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Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert.
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I m Dan Shepard, and I m joined by a miniature mouse.
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This is the weirdest intro we ve ever done.
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In six and a half years, we ve never sat side by side in an intro.
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That s true.
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Yeah, you re across from me.
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I mean, we ve done some side by sides.
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I don t trust this angle.
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You don t trust?
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That s a ding, ding, ding.
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You cannot help but side-eye me during this.
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Yeah, you think I m like angry?
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Well, side-eyes are tricky.
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Do you think side eyes mean mean girl?
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Do you think it means I m gonna bite you?
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Plotting.
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Plotting.
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Yeah, I think plotting.
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Okay, this is among the most interesting interviews we ve ever done.
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Rare.
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I didn t ever think in my life I would meet someone that was open about being diagnosed as a sociopath.
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And then add on to that, they also have a PhD in research psychology.
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And so our guest today, Patrick Gagne, is a psychologist and a diagnosed sociopath.
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And she has a book out that is so interesting called Sociopath, a Memoir.
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She s written in the New York Times and she s incredibly interesting.
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What a privilege to get to talk to someone in that position.
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Yes, just truly, truly fascinating.
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I think you will love it as well.
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So please enjoy Patrick Gagne.
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How are you?
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Very well, nice to meet you.
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I m Vance, nice to meet you.
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Hi, I m Monica.
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Hi, nice to meet you.
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SPEAKER_00
Nice to meet you.
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I have stuff for you guys.
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SPEAKER_01
Oh, stuff.
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Exciting, we love stuff.
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SPEAKER_00
Oh my gosh, good legs.
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SPEAKER_00
What the heck is this?
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SPEAKER_00
I m from the South, I don t show up anywhere unprepared.
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Oh, I love it.
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Without something in my hand.
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Oh my God, best of classic car.
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This is a very nice present.
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What?
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What did you say, a history of wine?
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Fashion.
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Oh my gosh.
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That is so sweet.
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That makes me think you ve heard the show or you have really good research people around you.
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It s a little bit of both.
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SPEAKER_01
Okay.
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SPEAKER_00
I ve listened to a couple.
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SPEAKER_00
I m not a podcast person.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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So, but what I found when all of the requests started coming in was my friends were saying, oh, you should listen, you should listen.
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And I was, and I thought, you know, I m actually not going to, I want to come in without a lot of knowledge.
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I don t want to have any preconceived ideas of what s going on.
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Totally.
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But I ve heard enough that I know what you guys are into.
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Where do you live currently?
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I live in Florida.
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You still do?
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Well, I lived here forever, and we were fortunate in that my husband, he works in tech, so he was able to work remotely.
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And we were in this house in Westwood that I loved, but we were expanding our family, so we already knew we wanted to go.
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My dad lives in what is essentially a retirement community, so we bought
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a house two doors down from his, thinking, we ll just flip it.
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And we got him squared away.
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We put everything in boxes.
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I think we were scheduled to leave the following week, and then the lockdowns with the pandemic happened.
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So not only do we live in Florida, but we live in a retirement community.
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Wow.
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Now, okay, this is a fantasy of mine based, and I ll tell you entirely why.
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Well, two experiences.
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One was I went with my friend Trevor in fifth grade to go see his grandparents in Arizona from Detroit, and they had a golf cart and we were allowed to drive the golf cart around.
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There was shuffleboard.
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And I remember thinking, this is it.
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It is.
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I m going to say something and then I m going to contradict myself immediately.
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What I m first going to say is this is going to be one of the most unique opportunities of my life as an interviewer in that I ve never ever interviewed someone who identifies as a sociopath and has been diagnosed as such.
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I bet you have.
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Well, that s how I m going to counterdict myself.
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And of course, learning about it from your book, and I am curious where this number comes from, but in the book it says 5% of Americans are sociopathic.
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So at the same time, I m acknowledging certainly within 800 people, if those are the numbers, I ve interviewed 40 of them.
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And maybe it over indexes even in the fields I ve talked to people.
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I have no idea.
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I think order wise, I d love to A, find out where that number comes from, but B, I want you to explain it to us so we don t enter into your personal story, hanging onto a lot of the stereotypes I think probably I walked in with and people will walk in with.
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So first and foremost, where do we think that number comes from?
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It s the go-to number for research.
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I think the last place I saw it actually referenced was the Cleveland Clinic.
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And here s what you need to understand about that number.
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Psychopathy and sociopathy tend to be conflated.
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The psychology field has a habit of changing the name of a disorder once it becomes too stigmatizing, which is understandable.
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It s like whack-a-mole.
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Right, but that really becomes tricky when you re dealing with research and especially with sociopathy because they have more recently, again because of stigma, decided to reclassify sociopathy as secondary psychopathy.
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Oh God, that sounds way worse.
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It didn t have a phase of antisocial.
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Here s the thing with antisocial personality disorder, a lot of the claims are sociopathy was replaced by antisocial personality disorder.
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What they re not telling you is you cannot diagnose sociopathy using the criteria for antisocial personality disorder.
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The criteria for antisocial personality disorder is separate from the criteria for sociopathy, just like you cannot diagnose someone who s antisocial using criteria set forth with sociopathy.
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So although they are very similar, they re not the same.
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And I can speak to that from experience in that when you re looking at someone with antisocial personality disorder, it s going to be someone who has no impulse control and tends to make the same mistakes over and over again without the ability to evolve.
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They re going to have that juvenile record that s a mile long.
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They re going to have a difficult time keeping a job, staying in school.
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They re going to have an adult criminal record.
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In fact, one of the criteria for antisocial personality disorder, in order to give someone that diagnosis, there needs to be evidence of conduct disorder, which is something that you assign mostly to children.
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the kids that are acting out, but acting out in a way that s particularly problematic.
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Criminal?
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Yes.
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Or just excessive expulsions.
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They ll take that into account because they understand some people are going to take pity on a kid and not send them to juvie just to spare them that stigma.
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So they re looking for evidence like that.
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So vandalism, violence within the classroom, expulsion suspensions, et cetera.
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I didn t have any of that.
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Violence in the classroom.
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But not reported.
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And you need evidence of in order to have that diagnosis.
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Gotcha.
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And that s kind of what sparked my interest when I started asking, who says that all sociopaths act this way?
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They don t.
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Reading about it made me see so many parallels about so many different things and really ask myself, what are we really focusing on when we label these things?
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Because as I read your story, weirdly, the outcome of your behavior and my behavior as an addict, some of it s identical.
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We re not even measuring you and I by the outcome of our behavior, but we re really trying to figure out why we behave that way, which is fascinating.
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And even some of the outcome of your behavior would also mirror some of the things in other neurodivergent things like autism, like maybe this lack of being able to see emotions on other people and this empathy.
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So it s this big stew of overlapping outcomes, but hopefully we re trying to track down the causality of all these things.
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And that s why conversations like this are so important, because I m so glad you said that, because I would like to say that.
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But the perception of sociopathy as it stands today, I would never want to say the struggle with sociopathy is similar to the struggle with addiction, because members of that community are going to push back, rightly so, because they don t understand the nuance of the disorder.
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And that s so key here, is so many of the destructive behaviors I committed, the motivation for it was not malice.
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It was not intent to harm.
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It wasn t callous disregard for others.
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You know, sadism.
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No, it was- Right.
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Discomfort alleviated by a behavior.
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Yes.
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At the time, I couldn t explain why.
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Certainly when I was a child, all I knew was I felt this compulsion, do it, do it, do it, do it.
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And then I would do it and it would go away and I didn t question it.
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I just knew this bad behavior makes
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The pressure go away and the way to continue to give myself these prescriptions, I m just going to have to slide under the radar because I don t want to be othered.
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I see what that does.
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There was another kid in my class.
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I remember he threw a desk through a window.
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Yeah, it s a red flag.
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Obviously, there s a lot happening.
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Yeah, he probably had trauma though.
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I just think everyone s trauma.
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100%.
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Yeah.
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And I just remember thinking, okay, so I won t be doing that because every adult descended on the classroom, rightfully so.
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And I just remember, yeah, I can t do that.
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Right, we re gonna have to come in a little softer than that approach.
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And also say selfishly, there is a laziness in me that is bummed as we get more compassionate for everyone, as we should, that is the goal.
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We re kind of running out of like, sociopath, we all agreed, like, yeah, we can definitely just say like, oh, that person s a sociopath.
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You know, they re bad, they re evil.
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And then I hear your story, I m like, no, it s another thing you re fucking born with that you have to wrestle with.
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And my God, now I can t at least in good conscious.
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And I m like, what the fuck is left?
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I guess we ll have Monster as this kind of fictitious, bad, evil Hitler person.
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And then everything else we re going to have to be a little more understanding of.
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Yes and no.
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Because here s the thing, that reputation as evil is earned.
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There is a small percentage.
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of the sociopathic personality who does commit these atrocious crimes.
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You know, like the Ted Bundy example, although I personally don t happen to think Ted Bundy was sociopathic, but it s that generalized, yes.
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But make no mistake, sociopathy is a perilous mental disorder.
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The traits associated aren t great.
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So I don t want this to be a, we should all- Invite them all into your home.
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No, it s not that.
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Put a sign in your front yard, sociopaths welcome.
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A hundred percent.
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Free food.
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Just like any disorder, sociopathy appears to exist on a spectrum.
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It speaks to the individual s ability to get the help that they need.
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The destructive behavior that I began doing as early as I can remember, that was an unconscious coping mechanism that ultimately developed into a lifestyle that I was
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subsequently able to address because I m a white woman of privilege, I had access to education, I had access to therapists.
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A diagnosis.
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Yes, everything.
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So many people don t have that.
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Well, that s what I like about your book.
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Your book isn t a call for America to open up their arms and offer free drinks to sociopaths.
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It s actually to help sociopaths.
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Yeah.
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Like I hope you re reading this book and you re identifying with it.
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And if you re identifying with it, I m going to roll out some tools and how I have come to live a life that is free.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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So really quick, is there anything structurally we can observe in an fMRI that would show us the sociopathic brain?
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Is there any mechanistic things associated with it?
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I have been told that there is, and I ve read some research studies on, but it hasn t been reviewed enough for me to say, yes, this is the thing that you should do, and this is where you should go, and this is how you can see the difference between someone who has psychopathy, sociopathy versus neurotypical.
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But they do exist.
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I ve read the studies on how they are attempting to advance different testings that involve brain scans and an actual look into how the different parts of the brain are affected by sociopathy and psychopathy.
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Psychopathy is believed to be the result of brain abnormalities that make it impossible for someone to move through complex emotional development.
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While these people are born with the so-called inherent emotions, joy, sadness, surprise, disgust, they re not able to progress through the social emotions.
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Those are empathy, love, things that you teach children as they develop.
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These are psychopaths.
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Psychopaths, and there is not a general consensus on what those abnormalities are.
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Some believe it s an issue within the amygdala that processes emotional reaction to memory, and others believe the psychopath has the inability to process oxytocin.
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The love chemical.
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Correct.
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And trust building.
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But there isn t that consensus.
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And that is something that I m really hoping they ll receive more attention and finances for research.
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Sociopaths, however, don t appear to suffer from those biological impediments.
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So while they can learn the social emotions, they just learn them differently.
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In the book, I describe it as an emotional learning disability because that s what it felt like.
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I remember seeing my sister internalize.
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My mother would come and say, well, we don t want to do that because that s bad and you don t want your teachers to get upset.
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And I remember my sister, oh no, that sounds awful to her.
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The thought of them being upset.
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Upset at her or her letting someone down.
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And I just remember being like, I don t care.
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I don t want to go out and harm these teachers, but
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I don t care.
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But also the understanding very quickly that that response is not met favorably.
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Right, you re smart enough to pick up social cues.
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This is a side note, and it s not psychopathy or sociopathy, but they did a retrospect on the original Rain Man who the movie was based on.
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Savant syndrome, right?
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Yes, and this guy who lives in Utah and they had an interview from him like 25 years earlier and then they went and revisited him and he kind of hangs in the Salt Lake City library.
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He s read every single book in there and Leslie Stahl sits with him and now this go around with him.
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He s like, hi Leslie, and he seems
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to have developed all these kind of things that he didn t have 20 years prior.
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And she says to the dad, it seems like he s really kind of grown.
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And he said, don t confuse that.
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He s just very smart.
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And he s learned that if he smiles, you smile better.
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He has picked up over time through practice a set of skills, but his brain hasn t changed.
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He is not processing your facial expressions the way, you know, that was an example of someone just picking up the skill set.
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And it s a great example because so many people like to talk about the sociopath mask, right?
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You know, like you can t trust the sociopath mask.
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They always have masks on.
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And to a large extent, that s very true.
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But my sociopathic mask isn t much different than the mask that most people- Yeah, don t we all do that?
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Yes.
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Everything s a fucking spectrum.
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And everyone has that front-facing personality that they put on just to exist in the world.
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Make life easy.
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The lubricant.
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The difference is the sociopathic mask is always seen as something nefarious, when in reality, it s just a necessity.
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I understand that if I come in here and I have a flat affect and I start asking blunt, invasive questions,
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You re not gonna love it, or maybe you would, but it s- I m gonna, and we re gonna do that.
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You had a nice turn in this New York Times interview, and I was like, now we re fucking getting somewhere.
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You said that, and she said, I would like to see the interviewer.
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I don t know if it was a man or a woman.
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It was a man.
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A man.
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I kind of want to see that.
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He said that?
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Yeah, like let it rip, take off the mask, basically.
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Well, he asked me if I thought that being an interviewer was
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Manipulative.
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I said, I don t know, is it?
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He wanted me to ask him questions about it.
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And it was a very fun turn of events.
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It was.
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You said, because otherwise I m quiet.
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I ask invasive questions.
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There we go.
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I stare.
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My effect is low.
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And then he invited you.
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And you basically just said, why do you interview people?
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Do you feel like you are manipulative for your job?
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And then there was some defensiveness.
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You called that out.
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No problem, because you don t give a fuck.
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He didn t like that.
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It was really fun and it went somewhere really fun.
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So anyways, I was like, oh, I m so up for that at some point.
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But I guess let s start at the beginning.
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You, at least in the book, say at seven years old, you have basically two emotions.
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You have anger and happiness.
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They inherit emotions, which I learned later.
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There are more.
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And I m remiss because I should be able to just list them out by now, but I can t.
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I always forget.
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But it s happiness, sadness, disgust, surprise.
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And there s three or four more that are inherent emotions from the jump.
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Everyone has these emotions, including psychopaths.
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The ones you can remember feeling the most would be anger and happiness.
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And then the rest of the time you re feeling just very, very flat.
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Correct.
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Are you disassociated at all?
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I don t feel disassociated because I m very present.
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I just feel back then I would have described it as nothingness.
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Now I would describe it as tranquil.
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Content.
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Kind of.
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What you re aspiring to do.
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Yes.
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Meditation.
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The stress for me came from other people s expectations of me to emote the way they were emoting.
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And the stress wasn t, oh, I need to make these people happy.
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It was if I don t do what they are expecting of me, I m going to be outed.
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And then life as I know it will cease to exist.
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I won t be able to get and do and have the things that I want because someone s always going to be keeping an eye on me.
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Yeah, your otherness would exclude you from any kind of life.
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I assume it s a spectrum of intensity, right?
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I guess some people would have a very flat reaction to a murder potentially in front of them.
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Is it a spectrum like that?
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I think the spectrum is more in how difficult it is to learn the social emotion.
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So socialization is what every parent does for their kid.
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Typical socialization techniques didn t work for me.
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It just didn t make any sense.
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It didn t land.
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Well, you want to do this because so-and-so will get her feelings hurt if you don t go to a party.
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It s like,
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OK, but I don t want to go to this.
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And why would she get her feelings hurt?
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That doesn t make sense.
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Inherent boundaries or something.
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There are so many overlapping themes to your point that, yeah, it does sound like boundaries.
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But to me, it was I couldn t understand propriety.
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Like we should do this.
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And the shame.
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I didn t have any shame about anything.
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Or guilt.
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Right.
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So I think the spectrum taps into how difficult it is for someone to eventually learn those social emotions.
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And it is possible for someone with sociopathy, they just learn them differently.
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And you need a system.
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SPEAKER_00
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_02
Ultimately.
1
SPEAKER_02
And that s going to be one of my last questions is the coin that is sociopathy as is addiction.
1
SPEAKER_02
Like I m delighted to have it.
1
SPEAKER_02
Every part I like about myself is also related to that.
1
SPEAKER_02
We ll wrap up with that one.
1
SPEAKER_02
But in practice, the thing that interests me at the beginning of your story is
1
SPEAKER_02
This you call it pressure.
1
SPEAKER_02
I guess as an addict.
1
SPEAKER_02
I would call it discomfort Sure, and you started discovering young you would steal things that would relieve this discomfort or this pressure You stabbed a classmate in the head with a pencil.
1
SPEAKER_02
Oh, I think that s a good salacious interesting one.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I m curious Yeah, I want to hear about that
1
SPEAKER_00
The pressure had been building, and discomfort is a good word for it.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think pressure is what I sort of latched onto as a kid.
1
SPEAKER_02
A need to regulate, we can agree on that, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes, but neurotypical regulation techniques did not apply.
1
SPEAKER_00
I couldn t make myself feel better the way that other people made themselves feel better.
1
SPEAKER_00
I just remember being a kid, sitting behind a little girl in school, and I looked up and she had barrettes in her hair, and I felt this, take that barrette and you re gonna feel better.
1
SPEAKER_00
It didn t make any sense, and yet I knew it was accurate.
1
SPEAKER_02
I should have started there.
1
SPEAKER_02
It didn t start with the stabbing, but yes, that s the first time you feel the relief.
2
SPEAKER_03
that usually did the trick.
2
SPEAKER_03
But on this day, when I assaulted this child, I had been doing a lot of little transgressions and they weren t working.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I could feel it.
2
SPEAKER_03
As a kid, you re like, what s going to happen?
2
SPEAKER_03
What s going to happen?
2
SPEAKER_03
What s going to happen?
2
SPEAKER_03
What s going to happen?
2
SPEAKER_03
But as a kid, I had a harder time talking myself through it.
2
SPEAKER_03
And there was a little girl standing next to me and she had just been getting on my nerves, as they do.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I bent down and she kicked my backpack.
2
SPEAKER_03
And when she did, she knocked out my pencil box that was full of pencils.
2
SPEAKER_03
And then I just remember picking up a pencil and stabbing her in the head with it.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I remember what was problematic, other than the obvious, was it wasn t just the pressure that disappeared.
2
SPEAKER_03
It was replaced by this euphoria.
2
SPEAKER_01
Pestilation.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I knew enough to know that ain t great.
