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Coming up next on Passion Struck.
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A lot of times people will be like, you flew for the Thunderbirds, the best pilots in the whole Air Force.
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Of course, we like to be called that, but it s not necessarily true.
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You re not always hiring the best hands on pilot.
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There s like a certain level of proficiency that you, of course, have to have an aptitude to learn the maneuvers.
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But so much of it comes down to how you will fit into that team dynamic.
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We re on the road 240 days a year.
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So you are with those people far more than you re with your family.
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You are in those situations where you have to trust your life in their hands on a daily basis.
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You can t have personality conflicts that are creating like poison in the well that are just spreading through the organization.
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That can be the most catastrophic thing.
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to flying a safe demonstration and a good demonstration.
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So a ton of weight is put on creating the best team dynamic.
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Welcome to Passion Struck.
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Hi, I m your host, Jon R. Miles.
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And on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips and guidance of the world s most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you.
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Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself.
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If you re new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays.
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We have long form interviews the rest of the week with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes.
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Now let s go out there and become passion struck.
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Hello, everyone, and welcome back to episode 368 of Passion Struck, consistently ranked by Apple as one of the top 10 most popular health podcasts and the number one alternative health podcast.
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Thank you to each and every one of you who come back weekly to listen and learn how to live better, be better, and impact the world.
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If you re new to the show, thank you so much for being here.
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Or you simply want to introduce this to a friend or a family member, and we sure love it when you do that.
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We now have Episode Starter Packs, which are collections of our fans  favorite episodes that we organize into convenient topics that give any new listener a great way to get acclimated to everything we do here on the show.
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Either go to Spotify or PassionInstruct.com slash Starter Packs to get started.
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And in case you missed it earlier in the week, I had two great interviews.
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The first was with Dr. Vanessa Bonds, a social psychologist and professor of organizational behavior at Cornell University s ILR School.
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Dr. Bonds is the author of the eye-opening book, You Have More Influence Than You Think, where she draws from her original research to shed light on the power dynamics of consent and influence.
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I also interviewed Rusty Shelton, a best-selling author, dynamic keynote speaker, and successful entrepreneur who s focused his career on helping leaders build thought leadership focused on impact, not ego, writing three acclaimed books and speaking around the world to a variety of audiences from South by Southwest Interactive to Forbes.
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We discuss his latest book, The Authority Advantage, building thought leadership focused on impact
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not ego.
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I also wanted to say thank you for your ratings and reviews, and if you loved today s episode or either of those others, we would appreciate you giving it a 5-star review and sharing it with your friends and families.
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I know we and our guests love to see comments from our listeners, and those reviews go such a long way in helping us build out the Passion Star community.
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Today, we have the privilege of diving into the incredible journey of a true beacon of inspiration, Michelle Mace Curran.
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As a combat veteran and former F-16 fighter pilot, Michelle s story is a testament
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to the unwavering spirit of perseverance and determination.
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Michelle Curran, or Mace, once commanded the skies as Thunderbird No.
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6 s get-posing solo before becoming the lead solo No.
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5 in the 2020-21 airshow season.
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Even amidst a global pandemic that disrupted airshow schedules,
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impact on the Thunderbirds team was immeasurable.
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Through her social media contributions and captivating in-cockpit videos, she kept the Thunderbirds  relevance alive for the public audience feet in itself.
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Now, she is soaring to new heights, the founder of Upside Down Dreams, a platform that empowers others to overcome hardships and realize their dreams.
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Michelle s experiences underscore the power of pushing through obstacles, emphasizing that success is just one step beyond the challenges we face.
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Her journey is a remarkable example of grace and achievement and a shining role model for anyone with aspirations.
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We all grapple with self-doubt and imposter syndrome, and Michelle s journey from grappling with crippling fears to performing heart-pounding maneuvers at 500 mph serves as a beacon of hope.
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Her story ignites the courage to embrace discomfort, to relinquish fear, and to make bold choices.
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So get ready to soar to new heights with us as we delve into the story of Michelle Mace Curran, true embodiment of conquering fear and embracing
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the unknown.
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Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life now.
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Let that journey begin.
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I am so excited today to welcome Michelle Curran, callsign Mace, to PassionStruck.
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Welcome, Michelle.
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Thanks for having me.
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I m excited for our conversation.
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Well, I love doing these episodes, but I especially like to bring fellow veterans on.
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And I think that s the best starting point to give the audience a good introduction into who you are is what led you down the path of wanting to join the military?
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So I think it s a different story than what people expect.
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Well, I was flying for the Thunderbirds, which I guess we let the cat out of the bag.
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I eventually did.
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People often assume that I had gone to air shows as a kid, seen jets fly and decided, this is something I want to do.
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Let s figure out how to get there.
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But I grew up in a really small town in Northern Wisconsin, not an aviation family and not a military family.
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So I just didn t have a lot of exposure to any of that growing up.
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I had my grandpa on my dad s side, was in World War II.
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He was a lieutenant in the Navy and he had passed away when I was really young, so I don t have any memories of him.
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But people in the family would always tell stories about him and how funny he was and how adventurous he was.
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And so I kind of had this probably inaccurate rose colored glasses view of him in my head because I m only hearing his life from their fond stories.
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But that kind of led me to look at him as a role model and I would pull out his Navy trunk that had Lieutenant Curran stamped on the end of it.
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And I would take out his uniforms and I would try them on and I would look at all his pictures from the Pacific and all his letters he had written to my grandma.
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And I just remember looking at it as kind of like this
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adventurous career option.
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But I hadn t decided at that point as a younger kid that it was something I for sure wanted to do.
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That didn t happen until I was about halfway through high school.
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My parents were like, hey, we know you have really good grades, but we do not have a college fund for you.
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So let s look at ways to pay for your education.
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And we looked at all these different scholarships, Air Force ROTC eventually filtered to the top.
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Again, that idea of traveling the world, doing something challenging and exciting really appealed to me.
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And so I ended up getting a scholarship and I was off to the races.
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So I wish it was, I had this feeling like I had this obligation or this duty to serve my country, but honestly, for me, initially it was, how am I going to pay for college?
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And the rest kind of came later.
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So you went from that, and I understand that similar to me, you were thinking about going to a three-letter agency eventually.
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I got out of the military, in fact, to accept an appointment with the FBI.
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What drew you from that as your end goal to this path then of becoming a fighter pilot?
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So I went to college as a criminal justice major because exactly the reason you mentioned, I wanted to be an FBI agent.
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So I had this grand plan as a 16, 17-year-old that I was going to go to school on an ROTC scholarship, be a criminal justice major, give back the four years on active duty, probably with OSI, with special investigations on the military side.
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and then apply to the FBI.
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But halfway through college, we visited a base.
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It was actually Tyndall Air Force Base in Florida.
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And I saw two fighter jets up close for the first time.
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So there were two F-15s taking off in full afterburner.
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And I just remember that being kind of a pivotal, life-changing experience for me.
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I got goosebumps.
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You feel the jet noise vibrating your whole body.
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And it was kind of just this jaw-dropping moment where I was like, how do I go
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do that.
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And it was exciting enough that I decided to make a goal pivot from the FBI to figuring out how I could be a fighter pilot.
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And then you end up going to flight school and something that a lot of people don t realize is when you go to flight school, being a fighter pilot is not guaranteed.
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And so it has a lot to do with how well you do in flight school and a number of other things.
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I know some people probably don t want the life of a fighter pilot, but can you unpack that a little bit?
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For sure.
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So I think the mentality I went in with was almost like fighter pilot or bus, which I don t recommend for other people that I talk to who are asking about how they could follow a similar path because the odds are not in your favor.
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That s just math.
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It s statistically, you re not going to get a fighter jet.
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It s possible, obviously.
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But for me, we had 25 students in my class.
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Two of us got fighter aircraft.
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As you mentioned, not everyone wants to be a fighter pilot.
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The lifestyle thing you said, some people want to fly heavies like cargo aircraft or tank aircraft because they want to set themselves up for a natural transition into the airlines eventually.
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Some people get airsick, so they don t want to be going upside down and pulling Gs.
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But the class gets divided into different tracks, those who are pursuing fighter and bomber aircraft and those who are pursuing heavy aircraft.
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And so seven of us went into that fighter bomber track.
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So at the end of the year long undergraduate pilot training, that s the number of people that were eligible for a fighter aircraft.
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And we ended up only getting two.
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So over half, two thirds of that group did not end up going to fly a fighter jet when it was all said and done.
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So it is very competitive.
