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My friend, I am such a big believer that your mindset is everything.
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It can really dictate if your life has meaning, has value, and you feel fulfilled, or if you feel exhausted, drained, and like you re never going to be enough.
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Our brand new book, The Greatness Mindset, just hit the New York Times Bestseller back-to-back weeks.
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And I m so excited to hear from so many of you who ve bought the book, who ve read it, and have finished it already, and are getting incredible results from the lessons in the book.
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If you haven t got a copy yet,
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You ll learn how to build a plan for greatness through powerful exercises and toolkits designed to propel your life forward.
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This is the book I wish I had when I was 20, struggling, trying to figure out life.
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10 years ago at 30, trying to figure out transitions in my life and the book I m glad I have today for myself.
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Make sure to get a copy at lewishouse.com slash 2023 mindset to get your copy today.
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Again, lewishouse.com slash 2023 mindset to get a copy today.
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Also, the book is on audible now, so you can get it on audio book as well.
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And don t forget to follow the show.
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So you never miss an episode.
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We are all suffering under the same people and we need to come together in this fight otherwise nothing s going to change for anyone and people are just going to keep on dying and if we don t believe in change and if we do not move for actual change then nothing s going to happen.
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We are not going to open or change anyone s mind and we are not going to secure our freedoms.
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Welcome to the School of Greatness.
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My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur.
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And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness.
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Thanks for spending some time with me today.
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Now let the class begin.
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Welcome back, everyone in the School of Greatness.
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Very excited about our guest.
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We have the inspiring Jamila Jamil in the house.
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Thank you so much for coming back.
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Very excited about this.
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You ve given me a jolt of energy just seeing you.
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It s been a few years since I ve seen you.
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We were talking about how I met you, I think, around 8 to 10 years ago.
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When both of us were kind of just starting in our own journeys, you ve exploded on TV and multiple podcasts and movies and all these different things.
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You continue to explode.
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As have you.
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In a positive way.
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But you ve also gone through a number of different journeys.
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Since when I first met you, when you just came off of a BBC radio show to now being a star on TV show, hosting shows, hosting podcasts, to being all for advocacy in a number of ways and communicating a certain way, to talking about body shaming and mental health, to now kind of transitioning into doing things in a different way.
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And it s been interesting and inspiring
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It s funny at times and unique to see how you ve evolved, how you communicate, how you create content, the success you ve made and everything.
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But when we were just talking off camera, you were talking about how there are some big transitions and changes that are happening.
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It sounds like.
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What is the biggest thing that has changed for you in the last few years?
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I think in the last few years, especially during the pandemic, I watched the way that, you know, like I m a liberal and I exist within social justice circles and I have been a loud member of those circles.
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Can I swear on this?
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Sure.
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Yeah.
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Loud.
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Loud meaning what?
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Like on social media?
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Yeah.
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Loud, direct, forceful, sometimes with a pitchfork in hand, especially back in like 2018.
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I have noticed our community move towards a place that doesn t resonate with me at all.
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And I feel as though I have some sort of responsibility as to being a part of the wave that created this, but it feels like Frankenstein.
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where I had no idea what it was going to become.
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I thought we were fighting for justice.
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I thought we were boycotting the bad guy and that we were all in this together.
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And what I ve seen is both our groups picking each other apart, not really dealing with much bigger issues because we re so busy holding each other to these outrageously unattainable standards of moral perfection.
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But also it s become so punitive and for a group that... that...
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talk so much about inclusivity and diversity, we don t have a lot of inclusion or diversity of thought anymore.
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And that s just not what I want.
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It s not what I signed up for.
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And it s not my way of being like, this is me leaving the liberals.
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I will always stand for those same values.
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But the way in which we re going about things is
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is harmful and it s not going to change anything.
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And if we don t believe in change and if we do not move for actual change and incremental change rather than always striving for immediate perfection.
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then nothing s going to happen.
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We are not going to open or change anyone s mind, and we are not going to secure our freedoms.
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And we are seeing in broad daylight more and more rights being taken away as we continue to ostracize the people that we most need to reach across to.
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And I have not always done the best job in reaching across to those people, but for the past few years, I have been imperfectly working towards, you know, chiseling down my very sharp tongue
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and trying to become more non-violent in my communication so that we can all come together because we re so much more in common than we have, than we have in differences.
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And most of our differences come from places of fear or come from places of completely different information we re receiving.
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All of our opinions are just a product of the
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information that we receive, and we know now that social media algorithms are manipulating our feeds to see more of what we re already, what we ve even just looked on just out of curiosity, has now become our full feed.
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And so we re seeing two completely different versions of the same events, of the same people, of the same actions.
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And then, because we don t realize that we re seeing two opposing sides of each story, we think the other group is stupid.
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It s so sad because most of us are facing the main things, like the problems with climate, which I know some people don t believe in, but it s getting hot as **** around the world, so something s happening.
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We are seeing
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the housing crisis, the homelessness crisis, the healthcare crisis in this country, the food crisis, the big sugar crisis.
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We have all of these terrible, we have this terrible minority of people who get to control the masses and who none of us come together and organize against and hold accountable because we re all so busy staring at and fighting each other.
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And that feels awfully convenient and quite scary because that means the actual bad guy who s got none of our best interests, whether you are right, left, independent, whatever,
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we are all suffering under the same people and we need to come together in this fight otherwise nothing s going to change for anyone and people are just going to keep on dying and getting sick and becoming unhappier and suicides are going to continue to rise like this is not my paranoia we have hard statistics that prove that this country is falling apart
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And I m not like one to, I don t like the rise in just shitting on America because I ve been around the world and I ve seen that there s a lot of things that they do wrong and they re not perfect, but there s also a lot of things that they do right, a lot of freedoms that people have here that they don t have in many countries around the world.
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A lot more opportunity here than there is anywhere.
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So I don t think shitting on America is the right way forward.
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I think it s just about identifying why is everyone so angry and so sad?
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And how do we figure out what we have in common here?
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and come together and work this out as a nation.
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This is inspiring.
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You just gave me a coffee, so I m unwell.
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I didn t expect this incredibly inspiring opening dialogue, but that was amazing.
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And I m curious, you just said a lot of people are angry.
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Why do you think you were so angry four or five years ago when you were marching with a pitchfork in certain areas and using a sharp tongue like you mentioned in certain ways and fighting in a certain style?
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Why were you so angry?
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And also, why do you think so many people are angry today?
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I think, first of all, women weren t really given the mic until about 2016.
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Our problems were dismissed or laughed at.
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And we were treated appallingly in the most mainstream of arenas.
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And so in 2015, 2016, Me Too happened.
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And suddenly, the mic was pointed at those of us who were willing to speak and was like, what do you have to say?
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Now, we didn t have any practice.
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We hadn t been doing this.
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We weren t all like orators.
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You know what I mean?
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Like I was a Billboard 100 DJ, radio DJ.
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I used to just count down pop songs.
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And now I was being asked for my opinion on huge social, political infrastructures.
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And it felt incredibly callous.
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to disregard that opportunity if I knew that I had the strength and at least some of the words to speak.
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But it s not even out of practice.
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This had never happened before.
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And so I think we were frustrated, we were impatient, we were exhausted, we were angry.
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We had all like generations of stored up anger, not just for ourselves, for our mothers, our grandmothers, you know, great grandmothers.
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This has just gone on for so long.
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And so it just all came out at once.
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And it all came out in a place of rage.
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And I think you see that with a lot of minorities who speak out, when they start speaking out, it s with so much aggression and passion, because they ve been waiting for such a long time to speak.
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But it doesn t all come out in the most constructive way at first, because we re only human.
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And so we re fallible and we re not perfect at communicating ourselves.
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We don t have training for this.
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I was never taught how to speak on these massive issues.
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I left school at 16.
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I just knew that the one thing I had that a lot of my peers didn t have is a complete disregard for other people to like me.
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You didn t care if people liked you.
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Didn t give a shit.
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Still don t give a shit.
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Not interested in being popular.
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I was so unpopular at school that it sort of set me up for a life of not being popular.
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And I m amazed I have as many lovely, wonderful friends as I have now.
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But outside of those friends, I have no interest in pleasing people, or making them like me, or being popular, or being approved of, or even being believed.
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Really?
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I have no interest.
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I don t know these people.
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And so it doesn t matter.
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It doesn t matter what I think of them.
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It doesn t affect their lives.
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It doesn t have to affect my life as to what they think of me.
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And so because I knew that I was, for some reason, neurologically
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separated from that.
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I had this kind of superpower to be able to take all the bullets that a lot of other people can t take.
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Because we are socialized, especially as women, especially as brown women, to be obedient and to be liked and for someone to want to marry us one day.
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And for whatever reason, for whatever I m missing socially, whatever I m socially inept at, whatever cues I can t read or disregard,
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it meant that I just felt ready.
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I felt ready for the fight.
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I wasn t ready for the fight.
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You weren t ready.
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Because I didn t know what this was going to become.
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I didn t think anyone was going to listen to me when I started speaking.
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I didn t think I was going to go viral.
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This wasn t planned.
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I was advised by everyone not to say anything at all whatsoever because it would hurt my career.
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And it certainly did at times.
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It did?
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Yeah, of course.
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I m fine now.
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But it
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it just took off, and by the time I first met you, not first met you, and by the time I first came on this podcast, I think it was like 2019, I was flying at a height, at an altitude that I could barely breathe at, right, where I had been leveraged by the industry, put on this pedestal that I knew was a trap door, and I was being hyperbolized, and everyone was, world leaders were coming up to me, getting my number and communicating,
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get me across all their different causes.
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I was speaking at the UN, I was on every single podcast, I was on every single magazine cover.
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Every panel.
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Time magazine named me as one of the 25 most influential people.
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I was on the cover of British Vogue alongside Greta Thunberg and Jane Fonda.
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I didn t know what the f*** was going on.
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And people were like, she s the feminist hero we need.
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And as soon as that came out, I was like,
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that s it.