2
SPEAKER_01
This is untenable.
2
SPEAKER_01
We re gonna run out of heads to stab, and I ll be kicked out of here quickly.
2
SPEAKER_02
So you didn t know that though.
2
SPEAKER_02
So that s interesting.
2
SPEAKER_02
You knew this isn t good, that I like it.
2
SPEAKER_03
I always knew right from wrong.
2
SPEAKER_03
Cognitive, it wasn t internal.
2
SPEAKER_03
That s the difference.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s part of one of the erroneous stereotypes is, oh, sociopaths don t know the difference between right and wrong.
2
SPEAKER_03
Oh, yes, they do.
2
SPEAKER_01
Also, you hear sociopaths track highly empathetic, actually, if you go by the Paul Bloom definition, that actually they re quite good at knowing what you are thinking and needing to hear from them.
2
SPEAKER_03
because they ve spent a lifetime mirroring.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_01
So of course, as a parent, you re a parent, I cannot help but think about what mom s going through.
2
SPEAKER_01
So you re in a good situation at the beginning of this.
2
SPEAKER_01
Dad is a successful music executive.
2
SPEAKER_01
You guys live in a nice place in San Francisco, and there s tools at your disposal, I presume.
2
SPEAKER_01
Mom has the bandwidth to observe you, and she s slowly detecting some things.
2
SPEAKER_01
She finds the box of stolen shit.
2
SPEAKER_01
How do I ask this?
2
SPEAKER_01
You have love for your mother.
2
SPEAKER_01
Clearly it s in the book.
2
SPEAKER_01
Are you aware of her concern and panic about your behavior?
2
SPEAKER_01
And what does that do to you?
2
SPEAKER_01
Are you detecting like this woman?
2
SPEAKER_01
I love my main resource in life.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m dependent on them.
2
SPEAKER_01
They re scared for me.
2
SPEAKER_01
Should I be, but you don t have fear really?
2
SPEAKER_03
No.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_03
So the way I internalized that is I really relied on my mother to be my moral compass, because I understood I didn t have one.
2
SPEAKER_03
I didn t always understand social cues.
2
SPEAKER_03
So I really relied on her to sort of help me navigate the more nuanced parts of social emotions that I didn t understand, like behavior aside.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I remember thinking, if my mom turns on me, and by turns on me, I mean- Excludes you or rejects you?
2
SPEAKER_03
No, because she would never have done that, but if she starts to give me the look, if she starts to perceive me as uh-oh, then I m not gonna be able to rely on her as my moral compass anymore.
2
SPEAKER_03
It was selfishly motivated.
2
SPEAKER_03
It was, I need to do what I need to do to pacify her.
2
SPEAKER_03
Because if I don t, I m not going to be able to rely on her as a compass.
2
SPEAKER_03
I would watch her reactions to things and be like, OK, so that s what you do when you re presented with this information check.
2
SPEAKER_03
I got that.
2
SPEAKER_03
That s how you want to respond if somebody says this.
2
SPEAKER_03
I really turn to her and my sister for these different masks to wear so that I would be presenting appropriately.
2
SPEAKER_03
And we were living in a time when mental health wasn t a thing.
2
SPEAKER_03
We hardly had words or tools for anxiety and depression or addiction, much less sociopathy.
2
SPEAKER_03
So my mom did the best she could, but she didn t know what she was dealing with.
2
SPEAKER_01
I would imagine she s watching you, two things.
2
SPEAKER_01
You go to a birthday party when you re a little kid and all the girls fall asleep.
2
SPEAKER_01
Not a birthday party, a sleepover, sorry.
2
SPEAKER_03
I think it was a birthday party sleepover.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay, hybrid.
2
SPEAKER_01
And all the girls go to sleep and then you re like, okay, well I m bored and I d like to explore the house.
2
SPEAKER_01
And now you re exploring their house.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then you decide, fuck, I do want to be at home.
2
SPEAKER_01
My mom said I could come home if I want.
2
SPEAKER_01
So you just leave in first grade and you walk through San Francisco and then you go into someone s garage and you go in their car.
2
SPEAKER_01
And by the time you arrived to mom.
2
SPEAKER_01
This has got to be a moment for her where she goes, OK, there was some stealing.
2
SPEAKER_01
There s this.
2
SPEAKER_01
I see she s not really bonding with the other kids.
2
SPEAKER_01
She s probably very just afraid you re going to be lonely.
2
SPEAKER_01
But now I think this is a moment where it shifts gears, where she has to actually be pretty concerned about your safety because you don t seem to have the fears that a normal kid would have that would keep them from roaming San Francisco in the middle of the night.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Is that when she gets the scaredest?
2
SPEAKER_03
Unfortunately for her, she wasn t taking my behavior as a sign that something was wrong with me.
2
SPEAKER_03
She was internalizing it, that there was something wrong with her.
2
SPEAKER_03
Of course.
2
SPEAKER_03
That she had somehow done something wrong, that she was to blame.
2
SPEAKER_03
So she felt all that shame and guilt.
2
SPEAKER_03
What am I doing that is causing this child to do that?
2
SPEAKER_03
And she was so emotional about it that again, I remember being very, okay,
2
SPEAKER_03
I knew that wasn t the right thing to do, but I wasn t expecting it to result in this level of emotional reaction.
2
SPEAKER_01
You couldn t have predicted that.
2
SPEAKER_03
I think a normal kid would have, and I m using that term loosely, but no, it didn t even register that this would be a problem.
2
SPEAKER_01
Now here s the fantasy liberating part of your condition, which I found intriguing is you go out.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s the first time you ve been out in the middle of the night in San Francisco and you re like, this is awesome.
2
SPEAKER_01
Why aren t people out all the time?
2
SPEAKER_01
It s like a totally different vibe.
2
SPEAKER_01
Garage doors are open.
2
SPEAKER_01
I can explore some aspect of.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m envious of, it s like very liberating.
2
SPEAKER_02
So the opposite.
2
SPEAKER_01
I am kind of making you relative to Monica and I m like, well, this is like, if there is a spectrum, these two are like on the complete opposite ends of this.
2
SPEAKER_03
I d be so scared.
2
SPEAKER_03
I just remember that walk and subsequent walks like it, feeling like there was a spa visit.
2
SPEAKER_03
All the pressure evaporated.
2
SPEAKER_03
I think that was because when I was alone, I could just drop the mask.
2
SPEAKER_03
It was late at night.
2
SPEAKER_03
No one was going to ask me what I was doing.
2
SPEAKER_03
And if they did, I would have spun a story and taken off.
2
SPEAKER_03
I could just be myself.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I think that s what I was resonating with in that walk.
2
SPEAKER_03
I loved the idea of all these people in their houses and all of the garage doors open.
2
SPEAKER_03
So it was these glimpses into lives that I could just walk up and look at like I was in a gallery.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like you hit pause on mankind.
2
SPEAKER_03
Exactly right.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I ve kind of wanted to do that.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s a fantasy.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
We d be at a mall, hit pause, and then go snoop around people s purses and try to figure out, like, detective, what is going on?
2
SPEAKER_01
I want to avoid inadvertently projecting or linking what you re saying into something that s really not transferable.
2
SPEAKER_01
But I guess my curiosity is, you re intelligent, you re aware murders happen, yeah?
2
SPEAKER_01
You re aware that the world s dangerous, or not?
2
SPEAKER_03
Now or then.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m trying to figure out if it s, you know the world s dangerous, but you just don t give a fuck, or that your immediate thing is so compelling that that just gets silenced.
2
SPEAKER_03
There s something to be said with cognitive knowledge and emotional knowledge.
2
SPEAKER_01
Big time, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I think that s what was going on.
2
SPEAKER_03
Cognitively, did I understand that this was maybe not the safest choice, smartest choice?
2
SPEAKER_03
Sure.
2
SPEAKER_03
But if it doesn t hit you emotionally, I mean, we ve all been there.
2
SPEAKER_00
If the amygdala doesn t fire from that information.
2
SPEAKER_00
Correct.
2
SPEAKER_03
We all know the things we shouldn t be doing.
2
SPEAKER_03
How about when you know the guy or girl is wrong for you, but it s the emotion that causes you to move forward in this relationship, even though your brain is, it s the same thing when there s no emotional connection.
2
SPEAKER_01
Or when you sit down to eat two cheese pizzas, like, the brain knows you re gonna regret this, but you re like, yeah, also, emotionally, I m gonna eat this fucking thing.
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, fear is fully emotional.
2
SPEAKER_02
You re right, you can know, like, I should be scared, but that doesn t do anything.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like, that s nothing.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s just what s in your body that s causing you to stop, or...
2
SPEAKER_02
And those constructs are important.
2
SPEAKER_03
They help keep a collective you safe.
2
SPEAKER_03
Something does shift when you are moving through the world without fear.
2
SPEAKER_03
You tend to attract less danger.
2
SPEAKER_03
And of course, this is junk science, but yeah, my father used to say to me, kid, you can get anywhere in life with a confident stride and a walkie talkie.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I never forgot that.
2
SPEAKER_03
Because if you re not consumed with those things, if you re not moving through the world or really held up on fear, yeah, chances are I can just walk up and get what I need and walk out and we re fine.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you don t smell like a victim.
2
SPEAKER_01
There s no fear to detect on you.
2
SPEAKER_01
I don t know why I m just thinking of this, but did you see Men in Black?
2
SPEAKER_01
One of my favorite movies.
2
SPEAKER_01
Will Smith passes that test.
2
SPEAKER_01
Remember all the guys are shooting at the monsters?
2
SPEAKER_01
And he s like, no, that dude s just doing pushups.
2
SPEAKER_01
I wouldn t want him coming in the gym and killing me.
2
SPEAKER_01
But this little girl, she s seven.
2
SPEAKER_01
She s reading quantum physics.
2
SPEAKER_01
A hundred percent.
2
SPEAKER_01
That makes me think of that scene.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_01
So at 11, I think would be the next fast forward.
2
SPEAKER_01
Tell me about Florida and the tour of the prison and you actually get an idea of what you maybe have.
2
SPEAKER_01
Is that the first time?
2
SPEAKER_03
I think it was the first time it really was presented to me.
2
SPEAKER_03
I can t believe that I hadn t come across that word at some point, but I don t think that it was presented to me definitively.
2
SPEAKER_03
And this is something too, I think with my personality type, I ve told this story to people dozens of times over the years.
2
SPEAKER_03
And every time I do, it s, wait, what?
2
SPEAKER_03
You went to a prison in the middle of the night, and it took a while for me to remember to say, I need to preface this with, I know this isn t normal, but my uncle worked there.
2
SPEAKER_03
He was a graveyard shift correctional officer.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I had always had a fixation with Alcatraz.
2
SPEAKER_03
And I think just criminal behavior, which is almost certainly an unconscious trying to figure things out for myself.
2
SPEAKER_03
So he invited us to this prison.
2
SPEAKER_03
He could only do it after hours.
2
SPEAKER_03
And
2
SPEAKER_03
I just remember walking through and seeing all of these men and hearing another guard say, all these people are sociopaths.
2
SPEAKER_03
What s that?
2
SPEAKER_03
It s someone who doesn t learn from their mistakes.
3
SPEAKER_00
doesn t feel badly about what they did, does the same stuff over and over again.
3
SPEAKER_01
And said, if I left my wallet on the table right here and walked out... He was like, would you go through it?
3
SPEAKER_00
And inside I m like, fuck yeah, I d go through it.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m like, no, right, you wouldn t because you re not a sociopath.
3
SPEAKER_01
And if you did, would you feel bad?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I d feel terrible.
3
SPEAKER_00
I d feel so bad.
3
SPEAKER_00
Who would do something like that?
3
SPEAKER_00
But I m like, no, I wouldn t feel bad at all.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s like, they wouldn t.
3
SPEAKER_01
Got real concrete.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_01
Okay, now your story is you got invited, but as I hear it, it s hard for me not to imagine that your mother didn t orchestrate this.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m not kidding.
3
SPEAKER_01
That she had some fear that you might end up in jail and that you needed to be scared straight.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because you think you re a good lie detector.
3
SPEAKER_00
She would pass a lie detector.
3
SPEAKER_00
If you asked her that question, she would say, absolutely not.
3
SPEAKER_00
It never factored into my decision making for one second.
3
SPEAKER_00
So if she did set that up, it was late.
3
SPEAKER_01
It was good.
3
SPEAKER_01
But you can see from the outside, like knowing what she s going through, you end up on this very bizarre field trip that no one gets to take.
3
SPEAKER_01
And the explanation, sure, is plausible.
3
SPEAKER_01
But to me, it feels more like if I were the parent of a child that was really worried was going to end up incarcerated, I might want to let them see what that looks like.
3
SPEAKER_00
Do you know that has never occurred to me?
3
SPEAKER_00
But I ll leave here and ask her.
3
SPEAKER_00
I remember her being as excited about it as I was.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I just remember seeing all these men and the guards saying that they couldn t look at us.
3
SPEAKER_00
They had to keep their heads down.
3
SPEAKER_00
And we were two little girls and a woman just walking through this male prison.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I just found that power displacement so, like,
3
SPEAKER_01
You know the word you want to say.
3
SPEAKER_01
Say the word you want to say.
3
SPEAKER_00
I don t know the word, I promise.
3
SPEAKER_00
What did you think it was?
3
SPEAKER_01
Something positive.
3
SPEAKER_00
Exhilarating.
3
SPEAKER_01
Exhilarating, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
I couldn t think of that word, but that s what it was.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right, because you still got to hide.
3
SPEAKER_01
Even though you re out in the open, I m sure you have a lot of muscle memory of hiding.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s less hiding and more, I still have to mask.
3
SPEAKER_01
You have an awareness right now that you want to be truthful and not scare everyone out of your experience.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re still walking some tightrope.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t know that you ll ever shake that in life.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know enough to put it through the filter, which is like, wow, what I really want to say is like, that prison made me horny.
3
SPEAKER_01
Let s say that s the word.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s going to be a little too much.
3
SPEAKER_01
Let s go to an ADA math.
3
SPEAKER_01
but still have my intention to be known.
3
SPEAKER_02
Again, though, that s everyone.
3
SPEAKER_02
Don t you think everyone s adjusting slightly to whatever s in front of them?
3
SPEAKER_02
Maybe I m a sociopath.
3
SPEAKER_02
I don t know.
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, when you re reading it, I am doing that.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m like, am I a sociopath?
3
SPEAKER_01
Because a lot of the stuff I can relate to, A, I have some criminality in my background.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I feel deeply, deeply sad when I hurt someone s feelings.
3
SPEAKER_01
I did keep coming back to that.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m like, no, and I can think of times as weak.
3
SPEAKER_01
I do have that.
3
SPEAKER_01
And your book answered it for me.
3
SPEAKER_01
But one of my curiosities, a lot of my behavior that seemed to be sociopathic,
3
SPEAKER_01
or certainly I didn t care about the consequences.
3
SPEAKER_01
My motivation was the world has been unjust to me.
3
SPEAKER_01
I am the recipient of violence and alcoholism and all this stuff.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I didn t get a fair shake and people aren t playing by the rules with me.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so
3
SPEAKER_01
I m not obligated to play by the rules either.
3
SPEAKER_01
And in fact, I m going to write the justice scales.
3
SPEAKER_01
When I try to conceptualize your experience, I did wonder, is any of that at play?
3
SPEAKER_01
But I don t think it is.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think it s a completely different thing, again, with the same outcome.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I had a pretty bulletproof, wasn t a fair shake for me, so I ll take whatever the fuck I can get.
3
SPEAKER_00
I don t remember feeling that way at all as a kid.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s tricky for me to equate it to other mental disorders because sociopathy, as it stands now, people don t want to be associated with this bad word.
3
SPEAKER_01
It definitely needs a rebrand.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it really does.
3
SPEAKER_02
And maybe not secondary psychopathy.
3
SPEAKER_00
Psychopathy, Jesus.
3
SPEAKER_00
That is not a good... No, when I heard that, I was like, guys, I m not sure we... Didn t nail it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Not sure we stuck the landing on this one.
3
SPEAKER_00
But I felt this compulsion.
3
SPEAKER_00
I remember one time seeing, I can t remember what it was, but it was like, okay, well, you got to take that because it s right there.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, I don t really feel like taking it.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m just tired.
3
SPEAKER_01
Meaning stealing something or taking shit?
3
SPEAKER_00
Stealing something.
3
SPEAKER_00
You got to just take it because you can get ahead of it.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s kind of like taking the Xanax before the anxiety kicks in.
3
SPEAKER_00
Just do it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then you won t even have to worry about it today.
3
SPEAKER_00
Or if you do, you won t have to worry about it until later.
3
SPEAKER_00
So some of it wasn t rooted in anger or grievance.
3
SPEAKER_00
It was more, I don t want to do this, but the opportunity has presented itself, and I need to take every opportunity I can.
3
SPEAKER_00
But I do remember feeling that later in life, particularly when I was dating my then boyfriend, now husband.
3
SPEAKER_00
And he was very much trying to keep me to play within the lines, but I noticed he didn t play in the lines.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that s fine.
3
SPEAKER_00
We can have an open conversation about it.
3
SPEAKER_00
But I remember feeling, if you re not going to play within the lines, you fucking think I m going to play in the lines?
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I remember stealing a car and just feeling exactly what you just described, which is
3
SPEAKER_00
Fuck you.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Look at me.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m going to do this and I m not going to feel the least bit bad about it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I m going to go home and I m going to fall asleep next to you and it s going to be like, oh wow.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
That almost seems like growth though.
3
SPEAKER_01
You wanted to get even with her.
3
SPEAKER_00
It does.
3
SPEAKER_00
You cared enough about.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s more emotional.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_00
It was the unjustness of it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Here I am working really hard to understand myself and really hone in on my motivations and I m keeping track and I m trying to stay ahead of my prescriptions and
3
SPEAKER_00
this motherfucker s out here doing anything he wants to left, right and center.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, oh, but his stuff doesn t count because he s not a sociopath.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, it does count.
3
SPEAKER_01
And also it doesn t.
3
SPEAKER_01
Just like my wife can drink wine.
3
SPEAKER_01
There are things that aren t fair for me that are fair for her because I am this very specific person.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I do have to have a different playbook.
3
SPEAKER_00
Correct.
3
SPEAKER_00
But drinking wine isn t illegal or against the law or morally inappropriate.
3
SPEAKER_00
There were some things that he was doing.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s a lie.
3
SPEAKER_00
What you just told.
3
SPEAKER_00
How come you can tell a lie, but I can t tell a lie?
3
SPEAKER_01
But could I argue maybe, because if he tells one lie, it s not going to lead to this other.
3
SPEAKER_01
The outcome will be different from his.