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Yeah, I was kind of rolling the dice and I would just put in as much work as I possibly could and it ended up working out.
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Okay.
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And then there are different fighters that perform different missions.
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I know the Air Force is now unfortunately phasing out the A-10, which I think was one of the best planes ever created.
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I think your husband might think that too, but there s also the F-15, as we talked about, the F-16 and the new generation of fighters now.
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What specific role was the F-16 designed to perform?
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So the F-16 is kind of unique.
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It s very multi-role.
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So we kind of dabble in everything.
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A jack-of-all-trades is what the jets often referred to.
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Air-to-ground definitely was a primary mission.
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Close air support in places like Afghanistan, the F-16 is good at that.
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You mentioned the A-10, that s like their primary mission.
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So they re very good at it.
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We also can do air-to-air, dogfighting, long-range air-to-air type stuff.
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The F-16 is just really widely proliferated throughout the U.S.
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Air Force as well as a ton of other countries because it s so good at so many different things, which is one of the things that drew me to it, along with the fact that, you know, I thought back when I was thinking about my dream sheet where you rank all the aircraft that you would want to fly, turns out it s really not up to you.
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It s what the Air Force has available.
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But I went back and forth between A-10s and F-16s because the close air support mission where you re talking to
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American troops on the ground.
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You re the one that can come in and change the way the fight is going, and you can save lives.
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It s a very rewarding but challenging mission, and I thought that that would be a really cool primary focus to have.
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So that drew me to the A-10.
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But I ultimately put F-16s first because we still do that mission, but we also have an afterburner.
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We can pull Gs.
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We can fly upside down.
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And I thought back to that inspirational moment of watching those two jets take off.
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that afterburner flame coming out the back of the jets was one of the things that really made me excited about going after that goal.
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And so I ended up putting Vipers, which is what we call the F-16, as my first choice.
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Yeah, I wanted to spend a little bit of time talking about first duty stations because you and I both went overseas for our first ones.
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I happened to go to Rota Spain and you ended up going to Japan.
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But in my situation, it was as if I got a lot of first duty stations because I was what was called a direct support officer.
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And so although I was stationed in Spain, I would go on short to medium length
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deployments and so all the time I was deploying to a new ship or submarine or whatever.
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And it s always hard when you join any of these new units, but especially when it s your first one.
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Can you tell me a little bit about that tour of duty in Japan and why it became a significant part of your growth journey?
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Yeah.
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So I was just thinking about what that would have been like for me going through kind of the career trajectory you went through, because you re young in a new challenging career and there s battle to kind of find your footing and learn your new trade, which coming into flying F-16s, especially in Japan with the mission there and just the geographical location and all the different things we needed to focus on was very, very challenging.
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And for the first time,
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All through training, I had different points where I struggled a little bit here and there, but I could always get my arms around it if I studied enough.
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I put in enough work.
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I worked with other people in little groups to study stuff and I was like, okay, I eventually get this concept.
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And I felt like I had learned so much over the last three or four years going through all the training programs.
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And then I get to Masawa, to Japan, and I realized I know nothing.
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I can fly the airplane well, but that is just such a tiny piece of actually being a fighter pilot, the tactics and all the technical information.
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And then you add on understanding enemy systems and the technical side of all of their sensors and their surface air missiles and all these things.
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And I just felt like I was drowning in the amount of stuff that I needed to learn.
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And I think that was the first point where I was also like, maybe being a criminal justice major wasn t really very helpful for flying fighter jets, because a lot of my peers were engineering degrees or physics or anything that gave them at least a leg up on one part of the topics that we were learning, where I felt like everything I was having to learn from the ground up
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And then you layer that in with just being new to a unit and trying to find how you fit into the culture and kind of how you will establish your reputation.
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And especially in fighter squadrons where they re very tight-knit,
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And although there s a lot of F-16s in the Air Force, the community is fairly small, and you re pretty much told right away, like, hey, your reputation will follow you from base to base.
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So you don t want to be a jerk when you re a lieutenant, because it s going to follow you for the rest of your career.
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So there s a lot of pressure to kind of find your footing.
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And then you add on the complexity of gender, being one of two women in a squadron of almost 50 pilots.
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And I think it adds on this additional
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feeling of kind of scrutiny and stress of the Air Force was kind of going through a cultural shift when I first got to Japan, where they were getting away from some of the fighter pilot traditions that were a little bit more edgy and not as politically correct.
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Some of them were things that now if people knew about, they d be like, I can t believe that went on in a professional setting.
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The Air Force was intentionally trying to change that a little bit.
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And being a woman during that time was an interesting time.
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And all the guys in my unit were great.
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I was friends with them.
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But there still felt like a responsibility where if someone said something that was a little bit borderline inappropriate, the conversation would come to a screeching halt and every head in the room would turn and look at me to see what my reaction would be.
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And I m, what, 24, 25 years old.
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at this point, just trying to figure out how to be a fighter pilot.
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And I did not want the added responsibility of deciding what was culturally acceptable for this entire unit.
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And that s the commander s job, not me as the brand new lieutenant.
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And I also felt the responsibility, like whatever I did put up with, was establishing whoever the next woman was to follow in my footsteps, what she would have to put up with.
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And so you kind of create these added responsibilities and burdens for yourself.
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And I ve talked to so many women who have been in similar roles to me, and they all say the same thing.
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And it really doesn t even come from the other people in the unit.
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A lot of it comes from just this own kind of spotlight effect that you put on yourself.
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All of that combined made for a really difficult assignment for me.
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I often felt like I somehow had snuck into the wrong career field and I actually wasn t good enough to be there.
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There were a couple of points where I had some bad flights.
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I also went through some personal stuff while I was there.
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I went through a divorce, which is hard no matter when or where it happens.
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add that on to an already difficult time in my life professionally and being on the other side of the planet from all of my family.
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And it was really, really hard.
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And it just made me question everything.
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There was a lot of times feeling like I was failing for the first time ever.
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And it kind of just shook my whole identity a little bit.
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So it was tough.
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But on the backside of that, there came a really rapid growth period
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that kind of catapulted me forward professionally and personally.
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And I don t think that that would have happened to that degree had I not gone through those struggles.
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It is definitely those struggles that create such a pathway to growth and I guess resilience in our lives.
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So I m glad you shared that story.
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And I m just going to tell you a little bit of my story.
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So my first deployment, I d been in Rota just a couple months and
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They send me out to a destroyer called the Comte Gras.
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And I didn t know much about this ship and before getting on board, I just had heard that it was showing up to the deployment late.
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I ended up getting on board and a couple of my Naval Academy classmates were actually stationed aboard the ship.
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And I could tell immediately upon running into them, one who I knew quite well, that something was definitely not right.
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And it turned out that the ship had suffered the first sabotage to a warship, I think in over a hundred years.
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A petty officer had decided it would be a great idea to put two by fours into the reduction gears.
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And so it caused all kinds of issues.
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And in fact, after our deployment, they mothballed the ship because it had so much cavitation.
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sitting duck for submarines.
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But when I got on board, here I am in Ensign going on my first ship.
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And within the first week, the engineering officer was fired.
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About three weeks later, the XO was fired.
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Then eventually the commanding officer was fired.
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And I ve never been anywhere in my life where the morale was so bad as it was at that point.
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And so like you, I, I m sitting there going, never look at me, never prepared
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for this situation, especially when you re that junior an officer and yet your responsibility is to provide, in my case, all intelligence support for the ship, as well as support from the National Security Agency.
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And so it was really an interesting three months for me to live in that environment.
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And I was so thankful I could get off the ship.
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Unfortunately, my friends could not, but it really did teach me a lot of things.
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Yeah, it s tough to come into a unit that already has all these things happening, right?
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There s already interpersonal relationships, good or bad.
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There s already rapport established.
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There can already be drama going on you don t know about.
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There can be things that have happened a few months before you show up.
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And all of that becomes part of the culture of the squadron.
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And when you show up, you re trying to step into that a lot of times without knowing like what has happened.
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because I think units when something negative happens, they kind of tighten the ranks, they close it down, they don t want like word to get out to everyone.
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And so sometimes you ll show up and you ll be like, why is this so weird here?
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Like, and then you ll start to hear through rumor mill and it can be tough to navigate.
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And I don t think there s any sort of training that can really prepare you for that.
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And I think it can really be mitigated by some really strong leadership at the top when stuff like that does start to happen where they re able to kind of set the tone and
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establish a way forward and give people some security instead of all that uncertainty.
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But not every commander is good at doing that and it can be a lot to step into.
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Absolutely.
