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Coming up next on Passion Strike.
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One of the things when it comes to grit, I think it s so important to have grit and to keep working hard.
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But when it comes to mental strength, I think one of the key differences is recognizing that it s OK to give up sometimes.
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Sometimes people who are too gritty tend to keep going long after they should quit.
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So, for example, if I start a new business tomorrow and my business isn t doing well,
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and I m suffering because of it.
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It s okay to have the mental strength to say, you know what?
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This was not a good idea.
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I don t need to have the grittiness to keep going long after I should have given up.
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And I see people who get stuck in that pattern where they ll say, I already announced I was going to run a marathon and now I ve torn this muscle in my leg, but I m going to hobble along anyway because I have grit.
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And I want them to know it s okay.
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Sometimes it takes a lot of courage to give up, to abandon your goals, to say that didn t work right now.
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I m going to focus on something else.
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Welcome to Passion Struck.
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Hi, I m your host, John R. Miles, and on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world s most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you.
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Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself.
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If you re new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays.
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We have long-form interviews the rest of the week with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes.
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Now, let s go out there and become PassionStruck.
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Hello everyone and welcome back to episode 375 of Passion Struck, the number one alternative health podcast.
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And thank you to all of you who come back to the show weekly to listen and learn how to live better, be better and impact the world.
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I am so excited to announce that my new book Passion Struck is now available for pre-order and you can find it at Amazon or on the Passion Struck website.
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Starting in December, I will be using my solo episodes to discuss different aspects of the book, and in January, we will feature guests who I talk about in the book.
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If you re new to the show, thank you so much for joining us.
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Or you simply want to introduce this to a friend or a family member, check out our episode starter packs, which are collections of our fans  favorite episodes that we organize into convenient playlists that give any new listener a great way to get acclimated to everything we do here on the show.
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Either go to Spotify or PassionStruck.com,
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slash starter packs to get started.
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And in case you missed it, last week, I had an all-star lineup of three interviews.
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The first was with renowned brain coach, Jim Quick, the founder and CEO of Quick Learning, New York Times bestselling author of Limitless and host of the Quick Brain podcast.
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We discuss how Jim has spent the last 25 years helping people to improve their memory, learn to speed read, and increase their decision-making skills.
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We discuss the newest version of his book, Limitless Expanded.
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I also interviewed Dr. Lynn Matrician, the Chief Science Officer at the Pancreatic Cancer Action Network, otherwise known as PANCAN.
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This was really an emotional podcast for me because my sister has pancreatic cancer.
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So we really went through the need for early detection of pancreatic cancer, the latest on available treatment options, educating high-risk groups, and lastly, the importance of advocacy.
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And then, finally, I interviewed famed executive coach and best-selling author Jerry Colonna.
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We discussed his latest work, Reunion, Leadership and the Longing to Belong, where Jerry invites us into a discussion on how leaders can spearhead the creation of truly inclusive environments.
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I also wanted to truly thank you for your ratings and reviews.
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We now have over 25,000 of them globally on Apple Podcasts alone.
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Thank you so much for your support.
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And if you loved today s episode, we would appreciate you giving it a 5-star review and sharing it with your friends and families.
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These mean so much in bringing more people into this community where we can bring people so much hope, meaning, and inspiration.
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and I know we and our guests love to see comments from our listeners.
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Today, I have the immense privilege of chatting with the incredible Amy Morin.
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Widely known as a pioneering psychotherapist, Amy has been dubbed the self-help guru of the moment by The Guardian and a thought leadership star by Forbes.
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She s the award-winning host of the Mentally Stronger with Therapist Amy Morin podcast
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her international bestsellers including 13 Things Mentally Strong People Don t Do and 13 Things Mentally Strong Women Don t Do have enlightened readers in more than 40 languages selling over a million copies.
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Together, we ll delve deep into the heart of mental strength.
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We ll unpack the critical habits that often hold us back, the power of resilience in the face of adversity, and the actionable steps to breaking barriers in our minds.
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We also discuss Amy s upcoming book, 13 Things Mentally Strong Couples Don t Do.
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We examine how couples can collaborate to grow stronger and enhance their relationships.
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We discuss her unique framework highlighting 13 Key Mistakes Couples Should Avoid to Foster Relationship Health and Build Mental Resilience.
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It stands as an indispensable resource for couples aiming to build a resilient, fulfilling partnership in today s world.
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Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life now.
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Let that journey begin.
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I am so absolutely thrilled today to welcome Amy Morin to PassionStruck.
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Welcome, Amy.
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Thank you so much for having me on your show.
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Well, when you reached out to me, I had always wanted to have you on the show.
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So I was just psyched that you showed an interest and I am so glad that you can share your wisdom with our audience because what you re doing with your podcast and your books is truly amazing.
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Well, thank you.
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I ve been a fan of your show for a while.
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So I was like, we must cross paths one of these days.
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And of course it led to this incredible discussion about boats, which was always fun to have.
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Well, that s where I was actually going to start because as you and I have discussed previously before this podcast, you and I both share a love of sailing, and I was hoping you could tell the audience the story of how you and your husband found your way to living on a sailboat in the Florida Keys.
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So seven years ago now, we lived in Maine, and for the most part, I was a full-time therapist, and he d always wanted to live on a boat since he was a little kid.
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When he was four, his bedroom was decorated in a sailboat theme, so he said, I d love to live on a boat someday.
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We put it off until someday, but we didn t set a date for it or anything.
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And once I started writing books, I realized, well, I don t have to sit in an office anymore.
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I could write a book from anywhere.
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And we really realized, like, why do you want to put it off until quote unquote someday?
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Someday is never promised.
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But I also didn t want to be 80 years old trying to crawl onto a sailboat.
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So we said, well, let s give it a shot.
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And I really thought we d probably be here for six months.
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But again, six months has now turned into seven years.
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I can t believe we re still here.
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Never imagined this would be a longer term lifestyle, but it certainly turned into it.
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Yeah, I loved my time down in the Keys, but I didn t live there for seven years.
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I have to tell you when I was stationed in Key West, I used to get Island fever and would have to leave the Island after we d been there about 18 months, at least once a month, we d head up to Miami.
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Have you ever had that feeling yourself?
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Well, I guess the good part about having a boat is once I m out in the water, I forget that we re on an island.
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So if we get out there, it s cool, but for work, I m always traveling anyway for speaking engagements.
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So it s never, I don t think I ve ever been here for more than like a month at a time before I end up going on a trip of some sort, but I certainly hear that from some people.
