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Hey my friend, thank you so much for being here.
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I wanted to ask you for a quick request before we get started with today s episode.
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Apple decided to shake things up a bit and you may no longer be following the School of Greatness.
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But luckily, there s an easy fix.
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So really quick, if you can, double check for me that you re not missing out on Greatness.
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Once you click the follow button on the top right corner, you re all set to get updated with the latest in Greatness here from the School of Greatness.
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greatness.
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And if you haven t already, make sure to leave a quick review while you re there.
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Your thoughts matter to me, I read all of the reviews, and I m so grateful that you re here.
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Thanks so much.
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Now, let s jump into this episode.
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When it comes to stress, I think a lot of stress is based on fear of the unknown and when you have headlines and economic uncertainty and what s the president going to do or not going to do and are they going to forgive student loans?
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And I have so much peace when it comes to personal finances because I ignore all of the noise and I only focus on what I can control.
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Welcome to the School of Greatness.
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My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur.
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And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness.
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Thanks for spending some time with me today.
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Now let the class begin.
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Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness.
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Very excited about our guest.
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We have the inspiring and hilarious George Camel in the house.
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Good to see you.
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So good, man.
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It s an honor to be here.
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I m a longtime fan, and I feel like I m inside of the matrix right now.
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You re here, man.
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You re here, man.
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We made it in the simulation.
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We made it, man.
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You are a personal finance expert and also a Dave Ramsey personality.
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And the show s number one in the world right now, so congratulations.
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Thank you.
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Thank you to everyone who s listening who made it happen.
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I have very little to do with it.
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It s amazing, man.
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You ve got this new book, which I m excited about.
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I ve been diving in.
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I m really excited to dive into it with the audience.
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Breaking Free from Broke, The Ultimate Guide to More Money and Less Stress.
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Now, here s a question for you to get started.
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This is what I read about you.
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You went from a negative net worth to millionaire status in under a decade.
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And I m curious, to start this off, what would be the top five habits of millionaires that you ve studied and also you ve applied in order to get that status?
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Ooh, that s a great question.
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So we did the largest study of millionaires ever done in North America.
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And I think there s a lot of overlap in the habits that we talk about with the Ramsey Baby Steps and what we found with millionaires.
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So it was encouraging because it just gave us some great confidence in the Ramsey plan to go like,
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this works.
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Every time you work it, it works, whether you make $40,000 or $400,000.
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And so one of those habits is living on less than you make.
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If you can t do that, this is not for you.
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If you make $40,000 and you spend $60,000 a year, that s a problem.
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The other one we found is delayed gratification.
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For that first one, why do you think people feel the need to spend more than they actually make?
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I think at the root of it, it s discontentment.
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We re not content with what we have.
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It s never enough.
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And thanks to debt, you re able to do that.
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Before debt existed, you couldn t spend more than you made.
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It was physically impossible.
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And all of a sudden, with the advent of debt, and I talk about the history of each piece of the puzzle here, like where did credit cards come from?
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Where did auto loans originate?
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What about student loans?
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How did this all happen?
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And most of it was good intentions that turned into huge profits for companies and corporations going like, we can screw a lot of people over and make a lot of money from interest if we convince them they need that newer car.
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And look at colleges, what do they do?
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They raise prices because you can get as much student loans as you want.
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Sally Mae s happy to give you the monopoly money.
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So colleges go, let s double the price.
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People will pay for it.
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And so because of that, people just have been spending more than they made for a long time now and putting it on the tab and going, I ll worry about that later.
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OK, what s the second habit?
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The second habit is practicing delayed gratification.
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That s a discipline that we have lost in an instant gratification culture.
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Right.
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We have instant access 24-7, all the time, in the palm of our hand, two-hour shipping.
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And that has caused our brains to just get fried, where we re like, I can t wait a week.
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I can t wait 10 years to build wealth.
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I need this now.
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I need it now.
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And we found millionaires are OK with the long term.
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They re playing the long game.
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And that s a very different mentality to have.
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They don t need it right now.
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They can say, I m going to put 10% or 5% or a certain amount of dollar amount every month away automatically, that I don t need to buy something with this.
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It s going to go to my future self.
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Yeah, or I m gonna pay cash for that car.
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That means putting a thousand bucks away for 24 months to save up for a $24,000 car.
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You know what s interesting?
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When I moved to, my dad always had used cars until he started to make some real money.
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Then he bought a new car, right?
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But it wasn t for many, many years.
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He like had that car until he rode it to the last, I guess, mile.
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And when I moved to LA,
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I had a million dollars in my account already.
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By the time I moved to LA, I don t know, 12 years ago, I had built this marketing company up before the podcast.
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I wasn t like mega millionaire, but I had a million dollars in the account of net worth, right?
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And I came here, and everyone had these flashy cars.
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And I was like, I just don t feel the need to try to live up to some standard in Los Angeles.
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And I got this car for $4,000 that I drove for the first five years I lived here.
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And the only reason I got a new car was really for like a tax break into like, you know right off on taxes, but this was a 1997 Year car Wow, I drove it around for five years happy.
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It didn t have Bluetooth It didn t have like it had a CD player and I m like, that s all you need That s all I needed and the radio didn t work But it was like I don t need some fancy car to feel like well, you weren t trying to flex.
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I wasn t trying
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You were focused on what was ahead of you instead of what was, who the people around you.
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Exactly.
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And it was, it was good enough.
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It got me around, you know, eventually I was like, okay, it s time to like upgrade, but not because I felt like I needed to, to impress, but because I wanted it and I wasn t flex.
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Yeah, exactly.
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That s the third habit.
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Right there is, we found millionaires, they drive four-year-old cars on average and they re all used.
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Really?