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Well, I know another thing that was at least challenging for me, and I d like to hear your viewpoint on it, is when I went to Spain, I had this naive notion, and I lived off base, that I was going to be fully immersed in the culture, it was going to be so easy, etc.
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And where I lived in southern Spain, practically none of the Spaniards spoke English.
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And so I was thrust into the situation where I m in town, I can t really communicate.
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And so I was taking Spanish lessons, trying to get up to speed as fast as I could.
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Yet I m deploying all the time.
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So every time I m learning something, I m forgetting it, and then having to relearn it again.
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And I ve been to Japan probably 20 times.
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And it is such a different culture from what we re used to in the States.
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Did you experience that as well?
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Absolutely.
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And I like, at least with Spanish, I think if that had been my situation, I m like learn enough basic phrases to get by.
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Japanese was a whole other battle just with the language being so different from English.
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It was a challenge.
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And I think it was kind of twofold.
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You don t really have a community outside of the community you have in the military, which can be great in some ways.
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You get really close with the people in your unit.
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Your families are all friends.
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You spend holidays together.
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SPEAKER_00
It becomes your second family.
2
SPEAKER_00
But if you re struggling and find yourself in a situation like I did with my divorce and the professional things going on, I needed some separation from that.
2
SPEAKER_00
I needed any sort of work-life balance, and there just was none because they were one in the same.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so your entire community were my neighbors, were my squadron mates.
2
SPEAKER_00
That was tough.
2
SPEAKER_00
I just wanted to get away from that environment a little bit, and there was no reprieve.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then, yeah, I lived on base, so it was even more extreme.
2
SPEAKER_00
But when you are in the local community,
2
SPEAKER_00
Some of it is just really cool because you re learning all of these new things.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re seeing all this incredible stuff.
2
SPEAKER_00
Even something as simple as going to the grocery store in Japan can feel like an adventure, but it is a little bit weird, feeling a little uneasy feeling when you re traveling around and you can t understand anything.
2
SPEAKER_00
You can t read the signs.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re trying to stumble your way through things.
2
SPEAKER_00
And same in Misawa, English was not widely spoken there.
2
SPEAKER_00
So if you got down to Tokyo, there was always someone who spoke English who could help you.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like if you looked lost in the train station, some very nice Japanese person that spoke English would come up and start talking to you.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it was awesome.
2
SPEAKER_00
That just didn t happen up north in Misawa.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so there was a lot of
2
SPEAKER_00
kind of just figuring things out.
2
SPEAKER_00
And while it felt a little uncertain while I was doing it, living there for three years did give me a lot of confidence to travel internationally to places where I don t speak the language and know that it s going to be okay and that you can figure things out.
2
SPEAKER_00
You can ask someone, you can do pointy talky, you know, where you just point at things.
2
SPEAKER_00
You can use your cell phone now with Google Translate and you can have a pretty amazing experience traveling somewhere where you don t speak the language, even though it feels kind of scary when you first get there.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I remember when we got to pick our designations, when I was a firstie at the Academy, I had a choice of going to Rhoda, Massawa, or the remote area in Australia.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I m like, I m not going into the middle of the desert in Australia.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then I started thinking about Massawa in the five seconds you ve got to make this choice.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I m like, Rhoda just seems like the best out of those three options.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, for sure.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think a lot of people do love Masala.
2
SPEAKER_00
People that have small kids really love it there because it s so safe.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like the kids on base could just roam freely with no worries of where they were at or if they were safe or like crime is so low there, but I think Europe.
2
SPEAKER_00
Assignments in the same in the air force are always at the top of everyone s lists.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like we have a sixteens in Germany and in Italy and everyone is itching to get to those locations.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, one of the things I always like to hear when I talk to my friends who are pilots is how they got their call sign.
2
SPEAKER_01
How did you get MACE?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so I always get asked this question, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
And so for the listeners, I don t know.
2
SPEAKER_00
Fighter pilot call signs generally sound kind of cool, at least in the Air Force.
2
SPEAKER_00
I ve noticed that Navy fighter pilot call signs, I think they have less of a standard of making them sound cool because I ve met some interesting
2
SPEAKER_00
I met some pilots with interesting call signs like booger or teabag or hog sweat.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I was just like, you wouldn t get those names in the Air Force.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I think the threshold s a little bit different by service.
2
SPEAKER_00
But for us, they re generally based on something dumb that you did, a mistake you made as a young pilot early in your career.
2
SPEAKER_00
So we get named
2
SPEAKER_00
once we re done with mission qualification training.
2
SPEAKER_00
So you ve usually been at your first combat squadron for maybe like four months or so at that point.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s kind of like this rite of passage.
2
SPEAKER_00
At the end of that, you re a fully qualified combat wingman.
2
SPEAKER_00
You could deploy the next day and go do the mission.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then you also get to get named.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I remember being very nervous before my naming because I realized that it was going to follow me for my whole career and it was going to kind of become part of my identity.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I like to save a little bit of mystery there because we traditionally in the Air Force at least only tell our full call sign story in person over a beverage, which I m sure is a ploy for people to get free beer.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I always give like a general kind of 30,000 foot view for me.
2
SPEAKER_00
It was a dogfighting situation, only my second flight in Japan, and I went supersonic when I shouldn t have.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s some considerations with temperature and jet engines and how they perform, and I had learned to fly the F-16 in Phoenix, Arizona, where it was very hot.
2
SPEAKER_00
Turns out it performs slightly different in December in northern Japan, where they get 200 inches of snow per year.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I went supersonic.
2
SPEAKER_00
I pulled
2
SPEAKER_00
a lot of G s for a long time, nine G s for almost a full 360 degree turn, which is not tactically what you want to do.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s not physically what you want to put your body through.
2
SPEAKER_00
I almost G-locked and
2
SPEAKER_00
Honestly, at the time, it was a pretty serious situation for me because I know other pilots who have crashed and died because of that exact kind of thing happening.
2
SPEAKER_00
You G-lock, you re unconscious, you re the only pilot in the aircraft.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now no one s controlling the jet.
2
SPEAKER_00
It usually happens at high speed.
2
SPEAKER_00
Sometimes it happens when you re in an attitude already pointed towards the ground, and there s not a lot of margin there for time to recover and recover the aircraft.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so it s a serious thing we re warned about constantly.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that was definitely the closest I had ever gotten.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I walked away from that flight.
2
SPEAKER_00
That was what started that spiral of, oh, I m actually not good enough to be here.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m not going to survive in this community.
2
SPEAKER_00
How did I get here?
2
SPEAKER_00
What s happening?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so I always save the exact meaning of M.A.C.E.
2
SPEAKER_00
because it s an acronym for in-person and people will stop me in the airport if I see them and they recognize me, they ll stop and ask.
2
SPEAKER_00
I ve told the story many times in an airport.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, or in keynote presentations when I m presenting to people in person, I will tell the whole detailed story.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I know that s a little bit of a teaser, but that s what you get.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, I m not sure if you know her, but I recently had a fellow Air Force officer on the show who s also a fighter pilot, Kim Campbell.
2
SPEAKER_01
And she flew A-10s.
2
SPEAKER_01
And her call sign is KC.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I m like, what a cool call sign.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s your first and last name.
2
SPEAKER_01
And she goes, no, it s Killer Chick.
2
SPEAKER_01
I had another fighter pilot on the show about a year ago, my friend Keegan Gill.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m not sure if you re familiar with them.
2
SPEAKER_01
His callsign is Smurf, but you talk about the maneuver that you were just doing.
2
SPEAKER_01
He was dogfighting his commanding officer in a Super Hornet and came out of a maneuver and he thought that the aircraft
2
SPEAKER_01
was going to do one thing, and the F-18, unbeknownst to him and many pilots, has a self-limitator that it puts on the aircraft.
2
SPEAKER_01
So if they re pulling Gs that could potentially damage the airframe, it will not allow the airframe to do it.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so he comes
3
SPEAKER_01
out of this maneuver with a dead stick, unable to do anything and ends up going in a direct dive towards the ocean and ejects doing just under Mach 1 about 400 feet above the ocean and somehow survives.
3
SPEAKER_01
So that s another great episode if
3
SPEAKER_01
You want to hear about how he managed to escape from that circumstance, but I can only imagine how at that rate of speed, whether it s in an F-16 or an F-18, either one of your situations, you only have so many seconds to react before, you know, you either pull out of it or some major ramification happens.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, absolutely.
3
SPEAKER_00
And ejecting is no joke.