3
SPEAKER_00
Of course.
3
SPEAKER_01
If I fuck some stranger, and my wife fucks a stranger, those are different outcomes.
3
SPEAKER_01
I ll then fuck 1,000 strangers in the next three years.
3
SPEAKER_01
She won t.
3
SPEAKER_01
So we do have a different playbook.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s true.
3
SPEAKER_01
Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re a good student, clearly.
3
SPEAKER_01
We share this in common, we both are Bruins.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh wow, really?
3
SPEAKER_01
And I think we probably were there at the same time-ish.
3
SPEAKER_01
I graduated in 2000.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes!
3
SPEAKER_00
You did too?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes!
3
SPEAKER_01
We were roaming the campus at the same time.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s crazy.
3
SPEAKER_01
How do we get to UCLA with all these things happening?
3
SPEAKER_02
Wait, how does it get diag- is that later?
3
SPEAKER_01
So we re at a prison and you get a sense, okay, I have that.
3
SPEAKER_01
I know I m different and there it is.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s the name of it.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then does that send you off to explore or not yet?
3
SPEAKER_00
Not yet.
3
SPEAKER_00
I was still trying to figure out what I could do to keep myself in check.
3
SPEAKER_00
When I was younger, I started experimenting with smaller acts of controlled deviance.
3
SPEAKER_01
Like as a preventative measure as opposed to a it s too late measure?
3
SPEAKER_00
I didn t have the awareness that that s what I was doing because for so long I felt very tethered to my mother as my moral compass.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m going to do the things that she tells me to do and no more.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s what s going to keep me in line.
3
SPEAKER_00
But as
3
SPEAKER_00
I started to become harder to handle and she has such an emotional range.
3
SPEAKER_00
I realized this isn t going to work.
3
SPEAKER_00
She s really starting to suffer based on what she perceives as her failures.
3
SPEAKER_00
Those arguments are getting more and more volatile.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I made a decision.
3
SPEAKER_00
I can t tell my mom the truth anymore about anything.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m going to have to go this alone.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s just too painful.
3
SPEAKER_00
And also she wasn t
3
SPEAKER_00
helpful to me.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, by the way, I just thought about it in a way that I would think about it and not how you would think about it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_00
No, it was selfish.
3
SPEAKER_00
This is not working for me.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I decided to go it alone.
3
SPEAKER_00
And one of the things that I remembered thinking was, I don t have this tether anymore.
3
SPEAKER_00
I can t rely on it.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I m going to have to sort of create my own tether.
3
SPEAKER_00
And one of the ways I m going to do that is by lying.
3
SPEAKER_00
Whereas before I tried to be honest about everything because I thought I had to in order to stay tethered to my mother.
3
SPEAKER_00
Then I started lying about everything.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I remember feeling so safe.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I remember thinking, everyone says the truth shall set you free, but that was never the case for me.
3
SPEAKER_00
It always had the opposite effect.
3
SPEAKER_00
For me, lying was like a superpower I d never been able to use.
3
SPEAKER_00
It was so easy.
3
SPEAKER_00
It was so effortless.
3
SPEAKER_00
Not, I didn t steal from you and secretly pocketing cash, but I could lie about the destructive behaviors that I was engaging and to keep the pressure at bay.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then I could take care of myself.
3
SPEAKER_00
I would cut school, I would break into houses that were for sale and just spend time in them.
3
SPEAKER_00
And the argument I kept having was, none of these things are hurting other people.
3
SPEAKER_01
You weren t vandalizing things.
3
SPEAKER_00
No, I wasn t.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I was very mindful about that.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m not in here destroying or causing pain to anyone or anything.
3
SPEAKER_00
So who s to say it s bad?
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, well, it s bad because you shouldn t be skipping school.
3
SPEAKER_00
Why?
3
SPEAKER_00
And being able to lie about that was like getting to wear a big blanket.
3
SPEAKER_00
I don t have to justify anything.
3
SPEAKER_01
What s weird is it s almost the exact same relief people feel when they finally stop lying, which is like, oh, I don t have to hide anymore.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_00
But again, the motivation, the sociopath is always perceived as this nefarious liar.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, I m going to tell you this so that you ll trust me, so that you won t notice.
3
SPEAKER_00
I was manipulating, but not to harm someone or to get something from someone.
3
SPEAKER_00
I was manipulating so that I could continue to engage in these acts of deviance without getting caught so that I could
4
SPEAKER_01
take care of myself.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I would follow strangers around and I would watch them through their windows and then I would just go home and get in bed.
4
SPEAKER_01
I didn t take anything or vandalize property.
4
SPEAKER_02
How did sex and substances, what is the stereotypical association with those two things?
4
SPEAKER_02
Because the temperance of both are driven a lot by fear, which you don t have, and then the societal pressure to not be a slut or whatever the thing is.
4
SPEAKER_02
Did you find that you were more experimental?
4
SPEAKER_02
Because you didn t have any of those regulators on you?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yes and no.
4
SPEAKER_01
I remember having an early sexual experience that by any neurotypical definition would have been perceived as perfect.
4
SPEAKER_01
This is a person who cared about me.
4
SPEAKER_01
This was a person who cared about the experience for me.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I remember the physical element being great, but there was no emotional connection.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I remember feeling more displaced in that moment than I ever had.
4
SPEAKER_01
It was, oh, if this is what is expected of me, I m clearly broken in some way.
4
SPEAKER_01
I don t have this emotional connection that everybody talks about.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it was very clearly expected of me.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was back to the drawing board where I had to make a choice.
4
SPEAKER_01
Do I lie and say, I felt all of it?
4
SPEAKER_01
Or do I never see this person again?
4
SPEAKER_01
And I chose the latter.
4
SPEAKER_02
Well, if ever there was a kind of societal construct, it revolves that whole thing.
4
SPEAKER_02
Very much on one level, we re just an animal here to reproduce like all others, but what s built on top of that is so dense.
4
SPEAKER_01
Gosh, and so problematic and complicated, especially for women.
4
SPEAKER_00
So this guy that you had sex with in the quote, perfect scenario, you said he cared about you.
4
SPEAKER_00
Did you care about him?
4
SPEAKER_00
I did, but...
4
SPEAKER_00
And what does that even really mean, I guess?
4
SPEAKER_02
Well, you say in the book, no butterflies, no feelings of romanticness, none of those things you see in a movie.
4
SPEAKER_01
It was very cognitive.
4
SPEAKER_01
This is a good person, a kind person.
4
SPEAKER_01
He seems to love me a lot.
4
SPEAKER_01
I did not have those feelings of love, but I remember telling him I loved him back because at the time, I thought this is all I have, so maybe
4
SPEAKER_01
I love you, but my love doesn t match your love.
4
SPEAKER_01
But does that mean it doesn t count?
4
SPEAKER_01
I didn t really have the tools to navigate that.
4
SPEAKER_01
Was it just this callous disregard?
4
SPEAKER_01
I don t care about this person at all.
4
SPEAKER_01
No, but I did not have those feelings of
4
SPEAKER_01
love, and when I had my oldest and I didn t have those overwhelming feelings of love, I think unconsciously a lot of us are sort of waiting to have that moment that everyone else has, whether it s a wedding or a baby being born or a graduation, these big life moments where everyone else is excited
4
SPEAKER_01
Even though I know it s not going to happen, some part of me has always held out hope that maybe this will be the time.
4
SPEAKER_01
So when that wasn t the time sexually, I remember thinking, well, I m just fucked, literally.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I just figured, how am I going to have a relationship with anybody?
4
SPEAKER_01
I didn t know if I was capable.
4
SPEAKER_01
Certainly does not come naturally to me.
4
SPEAKER_02
You have to get annoyed much easier with a romantic partner.
4
SPEAKER_02
Because if you spend a lot of time with humans, they re annoying.
4
SPEAKER_02
And if you don t have that deep storybook romantic fantasy in your head about justifying it, I don t know how else you overlook just the general annoyingness of other people.
4
SPEAKER_01
As a sociopath, I am just as interested in non-sociopaths as non-sociopaths seem to be with me.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that was something that I really discovered when I started to get my doctorate.
4
SPEAKER_01
That was selfishly motivated.
4
SPEAKER_01
I wanted to find out more about my personality type and others like me.
4
SPEAKER_01
I didn t give a shit about anything else.
4
SPEAKER_01
And yet, once I started learning about all of the other personality types, I became very interested.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I think that this is something I always felt.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it s why I used to love to go out at night and just look through people s windows and watch their lives playing out.
4
SPEAKER_01
To me, it was like a movie.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m so interested in all the color that you, the collective you, experience in your emotional world.
4
SPEAKER_01
I don t know that I want it for myself, but I m fascinated by it.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so do I find other people annoying?
4
SPEAKER_01
Certainly people are annoying, but I am more interested, I find, than I am annoyed.
4
SPEAKER_02
Right, so the incentive structure is still there, it s just your fascination with them that keeps you tolerant because you re interested enough to stick around and check it out.
4
SPEAKER_02
All right, you must be an incredible student that you get into UCLA out of high school.
4
SPEAKER_01
No, I was a terrible student.
4
SPEAKER_02
Did you go to community college?
4
SPEAKER_01
Did you go to SMC?
4
SPEAKER_01
I went to a school in Florida and then I transferred over.
4
SPEAKER_02
I was a transfer as well.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
Okay, so you go to UCLA and it s there that we start.
4
SPEAKER_02
Understanding, exploring.
4
SPEAKER_02
You now have a therapist.
4
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so I just want to touch on one quick thing.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was a terrible student because it didn t ever occur to me that I needed to have good grades for anything and I remember
4
SPEAKER_01
being a junior in high school, or maybe even a senior, and having somebody say, you need good grades to get into school.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it was the first time it occurred to me.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it s not even like I made this assumption, because I m sure if I had thought about it, I wouldn t have.
4
SPEAKER_01
But it was, yeah, you go to kindergarten, then you get into elementary school, you go to elementary school, you go to middle school, middle school, high school, high school, college.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s how it goes.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s just the next school you drive to.
4
SPEAKER_01
You actually have to get good grades.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I just remember feeling, oh man, but I think that speaks to this personality type where there s no real game plan as to how I m going to do these things.
4
SPEAKER_01
I figured out I need good grades.
4
SPEAKER_01
I need to find a way to get them quickly.
4
SPEAKER_02
So you get into UCLA and is that where you get a therapist?
4
SPEAKER_01
Towards the end of being at UCLA is when my dad was pretty insistent that I start seeing somebody.
4
SPEAKER_02
And how soon before they, I feel like that would be a hard thing for a therapist to bring up.
4
SPEAKER_01
I brought it up.
4
SPEAKER_01
I d already been looking things up.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it s so interesting now that I m mentioning this quick segue with the eclipse today, I was in a hotel.
4
SPEAKER_01
I ve never stayed in this hotel before.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I went outside by the pool area to see the eclipse.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I was the only person out by the pool.
4
SPEAKER_01
And as I looked up, I realized that building looks familiar.
4
SPEAKER_01
And this particular hotel backs up.
4
SPEAKER_01
to my college apartment where I first started doing the research for sociopathy.
4
SPEAKER_02
Really?
4
SPEAKER_01
I could literally put my hand on the wall and it was such an interesting moment.
4
SPEAKER_01
I can t believe I m standing here on the other side of the wall.
4
SPEAKER_01
That was my bedroom right there.
4
SPEAKER_01
I just happened to be put in this hotel and I just happened to go outside during this eclipse.
4
SPEAKER_01
What an interesting space to be able to experience.
4
SPEAKER_02
So as you learn about your condition, both through you major in it, you get a PhD in it.
4
SPEAKER_02
The only thing I compare it to is I have a friend who very late in life discovered they were on the spectrum and they just kind of rewound through their life.
4
SPEAKER_02
They re like, Oh, right.
4
SPEAKER_02
I say I like shorts because they re comfortable, but I really can only wear shorts.
4
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
4
SPEAKER_02
That s part of that.
4
SPEAKER_02
taking an inventory of their life through a new lens and things are starting to make sense more.
4
SPEAKER_02
Did you have that experience as you started studying?
4
100%.
4
SPEAKER_01
So when I heard about the term in my class, I remember feeling relief.
4
SPEAKER_01
If this is what I am, that means there s a name for what I am.
4
SPEAKER_01
There s going to be research on it.
4
SPEAKER_01
There are at least enough people to justify a whole personality type.
4
SPEAKER_01
So surely there s a treatment plan too.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I m just going to go find it. 
4
SPEAKER_01
And then it became evident that there was no treatment plan and there was very little research.
4
SPEAKER_01
So when I went to see my therapist, I was very upfront about it.
4
SPEAKER_01
This is what I think is happening.
4
SPEAKER_01
Here are the reasons that I think they re happening.
4
SPEAKER_01
And let s start from there because I didn t want to go in hiding anything or being cagey because what a waste of time that would have been.
4
SPEAKER_01
So it was pretty quick.
4
SPEAKER_02
Now, despite the fact you say in the book, and boy do I relate to this, like I should have been arrested so many times, it s crazy, you never got caught, you stole cars, you broke into people s houses, you really didn t have any of those conventional consequences, but I m curious, even though you weren t taking on the emotional weight of having disappointed people or hurt people,
4
SPEAKER_02
Was there an amount of wreckage accumulating in your life that was an incentive to try to find a treatment for this?
4
SPEAKER_02
Like the notion that you were in search of some treatment plan for this to me implies there was some wreckage accumulating or something that would incentivize you having treatment.
4
SPEAKER_01
not wreckage, it was more logic for me.
4
SPEAKER_01
I remember feeling, this isn t tenable.
4
SPEAKER_01
I will get caught eventually.
4
SPEAKER_01
And contrary to popular belief, I recognize that being in a functioning society is a great thing.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it was something that I wanted to be a part of.
4
SPEAKER_01
I recognized that I wanted a relationship.
4
SPEAKER_01
I wanted a house with a picket fence.
4
SPEAKER_01
I wanted to make dinners on Sundays and listen to jazz.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I had these images in my head, and one of them came from a house that I saw when I was young.
4
SPEAKER_01
I remember seeing this man and his, I assume, wife, and they had a baby.
4
SPEAKER_01
They were opening a bottle of wine, and I just remember thinking, that s what I want.
4
SPEAKER_01
What I wanted was normal, but I don t think I understood that at the time.
4
SPEAKER_01
I remember having this conversation with myself, which was, you re going to need to decide how you want to deal with this.
4
SPEAKER_01
No answer is wrong.
4
SPEAKER_01
Just what do you want to do?
4
SPEAKER_01
And the thought that came to mind was, I want to do the same more.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s exhausting.
5
SPEAKER_00
Isolating.
5
SPEAKER_00
I want to take steps to find healthier coping mechanisms so that I m not having to rely on these largely criminal, anti-social, this is not sustainable.
5
SPEAKER_01
Got you.
5
SPEAKER_01
And what were the tools you cobbled together?
5
SPEAKER_01
And I know Dave plays a role in this.
5
SPEAKER_01
How did you put together a system for yourself?
5
SPEAKER_00
The prescriptions helped a lot at first.
5
SPEAKER_01
So there s medication?
5
SPEAKER_00
No, my behavioral prescriptions.
5
SPEAKER_00
I wish there was medication.
5
SPEAKER_00
These prescriptive behaviors worked a lot at first, but like a regular prescription, I started weaning myself off of them.
5
SPEAKER_00
Can you give some examples of what those were?
5
SPEAKER_00
So I m very aware that these are not normal behaviors, but I restricted myself to stalking and breaking into homes.
5
SPEAKER_00
I said, no more car theft because that s, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
5
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
5
SPEAKER_01
So stalking was allowed and breaking in.
5
SPEAKER_01
B and E. For me.
5
SPEAKER_01
This is kind of like SLA, where you set your own definition of sobriety.
5
SPEAKER_00
Correct.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I ve decided that these things are perfectly fine.
5
SPEAKER_00
Again, cognitively, I knew they weren t.
5
SPEAKER_01
They were an improvement.
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, when I went to the library and I looked up stalking, I saw that stalking was largely based, again, on motivation.
5
SPEAKER_00
You re stalking someone with the intent of scaring them or harming them.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, well, I m not doing that.
5
SPEAKER_00
So this is fine.
5
SPEAKER_00
I would follow people.
5
SPEAKER_00
I would watch them.
5
SPEAKER_00
I would follow them home.
5
SPEAKER_00
I would watch them.
5
SPEAKER_01
Would you get busted with people going, what the fuck?
5
SPEAKER_00
Never.
5
SPEAKER_00
Didn t I just see you at 7-Eleven?
5
SPEAKER_00
When I was like 12, I got busted by somebody walking down the sidewalk.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it was, hey, what are you doing?
5
SPEAKER_00
And I remember turning around and really leaning into my lack of fear.
5
SPEAKER_00
When I stepped forward, it registered on the guy s face, oh, this is a child.
5
SPEAKER_00
Because I stepped into what had to have been the moon.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I remember going, shh, we re playing hide and seek.
5
SPEAKER_00
And running, knowing full well how
5
SPEAKER_00
That was so scary.
5
SPEAKER_00
He would ve had a gun, he would ve shot you.
5
SPEAKER_00
I remember that moment, those little streaks of like, I like the fact that I m not scared.
5
SPEAKER_00
And if I had been caught later in life, I would have had some innocuous reasons.
5
SPEAKER_00
I would have made sure it didn t feel scary to that person.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then I started sort of weaning myself off.
5
SPEAKER_00
If I was doing it three times a week, I would start doing it two times a week and then one time a week.
5
SPEAKER_00
But then I noticed that in weaning myself off, the pressure would start to build.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I would sort of try to supplement that with
5
SPEAKER_00
cognitive behavioral interventions really, really worked for me.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I feel that it would be beneficial to anyone who is on the mild to moderate side of the sociopathic spectrum, because it s the behavior you want to address first.
5
SPEAKER_00
Because when you look at sociopathic diagnostics, it s all rooted in behavior.
5
SPEAKER_00
But the behavior is just a reaction to what s going on up here.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I ve always found that to be troublesome because if you re only judging someone based on their behavior, you re never going to get to the root cause of it.
5
SPEAKER_00
I tried to eliminate the behavior using journaling.
5
SPEAKER_00
So when I would be on my lowest, quote unquote, dose of prescription, I would start to write, I want to go out and break into someone s house because if I don t, I m afraid I ll hurt someone.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then it was a reframe based on logic.
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, you ve never hurt someone other than when you were very young.
5
SPEAKER_00
You have managed to curb these impulses both with and without prescriptions.
5
SPEAKER_00
The odds of that happening are low.
5
SPEAKER_00
So just these thoughts, counter thoughts, and then also analysis, talk therapy.
