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Welcome to the School of Greatness.
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My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur.
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And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness.
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Thanks for spending some time with me today.
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Now let the class begin.
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Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness.
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Very excited about our guest.
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We have the inspiring Dr. Michael Greger in the house.
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Good to see you, sir.
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Oh, so glad to be here.
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Welcome.
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Welcome.
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This is exciting.
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This is exciting.
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Your research has been really out there in the mainstream a lot lately.
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A lot of documentaries.
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Your books have been blowing up.
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And the most recent one, How Not to Age, the scientific approach to getting healthier as you get older.
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I m really fascinated by because most people don t think they can actually get and improve their health the older they get.
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They just feel like they have to deal with chronic pain, illness, disease.
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They have to take medications to just maintain a level of ease.
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So is it actually possible to stop aging or even reverse aging with foods as we get older?
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Diet appears to be the most critical element, and that s really what the book is about, this kind of good news that we have tremendous power over our health destiny and longevity.
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The vast majority of premature death and disability is preventable with a healthy enough diet and lifestyle.
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Really?
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Only about 25 percent, based on studies of identical twins, only about 25 percent of the difference in lifespan between people is due to genetics.
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Really?
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So, for what we can do over the majority of which we have some control, we can look to, for example, you know, these blue zones, these areas around the world with exceptional longevity and kind of look at the Venn diagram and what they re all doing.
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According to the Global Burden of Disease Study, the largest systemic analysis of risk factors in history, the No.
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1 cause of death in these United States is the American diet.
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Really?
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Bumping tobacco, smoking to No.
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2, cigarettes now only kill about a half million Americans every year or worse.
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Our diet kills many more.
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Come on.
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But that s good news, because that means we have the power.
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It s never too late to start eating healthier, to stop smoking, to start moving.
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So, I mean, it s really a positive message that I was excited to learn when I finished the book.
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So, when we change our lifestyle, when we change our eating habits and our nutritional habits, we can actually reverse our aging or age better, is what I m hearing you say.
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We can age slower.
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edge slower.
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Okay.
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And because aging is a significant risk factor for most of our leading killers, you know, so my first book in the series, How Not to Die, was, you know, first out of the books, just 15 chapters, each of the 15 leading causes of death, talking about the world diet.
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may play in preventing, arresting, or reversing each of our top 15 killers.
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You say, wait a second, if death is from disease, why isn t how not to die kind of all the longevity book anybody needs?
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But it s because aging is a risk factor for multiple different diseases.
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So for example, if all cancer were cured tomorrow,
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it would only add about 3 years to the average lifespan.
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Wait a second, why is that?
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It s like our second leading killer.
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It s because if you don t die of one age-related disease, you ll just die of another one.
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So, the only reason you didn t die of a heart attack, ah, because you died of cancer the month before, but you were going to die anyway from something else.
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So, by slowing down the aging process,
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then we can reduce the risk of many different diseases at the same time— the stroke and dementia and cancer, heart disease, which rise exponentially with age.
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So, something like having a high cholesterol can increase your odds of having a heart attack, our number one killer of men and women, by as much as 20-fold.
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But an 80-year-old
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has 500 times the risk of having a heart attack compared to a 20-year-old.
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But, of course, the reason we focus on things like cholesterol is because it s a modifiable risk factor.
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But what if the rate of aging were modifiable, too?
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And so that s what I really cover in the book.
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So what would the five main keys be to aging better?
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Diet number one.
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And so, if you look at these blue zones, they all center their diets around whole plant foods.
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So, they re minimizing the intake of meat, dairy, sugar, eggs, junk, maximizing the intake of fruits, vegetables, legumes, beans, split peas, chickpeas, lentils, nuts and seeds, herbs and spices, basically real food that grows out of the ground.
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These really are our healthiest choices.
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That would be number one.
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Number one, diet.
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So number one, diet.
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So that accounts alone for about half of the difference in life span between blue zones and the rest of the world.
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What is the average blue zone age at death versus the average...
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you know, age of death of non-blue zones.
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Right.
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It s about 12 to 14 years.
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12 to 14 years difference.
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Difference.
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So women 14, men 12 years longer, and so have up to 10 times the rate of so-called centenarians, those that get triple digits, live to be 100 or older.
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And it s not just about adding years to your life, but life to your years.
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These people are active.
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So they re at 100 and they re enjoying their lives or participating in life.
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And so what s the point of living longer if you can t do it with vibrancy, with vitality, right?
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And so in this country,
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I mean, even our lifespan is going down.
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So, actually, the peak of life expectancy, 2014, in the United States, started going down every year since, even before COVID shaved a few years off our lifespan.
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Now, there s certain pockets that are blue zone pockets.
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Right, but in general, and it s because primarily the obesity epidemic.
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So, we are raising
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the first generation of Americans set to live shorter average lives than their parents, right?
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And this was before COVID.
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It continues to drop down.
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We are 39th in life expectancy around the world.
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So like Slovenians live longer than Americans.
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So, we ve got a lot of work to do, but the good news is, again, we have power over how we live and what we eat.
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So, diet would be the main thing.
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What would be the second or third thing, would you think?
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Okay, and so then, smoking cessation, critically important.
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Now, what else?
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Smoking versus vaping.
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Ah, well, the concern, the primary concern about vaping is the nicotine addiction will lead people to smoke.
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And so it s safer than smoking, but because people who vape tend to smoke, that unfortunately, you know, these kids getting addicted to nicotine can face a lifetime of cigarette addiction and then dramatically cut their life short from something like lung cancer or COPD.
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So smoking?
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So, so yeah, so it s really,
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Remarkably, you know, 80% of the way there is the simple, basic, common sense lifestyle behaviors.
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I know it s a big book.
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I go into all the details.
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Don t want people to get kind of lost in this, you know, or intimidated.
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It s really the basic.
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So, you know, a decade of life.
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It s possible just through not smoking, not being obese, exercising, even, like, 20 minutes a day, 5 servings of fruits and vegetables, really basic stuff.
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Now, you want to go beyond that, you want to tweak those 20 percent, I ve got, you know, hundreds of cool things you can do in the book, but let s not lose sight of the real core tenants.
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So, you can imagine some smoker who s like, oh, look at this fancy supplement I m going to take.
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I m like, no, no, no, let s back up.
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It s not going to minimize the smoking.
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Right, right.
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So that s important to emphasize.
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In fact, the conclusion of the book, I m like, all right, let s touch back.
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Let s put this all in context again.
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It s really the core, tasting, basic tenants.
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And then, yeah, there s all sorts of cool new science out there that you can tweak around the edges, but I don t want people to get lost, really.
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Wow, wow, okay.
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And what about fasting?
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Because you mentioned fasting briefly, and I know you have a section in the book about intermittent fasting and fasting, but also I think there was a quote in your book that s, you know, fasting can have benefits, but if you fast too long, you die.
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It s the ultimate in unsustainable diet, meaning guaranteed to kill you if you do it long enough.
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You can t say that about any diet, right?
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So there s all sorts of interesting intermittent fasting regimens.
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So one thing that fasting does is...
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boost something called autophagy, which is kind of this house-cleaning process within the cells.
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Killing the zombied cells, right?
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Oh, that s a separate, that s cellular senescence.
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That s a whole separate thing, but this is more inside the cell, the accumulation of debris that contributes to the aging process, and we can boost autophagy with
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exercise or with fasting.
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We can fast or go fast.
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Unfortunately, it doesn t really ramp up until 36 to 48 hours of fasting, which really is too long to go unsupervised.
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Normally, your kidneys dive into something called sodium conservation mode, such that people can fast literally for months on water only.
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But if that response breaks down,
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then you can suffer a serious electrolyte abnormality, which only manifests with vague symptoms like dizziness or fatigue that could go unnoticed until it s too late.
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So that s why one really should only fast, if you re fasting over a day, it really should be done under medical supervision.
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They can do urine tests, they can do blood tests, just to make sure everything s going to plan.
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Otherwise, you can run into really serious stress.
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Do you feel like doing a 24-hour fast is okay for people to do on their own?
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So, although we re not going to get that boost in autophagy in that short of a time, and you often hear, like, even a few hours, like, time-restricted feeding, you know, decreasing the feed in window daily, we can improve autophagy.
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That s in rodents.
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Unfortunately, rodents have these really high metabolisms such that they can lose massive amounts of their body weight in literally a day or two.
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In a few days, it can be fatal.
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But unfortunately, that doesn t translate into humans.
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We really only get this boosting in autophagy.
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Really, kind of, yeah, two days.
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And then we re concerned about that being done outside of kind of medical supervision.
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Interesting.
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Is there benefit to doing the intermittent fasting, would you say?
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Okay, so, but there is some, certainly, there s so many different types.
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I m talking about the pros and cons of each.
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So, there s alternate day fasting, and 5-2 fasting, 5-5 fasting, mimic fasting.
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Mimic fasting, yeah, yeah.
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Right, all that, there s all sorts of, and there s pros and cons of each.
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I think the best, kind of the bottom line, the best evidence is around early time-restricted feeding, meaning
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collapsing one s daily feeding window to at least 12 hours or less, but critically important, that window was early rather than late.
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So if anything, we re skipping supper, not breakfast.
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In fact, we re trying to cram as many calories earlier in the day as possible.
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The exact same food eaten in the morning is less fattening than the exact same food, same number of calories eaten in the evening.
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Causes less of a blood sugar spike, causes less triglycerides.
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If you re gonna eat junk,
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If you re going to eat a donut or something, do it in the morning.
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Actually, your body, because of our circadian rhythms, is better able to handle it.
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Ideally, we should not be eating when it s dark, should not be eating after 7 p.m.
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Our body just has these exaggerated responses to it, or at the very least, we should be eating really healthy food.
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And so, ideally, breakfast or lunch would be the biggest meal of the day and may actually help explain the longevity of the final remaining blue zone today.
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There s only one left.
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We think of these blue zones.
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These are historical things.
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Right.
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But these are historic blue zones.
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Now they re eating KFC like anybody else.
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Right.
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But there s one left, and it s the red, white, and blue zone.
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It s the only one.
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Loma Linda?
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It s Loma Linda, California.
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Really?
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An hour away.
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A seven-day Adventist.
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And one of the things that may be attributing to their longevity, in fact, they re the longest formerly studied population, longest living in history, living longer than the Okinawan Japanese, even during the 50s when they were at the peak.
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The Sardinians, all of them.
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They beat them all, and they re the only ones continuing to go.
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And one of the things they may be doing is because they tend to eat lunch as their biggest meal of the day.
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So they don t have a big dinner.
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So they don t have a big dinner.
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Or they skip dinner all entirely.
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I mean, they have lots of other things going for them.
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Maybe they have here or there, but not.
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So their body is, they consider their body a temple, it s kind of a biblical teaching.
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So they have low smoking rates, they exercise, they tend to have plant-based diets.
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So they re doing a lot of things right.
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Community, all the things, yeah.
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But that may actually be one of the factors, even though it s never been kind of put to the test in an interventional trial.
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Based on the studies, they re not eating a lot of dinners, is what I m hearing.
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They re eating either light dinners, or they re not eating dinner at all.
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Or they re doing it before seven.
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Or they re doing it before four.
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Really?
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Before four, yeah.
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What would be the optimal time to stop eating every single day?
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Well, so before seven.
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We want to get before seven.
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And so that s, I mean, the intermittent fasting literature around time-restricted feeding was so confusing because some studies show it s actually bad for you, cause the metabolic issues.
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Others found it had these remarkable benefits, and it s all in the timing of the window.
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The ones that were late-restricting, skipping breakfast, and not eating till late,
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then they had actually problems associated.
