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My name is Lee Hawkins.
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I ve been a journalist for over 25 years.
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On my new podcast, What Happened in Alabama, I get answers to some of the hardest questions about how things came to be for many black Americans and the truth that must come before any reconciliation can happen.
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I investigate my family history, my upbringing in Minnesota, and my father s painful nightmares about growing up in Alabama.
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What Happened in Alabama is a new series confronting the cycles of trauma for myself, my family, and for many Black Americans.
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Listen now.
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Friends, I m wishing you and yours a happy Pride Month.
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And as we celebrate, I also want to make sure that we keep in mind that the fight for our rights is a 12-month-a-year, round-the-clock commitment.
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It s currently a very scary and troubling time out there for the greater LGBTQ community.
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And let s not forget that as much progress as we ve made, there s still so, so much more left to do.
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So take some time to donate, volunteer, get informed, get people around you informed.
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do whatever you can do to help.
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And if you need help or someone to talk to, know that there are so many resources out there, like the Trevor Project, GLAAD, and the Human Rights Campaign.
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And it s always good to get involved on a local level as well.
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All right, now let s start the show.
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SPEAKER_03
Hi, Tig.
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How s it going?
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Going well.
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And you?
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Good.
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We re not podcasting just yet.
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Cool.
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SPEAKER_03
So I can tell you the truth?
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SPEAKER_03
Okay.
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I m terrible.
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I m just kidding.
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Good to know going into this.
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You re in a terrible place.
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Here we go.
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I m in the worst place of my life, Tig.
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And we re rolling.
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This podcast is all I have.
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This podcast is all I have.
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This is Don t Ask Tig, I m Tig Notaro, and since pearls of wisdom aren t vegan, you won t find any on this show.
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My guest today is a stand-up comic, actor, and writer.
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His resume includes shows like Good Trouble, Adam Ruins Everything, and the hit film Friendsgiving.
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He s performed stand-up on talk shows like Ellen and Conan, and created, wrote, and starred in the GLAAD Award-nominated TV series, Take My Wife.
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You can stream his special, A Different Kind of Dude, on Comedy Central s YouTube channel.
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River Butcher, welcome to Don t Ask Tig.
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Oh, my God, Tig.
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Thanks for having me.
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So happy to be here.
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Thanks for being here.
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SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
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Thanks for reading all that.
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SPEAKER_03
That was nice to hear.
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SPEAKER_02
Well, you ve done a lot.
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Apparently.
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
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I did do those things.
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I don t even know when we met.
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SPEAKER_03
I mean, I feel like we met out here, right?
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SPEAKER_03
Possibly.
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Well, I did see you as a fan not a comic yet in Chicago.
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2009 or 2010, somewhere in there.
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SPEAKER_03
Oh, you did?
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Where?
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SPEAKER_03
I don t remember the name of the venue.
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I don t even know if it s a venue anymore, but yeah.
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Okay.
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SPEAKER_02
Wait, we met then when you weren t a comedian yet?
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SPEAKER_03
Yeah, I said hi.
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SPEAKER_02
Oh.
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And took a photo, I think.
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SPEAKER_03
I lost the photo though.
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SPEAKER_02
All right.
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SPEAKER_03
Lost it on MySpace somewhere.
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SPEAKER_02
Oh my gosh.
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Isn t that funny?
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It was MySpace days.
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Oh yeah, MySpace days.
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SPEAKER_02
Is that at all happening or functioning?
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
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Oh really?
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It s still there.
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SPEAKER_03
Like I used to have a joke about it, which was not a good joke, but that you could log into your MySpace using Facebook.
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SPEAKER_02
I highly doubt Friendster is still going, or is it?
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SPEAKER_02
Oh, my God.
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I wish we should pause the podcast and check it out.
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SPEAKER_02
That feels like the right name for a social media platform.
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SPEAKER_02
Totally.
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SPEAKER_02
Friendster.
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SPEAKER_03
Somebody should reboot Friendster because no Gen Z people even know what that is.
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And so they would be like, this is great.
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I mean, we re way past 2010.
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You re a successful comedian.
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You are currently on tour.
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How s the road treating you?
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I mean, the road s good.
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You know, I m doing a lot more clubs than I ve done before.
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And so that s like, I mean, you know, it s like a totally different muscle than doing like a theater for sure.
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It s very different than that.
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And even just like, you don t sort of like music, indie, like alternative venues too.
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It s like, you know, way different than that.
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So it s not a negative thing.
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It s just like, it s work.