5
SPEAKER_00
Once the behavior had stopped, I was able to sit with that discomfort and then explore that discomfort.
5
SPEAKER_00
And that was
5
SPEAKER_00
really, really helpful to not just stop the behavior, but reframe the whole picture and come up with different coping mechanisms for what was essentially anxiety related to the fact that I didn t feel the way I was, quote unquote, supposed to.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s one of my big questions.
5
SPEAKER_01
What is the relationship between sociopathy and anxiety?
5
SPEAKER_01
Because on the outside, I would think you d be completely free of anxiety.
5
SPEAKER_00
Anxiety related to things like what people think, or am I going to get this wrong, or am I going to be in trouble?
5
SPEAKER_00
What I was able to figure out was that my anxiety, and this tracks with a lot of the research, one of the first researchers to really dig into this hypothesized that sociopathic behavior was related to emotional conflict and inner frustration.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I really landed on that because it was
5
SPEAKER_00
this feeling that I was supposed to be feeling a certain way, and that if I didn t, I was going to be removed from my social comforts.
5
SPEAKER_00
And this feeling that I had to act a certain way, I had to keep the mask on.
5
SPEAKER_01
This is like a closeted gay person.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
I have thought about that multiple times.
5
SPEAKER_00
One of my closest friends is gay, and he said the same thing.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I said, you can say it, but I promise you, if I go out there and I start equating,
5
SPEAKER_01
I ll do it for you.
5
SPEAKER_00
Thank you.
5
SPEAKER_01
I play it fast and loose with these comparisons.
5
SPEAKER_00
Amazing.
5
SPEAKER_00
The sociopathic perception as it exists today is horrible.
5
SPEAKER_00
So nobody wants to be called that, but it s exactly how I felt.
5
SPEAKER_00
I have to act this way.
5
SPEAKER_00
Otherwise, I will not be given access to these things that I really should be allowed to have access to.
5
SPEAKER_00
Once the element of, who says you re supposed to act that way?
5
SPEAKER_00
Why don t you just start telling people, hey, I m a sociopath and it s not what you think it is.
5
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Once I sort of realized that, the anxiety was all but gone.
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Wow.
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So this is you kind of stepping into the truth.
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When does this happen?
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Does it start with Dave?
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Probably.
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And he didn t run out the door.
5
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It really started with my father.
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He s the one that sent you there.
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Yes.
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Look, my father is colorful and he has a very high tolerance for pathology.
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Well, he s in the music business.
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Yeah.
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And it s sort of a prerequisite.
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So with my father, it was always, you can tell me anything and we re going to find a solution.
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With David, it was more, you can tell me anything, but I m not going to help you get out of trouble.
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We re going to stop you from putting yourself in situations where you get into trouble.
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So it really started with my dad giving me the space to say, I don t feel things like that.
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And I don t have shame.
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I don t connect to people the way that everybody else connects.
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And yet everyone is always, always expecting me to have these emotional reactions.
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And I m tired.
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I just want to be alone all the time.
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And some of that, what you spoke to before, you acting out because you were angry, you suffered all of this, and now you re going to, you know, take what s mine.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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There was some of that creeping in.
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Well, how could you not resent
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The you.
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Right.
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And I guarantee you that this is what drives other sociopathic behavior.
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The darker, yeah.
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Absolutely.
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Because again, I had everything.
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I had all of these resources and people and relationships.
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You had that you were born in a one bedroom trailer with six other kids.
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Yes.
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Now you re on a different path altogether.
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Correct.
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And so what s interesting is that moment where your father is accepting of this news
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Of course, my first thought would be, oh, I would feel acceptance.
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But actually, I imagine you didn t feel acceptance, but you cognitively knew, well, he didn t reject me.
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Correct.
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So like the story I ve been telling myself that I can t exist as myself without being rejected might have some holes in it.
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Less rejection, because I didn t really ever care about rejection, but just prevent it.
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You can t participate in an army.
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Correct.
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Yeah.
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Yes.
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The velvet rope is off limits to you.
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My goal was to work in the prison system.
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You re never going to get to do that.
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You re never going to get to be a lawyer.
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You re never going to get to have any of these things.
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So it was more that.
5
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That makes sense.
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So dad, you re like, okay, he s a chink in the logic you ve assembled.
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And then Dave is another step in maybe a different direction.
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And then the two of you cobbled together some kind of strategic stuff.
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It was really me and my therapist seeing what worked and seeing what didn t.
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Cause there is no treatment plan.
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for sociopathy.
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In fact, one of the reasons why it s rarely diagnosed is because the sort of unspoken understanding in the prison system and the juvenile delinquent system is as soon as a kid is diagnosed as antisocial or an adult is sociopathic or psychopathic, they re considered
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irredeemable.
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There s not going to be any treatment plan because they ve already written it off.
5
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So it was really just us trying to figure out based on my experience of things and what worked for me and what didn t, what s the best way.
5
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But the number one thing that was the most beneficial to me was normalization, not of behavior, but of feeling or lack thereof.
5
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Once it was, hey, you know what, I don t feel anything and that s fine.
5
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Right, right, right.
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Then your anxiety was gone.
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You had to practice.
5
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I had to practice.
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I don t practice anymore.
5
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Right.
5
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And I thought this was really interesting.
5
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There is a commonly held belief that a therapist should be extremely empathetic and emotionally invested.
5
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How did your approach differ?
5
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And what do you think is the strengths and the weaknesses of being a therapist who is on the sociopathy scale?
5
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I remember sitting in clinical practicum with someone else who was talking about how they were seeing someone that they didn t like.
5
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I can t remember the exact example, but it s like, she talks about getting her nails done all the time, and I can t stand people to get their nails done all the time.
5
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But I just thought, how the fuck do you factor into this?
5
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You re not there to co-sign what this person s doing.
5
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And I remember a lot of work spent on helping people withstand their patient s transference, which is what the patient projects onto their therapist.
5
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So you re not really mad at me, you re mad at your mother.
5
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And you re projecting that on to me and how we deal with this in therapy is for me to observe that and say, hey, I m noticing the feelings you re having about me right now sort of resemble what we talked about last week.
5
SPEAKER_00
But the problem is a lot of times therapists, as soon as that hits them, they get defensive and angry.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so they have to find ways to compartmentalize their own emotions so that their emotions don t
6
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usurp those of their patient.
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I remember being like, I m all set on this.
6
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So when patients would like let it rip on you with some transference, you were unruffled?
6
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Completely.
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But interested, observant.
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Hey, are you noticing that you just called me a bitch?
6
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But that s the same thing you used to call your mom.
6
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As opposed to, I can t believe this woman just called me a bitch.
6
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I didn t have those reactions.
6
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You could see objectively.
6
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Right.
6
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I was a volunteer grief counselor here and there and showing up at places where people had just been through absolutely agonizing, traumatizing events and being able to go in and sit and allow them to tell me everything in detail.
6
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And they didn t have to worry that I might start crying.
6
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You know, as a therapist, if you get emotional, you get emotional.
6
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But how I perceive that as problematic is if I start crying while you tell me your story, you re going to immediately want to caretake.
6
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Or you re going to immediately want to make me feel better about the story you re telling me.
6
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And they don t have to worry about me.
6
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I m a vessel.
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I m not going to react to anything.
6
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You can tell me anything.
6
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I m not going to judge you for it.
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I m not going to have my own emotional reaction that matches yours.
6
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Well, that s a sidebar.
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You found that as you ve now moved through the world, being very upfront about being a sociopath, people start telling you really crazy, random stuff.
6
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Like a guy at a party said, I think about killing my wife all the time.
6
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I ve even explored through a friend if they knew somebody.
6
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Wow.
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What do you say to that?
6
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I am like stifling a laugh.
6
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That s such a wild thing to get hit with.
6
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I remember really leaning in and asking, oh wow, yeah, tell me about that.
6
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Wanting him to feel just very comfortable, easy breezy.
6
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Now, the reason you know that is because it was discussed in an interview and what did not get discussed was my reaction after the fact.
6
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And what I noticed is that a lot of people were very angry at me for not doing more to protect.
6
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Intervene.
6
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And yet, who s to say I didn t?
6
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I actually did.
6
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The reason that I kept that man speaking is because I wanted to find out where he lived.
6
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I wanted to know his wife s name.
6
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Tell me how you want to do it.
6
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Like, oh, tell me about her.
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She sounds awful.
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And I got him to tell me all these things so that when I left the party, I called every single person I could think of in law enforcement.
6
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I said, hey, this guy has been saying this.
6
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He s been doing that.
6
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And I remember stalking this woman to make sure that she was okay.
6
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But what was interesting to me is that
6
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By virtue of my sociopathic diagnosis, this woman heard this man say this at a party and she did nothing.
6
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When in fact, that s not true.
6
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But that assumption is automatically made because of my diagnosis.
6
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Well, I could even gnarlier on that.
6
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There s a paradox there, which is the person that was judgmental of you is the exact person that no one would ever tell anything to.
6
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So they re not doing more either.
6
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They re just never getting the truth.
6
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Again, the parallel I saw was like, that s why I love AA is you can go in there and every one of us is a scumbag.
6
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We ve all done all the shit.
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And as a place where you can be fucking honest and no one s there to feel morally superior to anyone else.
6
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It s such a breath of fresh air.
6
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Like I couldn t have made it to 49 without that place because of that.
6
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I had too much stuff to unload that I needed other people to be able to handle and not be judgmental of.
6
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So.
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I personally see the value in that.
6
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Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.
6
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We got to circle into Dave and how you did find a version of love that evolved through Dave and then also having kids.
6
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David.
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David.
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He hates Dave.
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Oh, that s so funny.
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We have a friend named David who also hates Dave.
6
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So at one time, my father s Dave, my brother s Dave, and my stepdad was Dave.
6
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So one was David, one was Dave, one was Barton, had to go by his last name.
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Obviously the last Dave, my stepdad had to go by Barton.
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But that s how it was decided.
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I don t really know that any of them had a preference other than we had to distinguish them.
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Okay, so David, how do you come to experience something that you would label your version of love or how did that grow?
6
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Well, we met when I was 14.
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So really young.
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And I m grateful for that because I don t think that we would have been a match later.
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But I remember at that time, I felt very isolated.
6
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I was looking for a buddy to kind of bounce stuff off of and in that moment he just happened to come into my life and he was that buddy.
6
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I could tell him anything and he didn t judge me for it.
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He just took it in and rolled with it and he looked at my actions objectively and
6
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he would let me know if he didn t think something was a good idea, but it was not met with any type of negativity.
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So we dated for a summer, you know, I m 14 years old, but it was so matter of fact, my feelings about him when I met him.
6
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I remember thinking, my name is Patrick.
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I am attending this summer camp.
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I just met the guy I m going to marry.
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I m going to have pizza for dinner later.
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I remember writing it in my journal, but it didn t feel like
6
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What all of the girls that I knew, oh, you know, this romantic love and I know I m just going to marry him.
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It wasn t that.
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It was very matter of fact.
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You didn t sit around wondering if he was thinking about you or talking about you?
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No.
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And so when we broke up, it was more like a, that s weird.
6
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I really thought I was going to marry that guy.
6
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So strange.
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I never had a feeling like that before.
6
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And it was so pronounced.
6
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I wonder what that was, because that was so true in the way it came through.
6
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But we never really lost touch, and he went one way, I went the other, and I lived an entire lifetime before we got back together.
6
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And when we did, we had this wonderful honeymoon period, and then reality set in, which is, I have this personality disorder, and I m really struggling with some things, and David really had a hard time not taking it personally.
6
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So for him, it was, I don t emote the same way he does, therefore I don t care about him as much as he cares about me.
6
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And everything was seen sort of through a very egocentric lens.
6
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Not in the sense that he was in the wrong, but I think it s a very relatable feeling.
6
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If you go in for a big hug and the person doesn t want a big hug, your instant reaction is, oh, I guess she doesn t like me very much.
6
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But I m just not that person, but I ve never been that person.
6
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So that was a struggle.
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You have to take yourself out of this equation.
6
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In order for you and I to work, you have to see that you are one type of person.
6
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I am one type of a person.
6
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We love and demonstrate that love very differently.
6
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Neither way is right or wrong.
6
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It s just different.
6
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And if you were expecting that one day you are going to fix me, we should just stop.
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No, it s just not.
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The irony is that s all relationships.
6
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And that s what I ve heard.
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Yeah.
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It s just that it s so clear here and there s no arguing like, okay, you have this personality disorder.
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It s almost helpful.
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Exactly.
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You re never going to get what you want.
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You either accept that and we move forward.
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But I think when you have this neurotypical relationship, there is this fantasy belief that no, you will end up manipulating them.
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Yeah, and we have limitations too, in the exact same way that also cannot be transcended.
6
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That s why I wrote this book, because there are so many relatable elements to this.
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And I think that if the sociopathic camp and the non-sociopathic camp could just drop it for a second and get together and sort of talk, you would see how much we could learn from one another.
6
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But with David, he did have an argument, but you re doing illegal shit.
6
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and it s my job to protect you. 
6
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It always came from a place of morality.
6
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The things you re doing are immoral and I need to help you stop doing those things.
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So he had that really effective, logical argument that was tough to push back on.
6
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But ultimately, I need to want to stop doing these things for myself.
6
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I would have looked up the moral card.
6
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I would have just said, the things you re doing are illegal and are going to end up getting you incarcerated.
6
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I would not argue with that.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Let s leave morals out of it for you.
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Yeah, again, he s using an argument that works in his brain.
6
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Italian Catholic.
6
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Oh, this is great.
6
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Talk about polar end of the spectrum.
6
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Yeah.
6
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Emotional all the time.
6
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And big emotions.
6
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How did the children, so you already touched on it, you have a child and you re not feeling those feelings you see on TV or read about in books.
6
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Does that scare you at all?
6
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You don t get scared.
6
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I was pissed.
6
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Because that was your last ditch effort.
6
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It was my last one.
6
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I was so angry at myself for allowing even the tiniest bit of light to shine through.
6
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You should have known.
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And because you put your faith even slightly in that, this kid s going to suffer because now you re pissed off.
6
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And I was so angry.
6
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But then once that anger subsided, it was, oh, you know what?
6
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I just need to get to know his personality.
6
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And again, the curiosity, the, oh, look at how he does this stuff and processes these things.
6
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It s so interesting.
6
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And then it was effortless after that.
6
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So many women talk about the baby stage, like, oh, I just don t
6
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the baby stage.
6
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I wish we could go back to the baby stage. 
6
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No.
6
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I like having someone who can tell me what s going on, what s wrong, what they re feeling.
6
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I think my personality was definitely working against me in terms of a baby s crying and you have to figure out why.
6
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I don t know.
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I can t read this.
6
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Yeah, if there s any responsibility that feels uniquely centered in empathy, it is that one.
6
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You re
6
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Unhappy, what is it?
6
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Ah, did David need to be a little more involved?
6
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He was so involved and I m really grateful because he was the interpreter.
6
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Yeah, he was
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And then once I was able to see enough of those interpretations, then I caught on.
7
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You could log them.
7
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Yes.
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Were you afraid at all before you had your kids that those compulsions would arise in the same way or that you might want to hurt them or any of that?
7
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I was so grateful that I did not have those feelings, but I do know that they exist.
7
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My bridge to empathy started with sociopathy.
7
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So the idea that there are other women who are afraid of potentially hurting their kids, I can extend that bridge because I know what it s like to have an impulse to do something that I know I don t really want to do.
7
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Okay.
7
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My last question is, do you have gratitude for your sociopathy and do you have resentment?
7
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I really have so much gratitude for my sociopathy and the opportunities I was given to not just experience it, but also observe it and come to understand it.
7
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Because one of the reasons why I wrote this book is because I m trying to not discount the harmful extreme types, but to just include all of the other not so harmful extreme types.
7
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to let people understand this personality type can be used destructively but can also be used constructively.
7
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I see my friends grapple with guilt and I m really glad that I don t.
7
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I see my friends grapple with shame.
7
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I have a friend who I don t know that she ll ever get out of the shame spiral that she s in every day over things that I perceive to be so trivial like who
7
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Who gives a shit?
7
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It s okay, you shouldn t be suffering from this self-loathing for what?
7
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And I never had that, that I can recall.
7
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So I have so much gratitude.
7
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I do wish that I was able to connect with people.
7
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People tend to judge sociopaths because they don t connect to others.
7
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Sociopaths don t connect because they can t connect to others.
7
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And that is a big distinction.
7
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Don t and can t, one implies a choice.
7
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And that was hard for me.
7
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I remember graduating and having everybody coming up to me, aren t you excited?
7
SPEAKER_00
Aren t you excited?
7
SPEAKER_00
And I just didn t internalize any of that.
7
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But I wanted to be excited.
7
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I wanted to have those feelings.
7
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I see other people and how they re experiencing it.
7
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And it was very isolating.
7
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No, I m not.
7
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And how do I explain this to you?
7
SPEAKER_00
You re coming in and you re so excited for me.
7
SPEAKER_00
I can t make you understand.
7
SPEAKER_00
I don t have that.
7
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That happens with neurotypical people.
7
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It makes me think immediately of Wednesday.
7
SPEAKER_00
Oh, Jenna Ortega.
7
SPEAKER_01
Jenna Ortega.
7
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She has this enormous meteoric rise and this obvious talent, and everyone around her is so excited, and the pressure of internalizing that excitement is not possible.
7
SPEAKER_00
Interesting that you should bring up Jenna Ortega and Wednesday because people ask a lot about sociopaths and pop culture and how they re portrayed in cinema and television.
7
SPEAKER_00
How do I feel about that?
7
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And I ve always been frustrated by these one-dimensional characters.
7
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And I said, but one has recently risen to the surface and it s Wednesday.
7
SPEAKER_00
That s so true.
7
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You understand that Wednesday Adams checks every single box on the sociopathic checklist, but she s also capable of developing close relationships.
7
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She does it differently, but she does it.
7
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She loves her parents.
7
SPEAKER_00
She s sad when her pet is taken from her.
7
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It s not your typical pet, but she s sad nonetheless.
7
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She s loyal.
7
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She goes all in for her friends.
7
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And what people don t understand is that is sensationalized for sure, but that is a far more complete picture
7
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of the sociopathic composite.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s not just the bad stuff.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s all this other stuff too.
7
SPEAKER_00
When I saw that, I was really happy.
7
SPEAKER_01
Hey, I love that show.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s one of my favorite shows.
7
SPEAKER_01
And to me, it seems so obvious why so many women would love that character because it s completely liberated from people-pleasing societal pressures on women to make everyone feel comfortable all the time.
7
SPEAKER_01
And you can tell all neurotypical women are feeling the weight of that all the time.