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And, you know, with that higher cholesterol at the end of a few weeks.
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Because if you re skipping breakfast and you re, say, you re eating at 1 or 2 o clock, but then you re like, you re hungry, and so you re eating more later in the evening until 9, 10 o clock maybe.
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That s exactly the opposite that we want to be doing.
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But you re still getting that maybe 16-hour window of not eating.
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Right.
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But you re saying that the time you eat is more important than how much time you don t eat.
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There s benefits to both.
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Yes.
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So you can.
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So just by time restricting feeding.
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So even if you do it kind of in the middle, there s benefits from not time restricting, but there s additional benefits switching to skipping dinner.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And that was actually the U.S.
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military did these experiments.
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The Army did the first experiments where they actually took people and gave people 2,000 calorie meals, a single 2,000 calorie meal, the exact same meal, either as breakfast and fasting the rest of the day or as supper.
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And they found these remarkable differences.
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The exact same food, exact same calories, different amount of body fat, different amount of metabolic implications of just that single twig.
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It s because of
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chronobiology, the remarkable impact that our circadian rhythms have on our biology.
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We typically only think of our circadian rhythms when we re jet-lagged.
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Like, that s the only time we re even thinking about, you know, our bodies.
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But that s just kind of a symptom of this really deep underlying— most of our biological processes, our biochemistry, our enzymes actually go on this clock.
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And so, it really matters.
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There s this really
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devastating literature about pesticide suicides.
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In India, that s a common way for people to commit suicide, but it matters whether they survive, whether they do it in the morning or in the evening, because their body s better able to handle it in the morning, better able to detoxify
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because of our circadian rhythms, you re much more likely to survive a poisoning attempt.
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Wow.
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And that s just how powerful, it just suggests the power of our circadian rhythms.
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Really fascinating.
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I dive deep in my How Not to Diet book where I was talking about weight loss, and that entire field, fascinating.
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Never learned about it in medical school.
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Wow.
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Now for those that don t know, what is the circadian rhythm and what do we need to know about it to optimize our life?
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Yeah, so our circadian rhythm is the kind of daily rhythm, almost 24-hour rhythm that, so even if you re put in a bunker with constant lighting, your body will still, you ll have this cycle as if you were, even though you have no cues from the outside, you have no watch, you have no idea what time it is,
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you ll start getting sleepy at kind of the same time you normally get sleepy.
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You wake up about the same time you normally sleep.
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But in that kind of environment, you can do these laboratory experiments on people where it s like, OK, what if we put you on a 27-hour cycle?
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So we put the lights on, right?
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But then we just stretch it a little bit, and it totally messes people up.
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Wow.
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It really undercuts our biology.
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We were so meant to, because then all of a sudden, it s chopping it through.
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And so it was these kind of experiments that really showed
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power.
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And so what we see is we see these shift workers.
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So people working late nights.
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Right.
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So, well, if you re only working late nights, that that s a problem in and of itself.
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But it s the it s the people that are shifting.
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So they re doing the late nights.
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So like, you know, people in postgraduate medical training, these residents who will do nights in the hospital.
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and then they ll do a day, and that is really difficult.
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And so... Like a double shift.
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Double shift.
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So there could be many reasons why people that do that kind of work live significantly shortened lives.
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Wow.
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I mean, there s, you know, who is forced into those kind of jobs, what kind of, you know, healthcare do they have, socioeconomic status.
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Stress, other things.
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There s so many other things that can go into that.
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But they really do think that that disruption of circadian rhythm has serious implications.
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If you could design the perfect day and the perfect amount of protein, calories, consumption, sleep, intermittent fasting window, et cetera, for someone like me, I m 230 pounds.
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I m 40 years old.
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I was a former athlete.
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I train really hard.
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I m at the gym lifting four or five days a week.
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I m doing cardio.
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I m doing some running.
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I m walking a lot.
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But I also have a busy lifestyle.
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I travel sometimes.
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What would be the optimal, if I could, for me to live longer, still be athletic and strong and healthy, and feel great?
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Yeah, so that was, you know, I talked about this How Not to Die book, the first half of the book, but I didn t want it to just kind of be a reference book.
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I wanted this to be a practical day-to-day kind of grocery store kind of guide to make these kind of practical decisions.
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And that s what became the second half of the book, which centers my recommendations around a daily dozen checklist of all that kind of healthiest of healthy foods and habits.
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I encourage people to fit into their daily routine.
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So it s available on a free app.
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All my work is free at
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There s Daily Dozen, iPhone, Android.
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And it s just basically, you know, these are kind of to inspire people to include.
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So, you know, and 12 things that we should be doing every day.
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So, you know, 90 minutes of moderate intensity exercise or 45 minutes of vigorous exercise every single day.
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You know, how much, you know, how much to drink.
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So I want people to eat dark green leafy vegetables every day, the healthiest kind of vegetables.
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I want people to eat berries every day, the healthiest kinds of fruits, a tablespoon of ground flaxseed, a quarter teaspoon of turmeric, kind of on down the list.
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Again, just to kind of inspire people to kind of think, and then kind of track their progress, kind of make a game out of it.
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And look, on the road, I m not even hitting, you know, I m lucky if I hit half.
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But, I mean, it s just, again, kind of an aspirational kind of, if you really did have control over your environment, this is really the kind of things we want to include in one s daily routine.
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So what would be the top five foods that you should eat every day to age longer?
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Yeah, in terms of anti-aging foods, this Global Burden of Disease study, which I mentioned before, again, the largest systemic analysis funded by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, found that the food associated with the largest expected life expectancy gains
2
SPEAKER_00
are legumes, these bean split peas, chickpeas, lentils.
2
SPEAKER_00
In fact, one thing we can do is boost our intake of beans or lentil soup or hummus, and we think it s because they re the most concentrated sources of prebiotics, the resistant starch and dietary fiber that feeds the good bacteria in our gut.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that has implications for decreasing inflammation, improving our immunity, improving muscle strength, muscle quality, muscle mass in frail individuals, all just by changing our microbiome.
2
SPEAKER_00
In fact, you can do these so-called fecal transplant studies where you take a healthy poop and put it in a sick person.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s crazy, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
And you can actually change their biology.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s crazy.
2
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely, Chris, but that s how we can prove cause and effect, because, like, well, yeah, you feed someone a healthy diet, how do we know their gut bugs have anything to do with it?
2
SPEAKER_00
Ah, well, we can control for that, and you can do it, you know, and so they, right, so you can make, you know, mice more fit, less fit by giving them, you know... Healthy poop.
2
SPEAKER_00
healthy poop from an exercising mouse or a marathon mouse or a mighty mouse versus the frail mouse, so you can actually change.
2
SPEAKER_00
They re eating the same, they re doing the exact same, but they just have a different stool composition.
2
SPEAKER_00
And how do you get those good gut bugs?
2
SPEAKER_00
You feed them the right food, and that s the prebiotics.
2
SPEAKER_00
What are good gut bacteria eat?
2
SPEAKER_00
A lot of people are thinking probiotics.
2
SPEAKER_00
They re thinking the actual bacteria themselves, the acidophilus, the bifidobacteria.
2
SPEAKER_00
Those are the good gut bugs.
2
SPEAKER_00
But if you just take those pills, the reason you don t have those good gut bugs in the first place is because you re not feeding them very well.
2
SPEAKER_00
So, you can try to populate your gut with as many good bugs as you want.
2
SPEAKER_00
They re going to die off if you continue to starve them, continue to starve your microbial self.
2
SPEAKER_00
Whereas, if you just ate the right foods—the good gut bugs are fiber feeders—if you eat the right foods,
2
SPEAKER_00
then your good bugs will be fruitful and multiply all on their own and, you know, do all the work for you.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that work is creating these so-called postbiotics, which are their byproducts of microbial metabolism of these good foods, like butyrate and acetate, they could absorb through the colon wall
2
SPEAKER_00
into our bloodstream, circulate throughout our bodies, even cross the blood-brain barrier, have effects on our mental health, our immunity, so dramatically decrease inflammation.
2
SPEAKER_00
You can prevent asthma attacks just by feeding people some beans.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, it s absolutely remarkable.
2
SPEAKER_00
So legumes have prebiotics.
2
SPEAKER_00
They have the prebiotics.
2
SPEAKER_00
So that s why we think the food, in fact, legumes are the primary protein source of every single blue zone ever documented.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s where they get most of their protein, from some sort of legume, whether it s brown peas or something, or black beans in Costa Rica, or with soy foods in Okinawa.
2
SPEAKER_00
But it was always centered around, not just plant-based in general, but a plant-based source of protein, the legumes.
2
SPEAKER_00
So beans, and so we should be thinking like bean burrito, chili, like how can I fit beans in my daily diet?
2
SPEAKER_00
And that s part of the daily dozen is like, do I have any beans today?
2
SPEAKER_00
Like can I put beans on my salad or throw some beans on this pasta dish?
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s like simply get a can of unsalted, no salt added beans, open in two seconds.
2
SPEAKER_00
Always keep a can of beans in the fridge.
2
SPEAKER_00
You can just throw a spoonful onto anything basically.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, in fact, someone at a talk was like, I just take white beans mashed into my oatmeal.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m like, never heard of that.
2
SPEAKER_00
But he s like, can t even taste it.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m like, okay, yeah, great.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, look, you know, and what s nice about a healthy breakfast is that regardless of what you do the rest of the day, you know, God knows what kind of, you know,
2
SPEAKER_00
what bowl of candy is on your co-worker s desk, or what donut shop you re walking by, or God knows what stress is gonna, you know, take you down the wrong path.
2
SPEAKER_00
At least you have a good foundation, you got food in you, you know, if you re eating good, we got bucks.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, anyway, so that s number one on the list.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, number one, legumes.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, now, so these are, they identified the top five foods that associate with the longest lifespan.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now, legumes rule the roost on a per-serving basis, but actually on an ounce-per-ounce basis, nuts.
2
SPEAKER_00
are associated with the longest lifespan compared to any other type of food out there.
2
SPEAKER_00
What are the three best nuts?
2
SPEAKER_00
There s really only one.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s really only one that pulls ahead, and that s walnuts.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now, see, normally, when I say, like, you know, eat, you know, cruciferous vegetables or something, they re like, which one s best?
2
SPEAKER_00
I m like, whichever one you ll eat.
2
SPEAKER_00
You like broccoli, eat broccoli.
2
SPEAKER_00
You like bok choy, eat bok choy.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, you know, look, whatever one you ll get into your face, that s it.
2
SPEAKER_00
But with nuts, it really does.
2
SPEAKER_00
Walnuts really do pull ahead.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that s because they have more omega-3s than other nuts.
2
SPEAKER_00
They have more antioxidants than other nuts.
2
SPEAKER_00
And they re the only nuts shown to acutely improve artery function within a matter of hours.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so, in fact, in the PREDIMED study, which is this large, randomized, controlled trial over years of thousands of individuals, although mixed nuts certainly did lower cardiovascular disease rates, it was the walnuts that appeared to be the most critical part.
2
SPEAKER_00
And we do want to get unsalted nuts.
2
SPEAKER_00
I know that s not as delicious.
2
SPEAKER_00
Unsalted.
2
SPEAKER_00
Why unsalted?
2
SPEAKER_00
In terms of dietary risk factor for death, excess sodium intake is the way.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I ve been talking about all this.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh man, but salt is so good.
2
SPEAKER_00
It tastes so good on something.
2
SPEAKER_00
I know, I know.
2
SPEAKER_00
Look, so in terms of things we re missing out on, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
It s the legumes, but in terms of stuff we re getting too much of?
2
SPEAKER_00
Salt.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s lots of horrible things in our diet.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s sugar, there s trans fat, there s saturated.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
But sodium salt intake is the number one dietary risk factor for death on planet Earth.
