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Hey everyone, this is Molly and Matt and we re the hosts of Grown Up Stuff How to Adult, a podcast from Ruby Studio and iHeart Podcasts.
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It s a show dedicated to helping you figure out the trickiest parts of adulting.
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Like how to start planning for retirement, creating a healthy skincare routine, understanding when and how much to tip someone and so much more.
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Let s learn about all of it and then some.
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Listen to Grown Up Stuff How to Adult on America s number one podcast network, iHeart.
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Open your free iHeart app and search Grown Up Stuff.
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This is the story of how a group of people brought music back to Afghanistan by creating their own version of American Idol.
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The joy they brought to the nation.
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You re free completely.
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No one is there to destroy you.
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The danger they endured.
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They said my head should be cut off.
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I m John Legend.
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Listen to Afghan Star on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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A new season of Bridgerton is here.
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And with it, a new season of Bridgerton, the official podcast.
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I m your host, Gabby Collins.
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And this season, we are bringing fans even deeper into the ton.
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Watch season three of the Shondaland series on Netflix.
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Then fall in love all over again by listening to Bridgerton, the official podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Subscribe to catch a new episode every Thursday.
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the biggest conversations in my life, the scariest ones won t even lead to like devastation.
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It just could potentially lead to like a moment of discomfort, of cringe or whatever.
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And it s worth it.
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Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world.
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Thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to listen, learn, and grow.
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It means the world to me that we have this amazing community, and I ve just been seeing the engagement, the connection that you re all having recently, all the Instagram posts, the TikTok posts, the posts on Twitter, like it s unbelievable.
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Thank you so much for all the love, I really mean that.
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And a guest comes along in a while, which I actually hear about from friends, and friends get fascinated.
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And I go, oh, I need to interview this person.
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And that s how I discovered today s guest.
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So I was sitting with a good friend of mine, Ellen DeGeneres, and she said to me that she just watched a special by Gerard Carmichael.
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And she said this special was so special, to not be cliche, this person was so incredible that she was so moved by it.
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And she was like, you have to have him on your show.
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You have to sit down with him.
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You have to talk to him.
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And I was just like, okay.
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So I went and watched it, went and checked him out.
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I was like, oh, this is incredible.
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This is really different to anything we ve also done on the show.
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As you all know, we ve only had a few standup comics and comedians on the show so far.
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You know, so it was really new for us as well.
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But in the two minutes that I ve spent with this gentleman backstage before we go live, I m already addicted to his personality, which is always a good sign.
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So please welcome to the show, Emmy-nominated comedian, Gerard Carmack, or Gerard.
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So good to see you.
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Thank you for doing this.
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Literally, it was Ellen.
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I was sitting in Ellen s house, and I know she listens to the podcast.
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So, Ellen, thank you for listening to the podcast.
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But when she listens to this, she was just like, you have to... And I think you went on the show, too, with her.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Last season, right?
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It was nice.
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I d done it before, but it was nice to go back.
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She s a huge fan.
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I m a fan of hers.
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I told her that, obviously, a comedian that comes out and is incredibly brave, it s rare.
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And she was at a time where it was really hard, where you really, really got canceled for real.
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You know what I mean?
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Actually, the show could get canceled.
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And she was so brave and also incredibly good at her job.
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Yeah.
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You know what I mean?
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And that s, yeah, that s great.
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Yeah, I love it.
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It brought us together, so that s always good.
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Yeah, I m glad, I m glad.
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I mean, a few seconds ago, you were saying that you ve been watching my stuff on Instagram, but when I look at you, you re very private on social media, and you don t post a lot.
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I wanted to understand, was that intentional?
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I got my little private, I have my private IG that is so weird, and someone called me out on it.
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It s like, you re private and verified, and it s silly.
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It s really...
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My publicist set it up with the intention of posting about shows and the like.
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I m someone who doesn t want attention unless I ask for it.
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I m probably the worst celebrity.
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whatever, ever, because I never really chased it.
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I really just like to work and then present that.
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And that s pretty much it.
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And something like Instagram is really, it is me.
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I wouldn t want to present a false version of myself.
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I wouldn t want to be presentational, so I kind of close it off to just like, as of right now, maybe, I don t know if I ll ever do it.
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I ll probably delete it before I open it, but like, I can be like more honest and like a control, like I can just post things that I would actually, I would actually text these things to everyone.
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And so I can remain truthful on Instagram and non-perform, I m a performer who s trying to remain non-performative.
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How s that going?
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Okay, it s okay.
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I ve become funnier, I think, on stage and stuff by not performing, by being truthful.
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I think it s a better version of myself.
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But yeah, it s hard.
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In life, it s hard to do that.
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Well that must feel very comforting I can imagine, because I feel like for so many performers, there s someone on stage because that s their job, and then there s someone at home because that s who they are.
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And so there s always this conflict inside and outside.
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what for you has been like the biggest impact on who you are today?
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Like if you had to say, this is a recipe of how I was created, what would you add to that recipe to say like, Gerard is a little bit of this and a little bit of that?
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Like what s- Sugar and spice.
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Yeah.
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Um, it s a big question.
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It s a big question.
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It s a huge question.
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Um, I, I don t know if I ll be able to fully answer it.
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Cause like, you know, I m influenced by, you know,
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The time I m in, who I am, being American, all of those things that we re all influenced by as a performer, influenced by everyone from Cosby to Jack Benny to Rock and Chappelle and really good people, people who are really good at their job.
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But lately I ve been really influenced by just this drive to not lie.
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You know, like to not lie and like it s made me a storyteller because then like just trying to, you know, tell things about me or things in my life that like are scary is funnier, I found for the work and being around people that I don t have to try and protect my words with is more comforting.
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Yeah.
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When you were growing up, what was the environment for you growing up?
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We just talked about North Carolina, which is where you were born and raised, right?
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So what was the environment like when you were growing up and for you, how early was it that you discovered that this was going to be a path in life?
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Because I think for me, I m always intrigued to figure out how people discover things they re passionate about and things that they love because that s so rare.
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How early was it for you and what was the environment that you grew up in?
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It was pretty early.
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I was a kid that performed a lot.
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I asked for a microphone every year at Christmas.
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That was my constant.
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I was obsessed with microphones as a kid.
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I sang on the choir, even when I was a kid.
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Like three, my mom was an usher and she would, after church, I would cry until she held me up to the mic so I could, I just like, I like it.
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I really respect it.
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It s powerful.
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It amplifies your voice.
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People listen to it so intimately in a performance setting.
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Even now, people are listening to this through headphones.
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It s so personal.
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And so my whole life, I ve kind of always felt that way.
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I ve always filmed things.
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I ve always written.
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I ve always performed.
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And then I fought against it, I think, for a period.
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I was really encouraged by a friend to make the leap and move to LA.
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and do that.
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I lived here for like 10 years.
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And I thought it was arrogant because I do think asking for people s attention is precious.
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I try not to be super precious in my work, but asking for their time, like doing a show.
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If I m doing a show and I put up tickets and people spend money for tickets and then they drive out to the venue and they sit there and they wait for you and then they listen to you.
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That s asking a lot, and so especially recently, just respect that more.
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I think I have the respect that has been growing in me since childhood for it.
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The nudging of a friend got me out to LA, but yeah, I love performance.
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I love hearing that because I feel the same way that some people listen to this podcast every day.
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So they listen to the two new episodes and then they ll listen to old episodes.
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And I m thinking sometimes I m in people s ears every week for five to seven hours a week.
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And I m thinking that is so, I m so fortunate, right?
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Like there s so much gratitude around that, that someone allows you into their, whether you are walking the dog right now, whether you re cooking, whether you re editing, whether you re cleaning, whatever you re doing at home right now.
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And.
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You said that you ve always had that belief that having someone s ears or eyes or money or them turning up is precious.
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Tell me about then your, how does that lead into your creative process?
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Because I feel like, for me, knowing that I just finished writing my second book, it took me two years to write it, and I put a lot of effort into it, and I know that when I ve written a book, it s taken two years of my life to write it, I m putting it out, I have to, the creative,
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effort is so high.