7
SPEAKER_01
And they re looking at this person going like,
7
SPEAKER_01
Could I really just maybe do exactly what I want and not have to fucking worry about how it s impacting everyone around me?
7
SPEAKER_00
Children too.
7
SPEAKER_00
I can t tell you how much joy it brought me this Halloween to see all of these children not just wearing her costumes but taking on her personality.
7
SPEAKER_00
I remember looking at one of them and smiling and she just...
7
SPEAKER_00
I m so happy that you have chosen this emotional outlier as your Halloween hero and you are completely all in.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s also how I introduced this subject matter to my children.
7
SPEAKER_00
They have a peripheral understanding, a working knowledge of the work I do and the book that I wrote.
7
SPEAKER_00
But when we sat down to watch Wednesday, I just let them watch.
7
SPEAKER_00
They connected.
7
SPEAKER_00
They re like, mommy, this is like you.
7
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, yes, I m the blonde version of her.
7
SPEAKER_00
Surely I m not going quite as extreme as she is, but it s a really interesting cocktail of cold and warmth that she has.
7
SPEAKER_00
And it really is true.
7
SPEAKER_01
It just reminded me, and I m glad you just brought it up, because you said in the book it s very common for a sociopath to have the feelings we would expect for them to have about humans for pets.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
7
SPEAKER_01
What is the explanation of that?
7
SPEAKER_00
I can t tell you.
7
SPEAKER_00
There s been some research where some of the most prolific serial killers have had very intense bonds with their animals.
7
SPEAKER_00
And certainly there is also research that indicates that early psychopathic behavior typically presents in early mutilation of animals, torture of animals.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I m not discounting that, but these are two truths that cannot be held.
7
SPEAKER_00
You can t say that this person is a psychopath, therefore they re completely incapable of any type of bond.
7
SPEAKER_00
They re harming these people, and yet the feelings they have about their pets is insurmountable emotionally to them.
7
SPEAKER_00
There needs to be more research to connect those dots.
7
SPEAKER_01
Also, there s probably some temptation to weave in any observation as being a part of the ism, which also could have nothing to do with it.
7
SPEAKER_01
So I have my own armchair theory about people who love animals a lot.
7
SPEAKER_01
Some people push back on this, but...
7
SPEAKER_01
I have found it interesting that if people have had really complicated relationships with parents that are very pluralistic or hard to figure out their real motives, the joy of being able to give love to something that s not going to try to manipulate you back.
7
SPEAKER_01
We do want to send love and that it s just too high risk for a lot of people who have been in situations where they re just exploited every time they do that.
7
SPEAKER_01
that of course this thing would appeal to you.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s a completely non-manipulative creature that you re able to share love with without any fear of it being leveraged against you.
7
SPEAKER_01
And I could apply that to someone dealing with sociopathy or psychopathy.
7
SPEAKER_01
You still want to love something, but you can t do it in the way everyone else would accept it.
7
SPEAKER_01
And here s this very non-complicated furry thing that you can pick up and hold.
7
SPEAKER_01
It might not even be part of the condition, but also makes sense for the condition.
7
SPEAKER_01
I don t know.
7
SPEAKER_00
They re not going to judge either.
7
SPEAKER_00
So you have all of these antisocial tendencies.
7
SPEAKER_00
You have flat affect.
7
SPEAKER_00
You don t ever have to wear a mask around your animals.
7
SPEAKER_00
I have noticed that for me, dogs are tricky because dogs- They re empathic.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
7
SPEAKER_00
And they really want to show you how much they love you all the time.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I have struggled with that.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I try to be mindful.
7
SPEAKER_01
You had a ferret.
7
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I love that.
7
SPEAKER_00
But see, she was so mischievous.
7
SPEAKER_00
Do you love cats?
7
SPEAKER_00
She was a little shit, too.
7
SPEAKER_00
Oh, God, she was such a thief.
7
SPEAKER_01
Oh, they are the ultimate thieves.
7
SPEAKER_00
Years after she died, I found treasure troves behind the couches, and she would gnaw the heads off of our Barbie dolls and drag them down the hall to whatever trove that she had decided she was going to put it.
7
SPEAKER_00
We d never see it again.
7
SPEAKER_00
But they love shiny objects, so anything gold, silver, if you left it out, it would be gone.
7
SPEAKER_00
She d take it.
7
SPEAKER_01
Aaron had two ferrets and he d have to pick up the couch like once a week to find everything in the house that was missing.
7
SPEAKER_00
Oh my god.
7
SPEAKER_01
So do you like cats too?
7
SPEAKER_00
I do.
7
SPEAKER_01
For all the reasons I don t like cats, you like cats.
7
SPEAKER_00
I m sure.
7
SPEAKER_00
They don t care.
7
SPEAKER_00
They re indifferent to you.
7
SPEAKER_00
They re indifferent.
7
SPEAKER_00
They will eat your body within 24 hours of death.
7
SPEAKER_00
We just learned this.
7
SPEAKER_00
A hundred percent.
7
SPEAKER_01
A hundred percent.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, a meal s a meal.
7
SPEAKER_01
They re not sentimental.
7
SPEAKER_01
They re not like, this person wouldn t care.
7
SPEAKER_01
They re dead.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I have the meanest cat alive.
7
SPEAKER_00
I shouldn t tell this story, but I m going to.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, do it.
7
SPEAKER_01
Take the mask off, whatever.
7
SPEAKER_00
I was bored, and there was this plea for a foster for kittens.
7
SPEAKER_00
Kittens, can we get somebody to foster kittens?
7
SPEAKER_00
And I ve never fostered, but I was like, all right, what am I doing?
7
SPEAKER_00
That s even the scale.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, sure.
7
SPEAKER_01
This will buy me something.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_00
So I bring these kittens home, and they don t have their mother.
7
SPEAKER_00
Their mother s gone.
7
SPEAKER_00
And one by one, they just start dying.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I m taking them to the rescue place and I m rushing them, like, something s wrong, something s wrong.
7
SPEAKER_00
And every time I did, I was met with like, yeah, it happens.
7
SPEAKER_00
Like, you re not even going to try to save.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I remember one kitten was crying, obviously in pain, and I rushed to the rescue.
7
SPEAKER_00
They took the kitten back and I heard the kitten in pain and pain, and then it just stopped.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, you just killed that cat.
7
SPEAKER_00
And the guy came out and he goes, sometimes these things happen.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I just was like, got it, pal.
7
SPEAKER_00
So there was one cat left.
7
SPEAKER_00
Black cat.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, you re not dying on my watch.
7
SPEAKER_00
So I took him to my vet.
7
SPEAKER_00
I got him pumped full of every vitamin, mineral, antibiotic known to man.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I watched over him and got him to a point where he was stable and then kept waiting for the rescue to call.
7
SPEAKER_00
They didn t call.
7
SPEAKER_00
And then finally, six months later, they call.
8
SPEAKER_01
And he s sitting in my lap purring.
8
SPEAKER_01
I have the rescue on the phone and they re like, hi, we re calling about the last foster kitten.
8
SPEAKER_01
He said the other ones died.
8
SPEAKER_01
What happened to him?
8
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, he s dead.
8
SPEAKER_01
Because they said, we want you to bring him in for a checkup.
8
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, you re not getting your hands on this cat.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
The last thing, what intrusive question would you want to ask?
8
SPEAKER_01
What I would ask you?
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh, man.
8
SPEAKER_00
We don t have to do this, but I m curious.
8
SPEAKER_00
I know we don t.
8
SPEAKER_01
No.
8
SPEAKER_00
I would want to know, what was your worst behavioral choice?
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh, sure, sure, sure.
8
SPEAKER_00
Well, I tried to rob 7-Eleven.
8
SPEAKER_01
How d that go?
8
SPEAKER_00
It didn t go well.
8
SPEAKER_00
I kept my helmet on and I had a prop gun.
8
SPEAKER_00
I told him to give me the money and he goes, fuck you.
8
SPEAKER_00
Clearly this poor guy had been probably robbed several times.
8
SPEAKER_00
Somehow he knew I wasn t the shooting kind.
8
SPEAKER_00
And then I panicked and raced out of there and I had to put a handkerchief over the license plate of my motorcycle.
8
SPEAKER_00
But I don t even know that that s the worst one.
8
SPEAKER_00
That one just comes to mind where I could have gone to jail for sure over that.
8
SPEAKER_00
And a student at UCLA.
8
SPEAKER_01
While you were a student?
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
Was this the 7-Eleven in Westwood?
8
SPEAKER_00
No, this was the 7-Eleven at Wilshire and probably 7th-ish in Santa Monica.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I specifically went there because I never went to that one.
8
SPEAKER_00
I always went to the one at like 20th in Santa Monica Boulevard.
8
SPEAKER_00
So many.
8
SPEAKER_00
Terrible.
8
SPEAKER_00
Endless.
8
SPEAKER_01
I m just curious because that would be my deep dive.
8
SPEAKER_01
Talk to me about everything.
8
SPEAKER_01
And it s tricky because these invasive questions, people don t want to answer or they want to take a beat before they answer.
8
SPEAKER_01
And I get that.
8
SPEAKER_00
But actually, like, if we were at a dinner party, I actually would live for this.
8
SPEAKER_00
I m virtually doing the same thing you do.
8
SPEAKER_00
You re like, great, great, great.
8
SPEAKER_00
You re like, let s get into the trauma.
8
SPEAKER_00
What happened in childhood?
8
SPEAKER_00
Something happened.
8
SPEAKER_00
What happened?
8
SPEAKER_00
I m almost bored by anything short of that.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s interesting, especially when it comes to destructive behavior, because to your point, you knew that what you were doing was wrong.
8
SPEAKER_00
I covered my license plate.
8
SPEAKER_01
But my understanding is nothing exists in that moment between the behavior and what s on the other side, which is the alcohol or the drugs or whatever it is you re after.
8
SPEAKER_01
But there is something that exists in that.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s almost like the trapeze where you let go of one and you haven t quite made it to the next.
8
SPEAKER_01
That s the part I want to explore.
8
SPEAKER_01
Because there s so much in that moment when you were in that 7-Eleven and the guy screamed, fuck you.
8
SPEAKER_01
There s so much more in there that was happening.
8
SPEAKER_01
And I would want to dig into all of that.
8
SPEAKER_00
Well, that was one that really reeked of my sense of justice.
8
SPEAKER_00
I was obsessed with this movie thief by Michael Mann.
8
SPEAKER_00
My pattern was I would get hammered and my girlfriend go to bed.
8
SPEAKER_00
I d get even more hammered.
8
SPEAKER_00
I d watch thief.
8
SPEAKER_00
And then it become obsessed with the notion of like, I deserve to have money and I don t know how to get it.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I m going to take it.
8
SPEAKER_00
I just have to be willing to do it and I m a fucking pussy if I don t do it and you re a coward and all this stuff about being a boy too and not tough enough or brave enough and I would just whip myself into this lather of like what a fucking scared little boy I was if I didn t go just take what I know I want and I d be hammered and I would just make these decisions like now s the time.
8
SPEAKER_01
So you don t get the money, you leave the 7-Eleven.
8
SPEAKER_00
The headline s the 7-Eleven.
8
SPEAKER_00
The real story is the fact that I didn t T-bone a car and die riding my motorcycle, because now I m like adrenaline through the roof.
8
SPEAKER_00
I m running away from a 7-Eleven I just tried to rob.
8
SPEAKER_00
Him saying, fuck you is a little sobering.
8
SPEAKER_00
Now I m racing away from 7-Eleven.
8
SPEAKER_00
I ve got about, I don t know, 12 blocks to go.
8
SPEAKER_00
And part of my brain screaming, don t drive erratically.
8
SPEAKER_00
You ll get pulled over.
8
SPEAKER_00
The other part is like, fuck everything, get home and get off the street and get into your bed and lock the door.
8
SPEAKER_00
And let s hope that nothing ever comes of this.
8
SPEAKER_00
And so that ride home is probably the most dangerous aspect of the story.
8
SPEAKER_00
I was riding as if I was already being chased by the cops.
8
SPEAKER_01
See, that s so interesting because what I interpret is that there was some part of you that wanted to be chased by the cops.
8
SPEAKER_01
You had no control over your addiction, but if they had picked you up and put you in a jail cell, you would have had no choice.
8
SPEAKER_00
They would have controlled it for me.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, because the drive out, when you know that you re basically putting a target on yourself by driving that way,
8
SPEAKER_00
Well, yes, but I don t think I wanted to get arrested.
8
SPEAKER_01
I don t think it was conscious.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
I m doing something that s counter to the goal of not getting arrested to get into a detail.
8
SPEAKER_00
The plan was I would get that money.
8
SPEAKER_00
I would drive a block.
8
SPEAKER_00
I would rip the bandana off the license plate because clearly if I m driving through Santa Monica at two in the morning with a bandana over my license plate, I m going to get pulled over.
8
SPEAKER_00
So part of the plan was to the second I was out of frame of any cameras or anything,
8
SPEAKER_00
I was going to get that bandana off.
8
SPEAKER_00
But then once I was on the bike, we re like, no, stopping for the bandana is more risk.
8
SPEAKER_00
We just have to go a million miles an hour and get off the street.
8
SPEAKER_01
What is that expression?
8
SPEAKER_01
The mind is a wonderful servant, but a terrible master.
8
SPEAKER_01
And I think that your mind was probably acting as a really great servant in that moment where it was doing the things that your logic was telling you to do.
8
SPEAKER_01
But I remember there is a scene when I made the decision to jump out of this second or third floor balcony at UCLA.
8
SPEAKER_01
And I knew I wasn t gonna die, but I remember
8
SPEAKER_01
Afterwards, this fleeting thought is, I was hoping I d break a leg because I was thinking if I could just be in a wheelchair, I couldn t do these things.
8
SPEAKER_01
It was so fleeting.
8
SPEAKER_01
But again, I obviously didn t want that because there are much more effective ways to make sure your legs get broken than jumping out of a window that I knew goddamn well wasn t going to deliver.
8
SPEAKER_01
But there s some part where that unconscious part of your brain is working, but the conscious part is working harder to make sure that you don t self-harm.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, where you and I would differ is that hovering above all of this at all time was my mom.
8
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
8
SPEAKER_00
While I m racing home, I m like, my mother would be like, what happened?
8
SPEAKER_00
I gave him everything and I loved him.
8
SPEAKER_00
And why is he being this dangerous and he s going to die?
8
SPEAKER_00
Like the voice of my mom and the responsibility to my mom and my mom would want better for me.
8
SPEAKER_00
Like the mom, mom, mom, mom, mom was like constantly.
8
SPEAKER_00
That does change things.
8
SPEAKER_00
Joining me on the motorcycle ride, despite what it looked like.
8
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
8
SPEAKER_01
Have you ever diagnosed someone else as sociopathic just from being around them?
8
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
8
SPEAKER_01
The interesting thing about the PCL, which is the assessment used for diagnosing psychopathy and sociopathy, it s a conversation that you have with someone else.
8
SPEAKER_01
That person doesn t realize.
8
SPEAKER_01
Otherwise, you could say, have you ever done this?
8
SPEAKER_01
And they re going to, yeah, it s a bias.
8
SPEAKER_01
But you have a conversation with someone and you have those questions in the back of your head, but they don t know you have those questions.
8
SPEAKER_01
So you re just rolling through asking and getting this information.
8
SPEAKER_01
So have I issued a formal diagnosis to someone else who didn t necessarily want it?
8
SPEAKER_01
No, but there have been tons of times where I ve been sitting across from someone and I m thinking,
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that was the same question I have.
8
SPEAKER_00
It was like, within 30 seconds, I know someone s an addict.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
I m not supposed to.
8
SPEAKER_00
The laws of AA, like only you can diagnose yourself as being an addict.
8
SPEAKER_00
But I m like, yeah, this person, they re wrestling with this.
8
SPEAKER_01
You know what it is?
8
SPEAKER_01
It s the lights are on, but no one s home, kind of, where you re saying all the right things and doing all the right things, but you can t tell me your kid s birthdays.
8
SPEAKER_01
Just little... Oh, that s interesting.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
8
Oh.
8
SPEAKER_01
You weave it through really chill.
8
SPEAKER_00
March 27th and December 19th.
8
SPEAKER_01
You get them talking.
8
SPEAKER_01
They re going to fall for the bait of, oh yeah, a good person loves their kids.
8
SPEAKER_01
You get them really focused talking about that.
8
SPEAKER_01
And it s like, oh, that s amazing.
8
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
8
SPEAKER_01
They sound like an Aries.
8
SPEAKER_01
When are their birthday?
8
SPEAKER_01
And then you see they have no idea.
8
SPEAKER_01
A little panic.
8
SPEAKER_01
And then the answer is, oh, sometime in the summer.
8
SPEAKER_01
And again, you normalize it where it s just like, yeah, totally.
8
SPEAKER_01
Everybody forgets.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s no big deal.
8
SPEAKER_01
And again, is there manipulation at play with that type of discussion?
8
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
8
SPEAKER_01
Would I do that if I was in a clinical setting?
8
SPEAKER_01
If I was in the prison system, maybe?
8
SPEAKER_01
If I was sitting across from someone who was earnestly trying to figure it out, no, you don t employ those tactics, but that s how that test is designed to be administered.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s designed to be administered in a way that the person on the other end does not know they re receiving it.
8
SPEAKER_00
It s intrinsically manipulative.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
8
SPEAKER_01
In my case, I did know that I was receiving it, but I didn t know what the questions were.
8
SPEAKER_01
It was just a conversation.
8
SPEAKER_00
Does your guard go up when you recognize someone else is sociopathic?
8
SPEAKER_01
For me, it boils down to how aware are they?
8
SPEAKER_00
Right.
8
SPEAKER_01
So if you re sitting across from someone and you can tell right away they re an addict, if 10 minutes after you make that assessment, they say to you, just so you know, I m an addict, you re like, okay, so they re on the path, they re doing the work.
8
SPEAKER_00
So someone that s completely unaware of their own sociopathy is probably a little scarier for you, even though you don t get scared, but whatever word we would use other than scared.
8
SPEAKER_00
Avoidant.
8
SPEAKER_00
Avoidant, yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
Or just- Mindful.
8
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
8
SPEAKER_01
A lot of this personality type speaks to people who would not really believe that they... So, I don t know if you re familiar with the term self-objectification.
8
SPEAKER_01
Do you know what that is?
8
SPEAKER_00
No.
8
SPEAKER_01
When you self-objectify someone, basically, if you re my self-object, you are not a person with a life outside of me.
8
SPEAKER_01
You are just an extension of me.
8
SPEAKER_00
This is what narcissists do, right?
8
SPEAKER_00
Like, you are a device by which I see my reflection or something.