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There are people down here in the Keys that say, I don t ever want to go to the mainland and they haven t done it in years and they pride themselves on that.
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But I hear from other people who are like, oh, you got to get off this rock once in a while.
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and go do something else somewhere.
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Amy, for those who might not be aware of you, you had a TED talk that had 20 million plus views, making it one of the most popular podcasts of all time.
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You also had an article around 13 Things Mentally Strong People Don t Do that when it was picked up by Forbes ended up also getting 50 million plus reads, if I have that correct.
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Can you give a little bit of background into what led you down this whole concept of what ended up becoming your first book, 13 Things Mentally Strong People Don t Do?
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Yeah, certainly.
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I never intended to write a book, and the fact that many people read my article was mind-blowing at the time.
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My mother had passed away when I was 23, and it was pretty early on in my therapy career.
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And I d been taught to really build on people s strengths.
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As a therapist, they said, if somebody comes into your office,
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Make sure that you point out what they re doing well and tell them to keep doing that.
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And I thought that sounded like a good idea, but it was really when I went through my own grief and loss that I thought, when I m feeling like I m at the bottom of the barrel, the last thing I want is for somebody to tell me what to do.
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Like a long list of things to do felt even more overwhelming.
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And one of the things I noticed about people who were healing and working through things, it was often about what they didn t do.
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People who didn t have certain bad habits tended to do better.
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So I started learning about that.
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And I was glad that I did because it was three years to the day that my mom died, that my 26-year-old husband died of a heart attack.
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Obviously at 26, you re not supposed to have a heart attack.
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And it just felt incredibly cruel that it was on the three-year anniversary of the day that my mom died.
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What were the chances that would ever happen?
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And it took a long time.
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My heart was broken.
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It took a long time to figure out what to do.
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which way was up and which way was down.
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And one of my struggles was without my husband, I really couldn t pay the bills.
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We d already bought a house by that point.
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And I thought I can t pay the mortgage as a therapist, but also as a therapist, you can only work so many hours a week.
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You can t really work 80 hours as a therapist and still do a good job.
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So I needed a side hustle, which became freelance writing.
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So I started writing articles.
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so that I could keep the lights on basically.
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And most of the articles I wrote were boring articles about like 10 things to do on your trip to New York City.
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And I wrote them for other websites, but I was really like at the bottom of the barrel one day.
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I had just gotten news that my father-in-law was going to be facing terminal cancer.
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His prognosis at that point was pretty poor.
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And I just remember thinking, this isn t fair.
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Why do I have to lose somebody else?
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And I sat down and I wrote a list of what mentally strong people don t do.
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It was supposed to just be a letter to myself, but I found it really helpful.
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So over the course of the coming days, I would just read it.
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When I woke up in the morning, I d just read this list and be like, okay, Amy, as long as you don t do these things today, you ll be okay and you ll get through the day.
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And then it dawned on me, well, if this is helpful to me, maybe it would help somebody else.
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So I published it online.
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They paid me $15 for it on a website that really wasn t well-known at the time.
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And I just walked away from it thinking that was going to be it.
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Never imagined that it would get picked up by other outlets like Forbes and Business Insider and a whole bunch of other places.
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And as it just went viral at the time, millions and millions of views.
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every single day and then it led to the opportunity to write my first book.
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So needless to say, I never set out to write a book, never thought I d be writing a book, but that one article has now turned into a series of books and I get to still talk to people like you about mental strength and I m thrilled that I get to do that.
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I understand you have a new book that s coming out in December that s for couples.
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Can you share a little bit about that and why a listener, especially if they re in a relationship, would want to read this book?
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Yeah.
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So most of my other work has always just been about on developing mental strength as an individual.
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But one of the things we know in the research is pretty clear.
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The person that you re in a partnership with makes a huge difference in your ability to build mental strength.
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And if the two of you work together as a team,
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you can accomplish some pretty cool things.
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But as a therapist, I would have so many people come into my therapy office who were like, if only my partner would do X, Y, and Z, then I could finally be happy.
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Or if you can change my partner, like nobody comes to couples therapy saying, Hey, here s what I want to work on.
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They always bring in their partner and say, here s what my partner needs to work on.
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So I really wanted to write a couple s book that would be about how do you manage that?
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You can t change your partner, but you can certainly influence them.
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And how can you work together to build mental strength?
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So my next book is going to be 13 Things Mentally Strong Couples Don t Do.
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And one of the things I m really excited about is that I partner with BetterHelp.
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So if anybody pre-orders the book on my website, you just go to amymorinlcsw.com slash couples and show that you ve pre-ordered the book and we ll give you a month of therapy at BetterHelp completely for free.
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Oh man, that s a great offer.
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And I just have to acknowledge BetterHelp has been one of my sponsors too.
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And I love sponsorships that actually do good in the world and help people.
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So it s one I love to endorse.
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Well, out of that book, what do you think out of the 13 is the most important one for couples to be aware of?
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I think it would be not to try to fix the other person.
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I talk a lot about sort of the subtle ways we do that, where somebody thinks, well, my partner has more potential than they see in themselves, so I want to motivate them or I want to push them to do things and the damage that causes.
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And so part of a healthy relationship is, yes, you can point out things that maybe your partner could do better, but then it s about acceptance and knowing that you can t force them to change.
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And when you see if your partner has, say, unhealthy habits or some destructive tendencies, there are plenty of ways you can influence them.
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And it s about pointing out the things they re doing well sometimes.
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Sometimes it s ignoring the negative behavior that you see.
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And sometimes it s about having a direct conversation of, hey, I m concerned about you and here s why, but then dropping it, not nagging them or constantly pointing out and using the, I told you so attitude that we re tempted to do sometimes.
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Well, thank you for sharing that.
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And I know many people are familiar with physical strength.
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In fact, I just interviewed Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, and we talked a lot about how strength training can lead to longevity.
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But mental strength is not a term that everyone fully understands.
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How do you define it?
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And why is it so critical in our lives?
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You re absolutely right.
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A lot of people are confused about mental strength.
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They think that if you have a mental health issue like anxiety or depression, it means you re weak.
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And that s not it at all.
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Just like you could go to the gym and work on becoming physically strong.
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You might still get high blood pressure someday.
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Very much the same.
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But mental strength, there s three parts to it.
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The way you think, the way you feel, and the way you behave.
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In terms of our thoughts, you have something like 60,000 thoughts a day, according to research.
