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My friend, I am such a big believer that your mindset is everything.
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It can really dictate if your life has meaning, has value, and you feel fulfilled, or if you feel exhausted, drained, and like you re never going to be enough.
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Our brand new book, The Greatness Mindset, just hit the New York Times Bestseller back-to-back weeks.
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And I m so excited to hear from so many of you who ve bought the book, who ve read it, and have finished it already, and are getting incredible results from the lessons in the book.
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If you haven t got a copy yet,
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You ll learn how to build a plan for greatness through powerful exercises and toolkits designed to propel your life forward.
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This is the book I wish I had when I was 20 struggling, trying to figure out life.
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10 years ago at 30, trying to figure out transitions in my life and the book
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I m glad I have today for myself.
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Make sure to get a copy at lewishouse.com slash 2023 mindset to get your copy today.
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Again, lewishouse.com slash 2023 mindset to get a copy today.
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Also, the book is on audible now so you can get it on audiobook as well.
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And don t forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode.
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I was so shocked to learn in the research that the opposite of belonging is fitting in.
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Because fitting in is assessing a group of people and thinking, who do I need to be?
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What do I need to say?
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What do I need to wear?
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How do I need to act?
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And changing who you are.
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And true belonging never asks us to change who we are.
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It demands that we be who we are.
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Welcome to the School of Greatness.
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My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur.
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And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness.
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Thanks for spending some time with me today.
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Now let the class begin.
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Welcome to today s special episode.
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Over the last 1300 plus episodes, there have been so many impactful interviews that I ve been lucky enough to have.
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And I always like to reflect on some of the most powerful.
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And this episode was one that resonated with most of you guys in the past.
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And I m excited for the value it s going to bring you today as well.
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So I hope you enjoy today s episode.
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I m very excited about this because you have a new book out called Braving the Wilderness, the Quest for True Belonging and the Courage to Stand Alone.
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Make sure you guys get this book right now.
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It s going to change the game.
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And I got a chance to go through it.
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Love everything that you write about in here.
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And I feel very connected to you.
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Yeah.
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I felt very alone for almost my entire life.
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I felt like I didn t belong anywhere.
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I was the youngest of four.
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I was always picked on, bullied.
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I was sexually abused when I was a kid by a man that I didn t know.
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I was always picked last on sports teams.
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And I know you weren t even picked for, I think it was the step team or some type of- Oh yeah, the drill team.
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The drill team.
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I remember how that made, that kind of transformed your life.
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It was defining.
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Defining, right?
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These moments that we go through as kids can really define and shape us.
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And so I m just, I feel connected to you in that sense that I felt very alone and didn t know who I was for a very long time.
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And still I m trying to learn who I am.
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Yeah, me too.
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You are?
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Yeah.
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But you seem like you have it all figured out.
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Oh God.
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No, I don t.
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No, I don t have it.
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I mean, first of all, I think
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The one thing I ve learned in my research above all else is that in the absence of love and belonging, there s always suffering.
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So when I hear about your experiences growing up, that s suffering.
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That s real suffering.
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And for me, not making the drill team when I was, I think it was in eighth grade, by itself is not a lot, but how my family responded to it.
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It was like when things changed for me and I didn t feel like I belonged to my family anymore.
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So I think that I still am trying to figure it out.
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I don t know that I ve interviewed anyone, even spiritual leaders, who have the belonging thing completely nailed because I don t think it is what we think it is.
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I don t think that it s having a big posse of friends or having a crew or rolling with a bunch of people.
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I think I m still trying to figure it out because
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I still feel lonely and alone and on the outside of things on a really regular basis.
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Really?
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Mm-hmm.
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I mean, you re going on a book tour with thousands of people.
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Yeah.
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15 city tour.
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Yeah.
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Millions of fans around the world and you still feel alone.
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Yeah, I can feel really lonely.
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Why?
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And it s really hard because, you know, you talk about that book tour.
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I m a severely introverted.
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Yes.
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Super private.
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And so I love that connection between me and audience, but it can also be hard on me.
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And also I m talking about things that no one.
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It s weird to me that people sign up to talk about them, but they re hard topics sometimes.
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And we laugh and we have fun and we ll sing.
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But, um, I think what I ve learned in doing the research on belonging is that belonging is being a part of something bigger than yourself, but it s also the courage to stand alone and to belong to yourself above all else.
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And so I think I spend a lot of time belonging to myself and
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sometimes that makes other people uncomfortable.
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And so I think that s hard.
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I think I do feel, I m always looking for, I don t know about you, but I m always looking for the roadmap.
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Like I wanna find the researcher, storyteller, Christian, lover of all people, fighter of the resistance.
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I wanna find the blueprint of who s ahead of me, believing what I believe in and doing it really well.
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but there s not really a blueprint sometimes.
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I mean, like a myth.
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We re all trying to figure it out.
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Yeah.
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We re all trying to figure it out.
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I don t get to copy anybody.
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And so it s hard.
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Yeah.
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It s still hard.
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But here s the thing that has changed everything for me.
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I belong to me.
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So even when I feel alone and I wonder like, who s my crew and who are my people?
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I belong to me for sure.
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For the first time in my life, maybe.
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Yeah, and I think we lose ourselves sometimes by trying to belong in groups that we don t fit in.
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Yeah.
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You know, I remember being the youngest on these sports teams growing up.