2
SPEAKER_00
It is the single worst thing about humanity s diet, but there s good news.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s good news.
2
SPEAKER_00
What about like Himalayan salt or something?
2
SPEAKER_00
I know, I know.
2
SPEAKER_00
They re all salts of the same, huh?
2
SPEAKER_00
I know, I know.
2
SPEAKER_00
But this is pink.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is from the Himalayas.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is rainbow color.
2
SPEAKER_00
This has got a few minerals in it or something.
2
SPEAKER_00
No, no, no, no.
2
SPEAKER_00
No, it s all bad.
2
SPEAKER_00
But a little bit?
2
SPEAKER_00
Can you have a little bit?
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, so we want to stick under 1,500 milligrams a day.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s the American Heart Association recommendation.
2
SPEAKER_00
And to do that, and most of it, and people are like, I don t add a lot of salt.
2
SPEAKER_00
Most of our sodium intake comes from processed foods.
2
SPEAKER_00
70% of sodium intake is not the salt we add in the kitchen or the dining room.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s in these processed foods.
2
SPEAKER_00
These, you know, anything in a box, in a package, in anything, they add salt because it s cheap.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s a flavor enhancer, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
In fact, that s why they add it to a lot of beans.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s not a preservative.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s in a can.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s sterile.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s because they want to make things taste good.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s the cheap way to make things, you know, so you can t just eat one.
2
SPEAKER_00
But the problem is, is that sodium increases risk not just of high blood pressure,
2
SPEAKER_00
but so many different leading killers like kidney disease and I say kind of on down the list.
2
SPEAKER_00
OK, but so there s two ways we can go.
2
SPEAKER_00
So there s lots of salt free seasonings out there and, you know, an encouragement to explore all sorts of new, you know, and, you know, people often, you know, there s all sorts of spices that I haven t even heard of like saffron.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I mean, there s also so explore the whole world out there and find some delicious taste.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then the easy fix.
2
SPEAKER_00
is switching to the salt substitute potassium salt.
2
SPEAKER_00
Instead of sodium salt, sodium chloride, switched to potassium salt, which is potassium chloride.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s just a natural mineral mined out of the ground just like sodium chloride is.
2
SPEAKER_00
And there are interventional studies.
2
SPEAKER_00
I talk about one in the book where they took these five kitchens at a veteran retirement home and randomized their kitchens into either continuing to salt with regular salt in the kitchen or
2
SPEAKER_00
switching to a 50-50 blend of regular sodium chloride and potassium chloride.
2
SPEAKER_00
And there was a tremendous 40% drop in cardiovascular disease death rates within a matter of years in the reduced sodium group.
2
SPEAKER_00
In fact, their life expectancy at age 70
2
SPEAKER_00
in between the two groups was 14 years.
2
SPEAKER_00
Meaning that just by switching to half potassium salt, for which you wouldn t even be able to taste the difference, they effectively made themselves 10 years younger when it came to the risk of premature death.
2
SPEAKER_00
So there s no downside.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m encouraging people to actually try to switch to full
3
SPEAKER_00
potassium salt rather than the 50-50 blend, but then you do actually taste the difference.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s this bitterness to potassium salt that you don t get otherwise.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s more apparent in some foods than others.
3
SPEAKER_00
Some foods you really can taste the difference, but any amount that we can cut down.
3
SPEAKER_00
And the only other caveat is you need to have kidneys good enough to get rid of the excess potassium.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so if you have kidney disease, or if you have diabetes, just because diabetes is such an increased risk of kidney disease, it s so damaging to the kidneys.
3
SPEAKER_00
Even if you don t know you have kidney disease, if you have diabetes, you should first get your kidneys tested before switching to potassium sulfate.
3
SPEAKER_00
And you know, if you re over 70, our kidney function does tend to decline over time.
3
SPEAKER_00
So even if, as far as you know, your kidneys are fine, if you re over 70, I would go, super simple test, you can just, simple blood test, get your kidney function tested, and just make sure your kidneys can handle the extra potassium.
3
SPEAKER_00
But then, if you give them the All Clear, your kidneys are good, then you can get all the saltiness you want.
3
SPEAKER_00
You can add extra, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
You can make your popcorn as crazy as that, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Tears to your eyes salty and with no harm.
3
SPEAKER_00
No harm.
3
SPEAKER_00
So that s one of the really, one of the simplest tweaks in the book.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s like the leading cause of dietary risk factor for death, like the worst thing we could possibly eat.
3
SPEAKER_00
and there s a simple fix to it like I m too bad there wasn t like a potassium donut or something we just switch over and totally fine but that was one of the rare things that s like
3
SPEAKER_01
Super easy to do.
3
SPEAKER_01
So explain that one more time.
3
SPEAKER_01
So if we have more potassium salt first, then we can have salt?
3
SPEAKER_01
No, we re going, so we re swapping out.
3
SPEAKER_00
So instead of shaking on sodium, sodium chloride, we re shaking on potassium chloride.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s a bunch of different brands.
3
SPEAKER_01
And you can have as much as you want.
3
SPEAKER_00
And you can have as much as long as your kidneys are okay.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay, gotcha.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right, you can have as much as you want.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so you can go any grocery store.
3
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
3
SPEAKER_00
In the salt aisle, there s all these salt substitutes.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m gonna look for this.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it says potassium chloride.
3
SPEAKER_00
And there s some 50-50 blends.
3
SPEAKER_00
If you want to start there and move, it s certainly better than adding pure sodium salt.
3
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m going to try that.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m going to try that.
3
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
3
SPEAKER_01
And the studies show.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, right.
3
SPEAKER_00
And not just it s associated with, but these interventional trials, these randomized control trials, blinded.
3
SPEAKER_00
They don t know who s in which group until they break the code at the end.
3
SPEAKER_00
And they say, oh, my God, significantly less death and disability in the group.
3
SPEAKER_00
Just cutting down on the sodium.
3
SPEAKER_00
Eating the same things.
3
SPEAKER_00
Eating the exact same things.
3
SPEAKER_00
One single tweak, just switching over what kind of salt they re using.
3
SPEAKER_00
Amazing!
3
SPEAKER_01
That s incredible.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now, why haven t we heard about this?
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, why isn t this on, like, Blairy?
3
SPEAKER_00
Because no one makes any money on it.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like dirt cheap, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I think it s more expensive than a regular saw, but I don t know.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like five bucks or something, yeah, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
But, I mean, there s just, no one s making money.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, there s just not a lot of money made, because it s just like a simple, like, you know, you d probably dig it up your own somehow.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so, there s just no, yeah, there s just not a lot of profit to be made.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so, unfortunately, we don t hear a lot about it.
3
SPEAKER_01
That is fascinating.
3
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so we ve heard about legumes, number one.
3
SPEAKER_01
Nuts, specifically walnuts, being number two.
3
SPEAKER_01
Palm full a day is my recommendation, so one ounce.
3
SPEAKER_00
What if you want to have more?
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, look, you can have more.
3
SPEAKER_00
They re calorie dense, too.
3
SPEAKER_00
But the longevity benefits plateau out at one.
3
SPEAKER_00
So you don t get more additional benefit, and they re kind of pricey, and they re calorie dense.
3
SPEAKER_00
So, if you re really active, it s not going to matter.
3
SPEAKER_01
So, 10 to 15 a day.
3
SPEAKER_00
So, it s ten halves.
3
SPEAKER_01
Ten halves.
3
SPEAKER_00
Ten halves comes out to be 30 grams or one ounce.
3
SPEAKER_00
So, that s, I mean, look, you re not counting.
3
SPEAKER_00
Just grab a handful.
3
SPEAKER_00
Grab a handful.
3
SPEAKER_00
And every day.
3
SPEAKER_00
Or at least three times a week.
3
SPEAKER_00
The benefits are that great.
3
SPEAKER_00
Are that great.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that s, in the Adventist cohort, the Loma Linda Adventist cohort, they think it accounts for two years of extra life span.
3
SPEAKER_00
Come on.
3
SPEAKER_00
It is one of the only foods, there s only two foods that have ever been associated with increase in literally years, plural, a single food.
3
SPEAKER_00
And nuts is one of them.
3
SPEAKER_01
How do they measure this, that know that nuts and beans are gonna make you live longer?
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so what you do is you take hundreds of thousands of people, you follow them, their diseases, and their diets over time.
3
SPEAKER_00
So you keep doing these dietary surveys, exactly what are you eating, you can do these random, call you up, okay, what d you eat in the last 24 hours, go through.
3
SPEAKER_00
Sometimes you make them take pictures.
3
SPEAKER_01
Sure, sure.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so you follow that.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then you follow exactly, you know their doctors, so you know when have they been diagnosed, what are they dying of, what do their autopsies show.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so you can follow them over time.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s what s called observational research or epidemiological research.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now you cannot prove cause and effect with that kind of research because there s confounding factors.
3
SPEAKER_00
Maybe the people who are eating nuts are health nuts.
3
SPEAKER_00
And maybe, you know, nut eaters are working out more.
3
SPEAKER_00
Maybe they have other, eating other healthy stuff.
3
SPEAKER_00
Maybe instead of, what s the other thing you re eating instead of nuts?
3
SPEAKER_00
Maybe you re snacking on some potato chips, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
And so maybe it s the benefit, it s not so much the nuts, but you re not eating potato chips, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
So there s all these confounding facts.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now there are statistical methods that you can use to try to control for that.
3
SPEAKER_00
So you re basically,
3
SPEAKER_00
uh comparing nut eaters who aren t smoking and exercise blah blah blah to nut eaters that the non-nut eaters that also don t smoke don t it and so there be and that s why you need this big number right right and so like the NIH AARP study the largest study in history we re talking over a half million people um and so with that that much data you can crunch the numbers and really kind of tease out wait a second
3
SPEAKER_00
with all these other factors controlled for, that people are eating this many nuts are living this much longer.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s pretty crazy.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then you can turn to the most powerful evidence we have, which are interventional trials, where you randomize people to two groups, and you give them a smoothie, one with nuts and one flavored with nuts, but no actual nuts in it.
3
SPEAKER_00
So you make people a walnut-flavored smoothie versus an actual walnut smoothie, and neither the researcher nor the experimental subjects actually knows which is which.
3
SPEAKER_00
And you test it beforehand, so you really can t tell, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
And then you can measure acute reactions.
3
SPEAKER_00
You can measure their artery function literally within hours of consumption.
3
SPEAKER_00
And you can see what s happening in their cholesterol, what s happening.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so these are called
3
SPEAKER_00
surrogate endpoints.
3
SPEAKER_00
So what we d like to know is let s randomize people to these smoothies for 10 years and see who actually dies and who doesn t.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right, right.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay, you can see how logistically that s difficult to do.
3
SPEAKER_00
But what we can do is we know that, you know, the amount of cholesterol in our blood is a really good indicator, a risk factor for, you know, heart disease.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so anything that lowers cholesterol, ah, okay, so we have the observational evidence showing
3
SPEAKER_00
Decreased risk of heart disease among non-eaters.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then we have this short-term data showing, look, it improves artery function, decreases cholesterol.
3
SPEAKER_00
No wonder we re seeing these endpoints in the absence.
3
SPEAKER_00
So you put all the evidence together, you re like, wow, nuts really appear to be healthy foods, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
That s how you do this kind of research.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s so fascinating.
3
SPEAKER_00
This is fascinating.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, yeah, good stuff.
3
SPEAKER_00
Good stuff.
3
SPEAKER_01
Okay, we re still on the five things to eat every day.
3
SPEAKER_00
Legumes, nuts, no salt.