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Because A, the book pages don t change.
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You can t edit those pages once they re out.
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And someone s going to take their time.
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It takes like, potentially.
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But it s like written word.
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Written word, yeah.
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Written word is so, I always thought it was crazy that Twitter uses the word publish, right?
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Because like, it s like, it induces in me such anxiety, just thinking about the, how permanent it is in placing things out there that you can t get back.
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And like, that s why like,
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If I m going to perform, I think it s like, I don t do social media because I would like to put all of that energy in.
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And I don t even say I don t do social media.
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Even that in itself could be a grand performance.
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I mean, Kanye is an incredible performer.
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It is very Warhol-ish in that it s spectacle, to use a Jordan Peele word.
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But, you know, that s its own art form.
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It can be its own art form.
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But, like, I put all of my energy into, like, I m a comedian.
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I make specials and I make television programming or whatever programs.
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I make movies occasionally.
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And whenever I m doing that, I would only like for all of my energy and all of my thoughts to go to that.
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Yeah.
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And then present that.
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I know I m kind of repeating myself.
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No, no, no, no, no.
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We re going deeper into it.
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Yeah, we re going deeper into it.
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And what s your creative process like?
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So you re saying you put all of your energy, but like when you re building a special or one of those TV shows, like how do you even start?
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Like where, where s the process?
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What s the starting point?
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Like how do you get inspired at the beginning of it?
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I mean, it s a spark of something, you know, something a lot of times, it s like anger.
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I think I started this, just like a little angry, then just started performing, doing clubs and then solo shows and then, you know, preparing to do it for television and like,
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I do stand up for specials, I think, at my core.
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I think my attention reads better in that medium.
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And working backward from what that is, then take the writing and form a show.
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My last special, it happened really fast.
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just frustrations with secrets and feeling too old to keep them.
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I didn t feel like an adult.
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I didn t feel like I had control of my own life.
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And so that created a lot of urgency to find a way to
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resolve that in art.
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It s just that attempt, like make it special.
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And that s like my attempt.
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I m sorry, I m probably going all over the place.
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I mean, that s a great answer to hear.
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Honestly, that s not... I m trying not to be like evasive about it.
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It really is just like it s... I ve been writing for years and I m always writing.
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Sometimes that becomes a show.
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Sometimes it becomes something else.
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It s mostly like most of creating is just a bunch of like...
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trying and failing that no one sees, you know, and like, you know, failing in my own writing, failing in my own head over and over and over and over again, and like trying to make something right or show, you know, structure a show.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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But I love what you said that anger or frustration with your own identity and your secrets, I mean, that whole concept
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is so real, I think, for so many of us, whatever that secret may be, whatever that identity may be personally.
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I say to like, you know, my friends, like, I really think like everybody s in the closet about something.
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Yeah.
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Right.
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There s a thing.
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Shame is such a powerful emotion, a strong, I mean, plenty of books about just how it can dictate the course of your life and your actions and your behavior.
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And so much is driven by shame and so much of
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who we are is just our attempts to hide that little piece of ourselves that can never be seen.
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At least it s been a common experience amongst people I ve talked to and friends.
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I m sure you get a high volume of it.
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And so, yeah, it was exciting and really scary to try and make something that
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dealt with that head on.
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And that s how I ve been feeling in my personal life, just even though it s kind of a blur between my work and my personal life now.
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But I ve been trying to have conversations that I d never had and trying to deal with shame and trying to restructure my relationship with God.
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Wow.
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Am I the funniest comedian you ve had on the show?
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I m the funniest, right?
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That s a scary question.
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I hope I m killing right now.
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No, but the shame part, I love that you went in that direction because I think that naturally shame is one of those topics that isn t talked about a lot publicly.
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So to even bring it up in a podcast is great because we can actually talk about it, but
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I find like we also live in a culture where shaming has become more normal, right?
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So we re talking about a time when we ve realized how powerful shame is as an emotion and how much it limits us from truly being ourselves.
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At the same time, shaming or cancel culture is growing at the same time.
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How do you mean?
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I feel like today we point more fingers at others because we know more of what others are doing.
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We are more likely to tear someone down because we can, whereas in the past, you wouldn t have access to do that.
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You might do it in your dining table or you might do it on your couch at home, but you didn t have the ability to go on social media and leave
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hate comments or whatever.
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So it s interesting that you re saying that at the same time as you re saying that, hey, we need, you know, shame is holding people back from being themselves.
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We re also shaming others more, I guess, or we have more opportunity to.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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We have an opportunity to speak a lot.
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That s a funny statement in and of itself, yeah.
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It s so much of that, so much of that.
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And to speak constantly and emotionally, you know, it s hard to like have intention in every tweet, in every post, in every... Should we, is the question.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Well, it s even more powerful than the word spoken in a private setting, you know, because it s something that
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is even if you have one follower, you know, it has the potential of being seen and expressed amongst others.
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So like, you know, your intention reads and yeah, and I question that a lot.
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I mean, we could go down and on for hours and hours about like its effect on us and like, you know, even just thinking about
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Even myself, when I m on Instagram, on my little private IG, I have a decent group of friends that I follow.
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And it s just, it s so abnormal to catch up or have the illusion of catching up with.
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all of them constantly on loop.
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There are people sometimes that I see that I feel like I ve seen, but I haven t actually had that experience with them.
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I ve only had this experience with the representative that s on close friends or whatever.
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And yeah, it s just not...
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expressing that much.
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Like I have this theory that we all are kind of becoming our own news channel.
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Like we re all the news and we have to, we re all CNN or Fox or whatever.
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And we all have to fill the time.
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Like we have to fill the space.
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Like, and the more you do it, the more inclined you are to do it.
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And again, it s just hard to keep
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that married to intention, you know, like the sheer volume.
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If you just speak, if I wake up in the morning, I just speak all day and I never pause.
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It would be difficult to promise that everything I say would have as much intention, just the sheer volume.
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Yeah, I like that theory.
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I like that theory a lot.
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That s cool because I went to someone s house once and it s without a doubt the coolest house I ve ever been to.
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This is a very cool house.
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So you re saying that from a very cool house.
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No, but this was like, this is like, and I m saying it s a cool house, not because of the building, not because of the grandeur.
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And same with this.
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I don t think that s why I think I like my own house was because of what he had in it.
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So he had a whole wall.
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and he called it the fake news wall because it was every piece of news that was published before they knew the time.
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So back in the day, if a newspaper was being printed, if a game wasn t over, they d have to print the news with who was winning at the time in hope that, right?
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So all of this, whether it was people winning games, whether it was votes, whatever it was, it was like articles that had been printed before the fact.
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Wow.
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So he had all of it in America, like all these big, and I was thinking, this is fascinating.
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And what you re saying right now is that without intention, a lot of what we create is fake news in our own little news channels.
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Yeah.
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Well, well, because things change, you know, your, your, uh, my opinion on an album,
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For instance, even just something as trivial as my feelings toward a song or an album or whatever, it changes.
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It changes over the course of a week.
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It changes through how I ve listened to it.
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I imagine if I were just talking publicly about...
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Kendrick s last album, which I went from not understanding, to not liking, to only liking the interludes, to then listening to it while I was getting a Mandy Petty, and I turned the volume halfway down so I could actually hear the words.
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I had to focus on the words.
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Something about the lower volume made me pay attention more, and hearing what he was saying, and then being in love with the album.
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And those tweets would have been a rollercoaster.
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It s just like of emotion if I just like, if I put that out like constantly because your thoughts towards something should like change and evolve and like sometimes it may take a little while to reach stable ground on.
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And some people would argue that the journey is authenticity.
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Yes.
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But what is?
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what is authenticity to you as a comedian, as someone who s, like, the theories that you just said, like, how do you define what is authentic and real and what isn t for you?
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When the Taliban banned music in Afghanistan, millions were plunged into silence.
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Radios were smashed, cassettes burned.
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You could be beaten or jailed or killed for breaking the rules.
