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This is the story of how a group of people brought music back to Afghanistan by creating their own version of American Idol.
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The joy they brought to the nation.
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You re free completely.
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No one is there to destroy you.
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SPEAKER_05
The danger they endured.
0
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They said my head should be cut off.
0
SPEAKER_05
I m John Legend.
0
SPEAKER_05
Listen to Afghan Star on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
0
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A new season of Bridgerton is here.
0
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And with it, a new season of Bridgerton, the official podcast.
0
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I m your host, Gabby Collins.
0
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And this season, we are bringing fans even deeper into the ton.
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Watch season three of the Shondaland series on Netflix.
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Then fall in love all over again by listening to Bridgerton, the official podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Subscribe to catch a new episode every Thursday.
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Hey everyone, this is Molly and Matt, and we re the hosts of Grown Up Stuff How to Adult, a podcast from Ruby Studio and iHeart Podcasts.
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It s a show dedicated to helping you figure out the trickiest parts of adulting.
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Like how to start planning for retirement, creating a healthy skincare routine, understanding when and how much to tip someone, and so much more.
0
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Let s learn about all of it, and then some.
0
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Listen to Grown Up Stuff How to Adult on America s number one podcast network, iHeart.
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Open your free iHeart app and search Grown Up Stuff.
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To be honest, so much of it is just about not feeling like s*** on set.
0
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And in my trailer, when I m alone, wanting to tear my skin off.
0
SPEAKER_00
So the future, I think I couldn t see it because I didn t know how much longer I d last feeling that way in my day-to-day life.
0
SPEAKER_00
Everyone s sort of go-to was, your dream s coming true, your dream s coming true, your dream s coming true.
0
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Kate Winslet said to me, don t let them change you.
0
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Before we jump into this episode, I d like to invite you to join this community to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed.
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All I want you to do is click on the subscribe button.
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It s incredible to see all your comments, and we re just getting started.
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I can t wait to go on this journey with you.
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Thank you so much for subscribing.
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It means the world to me.
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The best-selling author and host.
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The number one health and wellness podcast.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty.
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SPEAKER_01
Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose.
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I m so excited because I get to sit down with Elliot Page.
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Elliot Page is an Academy Award-nominated actor, director, producer, writer, and a New York Times best-selling author known for his indelible on-screen presence in both tentpole and arthouse films.
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SPEAKER_01
Elliot uses his global platform to shed light on important social and LGBTQ plus issues.
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Up next, Elliot will star in Close to You, which will have its world premiere at the 2023 Toronto International Film Festival.
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Elliot s critically acclaimed debut book, a memoir entitled Pageboy, was published around the world in June 2023.
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The book became an instant bestseller, number one atop the New York Times bestseller list, and receiving widespread positive reviews.
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With Elliott s production company, Pageboy Productions, Elliott develops and produces entertaining, original, and socially responsible stories.
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Elliott, welcome to On Purpose.
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SPEAKER_01
Thank you so much.
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SPEAKER_01
Thank you so much for making the time, for being here.
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SPEAKER_01
I know you re in LA only for a few days, and I m grateful that I get to steal some of that time.
0
SPEAKER_01
Thank you for having me here.
0
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Yeah, today we re talking about your incredible new memoir.
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For anyone who hasn t already read this book, I highly recommend that you go and grab it.
0
SPEAKER_01
We re going to put a link in the caption so that you can order it right now.
0
SPEAKER_01
Pageboy.
0
SPEAKER_01
Please make sure that you go and grab a copy if you re enjoying this conversation.
0
SPEAKER_01
Elliot, when I was reading through the book, I was
0
SPEAKER_01
truly just, first of all, I just felt very grateful that someone s letting us in on such an intimate part of their life and doing it in such a graceful and thoughtful way.
0
SPEAKER_01
And even the structure of the book too, I was just like, oh, this is like easing me in in a way that I wouldn t expect to from a memoir usually.
0
SPEAKER_01
and you chose this non-linear approach consciously and intentionally.
0
SPEAKER_01
Could you explain why you felt that that was the right way to share your story?
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I mean, for me, the non-linearity of it is a reflection on some level of, speaking for myself, the trans and queer experience and how that journey weaves, how we get close to our truth, potentially pull back, maybe know ourselves very, very deeply before we ve been
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inundated with, you know, society and its expectations that are often toxic and limiting.
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And, you know, so for me in regards to exploration of memory and of
0
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those moments in my life where I did feel close and then would pull back potentially because I was frightened, overwhelmed, or what have you.
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So I guess also personally, I enjoy when books are non-linear, you know, wherein different themes and topics and history and emotion and what have you can
0
SPEAKER_00
uh all sort of collide so that s just inherently i guess exciting to me and also yeah i think it reflects the sort of queer trans journey on some level i love the phrase you just used the exploration of memory
0
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I don t know, my mind just latched onto it.
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And I thought, wow, that s a really interesting way of putting it.
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I think our memory so often is a beautiful thing.
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It so often fails us.
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It s so often skewed.
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What was it like for you going down memory lane?
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And when you said exploration of memory, what did you discover or explore about memory when you re putting together a memoir?
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I feel like there must be something in there.
0
SPEAKER_00
For me, so many of,
0
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you know, the stories or the moments that I chose are ones that have just always been vibrating right under the surface.
0
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And found the act of writing it in many ways was
0
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quite organic.
0
SPEAKER_00
It was sort of, I sit down, think of a period, think of a relationship that could potentially sort of speak to many things during that time, or a friendship, or an incident, or what have you, and then sort of mold around that.
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And for me, so much of what came up was the stuff that
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was kind of always running around my brain.
0
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So some of my earliest memories when I was, you know, in preschool to obviously then all over the place throughout.
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So I think a lot of the instances and feelings were quite sort of readily available and tangible.
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SPEAKER_00
For me, the experience was
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I don t know if this comes from like acting or having so much of my life being a part of telling stories where it was as if I could sort of picture the moment and feel the moment and it was as if I was just describing this movie I was watching or something.
0
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Do you find, I m always fascinated by this, especially with people who are in filmmaking, do you find that when you re looking at a memory, you re seeing yourself move or are you kind of the person doing the moving?
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Does that make sense?
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it does.
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I think probably both, the combination of the two.
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Probably also a conscious removal on some level to be able to give a texture and description that hopefully will pull the reader into it.
0
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Absolutely.
