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Coming up next on passion struck, I did not manage change properly.
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And that really was tough to shake.
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The only way to overcome that is massive success, which I had my first year, we were number one in the country, we beat Duke at Duke, we were tied for the ACC championship.
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And then my second year, we had the worst record in Carolina basketball history.
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So now the floodgates could open.
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It still bothers me.
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There s still moments.
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There s always triggers for me, North Carolina, the university, the basketball program, college basketball, those triggers, tough emotions.
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And at first I tried to be a tough guy and act like there s no big deal.
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It s just part of the business and things happen.
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And I was working with an executive coach at the time.
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And she said.
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No, no.
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You trusted this institution, these men, when you were 17 years old.
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Now you feel betrayed by a father figure.
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That made me realize that what I was feeling was real.
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It allowed me to deal with it a little bit better.
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Welcome to Passion Struck.
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Hi, I m your host, Jon R. Miles, and on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world s most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you.
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Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself.
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If you re new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays.
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We have long-form interviews the rest of the week with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes.
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Now, let s go out there and become Passion Struck.
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Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Episode 402 of Passion Struck, ranked by Apple as the number one alternative health podcast.
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And thank you to all of you who come back weekly to listen and learn how to live better, be better and impact the world.
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You re new to the show.
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Thank you so much for being here.
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Or you simply want to introduce this to a friend or a family member.
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And we love it when you do that.
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We have episode starter packs, which are collections of our fans favorite episodes that we organize and convenient playlists that give any new listener a great way to get
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acclimated to everything we do here on the show.
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Either go to Spotify or passionstruck.com slash starter packs to get started.
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And I have a special invitation for you.
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At the beginning of the year, we started a 50 week challenge to inspire you to become your most passionstruck self.
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We re now into week four of this challenge, and I invite all of you to join it.
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You can do so by signing up for our newsletter at passionstruck.com.
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I also am excited to introduce our new Passionstruck quiz.
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It s a unique opportunity for you to discover where you stand on the Passionstruck continuum.
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Are you an imitator, an orchestra, or a vanquisher?
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Take the quiz on passionstruck.com and find out which one resonates more with your journey to living a passionstruck life.
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In case you missed it, earlier this week I interviewed Jen Gottlieb.
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A towering figure in the realm of personal branding and authentic communication, Jen, with her illustrious background as a VH1 host, Broadway actress, and co-founder of Super Connector Media, brings a rich tapestry of experiences to the table.
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Her best-selling book, Be Seen, is not just a title, it s a manifesto for those seeking to make a genuine impact in their field.
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I also want to say thank you for your ratings and reviews.
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If you love today s episode or Jens, we would appreciate you giving it a five star review and sharing it with your friends and families.
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I know we and our guests love to see comments from our listeners, and we so appreciate it when you share these episodes with your family and friends.
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Throughout the month of January, as we near the launch of my new book, Passionstruck,
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I m going to feature guests who signify what it truly means to live a passion-struck life.
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Today, I m absolutely thrilled to be joined by an incredible guest, Coach Matt Doherty.
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For those of you who might not be familiar with Matt, let me paint a picture for you.
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Matt had an illustrious career in basketball, both as a player and a coach.
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He was a starting forward on the 1982 North Carolina National Championship team, coached by the legendary Dean Smith.
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And he played alongside some of the greatest names in basketball history, including Michael
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Following his playing career, Matt moved into coaching, serving as the head coach at both the University of Notre Dame and UNC as alma mater.
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In 2001, he was even named the National Coach of the Year.
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But in 2003, Matt faced one of the toughest moments in his career.
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He was forced to resign.
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This brings us to the theme of today s episode, Rebound.
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How do you bounce back when you ve been knocked down?
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How do you rebuild yourself and prepare for your next opportunity?
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Matt Doherty has lived through these challenges and more, facing adversity, betrayal, and moments of self-doubt, both on and off the court.
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In our episode, Matt takes us on a journey through his life, sharing with us the highs and lows, the moments of triumph, and the moments of despair.
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Through his story, Matt demonstrates
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In our discussion, Matt will share with us some of the valuable lessons he has learned about leadership.
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He will talk about the long and winding road to becoming a leader, the unexpected twists and turns that life can throw at you, and the importance of being dedicated enough to find the answers no matter how tough the questions may be.
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Leadership is not about being born with a certain set of skills or characteristics.
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It s about learning, growing, and developing as a person.
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And as Matt will tell us, anyone can become a better leader no matter where they re starting from.
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So without further ado, let s dive into this incredible conversation with Matt
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I m Matt Doherty.
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Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life.
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Now, let that journey begin.
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I am absolutely honored and thrilled today to welcome coach Matt Doherty to PassionStruck.
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Welcome Matt.
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Hey, thank you, John.
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Well, the reason I have you on here and I wanted to acknowledge it right off the bat was oftentimes I m requested by listeners of the show to invite guests on.
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And today it happens to be a person that you and I both know Kathleen Martin from our time in Mooresville.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Kathleen Martin was a great neighbor and a terrific photographer.
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Yes, she was.
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She actually took some pictures of my own two kids that are still some of the ones that we most cherish.
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So I totally agree with you.
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Yeah.
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Well, Matt, I wanted to start off.
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Can you tell us a little bit about your early years and what first drew you to basketball?
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Oh gosh, it s ironic you asked that because yesterday Bobby Knight died, the coach of the Indiana Hoosiers in 1976.
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His Indiana Hoosier basketball team led by Scott May, Quinn Buckner went undefeated.
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And I really think in the junior high, sixth, seventh, eighth grade is such an impressionable age for young people.
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that I remember watching those games.
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And I was the type of kid that you d watch the games, then you d go out to the driveway or the park and practice the moves that you saw.
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And so I grew up playing baseball like most kids in my neighborhood.
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My dad was a minor league pitcher.
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Then he signed me up for basketball camp in fourth grade.
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And I just was captivated by it because it s really truly a team game, but you can practice it individually.
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And other sports,
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Really, they re a team, but they re not so much a team game.
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When you look at some sports, maybe baseball, pitcher versus the batters, one-on-one, and you can t practice baseball by yourself.