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And yet, Afghans did it anyway.
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This is the story of how a group of people brought music back to Afghanistan by creating their own version of American Idol.
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The danger they endured.
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They said my head should be cut off.
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The joy they brought to the nation.
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You re free completely.
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No one is there to destroy you.
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I m John Legend.
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Listen to Afghan Star on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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SPEAKER_00
Hey, everyone, this is Molly and Matt, and we re the hosts of Grown Up Stuff How to Adult, a podcast from Ruby Studio and iHeart Podcasts.
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It s a show dedicated to helping you figure out the trickiest parts of adulting.
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like how to start planning for retirement, creating a healthy skincare routine, understanding when and how much to tip someone, and so much more.
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We re back with season two of the podcast, which means more opportunities to glow up and become a more responsible and better adult, one life lesson at a time.
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And let me just tell you, this show is just as much for us as it is for you.
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So let s figure this stuff out together.
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This season, we re going to talk about whether or not we re financially and emotionally ready for dog ownership.
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We re going to figure out the benefits of a high yield savings account.
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And what exactly are the duties of being a member of the wedding party?
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All that plus so much more.
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Let s learn about all of it and then some.
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SPEAKER_00
Listen to Grown Up Stuff How to Adult on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
2
SPEAKER_01
A new season of Bridgerton is here.
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And with it, a new season of Bridgerton, the official podcast.
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I m your host, Gabrielle Collins.
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And this season, we are bringing fans even deeper into the ton.
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Colin Bridgerton has returned from his travels abroad.
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Is Betrothal written in the stars for the eligible bachelor?
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Meanwhile, the ton is reverberating with speculation of who holds Lady Whistledown s pen.
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We re discussing it all.
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I sit down with Nicola Coughlin, Luke Newton, Shonda Rhimes, and more to offer an exclusive peek behind the scenes of each episode of the new season.
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SPEAKER_01
Watch season three of the Shondaland series on Netflix.
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Then fall in love all over again by listening to Bridgerton, the official podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Subscribe to catch a new episode every Thursday.
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I try, a lot of things are true, right?
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Like you can go, I could, I was presenting a lot of true things, right?
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Like things that I thought were hard facts or perspective that people wouldn t want to say out loud or be able to tolerate.
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And, and, you know, I did believe it and it was true, but it wasn t like, in my eyes, the most compelling version of, of, of the truth.
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I ve found like now, like when working, I run toward things I m afraid of and that have personal consequence.
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in my life, so talking about me, because I never really talked about myself before, never considered myself a storyteller.
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And this is something I m in many ways making art while learning in real time, but it is and has become my live show, just like this kind of personal exploration, not just that
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things that bring me shame.
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And again, it s hard to talk about the show only because I m sure I m making it sound... I must give the caveat that it s actually funnier than I ve been, but I try and keep it
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compelling, you know, like I try and keep stakes in the act and like tension there.
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Like that s my new focus is, you know, both says I like give the audience a lot, like more giving and I have more need for them now more than ever.
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And I like that experience.
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So yeah, yeah, yeah.
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It s really personal now.
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Like it s the things that are dangerous to me, like the evil Knievel things are like my feelings toward,
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you know, myself or my feelings toward, you know, relationships that I had.
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What was, what was the first thing you think you ever combated through that art exploration internally as a fear?
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Like, I love that idea that your storytelling now or your specials, they re a exploration of something you re scared of.
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What was the first ever thing?
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Do you remember that you were scared of?
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No, that s, I kind of baby stepped into my last project.
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Right.
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Uh, so
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I was like, I made these documentaries for HBO where I went home and I was confronting my father s adultery and my mother s forgiveness of him.
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And I tried to come out to my mom, but I did it in a very...
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It was fearful.
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So like, I was like, I hooked up with dudes before, like, just like kind of waiting for a reaction, you know, and it wasn t full truth.
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And then, you know, some time later, I like came out to my family and had
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still resonating consequences to that.
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It affected our relationship in a real way.
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There s a lot of anxiety and not speaking.
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I ve kind of separated myself from my family a lot recently.
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I only share because I m still in that part of the process.
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I want to be honest about it.
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pray that it gets better.
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And we should talk later about what prayer means to me.
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But it s, you know, great, again, like kind of personal consequence.
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And so my last special, Rathaniel, was me, you know, really kind of drawing a line in
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in the sand with my family, coming out publicly, contending with my father s adultery, its effect on me, the kind of generational trauma caused by adultery, caused by having other kids outside the marriage that were kept secrets and how just years of secrets kind of repressed us and repressed me into a liar, you know, a liar and unable to tell my own truth.
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And so I look at the special as being the synopsis could read like on HBO, like man afraid of heights jumps out of an airplane for the first time.
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Like that was my last special.
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Like that was the intention was doing the scariest thing I could imagine.
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I never thought I would ever come out.
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I was afraid of the public s reaction.
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I was mostly afraid of my mother s.
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That was the feat walking on to the stage and doing it.
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Yeah, I mean, even just hearing you say that, I mean, that is so inspiring as a creative person, to hear that your creative impetus or intention or process is to confront a fear, a shame, something that difficult.
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And of course, you re doing it through comedy, which is even harder in one sense, because you re making these extremely deep traumatic events.
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lighthearted to some degree, where people are able to be entertained.
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But the thing is, what I ve found with audiences is that when I go, when I share things that are personal to me, no matter what the danger, and I ve said things that are... I mean, this has happened in real time.
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It s like tweets, like art is capturing a moment in time.
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That s why I try and focus all the energy on one thing.
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Like my special is just one IG live.
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You know what I mean?
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It s like the one thing that I focused on.
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I found that when it s personal.
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It s not the same.
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Audiences... I m talking about how I feel.
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I m talking about me.
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I m talking about things I went through and how that developed this perspective, right?
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That s all truthful, is different than if I m just talking about... Which you can do.
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I m all for
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whether you like it or not, kind of comedy, free speech, you have every right to do that.
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Like, and comedians do that.
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And I did that, I mean, most of my career, but still up until recently was a lot of that, trying to say the thing.
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I like to think of mine was more intellectual, but that s my own egotistical argument for it.
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But, you know, but now I m talking about me.
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And when I m talking about me, like audiences react with empathy or compassion.
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Even when I say, sometimes I say like some wild things,
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you know, but it s mine.
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It s personal.
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Like that s, that s different.
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You have ownership over how you feel, you know, and that s what I want my art to be.
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Just like how I feel right now.
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Just like a, an emotion, like a pure intention bottled.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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A lot.
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Yeah.
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I get that.
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You ve, you ve said it s interesting though.
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Your language is like full of like intention, truth, like,
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Yeah, and I almost hate it because it s like these are powerful words that obviously get overused and I m sure I m overusing it.
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I don t think you are.
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It s like the word platform, like I hate the word platform.
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But I don t think you re overusing them.
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I feel like...
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I don t think you re overusing them from, from at least what I m, I m generating from this conversation.
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Like, I guess, I guess what I m fascinated by is like what you said, you said you were, I think you used the word and I could have got the word wrong, but you said you were reconstructing a relationship with God or reframing that.
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And then you said, let me define what prayer is to me.
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Let s do both those things.
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What did you said?
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I pray.
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It s in many ways one in the same, because I think my entire life I ve kind of believed this, but didn t have the language to, to articulate.
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how I felt, and that is truly taking the Christianity that I was taught growing up my whole life, went to church every Sunday, even when my mama worked, I went with my grandma, sang in the choir, Sunday school class into regular service, stayed after, talked in the parking lot, full church boy, and learning about God,
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the man in the sky who at, you know, your requests can show you benevolence and at as consequence for your sins punish you.
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Right.
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And I was I was taught about this man and internalize this man.
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And he dictated my actions and my words and my fear and
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Then I read this book by Eric Butterworth called Discover the Power Within You.
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And it helped me articulate how I felt, which is, if you take Christ s words as philosophy, right, like just like, take away this human need to worship
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the light and just listen and accepting your own divinity.
