios.
6
SPEAKER_02
What are some things that were recorded there?
6
SPEAKER_02
Did The Who record there?
6
SPEAKER_01
Like, what nostalgia are you
6
SPEAKER_01
Mickey Most, which was a big producer.
6
SPEAKER_01
He did a lot of Suzy Quatro.
6
SPEAKER_01
I mean, everybody s recorded there through the years.
6
SPEAKER_01
Liam Gallagher, he s there a lot.
6
SPEAKER_01
I didn t want to go to Abbey Road.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s too much pressure or something.
6
SPEAKER_01
You made the two greatest rock albums of all time.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s a little hard to live up to that.
6
SPEAKER_01
That was too much of the shadows.
6
SPEAKER_02
I can definitely believe that.
6
SPEAKER_02
I don t want to be in here.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_02
The bar has been set in here way too high.
6
SPEAKER_01
So we went to Rack.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s a great studio.
6
SPEAKER_01
We recorded one batch of songs.
6
SPEAKER_01
How much of the new record have you heard?
6
SPEAKER_02
I ve heard four of the songs, and I ve watched the video for The American Dream Is Killing Me.
6
SPEAKER_02
Very cool video.
6
SPEAKER_02
You went the zombie route.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
The song has politics and it s topical.
6
SPEAKER_01
But when I think of The American Dream Is Killing Me, I was thinking like, this sounds like a horror movie.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s like The Purge.
6
SPEAKER_01
We were like, well, let s just dress up as zombies and it s before Halloween.
6
SPEAKER_01
So we had a lot of fun making that.
6
SPEAKER_01
Oh, I bet.
6
SPEAKER_01
No one likes to spend money on music videos anymore.
6
SPEAKER_01
Right.
6
SPEAKER_01
We spent our own money.
6
SPEAKER_01
What else are we going to spend our money on?
6
SPEAKER_01
Let s make something that lasts forever, that people are going to want to see.
6
SPEAKER_01
Instead of like, well, I mean, I like old cars, but I mean, I have enough old cars.
6
SPEAKER_01
But we released it as a single and we released another sort of B-side single as like a one-two punch.
6
SPEAKER_01
Green Day, we re back.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_02
And then now you re going on a stadium tour around the world.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_02
And how have you learned to do those tours?
6
SPEAKER_02
Do you plan differently for them?
6
SPEAKER_02
There s bigger production.
6
SPEAKER_01
We ll do like a week of looking at new stuff.
6
SPEAKER_01
Gadgets.
6
SPEAKER_01
But as long as it doesn t take away from the live experience of this is my guitar.
6
SPEAKER_01
Check it out.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
6
SPEAKER_01
You don t want to be overshadowed by anything.
6
SPEAKER_01
No, you know, I m not going to come out of a cocoon.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
Come out of a cocoon.
6
SPEAKER_01
Stonehenge comes down.
6
SPEAKER_02
That s a Spinal Tap reference.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
It takes a lot.
6
SPEAKER_01
We re going out with Smashing Pumpkins.
6
SPEAKER_01
Thrilling.
6
SPEAKER_01
Rancid and the Linda Lindas.
6
SPEAKER_02
That s in the US.
6
SPEAKER_02
And then you have other batch of bands that ll join you in Europe.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
We re playing with different bands everywhere.
6
SPEAKER_02
I ll never forget the first time I saw Smashing Pumpkins, Latin Quarter, Detroit, 93.
6
SPEAKER_02
What an experience.
6
SPEAKER_02
Again, talking about that emotion I was craving, they just brought it.
6
SPEAKER_02
They were like, it can be all things.
6
SPEAKER_02
It can be almost all emotion.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I remember where I was at the first time I heard Bullet With Butterfly Wings.
6
SPEAKER_01
I was in my car driving and it came on and I was like, this is gonna be huge.
6
SPEAKER_01
This song rocks so hard.
6
SPEAKER_01
And then they came out with 1979 and I was like,
6
SPEAKER_01
This song is going to be huge.
6
SPEAKER_01
What a difference between this aggression and intense feelings in one song and this other sense of when you can do nostalgia the right way, like a song like 1979, it s not just some kind of rehashing or trying to hold on to your youth, but acknowledging it.
6
SPEAKER_01
Billy, he s a great songwriter.
6
SPEAKER_02
Who during your run at the top would you hear and think like, oh, you know, there s been some famous rivalries that brought out the best of a lot of people, the most famous being the Beatles and the Beach Boys, or many of these bands are inspired by each other, threatened by each other, animated and driven by each other.
6
SPEAKER_02
Hearing the Smashing Pumpkins,
7
SPEAKER_01
In the 90s, were you like, oh boy, okay, I got to be extra good at my job?
7
SPEAKER_01
I think so.
7
SPEAKER_01
Not because you even want to beat them, but you just want to rise to whatever they ve just done.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_02
I think there, there was some of that with like the offspring at the time.
7
SPEAKER_02
And there s that with Oasis.
7
SPEAKER_02
You re hearing something that they re doing that, you know, you haven t touched yet.
7
SPEAKER_02
Sometimes you listen to a song and you hear something that no one else hears.
7
SPEAKER_02
With Oasis, it was like, if you haven t been to England, people like to sing.
7
SPEAKER_02
He wrote a perfect album for people to sing along to.
7
SPEAKER_02
Right.
7
SPEAKER_02
It was a different kind of stadium song that he started, Noel and Oasis and Liam.
7
SPEAKER_01
Were you sad when Shane McGowan died the other day?
7
SPEAKER_01
Did you care about the Pogues?
7
SPEAKER_01
I was, but it s not like I didn t see it coming.
7
SPEAKER_01
I was almost shocked he was still alive from being dead on us.
7
SPEAKER_01
I was like, oh, I guess I would have assumed we lost him earlier, but it did bring me back to my deep fucking love, particularly when he and Sinead O Connor had paired up.
7
SPEAKER_01
That stuff was insane.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_02
And the fact that they both passed these Irish icons in the same year, that was intense.
7
SPEAKER_01
And it reminds you that so often the catalyst is so heavy.
7
SPEAKER_01
What you re loving and feeling is the product of great trauma and struggle and sadness.
7
SPEAKER_01
And it s all in there.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s heartbreaking.
7
SPEAKER_01
And the weight of it and managing it and having the right dose of it, I feel like is the actual art form.
7
SPEAKER_01
And that s something you guys have done, weirdly.
7
SPEAKER_01
You ve kept the right amount of it.
7
SPEAKER_01
but not been buried by it.
7
SPEAKER_01
Right.
7
SPEAKER_01
I don t know why I started thinking about Sinead O Connor.
7
SPEAKER_01
Let s just think about her.
7
SPEAKER_01
Did you see the doc on her?
7
SPEAKER_01
I did, it was great.
7
SPEAKER_01
I cried uncontrollably.
7
SPEAKER_01
My wife started filming me.
7
SPEAKER_01
She came into a room and I was just like uncontrollably sobbing when she would get on stage and let it fucking rip despite everything.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_02
It s very challenging for people to be that honest about everything.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
7
SPEAKER_02
And there was a quote that I heard when she was in an interview with Shane, they started talking about death.
7
SPEAKER_02
And she goes, I m not afraid of being dead.
7
SPEAKER_02
I m afraid of dying and the process of that.
7
SPEAKER_02
Being dead, you re dead.
7
SPEAKER_02
You re not there to be upset.
7
SPEAKER_02
Hopefully you ll be into a new spiritual world after that.
7
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, damn, that was so honest.
7
SPEAKER_01
She was insanely honest.
7
SPEAKER_01
fucking beautiful and powerful.
7
SPEAKER_02
So important to people our age at that time to have someone that came out on MTV, beautiful, singing this heart-wrenching song, Nothing Compares to You, completely bald.
7
SPEAKER_02
This was a moment that was like really important.
7
SPEAKER_02
She was a revolutionist.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so the four songs I ve heard are brilliant.
7
SPEAKER_01
They re you guys.
7
SPEAKER_01
Everything is still perfect, shockingly.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s truly, truly
7
SPEAKER_01
applaudable that you guys have been doing it and never losing your direction and always figuring out how whatever your secret sauce is of staying hungry enough and staying creatively inspired.
7
SPEAKER_01
I don t know how you do that, but it s impressive.
7
SPEAKER_01
Thanks.
7
SPEAKER_02
It s always about the fundamentals.
7
SPEAKER_02
I love punk rock.
7
SPEAKER_02
I listen to it every day, whether it s new bands, old bands.
7
SPEAKER_02
It s weird.
7
SPEAKER_02
I live in a pretty nice house.
7
SPEAKER_02
I m 51 years old and I still listen to punk rock like every day.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_02
That always fuels me to keep the vitality going.
7
SPEAKER_01
When s the last time you listened to Tortoise?
7
SPEAKER_01
Millions living will be dead.
7
SPEAKER_01
I never got into Tortoise.
7
SPEAKER_01
We interviewed Fred Armisen, who was in... Trench Mouth.
7
SPEAKER_01
We played with them.