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You would think like millionaires, well, they can afford the new car, like they can do it, but they don t because they understand that cars are a depreciating asset.
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Every time you get in that car, it s just going down in value.
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And when you compound that with a car payment, you re paying interest on something going down in value.
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It s about the dumbest thing you can do.
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And I think it s one of the biggest wealth killers today.
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So that s definitely the third habit.
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Okay.
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Getting a used car or what would it be?
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Yeah, driving used cars.
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And that s part of delayed gratification.
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It all stems from living on less than you make in delayed gratification.
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Okay.
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And what s the fourth one?
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The most interesting one to me was that 97% of millionaires in the study believe they control their financial destiny.
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I was shocked they even put that question in the study, but it was such an empowering one because it s less about money and it s more about belief.
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and what the limiting beliefs we have about like, well, I didn t grow up with money.
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Well, my parents made money mistake.
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No, you don t understand.
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I got baggage, man.
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I made too many mistakes with zeros on the end.
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And too many people live their life with that Eeyore mentality.
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But 97% said, I believe I have a sense of control and autonomy and agency over what happens with my money.
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This was a question from our YouTube community.
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We did a poll, and this was the number one thing they wanted me to ask you.
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What s the one piece of advice you would give someone feeling completely overwhelmed by their financial situation and seeking a way out of that?
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I m gonna go with, in the conclusion of my book, I end with a very non-financial answer and I think it s the right answer for someone like this.
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And it s the, there s this gap between cynicism and hope.
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And I think people have lost hope in America today when it comes to finances.
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They ve resigned themselves to, whether I got myself in this mess or it s someone else s fault or whatever s happening to me or the inflation,
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I believe both are a choice.
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Hope is a choice.
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And for me, it was the hardest choice because I was the guy who was cynical.
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When I graduated college, I was 23, 40 grand in consumer debt, and I was angry at the world.
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I felt lied to because I was like, I followed this path.
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I got good grades.
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I got the degree.
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Where s my wonderful life?
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Instead, I m out here trying to get cash back and get enough sky miles to go home for Christmas, wondering how I m going to achieve my financial goals.
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And so that to me, I think that s the feeling a lot of people have, is this pit of the stomach, lump in the throat, hopelessness, and cynicism becomes the easier choice.
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It s easier to complain and just go like,
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Someone s got to fix my life and blame people systems or whatever.
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Yeah, so I think it starts with you know Well, yes, we got to do we got to get on a budget.
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We got to make sacrifices We got to get rid of this debt using the debt snowball get the emergency fund.
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Those are the real tactical steps But I think it starts with an emotional place where we go.
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All right, we cried it out now we wake up and we re like We got to go to work.
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And so the question is the gap between financial stress and
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financial piece is littered with traps and myths and distractions and noise and whole life insurance bros trying to sell you on some tax-free wealth strategy.
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And so what you have to do if that s you is go like, I m cutting out all the noise and inputs, I m going to follow a proven plan, do one thing at a time with focus intensity and go all in.
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And if, listen, if you get out of debt and follow the Ramsey plan and you hate it, you can always go back into debt.
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The companies will always be ready to hand you more monopoly money to play with.
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but I ve rarely seen that happen.
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When people get out of debt, the sacrifice they make to get out, 18 to 24 months, that s the average it takes to get out, they never go back.
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They go, I touched the hot stove, done with that life, I got goals.
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I m not trying to pay lenders for the rest of my life.
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I m trying to leave a legacy.
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I want to have generational impact.
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And so those are the people that inspire me, are the ones that, they start there, but it doesn t end there.
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And unfortunately, too many of us
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are willing to live in mediocrity for 30 years instead of sacrificing for three to have freedom for the next 27.
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But it s a very different lifestyle.
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So it takes transformation.
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And you know how difficult that is.
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You talk about that a lot on this show.
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Yeah.
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Delayed gratification is one of those key things.
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A lot of people are willing to sacrifice three years of
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delayed gratification and not having all the extra things that their friends are doing and not going out every weekend or not going on that trip that they wanted to go on for three years.
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You re not getting that house, you re not driving that car.
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Yeah, man.
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That s hard.
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If you can stay committed for a few years of sacrifice and find joy in the small and then big wins and find joy in doing things for free or just playing board games with friends or being creative with your time as opposed to
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feeling like you always need to spend to enjoy your time, I think you ll live a much better life.
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That s the heart of all this.
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It s discontentment and FOMO, all right?
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It s fear of missing out.
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What I talk about in the book is JOMO.
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It s the joy of missing out.
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It s the joy of going like, dude, I don t care about all that.
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I m running my own race.
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And the problem with running other people s race is that there is no finish line.
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Like when you re trying to keep up with someone else, well, they have a whole different life and they have different goals.
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And so why are you trying to keep up with these people that you don t really care about all that much?
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And so if you really have strong friends in your corner, they re going to be cheering you on and going like, dude, I totally get it.
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I ll come over tonight.
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I ll bring a pizza.
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We ll hang.
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We don t have to go out to the bar.
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You know what I mean?
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And so that takes a level of sacrifice, especially when you re young.
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Because when you re young, it s all about like, these are the best years of my life.
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I can t skip that vacation.
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But man, just two years out of the next 40, if you can sacrifice, it changes everything.
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It changes the trajectory of your life.
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So that s what I hope people are willing to do at the end of this.
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How does someone create that belief that they can have control over their money?
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I think it starts with dealing with their past.
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I mean, our friend Dr. John Deloney has a book called Own Your Past, Change Your Future.
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And you have to own the shame and the guilt and the baggage and the mistakes and the hurt and the financial trauma and your parents divorced and it was money stress and money fights and you took on all this debt and so who are you to ever build wealth and become debt free?
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You have to grapple with that and go like, that s not who I am.