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I was playing on the junior varsity as a freshman or the varsity or whatever, so I was the youngest, and I remember just wanting to fit in, just like you did on that team.
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I wanted to fit in, I wanted to feel like they liked me, like I mattered, like I was a cool kid or whatever.
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And when they would do things that I didn t really agree with, or they would bully other kids or make fun of people,
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It s like, I didn t want to not say anything.
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I didn t want to stand against them because I wanted to belong.
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So if I did stand up against them, then that means I was alone.
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And that was my biggest fear, was being alone.
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Oh, yeah, because that s what teams and groups deliver.
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They deliver this thing that you re not alone.
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The problem is there s just, I was so shocked to learn in the research that the opposite of belonging is fitting in.
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Because fitting in is assessing a group of people and thinking, who do I need to be?
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What do I need to say?
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What do I need to wear?
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How do I need to act?
0
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And changing who you are.
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And true belonging never asks us to change who we are.
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It demands that we be who we are.
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Because if we fit in because how we ve changed ourselves, that s not belonging.
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That s not belonging because you betrayed yourself.
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for other people, and that s not sustainable.
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Yeah, you start to lose yourself.
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You start to lose yourself, exactly what you said, and so I think it s hard.
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You have to show up as who you are.
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How do we find out who we are?
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That s the life s work, right?
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That s frickin  hard.
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Do you know who you are?
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Yeah, I do.
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Who are you?
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In what way?
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If someone just said, who are you, Brene, what would you say?
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Uh, Rene Brown.
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Mom, partner, researcher, storyteller, Texan.
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I don t know, I ask them how much time they have.
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Because, you know, the thing is that we want to, when we ask people who they are and we want to know, we d like those really easy files to put them in.
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But I m a complicated person.
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Yeah, and so I think, I know who I am.
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What makes you complicated?
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I don t know if I m complicated, but I m complex.
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You re interesting.
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I hope so.
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Some days yes, some days no.
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I think what makes me complex is I think what makes everyone complex is the paradoxical nature of people.
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I speak in public, I love doing that, but I m incredibly introverted.
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I m kind of a traditionalist around things.
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My kids say yes ma am, no ma am, but I also raise them to challenge authority every time they get the opportunity to do that, but to be really polite when they re doing it.
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So I think I m unapologetically earnest.
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Like I believe in the goodness of people, but I believe it s hard work to stay out of fear and stay good.
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I think I am
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I understand people.
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I think I have a lot of empathy, but I m also not afraid of discomfort.
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So I think there s just a lot of push and pull.
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And I think that s true of all of us.
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I do not like to be defined.
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Do you?
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I was going to say, I feel like my entire life, I didn t want to be defined as well.
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They were like, you re going to be this jock in college.
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You re going to be like this alcoholic.
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You re going to be in the frats.
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All my siblings said this to me, and I was like, no I m not.
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I made a bet with each one of my siblings, $100 each, that I want to have one sip of alcohol in college.
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Because I was like, I want to go against everything you think I m going to be.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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I joined the school musical, because they were like, you re just going to do sports.
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I sang, I played guitar, I salsa danced.
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I was like, I m going to do everything different than what people would expect of a tall, white man.
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SPEAKER_01
Right?
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That s awesome.
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I was like, I want to be different.
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Yeah.
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And I think in that process, I was trying to discover who I really was, what I liked, my dreams, what was fun for me.
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As opposed to just trying to fit the box and the mold of everyone else.
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Because you can lose yourself in that fitting in, I think.
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You can lose yourself in the fitting in, and you can lose yourself in the rebuttal to the fitting in.
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SPEAKER_01
It s true.
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Trying to go against it, I ll tell you.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s really hard.
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SPEAKER_00
I mean, it s the thing that...
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It s a quote that is, Braving the Wilderness is all about this, starts with this quote from Maya Angelou, that we re never free until we belong nowhere, we belong everywhere, which is nowhere, which is no place at all, which I thought was a terrible quote for many years.
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And I was like, why are you saying that, Dr. Angelou?
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You re pissing me off.
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But then I realized, really, and she says, the cost is high, but the reward is great.
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And I think,
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I think that s the thing, that I feel like I belong everywhere I go, no matter where it is or who I m with, as long as I never betray myself.
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And the minute I become who you want me to be in order to fit in and make sure people like me is the moment I no longer belong anywhere.
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SPEAKER_00
And that is hard.
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SPEAKER_00
I mean, that s a hard practice.
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That s an everyday practice.
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SPEAKER_00
Wow.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, because I can be whoever you want me to be like that.
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SPEAKER_00
You re like a chameleon, you said.
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Oh, I can be totally like a chameleon.
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Sometimes it s really funny, because I travel so much, I have all these miles, I always sit in business class, and I m normally the only woman in business class.
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SPEAKER_00
Every now and then there s one other maybe, which is a conversation we should be having too.
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SPEAKER_00
Sure.
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But it doesn t matter what dude sits next to me.
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Like, I can talk about whatever that person like.
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And it s so funny because we ll talk about sports usually first, or football, or we ll talk about politics, and they ll say, what do you do?
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And I ll say, I study vulnerability and shame.
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Oh, well, huh, well, I m gonna play some Angry Birds, you know, and write that moment.
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Like, I can just, it s not that I know everything about everything, it s just,
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So you re saying most men don t wanna chime in and learn more about that?
