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Calling all conscious achievers who are seeking more community and connection, I ve got an invitation for you.
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Join me at this year s Summit of Greatness this September 7th through 9th in my hometown of Columbus, Ohio, to unleash your true greatness.
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This is the one time a year
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that I gather the greatness community together in person for a powerful, transformative weekend.
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People come from all over the world, and you can expect to hear from inspiring speakers like Inky Johnson, Jaspreet Singh, Vanessa Van Edwards, Jen Cinchero, and many more.
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You ll also be able to dance your heart out to live music, get your body moving with group workouts, and connect with others at our evening socials.
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So if you re ready to learn, heal, and grow alongside other incredible individuals in the greatness community, then you can learn more at lewishouse.com slash summit 2023.
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Make sure to grab your ticket, invite your friends, and I ll see you there.
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Dream sleep provides a form of almost overnight therapy.
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That dream sleep is emotional first aid.
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And it s during dream sleep at night that your brain takes those difficult, emotionally charged experiences, sometimes even traumatic memories, and it...
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Welcome to the School of Greatness.
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My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur.
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And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness.
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Thanks for spending some time with me today.
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Now let the class begin.
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Welcome to today s special episode.
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Over the last 1300 plus episodes, there ve been so many impactful interviews that I ve been lucky enough to have.
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And I always like to reflect on some of the most powerful.
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And this episode was one that resonated with most of you guys in the past.
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And I m excited for the value it s going to bring you today as well.
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So I hope you enjoy today s episode.
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Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness.
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I m very excited about our guest.
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Dr. Matthew Walker is in the house.
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Good to see you, sir.
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How are you doing?
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Good to see you, Lewis.
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Thank you so much for having me on the show.
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I m excited about this because as a former athlete, as someone who s always wanted to perform at high levels in business and sports and just have a great life, I ve been obsessed with the topic of sleep, and I ve been obsessed with creating sleep sanctuaries, figuring out what plants you put in your room when you sleep, what temperature should it be, the blackout shades, all this stuff, I ve been obsessed with this.
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And I d love to start with asking the question about if we sleep poorly, how does this impact our brain?
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If we just sleep poorly one night or over and over and over again, how does that impact the brain chemistry?
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Yeah, so I think firstly in response to the general question, sleep is probably the single most effective thing that you can do to reset both your brain, but also your body health, of course, as well.
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And I don t say that flippantly against the notions of diet and exercise, of course, both of those are fundamentally critical.
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But if I were to take you, Lewis, and I were to deprive you of sleep for 24 hours, deprive you of food for 24 hours, or deprive you of even water or exercise for 24 hours, and then I were to map the brain and body impairment that you would suffer after each one of those four,
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hands down by a country mile, a lack of sleep will implode your brain and body far more significantly.
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The only one I would probably lose out on is oxygen.
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At that point, I ll give it up.
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You know, sleep will take the silver medal, oxygen definitely gets the gold.
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But thereafter, sleep seems to be paramount.
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Over sleep, of sleep, food and water, sleep is the most important thing.
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I would say, yeah, you know, I used to say that sleep was the third pillar of good health alongside diet and exercise, but I think the evidence has suggested that I was utterly wrong.
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That sleep, in fact, is the foundation on which those two other things sit.
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And you can do wonderful things in those two domains, but if you re not getting sufficient sleep,
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Those things tend to be far more futile as a consequence.
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And so what is sufficient sleep then?
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So right now we recommend somewhere between seven to nine hours for the average adult.
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Once we know that you go below seven hours of sleep, we can start to measure objective impairments in your brain and your body.
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And in fact, the number of people who can survive on less than six hours of sleep without showing any impairment rounded to a whole number and expressed as a percent of the population is zero.
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Without any impairment, what does that mean?
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So if I can measure lots of different operations of your brain, let s say your cognition, your attention, your learning and memory, also your moods and your emotions and your anxiety or downstairs in the body, I can measure aspects of your cardiovascular system or your blood pressure, or I could measure your immune system or your metabolic system, how it s regulating your blood sugar and your glucose.
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Um,
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I can measure this sort of pinwheel, this kaleidoscope of health metrics on Lewis Howes.
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And then I can see when I keep dialing you back with less and less sleep, at what point do I see at least one of those things demonstrating a breaking point?
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And it s very rare for us to be able to find any individual who can go below six hours of sleep and not show some kind of impairment.
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And a great, even frightening demonstration of this
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A study took a group of perfectly healthy individuals and they limited them to six hours of sleep a night for one week.
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And then they measured the change in their gene activity profile relative to when those same individuals were getting a full eight hour night of sleep.
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And what happened?
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And there were two critical findings.
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The first was that a sizable and significant 711 genes were distorted in their activity caused by that one week of short sleep.
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And that s, you know, in some ways, I think about this, Lewis, because it s...
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It s reality.
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We know that almost a third of the population is trying to survive on six hours of sleep or less.
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So it s not just total sleep deprivation, which doesn t happen very frequently.
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This is a common occurrence.
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What I found most interesting was that about half of those genes were actually increased in their activity.
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The other half were decreased.
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Now, those genes that were suppressed were genes associated with your immune system.
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So you became immune compromised or immune deficient.
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Those genes that were increased in their activity, or what we call overexpressed, were genes associated with the promotion of tumors, genes that were associated with cardiovascular disease and stress, and genes that were associated with long-term chronic inflammation within the body.
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And I make that point just because, you know, many people, I think, have this concern about things such as genetically modified embryos or even genetically modified food.
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But when we don t get sufficient sleep, we are unwittingly performing a genetic manipulation on ourselves.
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You know, if we don t let our kids get the sleep that they need, then we re inflicting a similar genetic engineering experiment on them as well.
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Wow.
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This is crazy.
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So what if you ve been sleeping less than six hours a night for years?
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What is that saying to your genes?
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And is there a way to recover the gene damage and reverse and go back to a healthy genes, healthy body, healthy life?