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This is that s the end.
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Like it s the that moment you get that sickening feeling in your stomach before when you re at the top of the roller coaster before you just go all the way down.
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Wow, you re about to just plummet.
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And
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I think the tension that I had when I would bump into you or when I was on your podcast, when I was on anyone s podcast, because I had this defensiveness and knowing that this was gonna blow up in my face.
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And I wasn t congratulating myself.
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I was constantly saying from the beginning, like I m a feminist in progress.
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I left school at 16.
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Don t listen to me about everything.
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I m just figuring this out.
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I want to be a vessel of learning publicly.
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But the headlines would write so confidently about me that people mistook that for my confidence, as if I think I m the feminist hero the world needs.
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People put you on a pedestal as the chosen one.
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Yeah, and it s always a trap door, and it is a well-oiled system of specifically putting women on that kind of pedestal, so high up that it s an unsurvivable fall a lot of the time.
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And God, do we love to watch a woman fall.
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My God, do we enjoy the schadenfreude, or however you pronounce that word, of watching a woman who has been presented as being really full of herself and really proud of herself and very opinionated, watching her be humbled.
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God, I would love to understand the sociological or anthropological reasoning behind why, as a society, women, very much so included, live to watch the humbling of a woman.
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Other women.
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Other women.
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Yeah.
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Why do women love to watch other women who are successful fall rather than watch them rise?
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I don t think it s all women.
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I just think it includes women.
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I love to watch a woman rise.
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I live for it.
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But I don t see other women as my competition.
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I see myself as completely unique.
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I still think I m a piece of s**t, but I am a unique piece of s**t. I am my own piece of s**t. No one can be a piece of s**t like me.
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And that s very comforting.
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But I don t see us in lanes.
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I just see us as individual stars.
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There s just infinite room for all of us.
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I like that.
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Are a lot of women competitive, most women?
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I can t say for most women, but I would say that most women have, at some point in their formative years, it s been ingrained in them to see other women as competition.
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Really?
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Why?
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Yeah, for marriage, for the attention of the opposing gender, or we ve been taught that there s a finite amount of space in the workplace, or a finite amount of space in the social circle.
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It s like, well, there can only be one.
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You see it when there s like one amazing female rapper, and then another female rapper rises up,
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And the public and the media are massively instrumental in trying to turn these two women against each other, pit these two women against each other.
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We don t do it with male rappers in the same way.
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We maybe did at the very beginning when there was more of a scarcity, but we have so many extraordinary talented women who can do this same thing in very different ways and we insist on trying to get them to rip each other down so that we don t have to.
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Wow.
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But it s because we ve created a scarcity mindset that so many women have that there s not enough space and there is enough space and it s so vital that we recognize this finally so that we stop being part of tearing each other down because the world is hard enough for us.
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We do not need to make it harder for each other.
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And it doesn t mean we can t criticize each other.
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I ve criticized women.
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I m very open to being criticized myself.
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It s just about making sure that when we re criticizing we re doing it actually constructively.
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and not from a place of, I need you to be lower than me for me to feel taller than you.
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When did you realize your approach?
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Because you mentioned once they put you on the cover of everything and once they said you re the next this and the greatest that, it sounds like you realized, oh, it can only go down from here at some point.
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I knew it was like a ticking time bomb before everything started to go up.
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When you put someone on a pedestal, what happens?
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Well, I mean, what happens is normally
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very powerful people within media start orchestrating that person s demise.
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SPEAKER_00
Really?
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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And we saw it with Anne Hathaway, Jennifer Lawrence, Princess Diana, Meghan Markle, all these different people.
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It s a well-orchestrated, a well-oiled machine of an orchestrated attack.
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They put them up there, though.
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Yeah.
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And then they take them down.
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But yeah, with Jennifer Lawrence, everyone was like, oh, she s so relatable, she s so relatable.
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And then after a while, the same exact behavior was, why is she trying to be so relatable all the time?
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This feels very forced.
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I think she faked falling over.
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Let s bring her down.
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She s a bit arrogant.
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She s gotten a bit ahead of herself.
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This is like a 22-year-old, 23-year-old woman, barely out of her teens.
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It was really mad to watch.
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Same thing with Anne Hathaway.
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She was just enjoying life and enjoying having some success.
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And she had an Oscar speech that seemed to turn people against her and make them feel completely comfortable, completely dehumanizing her.
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But anyway, listen.
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I think I m slightly different to these women in that I ve been poking the hornet s nest.
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Right.
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Straight out the gate.
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They weren t doing that from the beginning.
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They were much more innocent bystanders than I was.
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I made it very easy for everyone because I have a loose opinion.
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You made it easy for everyone, but also at the same time... Doesn t justify it, but... Right.
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But also at the same time, people weren t as willing to communicate back because they didn t want to be looked at as aggressive or whatever, maybe also.
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SPEAKER_00
What do you mean?
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Well, some people were willing to speak back, but then other people were like, OK, I can t say anything because then I m going to get in trouble if they had a separate opinion from you, right?
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SPEAKER_00
No, people would debate with me and argue with me all the time.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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Yeah, we just got into very toothy debates where both of us spoke to each other in a bad way.
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SPEAKER_01
Oh, really?
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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And my problem is the fact that I, listen, I don t believe in always being the bigger person.
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I believe sometimes in being the smaller person.
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Because I m a very petty woman.
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You ll be the last one to say something.
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Yeah, I will fight you to death, but I regret returning the behavior of some of the people who treated me badly.
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I regret it immensely.
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I was spoken to in a very inhumane and disgusting way by certain men with big platforms, and I regret
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giving in to the calm desire to own them and humiliate them back publicly.
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Interesting.
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And it s a natural desire because it doesn t feel fair to let someone get away with that kind of behavior.
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Absolutely not.
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But ultimately when you resort to their same behaviour, and sometimes you use even fouler language, which I m prone to do because I m English, I m very rude, all you do is you start to look as bad as them.
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And you start to look as ungracious and ill-educated as they do.
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And you look like you don t have a better answer.
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And I did have a better answer.
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I was just giving in to a very, like, base part of myself.
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Just my little cavewoman inside.
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where I just wanted to bludgeon them over the head.
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But actually, there were smarter and better ways to reason with those people, because it wasn t really about those people.
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It was about the people who were watching this conversation between two large media figures.
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And it s about how do I appeal to the people who follow that person?
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SPEAKER_01
It s not going to be by ridiculing him because they follow him.
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SPEAKER_01
So if I ridicule him, they consider me ridiculing them.
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SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
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And I just, I wasn t ready.
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I didn t know any of this was coming.
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It s so hard to recognize this in the moment.
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It s so hard to zoom out.
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No one tells you to.
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We were in such a culture of like, yeah, get him on both sides.
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you know, and the audience, it became like a gladiator ring, like Twitter became like a gladiator ring.
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And I, I just didn t, I didn t understand what I was participating in.
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SPEAKER_01
And the pandemic kind of brought a stillness.
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I mean, it brought mania online, but it brought me a stillness to kind of step back and recognize that like,
2
SPEAKER_01
This, this is the way that people are talking to each other now.
2
SPEAKER_01
And the lack of humanity with which we are treating each other in a time where we should have ultimate humanity because we re in a global crisis is terrifying.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I don t want to be a part.
2
SPEAKER_01
of this divide, because I can see what kind of horror we are leading up to with an election.
2
SPEAKER_01
And regardless of who you support politically, if you re watching this, it doesn t change the fact that the time leading up to that election and the time around that election are going to be societally fraught.
2
SPEAKER_01
And people are going to be fighting and spitting each other in the streets.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s going to become violent and scary.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s not a society any of us want.
2
SPEAKER_01
So we all have a social responsibility right now.
2
SPEAKER_01
to look at that and go, how do we all create a more peaceful time?
2
SPEAKER_01
Because the person with different opinions or political beliefs or political backgrounds is not necessarily always your enemy.
2
SPEAKER_01
They re just afraid.
2
SPEAKER_01
They ve been, on whatever side, felt so much misinformation and so much bias and so much rhetoric.
2
SPEAKER_01
to see you, whoever you are, as the enemy.
2
SPEAKER_01
They re just responding to a kind of fight or flight.
2
SPEAKER_01
We re not each other s enemy.
2
SPEAKER_01
There s obviously the odd outlier who s just evil and just wants to hurt other people.
2
SPEAKER_01
But those are the loud, tiny minority of human beings.
2
SPEAKER_01
Most of us just want to be safe, fed.
2
SPEAKER_01
We want health care.
2
SPEAKER_01
We want our loved ones to be OK.
2
SPEAKER_01
And we don t want to be lonely.
2
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But we have never been lonelier.
2
SPEAKER_01
As a society, as a global society, people have never been lonelier.
2
SPEAKER_01
These are the scariest loneliness statistics.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think loneliness has now been classed as one of the biggest killers in the world, like more so even than I think some things do with like alcohol and cigarettes.
2
SPEAKER_01
Loneliness is a killer.
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So of course we re lonely because we don t feel like we can be our true selves.
2
SPEAKER_01
We don t feel like we can ask important questions.
2
SPEAKER_01
We don t feel like we can
2
SPEAKER_01
speak openly.
2
SPEAKER_01
We don t feel like we can be friends with people who have opposing opinions.
2
SPEAKER_01
We don t feel like we can talk to colleagues who have opposing opinions.
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SPEAKER_01
We don t feel like we can talk to our grandmother who was raised in a completely different generation.
2
SPEAKER_01
This is not at all what I wanted.
2
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I don t want this to be the world that my friends  children grow up in.
2
SPEAKER_01
And so I have a responsibility now.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I ve been doing this for a few years on my podcast.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s encouraging my audience, who probably followed me for the fact that I m this warrior princess.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
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SPEAKER_01
Now you ve got to persuade them differently.
2
SPEAKER_01
Encourage them towards grace.
2
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
2
SPEAKER_01
Understanding.
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SPEAKER_01
And not disposing of each other as fast as they are.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s... I mean, I was telling you before we were talking about this, that this...