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SPEAKER_00
No, that s usually, if I wanna go to sleep, I m like, I m a shame researcher, what do you do?
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SPEAKER_00
You re like, okay.
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But I think I can be anything.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you re adaptable.
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SPEAKER_00
I m adaptable and adaptable is great because anyone that comes to my home or here to work, I can make you feel comfortable.
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SPEAKER_00
Of course.
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But then if I get so adaptable that my goal, my intention of adapting
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is to make sure you like me, then that s when I betray myself.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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Yeah.
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What would you say is the time in your life you ve been the most alone?
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High school.
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Just the whole journey?
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Yeah, it just sucked.
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It does suck.
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And you know, my daughter just graduated from high school, and she had this amazing experience.
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You know, just incredible experience.
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And it was so healing to watch.
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SPEAKER_01
Oh, that s nice.
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Yeah, and I think it happened because
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She, I think she had the confidence to put herself out there and, you know, student council president and, you know, that kind.
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I think because we have a rule at our house that no matter what, you belong here.
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No matter how goofy, awkward, afraid, wrong, it doesn t matter, you belong here.
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And so I think when we give our kids a platform like that at home, it gives them the courage to take risks outside of home.
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Does that make sense?
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Because they feel safe coming back.
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No matter what happens, they always have a place to come home to.
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SPEAKER_00
And I grew up in a house where it was very chaotic.
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I m the oldest of four.
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SPEAKER_00
And fitting in and being cool was the most important thing.
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SPEAKER_00
So I think without that pressure, I probably would have never tried out for that drill team.
1
SPEAKER_00
But in my world growing up, you only did two things.
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You were a cheerleader, or you were on the drill team.
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preferably you married a running back or a quarterback.
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SPEAKER_00
I mean, that was the way it went.
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SPEAKER_00
And so for me, I probably would have been like president of the French club.
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SPEAKER_00
I would have been in debate or those kind of things.
1
SPEAKER_00
The newspaper.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, for sure.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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Photographer of the year book.
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SPEAKER_00
But those things did not have a lot of value.
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SPEAKER_01
Really?
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Your parents didn t instill that as something credible or worthwhile?
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SPEAKER_00
No.
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SPEAKER_00
It s just cool was the number one value at home.
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SPEAKER_00
Cool.
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SPEAKER_00
lots of friends, popular, and that just wasn t my, I wasn t that thing.
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SPEAKER_00
You know, I was, yeah, I wasn t, and so what I did is I just started drinking, smoking weed, hanging out with, you know, I found a place to be, you know, cool, and yeah, that just goes bad fast.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
Have you ever had a conversation with your parents about this?
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SPEAKER_00
Oh yeah, we ve talked about all of it.
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SPEAKER_01
You have?
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
You ve let it go, you ve processed it all?
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SPEAKER_00
Oh yeah, because they, you know, they read my books as I write them, and they re, you know, they re like,
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SPEAKER_00
this is exactly what every parent wants, a child who grows up to be a shame researcher.
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SPEAKER_00
But no, they just, that s the miracle of my parents.
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SPEAKER_00
Like my parents, they ve taught me the best thing about parenting that anyone I think could ever know, which is it doesn t end when your kids leave.
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SPEAKER_00
Like they keep growing and exploring and however hard it was for me not being able to be, we did not do vulnerability growing up.
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SPEAKER_00
No, no, no, no.
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SPEAKER_00
Our family motto was literally lock and load.
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SPEAKER_00
Get ready, family trips, you re in the car for five hours, that s all six of us, you really have to go to the bathroom, but the rest stop is on the other side of the highway, we re not pulling over.
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SPEAKER_00
Suck it up, hold it.
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SPEAKER_00
We were tough, we were tough.
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SPEAKER_00
We d fall down and get hurt.
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My dad would say, I got bigger scratches than that on my eyeball.
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We were tough, and we were taught
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to outrun vulnerability.
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SPEAKER_00
We were taught to suck it up, soldier on, get her done.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so however hard that was for me growing up, imagine what it was like for my parents in the 50s.
1
SPEAKER_00
My dad, who was the youngest of six, his dad died when he was 16.
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SPEAKER_01
Was he able to process that or no?
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SPEAKER_00
No, he just did the next thing you do.
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SPEAKER_00
Played football, played college ball.
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SPEAKER_00
My mom, who s my grandmother, who I named my daughter after, was an alcoholic.
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SPEAKER_00
And she was drunk every other day of my mom s life.
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SPEAKER_00
But she was the most amazing person in the world.
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SPEAKER_00
But everyone knew she was an alcoholic, so my mom wasn t allowed to have friends at her house growing up.
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Because it was the 50s, and she was divorced.
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And so my mom became the head of the drill team, and the valedictorian.
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And so however hard it was for me growing up,
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having to try to outrun vulnerability.
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It was a million times harder on my parents.
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SPEAKER_00
And they didn t, they did what they knew how to do.
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And they loved us as much as they could love us with the tools they had.
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And so I don t have, I think the hard part comes from people that I ve interviewed my whole life where the parents don t grow and change.
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SPEAKER_00
and they see anything a child trying to do differently as criticism of what they did, as opposed to my parents who lean in and say, tell me more about that.
1
SPEAKER_00
I have a funny story.
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SPEAKER_00
You ever hear a funny story about my dad?