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those are things that happened and yes they may have happened to me but that s not going to control my destiny and so it starts with that realizing like this is my past that s fine that s not where i m headed and so we always say the windshield is bigger than the rearview mirror for a reason so if you can start looking ahead going regardless and in spite of all of that i am going to
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Change my family tree.
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That s what we call it.
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Build generational wealth.
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Break the cycles and chains that have come before me.
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Those people are the ones that inspire me every day when they call the show.
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And they didn t come from money.
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They didn t come from trust funds.
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They came from broken homes and little incomes, and they overcame.
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Those are the heroes.
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Yeah, I think I saw someone earlier this week
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a woman come on the show say she got out like $300,000 in debt in like 18 months or something on your show.
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And maybe it was $300,000, maybe it was $170,000 I think it was that she got out of debt in 18 months.
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And the amount of peace that she had in her facial expression and her body language around being debt free from
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These, I guess, bad debts really looked empowering on what she was capable of doing now without that debt weighing her down.
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And I m curious, before we get into the next, the fifth habit, how does someone develop that belief that they can pay down their debts if it seems so daunting and so overwhelming?
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Realizing that you re not alone, I think, is a really important step.
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Too many people feel like, well, my situation is different, and I m unique, and I m special, and they don t get it.
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But then I meet people every day, and I get in a Financial Peace University class, and there s all these other people who made money mistakes.
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And I go, oh.
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I m not alone, I m not the only idiot out there.
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I m not the only average George out there.
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That to me is encouraging because it tells me that this path is something that other people have done before me, that will come after me, and that I can do this too.
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And so I think it s important to get other people around you, and that might mean cutting out some toxic friends who are not trying to be on that journey.
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Finding people who aren t trying to live on less than they make.
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That s an important piece.
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And the other piece is feeling progress.
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And that s why I think those baby steps are so important.
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When you start with just, hey, a thousand bucks, can you get a thousand bucks?
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Most of us would say, yeah, I can sell some stuff.
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I can get the second job.
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I can, you know, not eat out this month.
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Now it s like, all right, let s attack that consumer debt.
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Debt snowball, smallest to largest.
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Let s just attack the small debt.
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Can we just do that?
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One thing at a time.
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We re not saving, we re not investing.
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We re just gonna do one thing at a time.
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And that to me is what builds that hope and builds that progress and momentum and keeps you motivated on the journey.
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You have to have a little win early on or else you give up.
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Yeah, that s good.
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And what about the fifth habit?
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Ooh, the fifth habit is so boring and unsexy that it will upset you.
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it is getting on the budget, it s making a plan.
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And what I found was that budgets are not for broke people, budgets are not for wealthy people, budgets are for intentional people.
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That was a game changer for me, because I always thought, like, we have to be a super nerd and love Excel.
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Or you have to be, like, really broke, because you think budget, you think this person s real frugal and stingy and cheap, and they can t spend anything.
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You say, I m on a budget, that means I can t go out with the friends.
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But to me, it s just putting a plan on paper and looking at reality, going, my income is 5,000,
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I need to spend, I m going to make a plan for every single dollar because otherwise what happens?
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Dollars float away.
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You go, where do, where, oh my gosh, we spent 600 bucks eating out this month and door dashing a burrito.
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You know, all of that unintentional spending and impulse leads to you not hitting financial goals.
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Yeah.
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So it s conscious spending habits.
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It s being aware of where you re spending your money.
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There was a quote in here.
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Let me see this quote real quick.
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I saw this based on budgeting.
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Yeah, I had a whole chapter called Budgeting is Freedom.
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That s the first one in the Breaking Free section to help people.
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And the quote on that is from John Maxwell.
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He said, a budget is telling your money where to go instead of wondering where it went.
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And I think a lot of people aren t conscious about their spending habits.
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And they re not intentional about where they want their money to go.
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They buy things based on impulse and based on pleasure and based on desire.
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And then they realize like, oh, I don t have as much money as I thought I had because they re not intentional about it.
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How often should we be looking at all of our accounts?
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Should this be a daily thing?
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Should it be monthly?
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Is it too much to look at it where it s an obsession and you re over-obsessing versus like a natural flow?
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What do you think?
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Yeah, that s a great question.
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Well, we tell people to make a budget every month.
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And so actually creating the budget on paper before the next month begins is key.
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So that will happen one time.
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And if you ve got a spouse, you need to do that together with a quick budget meeting.
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This is not a four hour, you know, Lord of the Rings saga here.
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This is going, hey, what s going on this month?
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Hey, we got that birthday party.
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We got to get that gift for this thing.
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Remember, we have that vacation coming up.
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Let s start saving.
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And so that s all it is.
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But as far as tracking your transactions, because that s a really important part of the budget, people forget to do.
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Looks great on paper.
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And then we just spend the rest of the month and hope.
1
SPEAKER_01
Fingers crossed we have money in the account at the end of the month and don t overdraft.
1
SPEAKER_01
That s most people.
1
SPEAKER_01
But tracking your transactions is a key, and you want to do that once every day or other day.
1
SPEAKER_01
And again, if you do it once every other day, it s like cleaning your room.
1
SPEAKER_01
You don t ever have to clean your room if you just tidy up real quick.
1
SPEAKER_01
And so with EveryDollar, our budgeting app, this is as easy as dragging the transaction.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like Amazon, drag it up to shopping.
1
SPEAKER_01
We re done.
1
SPEAKER_01
And so when you do that, you can actually see, do we have any money left?