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So firstly, we know that short sleep duration, so using that sweet spot, and we can speak about oversleeping or excess sleep, because I think that s an interesting part that hasn t been spoken about too much, but using that recommended CDC amount of seven to nine hours of sleep, there is a simple fact, firstly, across the lifespan, which is the shorter your sleep, the shorter your life.
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That short sleep predicts all-cause mortality.
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But then we can dig a little bit deeper and start to sort of ask, you know, exactly what is going on?
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Why is there such mortality risk caused by insufficient sleep?
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And what we know is that a lack of sleep and typically getting certainly less than six hours of sleep is associated with a high risk of cardiovascular disease, high risk of diabetes, high risk of stroke, high risk of dementia.
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And I would love to double click on that and go into the Alzheimer s disease risk because that now evidence is very, very strong.
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And then downstairs in the body, we know that there is links between a lack of sleep and certain forms of cancer.
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After, if I were to take you and limit you to let s say four or five hours of sleep for one week, your blood sugar levels would be so disrupted that your doctor would classify you as being pre-diabetic.
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So that s not a lifetime, that s just one week.
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And there s an even more interesting experiment that I think speaks to the subtlety of this.
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because there is the largest sleep study that s ever been conducted and it happens actually to around 1.6 billion people across 70 countries twice a year and it s called daylight savings time.
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Now
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But in the spring, when we lose just one hour of sleep opportunity, firstly, what we ve seen is that there seems to be a 24% increase in relative heart attack risk the next day, which stuns me.
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And what s fascinating, in the fall, in the autumn, when we gain an hour of sleep, there s a 21% reduction in heart attacks.
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So it s bidirectional, and that s just one hour of sleep.
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And you see, there was some great recent data, you see a very similar profile regarding that daylight savings shift for road traffic accidents on our streets.
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I ve heard about this.
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Tragically, suicide rates as well.
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And then even more recently, what we discovered is that
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During that spring time shift when you lose an hour of sleep, the sentencing of federal judges is significantly harsher because their mood and their emotion is that much worse because of that one hour of sleep that they dole out harsher sentences.
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So, you know, we can walk, you know, you can ask the question, what about a lifetime?
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We don t even have to ask about a lifetime of short sleep.
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We can ask about these really, you know, one week of short sleep or even one night of one hour of lost sleep.
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And I think that s how fragile our brains and our bodies are to this thing called a lack of sleep.
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And you could then ask, well, you know, why are we so sensitive?
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Because I can go without food for 24 hours and I can go without water for 24 hours.
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You know, I m still not too bad.
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I m in fairly decent shape.
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Why is sleep the exception to that rule?
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And the answer seems to be this.
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human beings are the only species that will deliberately deprive themselves of sleep for no apparent good reason.
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Why is that?
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And it s such a unique thing, and what that means is that Mother Nature, through the course of evolution, because no other species does this without real need for survival, and I can speak about some of the exceptions, but
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Human beings are strange like this.
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In other words, Mother Nature hasn t have to face the challenge of coming up with a solution called sleep deprivation, because she s never faced it in the course of evolution.
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And so there is no safety net in place here.
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And that s why we think human beings implode so quickly and thoroughly, mentally, cognitively, and physically, caused by insufficient sleep.
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And why do you think, why is the majority of people bad at getting good sleep?
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Is it we re distracted?
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Is it we think we need to be doing more?
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Is it we re stressed and worried about the past and the future?
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Is it, you know, what, we just want to work harder?
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What is the main cause of why we get poor sleep?
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It s such a fundamental question.
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And in some ways it s all of the above plus.
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So I think the first, and I ve thought about this a great deal, why are we suffering this global sleep loss epidemic that we re under right now?
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I think the first thing is that unfortunately sleep has an image problem.
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That, you know, the PR agent for sleep should be fired because we associate sufficient sleep with this concept of being lazy, of being slothful.
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And that s a terrible disservice to this thing called sleep.
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And it is very different to things like diet and exercise.
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You know, I think a lot of people like to virtue signal with, you know, what they eat, and they certainly are very proud to tell you,
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You know, I work out five times a week.
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I m in the gym at this time of morning and, you know, all of which I think are great and to be applauded and supported, but we have the very opposite.
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We have this almost, you know, well, we don t.
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Some niches of society have this sleep machismo attitude.
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You know, this kind of, you can sleep when you re dead mentality, which by the way, based on the evidence.
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It s mortally unwise.
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Yeah, it will lead to both a shorter life and a life that is significantly less healthy.
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So I think the first thing is we need to change our cultural appreciation of sleep from something that is a waste of time to something that in fact is an incredible investment.
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It is probably the very best and the most freely available democratic and painless health insurance policy that I could ever imagine.
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I think the next thing is the way that we work in society.
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We are working for longer hours, and before the pandemic people were commuting increasingly longer amounts of time.
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What that meant was that people were leaving the house earlier, they were arriving home later, and no one wants to shortchange time with family or Netflix or whatever is your poison,
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And so the one thing that has become squeezed like vice grips in the middle of the night is this thing called a sufficient bout of slumber.
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But then there are plenty of people who give themselves the opportunity to get enough sleep, but they can t obtain it.
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And that is where things such as insomnia or sleep disorders, things like snoring come into play.
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And you touch on, and I know that you ve spoken, and I m so grateful for what you ve done regarding discussions of mental health.
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We know that one of the principal roadblocks to getting this thing called a good night of sleep is anxiety.
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Stress, worry, anxiety, regret, all those things.
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Resentment, holding on to all that stuff.
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It is, that is toxic to sleep.
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You re absolutely right.
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And in fact, anxiety and physiological stress is our principal model for the explanation of insomnia right now.
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It s not the only cause, but it seems to be one of the principal causes.
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And in modern society, it s become so easy, and I m not finger wagging, I m just as guilty.
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We are constantly on reception, but rarely do we do reflection.
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And unfortunately, the time when most of us do reflection is when we turn off the light and our head hits the pillow.
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And that s the last time.
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That s the worst time.
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I don t know about you, Lewis, but at night in the dark, thoughts are not the same thing.
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Concerns become twice as big or 10x the size of concerns.