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That s hard to do.
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Now with technology and things, you can a little bit better.
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Football, the same way.
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You need somebody else.
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With basketball, I just needed the ball
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in a dream and I was good and I was blessed to have that opportunity and then really God blessed me with my height.
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I m 6 7 , or I used to be.
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Now that I m 61, I think I ve lost an inch.
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But yeah, I just love the flow of the game, the energy of the game.
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There was no stoppage.
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It was constant action.
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Everyone gets to touch the ball, the communication.
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It s a beautiful game.
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So that s what captivated me.
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I m glad you brought up Bobby Knight, and I have a fun story about him.
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I remember visiting my brother and sister who were both students at Indiana, probably it would have been 92-ish, 93-ish.
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And we went to this steak and ale.
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And during that time, I think if I have the name correct, Calvin Chaney was one of the stars on the team.
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And we re sitting there eating lunch.
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And I have my back to the booth behind me.
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And all of a sudden I hear these people coming up, Hey coach, how do you think the team s going to be this year?
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Hey coach, how do you think this is going to be?
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And it was like a Hoosier moment.
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And I m like, I can t turn around.
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I can t turn around.
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And Bobby Knight was sitting directly behind me, but just the enthusiasm of the townspeople and the way that he was addressing them was just a once in a lifetime thing to see.
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Is he was beloved in that state and beloved across basketball and I had the pleasure of getting to know him work with his son pat.
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I played against Bobby nights teams I coached against coach night and I got to fish with coach night not many people get to say those things.
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Well, let me ask you an interesting question since we re on this topic.
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You played for Dean Smith.
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Can you contrast Dean Smith and Bobby Knight?
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Because they re probably two of the most famous basketball coaches of all time.
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Yeah, I think their core values are the same.
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Coach Smith was play hard, play smart, play together.
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I think Bobby Knight, his culture could have used those values verbatim.
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It was all about team play.
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It was all about playing hard.
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It was playing smart.
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playing together.
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It s just that they communicated that in different ways.
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Coach Smith never cursed.
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Never, ever.
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I don t know anybody that knows, has ever heard Coach Smith curse.
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Anybody that s been around Bobby Knight has heard him curse.
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Bobby Knight s a big man.
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Like, people don t realize how big a man he is.
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He s probably 6 5 , a monster guy.
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Coach Smith, not so much.
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Coach Smith was probably 5 9 , maybe 5 10 .
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Coach Smith was a little more soft-spoken, calculated.
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The professor, Bobby Knight, was more of the ballroom, rough-and-tumble, blue-collar guy.
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But they were both teachers.
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They were both educators and they were both leaders of men.
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And they both won without cheating.
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Yeah, which is an extremely important aspect of it.
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And I always liked Bobby because I went to the Naval Academy and I love the fact that he got his start coaching at Army and I could see why those attributes would have been great there and look what led
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to Coach K, your rival, and his legendary career.
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I know as a recruited college athlete myself that you have lots of choices if you re a good athlete of where you eventually end up.
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What led you to want to play for North Carolina?
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I think first and foremost, I wanted to win.
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I wanted to play where basketball was important.
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I love the ACC, the intensity of the league.
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I was used to that growing up on Long Island playing.
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I played for Bob McKillop at Holy Trinity High School.
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Bob went on to be Steph Curry s coach at Davidson and Dick Zeitler.
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We had great teams, great energy, great rivalries.
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I wanted to be a part of that.
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The ACC was it.
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The Big East was just starting to get formed, and the ACC was the best conference in the country.
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So my final four schools were Duke, North Carolina, Notre Dame, and Virginia.
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Notre Dame was an independent at the time, but as an Irish Catholic kid out of
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New York, Notre Dame made a lot of sense for me, but I just felt that Coach Smith was head and shoulders above the others.
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There s a difference in the temperament and the feel and the vibe around the program.
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And I felt year in, year out would be in the top 10 with the chance to win a national championship.
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And my first year, we made it to the national championship game, ironically losing to Bobby Knight in 1981.
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That was the day Ronald Reagan got shot.
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And then 82, we won it.
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And then 83, we ranked number one in the country and lost in the final eight.
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And then my senior year, we probably had my best team.
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And we lost to Indiana in 1984 to an Indiana team that wasn t great.
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Steve Alford was a freshman.
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But it was amazing how things were woven between Indiana and North Carolina.
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Bobby Knight, Dean Smith, my two teammates, Sam Perkins and Michael Jordan, ended up playing for Bobby Knight in the 1984 Olympics, winning the gold medal.
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So yeah, really cool how the programs are very similar with their core values.
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And I could say the same about Duke.
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And you could say the same about most organizations.
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Alabama football.
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They re all about the process.
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They re all about sacrificing for the good of the team.
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They re all about hard work.
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They re all about paying attention.
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And I do a lot of talk about the organizational triangle, where every organization is made up of talent systems and culture.
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And talents at the top, you have systems, you have culture.
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And the better systems you have, the better culture you have, the better your talent will perform, the better talent you ll attract, the better talent you ll retain.
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However, at the end of the day, culture is king.
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You could have great systems and great talent, but if your culture stinks, you re not going to perform at a high level.
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You could have average talent, average systems, but if you have a great culture, you can be successful.
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And so I love talking about culture, and we talk about the word intentional.
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That has to be intentionally driven.
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You just can t let your, well, people do, you could have a default culture, like, okay, we re just gonna, we re gonna be who we are.
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We re going to allow people to do what they want to do.
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But your culture gets watered down once you get past two people.
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So I hire you.
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OK, we have a culture.
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It s exciting.
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High energy.
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We both show up on time with great energy.
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We do our
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tasks, we hold each other accountable.
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But all of a sudden, you hire somebody else, I hire somebody else.
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Once we start growing past four, we re screwed.
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So that s when your culture has to be intentional.
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Your core values have to be written down, well thought out, no more than four core values because people can t remember more than three or four things.
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That s why phone numbers are three to four digits long, not seven.
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And then your behaviors, what behaviors are sprout from your core values that are written down, that are intentionally followed.
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And then the toughest part, John, is you have to hold people accountable.