2
SPEAKER_00
is inspiring me hearing you say this because I m all for justice, fairness, you know, people being heard and communicating effectively and making sure that we re improving everywhere.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m all for it.
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SPEAKER_00
But it s sometimes when it s communicated in a way that is attacking, I m like, I don t know if someone has ever screamed at me and I ve been able to listen to them.
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SPEAKER_00
from football coaches, to parents, to ex-girlfriends.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t know if I ve ever been able to sit there calmly and say, I hear you, and I m willing to listen more and I wanna make a change.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s always like, I need to protect myself, I need to defend myself, you re crazy, or whatever I was feeling at the time of something coming at me, or feeling guilty, shamed, and not enough when I m being yelled at, from my perspective.
2
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And I just don t know,
2
SPEAKER_00
how that s going to help people feel included in a conversation when they re getting yelled at or made wrong.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, from the very beginning of my advocacy, I always was against the frivolity of cancel culture, in that I always said that we can t demotivate people from improving by telling them they can never come back.
2
SPEAKER_00
That I was consistent on from the start.
2
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I was never trying to cancel anyone.
2
SPEAKER_01
I was just trying to tell people to stop doing what they were doing, but I just did it with incredibly bad language.
2
SPEAKER_01
But I never intended for anyone to have everything taken away from them, probably Harvey Weinstein, who can go fuck himself.
2
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But everyone else who just said the wrong thing or thought the wrong thing or, you know, went against groupthink, those are the people that I was just like, let s hear them out.
2
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And I hope that they can come back better and stronger and they can atone.
2
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And then we re-welcome them back.
2
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Otherwise, how do you motivate anyone to change?
2
SPEAKER_01
Why would we?
2
SPEAKER_01
Why would we?
2
SPEAKER_01
Like, we re all...
2
SPEAKER_01
Like, we haven t evolved that much in the last 2,000 years.
2
SPEAKER_01
We still can t tell the difference between a mean tweet and a saber-toothed tiger.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like, we aren t these, like, utopian moral beings who can just keep taking endless amounts of lashings with no hope of return and keep doing the work.
2
SPEAKER_01
The work is hard.
2
SPEAKER_00
It is.
2
SPEAKER_01
Whatever it is that makes you an embittered or angry or fearful person is probably some sort of trauma, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
I ve been an
2
SPEAKER_01
before.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that wasn t for no reason.
2
SPEAKER_01
That didn t come out of nowhere.
2
SPEAKER_01
I was abused.
2
SPEAKER_01
I didn t deal with my abuse.
2
SPEAKER_01
I took my abuse out on the wrong target.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s most of us.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
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And I think because I ve also been a troll, and I ve been an, and I ve been a misogynist in the past, because I ve watched my own transition, I have such belief in people because I m such a not extraordinary person.
2
SPEAKER_01
So if I can change, I really believe in people.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I feel as though on the left and amongst liberals and in social justice, hope and belief in people is dying.
2
SPEAKER_00
Wow, really?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_00
What is the left?
2
SPEAKER_01
And that s why we disregard people and dispose of them, because they re just like, they re never going to change.
2
SPEAKER_01
And that comes from, by the way, just being disappointed again and again and again.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m not blaming them for that.
2
SPEAKER_01
But that s not going to get us anywhere.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it s not true.
2
SPEAKER_01
What is the point of activism, which is the work of change?
2
SPEAKER_01
if you don t think people or systems can actually change.
2
SPEAKER_01
And they can t change with only ostracization and bullying and humiliation.
2
SPEAKER_00
And cancelling.
2
SPEAKER_01
And yeah, I mean, that s a big part of what ostracization is.
2
SPEAKER_01
Cancelling has got so many different iterations as to what it is for so many people.
2
SPEAKER_01
People go, well, Louis C.K.
2
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is not cancelled.
2
SPEAKER_01
He s still selling out Madison Square Gardens.
2
SPEAKER_01
Clementine Morrigan talks a lot about this, like what cancel culture actually is, which is like taking everything away from someone, including the fact that their own friends and family and colleagues decide to distance themselves from that person, so they become completely out.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s like putting a person in kind of social solitary confinement, which is the cruelest thing you can do to someone.
2
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Much crueler than taking away their awards.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s a social contagion.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I ve never learned from being screamed at.
2
SPEAKER_01
I ve never learned from being bullied or ostracized.
2
SPEAKER_01
I might be fear-mongered into changing the way I act, but it doesn t change my heart.
2
SPEAKER_00
No.
2
SPEAKER_00
If anything, it might make you more upset.
2
SPEAKER_00
Maybe.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, if I get dehumanized.
2
SPEAKER_00
I have no hope in the world.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
No one accepts me or is willing to listen to me, then screw the world.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
We see that with a lot of people.
2
SPEAKER_01
We see that with people who go into prison and come out
3
SPEAKER_00
more violent and more dangerous.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like you dehumanize people.
3
SPEAKER_00
Then what is their motivation to become more humane?
3
SPEAKER_00
Where are they supposed to be getting that from?
3
SPEAKER_00
You can t just like withdraw, withdraw, withdraw and never deposit any grace, never deposit any humanity and expect that person to change.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so, you know, I think I myself have been ostracized and, you know, like kind of
3
SPEAKER_00
after the top of the roller coaster came crashing down in like 2020 with a bunch of just nonsense that was said about me.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like I knew that I was going to probably get cancelled for something that I would say because I, you know, say the wrong things sometimes and I allow space for my infallibility.
3
SPEAKER_00
What I didn t expect is that things that weren t true would be used to take me down.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh, that s how it always is.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s how it always is.
3
SPEAKER_01
At least talk about the facts and bring me down with that.
3
SPEAKER_00
But I was going after big industries.
3
SPEAKER_00
I was going after the diet industry and the diet industry funds the media industry.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I was going after the media.
3
SPEAKER_00
I was going after huge figures of the media.
3
SPEAKER_00
So it was bound to be this coordinated effort.
3
SPEAKER_00
would just come at me all at once.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s not to say that I had not made mistakes.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s not to say I hadn t left myself open to criticism, because I had, and I welcome it.
3
SPEAKER_00
But the things were so egregious that I was like, wow, you just can t kill women anymore.
3
SPEAKER_00
We used to be able to just kill them when they were annoying or a problem.
3
SPEAKER_00
So now you just have to kill their credibility.
3
SPEAKER_00
You have to kill their reputation.
3
SPEAKER_00
You have to overexpose them.
3
SPEAKER_00
You have to make people irritated with them.
3
SPEAKER_00
Two people disagree with their tweet, you call it a backlash and a headline.
3
SPEAKER_00
even though a multitude of people, the majority of people are agreeing with them, being inside of that swirling media cancellation mess was fascinating.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because I was like, this is how it works.
3
SPEAKER_00
And after that, I couldn t unsee it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then I started to look back at all these women who d gone through the same thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, it did all happen at once, out of nowhere.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so now I feel very protective over those women.
3
SPEAKER_00
But also,
3
SPEAKER_01
So what was the moment then?
3
SPEAKER_00
Again, being screamed at by people didn t make me feel more empathetic.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
It didn t make me feel like I wanted to help more.
3
SPEAKER_00
It made me want to disappear and kill myself.
3
SPEAKER_01
Interesting.
3
SPEAKER_01
This is when?
3
SPEAKER_00
This was 2020.
3
SPEAKER_00
Really?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I wanted to kill myself.
3
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
3
SPEAKER_00
I had to be put on medications that I wouldn t kill myself.
3
SPEAKER_00
it was very serious.
3
SPEAKER_00
I had a six-month nervous breakdown after that and I was like, why do I want to be responsible for making anyone else feel like this?
3
SPEAKER_00
Not that I d ever tried because I was not pro-council culture but I definitely called people out publicly in ways that sometimes I still do and I m working on it.
3
SPEAKER_00
But because I want to find a balance between holding very powerful people accountable but also not
3
SPEAKER_00
So just taking a f*** on their talk show.
3
SPEAKER_00
I want to do it in a more intelligent and thoughtful and relatable way.
3
SPEAKER_00
But going through all of that and realizing that this is not how we teach anyone anything.
3
SPEAKER_00
And just the mess and seeing how many of the people that were enjoying my downfall were liberals, or were my own, or were the very people that I d been fighting for, and were women.
3
SPEAKER_01
They were enjoying watching you fall.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and participating in it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Participating in it, perpetuating it on social media.
3
SPEAKER_01
Or behind the scenes with friends.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, because I think like,
3
SPEAKER_00
I think I probably wasn t adhering to the social contract, because I am opinionated.
3
SPEAKER_00
I have an opinion on everything.
3
SPEAKER_00
So do most of us.
3
SPEAKER_00
I didn t understand, hey, don t give your opinion all the time about everything.
3
SPEAKER_00
I just thought it was pathetic.
3
SPEAKER_00
But I ve never understood my position.
3
SPEAKER_00
Fame happened so fast for me both times it happened in England and the US that you can t grasp it.
3
SPEAKER_00
You re just in your house.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m not a Jonas brother who s going out and people are chasing me down the street.
3
SPEAKER_00
I just feel like me.
3
SPEAKER_00
I still live with my flatmates who I ve known since I was 18.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I couldn t understand that I m... I couldn t really understand that my position has changed.
3
SPEAKER_00
Stop just chatting to everyone as if you can.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because everything you say becomes a headline.
3
SPEAKER_00
I just didn t realise.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then by the time I did, it was 2008.
3
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
3
SPEAKER_00
And...
3
SPEAKER_00
It is what it is, but now I ve overcome the trauma of that and now I feel very grateful for it because it has given me a clarity that and the pandemic and watching the horror of the way that everyone behaved on all political sides has given me real motivation to now spend the rest of my life working on bringing people back together.
3
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s inspiring.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m laughing because I just wasn t sure where you were at in your life personally, but to hear this really inspires me.
