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Calling all conscious achievers who are seeking more community and connection, I ve got an invitation for you.
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Join me at this year s Summit of Greatness this September 7th through 9th in my hometown of Columbus, Ohio to unleash your true greatness.
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This is the one time a year
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that I gather the greatness community together in person for a powerful, transformative weekend.
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People come from all over the world, and you can expect to hear from inspiring speakers like Inky Johnson, Jaspreet Singh, Vanessa Van Edwards, Jen Cinchero, and many more.
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You ll also be able to dance your heart out to live music, get your body moving with group workouts, and connect with others at our evening socials.
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So if you re ready to learn, heal, and grow alongside other incredible individuals in the greatness community, then you can learn more at lewishouse.com slash summit 2023.
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Make sure to grab your ticket, invite your friends, and I ll see you there.
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Understand that arguments aren t always meant to be worn so there s a trap of thinking that there can only be one on top of the mountain and If that is true, then that s a very lonely place to be and arguments in my view are an opportunity to create understanding
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Welcome to the School of Greatness.
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My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur.
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And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness.
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Thanks for spending some time with me today.
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Now let the class begin.
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You are a board certified Texas trial lawyer that has gone viral on social media with your daily messages of inspiration, building confidence, how to deal with touchy situations and conversations, arguments, how to deal with
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unpleasant human beings and how to stay calm and peaceful and create amazing outcomes in conversations.
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And I m curious, with all of your experience as a trial lawyer,
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Where was the time that you were the most in the stickiest situation in a trial where you thought, there s no way I m going to get out of this or we re not going to win this case because I don t have the skill set or it s not going our way?
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And what did that teach you about how to be more prepared for future cases?
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So one of my first trials that I had, it was the first one by myself.
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Often in the legal world, you have like an associate, you have a partner, you have somebody who s with you.
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And that was the first one by myself.
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And this was a larger case.
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And when you get there, there s this perception, especially when you re young, you know, you re
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The ink on your signature card isn t, on your bar card isn t dry yet.
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They can smell the green on it.
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Yeah, you have no clue what you re doing.
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No, and you can feel that pressure because most of the time, even when you re, I don t know, I am 26, 28.
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I m younger than my client.
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And so there s like... But that just happens.
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He doesn t have confidence in you.
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Right, right.
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It s just so there s that level of trust.
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I mean, I know I m going to be doing it.
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And it was a full panel.
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You had different juries depending on what court it s in.
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There s like county courts that are six, different constitutional courts, and a court of 12.
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That s a typical panel that you see on TV.
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So this was panel of 12?
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Yeah, panel of 12.
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And it was a larger case.
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The other side had two attorneys on it from a bigger firm.
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And they were the ones that were like, suit and tie, looked clean.
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It ended up working out for me that way, but I got in a sticky situation.
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when I was talking with a witness, and I was crossing this witness, and I started to get, like, really defensive.
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I started to let what they were saying get after me.
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You have these difficult witnesses who... This wasn t your witness, this was the other... This was not my witness, this was an expert on the other side.
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So, these are people who are paid.
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obscene amounts of money from the other side to testify on an expert opinion.
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But this guy was, he s a veteran.
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I mean, he knew what to say.
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Oh, he chewed me up like the finest piece of steak, man.
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I mean, he got me good.
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But what I took away from that, that was just day one.
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That was just day one.
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I ended up winning the trial, but it was...
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Because I didn t allow myself.
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So we did a second day.
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That s the second time for him to go on the stand.
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Oh, wow.
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And the next day I did something different.
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I aligned my thoughts of how I wanted to approach the situation before I even got in it.
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I didn t do that the first day.
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Give me an example.
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What does that mean?
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Yeah, so...
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Typically, at what we re doing every day, we re just going by the suit of our pants.
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You re just in it.
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It s easy to get overwhelmed.
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It s easy to get in that moment.
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And all of a sudden, you re just kind of surviving in the conversation.
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So you re looking for different ways to maybe hurt somebody, to have a zinger.
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To defend yourself.
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You got it.
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Yeah, very much so.
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And I remember getting in my car going, I can t do that again.
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I can t do that again.
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And I started coming up with different phrases that I would tell myself to help align me in the moment.
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When he does this again, when I get defensive again, when I get triggered and he says something that I know isn t cool, but he s trying to get under my skin, how am I going to respond?
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You got it, you got it.
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And so there was this need for me being on my own.
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I didn t have any other people from the firm with me.
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of trying to prove myself.
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And sometimes when we have that pressure on, there s that need to over-promise, over-do, and you end up, you know, what you say, trying to look cute, you know, and you overextend yourself.
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And this time I wasn t gonna do that.
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So I started to write things on the top of my yellow notepad to kind of just like make sure I sunk these things into my brain, I d say, when I was just like, just be Jefferson.
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don t worry about trying to be some, you know, macho court attorney on TV, just be you, just be you.
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And who Jefferson is, is a guy that I hear somebody get defensive, I go, okay.
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You know, it s like, oh, all right.
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And I just, I just water off a duck s back.
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And so it was that first step that now all of a sudden, his snarkiness,
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When I got defensive, it justified him getting more sorry.
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Oh, right.
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Yeah.
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He just ratcheted up.
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It s like, I got you.
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Every time.
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I mean, dig in even deeper.
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You got it.
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But me just going, well, okay.
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Like, allowing him to have his moment.
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it made him look worse.
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Yeah, because now he looked like the jerk.
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Now, he started to lose credibility.
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And now, the scales begin to tip.
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And when the other side begins to object more, it looks like they re trying to hide something more.
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And so, I took the strategy of, here I am, fighting for my client, just me.
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and here he is, they re the ones in the suits, they re the ones with money, they re the ones that are objecting, what does that say?
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Wow, that s smart.
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Yeah, and so what they would do is they would have, they d bring in their paralegals, like their team, and bring all these boxes, and they wouldn t do it themselves.
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Papers and everything else.
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Yeah, yeah, they had these banker boxes, Redwells, and they wouldn t do it themselves.
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The attorneys wouldn t, they would have their staff do it.
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I wasn t gonna do that.
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So, I made sure the jury, I would keep my box in the hallway until the jury got there.
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And so, I would have two boxes and let the jury see me carry my two heavy boxes in and put them down myself.
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And so, I just wanted them to always think that, which one looks more credible?
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Which one looks more authentic to, you know, their practice?
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Who cares about the case?
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Yeah.
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Exactly.
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And all of a sudden, because these jurors are just looking at us.
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I mean, they don t have anything else better to do in the day.
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I mean, they re given their civic duty, it s amazing, but when they sit in that chair, it s, it s, you re the show for them.
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And you ve gotta present a compelling case, and you ve got to... Yeah.
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...persuade, influence, and enroll people in a story of your truth.
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Right.
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It is my job to tell my client s truth and tell my client s story.
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And it s just an odd profession because, Lewis, I get hired to handle other people s problems with people that I don t have a problem with.
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I don t have any problem with them, but I guess I do now.
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And then to make it worse, the other side hires an attorney whose sole job is to make me look bad.
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Solely just to make me lose.
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And you have a judge that just decides the rest.
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And there s, I mean, every call that you have with opposing counsel, every time you re talking to a judge.
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judge you re having a cross-examinal witness it is you can see why the profession is very well suited for people that are good at dealing with communication yes because if you can t it s not the one for you what i m hearing you say is the
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is now when you go into a case, you have an intention.
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When the worst case scenario happens, how am I going to respond?
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I m going to just be Jefferson or I m going to have these other mantras or whatever you want to call them, intentions to remind myself to lean into that.
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Is that what I m hearing you say?
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You got it.
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I translate that with my clients.
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Just like I do it, I have to train them
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and going in the hot seat.
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Not get defensive, not get active.
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They re gonna do this, they re gonna get under your skin, they re gonna call you a liar.
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You got it.
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And because your case might depend solely on how you behave.
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Isn t that interesting?
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It doesn t matter if you were actually right or wrong.
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It s how you behave and your energy being presented to a jury.
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Absolutely.
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And that is happening in real life, in everyday conversations, in your career, your relationships.
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Other opportunities in life is how you present yourself.
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A thousand percent.