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And that s where people get uncomfortable, where, hey, John, you didn t come into work on time.
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Is everything OK?
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John, your report was supposed to be on my desk by 5 o clock on Friday, and I don t have it.
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What happened?
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And depending on your response, then I respond accordingly.
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People don t like to have those crucial conversations, but that s all you have in leadership.
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That s all you have in teams is crucial conversations, and it needs to be driven by core values and behaviors.
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Thank you for explaining that, because as I had done research on you, one of the core things that Dean Smith had taught you was this value between systems and, as you re saying, the team itself and how they re performing and the culture.
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How did he go about making sure that those qualities were things that you would follow or not follow?
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Were there specific ways that he did that?
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Well, I think this is important.
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He talks about them in the recruiting process.
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So when you re onboarding a new employee or recruiting a new employee, are you talking about your core values?
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Are you talking about the behaviors that are important to your organization?
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So that way it s not a surprise.
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Now some people may not feel comfortable being held to that standard.
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Okay, good.
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I want to know that now before I hire them.
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And then some will lean into that and embrace it and be excited by it.
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So take you back to my home visit with Dean Smith in 1979.
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He s in my living room.
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right across from me.
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My parents are there, the pastor from my school, the assistants from North Carolina, and Coach Smith, the topic of playing time comes up, and he said to me, you ll be lucky to play by the time you re a junior.
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I hadn t heard that from other schools.
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Like other schools are basically telling me or implying that I ll play a lot as a freshman.
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I leaned in and said to myself, I ll show you.
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Okay, so I leaned into that.
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I took it as a challenge.
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I m fairly competitive.
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And I think that s maybe one what he was testing.
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are you willing to compete for playing time even though you re a high school all-american to setting expectations that it s not going to be easy so that way when it gets hard he can say wait a second remember in your home in September of 1979 when I said you probably won t play till you re a junior
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So what part of this is a surprise?
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So I think that s important.
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And I think a lot of leaders are afraid to lead with their core values and the difficulties.
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Ernest Shackleton, who led the expedition to the South Pole, it s a great book.
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I m drawing a blank on the title of the book.
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But his recruiting pitch was like it was written in the paper.
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Men wanted for difficult journey.
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Now I m paraphrasing.
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Terrible weather conditions, limited light, chance of loss of life, cold, bitter winters.
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Basically, this grim recruiting letter, and at the end, small chance of fame.
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And he took his men on this endurance, I think was the name of the boat.
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And that s the book.
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He took his men on this journey.
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They got shipwrecked.
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No one died.
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He rescued all of them, but he told them up front, this is going to be hard.
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You might not live through this journey, but if you do, people will be talking about us forever.
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And so some people get excited about that.
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Some people are scared of that.
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That s okay.
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That s okay.
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But now we have a target audience of who we can go after.
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And we know that when things do get tough, they re going to embrace, they re going to embrace the suck, if you will.
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Well, I was just going to say your story sounds like a recruiting video for the
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Navy SEALs and their motto is to embrace the suck.
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So is it okay?
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Yeah, it s not for everybody.
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And that is okay.
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We just want a few has them, as they say in the military, a few good men.
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Well, that team that you played on at North Carolina had everyone from Michael Jordan, Sam Perkins, James Worthy, Brad Doherty.
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I, the list goes on.
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All of you could have played in the NBA.
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All of you were very gifted physically.
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thing I wanted to understand is oftentimes I think ego comes from insecurity.
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And with that type of group of people, you could have had a ton of ego tearing you guys apart.
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What caused that not to happen?
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Well, first of all, I do believe ego is indirect proportion to insecurity.
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The deeper your insecurity, the higher level of ego you have.
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I think that goes back to Coach Smith.
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In the recruiting process, you have to evaluate people, evaluate behaviors.
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So I was talking to somebody about this the other day.
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I m an executive coach through an organization called Vistage, which is the oldest executive coaching organization in the country.
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And he was talking about, what do you look for?
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And I think these are important things to ask in interviews, behavioral type questions, because
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We don t often.
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We screw it up.
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We say, oh, yeah, that seemed like a good person.
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Nice guy, nice girl.
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Would love to have them in my organization.
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And then you realize they don t show up on time.
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They sulk.
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They re energy suckers, not energy givers.
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Well, you didn t really do your research.
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So Coach Smith, they would study you, like they would ask.
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They would watch how you behaved.
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And a friend of mine, a client yesterday, said, well, what did you look for besides the way they shot the ball and their stats?
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I said, I wanted to see how they walked to the bench.
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How did they take instruction from the coach?
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When they were subbed out, did they throw a towel and kick the chair?
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Or did they sit on the bench next to the coaches, listen, and did they cheer for their teammates?
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What were they like in a huddle?
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What were they like taking water from a manager?
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What did they do when they finished with the cup?
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Did they throw it at the manager?
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Did they drop it?
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Did they leave it?
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Did they pick it up and put in the trash?
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Those little things matter because they show up, especially under stress.
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You know, I happen to be watching The Last Dance for just coincidence.
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And one of the things that was interesting to me as I was preparing for this is I knew you were going to talk about the triangle.
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And it s interesting because for the early part of Michael Jordan s career at Chicago, pretty much the entire team was built off of giving Michael the ball.
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But when Phil Knight took over as the head coach, he implemented something called the triangle offense, which de-emphasized Michael in many ways and made it more about finding the person who was open on the court.
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And you would think a change like that could be very difficult to implement.
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What do you think led to that success of getting the players and especially Michael on board with that new philosophy?
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Because as a coach, I imagine that could be very difficult to do.
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Well, change is difficult.
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Most people don t like change.
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And I had the pleasure of talking to Michael about this about a year and a half ago.
2
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I played golf with him and we had a long dinner and we talked about things like this.
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When, and he averaged, I think that year prior 35 points a game, but a couple of things, one, Michael came from a college program that was successful, where the game was based on sharing the ball.
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So he understood that what it took to win now it s, can you trust your teammates?
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And then is there a system in place that will put the team in position to be successful?
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And then he could still get his 32 points.
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Like Michael s a smart guy.
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And he did the math.