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I start to worry, I ruminate, I catastrophize.
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Yet in the light of day, those things seem very different.
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And so we can speak about sleep tips perhaps later on, but certainly getting right with your emotions and your anxiety is key to good sleep.
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And that s one of the things that prevents sleep.
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I also think that there is a, an issue at the public health level.
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You know, we ve had in many first world nations, wonderful government mandates regarding health, regarding drink driving, regarding
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you know, safe sex regarding drugs and alcohol and even food and even inactivity and sitting.
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When was the last time you heard of a first world nation provide a public health message and memorandum regarding sleep?
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Never.
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And I don t remember one either.
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So from every level at, you know, at a public health, global, you know, government level down to a workplace level, you know, we lured the airport warrior who s flown through four different time zones in the past three days.
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They were on email at two and then they re back in the office at six, you know, we, so we need to, we celebrated those people.
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We did, you know, and the funny thing, by the way, is that after about 20 hours of being awake straight, you are as cognitively impaired as you would be if you were legally drunk.
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Now, I would never, you know, as a CEO say, I have got this fantastic team of people, they re drunk all of the time.
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But we do say, I ve got this fantastic group of people.
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They just are at it all hours.
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They are dedicated.
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They re always working.
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They spend minimal time sleeping.
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They re just all out.
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They love this project.
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But we ve got this strange mentality.
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And then I think it comes down to, even within schools, we ve got this incessant model of early school start times.
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And super early, isn t it?
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It s it s incredible to be there.
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What?
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Six thirty or seven or something like that.
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Seven seven thirty.
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And that data is actually very powerful.
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What we found is that when we delay school start times, first academic grades increase.
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Wow.
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Truancy rates decrease.
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Psychological and psychiatric issues decrease.
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But then what we also discovered is that the life expectancy of students increased.
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And you may be thinking, well, hang on a sec, how do you measure that?
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And the leading cause of death in teenagers 16 to 18 is actually not suicide, that s second, it s road traffic accidents.
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And here sleep matters enormously.
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And I ll give you one example.
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It was in Teton County in Wyoming.
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They delayed their school start times from 7.30 in the morning to 8.55.
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By the way, what are we doing trying to educate our children at 7.30 in the morning?
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No, I can t think.
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Yeah, I mean, I remember being in school and being every day was hard for me.
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Every day I was tired.
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Every day I was hard to focus or I d be irritable or wanted to like, you know, jittery or something, but it was like so hard to focus.
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And then you re at lunchtime and then I eat and I m tired again afterwards and you want me to focus and pay attention at a desk.
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It s like that doesn t work like that for me.
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especially if you have no sleep or very little.
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Well, for any sort of developing brain, it doesn t work like that.
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And for some people to make a 7.30 a.m.
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start time, school buses will begin leaving at six o clock or 5.30 in the morning.
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That means that some kids are having to wake up at five, 5.15.
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This is lunacy.
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And what we ve understood from the academic grades, and I ll come back to the car accidents in a second,
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When sleep is abundant, minds flourish.
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And when it s not, they don t.
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And what we ve discovered with the road traffic accidents in Teton County, when they made that shift,
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The only thing more remarkable than the extra one hour of sleep that those kids reported getting was the reduction in car crashes.
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The following year, there was a 70% drop in vehicle accidents.
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And to put that in context, you know, the advent of ABS technology, anti-lock brake systems, that dropped accident rates by 20 to 25% and it was deemed a revolution.
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Here is the simple fact of getting enough sleep that will drop accident rates by 70 percent.
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So, you know, I need to get off my soapbox.
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But what I would say is this.
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I think if our goal as educators is to educate and not risk lives in the process, then we are failing our children in the most spectacular manner with this incessant model of early school start times.
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Is anyone listening to this that you ve been speaking about this too, and they re actually adopting this new model, whether it be work time or school time or just, you know, integrating this, do you know systems that are integrating this?
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There have been some, and I think I ve tried to do this in the education domain, I ve tried to do this within medicine, because the way that we train residents is almost inhumane.
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Actually, it s not almost, it absolutely is inhumane, and the statistics there are stunning as well.
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And then I ve tried to do it in the workplace too, because I do a lot of speaking events at Fortune 500 companies.
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And at first, I think I took the wrong approach where I was really speaking a little bit more about sort of the compassionate approach, you know, why it s good and kind for people to gift them more sleep.
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Because I see sleep as a biological necessity.
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And if it s a biological necessity, then I think it s a civil necessity.
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And if it s a civil necessity, sleep is a civil right.
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But what I would say is that that wasn t particularly well-received.
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I d go into business companies and say, your employees, they re desperate for more sleep, they will be happier and healthier.
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Or I would speak about medicine and I would speak about what it was doing to the patients and the harm, and it would fall on deaf ears.
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What I then realized is that if you re going to change large organizations, you have to speak in their currency, which is money.
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Yeah, you need to and then I would describe the medical malpractice lawsuits that would come and the cost savings within medicine firstly and Then administration started to change the tune because before that, you know There was almost this old boys network in medicine where we went through residency and it s almost a hazing
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And despite armed with incredible data to the contrary, I think the mentality 10 years ago when I started trying to do that was my mind s made up, don t confuse me with the evidence.
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Crazy.
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Why?
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It s because they went through that themselves and so they want to pay it back or something.
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I think so.
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I think there was some of that.
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I went through hell, so everyone else has to go through hell.
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Yeah.
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Right.
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It s a rite of passage.
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You know, if you are tough enough, you ll make it through.
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It s kind of like boot camp.
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which I don t think we need to do anymore.
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And then within business, you could describe, you know, the Rand Corporation did an independent survey a couple of years ago, and what they found was that insufficient sleep will cost most nations about 2% of their GDP of their gross domestic product.
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So here in the U.S., that number was $411 billion of lost productivity due to insufficient sleep.
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In Japan, it was $130 billion.
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My home country, the U.K., it was over $50 billion.
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So if I could solve the sleep loss crisis within the workplace, I could almost double the budget for education in the U.S., or I could halve the health care deficit.