3
SPEAKER_00
No salt.
3
SPEAKER_00
Unsalted, right.
3
SPEAKER_00
Unsalted.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, yeah, we re keeping our salt intake as low as possible, under 1,500 milligrams.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s not no salt, but... Right, right, very minimal.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s really... And mostly it s about... If you just avoid processed foods, you re going to go a long way there.
3
SPEAKER_00
Way less salt, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Way less, so eating fresh foods, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Number four and five, what would those be?
3
SPEAKER_00
And so then, it s eating more whole grains, so you re having an oatmeal for breakfast, right, instead of bacon and eggs.
3
SPEAKER_01
What about the whole, you know, grain-brain theory, and then, like, how grains are bad for your brain, or, you know, what type of grains affect the brain in a healthy way versus a bad way?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, the kernel of truth, which is kind of a little of a pun for whole grains, is refined grains.
3
SPEAKER_00
Refined grains are terrible for us.
3
SPEAKER_00
So when you take something like whole wheat and you strip away all the fiber, and you re left with, you know, with white flour, or you do the same with brown rice to white rice, or you kind of strip out the nutrition, and you re left with basically kind of sheer carbohydrates, or you can take something like a sugar beet, where most sugar comes from these days, actually not from cane,
3
SPEAKER_00
And you basically take all the nutrition when you re left with table sugar, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
I m assuming it s like pure calories.
3
SPEAKER_00
And look, you only have no value.
3
SPEAKER_00
Two thousand calories in the calorie bank every day.
3
SPEAKER_00
You cannot be wasting your calories on these empty calorie foods.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so so.
3
SPEAKER_00
And where is and most.
3
SPEAKER_00
grain consumption in the country is sadly these refined grains.
3
SPEAKER_00
So, going after grains, it makes total sense because that s what people are reading.
3
SPEAKER_00
But, of course, whole grains got caught in the kind of friendly fire, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
So, what are the grains we should be eating?
3
SPEAKER_00
So, yeah, whole grains, ideally whole intact grains.
3
SPEAKER_00
So, like oat groats or steel cut oats, the more closely to how they kind of grew out of the ground, the better.
3
SPEAKER_00
Or, you know, whole grain rye.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, so we want whole as the first word in any kind of grain product.
3
SPEAKER_00
Steel cut oats or whole oat oats.
3
SPEAKER_00
Steel cut oats, fantastic.
3
SPEAKER_00
Or even oat groats, which are what steel cut oats are.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oat groats?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, oat groats is before you cut it, an oat groat cut two or three times turns into steel cut oats.
3
SPEAKER_00
But that s the original.
3
SPEAKER_00
And if you haven t tried it, they are delicious.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oat groats?
3
SPEAKER_00
Oat groats you buy, that s what, oh my God.
3
SPEAKER_00
Someone turned me on to oat groats and I was like, I m never going back.
3
SPEAKER_00
Really?
3
SPEAKER_00
They re so good.
3
SPEAKER_00
And they re so much more healthy and they re, I can t, I can t come back to mushy oats.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m sorry.
4
SPEAKER_00
Okay, I m sorry.
4
SPEAKER_00
Do you cook them?
4
SPEAKER_01
So you cook them.
4
SPEAKER_01
Now, they take a long time to cook, unless you have a pressure cooker.
4
SPEAKER_01
So if you have one of these electric pressure cookers out on the market now, then it s super quick.
4
SPEAKER_01
20 minutes, you press a button, they re done, and you can make a whole meal.
4
SPEAKER_00
But it s like oatmeal?
4
SPEAKER_01
So it s like, but it s chewier, harder, more delicious, and no matter how well you chew, the reason it s so much better for you is because these bits
4
SPEAKER_01
of uh go all you know don t get absorbed in our small intestine end up in our large intestine and act as this prebiotic bounty for our good gut bugs but the more you refine it the more you process it the more that gets absorbed high up in the small intestine you re basically leaving your colon bugs to starve down there and that s why the more whole the better that s where the dietary fiber is that s where the resistant starch is that s where
4
SPEAKER_01
We can feed our good gut bugs, and they feed us right back.
4
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
4
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so that s number four.
4
SPEAKER_01
What would be the fifth thing?
4
SPEAKER_01
Okay, the fifth thing are foods they want people to reduce.
4
SPEAKER_01
They want people to reduce meat and soda as the two most important things to cut down in one s diet.
4
SPEAKER_01
But interestingly, the top four were actually things people aren t getting enough of, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
If you add those things.
4
SPEAKER_01
Right.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so it s possible that really the benefits of a plant-based diet is less about what you re cutting out and more about just including the healthiest of healthy foods out there, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I like that philosophy for people because if you can include these things in your system, in your daily routine, you re going to be less hungry for the other sugary processed things.
4
SPEAKER_00
So maybe you have a little bit of it every now and then, but it s not
4
SPEAKER_00
80-90% of your diet.
4
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s kind of behind the daily dozen thing.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s like, by the end of the day, if you actually check off all those boxes, you are kind of naturally crowding out these less healthy options.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it turns out over 50% of calories in the United States come from ultra-processed junk.
4
SPEAKER_01
Most of the food we eat is just junk.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so, right, we re just kind of crowding it, saving for the special occasion.
4
SPEAKER_01
It doesn t matter what we eat on our holidays, birthdays, special occasions, but on a day-to-day basis, we really should try to eat healthy.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that is centering our diets around these natural foods from fields, not factories, these kind of unprocessed foods.
4
SPEAKER_00
Now, I m curious because we have about 50, 50 men and women that watch and listen, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
But I m curious about what, if you could specifically create a super supplement or a stack of supplements every single day for men that they took first thing in the morning, maybe three to five key ingredients.
4
SPEAKER_00
whether it was in a powder or liquid form, what would be those things to have men be optimized, healthier, stronger, more vibrant men?
4
SPEAKER_00
What would those ingredients be?
4
SPEAKER_01
They d be foods.
4
SPEAKER_01
They wouldn t be supplements.
4
SPEAKER_01
They wouldn t put it in a pill.
4
SPEAKER_01
Now, look, if you want to take some berries, freeze-dry them, and make them into a powder, fine.
4
SPEAKER_00
Sure, sure, sure.
4
SPEAKER_01
If you want to call that a supplement by just eating a spoonful of freeze-dried strawberry powder, fine.
4
SPEAKER_00
Sure.
4
SPEAKER_01
Do whatever you want.
4
SPEAKER_01
really comes out of the food.
4
SPEAKER_01
We just don t know enough about biology and the human organism to be able to tease out what it is about these thousands of different food components, then we can extract it out and make money in a pill.
4
SPEAKER_01
Now, if people don t, that doesn t keep people from trying.
4
SPEAKER_00
I tell you, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
That s how you make money.
4
SPEAKER_01
And unfortunately, the system is set up with these kind of wrong incentives, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
The worst thing to sell is produce, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
It goes bad.
4
SPEAKER_01
So the most profitable foods are unfortunately the least healthy foods, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, what you want is a snack cake that sits on the shelf for a few weeks.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s how you make money.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, the produce rots on the shelf.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s like the worst.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s good for a week.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s a loss leader.
4
SPEAKER_01
It gets people into the store so they ll buy the stuff that actually makes profit.
4
SPEAKER_01
If you want to make money, you sell brown sugar water in a bottle.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s like
4
SPEAKER_01
Pure profit.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s all money.
4
SPEAKER_01
So it s not like the head of these soda companies is sitting around thinking, how can I contribute to the childhood obesity epidemic?
4
SPEAKER_01
Right.
4
SPEAKER_01
They re just like, how do I maximize profit for my shareholders in the next quarter?
4
SPEAKER_01
Sure.
4
SPEAKER_01
And anyone who doesn t think that way gets a conscience.
4
SPEAKER_01
they ll be booted out the next day and replaced by somebody you will, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
And it s not some diabolical thing.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s literally just that s how the system works, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
And so even a sweet potato grower is not going to put an ad on TV for sweet potatoes because they re not branded.
4
SPEAKER_01
You ll just buy their competitor s sweet potato.
4
SPEAKER_01
The system is not set up.
4
SPEAKER_01
You re never going to see an ad for sweet potatoes in the Super Bowl because there s just not enough money to be made.
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, pistachios have done a good job.
4
SPEAKER_01
Wasn t there an avocado one, too?
4
SPEAKER_00
I think there was an avocado one.
4
SPEAKER_00
Pistachio nuts have like blown up.
4
SPEAKER_00
They branded pistachio nuts somehow, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
They re everywhere.
4
SPEAKER_01
Look, I m all in favor.
4
SPEAKER_01
I want big broccoli to swoop in and start putting up billboards everywhere.
4
SPEAKER_00
Right.
4
SPEAKER_00
If only they had the money, right.
4
SPEAKER_00
But you mentioned prebiotics being like a key thing.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
for everyone, I guess.
4
SPEAKER_00
So, it would be, you know, if you were to create, like, if someone was going to get three to five supplements, let s say, or the nutrients that they want to have, whether it s through foods, or maybe they didn t have access to those foods, but they can get these prebiotics, what would these ingredients be for men to optimize their hormones, their muscle growth, their stamina, all these different things?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yes, so why not?
4
SPEAKER_01
Look, if it s the prebiotics that are good for you, why not take prebiotic pills?
4
SPEAKER_01
Why not just take a prebiotic powder, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
The problem is that, you know, we talk about dietary fiber, but actually that term dietary fiber literally covers thousands of different compounds, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
And so there s actually thousands of different dietary fibers, and they each feed the growth of different
4
SPEAKER_01
probiotic good bugs in our gut and so it s actually this diversity of of all these kind of this indigestible plant carbohydrates that s what dietary fiber is indigestible by our small intestine makes it down to our large intestine so we cannot be replicated and so things so there s been experiments using something like psyllium always a very common common fiber supplement it can help with
4
SPEAKER_01
go laxation, kelp with like... Releasing the stool.
4
SPEAKER_01
Regularity, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
But does not have all these side benefits because it s not actually digestible, fermentable by a good gut bugs.
4
SPEAKER_01
It just kind of goes through us.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so we have yet to capture the complexity of the natural food matrix in actual kind of pill form.
4
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
4
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
4
SPEAKER_01
as much as people have tried.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so, yeah, anytime some new study comes out saying berries are great for you, and it s probably these anthocyanin pigments, the bright colorful pigments in berries, then instantly, supplement manufacturers are like, boom, there s like anthocyanin supplements at every dose possible.
4
SPEAKER_00
But the food form of these nutrients is the best form to get them.
4
SPEAKER_01
And there have actually been studies that have actually put things head to head.
4
SPEAKER_01
So it s like, oh, I bet tomatoes are good because lycopene, that red pigment, that s why.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, people, men who eat more tomato products have lower rates of prostate cancer.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s probably their lycopene.
4
SPEAKER_01
But when you actually give people lycopene supplements, it doesn t work.
4
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so it s like, OK, well, there s thousands of other things in tomatoes.
4
SPEAKER_01
Let s try something else.
4
SPEAKER_01
Right.
4
SPEAKER_01
But it doesn t stop people from making lycopene supplements.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s kind of all the ingredients combined in the tomato or the apple or whatever that gives you the full compounds, that helps your body digest them.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s a symphony.
4
SPEAKER_01
In fact, there s actually synergy.
4
SPEAKER_01
So when you take ... There s a famous study that was done on pomegranate, and you can fractionate out the pomegranate into different, based on kind of different compound weights.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so, when you give, you kind of drip one component of pomegranates on human cancer cells growing in petri dishes, you know, it drops your growth like 20 percent, and you do another combination.