3
SPEAKER_01
And what sounds to me and what I m hearing you say is for many years, you were calling people out on... Out and in.
3
SPEAKER_01
Al, Danielle, you were speaking out about certain people, and now what I m hearing you say is you re trying to call people up to something greater of what s possible for them in a more thoughtful, inclusive way.
3
SPEAKER_00
Calling people up and calling people together.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like we are struggling with so much bigger than the stuff that we re fighting about right now.
3
SPEAKER_00
It is happening imminently.
3
SPEAKER_00
The healthcare crisis is imminent.
3
SPEAKER_00
The homelessness crisis is, it s here.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s arrived.
3
SPEAKER_00
We re fighting about things that might happen 10, 20 years from now.
3
SPEAKER_00
And we need to be talking about what s happening now, what s happening, what s going wrong with the water in this country, the hormones in the food, big shock, like all these different things that are killing people now.
3
SPEAKER_00
I just want us to, I just want us to come together.
3
SPEAKER_01
you are aware of and involved in so many different causes and things around society.
3
SPEAKER_01
And there are probably a lot of people watching or listening who are angry about something in the world, whether it s in their own community or around healthcare or around fairness, equality, reproductive rights, whatever it might be, financial inequality, all these different things.
3
SPEAKER_01
A lot of people are angry about something.
3
SPEAKER_01
And what I see is a lot of people who are angry about that thing want it to change now, like you talked about.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s got to change now, which is really hard for big things to change overnight.
3
SPEAKER_01
But how can people who are upset, frustrated, worn out, exhausted, and feel like it s just so unfair, certain elements of whatever system they re frustrated with,
3
SPEAKER_01
How can they, if you could only share one message with them on how to really be effective on making a change in the thing that matters to them most, what would you say to those individuals?
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, first thing you need to do is identify that that s a cultural pattern in our generation, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
We want 1,000 channels.
3
SPEAKER_00
We want 1,000 shows to be able to stream at the same time.
3
SPEAKER_00
We want to be able to have 600 different people on a menu that we can swipe through who we re going to go on a date with tonight.
3
SPEAKER_00
We have Amazon Prime.
3
SPEAKER_00
It delivers today.
3
SPEAKER_00
We have, you know what I mean?
3
SPEAKER_00
Instant gratification, options there.
3
SPEAKER_00
We don t do slow weight loss or weight gain anymore.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like, where are the shortcuts?
3
SPEAKER_00
It s a generation taught to look for shortcuts, to look for a quick fix, to look for instant gratification.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so recognizing that as a cultural phenomenon that s never existed before, because pre-technology we didn t have access to it, I m sure the inclination was always there.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s never good for you.
3
SPEAKER_00
We have too much content.
3
SPEAKER_00
We are overstimulated.
3
SPEAKER_00
We re spending too much time on screens.
3
SPEAKER_00
We re seeing mental health issues.
3
SPEAKER_00
We have too many dating options, too many apps.
3
SPEAKER_00
People are lonelier than they ve ever been.
3
SPEAKER_00
They re having less sex than they ve ever had.
3
SPEAKER_00
The birth rate, I guess, is declining.
3
SPEAKER_00
All kinds of things are going wrong from having too many options, too much convenience.
3
SPEAKER_00
We are seeing people s health decline because of fast food.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so when we look at people losing weight with these extreme measures, be it pills, injections, like very, very severe diets that are unsustainable, 5% of which work, 95% of which fail.
3
SPEAKER_00
Those aren t good for people.
3
SPEAKER_00
They can lead to eating disorders or heart problems, all kinds of different health issues if you re taking substances to speed up your weight loss.
3
SPEAKER_00
I was talking in the Senate not long ago about the fact that in muscle build products that are predominantly targeting boys, in a lot of them they re finding Viagra and heavy metals.
3
SPEAKER_00
all just quick fix, quick fix, quick fix.
3
SPEAKER_00
There s no such thing as a quick fix.
3
SPEAKER_00
Nothing that has ever been done at speed can ever work.
3
SPEAKER_00
It always causes mess, chaos and harm.
3
SPEAKER_00
So while I understand wanting anything fast, patience and discipline are two things that are no longer encouraged in our society.
3
SPEAKER_00
We don t even allow for human beings to grow and change anymore.
3
SPEAKER_00
We expect them to instantly be updated with all of the perfect opinions that are constantly changing all of the time.
3
SPEAKER_00
So we have to take a step back and look at the fact that we are a sick society.
3
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
3
SPEAKER_00
Mentally, physically, socially.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so once we re realistic about the fact that the quick fix doesn t work, I think
4
SPEAKER_01
we re able to return to, okay, what does incremental change look like?
4
SPEAKER_01
The only kind of change that ever lasts, incremental change.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s kind of slow change, slow growth.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s slow change.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s slow bit by bit by bit by bit, and that allows you to have time to be careful.
4
SPEAKER_01
It allows you to have time to consider.
4
SPEAKER_01
It allows you to have time to change your mind.
4
SPEAKER_00
Strategize, test it out, see how this feels.
4
SPEAKER_01
My rise to fame, way too fast.
4
SPEAKER_01
I had no idea what the fuck was going on.
4
SPEAKER_01
I felt like I was in the middle of a tornado.
4
SPEAKER_01
I didn t have time to look at myself or look at the way that I was coming across or look at the impact to the people that I most wanted to reach.
4
SPEAKER_01
I didn t want to reach the people who already agree with me.
4
SPEAKER_01
And now those are the only people that are probably listening to my podcast that I mean to be for everyone.
4
SPEAKER_01
But I couldn t see it, it was too fast.
4
SPEAKER_01
Nothing fast ever works.
4
SPEAKER_01
Nothing good comes from it.
4
SPEAKER_01
So what does incremental change look like?
4
SPEAKER_01
Incremental change looks like starting to educate yourself.
4
SPEAKER_01
It involves listening to people s opinions who are opposed to you, which you re not supposed to do.
4
SPEAKER_01
Nowadays you re not even supposed to follow anyone.
4
SPEAKER_01
that has a different opinion or who did something wrong.
4
SPEAKER_00
Because then you ll be judged for following them too.
4
SPEAKER_01
Follow those people.
4
SPEAKER_01
Follow those people.
4
SPEAKER_01
Look and see.
4
SPEAKER_00
Learn from them.
4
SPEAKER_00
Read their stuff.
4
SPEAKER_00
Watch their content.
4
SPEAKER_01
Develop critical thinking skills as to why you disagree with them.
4
SPEAKER_01
Research.
4
SPEAKER_01
Learn.
4
SPEAKER_01
When you have a family member who says something that you find egregious that you disagree with, whatever political side you re on,
4
SPEAKER_01
Learn how to debate, learn how to oppose, give them the facts.
4
SPEAKER_01
Learn how to convince each other again, not just shut each other down and dispose of each other.
4
SPEAKER_01
Change the circle you re in.
4
SPEAKER_01
If we can all just focus on the circle we re in and stop fighting with celebrities who we weigh over deified anyway and stop fighting with, you know,
4
SPEAKER_01
our great-grandfather who isn t, you know.
4
SPEAKER_01
Did something in the war back in the day or whatever, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
Like, let s just work on our inner circle and try to make an influence there, change the way that we interact with others, because that will change the way that person goes on to interact with someone else, and open up our scope of who we are.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
Willing to just listen to.
4
SPEAKER_01
Because I sometimes wonder if the reason that both sides are so afraid to listen to each other is because they re worried they might be convinced.
4
SPEAKER_01
Or they re worried they might find out they were wrong.
4
SPEAKER_00
Ooh, I like that.
4
SPEAKER_01
And whether or not that s true, that s not a good place to move from as a human being.
4
SPEAKER_00
Your beliefs are shaken, it shakes your identity.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and this is just it, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
So I was talking to this psychologist in DM on Instagram, in which she said that identity and opinion have become completely interlinked.
4
SPEAKER_01
She sees that a lot with the people who come into her office.
4
SPEAKER_00
Explain that more.
4
SPEAKER_01
So it means that like, you know, back in our day,
4
SPEAKER_01
We grew up not knowing anyone else s political ideology or what their parents represented or what their beliefs were about almost anything.
4
SPEAKER_01
We used to just have polite meals and then, you know what I mean, like arguments about like more trivial things.
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It was a simpler time.
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It wasn t necessarily a great time, but it was a simpler time.
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And we were able to acknowledge that if someone had an opinion we don t like, that s just their opinion that we don t like.
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And we had friends who might ve been deemed
4
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problematic or different, but we kind of accept that, well, that s just like a part of them I don t like, but I can see the rest of the individual.
4
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Now we can t see the rest of the individual anymore.
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The bit that we don t like tarnishes everything about them and erases their history of anything they did that was good.
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SPEAKER_00
That s what I like.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s scary.
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It s scary.
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Like we see this all the time with public figures.
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It s like someone could do so many great things and then they make one mistake and then we disregard everything they ve ever done and we want to get rid of them.
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Without thinking like, oh, a lot of people might suffer if we completely get rid of that person because they re actually quite helpful.
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We used to be able to see when someone was more helpful than harmful and see that we can just work on the bit that s harmful.
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But now we just throw everyone away.
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And so I think that is something that concerns me.
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SPEAKER_01
And so when it comes to the identity and opinion, is that identity and opinion is no longer a separate thing.
4
SPEAKER_01
Because of social media, identity and opinion have kind of like woven together.
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And now they kind of exist as one.
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So before when someone would say, oh, I disagree with your opinion, it just meant I disagree with your opinion.
4
SPEAKER_01
But now it means- But we can still be friends.
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SPEAKER_01
I disagree with you fundamentally.
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SPEAKER_01
I disagree with who you are and who you ve become.
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And I m defining you as this person.
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I m freezing you in stone as this person forever.
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SPEAKER_00
How long do you think this will go on for until people wake up and say, oh, I was doing this to other people and now it s actually coming back to hurt me?
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SPEAKER_01
It depends on how many of us with public figures work to raise awareness and raise the alarm about this.