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s great.
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SPEAKER_00
So we do a lot of choice theory with my daughter and my son.
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SPEAKER_00
And so choice, my husband s a pediatrician.
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SPEAKER_00
So like, we knew a lot about child development from our, just from school.
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SPEAKER_00
And so when Ellen was little, we used to do this thing where we would say, you know, you have two choices.
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SPEAKER_00
Like, Lewis, you have two choices.
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SPEAKER_00
You can either hand me the water.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m going to have to take it from you.
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SPEAKER_00
What is your choice?
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SPEAKER_00
So that if you decide not to hand it to me and I have to take it, it s not my fault.
1
SPEAKER_00
That was your choice, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
And so one night I was talking to Ellen and we were at my dad s house in San Antonio.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, Ellie, you need to turn off Dora the Explorer.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s time to go to bed.
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SPEAKER_00
And she s like, mm-mm.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I said, Ellen, you have two choices.
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you can get up and turn off the TV, or I m gonna get up and turn it off for you.
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And if I have to get up and turn off the TV, you re gonna lose privileges to watch it tomorrow.
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And that s your choice.
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Yeah, that s your choice.
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So do you know and I would hate that for you But that will be your choice.
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And my dad was sitting in the recliner next to me like I m Sis, what are you raising a hostage negotiator?
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I was like dad and he s like seriously Renee.
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We had four of y all.
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We didn t have time for that Yeah, so the next day I come home.
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I m visiting friends in San Antonio and he s watching Ellen and he s in the driveway It s like a hundred and ten degrees in San Antonio and he s sweating.
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He s like Ellen.
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Yeah
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I ve got two choices.
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You can either put the bicycle up or I m gonna have to put it up for you.
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And the second one s a dumb ass choice.
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So I was like, wow, you re so close.
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You re getting there.
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But my parents are amazing in that way that like, they re learning and changing.
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So I think it s harder when parents say, I m done.
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What you got was what you got.
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No apologies, no change, no amends, take it or leave it.
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And if you do it differently with your own kids, you re a sucker.
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And I think we see that a lot.
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Yeah, we do.
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I mean, what should parents be learning about how they can grow?
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I mean, how can they start to be aware?
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Because I think it starts with being aware.
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Yeah, for sure.
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Of what they know and what they don t know, and being receptive to learning something different, which is really hard to do, I think, once you ve had these habits for so long.
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So that s the first thing.
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And I want to dive into
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the lack of vulnerability with what s happening in Charlottesville right now as well, because I know you did something on that this morning.
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So I guess how can parents listen to this and be aware and be willing to move forward in a different way of learning something new when they re so stuck in their ways, potentially, that it s worked for them to this point to get to where they re at?
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You know, I think, I believe,
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this with my whole heart.
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I believe that 99.9% of parents are truly waking up every day and doing the very best they can with what they have.
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I don t think there are a lot of parents who wake up
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and maliciously try to screw up their kids or hurt their kids or belittle or shame their kids.
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I think we re doing the best we can with what we have.
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And so I think to let go of the idea that if I have done something that I could have done better or that I could learn from, that I have to just come down.
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People defend their parenting like they re defending their lives because it s such a shame minefield.
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You know, I mean, a great example is the work you re doing around men and vulnerability.
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I cannot tell you the number of fathers and the hundreds if not thousands of fathers I ve interviewed that said, I shamed my son every time he was vulnerable.
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I put him down.
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I made fun of them.
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I hit him every time he was vulnerable.
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And now I look back and I know it s because that s the way I was raised or I was afraid he d be soft and get hurt at school or, you know, whatever the thing is.
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And so,
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I think for parents it s about understanding, giving yourself permission to not, I m not perfect.
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I ve never not been a researcher and a parent.
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My husband s a pediatrician.
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Our kids will be in therapy.
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And the reason why I think that ll be so successful is there s only two kind of kids you raise.
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Kids who will ask for help when they need it, or kids who won t.
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And that s as good as it gets, is to raise a kid who ll ask for help.
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Yeah, I never asked for help.
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Yeah.
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I was always suffering inside.
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Yeah, right.
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And I always felt shameful, guilty.
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Right.
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And I just, my way of asking was being angry, resentful, mad, hitting people in sports.
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Yeah.
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Or outside of sports, because that s all I knew.
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I ll tell you a story about a guy that I interviewed, one of the first men I interviewed when I went from interviewing all women to men, was a guy who I said, what is shame for you?
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And he used the P-U-S-S-Y word.
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which is like just synonymous with shame in male culture, right?
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And he said, I ll never forget the day that changed my life.
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He said, I was at football practice.
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I was a freshman in high school.
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And he said, the coach yelled, get on the line.
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And I didn t want to get on the line, the line of scrimmage, in case people don t know.
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I know you know, but he asked me to make sure I walked through all the sports metaphors with him.
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And he said, I was afraid to get on the line because I know, you know, it s where people crash into each other.
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And so I must have had fear on my face because my coach looked at me and said, don t be a P-U-S-S-Y, get on the line.
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And he said, that s the day that I learned that the way you deal with that is you change that fear into rage.
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And he said, and I just plowed over the guy across from me.
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And then he said, then I spent the next 20 years plowing over my wife, my children, my colleagues, the people who worked for me.
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He said, that s what I did with my fear.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I can definitely relate.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I remember being picked last on a team once when it was a co-ed sport.