1
SPEAKER_01
for xyz or hey we re over budget we got to figure something out we got to sacrifice we got to cut this category here what most people do is just overspend in four different categories and they go we re a thousand bucks over and we put it on the credit card we ll figure it out next month and that s why it s important to not only do a budget but to use your own money and i only have a i have one debit card and i use cash occasionally that s it my life is very simple in that way and i have my business my ramsey business debit card as well
1
SPEAKER_00
What do you say to people that say, you know, well, I love having a credit card because it allows
2
SPEAKER_01
me to get points for flights or whatever it might be for other perks.
2
SPEAKER_01
And if I m tracking it just like I would a debit card, then I m missing out on all these other perks.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, I found the people who actually could stand to benefit and actually have any meaningful rewards.
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SPEAKER_00
make enough money and spend enough that they don t need the rewards.
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SPEAKER_00
So it s kind of hilarious at that point to be like, if you make $150,000, the $1,000 in rewards is not changing your life whatsoever.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the mental calories you re spending to play the game and maximize is not worth your time.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so I break down, in chapter three on credit cards, I break down eight different character archetypes that I found with credit cards.
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And so there was the rewards redeemer.
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There s the world traveler.
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The person s like, I got to have my airline miles.
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SPEAKER_00
And I break down, you got to spend $50,000 in order to get your $250 flight.
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SPEAKER_00
But you don t even know that, because what do they give you?
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SPEAKER_00
Points and miles.
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SPEAKER_00
What is 100,000 miles?
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SPEAKER_00
We don t know anymore.
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SPEAKER_00
The credit card companies want to confuse us.
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SPEAKER_00
And I found this out from an ex-Capital One employee.
2
Thank you for watching.
2
SPEAKER_00
She told me verbatim that these credit card companies run 10,000 experiments a year on consumers and A-B test them to go, oh, if we switch it from cash back to points, it triggers something different in their brain.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like Chuck E. Cheese.
2
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re like, I don t know what 100,000 points is, but it feels like a lot.
2
SPEAKER_00
Let s sign up for the bonus.
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SPEAKER_01
That s like two candy bars.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
2
SPEAKER_00
So most people, they re stepping over a dollar to hopefully pick up a quarter.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the average credit card interest rate now is 22% APR.
2
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
2
SPEAKER_00
But we re doing all this in hopes of getting 2% cash back.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re like,
2
SPEAKER_00
Is it worth spending a hundred bucks to get two bucks?
2
SPEAKER_00
What they tell me is, well, I m not spending any differently than if it was my own money.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m like, you want to bet?
2
SPEAKER_00
Here s a thousand dollars cash of your own money.
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SPEAKER_00
Go hand over a thousand dollars and see the emotional pain it causes.
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SPEAKER_00
And so adding friction back into our life will actually help us spend less.
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SPEAKER_00
And that s what happens when you use cash, especially, but even a debit card, your brain knows.
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SPEAKER_00
This is coming right out of my account.
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SPEAKER_00
That s Louis  money right now.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so in the book, the thesis of that chapter is when it hurts, when it hurts less, it costs more.
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When we remove the friction, you re going to spend more.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I quote MIT studies using fMRI technology on the brain.
2
SPEAKER_00
And they re seeing when people swipe that credit card, it releases the brakes on spending and hits the accelerator.
2
SPEAKER_00
Really?
2
SPEAKER_00
And so it s like both and.
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SPEAKER_00
And every study shows you spend more when you swipe that card.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so I try to hit every single objection here, because we ve heard so much on the Ramsey show.
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SPEAKER_00
What if I paid the perfect spenders, the first one in there?
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SPEAKER_00
I never pay a dime in interest.
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SPEAKER_00
What s wrong with using my credit card?
2
SPEAKER_00
All of those excuses.
2
SPEAKER_01
Pay it off every month, all that different things.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, but even then, think about it.
2
SPEAKER_00
You could have zero bucks in the bank at the end of that month.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re not building wealth just because you have a zero credit card balance.
2
SPEAKER_00
I want people to build wealth.
2
SPEAKER_01
Sure.
2
SPEAKER_01
Not just play the game perfectly of Capital One.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right.
2
SPEAKER_01
And if it s coming out of a debit card, you d be much more conscious of like, do I really need this thing?
2
SPEAKER_01
Or is this...
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Whatever I m gonna buy right now.
2
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Is it really gonna be the thing that I want right now?
2
SPEAKER_00
I m gonna make me happy rotating cash back So when you tell me I spend just like I would not know you re going out to eat because you get 5% This month on restaurants rights like they know what they re doing.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s always on travel and restaurants.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s never hey pay your utility bills And we ll give you 5% cash
2
SPEAKER_00
It s never the boring stuff.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s the frivolous spending.
2
SPEAKER_00
Sure.
2
SPEAKER_00
So there s so much in there that was fascinating, especially the Fed Reserve study that shows that $15 billion moves from the poor, uneducated, to the wealthy or educated through credit card rewards.
2
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so when people tell me, well, George, I m not, like, who s benefiting from this?
2
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Like, I m not hurting anyone by doing this.
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Like, technically, I m not on a moral high horse.
2
SPEAKER_00
But the study shows that the poorest, most uneducated people
2
SPEAKER_00
is who s paying for your flight, who s paying for your cash back.
2
SPEAKER_00
And to me, that s not a system I want to be a part of, if I can opt out of it by using my own money.
2
SPEAKER_01
What do you think is the number one thing about money that stresses them out the most?
2
SPEAKER_01
The idea of money.
2
SPEAKER_01
Is it the debt of money?
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Is it having lots of money?
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Is it relationships and money?
2
SPEAKER_01
Is it people s opinions about your money?
2
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What is the number one thing about money that stresses people out the most?
2
SPEAKER_00
When it comes to stress, I think a lot of stress is based on fear of the unknown and when you have headlines and economic uncertainty and what s the president going to do or not going to do and are they going to forgive student loans?