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And by divinity, I don t want to be confused because I think blues, sometimes non-religious people, I mean your, you know, potential for to function fully.
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That s all something that Christ has said that you have, you have at birth.
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It is your right and you are essentially God.
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manifesting himself as Jay, as Gerard.
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I accept that.
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I accept my own potential.
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I realize that prayers are just affirmations that you are asking for what you already have.
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I think it s why good advice feels familiar.
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someone says something you re like, yes.
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Oh, yes, I knew that.
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Yeah.
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You know, that s why you connect with it.
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That is so true.
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And it s it is there, you know, and it s divinity that that we all have access to.
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But it s always like the
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you know, practice that s rough, right?
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Because it s easier, it was easier for me, I want to speak personally, it was easier for me to just accept a God that I can sin and then ask for forgiveness and, you know, a Bible that I didn t fully understand and just kind of accept that there s this external force dictating and
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The devil relinquished me of responsibility for my own actions.
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I was able to kind of back away from things.
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That wasn t me, that was the devil.
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And now by internalizing that philosophy and seeing it as philosophy,
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I had to remove the magic from the Bible, right.
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And this is what works for me and I m saying it cautiously because I know like, I can still see the ears of my mother perking up so I m saying that this is what has helped me.
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just like realizing that God is me functioning as I can, you know, and things function as they can access to good, like we all have access to good, even through tragedy, even through pain, you know, those words of the Bible become different, they hit a little different when you accept yourself as innately divine, right, you know,
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all things work for good through God who strengthens me, you know, like Philippians is something that you know, you return, oh, I can use all of this for good.
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I can take what, you know, I can take the rubble or things from the ashes and make something new out of this and continue forward, like with a sense of purpose, with a sense of duty.
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I can form that, you know, taking tragedy and we see it all the time, like, you know,
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parents of children who ve gone through tragedies, or, or, you know, people just with loved ones who experienced something, and then they take what s been destroyed and they make something new, you know, and and that that is the Bible that s using your own innate power to move forward and
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That s the line between me and my mother, that s been the line between me and the church my entire life.
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I ve always wanted to believe that, and it wasn t until I came out, or even accepted, let s just say accepted who I was, that I was forced to then say, okay, well, God, as taught to me, is not accepting of me.
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And I had to re-examine in order to not destroy myself.
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Yeah.
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I love hearing your thought process because it s so real, like you re so in it.
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And as someone who s created a piece of art based on a fear, you ve had to live through that fear again and again and again in the creation process.
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How did it feel?
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Did you feel that making a piece of art on
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on that relinquished a fear and now you could move on to another shame or another guilt or another fear, or what was it like?
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Does that make sense?
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Yeah, yeah.
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And speaking of that fear, I did a few shows on the road in preparation for the special and I was coming out to audience members that knew me every night.
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It was like a new, it was like jumping off a cliff.
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That s what I mean, yeah.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And it was a lot, but it is how I knew it s the direction I needed to go in because it did scare me.
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And I, you know, I ve learned to trust that that feeling isn t always that.
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I m going in the wrong direction, but in fact that I m going, there s like a lot of fertile ground.
4
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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It s the, the fear, it just stays, it just stays the whole time, the whole time until it s released.
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And then you kind of release the fear.
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Did you feel you released the fear when that happened?
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Yeah.
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In many ways.
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Well, in many ways, because I feel,
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more truthful publicly now, which feels great.
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Yeah, that feels really, really good.
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Yeah.
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And so I don t have the fear of being found out in that way.
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But there s still, I m definitely still fighting through shame and how it s manifested itself in my life through, you know, things that
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really like that I could call hypochondria or OCD or whatever, but really like anxieties rooted in shame that I m working through and that I m trying to understand better myself.
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And I feel it like my job to explore that, you know, so.
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I kind of chase that feeling.
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I don t recommend it.
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I was just about to say, I was like, how do you recommend people do this?
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Because I think that whether you re a performer or not, we all have to go through this process.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I do recommend like for whatever it s worth me saying like that you run toward all of the
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things that you re afraid of in a truthful way, contend with it with an open mind.
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I think that s very, very important.
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How did you do it in a way that didn t break you or hurt you?
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Because I think that s where people are scared of shame and guilt because it feels like a broken piece of glass.
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And so when you pick up a broken piece of glass, you could get cut.
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So people are like, oh, it s just better to just shove it away.
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I don t know.
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And I m still like, you know, I still like, I feel like I m still picking it up.
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But good friends, very, very important in my case.
4
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And, you know, people that remind me where the ground is, you know, just get caught up in all of it.
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All of it.
4
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Anxiety is real.
4
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I m recently admitting that I experience anxiety.
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I ran away from admitting that much of my life.
4
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Yeah, I can relate to that.
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I remember a few years ago, my mom would always tell me, I think you re stressed.
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And I d be like, I m not stressed, I m fine.
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And I didn t even want to admit it to myself.
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So it s not that I was lying to her, I was lying to myself.
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I didn t even want to, because I was scared that if I let that in, then that would change me somehow.
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That it would block me or stop me.
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And I didn t realize that.
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And that you re weak.
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Totally, yeah.
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It s the thought that you re weak.
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How dare you.
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Oh, you re being consumed by these.
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Oh, this small little thing is eating you up and it s just like,
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SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
And it is.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_03
And I had a friend that I remember was going through depression very early on and like this when we were much younger and I didn t, I was like, how can you be depressed?
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You ve got nothing to be depressed.
4
SPEAKER_03
You know, that kind of mindset.
4
SPEAKER_03
And then you go for something yourself and you go,
4
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God, I experienced depression.
4
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And I was scared of accepting it.
4
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And it took me, it was the same for me.
4
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It was the weak aspect.
4
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It was the aspect of no, no, no, some people have it much worse.
4
SPEAKER_03
Like, what am I complaining about?
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SPEAKER_03
It was the shame that came with, oh no, but I m, you know, if my mom thinks I m stressed, then she ll get stressed.
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SPEAKER_00
So it s like the guilt that you, all of that.
4
SPEAKER_00
And any excuse not to confront it, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, confront it.
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SPEAKER_03
And I feel like you just keep putting it off.
4
SPEAKER_03
And now I ve realized that,
4
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I need to talk to that feeling or emotion when it arises because me putting it away just makes it get bigger and darker and deeper.
4
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And that s what I find so interesting doing it through art because
4
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when you re putting it out in front of other people again, now it s their mind, their impression gets involved too, like what they re going to think of it.
4
SPEAKER_03
What is it right now, if you said that there s a fear right now or a shame or guilt right now that you re trying to unpack next, like is there something that, not that you re working on specifically for a new project, but even just in your own life?
4
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Yeah, probably emotional blocks that stopped me from being in a healthy relationship with someone.
4
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And as someone who came out publicly later, I realized that there are phases and things that I go through and that it s normal to go through.
4
SPEAKER_00
But just understanding those blocks.
4
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has been interesting to me as of late, in dealing with the things that don t sound cool.
4
SPEAKER_03
Like, give me an example.
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SPEAKER_00
I can t.
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SPEAKER_00
Well, only because, not even that I don t want to, but I m only respecting that on stage is a different place that allows me to say things
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I get it.
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I may say something that I m like, well, now we need another hour.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m like, well, dude, can I explain everything that led to that?
4
SPEAKER_00
I don t know.
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SPEAKER_00
I love that.
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I mean, just things that are personally scary to me.
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There are no bodies or anything, but there are things that have emotional consequences that I ve run from.
4
SPEAKER_03
I like how simple you went back to, it s just like good friends, like, you know, friends are just, it sounds like such a basic thing.
4
SPEAKER_03
And I was, we had some friends over that hadn t seen for years this weekend.
4
SPEAKER_03
And we were all just appreciating that as well in terms of, I remember I, I ve been coaching people for a long time.
4
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And that was really what my work was before I did any of what I do today.
4
SPEAKER_03
And all I ever met was people who were lonely at the top, like that was consistent with my experience.