4
SPEAKER_01
But then you add together, and you have—and one plus one is greater than two, in that they somehow work together, and they have a greater drop than all the individual components.
4
SPEAKER_01
So, really, the whole—I mean, I would—if there was a supplement,
4
SPEAKER_01
If there was a pill, and there certainly are supplements out there that help people get a unit with sunshine, you can take vitamin D, and alcoholics have it, and pregnant women have certain, I mean, there s absolutely needs for supplements, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
But there s, in terms of longevity, in terms of like, I went through, and I went into this book thinking I would be recommending some of these supplements that have made a lot of news, just because I d heard such positive things about them, but when you look in the literature,
4
SPEAKER_01
And I would love to, because it s like, that s such a great hook, like take this one supplement and it s got to do X. I would love to be able to say that.
4
SPEAKER_01
But they fell one by one, boom, boom, boom.
4
SPEAKER_01
But what I did find is that these just random foods I had never heard about, like cardamom or, you know, strawberries, one example, or mushrooms have these things that I, and it s just like normal natural foods have these extraordinary effects.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s kind of not as sexy.
4
SPEAKER_01
You can t just take a little pill.
4
SPEAKER_01
But on one hand, look, it s delicious.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it s not as convenient, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
But again, it really comes down to the food, and it s just not a lot of money to be made.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so we just don t hear about these studies because there s just no corporate budget driving this promotion.
4
SPEAKER_00
This is fascinating, man.
4
SPEAKER_00
This is powerful stuff.
4
SPEAKER_01
I ve recently heard
5
SPEAKER_01
more about glucose.
5
SPEAKER_01
This is becoming more popularized online, or at least talked about in the media more as kind of like, the more your glucose spikes throughout the day, the faster you age as well.
5
SPEAKER_01
I don t know if you ve seen anything in the studies around that.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I ve also heard from some experts that either having a little bit of vinegar in the morning or before a meal helps decrease the spike in glucose.
5
SPEAKER_01
Is that an accurate finding that you ve seen too?
5
SPEAKER_00
I ve got a whole chapter on glycation, one of the aging pathways, and recommend two teaspoons of vinegar with every meal.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s one of the absolutely.
5
SPEAKER_00
And one of the reasons is because it does this and something called A.M.P.K.
5
SPEAKER_00
because the vinegar is acetic acid water by definition.
5
SPEAKER_00
And the by metabolizing the acetic acid requires energy and that energy drain actually bumps up A.M.P.K., which is boosted by exercise, boosted by calorie restriction is one of the kind of anti-aging pathways.
5
SPEAKER_00
And we can get that boost.
5
SPEAKER_00
by just simple vinegar, and it decreases our blood sugars, decreases body fat.
5
SPEAKER_00
You can randomize people to get vinegar.
5
SPEAKER_00
They did vinegar drinks, kind of gross, but they used acetic acid versus another kind of acid, tasted exactly the same, but it wasn t acetic acid, and saw significant difference in visceral body fat, which is the most dangerous body fat coiled around our internal organs, infiltrating our organs, and they did CT scans.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, the conscious people randomized the different kinds of, well, one vinegar or placebo vinegar, and they did this and saw significant loss.
5
SPEAKER_00
Pounds of body fat different.
5
SPEAKER_00
Same amount of calories.
5
SPEAKER_00
Same amount of calories.
5
SPEAKER_00
Just by having vinegar?
5
SPEAKER_00
Vinegar.
5
SPEAKER_00
Vinegar.
5
SPEAKER_00
Now, the problem with the vinegar strategy is that it gets cleared from our system within four to six hours.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s why you really got to do it at every meal if you want to get that constant... Every meal?
5
SPEAKER_00
I know.
5
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so how do you do it?
5
SPEAKER_00
How do you do it?
5
SPEAKER_00
Tell me.
5
SPEAKER_00
So, you can like... You put it in a tall glass of water, you pour a little bit, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
So, put in some tea.
5
SPEAKER_00
You put in some water.
5
SPEAKER_00
In fact, it can be dangerous taking straight.
5
SPEAKER_00
You can burn your esophagus.
5
SPEAKER_00
So very important, do not drink vinegar straight.
5
SPEAKER_00
Sprinkle it on a salad.
5
SPEAKER_00
There s all these flavored balsamics out there.
5
SPEAKER_00
So with savory sweet, there s like dark chocolate balsamic, there s Italian seasoning balsamic.
5
SPEAKER_00
So you can get either curry, there s ginger, there s
5
SPEAKER_01
Or you could just do apple cider vinegar, put it in water, drink it.
5
SPEAKER_00
In fact, you can get the benefits from white distilled vinegar that they use for cleaning the bathroom floor.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, because it s the acetic acid.
5
SPEAKER_00
But just in terms of making things flavorful, making things fun, there s ways to add it to your meals.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, it sounds kind of gross to begin with, but you just find creative ways to include vinegar, and it has significant effects on long-term blood sugar control.
5
SPEAKER_01
And on fat loss, too.
5
SPEAKER_00
And on fat loss.
5
SPEAKER_00
And not just any kind of fat loss, visceral fat loss.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, people hate that jiggly superficial fat, but that actually has very little metabolic implications.
5
SPEAKER_00
You can do massive liposuctions on people, get rid of that, get literally over a dozen pounds of that superficial fat, no effect on metabolism, no effect on insulin resistance, no effect on triglycerides, no effect.
5
SPEAKER_00
If you lost that many pounds of fat, period, like if you were doing exercise, you were doing a better diet, you would get tons of benefits.
5
SPEAKER_00
But that superficial fat that we hate seeing in the mirror, that s not what we should worry about.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s the internal fat.
5
SPEAKER_00
Right.
5
SPEAKER_00
Look, if you want it for cosmetic purposes, whatever.
5
SPEAKER_00
But it s that internal visceral fat coiled around our organs under the abdominal musculature that s kind of bulging out the belly.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s the serious stuff.
5
SPEAKER_00
The good news is your body s smart enough to know that s the most dangerous fat.
5
SPEAKER_00
And when you lose weight, that s the first fat to go.
5
SPEAKER_00
So, preference, that s why people lose fat.
5
SPEAKER_00
They re like, why is my arm still jiggly?
5
SPEAKER_00
I ve been losing all this weight.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s because your body s smart enough to know, look, we ll get there.
5
SPEAKER_00
So, let s do the important stuff first.
5
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
5
SPEAKER_01
So, what would you say the main keys of losing fat, visceral fat and kind of the external fat?
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, the single intervention that created the greatest loss of body fat that didn t restrict calories, obviously, you can lock someone in a closet, you can lose, starve someone, right, or you can change someone to a treadmill, right, okay, but that no exercise component and no calorie restriction, no portion restriction, eat as much as you want, the most effective body fat at six months and 12 months
5
SPEAKER_00
was this whole food plant-based diet, was centering your diets around.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it s really kind of a calorie density factor.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, these are healthy foods.
5
SPEAKER_00
So it s not a restriction.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s not a restriction.
5
SPEAKER_00
Eat as much as you want.
5
SPEAKER_00
Right.
5
SPEAKER_00
But there s so few calories per pound, per mouthful, per plate in these foods, because it s like you could eat a wheelbarrow of leafy greens.
5
SPEAKER_00
You couldn t even maintain your weight.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, you literally could not fit enough in your stomach.
5
SPEAKER_00
You can only fit about a quart of food in your stomach at a time.
5
SPEAKER_00
You can get 2,000 calories.
5
SPEAKER_00
You ate two pints of strawberry ice cream.
5
SPEAKER_00
That would fill up your stomach.
5
SPEAKER_00
You d be full, and you d get over 2,000 calories, all the calories you need for the day.
5
SPEAKER_00
To do that same thing with strawberries, 44 cups.
5
SPEAKER_00
44 cups of strawberries to get 2,000 calories.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s like filling your stomach to bursting 11 times a day.
5
SPEAKER_00
You couldn t even do it physically, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
And that s this concept of calorie density.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so that s why something like oil, people drizzle oil on something.
5
SPEAKER_01
A lot of calories.
5
SPEAKER_00
That is the single most calorie dense food on the planet.
5
SPEAKER_00
Even butter has a little water in it, so it doesn t have that much calories.
5
SPEAKER_00
One tablespoon, 120 calories.
5
SPEAKER_00
So, you drizzle it on, you wouldn t even taste it.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, you d see it ll be a little glistening or something.
5
SPEAKER_00
You just add 120 calories?
5
SPEAKER_00
What, are you crazy?
5
SPEAKER_00
For that same 100 calories, you could add like, you know, two cups of blackberries or something.
5
SPEAKER_00
That would actually fill you up a little bit, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
And think of all the nutrition you d get with that, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
Instead, I mean, oil may have some fat solubility, a little vitamin E or something,
5
SPEAKER_00
But, I mean, the nutrition s really been stripped away, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
And so, the caloric density.
5
SPEAKER_00
So by staying away from junk food, which is designed to have maximum calories per bite, you know, confine the fat and the sugar to just absolutely, like, a teeny little, you know, you get 100 calories in just a teeny little bit, you have these massive platefuls of food to eat all you want.
5
SPEAKER_00
and not have to worry about it.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then you re just getting mountains of nutrition for actually very few calories, and so you can facilitate weight loss in a healthy way.
5
SPEAKER_00
The goal of weight loss is not to fit into a skinnier casket.
5
SPEAKER_00
Not to make it lighter for your pallbearers.
5
SPEAKER_00
How about we lose weight in a way that doesn t mortgage your health?
5
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and when you get these calorie-dense foods with all the nutritional value, it sounds like there s so much healing properties within these foods that allow your system to self-regulate, your
5
SPEAKER_01
your skin to recover, your gut to recover, your brain to start functioning better, isn t that right?
5
SPEAKER_00
And calorie dilute foods, not calorie dense foods.
5
SPEAKER_01
The calorie dense foods are the junk food, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
So not calorie dense, but calorie... We want nutrient dense.
5
SPEAKER_00
Nutrient dense, okay.
5
SPEAKER_00
Nutrient dense.
5
SPEAKER_00
Lots of nutrition per calorie.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so, what has more nutrition per calorie than anything on planet Earth?
5
SPEAKER_00
These dark green leafy vegetables, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
Massive amounts of nutrition.
5
SPEAKER_00
Actually, for very little.
5
SPEAKER_00
It has those nitrates, those athletic performance enhancing ergogenic nitrates.
5
SPEAKER_00
actually helps slow our metabolic rate.
5
SPEAKER_00
And the candle that burns half as bright burns twice as long.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s the other food associated with literally living years longer.
5
SPEAKER_00
Dark green leafy vegetables, nuts, dark green leafy vegetables.
5
SPEAKER_00
And we think it s because of the nitrates.
5
SPEAKER_00
Normally, you only get that kind of metabolic slowing with our resting metabolic rate with severe caloric restriction.
5
SPEAKER_00
But instead of walking around starving all the time, you can just eat a big salad.
5
SPEAKER_01
This is exciting.
5
SPEAKER_01
This is exciting.
5
SPEAKER_01
So we mentioned intermittent fasting, you know, eat in the morning, don t skip breakfast if you re gonna do that.
5
SPEAKER_00
Don t skip breakfast, most important meal of the day.
5
SPEAKER_00
Really?
5
SPEAKER_00
Most important meal of the day.
5
SPEAKER_01
But here s the thing, this is what doctors were saying for many years.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
5
SPEAKER_01
Don t skip breakfast.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
5
SPEAKER_01
But then in the last seven years, everyone s saying doctors were wrong.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
Skip breakfast, allow the body to have autophagy, allow the cells to.
5
SPEAKER_00
I know, I know.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, extend the window where you re not eating as long as you can.
5
SPEAKER_01
Perfect.