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It doesn t matter if you actually have the skills, the credibility, the credentials to get the great opportunities.
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It s how you present the skills, credentials, and credibilities to the person or people in front of you.
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Right.
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And my client could have all the facts in their favor.
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But if they re a jerk, your case is over.
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Wow.
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It s not gonna happen.
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It doesn t matter if you broke the law or you didn t break the law.
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Yeah.
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It s how you present your situation.
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Well, there s some aspect of it that an appellate court might come back and say, oh, yeah, the laws.
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But when it comes to jury trials, when it comes to jury trials, especially civil, criminal law is different.
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But on the civil side of things, they can dump your case if they just don t like you.
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We don t want this person to win.
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Yeah, because if somebody who... Here s an example.
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So, I had a case I was on the defense of.
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And lady had been hurt in an accident.
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And I knew very much that she was... She acted like she was A-okay.
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And that s okay, because you can be hurt in an accident and turn out to be fine later.
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There s nothing wrong with that.
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But what she had done was overextended herself by saying that the accident kept her from holding her grandkids.
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Accident kept her from being able to go hike and enjoy all these things.
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She milked it.
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She milked it bad.
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And so when that kind of happens, what I do is just lean back like, okay, now she s saying something.
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Now she s giving me something aside from her facts that I can use.
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And what she didn t even think about was she had posted all these pictures.
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Photos on Instagram.
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Publicly.
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of holding grandbabies.
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They had gone on like three vacations to Hawaii.
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Her on top of a mountain.
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Exactly, it s exactly what it was.
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Next to like some like Mount Summit, okay.
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And that next day I come in and it s my turn to cross examine.
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And I said, Ms.
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So-and-so, I heard you say something the other day that, well, almost broke my heart.
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You said that life s just not worth living.
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Did I read that right?
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And she says, yes, that s correct.
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Waterworks start coming up again.
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Wow.
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All right, she cried both times.
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There s nothing wrong with crying, that s not what I m saying, but she manufactured those very quickly.
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And I said, there s some things I want us to look.
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Take the photos out, mute it down after the photos.
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Kay s gone, gone in a matter of seconds.
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And it was my client who caused the accident.
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But her case was, it shouldn t have.
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But it was not a major accident.
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But the issue was, once you lose your credibility, you cannot, in that sense, you cannot get it back.
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Wow.
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And so if she had just stayed true to who she was and been honest of, no, we ve been able to go on vacations and do some things, but this accent really caused me some pain back then.
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And I just looking for a way to try and do X, Y, and Z. But she, she got out of that.
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She got out of that one.
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Wow.
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That s funny, man.
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That s crazy.
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It s fun.
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It s fun stuff.
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Now, when you re thinking about questioning or examining someone, um,
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What is the psychology that you think about before you ask the first question to set someone up, whether they re on your team or someone you re going against, I guess, in court, to set them up for the outcome you want to create?
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What s the psychology you think about in order to get the results in any conversation?
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So I m gonna answer that in two spots.
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One, if it s somebody I am against, all right, versus somebody who s with me.
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The one against is more fun.
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So, I know that when I sit down and I m gonna depose a witness, meaning I m asking them questions prior to trial.
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Yes.
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They re not going to like me.
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They know that.
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They think I m the bad guy, because they don t know.
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They just know what they hear on TV.
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And I know right away that the person that I see is not the person that I m talking to.
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what we re about to exchange in that moment is they re gonna reveal to me conflict that is just gonna be a window into the struggle that they re feeling in that moment.
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that there are things that they carried into that room that they were carrying days, months, hours before they even saw me.
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And that is probably one of the number one keys of when you deal with these very difficult conversations is the issue they put up is rarely the real issue.
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It s not that.
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I mean, you can say something even at home, you get in an argument with a spouse or a girlfriend and you re going, where s this coming from?
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Well, it turns out, you know, at eight o clock that morning, somebody had cut them off in traffic, and they had a bad email, and they... And there it goes.
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Their mom said something, and you just happen to be the outlet.
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That s the ability to recognize that, and use that as a place to connect, rather than a place to continue to, you know, flare up.
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How do you use that...
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whether it s someone personal in your life or someone that you re working with in court.
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When you know it s not who they are, it s the baggage they re carrying to that conversation or the portrayal of the baggage or whatever, how do you... use it to your advantage as opposed to get defensive and guarded?
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Yeah.
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Whether it s your wife, a friend, or someone in trial.
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Sometimes you have to take them outside, like, of their head.
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So if you and I are in talking in here and say, we get in an argument, we re just here in this room.
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We take a step outside, then you get some perspective.
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Then you have some clarity.
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What do we say when we get overwhelmed?
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I need some space.
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I need to go take a walk.
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It s the same way when we re having a conversation.
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I can have, if I sense something that in that moment I can do one of two things, I can either react
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meaning I can get defensive or I can respond.
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Responding is a way that says, I m trying to understand you.
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Reaction says,
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I have no say in it.
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You have the cause, this is the effect, and that has no accountability in that.
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Responding says, I m taking full accountability for my feelings that only I can touch.
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That s the big difference.
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How do you not get triggered emotionally, though, in life?
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Like, personally, if someone s coming at you or attacking you or making you wrong, how do you keep your cool and not get defensive and take things personally?
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Or do you?
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It s very natural to take things personally, but what I say before I want to take things personally is I ll say, I ll say, put it down, Jefferson.
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I ll say, put it down.
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Most of the time when we re taking something personally, we re picking something up that nobody asks us to carry.
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And we re just choosing to hold on to it, choosing to say, this was meant for me.
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And that s not always the case.
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And too many times we get
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Somebody says, why are you taking this so personally?
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And they turn around, we re holding it all.
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Like, well, why are you holding that?
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I didn t ask you to hold any of that.
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So you get in a position to where the how personal you take something is a direct reflection of how much grace you give other people.
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And if I start to take things too personally, oh, well, somebody s just going slow in front of me on purpose.
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They re showing up late because they wanna show a sign to me.
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It s just all these different ways of treating things negatively.
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For the most part, we take it personally.
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You just drop it, drop that thought because you re not giving them enough grace.
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When did you learn to let things go and put things down?
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Did you have this calm about you as a kid, or did something over time help you realize, okay, I don t need to hold on to this baggage or stress?
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It s just been a...
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As if it s a just blacksmith hitting on the piece of hot metal man I just my whole life has been that from really yeah from my upbringing a lot of attorneys in the family I m the oldest for I love being the big brother that meant I didn t do a lot of mediating with siblings a lot of I Was the kid in the corner who just got to hear all the courtroom stories and so they would teach you how to
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project and how to present and how to persuade and how to at pace.
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I mean, it was, it was awesome.
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And that just kind of translated with what, what I like.
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Some people are really good at math or economics or accounting.
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Not me.
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This is my thing.
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Sure.
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Sure.
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Yeah.
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I think a lot of people in today s world want to be great at winning arguments.
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What would you say, if you wanted to win an argument, would be the three keys to set yourself up for success?
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Number one would be understand that arguments aren t always meant to be worn.
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So there s a trap of thinking that there can only be one on top of the mountain.
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And if that is true, then that s a very lonely place to be.
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And arguments, in my view, are an opportunity to create understanding.
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It s okay to have conflict.
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You and I can argue about something.
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But when it gets negative, that s when it s bad.
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You and I could argue of who s the best baseball team.
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And, you know, that s a disagreement.
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That ratchets up a little bit more and becomes an argument.
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Maybe we get a little bit more passionate.
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Sure.
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But...
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Number one is that don t get into the trap of thinking that you have to win it.
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Because when you do, it s only gonna breed contempt.
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Because it comes at a cost.
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And maybe you made fun of them, maybe you said something that was too final, too close to the best.
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So, number two is know what the end goal is.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oftentimes we get into this argument, and what happens, we re like 10 minutes into it, and we go, how do we start this?
2
SPEAKER_01
How did we even get here?
2
SPEAKER_01
What were we arguing about in the first place?
2
SPEAKER_01
And that meant that it wasn t real.
2
SPEAKER_01
Most of the time when that happens, it means that the true issue you were arguing about was just a red herring.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s just the surface.