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Some of the sets, it s like, oh, I m, I m working right now.
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I am like pushing this up a hill or whatever and like, we re having fun and I m having fun, but it s work, you know?
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And then there s some sets that you re like, that s the thing about Clubs though, is that the Friday night late show over the weekend was like fun.
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I think in part was because the early show was like work, you know?
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So it was just kind of like an interesting, I don t know, it s just an interesting like new practice and way of working things out.
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SPEAKER_02
And so when you say you re doing more clubs than you have, what were you doing before?
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I did a theater tour once.
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And so that was like, you know, 1500.
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It s not like giant theaters or anything like that.
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1500 is big, not diminishing that.
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And then I did sort of like music venues.
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And what is your favorite type of venue to perform in?
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For me, it s hard to say one thing over the other.
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Although I do think that I like the music venue vibe because it s like smaller and intimate.
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And typically, the audience is comprised of a majority of people who came to see you, as opposed to a comedy club, where like, maybe 50% sometimes, you know, like, yeah, sometimes it s like a season ticket holder.
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And they re just like, let s go do this, you know?
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it s like, oh, this person s from Comedy Central.
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Let s go see comedy tonight.
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SPEAKER_03
Yeah, exactly.
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This straight white guy is from Comedy Central.
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I m like, well, I got a lot of things I got to let you know about.
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But it s I mean, it s just like a challenge in a different way, because like, it s still funny, so it doesn t matter.
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Speaking of going on stage in middle America, and as you just said, that people would say, oh, here s a straight white guy, and then you re like, oh, I have some other things to tell you about myself.
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How does it go over when you explain?
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I mean, I think, here s what s funny about it, Tig, is that- Tell me later.
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I will, Tig.
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So Tig.
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I forget that I need to say those things because I m me.
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I m sure you can relate to this.
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And like, I don t mean to like, assume things.
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I just forget, you know?
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And so then sometimes what I learned in Los Angeles is like, I ll just start telling these jokes and people don t realize.
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Like, I opened for my friend Mateo Lane.
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He was at the Ace Theater.
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And that s like, you know, a gay audience, but they don t know who I am.
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They re his audience.
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And I just like made this assumption like, oh, all these people know that I m trans, like all these people know this.
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And what I ve learned is they don t.
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Because like, you know, not to, I don t want to get into all the specifics and ethics of passing and all that business or whatever, because it s not up to me.
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SPEAKER_03
It s just like, I forget that that s what s happening.
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Yeah.
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You know, like, I forget that that s going on.
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And it s fascinating to me.
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Like, I ve never said this joke out loud, because I forget every time I m on stage.
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But my lived experience is that everyone thinks I m a girl in every space that I m in.
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And what I ve realized now is like, the only person in a show that thinks I m a girl is me.
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Yeah.
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Do you know what I mean?
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Like, I don t think I am because I know I m not.
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_02
Now, you re from Ohio.
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SPEAKER_03
Yes.
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So, you ve talked about the cultural differences between what we might call red and blue states.
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And what do you think is most important for people from one side of that divide to understand about the other?
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I just don t think there s actually sides, you know, especially not when you talk about like the state level.
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I think it s become a convenient way to discuss political views.
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But I think that it s dripped down too much to it s just become a black and white thing.
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It s either a red state or a blue state.
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And I think it s easy to forget that those states are actually places where lots of people live.
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And I can sort of circle it back to the question that you just asked me that I didn t really answer, which is like, how did it go over or how does it go over in the sort of like middle America audiences?
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And what s interesting is at my last show on a Sunday, so I had, you know, a feature that was doing 20 minutes and like right in the middle of his set, I was in the green room listening.
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Are you seriously sitting in the front row in a MAGA hat right now?
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I knew his set from The Weeknd, so I was like, that must actually be happening.
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So I like put my head out and I was like, holy shit, there s a dude in a mega hat in the front row.
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I was like, honestly freaking out, you know, just going like, what am I going to do?
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Like, how is this, like just losing it, you know?
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And I texted a couple of comic friends and like calmed down and remembered like, oh, this is my job and this is what I do.
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And like, it s going to work out.
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First I was like, I ll kick him out.
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And I was like, I m not going to kick him out.
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That s what he wants to do to me.
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Maybe, you know, like I m not going to do back.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_03
Just like without, you know, the hat is a statement, but I don t know.
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I don t know what he means by that, actually.
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That s a pretty big statement, you know?
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And so I ended up doing it and I didn t change any of my jokes and he didn t leave.