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So when you speak about money, then people start to listen.
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So that s how I ve tried to communicate.
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But, um, and I don t think I m a, I don t think I m a particularly good communicator and I ve been sometimes bull in a China shop as I probably have been for the first, uh, however long we ve been, uh, talking, but it s just because I m so, you know, I m just desperately passionate about this thing called sleep.
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And some years ago before I started trying to, I wrote a book and then I ve been doing podcasts.
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Sleep was the neglected stepsister in the health conversation of today.
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It was a second citizen.
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And I was so sad to see the disease, the sickness, the harm, the lack of productivity, the impact on education that a lack of sleep was having.
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SPEAKER_01
And I think I just came out probably a little too strong, you know, it was sort of sleep or else, dot, dot, dot.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m curious.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, go ahead.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, no, no, sorry, please.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m curious, has there been research or studies done on if someone who has a horrible diet, they eat horrible, they smoke, they drink occasionally, but they get eight hours of sleep versus someone who gets five hours of sleep, but works out hard every day, eats perfect, clean, vegan, whatever the perfect, clean diet is for them.
2
SPEAKER_00
Don t smoke, don t drink.
2
SPEAKER_00
I wonder who has
2
SPEAKER_00
more susceptibility to diseases and cancers and poor health, and which problems are each case more prone to have?
2
SPEAKER_00
Perfect eating, but not proper, half the amount of sleep, four or five hours a night, but you re taking care of physically, you re taking care of spiritually and nutrition versus you sleep perfect, maybe you won t be able to sleep perfect if you re eating that bad, but you sleep eight hours a night, nine hours a night, but you re eating horrible.
2
SPEAKER_00
Who has it worse off?
2
SPEAKER_01
So firstly, I think you should be a sleep scientist because it s a fantastic question.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s a great study and it s an incredibly complex but important study to do.
2
SPEAKER_01
The first answer is that no one has actually done that type of experiment.
2
SPEAKER_01
We ve done a diluted version, a kind of, you know,
2
SPEAKER_01
diet, L-I-T-E version of it, which is we look at sleep and we ask, what is it in terms of the mortality risk and the health consequence risk when you re not getting sufficient sleep?
2
SPEAKER_01
And then we take all of those other factors that you ve described, smoking history, diet history, mental health history, et cetera, et cetera, and we add those as additional factors into the analysis and we absorb them and control for them so that we can say,
2
SPEAKER_01
independent of those things, or in spite or in the face of those things, sleep still carries a significant vote in determining your mortality, your rate, your date of expiration, as it were.
2
SPEAKER_01
So that s the only evidence that we have right now where you can at least control for those, but we haven t done what you re describing, which is the much more elegant, smart thing to do, which is, you know, can we put them sort of almost in a Coke, Pepsi, Dr. Challenge, kind of Dr. Pepper challenge phase and see which one wins out?
2
SPEAKER_01
You know, diet, exercise, or sleep, when those two other things are held constant, but you manipulate one of those, then
2
SPEAKER_01
hold the other two constant and manipulate one of lovely experiment love to do it not being done so we don t know what would your hypothesis be my suspicion is that sleep will still probably carry a larger influence than those two other factors now there s a lot of assumptions I m making there but I ll give you
3
SPEAKER_01
you another quick example.
3
SPEAKER_01
A study done back in the 1980s, which will probably never be repeated because of the moral and ethical issues, they took a group of rats and what they found after sleep depriving the rats was that rats will die as quickly from sleep deprivation as they will from food deprivation.
3
SPEAKER_01
So sleep is that essential.
3
SPEAKER_01
Those rats were dying usually within 20 days.
3
SPEAKER_01
So sleep seems to have a deathly consequence to it.
3
SPEAKER_01
What was also fascinating, however, is that they then, and maybe I ll back up a little bit, human beings and most mammalian species will have two main types of sleep, what we call non-rapid eye movement sleep or non-REM sleep and rapid eye movement sleep or dream sleep.
3
SPEAKER_01
And what they found was that total sleep deprivation will absolutely kill a rat.
3
SPEAKER_01
If you just selectively deprive the rat of either deep non-REM sleep or REM sleep or dream sleep,
3
SPEAKER_01
they found that the rats would still die of either one of those two, so both of those types of sleep are essential.
3
SPEAKER_01
But rats were dying almost as quickly from dream sleep deprivation as they would from total deprivation.
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, they died within about 40 days, whilst the rats who were deprived of deep non-REM sleep, they died after about 60 days.
3
SPEAKER_01
So we can almost then, not that I would wish to, pit the different types of sleep head to head and ask which is more important.
3
SPEAKER_01
Now I should say all stages of sleep are critical.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s probably one of the biggest messages that we ve learned.
3
SPEAKER_01
Different types of sleep do different things for your brain and your body at different times of night.
3
SPEAKER_01
All of them are important.
3
SPEAKER_01
But it seems as though if you want to ask the question of death risk,
3
SPEAKER_01
Dream sleep may be more important than deep sleep on the consequence basis of how quickly you die, but you need all of them.
3
SPEAKER_01
Bad things happen when you don t get any one of them.
3
SPEAKER_00
Gotcha.
3
SPEAKER_00
Can you talk about dreams and the importance of dreams?
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, we ve done quite a lot of work in this area and the belief, maybe 20 or 30 years ago, was that dreams were just an epiphenomenon.
3
SPEAKER_01
They were just a byproduct.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so the analogy would be, you know, think of the light bulbs that I think I can see behind you in that lovely background.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, when you
3
SPEAKER_01
When you create this apparatus called a light bulb to produce this thing called light, in the same way that the brain has been created to produce this thing called dream sleep, called REM sleep, when you create light in that way with a light bulb, you also produce this thing called heat.
3
SPEAKER_01
It was never the purpose of the light bulb.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s just what happens when you create light in that way.
3
SPEAKER_01
And the belief was the same thing for dreaming, that when you create this thing called REM sleep, which serves lots of different functions, one of the conscious spinoffs, one of the byproducts, is this thing called dreaming.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that never made sense to me for the simple reason, which is this, when we are dreaming, it is more consciously, energetically demanding than not dreaming, is my assumption from a brain-based perspective.