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I always find that all my memories, which it took me a long time to realize this, all my memories that are based on pictures,
0
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are ones where I m seeing myself as opposed to memories that I actually have from my mind.
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If that makes sense.
0
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Like whenever I see a picture of me and my family, then I m like, oh, actually I don t have a memory of that.
0
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I just have a picture that sparked something.
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For you, was there a memory that was more of a discovery or a memory that was like, oh, I didn t, I forgot that that happened.
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SPEAKER_01
Or I maybe didn t pay enough attention to that when it happened.
0
SPEAKER_01
Was there anything that came up that way or was it more just things that were already there?
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SPEAKER_00
I wouldn t say anything sort of necessarily sparked or emerged out of nowhere.
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That was a surprise.
0
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But I think on some level, and this made the experience of writing it, of course, intense in moments, but ultimately really healing and cathartic.
0
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I think there was a lot of memories that I had just so swept under the rug, where you become so conditioned to let certain things go, certain behaviors.
1
SPEAKER_02
you re coming at you go, that even sitting here right now, I can kind of feel it in my body to register how much certain things really did affect me and my life and my physical wellbeing and my emotional wellbeing and what have you.
1
SPEAKER_02
So it was almost more like there was like a therapeutic element to it on some level, but sitting with the reality of some things that I think was actually really important.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, thank you for doing it here and, and here in both places, because I, I, I can only imagine how much courage it takes to do that.
1
SPEAKER_00
So, so thank you for even experiencing, even now, as you were saying, you can feel it in your body and I can see that it s okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
I can only imagine how much courage that takes.
1
SPEAKER_00
So thank you.
1
SPEAKER_00
Thank you for going there for us.
1
SPEAKER_00
How does it feel to finally be living the way you ve always wanted to and being perceived in the way you ve always perceived yourself?
1
SPEAKER_00
It s like,
1
SPEAKER_01
getting to feel a way that I never thought was possible.
1
SPEAKER_02
Like when I would just think about my future and how I was going to feel and I had a very difficult time seeing it.
1
SPEAKER_02
Even this morning I saw a friend and I don t see him as much because he lives here and he s just like this like lightness in you.
1
SPEAKER_02
He s just like, oh my gosh, it s,
1
SPEAKER_02
such an amazing thing to see.
1
SPEAKER_02
And this is someone who s been in my life since I was, you know, first really in Los Angeles at the age of about 20, like consistently is when we first met initially.
1
SPEAKER_02
So it s, uh, yeah, it s getting to exist in a way that I never thought possible.
1
SPEAKER_02
It doesn t mean I m not human who doesn t have difficult days or, you know, sparks of anxiety naturally.
1
SPEAKER_02
Um, but it s, um,
1
SPEAKER_02
A complete game changer, just getting to feel, being able to do this, this would have been impossible before.
1
SPEAKER_02
Impossible.
1
SPEAKER_02
I could have never.
1
SPEAKER_02
Simply the action of sitting down for the length that it takes to have space in my mind freed from everything else that was occupying it.
1
SPEAKER_02
to feel the sort of surge of creativity and feelings of just being inspired and waking up and being able to actually sit down with myself and do something like this.
1
SPEAKER_02
Impossible before.
1
SPEAKER_02
Impossible.
1
SPEAKER_00
What would your thoughts about the future have been then that you think
1
SPEAKER_00
made it feel so impossible?
1
SPEAKER_00
As you said, you used to think about the future and it could never have felt as good as it does today, despite there being natural human challenges, obviously.
1
SPEAKER_00
But yeah, what would that picture of the future would have been?
1
SPEAKER_01
I think the way, like the way to explain it is almost like,
1
SPEAKER_02
It s almost as if your days, I just do feel like for very significant periods of my life, I struggled to function on a pretty basic level.
1
SPEAKER_02
You know, it was hard for me to just literally sit down.
1
SPEAKER_02
It was hard for me to be productive.
1
SPEAKER_02
It was hard for me to be present at all.
1
SPEAKER_02
And so the future, I think I couldn t see it because I didn t know how much longer I d last feeling that way in my day-to-day life.
1
SPEAKER_00
How does it feel now reconnecting with acting, being who you ve always been and being perceived in that way?
1
SPEAKER_00
Like what is acting like now?
1
SPEAKER_00
Has your relation with acting changed?
1
SPEAKER_00
Is it better?
1
SPEAKER_00
Is it more?
1
SPEAKER_00
So much better.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I mean literally everything in my life is better now because of how I get to feel and feeling embodied and present and you know, all these things really for,
1
SPEAKER_02
the first time.
1
SPEAKER_02
Because this is the other thing I have people say to me or I d say to myself, like, you re an actor, just put on the clothes, flip the switch, play the game, you know, whatever.
1
SPEAKER_02
but I wasn t starting from this foundational place myself.
1
SPEAKER_02
And as much as acting is about inhabiting, you know, another personality or, you know, whatever manifestations of a character, what have you,
1
SPEAKER_02
you re always bringing yourself to a role, right?
1
SPEAKER_02
It s so much about connecting to a character, to a story, to motivation, to emotion, to trauma, to whatever, to the joy, to what have you, and developing your connection with that, and then molding something on that.
1
SPEAKER_02
So I used to be so profoundly uncomfortable, and I feel like I see that in work.
1
SPEAKER_02
like inability to sort of, I almost think of the word loose, like, and now there s like this like looseness, there s this ability to just like exist every day on set, be in my body, and that s the starting point.
1
SPEAKER_02
I m not having to like fight through something to get to the starting point.
1
SPEAKER_02
You know, I know people approach the work differently, but to me, it s about being as present and open as absolutely possible with all the,
1
SPEAKER_02
you know, information you ve gathered about how you want to, you know, play this role or approach it.
1
SPEAKER_02
So it s allowing for that.
1
SPEAKER_02
And it s feeling like how acting felt in the moments when I was the most inspired, which usually were roles that somewhat I could almost handle, you know, I could handle the, you know, there d still be some discomfort, but it was at least somewhat closer to who I was, which again, sounds counterintuitive to acting, but,
1
SPEAKER_02
To me, the presence of it is what makes it possible and the most powerful.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s, it s hard to, even though something s an art and then there s humans, it s hard to separate the two.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like it s, it s hard to just say, oh, well, that s an art.
1
SPEAKER_00
You turn it on and off like a switch.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then, then there s your life.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think we all know that regardless of our disposition or setup, the two intertwine anyway.
1
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know?