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He said, well, if I, I ll get to the foul line 12 times, I ll make 10.
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So that s 10 points right there.
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I ll get the ball in this position.
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That s another 15 points.
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And then I ll get five more points off of offensive rebounds.
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If I go 10 times, like he had it broken down, he knew that he could average 30 to 32 points within that offense.
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and I think believed that it was what the team needed, and especially with the growth of guys like Scottie Pippen, where now we had some people around him, John Paxson could shoot, Steve Kerr can shoot, some guys around him that could contribute and make plays, and it wasn t just him.
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Yeah, I always thought it was remarkable that set of people who hated the Detroit Pistons, you got to face it.
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They, those two teams did not like each other to take probably the most hated person on the team.
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They hated the most Dennis Rodman and then welcome him with open arms.
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That had to be just an incredible feat to see.
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We talked about that.
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First of all, as you say that I think of the book team of rivals, which is about Abe Lincoln.
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And how when he became president, he filled his cabinet with people that were running against him, that said bad things about him.
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But he wanted to win.
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He wanted to do the right thing for the country.
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So he was secure enough to surround himself with people that were competitors of his.
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And I think they respected that, and he respected them.
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With Rodman, Michael tells the story that Phil wanted Rodman, Michael wanted Rodman,
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Scotty didn t want Rodman.
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So I guess Scotty got outvoted, but they could manage Rodman.
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And I think with Phil Jackson and Michael was strong enough leader, strong enough personality and Dennis would respect that.
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And I think Rodman wanted to win again.
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And because I think he was in San Antonio at the time and things weren t going well in San Antonio.
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Michael tells this is such great self-awareness.
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All right.
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This is.
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people think of always great people are great athletes the best of the best are smart as heck too so michael told scotty when they got dennis rodman listen scotty rodman s identity is defense and rebounds so if we re in the vicinity of dennis and a rebound comes off the rim let him get it
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Okay.
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Don t take that away from him.
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Even though we want to get triple doubles, we want to get double digits and points, rebounds and assists for the good of the team and good at Dennis, let Dennis get the rebound.
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And he said in New Jersey, Scotty and I forgot about that.
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And Dennis didn t have any, many rebounds and he ended up getting two technicals kicked out of the game.
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and later came to his room and apologized.
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That self-awareness, understanding that you can t do it alone.
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It s a team sport, right?
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There s an African proverb, if you want to go fast, go alone.
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If you want to go far, go together.
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So Michael came from that type of environment at North Carolina, and he understood it.
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And so then this is the genius of Phil Jackson.
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And I think this was in the show.
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Dennis wanted a break.
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I think it was like January.
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And he wanted a break from the team.
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And Phil said to Dennis, well, you ll have to talk to Michael.
2
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You ll have to get Michael s approval.
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How about that?
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Here s the head coach saying, you have to get Michael s approval.
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How brilliant was that?
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So Michael gets involved in a conversation.
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And he says, heck, if anybody deserves a break during the middle of the season, it s me.
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But Michael was aware enough, had the emotional intelligence to understand that Dennis needed this break.
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And Dennis s role was limited.
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It was important, but it was limited.
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You don t need Dennis to shoot or really be involved in the offense so much, except from the rebounding.
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They agreed to give Dennis like a weekend in Vegas or wherever he wanted, but it was Vegas.
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Well, the weekend turned to four days to five days.
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Who flies to Vegas, shows up, wakes up Dennis and the companion in the bed and tells Dennis, pack your bags, we re going back to Chicago.
2
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Michael, that s leadership.
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So Dennis gets back to Chicago, and Jackson, Phil Jackson wants to get make sure Dennis is in shape.
2
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So they do this thing, you probably can t say it anymore, an Indian run, where the last person in the line, they re running around the court has to race to the front.
2
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And then, so it s continual, the last person races to the front of the line.
2
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So you re getting some sprinting in and they re like, we couldn t catch Dennis.
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Dennis has been in Vegas for seven days and he s still in a freakish shape, but it takes a team led organization is the best.
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led organization.
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When you have leadership that hold each other accountable, that s when real magic happens.
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Well, that leads me into asking, you made the transition from player to coach.
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How did your experience as a player influence your approach to the way you coached?
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Yeah, that s a great question.
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I think a couple of things.
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One, I think you have to answer why to a player.
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You can t just tell somebody, do it this way.
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You got to explain the why.
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And when I played back then, we had seniors and coach Smith didn t really like you asking questions in practice.
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So he would just do it.
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He was very efficient and he explained the why some, but as a young player, I think that it was really important to understand the why, because then you ll be more committed to it.
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I would try to be very cognizant of that.
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And then as a player, one of the things I was attracted to coach Smith, I was a smart player.
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I like to use my brain and I like to outsmart the opponent.
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I like to trick it up a little bit.
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I wanted to throw in some variations that kept me interested as a player.
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And I didn t want to just do the same thing every day, every practice, every game.
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So I like to throw in some wrinkles to surprise the opponent and adjust to trends during the season.
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And when I had players that could make those adjustments,
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Uh, that was a lot of fun for me.
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My team at Notre Dame could really do it.
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And ironically, well, my team s in North Carolina.
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I m thinking of a play right now at Maryland that we put in and in the timeout, just a little wrinkle and we got a bucket.
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And then my team at North Carolina, my last year.
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I had three freshmen, two sophomores, extremely smart team led by Jawad Williams, Jackie Manuel, Sean May, Raymond Felton, and Rashad McCants.
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And we were playing Kansas in the garden.
3
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My assistant, Doug Wojcik, said, hey, why don t we do this?
3
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And we drew it up in a timeout.
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We went out and executed.
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We got a bucket.
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That s a lot of fun as a coach.
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Well, speaking on these lines of coaching, you had a meteoric rise.
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You first worked under coach McKillop, who you talked about at Davidson.
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And I remember Steph Curry being there because he was at Davidson during the time that I lived in Mooresville.
3
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Then you went to Kansas and got to work under coach Roy Williams before you became a coach at Notre Dame.
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Can you provide some of the inner workings, some of the insights, the inner workings of a big time basketball program and the power struggles that are happening behind the scenes?