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I don t know exactly how they calculated that, but we know a lot of the thoughts we have are exactly the same thoughts today that we had yesterday.
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We tend to rethink the same things over and over again, and we get into these patterns, but a lot of the things you think aren t true.
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Your brain will say, oh, you can t do that, or your brain will make catastrophic predictions about what might happen.
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and can keep you bogged down.
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So part of building mental strength is recognizing the thoughts that are true versus the ones that might be irrational and about making sure that your thinking patterns are healthy.
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We all have opportunities to develop healthier thinking patterns.
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The second part is about our emotions.
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And knowing that you don t have to be happy all the time.
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In fact, you ll be a happier person if you sometimes let yourself be sad, but you don t wanna stay stuck there either.
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When we get stuck in a, say, an emotion of anxiety or we get stuck in fear, it can really cause us to take either unhealthy action or no action at all.
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So it s about knowing, yes, I can manage my emotions in a healthy way.
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And then the third part is about our behavior and the action that we take.
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Because sometimes people are like, well, positive thinking is the cure for everything.
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Well, it s not.
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You really have to combine it with some sort of positive action if you want to change your life.
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So sometimes it s about knowing when you re tired, do you stay home from the gym?
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Is that good self-care?
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Or do you push yourself to go to the gym anyway because you really want to prove to your brain you can still work out when you re tired?
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And the answer is, it depends.
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It depends on the person and what your goals are.
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But it s about knowing that just because you don t feel like doing something doesn t mean you can t do it anyway.
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And one of the things, Amy, I ve been really diving into a lot over the past couple of weeks is the concept of mattering.
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We re feeling significant and valued in the world.
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It seems like intrinsically it s tied to our mental well-being.
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How do you view the relationship between feeling like we matter and our overall mental strength?
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Oh, that is so important.
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I m glad that you brought that up, John, because so many people will be like, well, I don t have anything to contribute to the world or I have to wait until I feel better until my depression is better before I could get out there and do anything.
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But we all need a reason to get out of bed in the morning and not just earning money.
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If that s your sole motivation, that doesn t really mean that you matter because what are you going to do with the money?
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So we all need a reason.
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Am I contributing to the world somehow?
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And we don t necessarily, I don t think people need some sort of huge purpose in life, because I think some people get bogged down into thinking, well, I don t know my life s purpose.
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And you don t have to say you re going to change the world or build a school in another country or anything like that.
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Your purpose might just be that you smile and make people s day better once in a while, or that you check in on your friends.
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You re somehow contributing to making the world just a little bit better than maybe it was yesterday.
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So for people that I work with in my therapy office, we ll try to figure those little things out.
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What can you do today?
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And when people develop some sort of strategy that helps them feel like they matter, their whole world changes.
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I ve worked with people who aren t able to work for one reason or another, a physical disability or a mental health problem.
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And so they ll often say, I sit home and I watch TV all day.
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And they really don t have that reason to get out of bed.
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So we ll try to figure out, well, what else could you do?
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And I worked with this one woman and she just started knitting scarves and she would donate them to a homeless shelter when she was done.
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Her entire world changed because now she knew like, when I get up in the day, I have a job to do.
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And that makes such a big difference.
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Or for elderly people in a nursing home, if they have a plant to take care of, they live way longer.
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Right?
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Just because they have a plant to water every day.
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So we all need to know, what am I doing in this world?
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And life is short.
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So how am I going to contribute and make it a better place?
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And we all have skills, strategies, things we can do with our time so that we do matter.
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I find for me one of the easiest ways, if I ever feel like I m in a state of unmattering, is to go out and help someone.
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Because oftentimes we get this feeling that in order to serve people, we have to serve a large amount of people.
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But to me, it s a ripple effect.
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If you go out and help one person, I think it pays it forward and it ends up creating a ripple effect from that one action.
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And it certainly makes you feel the compounding effects of the difference that you ve made on another person s life.
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I think so too, because I think sometimes people think it has to be like a very formal way of volunteering.
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Like, I m going to serve in the soup kitchen on Thanksgiving.
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But it doesn t necessarily have to be that.
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You can certainly say you have an elderly neighbor, maybe you mow their lawn, or you have somebody who needs help right in the moment carrying something heavy.
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Like, you can certainly help people throughout the day and just look for those opportunities, and I guarantee they re there.
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Yeah, I have a great story along those lines about a friend of mine.
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He happened to randomly enter this restaurant, not knowing that there was a local television crew filming what people would do when they re faced in situations of what they give an act of kindness or not.
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And so they purposely set this thing up where this woman orders all this food and she s got multiple kids and they wanted to see what the reaction of people in the restaurant would be.
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And my friend, Tony.
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immediately upon recognizing it, goes over and takes all the things from her, is comforting the kids, helping her throughout the whole thing, and they end up showing him on TV later that night, unbeknownst to him, as the good Samaritan who helped someone out.
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Couldn t pay for a positive press like that, but it just shows you how important kindness and these meaningful acts are to the world.
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Absolutely.
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And just going through the line at the grocery store, give the clerk a compliment.
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Notice something good about them.
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And you smile at people and look them in the eye.
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I think so often we go throughout our day with our head down, just trying to get to what s next without really noticing what s going on around us.
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But if you notice, yeah, there s always opportunities to be kind to other people.
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Amy, on this show, we talk a lot about the power of intentionality and how it interweaves with grit.
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In your view, how does mental strength interplay with grit and our intentions?
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Yeah, I think there s definitely a huge overlap.
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And one of the things when it comes to grit, like I think it s so important to have grit and to keep working hard.
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But when it comes to mental strength, I think one of the key differences is recognizing that it s okay to give up sometimes.
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Sometimes people who are too gritty tend to keep going long after they should quit.
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So for example, if I start a new business tomorrow and my business isn t doing well,
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And I m suffering because of it.
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It s okay to have the mental strength to say, you know what, this was not a good idea.
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I don t need to have the grittiness to keep going long after I should have given up.
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And I see people who get stuck in that pattern where they ll say, I already announced I was going to run a marathon and now I ve torn this muscle in my leg, but I m going to hobble along anyway, because I have grit.
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And I want them to know it s okay.
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Sometimes it takes a lot of courage to give up, to abandon your goals, to say that didn t work right now.
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I m going to focus on something else.
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But being intentional is just so important too.
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How often do we go through life without really knowing what s going to be next?
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And we fly by the seat of our pants.
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stepping back and saying, what s the bigger picture?
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So I always encourage people, sometimes zoom out.