2
SPEAKER_01
So, you have to know where you re gonna go in the argument.
2
SPEAKER_01
So, what the final outcome is.
2
SPEAKER_01
And number two, how are you gonna heal it?
2
SPEAKER_01
Because if it s an issue of, especially of emotion,
2
SPEAKER_01
if you don t heal it in a way that is going to continue to create that positive understanding and interaction, you will lose every time.
2
SPEAKER_00
How to heal the argument or how to heal the disagreement or whatever is happening between you and the other person.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right, which involves taking accountability for what your behavior has done.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
One of the worst ways to do that is to say, well, I would have done it had you not done, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
I wouldn t have said this had you not said that.
2
SPEAKER_01
No, you don t need to.
2
SPEAKER_01
Once you start tallying who did what, you re already in a losing situation.
2
SPEAKER_01
The correct response is, I m sorry that I said this, I could have done better.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that acknowledgment of, I shouldn t have said that, I didn t mean that, I m going to do better.
2
SPEAKER_01
That little promise says, I m going to heal this, rather than,
2
SPEAKER_01
go, go kick rocks.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m curious, you know, it sounds like something that, that type of language sounds like something that would work really well in intimate relationship, a partner, uh, you know, in a marriage.
2
SPEAKER_00
if people spoke like that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Hey, I didn t mean it like that, I m really sorry.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m sorry if that hurt you.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s not what I really meant.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m sure that would help heal and mend arguments and disagreements in a beautiful, loving way.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m curious, from your experience, you ve been married 11 years now, is that correct?
2
SPEAKER_01
11, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
You ve been doing trial law for how long?
2
SPEAKER_00
Eight.
2
SPEAKER_00
Eight years.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so... Yeah, about 10 years, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Roughly about the same time.
2
SPEAKER_00
What is the number one skill you bring to trial law that you aren t as good in marriage and relationships?
2
SPEAKER_00
And what is the number one thing you do well in your marriage that you wish you did better in trial law?
2
SPEAKER_01
The first scenario of what do I do well at court that I don t do well at home?
2
SPEAKER_01
Or not as well.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, not as well.
2
SPEAKER_01
Manage my emotions.
2
SPEAKER_00
You manage your emotions really well at court.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes, you have to.
2
SPEAKER_01
I can t be acting a fool.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know what I m saying?
2
SPEAKER_01
There s too much at stake and you re, as a profession, that s not a place to be doing that versus at home.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I get mad about, I mean, all kinds of things.
2
SPEAKER_00
Really?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, we, we, I m human.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, but of course, I m not somebody who lashes out.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m not, I m not a big emotionally reactive, uh, person.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m, I m pretty much like this.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
But that doesn t mean that the fifth time I, you know, my sons asked me to,
2
SPEAKER_01
for a popsicle that it s, no man, it s after bedtime.
2
SPEAKER_01
We ve already eaten one today.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s time to go to bed.
2
SPEAKER_01
I ve already said no.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
I ve already said no.
2
SPEAKER_01
And like, you just, it s easy to try and get that.
2
SPEAKER_01
So, dealing with those emotions, I also think a lot of that is,
2
SPEAKER_01
Home is a safe place to express and feel your emotions.
2
SPEAKER_01
Versus in the workplace, not so much.
2
SPEAKER_00
You may not succeed as well in your career or accelerate your career.
2
SPEAKER_00
Not in mine.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, if you are.
2
SPEAKER_01
Because if you re always emotionally reactive in my profession, you re just seen as a hothead and somebody that nobody can work with.
2
SPEAKER_00
Not credible.
2
SPEAKER_01
No, not credible.
2
SPEAKER_01
On the flip side of it, what do I do well at home?
2
SPEAKER_01
that I don t do nearly as well in the workplace.
2
SPEAKER_01
Man, that s hard.
2
SPEAKER_01
I feel like what we do really well at home is sometimes have very direct, fast arguments.
2
SPEAKER_01
My wife s also an attorney.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, man.
2
SPEAKER_00
You both got your case.
2
SPEAKER_01
You re both.
2
SPEAKER_01
But our arguments are extremely efficient.
2
SPEAKER_01
I can count on one hand the amount of times they ve actually been, like, long.
2
SPEAKER_01
Really?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s typically pretty quick.
2
SPEAKER_00
How do you create quick arguments?
2
SPEAKER_00
How do you end arguments quickly?
2
SPEAKER_00
Quick apologies.
2
SPEAKER_00
Really?
2
SPEAKER_00
And you both apologize fast?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes, but we will kind of package it.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s not like we have a formula or like, let s go to the book.
2
SPEAKER_01
This is what we ve like developed over time is when I heard you say this, it made me think this, I didn t mean that.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay, well, next time I ll try to ask you this before I go there.
2
SPEAKER_00
I won t make an assumption.
2
SPEAKER_00
You got it.
2
SPEAKER_00
I won t get upset right away without asking you further.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Interrogations, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
You got it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
I can t tell you how many times I ll hear, like, stop cross-examining.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like, she can pick it up immediately.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I don t mean to do it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s just happening, but... Sure.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
She quickly shuts that down.
2
SPEAKER_00
What is a top strategy or technique that you ve learned ethically to get what you want from people, to persuade, influence, and enroll others
2
SPEAKER_00
strangers or people you know very well and getting something you want.
2
SPEAKER_01
You have to give them a reason to want to give it to you.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it needs to come from a place of making them happy to do so.
2
SPEAKER_01
And when it becomes a place of
2
SPEAKER_01
rather a negotiation, which makes them feel like they ve lost something.
2
SPEAKER_01
You couch it and frame it in a way that feels like they ve gained something.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so if you and I are across a table in a negotiation, whatever you give, you ve lost.
2
SPEAKER_01
But if I can say, you know what, Lewis, man, you ve just been doing so well.
2
SPEAKER_01
You hit 3 million on YouTube now.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, your stuff s just going off the charts.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know what you could be really good at and I d love to see is X, Y, and Z. And all of a sudden, it s like a shift of you re sitting on the same side of the table as me.
2
SPEAKER_01
And now I m trying to help you inspire other thoughts
2
SPEAKER_01
that are also aligned with what I want.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that s a much, now you re going to say, oh, that sounds sneaky.
2
SPEAKER_01
No, it s not.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s actually getting what you need sometimes in a way that is also benefiting the other person.
2
SPEAKER_01
I d much rather that way than say, I don t like you, you don t like me, we re just going to have a bloodbath.
2
SPEAKER_01
have at it, may the best guy win.
2
SPEAKER_01
So just don t ask for a pay arm wrestle right now.
2
SPEAKER_01
You re going to win that one.
2
SPEAKER_00
When you go into a negotiation and you know you re about to negotiate something, what is the best intention you should have going into it so that you can create the best outcome for you?
3
SPEAKER_01
and the other person still feels like they didn t lose.
3
SPEAKER_01
So Chris Foss  book is fantastic, Never Split the Difference, and one of the things about tactical empathy is making the other person feel like you want the best for them, that you re in their camp.
3
SPEAKER_01
And you re not going to get emotionally reactive in the answer.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re already addressing the issues that you re expecting them to think of.
3
SPEAKER_01
So, like you ll say, you re probably thinking that X, Y, and Z. It sounds to me like he s already kind of giving these hints of what he s already picking up on.
3
SPEAKER_01
And when you say what already they are thinking in their mind, you pull it out on the table really quickly, and then that s it.
3
SPEAKER_01
What I will do a lot of the times is somebody gives some kind of objection, not like in the legal sense in a courtroom, but I ll say, aside from that, aside from what you just said, anything else that I should know about?
3
SPEAKER_01
And they say, no.
3
SPEAKER_01
Great.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then I ll typically give it like a two-path thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I will ask more questions.
3
SPEAKER_01
So typically when I hear that, it means that they really don t wanna talk to me, and that s okay if you re not ready to right now.
3
SPEAKER_01
If there s some they actually do want to talk about, they re not sure what they want to say.
3
SPEAKER_01
Is it really one or two for you?
3
SPEAKER_01
And then you d be able to kind of delve for that.
3
SPEAKER_01
But it s inviting them into a way that it s going to get you what you want at the end.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right, right.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s interesting.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
And how do you build confidence in conversations with people that are difficult, that are smarter than you, potentially, that are older than you?