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We were playing dodgeball on the playground.
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I think it was third or fourth grade.
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And there was two captains, two guys.
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And they were picking one at a time, right?
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Oh, God.
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Brutal.
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They pick all the guys.
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Yeah.
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And I m like, OK, I m going to be the last guy chosen.
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Yeah.
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But then they go and pick all the girls.
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And then I m going to pick my name.
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I m just by default the last pickers team.
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And so as a boy trying to fit in in third, fourth grade, it was devastating.
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And I told myself in that moment, I was like, never again will I be picked last.
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at any sport.
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I ll do whatever it takes.
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I m going to be a machine.
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I m going to train for six hours a night.
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I m going to, you know, take no prisoners mentality and just, I mean, I dominated on that dodgeball game that day.
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I was just like throwing the ball, like just diving everywhere.
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I was like, never again.
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Did you ever get picked last again?
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Never got picked last again.
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And it helped me achieve, you know, I was All-State in multiple sports, I was All-American in two sports, I broke world records, I played professional football, I play on the USA handball team now.
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And it guided me towards achieving these things, but it left me feeling very unfulfilled every time I achieved them.
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or anytime we lose, it was like an attack on my life.
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Every loss we ever had on a sport, it was like my life was at stake.
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And I felt like I was worthless.
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Because if I didn t win, that meant no one was gonna accept me, or I wasn t good enough, or I was gonna be picked last or something.
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So I would take it so personally when I wouldn t win.
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And then I would take it out on my family, my girlfriends, my friends, everything.
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And I didn t know how to communicate.
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And I m still learning, you know, I m still imperfect every day, but it s like, I wasn t even aware.
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There was never information about how to connect or how to communicate and feel like it was okay or you re allowed to.
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Because anytime you try to talk about any vulnerabilities as a guy growing up for me, it was like, you re a P-U-S-S-Y.
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Don t be a little girl.
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Don t be a B-I-T-C-H.
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You know, all these things.
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And so it s very, I think it s very hard for me and especially for a lot of men who grew up to stand alone and feel like they belong in an isolated world.
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If they re not going to join a group that s going to make fun of them or put other people down.
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So how do we stand alone when we re not introverted or we want to be around other people?
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How do we
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and how can men communicate better or feel like it s okay to be vulnerable?
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We were talking before about how most men that I know played sports with would never watch the Power of Vulnerability TED Talk, or they would never read books from you or Oprah that I m aware of, because they would talk bad about female leaders trying to talk about vulnerability.
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They would say, that s soft, that s weak, I don t watch that stuff, I don t read that stuff.
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When really that s the stuff we need the most, in my opinion.
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And I think it s changing.
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I think I told you earlier that I think 50% of the readers of Daring Greatly are men, and the vast majority of leaders who bring me into organizations are men.
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And I ll tell you why.
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I can flip it for you on a dime.
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So it used to take me when men would say, this is how the call would go, hey, we d love for you to come in and work with our leadership team.
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We saw your TED Talk.
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We thought it was great.
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Are you available?
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And I d say, sure.
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What do you want me to talk about?
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And they d say, anything but vulnerability and shame.
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And I would say, why?
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So what do you want me to talk about if I don t talk about vulnerability?
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And they d say, courage.
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And then I would say, OK, then I would try to spend like a half an hour explaining the relationship between vulnerability and courage.
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Because all men want to be brave.
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Isn t vulnerability courage?
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Vulnerability is courage.
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Isn t vulnerability power?
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Yes.
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I have to ask one question to flip the whole thing.
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It s this.
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Vulnerability is defined as uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure.
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Can you name
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one act of courage that you ve ever been involved in or that you ve ever even witnessed that did not involve uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure?
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And it s a loaded question, because I know the answer is no, because I ve asked it thousands and thousands.
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I ve stood in front of Navy SEALs and Special Forces
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military personnel and said, give me an example.
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I want you to try hard to give me an example of courage that didn t require vulnerability.
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And in 10 years, I ve never had a single person be able to come up.
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I ve even had two guys come up to me who were in the military that said, we re gonna think about it and get with you.
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And I said, oh my God, I said, do it.
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I would love it.
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Give me an example of courage, even on the field that doesn t involve vulnerability.
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Like if you think you re being brave and it doesn t involve risk or uncertainty, you re not being that brave.
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If you know how it s gonna turn out, it s not courage.
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And so in that moment, people go, but I wanna be brave and I don t wanna be vulnerable.
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And I m like, therein lies the great dilemma of our time.
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Yeah, no one wants to be uncomfortable.
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No one wants to be vulnerable and everyone wants to be brave and it just doesn t work like that, right?
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And anytime we try something new we ve got a we ve got to be uncomfortable.
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Yeah, it s fun I mean when I ask people what is vulnerability people would say initiating sex with my wife Sending my child out the door who thinks he s going to make the first year in orchestra and knowing he s probably not gonna make the orchestra at all getting fired
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starting my own business, saying I love you first in a relationship, trying to get pregnant after my first miscarriage.
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I mean, like, vulnerability is, it s uncertainty.
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It s not knowing, but doing it anyway, because it s the brave thing to do.
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And so the problem is, I think, that the greatest shame trigger for men is do not be perceived as weak.
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And in our culture, we believe that vulnerability is weakness.