8
SPEAKER_01
Correct.
8
SPEAKER_01
So that s really what pings for me, because that also tracks with sociopathy.
8
SPEAKER_01
Not, okay, so let s see how I can get this person to do my bidding, but they truly don t see you as someone other than them.
8
SPEAKER_00
That exists once they stop looking at you.
8
SPEAKER_01
So if they are engaging in behavior that is harmful to them, they will also be engaging in behavior that s harmful to you because you are an extension of them.
8
SPEAKER_01
So that s what pings for me.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_01
And just that poverty of insight also, where you can tell this person
8
SPEAKER_01
Sometimes they re aware that the things that they re saying are lies, but other times that s not true.
8
SPEAKER_01
And I bet it s not even registering for you that it s not true because you ve told this lie so many times that it has become real for you.
8
SPEAKER_01
I have a really, really hard time with denial of anything.
9
SPEAKER_01
You wrote the best New York Times piece about your husband.
9
SPEAKER_01
Is this overlap with this?
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I wasn t going to get into it, but we absolutely can.
9
SPEAKER_00
I really like to know how to orient myself in a situation.
9
SPEAKER_00
So if I m around someone who is in complete denial of something that is absolutely clearly going on, it s problematic because I like nothing s off limits.
9
SPEAKER_00
Let s just talk about it.
9
SPEAKER_00
So choosing to deny reality doesn t make that reality any less real.
9
SPEAKER_00
It just makes you less safe within that reality.
9
SPEAKER_00
And that s how I feel around people who don t have that self-awareness to understand, no, this is real.
9
SPEAKER_00
They re so attached to the lie that it s no longer a lie for them.
9
SPEAKER_01
Well, they re having confirmation bias, so they re excluding everything that would counteract their lie or story.
9
SPEAKER_01
You can call a story a lie or lie a story.
9
SPEAKER_01
And then they re seeing proof of it where it doesn t even exist sometimes.
9
SPEAKER_00
No, and they re only going to seek out people that... Confirm.
9
SPEAKER_00
And those who don t are the enemy and need to be eliminated at all costs.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
I don t like to be anywhere near that dynamic, which really was a problem for me.
9
SPEAKER_00
Here is my husband who s having feelings for another woman, and I really understood it.
9
SPEAKER_00
She is neurotypical.
9
SPEAKER_00
She s caring.
9
SPEAKER_00
She perceives his needs long before he does, but not in an oversteppy way.
9
SPEAKER_00
Just super nurturing.
9
SPEAKER_01
She is who she is.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I can tell that there s some part of him that s like, in another life, this would have been my wife.
9
SPEAKER_00
And by the way, in another life, it very well could have been, maybe should have been.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I wanted to talk about it and it was denial.
9
SPEAKER_00
Just no, no, no.
9
SPEAKER_00
And that was a problem because it s, okay, so let me get this straight.
9
SPEAKER_00
I have to be hyper aware.
9
SPEAKER_00
of everything that s going on with me.
9
SPEAKER_00
I have to be hyper-honest about it.
9
SPEAKER_00
I have to tell you when I m having destructive impulses.
9
SPEAKER_00
I have to deny those destructive impulses.
9
SPEAKER_00
I m spending all this time trying to figure it out.
9
SPEAKER_01
When you do something naughty, you have a little coin you put on his desk to say, like, I ve done something naughty.
9
SPEAKER_01
We can talk about it or not.
9
SPEAKER_01
He sometimes chooses to not.
9
SPEAKER_01
I think that s generous.
9
SPEAKER_01
Rarely does that.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, he rarely does that.
9
SPEAKER_00
You re being kind in the arts now.
9
SPEAKER_00
He wants to know.
9
SPEAKER_00
He always wants to know, but that s the thing.
9
SPEAKER_00
He wants to know every little thing.
9
SPEAKER_00
So that is my requirement.
9
SPEAKER_00
And this is the softball of softballs.
9
SPEAKER_00
You re obviously having feelings about this woman.
9
SPEAKER_00
We can talk about it.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s okay.
9
SPEAKER_00
And just, nope.
9
SPEAKER_00
And that was really tough because, so what am I supposed to do now?
9
SPEAKER_00
Pretend I don t notice this?
9
SPEAKER_00
I m not upset by it.
9
SPEAKER_00
This is his stuff.
9
SPEAKER_00
He is an Italian Catholic and he was raised, as many people were raised to believe, that marriage is a sacred institution and if you find yourself so much as half glancing at another attractive person, something s wrong.
9
SPEAKER_02
Talk about guilt, he s obviously riddled with guilt, something you aren t feeling, so it s confusing.
9
SPEAKER_00
His guilt is keeping him from talking about it with me, and he s not aware of that either.
9
SPEAKER_00
Whereas I m someone that s, if you find someone attractive, let s talk about it, let s have that conversation, because we re all human beings.
9
SPEAKER_00
And my understanding is that animals that naturally mate for life are never tempted to go like,
9
SPEAKER_01
They re not fighting it all day long.
9
SPEAKER_00
Right.
9
SPEAKER_00
The American cranes, they mate for life.
9
SPEAKER_00
I don t see those cranes like sneaking out and then coming.
9
SPEAKER_00
So what that tells me is human beings have to choose monogamy.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s not something that comes easily.
9
SPEAKER_00
You have to work at it.
9
SPEAKER_01
Here we go.
9
SPEAKER_01
I get to say it.
9
SPEAKER_01
As an anthropology major, our history is dominated by not monogamy.
9
SPEAKER_01
So yeah, it s a choice.
9
SPEAKER_01
Esther Perel says it best.
9
SPEAKER_01
Monogamy is something basically everyone wants it and everyone s betraying it.
9
SPEAKER_01
She says it very eloquently.
9
SPEAKER_00
I think betrayed is spot on though.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I think it s eloquent too.
9
SPEAKER_00
I just wish that more people would acknowledge that.
9
SPEAKER_01
Oh, universally reviled and universally practiced cheating.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
The concept of love comes up so much with sociopathy.
9
SPEAKER_00
And when I ve asked how I experience it, I equate it to homeostasis, something that s mutual beneficial to both parties.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s not ownership.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s not possession.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s not ego driven.
9
SPEAKER_00
There s no power dynamic in it.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I feel as soon as power comes into play, it s not love anymore.
9
SPEAKER_00
Now it s dominance.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I feel that jealousy and possessiveness stems from that because what it boils down to is if my wife is looking at another man, then she s going to give her attention to that other man.
9
SPEAKER_00
The attention that she s giving to me will be taken away.
9
SPEAKER_00
So what that says is I need her attention.
9
SPEAKER_00
You need that attention to fill some void in yourself.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s no longer about me at all.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s about what you need from me to feel better about yourself.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s that I feel less than if you find another man attractive.
9
SPEAKER_00
When in reality, it really has nothing to do with you.
9
SPEAKER_00
I like ravioli and I also like manicotti.
9
SPEAKER_00
Like these are two things that can coexist.
9
SPEAKER_00
Which is not to say it should be a free for all.
9
SPEAKER_00
If you make a commitment to somebody, you should stick to that commitment or you should let that person know, I m no longer interested in having this commitment.
9
SPEAKER_00
I believe that.
9
SPEAKER_00
But I also believe it s important to be honest about how you feel.
9
SPEAKER_00
If my husband finds someone attractive at a bar, I always say a bar and we rarely go, but like even on television,
9
SPEAKER_00
I encourage him to talk to me about it because I want him to feel like he can share that.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s okay.
9
SPEAKER_00
The priest isn t going to storm into the room.
9
SPEAKER_00
This isn t a test that you re going to fail.
9
SPEAKER_00
You re allowed to find other women attractive.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s okay.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I m also allowed to find other people attractive.
9
SPEAKER_00
That s usually met with.
9
SPEAKER_00
or not, but again, that s something else we can explore.
9
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so let me break this down.
9
SPEAKER_00
Why am I not allowed?
9
SPEAKER_00
Well, because then I will be marginalized.
9
SPEAKER_00
So it s not about me.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s about you.
9
SPEAKER_00
And it s just interesting.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I think if more people had these open conversations, relationships would thrive because as it stands right now, the second you start to develop feelings for someone, the marriage is over or I ve done something or he s done something when really it s just normal.
9
SPEAKER_01
Well, this has been a fucking party, Patrick.
9
SPEAKER_01
I ve really enjoyed it.
9
SPEAKER_01
Sociopath, a memoir.
9
SPEAKER_01
I think people are going to really gobble this up.
9
SPEAKER_01
I found myself like, fuck, am I interested in this?
9
SPEAKER_01
It s like such a privileged bit of access.
9
SPEAKER_00
Thanks for sharing.
9
SPEAKER_00
I m so glad I wrote it as much for sociopathic individuals as I did neurotypical because it s just as important for neurotypical to understand this as it is for neurodivergent people to understand it because we have to coexist.
9
SPEAKER_01
More and more we re learning like, by God, this fallacy of norm.
9
SPEAKER_01
Neurotypical, it s not even a thing.
9
SPEAKER_01
20% we found out in the last thing is neurotypical.
9
SPEAKER_01
Then you add in this five or whatever.
9
SPEAKER_02
It s just all made up.
9
SPEAKER_02
It s like we re all very unique.
9
SPEAKER_01
A lucky handful of us get to be quote normal.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, whatever that means.
9
SPEAKER_01
I m still not even sure who s normal, who robs normal.
9
SPEAKER_01
Doesn t seem to be an alcoholic.
9
SPEAKER_01
We ll find out.
9
SPEAKER_01
Patrick, thank you so much for coming in and talking about this.
9
SPEAKER_01
It was so interesting.
9
SPEAKER_00
Thanks guys, I really loved it.
9
SPEAKER_01
Stay tuned for the fact check so you can hear all the facts that were wrong.
9
SPEAKER_01
Three, two, one, and action on recording, everyone.
9
SPEAKER_01
This one s for real, action on recording.
9
SPEAKER_03
Oh, I m nervous.
9
SPEAKER_01
About action on recording?
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
Oh no.
9
SPEAKER_03
I m scared.
9
SPEAKER_03
It s gloomy out.
9
SPEAKER_01
It flipped on a dime.
9
SPEAKER_03
It s been so sunny and nice.
9
SPEAKER_01
It was 80 for like three days in a row, even maybe 82 or three.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yesterday when I hiked, it felt like it was 90 out, because the sun was out so bright, and I was sweaty, wearing my rucksack, which makes my back sweat even more, because there s contact.
9
SPEAKER_03
Oh, you re wearing a backpack?
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, do you know what a rucksack is?
9
SPEAKER_03
I thought a rucksack was like that stick with a bag on it.
9
SPEAKER_01
Oh, like a hobo carries?
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
Oh.
9
SPEAKER_01
By the way, do those only exist in cartoons or do you think people ever really had it?
9
SPEAKER_01
It s like a handkerchief tied to a stick to carry all your stuff.
9
SPEAKER_03
I bet at some point it was real because it was a way to carry.
9
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_03
They re smart.
9
SPEAKER_01
And remember what hobo stands for.
9
SPEAKER_01
Do you remember?
9
SPEAKER_03
Oh my gosh, I forget.
9
SPEAKER_01
Homeward bound.
9
SPEAKER_01
Oh yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
It was like people riding the rails coming home from war.
9
SPEAKER_03
Yes, I forgot that.
9
SPEAKER_01
Which is kind of a nice.
9
SPEAKER_03
It is nice.
9
SPEAKER_01
Like it got so negative, hobo.
9
SPEAKER_01
But a rucksack is a backpack that you put weight in.
9
SPEAKER_03
Oh.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
So it has a plate inside the backpack, like a 40 pound plate.
9
SPEAKER_03
Oh my God.
9
SPEAKER_01
So that I m heavier when I hike.
9
SPEAKER_03
Wow.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_03
Oh my God, it s getting really extreme.
9
SPEAKER_01
It really is, and it s kind of interesting.
9
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, you feel it?
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, because I did six miles, ding, ding, ding, the dip from all the travels.
9
SPEAKER_01
I m just like fighting to get to homeostasis.
9
SPEAKER_01
I feel like that s like my...
9
SPEAKER_03
Uh-huh, yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
But Monday I hiked six miles up to the very top and then lifted the next day.
9
SPEAKER_01
Then next day, rucksack four loops of the rock path, which is a thing, and now four is my record.
9
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and I m pretty physically exhausted all day long.
9
SPEAKER_03
Right.
9
SPEAKER_01
And then I was lifting this morning and I was sore.
9
SPEAKER_03
Sure.
9
SPEAKER_01
And then I was like, is there a specific day you feel your age?
9
SPEAKER_01
Like, well, that s you ve peaked.
9
SPEAKER_01
You re going to have to lay off from here.
9
SPEAKER_01
I don t think I m there, but across my mind.
9
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
Like when?
9
SPEAKER_03
When is enough enough?
9
SPEAKER_01
Well, not that, just, and I m sure
10
SPEAKER_01
it s different for everybody, but obviously at 75 years old, I m not gonna be able to squat as much as I can right now.
10
SPEAKER_01
And then when is that moment where you go, oh, from here on out, I m gonna actually be doing less weight.
10
SPEAKER_01
And this week, I a little bit felt like, oh, I think I might ve topped out what I m capable of.
10
SPEAKER_01
But I like it.
10
SPEAKER_00
It s good.
10
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s very distracting.
10
SPEAKER_01
And then you re in a gentle coma afterwards.
10
SPEAKER_01
You ve yet to really experiment with this.
10
SPEAKER_00
Not that way, no, no.
10
SPEAKER_01
Well, I guess back in SoulCycle days.
10
SPEAKER_00
SoulCycle days, but I was never, I was never one to do like doubles.
10
SPEAKER_00
People would do doubles.
10
SPEAKER_01
Like two different sessions a day.
10
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, or back to back.
10
SPEAKER_01
Oh, back to back.
10
SPEAKER_00
That was never for me.
10
SPEAKER_01
Right.
10
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I would, within the workout, increase the weight or make the resistance
10
SPEAKER_01
And you would be like, oh my God, I don t think I can handle more or keep this up.
10
SPEAKER_00
Yes, and running has that element to it.
10
SPEAKER_01
It sure does.
10
SPEAKER_01
When s the last time you jogged?
10
SPEAKER_00
I haven t jogged in a minute.
10
SPEAKER_01
It s usually a Christmas activity for you.
10
SPEAKER_00
I ve been on my walk.
10
SPEAKER_00
I ve just mainly been walking.
10
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
10
SPEAKER_00
It does hurt more now.
10
SPEAKER_01
Running?
10
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_00
So I think that s an age thing.
10
SPEAKER_01
Does it hurt in your knees?
10
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, shins.
10
SPEAKER_01
Low back?
10
SPEAKER_00
Sometimes low back.
10
SPEAKER_01
Low back, shins.
10
SPEAKER_01
Shins, though, is temporary.
10
SPEAKER_00
Well, I used to get really bad shin splints.
10
SPEAKER_01
But when you get them like when you very first started resuming an exercise and then after a week you would never get them again?
10
SPEAKER_01
No.
10
SPEAKER_01
Oh, because that was always my experience with running.
10
SPEAKER_01
Like if I hadn t jogged in a while and then I went jogging, I would have shin splints, but then that was it.
10
SPEAKER_01
It was just that initial dropping back in.
10
SPEAKER_00
I m just walking for now.
10
SPEAKER_00
Stick with my walking for now.
10
SPEAKER_00
It s not like it doesn t ever cross my mind, but it s never like I wanna push myself.
10
SPEAKER_00
It s maybe I should go, I should probably mix it up.
10
SPEAKER_00
Maybe I should go on a hike or do Pilates or something.
10
SPEAKER_00
But the goal isn t to push myself.
10
SPEAKER_00
It s to increase the amount and diversity.
10
SPEAKER_01
Well, I think you have a very healthy relationship with it.
10
SPEAKER_01
It s just like keep moving.
10
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, always move.
10
SPEAKER_00
Find a way to move.
10
SPEAKER_01
And I think that s very sustainable and probably very healthy.
10
SPEAKER_00
I hope so.
10
SPEAKER_01
But I have the mindset where it s like, it s probably like original sin.
10
SPEAKER_01
It s like atonement.
10
SPEAKER_01
I have to atone daily to earn any joy.
10
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_01
I think it s like a baseline thought of mine.
10
SPEAKER_01
In fact, I was talking to my therapist this week.
10
SPEAKER_01
He was asking if I ever, ever think about drinking.
10
SPEAKER_01
And I said, I don t ever think about drinking.
10
SPEAKER_01
And I said, because it s so cemented in my head, it s like, I drink, then I will buy Coke, then I will be gone for three days.
10
SPEAKER_01
So it doesn t sound good at all to be gone for three days.
10
SPEAKER_00
Right.
10
SPEAKER_01
And then it kind of got into why that was my drug of choice, drinking.
10
SPEAKER_01
And I was saying, what drinking did for me, and I can very clearly remember it, is three beers in, when I d start feeling a buzz,
10
SPEAKER_01
The weight of you have to succeed, and you have to be productive, and you have to accomplish, and you have to, that s the only time that ever came off my shoulders.
10
SPEAKER_01
And it was like, oh, fuck, this feels nice to not be fucking worried about what I m accomplishing or doing or bettering.
10
SPEAKER_01
And that was the real joy of, if I had to isolate its singular appeal to me, it s that sensation.
10
SPEAKER_01
When you get buzzed, what do you think dissipates?
10
SPEAKER_00
It depends on if I m healthy mentally, it really is just like added fun.
10
SPEAKER_00
It really can be that for me.
10
SPEAKER_00
Sure.
10
SPEAKER_00
Or it s just we re loose and it s fun.
10
SPEAKER_00
We re good.
10
SPEAKER_00
Chatty.
10
SPEAKER_00
We re goosey.
10
SPEAKER_01
We re gander.
10
SPEAKER_01
We re goosey gander.
10
SPEAKER_00
four hours goes by, we ve been chatting.
10
SPEAKER_00
That s best case, right?
10
SPEAKER_00
Like that was summer of car.
10
SPEAKER_01
Hold on, there might be a clue right there.
10
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
10
SPEAKER_01
So the notion that four hours goes by, because you say this a lot, you say like time travels differently, it s a big part of it.
10
SPEAKER_01
So I m wondering if this passage of time, which happens effortlessly, it makes me think maybe that your relief is anxiety.
10
SPEAKER_00
Oh, for sure, for sure.
10
SPEAKER_01
Like you feel a sense of like, Oh, I don t, I don t have to be thinking about all the variables and what I m supposed to be planning for.
10
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_00
I think it does mute anxiety.
10
SPEAKER_00
Well, the flip side of that is I like that if I have to work that
10
SPEAKER_01
It speeds that up.