3
SPEAKER_00
How do you create confidence?
3
SPEAKER_00
in challenging conversations to make sure that you re on the same play field with the other person and you get the results you want in the conversation, whether it s just a conversation or a negotiation.
3
SPEAKER_01
One would be to do not let defensiveness be your first step.
3
SPEAKER_01
As soon as you take that step, you ve lost.
3
SPEAKER_01
A better way to do it is let your breath be the first word that you say.
3
SPEAKER_01
So if you think of your breath as a word, it kind of changes your mind of, okay, now I can address this.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because what we ll do is we ll hold our breath like that.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then, I mean, you know, this thing kicks in our nerves, then comes in the adrenaline, then comes in the defensiveness.
3
SPEAKER_01
And you realized, I haven t even breathed yet.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, and when it comes to confidence, of course we can say, it s the way you project, it s the way you smile, it s the way you pace your conversation, keeping your voice low, keeping your words slow.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s all these kinds of things.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s the perception that I don t have to say anything more than what I need to say.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because oftentimes, more words says less.
3
SPEAKER_00
You need to eliminate that.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, that s where it says more.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Every time.
3
SPEAKER_00
What s it been like over the last year?
3
SPEAKER_00
You were a trial lawyer for seven, eight years, you know, small town, Texas.
3
SPEAKER_00
and living your life, kids, married.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then all of a sudden you say, you know what, I think I m going to share some of these things on social media, essentially a year, year and a half ago.
3
SPEAKER_00
And in the last year and a half, it s gone from a couple of videos here and there to over 5 million followers.
3
SPEAKER_00
And people really coming to you for wisdom and advice, and now your business growing.
3
SPEAKER_00
the law firm growing and opportunities coming to you.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
What has that experience done for you and your confidence and also your personal life?
3
SPEAKER_00
And do you feel more stressed or overwhelmed or a sense of pressure now that you have this larger following and people looking to you for advice?
3
SPEAKER_01
Yes, it has helped my law firm in a big way because I don t tell people what I do, but they re interested in it.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so they go and find me.
3
SPEAKER_01
Now, sometimes I ll just get calls from people who just want to talk.
3
SPEAKER_01
Sure.
3
SPEAKER_01
Or people who will act like they re a client just so they can talk.
3
SPEAKER_01
But by and large, it s been very helpful for my business.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s always helpful for my trials.
3
SPEAKER_01
I have several trial settings this fall.
3
SPEAKER_01
There s not a judge who hasn t seen the videos.
3
SPEAKER_01
Really?
3
SPEAKER_01
There s not an opposing counsel who hasn t seen the videos.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s good and bad, because it makes me very hyper-aware of my interactions with them, because as soon as I say one thing that s off, then, oh, Jefferson s not who he is, which is just not true, but...
3
SPEAKER_01
I would say, absolutely, it s built a lot more pressure.
3
SPEAKER_01
Really?
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think it was one of the sources of when I had my first panic attack at the beginning of this year.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because even though you have more followers, it s also very isolating in a way because
3
SPEAKER_01
I know law very well, and when I had that, I had a lot of people at my table, so to speak.
3
SPEAKER_01
I had mentors, I had friends, I had other people who... I mean, other lawyers.
3
SPEAKER_01
I had my family.
3
SPEAKER_01
I had studied it.
3
SPEAKER_01
I knew... I d read all the things.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it started out awesome.
3
SPEAKER_01
The social media thing was just going in my car for a little bit and making a video that was off the top of my head.
3
SPEAKER_01
And now it s gotten much more serious.
3
SPEAKER_01
And with that, there s a pressure of not wanting to give bad advice.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m certainly never going to act like I know everything.
3
SPEAKER_01
Of course I can give bad advice.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it s inevitable.
3
SPEAKER_01
So you have that kind of feeling and it s a lot of eyes on you.
3
SPEAKER_01
So with anybody, it s kind of that.
3
SPEAKER_01
imposter syndrome, like, do I really know what I m saying?
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, do I really know it or am I just fooling everybody?
3
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so, you kind of have to battle that out of your head and go, no, nope, I ve done this, I ve done this.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like, when I say done, like, I ve lived this, I ve lived that, although this has been my life.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_01
And as long as I share my life and I m authentic to who I am, I m never going to be an imposter.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
Cause you started opening up recently and did some different videos about the, you know, kind of mental health, uh, panic attacks that you ve experienced.
3
SPEAKER_00
When did you have the first panic attack?
3
SPEAKER_00
How did that make you feel and how have you been able to manage that feeling of overwhelm or, you know, panic?
3
SPEAKER_01
It was in February where all of a sudden I had a whole bunch of videos that were taken off.
3
SPEAKER_01
Videos that I had posted like two weeks prior.
3
SPEAKER_01
Going viral.
3
SPEAKER_01
You got it.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I had like four of them all in a row.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it was me going, I don t know what s happening.
3
SPEAKER_01
Somebody at Instagram messed up.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like, you know, like the, this can t be.
3
SPEAKER_01
And as it continued to grow, then I started seeing more people with, I didn t have a blue check, all these more people with a blue check following me.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that was before you could buy it.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then I m seeing other celebrities and I m going, hold up here, what s happening?
3
SPEAKER_01
And then I knew I needed to get like build a website because I didn t have a website.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I m staying up super late, like working on some sketchy.
3
SPEAKER_00
Put something together.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, just anything, anything.
3
SPEAKER_01
There s no team, it s just this guy.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it was a little after midnight, wife, kids were asleep.
3
SPEAKER_01
And Louis, it felt like somebody had gotten that little piece of paper and just wafted it in front of my face, like a very cool, just rush.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I said out loud in the kitchen, I said, what was that?
3
SPEAKER_01
Because I was like, was this a ghost just, you know, jump over me?
3
SPEAKER_01
And just like that, it was, I just, all of a sudden I could hear it in my ears, tightness in my chest, and my whole system just started to like freak.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was convinced, I was convinced that was a heart attack and I was dying.
3
SPEAKER_01
Holy cow.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because I knew it could not have been anxiety.
3
SPEAKER_01
Really?
3
SPEAKER_01
Why?
3
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
3
SPEAKER_01
Like, I was like, I stress for breakfast.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I m chill.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
3
SPEAKER_01
Trials I ve had, you know what I mean?
3
SPEAKER_01
Stressful situations and money on the line and all this stuff.
3
SPEAKER_01
I eat stress.
3
SPEAKER_01
We can do this.
3
SPEAKER_01
I, I was, it was such an ignorant mindset, but at the moment I was like, you thought you were having a heart attack.
3
SPEAKER_01
I thought I was having a heart attack because there could be no other explanation in my mind because I don t have anxiety.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t have panic attack.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s for people who don t have their life together.
3
SPEAKER_01
That was the, that was the very wrong mindset.
3
SPEAKER_00
What happened during that night and how did you get through it?
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, well, I went to the ER because I thought I was dying.
3
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
3
SPEAKER_00
Did you drive yourself?
3
SPEAKER_00
Did your wife drive you?
3
SPEAKER_00
Did you call 911?
3
SPEAKER_00
I called 911, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Ambulance came to pick you up and the whole thing, the lights, sirens, they bring out the roller.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was shaking so badly, like uncontrollable shaking.
3
SPEAKER_01
I didn t know what was going on.
3
SPEAKER_01
All I knew was like, all I could tell my wife is something is not right.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like that s all I could get out of my mouth.
3
SPEAKER_01
Something is not right.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s true.
3
SPEAKER_01
Something was not right.
3
SPEAKER_01
My body s like, no.
3
SPEAKER_00
Your body was convulsing.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
My body was like, yeah, you re not right right now.
3
SPEAKER_01
It was like shutting down.
3
SPEAKER_01
System powered down.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
All of that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Holy cow.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
At 34 is the first time I ve ever had that kind of experience.
4
SPEAKER_00
It was very real.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, as physical and tangible as can be.
4
SPEAKER_00
Heart pounding.
4
SPEAKER_00
Oh, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so... Sweating, dizziness, all of it.
4
SPEAKER_00
I couldn t tell if I was gonna throw up.