5
SPEAKER_01
And that s been the new science, so the new studies that have been out where skipping breakfast is actually better for you because it s boosting testosterone.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s doing all these other things.
5
SPEAKER_00
I talk about that back and forth.
5
SPEAKER_00
I actually have videos about it.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s so funny because you start out the video and be like, yeah, breakfast.
5
SPEAKER_00
And they re like, oh, OK, breakfast.
5
SPEAKER_00
Oh, and then we re back to the beginning.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s so funny.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so many things in the book like that, like wheat germ or something, that s like, didn t that go away in like the 70s?
5
SPEAKER_00
Right.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then it s like, oh, then there s this thing called spermidine, and it s most concentrated in wheat germ, out of all things.
5
SPEAKER_00
All of a sudden, wheat germ is like back on the menu.
5
SPEAKER_00
But it s just so funny, there s like this, we had some kind of ancient wisdom, even before we knew why, that it did actually support these foods.
5
SPEAKER_00
So yeah, no, it turns out.
5
SPEAKER_00
Now, it s true about that feeding window.
5
SPEAKER_00
We do want to try to squeeze it, but critically important is when we re putting that window.
5
SPEAKER_00
In the morning and at lunch.
5
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Early time restricted feeding.
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Because of the circadian rhythm.
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That s it, you got it.
5
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So what is the difference between I guess bad cells and zombie cells?
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Oh, this is cellular senescence So this is one of the aging pathways that cover 11 aging pathways kind of our 11
6
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best opportunities for slowing the sands of time, ending each with kind of impractical takeaways.
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This is the part one of the book.
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It is kind of the nerdy section.
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It goes really deep into kind of the interesting biology mechanisms, but, you know, really do kind of like, okay, but here s the bottom line.
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You can skip all this.
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You know, this is the foods to eat.
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This is the activity to do, blah, blah, blah.
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So, yeah, and the cellulose senescence chapter, very fascinating.
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So, our cells in our body only
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divide about 100 times before they stall out, the so-called Hayflick limit.
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We used to think cells just kind of, you know, divided forever, but they only divide 50 times, and this is good because that s a protection against cancer.
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We want cells to naturally kind of put themselves out to pasture, being replaced by new cells from the stem cells.
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Right.
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And, you know, the cells can become damaged along the way.
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Okay, and so at the end of those about 50 doublings,
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what the cells do is they release these inflammatory mediators, which signals the immune system to come and kill them, basically come and wipe them out.
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This is basically their little suicide wave.
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They re like, okay, so they release these inflammatory compounds, signal the immune system, and it comes and clears out these so-called zombie cells that are no longer participating in the body, actively spewing this, what s called senescence-associated sasps.
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But okay, the problem is, this works great when we re young.
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Unfortunately, our immune system starts to decline with age.
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And so what happens is our immune system s ability to clear out these cells declines such that our body s tissues get littered with these senescent cells spewing out inflammation.
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And one of the reasons why levels of inflammation climb with age, so that you can do these kind of blood tests of systemic inflammation like C-reactive protein and, you know, tumor necrosis factor IL-6, et cetera.
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and they all go up.
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And so this is termed inflammation.
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And a big part of this is these cells, which our body shouldn t get rid of, but unfortunately our ability to do that declines with age.
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And so
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two-pronged approach.
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First, we prevent cells from going prematurely senescent, so they should make it to 50, but if they suffer damage to their DNA from free radicals, from oxidative damage to their DNA as a protective mechanism because it could cause mutations or something, they kind of go out to pasture early.
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And so we can decrease our stress by flooding our body with antioxidant rich foods like the berries and greens and really healthy foods.
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OK, so one, so we prevent the premature senescence.
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That s the first thing.
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And the second is we look for senolytic compounds, ways to clear these zombie cells from our bodies.
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There s been a number of drugs that have been put to the test.
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Unfortunately, these drugs have kind of some severe side effects.
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And so there are certain medical conditions in which synethin cells play a key role, in which case the benefit-risk analysis might actually support use of some of these toxic drugs.
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But for kind of the general public,
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we re really left with senolytic compounds in natural foods.
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There are three of them that have been shown to clear senescent cells in the body.
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One is facetin, which has really only found one place in concentrated form, and that s the strawberries.
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So that s why I end up in the book, in that chapter, recommending fresh, frozen, or freeze-dried strawberries into your daily diet.
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Now normally, if you re putting some on your oatmeal or something, I would have put blackberries.
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Blackberries have five times the antioxidants as strawberries.
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So look, if you like them both,
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You know, why not?
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But I didn t know about facetin, which is really only found in strawberries.
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So if you re not eating strawberries, you re really not getting into your daily diet.
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So I ve been eating a lot more strawberries.
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Okay, the second, something called quercetin.
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Quercetin is found in onions, kale, tea, and capers.
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It may actually play a role in Mediterranean diet help.
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And that helps explain these remarkable studies where they give people onions and see remarkable benefits, literally within an hour.
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You can randomize people eating onions.
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In fact, you can randomize people to eat high quercetin onions versus bread to be low quercetin onions and show that it does appear to be this one compound.
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And so, of course, there s quercetin supplements everywhere.
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It s not clear.
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We don t know.
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What s the best onion?
6
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Well, so it s actually lowest in the sweet onions.
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So like the, of course, like the tastiest onions is the low amount.
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So like the, okay.
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But so yellow onions have more, red onions have the most.
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So red onions are better than white.
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So red onions really are the best.
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Really?
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And look, anything you can do with a white onion, you can do with a red onion.
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So there s no excuse.
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Same thing with cabbage.
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If you re making something with cabbage, don t go for green cabbage.
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Go for red or purple cabbage.
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It has these anthocyanin and berry pigments.
6
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One of the cheapest sources of these berry pigments is in red and purple cabbage, super cheap, and you get those benefits for brain function, eyesight, artery function, inflammation, blood sugar, cholesterol.
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You get those berry benefits in this kind of savory form,
6
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Is raw or cooked red onions better?
6
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Either way, either way.
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It s a heat staple.
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You eat too much.
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Your breath, your partner may.
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In fact, you need to have, I mean, your entire, your sweat can start, I mean, you can really, you can really start as well.
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But has there become, like, too much, like, you know, if you have a half an onion, you just put it in something.
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There s only a concern in supplement form.
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So, the supplement manufacturers that come out, where it s, like, you could not eat this many onions, and then we re playing with fire.
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But, yeah, there s never been any.
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In fact, some of these benefits, some of these remarkable clinical benefits, we re seeing after eating, like, one, two onions a day.
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I don t know how one does that without.
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Wow.
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I mean, that s a lot.
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But you can get benefit even from literally a teaspoon of chopped onion.
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put it on your food and just eat it.
6
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Right, right.
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And this is all the Allium family vegetables.
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So it could be like green onions or, you know, so like scallions or onions, garlic.
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It s all in this kind of same family and they have this beneficial compound.
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The third compound, it s a tough one to get.
6
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It s called pepper long you mean.
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Only found really in one place, which is something called poly or long pepper.
6
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It s in the black pepper family.
6
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You can get it in Middle Eastern spice stores.
6
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And it basically kind of tastes like black pepper with a little kind of Szechuan heat to it.
6
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But it s a single compound you really can t find anywhere else, so I encourage people to put some of that in their pepper grinder to add that to their daily diet.
6
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That s amazing.
6
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Now, you went to medical school, right?
6
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Oh, yeah.
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In medical school, they don t teach you this stuff.
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They don t even teach you the basics.
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Right, they don t teach you about nutrition, they don t teach you about foods, none of that, right?
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Maybe there s like one hour class on this stuff I hear from other doctors, right?
6
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So how did you get into this world of nutritional science as well?
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when most people today look at doctors skeptically when they re speaking about this because they think, oh, they re not a nutritionist, they re not a scientist around foods.
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So how did you get into this world?
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Absolutely.
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In fact, having an MD after your name is basically advertising the world that you know nothing about nutrition.
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that you are completely ignorant about the entire field of nutrition.
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So the average doctor these days gets four hours of nutrition training out of thousands of hours of preclinical instruction.
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I actually chose the medical school with the largest nutrition training in the country.
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They actually have a nutrition school at Tufts.
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19 hours, but that s the most out of thousands of hours.
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And most of it is basic biochemistry of vitamins and like scurvy, pellagra, stuff we don t even see anymore, and it s like kerb cycle.
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So it s not actually clinical nutrition.
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Using nutrition diet to actually prevent or reverse disease, that s missing in even those few hours that people get.
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And so then doctors graduate without this powerful tool in their medical toolbox.
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To actually heal.
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To actually help people.
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You know, for about 80% that walks into a primary care doctor s office are these chronic diseases, lifestyle diseases like the high blood pressure and type 2 diabetes and the obesity and the heart disease.
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And yes, we have drugs that can slow down the rate at which our diabetics go blind.
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And lose their kidney function and lose their lower limbs, but not reversing it, but not actually make our patients better.
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That s why we went to medical school, right?
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We want to actually heal people.
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But instead, I mean, it s just it s just so frustrating because unless you treat the cause, the underlying cause,
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you re not actually going to reverse the disease.
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But that s the exciting thing about lifestyle medicine.
6
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Okay, so how did I get into this whole lifestyle medicine thing?
6
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Proud to be a co-founder of the American College of Lifestyle Medicine, now the fastest growing medical specialty in the country.
6
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Very exciting.
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Okay, it all started with my grandmother.
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I was just a kid when my grandma
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was sent home in a wheelchair, basically to die with end-stage heart disease.
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She already had so many bypass surgeries, she basically kind of run out of plumbing at some point.
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So confined to a wheelchair, crushing chest pain.
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Her life was over at age 65.
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Oh, man.
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And then she heard about this guy, Nathan Pritikin, one of our early lifestyle medicine pioneers.
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And what happened next is actually detailed in Pritikin s biography.
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It talks about Francis Greger,
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my grandmother.
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They wheeled her in and she walked out.
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Though she was given her medical death sentence at age 65 thanks to a healthy diet, she was able to enjoy another 31 years on this planet until age 96 to continue to enjoy her six grandkids, including me.
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That s why I went into medicine.
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That s why I practiced lifestyle medicine, why I started the website nutritionfacts.org, why I wrote the book How Not to Die, why all the proceeds from all my books are donated directly to charity.
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I just wanna do for everyone s family what Pritikin did for my family.
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Wow, now did you think about that going into medical school?
7
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Absolutely.
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So you knew going into medical school, they re not teaching me the things I still need to know.
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So when did you learn all the stuff about lifestyle, nutrition, diet, foods,
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Was it all after medical school?
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No, the big pivot was in 1990, before medical school even started.
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And that was the publication of the Lifestyle Heart Trial from Dean Ornish and colleagues.
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So what Pritkin was doing, he was reversing heart disease by the thousands.
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But back then, we did not have the technology to actually look inside people s arteries.
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So it was a clinical diagnosis.
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You have chest pain when you walk upstairs, you got heart disease.
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OK, and so we put you on drugs, and we cut your chest open, we do bypass, we stents, whatever.
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Okay, then Pritikin would take these people and then put them on his diet and lifestyle program, and all of a sudden, chest pain goes away.
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And so, he reversed heart disease.
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Now, the medical profession was like, no, no, no, heart disease gets worse, worse, worse, until you die.
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That s what they re thinking at the time.
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And so, if your patient is fine, he never had heart disease in the first place, right?
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It must have been something else.
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And so, he was kind of remained on the fringe until
7
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Dr. Dean Ornish came along.
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He used something called quantitative angiography, where you inject a radiopig dye into the arteries.
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You do these x-rays.
7
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You can actually see the inside of the arteries.