1
SPEAKER_00
And so what parts of the art do you feel have drastically improved for you now?
1
SPEAKER_00
Like that you just feel more connected to, or as you said, I love the words open and present too.
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean, to be honest, so much of it is just about not feeling like on set and in my trailer when I m alone and wanting to tear my skin off.
1
SPEAKER_02
I don t know, whatever the sort of physical ways that I would feel.
1
SPEAKER_02
And like, I can remember, I d call my, you know, manager on films and just be like, I m, I m not okay.
1
SPEAKER_02
Like I, and not necessarily having the words or having them, but not,
1
SPEAKER_02
not being able to fully follow through with the thought, I guess.
1
SPEAKER_02
So, so much of it actually is, like, to be honest, if someone had told me, oh, you come out as trans and you ll never work as an actor again, I would have been like, cool.
1
SPEAKER_02
Like, all right, I d way rather live my life and be myself and engage with the world as myself and feel embodied and not feel like I don t know how to get through the day, not interested.
1
SPEAKER_02
So for me, I m mostly like, okay, cool that the, you know, if I keep, if I do get cast, the fallout does seem to be this very positive aspect of feeling so much more grounded and present that I think I will, it s going to make performances better.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
And if it doesn t,
1
SPEAKER_02
doesn t, I don t really care.
1
SPEAKER_02
That s not what life s about for me.
1
SPEAKER_02
I ve been in movies that have done well and movies that have not done well and you re still where you are and living your life.
1
SPEAKER_02
And like, I m good.
1
SPEAKER_00
I love that.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, that, that is, I love you said that s what life s about.
1
SPEAKER_00
And, and I think it s so true, like for all of us in our own ways, wanting to feel,
1
SPEAKER_00
that we can truly be who we are and be seen for who we are and be accepted for who we are is kind of what all of us on our journey are pursuing and seeking.
1
SPEAKER_00
And when you say, and it sounds like to me, and I m trying to deeply understand this as well, it s like when you say in the book, you talk about how you re like, I knew when I was four years old, and it s like that knowingness, and then you use the language of like, you know, tearing off your own skin, like that idea to me feels like when there s such a strong knowingness inside,
1
SPEAKER_00
knowing is different to feeling.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it sounds like when I was reading, I was like, there was just knowingness.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I was intrigued as to, is that the right language?
1
SPEAKER_00
Do you agree with that?
1
SPEAKER_00
And what is the difference for you between knowing and feeling?
1
SPEAKER_00
Because I think knowing is so much more of this like visceral, deep, grounded, rooting feeling.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I suppose they re probably both.
1
SPEAKER_02
obviously interrelated to a degree and connect.
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I think at those, which are some of my earliest memories, like these moments that were just always like right under the surface was so much of how I felt at that age and who I knew myself to be and how perplexed I was at how the world was seeing me.
1
SPEAKER_02
And then
2
SPEAKER_00
And when I was about 10, sort of like kind of like pushing my mother to the degree that I was like really actually getting to present how I wanted and like remembering just how good that felt and the solidness and this way I could exist in the world without the similar feelings that I had as a full-blown adult of wanting to rip my skin off that I was feeling at really young ages.
2
SPEAKER_00
not obviously having the words for, but in some ways you re like, no, wait, I did have the words for them.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was going, this is who I am and want to be.
2
SPEAKER_00
And these are the things that I want to wear and how I want to look and present.
2
SPEAKER_00
And you had people going, you know, no, I m sorry.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know.
2
SPEAKER_00
So in some ways you re like, wait, no, I did have the words.
2
SPEAKER_00
And also, I guess I did to a degree in my twenties and same thing.
2
SPEAKER_00
People were going, no, you can t do that.
2
SPEAKER_00
You have to do this.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you want a future in this industry, for example, or you have to be closeted or what have you.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I think for me.
2
SPEAKER_00
the knowing and the feeling relate.
2
SPEAKER_00
The knowing and feeling good about the knowing is when you feel euphoria, is when you feel that sense of connection, when that s in congruence with what you ve been labeled as and defined as and how you re getting treated versus who you know you are.
2
SPEAKER_00
Then when that s heightened and you re losing the sense of the knowing, that s when all these awful feelings come up and the manifestation and the consequences of that
2
SPEAKER_00
self-harm, obviously mental health struggles and what have you, feelings of hopelessness.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I suppose they entwine in that way.
2
SPEAKER_06
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
2
SPEAKER_06
I m curious as to
2
SPEAKER_06
friends that you ve had in the community who may have been more limited by those statements or that pushback or that judgment.
2
SPEAKER_06
How have you been able to talk to others in the community?
2
SPEAKER_06
What have those conversations looked like when they re at their healthiest and at their best?
2
SPEAKER_00
Gosh, well, I d say those conversations are crucial, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
I d say community is
2
SPEAKER_00
maybe the biggest reason why I m even here and able to exist.
2
SPEAKER_00
And a lot of those conversations, and it goes both ways in the conversations, is
2
SPEAKER_00
someone speaking to something that might be a thought or a feeling that you thought you were alone with, because we obviously don t, you know, there s not a tremendous amount of representation.
2
SPEAKER_00
And when you are able to connect with someone that s having these similar experiences that have made you feel very alone, that have filled you with shame potentially, or put you into a sense of hiding is the,
2
SPEAKER_00
Not that you want anyone else to be suffering by any means, but when you re able to speak to someone else who s also maybe had the similar feelings when they were four, who s maybe had
2
SPEAKER_00
similar manifestations of their pain, I suppose.
2
SPEAKER_00
You feel less alone.
2
SPEAKER_00
You are then in a position where, you know, I can offer support and support s been offered to me from so many trans people that I m close to and people I ve never met whose books I ve read, you know, who ve deeply inspired me.
2
SPEAKER_00
So, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Hey everyone, this is Molly and Matt and we re the hosts of Grown Up Stuff How to Adult, a podcast from Ruby Studio and iHeart Podcasts.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s a show dedicated to helping you figure out the trickiest parts of adulting.
2
SPEAKER_01
like how to start planning for retirement, creating a healthy skincare routine, understanding when and how much to tip someone, and so much more.
2
SPEAKER_03
We re back with season two of the podcast, which means more opportunities to glow up and become a more responsible and better adult, one life lesson at a time.
2
SPEAKER_01
And let me just tell you, this show is just as much for us as it is for you.
2
SPEAKER_01
So let s figure this stuff out together.