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And everything was all right, you know?
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And so I don t want to diminish anything that s going on, because I think fascism is not just on the rise, but already happening.
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And that s what it is, you know?
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But at the same time, we still are people.
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I try to do my best to separate the actual people from the laws that are being passed in states because I know that not everyone in that state agrees with that or wants that or believes in it.
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I think each side actually needs to see it that way.
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None of us are monoliths, you know, like the state of Texas has a lot of people in it.
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And I think that it s easy also to forget that, you know, queer people live in these places and to boycott them or avoid them or diminish them.
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SPEAKER_03
You re also diminishing those people, too.
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My, like, wrath is with those in power, not the actual people in the state.
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I agree.
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And, you know, being from Mississippi, I feel very strongly that
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You can t just push an entire state aside because of, you know, it falls in a red or blue category because there are individuals that live there.
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And, you know, I remember I was in Jackson, Mississippi, and had just received an award for something and was walking down the street with my brother and stepfather, and this guy that was in a restaurant saw me, came running out, chased us down, and just said, Thank you so much
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for shining a light on Mississippi and not forgetting all of us and not treating us like we are all one type of person.
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And it was so meaningful and touching to me.
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Everybody is everywhere, all types of people.
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And I think that it s important to keep that in mind.
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SPEAKER_02
But we are, you know, a podcast here to give people out there in the world help with advice.
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SPEAKER_02
And I m curious if you re okay to move over into that portion of the show.
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SPEAKER_03
Let s move on over.
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SPEAKER_03
I m down.
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SPEAKER_02
All right.
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Our first question is from a stand-up fan who wants the inside scoop.
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Annie writes, hey Tig, I m planning on getting tickets to one of your upcoming shows.
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I cannot wait.
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SPEAKER_02
I m trying to decide if I should get tickets to the early show or the later show.
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SPEAKER_02
Weighing the pros and cons, I thought, why not go straight to the source?
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SPEAKER_02
Which one do you advise I go to?
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Which one is going to be better and funnier so I can really get my money s worth?
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SPEAKER_02
Thanks.
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SPEAKER_02
Wow.
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River.
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I mean, how do you possibly answer this?
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How do you possibly answer this?
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My brain is going a million miles a minute because I m thinking of all the logistics of so many things.
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SPEAKER_03
I m like, well, what city is this in?
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SPEAKER_03
How long have you been touring?
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SPEAKER_03
Where is this on the stuff?
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SPEAKER_03
What day of the week is it?
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SPEAKER_03
Is it a seven o clock show or is it an eight o clock show?
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SPEAKER_03
Is it nine thirty or is it ten thirty?
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SPEAKER_02
What have we got going on?
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SPEAKER_02
And then you take all of that information, you swirl it around and there s still no sense to be made.
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SPEAKER_02
You re like, OK, well, it all teed up for the early show to be great, but that was the worst show of my career.
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SPEAKER_02
That s right.
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
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And so, Annie, I mean, you have to take a gamble as much as comedians take a gamble.
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I mean, we are gambling every second of our lives.
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Every second it s a gamble.
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So, Annie, I mean, you re rolling the dice.
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SPEAKER_02
We re rolling the dice.
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I ll see you soon, whether it s early or late.
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SPEAKER_02
River, sit tight.
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SPEAKER_02
More questions after a very quick break.
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And we re back.
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River, this next question is all about making a dramatic exit.
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SPEAKER_02
Robert writes, without having a door to slam or a phone cradle, how does one storm off in a virtual environment?
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SPEAKER_02
I mean, don t you just walk off?
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SPEAKER_03
Is this a virtual environment like The Sims or like a Zoom?
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I assumed it was a Zoom.
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SPEAKER_02
I do my show holding a gavel.
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SPEAKER_02
Nice.
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SPEAKER_02
It s just something I hold on to when I m doing my podcast.
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SPEAKER_03
When did that pop into your life?
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SPEAKER_02
I mean, for years.
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SPEAKER_02
I was on an episode of Sarah Silverman s I Love You America.
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SPEAKER_02
And I was on a segment where I was learning to be an auctioneer.
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SPEAKER_02
And the auctioneer that was teaching me gave me this gavel and my name is engraved on
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SPEAKER_03
Does it say Colonel?
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SPEAKER_02
Colonel Tig Notaro.
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02
But it s on my desk, and I just have it in my hands when I m doing my podcast.
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SPEAKER_02
And so I guess I could storm off and be like, you know, just
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SPEAKER_02
I don t know if I just ruined the sound quality of the show, but it feels like it s even more effective if you get up from your seat and they see you storming away from your Zoom.