4
SPEAKER_00
I was like, Lord, anytime, please.
4
SPEAKER_00
Because I hated the whole thing.
4
SPEAKER_00
It just felt like it was days while you re just shaking.
4
SPEAKER_00
So, I get down to the hospital.
4
SPEAKER_00
They run my blood work.
4
SPEAKER_00
By that time, I m having like...
4
SPEAKER_00
what you would call, I guess, aftershocks.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, I d be good, and then I d have another just, like, onset.
4
SPEAKER_00
That kind of intense heart palpitations?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and then it d go flat, and then I d just, like, everything in my body would, like, clench up.
4
SPEAKER_00
And that happened for, I don t know, two hours.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then they just said, well, you just, no heart attack, your heart s good.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, your blood work s fine.
4
SPEAKER_00
Everything was fine.
4
SPEAKER_00
Healthy as can be, but you just, you had a panic attack, and I was like, excuse me, what?
4
SPEAKER_00
And, like, you had a panic attack.
4
SPEAKER_00
I was like,
4
SPEAKER_00
No, I m sure yeah, yeah, I was like, I was like, are you sure you just it s okay.
4
SPEAKER_00
I ll get a heart monitor.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s okay Yeah, so that s panic attack and they said that how did they make you feel?
4
SPEAKER_00
It made me feel very normal and in in messed up it made me feel like I was something was wrong with me like it made me feel like I
4
SPEAKER_00
Oh, no, I am now I m one of them like now I m now I m somebody who can t control my thoughts now I m somebody who like now I am going then like the panic of the thoughts So some of those thoughts in my panic.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m the panic attack.
4
SPEAKER_00
You got it.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and and because in that moment I
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I can tell myself, of course, no, you re perfectly normal.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yes, you re supposed to have.
4
SPEAKER_00
Your body is, this is all natural.
4
SPEAKER_00
I could say that now.
4
SPEAKER_00
In that moment, it was, well, what s happening is my brain is falling apart because you would have these rapid thoughts that would come, these crazy thoughts that I could not stop.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like what thoughts?
4
SPEAKER_00
Oh, for whatever reason, they would revolve around like, for whatever reason, death was a trigger.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like any thought of dying or the topic of it would just like send my whole body into a fritz.
4
SPEAKER_00
And that s so bizarre coming from never in my life has this happened.
4
SPEAKER_00
Ever.
4
SPEAKER_00
And here I am, the guy who is, at the time, is going, it was the night that my following hit a million, is when it happened.
4
SPEAKER_00
Wow, the night you hit a million?
4
SPEAKER_00
The night I hit a million.
4
SPEAKER_00
But it was the thought of, here s this guy who gives all this communication advice about, you know, blah, blah, and I m just rippling, and I m just melting.
4
SPEAKER_00
I had another panic attack for the next eight days.
4
SPEAKER_00
Every day?
4
SPEAKER_00
Every day.
4
SPEAKER_00
Did you call the ER every time or no?
4
SPEAKER_01
No, no, no.
4
SPEAKER_00
You knew this was happening?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, the second time was at the office, and I was like, oh, no.
4
SPEAKER_00
I said it, I was like, oh, no.
4
SPEAKER_00
But at that point, I knew I wasn t dying, and that s a very big relief.
4
SPEAKER_01
How long did the second one last?
4
SPEAKER_01
Just as long.
4
SPEAKER_01
Just a couple hours?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
So you re sitting in the office for a couple hours, like laying down on the couch.
4
SPEAKER_00
Breathing.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m straight just like pulling out the Headspace app.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m working on my breathing.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m like, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
And the next days after that, it was the same?
4
SPEAKER_00
They got a little bit shorter, but it would happen at terrible times.
4
SPEAKER_00
Wow, man.
4
SPEAKER_00
And yeah, it was terrible.
4
SPEAKER_00
It was a horrible time.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then, um, I was like, man, I got to see what this is.
4
SPEAKER_00
I got to see what this is about.
4
SPEAKER_00
So I spent like a full day marked off my calendar of like, I am researching everything I want to know about this topic.
4
SPEAKER_00
Cause never in my life that I been on all radar.
4
SPEAKER_01
What d you find out about?
4
SPEAKER_01
What d you, what d you discover?
4
SPEAKER_00
And so I discovered several things.
4
SPEAKER_00
One was part of that response that your body is going through, your body is telling you things that something is not right.
4
SPEAKER_00
Because I have a great mental game.
4
SPEAKER_00
I can tell myself just about anything, like, no, I m not nervous, I m excited.
4
SPEAKER_00
I am very happy to be here.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m prepared, I m there someday.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I have to have this mindset of calm, cool, and collected when I walk in that door.
4
SPEAKER_00
When I walk through those courtroom doors, I need to look like I ve already won, I just need to show them why.
4
SPEAKER_00
And here, in this mindset, was me saying, actually, your body knows better than you do.
4
SPEAKER_00
You can t out-think this.
4
SPEAKER_00
You got it, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
Can t out-think it.
4
SPEAKER_00
You gotta feel it and move through it.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, there s that book, I can t remember the author, Body Keeps the Score.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, incredible book.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so I ordered that book right away.
4
SPEAKER_01
What did you learn about yourself, your body, your memories of the past that were causing this?
4
SPEAKER_00
There was a sense of... And this is gonna sound weird, but it was a sense of immediate isolation.
4
SPEAKER_00
Okay, I have the million on my phone.
4
SPEAKER_00
Between me and you, it s just a digit from a number on my phone.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s it.
4
SPEAKER_00
No different than if I just press one on a keypad on my calculator on my phone.
4
SPEAKER_00
But that number meant much more significance.
4
SPEAKER_00
And of course, there are a lot of creators that have way more than that.
4
SPEAKER_00
But for somebody who s just been in this car, who doesn t see any of these people, I m in a small town, I m growing law firm, I m just doing all I can.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then all of a sudden, I felt like a lot of eyes were on me, and I had nobody to help.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, there was nobody, I couldn t, if I called my best friend, he d be like, I mean... He doesn t understand.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, he s like, oh, that s a bummer.
4
SPEAKER_00
You know, I just, they couldn t, they couldn t, I could tell, hey, what are you thinking?
4
SPEAKER_00
I don t know.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m glad I reached out to you then.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
Good topic.
4
SPEAKER_00
It really was.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m telling you, I, that s why I thank you immensely because that, that was just to have that, that presence is, um, to know that I, if I need to, I can call or somebody who s kind of been through that, that change.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so now there s probably only four, maybe five people that I can share everything with.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
That will actually not judge me.
4
SPEAKER_01
That will,
4
SPEAKER_01
relate to it in some way that maybe has already had some type of experience like that, that will, you know, have compassion for me, where if I said these things to other people or publicly or whatever it might be, people just won t understand or wouldn t get it.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I m not saying that... Or take it wrong.
4
SPEAKER_01
Or they might take it wrong.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I m not saying that I have, like, some unique experience that s greater or better than others.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s just a different unique experience.
4
SPEAKER_01
Right.
4
SPEAKER_01
from a different position of life and it s not a better worse than good bad it s just a different perspective that s right yeah and it s um
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, there s only a few people that I can really fully just let loose with.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, but that s smart.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, that s biblical.
4
SPEAKER_00
Keep your friends very close and few.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, your true ones, that they re gonna love you no matter what.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I mean, where I can say all this stuff, the messy, the nasty, the... The unfiltered.
4
SPEAKER_01
The unfiltered stuff.
4
SPEAKER_01
The raw, yeah, all of that.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it s...
4
SPEAKER_01
Human beings need that at every stage of life.
4
SPEAKER_01
Whether you re 14 and dealing with stuff in your mind or some weird stuff, or you re 40.
4
SPEAKER_01
We all need those people that we can have those conversations with.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
At every stage, at every level, if you don t have that outlet,
4
SPEAKER_00
your body s going to carry it for you.
4
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
4
SPEAKER_00
Until it can t anymore.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s going to release in some way.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, until it can t.
4
SPEAKER_00
And that s what happened with me was just that feeling of big time isolation.
4
SPEAKER_00
There were more brands.
4
SPEAKER_00
People email you and call you, and you need to go with this.