3
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Because I think it s something that a viewer probably has no idea happens.
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Yeah.
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When you say power struggles, you re talking about within the program or outside the program.
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I m talking more outside the program.
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Like what the coach has to coach the team, but there s this whole other aspect of being a coach inside an athletic system that I think people don t understand.
3
SPEAKER_01
Plus the alumni, et cetera.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, no, it s a large enterprise.
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As an executive coach, when I took over coaching early on, people would say, well, what do you know about running a business?
3
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You re just a basketball coach.
3
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And I said, well, I was the head basketball coach at Notre Dame.
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I was the head basketball coach at North Carolina.
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We had large budgets, multimillion dollar budgets.
3
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We drove large revenue, multimillion dollar revenue.
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We had a board of directors.
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I had to deal with the media, attract talent, train talent, retain talent, fire talent.
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I had five direct reports and an enterprise of close to 50 in terms of headcount, full-time employees, if you will.
3
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So as I talk,
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Along those lines, the people I was talking to would nod their head like, oh, OK, I get it.
3
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You are the CEO of North Carolina basketball.
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I m like, exactly.
3
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So on a college campus, there s a lot of dynamics.
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And one is the professors.
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The professors, I remember when I first signed my contract at North Carolina, I was walking to a sporting event, a soccer or lacrosse game, and there was a professor walking next to me.
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And he said, nice contract, or I saw your contract.
3
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on the paper because it s public domain at a state university.
3
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And I said, I ll tell you what, I ll trade you my contract for your tenure.
3
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Made him quiet.
3
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You re under the gun.
3
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I think a lot of people don t embrace the fact that whether you like it or not, in a college campus, the sports programs are the front porch of the university.
3
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They are the marketing arm of the university.
3
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And once people get it,
3
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embrace it and then you could have success you don t want to fight that now as a coach you have to be humbly confident i was trying to coin this phrase confident humility humbly confident but you have to have a stance that hey you know yeah this if we have a good football program at north carolina or good basketball program
3
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Look what the impact that Nick Saban has had on the city of Tuscaloosa and admissions at Alabama.
3
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Like that school now attracts students from all over the country.
3
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I was down there last year for the Iron Bowl, and my brother and I were there.
3
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And we bumped into somebody and asked this young lady, a student, where are you from?
3
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She said, Long Island.
3
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I said, Long Island?
3
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That s where I m from.
3
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I m like, why would you go to the University of Alabama?
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I wanted to go a place where there was good football and exciting and came down here to visit the weather, the campus.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, that s Nick Saban.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so he s getting paid $10 million a year.
3
SPEAKER_00
And people say, well, I can t believe he s getting paid $10 million a year.
3
SPEAKER_00
But would you pay an advertising company $10 million a year to attract students from all over the country and raise the profile of your university?
3
SPEAKER_00
Probably.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s real value in sports, but not a lot of people, not everybody on campus sees it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And there s some jealousy because you go back to the ego topic.
3
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We re all
3
SPEAKER_00
little kids dressed up as adults playing in the sandbox.
3
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Okay, everyone has a default emotion of that s my toy.
3
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That s mine.
3
SPEAKER_00
You can t play with it.
3
SPEAKER_00
They want to protect their domain.
3
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So when somebody comes in,
3
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like a Nick Saban, like me.
3
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It s important that you are confident but you have humility and that you try to create goodwill on campus because that professor across campus who s making, let s say, I don t know, let s say $150,000 and you re making $1.5 million.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s a chance for them to be jealous and have animosity.
3
SPEAKER_00
So how do you approach them?
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, Bob McKillop used to say, kill them with kindness.
3
SPEAKER_00
So just be nice, be humble, and show appreciation for the job they do in educating the student body.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, well, Matt, thank you for sharing that.
3
SPEAKER_01
And one of the books that I have used throughout my career, the first 90 days, and I have found that when I have used that and the principles in it, that I have had tremendous success in the roles that I go into.
3
SPEAKER_01
But there are times when I have applied perhaps the 90 days too quickly.
3
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And one of the things that I ve learned is that sometimes
3
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The first impressions that you make in those 90 days are very hard to undo.
3
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Have you ever experienced something like this?
3
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Oh, 100%.
3
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That s where I look back at my time at North Carolina when I took over.
3
SPEAKER_00
Managing change is an art form.
3
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And you can t do it the same way at every institution you work at.
3
SPEAKER_00
I wrote a book, Rebound from Pain to Passion, and I talk about the first 90 days.
3
SPEAKER_00
And at Notre Dame list the six knows of leadership KNOWS and I use an acronym that I made up called stevit s t e v i t I make a story up that it s a Eastern European kid that I recruited.
3
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A seven footer with grades named Stevitt.
3
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So you have to know yourself.
3
SPEAKER_00
You have to know your team.
3
SPEAKER_00
You have to know your environment.
3
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That s where this comes up.
3
SPEAKER_00
You got to know what environment are you stepping into?
3
SPEAKER_00
Have they had success?
3
SPEAKER_00
Or was there a longtime CEO or head coach that was beloved?
3
SPEAKER_00
Or was there a short timer?
3
SPEAKER_00
that they didn t really feel loyal to.
3
SPEAKER_00
What s the people on campus?
3
SPEAKER_00
Do they support athletics or are they fighting athletics?
3
SPEAKER_00
So you have to know your environment, and then you have to know your vision, you have to know your industry, and then you have to mine for the truth.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so the environment, when I took over at Notre Dame, they wanted change.
3
SPEAKER_00
So when I instilled change, they supported it.
3
SPEAKER_00
When I got to North Carolina, they had 36 years of continued success
4
SPEAKER_01
under just two coaches and they were both still in the building.
4
SPEAKER_01
They did not want change.
4
SPEAKER_01
They didn t think they needed change.
4
SPEAKER_01
However, they did.
4
SPEAKER_01
They just didn t know it.
4
SPEAKER_01
The program had gotten a little soft.
4
SPEAKER_01
They needed to instill some toughness, some change.
4
SPEAKER_01
They didn t lift weights on a regular basis.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I came in and brought my staff with me, which I was told I could.