2
SPEAKER_01
This season, we re going to talk about whether or not we re financially and emotionally ready for dog ownership.
2
SPEAKER_03
We re going to figure out the benefits of a high-yield savings account.
2
SPEAKER_01
And what exactly are the duties of being a member of the wedding party?
2
SPEAKER_03
All that plus so much more.
2
SPEAKER_01
Let s learn about all of it and then some.
2
SPEAKER_01
Listen to Grown Up Stuff How to Adult on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
2
SPEAKER_02
When the Taliban banned music in Afghanistan, millions were plunged into silence.
2
SPEAKER_02
Radios were smashed.
2
SPEAKER_02
Cassettes burned.
2
SPEAKER_02
You could be beaten or jailed or killed for breaking the rules.
2
SPEAKER_02
And yet, Afghans did it anyway.
2
SPEAKER_02
This is the story of how a group of people brought music back to Afghanistan by creating their own version of American Idol.
2
SPEAKER_02
The danger they endured.
2
SPEAKER_04
They said my head should be cut off.
2
SPEAKER_02
The joy they brought to the nation.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re free completely.
2
SPEAKER_02
No one is there to destroy you.
2
SPEAKER_02
I m John Legend.
2
SPEAKER_02
Listen to Afghan Star on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
2
SPEAKER_05
Guess what, Bango?
2
SPEAKER_05
What s up, Will?
2
SPEAKER_05
So iHeart is giving us a whole minute to promote our podcast, Part-Time Genius.
2
SPEAKER_04
I know, that s why I spent my whole week composing a haiku for the occasion.
2
SPEAKER_04
It s about my emotional journey in podcasting over the last seven years, and it s called Earthquake House.
2
SPEAKER_05
Mango, I m going to cut you off right there.
2
SPEAKER_04
Why don t we just tell people about our show instead?
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, that s a better idea.
2
SPEAKER_04
So every week on Part-Time Genius, we feed our curiosity by answering the world s most important questions.
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Were there any particular books or people that you didn t know that you came across that you think you d recommend to people to connect with that you felt were powerful for you while you were obviously now that your book s going to play the same role for so many others?
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Gosh, I mean, so many.
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And then some people I know, some I don t.
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And also a couple of books I ve read recently, actually.
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Travis Alabanza s book that came out in the UK comes out here, I think next month called None of the Above is just
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Astounding.
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I don t know if you re familiar with them.
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I m not.
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No, no, I m not.
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Yeah.
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Brilliant.
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Um, also a British book called, um, trans a trans man walks into a gay bar by Harry Nicholas.
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Um, stunning book.
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Anyway, I just sort of like just read those.
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Oh, and I just read a collection of, um, I don t know if you re familiar with Lou Sullivan.
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They ve published like massive amount of his diaries, which I just read.
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And that was,
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originally quite an interesting read, because at first you re reading someone s diary, like it is very, I did this, then I met this person, and then you really get into the flow of it.
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And it s very, you know, it s beautiful, it s emotional and intense.
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And Janet Mock s books, which are stunning, those I read probably around the age of 30.
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Thomas Page McBee s book, Amateur and Man Alive.
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I m blanking.
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No, I mean, you ve given us a great list.
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That s a phenomenal list to even get started with.
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And it s, it s incredible to hear how much, you know, I mean, you were just reeling off of book names there, but it s like so much deep study of, you know, did you ever keep a diary or during this time or a journal or anything at all over your time?
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Or was this something that was all happening in your mind ultimately?
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Mine for the most part, there were little, I did go like hunting and for any kind of old writing from whatever age.
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And I found some things as a teen, late teens and like little things from in my twenties and did kind of regret not writing more because a lot of those were really helpful.
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and fascinating to just read, you know, thinking back.
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So no, not so much, but.
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Yeah.
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But you d recommend it as a. Yes.
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As a practice.
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And I keep meaning to do it and I m not.
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Maybe I like, I wrote a book, book tour was a lot.
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I m like, I m just taking a moment and then I ll.
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I think that s fair.
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Get back into the writing flow.
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I think that s completely fair.
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Books and book tours, it s almost like you finish writing a book and you think the job s done and then it s like just started and it s, yeah, no, completely understand that.
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You were saying that, you know, and I liked how you were thinking that through.
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You were like, I actually did have the right words at four and then at 10.
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And I wonder how many young people are going to have the same conversation with their parents in the next few years.
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I think, you know, we re going to have more parents hearing the words that you used to,
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from their children, what do you think would be a healthy response from parents that you think would be helpful or that you would encourage so that they could be able to better stay connected to their children as they re going on their own journey?
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I think you really need to just listen to your children and
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not be dismissive of what they re expressing, not shame them or embarrass them for what they re expressing, and allow a child the space to explore, you know?
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I mean, even as an adult, the things I was saying to myself, the things I d internalized, and I remember this moment, which when people say things like, what do you say to young people who might be struggling or people that are struggling is, I went from, oh, am I the, oh, I don t know, oh, to,
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Well, wait, why does this energy need to be this way?
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Why can t I just be going, huh, hmm, yeah, maybe I am.
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Maybe I ll go find someone and finally sit down and really commit to speaking about this and how I m feeling and my relationship with my gender and my body, because I m not okay.
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And why can t I?
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put my shoulders back and speak to this and explore this.
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And I think in so many ways, it s just about creating that space, that gentleness and listening and educating yourself.
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You know, there is a lack of information and there is a tremendous amount of lies and misinformation about trans people, particularly about our healthcare, particularly about healthcare for youth.
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So also try and educate yourself from actual sources, from lived experience and also care that s supported by every major medical institution in the United States.
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Could you, and if this is your field of knowledge, could you expand on some of those lies or some of that misinformation that s out there, especially to do with healthcare?
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Because I think that would be really useful if you feel comfortable to, yeah.
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I mean, I can,
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do my best, I guess, yeah, but I mean the idea that children s bodies are being mutilated, flat out lie, just literally not true.
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The idea that puberty blockers are experimental, no, they ve been used for decades for children who have precocious puberty.
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And this care is sort of framed as something that s like very easily accessible and immediate, not the case at all.
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Most trans people have an incredibly difficult time accessing care.
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It s not how it s being framed in terms of this, as if it s getting like pushed.
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It s like the opposite.