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Like we get so caught up in the day-to-day hustle and bustle that we forget like, what are my values?
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Am I living according to those things?
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And time goes by so quickly, right?
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I just said, I lived on a boat for seven years and it feels like a blur, but so many things in life happen where we think I ll do that later, or I ll start taking care of that.
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when things slow down in life or I ll make sure that I do that at a later point in my life when the kids leave home or something like that without really stopping and saying, what about right now?
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How am I living right now?
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And what habits do I have that I want to change?
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And how can I make that happen?
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And it doesn t just happen magically.
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You have to be intentional about it.
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I m so glad you brought up that bit about perspective because over the weekend, I happened to go back from my Naval Academy reunion and got to see one of my really good friends, Chris Cassidy, who happens to be an astronaut.
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I wrote about Chris in a chapter of my upcoming book called The Perspective Harnesser.
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And I never forget one of the stories Chris told me about the first time he was on the space shuttle.
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and looking down he happened to be flying over the United States and over New York City and he just pictured someone down there who was stuck in traffic and all they could think about was
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that micro moment in their life and how upset they were being there, et cetera.
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And he s looking at this from far, far above and just seeing that in the big scheme of things, it really doesn t matter.
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And how much the way we look at things and how we harness that perspective shapes our intentionality to take a situation like that commute, which could be in the moment, something that someone s angry about.
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They re frustrated.
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They just want to get home.
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and realize that it could be an opportunity for them to meditate.
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It could be an opportunity for them to let go of emotions rather than angle it at someone else.
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So I m glad you brought up that whole aspect of harnessing your perspective for your better good.
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Talk about zooming out, right?
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To be able to look at it from outer space and think, yeah.
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And the problems that we have aren t unique to us.
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There are millions of people who are struggling with very similar things at any given moment.
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But sometimes we think, oh, my life is harder than everybody else s, or why do I have to go through all of these things?
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But in the bigger picture of life, a lot of those little things have the opportunity to either get us bogged down and caught up into the weeds, or yeah, we can use them as opportunities as well.
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That s a perfect segue to where I wanted to go next.
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On this show, we discuss the topic of habits a ton, and specifically how detrimental habits hold us back.
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I recently interviewed Dr. Jud Brewer, who I m sure you re familiar with, episode 339, about two things that cause
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a lot of people issues when they become habitual, and that is fear and constant worry.
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In your work, you often talk about habits and behaviors that mentally strong people should avoid.
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How does one s sense of mattering, like we talked about before, influence their vulnerability to navigate these negative habits, such as fears or worries?
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Oh, that s a great question.
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I think for a lot of people, they think that they re not good enough in the therapy office.
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Almost everything that we talk about often boils down to people feeling like I m not good enough and therefore either I don t matter, or they also then tend to think, well, my bad habits don t matter as much, or I m not good enough because I m not worthy of building a better life, or I m not good enough because I can t handle my anxiety, so therefore I have to always
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indulge in this thing that I do when I m anxious or lonely or scared.
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So I think all of it really comes together where people feel like, all right, I matter enough that I can be kind to myself and I matter enough that I should address these issues instead of just ignoring them and sweeping them under the rug.
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I know so many people get caught up into thinking that their lives don t matter.
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So therefore, who cares if I struggle with this issue or who cares if I never solve this problem?
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And sometimes it s about helping them figure out like deep down you care and here s how we can make that different.
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And here s how if you start making these changes in your life, you re going to feel like you matter.
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But sometimes you have to take that leap.
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I m going to change my life by quitting drugs or alcohol.
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Even though I don t feel like I matter now, there s a chance that once I do these things, I ll start to feel better.
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So sometimes it s about changing your behavior first with that little thread of faith that maybe if I change my behavior, my life will get better.
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It is so interesting how all you have to do is do a small tweak in a behavior and the impact of it over weeks and months can be huge in your life.
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And I think that s something we often fail to realize.
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People want to understand where do you start because I think it s one of the most difficult things to do.
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But I think we often get over consumed with that we need to make this huge change when it can be a slight maneuver in a different direction that
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over time will then lead to a series of actions that lead to bigger events.
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Do you find that to be true as well?
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Definitely.
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And I m guilty of this in my own life too, that sometimes I want to do too much too fast.
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That s how you burn out when you decide, all right, starting January 1st, I m going to change my entire life and I m not really going to plan for it.
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I m just going to do it.
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When we may try to change everything and it flips our entire world upside down, it s not sustainable.
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We re much better off making those little changes and finding the strategies that work best for us.
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So if I want to go to the gym more often, I listen to my favorite podcasts while I m at the gym.
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So at the end of the day, when I m like, oh, I don t really feel like going to the gym today, but I do feel like listening to my favorite podcast, so I can get myself there.
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Or if we start to pair things with habits we already have, like we know hopefully people brush their teeth twice a day.
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So while you re brushing your teeth, what else can you do?
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Meditate.
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Or maybe right after you brush your teeth, you spend 10 minutes
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listening to your favorite podcast or app or something like that just so that you can get yourself in a good headspace before you go to bed or before you start your day.
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So there are all these things we can do and yeah, it absolutely doesn t have to be these huge leaps because sometimes people will say to me in my therapy office, okay, I m ready to change my life and they give me this whole list of things they want to do and they want to start next Monday.
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Sometimes they re like, let s start smaller.
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It s a little thing.
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What are you going to do after work instead?
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Or when you communicate with your partner, how do you want to do that a little bit differently?
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And then it often has a snowball effect.
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Once you start those little things, then it leads to bigger and bigger changes over time, but you don t want to do the shock to your system.
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necessarily.
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There are some cases where somebody s like, I m going to move across the country and completely change everything all at once.
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And sometimes there are those experiences where people are like, okay, because I m in a new place, it becomes easier to change my habits.
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And they do make bigger changes all at once, but those are the outliers.
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Well, thank you for sharing that.
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And Amy, one of the things I have seen on this podcast since I started about three years ago, and I m sure you ve seen this longer than I have, given that you are a therapist, is that mental health disorders across the board are on the rise, and they only seem to be getting worse.
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How do you see the evolution of mental health discussions in the context of broader mental health awareness?
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Oh yeah, that s a great point because we know from the research that mental health issues have definitely gotten worse over time.
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They re more prevalent.
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And even though we ve had say the invention of like antidepressants and more medication options, more treatment options, mental health issues are still more prevalent than ever.
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Of course, there s some theories to that.
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For one, our grandparents weren t necessarily diagnosed with mental health issues because we didn t have the same options available that we have now.