4
SPEAKER_03
And so I would often say to myself that while I m building my life, I want to make sure that I build relationships at the same time as build things.
4
SPEAKER_03
And I don t just mean like love and romantic, I mean like friendships, as you re saying.
4
SPEAKER_03
And I ve realized just how much time that takes, how much energy that takes, how much effort that takes, but how fulfilling it is.
4
SPEAKER_03
And it sounds so simple and it s so basic.
4
SPEAKER_00
Oh, it s difficult.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it s almost a lot of the things that drive you to be successful are isolating.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like there is a lot of accepted selfishness, even amongst friend groups.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like I at times have been a horrible friend.
4
SPEAKER_00
like a very selfish friend.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, I mean, just like get on the phone, talk about me for an hour.
4
SPEAKER_00
All right, bye.
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SPEAKER_00
You know, just like a one-sided friend, a friend who s used money to supplement connection, a friend who s like kept friends at arm s distance so I could work or focus or however I justified it.
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SPEAKER_00
And I still do that.
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SPEAKER_00
I still do that.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, and I value,
4
SPEAKER_00
my work and so specifically in art like it s like licensed to sometimes indulge in like behavior or in emotions that are harmful to relationships and I can t tell if that s
4
SPEAKER_00
Look, it s not okay, but it s like an occupation hazard.
4
SPEAKER_03
Occupational hazard, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s an occupational hazard.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s like you re, I don t know, I have to go there.
4
SPEAKER_00
I have to go into this cave.
4
SPEAKER_01
Guess what, Bango?
4
SPEAKER_01
What s that, Will?
4
SPEAKER_01
So iHeart is giving us a whole minute to promote our podcast, Part-Time Genius.
4
SPEAKER_02
I know, that s why I spent my whole week composing a haiku for the occasion.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s about my emotional journey in podcasting over the last seven years, and it s called Earthquake House.
4
SPEAKER_01
Mango, I m going to cut you off right there.
4
SPEAKER_01
Why don t we just tell people about our show instead?
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, that s a better idea.
4
SPEAKER_02
So every week on Part-Time Genius, we feed our curiosity by answering the world s most important questions.
4
SPEAKER_02
Things like, when did America start dialing 911?
4
SPEAKER_02
Is William Shatner s best acting work in Esperanto?
4
SPEAKER_02
Also, what happened to Esperanto?
4
SPEAKER_01
Plus, we cover questions like how Chinese is your Chinese food?
4
SPEAKER_01
How do dollar stores stay in business?
4
SPEAKER_01
And of course, is there an Illuminati of cheese?
4
SPEAKER_01
There absolutely is.
4
SPEAKER_02
And we are risking our lives by talking about it.
4
SPEAKER_02
But if you love mind blowing facts, incredible history and really bad jokes, make your brains happy and tune in to part time genius.
4
SPEAKER_02
Listen to Part Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
5
SPEAKER_00
find fascinating about it is the awareness of it, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
I think the lack of awareness, a lot of people may be doing that, but they don t even know why.
5
SPEAKER_00
Whereas, and I can relate to a lot of that, like I ve definitely been very clear with
5
SPEAKER_00
friends, family, things like that, about what I can and can t do based on what I m working on.
5
SPEAKER_00
But it s different when it s carved out, when it s communicated.
5
SPEAKER_00
And when it s, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
That helps.
5
SPEAKER_00
That definitely helps.
5
SPEAKER_01
That definitely helps.
5
SPEAKER_01
And that s a part of honesty and not lying to yourself about what you re doing.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
Being able to say, okay, like I used to be so late to work, you know, just because like, I m just in my head and like, I know how long it takes me to like,
5
SPEAKER_01
shift gears and like, I would lie to him about, I didn t realize I was lying, but I would be like, we re starting at three, you know, and then like 530, I m like, okay, I m ready, you know, and he s, and I m wasting his time.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m being a horrible, it s not even productive for me because like, now I m trying to like work closely with someone who s like,
5
SPEAKER_01
like justifiably frustrated with me, you know?
5
SPEAKER_01
And so like, just like learning to communicate even like, oh, look, this is how I m feeling right now.
5
SPEAKER_01
This is how I m feeling today.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I m working on like.
5
SPEAKER_01
I don t even know if we re going to get to it.
5
SPEAKER_01
And he s like, look, then I ll make it as a loose plan.
5
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I ll either see you at three or in two weeks.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
And that s what we re so scared of communicating.
5
SPEAKER_00
And that s what I feel the same way I used to talk about in relationships.
5
SPEAKER_00
So with my wife for a long time, I d always be like,
5
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three nights this week, I just need to spend time alone.
5
SPEAKER_00
You can say that, or you can say, hey, these three nights, I m working on this thing, which means I need some time and space.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s totally different to, hey, these three nights, I m just going to be home late.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it takes a little bit more time and energy and effort.
5
SPEAKER_00
And this isn t about advice, it s just about the idea of what you re saying, that you re actually creating more issues for yourself by not communicating.
5
SPEAKER_00
And the courage
5
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that it takes, it just pays off.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like you just said, your friends are like, oh, I m clear now.
5
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But saying the thing that is potentially awkward, and it s not even that, a lot of times like the biggest conversations in my life, the scariest ones won t even lead to like devastation.
5
SPEAKER_01
It just could potentially lead to like a moment of discomfort.
5
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discomfort of cringe or whatever.
5
SPEAKER_01
And it s worth it.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s worth it.
5
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My friends that I m closest with have essentially have caught me out on a lie, which is a difficult thing to do.
5
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And we survived it and we re closer because of it.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s impressive.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s impressive.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, most people can t take that, but that s where it comes back to awareness.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like even earlier you mentioned ego and it was like even the ability to see your own ego is a healthy sense of awareness.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, we re in this attention economy right now where, like you said, we talked about this, we started with this, the idea that everyone s trying to grapple for people s attention.
5
SPEAKER_00
People will even invent things in their life
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to get attention because it s so hard to get attention when you re trying to not even get attention.
5
SPEAKER_01
People are raising their children on the internet.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like people are like, camera, like their children are like sleeping.
5
SPEAKER_00
But with that, like the attention part, like how is it that
5
SPEAKER_00
then in a world where then you re trying, you re saying that you re still, you still have to compete for attention, but you re trying to do it for fear and exploration and art, like.
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, because to me, that s like interesting to me.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s interesting because it s scary and it s like, it makes a lot of emotion for me.
5
SPEAKER_01
And like, not only respecting people s time, but realizing, you know, just how hard it is to get anyone s attention for a moment and,
5
SPEAKER_01
to make people feel anything, you know, because that s also if you re inundated with bad news, even like you, you know, people, A, either seek good news through their art or B, like, you know, only a really authentic version of something can even resonate or have the potential to resonate with a viewer or a listener.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so I respect it and I know it s hard, so that s why I save it for when it s ready.
5
SPEAKER_01
Even if it s a daily show, if I were doing a daily show, I would just save it all for that night.
5
SPEAKER_01
But that s just how, again, I say that with a disclaimer, with a nonjudgmental disclaimer of, you know, of someone who follows accounts on Instagram that I find funny or in some ways inspirational or whatever.
5
SPEAKER_01
But it s always like, there s always like the truth that like really gets me.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s why I love sports.
5
SPEAKER_01
Sports is true.
5
SPEAKER_01
I watch, I don t even watch sports, but I watch ESPN all day, every day.
5
SPEAKER_01
Sports Center, Around the Horn, PTI, just like facts, facts, facts.
5
SPEAKER_01
Truth, truth, truth.
5
SPEAKER_01
Opinions, plenty of opinions.
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SPEAKER_01
It s funny.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s just an honest.
5
SPEAKER_00
What s your favorite sport?
5
SPEAKER_00
Whatever.
5
SPEAKER_00
Oh, right.
5
SPEAKER_00
Oh, it doesn t matter.
5
SPEAKER_01
I also like straight things for gay reasons.