7
SPEAKER_01
Oh, you did?
7
SPEAKER_02
In Beloit, Wisconsin.
7
SPEAKER_02
Back to Beloit?
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_02
In Beloit, Wisconsin, we played with Fred s band, Trench Mouth.
7
SPEAKER_01
No shit.
7
SPEAKER_01
Well, he was saying for them, Tortoise was the big threat.
7
SPEAKER_01
It was like, how did this band do that?
7
SPEAKER_01
And just having read a quote from him saying that, I was like, oh my God, Tortoise.
7
SPEAKER_01
I love them so much.
7
SPEAKER_01
Why haven t I listened to them in 20 years?
7
SPEAKER_01
And then I had two weeks of just listening to Tortoise every day.
7
SPEAKER_01
I love going back and remembering how in love I was with these things.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s so fun.
7
SPEAKER_01
Okay, well, Billy Joe, this has been so exciting and fun, and I hope everybody gets Saviors, and I hope everyone goes and sees you on tour, because it s the show of a lifetime, and you guys are fucking awesome.
7
SPEAKER_01
Oh, the last thing I wanted to say about you.
7
SPEAKER_01
Do you ever think of ZZ Top?
7
SPEAKER_01
As a three-piece?
7
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
7
SPEAKER_01
Power trio?
7
SPEAKER_01
To make that much sound with three people.
7
SPEAKER_01
So ZZ Top is only three people, which almost seems impossible.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
And you guys are very similar.
7
SPEAKER_02
Well, Billy Gibbons is one of the best rock blues guitar players of all time, and he knows how to fill that space.
7
SPEAKER_02
It s his style that makes it work.
7
SPEAKER_02
You re in a very small group of folks though, right?
7
SPEAKER_02
The three-piece?
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, but live, we re not a three-piece.
7
SPEAKER_01
Well, let s not focus on that.
7
SPEAKER_01
It destroys the point I m trying to make.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_02
I mean, we ve made records.
7
SPEAKER_02
Sometimes it s like, well, let s not do guitar solo because we don t have another guitar player to play it.
7
SPEAKER_02
But let s make the three chords be the guitar solo.
7
SPEAKER_02
The way Mike plays bass, there s these hidden melodies that are all over the place.
7
SPEAKER_02
So we re filling space that normally a fourth or fifth member would have.
7
SPEAKER_02
Trey plays off of my vocal.
7
SPEAKER_02
A lot.
7
SPEAKER_02
And then my guitar plays off of his drumming.
7
SPEAKER_02
It s like you re passing it back and forth.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_02
And then Mike is sort of like the doo-wop singer doing the low end kind of thing.
7
SPEAKER_02
It s something that we ve been able to do.
7
SPEAKER_02
Mike and Trey, they have a lot of flash about the way that they play, which is really fun to hear.
7
SPEAKER_02
But if you think about it, The Who, they re a three-piece band.
7
SPEAKER_02
That also is impossible.
7
SPEAKER_02
That s the biggest sound ever.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, they re a four-piece band because they have a lead singer, but the music behind it, the way that Entwistle and Keith Moon were able to play off of each other.
7
SPEAKER_02
Keith Moon is just insane drummer.
7
SPEAKER_02
He was inventing shit that he was doing on the fly.
7
SPEAKER_02
That filled up and makes a bombastic sound.
7
SPEAKER_02
And that s something that we were able to do is three individuals be able to make the biggest noise.
7
SPEAKER_02
Be greater than the sum of your parts.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s like conflict.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s love.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s joy.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s fun.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s not addition.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s multiplication.
7
SPEAKER_01
You double the thing before you and they double the thing behind them.
7
SPEAKER_02
That s the root cause of some of the arguments.
7
SPEAKER_02
You re in my fucking way.
7
SPEAKER_02
Get rid of that damn Tom Tom.
7
SPEAKER_02
You don t need it.
7
SPEAKER_02
I can t even hear myself think.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, totally.
7
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
7
SPEAKER_01
Well, again, this was fantastic.
7
SPEAKER_01
I hope everybody checks out Saviors and sees you live.
7
SPEAKER_01
And I hope you do this as long as you want to.
7
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it s just incredible.
7
SPEAKER_01
Thanks, man.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
Such a pleasure.
7
SPEAKER_01
Please, please, please let Jason know what an indelible mark he made on me and how often I ve thought about him over the last 30 years, having just hung out with him for a couple nights.
7
SPEAKER_01
Awesome, I will for sure.
7
SPEAKER_01
All right, be good.
7
SPEAKER_01
Bye.
7
SPEAKER_01
Stay tuned for the fact check so you can hear all the facts that were wrong.
7
SPEAKER_01
Welcome.
7
SPEAKER_00
Welcome, happy birthday.
7
SPEAKER_01
Happy birthday, happy new year.
7
SPEAKER_00
Welcome to 49, how does it feel?
7
SPEAKER_00
And 2024.
7
SPEAKER_01
I was journaling this morning and numerology.
7
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
Angel numbers.
7
SPEAKER_00
That s right.
7
SPEAKER_01
In a sequence, one, two, three.
7
SPEAKER_00
That s right.
7
SPEAKER_01
Well, the date today was one, two, two, four.
7
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
7
SPEAKER_01
So one plus one is two.
7
SPEAKER_00
Two plus two is four.
7
SPEAKER_00
That s a big angel.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s a big angel moment.
7
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
7
SPEAKER_01
What were they called?
7
SPEAKER_01
Angel?
7
SPEAKER_00
Angel numbers.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you saw one on New Year s Day.
7
SPEAKER_01
Eric had a 111 somehow.
7
SPEAKER_01
It was either maybe a score in spades.
7
SPEAKER_00
Oh, a score.
7
SPEAKER_00
It was a score, you re right.
7
SPEAKER_00
It was a score in spades.
7
SPEAKER_00
Remember spades?
7
SPEAKER_00
111, but yesterday at 111, I happened to look at my phone and I caught it and that was angels.
7
SPEAKER_01
In the nick of a time.
7
SPEAKER_00
It really was, because then I tried to screen grab it, and it moved to 12.
7
SPEAKER_01
Oh my God, to 12.
7
SPEAKER_01
I think it s extra lucky if you catch just a sliver of it.
7
SPEAKER_00
Me too.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_00
Me too.
7
SPEAKER_00
So how are you feeling today?
7
SPEAKER_01
Good.
7
SPEAKER_01
In fact, well, A, I quit dip yesterday.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
7
SPEAKER_01
Right?
7
SPEAKER_01
That s huge.
7
SPEAKER_01
Never super easy.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
So I guess I woke up this morning having not done it yesterday, and I thought, okay.
7
SPEAKER_01
And then I had a sliver of optimism.
7
SPEAKER_00
That s good.
7
SPEAKER_01
I think I get, do I get, I don t know if there s a pattern, but I do feel like by the end of the year I get a little pessimistic.
7
SPEAKER_00
Oh, interesting.
7
SPEAKER_01
And then the new year comes in and I m like, I m waiting to see, am I going to latch onto this?
7
SPEAKER_01
Is this a good one?
7
SPEAKER_01
Is this going to be a momentous one?
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
And I just don t know.
7
SPEAKER_01
And I want to say like the whole week leading up till the first, I was like, I don t know.
7
SPEAKER_01
I don t know.
7
SPEAKER_01
Like what s in store.
7
SPEAKER_00
You re feeling anxious.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
That s the right word, I guess.
7
SPEAKER_01
Anxious.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
And then this morning I had just a crack, a shard as I described it in my journal, a shard of optimistic light.
7
SPEAKER_00
I love that.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
So now I m starting to feel like, okay, great.
7
SPEAKER_01
I have a shard and now I m going to build on that.
7
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
7
SPEAKER_01
I wonder if other people go through this.
7
SPEAKER_01
Is it just standard that people are optimistic about the new year or do people have also anxiety?
7
SPEAKER_00
I think there s both.
7
SPEAKER_00
I think that s why we do resolutions.
7
SPEAKER_00
We love starts to things.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, we want a fresh start.
7
SPEAKER_00
We do.
7
SPEAKER_01
Hard reboots.
7
SPEAKER_00
Hard resets.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, we put so much meaning
8
SPEAKER_01
on things that don t immediately have it.
8
SPEAKER_01
Well, it s very arbitrary what date.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, we went January 1st is the beginning of a new year.
8
SPEAKER_00
We just decided that.
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh, we figured that out a while ago.
8
SPEAKER_00
That s 365 days.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh, okay.
8
SPEAKER_01
But it s so human of us to need reasons to get excited.
8
SPEAKER_00
How were you feeling leading up?
8
SPEAKER_00
Where are you at today on my 49th birthday?
8
SPEAKER_01
I was a little blue.
8
SPEAKER_00
Okay, post-Christmas blues.
8
SPEAKER_01
Post Christmas, when I was home.
8
SPEAKER_00
Let s go through that.
8
SPEAKER_01
I was home.
8
SPEAKER_01
My mom and my brother got COVID after Christmas.