4
SPEAKER_01
I asked a question of the athletic director.
4
SPEAKER_01
Um, but that was shunned upon and I changed the physical plan.
4
SPEAKER_01
It needed to be updated.
4
SPEAKER_01
Recruits look at things like your office and locker rooms, and they hadn t changed the office or locker room in years, making those changes.
4
SPEAKER_01
People took that some as disrespectful to the traditions of the program.
4
SPEAKER_01
So looking back, I should have gone slower with change.
4
SPEAKER_01
However, in basketball, you generally get a new job in March.
4
SPEAKER_01
I got this job in July.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I had to really...
4
SPEAKER_01
put things on hyper speed, and that just exacerbated the process of managing change.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it went too fast.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I had four secretaries.
4
SPEAKER_01
Who has four secretaries?
4
SPEAKER_01
And so that had been there probably an average of 20 years each.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I did not manage change properly.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that really was tough to shake.
4
SPEAKER_01
The only way to overcome that is massive success, which I had my first year.
4
SPEAKER_01
We were number one in the country.
4
SPEAKER_01
We beat Duke at Duke.
4
SPEAKER_01
We were tied for the ACC championship.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then my second year, we had the worst record in Carolina basketball history.
4
SPEAKER_01
So now the floodgates could open.
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, I can relate to everything you re saying.
4
SPEAKER_00
I ended up taking a job.
4
SPEAKER_00
I had been working at Lowe s for many years, right in your own backyard.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then I took a job to work as a senior executive at Dell and coming into Dell, Michael had told me that the organization had gotten stagnant and that they needed someone to come in and institute change.
4
SPEAKER_00
The thing I didn t realize going to your Know Your Environment was I didn t really understand Michael s leadership style, which was he is pretty passive in the way he leads.
4
SPEAKER_00
Although he wanted these things to happen, he wasn t going to get into conflict to
4
SPEAKER_00
see that he got his way.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so what I faced when I came in was I was trying to change a battleship and do it in ways that were going to rapidly get us to where we needed to be because underneath he was trying to change the whole company and we needed new systems and processes in order to do that.
4
SPEAKER_00
But what I underestimated was the fact that so many of the leaders had been there for so long and they loved the way that things were as they stood.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so I didn t realize the barriers I was going to run into.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I think one of the fundamental mistakes I made, and I know you talk about in the book, not retaining Phil Ford, I had an employee named Becky, who we re still very good friends to this day, but I ended up letting her go.
4
SPEAKER_00
And as I look back,
4
SPEAKER_00
I really should have retained her because she carried much more weight than I thought in the way that people perceived the organization.
4
SPEAKER_00
And she was this tie, if I would have brought her on board more between the past and what I wanted to do in the future.
4
SPEAKER_00
But I know exactly what you re talking about because I started to try and push things too quickly and underestimated the organization s willingness to follow me.
4
SPEAKER_01
You have to inspire followership that people aren t going to follow a title.
4
SPEAKER_01
They re going to follow a person that inspires them, that they respect.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it was really probably nothing against you.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s probably nothing against me.
4
SPEAKER_01
We were put in tough situations.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I m sure looking back, even though I m a literal person.
4
SPEAKER_01
So if you say you want change and I get excited about instituting change, I m going to institute change because that s what you said.
4
SPEAKER_01
But sometimes you have to read between the lines.
4
SPEAKER_01
And somebody like Michael Dell says, I want change.
4
SPEAKER_01
He probably really does want change.
4
SPEAKER_01
But just don t make it so abrupt that it rocks the world of Dell and annoys my people.
4
SPEAKER_01
So how do you do it tactfully?
4
SPEAKER_01
subtly, as you talked about, you alluded to navigating a battleship in the harbor, turning a battleship takes a long time.
4
SPEAKER_01
But I wanted to, I was driving a speedboat.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was driving.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I was driving one of those long cigarette boats.
4
SPEAKER_01
And people were falling off the back drowning.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that cost me my job.
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, Matt, I know personally it s taken me years and even now I m still not over what happened at Dell because it was something that I considered to be a family.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I know for you, this idea of the Carolina family took on even more meaning because you were there since you were 18 years old.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it had been a group that you had respected and had been a proud member of.
4
SPEAKER_00
Can you explain as you do in the book, the devastating emotional impact this event had on you?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
As you touched on, it still bothers me.
4
SPEAKER_01
There s still moments and there s always triggers a heck for you.
4
SPEAKER_01
Every time you look at a Dell computer probably triggers you.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so for me, North Carolina, the university, the basketball program, college basketball, those triggers tough emotions and can put me heading into a black hole.
4
SPEAKER_01
And at first, I tried to be a tough guy and act like it s no big deal.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s just part of the business.
4
SPEAKER_01
And things happen.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I was working with an executive coach at the time.
4
SPEAKER_01
And she said, no, you trusted this institution, these men, when you were 17 years old.
4
SPEAKER_01
And now you feel betrayed by a father figure.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so that made me realize that what I was feeling was real.
4
SPEAKER_01
It allowed me to deal with it a little bit better.
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And then I had to talk to Coach Williams.
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I wanted to talk to Coach Smith, but his health wasn t good.
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I probably waited too long, but I needed to be able to share with Coach Williams what I was feeling.
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He didn t have to agree with that, but I just needed to be heard.
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That was a big moment for me.
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I cried like a baby in his office, but he needed to know
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And I needed to let that out.
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I felt a lot better.
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And then I ve had to deal with depression.
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Like when I was good for two years, because I was like America s guest.
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I was doing TV, playing golf, dabbling in real estate.
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I was having a good time.
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And all of a sudden, I took a job.
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I took the job at FAU, ironically.
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They just went to the Final Four.
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And I remember right after the press conference, I went to my office.
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I didn t have a secretary.
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So I go from having four secretaries to no secretaries.
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I go to my office to pull out a drawer to get a pen, and the drawer breaks and falls on my lap and pens go flying.
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And I started to cry that two years prior, I was the head coach of North Carolina.
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I had four secretaries to get me any kind of pen I wanted.
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I was flying private planes.
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And now I m at FAU, which was one of the worst jobs in college basketball at the time.