4
SPEAKER_00
Want something from there.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yes, and oh, we see this, and you ought to do it.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so you re going, wait, man, look, I got to get chicken nuggets in the oven.
4
SPEAKER_00
Right now, you know what I mean?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, can you please yeah, it s right over here.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, like I get home.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s it s mayhem.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s a bad time.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s you know, you just Yeah, there s no There s no team of anything beyond the guy in the car yet, but it was definitely that feeling of
4
SPEAKER_00
I felt like my life was just like starting to just expand in a very surreal way that my body felt despite what my brain was telling it.
4
SPEAKER_01
What did you realize about yourself from those eight days of panic attacks?
4
SPEAKER_01
that you were holding on to, that you were resisting, or that you were not ready for yet?
4
SPEAKER_01
It was a sense of, don t let them down.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like that was a... What, the number?
4
SPEAKER_01
The number of people watching are far away.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, well, because they ll comment, they message, they say incredibly nice, hearts out things.
4
SPEAKER_00
I still get to read them.
4
SPEAKER_00
And they re just the kindest, kindest things that you go, I do not deserve to read what I just saw.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, you just feel like an immediate sense of, uh, humility and like an imposter or something.
4
SPEAKER_00
And not so much the imposter of a, don t let these people down because they really do depend on that advice for whatever reason.
4
SPEAKER_01
That daily message you give them.
4
SPEAKER_00
They ve chosen the guy in the car, in the driver s seat, they wanna hear what his thoughts are on X, Y, and Z, which I love.
4
SPEAKER_00
I truly do love it.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I hope I do it for the rest of my life.
4
SPEAKER_00
But it is in that moment, in the very first beginning of,
5
SPEAKER_01
Me saying, okay, this is happening.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like this is, I guess this is happening.
5
SPEAKER_01
That was a immediate sense of settling into that expectation.
5
SPEAKER_01
I also learned that I was getting a bad habit of holding my breath.
5
SPEAKER_01
when I was working or doing things.
5
SPEAKER_00
She wasn t breathing, so your body was like... Yeah, and so I was... I know that feeling now.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so I was reading, and that part of that panic attack is the same sensation you get when your body s drowning.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s because I m holding my breath, priving myself of oxygen, and my body is, like, kicking in.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you got it.
5
SPEAKER_01
It needs more oxygen.
5
SPEAKER_01
You got it.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so, without me just thinking in the day,
5
SPEAKER_01
I was catching myself more and more holding my breath.
5
SPEAKER_01
Or shallow breathing, or barely breathing.
5
SPEAKER_01
Of course I m alive, but it s like I m holding it more than I m letting it out, and I m not fully utilizing my body, which tells me that there is that tension, that tightness.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so once I realized that I was holding my breath, that s what taught me of, like, okay, let s fix that.
5
SPEAKER_01
Because once I started fixing that, much, much, much better.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
There s something I ve learned over the years about, and I m curious how you approach this.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I don t always get it right, and it doesn t always work for me, but a psychological strategy.
5
SPEAKER_00
When someone is...
5
SPEAKER_00
quote, unquote, attacking me or saying nasty things about me that I don t believe are true.
5
SPEAKER_00
Or maybe it s just, I don t like the way they re saying it and I don t want it to penetrate my heart and my soul and be reactive and defensive and frustrated and all these things.
5
SPEAKER_01
When the brow goes like this.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
5
SPEAKER_00
One of the psychological or therapeutic strategies that I ve learned is to imagine either a field, an energetic field around me,
5
SPEAKER_00
that I can see it, but then it bounces off.
5
SPEAKER_00
The words, the intention, the energy, it comes and then, boink, it just goes around me and like water off a duck.
5
SPEAKER_00
I feel like there s a Star Wars reference, but yes, that s exactly right.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Or what I ll do is I will separate the ego from the self.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I ll have the ego over here next to me, psychologically, and an image of it, the ego of me here.
5
SPEAKER_00
I ll just say, oh, they re just speaking to the ego.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and there s attachment.
5
SPEAKER_00
They re just, oh, they re speaking over here.
5
SPEAKER_00
They re not actually speaking to me.
5
SPEAKER_00
They might be looking at me, but it s just redirecting right here.
5
SPEAKER_00
And, oh, this doesn t affect me.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, they re talking to that guy.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I saw, I think it was Selma Hayek one time talk about this.
5
SPEAKER_00
She was giving examples somewhere, a line about how, you know, if someone spoke to you really poorly in Spanish and you don t speak Spanish, you re not going to get defensive.
5
SPEAKER_00
Right.
5
SPEAKER_00
You re just going to be like, well, okay, I have no clue what this crazy person is saying to me.
5
SPEAKER_00
Um, okay.
5
SPEAKER_00
So just act like it s a different language.
5
SPEAKER_00
Right.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s different ways of like separating yourself from the hurt or the potential pain.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
5
SPEAKER_00
What have you learned?
5
SPEAKER_00
to support yourself psychologically and emotionally and spiritually.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
When this feeling of panic, stress comes your way, or when potential attacks come your way emotionally.
5
SPEAKER_01
So, very similar to yours, I, in my mind, I visually have a trash can.
5
SPEAKER_00
Oh, okay.
5
SPEAKER_01
All right.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I can see it.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s one of those big, huge gallon ones.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s the black.
5
SPEAKER_01
Sure.
5
SPEAKER_01
Shiny.
5
SPEAKER_01
We ll put it out there.
5
SPEAKER_00
You got it.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I see what they re saying is just a shoot.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I can see the words coming and I m sifting because the issue they re telling me is not the real issue.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so, if I hear something that s offensive, that s not nice, I just, okay, that s trash.
5
SPEAKER_01
In my mind, I grab it with my right hand, lift up, and throw it.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like, that s what I ll do with my thoughts.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I m sifting to where if they might ve led with something that was snarky, which our inclination is to grab onto that and send it back to them.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, send it back and be like, oh, I got a good one.
5
SPEAKER_01
Instead, yeah, you got it.
5
SPEAKER_01
Instead, if I throw that word away, if I just trash it, and then I found the one word that they said at the very end, towards the end, that was, that was the one word.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then if I focus on that word, then it all starts to kind of crumble.
5
SPEAKER_01
But that s, I just imagine a trash can.
5
SPEAKER_00
Wow, it s interesting.
5
SPEAKER_00
Now, how do you not,
5
SPEAKER_00
How do you communicate your worth when someone is being offensive or adding a little digs underneath their language?
5
SPEAKER_00
Maybe they re trying to get a message across, um, and they re frustrated.
5
SPEAKER_00
So they re saying a few things that would be offensive to you potentially, or maybe hurt you or maybe kind of put you beneath.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
How do you,
5
SPEAKER_00
create a boundary consciously with them so that they don t keep doing that in the future where it s letting them know, Hey, this, this type of communication doesn t really work for me.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s not okay.
5
SPEAKER_00
And owning your worth while also being able to throw it away.
5
SPEAKER_00
at the same time and not let it get to you.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like, how do you navigate that so that that doesn t continue to happen in friendships or in relationships or in career where that doesn t continue?
5
SPEAKER_00
Like, I understand we can do it once or twice or three times, but if someone s always doing that to us, how do we create that boundary and cautiously communicate our worth?
5
SPEAKER_01
depending on the context of who that person is, you know, who they are in your life.
5
SPEAKER_01
So some people you just can t get away from, I mean, or family members, what have you, but it s a balance of your value.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then what we re going to just call as what I m interested in.
5
SPEAKER_01
So somebody, we re going to say something that s offensive in a way, and they are pushing me.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s a much more powerful move, a very dominant, assertive move to say, I m not interested in returning what you just gave.
5
SPEAKER_01
Oh, wow.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s a, it s a power move.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
Oh yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
And see, it s, so if I say Jefferson, you know,
5
SPEAKER_00
It was pretty idiotic what you did the other day to me.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I just didn t, you know.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
You just looked like an idiot.
5
SPEAKER_00
But what I really want to do is, moving forward, I want us to go and do this thing instead.
5
SPEAKER_00
Right.
5
SPEAKER_00
Or whatever.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m just saying something.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I m with you.