10
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_00
Like if I m editing and I have a glass of wine that feels like much more tolerable.
10
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
10
SPEAKER_00
And it does.
10
SPEAKER_01
Well, drinking on the job in general does help it.
10
SPEAKER_01
I think this is why I like guys throwing hammers, have some beers and I used to drink when I roofed and I was like, oh yeah, this is totally tolerable with a little buzz.
10
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I think there s something else with editing.
10
SPEAKER_00
It s, it was kind of like, you know, you re, you re writing aphorism about homework.
10
SPEAKER_00
It s that, I mean, there s like, there s always.
10
SPEAKER_01
Yep.
10
SPEAKER_01
By the way, I don t know what the word aphorism means.
10
SPEAKER_01
I m pretty impressed that you just dropped that in the sentence.
10
SPEAKER_00
No, I could be wrong.
10
SPEAKER_01
Let me affirm that aphorism is right.
10
SPEAKER_00
A pithy observation that contains a general truth.
10
SPEAKER_01
Oh, I gotta work that in, aphorism.
10
SPEAKER_00
Try it today.
10
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
10
SPEAKER_00
Anyway, sometimes the idea of that, of just like, oh my God, this is- Endless.
10
SPEAKER_00
This is literally endless.
10
SPEAKER_00
I could slash should be doing this at all times.
10
SPEAKER_00
is very daunting and overwhelming.
10
SPEAKER_00
And so the drink makes that less so.
10
SPEAKER_00
But I know that s bad.
10
SPEAKER_00
I know I m using it to just get through my life.
10
SPEAKER_01
Well, your job.
10
SPEAKER_00
I know, but.
10
SPEAKER_00
A job that is my life, and this job gives a lot, right?
10
SPEAKER_00
But it s time-consuming.
10
SPEAKER_01
Right.
10
SPEAKER_00
So I m aware that that s not so healthy, that piece of it.
10
SPEAKER_00
But then the social element, I think is fine.
10
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think it s all fine.
10
SPEAKER_01
I was just curious if you had to articulate what the sensation was.
10
SPEAKER_01
If you thought of it instead of a new sensation being given to you and more another sensation disappearing.
10
SPEAKER_01
I think it s an interesting framework to think about what it is.
10
SPEAKER_01
I always just thought about it.
10
SPEAKER_01
is it gave me a buzz, right?
10
SPEAKER_01
It gave me this physical feeling.
10
SPEAKER_01
But I do think in retrospect, really, it took away something that was very pleasant to have.
10
SPEAKER_00
Well, I think that s the unhealthy part, right?
10
SPEAKER_00
Again, same with the work.
10
SPEAKER_00
It takes away the overwhelm.
10
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
10
SPEAKER_00
It makes it manageable.
10
SPEAKER_01
Well, good, that s another part I love about drinking, is it makes me optimistic.
10
SPEAKER_01
So like, there s a pessimism about the daunting endlessness of the editing, and then once a little buzz, you can kind of be optimistic about it.
10
SPEAKER_01
It s like, yeah, and then I do it, and then it s over, and then I always get through it, and whatever.
10
SPEAKER_01
I always will.
10
SPEAKER_00
But when it s healthier, when I m social, and it s just like fun in its summer of Cara, that is, it s giving me something.
10
SPEAKER_00
So it s both, I guess.
10
SPEAKER_01
So the time thing, I get the time thing when we re recording, which I find to be very pleasant.
10
SPEAKER_01
Like time is in a different, it s like enters a different structure.
10
SPEAKER_00
You re escaping it kind of.
10
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, or the many, many times I look, because I m sure we ve gone 45 minutes and we ve gone an hour and 50 minutes, like that is very pleasant.
10
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_01
We just had a guest, we had a guest this week who looked down and he was like, what?
10
SPEAKER_01
Like it really shook him.
10
SPEAKER_01
He was mad.
10
SPEAKER_01
Well, he has his own show.
10
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_01
And he says he s super conscious of time when he s recording his show.
10
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_01
And he always feels like they can barely get to an hour.
10
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
10
SPEAKER_01
And then he looked down and we had been talking for an hour and 45 minutes.
10
SPEAKER_01
He s like, wow, that was, but I think that s very pleasurable.
10
SPEAKER_00
It is, it is.
10
SPEAKER_00
I think so too.
10
SPEAKER_01
Speaking of which, I m going to lose sense of time on Monday.
10
SPEAKER_01
I m looking very forward to it.
10
SPEAKER_01
Because I m going to be riding Coda for the first time.
10
SPEAKER_00
Tell me about that.
10
SPEAKER_01
Tell me about your Coda.
10
SPEAKER_00
I don t think most people know about that.
10
SPEAKER_01
Well, Coda is Circuit of the Americas in Austin, Texas.
10
SPEAKER_01
It s where they have the Formula One race.
10
SPEAKER_01
I ve been to the track now six times as a spectator.
10
SPEAKER_01
It s a gorgeous track.
10
SPEAKER_01
And I m going for the MotoGP race on Sunday, but then on Monday, I m gonna do a track day there, which I m so excited about.
10
SPEAKER_00
So you re gonna ride motorcycles Monday.
10
SPEAKER_01
Ride motorcycles Monday.
10
SPEAKER_01
And time on that day will be very abstract.
10
SPEAKER_01
But I m really pumped because I ve just been watching the track on TV and in life for so long to get to ride it.
10
SPEAKER_01
That straightaway is nuts.
10
SPEAKER_01
up hill.
10
SPEAKER_01
It s gonna be fun and it s gonna be very weird.
11
SPEAKER_00
is you ll be going apex speed on the straightaway, and then as you re approaching turn one, which is a super insane tight, it s more than 90 degrees, you re gonna wanna get on the brakes because it s approaching, but you re going uphill.
11
SPEAKER_00
So you can wait much later, because it s uphill.
11
SPEAKER_00
And that s gonna be a whole thing to figure out.
11
SPEAKER_00
And it s Steve s 50th birthday party weekend.
11
SPEAKER_02
Oh!
11
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
11
SPEAKER_02
That is fun.
11
SPEAKER_02
Are you gonna be careful?
11
SPEAKER_00
Yes, of course.
11
SPEAKER_00
Mostly because I have a whole week in Austin.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and you want to enjoy it.
11
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
11
SPEAKER_00
I want to go to Barton Springs every day.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
11
SPEAKER_02
I can t say I m not anxious, but I am excited for you.
11
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
11
SPEAKER_00
I m very excited for me.
11
SPEAKER_02
Are there other friends going besides Steve?
11
SPEAKER_00
It did cross my mind, like, I wonder if Nicholas Holt will be there.
11
SPEAKER_00
If you re an actor and you ride, so I think I might see other actors.
11
SPEAKER_00
That s fun.
11
SPEAKER_00
Which would be fun.
11
SPEAKER_00
And there probably will be some pros, because the race will have been the day before.
11
SPEAKER_00
So maybe even the Prelia team riders will be there.
11
SPEAKER_02
Fun.
11
SPEAKER_00
Very exciting.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, so that s what alcohol did.
11
SPEAKER_00
Mm-hmm.
11
SPEAKER_02
What did pills do?
11
SPEAKER_00
Well, pills are so stupid.
11
SPEAKER_00
That s why it s really shocking I got addicted to them.
11
SPEAKER_02
Well, it s not shocking.
11
SPEAKER_02
It s a literal epidemic.
11
SPEAKER_00
I know.
11
SPEAKER_00
But like, when I just compare the results of either alcohol and cocaine to opiates or Xanax, so many people are addicted to benzos and it s like,
11
SPEAKER_00
For my money, it s such an unpleasant, it s not like a super pleasant experience.
11
SPEAKER_00
But I guess it s personality type.
11
SPEAKER_00
I m sure for some people, benzos give them what alcohol gave me.
11
SPEAKER_00
And then opiates feel good when they first come on.
11
SPEAKER_00
And then they generally just don t work beyond that.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_00
Um, I guess alcohol is a little similar in that, like that, that buzz is one thing.
11
SPEAKER_00
And then the inebriation is a different thing.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_02
I mean, it s just also chemically is just so addictive.
11
SPEAKER_02
That must just be it.
11
SPEAKER_00
I think the unique thing about opioids is your body adapts so quickly to it.
11
SPEAKER_00
That s the crazy, weird trap of them.
11
SPEAKER_00
You know, if you did two Vicodin every day for a week, next week, you wouldn t feel it.
11
SPEAKER_00
Whereas your alcohol tolerance does not change like that.
11
SPEAKER_00
I ll tell you the appeal of the opiates is kind of like wearing noise canceling headphones.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_02
You can just escape.
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_00
It s just like you re present, but also at any moment you don t have to hear all this stuff that s going on.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_00
You can kind of like be in one place in your mind, even though you re going through the motions outwardly, but you can, you re kind of noise canceling headphones.
11
SPEAKER_00
And then there s some body sensation when it first works.
11
SPEAKER_02
It s all pretty sad.
11
SPEAKER_02
Like all of it, the drinking, everything.
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_02
It means- We just can t be in our present life.
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it s not good.
11
SPEAKER_02
I foresee a time, maybe, I don t know, where I m not engaging in any substances.
11
SPEAKER_02
I don t know when that will be, but I do think- Definitely not in New York.
11
SPEAKER_02
It s not.
11
SPEAKER_00
It s not the place.
11
SPEAKER_02
No, it s not.
11
SPEAKER_02
It s not that soon, I don t think.
11
SPEAKER_02
Right.
11
SPEAKER_02
I think I have enough evidence that it s not something I should do forever.
11
SPEAKER_02
It s not that good for me.
11
SPEAKER_00
I will say this, you will experience, so I had quit many times for 30 days, like you ve done that before.
11
SPEAKER_00
Quitting for 30 days is much harder than quitting for good because you don t at all ruminate and fantasize about when it s over because it s not over.
11
SPEAKER_00
And so you just really, like, again, I don t think about drinking, it s just not, it s never happening.
11
SPEAKER_00
So it s not like, oh, in a month I get to do it, or in two months, or this summer I get to do it on this trip.
11
SPEAKER_00
I don t get to do it.
11
SPEAKER_00
And it kind of shuts that off finally, where you don t even consider it.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I know, I think I just have, I think I m going to get to a point, I ve dipped in and out of this sort of recently.
11
SPEAKER_02
There have been times where I am drinking and I don t know why, like I don t want it, but I m doing it.
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
11
SPEAKER_02
And so that part is.
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and you re a little drunk and you re like,
11
SPEAKER_02
I m just like, what am I doing?
11
SPEAKER_02
Why am I doing this?
11
SPEAKER_02
I woke up this morning, I knew I didn t want to do this, and here I am doing it.
11
SPEAKER_00
Don t you think it s that, yeah, it s that feeling of like, here I am again.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I hate that feeling, here I am again.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_02
So I think I just, and like I said, I think it s starting to happen where I don t want it anymore.
11
SPEAKER_00
Right.
11
SPEAKER_02
And so I feel like once that happens, then I ll probably be like, it s okay, I think it s time to not do this anymore.
11
SPEAKER_00
It s time for a new experiment.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_02
But then I think about my house and garden martinis.
11
SPEAKER_00
Oh, yeah.
11
SPEAKER_00
Poolside stuff.
11
SPEAKER_02
Exactly.
11
SPEAKER_02
That sounds so fun.
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it will be.
11
SPEAKER_02
Maybe when I m 40.
11
SPEAKER_00
You ll quit at 40?
11
SPEAKER_02
Maybe.
11
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
11
SPEAKER_02
I don t know.
11
SPEAKER_02
I don t want to say any of that.
11
SPEAKER_02
I don t know.
11
SPEAKER_02
I think I sound really alcoholic-y right now.
11
SPEAKER_02
You do?
11
SPEAKER_02
I think I sound like that right now.
11
SPEAKER_00
No, I m asking you do think that
11
SPEAKER_02
I think I sound like that right now, yeah.
11
SPEAKER_02
I don t think I am one, but I think that s how this conversation sounds.
11
SPEAKER_02
I m aware of that, but I m still choosing to say it because I think it s just the truth.
11
SPEAKER_02
It s just my truth.
11
SPEAKER_00
Do you talk to other friends about that?
11
SPEAKER_00
See, I have no frame of reference.
11
SPEAKER_00
I don t know how to evaluate what people, what they think about people who drink casually.
11
SPEAKER_00
I m almost curious, does everyone who drinks,
11
SPEAKER_00
think should I question this?
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I don t, I don t.
11
SPEAKER_00
Well, certainly I think for people who it s like a couple of times a month or at a dinner with friends and they drink clearly they don t ever think about it.
11
SPEAKER_00
Right.
11
SPEAKER_00
Other than they might go like, oh, I kind of don t feel good the day after I drank.
11
SPEAKER_02
Right.
11
SPEAKER_00
But I don t have any experience, really, with anyone who s clearly not an addict, yet drinks more than they want to.
11
SPEAKER_00
It s interesting.
11
SPEAKER_02
I just wonder, is everyone, I mean, there s obviously a spectrum, but I think everyone, maybe not everyone, I think most people have the capacity.
11
SPEAKER_00
I think there s a lot of people that are really non-addictive people.
11
SPEAKER_02
To anything, though?
11
SPEAKER_02
I feel like most people have something.
11
SPEAKER_00
that they soothe with.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, probably.
11
SPEAKER_02
I think so.
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_00
I have seen non-addictive people who also are very into their phone.
11
SPEAKER_00
It s really weird I m not more into my phone, to be honest.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_00
That s good.
11
SPEAKER_00
Too busy hiking.
11
SPEAKER_02
Rucksacking.
11
SPEAKER_00
Too busy lifting and moderating my protein intake.
11
SPEAKER_00
Had a very fun breakfast with Nate this morning.
11
SPEAKER_02
Oh, that s so nice.
11
SPEAKER_02
Where d you guys go?
11
SPEAKER_00
It s so stupid that we already know this.
11
SPEAKER_00
We ve been told by so many experts.
11
SPEAKER_02
About male friendship.
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, men should go hang with men once in a while and talk.
11
SPEAKER_00
And even though I know that, because we are so social with a very mixed group.
11
SPEAKER_00
So I see men all the time.
11
SPEAKER_00
But the one-on-one is pretty powerful.
11
SPEAKER_00
Especially with Nate, you know, because we ve been friends for 30 years now.
11
SPEAKER_00
And yeah, we have so much fun at these fucking breakfasts.
11
SPEAKER_00
I can t believe we re just laughing hysterically.
11
SPEAKER_00
We re whispering a lot to each other and our faces are really, like, I imagine what it looks like watching Nate and I have breakfast.
11
SPEAKER_00
It must look insane.
11
SPEAKER_00
So we get really close and we re like whispering something and we don t want anyone in the restaurant to hear.
11
SPEAKER_00
And then we re laughing so hard we can t pull it together.
11
SPEAKER_02
Where d you guys go?
11
SPEAKER_00
Cafe 101.
11
SPEAKER_02
Oh, fun.
11
SPEAKER_00
In fact, there was an armchair in there who s recently moved to LA and she said she had come there because she heard us talking about it.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yes, that happened to me the other day at Cara.
11
SPEAKER_00
I did.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it s really fun.
11
SPEAKER_00
It is.
11
SPEAKER_00
What s nice is we can stand by our recommendations.
11
SPEAKER_00
You know, people like these places.
11
SPEAKER_02
Exactly.
11
SPEAKER_00
These are good racks.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, they re good racks.
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_02
That s so fun, I m glad you do it.
11
SPEAKER_02
I m glad you make time for that.
11
SPEAKER_02
I think it s important.
11
SPEAKER_02
That s a ding, ding, ding, friendship, social connection.
11
SPEAKER_00
Who s this?
11
SPEAKER_02
This is for Patrick.
11
SPEAKER_00
Oh.
11
SPEAKER_02
Also, her name s Patricia, but she goes by Patrick.
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_00
Once again, I have not stopped talking about that interview since it happened.
11
SPEAKER_00
And of course, and she was right to say, like, we re as interested in you as you re as interested in us.
11
SPEAKER_00
We re so interested.
11
SPEAKER_00
I don t think I ve ever talked to people about a guest we had where they wanted to hear every single thing.
11
SPEAKER_02
Of course.
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_00
Oh, Jennifer.
11
SPEAKER_02
Oh my God, I almost choked on my smint.
11
SPEAKER_00
My smint.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yes, it s so interesting to us, but what I also know, because everyone who I ve told, at some point in the conversation, they say, and I said it in this, and you said it, am I a sociopath?
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, right, right, right, right.
11
SPEAKER_02
Everyone s so worried that they themselves are, which I think is hilarious.
13
SPEAKER_00
I m on a treadmill.
13
SPEAKER_00
Then I saw this snarling beast guy, and I noticed he had a tissue in his hand.
13
SPEAKER_00
I realized, you know, he s not snarling.
13
SPEAKER_00
He s sneezing.
13
SPEAKER_00
You know, ain t no real threat there.
13
SPEAKER_00
And I saw a little Tiffany.
13
SPEAKER_00
I m thinking, you know, eight-year-old white girl, middle of the ghetto, bunch of monsters, this time of night with quantum physics books.
13
SPEAKER_00
She about to start some shit, say it?
13
SPEAKER_00
She s about eight years old.
13
SPEAKER_00
Those books are way too advanced for her.
13
SPEAKER_00
If you ask me, I d say she s up to something.
13
SPEAKER_00
And to be honest, I d appreciate it if you eased up off my back about it.
13
SPEAKER_00
Or do I owe her an apology?
13
SPEAKER_01
You know what s funny?
13
SPEAKER_01
What I think s happening there, his voice is way higher.
13
SPEAKER_01
I think, because there is an algorithm that can comb YouTube to make sure no copyrighted material s on there.
13
SPEAKER_01
So there s like a mathematical code to all the sound, and then it can comb through massive amounts.
13
SPEAKER_01
Like if you, Beatles song.
13
SPEAKER_01
And that s how they enforce copyright.
13
SPEAKER_01
And I think this person sped it up a little so it doesn t get flagged.
13
SPEAKER_01
Really?
13
SPEAKER_01
Because that was higher than how he talks and it was a little faster than that scene really is.
13
SPEAKER_02
That s interesting.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that s my hunch.
13
SPEAKER_02
Okay, she talked about inherent emotions versus social emotions.
13
SPEAKER_02
The four primal emotions are happiness, sadness, fear, and anger.
13
SPEAKER_02
And then social emotions are emotions that depend upon the thoughts, feelings, or actions of other people as experienced, anticipated, or imagined at firsthand.
13
SPEAKER_02
Examples are embarrassment, guilt, shame, jealousy, envy, elevation, empathy, and pride.