2
SPEAKER_00
And I have so much peace when it comes to personal finances because I ignore all of the noise and I only focus on what I can control.
2
SPEAKER_00
When you start pointing fingers at, well, what are we going to do about inflation, the cost of eggs?
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SPEAKER_00
And dude, Congress has got to get their act together.
2
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And the Fed, they keep messing with these interest rates.
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And the guy in the White House is to blame.
2
SPEAKER_00
And all of that is, we can always complain about that for a moment.
2
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But at the end of the day, we got bills to pay.
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We got goals to achieve.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so I go through all of those excuses in chapter one to tell people, like, hey, we can point fingers and enjoy it, and that s cathartic.
2
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But at the end of the day, what you can control is the guy in the mirror and how he spends his money and how she saves her money.
2
SPEAKER_00
And to me, that at first is kind of like, OK, I can control me, whoop, whoop.
2
SPEAKER_00
But it s so empowering when you realize, like, oh, if I m the problem, I m the solution.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is amazing.
2
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And so I think that stress comes from the fear of the unknown, and what could happen, and what if the stock market tanks.
2
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But when you have no debt, no lenders to pay, you have a fully funded emergency fund, and you ve got wealth being built for the future, and you re thinking long term, you re not worried about what happens tomorrow.
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SPEAKER_01
Because you ve got your plan and you re sticking to it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
2
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I m so confident in my plan.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s not because I m some like multi-millionaire.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s because I m content with where I m at.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t need another million dollars tomorrow.
2
SPEAKER_01
You don t need a new watch.
2
SPEAKER_01
You don t need a new car.
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SPEAKER_01
You don t need to go on five extra trips that you see other people doing.
2
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
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You don t need to overspend because you have financial peace.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the simpler you can create, the simpler life you can create, the better off you re going to be.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because the more stuff you own, the more it kind of owns you.
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SPEAKER_00
The more complicated life gets.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so, you know, I was just hanging out with the minimalists and we were talking about all of this stuff because we re seeing anxiety stems from the stuff around us.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the less clutter in our life, emotionally, physically, financially, the better off we are.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I ve never seen someone debt free who s like, my life is worse now that I have no debt.
2
SPEAKER_00
Not once.
2
SPEAKER_00
They always are levitating because they just have a piece about them because their body s not keeping the score anymore of the debt that they owe.
2
SPEAKER_01
Do you think people have more shame around being in debt or more shame today about having an abundance of money?
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, like, is there is there a shame and like, well, I don t want to because other people are hurting.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
I ve got I have wealth.
2
SPEAKER_01
I figured out how to, like, take responsibility for my life and, you know, pay off the debts and start building wealth.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I ve actually done it now.
2
SPEAKER_01
I spent 10, 20, 30 years of actually creating something of value.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I ve been smart with my money.
2
SPEAKER_01
Now I have it.
2
SPEAKER_01
which used to be like celebrated, like, you know, it s like, but now it s kind of like wealth.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
So do you feel like people have more shame around being in debt and broke?
2
SPEAKER_01
and a victim that they don t have control of their life financially or more shame about being rich.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, in a culture where debt has become celebrated, I think we ve lost a level of shame that we ought to have.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like back in our grandparents  days, it was not okay to owe people money.
2
SPEAKER_00
It was a goal to not owe people money.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now there s TikToks about people going, I m $15 million in debt and I m proud of it and you should be $15 million in debt too.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the people who have wealth and have earned it with integrity are going like, I don t want to, I don t want to hurt anyone s feelings because everyone s upset.
2
SPEAKER_00
And at the heart of it is, I don t think it s fair that Lewis has more than me.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s this comparison culture and mentality of if he has something I don t, that s not fair.
2
SPEAKER_00
And, you know, it goes into basically social and socialist anarchy at that point.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so the best thing we can do, whether, you know, we have people with all the baby steps and they re whispering to us like, hey,
2
SPEAKER_00
Right, right.
2
SPEAKER_00
They re not, they re not like owning it.
2
SPEAKER_00
They re not like shouting from the rooftops, but we live in such a weird world at Ramsey where we re celebrating people paying off debt.
2
SPEAKER_00
We re asking about income all day long.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so it s, there s, there s less shame in our Ramsey bubble, but it s weird that we whisper that.
2
SPEAKER_01
Why do you think there s so much shame for people that have, you know, a hundred grand or a million dollars of net worth where they can t speak about it to their friends and family openly without feeling judged, attacked, having handouts everywhere where people now, now you got to pay off my debts?
2
SPEAKER_01
Is that what it is, that people are just shaming people that have taken responsibility for their money?
2
SPEAKER_00
The heart behind it is there s wisdom to it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Me telling a random person or my friend, like, hey, bro, I got a million bucks.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s out of context, and it s going to make them feel small and less than.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so I think the heart of it is good.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s good intentions.
2
SPEAKER_00
And there s a time and a place to talk about it.
2
SPEAKER_00
The Ramsey Show is one of them.
2
SPEAKER_00
We love celebrating people.
2
SPEAKER_00
But going down the street being like, I m a millionaire.
2
SPEAKER_00
What are you guys doing?
2
SPEAKER_00
It s hard.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so even with this book, like I don t brag that I m a millionaire.
2
SPEAKER_00
I tell people like, I m the average George.
2
SPEAKER_00
If I can go from broke to millionaire, you can too.
2
SPEAKER_00
So it s never a flex on my part.
2
SPEAKER_00
All it is, is I want to empower other people that I didn t come from money.
2
SPEAKER_00
I am a W-2 employee.
2
SPEAKER_00
I didn t start my own business.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m not a self-made entrepreneur.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m a guy who just followed a simple plan and believes that anyone can become
3
SPEAKER_01
a millionaire in America today.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so I talk about money so that we don t have to talk about money.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s like, let s take the shame out of it and let s just make it fun and conversational.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s not about a flex, it s about encouraging and empowering each other.