3
SPEAKER_00
I think a lot of people are like, oh, you have this catch-all fail safe.
3
SPEAKER_00
You have an ejection seat.
3
SPEAKER_00
So if something goes wrong, it s fine.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, ejecting at high speed, like you re talking about in his situation, I m sure he had a lot of injuries coming out of that.
3
SPEAKER_00
People will break their backs.
3
SPEAKER_00
They ll dislocate shoulders.
3
SPEAKER_00
You get flailing injuries to your legs.
3
SPEAKER_00
People die from ejections, even though everything went as planned as far as how the seat works and the parachute works.
3
SPEAKER_00
So it s a serious business.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s not something that any of us ever want to have to do.
3
SPEAKER_00
It is there.
3
SPEAKER_00
And there s been a lot of people that have successfully ejected and gone on to continue flying eventually, but it s a scary prospect and no one ever wants to pull that handle.
3
SPEAKER_01
No, unfortunately he still has ramifications because when he did go in at that speed, he had compound fractures and multiple body parts, traumatic brain injury, and when he woke up three weeks later coming out of a coma, I think the ramifications fully set in.
3
SPEAKER_01
So he did go back and fly for a little bit, but unfortunately, he eventually got medically disqualified and retired from the service because of his injuries.
3
SPEAKER_01
So it makes you really realize the perils of flying one of these high-performance aircraft.
3
SPEAKER_01
Which leads me to, from there, speaking of instructing, you go on to Texas as a flight instructor to then training Polish F-16 pilots.
3
SPEAKER_01
Your journey took another global spin.
3
SPEAKER_01
Could you take us inside this whirlwind experience and what insights did this cross-cultural endeavor gift you, both as a pilot and a human being?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
So that was kind of on the tail end of going through this really low point in Japan, moving to my next space and realizing that this wasn t just going to fix itself.
3
SPEAKER_00
I needed to be intentional with pushing myself to climb out of the low point I was at.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I started to take a lot of
3
SPEAKER_00
uncomfortable calculated risks in small forms.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I did that in my personal life with some hobbies and stuff I got into with outdoor stuff and some international travel that I did.
3
SPEAKER_00
And slowly that started to give me more confidence in the cockpit as well.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I became an instructor, like you mentioned.
3
SPEAKER_00
I got to deploy Afghanistan, which going through a successful deployment, there s a lot of uncertainty when you re young and you haven t done that yet.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it does give you a confidence boost going through it and coming home and
3
SPEAKER_00
having nothing major go wrong.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I think all of these little things were happening that were growth experiences that felt uncomfortable at the time, but were pushing me as a person overall.
3
SPEAKER_00
And Poland was just such a great example of how we can get in our own way.
3
SPEAKER_00
I see this email come through where they re looking for American F-16 instructor pilots to spend the summer in Poland teaching and flying their jets, teaching their pilots.
3
SPEAKER_00
And my initial gut reaction was one of like, this seems so awesome.
3
SPEAKER_00
What a cool opportunity.
3
SPEAKER_00
You get to travel abroad.
3
SPEAKER_00
You get to live there for three months.
3
SPEAKER_00
I d never been to Poland.
3
SPEAKER_00
They have really nice F-16s that are newer than ours, which was appealing.
3
SPEAKER_00
I just saw it as like this amazing opportunity.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then just, this is all happening in a few seconds, I immediately start to think about all the self-doubt.
3
SPEAKER_00
It starts to flow in.
3
SPEAKER_00
I had just been certified as an instructor pilot for a few days when I saw that email, and that was one of the criteria to be qualified.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so all the other instructors in my squadron were more experienced.
3
SPEAKER_00
I knew Poland didn t have female fighter pilots, at least in the Viper.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so I knew that there would likely be some weird cultural things to navigate there.
3
SPEAKER_00
that adds a whole layer of complexity.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so all of these reasons why I shouldn t do it started to like flow into my head.
3
SPEAKER_00
But because I had kind of been on this intentional journey where I was taking
3
SPEAKER_00
a lot of time to reflect and try to gain perspective on who I was and who I could become.
3
SPEAKER_00
I recognized that happening.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I almost like took this step back and was like, no, you dumb dumb.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like this is exactly the type of thing you re trying to work towards being able to do.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, why would you eliminate yourself from it?
3
SPEAKER_00
So I went to my commander and he ended up being like, yeah, let s apply or let s put your name in the hat and let s do it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I got picked to go and I spent three months there and
3
SPEAKER_00
it was an interesting time.
3
SPEAKER_00
There were a bunch of cultural things to navigate, it turns out, especially with the older generation of Polish pilots.
3
SPEAKER_00
Their younger guys had been Western trained down in Tucson, so they already had similar idea of tactics that I had been used to flying.
3
SPEAKER_00
They already had similar kind of culture in the squadron, but then you kind of had like the old guard guys who were close to retirement, who were kind of like salty and cynical.
3
SPEAKER_00
And they honestly just ignored me completely.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like we d pass in the hallway, they wouldn t acknowledge me.
3
SPEAKER_00
We never flew together.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I guess that was fine.
3
SPEAKER_00
I could do my job there with that being the way it was.
3
SPEAKER_00
It wasn t anything that was like, she shouldn t be here or anything aggressive like that.
3
SPEAKER_00
So that ended up not being that big of a deal.
3
SPEAKER_00
When you re a new instructor pilot, there s always this period of cutting your teeth and getting repetition in and learning the mistakes that students will make, how far to let them go down the road towards failure where they re going to learn a lot, but not put you or themselves in a dangerous situation.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so some of that can t be taught.
3
SPEAKER_00
It just comes with experience.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so I was learning all of that and feeling that out as a new instructor in Poland.
3
SPEAKER_00
All of those guys spoke English, but there was still a little bit of a language barrier with accents and just English as a second language.
3
SPEAKER_00
There was some stuff to overcome there when you re speaking about complicated technical tactics.
3
SPEAKER_00
So it was challenging.
3
SPEAKER_00
There were a lot of times where I was like, oh man, I m kind of nervous for this flight or I don t really feel like I fit in here or whatever it was.
3
SPEAKER_00
But by the time I left, I walked away with some really incredible friends that I had flown with and I still talk to today.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I again, walked away with a big confidence boost in my ability to step into a situation that feels kind of scary and uncertain and get through it and learn a ton from it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so it was really a growing experience overall.
3
SPEAKER_01
I wanted to just follow up with your experience in Afghanistan, because can you paint a vivid picture for the listeners on the emotional switch from going from training flights or even flights when you re not going into a combat situation to the gravity of combat missions?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s for sure.
3
SPEAKER_00
No matter how prepared you are, it s for sure an added level of stress and responsibility.
3
SPEAKER_00
And you feel that on your shoulders, especially being in a single seat aircraft where you have a wingman and you can plan joint attacks together and you can kind of bounce ideas off of each other.
3
SPEAKER_00
But you re ultimately completely responsible for everything that happens in your aircraft, any weapon or munition that comes off your jet.
3
SPEAKER_00
What happens with that when it impacts like that is all on your shoulders.
3
SPEAKER_00
And you also, of course, more than anything, don t want someone on your side to get hurt accidentally.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so there is a lot of responsibility that comes with that.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I did attacks there that were very benign, like I had done a lot more stressful kind of simulations in training.
3
SPEAKER_00
And even the most straightforward, daytime, good weather, benign attack, when you push the pickle button, which is the button that releases the bomb off your jet,
3
SPEAKER_00
there is an elevated level of stress.
3
SPEAKER_00
Your heart rate goes up.
3
SPEAKER_00
You definitely, definitely feel that.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I think maybe that gets toned down with more experience, but I for sure experienced that on my first deployment.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I wanted to just go back to your experience in Poland for a second, only to ask that there s been a lot of talk about Ukraine potentially getting some F-16s.
3
SPEAKER_01
And there s been some pushback, obviously, from our leadership, because they, as I understand it, think it could be a difficult transition for the pilots to go from Russian aircraft to an F-16.
3
SPEAKER_01
From your perspective, how difficult a training evolution would that be for their pilots?
3
SPEAKER_00
I think it s hard to say for sure without knowing how proficient their pilots are currently, but I think they re already fighter pilots.
3
SPEAKER_00
They already have tactics that they re using.
3
SPEAKER_00
The F-16 is going to be a lot more user-friendly.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s going to provide a lot more situational awareness than the aircraft they have been flying.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s got more capable pretty much everything.
3
SPEAKER_00
So there will for sure be a spin-up and they aren t going to have the proficiency level of someone who s gone through the year-long B course here in the States and been flying the jet for years through our training programs.