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SPEAKER_00
Wow.
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You know?
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SPEAKER_00
Not many people in Hollywood are talking the way you re talking right now.
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It s because you re still congratulated by isolating and demonizing.
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That s why I popped off about the Met Gala, because I was like, hang on, hang on.
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SPEAKER_01
This is an industry and this is an audience that really makes a big deal of not being able to separate an art from an artist.
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SPEAKER_00
But they have been in the last four or five years, right?
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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The last seven years in particular.
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It s like, we can t separate the art from the artist.
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We re going to demonize and ostracize whoever we can and whoever we want to and whoever we re just going to completely separate ourselves from.
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SPEAKER_01
And we re going to drop them and we re going to do this or the other.
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SPEAKER_00
And what happened at the Met Gala?
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SPEAKER_01
And the Met Gala is they threw a party for a bigot.
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who was so cruel about fat people, who people claim to care about now, so cruel about immigrants, so awful about the Me Too movement, and you ve got Me Too feminists and media that pushed the Me Too movement, celebrating this man at the highest honour, the biggest party of the year.
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SPEAKER_01
And then you ve got everyone online who loves cancelling people and who loves digging up people s tweets from when they were 12, applauding, it doesn t matter what he said, he s an icon.
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SPEAKER_01
Like, what are we doing?
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Pick one.
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How can we expect anyone to take us seriously if we are this hypocritical and this wishy-washy?
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We ve got to be consistent.
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I m fine to separate the art from the artist, because the longer I m in this industry, the more I realise that they re all terrible people.
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SPEAKER_01
So yeah, like the greats, the greats.
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They ve all got something.
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They ve all done something hugely inappropriate or awful or they were horrible.
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So the only way you can enjoy art is almost to separate the art from the artist.
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SPEAKER_01
And the longer you re around, the more you start to realise that and the more that comes out after they ve died.
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It is what it is.
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So what is it?
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Are we separating the art from the artist or are we not?
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We have to decide.
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I hate hypocrisy.
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SPEAKER_01
Because it means that all the other things that we re doing that are good can t be taken seriously.
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We open ourselves up for ridicule.
4
SPEAKER_00
The word that I keep hearing you talk about or insinuating is grace.
4
SPEAKER_01
Right, yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
And it sounds like you ve had grace for yourself through what you went through in your rise to fame a couple times, plus your, you know, the roller coaster when you were on top, you know, when people were coming at you in 2020 and dealing with all that, you had grace for yourself, you had grace for your body image, you had grace for your health, your stress, you ve had grace for others now in certain ways.
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SPEAKER_00
And what I m hearing you say is we just need more grace in general for ourselves and others.
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SPEAKER_01
No, we don t just need more grace.
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We still need more order, we still need stopping, and more accountability, and more self-accountability, less hypocrisy, and more organizing for what the actual end goal is here.
4
SPEAKER_01
What are the big things we re fighting for?
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Let s stop focusing in on the minutia.
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Let s work on the big things that hurt everyone in our society.
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And let s work together on that.
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Let s organize.
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And then on top of that, in order to be able to do that, you need more grace.
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Doesn t mean you can t criticize each other.
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It doesn t mean you can t get pissed off with one another.
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It doesn t mean you can t fight.
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It just means that the fight has to end at some point.
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SPEAKER_01
There has to be a road back.
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SPEAKER_01
We have to allow for a space for atonement.
4
SPEAKER_01
And we have to recognize that there is a part of us that enjoys watching other people fail and do something wrong and make mistakes because then we don t have to think about all the terrible mistakes and terrible thoughts that we ve made.
4
SPEAKER_01
and all the mistakes we ve made, it s like, oh good, everyone s looking at them, so no one s looking at me.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so the reason dog piles happen mostly, it s not because everyone cares that much about that thing.
4
SPEAKER_01
We can see that the thing that we want to say has been said a thousand times, but we want to loudly, from a tribal perspective, from a tribal place rather, we want to loudly exclaim our disapproval so that we announce which tribe we re on.
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SPEAKER_01
We want to say, I m with the bigger crowd, so don t include me in any of that.
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SPEAKER_01
We want to be safe.
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We want to be in the tribe.
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SPEAKER_01
We don t want to be left on our own to be eaten alive.
4
SPEAKER_01
And what I feel very sad about is that more and more, when someone gets into trouble for something that isn t egregious physical violence, the kind of thing where they ve really destroyed someone s life where that person might never recover.
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We just leave them for dead?
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When I got piled onto, I got left for dead.
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SPEAKER_01
And racists and bigots and misogynists were all able to come for me.
5
SPEAKER_01
And no one from my side stepped in.
5
SPEAKER_01
How is that?
5
SPEAKER_01
And then as soon as I overcame it, everyone came back.
5
SPEAKER_01
Why is that?
5
SPEAKER_01
Everyone came back and it was like it never happened.
5
SPEAKER_01
And they were like, oh, I m so glad you came back through that thing.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I got Marvel.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then I was back on the cover of Vogue and I was having a great time.
5
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And all of a sudden,
5
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All my friends came rushing, not my real friends, they never left me.
5
SPEAKER_01
But all these people, all these media figures were suddenly all over me, wanting to be in pictures again, and I was like, I don t know.
5
SPEAKER_00
Isn t that interesting?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and so sometimes I now get into trouble for trying to show public grace to someone in a moment of their disgrace, and I understand why I get into trouble for that.
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But this is, it might be my mistake, but I m not afraid of mistakes.
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I believe in my heart right now that love and extending a tiny bit of grace or hope to someone is the best way for them to come back from that thing and do better.
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And that seeing someone go from doing something bad to doing something better is much more healthy and helpful for our society than just watching them disappear.
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100%.
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Seeing change.
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Seeing change.
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My audience love watching me change.
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SPEAKER_01
They love that I used to be a misogynist and I m growing less and less problematic as time goes on.
5
SPEAKER_01
But they enjoy the fact that they re watching me become not only a better person, but happier.
5
SPEAKER_01
Happier, healthier, allowing myself to fail, like getting rid of the shackles of the perfection that women are held up to, the standards of perfection that women are held up to.
5
SPEAKER_01
I ve never felt more at peace.
5
SPEAKER_01
I ve never felt more love.
5
SPEAKER_01
I ve never felt more connected.
5
SPEAKER_01
I ve never been more open to a fist bump.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m English, but I ll take it.
5
SPEAKER_01
But I ve never felt more connected to the world.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I think a large part of our loneliness as a society is coming from the fact that we are starting to, we re being trained and encouraged by social media and media and algorithms to look at each other as enemies.
5
SPEAKER_01
We are not each other s enemies.
5
SPEAKER_01
There are people far more powerful whose names we don t know deliberately who are controlling all of this and making us stare at each other rather than looking for them.
5
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and I want to go after them.
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SPEAKER_01
So expect, now that I ve said that, that to be another huge random media scandal.
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This is powerful.
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SPEAKER_00
I m curious, where do you think you d be if you didn t have the attacks of everyone coming at you in 2020?
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SPEAKER_00
Where do you think you d be right now without that experience, that sadness, that loneliness, that loss of, oh, I thought these people were my friends, and then they left, and then they came back?
5
SPEAKER_01
I think I d be in a fairly similar place.
5
SPEAKER_00
Really?
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SPEAKER_01
I really do.
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SPEAKER_01
I think when it comes to noticing and fighting for the way that we elevate women just to drag them down, I think that s what that taught me.
5
SPEAKER_00
Because you experienced it.
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SPEAKER_01
And I think I might be less inclined to reach out to someone in a moment of disgrace.
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SPEAKER_01
That would be something that would be different.
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SPEAKER_01
I think I would be the way everyone else is, which is all, I don t want to catch it.
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SPEAKER_01
I don t want to be nice to them or like anything or keep following them in case anyone
5
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drags me into this.
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SPEAKER_01
I don t want to be in the tribe.
5
SPEAKER_01
But what you do is you leave someone so isolated that then they feel hopeless and, you know... Bad things happen.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
People have died.
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SPEAKER_01
I know people have died.
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SPEAKER_01
I almost died.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
I almost truly died.
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SPEAKER_01
I can t believe I m still here.
5
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
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And had I not lived with my best friends and my boyfriend and not had the kindness of the people, you know, around me and medication that I m no longer on, but I needed in that moment.
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I d be dead, for sure.
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SPEAKER_01
It isn t.
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SPEAKER_01
I understand that people look at public figures as like, well, you ve got all this money and this power, and definitely true, yes.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s not the same as when it happens to someone who works in a shop or a store or in a school, which does happen.
5
SPEAKER_01
It doesn t just happen to... That s the other thing.
5
SPEAKER_01
We think this stuff just happens to famous people.
5
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What happens is it bleeds into our culture and it permeates our culture.
5
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happens to people who we never hear about.
5
SPEAKER_01
It happens to people in schools, in, you know, in their workplace and they get ostracized and they lose their job and they have no other means.
5
SPEAKER_01
They ve got no way to, they can t even afford a therapist to all of it.
5
SPEAKER_01
The kids are watching and they re learning.
5
SPEAKER_01
But I think other than that, I think I would be at the same place when it comes to division because the pandemic shifted something in our society globally and the loss of women s rights.
5
SPEAKER_01
and the hatred that we re seeing now.
5
SPEAKER_01
We re not seeing people disagree with each other s opinions.
5
SPEAKER_01
We re seeing real visceral hatred.
5
SPEAKER_00
Evil hatred, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and we re seeing mockery of each other that I don t think is very helpful, that I totally participated in before.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, just a few years ago, if some man was incredibly degrading to me on Twitter, I would call him an incel.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I look back and I m like, an incel.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you know, when someone s involuntary celibate.
5
SPEAKER_01
Without really thinking about like, yes, he shouldn t have degraded me.
5
SPEAKER_01
And yes, he should never have spoken to me in that sexist and disgusting way.
5
SPEAKER_01
But my calling him an incel just lowers me to his level.