3
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
3
SPEAKER_00
So you re telling me you can work somewhere for a decade.
3
SPEAKER_00
not start your own business, not be hustling on the side constantly and spending all your time trying to earn more constantly, and you could get to millionaire status.
3
SPEAKER_00
Is that what you re telling me?
3
SPEAKER_00
It s possible?
3
SPEAKER_01
It s possible.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think it looks different for a lot of people.
3
SPEAKER_01
A part of my wealth building was my spouse, Whitney.
3
SPEAKER_01
I met her at Ramsey.
3
SPEAKER_01
And we are net worth millionaires together as a household.
3
SPEAKER_01
And people are always like, well, that doesn t count.
3
SPEAKER_01
because really you have to take half of that because what if you divorce?
3
SPEAKER_01
I m like, that s such a weird, that s like saying like, well, what if the stock market goes to zero?
3
SPEAKER_01
You re not a millionaire anymore.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m like, you re right.
3
SPEAKER_01
I wouldn t be.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I think a spouse is one of the most powerful wealth building tools.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s underrated.
3
SPEAKER_01
Tell me why.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because when my wife and I met, we were so aligned, obviously.
3
SPEAKER_01
We both worked at Ramsey.
3
SPEAKER_01
We drank the Kool-Aid, and it was good.
3
SPEAKER_01
And we were like, we started off our marriage debt-free.
3
SPEAKER_01
I had paid off my consumer debt at that point.
3
SPEAKER_01
She was much smarter than me, much better looking, much better at money management.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so it s a life hack to start your marriage off debt-free, already investing for the future, having an emergency fund, getting into a home,
3
SPEAKER_01
And we ended up paying off that home in 26 months because we were on the same page, got a modest home that was within our means, and we both had the goal of like, what would it be like to not have a mortgage payment in our early 30s?
3
SPEAKER_01
What could we do?
3
SPEAKER_01
How could we give?
3
SPEAKER_01
What options would we have?
3
SPEAKER_01
And that led us down the path of paying off the house.
3
SPEAKER_01
That house appreciates in value over time.
3
SPEAKER_01
We ve been investing 15% that whole time into our Roth 401ks at Ramsey.
3
SPEAKER_01
Boring investing stuff.
3
SPEAKER_01
And all of a sudden, you look up at your net worth calculation and the equity in our home and in retirement accounts.
3
SPEAKER_01
We re millionaires.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so it s, I don t say that to minimize how, you know, the sacrifice that we made and the side hustles that I did and us getting promoted over the years, over a decade.
3
SPEAKER_01
It may take people 15 years or 20 years.
3
SPEAKER_01
It may take dual income.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, we had dual income, no kids at the time.
3
SPEAKER_01
We got two French bulldogs, which was a real net worth suck.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, that s a couple hundred a month.
3
SPEAKER_01
That would drain the bank account.
3
SPEAKER_01
We just had a little girl four months ago, and I promise you the dogs are still more expensive than a baby.
3
SPEAKER_01
Congrats man.
3
SPEAKER_01
Thank you.
3
SPEAKER_01
So all of that together, I say that to go, it may not look the same for everyone.
3
SPEAKER_01
So this is not a, hey, if I can t do it in 10 years, I m a failure.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I think people imagine, well, it s going to take me 35 years to build wealth.
3
SPEAKER_01
It really doesn t take that long when you get intentional and focus and follow the Ramsey Baby Steps.
3
SPEAKER_01
Average person following the Baby Steps pays off their home in seven years.
3
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s not a long time.
3
SPEAKER_01
If you re 22, it feels like an eternity.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_01
But you re going to be seven years older.
3
SPEAKER_01
So where do you want to be?
3
SPEAKER_01
Time is going to pass.
3
SPEAKER_01
You want to be debt-free or not?
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
What do you think is the three biggest questions everyone should ask
3
SPEAKER_00
before they get married.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, this is a good one.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was just on Chris Harrison from The Bachelor.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I was talking to him and his wife about this and what questions to ask when you re dating someone, when to bring all this up.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I think one of the best questions to ask is not about, you don t want to ask about, hey, how much debt do you have on the first date?
3
SPEAKER_01
What s your income?
3
SPEAKER_01
What s your life plan?
3
SPEAKER_01
What you want to ask is, what are your views around debt?
3
SPEAKER_01
Just what are your values when it comes to building wealth?
3
SPEAKER_01
That to me says a whole lot more about a person than their current status.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so I m never going to be like, you better find someone who s debt free, who s a million, you know, it s not about that.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s about where are they trying to go?
3
SPEAKER_01
Because if they re trying to hang on to debt, and they re going to continue to spend more than they make, probably not someone I want to be with long term.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, if they ve got seven credit cards and
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, they re in a ton of debt that may not be the, and they think that s good.
3
SPEAKER_00
That may not be a sign of alignment of financial freedom in the future.
3
SPEAKER_01
Exactly, and that s only gonna cause resentment.
3
SPEAKER_01
We see that one of the number one causes of divorce in America today is money fights and money problems.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so if you can avoid that on the front end, which I think you can, by asking some good questions like what are your values around money?
3
SPEAKER_01
What was it like growing up in your house?
3
SPEAKER_01
Was money talked about?
3
SPEAKER_01
I think that s a really interesting question because it says a lot about how you think about money and your paradigm around money.
3
SPEAKER_01
Is money something that you see as an obstacle versus a tool?
3
SPEAKER_01
Are you wanting to be generous?
3
SPEAKER_01
Are you a saver or a spender?