3
SPEAKER_00
But that doesn t mean they can t have a huge impact at a lower level with a less proficient kind of tactical level.
3
SPEAKER_00
They still could definitely, that could shift things that could really amplify their ability
4
SPEAKER_01
to own the airspace over where they are now.
4
SPEAKER_01
So it s like, will it be a perfect solution?
4
SPEAKER_01
Probably not, but it s better than nothing.
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, thank you for that.
4
SPEAKER_00
And becoming a Thunderbird or a Blue Angel is a remarkable accomplishment.
4
SPEAKER_00
So few pilots ever get the opportunity to be part of such a high performing unit.
4
SPEAKER_00
Can you share the pivotal moments and decisions that led you to this prestigious role?
4
SPEAKER_01
For sure.
4
SPEAKER_01
It was a long time coming, but I didn t quite recognize it until late in the game.
4
SPEAKER_01
Various points throughout my career.
4
SPEAKER_01
So the first time I actually saw the Thunderbirds fly, I had already track selected or already gotten the assignment of F-16s.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was at the end of pilot training at my pilot training base in Columbus, Mississippi.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was kind of in this weird period where I was waiting.
4
SPEAKER_01
to go on to my next base to start F-16 training, but I was still there.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so that was the first time I saw the team fly.
4
SPEAKER_01
It wasn t as a little kid.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I just remember being like, that is so cool.
4
SPEAKER_01
But at that time, it wasn t like, oh, I want to go do that eventually.
4
SPEAKER_01
It was just like, wow, that jet s cool.
4
SPEAKER_01
All the stuff it can do is awesome.
4
SPEAKER_01
I get to go fly that eventually.
4
SPEAKER_01
This is great.
4
SPEAKER_01
But various points throughout my career, the Thunderbirds would get talked about maybe when they were hiring or they were coming to an air show near the base you were at, or people would just talk about them in general.
4
SPEAKER_01
Someone you know might be applying, whatever.
4
SPEAKER_01
And every time, my ears would perk up.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like, oh, that sounds interesting.
4
SPEAKER_01
That sounds like an exciting, fun, fulfilling mission, cool flying.
4
SPEAKER_01
But I never told anyone that it was something I was interested in and I never set it as a goal for myself.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I always had this feeling of like doubt in kind of the pit of my stomach where I was like, I don t think I m actually good enough to fly at that level and be part of that team.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I m not going to set this goal because if I tell anyone about it, now there s accountability and I don t want it like that.
4
SPEAKER_01
There s a high chance I m not going to actually achieve it.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I kind of just kept it all to myself.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then while I was in Japan, the last probably six to eight months that I was there, I was the safety observer for the PACAF demo team, which is the single jet F-16
4
SPEAKER_01
demonstration that does stuff all over Asia.
4
SPEAKER_01
They would do shows in all parts of Japan, Malaysia.
4
SPEAKER_01
They would go down to India.
4
SPEAKER_01
They went to Australia.
4
SPEAKER_01
They always have a second pilot who s more junior that doesn t actually fly the demo, but flies a spare aircraft to the show locations.
4
SPEAKER_01
in case there s a maintenance issue and the demo pilot needs to move to the other aircraft.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so I volunteered to do that because I needed to get out of Japan for all the reasons I already discussed, and it was a way to do it.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so I got to go to all these great locations for air shows, even though I wasn t flying the demonstration, I was still getting to interact with the crowd.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I remember specifically in Japan and in Malaysia,
4
SPEAKER_01
they don t have any female fighter pilots.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so the crowd seeing me land an F-16 and knowing that I flew that jet was just... A lot of them were like, for real?
4
SPEAKER_01
You flew that?
4
SPEAKER_01
That actually happened?
4
SPEAKER_01
And then the reaction from the women though was incredible.
4
SPEAKER_01
They were so excited, so empowered.
4
SPEAKER_01
I had several Japanese women tell me that they were going to be the first female fighter pilot in Japan.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like, they were just so excited.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I kind of realized that I was having this really positive impact on these women.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was like, that was cool.
4
SPEAKER_01
That was really rewarding.
4
SPEAKER_01
Set that aside, I went on to Texas.
4
SPEAKER_01
I did three years there, the deployment, the trip to Poland, all that stuff.
4
SPEAKER_01
I actually had my follow-on assignment to go to New Mexico to teach at the F-16 schoolhouse to teach brand new F-16 pilots.
4
SPEAKER_01
And again, an email comes across from Air Force Personnel Center, which they send out random stuff all the time.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I usually just deleted it and didn t read it.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I happened to open this one and I saw that it was the hiring message for the Thunderbirds.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it wasn t the like.
4
SPEAKER_01
Hey, hiring is opening.
4
SPEAKER_01
Get your applications in. 
4
SPEAKER_01
It was like, we ve already announced this three times.
4
SPEAKER_01
This is the last warning.
4
SPEAKER_01
You have to have your application in by next week.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that s the cutoff.
4
SPEAKER_01
Of course, that s the one I saw.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I read through the requirements for whatever reason.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, wow, I actually meet all of these.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m beyond the minimums by quite a bit to qualify to apply.
4
SPEAKER_01
And whatever it was, you know, the place I had been just in personal growth and kind of building my confidence in the jet, I was like, I think I should apply for this.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so I went to my boss who could have just crushed it right there very easily because I totally missed the initial window, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
Like we re in the short hairs as far as getting an application in.
4
SPEAKER_01
The base in New Mexico is already expecting me.
4
SPEAKER_01
They re short manned instructor pilots.
4
SPEAKER_01
So they re like anxiously awaiting my arrival to help with the workload.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I went to him and I was like, I got this email, I saw this email, like, what do you think?
4
SPEAKER_01
I always think that s such a good example of leadership and knowing your people and being a mentor to them, because he could have made a decision one way or the other, and I would have gone with it either way.
4
SPEAKER_01
He could have just been like, sorry, Mace, it s a little bit late.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s just not going to work this time.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I would have been like, okay.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I would have gone off to New Mexico.
4
SPEAKER_01
But instead, he knew me really well.
4
SPEAKER_01
And he was like, I think you would be great for this job.
4
SPEAKER_01
What do we need to do to get your application?
4
SPEAKER_01
And how can I help?
4
SPEAKER_01
So he made phone calls to get letters of recommendation.
4
SPEAKER_01
We got everything submitted just within a few days.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I ended up getting an interview, becoming a semi-finalist with 12 other people for three spots, getting called back a couple of months later as a finalist down to six people for three spots and eventually getting the call that I was going to be hired as a solo pilot for the team.
4
SPEAKER_01
So it was a little bit of a.
4
SPEAKER_01
a kind of knee-jerk reaction when I saw that email, like, I think I should go after this opportunity.
4
SPEAKER_01
This just feels like the right time.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then having the courage finally to be like, I m going to put myself out there and apply, even though there s a good chance I won t get hired and probably will fail.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it ended up working out.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I mean, it s completely changed
4
SPEAKER_01
what I m doing with my life now.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s changed my outlook on things.
4
SPEAKER_01
I ve been able to impact so many people positively.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s like the most rewarding thing I ve ever done.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I am so grateful that I opened that email and went and talked to my boss that day.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, well, already you ve covered three different examples where you push yourself out of your comfort zone.
4
SPEAKER_00
You know, the one in Japan where you were going with the demo team, going to Poland, and then this one.
4
SPEAKER_00
So I think it s a great example for the listeners that even if there s something that you don t think is within reach, we sometimes put those self-limitating factors on ourselves instead of just giving ourselves the opportunity to pursue the goals that we really want in life.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, absolutely.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think a few people have said kind of the slogan of like, make them tell you no, like don t eliminate yourself before you ve even given it a shot.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I think we do that so many times.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I still catch myself considering doing that, even though I m literally pushing other people and trying to teach them how to be bold and take those small steps and grow their tolerance for calculated risk.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I regularly catch myself being like, Ooh, that feels uncomfortable.
4
SPEAKER_01
Maybe I shouldn t do it.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then I m like, no.
4
SPEAKER_01
This is what you want.
4
SPEAKER_01
Why would you do that?
4
SPEAKER_01
And I think just having that perspective to recognize it and stop it and actually make kind of informed decision based on what your big goals are, what your end game goals are can be pretty powerful.
4
SPEAKER_00
About a year ago, I had Major Katie Higgins-Cook on the podcast, who was the first Blue Angels female pilot.