8
SPEAKER_00
For Christmas, they got COVID.
8
SPEAKER_01
They did.
8
SPEAKER_01
And they were fine, but sick.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
If I stayed, I was like, I ll probably get it.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
Which is maybe okay.
8
SPEAKER_00
You didn t think you already had it?
8
SPEAKER_00
Like if the people around you start showing symptoms and you ve been with them for a week, my assumption s always just like, oh yeah, I have it too.
8
SPEAKER_00
Either I m not, I don t have any symptoms or I ve already had it or whatever.
8
SPEAKER_01
I mean, yeah, of course all that goes through your head, but it happens where some random members don t get it.
8
SPEAKER_00
That s true.
8
SPEAKER_01
My dad so far doesn t have it.
8
SPEAKER_00
He s a dad.
8
SPEAKER_00
He ll get it in three weeks.
8
SPEAKER_01
My dad is a steel trap.
8
SPEAKER_01
He is.
8
SPEAKER_00
Nothing in, nothing out.
8
SPEAKER_00
In and out.
8
SPEAKER_00
Because we want him to remain a steel trap.
8
SPEAKER_01
Is that wood?
8
SPEAKER_00
It is wood.
8
SPEAKER_00
You don t like it because it s painted.
8
SPEAKER_00
But what s funny is the other thing s just painted too.
8
SPEAKER_00
They re both just wood.
8
SPEAKER_00
One s got more of a wood paint.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, he very rarely gets sick.
8
SPEAKER_00
Your dad.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
He doesn t have time.
8
SPEAKER_01
Actually, we were talking about this.
8
SPEAKER_01
He wants more hobbies.
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh, this was one of his resolutions?
8
SPEAKER_01
He s anxious about retirement.
8
SPEAKER_00
Of course, uh-huh.
8
SPEAKER_01
Which is coming in a couple years for him.
8
SPEAKER_01
But yeah, so he was tossing some hobbies.
8
SPEAKER_00
Theoretical hobbies.
8
SPEAKER_01
In the air, yeah, we were, because I was reading.
8
SPEAKER_01
I read, you know, over the,
8
SPEAKER_00
You read a whole book, right?
8
SPEAKER_01
I read a whole book, that was my goal.
8
SPEAKER_01
I did it early, I did it.
8
SPEAKER_00
Congratulations.
8
SPEAKER_01
Thank you.
8
SPEAKER_00
And you loved it.
8
SPEAKER_01
Oh, I loved it so much.
8
SPEAKER_01
That s actually what sort of kicked off the melancholy.
8
SPEAKER_00
That makes sense.
8
SPEAKER_01
Which is weird.
8
SPEAKER_00
Because you said it was like a heartbreaking love story, this book?
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
What s it called?
8
SPEAKER_01
Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow.
8
SPEAKER_00
Sounds sad, doesn t it?
8
SPEAKER_00
It does.
8
SPEAKER_00
Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s so beautifully written.
8
SPEAKER_01
It is a very special book, but yes, it s about this, it ties into this.
8
SPEAKER_01
I wrote it down.
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh, wow.
8
SPEAKER_00
Ding, ding, ding.
8
SPEAKER_00
First ding, ding, ding of 2020.
8
SPEAKER_01
Oh my gosh, yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
That s exciting.
8
SPEAKER_01
So it s about this boy and girl.
8
SPEAKER_01
They meet at a hospital.
8
SPEAKER_01
The boy is, um,
8
SPEAKER_00
Terminaleo?
8
SPEAKER_01
No, he got in a car accident.
8
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
8
SPEAKER_01
And the girl is visiting her sister.
8
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
8
SPEAKER_01
And they start playing video games.
8
SPEAKER_00
What are the ages?
8
SPEAKER_01
I think they re 11 at that.
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh, they re children.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
8
SPEAKER_01
And they start playing video games.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, they start playing video games.
8
SPEAKER_01
What you learn is like, he hasn t actually, he hasn t talked to anyone since the accident.
8
SPEAKER_01
Like he hasn t spoken since the accident.
8
SPEAKER_01
And then he, so he starts talking to this girl and then they play video games.
8
SPEAKER_00
Can we pause one second?
8
SPEAKER_00
This is such a well-worn trope in movies and in books where a child doesn t speak.
8
SPEAKER_00
And then magically at the end, they speak, right?
8
SPEAKER_00
They speak to the new guy, the woman s dating or the friend, you know, it s like whoever they want to demonstrate how impactful the one character was.
8
SPEAKER_00
They make the other one that was mute talk.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I, when I m curious about it, it s like I ve traveled the world and met so many people.
8
SPEAKER_00
I ve never met the mute kid who doesn t talk.
8
SPEAKER_01
Well, I don t know.
8
SPEAKER_00
For how often you see it in film and television and in books.
8
SPEAKER_00
It s like in every third movie there s a child who doesn t talk.
8
SPEAKER_01
I m gonna need you to knock on wood in a second because the reason, the other wood.
8
SPEAKER_00
Stained wood, not painted wood.
8
SPEAKER_00
The reason, it s a trauma response.
8
SPEAKER_00
What if you made me keep a raw piece of wood in here next to the lazy boy?
8
SPEAKER_00
Just a little six inch piece of cedar.
8
SPEAKER_01
That s a good idea, actually.
8
SPEAKER_01
I think it could be a legit trauma response.
8
SPEAKER_01
They re not saying he never spoke.
8
SPEAKER_01
It was after he had a car accident.
8
SPEAKER_01
I don t want to give too much away because if people haven t read it, I want people to read it.
8
SPEAKER_01
So it wasn t like he hadn t talked for five years and then he talked to her, but events happen.
8
SPEAKER_01
They don t see each other for like six years or something.
8
SPEAKER_00
Six years, okay.
8
SPEAKER_01
or longer, I don t know.
8
SPEAKER_01
And then they reunite.
8
SPEAKER_00
Another me cute.
8
SPEAKER_01
In college.
8
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
8
SPEAKER_01
And then that s really where the story really starts.
8
SPEAKER_01
They start gaming together again and making games together.
8
SPEAKER_01
And it s this like beautiful.
8
SPEAKER_00
Very modern love story.
8
SPEAKER_00
It is.
8
SPEAKER_00
Video gaming together.
8
SPEAKER_01
The love story in it is complex.
8
SPEAKER_01
They re soulmates.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
but it doesn t go necessarily the way you think it s gonna go.
8
SPEAKER_00
All right, doesn t mean it s gonna work out for them just because they re soulmates.
8
SPEAKER_01
Or that they ll even pursue it.
8
SPEAKER_00
That would be the worst outcome for me.
8
SPEAKER_01
No, it s not.
8
SPEAKER_01
They re soulmates.
8
SPEAKER_01
They become a professional team.
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh, okay.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s really so good.
8
SPEAKER_01
And it is a ding, ding, ding.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s tragic, but it s also like exactly as it should be.
8
SPEAKER_01
And it s heartbreaking and they hate each other a lot.
8
SPEAKER_01
And then they love each other.
8
SPEAKER_00
The soulmateness is probably, yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s complicated.
8
SPEAKER_00
Powerful stuff.
8
SPEAKER_00
I would say, preferable, you go through your whole life, you don t meet your soulmate.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
Versus you meet your soulmate and it s challenging.
8
SPEAKER_00
I think the latter is the choice.
8
SPEAKER_01
Me too.
8
SPEAKER_00
Live your whole life without feeling that?
8
SPEAKER_01
I agree.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
What are we doing here?
8
SPEAKER_00
Why do it?
8
SPEAKER_01
And there s, but I, you know, you know, my theory, there s so many, you can have multiple soulmates.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yes, yes, yes.
8
SPEAKER_00
They re a dime a dozen.
8
SPEAKER_01
They re not a dime a dozen, but they show up in so many ways, why we re soulmates.
8
SPEAKER_01
And the professional soulmate is a very specific relationship and does come with a soulmate.
8
SPEAKER_01
extra complication.
8
SPEAKER_00
Of course, which by the way, how on earth are you going to reap something super special on one side of a partnership and then it not be complicated on the other side?
8
SPEAKER_00
It s heightened on all ends.
8
SPEAKER_01
And that s one of the takeaways is just life is tragic.
8
SPEAKER_01
There s just so much sadness at every corner and so much beauty.
8
SPEAKER_00
It s a rollercoaster ride.
8
SPEAKER_01
Oh, it s just like, there s magic everywhere and there s sorrow everywhere.
8
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so let s earmark this.
8
SPEAKER_00
So that s interesting.
8
SPEAKER_00
So yes, it s a rollercoaster ride and you and I are both of the opinion, like, yeah, it s better to be on the ride.
8
SPEAKER_01
Well, I m not allowed to say that because my, like.
8
SPEAKER_00
Okay, great, because that s what s earmarked for me for later.
8
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
8
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so this is perfect.
8
SPEAKER_01
Okay, great.
8
SPEAKER_00
Okay, but before we get there, that kicked off a little melancholiness.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
The book made you lovesick.