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And this is like a very
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thorough, patient process that deeply involves the parents, of course, and so much of the care for children or, you know, young kids is just about supporting them, supporting a social transition, potentially, you know, name change, pronoun change, how they might want to dress, cut their hair, whatever, you know, very,
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you know, basic aspects of, you know, how we exist and how we re alive.
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And then, you know, the moment a child starts to show any sort of characteristic of, of puberty, that s when the conversation, weighed out conversation with all the information, everybody involved about puberty blockers, which can stop.
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And then, you know, if, if that s the choice or continue potentially to hormones.
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And then when we re talking about any kind of, you know,
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surgical aspect, nothing like that is happening until the age of typically 18, in some cases 16.
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But so
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I guess that s like the bulk of what I see is this idea that children are getting like mutilated or brainwashed or in environments that are forcing it.
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It s the opposite actually, you know, trans and gender nonconforming people are bullied, deal with disproportionate violence.
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So, so much of that is just, just literally not true.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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Thank you for sharing that.
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Yeah, no, it s, it s useful because yeah, I think that the challenges with
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with all of this is, like you said, there s so much misinformation and information that it s hard for people to kind of hear about things effectively.
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And we hope that these conversations like this can lead to people doing their own research, finding the right sources so that they can actually be able to make sense of something that they may not understand as well, as opposed to having an assumption based on
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uh broad generalized headlines or or just hearing people that have no i m always like oh i didn t know you were a medical professional you re not talking about any other sort of medical care uh in this way when it s supported by
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every major medical institution in the United States.
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Yeah.
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What do you think trans men can add to the conversation of masculinity or add to their thoughts and belief system around masculinity?
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I d love to hear your perspectives on that.
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I think we can add something.
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I believe it too.
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And the book Amateur I mentioned by Thomas Page McBee is so much about really a contemplation of masculinity, what it means to be a man, the man he wants to be, what have you.
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Beautiful book.
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I think you d love it.
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I mean, I ve had a lived experience of being perceived as not a man, of course.
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And
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also the sort of brief experience of like entering that space and like getting sort of treated in a different way where in many ways I feel so much for cis men being brought up and the limits put on them emotionally, encouraged to be, you know, not sensitive,
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that vulnerability is weakness on some level or what have you, just ingrained misogyny.
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Obviously we live in a very misogynistic society, queer phobic society, transphobic society, and having certain experiences I ve had in my life with men has definitely highlighted certain things that I personally wouldn t want to be in, I suppose, trans
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trans mask people can come to the table with
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with those experiences and potentially offer something different or an insight that s different.
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I hope for cis men in so many ways that there can be more encouragement for expressing emotion and sensitivity and having close friendships with other men and all these things that seem to happen that are toxic.
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such a pressure as well to just play the role of protector and provider and that stoic kind of cold demeanor around emotion or challenges or stress.
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And that comes with its own form of limits to the human experience, to self-expression, to, you know, I ve always found personally, because I was raised by my mom growing up,
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and witnessed her struggle and her stress and her pain and her challenge and just her resilience.
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And then also with a younger sister, it was, I found that very useful because I grew up in an environment that was highly emotive and highly supportive of being emotive and expressing emotion.
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And I often think about if I didn t have that experience, I don t know where else I would have got that from in my life.
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And that s interesting to think about, like how I could have grown up and never had that compass.
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It would never even have come across me.
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Where else would I have learned that?
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I definitely wouldn t have learned it at school.
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Definitely wouldn t have learned it at college.
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And then in the world of work, I definitely wouldn t have learned it either.
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So you could literally spend your whole life and never access some of these subtle, nuanced,
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expressions which are so key.
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Are there any specific interactions you ve had or moments you ve had where this kind of experience has been heightened or some of the things you mentioned that you felt like, oh wow, this was really powerful for someone or something?
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I think maybe it allowed me to have certain conversations with cis men that I hadn t had before.
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Like it created an opening and be quite frankly more empathy because I ve had not great experiences with men.
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it s easy to lose some of the empathy sometimes, you know.
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I think it s allowed me to have conversations with men about how they have not felt permitted to express themselves or have close relationships with other men or, you know, a sort of,
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a certain age where emoting or self-expression in that way is not seen as a positive.
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And if anything, you know, aggression is more, you know, celebrated or encouraged, which is damaging to the person themselves and obviously the world.
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In my life, I ve noticed things that are just more, you know, subtle, but like men who used to, if I hadn t seen them for a while, we used to hug and then now,
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where like there s no hug and I m just like, you know, these little things, I m like, wow, that s fascinating, you know?
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You know, even myself at the very beginning, like going, having these like really brief moments, like, oh, should I talk with my hands less?
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Like what, Elliot?
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Did that thought actually just enter your brain?
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No, be exactly who you are.
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But it highlighted something that even just in that tiny amount of time,
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something in me was starting to judge myself about how I was going to be as the man that I am, I m going to grow up to be.
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And it s, you know, it s sort of embarrassing to admit, but feeling those
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those sort of, yeah, pressures or misguided thoughts.
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But yeah, I think it s allowed me to have quite meaningful conversations with, with male friends that we hadn t really had before.
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Yeah.
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And they probably haven t had before.
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Yeah.
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And then I will say one thing.
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I feel like a lot is blamed on testosterone.
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And as someone who s literally jokes on me going through purity again, I will say, like, I m not more angry.
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I m the least angry I ve ever been.
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It doesn t like, I think, you know, we re not taking into account the degree of socialization and like toxic limitations that encourage, you know, a lot of the behavior and issues we see with toxic masculinity.
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Another challenge that you ve raised in the book, you said research has shown that transgender and gender non-conforming youth are four times more likely to struggle with an eating disorder.
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That obviously creates its own complexity.
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What is the research point to as the reason behind that?
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and, and how people can find support around that, especially with that complication.
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Well, gosh, I mean, I m not a, obviously like a professional that could give some exact.
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Yeah.
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What have you come across is my question.
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I mean, from my experience, it s, you know, a profound discomfort in the body of wanting to have a sense of control for me in some ways, I think to being smaller.
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I looked more boyish when I was, you know, so this sort of way of,
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like literally controlling the body and also just the sort of, you know, sort of psychically, mentally, so much of your time becomes consumed with those thoughts that I think it s allowing you to not focus on other things, to think about other things, to contemplate other things.
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You talk about in the book about how like your thoughts were consumed with contemplation for a very long time.