5
SPEAKER_00
How would you respond to something like that?
5
SPEAKER_01
So if somebody, well, what you kind of did was you hit it into something else that they did.
5
SPEAKER_01
So what I would first do is call that out.
5
SPEAKER_01
I hear two points.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and so I m like, I m not going to skip that.
5
SPEAKER_00
So you want to just throw the trash away right away.
5
SPEAKER_00
You got it.
5
SPEAKER_00
You want to address it.
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, because they re trying to hide the trash in the good.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so my response is, well, I see two different things.
5
SPEAKER_01
So that first point, I don t have an interest in responding to whatever, or I m going to say, well, maybe I did look like an idiot, but I m not going to be holding on to whatever message you re trying to send to me.
5
SPEAKER_01
But it s a much more dominant move to say, I have no interest in returning what you re sending.
5
SPEAKER_01
Right.
5
SPEAKER_00
I have no interest in calling you what I saw yesterday you do.
5
SPEAKER_00
Or something like that.
5
SPEAKER_01
You got it.
5
SPEAKER_01
But if you use the phrase, I have no interest.
5
SPEAKER_01
I have no interest in talking about your opinion of my performance.
5
SPEAKER_00
Oh, interesting.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know what I mean?
5
SPEAKER_01
Obviously, that s not something you wanna start off with, because that could sound defensive, that could sound issues, but the point of it is, when you say, I have no interest, you re saying that as you re doing the trash can thing, I really don t have an interest.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, this kind of food, it s not great for me.
5
SPEAKER_01
It doesn t really settle well with me.
5
SPEAKER_01
But what does taste good is what you said, you know, about X, Y, and Z. And so you kind of imagine those words as part of, let s say it s kind of, you know, your diet.
5
SPEAKER_01
Sorry, I m a little lactose intolerant.
5
SPEAKER_01
Right.
5
SPEAKER_01
So let s skip the milk and talk about something else.
5
SPEAKER_00
What are the three power moves in conversations that really set you up for success in any conversation?
5
SPEAKER_01
Number one is silence, just nothing.
5
SPEAKER_01
So if somebody were to say something that s snarky, the best move is to say nothing.
5
SPEAKER_01
You just kind of sit back and you look around, you look up, you look off.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m telling you nine times out of 10, they can t take it.
5
SPEAKER_01
Really?
5
SPEAKER_01
They can t take that silence because then it s spread out.
5
SPEAKER_01
You ve just exposed.
5
SPEAKER_01
Instead of you covering it up with something else that says, excuse me, what did you say?
5
SPEAKER_01
You re just leaving it open.
5
SPEAKER_01
I really wish that the best foot you re gonna put out right now, that one, we re gonna choose.
6
SPEAKER_01
And if you just let that silence sit there, oftentimes, and you ve probably heard this, they go, I shouldn t have said that.
6
SPEAKER_01
You gotta give them that chance.
6
SPEAKER_01
That s number one.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, number one is you gotta give them the chance of that silence.
6
SPEAKER_01
Number two, acknowledge that it could be without acknowledging that it is.
6
SPEAKER_01
And you see an example of saying, well, maybe so, maybe you re right.
6
SPEAKER_01
and I say you re right, but maybe you are.
6
SPEAKER_01
Maybe you re right.
6
SPEAKER_01
But it s that piece of humility that says, yeah, well, maybe you re right.
6
SPEAKER_01
I had a guy once who said I was deposing him and all you lawyers, worst things that ever happened to America come and talk and I said, well, maybe you re right.
6
SPEAKER_01
Maybe you re right, but today s just gonna be a conversation between us.
6
SPEAKER_01
Is it okay if you re just talking to Jefferson? 
6
SPEAKER_01
And he said, yeah, I can do that.
6
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so it s that ability to just say, well, maybe so, but I could have gotten really defensive with him.
6
SPEAKER_01
I could have chosen to taken that personally instead, I just dropped it.
6
SPEAKER_01
The other power move is to hold off on the timing.
6
SPEAKER_01
So when you are mad, that s generally not the best time to do it.
6
SPEAKER_01
When, like when, when, you know, you ve done something wrong and you want somebody to be mad at you, they re like, fight me, please.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like, I know I ve done something wrong.
6
SPEAKER_01
Let s, let s have this out.
6
SPEAKER_01
We ll talk about this.
6
SPEAKER_01
You want to talk about this at noon?
6
SPEAKER_00
Right.
6
SPEAKER_00
Let s talk about it.
6
SPEAKER_00
Let s put it in the calendar for tomorrow.
6
SPEAKER_00
You got it.
6
SPEAKER_01
Let s, oh, oh, well I m,
6
SPEAKER_01
Okay, I m glad you said that.
6
SPEAKER_01
Well then, you know, I don t really have my thoughts together on that, but why don t we kind of wanted to talk about that at noon tomorrow?
6
SPEAKER_01
What do you think?
6
SPEAKER_01
Now they re like, oh my God, like I just said something that I shouldn t have said.
6
SPEAKER_01
But that s a much better way of handling it.
6
SPEAKER_01
Because at that point, you have not lost any confidence.
6
SPEAKER_01
You have not lost your credibility.
6
SPEAKER_01
And you ve maintained that you re the one in control at all times.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I m telling you, the key is just starting with your breath and choosing to be quiet.
6
SPEAKER_01
If you were to say something to me and I responded right away, like if you were to say, I don t know, do you enjoy matcha tea?
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And I go, no.
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Versus me thinking, no.
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Like there s just a different connotation to it when you think about it.
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Yeah.
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About 14 years ago,
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someone gave me a line that became one of the most powerful uses of language over the last 14 years to help me get almost anything I want or more of what I already have.
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And I use it all the time.
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When I go order a coffee, I use it.
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When I go to a hotel and try to get an upgrade, I use it.
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When I m working with partners and collaborators, I use it.
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And the line is, what s the chance?
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What s the chance you can give me a discount on this?
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What s the chance you can give me an upgrade in this hotel room?
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What s the chance you can get me in first class?
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What s the chance we can collaborate in a bigger way?
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What s the chance you can go a little more on this?
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And
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I ve used that over and over again because it continues to work.
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And I almost use it as a game daily.
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Like any store I go into, I m just like, what s the chance you got 10% off on this?
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Just to see if you can make something happen.
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Because if you don t ask, you re not going to get it.
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And, um, it s just like a way to be playful.
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It s a way to like, see, can I enroll someone in something that I, maybe I shouldn t be getting, but I m going to get.
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Yes.
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And it often works where the unexpected happens.
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Is there another line of communication that you use, maybe even unknowingly that you use consistently that seems to just help you enroll people in more of what you want?
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So I do, I absolutely use the, what s the chance?
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Really?
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Yeah.
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So I ll use that when it feels like a circus, like a stalemate between the other attorney and look, what s the chance that your client s going to be able to do X, Y, and Z.
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Also, I will try to separate the attorney from the client.
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Same way I do with like the reception clerk versus the hotel.
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I make sure that I acknowledge them as the person, because I acknowledge their struggle of what they re going through.
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And so if I talk to the attorney of, look, I can only imagine all the updates you re having to do or all the work you re putting through, I know that this is how you re doing the best thing you can for your client.
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I mean, between me and you, what s the chance that we can do X, Y, and Z?
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Or if I were to do, or if I were to say, or if my client were, if I were to encourage my client to do this, is that something that I should do?
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And it gives them something to think about.
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The same way like at a, let s say at a hotel or something like that, I can only imagine you just been, how long s your shift?
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Yeah, seven hours.
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And I m like, gosh, yeah, that s going to be.
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And so you just, yeah, you kind of create that connection with them that says, I m talking to you individually as a person rather than seeing you as the whole then, because that s who they are.
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Yeah, exactly.
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That s powerful.
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I want to go back to the, uh, the panic attacks for a moment.
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Um, does it sound like you, you really studied and research a lot on how you could manage and, and, and have a better relationship with the anxiety or the stress that you were having for those eight days?
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Have you had more panic attacks since the moment?
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They ve gotten less and less and less.
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Less and less.
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Maybe like five, 10 minutes at a time or something.
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Yeah.
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So, uh, well, I haven t had, I probably haven t had a panic attack.