5
SPEAKER_01
So like, I m like really obsessed with the lighting of basketball.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, this stadium is like, you know, this arena is gorgeous.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, like, you know, the golden light of the garden or whatever.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like, I m a but but I m obsessed with the production of it.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m obsessed with like, yeah, you know.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s funny.
5
SPEAKER_00
I ve never heard that.
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SPEAKER_00
Sports is truth.
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, it s a TV show.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like my, you know, friends who really, truly love sports.
5
SPEAKER_01
But I m like, yeah, the NBA is just like a long running television program.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, like Michael Jordan was one of my favorite stars of that program.
5
SPEAKER_01
He got me to watch it on TV.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, like it s, you know, a tour.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s a televised tour.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s an interesting way to see it.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m obsessed with soccer, football.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, but the rules of performance when I go to games, you know, it s a full show.
5
SPEAKER_01
They re also trying to keep the audience s attention the whole time.
5
SPEAKER_00
In America it s a show, in England it s not a show.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, in England it s not like that.
5
SPEAKER_00
So if you go to sports in England, there is no entertainment but the sport.
5
SPEAKER_00
The sport is the entertainment.
5
SPEAKER_01
Even advertising in England seems so, like when you re going down, like in London, if you re walking down the Strand, part of what makes it gorgeous is that it s just like these really like, these giant brick buildings that reflect light well and have no, it s not a lot of,
5
SPEAKER_00
Ads, yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
It s different.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s just like clean.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
And sports is like that.
5
SPEAKER_00
You won t, you ll see sponsors on shirts obviously and sponsors around the pitch, but it s, it s different.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like I, I realized that when I came to the U.S.
5
SPEAKER_00
I was like, oh wow, everything s entertainment.
5
SPEAKER_00
Everything, you know, not just the sport.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
You guys do do the giant soccer.
5
SPEAKER_01
I don t like, I mean, some of the jerseys are cool.
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SPEAKER_01
I don t like it on the NBA jerseys.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s like not worth the.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
The real estate.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
You mean Quicken Loans right here.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like give a kid a clean jersey, for the love of God.
5
SPEAKER_01
But yeah, yeah, it s like, I mean, America s done it in a way that s just so, it s so part of the culture.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s like even like movies, you know, I ve fought really hard in my movie to even keep just like Coke bottles or something.
5
SPEAKER_01
Cause that is, like to me, that looks American.
5
SPEAKER_01
You re looking at a photograph of New York or LA, like I could in many places recognize it by the advertisements and just like the pure ubiquity of it.
5
SPEAKER_00
Totally.
5
SPEAKER_00
What s your take on, I guess, as looking, I love how you have theories and insights on all different industries, looking at the advertising industry or looking at product placement, looking at that, like, is there, do you have any interesting theories about how ads have changed?
5
SPEAKER_00
Because obviously now we re going from targeted ads, ads everywhere.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, you re, you re off social media, but like, I m just fascinated to hear your thoughts on advertising and attention, like, and, and why we fall for every time, because
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I m susceptible to... Me too.
5
SPEAKER_00
I love good advertising.
5
SPEAKER_01
I have an iPhone.
5
SPEAKER_01
iPhones aren t even the best phones, but I bought one.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like, I see pixels and stuff.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m like, that is amazing.
5
SPEAKER_01
But you won t buy one?
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, I mean, no.
5
SPEAKER_01
What am I going to like, text my friends from like a green bubble?
5
SPEAKER_01
But like, it s because of the app, like it really sold, like Apple sold me on a dream and I m a sucker who bought it.
5
SPEAKER_01
And like, and it s sleek and it s cool.
5
SPEAKER_01
I mean, they re obviously great qualities to whatever, but like, like I m, I m very susceptible to things.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m just, I m susceptible to words and images just like, you know, and so that s part of the reason it s hard for me to see things.
5
SPEAKER_01
Cause I know like,
5
SPEAKER_01
It s a lot for me.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s why I have to do the YouTube no ads.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
I mean, now it s an interesting thing.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s a lot of brands that are afraid of its customer, and really a lot of corporations that are very timidly putting friendly, diverse commercials forward.
5
SPEAKER_01
And they always wanted to appease everyone.
6
SPEAKER_00
but now I think there s a lot of timidity to it.
6
SPEAKER_00
Some of them are still creative.
6
SPEAKER_00
Obviously, Geico changed the world.
6
SPEAKER_00
There should be some type of award for just like, yeah, that gecko should win thing of the year.
6
SPEAKER_00
Time gecko of the year.
6
SPEAKER_00
I mean, it did.
6
SPEAKER_00
It made everything not about the product,
6
SPEAKER_00
You know, just like removed from it.
6
SPEAKER_02
Well, I think that s my opinion.
6
SPEAKER_02
I probably have an interesting view on this.
6
SPEAKER_02
I love good advertising.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, I respect it.
6
SPEAKER_02
I respect it, yeah, because I m like, if that s, if it s true, obviously if it s true, that s a big part of it, but I love it when someone has thought about the aesthetics and someone has thought about the presentation.
6
SPEAKER_02
Because I can respect that that required a lot of
6
SPEAKER_02
brainpower, right?
6
SPEAKER_02
It required that innate potential.
6
SPEAKER_02
It required some inner potential.
6
SPEAKER_02
They didn t just go, oh yeah, I just turned up.
6
SPEAKER_00
I mean, bro, it s like good advertising.
6
SPEAKER_00
I also respect the
6
SPEAKER_00
Edward Bernays, you know, manipulation of it all.
6
SPEAKER_00
Like, just like, man, you really got me.
6
SPEAKER_00
You really just.
6
SPEAKER_02
But yeah, but there s something, there is fascinating to see who had the ability to shift human behavior.
6
SPEAKER_02
That is fascinating to observe.
6
SPEAKER_02
And I think if we observed that more, I think we wouldn t get as sucked in by it.
6
SPEAKER_01
Right?
6
SPEAKER_02
Like, because what we re saying is we like good advertising, but we know when it s advertising.
6
SPEAKER_02
And so I m not saying I m not susceptible to it, but I m saying that being able to see what s working on me is helpful.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s just that, exactly, that what you re being presented... Okay, this is probably a lot.
6
SPEAKER_00
So two parts.
6
SPEAKER_00
One, I m...
6
SPEAKER_00
perpetually trying to change my mother and test her capacity for change and her ability to question the source.
6
SPEAKER_00
Hey, is religion, as you ve learned it, something that may have been manipulated over time?
6
SPEAKER_00
And like, are all of these things like the divine word of a divine being, or are they influenced by kings and politicians alike over the course of the 2000 years since?
6
SPEAKER_00
Right?
6
SPEAKER_00
So there s always that.
6
SPEAKER_00
And so like, I m
6
SPEAKER_00
probably to a degree that is unhealthy, cynical, and skeptical, and definitely believe conspiracy a lot.
6
SPEAKER_00
But I also think that the belief of conspiracy is dangerous, right?
6
SPEAKER_00
So it s like trying to find middle ground, right?
6
SPEAKER_00
It s just like, because the belief of conspiracy is like,
6
SPEAKER_00
why we know anti-vaxxers, right?
6
SPEAKER_00
Like it s just like, everyone s like, but Tuskegee experiment, but I m like, one that doesn t really make sense.
6
SPEAKER_00
Cause to me, if the government s intention was to control the population, then wouldn t they put the thing in the vaccine that actually saves you and kill everybody else?
6
SPEAKER_00
But that s a conspiracy.
6
SPEAKER_00
That s a wild thing to do.
6
SPEAKER_00
to say too, but like, but like, but like, it s just a rabbit hole of never ending things.
6
SPEAKER_00
So it s, and I get that it s difficult to know truth and news source now, but like, it s trying to find middle ground between like, uh, having a respectable, um, I don t know your own internal checks and balances for where you get your information and where you get the information that dictates your life.
6
SPEAKER_02
And it s hard.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s just playing hard for people, I think, today.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s exhausting.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s exhausting.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s like, where do I go?
6
SPEAKER_02
And I want to be honest and say, there isn t a place to say, hey, go to this website that gives you the best news, because there isn t.