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But part of it is also the world that we live in.
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that sitting behind a computer all day long, having our phones on all the time, we spend less time in nature, we spend less time socializing with people in person.
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People are struggling with the need to buy more things and financial stress and the world is changing.
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I think one big issue too is the news.
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It used to be that you d sit down as a family and maybe the news would be on at 6 p.m.
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and by 6.30 it was over.
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We know that having consuming news for a few minutes
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increases our stress hormones in our body, our heart rate goes up, and it takes a while to de-stress.
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Well, now we live in a world where people are getting alerts on their phones all day long and it keeps you in a heightened state of alert as you can easily check your phone or you re checking social media and people are talking about the news almost constantly.
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And
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the idea that we re always constantly connected to other people.
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And I m not against technology.
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I think we have an incredible ability to use our smartphones as a way to build mental strength every single day.
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And we have our laptops that can help us become mentally healthier, but only if we use them correctly.
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And our world isn t designed to encourage us to do that.
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It s designed to keep us hooked on social media and to keep us coming back for news.
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So I think there are so many factors right now in the world.
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I m glad that we re talking more about mental health and that people are starting to normalize it.
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And that therapy has become something that s not nearly as embarrassing for people to go to or as scary.
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About 20 years ago, when I started as a therapist, a lot of people felt like if you went to therapy, it meant you were broken and it was embarrassing.
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Or if you went to a therapist, there s something really wrong with you.
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I think that s come full circle where people are like, I m doing well in life, but I m still going to check in with the therapist just to see if there s anything I want to improve on, or I just want to run something past somebody.
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And just like, if you go to the dentist, nobody s like making fun of you for getting your teeth checked.
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Now we re like, oh, that s good.
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You re talking to a therapist.
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That s a wonderful thing.
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But I do think we run the risk of, say, celebrities who are like bragging about, well, I used to have panic attacks, but I m better now.
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And it almost makes it seem like you shouldn t talk about a mental health issue in the moment.
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It s OK to talk about I battled depression 20 years ago, but look at me now.
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I m great.
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But for a lot of people, mental health issues are ongoing.
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It might be something that they experienced for decades.
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So I like when we see people talking about it like right now, when somebody can say, I m struggling right now and here s what I m working on, here s what I m doing in a way that makes it feel like it s normal.
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Because it s much easier to talk about it in the past tense, something that you ve overcome and you re doing amazing.
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But that s not always what happens.
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Sometimes people struggle on and off for the rest of their lives with certain mental health issues.
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I know for me when I was younger and I would hear people tell stories that they were depressed or something else.
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It was hard to fathom what they were going through because I had never myself had those feelings.
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But as I got older in my life and faced the challenges that many of us face with adversity, trauma, loss, I reached a point where I was so emotionally numb, I forgot who I was.
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And I know people around me
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I didn t realize it because on the outside I looked like I was perfect, but inside I felt like an empty shell.
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And I think it s hard sometimes for maybe some of the listeners who haven t had to deal with feelings like that to understand this from the other side of how real this is and how debilitating it can be in someone s life.
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Because I lost the urge to want to go to work, to want to be a parent,
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want to be the best partner and it s something that I wouldn t wish on anyone else and one of the main reasons I do this show to try to help people see this from a different perspective like you being on this show.
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What are your thoughts about that?
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Absolutely, that people will often be like, well, just get some fresh air.
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This is the advice they ll give to somebody who has some depression or you shouldn t stay in bed so long.
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And the comments like that often are just so frustrating for people who are struggling because when other people clearly don t understand, they offer advice.
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I had somebody that had a severe anxiety disorder and her mother kept telling her, you re probably just dehydrated.
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You should drink more water.
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she doesn t understand.
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And so then it s every time I talk to her, it feels invalidating or it s tough to take that quote unquote advice from somebody.
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And so for somebody who hasn t been there, I think it s important to just recognize like, how did you feel in the worst moment of your life?
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And what if that were amplified and you felt like that every single day, we all have a bad day or we go through a rough time.
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And people will be like, yeah, but I didn t stay stuck in that.
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Well, what if you couldn t get out of it?
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What if you had just say lost a loved one and you felt like you were really heartbroken, but you felt like that day in and day out and you didn t know why.
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And it just kept getting worse and worse and that anything you tried to do maybe didn t work for a while.
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And when people can think about it, I think from that angle, it just gives them at least a little glimpse of what somebody goes through because sometimes those things don t work.
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We ll say, and as a therapist, we ll encourage people to try different things like exercise can often be a good remedy for depression, but when people are really depressed, like they re not going to go running two miles.
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And so it s tough for people to even imagine that anything would work because your brain lies to you.
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And when you re struggling with depression or anxiety, your brain really lies to you.
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It will be like, well, no sense in trying this medication because it s not going to work for you.
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It works for other people, but not you.
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Or when you re anxious about something and your body s reacting.
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and your heart s racing and your palms are sweaty and you can t even think straight and somebody s expecting you to write a report for work or they re asking if you can give a presentation at a meeting next week and you feel like you can t even breathe let alone do these other things yet if you don t go to work you re going to lose your job and it just it s so difficult and so
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My hope is that we will develop more empathy and understanding of people who are struggling and not place blame on them for not being able to, quote unquote, dig themselves out of this.
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I m glad you brought up work because it was a tangent I wanted to go down at some point.
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I believe today so many people are gravitating towards extrinsic motivation driven in part by today s age of social media and also instant gratification.
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But I think it s also caught up in how we perceive our careers, how we need to go about creating them is we get so focused on the outputs of what it will give us, whether it s money, material things, etc.
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that we often lose touch of the intrinsic things that really should be driving us.
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How do you think people can maintain mental strength when they re constantly exposed to the achievements and highlights they see so much throughout their day on social media?
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Oh, that s a tough one, isn t it?
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And especially when you re in the world that you and I are, when you have a podcast and you write books and you create things, it s easy to think, oh, this person has a bigger following than I do, or look at this amazing thing.
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Should I be doing that?
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So I think it s really important to take a step back and notice when we re comparing ourselves to other people and to recognize that it s not a competition.
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Like there s no prize at the end of your life for having the most followers on Instagram or for having the most read book on the planet.
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Like there just is none.
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And recognizing like, what are my values in life?
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And when I m 100 years old and I look back over my life, what will I be most proud of?
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The money that I made that one year?
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Or will it be more like the time I spent with friends and family?
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Or maybe it is the contribution that you made.