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So you don t have to skip too many steps before you go, hey, it s shaming to be vulnerable.
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And so men do two things in the face of shame, pissed off or shut down.
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Put on a mask.
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Put on a mask.
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Yeah.
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And so
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What we re learning and what people are starting to see very quickly is you cannot be a courageous leader if you re not vulnerable, if you re not willing to have hard, uncomfortable conversations, give hard feedback, receive hard feedback, excavate issues like Charlottesville that no one wants to talk about.
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Like discomfort is the great enemy of courage.
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Like my motto is, we say it here all the time,
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Choose courage over comfort, because you can t have both.
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And if you think you re being brave and you re super comfortable, you re not being that brave.
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Is there an area of your life right now where you don t feel you re courageous enough?
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or something you ve been wanting to say to people that you haven t said fully or holding back on?
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I think the Charlottesville Facebook Live today was hard.
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Was it?
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Oh yes, my voice was shaking, I was shaking.
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In fact, we got here today and we knew we were gonna film us together, but we were gonna film some other stuff first, and I said I just need to do the Facebook Live because I don t wanna lose my courage.
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And I think that s hard because when you talk about race and privilege and power,
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First of all, I m going to get death threats and people are going to say all that stuff.
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You re wrong either way.
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You re wrong either way, right.
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But the ability that I have to opt out of speaking out about it because it doesn t supposedly affect me is the definition of privilege.
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So I don t believe we can opt out of it.
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And I know that I m white.
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upper middle class, really educated, Judeo-Christian, straight.
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I know that I ve got blinders on that no matter how hard I work, I will say something that is not right.
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And people will come back and they will fire off against me around it and it will hurt
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but I d rather take the chance and it hurting and learning, but it s scary to talk about this stuff today.
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Do you think?
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I think.
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It s really hard.
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And I try to come from a place of like super authentic and loving of all humanity all the time.
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Yeah.
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And I was raised by.
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I had two great parents, but my mom and two older sisters were really the ones who came back to me after they would go on a date with a guy.
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They d be like, Lewis, never do this on a date.
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Always treat women this way.
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So I ve always tried my best.
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I m imperfect in so many ways and constantly make mistakes with people.
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Yeah, me too.
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But most of my team, I was telling you before, most of my team is women.
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I think 80% of my team is women.
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And they get paid more than the men on my team, not because
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They re women, but because they produce better results.
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And my business is based on results.
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I ve got people of different ethnicities.
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I ve got people of different sexual orientations.
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And I had someone tell me last week, they said, you know, white male privilege is a thing.
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And I think you need to incorporate more values into your organization.
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so that you re not living from this white male privilege place.
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And I was thinking, I was hurt by this because I get it, I m white, there s nothing I can do based on the way I was born.
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There s nothing I can do.
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I can t change the way how I was born, but I can choose to determine how I want to live and how I want to show up in the world.
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So I m constantly trying to be mindful of speaking out more.
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Because I think that s what a lot of my friends are saying about Charlottesville.
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White men aren t opening up and talking about this more.
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It s not going to come across to the people that are, I guess, marching with torches, which just blows my mind that this is happening still.
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It blows me away that this is happening.
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I don t even understand it.
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I m like, I m blown away.
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I don t know.
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And I m just like, how can I be a better, more impactful in this place?
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And how can we get rid of this?
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How can we end it?
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Do you have the answer?
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I don t know.
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It just blows my mind.
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No, and I think we need to do a lot more listening and hear from the people who have been affected by this the longest.
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I think we do need to speak out.
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I think white silence around these issues is death.
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I mean, I just think it s
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It s terrible.
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I don t think we can come in and save the day.
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I think we need to come in with humility and curiosity and say, this is what I think and I wanna learn and if I make mistakes, let me know and I ll try to make them better.
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And I think we need to take responsibility.
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And I think it s easier sometimes for me in my life to
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just keep asking questions, just keep reading, just keep talking about it.
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And when I am so uncomfortable that I don t wanna do it anymore, just to keep doing it because to remember that my discomfort is, that s my privilege.
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And so I don t know that there s an answer other than discussions.
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And I wasn t surprised.
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About Charlottesville, really?
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No.
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I just, really, it just blows my mind.
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Maybe I m just ignorant to that.
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I don t think it s about being ignorant to it.
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It doesn t, you know, I ve studied shame for 15 years and fear.
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Like, that s what it looks like.
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Yeah.
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What do you think these individuals marching like this are most shameful of in their own life?
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Why are they so protective?
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I would never venture to guess.
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I don t know, but I do think it s about powerlessness.
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They feel powerless.
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Yeah.
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And I think that people go, Oh my God.
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Okay.
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So the white, you know, the white guy and the khakis and the, you know, fancy polo shirt feels powerless and you know, cry me a river.
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Um, I think we don t, we don t give a about that at our own peril.
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Um, not caring about it.
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and not trying to understand it.
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I m not taking it on my load for sure.
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I mean, I m not going to add it to my back.
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I got other stuff to do.
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But I am going to try to understand it because I can t imagine a way through what needs to happen over the next decade that does not involve understanding pain.
3
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There s this incredible James Baldwin quote that says, now I understand why people hold onto their hate so stubbornly.
3
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Because once they let it go, there s nothing but pain.
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And I think we dismiss and don t care about that pain at our own peril.
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Because pain will make itself known.