4
SPEAKER_00
She flew Fat Albert, but she was telling me that when she got selected, you think it s the selection process where you go in and as you said, you re one of the 12 and then six and whatever.
4
SPEAKER_00
She didn t realize going in how big a role the existing team members play in picking who s part of the team, because especially in your circumstance, their lives are going to be on the line when you re flying next to them.
4
SPEAKER_00
And she was telling me, it s really how do you fit in?
4
SPEAKER_00
How does your personality mesh?
4
SPEAKER_00
How much camaraderie do they feel?
4
SPEAKER_00
Was that a similar experience to you joining the Thunderbirds?
4
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely.
4
SPEAKER_01
A lot of times people will be like, you flew for the Thunderbirds, the best pilots in the whole Air Force.
4
SPEAKER_01
Of course, we like to be called that, but it s not necessarily true.
4
SPEAKER_01
You re not always hiring the best hands-on pilot.
4
SPEAKER_01
There s a certain level of proficiency that you, of course, have to have and an aptitude to learn the maneuvers.
4
SPEAKER_01
but so much of it comes down to how you will fit into that team dynamic.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think it s similar for the Blues.
4
SPEAKER_01
We re on the road 240 days a year.
4
SPEAKER_01
So you are with those people far more than you re with your family.
4
SPEAKER_01
You are in those situations where you have to trust your life in their hands on a daily basis.
4
SPEAKER_01
You can t have personality conflicts that are creating like poison in the well that are just spreading through the organization.
4
SPEAKER_01
That can be the most catastrophic thing to flying a safe demonstration and a good demonstration.
4
SPEAKER_01
a ton of weight is put on creating the best team dynamic.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I think it s important for the listeners to understand that although the Thunderbirds don t see combat, that doesn t mean it s an easy life.
4
SPEAKER_00
Because I understand for you in the Blues, as you were saying, the schedule is grueling.
4
SPEAKER_00
You guys train from March to November, often away from your home base in Las Vegas, which I didn t realize until I was doing my research for this, that the Thunderbirds were even based in Las Vegas.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then my understanding is you
5
SPEAKER_00
You only get one day off a week, which is a Wednesday.
5
SPEAKER_00
Is that pretty accurate?
5
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
5
SPEAKER_01
You nailed it.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
Show season is March through November.
5
SPEAKER_01
So that s when you re really on the road.
5
SPEAKER_01
And sometimes that one day off a week, the Wednesday weekend is at home, but sometimes it s not.
5
SPEAKER_01
We would link shows together if they, it made sense geographically, like multiple East coast or Eastern half of the U S shows instead of bringing the jets all the way back to Vegas.
5
SPEAKER_01
So you have to be there.
5
SPEAKER_01
There s no backup pilots.
5
SPEAKER_01
There s no taking leave during that time.
5
SPEAKER_01
So you are missing any weddings, graduations, kids, baseball games, birthdays, anniversaries.
5
SPEAKER_01
You re missing all of that.
5
SPEAKER_01
And for three years is how long I was on the team.
5
SPEAKER_01
So it is a huge sacrifice for you and your family, despite it being a cool job and you getting to experience some of the most incredible things.
5
SPEAKER_01
It 100% becomes a grind and there s points late in the season.
5
SPEAKER_01
around August, September, where you still have a couple of months to go, so you don t quite feel like you re getting that extra momentum as the light at the end of the tunnel approaches, but you ve been doing it for months and months.
5
SPEAKER_01
Your sleep gets messed up with constantly changing time zones.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s hard on your body physically.
5
SPEAKER_01
People get tired.
5
SPEAKER_01
You can see it.
5
SPEAKER_01
Morale starts to drop a little bit during the season around that time.
5
SPEAKER_01
People have the thousand-yard stare, and you re just trying to get through the next air show.
5
SPEAKER_01
Then you add on top of that, that you re a public figure.
5
SPEAKER_01
You re an ambassador for the military, so you are constantly doing public-facing things.
5
SPEAKER_01
You re doing media interviews.
5
SPEAKER_01
You re doing school visits.
5
SPEAKER_01
You re signing autographs.
5
SPEAKER_01
You re being stopped by people constantly who are likely having their only interaction with a Thunderbird or a Blue Angel pilot, and you have to make that positive for them.
5
SPEAKER_01
even if you re tired and your back hurts and you re finally getting to escape to quick run to the bathroom and you ve had to go for an hour and someone stops you that happened all the time.
5
SPEAKER_01
And that gets exhausting.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m not gonna it gets tough.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so I actually had a firsthand view into this when I was a midshipman.
5
SPEAKER_00
I happened to pull into port for a summer cruise into Seattle and the Seattle Seafair was going on and the Blues were performing and the sponsor family that I had, I m not sure if it s the same at the Air Force Academy,
5
SPEAKER_00
But at the Naval Academy, we have sponsor families.
5
SPEAKER_00
And one of the previous midshipmen that they had sponsored was now the lead solo for the Blues.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so he knew I was coming there and they hooked me up with a flight suit, a Blues flight suit.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so for the whole weekend, I walked around with them and saw firsthand what it was like to be them.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it is the only other thing I could imagine.
5
SPEAKER_00
From what I experienced was like being a rock star or maybe being an astronaut because it was just constantly on the go from one event to the next, just putting on a performance almost whether you were in the cockpit or out of it.
5
SPEAKER_01
a hundred percent.
5
SPEAKER_01
And we would often say that we were kind of like our bodies were getting beat up like professional athletes, but we didn t quite have the support that they get with athletic trainers and physical therapists and cold plunges and all the things like you just, the military doesn t have that support system, the resources to do that.
5
SPEAKER_01
So you start to get the physical ailments that start to pop up more and more the further into the season you get.
5
SPEAKER_01
But then, yeah, we re like a band on tour.
5
SPEAKER_01
I don t want to use this example, but I m going to.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s like being Taylor Swift, going from one concert to the next in a new city all the time and never really having time to yourself.
5
SPEAKER_01
And that sounds really cool, but there s for sure some sacrifices that come with it.
5
SPEAKER_01
And it s always one of those things that s hard to really
5
SPEAKER_01
honestly described to people because you don t want to sound ungrateful for the opportunity.
5
SPEAKER_01
So many people, that s like a dream job.
5
SPEAKER_01
And it is for all of us who apply as well.
5
SPEAKER_01
But it s still challenging.
5
SPEAKER_01
There s just, I m not going to lie and say that it s not.
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, one of the things John told me, and I am sure it was the same for you, is that people don t realize the amount of athleticism that you have to have to be in any one of these positions.
5
SPEAKER_00
Because he was telling me that the weight of the stick could be anywhere from 20 to 40 pounds and it could give you tinnitus.
5
SPEAKER_00
He was talking about when he was pulling the Gs like I m sure you did.
5
SPEAKER_00
that he would, after a show, sometimes lose five to eight pounds of water weight just because of how much physical exertion he was doing.
5
SPEAKER_00
Did you experience some of the same things?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
So there s some differences between the F 18, the F 16, as far as the side stick and the stick pressure, the legacy Hornet, they were using a spring for resistance and we use like an electronic trim.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s just a button on the stick, but same thing.
5
SPEAKER_01
We always flew with resistance on the stick.
5
SPEAKER_01
The maximum in the F 16, those 20 pounds.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I would fly with about half that.
5
SPEAKER_01
So, you know, 10 to 12 pounds, but still this is for 45 minutes straight.
5
SPEAKER_01
So tendonitis is definitely a thing.
5
SPEAKER_01
Your hand would go numb.
5
SPEAKER_01
Parts of your fingers would go numb.
5
SPEAKER_01
I actually still, I ve been out of the Viper for over a year and a half.
5
SPEAKER_01
I still, when I sleep at night, these fingers go numb and it s all tied to nerves up here.
5
SPEAKER_01
So hopefully that ll go away eventually.
5
SPEAKER_01
We ll see.
5
SPEAKER_01
So it s definitely a thing.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, the Blue Angels, they pull seven and a half Gs.
5
SPEAKER_01
We pull nine Gs, but we wear G suits.
5
SPEAKER_01
They don t wear G suits.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I think physically it s pretty equally demanding.
5
SPEAKER_01
And that compression on your body all the time definitely starts to do some wear and tear on like your neck and your back and stuff.
5
SPEAKER_01
Also, these air shows are happening in the summer, so the bulk of the show season is hot.
5
SPEAKER_01
Whether it s in Florida and it s humid or it s in Las Vegas and it s just 110 degrees, you are sweating a ton.