5
SPEAKER_01
and is actually perpetuating a really cruel, unkind message about men who feel lonely.
5
SPEAKER_01
So then I suck.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so I stopped doing that a few years ago.
5
SPEAKER_01
But I, you know, it s not like, I m not like, but it s just.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s good you re aware of it and you re acknowledging it and you re, you know.
5
SPEAKER_01
But there s like slap down, smack down, own the libs, own the Republicans.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, even liberals, these videos they make where they go out into
5
SPEAKER_01
these parts of the country where a lot of these people, they re not from the same metropolitan cities we are.
5
SPEAKER_01
They re not exposed to the same news or algorithms that we are.
5
SPEAKER_01
They are largely ignored by both coasts until suddenly someone s got a microphone and they want to go and interview some 70-year-old Republican man who s a farmer.
5
SPEAKER_01
and ask him his opinions on these very new topics of discussion, and he might give an ill-informed or outdated answer.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then the way we laugh, and it goes viral, and everyone loves it, and we do shit on them.
5
SPEAKER_01
What message does that send?
5
SPEAKER_01
What does that say to everyone watching that?
5
SPEAKER_01
It says, we think you re idiots.
5
SPEAKER_00
You re less than.
5
SPEAKER_01
You re less than.
5
SPEAKER_01
They think we re idiots.
5
SPEAKER_01
We are all, everyone, right now, being idiots.
5
SPEAKER_01
Because we re fighting the wrong target.
5
SPEAKER_01
None of us are smarter or better than each other.
5
SPEAKER_01
We re all just informed differently.
5
SPEAKER_01
And the faster we can all work to explain that to people, the faster we will bring people together into a much healthier and happier society.
5
SPEAKER_01
And that s where I want my work to, everything I m doing is now towards mental health.
5
SPEAKER_00
I was just going to mention that because with your show, your podcast, I Weigh, which is a great show that I ve been on.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I think I ve seen the evolution of it, which is inspiring to see that it s focused more on mental health now.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I think something you said, which is self-accountability, self-control, mental health, and enter your own healing are the things that I think when we work on those things,
5
SPEAKER_00
everything gets better, because then you can interpret things better, you can pause, you can give people grace, you can give yourself grace, you can, as opposed to just, I m angry, I m lashing out because I m hurt.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I m afraid.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
5
SPEAKER_01
Everyone feels afraid all the time.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s really bad for your nervous system.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s neurologically terrible.
5
SPEAKER_01
We ve had doctors on my podcast come on and explain that mistakes are the most effective way for somebody to learn.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s how neurologically your brain is more likely to implement and keep information.
5
SPEAKER_01
We ve made people afraid of mistakes.
5
SPEAKER_01
We ve made people afraid of everything.
5
SPEAKER_01
And people feel so afraid of and isolated and judged by each other.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s not good.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so what I Weigh has been more focusing on is
5
SPEAKER_01
me reaching across to people who are less and less like me, and wanting to engage in civil discourse.
5
SPEAKER_00
Inspiring.
5
SPEAKER_01
And wanting to expose new ideas that are away from groupthink, and just challenge them sometimes, but respectfully.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, of course.
5
SPEAKER_01
Or sometimes have my mind opened.
5
SPEAKER_00
What s the thing that s opened your mind the most from someone that maybe you said, I don t think I m gonna learn much from this person, but I m curious to see what they have to say, and maybe I d be open.
5
SPEAKER_00
Who shocked you, or what idea opened you up
5
SPEAKER_01
I think the thing that has probably taken me by surprise the most has been neurologists, in that it s not that I went in with any kind of preemptive decision of what I was going to hear, but I had no idea how much neurology, how much brain science actually informs our personality, and informs our behavior, and informs our anxiety, and informs our depression.
5
SPEAKER_01
I had no idea about the way that we are wired and what we eat and what we drink and how much we sleep.
5
SPEAKER_01
I always thought, yeah, yeah, I get it.
5
SPEAKER_01
I get it.
5
SPEAKER_01
Exercise man.
6
SPEAKER_01
I hate exercise.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Don t drink alcohol.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s like, yeah, I get it.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s completely transformed my life.
6
SPEAKER_01
I ve been listening to these people.
6
SPEAKER_01
I ve been learning about glucose and I ve been learning about daily exercise and I m mortified to admit that it s made me happier than I thought.
6
SPEAKER_01
I m mortified.
6
SPEAKER_00
Cause you were like, screw this stuff.
6
SPEAKER_01
I hate sweating.
6
SPEAKER_01
I think it s disgusting.
6
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
6
SPEAKER_01
But I ve been exercising, you know, a little bit every single day.
6
SPEAKER_01
I ve been bringing my audience along for the ride because obviously we were kind of a very clear anti-diet culture space.
6
SPEAKER_01
It was, you know, where a lot of eating disorder recoveries.
6
SPEAKER_01
Sure, sure.
6
SPEAKER_01
Where a lot of people who ve had eating disorders come to, you know, what we ve created as a safe haven for eating disorders.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so exercise is a really tricky conversation for most people.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
Because there s so much shame around exercise.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s not a healthy version.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s more of an extreme version.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s all for the external.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s all for the vanity.
6
SPEAKER_00
But when you know the power of your brain and how helpful it is for that, which helps you heal, calm, feel differently.
6
SPEAKER_01
It changes everything.
6
SPEAKER_01
But our focus is, look at the exercise attire.
6
SPEAKER_01
men and women are expected to wear especially women with the bra and like the the light colored leggings and that s fine everyone should just do themselves sure no everyone no everyone feels comfortable x is i don t want to bend over and see what i look like bending over in a mirror i had an eating disorder for 20 years i have body dysmorphia that s going to make me not want to go again the next day because i m going to go into a place of judgment
6
SPEAKER_01
And, you know, we also, again, we want instant results, so it takes a long time.
6
SPEAKER_00
It takes a long time.
6
SPEAKER_01
Not that long, not as long as you think, but it takes like six months.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s not three week abs, six pack, it s like six months minimum.
6
SPEAKER_01
I remember when I was 24, I walked into my friend who s a personal trainer, who then went on to train me for Marvel, Al Jackson.
6
SPEAKER_01
I walked into his gym when I was 24.
6
SPEAKER_01
I was like, how long would it take me to get an a** like Nicole Scherzinger?
6
SPEAKER_01
And he looked at my a** and he was like, about three months?
6
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, nah, never mind.
6
SPEAKER_01
I walked out.
6
SPEAKER_00
Even three months is not that long.
6
SPEAKER_00
Amazing.
6
SPEAKER_00
Amazing.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Three months, that s like... He was probably lying.
6
SPEAKER_01
It was probably going to be a... He was going to sneak me into a six.
6
SPEAKER_00
Six to nine.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
But still, I heard that and I was like, well, if it s not two weeks, I don t have time for that.
6
SPEAKER_00
Oh my gosh.
6
SPEAKER_01
Classic.
6
SPEAKER_01
Classic of our generation.
6
SPEAKER_00
Like, I m just not going to work out at all.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
when you think about the neurological benefits of exercise and the fact that within 10 to 15 minutes, you have endorphins, you have happy chemicals going through your brain that are de-stressing you, making it more likely for you to be able to sleep that night, de-stressing you, you immediately feel better than you felt beforehand.
6
SPEAKER_01
And then if you keep that up every day, within a week or two, your life starts to genuinely feel different.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so I ve been trying to bring my audience along with me on this journey doing that.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s called Move for Your Mind.
6
SPEAKER_00
How dare you exercise?
6
SPEAKER_00
How dare you enjoy it?
6
SPEAKER_01
But I found a way that is like in baggy clothes, eating sugary snacks, so we can divorce the idea of calories out, calories in.
6
SPEAKER_01
We re going against all of exercise culture and all of diet culture, because exercise culture and diet culture are just married now.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so we ve kind of created this slightly anarchist, rebellious exercise movement.
6
SPEAKER_00
Don t work out, but make sure you re moving.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
But you can look ridiculous.
6
SPEAKER_01
I look ridiculous.
6
SPEAKER_01
I have no- That s great.
6
SPEAKER_01
Swag, you know, I don t know if that s the right word.
6
SPEAKER_00
Don t work out for Instagram.
6
SPEAKER_00
Don t work out for Instagram, work out for yourself.
6
SPEAKER_01
No one s going to want to see that.
6
SPEAKER_01
But like dance in your kitchen, do things that are free, lift water bottles, lift your dog, lift your child.
6
SPEAKER_01
You know, go for a walk every day.
6
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Do simple things.
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Buy a $300 walking machine, which might be expensive for some people, for some people it might be affordable.
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So if you re a woman and you re afraid of walking at night,
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I walk on that, and I watch my favorite TV shows, and then I get my half an hour a day, and then I feel amazing, and I have a great night s sleep.
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I sound smug and disgusting.
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I hate myself.
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I promised myself I would never be this person.
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Or a healthy person.
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An exercising person, but we re trying to find unpretentious, fun, and welcoming ways for people at any size, or with any disability, or any stage of pregnancy to join us and not feel ostracized.
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That s cool.
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Because we still, I mean, whenever there s a plus size line for exercise workout,
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The world goes mad.
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It s like, what did you want them to wear when they were exercising?
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You want these people to exercise and work out and be healthy.
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What do you want, to be naked in the gym?
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The gyms are not a very friendly space.
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So it s just about finding an alternative way to democratize exercise and bring it back to the people.
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It was ours, it got industrialized like a matter of decades ago and turned into this exclusive club where you have a uniform
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Why do you need a uniform?
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Yeah, unless you re playing a professional sport.
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Honestly.
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Well, you have this uniform that s getting sexier and sexier and sexier every year for both, for all the genders.
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And it s becoming more and more about just becoming a billboard for other people.
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No one s thinking about the inside.
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It s all very punitive.
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It s a punitive, like no pain, no gain is the stupidest slogan of our generation.
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One off.
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Right.
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Well, it s also with men.