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02
I mean, I think there would be mouths agape.
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SPEAKER_03
Absolutely.
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SPEAKER_03
I mean, you could also type, you know, the classic, like, asterisk, storms off, asterisk, into the chat, then get up, do it, you know?
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SPEAKER_03
And then act it out.
0
SPEAKER_03
Do a little, you know, Grover from Sesame Street near far kind of a thing with the camera, you know?
0
SPEAKER_02
Uh-huh.
0
SPEAKER_02
Or you could say something like, you sicko.
0
SPEAKER_02
And then just hang up or block your camera and then see if you can hear them talk about you.
0
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_03
You re all out of order, something like that.
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SPEAKER_02
Yes, exactly.
0
SPEAKER_03
These are great ideas.
0
SPEAKER_02
All right.
0
SPEAKER_02
Well, there you go.
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SPEAKER_02
Robert, try that and write me back.
0
SPEAKER_02
Also, I m curious as to why you re needing to storm off in the first place.
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SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_03
I mean, that might be what you really need advice about.
0
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_02
River, you ve spoken in your stand-up about your personal pronouns, which are he, him.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that s right.
0
SPEAKER_02
I m hoping you can help our next listener who s currently navigating their own pronoun journey.
0
SPEAKER_01
Oh, great.
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SPEAKER_02
George writes,
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After a lifetime of identifying as female, I recently discovered that I am non-binary.
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SPEAKER_02
It was such a relief.
0
SPEAKER_02
I have a very accepting and loving family, but I work as a horse riding instructor for people from many different backgrounds who may not understand or accept me being non-binary.
0
SPEAKER_02
Do I tell them?
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SPEAKER_02
Do I ask them to call me my preferred name, George, instead of Georgia?
0
SPEAKER_02
Do I try to enforce my pronouns, they, them?
0
SPEAKER_02
Or do I just happily go about my life knowing that I know who I am and let them call me what they feel comfortable with?
0
SPEAKER_03
I think my answer to that is yes.
0
SPEAKER_02
And just plug that into anywhere?
0
SPEAKER_03
Well, I mean, that s the thing is like what I ve learned, because I m not not non-binary, but I just think I had a not a phase, but a moment where in between understanding like, oh, I m actually a trans man, like before.
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SPEAKER_03
I needed to walk through that space to understand myself as like part of my journey of understanding what was going on for me.
0
SPEAKER_03
And I felt the same way as George, which is like, I felt like a relief, you know, or I was like, oh, okay.
0
SPEAKER_03
And then I felt more relief when I realized like, oh, I m actually like a dude.
0
SPEAKER_03
And that s cool.
0
SPEAKER_03
And so it s not like I m not non-binary.
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SPEAKER_03
It s just that I am a dude, but like sort of inside spiritually and then in my sort of like understanding
1
SPEAKER_01
of the world is like non-binary.
1
SPEAKER_01
So I had a similar experience to George about like people not calling me the name that I use.
1
SPEAKER_01
I also just offer like, and I had to learn this too, that like preferred is just not a thing anymore.
1
SPEAKER_01
And it s actually just like, George is my name.
1
SPEAKER_01
I used to go by this name and George is my name now.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like it s not, I don t have preferred pronouns.
1
SPEAKER_01
I just have pronouns and these are what they are, you know?
1
SPEAKER_01
And the thing is like,
1
SPEAKER_01
What I had to learn is sometimes I had to tell somebody a couple times, and then I had to learn my point of like, okay, I ve told them enough times.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s kind of on them.
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SPEAKER_01
And I m not going to take it personally when they keep calling me something that I don t like, because they know that.
1
SPEAKER_01
This is not about me.
1
SPEAKER_01
This is their inability to do it.
1
SPEAKER_01
And in some cases, I had to ask people for help, you know, like, on a set where, like, I was continually the only person that was saying, like, please stop calling me she, you know, like, and had to say, like, can you talk to this person?
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SPEAKER_01
And they did, and it changed.
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SPEAKER_01
Because sometimes, some people, it takes someone else to, like, make them validate what you re saying, which is, you know, unfortunate, but it s just the way that the world works.
1
SPEAKER_01
So,
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SPEAKER_01
Essentially, I would say to George, like, you re on your journey of understanding the importance of these things to you.
1
SPEAKER_01
And you re in a space, and we re continually in spaces, where people just don t understand.