3
SPEAKER_01
And any time Mother Nature burns the most valuable unit in your body, which is called an ATP molecule, an energy molecule, then it usually has some evolutionary advantage to it.
3
SPEAKER_01
In other words, if,
3
SPEAKER_01
Dreaming is metabolically more active, and you could have REM sleep without dreaming, but she still added dreaming atop of REM sleep, then it must serve some benefit.
3
SPEAKER_01
And we ve now discovered that it serves at least two vital functions.
3
SPEAKER_01
Really?
3
SPEAKER_01
The first is that dream sleep provides a form of almost overnight therapy.
3
SPEAKER_01
That dream sleep is emotional first aid.
3
SPEAKER_01
Interesting.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s during dream sleep at night that your brain takes those difficult, emotionally charged experiences, sometimes even traumatic memories, and it acts like a nocturnal soothing balm.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it just takes the sharp edges off those painful, difficult experiences so that you come back the next day and you feel better about those experiences.
3
SPEAKER_01
And in that way, it s not time that heals all wounds.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s time during dream sleep that provides emotional convalescence, as it were.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s not just dream sleep, it s also even what you dream about, not just that you dream.
3
SPEAKER_01
In other words, I m talking about your dream content being important.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because there was a study done several years ago, and they looked at people going through a really tough time, a traumatic experience, which is a really painful and bitter divorce.
3
SPEAKER_01
And at the time when that was happening, they were recording their dreams.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then they tracked those individuals for a year.
3
SPEAKER_01
And one year later, about half of them had clinical resolution to their depression, and the other half did not.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then they went back and they separated the dreams of those two different groups.
3
SPEAKER_01
And what they found is that those people who were dreaming, but not dreaming about the emotional events themselves, they didn t get clinical resolution one year later.
3
SPEAKER_01
Those people who were dreaming, but dreaming of the event, they got the clinical resolution.
3
SPEAKER_01
So in other words, dreaming is necessary, but it s not sufficient.
3
SPEAKER_01
You need to be dreaming of what those events are to process those.
3
SPEAKER_00
How do we influence dreaming what we want to dream?
3
SPEAKER_00
And not nightmares.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s right.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, this moves us into the territory of what we call lucid dreaming.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_01
And for most people, lucid dreaming from within my field, within the scientific field, is actually a more simple definition.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s simply the moment that you become aware that you re dreaming.
3
SPEAKER_01
That you re in a dream.
3
SPEAKER_01
Whilst you re dreaming.
3
SPEAKER_01
Correct.
3
SPEAKER_00
Does that exert more energy?
3
SPEAKER_00
How many dreams exert more energy?
3
SPEAKER_00
If you re conscious and aware while dreaming, is that another level of energy that you re exerting?
3
SPEAKER_01
Gosh, you need to be a sleep scientist.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s why I ve got you on here.
3
SPEAKER_01
You don t need me, actually.
3
SPEAKER_01
So the answer is, in part, yes.
3
SPEAKER_01
So for most people, though, lucid dreaming really means not only I m aware that I m dreaming, but now I can control what I m dreaming about.
3
SPEAKER_00
Do you often have lucid dreaming?
3
SPEAKER_01
Do we often as a group?
3
SPEAKER_01
No, I personally, I ve only experienced lucid dreaming probably, you know, six or seven times, and it s great when it happens.
3
SPEAKER_01
But right now we know based on the population statistics, about 80% of the population does not lucid dream.
3
SPEAKER_01
20% of the population does lucid dream.
3
SPEAKER_01
Which then brings us on or back to your astute question which is, can we control our dreams and is that a good thing?
3
SPEAKER_01
To gain lucidity and to gain control and to give over the driving seat to me, the individual, rather than to Mother Nature s blueprint that she s worked out.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I can play both sides of the theory equation here.
3
SPEAKER_01
On one side, I would say, if lucid dreaming was so beneficial to you as a human being, as an organism, then many more people would be natural lucid dreamers than there are now.
3
SPEAKER_01
That statistic would be reversed, if anything.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, I mean, if sleeping an extra couple hours a night is more beneficial, which it is, then more people would also be sleeping more.
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, that s the hard part, is that with lucid dreaming, it s very difficult to control.
3
SPEAKER_01
But to choose not to sleep, that s unfortunately very easy to control, or society.
3
SPEAKER_00
A lot of people think it s difficult.
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, we ll come back to it.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, there s really two separate things with insufficient sleep.
3
SPEAKER_01
There is you either not giving yourself the opportunity to sleep or society not giving you the opportunity to sleep despite you being able to sleep very well versus you giving yourself plenty of opportunity to sleep, but just because you have a sleep disorder or you have sleep issues, you cannot generate the sleep.
3
SPEAKER_01
So the difference is opportunity is present, but you can t create the sleep versus you can create the sleep, but you don t have the opportunity to do so.
3
SPEAKER_01
And those two things are quite different.
3
SPEAKER_01
But from the lucid dreaming perspective, I could come back and argue the other side, which is to say, my assumption there, the belief that mother nature would have had us all doing it if it was good, makes the wrong conclusion that we ve stopped evolving.
3
SPEAKER_01
In other words, what if that 20% of the hominid population who are lucid dreaming is the next wave of evolution?
3
SPEAKER_01
They are the superhumans who will come next and succeed people like me who aren t natural lucid.
4
SPEAKER_00
lucid dreamers, so I can play both sides of it.
4
SPEAKER_01
Interesting.
4
SPEAKER_01
Is there a way to train your mind and body in order to lucid dream more?
4
SPEAKER_00
There have been some attempts, so there s a scientist called Stephen Laberge, who actually has an institute of lucidity, and he s got different courses and classes.
4
SPEAKER_00
How effective they are, it s a little bit unclear.
4
SPEAKER_00
And there are some simple techniques where you can firstly, before you go to bed at night, and it sounds hokey and strange, is just repeat like a mantra to yourself, I am going to try and become conscious in my dream.