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It will not be dismissed.
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It s not an affect or an emotion that dissipates when it s ignored.
3
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Well, I think this is fascinating, you re saying this, because I never wanted to feel the emotional pain.
3
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It was so hard to go through.
3
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I got a breakup with a girlfriend.
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I didn t know how to deal with the emotional loss of any type of pain or suffering as a man.
3
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And I remember being in the fetal position my freshman year in college for days, sobbing in my dorm room, just curled up in a ball.
3
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because a relationship ended and I was so sad to be alone and I didn t have this person in my life anymore.
3
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And I would take it out on the football field.
3
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I was like, I don t wanna feel this type of emotional pain, so how can I inflict as much physical pain on myself and other people to get it out?
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s hard to switch that off and just be like this loving, vulnerable man after you re on the football field, like inflicting pain on other people, because you re supposed to.
3
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No, and I think whether we play football or not, we re much better at causing pain than we are at feeling pain.
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You don t want to feel it.
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No, you don t.
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And so we cause it, and we hurt other people.
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Yeah, we do.
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And if you look at leadership, whether you re in an organization leading a country, leading a family, as a parent, one of the cheapest, easiest ways to lead is to give people someone to hate and blame for your misery.
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And so we have to really watch that in our country right now.
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So if we, all you have to do when people are in uncertainty and fear is give them someone to blame and give them a place to go.
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But at the very least, a person in that office should be a moral leader.
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And that line should never be crossed.
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Because when you cross it, it says so much more about your integrity than it does about the people you re attacking.
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If you had a microphone, and everyone had headphones on, was listening to the end of this microphone, and you got a message to share to all the men in the world,
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within 60 seconds or less, and all the men were gonna put on headphones and hear a message from you.
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It s very Orwellian, I like it.
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And you got one chance to say something to these men from all over the world, and they could all understand English, and they understood you.
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You re taking care of all the logistics for me.
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All the logistics, they got it on, it s not fuzzy, there s no Wi-Fi signal, everyone s got access to hearing your voice for 60 seconds, all the men.
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And all the women are actually standing by listening as well.
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What would you say to all the men of the world in general?
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Golly.
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You know, I wouldn t want to screw that up.
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Let me think.
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Yeah.
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I think I would say that vulnerability is not weakness.
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It s about the willingness to show up and be seen when you can t control the outcome.
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And it is actually our greatest measure of courage.
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So
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show up in an authentic way and let us see your hearts because we know how lonely you actually are.
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Wow.
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Yeah, men are lonely.
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I mean, it s really, men are lonely, it s really hard.
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But I would not, I think that s, I don t think I would say anything differently to women either.
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You know, because I think
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There is certainly, you know, for women, the greatest shame trigger is do it all, do it perfectly, and never let them see you sweat, look perfect, work perfect, live perfect.
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In all areas.
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In all areas, yeah.
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Yeah, be smoking hot and brilliant and this, but don t ever look like you re putting any effort toward it.
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And so.
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It s so easy, right?
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Right, it is.
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I don t understand why my sisters have not nailed that.
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But I think, so it s hard for women to be vulnerable because it s less than perfect.
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You know, so I don t.
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You mean women aren t wearing masks?
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No.
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Yeah, and it s terrible because then the two collide.
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And you see in a lot of partnerships, I mean, I ve seen it so much in my research, this contract we have, where I ll stay smoking hot and awesome.
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And money and provider shame is such a real thing for men.
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And you do this, and this is our contract, and we re both in straight jackets till we die.
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Yeah, and so like- How do we remove those jackets?
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Yeah, we just start getting real with each other.
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We just start being really honest.
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and we see each other.
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You know, we really see each other.
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Yeah.
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Wow.
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I ve got a few minutes left.
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So I m gonna be mindful of these questions.
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I know.
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Let s go now.
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I could ask you, I could talk to you for hours.
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Is there anything you feel ashamed of still?
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Oh, I have moments for sure.
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Like I will have moments of
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But now I know.
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I mean, we can t ever get rid of shame.
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What we can do is develop resilience to shame.
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So when it happens and it washes over, that warm wash that makes you feel small and not enough, when that washes over me, rather than yelling at my kids or just decimating myself with hateful language, you know, and like, you re stupid or you re not.
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Now when it washes over me, I m like, OK, I m in shame.
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Don t talk, text, or type.
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What happened?
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So there are still, I mean, I still have triggers around it.
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I still have triggers around it, and I still think it s probably the same, motherhood, trying to do everything and balance everything and be where I m supposed to be, and that s still hard sometimes.
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What s the process that someone should take on when they feel shame, anger, rage?
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Well, shame I can really help you with is, first and foremost, talk to yourself like you d talk to someone you love.
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So if something happens and you re overwhelmed with shame, the first thing you need to do is get back on your emotional feet.
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Don t talk, text, or type to anyone, because one of the things we want to do is push that out on other people.
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I m good at that.
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Yeah.
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I m guilty of that.
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Yeah.
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So just get into a dark, quiet place, and then talk to yourself like you d talk to someone you love.
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Just be like, dude, it s okay.
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You screwed this up.
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What you said was super hurtful.
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You re gonna have to circle back and clean that stuff up.
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but give yourself a break here, just like I would talk to Ellen or Charlie if they made a mistake.
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Then reach out and talk to someone about what you re feeling.