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And I guess that,
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now that you re able to not have to contemplate those same thoughts, almost like what we were talking about at the beginning, about the thoughts about the future and the thoughts about it being impossible, now that you have that headspace back, or hopefully more of it back, what are you directing that towards, or what opportunities is that opening, or where are you able to spend that thought power?
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Wrote a book.
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Yeah, I wrote a book.
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I mean, I make, you know, for fun, like music with a friend.
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It s actually hard to describe when it s literally now every aspect and every moment of my life.
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You know, like when people go, Oh, what was your last incident of like gender euphoria?
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I m like, Oh, this morning when I was drinking coffee in silence and just being able to sit and have my coffee, doing things in the past that
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Like I did enjoy, but a part of me wasn t there.
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So it could just be going to meet some friends in the park.
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And I m really able to just be in the park with them.
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I m not thinking about, oh, well, are they gonna, did I eat?
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Well, you only ate this much time ago.
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And oh God, I m so uncomfortable and tucking down my shirt and looking and just kind of wanting to get out always, like always wanting to just,
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the sense of always wanting to flee.
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And now sometimes, of course, there s moments where I m like, I d really love to just be home reading a book right now.
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I mean, like, I m not like, it s not like I m like Johnny social all of a sudden, but going from having like a very difficult time being social and feeling connected or now getting to feel like immersed in life versus struggling to know how to live it.
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Well, that definitely registers.
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Hearing that definitely hits.
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Thank you for explaining that.
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When you went on the book tour and you obviously, as you just said, you wrote the book, what have been the responses that have really warmed your heart or that have really connected to you in a way that are going to stay with you for a long, long time, either on tour or I m sure you ve had so many people write to you because of the book and write to your team and everyone else.
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What are some of the
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What are some of those that you could tell us now, especially now that the book s been out for a while?
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I m guessing it s only getting more and more.
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Yeah, I think the most moving and beautiful responses are people kind of expressing at all ages how me sharing my story has helped them, you know.
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feel less alone, helped them talk to their parents in a new way, helped them feel, carry less shame.
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I had a letter from someone who was, they might ve, they might ve been, you know, 50 and they d read the book.
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And then like, you know, finally I decided, yes, I m going on testosterone and just saying like how much that decision had changed their life.
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And I fully
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was like crying when I read this.
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I was just so thankful that they d want to, you know, share that with me.
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And also to know that anything you could have done or expressed would help someone feel less alone.
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Because I know how alone you can feel.
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I know how overwhelmed and burdened you can feel by this
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self-hate and discomfort that just is constantly running through your body and what it means when you do get those moments of clarity and feel connection.
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As I ve said, I ve had that with books I ve read or, you know, friendships and what communities offered me.
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So those are beautiful moments.
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And then even, you know, a friend of mine who s, who s trans mask and they, their mom read the book and like a couple of days and they said, I m now having conversations with my mom that I didn t think were possible before.
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It s like, I mean, at the end of the day, like that s the point.
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I mean, that s really the point.
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It s like, why else am I like spilling my guts in this thing?
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Like, sometimes I feel like leading up to it coming out, I m like, oh my God, why d you write about that?
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And then when you have those moments that you know could be helping someone, it s just like, to me, that s the point.
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Yeah.
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Did you encounter anyone that initially may have been, you know,
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in their own way, initially critical or judgmental, and then was able to kind of even just sit with you and hear from you or, and was able to comprehend and understand just even a glimpse into the journey.
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Did you come across any of that or hear about any of those types of stories from anyone?
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I suppose people, I don t know if the individual went on some huge arc or a change of thought, but that it enabled them to think about and understand the experience a bit more.
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Actually, in so many ways that I think so special is how much they also related to it despite having a very different experience, not being trans.
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How did they relate to it?
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They related it being, um, you know, cis and gay.
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And so obviously there s going to be like overlap there, but had, maybe they did have their certain feelings about trans people or thoughts and the book really did help, you know, their mind change to a degree.
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I m so glad that, I mean, there s so many books that you mentioned today that I want to read.
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And I know that, you know, our community is hopefully going to read Pageboy as well after this, but,
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It s fascinating to me just how.
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how we all became trained in different ways, conditioned in different ways to become closed to experiences that you would hope we would have become more curious to learn about and more open to learn about.
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And it s fascinating to me as a society how we ve become more and more closed-minded about so many issues, as opposed to being broad-minded when it obviously makes sense to be open-minded about things, makes us a healthier, happier, more growth-focused human.
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for me, I ve always talked about how I think the best thing that happened to me is I met people who were very different to society when I was young.
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And when I say different, I mean, for me, it was meeting spiritual monks.
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Like that was my personal journey.
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And so meeting a monk at 18 years old was so random to my life s journey that it was great because it presented a whole new way of thinking and ideology that I would never have
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ever thought could even be possible, and it became such a big part of my life.
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And I just, I m hoping that, you know, stories like yours and stories like this will continue to help people open up their minds to recognize how much there is in common that we have and how much there is in common experience that we can learn from and be guided by, even if it s not the same experience.
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Would that be an accurate
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mission statement to a part of the mission statement?
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Absolutely.
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Ideally.
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Yeah.
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And I mean, I, you know, like memoir in particular, it s, I read a lot of in love and so much of it are, you know, stories that are very different than mine and, and people with different experiences and identity and what have you that have
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deeply touched me and moved me and opened my mind and allowed me to grow and expand.
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And we re all learning all the time, you know, and it s, it s beautiful to have the space or, you know, to help create the space on any level that allows people to, to grow and expand in that way.
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Yeah.
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How s your perspective on love changed and the area of your life?
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definitely very different now than I was in before.
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I was very much, which I think is maybe relatively evident in the book, a bit of a serial monogamist and just like really did find it so hard to exist and function in that.
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I do think like I needed someone, like I,
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And the moment there was like attraction or a feeling, it s just sort of like, uh-huh, you know, like, and like hold on tight, you know, and staying in situations that, um, I m sure a lot of people, again, this is something that so many people would relate to in different ways, situations that weren t the wisest, that probably weren t great for either party involved.
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And that came from.
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really just not knowing how to exist by myself.
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And the feeling of love, right?
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Oof, that s like, like we escape.
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It s pardon the pun, but transcendent, you know, it s, and that feeling would give me a spark of life.
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It would give me a moment of, I can breathe.
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Ultimately though, that s not the reason why I think we should be with someone.
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And it s tad selfish on my part.
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And now I am so blown away by the fact that I can be alone.
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Like that is such an exhilarating sensation, an element of the feeling a way I never thought was possible.