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SPEAKER_01
And like, I got to a place where I did feel solid enough in myself that when those things came at me, they just sort of flew by.
1
SPEAKER_01
But I do think it was part of my understanding of myself is like, once I started using he,
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SPEAKER_01
and started looking more like myself, it just is like a non-issue.
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SPEAKER_01
I couldn t tell you the last time somebody used my old name that wasn t like in a text thing.
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SPEAKER_02
And nobody s mistaking you for she or her.
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SPEAKER_01
That just doesn t happen anymore.
1
SPEAKER_02
And how do you feel when somebody does understand and then they slip up or make a mistake because they ve known you for maybe decades?
1
SPEAKER_01
That s exactly how I feel.
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SPEAKER_01
I m like, the only people that call me by my old name are people that I ve known for a really long time.
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And I know that that s what it is.
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There s this quote by Leslie Feinberg, which is like, I ve had people treat me with respect using the wrong pronouns, and I ve had people treat me with disrespect using the right ones.
1
SPEAKER_01
So it s like, each individual interaction is its own thing.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s intention.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
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And I can t always fully know all of it.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I don t also want to ignore that it s like it s incredibly taxing.
1
SPEAKER_01
It was very it was very taxing for like a long time, you know?
1
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Yeah, I m sure.
1
SPEAKER_01
But once I got right with myself and understood myself and was like, this is like not up for debate, it became less taxing because I was just like, this is this person s issue.
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SPEAKER_01
It s actually not mine.
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And there s not something I could be doing differently.
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Like once I spoke up for myself and was like, this is what it is.
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And so like, please get on board.
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And then if they can t, it s like, toot toot trains leaving the station.
1
SPEAKER_01
You re not on board and I ll see you later.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
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I try to have as much grace for other people with my name or pronouns or whatever, especially like in my family, because that s a little harder.
1
SPEAKER_01
I have to remember that, you know, there are people in my life that have changed their name and pronouns and I slip up because I m a human being, you know, like one of my best friends from since we were 10.
1
SPEAKER_01
She s trans, and my brain does not think of her name when I think of her.
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And I m just like, oh yeah, there it is, it makes sense.
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It s not intentional, but I just practice slowing down even more when I m talking to her.
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Because I m just like, I don t want to deadname her because I know for her it s really painful.
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And I m just like, okay, heard, you know?
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I will slow down, you know?
1
SPEAKER_02
I feel like I ve mentioned this, I bring it up all the time just because it was such a moment that I love in my life that pertains to this.
1
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My stepfather had come to visit and this was like nine years ago.
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And Stephanie s mother at the time was dating this man whose child was transitioning female to male.
1
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and did not look male yet.
1
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And so I told my stepfather, who did not live in a progressive area, was 75 years old, you know, just not his world at all.
1
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And I said, hey, I just want to give you a heads up, Jim s child will be joining us for dinner and they are going to look like a female but is transitioning to male and goes by he and him.
1
SPEAKER_02
This was eight years ago when it wasn t even as much of a conversation as it is now.
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And my stepfather said, well, I ll call anybody whatever they want me to call them.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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And he had no follow up questions.
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It was just like, yeah, sure.
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Yeah.
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And that s how he spent the evening was calling somebody by the name that they chose and using he him pronouns.
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And I was just like, that s awesome.
1
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Yeah, it really is that simple.
1
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You know, it s like, yeah, yeah.
1
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I used to have a joke about it.
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Like, you know, if somebody was named Richard and they were like, Hey, I m Richard.
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And you re like, what s up, Dick?
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You know, it s like, why would you do that?
1
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You know, like, you re the dick.
1
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You know, like, you re being purposely rude, you know?
1
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And I also understand it s a little more complicated than that because of perception and all those things, but that perception is just something, is also an illusion, you know?
1
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Because, like, these things that we perceive as female and male are not a monolith, you know?
1
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They re just not.
1
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So, that s awesome that your stepdad was like, sure, whatever, you know?
1
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And that s something I would say to George is,
1
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you know, it s easy and I m doing it to focus on the people who aren t going to do it right.
1
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But what kept giving me the ability and like faith and confidence to continue to stand up for myself or just like stand in my
1
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truth as opposed to like, not stand up for myself, but stand up for myself, was all the people who were like your stepdad, who were like, great, sounds good, whatever, you know, who were like, into it, but it s also not a big deal, you know, like, because it can also go the other way where somebody is like, so supportive that you feel like, I don t know, like an exhibit at a science museum or something, you know?