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And part of that contribution means working hard, but you did something that you felt really impacted people.
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So therefore, you re okay with working really hard.
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But again, if money s your only motivator, we know that s not a good motivator for the long term.
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That s why people burn out.
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And there s research behind the fact that when we look at other people as our competition, it takes a huge toll on our psychological well-being.
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You re much more likely to experience mental health problems if you re looking at other people and you re like, oh, that person s better than I am.
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But there s a slight shift you can make that really makes a big difference in the way that you re
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brain perceives that and the way you feel and in your own performance.
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And it s basically you look at somebody else as an opinion holder, not your competitor.
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So if you see somebody who s doing well, and they re on social media, you might think, well, that person has information or skills I could learn from.
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Now that person is better than I am, or that person is, I could never be like that person, those sorts of thoughts tend to drag us down.
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So just that little switch in, all right, that person has something I could learn can help us.
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But it s also about just being more aware of our habits.
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If you re
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constantly following people and it causes you to feel that sense of competition, maybe unmute them or unfollow them for a while too.
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Thank you for sharing that, Amy.
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And another thing I wanted to talk about is our modern society today is grappling with what many term as the epidemic of loneliness, where despite being more connected, as we just discussed, than we ve ever been before, many feel isolated and detached.
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From your perspective on mental strength and resilience,
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How can individuals combat this pervasive sense of loneliness and what strategies or habits would you recommend to help them foster genuine connections and emotional well-being?
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Definitely, and I think COVID
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for a lot of people brought this to the surface where people are like, oh, I m definitely lonely.
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And it made sense because people were using video chats as opposed to meeting with people in person.
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But I think one of the biggest misconceptions for people is they think that just being around people is the cure for loneliness.
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Well, you should go out and volunteer or you should join an activity, find some like-minded people.
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A lot of people are feeling lonely these days when they re in a crowded room or when they re hanging out with people, they go to dinner with friends and they just feel really disconnected.
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And part of that is because our relationships these days can be quite superficial.
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And when you feel like you can t really tell somebody that you re struggling or you can t talk about your problems, you re probably gonna feel fairly lonely when you re hanging out with people.
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And it s okay to have the fun friends or the people that you only talk to about business and that sort of a thing, but we do need to have people that we feel understand us.
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And for so many people, there s that wall where you think, well, I ve been friends with this person for five years.
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Both of us always say, hey, I m great.
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How are you?
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And we don t really connect.
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How do you actually connect with people?
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And it s forming those connections that helps.
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So sometimes it s starting with saying, I m stressed out lately, but how are you doing?
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Sometimes something as simple as that gets the conversation started because I guarantee if you say I m stressed out lately, the other person s going to say something like, so am I, here s what I m going through.
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And if we can talk about our struggles like that, I think then we feel like we re actually able to connect.
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As a therapist, so many people come into my office and they ll say, but nobody can relate to what I m going through or nobody would understand that this is my experience.
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And then the next person comes into my office and says almost the exact same thing.
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Because they don t talk about it with the people in their lives, they often feel like they are completely alone in how they re feeling and the kinds of thoughts that they re having.
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So I think one of our cures for loneliness is definitely connecting with people in person more often.
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But when we do, to also make sure that we have people that we can feel like we can be vulnerable with.
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I think that s such an important point because I think so much of us get caught into this loop of maybe we re hanging out with our friends who are drinking buddies or maybe we re hanging out with our friends now that it s football season who all they want to do is talk about the NFL or MLB playoffs or whatever it may be.
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But I ve oftentimes found it s difficult to find people who genuinely want to connect with you on a deeper level.
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And those relationships, for me, I cherish.
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They come few and far between, so those small handful of people
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to me are the most dearest people I have because they re the ones that you want to turn to when you are experiencing loss, when you are experiencing uncertainty, when your inner critic is getting the best of you.
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But I think a lot of people don t lean into that and instead they stay in these relationships that are at the 50,000 foot level.
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Do you find that s common?
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I do, and sometimes it s a protective measure.
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People have been hurt.
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Maybe they confided in somebody and that person wasn t helpful or they did something malicious with that information.
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At other times, people are just like, I m a private person, so talking to somebody about what s going bad in my life isn t helpful.
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And a big fear that a lot of people have these days is talking about their struggles because they say, I don t want to be negative.
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My friends are all having fun and I don t want to bring up the fact that my marriage isn t going well or that I m struggling financially because I don t want to drag everybody down.
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But like talking about real life stuff isn t dragging other people down.
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It s 100% okay to do that.
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And it doesn t make you a negative person.
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It makes you real.
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It makes you human because yes, while it s fun to talk about the latest football game,
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What s really important sometimes is to then be able to say, I m struggling and to try to just pick out like the one person maybe that you think would be most open to that conversation.
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And you start there and see what happens.
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And when we do that, I think slowly, you don t have to do it all at once and spill everything, but you might find that when you open the door and take a couple steps, the other person reciprocates, and then you d feel a little safer in continuing those sorts of conversations.
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Well, I appreciate that so much.
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And I wanted to turn our attention to another one of your books, 13 Things Mentally Strong Women Don t Do.
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And given some of societal challenges that women face from pay gaps to inclusion, what do you think are some of the first steps a female listener can do if they want to cultivate psychological toughness?
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So I think it s about recognizing that there are barriers in society and that there are challenges that women face that maybe men don t.
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And acknowledging that, yes, those are absolutely true.
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We don t want to deny reality.
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And then figuring out, and what do I do about that?
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And how do I move forward?
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So little things like we know when it comes to women are less likely to say, accept a compliment.
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If you say, Hey, I like your shoes, women are likely to be like, Oh, I love your pants.
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Or we put ourselves down.
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Oh, I bought these at a yard sale.
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They re not worth much anyway.
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Or we re really quick to be like, Oh, so-and-so recommended it for me.
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Or they really helped me out with this.
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Cause we don t want to take credit for it.
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So just being able to be aware of those little habits, no, except to have it, just say thank you.
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And it feels uncomfortable if you re not used to it, but it makes a big difference.
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or knowing what we know about, say, LinkedIn profiles.
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If a man is much more likely to be on the exaggeration end of how many skills he has or what his experience is, and women tend to really undermine themselves with playing down their success and being like, yeah, well, I did that for three years, but it wasn t a big deal, or I got lucky when that happened.
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So about knowing, no, you can put the facts out there and that s okay.
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And you re not being prideful or boastful.
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You re just telling people about your accomplishments and that s okay.