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That right now I m very much enjoying being, you know,
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connecting with people, having some fun, but just sort of being on my own right now.
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And that is very new for me.
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Very new for me.
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And I want love in a relationship to be, you know,
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I mean, our stuff s always going to follow us into intimate relationships, I know, but, you know, come from a solid and embodied foundation where I know I m going into that because we re going to love each other and explore life together and grow together.
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And not because I m clinging to something for dear life.
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That sounds like it must be such a, such a. So I m single.
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I love it.
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I was about to say like just how meaningful that must feel like to, you know, it must, it sounds like such a profound place that, you know, it s such a deep space to feel that centeredness and stillness and being with oneself and that.
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confidence of just, just being in oneself, but you re single.
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So that s, we re going to throw that out there.
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How do you think the journey, and of course, you know, the communities, the trans community so well, so you would know, how, how do you think the journey is different when you are in the public eye versus when you re not?
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Like there are the obvious differences, of course, with, we ve talked about like,
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the pressure from successive movies and things like that, but are there any more nuanced or subtle things that some of us could miss in plain sight because you re not living that journey or you re not seeing it?
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A new season of Bridgerton is here.
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And with it, a new season of Bridgerton, the official podcast.
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I m your host, Gabrielle Collins.
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And this season, we are bringing fans even deeper into the ton.
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Colin Bridgerton has returned from his travels abroad.
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Is Betrothal written in the stars for the eligible bachelor?
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Meanwhile, the ton is reverberating with speculation of who holds Lady Whistledown s pen.
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We re discussing it all.
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I sit down with Nicola Coughlin, Luke Newton, Shonda Rhimes, and more to offer an exclusive peek behind the scenes of each episode of the new season.
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Watch season three of the Shondaland series on Netflix.
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Then,
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Fall in love all over again by listening to Bridgerton the official podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Subscribe to catch a new episode every Thursday.
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I don t know.
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I mean, it s so funny because it s just like my strange experience in this life.
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I mean, maybe in that you re just going through this transition in front of
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a lot of people and having people speculate or make comments or assumptions about your life and your experience that can often be incredibly hurtful and demeaning.
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And at the same time, everything, everything s like, you know, relative, everyone s sort of having that in their own individual orbit.
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And my position obviously comes with such an enormous amount of privilege.
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Like my life does not reflect
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the lives of most trans people who deal with disproportionate amount of unemployment, poverty, incarceration, violence, et cetera, particularly black trans people.
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So I d be lying if I said there weren t certain elements of this sort of unusual experience that don t have its sort of challenges or difficult moments.
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And at the same time, what I always go back to is,
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the degree in which my privilege and resources help and also protect me.
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You know, if I m getting threats, I have the money to hire security.
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I could get, you know, pay for surgery to get it quickly.
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You know, all of these aspects that
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name change, all, you know, think about that, all those documents, you know, your password, like all of these things that, um, for those that, you know, don t have the certain privileges and resources I have is, is incredibly difficult and makes life incredibly difficult.
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Yeah.
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And I m glad you raised that point because yeah, I think,
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Yeah, we have to also look at it from that perspective of just, again, going back to the reality of what these choices and decisions like actually look like in the real world, because similar, and I appreciate that view from you constantly of like looking at it from, well, this is what it actually looks like.
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This is what s actually going on.
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This is what we may not see if we re only looking at the, you know,
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And again, that doesn t take away from your journey as well.
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That shouldn t take away from the challenges and stresses and the realities of what you re experiencing.
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But I wanted to pivot to certain things because I feel like the book is just the beginning of so many more exciting, incredible adventures of what you ll go on to do and achieve.
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And I heard that you re a big history buff.
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And I m guessing you re doing a lot of reading there.
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I wonder whether there s any, has there been, and you talked about even just, I love what you ve been saying that just, and you know, when I m hearing someone speak and it really, the way you express this is really gonna stay with me.
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This idea that the biggest win is just you being able to do the simplest things in a present way.
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Like that will stay with me so much because it s something that,
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We all take for granted so much like, you know, you just, I know I do.
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Like it s a, it s a very easy thing to miss out on.
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And some of us are not even present, but even if we are present, we take that for granted.
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And so the idea that you feel so much presence in just having coffee this morning or like reading a book or being with friends in the park or what, you know, all those examples you were giving.
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Yeah, I wanted to dive into what, seeing as you re such a big reader, when did you become such a history buff and what has been the latest historic discovery that has kind of brought you joy?
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I haven t been reading too much stuff about history.
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Or anything else, anything you re reading.
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Oh, lately I ve been reading Octavia Butler because I,
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I m embarrassed to say I hadn t read Octavia Butler before.
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So I just read Wild Seed and Kindred.
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I guess obviously those books have a fantastical sort of history, but obviously a very intense history element to it.
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You know, like Wild Seed and Kindred, a very brutal history.
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I m reading more novels lately.
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Yeah, obviously both of Octavia Butler s books are novels, but also,
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Our Wives Under the Sea was tremendous.
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Brandon Taylor s new novel.
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I m trying to, is it called The Last Americans?
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I might be getting the name wrong, but his latest novel was amazing.
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So less like history specific.
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But it s all history, yeah.
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But obviously there s historical elements in a lot of the, those different things.
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Yeah.
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Not really the Brandon Taylor one at all.
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No, not the novel, but yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, the other ones.
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Yeah, no, no.
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And, and I think that, that is the point, right?
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Like I think.
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This looks fun.
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Biographies and diaries and autobiographies are all,
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have historical elements to them.
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I mean, that s where they come from.
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And one part that felt very journal-like in your book was at the end of the book, you described being at the show with Mark and having a moment of self-love that you wanted to hold onto.
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And you say, taking a deep breath, exhaling down to my toes, I wanted to hold onto the feeling, to pocket the joy, the fleeting moments of self-love.
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and I thought that felt very diary-like, like it felt very journaled, thought as, you know, very unique words.
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And I wanted to know, like, why did you choose to end the book at 16 years old?
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Like, again, we talked about the nonlinear, but specifically to end on that, after going through this journey back and forth, what was it, what was so, yeah, why end on 16 years old?
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Yeah, well, I felt like,
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sort of began the book at this time that was also involved Mark and was this period of feeling more self-love, feeling closer to myself, falling in love with my first girlfriend Paula, and then, you know, that leading up to a moment that was a big pivot in my life.