6
SPEAKER_02
And so you re always going to have that.
6
SPEAKER_02
And I wonder how you feel.
6
SPEAKER_02
You ll definitely be less happy.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Like that, that s a thing, like with information, you ll be less happy.
6
SPEAKER_00
But I think we re all less happy anyway, because we re receiving so much information anyway.
6
SPEAKER_00
So you might as well like receive information that forces you to self-examine.
6
SPEAKER_00
Correct.
6
SPEAKER_00
Self-explore.
6
SPEAKER_00
So it s like we re inundated with it anyway.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_02
If you can make time for it, absolutely.
6
SPEAKER_02
And which everyone obviously is.
6
SPEAKER_02
But we make time.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
6
SPEAKER_00
Like we do make time like the busiest person, like, you know, all my friends.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I know that I have like the luxury of not having a day job.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s half a luxury because I do need to be busy to not drive myself crazy.
6
SPEAKER_00
But like, you know, those I know that are like working like 12 hour, 14 hour shifts still find time to like be inundated with information.
6
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
6
SPEAKER_00
Like a lot of it s numbing.
6
SPEAKER_00
And again, it is exhausting, but it does lead to, I think, a healthier life.
6
SPEAKER_00
You know, like self-awareness and being able to question.
6
SPEAKER_00
My mother s fearful of the ground that she s been walking on being moved.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I get that, but you know, not, I just wish it wasn t at the sacrifice of self-exploration.
6
SPEAKER_02
Well, I think that you just hit on something really powerful.
6
SPEAKER_02
Like for a long time, I believed that what people most needed was care and love.
6
SPEAKER_02
And I started to realize that for most people, they weren t searching for that, they re searching for safety.
6
SPEAKER_02
Safety in an ideology, safety in a relationship, safety and security and stability is what people are looking for.
6
SPEAKER_02
And so the challenge with,
6
SPEAKER_02
confidently exploring an emotion or an ideology feels unsafe because it makes you question what you re standing on.
6
SPEAKER_02
Everything, everything.
6
SPEAKER_02
But that requires you to recognize that it s more unsafe to not examine.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yes, but that s a giant leap.
6
SPEAKER_00
That s a giant leap.
6
SPEAKER_00
That s a very, very giant leap.
6
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, it s easier to live under the law of platitudes, you know, and not explore.
6
SPEAKER_02
How do you find as a
6
SPEAKER_02
Obviously, as a comedian, then as an actor, right?
6
SPEAKER_02
And you re directing, you re creating.
6
SPEAKER_02
How does that help you explore the truth differently?
6
SPEAKER_02
Or what is that doing that s different for you personally?
6
SPEAKER_02
Because obviously now we ve literally just been extrapolating how you do this as a comedian and how you do this in your work.
6
SPEAKER_02
But then acting and directing and creating is totally different, right?
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_02
I mean, you ve been playing parts of yourself.
6
SPEAKER_00
I ve been doing that, and I m trying to do less of that.
6
SPEAKER_00
I don t want to be a multi-hyphenate.
6
SPEAKER_00
I m not necessarily chasing that.
6
SPEAKER_00
I do think that I have a skill in multiple things, but I would like to create focused work.
6
SPEAKER_00
Got it.
6
SPEAKER_00
acting and directing my last movie is something that I would never do again.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I m very thankful.
6
SPEAKER_00
I believe we pulled it off and made something that can resonate with people.
6
SPEAKER_00
I would rather focus on one thing.
6
SPEAKER_00
I think that s important.
6
SPEAKER_00
Even like
6
SPEAKER_00
the idea of like EGOT is cool, but I would rather be the best at one of those things.
6
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
6
SPEAKER_00
But they do all have one thing in common and that s like finding truth.
6
SPEAKER_00
And as an actor, I do believe the more I ve explored my emotions and walls, I started doing psychoanalysis a couple of years ago, and it s been very helpful letting me
6
SPEAKER_00
find the thought underneath the thought, and actively get in touch with intention, right?
6
SPEAKER_00
And acting is believing.
6
SPEAKER_00
And it s easier to get in touch with intention, when I ve explored them, you know, and I have more access to different intention now.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
And so I am excited to act more
6
SPEAKER_00
Now, I feel like my whole career is, you know, just been me learning and building up until, and even it will continue to be that, but recently I feel like I ve had more access to the truth and
6
SPEAKER_00
have made like a conscious decision to do that going forward, or at least to try.
6
SPEAKER_00
So I think that would make whatever I m doing better.
6
SPEAKER_00
But yeah, that s like the common thread.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I felt that because even the idea in the movie of like two men making a suicide pact, like that concept.
6
SPEAKER_00
only works if you play it truthfully.
6
SPEAKER_00
People were afraid of that movie.
6
SPEAKER_00
On the count of three was very hard to get financed.
6
SPEAKER_00
Nobody wanted to do it.
6
SPEAKER_00
You know, very luckily found two.
6
SPEAKER_00
What was the reason that people don t like making movies?
6
SPEAKER_00
Well, one, because with comedy, it s with the assumption that it isn t truthful and that it will be made fun of and just dismissed and made light of.
6
SPEAKER_00
Right.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I
6
SPEAKER_00
like my show, and I ve always believed that you can find a lot of humor while taking things seriously.
6
SPEAKER_00
And to me, that s the best humor.
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My favorite movies, even the movies I think are the funniest, like watching a Coen brothers movie, or Safdie brothers movie, or even directors who don t have a brother.
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They re funny because it s so real, it s hyper real.
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That s my taste and my sense of humor.
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To me, Count of Three is like, because of the stakes of it being your last day on earth, it s actually aspirational in a way, you know, that allows itself to be very, very
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very, very funny because it s like, you know, it s sincere.
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They really think this is the end.
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These two characters, Kevin and Val really believe that.
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And we take seriously the reasons they re there.
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And it just makes a
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a product that keeps my attention.
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I think people have respected it and respect the film more because it takes depression seriously.
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It takes treatment of it seriously.
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And it takes seeing suicide as a resolution seriously.
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And we weren t afraid to treat the audience like the, you know, if you ve experienced this, if you ve had these thoughts, like,
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One, you know, I do believe that it can be triggering.
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So it is important to know yourself when going into it.
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But I do think people who have and I ve now been able to talk to people and read things that people have written about going through depression, having suicidal ideations and even attempts and connecting with the film in a way that they didn t expect because it was truthful.
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You know, and that was important and laughing at it because it was truthful.
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Yeah.
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And so.
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you know, that s always the gamble I m willing to take, that like being truthful, treating my audience as adults will pay off.
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Yeah, yeah, it was hard.
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It was really hard.
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It cost me a lot of my own money.
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I went broke making the movie.
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You know what I mean?
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It was really, really hard, but really worth it.
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Even just as an artistic statement of fearlessness to explore, it was worth it.
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I mean, you know, just I d seen your work and I think when you sit down with someone and this is why I do the podcast, it s like to really hear about why they do it.
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And then you get a deeper appreciation of what someone does when you know why they do it and how they think about it and how far they go off the edge to do it.
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I just find you really inspiring in a different way than I d usually imagine with comedy, because it s not just entertainment, it s not just galvanizing a crowd, it s not holding attention, it s like the ability to encourage us all to move in the direction of our fears.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And you re doing that, whether you re saying that or not, that s what I feel encouraged to do through your work.
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Oh, I really appreciate you saying that.
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My friend Beau always says that, like, it s more the access to fearlessness, right?
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And like, I m trying to make things that report on these moments where I gain access to, like, it s, yeah, it s almost like journalism.
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It s really, yeah, it s really powerful.
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It s super powerful.
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I mean, I feel moved by it personally because it helps me think about
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how if that s your intention behind the work you re doing, that s the same as any other.
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If someone has the intention of improving people s lives, that s exactly what that s doing simply by that shift because
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Yeah, whatever we re scared of is holding us back in so many ways.
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And, you know, that s a basic thing we all know, but it s very rarely explored in content as the sole intention.
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Like it s, you know what I mean?