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So I think those little things in life about just being more comfortable in our skin and making that known and knowing that you don t have to shrink yourself for other people s comfort goes a long way.
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And a follow-on to that is that sexism and social pressures can be hefty burdens.
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How do these impact a woman s mental strength and how do you suggest to navigate them effectively?
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One of the studies that really made me decide to write this book is when they ask five-year-olds to point out who looks brilliant.
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They show them a whole array of pictures of both men and women, and they ask these five-year-olds to point to somebody who s brilliant.
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And all the little girls tend to point to a woman, and all the little boys point to a man.
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And then at age seven, they ask the same question.
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They asked these seven-year-olds, who s brilliant?
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And all the little boys and all the little girls all point to a man.
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And you think, well, what happens between the ages of five and seven?
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Well, that s when we go to school.
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And when you start kindergarten, you learn about astronauts and scientists and presidents.
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And most of them are all men.
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And so that does take a toll on the way that we think about ourselves and about our potential and about the world.
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So I think it s so important to recognize those things and to start creating change and figuring out what can we do to make sure that there are some positive changes in the world?
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And I feel like we all have the power to make those changes and to start changing society as a whole.
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And it could be as simple as if you have a niece in your life, how do you influence them or
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If you have the opportunity to give a talk at a Girl Scouts group to talk about careers that women can have, I think all of those things make a big difference in the way that we re raising girls these days.
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Well, I think that s a great segue into your book, 13 Things Mentally Strong Parents Don t Do.
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In episode 335, I interviewed journalist and author Jennifer Wallace.
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I m not sure if you re familiar with her.
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Yeah.
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Yes, she was on my show as well.
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Well, she has a great book, as you re aware, never enough, which is all about the impact of toxic achievement culture.
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And I ve seen this firsthand because it s something my own kids experienced when they were in their teens.
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How do you think we can help kids break free from this cycle?
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It s so important because I do think kids these days are under so much pressure to feel like
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they have to achieve.
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And I see it in parents too, who ll be like, well, if my kid forgot a homework assignment, they re not going to get into college.
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And if they don t get into college, they re going to live in my basement and play video games forever.
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So they feel like if their kid forgets their homework, they have to intervene quickly.
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I m going to run it up to the school, or I m going to take my kid out of school so that they don t get in trouble for not having their science homework done in the afternoon.
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So I see parents going to great lengths, and to parents  credit, when I was a kid, we all forgot our homework once in a while, and the world didn t stop turning, because nobody s parents were necessarily running to the school and racing there to make sure that their kids had that competitive edge.
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In today s world, it s true.
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If you don t do these things for your kid, you might be the only parent who s not doing it, and your kid might get a zero and all the other kids get 100, and it can then feel even more pressure-like that somehow your kid is falling behind.
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But I think it just goes back to knowing what your values are as a parent.
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And sometimes I ll talk to kids during the day and then I ll give a talk to the parents at night when schools will hire me.
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And I ll often ask the kids a question and I ll say, if your parent came into your parent-teacher conference tomorrow, would they rather that the teacher said you re the kindest kid in the class or the smartest kid in the class?
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And 95% of the kids are like, oh, my parents want me to be the smartest kid in the class.
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And then in the evening, I ll ask the parents the same question, what would you rather?
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And the majority of parents will say, I want my kids to be the kindest kid in the class.
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And then I have some parents that are like, well, I want my kid to be both.
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But and then I ll encourage them, well, ask your kid what they think your answer is.
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And either way is fine.
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If you want your kid to be the smartest kid in class, that s your values.
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But for parents who really value raising a kind kid, I think it s important to take a step back sometimes and say, well, how often do I ask them, were you kind to somebody at recess today?
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Or am I more likely to ask them, how d you do on your science test today?
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And there s so much emphasis on achievement throughout our lives that it s tough to really then be proactive and intentional about saying, okay, if I value kindness and being a good friend, then I should be asking about that.
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Or I should be looking for opportunities to make sure that as a family, we re working on that too.
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And that we re demonstrating that, that it s not just about achievement all the time.
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Yeah, I can t agree more.
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And one of my kids had taken almost 20 AP classes and we were faced with the situation where it wasn t the parents who were putting the pressure on the child, it was the child feeling that they had to do this.
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because they wanted to get into the top schools, and then it s just a compounding thing because it s not only the AP classes and the grades, it s the volunteer hours, it s where you re showing that you re in the right social clubs, you re in the right athletic opportunities, and it just spirals out of control because there s only so much time in the day that a person has to do any of these things.
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If a parent finds themselves in the situation where their child is caught in this, what piece of advice would you offer parents to ensure that they re not inadvertently inhibiting their child s mental growth?
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So I think it s about having conversations to figure out, does your child actually love to play all of these sports or are they doing it because it s going to look good on their transcripts?
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Or do they actually like to be the class president plus in all of these clubs or is it more of the outside pressure?
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So I think with younger kids, you can set limits.
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Like you can do one activity per quarter, or we re going to work on two sports a year.
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And it s okay to set those limits and let kids then have some free time and make it known we re going to have family time on the weekends.
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We re not just going to be running from one soccer league to the next.
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And for older kids, I think, again, it s about just having those conversations.
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What are we afraid of?
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If you didn t do enough activities, what would happen?
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Or what are you hoping?
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If you do 17 activities every quarter that you re going to get into Harvard, and if you get into Harvard, you re going to get an amazing job someday.
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That s one path to success, but what are some other paths to success?
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And for us to talk about our own failures and limitations can be quite freeing for kids.
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When you make a mistake, talk about it.
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Or it s okay to talk about about times when you fail or things that you ve tried and knowing that if their ultimate goal doesn t happen, if your kid is really set on going to a specific college, what s the plan B and to share your own stories of maybe you didn t, I know I didn t get into the grad school I wanted to go to, but.
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It worked out for me in the end.
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So having those conversations of what you had hoped for, maybe how you failed and just opening up their mind a little bit to knowing that there s more than one path to success.
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Before we ended today, I did want to talk to you about the topic of vulnerability.
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Because I remember when I was earlier in my career, vulnerability was like a four letter word that you didn t want to say.
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However, I recently interviewed author Jacob Morgan about the need for leaders to have vulnerability.
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However, I think we ve gone on a pendulum swift from not talking about vulnerability to it being everywhere in the way that we re talking about people needing to have more of it.
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In your perspective, how should listeners view and embrace their vulnerabilities so they put it in the right perspective?
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Ooh, I m glad you said that too.