7
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And so, for the first time, was able to prove the reversal of heart disease, opening up arteries, without drugs, without surgery, just a healthy plant-based diet and exercise.
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And so that was really, and it was published in the most prestigious medical journal in the world.
7
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So it was like unassailable science, randomized controlled trials.
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Of course, the people in the control group who were told to continue to eat whatever their doctors told them to eat, continue to get worse.
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That s what happens normally.
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Whereas you got this reversal on average in those.
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And so it s the only diet ever been proven to reverse the progression of heart disease in the majority of patients.
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So it s like, look,
7
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If that s all a plant-based diet could do, reverse the number one killer of men and women,
7
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Shouldn t that be kind of the default diet until proven otherwise?
7
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And the fact that it can also be a side effect of preventing, arresting, or reversing other leading killers like high blood pressure and type 2 diabetes, which silly make the case for plant-based eating really kind of unassailable at this point.
7
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But then here I am.
7
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So now I had already known about this from my grandma, but here I was in black and white publishing the most prestigious medical journal.
7
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And so you just imagine all of medicine changing.
7
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Here we are decades later.
7
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That was 1990.
7
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Over three decades later, hundreds of thousands of Americans continue to die from heart disease, a preventable, arrestable, sometimes even reversible condition, which we ve known about for decades.
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just because this has yet to really penetrate into the medical field.
7
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And that s because of the incentives are wrong.
7
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Actually, you know, hospitals make money cutting people open.
7
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And these are the golden goo for big pharma, lifestyle drugs, where instead of 10 days on an antibiotic to save your life, it s take a drug every single day for the rest of your life.
7
SPEAKER_01
That s how you make money, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
But the only drug you need that for is these lifestyle diseases.
7
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Wherever you continue to treat yourself like this, well, of course you need something.
7
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And look, if you refuse to improve your life, then these drugs can be life-saving.
7
SPEAKER_01
But even better, why not try to reverse
7
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the disease by treating the underlying cause in the first place.
7
SPEAKER_00
So when you finished medical school, did you start going right into this nutritional side of learning as well?
7
SPEAKER_01
Well, so yeah, so I started out in clinical practice, but then I realized, like, even though, you know, I don t know how many people you could pack into a day, you know,
7
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how many people am I reaching, right?
7
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So people were dying everywhere.
7
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And so then I, so I started, you know, giving lectures and going around to medical schools and trying to train the kind of next generation of doctors.
7
SPEAKER_01
But even then, like how many people can you reach in a day?
7
SPEAKER_01
You can reach hundreds, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
So then I started, it was actually so long ago, it was like a VHS series.
7
SPEAKER_01
I started making, well, why don t I tape these lectures, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
And then send out these VHS tapes.
7
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We started doing DVDs until finally,
7
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was able to put it online.
7
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Yeah, yeah, of course.
7
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And then can reach millions with that same kind of message.
7
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So now, so I had to give up the clinical practice.
7
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So I feel like I m still practicing medicine, but just on a kind of a broader scale, writing, research, speaking, all that, just getting this information out there.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s like, in a certain sense, we really don t need any more research.
7
SPEAKER_01
Like, we have enough to, like, save so many lives.
7
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And there s always unanswered questions.
7
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I love the research.
7
SPEAKER_01
But we have enough now to really reverse the course of the way our country s headed.
7
SPEAKER_00
So it was a lot of your learning then based on just studying research papers and clinical trials and then kind of assimilating the research and saying, hey, this is the findings, why don t we start trying these things with patients and see the results?
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so it s all really the gold standard of what we know in medicine comes from the so-called peer-reviewed medical literature, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
So these are the studies in these peer-reviewed medical journals where at least there s this kind of bar to entry.
7
SPEAKER_01
Like on the internet, you can say anything, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
Earth is flat, whatever, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
And look, you can say there s crazy things published in the Bereaved literature as well, but at least there s kind of a barred entry where fellow scientists actually look at your work with kind of a skeptical eye and make sure you re just like not totally making stuff out of whole cloth, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
And so that s where we look to.
7
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And so there s been decades, decades of this mountain of research building up, but it just hasn t kind of gotten over to the general public, again, just because there s not money
7
SPEAKER_00
to be made, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
So new blockbuster drug, oh my God, there is a press release, there is ads on TV, everybody knows about the new drug, which could have even a fraction of the benefit as the, and so I feel like we re in a very similar situation to kind of smoking in the 50s.
7
SPEAKER_01
In the 50s, we had already literally- Dr. Recommended, cigarettes, yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
Decades of research, starting in the 30s, linking lung cancer and smoking.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so, yet, the average per capita cigarette consumption in the 1950s, 4,000 cigarettes a year, meaning the average person walking around smoked half a pack a day.
7
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Most doctors smoked.
7
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The media was telling people to smoke.
7
SPEAKER_01
The American Medical Association said smoking in moderation.
7
SPEAKER_01
That was fine, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
And so, by the time 1964, when the first Surgeon General s report came out,
7
SPEAKER_01
And smoking rates went up, up, up until 1964.
7
SPEAKER_01
Then, in one of the most remarkable public health victories of all time, basically, smoking rates have come down every year since and down this tumbling lung cancer rates.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s just the most beautiful graphs in all public health.
7
SPEAKER_01
And what happened in 1964?
7
SPEAKER_01
The first Surgeon General s report, just this acknowledgment by the powers that be that, OK, yeah, smoking isn t good for you.
7
SPEAKER_01
And they cited 7,000 studies, right?
7
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So you d think maybe after the first,
7
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6,000 studies could give people a little heads up or something, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
So I feel like we re in the same situation today, where there s this absolute mountain of evidence, it just has yet to kind of make it into the public consciousness, make it kind of bypass these barriers.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so that was really like, that s my role, is I m gonna take, it s not me saying this, it s just like, this is what the established science is already there, but there s just kind of no sexy money to be made, and it doesn t make those headlines.
7
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No one wants to see broccoli on the cover of a book.
7
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Right, it s just like, it s like, it has everything working against it, except who profits?
7
SPEAKER_01
I mean, the people profit.
7
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Your family profits.
7
SPEAKER_01
Longevity profits, yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so that, it s just crossing that gap, getting that information out to the public.
7
SPEAKER_00
I mean, you mentioned that, 1964 was when, you know, they came out and said, smoke is essentially bad for you.
7
SPEAKER_00
Right.
7
SPEAKER_00
60 years ago, is that right, 60 years ago?
7
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It seems to me like,
7
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80% of Americans know that sugar and processed foods are not healthy for you.
7
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It seems to me by now there s enough information out there that people at least have that awareness.
7
SPEAKER_00
But they haven t stopped the consumption or the behavior.
7
SPEAKER_00
What do you think it s gonna take for people to change the behavior and the habits to consume healthier foods so they can actually live longer, as opposed to suck to the addiction of feeling and tasting good?
7
SPEAKER_01
Well, you know, towards the end there, with the smoking, in the smoking crisis, most smokers had an inkling that smoking s not good for you.
7
SPEAKER_01
But what the industry s tact was,
7
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was just to muddy the waters.
7
SPEAKER_01
They knew they were going to lose in the end.
7
SPEAKER_01
They re going to confuse you.
7
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Right.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so, in fact,
8
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In fact, there s this famous memo which was uncovered in the tobacco trials, this internal memo called Doubt is Our Product.
8
SPEAKER_00
So this is a PR company that worked with Phil Morris to, we don t have to convince people smoking is good for you.
8
SPEAKER_00
We lost that.
8
SPEAKER_00
Okay, all we have to do is introduce doubt.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, maybe it causes lung cancer, maybe it doesn t, right?
8
SPEAKER_00
And that s all you need for someone who s addicted to smoking, to be like, well, look, they say it s okay, right?
8
SPEAKER_00
And so now, the same thing, right?
8
SPEAKER_00
It s like we are bombarded by ads for fast food, for junk food, for candy, for soda, right?
8
SPEAKER_00
At the same time, the science is so clear, but we re getting these mixed messages.
8
SPEAKER_00
And you know when you re, everybody wants to hear good news about their bad habits.
8
SPEAKER_00
Right.
8
SPEAKER_00
And so when there s like, well, this person says alcohol is good for you.
8
SPEAKER_00
I mean, right.
8
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And so even if all these people are.
8
SPEAKER_00
And so that s all you need is that.
8
SPEAKER_00
And then you just can t continue down your path.
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Right.
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And so that s what the 1964 did.
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Was there s like, OK, there s scientific consensus now.
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Anyone who s telling you that smoking is not bad for you is a paid shill of the industry.
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And it s like this is like this is the established science.
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Although, you know, it s hard to imagine that even happening these days.
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What if the CDC, the government, came out and said, you know, yeah, it turns out that processed meat, bacon, and hot dogs, and lunch meat, we determined that they increase the risk of colorectal cancer.
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In fact, it s a known human carcinogen.
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It s true, Group 1 carcinogen, meaning we re as sure that processed meat causes colorectal cancer as we are that plutonium causes cancer, and tobacco causes cancer, and asbestos causes cancer.
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We are sure it causes cancer.
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And yet we re sending kids to school with a bologna sandwich or something.
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We wouldn t maybe smoke around our kids now, but we re sending them.
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And colorectal cancer is the single deadliest cancer among nonsmokers.
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If you don t smoke, you re number one cancer nemesis in terms of dying from colorectal cancer.
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Okay, so science has been established, has not yet, but what if the CDC, the government, finally came out, put it on their website, okay, yeah, process me, we probably shouldn t be feeding this to people.
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In today s media world, you know, back then, like, we like to, I mean, certainly me, I like to think of the internet as this, like, democratizing force, like, you know, we all have this idealistic view of, like, now, like, the truth is gonna float to the surface, right?
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If everybody, a free marketplace of ideas, right?
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And so, you know, back in the 1950s, tobacco could absolutely control the message.
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They can pay off the doctors.
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In fact, the American Medical Association, even after 1964,
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Even after the Surgeon General s report came out, they refused to endorse it, and it turns out later, they got a $10 million check from the tobacco industry.
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Wow.
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Which they didn t disclose.
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Anyway, okay, so look, you could pay off the doctors, you could control the message, you control the media, right?
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Now, which is in part good, there s no longer that kind of monopolistic control of the message, right?
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But there s confusion.
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But, it s replaced with confusion.
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Even if these days we had the, quote-unquote, authorities, the experts that came out and said X, Y, Z, a lot of people wouldn t believe them.
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Now, for good reason in many cases, because there s been so many terrible crises with drugs that were promoted and then turned out to be terrible and pulled from the market.
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Look, all the authorities were telling people to use these drugs.
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So it s hard to imagine a similar kind of aha moment with diet that we saw with this kind of clear surge in general thing.
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And so there s always going to be the sugar pushers, and there s always going to be these people that are muddying the waters just enough to introduce enough doubt that people will kind of throw up their hands and eat whatever crap s put in front of them, which is how the industry makes money.
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I ve got a few questions for you left, but I m excited for people to check out your book, How Not to Age, the scientific approach to getting healthier as you get older.
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And I think a lot of people think about, you know, how do we, how do I make my biological age, right, reverse?
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Essentially, you can t reverse chronological age, but how do we make our cells younger, right?
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How do we make our body, our cells younger?
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Is that the difference between the chronological and biological age?
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Exactly.
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Right.
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There s the calendar age that just keeps going forward until we get a DeLorean or something.
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But then there s the right.
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But just because we happen to have this many birthdays doesn t necessarily mean our body is functioning as if it could be worse.
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We get to be have accelerated aging and that we really should have the heart and the kidneys and the liver of a 50 year old.
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But they re actually functioning like a 60-year-old.