13
SPEAKER_02
In contrast, basic emotions, happiness, sadness, only require the awareness of one s own physical state.
13
SPEAKER_02
Interesting.
13
SPEAKER_01
Very interesting.
13
SPEAKER_01
Oh, the other thing that came up in Charlie s when he and I were talking about it is we also happen to be talking to a very smart human who has a PhD in clinical psychology.
13
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
13
SPEAKER_01
clearly there are sociopaths that are dum-dums.
13
SPEAKER_02
Of course.
13
SPEAKER_01
So it s like, I wonder how those people who have to outsmart and put on the mask and anticipate and be really on top of it, I wonder how that plays out.
13
SPEAKER_01
Or like, you know, they only have so much capacity to lie creatively and convincingly because they re just, they re also not very intelligent.
13
SPEAKER_01
Clearly there s gotta be sociopaths that are low intelligence.
13
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and also like different environments so that they don t access
13
SPEAKER_01
Yes, she was being very fair about.
13
SPEAKER_02
Her privilege.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
13
SPEAKER_01
But then you re trying to imagine, I was trying to imagine talking to a very stupid sociopath.
13
SPEAKER_01
And is that, then does that become more obvious?
13
SPEAKER_02
They just might not, they re probably not masking.
13
SPEAKER_01
Or maybe they re in, those are the ones that are in jail.
13
SPEAKER_01
I don t know.
13
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, true.
13
SPEAKER_01
I just got really curious about the relationship between intelligence and that.
13
SPEAKER_01
and how it would be affected.
13
SPEAKER_02
She definitely may also, it was clear, this is such a spectrum.
13
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, big time.
13
SPEAKER_02
She, it seems, has mild to moderate.
13
SPEAKER_01
But on this topic, going into this interview, I m like, oh, I will know.
13
SPEAKER_01
Even if I ignore that I know, I will be able to detect, and I don t think I would have detected.
13
SPEAKER_02
That she was one, yeah.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I left going, no, you actually don t have that skills.
13
SPEAKER_01
Now maybe the fibs I would catch, but just the overall, I would chalk it up to something else.
13
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, like the fact that she s a stalker, like that s fascinating.
13
SPEAKER_02
But it doesn t sound like she likes stalking people she knows necessarily.
13
SPEAKER_02
It s like, it s a voyeuristic escape.
13
SPEAKER_01
Interesting.
13
SPEAKER_02
So interesting.
13
SPEAKER_02
Okay, I looked up why psychopaths like animals.
13
SPEAKER_02
She said they often do.
13
SPEAKER_01
Sociopaths.
13
SPEAKER_02
Well, she said psychopaths do too.
13
SPEAKER_01
In her book, it talks about sociopaths.
13
SPEAKER_01
Oh, okay.
13
SPEAKER_02
Well, she did say, and it does say here, psychopaths gravitate towards dogs since they are obedient and easy to manipulate.
13
SPEAKER_02
They often get upset when their dogs die because dogs offer unconditional love.
13
SPEAKER_02
That doesn t really make sense.
13
SPEAKER_01
Type in why sociopaths like animals.
13
SPEAKER_02
These are all like Reddit.
13
SPEAKER_02
Oh.
13
SPEAKER_02
Sociopaths and animals, part one, sociopathworld.com.
13
SPEAKER_01
Oh, wow, there s a sociopathworld.com.
13
SPEAKER_02
Which are weird.
13
SPEAKER_02
I can t, there s no.
13
SPEAKER_01
She had no good answer and she has a PhD in this.
13
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, true.
13
SPEAKER_02
Okay, animals who mate for life.
13
SPEAKER_02
Here s seven of them.
13
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
13
SPEAKER_02
Wolves.
13
SPEAKER_01
Ooh.
13
SPEAKER_02
This says wolves, power couples.
13
SPEAKER_02
In a gray wolf pack, it s usually only the male and female alpha who are allowed to breed.
13
SPEAKER_02
The pair mate for life as a way to cement their position as pack leaders.
13
SPEAKER_02
Beavers, sharing is caring.
13
SPEAKER_01
Oh, of course beavers are monogamous.
13
SPEAKER_02
This monogamy is more about practicality than romance in beavers.
13
SPEAKER_02
Oh, this is more like arranged marriage.
13
SPEAKER_02
Oh, these are Eurasian beavers, specifically.
13
SPEAKER_01
Uranus beavers.
13
SPEAKER_02
They team up for life as a way to increase their chances of survival.
13
SPEAKER_02
I mean, that s like humans.
13
SPEAKER_02
Okay, gibbons.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, gibbons are among the apes.
13
SPEAKER_02
California mice.
13
SPEAKER_01
Oh, we wouldn t expect that in California.
13
SPEAKER_02
No.
13
SPEAKER_01
Not as progressive as we thought, California.
13
SPEAKER_02
Shingleback lizards.
13
SPEAKER_01
Oh, shingleback is a bad term.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
13
SPEAKER_01
Because it makes me think of shingles.
13
SPEAKER_02
Well, wait till you hear this one.
13
SPEAKER_02
Diplozoon paradoxum.
13
SPEAKER_01
Okay, is that a plant protein?
13
SPEAKER_02
It s a parasitic plant worm.
13
SPEAKER_01
A parasitic flatworm, and it has a mate?
13
SPEAKER_02
It lives in the gills of a type of fish.
13
SPEAKER_02
That s disgusting, let s see.
13
SPEAKER_02
It must conjoin with another specimen or it cannot reach adulthood.
13
SPEAKER_01
Oh, well that s, that doesn t sound like the same thing.
13
SPEAKER_02
Black vultures.
13
SPEAKER_02
It says, unlike mammals, monogamy is the norm when it comes to birds.
13
SPEAKER_02
Take black vultures, for example.
13
SPEAKER_02
I don t know if I trust this.
13
SPEAKER_02
I m gonna go to a different web.
13
SPEAKER_01
No, it s BBC.
13
SPEAKER_01
Oh, monogamy.com?
13
SPEAKER_02
bbcearth.com.
13
SPEAKER_02
I thought, how come lobsters aren t on here?
13
SPEAKER_02
Don t lobsters mate for life?
13
SPEAKER_01
How could they?
13
SPEAKER_02
That s a whole thing on Friends.
13
SPEAKER_01
It is, but lobsters, do they hang together?
13
SPEAKER_01
Aren t they just kind of fucking floating all haphazardly around the floor?
13
SPEAKER_02
No, they have a very robust, romantic life.
13
SPEAKER_01
Oh, they do?
13
SPEAKER_02
Oh, wow.
13
SPEAKER_02
Okay, this is on Britannica.
13
SPEAKER_02
Six animals are made for life.
13
SPEAKER_02
Beavers, gray wolves, gibbons, macaroni penguins.
13
SPEAKER_02
Penguins, we know that about penguins.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, we knew that one.
13
SPEAKER_01
The boys are so nice, those penguins.
13
SPEAKER_01
They sit on the eggs.
13
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
13
SPEAKER_01
And they travel great distances to feed.
13
SPEAKER_02
Sandhill cranes.
13
SPEAKER_02
Bald eagles.
13
SPEAKER_01
Bald eagles?
13
SPEAKER_01
That s interesting, because I ve seen a lot of bald eagle nests, and I don t see two birds in the nests.
13
SPEAKER_02
Well, they re off on vacation.
13
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
13
SPEAKER_02
Romantic getaway.
13
SPEAKER_01
They re on business trip.
13
SPEAKER_02
One s there, and the other one.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
13
SPEAKER_01
Oh, you think the other one s cheating?
13
SPEAKER_01
The gibbons are together.
13
SPEAKER_01
They re inseparable.
13
SPEAKER_02
Oh.
13
SPEAKER_01
But I always see one bald eagle, presumably sitting on some chicks.
13
SPEAKER_01
I m going to look for it though.
13
SPEAKER_01
I always see bald Eagles when I go rafting in Wyoming.
13
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
13
SPEAKER_01
Lincoln.
13
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
13
SPEAKER_01
So I ve not been on high alert for a monogamous partner.
13
SPEAKER_02
Well, that s obviously, and as it should be, the female bald Eagle is looking after the babies and the male bald Eagle is working.
13
SPEAKER_01
Right.
13
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
13
SPEAKER_02
That s what we should all be replicating.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
13
SPEAKER_01
The man should go out and work and the mom should stay home with the chicks.
13
SPEAKER_02
With the babies.
13
SPEAKER_02
I mean, just because they re not together during the day doesn t mean they re not monogamous though for mating.
13
SPEAKER_01
Well, right.
13
SPEAKER_01
I guess then we get into it.
13
SPEAKER_01
They just only mate with each other.
13
SPEAKER_01
Is that the same?
13
SPEAKER_01
I think so.
13
SPEAKER_01
But like gibbons are a pair.
13
SPEAKER_01
They re together.
13
SPEAKER_01
Sounds like these beavers are too.
13
SPEAKER_01
Like they do everything together.
13
SPEAKER_01
Beaver.
13
SPEAKER_01
Ironic.
13
SPEAKER_02
I mean, it s also whatever we know, we know as people it s learned behavior.
13
SPEAKER_01
Can we go through quickly what are the least offensive and most offensive nicknames for a vagina?
13
SPEAKER_01
Sure.
13
SPEAKER_01
Because beaver is so silly.
13
SPEAKER_01
Could it really be?
13
SPEAKER_02
It s not offensive to me, but it s gross.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you wouldn t want your partner to- Call it that.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
13
SPEAKER_01
No.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
13
SPEAKER_02
No.
13
SPEAKER_02
Okay, yeah, so that one is- It s innocuous.
13
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
13
SPEAKER_02
What other ones do you wanna go through?
13
SPEAKER_01
Well, no, just that one, I guess, is all we have to tackle.
13
SPEAKER_02
It s person to person.
13
SPEAKER_01
It is, that s for sure.
13
SPEAKER_02
If some people say pussy, it s gross.
13
SPEAKER_01
Uh-huh.
13
SPEAKER_02
And if others, it s fine.
13
SPEAKER_01
Don t you feel bad for the people who, they re just gross when they say it?
13
SPEAKER_01
Isn t it weird that different people have different accents?
13
SPEAKER_02
They re doing it.
13
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
13
SPEAKER_02
The reason it s gross is because they re perverted.
13
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
13
SPEAKER_02
And it feels nasty when it comes out of their mouth because they re nasty.
13
SPEAKER_01
Right.
13
SPEAKER_02
But also vagina is boring.
13
SPEAKER_01
I had a friend of ours, dad, older man, he said, he always pronounced it pissy.
13
SPEAKER_01
God.
13
SPEAKER_01
And we were like, whoa, is he calling it pissy?
13
SPEAKER_02
Is he saying it right?
14
SPEAKER_00
I think so.
14
SPEAKER_01
Like I think that s how he pronounces pussy But oh, but I mean does he know it s pussy and that s like the way he says it or does he think it s spelled?
14
SPEAKER_00
Pi I think it s spelled.
14
SPEAKER_00
He s a smart man.
14
SPEAKER_00
Oh, yeah.
14
SPEAKER_00
Yes, but he does have a little bit of an affected accent And I just don t know if maybe when he was young that s what he and his friends did but he would always say like Yeah, say I ll close my eyes.
14
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
14
SPEAKER_00
What are you guys over here talking about pissy?
14
SPEAKER_00
Oh
14
SPEAKER_01
Oh, that s confusing too because piss is a part of it.
14
SPEAKER_00
It might be telling of what his kink is.
14
SPEAKER_00
I don t know, but what a way to pronounce it.
14
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
14
SPEAKER_00
Cause you re right.
14
SPEAKER_00
It s a, it s, it s not a great conversion rate guy saying pussy.
14
SPEAKER_00
It s, it can be really triggering.
14
SPEAKER_00
So it s, you re already in, you know, thin ice.
14
SPEAKER_00
And then if you now change it to pissy,
14
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, but I also don t want, I don t think it s sexy to call it a vagina.
14
SPEAKER_00
God, no.
14
SPEAKER_01
So then what is there?
14
SPEAKER_00
Thank you, that s what most men feel like.
14
SPEAKER_01
Well, I know, I mean.
14
SPEAKER_00
We re happy if you call our penises anything.
14
SPEAKER_01
Well, of course.
14
SPEAKER_00
I know.
14
SPEAKER_01
Because women aren t as nasty for the most part.
14
SPEAKER_00
Well, you guys are nasty.
14
SPEAKER_01
Well, we re nasty, but not.
14
SPEAKER_00
Publicly.
14
SPEAKER_01
Not in the way that men are, I m talking about pissy.
14
SPEAKER_00
Pissy.
14
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I don t like roast beef curtains, I ll tell you that.
14
SPEAKER_00
Sure, I understand that.
14
SPEAKER_01
That one s not for me.
14
SPEAKER_00
Right, no one really says that, though, okay?
14
SPEAKER_01
Should I look it up?
14
SPEAKER_00
Roast beef curtains?
14
SPEAKER_00
No, like.
14
SPEAKER_00
Pissy?
14
SPEAKER_01
No.
14
SPEAKER_00
We re losing a lot of people right now.
14
SPEAKER_00
There s so many words, and I m not gonna say them, because people, women will just hate me that I even know them, but I know all of them.
14
SPEAKER_01
You do?
14
SPEAKER_00
I know all of them.
14
SPEAKER_01
Can you just say some?
14
SPEAKER_01
I m allowing it.
14
SPEAKER_00
Pink taco.
14
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, no one likes that.
14
SPEAKER_00
I know, every one I say is gonna be like, ugh, ugh.
14
SPEAKER_00
So it s like every time I open my mouth now, it ll be met with gross.
14
SPEAKER_01
That s fine, I just wanna know.
14
SPEAKER_00
But I m just saying, I know, do you want me to write them all down for you and then send them to you?
14
SPEAKER_00
And then I ll read them?
14
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, by yourself, you can read them out loud.
14
SPEAKER_00
There is a million.
14
SPEAKER_01
Say some more.
14
SPEAKER_00
No, I m not gonna do it.
14
SPEAKER_00
Why?
14
SPEAKER_00
Because I ve already lost at least 10 listeners.
14
SPEAKER_01
No, you haven t.
14
SPEAKER_00
Okay, hair pie.
14
SPEAKER_01
Right.
14
SPEAKER_00
Now, hair pie, no one should say, but I often say, as you know, hair pie a la commode, which is kind of a fun joke.
14
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you love that joke.
14
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
14
SPEAKER_00
I say that when we re at a restaurant, I go, I wonder if they have hair pie a la commode.
14
SPEAKER_01
Right.
14
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
14
SPEAKER_01
I think that s kind of fun.
14
SPEAKER_01
It is funny.
14
SPEAKER_01
These are just like funny words for it, though.
14
SPEAKER_01
They re not what you would actually refer to it as.
14
SPEAKER_00
Oh, being sexy.
14
SPEAKER_00
Right.
14
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, pussy s the main go-to.
14
SPEAKER_01
It is, yeah.
14
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
14
SPEAKER_01
Yet again, we get the short end of the stick.
14
SPEAKER_01
There s no good word.
14
SPEAKER_01
There s no actually sexy word.
14
SPEAKER_01
Pussy s kinda... I know, but a lot of people have ruined it.
14
SPEAKER_00
Right, but that s, again, no matter what you call it, there s gonna be a group of guys that really bastardize it quickly.
14
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you re right.
14
SPEAKER_00
There s no magic word.
14
SPEAKER_00
Kitty, girls like kitty, but that s too... I don t like that.
14
SPEAKER_00
It feels immature to me.
14
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
14
SPEAKER_00
Unless you re a listener and you call it that, then I think it s great.
14
SPEAKER_01
These are all personal preferences.
14
SPEAKER_01
They are.
14
SPEAKER_01
It s all fine.
14
SPEAKER_01
I don t like cats.
14
SPEAKER_01
They eat your brain within 24 hours of death.
14
SPEAKER_00
I was randomly a couple days ago wondering what the origin of pussy is.
14
SPEAKER_00
Is it pussycat?
14
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it is.
14
SPEAKER_00
It is, we know that.
14
SPEAKER_01
I guess I don t know it for certain, but that is what I think.
14
SPEAKER_00
That s what makes logical sense.
14
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and then Kitty, but is it just because of the hair?
14
SPEAKER_00
Or you wanna pet it?
14
SPEAKER_01
Right, like where does, I guess.
14
SPEAKER_00
Or it ll eat your head when you re dead?
14
SPEAKER_01
Well, it will.
14
SPEAKER_01
All right, let s see.
14
SPEAKER_01
I think those are my facts.
14
SPEAKER_01
Those are my facts for Patrick.
14
SPEAKER_01
That was quite an episode.
14
SPEAKER_00
One of my favorites.
14
SPEAKER_01
I m really glad we got to do it.
14
SPEAKER_00
Me too.
14
SPEAKER_00
I applaud her for being open about it.
14
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I can t think of a higher risk thing.
14
SPEAKER_00
I really do.
14
SPEAKER_01
I guess a psychopath is higher risk.
14
SPEAKER_01
If a psychopath asked to come here, I would say we can t do that.
14
SPEAKER_00
That s true.
14
SPEAKER_01
That s too dangerous.
14
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t sound like, I don t know.
14
SPEAKER_00
I didn t leave the interview with total confidence in our diagnosis of these things.
14
SPEAKER_00
I m not sure I know that people are getting diagnosed as psychopath.
14
SPEAKER_00
Like what therapist has gone, okay, well, we ve done your evaluation, and so you are a psychopath.
14
SPEAKER_00
Do you think that sentence has been said in a therapeutic setting?
14
SPEAKER_01
I mean, there are diagnosed psychopaths.
14
SPEAKER_00
I know, but they re generally in prison.
14
SPEAKER_01
Right.
14
SPEAKER_00
I don t know that in regular life.
14
SPEAKER_01
Well, you know that show with Steve Carell?
14
SPEAKER_01
What was that show?
14
SPEAKER_00
Yes, where he was chained up in the basement.
14
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, by his patient who was a psychopath.
14
SPEAKER_00
God.
14
SPEAKER_00
Or was he a sociopath?
14
SPEAKER_00
No, he was a psychopath.
14
SPEAKER_00
He was a psychopath, okay.
14
SPEAKER_01
But yeah, you re right, it s all muddy.
14
SPEAKER_00
I know.
14
SPEAKER_01
It s all muddy, but I think, look, I feel bad.
14
SPEAKER_01
No one s choosing any of this stuff.
14
SPEAKER_00
No, that s what s most important.
14
SPEAKER_00
You re just born.
14
SPEAKER_01
You re just born.
14
SPEAKER_00
You re just born.
14
SPEAKER_00
All right, love you.
14
SPEAKER_01
All right, love you.