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Shame cannot survive being spoken.
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So if I call you and I m like, oh my God, Lewis, I m in a shame storm, you re not gonna believe what happened, and you listen to me, and you respond empathically, or empathetically, with something like, oh my God, I ve been there, or oh God, I get it, I m sorry, that sucks.
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Shame can t hold on, because shame can t survive empathy.
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I 100% agree with that.
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A quick example, for 25 years, I held on to the shame of being sexually abused by a man that I didn t know.
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And I was like, if anyone knew this about me, you know, my life was over.
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That s how shameful I felt, embarrassed and, you know, abused I felt from the experience.
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And when I finally had the courage to share it,
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It took me a couple years to share it over and over many, many times.
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I don t feel shameful.
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I can talk about it openly and freely without feeling embarrassed, without feeling weak, soft, vulnerable because I own the experience and it s not something I have to hold in and react through rage because I can just share it and I can communicate as opposed to hold into this.
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And I think whenever I face anything that I m scared to talk about now, I just say, well, how can I talk about it?
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How can I journal?
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I like to journal first.
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Oh, that s huge.
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So no one can shame me.
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No one has to feel that.
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No, that s huge.
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Yeah.
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And then I start having conversations.
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And when we have ownership over that shame, I feel like it doesn t own us anymore.
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I mean, so that s a perfect example.
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First of all, it s devastating that that happens.
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It happens to boys.
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One in six.
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Yeah, and they think that s an underestimate.
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They think that that... No, one in six is what s known.
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Yeah, and they think it s probably double that because of our culture and inability of boys to speak safely, even to their own parents around it.
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I never told anyone.
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Right.
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My parents didn t know.
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Right.
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So here s the example exactly.
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You talk about it now.
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So two choices.
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You own your story.
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You get to write the ending.
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You don t own the story.
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The story owns you.
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So then you talk about it now.
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So shame can t hold on.
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But then people see and hear you talking about it.
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And it gives them permission to talk about it.
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That s why shame cannot hold on to being spoken.
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So your courage to talk about that deflates shame.
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It takes it out of the air.
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It s like filtering poison out of water.
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Because you ve got the courage to speak up.
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I mean, and that s how it works.
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And that s how all of this works.
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is that we own our story, or it owns us.
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Final two questions.
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I know I ve got to hurry up.
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OK.
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This is called The Three Truths.
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I ask everyone at the end of the interviews, The Three Truths.
5
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You ve written many books, all number one New York Times bestsellers.
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Let s imagine it s your last day many, many years from now.
5
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You get to write the story when it s your last day on your own terms, right?
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You ve written every book you ve ever wanted to write.
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You ve said everything you ve always wanted to say.
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You ve done every video, interview, whatever it is, you ve achieved anything you set out to do.
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But for whatever reason, it s all erased and gone.
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So no one has access to any of this information.
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And you re there with all the people you care about, and you have a piece of paper and a pen, and you get to write down three things you know to be true about everything you ve experienced in life.
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This is all people would have of your message left behind.
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What would you say are the three truths for you?
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Steve, Ellen, and Charlie were my greatest true loves, for sure.
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After that, everything seems small.
5
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Love takes courage.
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Be brave.
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Let yourself be seen.
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And don t wait for the grownups to get there.
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That s the myth.
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We don t know what we re doing.
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We re just putting our best foot forward.
5
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So if you have an idea or an answer, go for it.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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That s cool.
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That s cool.
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Yeah.
5
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Before I ask the final question, I want to make sure you guys go get the book.
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I m scared for the final question.
5
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Cut!
5
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Let s go.
5
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Wrap it up.
5
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The final question s easy.
5
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But this is Braving the Wilderness, the quest for true belonging and the courage to stand alone.
5
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Make sure you guys go get this book.
5
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It s going to be a game changer.
5
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Highly recommend it.
5
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I ll have it linked up everywhere on the site and below this video.
5
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Very powerful.
5
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You re an incredible writer, and I just know this is going to serve so many people.
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who feel alone in the world of uncertainty.
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And I want to acknowledge you, Brene, for being an incredible gift to the world with all of your imperfections and the beautifulness that you have within you.
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I think it takes so much courage to share these things the way you ve been doing them for years, decades.
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You ve been opening up and talking about it and to bring it out to a public platform and continue to dive in deeper
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I acknowledge you because the weight that it carries of listening to everyone else s.
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Pain, as I ve started to open up about mine, I just feel the weight of everyone now sharing with me.
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I can only imagine the weight that you get to carry and are privileged to carry because of the work you re getting to do and the impact you have on so many people who feel, who are suffering, who feel like there is no hope, there is no way out, who are stuck in all areas of their life.
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You give people such,
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inspiration and tools and education on how to transform their life.
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So I acknowledge you for all the work that you do.
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Oh, thank you.
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You re welcome.
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You re welcome.
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This is the final question.
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That s amazing.
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You re welcome.
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It s my pleasure.
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Yeah.
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The final question is simple.
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It s what s your definition of greatness?
6
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To own your story and love yourself through that process.
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That s greatness to me.
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I hope today s episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness.
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Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today s show with all the important links.
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And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as add free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel on apple podcast.
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If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend.
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Leave us a review over on Apple podcast and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis Howes.
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I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better.
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And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness Newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com slash newsletter.
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And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.
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And now it s time to go out there and do something great.