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People are thinking, how do we make this make money?
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Or how do we make this make people laugh?
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Or how do we make that?
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And those are all like beginnings and ends.
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They re not a deep, profound intention.
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Yeah, it s the thing that most has my attention.
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All right, there s a monster under the bed.
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Okay, well, I could sit here, I could eat popcorn, I could watch TV, I could think about anything else.
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Everything in my life is about this monster.
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Like until I look and I want to make art about looking.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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I love that.
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I love that.
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Gerard, it s been so awesome talking to you.
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This is great.
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Thank you for taking the time.
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I mean, I m genuinely like, this has been one of the most fun conversations I ve had in a long time.
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And it s because the reason why I do this for myself is I love sitting down with people where I don t know where things are going.
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Like, I don t know where the conversation is going to go.
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Yeah, yeah, it s fun.
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And that s what I enjoy so much because
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I was like, I just want to get to know this fascinating human.
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I like talking to you.
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And yeah, no, it feels free, associative and therapeutic.
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So I really appreciate you and you have beautiful eyes.
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That s what it does.
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They re almost too powerful.
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I had to look away a couple of times.
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I love it.
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I love the sound of your voice.
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I can listen to your voice all day.
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So we ve got equal appreciation.
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I was like, wow, his voice is just so nice to listen to.
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We re going to collab on an ASMR channel.
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I m in.
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I m in.
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Except my eyes don t help that much.
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People will gaze and I ll read.
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I m in, you let me know.
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But Gerard, we end every episode with a final five.
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This is a fast five.
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So the questions have to be answered in one word or one sentence maximum.
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Wow.
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So one word to one sentence.
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Okay.
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All right.
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The first question is what is the best advice you ve ever received?
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Don t take advice.
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What is the worst advice you ve ever received?
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Listen to him.
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I love it.
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Uh, question number three, I think we already answered this through the podcast, but I always liked, uh, how would you describe your current purpose with what you re doing?
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Find truth.
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Love that.
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Uh, question number four is what is something that you used to value that you don t value anymore?
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Privacy.
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Hmm.
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Why did, I m going to go off piece for a second.
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That s a really interesting answer.
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Uh, you didn t use to value privacy before.
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What made you start to value it?
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Like,
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I realized that a lot of the things that I wanted to be private were because I was ashamed of them.
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So I realized that a lot of, like, people will share anything.
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And quickly, I ll tell a quick story about like my father that kind of represents this thought.
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Like my father called me and asked me one day, like, if I was doing standup again, and he was like, so you re going to make another special?
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And I was like, yeah, why?
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He was like, you re going to talk about me in it?
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I was like, why, why, why?
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And he said, because you re mean and it hurts my feelings.
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And I was like, why?
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Like, what, how am I mean?
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And he was like, you know, you put our business out there.
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Like you talk about family business.
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I talk about like his, you know, the kids that he s had that were a secret for many years and my sexuality.
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And, and like, and I m like, one, you had all these kids, like,
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You made it public, like you had children, like you made it public.
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You call it that, you call it putting our business out there because you re ashamed of it.
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My father, this is a man who will talk to any stranger who will listen in an IHOP lobby about like his open heart surgery.
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And like any private, personal, like talk about his medical history.
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Would anybody will tell everyone his son has a television show and his home address.
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And like, but this is private.
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It s like, no, this is shameful.
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Like this is something you haven t contended with.
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Like just thinking about what privacy means, right?
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What I find fascinating about that is how does your, I m going totally, this is not a fast five now, we ll get to the fifth one last, but
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How do you find that as someone who s had to go through their shame, go through that, uncover it, how do you extend that same process to your father and mother and other people you meet?
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Because now you know how hard it is to do that.
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And when you see their resistance and reluctance to do it, how does that change how you feel about them with their shame?
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It s hard to be around.
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It s hard to be around.
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And I realize that in some ways extreme and in some ways it s a luxury to be able to like,
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not talk to certain people in my life, because there are kids who feel that way around their parents.
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And I wouldn t suggest that they run away from home.
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You know what I mean?
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So there are people who have jobs and reasons that it is, they can t be fully truthful.
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And I do respect that.
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But it s hard for me
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So again, the monster under the bed, if there s one thing that is hard to talk about, then it s hard for me to talk about anything.
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And so right now, as my family, my mother and my father come to terms with me being gay, it s difficult to talk to them because we can talk about everything else.
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They watch my special and to me, the most...
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like the part that aches is the part of like me talking about coming out and my struggles to be with them.
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And that was the part on the first phone call and even still like they didn t even acknowledge.
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They went like, oh, I know you went through a lot carrying your father s secrets and that type of thing, but they didn t talk about
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that because they don t want to.
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And we can, and I could have a very pleasant relationship with them.
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And that would just feel excruciating to me right now, right now.
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And maybe I ll, I don t know if I ll become numb or become calloused.
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And I always pray that I don t become bitter, you know.
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But it s hard, it s hard to extend, because you can t extend, you can t make everyone truthful or say the things that you want them to say.
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But I am, you know, trying to control the relationships I have based on my ability
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to be truthful with you.
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And I love that you re giving yourself the permission to do that because I think that is the step process towards
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whatever evolution it goes on, it s like when we don t give ourselves permission to be in the uncomfortable of like, well, I can t talk about this or I can t talk about anything else.
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We re like, no, I don t want to be that because that makes me a bad person.
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Right.
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We have shame around that.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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No, permission is a good, it s a great word.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Otherwise you just live in the cycle.
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It s easy to stay in that jail.
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Yeah.
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And you feel a bitterness internally.
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Yes.
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Because you never freed yourself.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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You stayed.
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Yeah.
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All right, fifth and final question of the whole interview is, if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?
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I do believe that do unto others stands.
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You know, I think that s probably the, it s the golden rule and whatever, but like,
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If that were somehow law, do unto others as you would have done unto you.
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From seeing the divinity in people to being truthful with people, like the things that you want, you know, I think you would give more, at least, you know.
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Gerard Carmichael, everyone.
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I hope this is the first of many times we get to hang out.
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Yeah, we should talk more.
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I feel like there s still, like, pockets that we gotta... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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This is the first of many.
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This is the first of many.
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There s so many more pockets, and it s always nice getting to lay the land of someone s foundational thinking and then get to learn more.
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But thank you so much for doing this.
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Any last messages, anything you want to share?
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No, no, no.
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This has been great.
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For everyone who s been listening and watching back at home, or whether you re in the car, or whether you re at work, wherever you are,
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Make sure you share what you learned, what you took away, any insights that resonated with you.
8
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I think, for me, I m being called to think about how I can be pulled to release any shame I have, how I can have more open conversations with my friends about any guilt that I m holding onto, how I can use art to move towards my fears as opposed to away from them.
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I think a lot of us think of art as an escape from our fears when actually they can be an exploration, as Gerard said today.
8
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I thank Gerard for joining us today.
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Thank you all.
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I hope you share this episode with someone who needs it.
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But thank you for listening, everyone.
8
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Thank you so much.
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SPEAKER_00
Thank you.
8
SPEAKER_00
Thank you.
8
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If you love this episode, you re going to love my conversation with Matthew Hussey on how to get over your ex and find true love in your relationships.
8
SPEAKER_04
People should be compassionate to themselves, but extend that compassion to your future self, because
8
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truly extending your compassion to your future self is doing something that gives him or her a shot at a happy and a peaceful life.
8
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Guess what, Will?
8
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What s that, Mango?
8
SPEAKER_03
I ve been trying to write a promo for our podcast, Part-Time Genius, but even though we ve done over 250 episodes, we don t really talk about murders or cults.
8
SPEAKER_02
I mean, we did just cover the Illuminati of cheese, so I feel like that makes us pretty edgy.
8
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We also solve mysteries like how Chinese is your Chinese food and how do dollar stores make money?
8
SPEAKER_02
And then, of course, can you game a dog show?
8
SPEAKER_02
So what you re saying is everyone should be listening.
8
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Listen to Part-Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.