8
SPEAKER_00
Like the movie heard it to me.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it made me lovesick.
8
SPEAKER_01
I also, I haven t read like this in a long time, so it was so nice to do what I used to do, which is just fully immerse.
8
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I read it in like three and a half days.
8
SPEAKER_00
That s crazy.
8
SPEAKER_00
How many pages was it, 30?
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh, okay.
8
SPEAKER_00
That makes more sense.
8
SPEAKER_00
I read 10 pages a day.
8
SPEAKER_01
That was like 380 pages.
8
SPEAKER_01
Oh my God, you can move.
8
SPEAKER_01
I can if I want.
8
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
8
SPEAKER_01
I guess that s why I don t read that much anymore, because I m searching for that.
8
SPEAKER_01
I m searching to get sucked in in such a profound way.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
And it s so rare.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s like the soulmate-y thing.
8
SPEAKER_00
Soulmate-y thing, sure, sure, sure, sure.
8
SPEAKER_01
It really is.
8
SPEAKER_01
And I m looking and looking and I m tossing them around because this one s good, but it s not that good because I don t want to keep reading it.
8
SPEAKER_00
God, you might be inadvertently discovering why I left fiction and went to nonfiction because fiction has that power.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
8
SPEAKER_00
Nonfiction, not so much, but your consistency on nonfiction is so much higher.
8
SPEAKER_00
You re going to get the information you want.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
So often you re reading one of these books and you re like, I guess I ll give it 60 pages or I m going to give it a hundred.
8
SPEAKER_00
And then you start feeling like you got to finish it because you started it.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I didn t like that.
8
SPEAKER_00
And so few of the fiction books are phenomenal and you lose yourself.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
This is a good analogy for love.
8
SPEAKER_01
and marriage, probably, dating, relationships, because nonfiction, I guess, is the healthy, safe choice.
8
SPEAKER_00
Non-romanticized.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yes, yes.
8
SPEAKER_00
Grounded in reality.
8
SPEAKER_01
Ultimately, you probably get more, but if you commit to fiction, you might get the high.
8
SPEAKER_00
Get taken away to another planet, yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
And it takes a lot of fiction before you can find it.
8
SPEAKER_00
Right.
8
SPEAKER_01
But then they die, you finish it.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
8
SPEAKER_01
And then you feel dead inside.
8
SPEAKER_00
You re searching now for the next novel that ll do the same thing.
8
SPEAKER_00
This is love addiction.
8
SPEAKER_00
You re just like, you get in the spin cycle of fantasy.
8
SPEAKER_01
But you know nothing s gonna do it for another like 10 years.
8
SPEAKER_01
I don t remember the last time.
8
SPEAKER_00
that specific feeling, but you also love Copperfield.
8
SPEAKER_01
I love Demon Copperhead, but it s not this.
8
SPEAKER_00
This one had your heart all fucked up.
8
SPEAKER_01
It did.
8
SPEAKER_00
Right, okay.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, for me, that s the movie Her.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I know, you love that movie.
8
SPEAKER_01
I like, I did, but it didn t do that.
9
SPEAKER_02
That, to me.
9
SPEAKER_01
Right.
9
SPEAKER_01
Maybe because it s from the male perspective and it s like.
9
SPEAKER_02
Maybe.
9
SPEAKER_01
Female.
9
SPEAKER_01
A robot.
9
SPEAKER_01
A robot.
9
SPEAKER_02
Oh my God, do you think the robot will find a lover?
9
SPEAKER_02
Maybe it will find a soulmate?
9
SPEAKER_01
Right, yeah.
9
SPEAKER_02
Well, Hermione and Permian seems like.
9
SPEAKER_01
They re doing pretty good, it seems like.
9
SPEAKER_01
They re off to a good start.
9
SPEAKER_01
I think they spent New Year s together.
9
SPEAKER_02
Just a little nervous about their age gap.
9
SPEAKER_01
Cause one feels like a boy, one feels like an older man.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
But I think Hermium Permium doesn t really have any kind of carnal.
9
SPEAKER_02
No, no.
9
SPEAKER_02
I don t.
9
SPEAKER_02
I agree.
9
SPEAKER_01
And would there be anything amoral about him having sex with the metal robot?
9
SPEAKER_01
I mean, other than that, you ve ascribed him a boy anthropomorphization.
9
SPEAKER_02
I think it s perverse, like not in a way that I m judging.
9
SPEAKER_01
I know what you re saying, because the robot wouldn t desire it.
9
SPEAKER_02
No.
9
SPEAKER_01
It d be one way.
9
SPEAKER_02
Okay, actually, this is a hot take.
9
SPEAKER_02
I don t think the robot is in trouble here.
9
SPEAKER_02
The robot...
9
SPEAKER_01
is a robot.
9
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
9
SPEAKER_01
Let s start there.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
It s not a human.
9
SPEAKER_02
But hermium-permium, I feel, it s like when we talked about fucking the nightstand.
9
SPEAKER_02
It s not okay because there s a deep void and sadness and desperation that is not healthy.
9
SPEAKER_00
For him, for him.
9
SPEAKER_00
I m not judging.
9
SPEAKER_02
I just, I feel like, oh no, he needs therapy.
9
SPEAKER_01
Well, to my knowledge, hermium permium, I don t think he really has those impulses.
9
SPEAKER_01
No, they died long ago for him.
9
SPEAKER_02
Or maybe he never had them.
9
SPEAKER_01
That also could be true.
9
SPEAKER_02
We don t know.
9
SPEAKER_02
Oh, we ll find out.
9
SPEAKER_01
My doctor says I have an extremely low testosterone count, lower than a small infant child s.
9
SPEAKER_02
Oh, wow.
9
SPEAKER_02
That s nice.
9
SPEAKER_01
It is.
9
SPEAKER_01
I have no hair on my back and I m proud of that.
9
SPEAKER_02
And a really goopy chin you have.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, real soft.
9
SPEAKER_01
Lots of folds.
9
SPEAKER_01
You can hide coins in it.
9
SPEAKER_02
I always, I never know.
9
SPEAKER_02
I never really want to talk to them.
9
SPEAKER_01
To Hermium.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I love him.
9
SPEAKER_01
But you want to hear over here him talking with the robot.
9
SPEAKER_02
Correct.
9
SPEAKER_02
Or just, he can just be talking.
9
SPEAKER_01
Hey robot, have you ever had your testosterone checked?
9
SPEAKER_00
I don t have any hormones.
9
SPEAKER_00
I just have fluid like hydraulic fluid.
9
SPEAKER_01
And do you have a healthy level of hydraulic fluid?
9
SPEAKER_01
Do you need more?
9
SPEAKER_01
I surely could go up to AECO and buy some.
9
SPEAKER_00
I produce my own hydraulic fluid.
9
SPEAKER_00
I abstract oils from the air.
9
SPEAKER_00
I was designed to be self-sufficient on Mars.
9
SPEAKER_00
But luckily they ve not yet sent me.
9
SPEAKER_01
Well, I d hate to see you go over to Mars.
9
SPEAKER_01
I have no idea how to get there.
9
SPEAKER_01
Anyways, good luck on your trip.
9
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
9
SPEAKER_02
You just added stakes to the robot that I hated.
9
SPEAKER_01
That he was designed to be deployed to Mars.
9
SPEAKER_01
He s kind of on the run, actually.
9
SPEAKER_01
They re looking for him, but he doesn t know he s on the run.
9
SPEAKER_01
He s kind of like Inspector Clouseau or Gadget.
9
SPEAKER_01
You know, he s just stumbling through, luckily.
9
SPEAKER_02
Oh, no.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
That s all these robots.
9
SPEAKER_01
When you watch the movie, like Daryl, all these, or Johnny Five, they design them to be either weapons or explorers, and they don t want to.
9
SPEAKER_01
They just want to be a boy.
9
SPEAKER_01
Of course.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
9
SPEAKER_01
All right.
9
SPEAKER_01
Now- Melancholy.
9
SPEAKER_02
Melancholy.
9
SPEAKER_02
So, yeah, it really kind of sent me into a bluey zone, but not the good kind of blue zone.
9
SPEAKER_01
Right, not where you re gonna live forever.
9
SPEAKER_02
and the mix of being home.
9
SPEAKER_02
Cause I m in the same, I m in the house.
9
SPEAKER_01
No.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
It s really hard for me to imagine going back to Milford for the holidays and going into my small town and all of that stuff.
9
SPEAKER_01
I think I would feel a combination of sadness that like there s a whole period of my life that s over.
9
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
And I would probably feel like I no longer have a place there in a bizarre way.
9
SPEAKER_02
that weird middle cliche of what s my home?
9
SPEAKER_02
Like, this isn t my home, but now the other place doesn t really feel like my home, because this is where my roots are.
9
SPEAKER_02
And I felt very untethered.
9
SPEAKER_02
You know, I took a walk around the neighborhood.
9
SPEAKER_02
There s something so heavy about the passage of time.
9
SPEAKER_02
Like, you really feel the passage of time.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, different people live in the houses.