5
SPEAKER_01
You regularly are getting out of the jet and your show suit is a darker color blue than when you got in because you ve sweated through it.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I have radiopathy myself, so I can understand
5
SPEAKER_00
Having numb fingers because ever since I was in the military, I ve had the same thing.
5
SPEAKER_00
Different circumstances, but it sucks.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it does.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s annoying and it s uncomfortable and it wakes you up and you re like, yeah, I m not a fan.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s not painful per se, mine isn t at least, but still for sure an annoyance.
5
SPEAKER_00
It is.
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, I want to talk about now life after the Thunderbirds, because you ended up making a huge career shift.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I understand that you just recently released a children s book in June titled Upside Down Dreams.
5
SPEAKER_00
What were you hoping that kids would take away from it?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so I made quite the pivot.
5
SPEAKER_01
I decided to not go fly for the airlines, which is what most people do coming out of military aviation.
5
SPEAKER_01
I kind of knew I was in a unique position and I had built these really loyal people that were really invested in what I was doing and I had seen the positive impact that sharing our stories can have on people.
5
SPEAKER_01
I realized that I became known because I was flying for the Thunderbirds, but to go behind that and be very vulnerable with people and talk about self-doubt and imposter syndrome and fear and all those things is unexpected from a fighter pilot in general, but especially from a Thunderbird or a Blue Angel pilot.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I saw that was powerful for people.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so I m doing that for corporate audiences now through keynotes, which has been really incredible
5
SPEAKER_01
But I also really loved having a positive impact on kids, and especially little girls.
5
SPEAKER_01
Countless times after an air show, I would get out of the jet, I would go up to the autograph line, and a lot of moms would drag their daughters up, and they would be like, look, she s number five, she just flew that jet that you saw.
5
SPEAKER_01
And when they realized that, when they put it all together,
5
SPEAKER_01
It was like their eyes would light up and they had this realization where you could just see that they suddenly realized that there was more possible for them in the world than they thought just a few minutes prior.
5
SPEAKER_01
And to be able to do that for a kid is the coolest thing I ve ever done.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s cooler than the cool flying.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I was at the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum my first year with the Thunderbirds and I went to the bookstore.
5
SPEAKER_01
I saw there were a lot of great kids books there, but there weren t a ton where there was a little girl that wanted to be a pilot or there was a female pilot that would be relatable for a kid.
5
SPEAKER_01
There were some historical figures, Amelia Earhart, that kind of thing, but I feel like there was a little bit of a gap there.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so it was then that I decided I wanted to eventually write a kid s book about a little girl who wanted to be a fighter pilot.
5
SPEAKER_01
And that was four years ago.
5
SPEAKER_01
And my book just came out about two months ago.
5
SPEAKER_01
So it was quite the process.
5
SPEAKER_01
Lots of time writing a manuscript, getting some insight from a lot of great people who kind of helped me refine it.
5
SPEAKER_01
pitching to agents and getting no response because that s how the publishing world works.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then during the pandemic, I had some more time to focus on it.
5
SPEAKER_01
And it wasn t until I was actually separated from active duty and focusing on my speaking stuff, and I became really active on LinkedIn, someone reached out on there about ghostwriting a professional development book,
5
SPEAKER_01
which I wasn t ready to do yet at that time, but I happened to mention that I had a children s book manuscript.
5
SPEAKER_01
She made some intros and a week later, I was working with the publisher and the book was being put together to be launched.
5
SPEAKER_01
And it s been
5
SPEAKER_01
It s so cool to see all the photos of kids reading it, to hear the stories from parents.
5
SPEAKER_01
I was recently at EAA Oshkosh, which is like the mother of all air shows and fly-ins.
5
SPEAKER_01
There were almost 700,000 people there.
5
SPEAKER_01
Over 10,000 airplanes flew in that week.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s in Wisconsin, my home state.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I got to do book signings.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so many of these kids came up and they had already ordered the book on Amazon and they had been reading it and they were coming to get their copy signed.
6
SPEAKER_00
And just to hear them talk about how much they love Lily, which is the main character, and how they want to be a fighter pilot someday now, and all these things, to see the perspective that it changed for them was really cool.
6
SPEAKER_00
Because kids pick up on subtle little signals, even if they have the most amazing supportive parents who are like, you can be whatever you want when you grow up.
6
SPEAKER_00
You can do anything.
6
SPEAKER_00
those kids are still the ones that would come up to be and be heartbroken because someone told them that only boys could be pilots.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I ve had countless little girls tell me that.
6
SPEAKER_00
And the fact that those conversations still happen between kids tells you a lot that society still signals that.
6
SPEAKER_00
And so I saw having Lily Padilly be the main character in this book as a way to kind of signal the opposite, that there s a space for all kids to dream big.
6
SPEAKER_00
in the aviation space or in whatever it is for them, regardless of their gender, regardless of their background.
6
SPEAKER_00
And it s just been so cool to see it out there in the world.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that s awesome.
6
SPEAKER_01
I just interviewed a couple weeks ago, Laura Vanderkamp, who wrote, if you give a mouse a cookie and the ensuing books, I think she s written 40 plus children s books now.
6
SPEAKER_01
What is the key ingredient to a successful children s book?
6
SPEAKER_00
I mean, this is my first time doing this, but I think illustrations have to be compelling for the kid, which I had nothing to do with.
6
SPEAKER_00
So props to my illustrator Skylar, because she brought my vision and words to life and did an amazing job.
6
SPEAKER_00
But I think they have to somehow relate to it or see themselves in it.
6
SPEAKER_00
If they re real little, rhyming and that kind of stuff is fun.
6
SPEAKER_00
But if you get into the slightly older kids, which this book is four to seven year olds are really like the target audience.
6
SPEAKER_00
Those kids want to see something that gets them excited and makes them imagine all of these new worlds that they could be part of.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I think that s why Lily s character was really important to me to make her just a relatable seven-year-old that other kids could see themselves in.
6
SPEAKER_01
Well, throughout this episode, you ve talked a number of times about how you ve been a fear confronter and have embraced discomfort and stepped out of your comfort zone.
6
SPEAKER_01
You have now become what I call a brand reinventor because anyone who steps out of the military, it s not a very easy transition.
6
SPEAKER_01
And the easy transition for you to have made, as you said, would have been to go fly for American or United.
6
SPEAKER_01
Can you give some tips?
6
SPEAKER_01
to the audience that if they are trying to look at a reinvention of themselves, what were some of the things that worked for you and what were some of the unexpected things that you ve had to go through?
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
So I think just realizing that there s probably more options than you thought is a big first step because I ve talked to a lot of my peers and they still are like, I only know how to fly airplanes.
6
SPEAKER_00
The only thing I can go do after I finished my military time is to fly for the airlines.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, you have so many more skills that translate to so many other things that you don t even realize.
6
SPEAKER_00
So kind of recognizing that and
6
SPEAKER_00
asking yourself what you really are passionate about, what gets you excited, and that might make you recognize some other opportunities, which is how speaking came into mind for me.
6
SPEAKER_00
I just realized how much I loved positively impacting other people and need to find a way to do that.
6
SPEAKER_00
But as I was approaching my time on active duty ending,
6
SPEAKER_00
My view on networking and mentors and leveraging the people that are willing to help you out has completely changed.
6
SPEAKER_00
When I was early on the Thunderbirds, there were some people that were more senior on the team who were just like the best networkers at show sites.
6
SPEAKER_00
They would end up getting us like the craziest experiences, cool stuff all the time.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I m just like, I just don t love doing that.
6
SPEAKER_00
It feels kind of like skeezy, but they were so successful at it.
6
SPEAKER_00
now I ve come to realize that in the civilian space, using your network is how everything gets done.
6
SPEAKER_00
And there s so many ways to do it with actually caring about that person and that relationship and doing it authentically and genuinely that isn t like where you re just using them and going on to the next thing.
6
SPEAKER_00
And it doesn t give those used car salesman vibes.
6
SPEAKER_00
And so recognizing what your goal is and tapping into your network, I think when you verbalize that you have this thing you want to go do,
6
SPEAKER_00
All these people that you never even thought of or imagined will show up for you.
6
SPEAKER_00
And it s been one of the biggest surprises, I think, for me.
6
SPEAKER_00
The number of people who reached out on LinkedIn or on Instagram or on email who I d never met or had met briefly at an air show where we had this really quick little interaction, probably while I was on the way to try to use the bathroom.
6
SPEAKER_00
And they re like, Hey, I happen to see that you re starting a speaking business and I happen to work for this company and we have this event coming up and we d love to support you.