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SPEAKER_00
I m going to try and become conscious.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then you can do virtual reality testing in the dream, and you can do this when you re awake.
4
SPEAKER_00
So right now, I am looking at my laptop, and if it s a physical entity and I m in the real world and I m awake, if I were to tap my screen, I can feel it physically.
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SPEAKER_00
And you can go around and keep reminding yourself, you know, I can go over to the light switch and turn it on, turn it off.
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SPEAKER_00
Do I have voluntary control of what s going on in my environment?
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SPEAKER_00
Because often you don t have in your dreams.
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SPEAKER_00
And then by doing that in your waking day, you can try to train yourself to do that during your sleeping, dreaming life.
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SPEAKER_00
And at that point, when you flick the light switch and it doesn t change anything, or you tap the screen of your laptop and your hand goes completely through it, then you think, oh, hang on a second, this isn t waking, you know, this is clearly a dream.
4
SPEAKER_00
So there s different ways that you can test the reality of waking life versus dreaming life and adopt that mindset.
4
SPEAKER_00
The other thing is just to simply start trying to remember your dreams some more.
4
SPEAKER_00
So in the morning, when you wake up, that s the first step towards a path of lucidity.
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SPEAKER_00
Don t jump out of bed and sort of just close your eyes and try to remember your dream.
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SPEAKER_00
Instead, wake up and then keep your eyes closed and don t try to write the dream down.
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SPEAKER_00
Don t try to dictate it.
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SPEAKER_00
Just rehearse the dream because dreams have this funny,
4
SPEAKER_00
nature to them were, as soon as we wake up, they almost evaporate so quickly from our brain.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, if you don t feel it right then, in moments or minutes, it s going to be gone.
4
SPEAKER_00
it s going to be gone.
4
SPEAKER_00
So just wait there and try to crystallize it.
4
SPEAKER_00
Try to set the dream in amber by sort of, you know, going over it and rehearsing it, rehearsing it in your mind.
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SPEAKER_00
Build that picture, build the memory, ingrain the memory, and then pick up your pad of paper and your pencil next to you on the bedside and write it down.
4
SPEAKER_00
And gradually, as you start to remember more of your dreams,
4
SPEAKER_00
there is some evidence that that can also increase the probability of lucidity.
4
SPEAKER_00
But in truth, I m not really an, I don t know anyone who s truly an expert in being able to, you know, increase the frequency with which you can lucid dream from a scientific perspective.
4
SPEAKER_00
There s lots of people out there who claim, you know, I ve got this course that you can do and, but the science doesn t support it that well.
4
SPEAKER_00
But the science now has proven without a shadow of a doubt, by the way, that there is a thing called lucid dreaming.
4
SPEAKER_00
We used to think it was a charlatan science, that it wasn t real, and we can go into the details as how you prove it, but it has been proven lots of different ways.
4
SPEAKER_00
Really?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
Do we have any research on what lucid dreaming does for healing the body or hurting the body or the brain?
4
SPEAKER_00
We haven t found evidence that it either hurts or helps right now.
4
SPEAKER_00
All we have is evidence understanding what happens when you become lucid as a dreamer.
4
SPEAKER_00
And this comes back to what you were asking about, which is, is there an additional metabolic consequence of going into lucid dreaming?
4
SPEAKER_00
One of the fascinating things when we go into dream sleep, well, there are many, but I ll give you just two.
4
SPEAKER_00
The first is that when you go into dream sleep, your brain paralyzes your body.
4
SPEAKER_00
you are utterly incarcerated in physical lockdown.
4
SPEAKER_00
And the reason is very simple, your brain paralyzes your body so the mind can dream safely so that you don t act out your dreams.
4
SPEAKER_00
So you don t go move your body and yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
Correct, and so what we know is that the mechanisms that control REM sleep and non-REM sleep start deep down within the brain, in fact in the brainstem.
4
SPEAKER_00
So if you were to take a pear, a fruit like a pear,
4
SPEAKER_00
and you were to turn it upside down, it s that sort of, you know, thin end and the stem of the pear, that s your brain stem.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s there where the principal battle for non-REM and REM sleep plays out across the night to create the 90-minute cycle of non-REM to REM sleep in humans.
4
SPEAKER_00
But as it s expressed upstairs into your brain during REM sleep, which activates lots of brain areas but also deactivates them, there s a separate signal sent south of your neck
4
SPEAKER_00
right down into your spinal cord, which paralyzes what we call the alpha motor neurons, which is all of your voluntary skeletal muscles.
4
SPEAKER_00
Now that fortunately means that your involuntary muscles, things like your heart and your aspiration, don t worry, they keep going.
4
SPEAKER_00
Otherwise we would have been popped out the gene pool together very quickly.
4
SPEAKER_00
But your voluntary muscles, those are paralyzed.
4
SPEAKER_00
The second interesting feature coming back to lucid dreaming though,
4
SPEAKER_00
is that many parts of your brain when you dream light up.
4
SPEAKER_00
The visual areas at the back of the brain, the motor strip areas across the top of the brain, the emotional centers, and the memory centers, all of these things light up.
4
SPEAKER_00
And some of them, in fact, are up to 30% more active when you re in dream sleep than when you re awake, which in some ways is fascinating.
4
SPEAKER_00
But the one part of your brain that goes in the opposite direction is something called your prefrontal cortex.
4
SPEAKER_00
And this is sort of, you know, it s like the CEO of the brain.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s very good at making high-level, top-down executive control decisions and communication.
4
SPEAKER_00
That part of the brain, as we go into dream sleep, is actively inhibited.
4
SPEAKER_00
So your rational, logical brain is shut down.
4
SPEAKER_00
and all of these emotional and memory centers light up, no wonder dreams are bizarre, illogical, hyper-associative, filled with memories, filled with visual aspects, often have kinesthetic aspects to them.
4
SPEAKER_00
But what we ve realized is that the difference between dreaming and lucid dreaming is that that prefrontal cortex part of the brain
4
SPEAKER_00
actually comes back online as we become lucid.