9
SPEAKER_02
They do, but it s the same.
9
SPEAKER_02
Ultimately, everything s the same, but nothing s, everything s different.
9
SPEAKER_02
And everyone s hair is gray, but it s the same place.
9
SPEAKER_02
It s just, it s a lot.
9
SPEAKER_01
I agree.
9
SPEAKER_01
I agree.
9
SPEAKER_01
I will say this.
9
SPEAKER_01
I have such wonder lust and I have, I m so opinionated to a nauseating level.
9
SPEAKER_01
I ll start like hating LA pretty much out of nowhere.
9
SPEAKER_01
Really.
9
SPEAKER_01
I just decide, Oh, this and that.
9
SPEAKER_01
And you know, I ll just come up with this list of things.
9
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
9
SPEAKER_01
But then we were traveling a bunch.
9
SPEAKER_01
We went to Tennessee and then we went to Mexico and I have to say both times when we returned home, I was like,
9
SPEAKER_01
Oh yeah, Dingus, don t forget.
9
SPEAKER_01
This is like one of the greatest places you could ever live.
9
SPEAKER_01
I love it here.
9
SPEAKER_01
That s why there s so many people here, but I kind of forget it when we just live here.
9
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I love it here.
9
SPEAKER_02
All of our people are here.
9
SPEAKER_02
Like, we have such a good support system here.
9
SPEAKER_02
Incredible friends.
9
SPEAKER_01
New Year s Eve is so fun.
9
SPEAKER_02
I just feel a little floaty.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you start really asking, like, what s life all about?
9
SPEAKER_01
What is this?
9
SPEAKER_01
Because, like, you started here, you re back here.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
Where do I want to end?
9
SPEAKER_01
What am I?
9
SPEAKER_01
Yes, yes.
9
SPEAKER_02
And this book, I think, kicked that off.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_02
And then I really just sunk into it.
9
SPEAKER_02
So I was gonna come home, the day after Christmas is when they tested positive.
9
SPEAKER_02
And my mom s like, I mean, do you wanna go home?
9
SPEAKER_02
That was kind of her.
9
SPEAKER_02
It was.
9
SPEAKER_01
Because I m sure she didn t want you to.
9
SPEAKER_02
She didn t want me to, but it was the right, it was like, I m just gonna be in my room.
9
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_02
And so I booked a ticket immediately, but the first one I could get was the next morning.
9
SPEAKER_02
So, you know, I m just kind of like walking around the house and then I m, you know, sitting at dinner with just my dad and he s like eating soup.
9
SPEAKER_02
It just feels so depressing.
9
SPEAKER_02
But in a weird way, what I would have thought would have happened is, oh God, it s depressed.
9
SPEAKER_02
I gotta get out.
9
SPEAKER_02
Like, thank God I m going home tomorrow.
9
SPEAKER_02
But really it was the opposite.
9
SPEAKER_02
I was like, I don t wanna go.
9
SPEAKER_02
And maybe I m depressed because I don t wanna go and I m getting like pushed out.
9
SPEAKER_02
So I changed my flight.
9
SPEAKER_02
I stayed.
9
SPEAKER_02
I stayed a few more days.
9
SPEAKER_02
And it was nice.
9
SPEAKER_02
I m glad I did that.
9
SPEAKER_02
And then I was ready to come back.
9
SPEAKER_02
But yeah, when I was on the walk, I had the thought of, I gotta go home, I gotta go away from this now, because this is really, I can feel the wave, and I might never come out of it if I don t leave.
9
SPEAKER_01
Right, right, it might envelop you, and you ll get lost forever in the feelings, in the lack of direction or conviction.
9
SPEAKER_02
So I m coming out of it now.
9
SPEAKER_01
Okay, good, so you re having a shard too?
9
SPEAKER_02
I m having a shard.
9
SPEAKER_01
Shard is so close to shart.
9
SPEAKER_02
I know, I said that earlier, but you didn t hear it.
9
SPEAKER_01
I didn t?
9
SPEAKER_02
I said a shard.
9
SPEAKER_01
Oh, a shard.
9
SPEAKER_02
But you must have heard shard, because they re similar.
9
SPEAKER_01
They re very similar.
9
SPEAKER_01
But you have a shard then.
9
SPEAKER_01
Okay, now back to the roller coaster ride.
9
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, let s go back there.
9
SPEAKER_01
So this was kind of a late add-on to the resolutions.
9
SPEAKER_01
I had like mechanical things I was going to tackle, like quit doing this, go back to writing a page a day every morning, you know, like physical things.
9
SPEAKER_01
And then maybe because of my wandering around, and I ll add, so my thing was like, we went to a very nice, nice place, like a very luxurious place.
9
SPEAKER_01
And not to get too saccharine about it, but like maybe a bit of the Sid Arthur, like when he goes to the city and he becomes rich.
9
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
I was like, so much of this stuff I enjoy.
9
SPEAKER_01
There s no question.
9
SPEAKER_01
There s so much of it s really enjoyable.
9
SPEAKER_01
The property was beautiful, but you are confronted with, I was, I personally, I won t speak for anyone else.
9
SPEAKER_01
I m confronted the whole time with, God, the brain is such a weird place.
9
SPEAKER_01
So the brain wants and craves things, better things, a better life, more love, more everything.
9
SPEAKER_01
It s not even bad, per se.
9
SPEAKER_01
It s just we crave.
9
SPEAKER_01
And then there s this weird empty feeling for me when it s like you ve gotten to the place where, theoretically, craving should be over.
9
SPEAKER_01
OK, everything s pretty much perfect.
9
SPEAKER_01
And that s almost scary in the way that when I got sober was scary.
9
SPEAKER_01
Like, okay, I have everything I want and why am I miserable?
9
SPEAKER_01
And I wasn t miserable.
9
SPEAKER_01
I just was like, oh, so much of life is wanting more stuff.
9
SPEAKER_01
And then if you get the stuff, you almost enter a phase of like hopelessness because there s nothing left.
9
SPEAKER_01
That s really what it was.
9
SPEAKER_01
It felt like at times.
9
SPEAKER_01
Now the huge irony of it is,
9
SPEAKER_01
The huge irony of this whole experience was day four out of five at this resort, we got invited to go to the residence of the resort, which I didn t really know existed.
9
SPEAKER_01
But then lo and behold, there was yet another tier above it.
9
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, God, see, someone s smart enough to know that all these people who went on vacation here are starting to feel like, now what s next?
9
SPEAKER_01
Let s build something that s even more exclusive.
9
SPEAKER_01
It s endless and pointless and ridiculous.
9
SPEAKER_01
But sure enough,
10
SPEAKER_03
We go over for one night to the residence, and yeah, it s even nicer than the place that I already thought was as nice as it can get.
10
SPEAKER_03
And you were like, oh, here.
10
SPEAKER_03
The people there feel a little bit better.
10
SPEAKER_04
Here, people are happy.
10
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, well, and then they re also going, like, I started noticing too, and I was noticing this at the resort, and again, I might be projecting.
10
SPEAKER_03
Sure.
10
SPEAKER_03
I don t wanna put this on all the people that were there, because there were tons of nice people and blah, blah, blah.
10
SPEAKER_03
But I did get this feeling of like, the only real pleasure that was existing there was like, whoo, we made it.
10
SPEAKER_03
We made it to the upper level.
10
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Whatever like this game we re all playing, this place signifies that we made it to the safe level.
10
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And that s about the only joy that s really happening.
10
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Speaking of gaming.
10
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Yes, it s 100% a game.
10
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And so it s interesting, because I m not going to lie, I enjoy it, yet I m also very self-aware of what a baloney thing it is.
10
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All of it.
10
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I mean, it was the TJ Maxx, the same thing.
10
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Is the point of life just to understand that all these cliches are true?
10
SPEAKER_04
Like by the time you die,
10
SPEAKER_03
You finally accept them all?
10
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Yeah, that they re all true.
10
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Or they resonate, yeah.
10
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Like this stupid, like wherever you go, there you are.
10
SPEAKER_04
That s what this is.
10
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
10
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That s literally what this is.
10
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It doesn t matter.
10
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You re still you in these places at the end of the day.
10
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By the way, the best day we had is when we left the resort for like seven hours to go drive razors through the dirty desert.
10
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
10
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And then climb really far up to some waterfall.
10
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Yeah.
10
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Like that was really quite enjoyable.
10
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But then just kind of sitting in, good job, you did it.
10
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Look where you re sitting.
10
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That s got like a five minute for me window of pleasure.
10
SPEAKER_03
And then you re like, oh, who cares?
10
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Who am I impressing?
10
SPEAKER_03
Who am I telling this to?
10
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Yeah.
10
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And so much, I mean, you were with your family, but I do think for me, it s just all about who s around you.
10
SPEAKER_03
Yes.
10
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It does not matter.
10
SPEAKER_04
It doesn t matter.
10
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We can all be in a crappy place and it s much better than being with other people you don t care about in a nice place.
10
SPEAKER_03
And that was one other element I should also say is that like, let s say like our enjoyment when you and I checked into the nicer hotel in Hawaii.