1
SPEAKER_01
You re like, okay, can we stop talking about it now?
1
SPEAKER_01
Because I really don t want to talk about this all night.
1
SPEAKER_01
So, you know, it s really just that those people and no one is better than anyone else.
1
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It s just like, I m grateful for the whole experience, as difficult as it could be, because I got to have people like your stepdad who were just like, I don t know how, what his age is, but you know, just be surprised, you know?
1
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Like, there s a woman that I m pals with in Texas who s like, you know, we ve been friends for a little while, and she knew me before I even was doing, like, TheyThem and stuff like that.
1
SPEAKER_01
And recently was like, well, I mean, you know, I ve just always known you as a guy.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like, even before you told me, like, I just, that s always how I related to you, as a guy.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, this is so powerful.
1
SPEAKER_01
You know, to be like, yeah, you really saw me, even though, you know, we didn t talk about it until now.
1
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It s just cool.
1
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I think also something that s really wonderful that you work with animals, they don t really care about any of this.
1
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And so you get to just hang out with these creatures that like, love you and love to be around you.
1
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So I feel like anytime it doesn t go the way you wish it would go, you can just sort of connect with those animals who like love and appreciate you for who you are, you know, beyond the binary and all this other human business.
1
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I just always go back to, we re all alive on this planet and should be able to live happy, thriving lives.
1
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And let me do my thing.
1
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I m not harming you in the slightest bit.
1
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Let me do my thing.
1
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And I know that that s obvious to me and you, but when I just look at people harassing others or refusing to let them, I mean, just flat out live.
1
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And that s what it is.
1
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You are living.
1
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It s so obvious, but it s not to everyone, but it s necessary.
1
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People need to be able to live.
1
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And so, George, I wish you the absolute best and congratulations on your journey and River.
1
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I wish you all the best.
1
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We re going to take a quick break to answer a question that came in our Therapy Etiquette inbox.
1
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This segment is where we answer those awkward questions we all have as people getting the professional help we need and deserve and is sponsored by BetterHelp.
1
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Today s question was sent in from a listener named Chris.
1
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Chris writes,
1
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Hi Tig, long-time listener, first-time questioner.
1
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I recently lost a close friend of mine in a car accident, and honestly, I m devastated by his sudden death.
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I m feeling heartbroken, and the grief feels overwhelming sometimes.
1
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I ve been trying to power through with work and being out in social situations, but I m still feeling the heaviness and loss.
1
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My sister suggested that I consider seeing a therapist to help me work through my grief.
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But honestly, the thought makes me anxious.
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I m embarrassed to admit that I felt like therapy was for people that are consistently, quote unquote, unstable.
1
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And plus, as a guy, I feel like I should be able to handle my grief on my own.
1
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What can I do to manage my anxiety and feel more comfortable about starting therapy?
1
SPEAKER_02
Oh, man, Chris, I am so sorry to hear about losing your friend so suddenly.
1
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From your brief message, it seems like you re able to name your feelings of overwhelm and grief.
1
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That s so incredibly normal.
1
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Even if others experience grief differently, it seems like you want to do something more for yourself.
1
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to start healing, even if you re ambivalent about therapy.
1
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I m also hearing that you re really self-aware about how men are socialized to think about mental health and therapy and feelings in general, I guess.
1
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And even today, there s a unique stigma around seeking therapy as a man.
1
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There s a lot of pressure to hold it together and seem quote unquote stable, but there s nothing stable about a sudden and traumatic loss.
1
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And you mentioned you re having trouble dealing with it alone.
1
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I wonder if you can think of a first therapy meeting as just an experiment, something you can try out knowing you can always find a better match that makes you comfortable
1
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or even put it aside if it feels really forced.
1
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I m wondering if you d be interested in maybe a men s group or a grief group.
1
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I mean, I know that could seem like a heavy lift right now, but it s possible you could feel a little less alone working through your feelings with other guys in similar situations and sharing vulnerability.
1
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with others could maybe help reset the narrative that men need to sit with their pain alone.
1
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Everything you ve said here is also great to bring to a first intake session with a potential therapist.
1
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How they respond will be informative.
1
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Is this someone who sees your hesitation while empowering you to get the help you need?
1
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Okay, well, I hope this helps.
1
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And again, Chris, I am so, so sorry to hear about your loss.
1
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As always,
1
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Thank you to our therapy etiquette sponsor, BetterHelp.
1
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If you have any questions about the unspoken rules of therapy etiquette, share them with us by calling 833-275-8444 or visiting DontAskTig.org slash contact.