4
SPEAKER_00
In other words, as we gain volitional control over what we dream, the prefrontal cortex seems to be coming back online, gifting you that volition to do what you wish in your dreams.
4
SPEAKER_01
I ve had, I don t know, maybe a handful of times where I ve had this dream where I wake up, my eyes are still asleep, but I m awake.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then I open my eyes, but I feel paralyzed.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I feel like I m screaming, yet nothing s coming out.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I can t move my arms, and I m like, am I paralyzed?
4
SPEAKER_01
And then eventually, like, something comes out of my mouth, and I can move.
4
SPEAKER_01
But it always feels very weird.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s like paralysis.
4
SPEAKER_00
I don t know if that s- And what it s called is sleep paralysis.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s a very well-known thing.
4
SPEAKER_00
And normally what happens to all of us, as we re, so REM sleep,
4
SPEAKER_00
and non-REM sleep, as I said, will go in this 90-minute cycle.
4
SPEAKER_00
But what s interesting is that in the first half of the night, that s when you get most of your deep non-REM sleep, and you don t get very much REM sleep.
4
SPEAKER_00
In the second half of the night, that s when the seesaw balance shifts, and now you get much more of your dream sleep, in those last few hours especially.
4
SPEAKER_00
And normally, as we re waking up out of sleep, and therefore typically REM sleep, and therefore typically dreaming, the brain has this beautiful synchrony, this lockstep of increasing consciousness into wakefulness, and increasing release of that brain-body paralysis, so that as you are regaining waking mental life, your body is released from its physical lockdown, from physical incarceration.
4
SPEAKER_00
However, there are times when one leads too far in front of the other, and it s called sleep paralysis, and you ve experienced it.
4
SPEAKER_00
I ve experienced it too.
4
SPEAKER_00
It can often happen when we re under levels of high stress or we re typically sleep deprived.
4
SPEAKER_00
And at that point you become a pseudo-aware, you re sort of in this mixed state of consciousness.
4
SPEAKER_00
You re between the worlds of wake and sleep, as it were.
4
SPEAKER_00
But your body is still in the paralysis.
4
SPEAKER_00
So you can t lift your eyelids.
4
SPEAKER_00
Why?
4
SPEAKER_00
Voluntary skeletal muscles.
4
SPEAKER_00
You can t shout out.
4
SPEAKER_00
Why?
4
SPEAKER_00
Voluntary skeletal muscles.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it s often paired with a sense, understandably so, of dread and fear, and a presence of someone else being there.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it turns out that this phenomenon called sleep paralysis accurately explains most, if not all, of so-called alien abductions.
4
SPEAKER_00
Because when you, you know, when was the last time you heard on the news an alien abduction story that happened in the middle of the day?
4
SPEAKER_00
And, you know, people were outside at lunchtime with friends at work, you know.
5
SPEAKER_01
eating their sandwiches and then all of a sudden they heard this sound whoosh and it s like my goodness you know did you see that Tommy was just abducted by alien you know it never happens like that it s usually at night you re usually by yourself you describe a presence or a sense in the room you say that they injected you with some kind of paralyzing agent you tried to fight back but you couldn t
5
SPEAKER_01
It s sleep paralysis.
5
SPEAKER_00
Sleep paralysis, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
Right.
5
SPEAKER_01
Now, by the way, it s not necessarily something to be worried about if you have it.
5
SPEAKER_01
It seems to be somewhat normal.
5
SPEAKER_01
About 25% of the population will experience it.
5
SPEAKER_01
In other words, it s as common as hiccups.
5
SPEAKER_01
But just be aware that there s nothing wrong with you and it s not that you re being visited by anything strange or there have been some kind of worries in religious sort of domains that you require some kind of, you know, exorcism or there s sort of a long history of that in the past.
5
SPEAKER_01
We understand the biology.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s a basic science fact and it s largely normal.
5
SPEAKER_00
So when someone experiences it, what should they do?
5
SPEAKER_00
Just try to maintain calm and just wait for the body to wake up naturally and
5
SPEAKER_01
That s exactly right.
5
SPEAKER_01
You will come out of it and try to, if you can, having heard this, understand what s going on.
5
SPEAKER_01
Sometimes even I don t recognize what s going on when it s going on, despite knowing what I know.
5
SPEAKER_01
But gradually I get to the place where I realize what s happening and then I just relax and I say,
5
SPEAKER_01
I m just going to give it time, and I may fall back asleep, or I may continue with my, you know, runway jet propulsion, and I hit escape velocity of both consciousness and physical paralysis, and it will be just fine.
5
SPEAKER_01
But it s very disconcerting.
5
SPEAKER_01
It really is a very strange view.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s scary, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
It s very scary.
5
SPEAKER_01
Very scary.
5
SPEAKER_00
What s the science talk about with promontory dreams?
5
SPEAKER_00
And is there any research on this of people able to kind of predict the future and have these dreams that then come true later in life or things like that?
5
SPEAKER_00
Is there science and research on this?
5
SPEAKER_01
There s some very interesting data where people have called, let s say, emergency services or FBI or police to say, look, I had this dream that there was a plane that was going to undergo some kind of malicious attack.
5
SPEAKER_01
And it was this particular airline.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then the next day, something actually happens on that specific airline.
5
SPEAKER_01
And you think,
5
SPEAKER_01
Okay, surely this is real.
5
SPEAKER_01
Not so.
5
SPEAKER_01
So let s just play the statistics game.
5
SPEAKER_01
So you probably go through three or four or usually about four to five cycles of dream sleep a night.
5
SPEAKER_01
And let s just assume that you only have one dream for each one of those cycles.
5
SPEAKER_01
You usually have more, but let s just assume that.
5
SPEAKER_01
So you re going to have five dreams per night.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then that s, you know, six, five, six, whatever the recent count is, seven billion people.
5
SPEAKER_01
in across the planet having 7 billion times 5 dreams per night.