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We actually have the muscle mass of a 60-year-old.
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Or, alternately, we take care of ourselves, and we have tremendous power over this leeway.
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Or, yeah, I ve had 50 birthdays, but I have the aerobic capacity of a 40-year-old.
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And so that s this difference.
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And so there s lots of different ways to measure biological aging.
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And it s just a fascinating field of science.
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But the bottom line is that we really have tremendous control over that leeway.
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That s cool.
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And literally, just, and it s never too late.
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I mean, so there s, the first studies that came out, it s like, okay, well, if you start at age 20 and you do the X, Y, and Z, by age 50, you ll have all these benefits.
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And it s like, yeah, that s great, but you should have told me that 30 years ago, right?
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Sure, sure, sure.
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But then they found, wait a second, even in the 80s, this is the latest that s been done, but even in people s 80s, there s still literally years left on the table, healthy years left on the table, just by simple, basic lifestyle changes.
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And so those few things I mentioned before,
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not being obese, not smoking, regular aerobic exercise, and more fruits and vegetables, can over the subsequent four years, if you re between the ages of 45 and 64, decrease your risk of all-cause mortality by 40%.
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Wow.
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Meaning your risk of dying by anything over the next four years, by 2028, you want to reduce your risk by 40%, just do those four things.
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I mean, so that s like, we have tremendous power over, you know, look, you can still get hit by a bus, I mean, there s lots of things, still gotta wear a seatbelt, smoke alarms, all that, right?
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But, in terms of what s the most common cause of death, actually we have so much control, and unfortunately we just don t hear that message.
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What are the four main things?
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Okay, so, not smoking, not being obese,
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regular exercise, which really comes out to like 22 minutes a day, which was what the cutoff point was, and five daily servings of fruits and vegetables minimum, right?
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And that s not, so that s not a lot.
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And we re not talking about cutting out meat.
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We re not talking about like any of these like dramatic changes, not all or nothing, like just like these really core kind of, yeah, we heard about five foods, right?
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But it s like, wow.
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I mean, that makes this massive amount of difference.
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Now, you want to go beyond that and like,
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you know, tweak even further.
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Yeah, we got also, there s certain fruits and vegetables that are even better than other fruits and vegetables, but let s not get lost in the weeds here.
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Let s do the simple things.
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That ll get us most of the way there.
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Wow.
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This is fascinating, Michael.
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I m so grateful for your excitement and passion around this and your wisdom and knowledge.
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A couple of final questions.
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This one is something I ask everyone towards the end of our conversations.
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It s called the three truths.
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So I d like you to imagine a hypothetical scenario.
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You get to live as long as you want to live.
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You get to continue to write all the books and speak 200 times a year like you do a lot of the times to spread this message.
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And you experience life the way you want to.
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All your dreams come true.
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But it s the last day for you, far in the distance.
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And in this hypothetical scenario, on your last day, you have to take all of your work with you.
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No one has access to this book, to this conversation, or anything you ve ever written or said, ever.
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Oh, you re killing me.
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It s gone to another place.
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OK.
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But before you die, you get to leave three things behind, three lessons, three truths.
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It could be about your work.
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It could be about personal life.
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It could be about whatever you believe that you would want to leave behind, these three lessons to the world.
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What would be those three truths for you?
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Um, well, I mean, certainly a truth for me, you know, it s always hard to give advice to other people, right, obviously.
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But what s certainly been true for me is my, what I ve dedicated my life to, this kind of reducing unnecessary suffering in the world.
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That has given me, having that
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Having that motivation, having that vision, having that base truth in my life has, like, so even if all my good works were to nothing, it would have benefited me to have woke up every day and been able to look myself in the mirror and be like, you know, there s just so many horrible things happening in the world, but like, I did my part.
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And so that would be the message.
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if you can configure your life to not just do what you re good at and not just to, you know, but to do something meaningful for others and to kind of look outside yourself, if you can.
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Look, there s so many people struggling with basic, you know, I had this privileged ability to be
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able to look outside because I had my basic needs met.
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So that would definitely be one of the truths, is to incorporate some kind of selfless act.
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Look, and that could be philanthropy, right?
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I mean, it doesn t have to mean devoting your career to that.
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but you know, like tithing, you know, even 10% to, you know, there s so much we could do with, you know, like bed nets for malaria and stuff.
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You can save, literally save people s lives for, you know, small amounts of money, right?
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If you actually save someone s life, if you went into a burning building and you pulled out some kid, that would be the biggest day of your life.
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Like that, you would remember that.
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That would be like your crowning achievement.
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You would never forget that.
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Your life would have been worth it.
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Right.
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You can do that with a check these days because now we have a system where we can get money anywhere in the world to places that really need it.
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We have preventable diseases and we have tremendous poverty that can be alleviated.
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And it s like, that s this amazing, we have this amazing power that we never really had in our species before to help.
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You know, we have this tendency, obviously, to help people around us.
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People are close to us.
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We see something and we want to reach out to something local.
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I totally understand that.
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But, I mean, poverty here is nothing like poverty some places in the world.
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And you win the dollar, it can go so much further.
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And so, that s another thing that I ve really learned, is that you can help, I mean, you can be that crazy hero that actually saves somebody s life.
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Regardless of what you do in your life, by giving just a little bit, we really have tremendous control.
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I know we don t like to think about these horrible things, but you know how you don t think about these horrible things?
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You actually do something about it.
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We don t want to think about it because we have this guilt.
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You don t have the guilt when you feel like, I am part of the solution.
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Taking action, yeah.
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I am taking action.
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In fact, I m helping, and even if I could help more and I m not helping as much as I possibly could, look, I m helping more than like 90% of the people around me.
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Even given 10%, how many people actually give 10% of their income, right?
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Particularly people who are making enough that they wouldn t really even notice the 10% at the end of the day.
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Yeah, and so the fact that there s this, really this beautiful culture of giving in this culture, in this society, I just came back from Europe, and there just really isn t this thing of donating to non-profits, and there s just not that kind of, the billionaires there are just keeping all the money themselves, whereas billionaires here are doing these massive projects, and I know we love to hate on the billionaire.
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And people are still hating on them.
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I know we hate on them,
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But, I mean, they actually do some good things they can do, and we should be, like, applauding them when they do it, and not just, like, God damn it, why didn t you?
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You should give more.
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Exactly.
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Oh, yeah, okay, well, yeah, and they should.
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But still, still.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
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Okay, so that s your first one.
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Okay, so further, live to your values.
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And then the second one, you can, I mean, we want to separate that out to actually act on those values.
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Even if it s not in a career, you can do it with money, with resources.
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another core truth.
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Could you give me a truth that is, in all that otherworldly thinking, you need to hold a place for love, self-love, and not only self-love, but surrounding your people and surrounding yourself.
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And we were just kind of,
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We re these social beings.
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We just evolved to be, you know, to be able to have to have the, and as much as like, you know, I m just like workaholic for the whatever, I ve really learned too late in life, I m afraid.
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Really?
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And that, you know, I really have to, you know, you put on your own mask before you help others.
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And it s not because you re selfish, it s because you can t help others if you re not taking care of yourself.
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And so, yeah, and so making sure, and so really cultivating love in your life is something that I wish I would have emphasized earlier.
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And it almost seemed like selfish to me, right?
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It s like, what do you mean?
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I mean, but there s so many people out there that I could be helping, right?
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To like put all my energies into like one person or into, you know, it seems almost like, well, of course, man, of course I want to help because I m close to them.
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But it s like, that s almost seems like,
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You know, unfair, but the wisdom I ve learned later, the truth that I would path on to my earlier self would be to really, that has to be a priority.
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Wow.
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Because that s so much of- That is life.
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From kind of a lifelong perspective, it s the feeling of the work I ve done.
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But kind of on a day-to-day happiness, literally, how are you feeling right now on a day-to-day?
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It s the loving relationships in your life.
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Those are great truths.
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Those are beautiful.
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Do you have love in your life right now?
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I don t have enough love in my life, unfortunately.
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So what action are you gonna take this year to cultivate more love?
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That has been, yeah, well, I mean, I m a tough person.
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I m a tough person to love, just because, you know, I m so kind of- Your time commitments to your work, yeah.
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I m so neglectful of my relationships with friends and family, as much as I love them, because there s just like,
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the world s on fire, that I can do something about it, and I feel myself in the more uniquely positioned I am to help.
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Before, when I was a kid, it s like, I m bulk mailing envelopes for the local homeless, whatever, right?
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But if I wasn t doing it, somebody else could do it.
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But the more I get like, well, if I m not doing this, it s like, well, if I don t get this done, it s not like somebody else is just kind of swooping to do it, and so I feel this additional burden to do it.
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But, so, but, so, speaking tour.
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This is your third tour, this is one of your most, if you could only think of three things to do in the world.
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I know, so that s, well, so, I m gonna meet a lot of people on this speaking tour, and hopefully I will find the love of my life.
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On the road.
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So you re sending that intention.
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I m sending that intention out into the world.
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OK, great.
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All right.
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There you go.
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But you could also do that with friends and family.
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I can also.
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Be a little more intentional.
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It s true.
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It s hard.
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When we get so obsessed into our mission, it s hard to remember to text or call.
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Absolutely.
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I understand that feeling.
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I love you, Mom.
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That s good.
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Give her a call today.
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That s right.
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That s right.
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I want to acknowledge you, Michael, for your commitment to your mission, your commitment to wanting to put together great work where you re finding all the best research you can find and packaging it so we can understand it and sharing your findings so that we can hopefully live healthier, longer, better lives so that we can enjoy the fruits of connection and love with people around us.
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And I want to acknowledge you for acknowledging that as well, that it s something you get to work on in your own life.
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That s right.
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I think, you know, saying that truth and owning it is a great thing to say.
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And so having that intention this year, I think I m excited.
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Hopefully by the end of this year, you send me a photo.
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I m reporting back.
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Absolutely.
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And you have the love in your life, whether it s one person or friends or family.
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That s right.
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Just more love in general.
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You get invited to the wedding.
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Let s go.
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Let s go.
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People can get the book, How Not to Age, the scientific approach to getting healthier as you get older.
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Make sure you guys grab a copy.
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You ve got a few other great books as well.
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Where can we follow you, support you, and learn more about your work as well?
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So all my work is available free at nutritionfacts.org.
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There s no ads, no corporate sponsorships, strictly not commercial, not selling anything.
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Just put it up as a public service, as a labor of love, as a
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Tribute to my grandmother.
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That s beautiful.
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That s so nice, man.
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I love it.
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Final question for you.
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What s your definition of greatness?
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Is living true to your values.
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Living true to your values.
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Whatever those values are, you know you should do the right thing.
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but are you actually doing what you know?
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You re not being convinced otherwise, no, no.
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You know what s right, and are you actually doing it in the back of your mind, right?
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You know you could be a little bit, a little more true to your inner self, but are you actually doing it?
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Are you going all in on it, right?
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Ah, ah, that s greatness.
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It s like being your own superhero, basically.
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It s like, and no one knows what you re capable of, but you.
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yeah then and you know and people could be like patting you on the back oh my god you did awesome but you know you could have studied a little more you could have done this a little more yeah okay now it s that feeling that like no no i i put in the work and i and i did absolute look i could have done better but i just i don t have the capacity to do better but i did the absolute best i could that and look who it doesn t matter what the outcome is
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did you really do what you know, it was possible.
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That s greatness.
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Yeah, Michael, thanks so much for being here.
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I hope you enjoyed today s episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness.
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Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today s episode with all the important links.
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And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad free listening, then make sure to
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subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
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Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well.
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Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review.
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I really love hearing feedback from you, and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward.
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And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.
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And now it s time to go out there and do something great.