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I dealt serious depression.
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For several months, thought about quitting the job.
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My wife wouldn t let me quit.
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She s a tough lady.
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She s like, you took this job.
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You have these assistants.
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You can t do that to them.
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I m like, you re right.
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But I was crippling is crippling.
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And then finally the season started and I realized I love basketball.
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Whether it was coaching basketball at North Carolina or FAU, I had the opportunity to do this coach basketball and influence young men.
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So for the listener who may be tuning in, who might find themselves in a place that you and I were, it is not easy to rebound.
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Your head gets squarely in your way.
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You lose confidence.
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You start doubting your worthiness.
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How did you find that inner strength, encouraged to seek help?
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And what advice would you give to someone who s maybe in the same position you and I were?
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Well, I think the most important person you need to talk to is God.
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You need to find your faith.
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For me, that s God.
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It s Jesus.
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It s leaning on my faith.
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And I think that God probably hit me over the head in 2003.
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It s too much, too fast.
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You re losing your perspective.
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You re not putting me first.
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I have different plans for you, and I do believe that when I go to heaven and I ask Him about what happened in 2003, that s basically going to be the story.
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So, I think it s important for me, I need maybe to be humbled and get closer to God and have a relationship with Him, and along with my wife and my kids, I think putting things in perspective
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Your identity is so wrapped up in what you do, and I think most successful people, they take on that identity, become obsessed with that, and that s not always healthy.
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So there wasn t a lot of balance in my life.
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Good friend John Black really put me on the path for the leadership journey that I went on.
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We need to have a personal board of directors.
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Who s on your personal board of directors?
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I recommend having God, your spouse,
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And then just maybe a financial person, somebody who, you know, people that really care about you, have your best interests and are going to be honest with you.
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So John Black directed me to UVA to Kara Weber and executive coach there.
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I worked with her.
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I went to Wharton work with a Fran Johnston and Jerry Bell couple to name a few and got excited about the lead leadership space.
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and realized that if I had taken some of these classes, and learn some of these lessons, especially on emotional intelligence, I might have, I might still be at North Carolina.
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And that was 20 years ago.
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I m 61, I can still be the head coach at North Carolina.
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When then I got into executive coaching, and I wrote a book rebound from pain to passion, leadership lessons learned, because I want to help people avoid the landmines I stepped on.
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Well, Matt, something you just brought up triggered a thought for me, and that is you and I have kids that are relatively about the same age.
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And I know my son, who is the same age as Jay Martin, they re both 25 now, asks me all the time in this world where so much seems to be changing and
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It seems like automation, AI, whatever you want to call it, is going to disrupt the way that their careers are going to take shape.
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What would you say you ve learned are four or five of the fundamental skills that they should look to take on that could resist any type of change that may come their way?
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Well, I think you don t necessarily want to resist change.
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You want to embrace it.
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I think it s like riding a wave.
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You could resist the wave and get crushed along the shore.
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You can get up on top of it and ride it.
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I think the thing that comes to mind when you asked me that question is you need to be curious.
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You need to be a lifelong learner.
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You need to consume books, podcasts, articles.
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You need to embrace AI.
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At Vistage, we have great speakers.
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We had a gentleman named Severin Sorenson come speak to two of my groups last week on artificial intelligence.
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And get excited about it.
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Don t fear it.
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Get excited about the change and try to be out in front of it and understand how it can benefit you and your organization.
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and we re quick to when there s a lack of communication our default emotion is negative so embrace it study it play with it get chat gpt it s 19 a month start developing a relationship with it really it s almost like a person
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and you ll see how it can help your life and your business.
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And then you ll be empowered in your organization.
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People are afraid, oh, it s going to take over my job.
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Can t do everything.
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It can t move.
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It can t.
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There s no body language to it.
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You re still going to need humans.
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And it s every other technological advancement we ve had, going back to the automobile, going back to cell phones, going back to electricity, more jobs were created.
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Yeah, there were some jobs lost, but more jobs were created as a result.
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And I believe that AI will be the same.
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Yeah, it s like going back to the steam engine, which really brought on the industrial evolution or even back to the printing press.
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And at those times people thought those changes were so invasive and look at how they ve shaped the world.
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I always tell in addition to curiosity, creativity aspect, the need more now than ever to be vulnerable, the emotional intelligence equation fits in and then you re going to need to be adaptable.
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But I think it all starts with curiosity.
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Well, Matt, one of the things, my dad is a huge basketball fan, just enormous.
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To this day, still, I think his favorite season is watching college basketball.
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And he always wanted me to be a basketball player.
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And I, unfortunately, don t have the height you did.
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And even though I tried and tried, I was just never that great at it.
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And in the end, it didn t interest me.
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And Kathleen Martin,
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told me a similar story about your son, if I have it right, his name is Tucker, that you wanted him to play basketball, but he wasn t really interested.
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What happens when you re a parent and you face a situation like this?
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Because I know as the son, I felt like I was disappointing my dad.
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Oh, yeah, well, first of all, I didn t push basketball, my son.
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We introduced it.
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I think that s key.
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I was blessed.
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My dad was a minor league baseball player and signed me up for baseball.
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I don t know what grade I was in, probably second playing baseball.
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I liked it OK.
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And then he signed me up for basketball camp.
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And I love basketball.
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And then I quit baseball in sixth grade.
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There was no pushback from him.
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My son, we introduced him, we d have basketball camps.
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He was around the game.
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Signed him up for church league.
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He played in Boca when we were in Boca Raton at FAU.
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And then one day the league was starting and my wife said that Tucker said he didn t want to play.
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So I said, I ll ask him.
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So I said, Tucker, mom said tomorrow s basketball practice.
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and he was probably six maybe he s older but he was sitting in a booster seat in the back seat and i remember being on brawley school road you could relate to that at a light at morrison plantation and i m looking in the rearview mirror and he puts his hand out like this and he said dad i told mom no and here s like a six-year-old telling me no and i m thinking like in a cartoon character there s above his head that says hey
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dumbass what part of no don t you get and i remember just saying yeah no problem you don t have to play and so uh he didn t and he played some football he picked up lacrosse when we moved to dallas and fell in love with lacrosse he ended up being a high school all-american and played d1 lacrosse at bellarmine so
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I don t think you should push your kids.