3
SPEAKER_01
These are fun, lighthearted questions that aren t digging and like prodding on the first date.
3
SPEAKER_01
Now, as you get into the relationship, you can start to ask about, you know, debt levels and like, do you have a plan to pay this off?
3
SPEAKER_01
But doing it in an encouraging way is the key.
3
SPEAKER_01
You don t want to come at them
3
SPEAKER_00
Here s another question, let s say that you re in your late 20s, early 30s and you ve been dating for a couple of years and you ve really built this incredible connection and you ve learned to like each other and love each other and you re excited to get married.
3
SPEAKER_00
But then you start to have these challenging conversations.
3
SPEAKER_00
You start to ask some of these things.
3
SPEAKER_00
Maybe you were too timid, you didn t want to ask about it because life was just good, and now it s into asking about debt, money values, vision around money, all these different things.
3
SPEAKER_00
And you realize you re completely opposite spectrums around values and money.
3
SPEAKER_00
Do you think love is enough to keep a marriage going without a lot of conflict?
3
SPEAKER_00
Or if you re complete opposites around views on money, do you think that is going to cause more pain and friction than the love will keep you together?
3
SPEAKER_01
Mmm, that s a great question.
3
SPEAKER_00
Based on all the case studies you ve seen come through in the Ramsey show and your experience and people you know, what do you think?
3
SPEAKER_01
I think there s a good distinction to make between you don t need to have two savers in a relationship to make it work.
3
SPEAKER_01
You can have the free spirit spender and you can have the nerd saver who loves to do the budget.
3
SPEAKER_01
You can have a long, healthy marriage that way.
3
SPEAKER_01
But if you have someone who s saying, I want to hang on to debt, I want to continue to spend more than we make, I don t care, YOLO, forget about the future.
3
SPEAKER_01
And this other person who has, you know, a real fear about like, we re going to be screwed.
3
SPEAKER_01
We re never going to be able to retire.
3
SPEAKER_01
Eventually that s going to cause enough strife in the relationship that either you shut down and brush it all under the rug and there s a lot of resentment or it ends up in divorce.
3
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that s what we ve seen is there s financial infidelity.
3
SPEAKER_01
And one of the... What is financial infidelity?
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, it s not cheating on your spouse, but it s not communicating honestly about finances.
3
SPEAKER_01
This is when you have that other account over here and we bought this thing and I didn t tell you about it because of fear or because I knew what they would say if I bought this thing.
3
SPEAKER_01
And what that does is you lose trust and relationships are entirely built on trust.
3
SPEAKER_01
And money is a really emotional
3
SPEAKER_01
piece of that trust puzzle, and it s hard to rebuild trust.
3
SPEAKER_01
Really easy to break.
3
SPEAKER_01
All it takes is one purchase without the spouse knowing.
3
SPEAKER_01
And we ve seen this time and time again on the Ramsey Show, where one spouse spends over here, the other spouse didn t know about it, and they re calling in going, what do I do?
3
SPEAKER_01
How do I repair this relationship?
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s less of a financial question at that point.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, we know what to do financially, but it s how do we move forward in the relationship that s really tough.
3
SPEAKER_00
How do you repair a relationship if there s been financial infidelity?
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, counseling is always a start and more open, honest communication together over a long period of time.
3
SPEAKER_01
Trust is one of those things where I have to see a pattern of trustworthiness.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that takes a long time.
3
SPEAKER_01
Sometimes it can take years to fully repair that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because it s always in the back of that person s mind, it could happen anytime now.
3
SPEAKER_01
Just like with a cheater, you re like, they could cheat again.
3
SPEAKER_01
We don t truly know.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so what that looks like is making that monthly budget together, combining bank accounts for transparency.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that s one of the biggest things I ve seen today is people are so against combining bank accounts.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m like, you share a bed, you share DNA, you have a baby together, but you can t share a bank account?
3
SPEAKER_01
This is crazy.
3
SPEAKER_01
So they live like roommates, then mowing each other back and forth, splitting expenses and hairs, and then wondering why they don t have a great marriage.
3
SPEAKER_01
Interesting.
3
SPEAKER_01
So the best couples I know have full transparency and communication around money, they have combined bank accounts, and they still have their independence.
3
SPEAKER_01
Lewis has his line item in the budget for fun money.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s not about control on one person s part of going, you can t spend that way.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s, we agreed, Louis has $500 to spend on shoes this month.
3
SPEAKER_01
Right, right.
3
SPEAKER_01
And she has $600, because that s how it should be.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know?
3
SPEAKER_00
Add some self-care in there.
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, maybe they have like a separate bank account for personal, and then like a shared combined account, or something like that.
3
SPEAKER_00
Are you saying all accounts should be shared?
3
SPEAKER_00
My wife and I have one shared checking account.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it works the same.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because when you think about a line item in the budget,
3
SPEAKER_01
That s really telling the money where it s going to go.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so sending it to the personal accounts, that s fine.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think it can create a layer of financial infidelity because we don t know, wait, Lewis had all this money.
3
SPEAKER_01
I ve seen this happen where they go, I didn t know you had all that money saved up in there.
3
SPEAKER_01
And here s what we ve seen.
3
SPEAKER_01
They go, well, that s her debt to pay off.
3
SPEAKER_01
She s going to do that out of her own money in her own account.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so what happens is you lose the we when it comes to relationships and money, and it becomes, yeah, but that s her mistake.
3
SPEAKER_01
She s going to pay that off.
3
SPEAKER_01
And nothing builds a marriage like going, that s her thing to deal with.
3
SPEAKER_01
But you got to be in this together.
3
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so that s a hard thing too.
3
SPEAKER_01
One person brings in a whole bunch of debt to the relationship and you get married.