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And then to sort of
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you know, bookend that with this moment, 16, Peaches concert, what would have been the queerest environment I d probably been in at that point in my life.
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And the just palpable joy, the electricity of it.
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And
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I ll never forget that night.
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I ll never forget walking home with Mark and what that felt like, what that community felt like.
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And to end on that note there, at 16, having that atmosphere to go to, having that incredible performer who s inspired me since I was a teenager, it felt like a special moment to end on.
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Yeah, I definitely felt it.
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And it s wonderful to have that experience of euphoria through your experience in that moment.
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And, you know, Elliot, I just want to say how, honestly, I was so excited to meet you today and do this interview.
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And I love it when this happens, when you get an experience that you didn t know you were going to get.
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And that s how I feel with you today,
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You can always intellectualize what you think you re going to learn or what you think you re going to gain and I had all those ideas which I definitely have learned so much it s not that I haven t learned but it s I ve.
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kind of been moved more internally.
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And I feel that that s sometimes even more valuable because it s something that I can express from a deep place within myself.
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And I feel like I ve been moved by you sharing your experience so thoughtfully and intimately in your book, but also even getting the opportunity to sit with you today.
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And I
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I only have a couple more questions for you.
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We ask at the end of every interview, do a final five, which is a fast five in the sense that they have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum, but I always ruin it because I m so intrigued by all my guests, but I ll try.
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So Elliot Page, these are your final five.
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The first question is what is the best advice you ve ever heard or received?
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And it can be about any topic you choose it to be about.
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You know what, I don t know why this is popping into my brain, but there s a memory popping in my brain, so I m like, why not go with this?
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And the time in that period when everyone s sort of go-to was, your dream s coming true, your dream s coming true, your dream s coming true.
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Kate Winslet said to me, and I still am obsessed with Kate Winslet, love, one of just my favorite actors of all time.
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And I was too shy to go up to her at this party or something.
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It would have been the first time we met.
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She just came up to me and was like, oops.
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Obviously, it took me a long time to listen to the advice properly, but she was just like, don t let them change you.
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Like, don t.
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Like, you hold on to yourself, essentially.
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Don t let this end.
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I ll never forget it.
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Who was, I think, the only person in who that whole period basically said anything like that, you know, from that.
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And I ve always remembered it.
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And it s always meant a lot to me.
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I think that s a great answer.
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And yeah, what a beautiful statement.
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Don t let them change you.
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Hold on to yourself.
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That s, that s beautiful.
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Okay, great.
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Second question.
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What is the worst advice you ve ever heard or received?
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Sure, this is easier.
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yeah yeah don t be you know don t tell people you re queer and disguise yourself to to trick them yeah even those words disguise yourself to trick them and say yeah it s it s hard to live in a disguise and as a trick so
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which is just so silly too, as if like, so you re telling me lesbians don t wear dresses, like what are we, like just the whole binary aspect is just ridiculous.
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Yeah, what are we trying, yeah.
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So boring, God.
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Question number three, what is something you used to value that you no longer value?
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I think like a certain idea or what we envision success to be, you know, that s not really that important to me anymore.
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Yeah.
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And that was clear from what you said earlier, the idea that you were willing to let it all go if you re allowed to be who you are and be yourself.
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Totally.
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Yeah.
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It s just like not what success means to me.
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Question number four.
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What is something that you re currently trying to unlearn?
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I guess still, you know, whatever shame still lingers that was projected onto me by those around me, society, um, obviously in so much better place, like so much of it s probably unconscious, but as if it s not, you know, still lingering and still disconnecting from those thoughts or feelings that make you feel small.
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And fifth and final question, we ask this to every guest who s ever been on the show.
7
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And I m really intrigued to hear your answer.
7
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If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?
7
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God.
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You can take your time.
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One law that everybody had to follow.
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Don t be a bully.
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That s a good one.
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Bullying is outlawed.
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Any type of bully, yeah.
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I think that s a good law.
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There s a rule that needs to become a law.
7
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Yeah, I love it.
7
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Elliot Page, everyone, the book is called Pageboy, a memoir.
7
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If you haven t read it already, highly recommend it.
7
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Read it for your own education, share it with friends, make your next book club pick to be able to discuss it, dissect it, support the communities around you, support your friends who are on their journey.
7
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I d love for you to share with me and Elia the thoughts, the reflections, the insights that stayed with you.
7
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There were so many things that I felt and experienced through this conversation that are definitely going to stay with me.
7
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And I d love to see, I know that you re phenomenal at doing this, you re phenomenal at doing edits and cuts on TikTok and Instagram and X, and I d love to see
7
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what are those moments in this interview and conversation that are gonna stay with you and that you re gonna pass on to others?
7
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Elliot, thank you so much for your time, your energy, your presence today.
7
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Like I said, I will take this experience around and share it with many people because it s an experience that I ve really felt deeply through your words and through your presence today.
7
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And so often when I m sitting in this chair, the number one feeling I m having is
7
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I wish the world could feel what I m feeling right now, because so often I m feeling if people could understand the pain, the hurt, the trauma that people like yourself are experiencing and could experience your humanity in the way that I m experiencing, then maybe we wouldn t treat each other that way, that maybe we wouldn t speak to each other that way, that maybe we wouldn t
7
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impact each other in that negative way.
7
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I m really thankful I got to spend this time with you and I really hope that more and more people get to experience you through your book and through your work so that they too can understand more about themselves and more about you.
7
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So thank you so much.
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Thank you so much.
7
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Thank you.
7
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Really appreciate it.
7
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If you loved this episode, you ll enjoy my conversation with Meghan Trainor on breaking generational trauma and how to be confident from the inside out.
7
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My therapist told me stand in the mirror naked for five minutes.
7
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It was already tough for me to love my body, but after the C-section scar with all the stretch marks, now I m looking at myself like I ve been hacked.
7
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But day three when I did it, I was like, you know what?
7
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Her thighs are cute.
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Guess what, Will?
7
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What s up, Mango?
7
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I ve been trying to write a promo for our podcast, Part-Time Genius, but even though we ve done over 250 episodes, we don t really talk about murders or cults.
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I mean, we did just cover the Illuminati of cheese, so I feel like that makes us pretty edgy.
7
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We also solve mysteries like how Chinese is your Chinese food and how do dollar stores make money?
7
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And then, of course, can you game a dog show?
7
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So what you re saying is everyone should be listening.
7
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Listen to Part-Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.