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It s like, you just see managers shirtless everywhere who are just shredded and probably on steroids or human growth hormone.
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And so they re just like so ripped that you re just like, most men are like, I could never get to that point.
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Yeah, but f*** that.
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Get to happy.
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That person might be struggling with an eating disorder or some sort of body dysmorphia or orthorexia.
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We don t know what everyone s story is.
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Just focus on being happier in an hour than you are right now.
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Feeling autonomous.
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So many of us don t feel autonomous in the world because there s so much chaos and we re doom scrolling and we re looking at how the world is falling apart and our kids are changing faster than we were at their age and everyone feels so like, oh my God, it feels like I m in quicksand all of the time.
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It s like it s a quick way
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to immediately feel like, okay, my feet are back on the ground.
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And it s just temporary, but then you do it again.
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Absolutely.
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And so that s a big part of what we re doing over at Eyeway is exercise culture, but also neurology and learning that you can really make fundamental quick changes that it doesn t just have to be medication.
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I m pro-medication.
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And it doesn t just having to be access to the best therapy, which no one can afford en masse.
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There are so many ways you can rewire your own brain.
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And I think these people, people like Dr. Caroline Leaf, who was very kind on our podcast, are fantastic and important.
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And they re about no longer succumbing just to big pharma, but giving the power back to the people to have autonomy in their own recovery.
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It s empowering.
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That s inspiring.
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So what I m hearing you say is that when you started to talk to neurologists or brain scientists, you started to learn these ideas just make you happier and healthier overall.
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And so you started, you know, mortifying yourself by doing these things.
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Yeah.
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Sometimes on Instagram Live, yeah.
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And you started to see results.
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Yeah.
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I m happier than I ve ever been.
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I m way nicer than I used to be.
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You see it.
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Yeah, exactly.
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I could feel the energy right away when you walked in here.
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I go, something is shifting within you.
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Yeah.
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I thought you were bad before.
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I said it was just like... No, but I was defensive.
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You had more of an aggressive energy, right?
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Yeah, I was defensive.
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And I think there s nothing wrong with a little bit of female aggression, but I do think that what I had was more of a defensive energy because... Yeah, that s what it was.
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Again, I was flying so high and everyone was congratulating me so much that I was like...
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I was just waiting for the shoes to drop.
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And also everyone, every podcast I went on, someone was trying to trap me.
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And so I didn t know what you were going to be like.
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I didn t know what anyone was going to be like.
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Hopefully you didn t think I would try to trap you.
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No, you were great.
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I had you on my podcast.
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We had a great time.
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I just didn t know who to trust.
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I knew that the other shoe was going to drop at any moment.
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And I just didn t know when it was going to happen.
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And I had this anxiety.
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And I think also,
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Because everything was happening so fast and because I had that anxiety, I think that also accounts for some of my worse, like my poorer decisions with things that I said publicly, subjects I weighed into.
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Why am I talking about global conflict?
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What the f*** do I know about global conflict?
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But I felt pressured to because people were like, your silence on this is deafening.
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And so you re like, I don t want them to think I don t care.
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I want them to know I care about their country, but I don t know anything about their country.
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That s one of the biggest things when people say, I can t believe we re not supporting this or this or this or this.
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And you not saying something means you don t support it.
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I m like, maybe I just don t know what to say.
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Because I know this, the one thing about eating disorders, I m expected to know everything about everything.
6
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And my bad for trying to jump in when I didn t know, because I only ever created more mess.
6
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And for some reason, the media, like I can, and it can make a headline.
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So like, like, and I don t know why, like, but they, they,
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They know that I m divisive.
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They know I m controversial.
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They know that I m outspoken.
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And then they further polarize me by making the headline as egregious and violent as possible.
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It s always Jameela.
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Jameel slams.
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And often I ve just said a really thoughtful thing with like a love heart.
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Not always, but sometimes.
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What did it feel like to you when you had people that were maybe seemed like friends or acquaintances
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But when you were going through your stuff in the media and people, you know, went against you or just stopped talking to you for a period of time, how did they make you feel and how is your relationship with certain people like that once they started to come back around?
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They ll never be back on the inside ever.
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And I think it can be helpful in moments like that, as heartbreaking as they are, because it was heartbreaking.
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Yeah, I know the feeling.
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You felt very like, you feel very betrayed.
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And you also like, judge your own sense of judgment.
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You question yourself, which is never a nice, it s a shaky feeling when you
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when you can t trust your gut instinct.
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But truly, it s also an extraordinary magnifying glass of clarity that I m so grateful for.
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Because I have this extraordinary pool of people now left, who I know have got my back, who don t care, who don t look at the internet.
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who challenge me when I m wrong with grace and love, and they maintain the most fundamental quality that I think we all need, which is to have the benefit of the doubt.
7
100%.
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It s the benefit of the doubt is going to carry us to a better society.
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Yes, it is.
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We have lost the benefit of the doubt, especially for women.
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We have reserved quite a lot of it for men, but even then, we assume people s worst intentions, and that s not the world that I grew up in.
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Yeah, and if we re modeling this to our kids, what do we expect them to do?
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Have great values and, you know, be open to conversation?
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Yeah, but what s a great value?
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The values that are correct keep changing.
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So what s a great value?
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What does inclusion look like?
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What does diversity of friendship groups look like?
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Debate is the foundation of democracy.
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But we ve stopped that.
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Disagreement, rather, is the foundation of democracy.
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Yeah, but we ve stopped debating.
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We just said, no, I m not going to listen to you.
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I was going to yell at you and not listen.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I just, like I said, I ve done it before.
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Got me nowhere.
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Didn t make me feel good.
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Made me feel really lonely and sad and alienated me from people.
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I don t want to be alienated from people.
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I want to be friends.
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I want us to be together.
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Yeah.
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I don t want to have children, but this work is my way of, of making the world easier for my friends who are having children.
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If I can make it a safer world for their kids, then that makes up for the fact that I refuse to be called mother.
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Really, I ll tell you what, I m inspired by just the journey you re on.
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I m inspired that you got to experience so much in the last six, seven years.
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You got to experience a rise of fame quickly, and you did some things that you were proud of, but also things you weren t proud of, and you learned from them.
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You know, I m glad you got to experience people for you and then against you because you learn from it and I feel like you re a better person because of that and you have more perspective now.
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And at the end of the day, you ve got a lot of grace for yourself and grace for others.
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And it sounds to me like you want people to come together, you want people to be open-minded, you also want people to be accountable for their actions, and you want people to focus on their mental health and their optimizing of their own mental health, optimizing their own physical body and their spiritual health so they can have more peace and grace for themselves and others.
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That s what I m hearing you say.
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Yeah, we talk about mental health so much now in society, and it s a big part of the zeitgeist.
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I still think we re talking about it from not quite the right angle.
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We re still talking about it as though like, this would be a good thing to have on an individual basis.
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Wouldn t it be nice if you had, if you could make your mortgage payments and look after your kids and take them to all the practices and do all of this for everyone, but then also not want to kill yourself.
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It s definitely still seen as a surplus, whereas actually it should be the foundation of everything that we are going to.
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I can t believe mental health is not free in this country.
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I cannot believe it s not free in every single country.
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It is in many countries, but this should be, this is how we increase our GDP.
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People can work healthier.
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People can be healthier.
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They will be in the hospital less if they are happier because stress and loneliness and all these different things are huge factors as to what destroys people s health and immune systems.
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It would change the amount of people having to go into psychiatric care.
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It would change the amount of homelessness there is.
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It would change the way that we treat each other as a society.
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It would change everything.
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That s where the money should go.
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All the money should go there.
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If we could all, as a world, put the money, instead of in the military only, into mental health.
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If we could take some of those trillions and put it towards making the people and the children happier and having children have access to mental health.
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We wouldn t need so much military, there wouldn t be so much war.
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We wouldn t need the police as often as we do.
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We wouldn t need as many drugs or as many different things that we have now to try and numb the pain and help people escape from the pain.
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We wouldn t be sewn to our phones.
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And a lot of people who make a lot of money from us doing that know that.
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They don t make the move to improve our mental health, and so we have to do it ourselves.
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And people like us have to tell people.
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I m loving this message.
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I m inspired by this message.
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I think it s the most important thing in the world, and it s still treated as a luxury rather than a fundamental, and it should be the same as brushing your teeth or getting out in the sun or whatever, as opposed to eating good food.
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So I m like... We didn t know what we were going to talk about today.
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I keep inspired by this because, you know, I just love seeing the journey.
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I didn t know this is where you re at fully.
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So for you coming in, I was just like, wow, this is really inspiring.
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I have a couple of final questions for you that I think, well, I know I asked you the first time on the show.
7
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And so I m really fascinated to hear what the response is to them.
7
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And if it s the same or if it s changed since the last time.
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I don t remember what I said, so you ll get all messed up.
7
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Yeah, we ll link that back up so people can see the last one also.
7
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But I ll ask that in a second.
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But I want people to check out your shows.
7
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You got I Weigh, you got Bad Dates, which is hilarious.
7
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You re on social media, Jamila Jamil, on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, everywhere, IWeighCommunity.com.
7
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How else can we follow or support you with what you re up to right now?
7
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I think just join me at iWeigh or join me on my social media, join the mental health movement.
7
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I think that we really have an opportunity to change the future of marketing and mental health and include more people.
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Listen to I Weigh.
7
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It s a great podcast on neurology and mental health that offers you the autonomy to take it into your own hands.
7
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Listen to Bad Dates if you want to feel better about your own romantic life.
7
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It is the most disgusting and filthy and funny podcast with extraordinary comedians who give way too much information about their personal lives and sex lives.
7
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And again, it s the much needed escapism.
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I m able to provide information and the sad stuff and then the escapism.
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So I hope people listen to it because it is just an amazing vacation for your mind.
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That was great.
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And we need comedy.
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Comedy is one of the best medicines, you know.
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100% saved my life.
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Yeah, that s great.
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OK, so both those shows, Bad Dates, I Weigh, I m inspired.