6
SPEAKER_00
And just the amount of people that showed up for me was awesome.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I think that s true for most people, but it can be
6
SPEAKER_00
it can feel kind of weird to ask for what you want.
6
SPEAKER_00
And so I ve really encouraged people to be willing to put themselves out there and do that.
6
SPEAKER_00
And then I intentionally looked at where I had gaps in skills and knowledge and how I could fill those.
6
SPEAKER_00
So I knew I was going into an industry that I was just learning about.
6
SPEAKER_00
I knew I had done a ton of on-camera interviews while I was with the team.
6
SPEAKER_00
I d done school visits on stage, but I was not
6
SPEAKER_00
a 45-minute big stage keynote speaker.
6
SPEAKER_00
I just didn t have that experience.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I m a little bit introverted and shy, and I know you can t tell right now, but that s kind of terrifying for me to go do those big speeches.
6
SPEAKER_00
But I knew there were a lot of resources out there.
6
SPEAKER_00
So I started to look into speaking schools.
6
SPEAKER_00
I started to look into how much I would need to invest into it.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I really put intentional effort into becoming as good at it as I could.
6
SPEAKER_00
And the rest of it is really just recognizing that it s okay to start something even when you don t feel ready, just knowing that you re going to figure it out as you go.
6
SPEAKER_00
I think so many people hold themselves back and they re like, now s not the time because I don t quite have a full grasp on this.
6
SPEAKER_00
I don t have that skill yet.
6
SPEAKER_00
This is going on in my life.
6
SPEAKER_00
If you re waiting until you feel like, oh heck yeah, I m totally ready for this.
6
SPEAKER_00
You re going to wait for a very long time for a lot of people forever.
6
SPEAKER_00
And if you re not, when you eventually get there, you re probably thinking small.
6
SPEAKER_00
You re not playing big enough at that point because the experience that you re going after is not big enough to really grow you as much as it potentially could.
6
SPEAKER_00
So I really encourage people to be okay going after those things where there s a little bit of uncertainty and knowing that you re going to learn and you re going to evolve and you re going to grow throughout the process.
6
SPEAKER_01
Well, thank you so much for that, Michelle.
6
SPEAKER_01
And the last thing I wanted to do with you was to go through a quick lightning round of questions.
6
SPEAKER_01
The first one is kind of a yes or no question.
6
SPEAKER_01
Is it true that when you re flying in the Thunderbirds, that the way that you time all these maneuvers is by using a stopwatch?
6
SPEAKER_00
True, yes.
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That always just gets me.
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I remember that s what my friend who flew in the Blues said as well.
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Yep.
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What are five things that you can t live without?
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Oh, five things.
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Healthy foods.
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It s really important to me to have some sort of healthy options.
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I m not really strict on it.
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I love some ice cream, but generally healthy food options.
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A way to get physical activity in, whether that s just taking a walk outside or a run or getting to the gym.
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I think a confidant in some form, whether that s my husband or a close friend or a close colleague, just that person you can really trust.
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So you don t feel alone when you re wondering about things and struggling with things.
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These are all like very high level answers.
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I m like, could I just say like Diet Coke or something?
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Oh, and that coffee.
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I love coffee so much.
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So that s an easy softball answer for number four.
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Highly caffeinated.
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Love me some coffee.
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Number five.
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I think this is another big scope one, really like a purpose.
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I am very goal driven and I ve always been that way.
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And I think that s led to the various successes that I ve had.
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And if I don t have some sort of objective that I m working towards, whether that s like running a marathon or that s growing my business a certain amount, or that s getting good at speaking, I get a little stir crazy.
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So I think some sort of purpose.
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Okay.
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If you were given the opportunity to host the late night show and you found yourself in the car getting to do car karaoke, who would you want sitting next to you performing?
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Oh, so I can pick any singer, huh?
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This is tough.
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I mean, I m really not a good singer.
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I need someone that could heavily cover up my voice.
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So I m going to say Kelly Clarkson, which is the randomest thing because I got to be on her show while I was on the Thunderbirds, and it was just such an incredible experience.
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She s just a good person.
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And I think a lot of people that are public figures aren t necessarily genuinely as nice as they portray themselves as.
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And she was just awesome to everyone on her staff, to us, to the Thunderbirds Public Affairs, to the little girl I got to surprise on the show.
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It was just like a delightful experience.
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And so, yeah, have a little reunion, Kelly Clarkson.
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And her voice can for sure cover up my off pitch.
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Yeah, she s a great one.
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She seems definitely the type who has not forgotten where she s come from and hasn t changed that much in who she is today.
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So thank you for.
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sharing that and then my last one is a crowd favorite and that is if you were selected to be one of the inaugural astronauts on the mission to Mars and the powers that be said that you could establish one edict law for this new inhabitants what would it be?
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Oh man, this is a hard question.
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I thought you were going to say, would you want to go?
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I was like, well, this is, that s not too hard.
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I mean, you re like writing the constitution for a new planet, essentially, which gets into a whole bunch of things.
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Right.
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I m now I ve got to go listen to some other episodes and hear what other people have said.
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Cause I feel like there s probably some good ones.
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I think tribalism and division is so bad right now and it s like people are so mean to each other.
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I think it would be something along the lines of like almost the golden rule of like treating each other with respect and how you want to be treated.
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And that seems like such a basic level thing that you re taught in like kindergarten, but there s a lot of adults right now that really suck at it.
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So I think like establishing a new planet where
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people genuinely are working for the greater good and they care about each other and they can have empathy for people that even if they re different from them, that would be a good start.
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Well, great.
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Well, and Michelle, if a listener wanted to learn more about you, where s the best place that they can go to for all things, Michelle?
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Yeah, I have quite a few different locations.
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I think the best one-stop shop at this point is honestly on LinkedIn, which I m Michelle Mace and quotes Curren on there.
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I write on there about five days a week and it s a lot of the stuff we talked about today.
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It s taking stories and lessons from my career and translating them into things that people can use personally and in businesses.
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And my website and everything is linked through there.
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My website is MaceCurren.com, just my call sign and my last name.
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And then if you re looking for
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really cool visuals, cockpit videos, photos, that kind of thing.
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Instagram definitely is where it s at.
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I have some really incredible flying videos on there still, and that s just mace underscore current.
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Well, great.
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Thank you so much for being a guest on the show.
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It was such a privilege to have you.
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Absolutely.
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This has been great.
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And I love the questions at the end.
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You asked me a lot of stuff I have not been asked before.
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Well, thank you.
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I always find that part fun.
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So thank you.
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I thoroughly enjoyed that interview with Michelle Mace Curran, and I wanted to thank Michelle for coming on the show this week.
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Links to all things Michelle will be in the show notes at passionstruck.com.
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Please use our website links.
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If you purchase any of the books from the guests that we feature here on the show, all proceeds go to supporting the show.
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And speaking of books, I am so excited to tell you about my brand new book, Passionstruck, 12 Powerful Principles.
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to unlock your purpose and ignite your most intentional life.
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You can purchase it anywhere that you buy books or links will be in the show notes.
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Videos are on YouTube at both John R. Miles and Passionstruck Clips.
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Advertiser deals and discount codes are in one convenient place at passionstruck.com slash deals.
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You can go to LinkedIn and sign up for my newsletter.
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I have a brand new newsletter on LinkedIn called Work Intentionally.
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Go and check it out.
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You can also find me on all the social platforms at John R. Miles.
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And lastly, you can sign up for my personal newsletter, Live Intentionally at passionstruck.com.
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You re about to hear a preview of the PassionStruck podcast that I did with retired Staff Sergeant and New York Times bestselling author Travis Mills.
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Travis is not just a war hero.
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He is one of only five quadruple amputees to survive the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
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And his journey from the battlefield to where he is today is nothing short of awe-inspiring.
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In our interview, we discuss his brand new book, Bounce Back, 12 Warrior Principles to Reclaim and Recalibrate Your Life.
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In our discussion, Travis lays out a powerful roadmap of how to face life s challenges and emerge stronger on the other side.
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I think I m just fortunate to still be around.
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And I realized that instead of having survivor guilt and feeling like I should be down or out because people didn t make it back home, I realized that it wasn t my choice or my call.
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I didn t make it back home, but I can push forward in life and live to the fullest, not only for myself, but also for the service members that didn t make it back home and their loved ones that no longer have them in their life.
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Remember, we rise by lifting others.
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And if you found today s episode useful, then please share it with your loved ones who can hear these inspiring words.
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In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so that you can live what you listen.
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Now, go out there this week and become PassionStruck.