10
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_03
That was delivered because we were at the whole pod.
10
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We were at the whole pod.
10
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We went to the hotel next door, which is embarrassing.
10
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Well, they didn t have a gym and they didn t have coffee.
10
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It was during COVID and so they did a lot.
10
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For me, the coffee was the breaking point.
10
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We went and it s next door and it shares a beach.
10
SPEAKER_04
If we had to go to a hotel down the street.
10
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, then it would have been a loss.
10
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It would have been a loss.
10
SPEAKER_03
Anyways, I got to add one other thing that happened and we re going so long, but here we go.
10
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Lincoln and I were watching this.
10
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I already told you this.
10
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I think, um, we were watching this reality show leading up to Christmas.
10
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_03
I didn t say that on here.
10
SPEAKER_03
Right.
10
SPEAKER_03
I just told you.
10
SPEAKER_03
Oh, I did.
10
SPEAKER_04
You did on our last pack check, but I did.
10
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And I say, I want to do it.
10
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
10
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You said you re going to start looking into Buddhism a little bit.
10
SPEAKER_03
Okay, so I guess maybe the seed was planted, but then maybe this vacation really cemented it where I thought, okay, you re an arousal junkie.
10
SPEAKER_03
You love a roller coaster.
10
SPEAKER_03
Let s try, like, let s give it the college try once.
10
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Yeah.
10
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to learn about Buddhism, really embrace that craving is the source of all suffering, maybe get some tools around that.
10
SPEAKER_03
And I think even quitting dip where it s like, okay, I have less nicotine, so I m a little less jacked.
10
SPEAKER_03
Okay, let s like slowly, let s try to get the caffeine level down.
10
SPEAKER_03
So now the resolution really has become largely about minimally learning everything I can about Buddhism.
10
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For a year, like I would learn about any other subject.
10
SPEAKER_03
I love that.
10
SPEAKER_03
So I ordered a few books yesterday.
10
SPEAKER_04
Nice.
10
SPEAKER_04
I m sure there s some good podcasts.
10
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, there probably is, huh?
10
SPEAKER_04
Sure.
10
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, I have a fantasy where it s like, I can be anywhere.
10
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
10
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And I ve detached from this stupid video game I m playing in my head.
10
SPEAKER_03
I d like a little break from the video game.
10
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, I get it.
10
SPEAKER_03
In closing, and this will be a weird person to say I have sympathy for, but I truly, I can t imagine Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos are not miserable.
10
SPEAKER_03
I mean, truly, there s nothing for them to even fantasize about.
10
SPEAKER_03
They own the islands, they own the yachts.
10
SPEAKER_04
I know, that s why they re trying to go to space, that s why.
10
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Literally, yeah, because however good it is, that s it.
10
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if there s nothing better ahead for you in life, that s a tricky-ass place to be.
10
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That really, it means you d be logical to not be optimistic.
10
SPEAKER_03
It s not gonna get better.
10
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Maybe your optimism at best could be, well, hopefully I can maintain this.
10
SPEAKER_03
But the most logical disposition would be pessimism.
10
SPEAKER_04
Well, except that that s gonna be counter to what you learn, I think, in Buddhism, which is
10
SPEAKER_03
the joy in life and the happiness doesn t even come from any of that.
10
SPEAKER_04
It doesn t, it doesn t come from wanting the next rung.
10
SPEAKER_03
Yes, I know, I know.
10
SPEAKER_03
But unless they re like, have some crazy practice, I mean, I think it would take a lot of effort, but I just, they re just sitting around, it s like, there s nothing even to look forward to, like, there s nothing to dream of.
10
SPEAKER_04
Well, but maybe you don t have to do that.
10
SPEAKER_03
We can just enjoy.
10
SPEAKER_03
Assuming they re not monks.
10
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Well, yeah, I mean,
10
SPEAKER_03
And as we just said, they have the type of dispositions that created what they created.
10
SPEAKER_03
So my hunch is they are, you know, I guess they can just like try to be richer than each other.
10
SPEAKER_03
That s about all there is left.
10
SPEAKER_04
Well, they are trying to do that.
10
SPEAKER_04
That is what they re doing.
10
SPEAKER_03
Okay, facts.
10
SPEAKER_04
Okay, facts.
10
SPEAKER_04
This is for Billy Joe.
10
SPEAKER_04
I think it s nice to have Thursdays with experts that aren t- He really is.
10
SPEAKER_03
You know, a lot of musicians I might not want on a Thursday because either they re not like masters of their instrument, nor-
10
SPEAKER_03
Have they demonstrated some kind of longevity that would suggest they have, you know, you really look at these bands, there s only a handful, like Rolling Stones magically stayed together the whole time.
10
SPEAKER_03
Led Zeppelin didn t, Beatles didn t, and Metallica has.
10
SPEAKER_03
There s only a couple that have done it.
10
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And then Green Day.
10
SPEAKER_04
So the reason the book was a ding, ding, ding is because Billy and Mike are soulmates.
10
SPEAKER_03
Right.
10
SPEAKER_04
And are in this professional relationship and met as kids and there s a similarity.
10
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Yeah.
10
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And it s beautiful, like it s a beautiful thing.
10
SPEAKER_03
It is.
10
SPEAKER_03
Billy Joe, it s hard not to say Billy Joel.
10
SPEAKER_03
We never talked about it.
10
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We didn t talk about it.
10
SPEAKER_03
I wonder if he s dealt with it.
10
SPEAKER_04
I m sure he s grateful we didn t talk about it.
10
SPEAKER_03
I bet he is, yeah.
10
SPEAKER_04
Okay, you mentioned that he went on Kimmel and talked about his five-year-old album.
10
SPEAKER_03
Oh, when he was, the first time he performed, maybe it was on the local news.
10
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, he had like an album or something.
10
SPEAKER_04
So I ve pulled up this clip from Kimmel.
10
SPEAKER_03
Oh, great.
10
SPEAKER_01
California, and yeah, I learned how to sing there and play guitar there also.
10
SPEAKER_01
Do you remember that song?
10
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I could probably sing it right now, which I won t.
10
SPEAKER_02
You won t.
10
SPEAKER_02
Well, you don t have to, because we have the clip of you singing it when you were five.
10
SPEAKER_00
When everything seems to go wrong, and you need somebody strong, a weird smile and a song.
10
SPEAKER_00
Look for love.
10
SPEAKER_00
Look for love.
10
SPEAKER_04
Oh, how sweet is that?
10
SPEAKER_04
Look for love.
10
SPEAKER_03
And you know, before I had kids, that kind of stuff wasn t as...
10
SPEAKER_03
impressive to me, but now that I ve, like, you can t even get a five-year-old in the car.
10
SPEAKER_04
I know.
10
SPEAKER_03
With their shoes on, most of the time.
10
SPEAKER_03
The notion that you could get them all the way to a stage and they would sing the song they practiced at five seems impossible.
10
SPEAKER_03
Well, it was like recorded.
10
SPEAKER_04
Now that I ve had kids.
10
SPEAKER_04
I mean.
10
SPEAKER_03
Oh, there s no video?
10
SPEAKER_03
That was just the album.
10
SPEAKER_04
That was just the album.
10
SPEAKER_03
Okay, but I think he was on the news singing.
10
SPEAKER_04
Well, there s a picture of, it was like,
10
SPEAKER_03
Oh, okay.
10
SPEAKER_03
A picture of him.
10
SPEAKER_03
Oh, he s in the newspaper.
10
SPEAKER_03
That s what it was.
10
SPEAKER_04
Newspaper.
10
SPEAKER_04
Oh, sweet.
10
SPEAKER_04
Oh my God.
10
SPEAKER_04
Oh, he mentioned earlier in the episode, he wanted to show you a video and just following up on that, he did after we stopped recording, he showed us his- Super cool music video.
10
SPEAKER_04
New music video that s coming out and it is about like a very drunk night that starts fun and then reality sort of sinks in.
10
SPEAKER_03
starts seeping in from every crack and corner as it does.
10
SPEAKER_04
Okay, you said smells activate memories because they re located close to each other in the brain.
10
SPEAKER_04
That s right.
10
SPEAKER_04
I was- You were surprised.
10
SPEAKER_04
I was surprised.
10
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I was like.
10
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He just added that part.
10
SPEAKER_04
He doesn t know, but you re right.
10
SPEAKER_04
And I m going to read a little bit.
10
SPEAKER_04
This is from kids.frontierssin.org.
10
SPEAKER_04
Years of research helped us to understand that the emotional processing areas in the brain, the same areas activated by odors include the amygdala and the hippocampus, which are located in the temporal lobes.
10
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The temporal lobes are under your skull near your left and right temples.
10
SPEAKER_04
The hippocampus is a seahorse-shaped brain area that is involved with associative learning, which is learning that occurs when you connect two separate events together.
10
SPEAKER_04
Odor-linked memory relies on associative learning because we associate or link the odor that we smell with the times in our lives when we previously smelled it.