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I think you should introduce them to things and let them find what they love.
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My daughter loves swimming.
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She swam.
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And then she ended up rowing at North Carolina.
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She played basketball one season in Dallas when she was in sixth grade.
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So neither one of them played.
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And I was OK with that, just as my dad was OK with me not playing baseball.
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Matt, I have just two short questions left for you.
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Looking back at your career, what would be your biggest piece of advice that you would give a person starting out their career on the one or two things that if you could, you might ve done differently?
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Yeah, I think we ll go back to the stevet, right?
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You got to know yourself.
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know yourself, and then know your team.
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And I m big on personality assessments.
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I m certified in DISC.
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That really hit me in 2003 when I worked with Kara Weber.
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I did Myers-Briggs assessment and realized that not everyone thinks like me, nor should they.
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Not everyone views things like I do.
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There s different perspectives.
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And I think that s probably one of the biggest things.
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And once you understand that you understand your team, I think going slow, I m a fast paced, hard driving guy going a little slower and really having a coaching mentality with everybody, not just your players.
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And I interviewed a gentleman, David Novak of Yum Brands, and he referred to his team as coaches.
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And I think that s a different mindset you have when you re coaching your employees versus when you re the boss.
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And self-awareness is the first key to leadership.
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Where are your blind spots?
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Because we all have them.
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And the better you can understand them, the better off you ll be.
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And then the second thing,
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Really, and this is the steve it and the last piece of steve it is the second T. Which is truth, you got a mind for the truth, because if you don t manage the truth to manage you right out the door.
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So really dig for the truth, how do people really feel about you and the processes you re putting in place now communicate communicate communicate so you know those basically know yourself know your team.
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know the truth and you really got to communicate.
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You can t
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can t over communicate.
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Okay.
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And then lastly, Matt, uh, what are you most proud of in your life and career and what legacy do you hope to leave?
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Yeah, great, Chris.
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The thing I m most proud of is that I gave up alcohol in 1988.
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I m an alcoholic.
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I had a problem with it and realized it.
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Went, got help, went to AA, and hadn t had a drink since.
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And 11 years later, I became the head coach at Notre Dame.
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I was working on Wall Street at the time.
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And without that, without giving up alcohol, I wouldn t have found my career that I loved.
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I wouldn t have found my wife that I love.
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I wouldn t have the family that I have.
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And that s the thing I m most proud of in my life.
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And I think that the legacy I d like to leave is that you need to be able to rebound.
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You need to be able to model a behavior you want with your children and bounce back.
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Because life is hard.
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You re going to get hit in the face a lot.
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and your kids are watching, and you want them to develop resiliency and be able to bounce back from challenges that life will throw you.
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Well, Matt, it was such an honor to have you on today.
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If a listener wanted to learn more about you, where s the best place for them to go?
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Yeah, they go to my website, dohertycoaching.com, dohertycoaching.com, D-O-H-E-R-T-Y.
6
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Well, Matt, thank you so much for being a guest on the show today.
6
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It was such an honor.
6
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Thank you, John.
6
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I thoroughly enjoyed that interview with Matt Doherty, and I wanted to thank Matt and Stephanie McKinley for the honor and privilege of having them appear on today s show.
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Links to all things Matt will be in the show notes.
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Please use our website links if you purchase any of the books from the guests that we feature.
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Links to all things Matt will be in the show notes at passionstruck.com.
6
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Please use our website links if you purchase any of the books from the guests that we feature here on the show.
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All proceeds go to supporting the show.
6
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Videos are on YouTube at both our main channel at John R. Miles and our Clips channel at Passionstruck Clips.
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Please go check them out and subscribe.
6
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Advertiser deals and discount codes are in one convenient place at passionstruck.com slash deals.
6
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I also wanted to tell you about the Passionstruck Challenge which we just launched.
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This is 50 weeks of custom curated challenges that I will provide you
6
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to help you step more boldly into your journey of becoming PassionStruck.
6
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Just go to passionstruck.com forward slash challenges to join the challenge.
6
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And if you re interested in signing up for our weekly newsletter, Live Intentionally, you can do so also on the PassionStruck website.
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If you re interested in our work-related newsletter, Work Intentionally, you can find that on LinkedIn, and you can find me on all the social platforms at John R. Miles, where I post daily.
6
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You re about to hear a preview of the PassionStruck podcast interview that I did with Dr. Mark Hyman.
6
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We re at the cusp of a revolution in healthcare.
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And Dr. Hyman is here to guide us on the exciting journey into the future of health.
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We also explore his new company, Function Health, and also his pioneering concept of using food as medicine, a notion that redefines our relationship between our diets and health.
6
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Increasing data is showing that our inflammatory diet
6
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is affecting our mental health in profound ways.
6
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Ultra processed foods have been linked to depression, to suicide, to anxiety, to even things like bipolar disease, schizophrenia.
6
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Sounds crazy.
6
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This is not my opinion anymore.
6
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I basically came up with this idea decades ago when I wrote my book, Ultra Mind Solution, about how the body affects the brain.
6
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But we re seeing this disease of despair and increasing mental health crisis and it s dwarfing all our other problems and it s leading us to make bad choices.
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It s affecting our brain by causing inflammation in the brain.
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The problem with that is that our impulse control and our executive function, the adult in the room,
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doesn t have control over the three-year-old in our brain.
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And that s why we make bad choices.
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That s why our biology is hijacked.
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Our brain chemistry is hijacked.
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Our mood is hijacked.
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Our metabolism is hijacked.
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Our taste buds are hijacked by the food industry.
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And so we really have to learn how to take back our health.
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And part of it is starting to understand what s happening under the hood.
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The fee for the show is that you share it with family or friends when you find something useful or interesting.
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If you know someone who could use Matt s advice on how to rebound, then definitely share this episode with your friends and family members.
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Greatest compliment that you can give us is to share the show with those that you love and care about.
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In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so that you can live what you listen.
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And until next week, go out there and become passion struck.