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I want to hear these final few questions.
7
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Before I ask the final two questions, I want to acknowledge you, Jamila, for, again, the journey, transformation.
7
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It s really more, not a transformation, more the awareness that you have about yourself and who you ve been, where you re at now, or where you re going.
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And I really just love that you have that awareness for you, that you ve been on a healing journey, that you re
7
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able to see things from a different perspective.
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And for me, that s really inspiring.
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I think it s inspiring when I can do that and anyone can do that.
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So I m inspired by the journey you re on, and it s really cool to see you right now in this space.
7
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Because most importantly, you re happy and you re healthy.
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Yeah.
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And that s, for me, really inspiring to see you in a space like that.
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It also, speaking of cancel culture, goes to show that when people criticize you, some good can come from it.
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Even if I didn t always make a public notes apology statement about everything, I was listening.
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I was listening when people pulled me out.
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And so I make those tweaks sometimes privately because sometimes it s easier to make change privately.
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And we need to become aware that it s okay to have a learning journey privately.
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You do not have to share every single thing.
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I m not going to have a pap smear on live
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IG, I need to look after my brain privately with space and mess.
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You don t need an opinion from every person on everything you do.
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No, and everyone doesn t have to be privy to every single thing about all of our lives.
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It s a very big misconception about how we re supposed to conduct ourselves because of how much some people choose to share on social media.
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But I m listening, and I m changing.
7
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But also, the people who spoke to me constructively were the ones who got in.
7
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and the people who almost pushed me over the edge and killed me or made me so angry that I didn t want to fight for anyone and give up were the people who abused me.
7
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I didn t need to be sent death threats or rape threats or threats that I m going to be ostracized or that people are going to boycott me or call for me to be fired.
7
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I didn t need that to change.
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The people who spoke to me kindly and with peace
7
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and with the best of intention, who believed in me to change, are the ones who changed me.
7
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So criticism can be fantastic.
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I am a product of that criticism, but from love.
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Conscious criticism.
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Those are the people that help me.
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The other people did nothing but cause me stress and almost make me give up on everything, including my own life.
7
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You keep inspiring me with this message, so I m grateful that you re sharing it.
7
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And if you guys are inspired, make sure to leave a comment below of the part of this conversation.
7
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This is a drinking game now for how many times Lewis has said inspired.
7
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I don t know why.
7
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This is really inspiring.
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You can ask my team, but I haven t said that to anyone in this way.
7
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Has he been calling everyone inspiring?
7
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Inspiring in certain ways, but not like this.
7
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OK.
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But you can ask them afterwards.
7
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I ll be watching.
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Everyone s inspiring, but the way in how you view things differently is inspiring.
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It s the fact that you ve got the before and after.
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More extreme in another way.
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We love a before and after.
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in our generation, and so this is my before and after.
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I just wasn t expecting it.
8
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So I think that s what s inspiring, because you re in a peaceful place, which I m really excited about for you personally.
8
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So I m acknowledging for that, and I want you to hear that acknowledgement.
8
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Just tell me one more time that you find me inspiring.
8
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Yeah, exactly.
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I do find you inspiring.
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But I acknowledge it for the journey.
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I think it s really cool.
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And I think the thing that is inspiring about it is for people that were in that state of mind that you were in now, that are still angry and upset and screaming and fighting.
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And maybe it s justified, their anger, but it s not going to get across with what
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to make the change they want in the best way possible.
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But also we don t value humility.
8
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We value self-flagellation, eternal self-flagellation, but we don t actually value true humility.
8
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And when someone shows it, we normally **** on them.
8
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We normally make fun of them and be like, see, I knew you d done that thing wrong.
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I m gonna use this opportunity to make you feel even worse.
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It s like, that s not the way.
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That s not how we treat children, I hope.
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And we re all just children.
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We re just children who are bigger.
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We ve got jobs and bills and stress, but we re all just massive kids.
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Whenever I m at one of my boyfriend s concerts, I don t watch him.
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I watch the audience because he s an amazing musician.
8
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He s doing this thing that is incredible.
8
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He s not just, you know, pressing a button and all the music plays.
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He s actually playing like three instruments at the same time and singing and people are watching him and they re enjoying what he s doing.
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The songs mean something to him and they re all looking at him and they re not thinking about themselves or their lives or anything else.
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They re just focusing on one thing.
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And this is with any show, I m just giving an example of what I ve seen.
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And they look like babies.
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They look like innocent babies and you can see their humanity.
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I urge anyone at any concert or any cinema to look around for a second and see people s inner child.
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When all the defences aren t up and all the arbitrary obligations that we get when we re 18 suddenly come along.
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look for the inner child in everyone.
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I do that with everyone, even the people I argue with.
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I look for that, and I don t mean that in a condescending way.
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But we all just want the same shit we wanted when we were babies.
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We were lonely, we are hungry, we are tired, we re disgruntled, we re not getting what we need.
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And before we used to cry and we used to talk about it, but now we re not allowed to.
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But we still feel all those feelings.
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So how do we look after the child in all of us, I think?
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I like this.
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Um... I swear I haven t taken, like, ayahuasca.
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Not that there s anything wrong with that, but I know I m speaking like someone who s taken ayahuasca.
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SPEAKER_00
I haven t taken it.
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SPEAKER_01
I haven t taken any, uh, psilocybin.
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SPEAKER_00
There you go.
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Wow, that s the first person in Hollywood who s said that.
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Yeah.
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I m afraid.
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I was like, I m already crazy.
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I don t need... That might mess up your memoir, yeah.
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I want to tip that one over the edge.
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Uh...
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Okay, these last two questions, this is called the Three Truths.
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I asked you this before, you may not remember it, that s okay, but it s called the Three Truths.
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So it s a hypothetical question.
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Imagine you get to live as long as you want, but it s your last day on Earth, far in the future.
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You get to experience, accomplish, not accomplish, all the things you want to do.
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Um, and you live a beautiful life, but it s the last day.
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And for whatever reason on this last day, you have to take everything that you ve ever said with you, all the content, all the TV shows, all this interview, the tweets, whatever you create in the future, it s all gone for whatever reason.
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And all you get to leave behind to the world are these three final truths, three lessons that you ve learned or that you think you will learn.
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for the rest of your time that you would leave behind that you think are important for people.
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What would be those three truths for you?
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Cuddles are the most important thing on earth.
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I really mean that.
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They are truly the most important thing on Earth.
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Physical affection, some sort form of physical touch is the most important thing in the world.
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Try and access it wherever you can, even if you have to pay for it.
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Whatever you need to do.
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They have cuddle cafes in Japan.
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SPEAKER_00
Really?
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Highly recommend.
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SPEAKER_01
Highly recommend.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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Wow.
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But cuddles are the most important thing in the world.
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Never trust a fart.
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SPEAKER_01
So it s deep and meaningful, I hope you can see that.
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I m a deep philosophical guy.
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But it s true, and I ve learned that one the hard way.
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Never justified.
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And that shame never achieves anything productive.
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Love it.
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Final question, what s your definition of greatness now?
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For me personally, greatness would just
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It s something to do with making people laugh.
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Being able to give people the gift of laughter, whether it s at my expense or in something that I m making.
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Even the people who love to hate me.
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I m like, you re welcome.
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Like, it brings me, like, there are some people who really enjoy making fun of me or hating me.
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And they re having a good time and they re bonding over it.
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Yeah.
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And I love that for them.
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But giving people the gift of laughter, to me, is the most connected I can feel to a human being.
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Almost more than sex.
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Like, it is just the most, like, our souls are intertwined in that moment.
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We re on the exact same wavelength.
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And laughter has been the main thing that saved my life.
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more than any medicine or operation or anything, laughter has been the key to my survival.
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And so if I m lucky enough to get to keep doing that forever, or even for another few years, I d be thrilled.
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I ve had my fair share.
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I m ready to go.
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I don t have to get to do this any longer.
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But that to me is greatness as being, you know, remembered the way that I remember, not even remember, but as I leave this world, I want
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God, I hope he knew this when he left, but I hope Robin Williams remembered at the very end how much joy he brought, how much he made us laugh.
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Because I have pictures of him in my house, you know, and as like a kind of almost like a shrine to that man because of how many of my darkest moments were alleviated because of him.
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And I pray that he
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about that, even for a fleeting second, towards the end of his life, because it s so... Did you ever get to meet him?
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SPEAKER_01
I never got to meet him.
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SPEAKER_00
No, no, I never got to meet him.
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SPEAKER_00
I had one moment with him.
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SPEAKER_00
Wow.
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SPEAKER_00
Well, I mean, I didn t speak to him, but I was on a plane that he was on, and he was in the front seat.
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I was walking on the plane, and right before I even got on the plane, I felt an energy of, like, crossing onto, like, I m entering the plane, and I could, like, hear something.
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SPEAKER_00
I was like, that sounds interesting.
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Sounds familiar.
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And I saw him talking to the person sitting next to him in first class right there.
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He was going from New York to LA.
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and he was on he was like telling some joke and like people were just like in it right and luckily
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people were stopped putting their bags up.
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And so I was just kind of standing there for like 60 seconds watching like this close from him and just seeing him do his magic.
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And I was like, wow, that s a pretty funny guy.
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And, uh, unfortunately, you know, that was the only time I met him, but it was, I didn t meet him, but I saw him and I got to experience it.
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But I was just like, man, this guy brought so much joy and laughter to so many people around the world.
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And, uh, so I love that definition of greatness for you.
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And, uh, I m so grateful you were, you came back on and you ve shared and, uh,
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Thank you again for making me laugh as well as inspiring me, because I had to throw that in one more time.
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Thanks for being here, I appreciate you.
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I hope today s episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness.
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Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today s show with all the important links.
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And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad-free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel on Apple Podcast.
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SPEAKER_00
If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend, leave us a review over on Apple podcast, and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis Howes.
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I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better.
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And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness Newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com slash newsletter.
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And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.
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And now it s time to go out there and do something great.