1
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Now let s get back to the show.
1
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We ve got one more segment before we go.
1
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Please join me inside.
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The Confession Booth Welcome to the Confession Booth.
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The Don t Ask Tig Confession Booth features listeners sharing secrets they ve never told anyone in order for us to give them the advice they re afraid to ask for.
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Today s confession was submitted by Rachel.
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Rachel writes, hi Tig and guest.
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When my daughter first got a phone at age 11, the deal was that I could read her texts to be sure there was nothing unsafe or inappropriate going on, and there never was.
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When she turned 12, I agreed I wouldn t read them anymore because she felt like she couldn t speak openly to her friends about stuff like crushes, for example, if she knew I d see it.
1
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But I still secretly read her texts.
1
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I get that she needs to feel like her conversations are private, but I also think she s too young to be texting and on social media with no oversight.
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So, what do I do when I see something in her texts that I d like to talk to her about?
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How can I bring it up without revealing that I ve basically been spying on her?
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SPEAKER_02
Oh, Rachel.
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First of all, I think it s really important to make sure that kids aren t getting phones or on social media or publicly on social media until a certain point.
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I mean, our sons have this, they have these little
1
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tablets.
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They think they re iPads.
1
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And they are so far from being iPads.
1
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They can barely watch or do anything.
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And they think when they go to school that they re talking to their friends about video games and TV shows and in ways that Stephanie and I are like, cracking up like they don t even realize they re not really playing video games.
1
SPEAKER_02
So, it s tricky because even if kids get a phone or are online and social media at what would be, quote-unquote, an appropriate age, it does still seem like you have to monitor things.
1
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And I really feel like I m unfortunately the worst person to ask about this because my kids are, they ll be seven next month.
1
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And I also feel like...
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I feel like I m so behind the curve.
1
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Stephanie s – that s her strength in our relationship.
1
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I mean, we have plenty of different strengths, but that s one where I feel like she has a better understanding of technology and things like that.
1
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Humbly like I m not a parent, and I can t even imagine, you know.
1
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The thing that s sticking out to me is that to me, it s two separate things, which is one is social media, which I feel like I would concede to the like, yeah, I think there s a lot of potential for, you know, danger.
1
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in those things and also just like, yes, so much, you know, so I can see, you know, limitations and but I would as a parent want to be very open about the fact that like, hey, social media is basically like me dropping you off at the mall, except the mall is the entire globe.
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You know, so I m going to keep an eye on that.
1
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My partner writes a journal, and we ve never had the conversation about, like, don t read it.
1
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I just respect that space, you know?
1
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Now, if I were to go past my own boundary and read that, I would then have to pay the consequences of knowing what s in there.
1
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And so I unfortunately am like, you are breaking the trust that you have with your child by bringing something up in a text message.
1
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And again, I m like, you know, I don t know what the issues are.
1
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They must not be that detrimental because I think she probably would have taken care of it already, you know, if we re talking about like a mental health break or something like that.
1
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But I just think that we live in this society now that like,
1
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does not trust kids.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like, we don t trust kids to develop their own selves, you know?
1
SPEAKER_01
And I think, you know, we re seeing that with these trans kid laws of, like, taking kids away from parents and, like, children should have autonomy.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like, the older they get, that s part of raising
1
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kids.
1
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And I just think that texting is not as out there, you know, like it s not that different than sitting on the phone for two hours with your friend and building that, you know.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I think that to like let your child know that you were spying on their personal text messages with their friends.
1
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I don t know if breaking that level of trust with your child outweighs the issues that you want to bring up with them.
1
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Or it might be a matter of
1
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you might have to just stop doing it right now.
1
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Stephanie and I talk all the time about just the idea of raising our children, trying to create a safe, fun, healthy environment, bringing who we hope are positive role models into their lives, safe, positive people.
1
SPEAKER_02
And kind of the best you can do is put a fence up around their life, and that s the big boundary.
1
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And then what happens within there is the freedom.
1
SPEAKER_02
And it also always goes back to communication.
1
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And I know this is so – I m embarrassed to even talk about this because my kids are almost seven, you know?
1
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I don t
2
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I don t have the experience of a 12-year-old.
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But what I do know is that no matter how old kids are, who you are as a parent, you re always going to have these moments where you get upset or you might come across as the disciplinarian.
2
SPEAKER_01
But what you want ultimately is for that openness in communication to remain between you and your child.
2
SPEAKER_01
So that if there is something that isn t quite right, or their flagging is unsafe, that they will tell you.