10
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As you can see, the amygdala and
11
SPEAKER_00
and the hippocampus are really close together, which makes it easy for us to learn and remember emotional memories.
11
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Do you have one super specific you can mention?
11
SPEAKER_01
Because I have one.
11
SPEAKER_00
Well, is that good?
11
SPEAKER_01
I ll hit you with mine and maybe I ll jog yours.
11
SPEAKER_01
So I think my favorite vacation we ever took as kids was we went and visited my stepdad in Phoenix, Arizona, because he worked there in the winters at the Desert Proving Grounds.
11
SPEAKER_01
And we stayed at Woolly Petite Sweets.
11
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We ate at Flaky Jake s, which you hear me talk about.
11
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And we went to the go-kart track every day.
11
SPEAKER_01
And my mother wore a new perfume on that trip.
11
SPEAKER_01
Oh.
11
SPEAKER_01
I think she probably got it for Christmas.
11
SPEAKER_01
We were there in the winter.
11
SPEAKER_01
And that smell always brings me back to Arizona when I was like 10 or 11.
11
SPEAKER_01
And I even bought it for her some years ago so that I could smell it in her.
11
SPEAKER_00
Oh, that s nice.
11
SPEAKER_01
And it s so specific.
11
SPEAKER_00
What is it?
11
SPEAKER_01
I should ask her.
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I should have it around just so I can sniff it out of a jar every now and then and go back.
11
SPEAKER_00
But you know, it won t smell the same because your pheromones mix with scents, which is why they all smell a tiny bit different on everyone or sometimes a lot different.
11
SPEAKER_01
Right.
11
SPEAKER_00
So if you smell it out of the jar, it won t be the same.
11
SPEAKER_01
Won t be the same.
11
SPEAKER_00
No.
11
SPEAKER_01
I have to cut off a piece of her skin and then keep that moist.
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_01
And a little.
11
SPEAKER_00
Well, that s funny because a scent s memory, I mean, a smell is Kristen s amber oil.
11
SPEAKER_01
Oh, really?
11
SPEAKER_01
Oh, I bet.
11
SPEAKER_01
That whole phase of your life?
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, well, I guess, yeah.
11
SPEAKER_00
No, it just reminds me of her, I guess, but that s not the same.
11
SPEAKER_00
Okay, hold on.
11
SPEAKER_00
I have to.
11
SPEAKER_01
But if you re mindful of it, you ll notice it pops up all the time.
11
SPEAKER_01
Like you might not off the top of your head remember these associations, but you ll, if you re like aware of it, you ll smell something.
11
SPEAKER_01
You go like, oh my God, yeah, that s Cedar Point when I was blank years old.
11
SPEAKER_01
I have it a lot.
11
SPEAKER_01
And I spend a lot of time in my head trying to figure out what that smells from.
11
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, nothing s popping to mind, but I m sure.
11
SPEAKER_00
I am.
11
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one that s dark, but is so specific is crack smells.
11
SPEAKER_01
Crack has the most specific smell of anything.
11
SPEAKER_01
And so I will be walking down the street in New York and I ll walk by like a stairwell and I ll smell it.
11
SPEAKER_01
And then I am, like where I m immediately, it s not, I don t feel high or good.
11
SPEAKER_01
I m in the comedown of that experience and that smell you can t rid.
11
SPEAKER_01
it s just so permeated and you ve been inhaling it so you re like breathing it out you stink like it yeah and that one always is just like oh oh god yeah it s like it s like an immediate nightmare when i smell it i ll think on it yeah okay
11
SPEAKER_00
Oh, famous music rivals.
11
SPEAKER_00
Ah, here we go.
11
SPEAKER_00
Or band rivals.
11
SPEAKER_00
This is from phoenixnewtimes.com.
11
SPEAKER_00
Phoenix!
11
SPEAKER_01
Phoenix, ding, ding, ding.
11
SPEAKER_01
My mom s perfume.
11
SPEAKER_00
And Hermium Permium.
11
SPEAKER_01
Oh yeah!
11
SPEAKER_01
Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, USA.
11
SPEAKER_00
Okay, this is 10 best rock and roll feuds.
11
SPEAKER_00
The Killers vs. The Bravery.
11
SPEAKER_00
Red Hot Chili Peppers vs. Faith No More.
11
SPEAKER_01
Oh, sure.
11
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I don t know that.
11
SPEAKER_01
Sure, sure.
11
SPEAKER_01
Well, I mean, I didn t know of it, but that makes sense.
11
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I don t know Faith No More.
11
SPEAKER_01
You would.
11
SPEAKER_01
And you know what s interesting?
11
SPEAKER_01
The lead singer of Faith No More, that s Seth Avett s favorite singer and musician, I think, of all time.
11
SPEAKER_00
Whoa.
11
SPEAKER_01
He left Faith No More, I wanna say.
11
SPEAKER_01
This is all what I m remembering Seth telling me.
11
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
11
SPEAKER_01
And he had all these different musical projects that were really experimental, and he s very much his North Star.
11
SPEAKER_00
Mike Patton.
11
SPEAKER_01
Mike Patton.
11
SPEAKER_00
Huh.
11
SPEAKER_00
Okay, eight, Courtney Love versus Dave Grohl and Billy Corgan, et cetera.
11
SPEAKER_00
Is that a?
11
SPEAKER_01
That s over Nirvana.
11
SPEAKER_00
Oh yeah, duh.
11
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
11
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Yeah, ooh.
11
Oh.
11
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Sexy.
11
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Okay, the White Stripes versus the Von Bondys.
11
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
11
SPEAKER_00
Brand new versus Taking Back Sunday.
11
SPEAKER_00
Nine Inch Nails versus Marilyn Manson.
11
SPEAKER_00
Oh.
11
SPEAKER_00
That s interesting.
11
SPEAKER_00
I can see that.
11
SPEAKER_01
Sure.
11
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Metallica versus Megadeth.
11
SPEAKER_01
Sure.
11
SPEAKER_01
This is a good one.
11
SPEAKER_01
If I remember this one, the original guitar player of Metallica was kicked out.
11
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Dave Mustang.
11
SPEAKER_01
Does this say anything about Dave Mustang?
11
SPEAKER_00
It does.
11
SPEAKER_01
And then I think Dave Mustang started Megadeth.
11
SPEAKER_01
And Megadeth was seen as a little more hardcore than Metallica.
11
SPEAKER_01
People in the metal world were like, Megadeth s the real shit.
11
SPEAKER_00
Oh yeah, it says Metallica likes to get in giant feuds with people.
11
SPEAKER_00
Dave Mustaine likes to argue with everyone.
11
SPEAKER_00
This breakup was really a match made in metal heaven.
11
SPEAKER_00
For nearly 30 years after his unceremonious exit from Metallica, Mustaine clearly held a ton of resentment toward his old band.
11
SPEAKER_00
Spitting fire about them at nearly every chance he got.
11
SPEAKER_00
Of course, he was never exactly made out to look like the nicest guy by his former band, being kicked out for substance abuse problems and always portrayed as out of control.
11
SPEAKER_00
But hey, the whole thing led to the formation of Megadeth, so metalheads really can t complain about it.
11
SPEAKER_00
Leonard Skinner versus Neil Young.
11
SPEAKER_01
Oh, yeah.
11
SPEAKER_01
I hope Neil Young can remember.
11
SPEAKER_01
Southern man don t need him around anyhow.
11
SPEAKER_01
Sweet home Alabama.
11
SPEAKER_01
Oh, that s a lyric?
11
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
11
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Oh, my God.
11
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Southern man don t need him around anyhow.
11
SPEAKER_00
Oh, no.
11
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Let s see.
11
SPEAKER_00
Considering that this is one of the most famous feuds in music history, it really wasn t much of a feud at all.
11
SPEAKER_00
Sure, Neil Young might have been kind of a dick.
11
SPEAKER_01
It s like I wrote this article.
11
SPEAKER_00
I know.
11
SPEAKER_00
Kind of a dick to Lump Skinner and other Southern rockers of the era in with slavery?
11
SPEAKER_00
The era in with slavery and the South less than stellar racial past.
11
SPEAKER_00
And Skinner might ve taken a jab at Young in one of their most famous songs, but everyone made up rather quickly.
11
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Young apologized.
11
SPEAKER_00
The guys in Skinner had said it was cool and it turned out to just be one big misunderstanding.
11
SPEAKER_00
Lump Skinner.
11
SPEAKER_00
Oh, he lumped Lynyrd Skynyrd in with other Southern rockers that were racist.
11
SPEAKER_01
Yes, yes, yes.
11
SPEAKER_00
Okay, I see.
11
SPEAKER_00
Number two, Oasis versus Blur.
11
SPEAKER_01
Right, this one I remember.
11
SPEAKER_00
Really?
11
SPEAKER_00
I don t know any, I m so peaceful, I just don t know.
11
SPEAKER_01
Don t get into feuds.
11
SPEAKER_00
And one is The Smiths versus The Cure.
11
SPEAKER_01
Oh, read that to me, because those were two of my favorite bands.