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I ve gotten very close probably in the last like three weeks, but what it is, is like a sense of boiling water.
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Like I can feel the water boiling and then I have my, and I can feel it in my body.
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Like I can feel it in my fingers.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Or I m typically never somebody to shake my leg.
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But if all of a sudden my leg is shaking, then I m like, okay, something s up.
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And that ll tell me right away of, all right, what are we doing?
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What s going on?
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Be able to kind of check in with myself and how that s been, but it s progressed.
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Much better.
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Yeah, it really has.
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Therapy helps.
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And that was really the source, was not feeling alone in this kind of ecosystem that I didn t ask for.
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Like, this was never my goal, of like, if I can only get so many followers.
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Yeah, it was like, let s just go.
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I don t know, I got a few minutes, like, to talk to my phone.
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Yeah.
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What has the relationship been like with your wife and your kids since experiencing the rise of your audience, but also the stress and panic that you ve experienced over the last six months?
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How has your wife shown up for you?
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And how has it made you relate to your family differently?
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Well, having kids has made me much more just empathetic as a person.
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And I ll tell you that it is a way that we relate to each other is when I see them start to get really emotional, I can see myself in it.
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My son looks a lot like me.
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And so I can, it s very much this kind of weird inner child-like dialogue.
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Like I m telling him things that I wish I could have, I would have been told.
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at, you know, hey man, it s okay to cry.
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Wow.
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Just let it out, let it out.
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I was never told that, but I m not gonna make that mistake.
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And so my son is extremely waterworks all the time and I love it.
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I mean, he s emotional in movies.
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I love it.
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And so to see that where I go, no, no, no,
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I ve had that mistake of trying to put on this, Jefferson s got it all together.
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This mask.
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Yeah, yeah, this, I got it all together.
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It s, you are, just let it out, man.
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It s all good, it s all good.
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And he will, he ll just cry and say, I can t help it.
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And I ll say, you don t need to.
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You re good, man.
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You re good.
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He s very, both of my kids are extremely empathetic with movies.
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I shared something before,
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of, this was like not that long ago, and my son says, how your day was, Dad?
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It was good, buddy, it was good.
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And he was like, what d you do?
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I was like, well, it was just good, it was a good day, it was fine.
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Truthfully, it was not good.
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It was a really horrible, it was a rough day.
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It was a rough day, I was tired.
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And later on that evening, he came up to me again and he said, so why d you tell me your day was good when it wasn t?
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I said, what?
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He said, you said it was good, but you didn t say it like it was good.
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I was like, how did you know?
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He s like, you said it like it wasn t good.
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You said it like it was bad.
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They feel everything.
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Yes, and I was like, how are you this young?
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And like, he had already sensed it.
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He told me he was good, he wasn t.
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Wow.
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And so that kind of aspect of it, when you say, how s my wife showing up for me?
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She s allowed me to have the time to kind of explore, hey, you need to make sure you re taking care of yourself.
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And she s awesome at supporting anything that I m after and we support both of our careers.
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She has a full-time career as her doing her thing in school and school law.
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And I have my legal career.
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And in terms of the social media stuff, it doesn t affect anything.
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Like you could call it Finstagram.
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Like nobody at my house, it doesn t exist at my house.
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It s just your dad, mom, kids, man.
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That s all it is.
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Now she s very supportive of it.
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And they know that every once in a while dad will make a video.
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So because they wanna make videos.
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I m curious, with your upbringing, which sounds like you had a great upbringing, but also things that maybe you wish you would have had or experienced in certain ways from parents or life, and with what you re experiencing now, from, you know, building your career, getting married at a young age, in today s society, and now having this kind of following and presence, what are three lessons, if you could only teach three lessons to your kids,
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right now, what would those three lessons be that you wish you would have known growing up or that you did know and you want them to know?
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One would be always be authentic to who you are personally.
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Don t ever try to be anybody else than who you are.
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I can tell you that anytime I felt like I ve needed to be somebody else, it was the wrong call.
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Every time that I tried to be either more or less than just exactly who I am.
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I see it as just a floor in an elevator.
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It doesn t mean it s a better floor or not.
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It s just, you need to be exactly where you re meant to be.
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Two is it s okay to feel like there are, it s okay to make mistakes.
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I grew up in a house where it was very,
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There s a lot of, I ll admit, let s put it on myself, expectations of... being the best at everything you can be at whatever it was.
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I just enjoyed it.
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And... but the understanding that they don t have to put that pressure... on themselves.
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And number three is be kind to everybody.
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Kindness never...
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It never changes.
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People value it now.
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They always have.
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We could talk for hours, man, but I want to wrap things up here in a few minutes.
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Jefferson underscore Fisher on Instagram.
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Yeah.
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All over social media, you can find you.
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I ll have everything linked up there.
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Oh, cool.
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Thanks.
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You ve got a book you re working on that we ll probably have you back on in the future when that comes out.
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But I want people to follow you on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, all the places.
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Hopefully we ll get you on YouTube soon.
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Yeah.
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And, um, you do a daily video, man.
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Your video, I mean, almost every day, it seems like it s like every day you re given wisdom.
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You re given inspiration from daily lessons and.
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law and your experience in life.
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And it s really inspiring to see you create from a place of generosity, from a place of service.
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So I want to acknowledge you for the consistency.
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And I also want to acknowledge you for opening up about the panics that you ve expressed and being vulnerable with your community and saying, Hey, listen, guys, this is something I ve never experienced.
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And
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You know, I love having this community, but also I feel this sense of pressure and this overwhelm that I ve never experienced in my life.
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And I think it s powerful to be talking about it because what we keep hidden and we hide continues to manifest and hurt us and stress us.
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So the fact that you re talking about it is probably allowing you to release some and relax some.
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I m not saying it s gonna solve every issue you have mentally or emotionally, but it s allowing you
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to set yourself free.
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So, I acknowledge you for not having it all put together, not saying the perfect thing every time, and allowing yourself to express how you feel, which sounds like is what your body needs.
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Yeah.
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Thank you very much.
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That s very well put.
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I acknowledge you, man, for doing the work and for continually doing it because healing is a journey.
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And so, I m glad you re on that journey and feel free to reach out anytime you want some support or just a chat.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Absolutely, no, it s meant so much that you ve been here.
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That means a lot to me.
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For sure, man.
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This is a question I ask everyone towards the end called the three truths.
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So imagine you get to live as long as you want, but it s your last day on Earth.
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You get to accomplish all the dreams and experiences you want to have.
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But for whatever reason, all of your material, your content, your videos, the books you make, all these things, they have to go to the next place with you, where they re no longer in this world.
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This conversation is gone.
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But it s your last day on earth and you get to leave behind three truths, three lessons you would share with the world.
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And this is all we have to remember your wisdom by.
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What would be those three truths or lessons for you?
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Number one is the best piece of advice I received from my grandfather, who was an old East Texas attorney.
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He said, boy, you can t look back and plan a straight row.
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That s always stuck with me.
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meaning encouraging people to be in the moment, in the present.
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If you look at what you re doing rather than looking for the next worry, your head s always gonna be in the right place.
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Number two is you treat people however you wanna be treated.
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Just that very basic golden rule that we ve all heard, but sometimes it s the things we ve heard the most that we really have soaked up the least.
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And too many times the,
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I ve you know, we skip over it and number three would be that at any time that you can Show person kindness because you you ll never regret it There s so many things that I feel like generation generationally in our existence that we just
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got wrong, it wasn t our fault, we just weren t ready.
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We thought medicine was something different versus what we think medicine is now, or you look at how we handle punishment or entertainment versus now, but kindness is, it s not affected from inflation or recession, it doesn t depreciate.
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A little kindness can be invaluable.
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I love it, it was a great truce, man.
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Final question, Jefferson, what s your definition of greatness?
7
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Greatness is being able to show up for who you are in every level and every stage that you re meant to be in a way that spreads joy to everybody that you touch.
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I hope today s episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness.
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Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today s show with all the important links.
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And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel on apple podcast.
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If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend, leave us a review over on Apple podcast, and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis Howes.
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I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better.
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And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness Newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com slash newsletter.
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And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.
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And now it s time to go out there and do something great.