5
SPEAKER_01
The statistical law of predictable averages would absolutely confirm that someone somewhere is going to have a dream that mimics something that happens the next day.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s just chance.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s just statistics working the way that they do.
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And of course, when we hear it, as I first described it, you think, that has to be real.
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But when you apply scientific rationale to the problem, you realize, in fact, there should be many more of those things than are reported based on statistical chance alone.
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SPEAKER_00
Interesting, so there s no science that backs that people can have dreams and they can predict events or things that happen in their future.
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There s no future forecasting that comes by way of dreams, no.
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Really?
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Interesting, okay.
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What is the... Well, not that we have of yet.
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As a scientist, you always have to take that mentality.
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I think it s very important that scientists should never forget the following truth.
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
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So it s potentially possible, we just don t have evidence scientifically that backs it.
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Yeah, right now all I can do is operate in the realm of rational fact and on that basis I can tell you we have no supportive evidence.
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Have you studied any quantum physics or done any research with quantum physics and dreams and how any of that plays in?
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thinking a positive thought and then in the dream creating it and then manifesting your life.
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Has any of that kind of weirdness come to you or that you ve seen?
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So we ve done a little bit of this that touches on the topic.
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And what we ve tried to do is, for example, manipulate people s emotions before sleep.
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So firstly, what we know is that your emotional and mental health are very intimately related to your sleep health, and it s bi-directional.
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And so, oh, I forgot to speak about the second benefit of dreaming, but we ll come back to that, which is creativity and memory and sort of problem solving and insight solving.
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But with emotions, it works both ways.
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So if you manipulate people s mood during the day, or particularly during the last hour before bed, mood and emotions will have an impact on your sleep.
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and then conversely how well you ve slept will change how emotionally reactive and pendulum-like and emotionally irrational you are the following day.
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So to come to your point we have, which is sort of manifesting positive mindset or mood,
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if we do a negative mood induction before sleep, and we get people to say, focus on something that was really difficult in your life, think about it, increase that sadness, it has a deleterious impact on sleep.
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Whereas cultivating a positive mood before bedtime actually improves the quality of their sleep, what we call their sleep efficiency.
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And so that s about as far as we ve got in terms of
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you know, augmenting or changing your waking state before sleep to see if it can have either a beneficial enhancement or a blast radius consequence on your subsequent sleep at night.
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And then we ve done the opposite.
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We ve manipulated your sleep at night and then looked at how you become emotionally unhinged the next day, as it were.
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And that should be no surprise for a parent.
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I don t have children, but it s often that idea of a parent holding a child, the child is crying, and they look at you and they say, they just didn t sleep well last night.
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As if there s some universal parental knowledge that bad sleep the night before equals bad mood and emotional reactivity the next day.
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The same is true for healthy adults.
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Yeah, exactly.
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Have you ever heard about people that can have a dream and then connect with someone else in their dream and actually have like a conversation or share dream experiences?
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Is that a possibility?
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I m throwing out some weirdness here.
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I m just curious if this is any, any studies of this or any research done where it s like, okay, me and you, we re going to try to find each other in a dream and experience the dream together.
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Is that even possible?
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We ve got no good evidence for that again, but the thing is, I don t think, I don t know of anyone who s actually tried to study that.
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We re only now just trying to study cooperative brain activity in waking people.
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So normally the way that we do experiments in brain science is that we will put people inside of a brain scanner and we ll do lots of different things with them and we ll try to understand how their brain is accomplishing those things.
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Only recently, because of expense in part and practicality, if you get two brain scanners in one room, you know, next to the other, and then you put two people in those brain scanners, and you have them cooperate and perform at the same time, let s say they re doing some kind of cooperative gameplay, or they re going through the same emotional experience, can you see similar coordinated brain activity that s going on?
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Does that mean that they are psychically or physically, you know, bonded through some connection that we can t see?
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Probably not.
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It just means that when two brains are doing the same thing at the same time, they express the same pattern of signature activity.
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But it s much more difficult to try to do that experiment with dreaming because most people can t coordinate.
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It s hard for us to control what one person is dreaming about, let alone coordinate the co-experience of two people at the same time and be measuring.
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their brain activity?
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So it s just a very difficult question, and I suspect probably not.
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I suspect most organisms, including humans, will retreat to a solo location, and sleep is typically, as a dream conscious experience, a unique individual experience.
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It s where we, if anything, stop processing external worlds and external events and people
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and we start to focus internally on the information that we ve gathered during that day, and start to ask, based on everything that I ve learned today, how does it fit into all of my back catalogue of autobiographical experience?
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And this is where we come to the second benefit of DreamSleep.
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which is that dreaming is a form of almost, it s informational alchemy.
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Dreaming is a little bit like group therapy for memories.
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That sleep gathers in all of this information and in this wonderful, bizarre theater that we call dreaming at night, it starts to collide different pieces of information together and starts to test whether they should be connected.
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But it s not an obvious logical connection.
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It s not when you re awake, you do a Google search gone right, which is your brain calculates the associations and it puts you on page one.
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When we re dreaming, it does the opposite.
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It takes you straight to page 20, which is some hyper associative crazy link.
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But I think that that s important because it s two different modes of processing, logical, convergent, rational, versus illogical, divergent, irrational.
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And when you do that type of hyper-associative processing, you start to see patterns that you can t see while you re awake.
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And what we ve discovered is that the second benefit of dreaming is creativity.
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that you go to sleep with the pieces of the jigsaw, but you wake up with the puzzle complete.
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And it s the reason that no one has ever told you to stay awake on a problem.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, they say sleep on it.
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Correct.
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Sleep on it.
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Before you make a decision, sleep on it.
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That s right, yeah.
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Both from the emotional standpoint, that it creates resolution so you re a more rational, balanced, emotional individual making the right choices, and also from an ingenuity perspective as well, from a creativity perspective.
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You know, we end up seeing solutions to previously impenetrable problems.
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Lots of anecdotal evidence for that in the sciences, in the arts, and in music, and then now in the laboratory we ve been able to replicate that same effect.
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I hope today s episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness.
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And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.
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And now it s time to go out there and do something great.