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I actually just did an article with Fox News about oversharing at work and the dangers of that, because I do think there s a balance to be struck.
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And sometimes people will overshare.
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They say too much to too many people.
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And I ve even heard people brag about that.
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Well, I m an oversharer, as if it s like a wonderful attribute.
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And I think genuine vulnerability isn t about, say, announcing everything to everyone all the time, but it s about knowing who you want to tell and why you want to tell them.
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to admit that you re maybe struggling with something.
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So on one end of the spectrum, you have maybe a leader who says, no, I m not scared about this change we re making.
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What could go wrong?
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Everything s going to go great.
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Meanwhile, they re standing there like in a cold sweat because they re actually scared too about a big change the company s making.
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So it s okay to say, I have some concerns as well, or I m a little anxious about this also.
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Like those sorts of ways to be vulnerability with just making sure that the words that come out of your mouth are in line with your behavior and your feelings.
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It s one of the things we can tell when somebody s like, I m so happy about this, but you can tell they re not happy about it.
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That leads us to then not believe the things that they re saying because we see them as inauthentic.
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So I think if we want to be vulnerable in a healthy way, sometimes it s about just making sure that you are able to be honest.
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And if it s a case where you can t talk about something publicly, you might make that known.
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Like, I have some feelings about this and I m not in a space to talk about them right now.
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That still means that you re being vulnerable because you re not saying, no, I m good.
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I m happy about this.
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So to make sure that we have some boundaries so that we aren t announcing everything.
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If you had a childhood wound that hasn t healed yet, maybe you don t work that out in business meetings.
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But on the other hand, also knowing that we can talk about feelings at work for so long.
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there was the idea that feelings don t have a place in the office.
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But that s ridiculous.
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The way that you feel when you walk into work that day is going to affect every business decision that you make.
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We know that you should never negotiate when you re sad because you re going to be a terrible negotiator.
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You should be careful of the decisions you make when you re anxious.
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Even if you re anxious about your grandmother s health issues, when you get to work, your anxiety spills over.
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So if your boss says, hey, I have this great opportunity for you,
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You re much more likely to be like, no, thank you, because you re anxious about grandma.
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So it s really important to just take notice of how your emotions are affecting you and to try to make sure that your words are in line with the feelings that you have, but to know that you don t have to announce everything to everyone either.
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Amy, in your experience, what s the most underappreciated aspect of mental strength that people should be more aware of?
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I think it s about not always thinking that you re going to win, but feeling like you ll be okay even if you don t.
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So I ll hear a lot of people say things like, you should never have self-doubt.
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You should always be convinced that you re going to win at all costs.
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But I think part of mental strength sometimes is knowing that you have limitations and it s knowing that, yeah, I might not win, but I m going to try anyway.
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Even if I don t win, I could still be okay regardless.
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So I think it s about letting go of some of the ego pieces and knowing that being mentally strong isn t the same as just acting tough all the time.
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Lastly, I haven t done this in a few episodes, but I m going to do a short rapid fire round if that s okay with you.
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Sounds fun.
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Okay.
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What s one daily habit you swear by for maintaining your mental strength?
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I run a timed mile, so I just run as fast as I can every single day.
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Sounds like torture to me.
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How about a book other than yours that has had a profound impact on your life?
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Oh, I would say Mindset by Carol Dweck.
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Okay.
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That s always a great one.
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If you could have a chat with a historical figure about mental strength, who would it be?
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Oh, that s a good question.
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Kind of a fan of Milton Hershey.
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So I would say I would be interested to go back and talk about business and his failures and how he succeeded.
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And then here s the last one since I brought up an astronaut earlier.
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If you were one of the Artemis astronauts and you were selected to be on the first mission to Mars and once you landed you were allowed to put in a single law edict for all of humanity on the planet, what would it be?
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Oh, I would say something about
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that we have to show kindness to people no matter what they re going through.
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I don t know how we would turn that into a law, but we d figure a way to make that happen.
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Okay.
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Love it.
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Amy, can you talk a little bit about your podcast and also give the listener a way to reach out to you if they would like to learn more about you?
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Sure.
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So my podcast is called Mentally Stronger with therapist, Amy Morin.
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And every Monday we interview guests.
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Many of the guests that you ve mentioned have been on our show.
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We talk to authors, experts, sometimes celebrities about what makes them mentally strong.
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And then on Fridays, I do a short episode.
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We call it the Friday Fix episode with a actionable strategy straight from my therapy office that can help people build mental strength.
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And the best way to learn about my podcast and my books is my website, which is amymorinlcsw, as in licensedclinicalsocialworker.com.
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And on there, we have links to my TEDx talk and info about my books and all the other things that I do.
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Well, Amy, thank you so much for being on the show today.
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I ve been looking forward to this for weeks since we first booked it.
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Well, thank you so much for having me.
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It s been fun.
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I thoroughly enjoyed that interview with my friend, Amy Morin, and I wanted to thank Amy for the honor and privilege of joining me on today s episode links to all things.
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Amy will be in the show notes at passionstruck.com.
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Please use our website links.
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If you purchase any of the books from the guests that we feature here on the show, all proceeds go to supporting the show.
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Videos are on YouTube at both JonRMiles and PassionstruckClips.
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Advertiser deals and discount codes are in one convenient place at Passionstruck.com slash deals.
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You can sign up for my work-related newsletter titled Work Intentionally on LinkedIn.
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You can catch me on all the social platforms at JonRMiles, or you can sign up for my personal development newsletter, Live Intentionally, either at Passionstruck.com or JonRMiles.com.
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You re about to hear a preview of the Passion Strike Podcast interview that I did with Drew Plotkin, author of Under My Skin.
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And in our interview, Drew discusses the roller coaster ride that has been his life, painful secrets from his past, along with his own techniques and tools for navigating life s never ending trials of valleys and peaks.
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In life, there are times where you need to hit the gas and you have to stop thinking about
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Well, I m on a losing streak.
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Well, this just happened.
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Well, I had some bad luck the last few days, the last few weeks.
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It s easy to get into a rut or a slump.
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But the way to break out of that is that when you see a ray of light, man, hit the gas and go.
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Don t drown in it.
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The fee for this show is that you share it with family or friends when you find something useful or interesting.
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If you know someone who could use the advice that Amy gave here today on how to be mentally strong, then definitely share today s episode with your family and friends.
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The greatest compliment that you can give us is to share the show with those that you love and care about.
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In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so that you can live what you listen.
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Until next time, go out there and become Ashton Stroud.