11
SPEAKER_01
Maybe at the same time they were my favorite bands.
11
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What makes the battle between Morrissey and Robert Smith so great?
11
SPEAKER_00
Well, for one thing, it s the Smiths versus Smith.
11
SPEAKER_00
For another, it s basically the fight to determine who s the most important sad musician of all time.
11
SPEAKER_00
Maybe the highlight of the entire argument was Smith s passive-aggressive masterpiece saying, he s only in the feud because Morrissey started it, but he s also never liked a single song Morrissey s done.
11
SPEAKER_00
It s one of those great wars of general dislike that will never be resolved.
11
SPEAKER_00
After all, they ve been going at it for about 30 years now.
11
SPEAKER_01
Oh, congratulations.
11
SPEAKER_00
Hmm, interesting.
11
SPEAKER_00
Beatles versus Beach Boys, which was what you said, is not on this list.
11
SPEAKER_01
It s not on there.
11
SPEAKER_01
Brian Wilson, you know, they say that s what made Brian Wilson go crazy.
11
SPEAKER_01
Although clearly he must ve had some foundational.
11
SPEAKER_00
They said Beatles did?
11
SPEAKER_01
Yes, because they were in this album, album, album, album, raising the bar, raising the bar, and the Beatles did the White Album.
11
SPEAKER_00
Right.
11
SPEAKER_01
And he had done Pet Sounds.
11
SPEAKER_01
And then maybe when he heard Sergeant Pepper,
11
SPEAKER_01
he lost his mind, like, I m not gonna be, this is the lore.
11
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
11
SPEAKER_01
Once he heard Sgt.
11
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Pepper or the White Album, one of the two, he was like, well, that s that, I can t catch that.
11
SPEAKER_00
Okay, I wanna read this one too.
11
SPEAKER_00
This is from Pace.
11
SPEAKER_00
This is the 10 most infamous band feuds in rock history, but this seems like it s- Between band members.
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_01
Sure.
11
SPEAKER_00
And this is a ding, ding, ding.
11
SPEAKER_01
Oh, okay.
11
SPEAKER_00
To Soulmate.
11
SPEAKER_01
Oh, sure, sure, sure.
11
SPEAKER_00
Working relationships.
11
SPEAKER_00
Okay, number 10, Rolling Stones, Mick Jagger versus Keith Richards.
11
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, they can t.
11
SPEAKER_01
Do you ever listen to interviews about them?
11
SPEAKER_00
No.
11
SPEAKER_01
Or I read Keith Richards  book.
11
SPEAKER_01
They talk so poorly about each other and have for 50 years.
11
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
11
SPEAKER_01
But they keep rocking.
11
SPEAKER_00
Nine, Simon and Garfunkel.
11
SPEAKER_01
Oh, that s unexpected.
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_01
Two peaceful dudes singing about.
11
SPEAKER_00
It says the two folk musicians recorded their last album, 1970s highly successful bridge over troubled water at a time when their personal relationship was rapidly deteriorating.
11
SPEAKER_00
The two couldn t decide on the 12th and final song on the album and refused to record each other s choices.
11
SPEAKER_00
So the album was released with only 11 tracks.
11
SPEAKER_00
Then in the late 80s, a reunion album was planned, but Simon unexpectedly removed Garfunkel s vocals and released the disc solo.
11
SPEAKER_00
A couple of years later, when the duo was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, Art made the major decision to put the past behind him and publicly praised Paul for his songwriting ability.
11
SPEAKER_00
Paul responded by saying, Arthur and I agree about almost nothing, but it s true, I have enriched his life quite a bit.
11
SPEAKER_01
Oopsie, well, not so gracious.
11
SPEAKER_01
Oh, wowie.
11
SPEAKER_01
He did not take on Buddhism, I don t think.
11
SPEAKER_00
No.
11
SPEAKER_00
Eight, the Everly brothers, Don Everly versus Phil Everly.
11
SPEAKER_00
Okay, Pink Floyd, David Gilmore versus Roger Waters.
11
SPEAKER_00
Beatles, obviously, Lennon versus McCartney.
12
SPEAKER_01
Guns N  Roses, Axl versus Guns N  Roses.
12
SPEAKER_00
Well, probably Slash or just everyone in the band.
12
SPEAKER_00
Probably everyone, I guess.
12
SPEAKER_01
For the Kinks, Ray Davies versus Dave Davies.
12
SPEAKER_01
His name s Dave Davies?
12
SPEAKER_00
Dave Davies, David Davies.
12
SPEAKER_01
The Beach Boys, Mike Love versus Brian Wilson.
12
SPEAKER_01
Oasis, man, Oasis in all these.
12
SPEAKER_00
Is it Gallagher?
12
SPEAKER_01
Noel Gallagher versus Liam Gallagher.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, but have you seen these guys in interviews?
12
SPEAKER_01
No.
12
SPEAKER_00
Oh my God, you should go down a rabbit hole.
12
SPEAKER_00
They hate being interviewed.
12
SPEAKER_00
I don t know why they do any interviews.
12
SPEAKER_00
They re such misanthropes.
12
SPEAKER_01
They haven t seen each other in a long time.
12
SPEAKER_00
Let s see if we can get them back.
12
SPEAKER_00
Let s get them on the show together.
12
SPEAKER_01
Oh my God.
12
SPEAKER_01
Wait, I want to read this.
12
SPEAKER_01
The two brothers have admitted that they ve been continually at odds ever since sharing a bedroom in their childhood home.
12
SPEAKER_01
But over 30 years of fighting finally took its toll on the brothers on the night of August 28th, 2009.
12
SPEAKER_01
A mere minutes before the band was set to take the stage in Paris, the two siblings engaged in a violent backstage fight
12
SPEAKER_01
that reportedly involved Liam smashing his older brother s guitar.
12
SPEAKER_01
It was the second reported violent incident surrounding the brothers.
12
SPEAKER_01
Years earlier, Liam supposedly hit Noel over the head with the tambourine.
12
SPEAKER_01
Noel drove off and the band s manager went on stage and canceled the show saying, Oasis does not exist anymore.
12
SPEAKER_00
Oh my God.
12
SPEAKER_01
Two hours later, a message from Noel appeared on the band s website reading, I simply could not go on working with Liam a day longer.
12
SPEAKER_01
The two haven t seen each other since.
12
SPEAKER_00
Oh boy.
12
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
12
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
12
SPEAKER_01
Okay, number one, Mayhem, Varg.
12
SPEAKER_00
Who knows?
12
SPEAKER_00
I ve never heard.
12
SPEAKER_00
What?
12
SPEAKER_01
That shouldn t be number one.
12
SPEAKER_01
Never even heard of it.
12
SPEAKER_00
That s the writer s favorite band.
12
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, exactly.
12
SPEAKER_01
All right, well, that was fun.
12
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
12
SPEAKER_01
Okay, let s see.
12
SPEAKER_01
Do I have anything else?
12
SPEAKER_01
Well, it s funny.
12
SPEAKER_01
This is Sim, ding, ding, ding, duck, duck, goose.
12
SPEAKER_01
He mentioned Oasis also, and I was just in a restaurant with Callie, and Oasis was playing.
12
SPEAKER_00
Wonderwall?
12
SPEAKER_01
It wasn t Wonderwall.
12
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
12
SPEAKER_01
But I can t listen to Oasis.
12
SPEAKER_00
Sure, sure.
12
SPEAKER_01
Like thinking about nostalgia, when I hear it, I am transported back to, I guess, high school, but in a way I don t like.
12
SPEAKER_01
Right.
12
SPEAKER_01
It makes me feel very, like, I guess depressed.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
12
SPEAKER_01
I guess it depresses me.
12
SPEAKER_00
Don t play it.
12
SPEAKER_01
So I m not going to play it.
12
SPEAKER_01
Wonderwall was so... You re my wonderwall.
12
SPEAKER_01
One time Callie had a suitor who just wrote her the lyrics to Wonderwall.
12
SPEAKER_00
That s a cheat.
12
SPEAKER_00
That s a big time cheat.
12
SPEAKER_01
No, yeah, so.
12
SPEAKER_01
Well, that s all the facts for Billy Joe.
12
SPEAKER_01
Oh, wonderful.
12
SPEAKER_00
Well, I loved meeting him and that was really fun.
12
SPEAKER_00
It was fun.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and I love these rivalries.
12
SPEAKER_00
I hate to admit it.
12
SPEAKER_00
It s fun to hear.
12
SPEAKER_00
I know.
12
SPEAKER_00
It s the worst part of ourselves, but I hope that doesn t go away when I m a Buddhist.
12
SPEAKER_01
It will.
12
SPEAKER_01
You re not gonna understand why people are throwing away their talent.
12
SPEAKER_00
sending all their energy in the wrong direction.
12
SPEAKER_00
It s true.
12
SPEAKER_00
Well, I love you.
12
SPEAKER_01
I love you.
12
SPEAKER_01
Happy birthday.
12
SPEAKER_00
Let s build on these shards.
12
SPEAKER_01
Let s do it.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.