2
SPEAKER_01
But again, I don t know.
2
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I really don t know.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like you re saying, there s like an ever-changing balance in building trust with your child and communication and trusting that they will come to you is how you allow them to come to you.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, you can t go to them and say, like, but I know you have this thing going on because I read your text messages.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, imagine if that was you, you know?
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, imagine if that was you, how would you feel?
2
SPEAKER_00
You probably wouldn t feel safe to tell that person what s going on for you because they just broke your trust.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and so that s why I think that you can let it all be a wash and just stop right now, Rachel, and then work directly on the communication with your child.
2
SPEAKER_01
So, yeah, and since this is a confession booth, should we assign any penance for Rachel?
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I think the penance is every time you want to read a text, you don t.
2
SPEAKER_00
And here s what you do is you listen to your favorite song.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the song can change.
2
SPEAKER_00
Every time you want to do that, you don t do it and you do something else that is positive and that you enjoy.
2
SPEAKER_00
Or maybe you dance or something, you know, whatever.
2
SPEAKER_00
But just it s not a task or a chore.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like something that you re like, I like this and that s what I m going to do instead of reading my kids text messages.
2
SPEAKER_01
Alright, Rachel, in order to be absolved of your sin, you must not do it anymore and listen to your favorite song.
2
SPEAKER_01
River, it s been great talking to you.
2
SPEAKER_01
Thank you so much for joining me.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, my God, Tig.
2
SPEAKER_00
Thanks so much for having me.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s been so great.
2
SPEAKER_01
Do you have anything you d like to mention?
2
SPEAKER_00
I just recorded a special in Portland, and I m really excited for you all to see it.
2
SPEAKER_00
And when that comes out, it should be soon.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then, yeah, I have this new podcast that just came out with Gabe Dunn called The New Guys.
2
SPEAKER_00
So check that out wherever you listen to podcasts.
2
SPEAKER_01
Amazing.
2
SPEAKER_01
I hope to see you again sooner than later.
2
SPEAKER_00
Sooner than 2010.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s right.
2
SPEAKER_01
Alrighty.
2
SPEAKER_01
Bye.
2
SPEAKER_01
Bye.
2
SPEAKER_01
Also, remember that I m still on the road.
2
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I ll be in Jacksonville, Oregon, July 21st, Eugene, Oregon, July 22nd, Colorado Springs, September 25th, Breckenridge, Colorado, September 28th, Boulder, Colorado, September 29th, and Brooklyn, New York, November 4th at King s Theater.
2
SPEAKER_01
Come on out.
2
SPEAKER_01
Go to TigNotaro.com for all show links and ticket information.
2
SPEAKER_02
That s what you are
2
SPEAKER_01
Don t Ask Tig is hosted by me, Tig Notaro.
2
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It s produced by Thomas Ouellette and Shana Deloria.
2
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Our executive producer and editor is Beth Perlman.
2
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Engineering and sound mixing by Alex Simpson, Derek Ramirez, Josh Savageau, and Evan Clark.
2
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Digital production by James Napoli.
2
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Talent booking by Marianne Ways.
2
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Our theme music is Friend in Tig by Edie Burkell and Kyle Crusham.
2
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and listen to your heart by Edie Brickell.
2
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Special thanks to Hunter Seidman.
2
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APM Studios executives in charge are Chandra Kavati, Alex Schaffert, and Joanne Griffith.
2
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Concept developed by Tracy Mumford.
2
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Our executive consultant is Dean Capello and Gobsmack Studios.
2
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You can always ask for advice at DontAskTig.org.
2
SPEAKER_01
Just write in with your problem or send us a voice memo.
2
SPEAKER_01
Remember to follow us on social media at DontAskTig.
2
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Don t Ask Tig is a production of American Public Media.
2
SPEAKER_01
And as always, thanks Dana, and I ll tell Becky.
2
SPEAKER_03
I m Christina Cauterucci, and this season on Slow Burn.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s called Proposition 6.
2
SPEAKER_03
The Briggs Initiative.
2
SPEAKER_00
John Briggs is going to fire every gay and lesbian schoolteacher in California.
2
SPEAKER_03
With so much at stake, young people became activists.
2
SPEAKER_03
We can t let this happen in California.
2
SPEAKER_03
And activists became leaders.
2
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My name is Harvey Milker, and I m here to include you.
2
SPEAKER_03
Slow Burn, Season 9.
2
SPEAKER_03
Gays Against Briggs.
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Out now, wherever you listen.