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, Lewis has been saving
4
SPEAKER_00
$100,000 in a savings account, she comes in with $100,000 and we go, that savings account for that house just turned into the payoff her debt fund.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh man.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that hurts.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s got to create some resentment for people, right?
4
100%.
4
SPEAKER_01
So how do you, I mean, that s why you got to choose wisely, I guess.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s part of it.
4
SPEAKER_01
Or know like, okay, I m choosing this knowing my money is going to support this debt or this person s past decision-making, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
That got her in this position.
4
SPEAKER_00
You re taking that whole person on in marriage.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s not just the good parts you like.
4
SPEAKER_01
You got to accept them.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s one of the reasons, you know, you gotta, most people hope for like potential for that they re gonna change, but you gotta accept who they are when you re getting into a relationship.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s a whole nother conversation around this.
4
SPEAKER_00
Oh yeah, but that s a hard part that I totally understand.
4
SPEAKER_00
Because one person worked really hard to save up this money, and they were diligent and disciplined, and one person made this financial mistake, probably before marriage happened, and they re still grappling with the reality of student loans and the car loan, and it hurts, but it s one pile.
4
SPEAKER_01
Is there an amount of debt where love is not enough?
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, that one person has a million dollars in debt.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
Someone has got so much school debt.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
They re 400 grand from the doctor school or whatever it is.
4
SPEAKER_01
Then they made a poor purchase or try to invest in something and went bankrupt or whatever it is.
4
SPEAKER_01
But man, you ve got a connection, you ve got an intimacy, you ve got a shared two years of experiences and a love that feels really strong.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then you learn about four or 500 grand in debt.
4
SPEAKER_01
Is love strong enough to make a relationship last long-term with that much debt from one person?
4
SPEAKER_00
I do think love can overcome, but I don t think it s like a squishy Hallmark feeling.
4
SPEAKER_00
I think it s a, there is such a strong partnership of like, we re gonna get through this together.
4
SPEAKER_00
And my friend, Jade Warshaw, Ramsey Personality, she s living proof of that.
4
SPEAKER_00
Her husband and her, they had almost half a million dollars in consumer debt.
4
SPEAKER_00
Really?
4
SPEAKER_00
And they paid it all off over seven years.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, was this before they got married or together they created this?
4
SPEAKER_00
So once they got married, they looked at all their debts and combined, they had half a million.
4
SPEAKER_00
They were both messy.
4
SPEAKER_00
They were both a mess, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
4
SPEAKER_00
But to me, it wasn t just this like, love will overcome.
4
SPEAKER_00
It was an alignment in our goals and where we re headed and our new values and our new identities of who we wanted to become.
4
SPEAKER_01
See, they both were at fault of their debts.
4
SPEAKER_00
It wasn t like one person was- One person comes in with half a million and the other person is like, I m doing great.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s a much harder thing.
4
SPEAKER_00
You have to overcome it, but you also have to realize marriage is long-term.
4
SPEAKER_00
So you got to think about 30 years from now, are we really going to look back and go, well, that 500,000 really set us back.
4
SPEAKER_01
Maybe, maybe that s seven years of your life that you ve got to make different decisions, that you can t go take a trip, you can t live a life that you dreamed of, that dream has to shift.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
So there s a lot of like... There s a lot to overcome.
4
SPEAKER_01
Your life looks different.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, but you make a decision for one person that hopefully they ll get out of this with you, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
It s like, hopefully they ll make better decisions, but what if they don t?
4
SPEAKER_01
What if they haven t broken the habit?
4
SPEAKER_01
What if they haven t...
4
SPEAKER_01
healed their pain that s gotten them into this place, all these different things.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s true.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, debt, it can hurt a relationship for sure.
4
SPEAKER_00
I ve also seen it where it strengthens it because it causes them to communicate on a different level.
4
SPEAKER_00
We ve seen the debt-free journey actually heal marriages.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s inspiring.
4
SPEAKER_00
Really?
4
SPEAKER_00
where they were on the brink of divorce, they go through Financial Peace University, they finally get aligned, they re running the same direction, maybe for the first time, and all of a sudden at the end they re like, well what did all that debt-free stuff do?
4
SPEAKER_00
It helped us communicate better, get aligned, have the same vision, and what that does is create a better marriage.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so I think there s a beautiful part that is underpinning all this financial stuff we do that creates transformation in other areas of life.
4
SPEAKER_00
We ve seen people lose a hundred pounds while on the debt free journey because transformation begets transformation.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s not just one area.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s like you have to take inventory and stock of every area of life and start being disciplined and have better habits and all these different things.
4
SPEAKER_00
It goes back to 97% believe they control their financial destiny.
4
SPEAKER_00
Once you realize you have a sense of agency and autonomy over your life, you re like, what else can t I do?
4
SPEAKER_00
Tell me I can t go run that marathon or lose 100 pounds or switch career paths.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s like an invincible feeling that is, that s really the empowerment and inspiration behind the Ramsey Show.
4
SPEAKER_01
You build that momentum.
4
SPEAKER_01
What do you think is the thing that keeps people in a victim mentality the most around money?
4
SPEAKER_00
So one of my core beliefs, and I talk about it in the book, is that it s not all your fault, but it s your responsibility.
4
SPEAKER_00
And one of the biggest keys to staying in this victim mentality, and I understand people had some real things happen to them, and so I don t want to minimize the fact that there s people who have been hurt, and there s been trauma, and life has really happened to them.
4
SPEAKER_00
But the key is, they realize, it s my responsibility to move forward.
4
SPEAKER_00
I can t wait for someone else to come fix all of this.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s what I think keeps people in the victim mentality, whether it s student loan forgiveness.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s just one area that s easy to point at and go like, are you going to wait and hope that the next person running for office actually comes through with the promise to get your vote?
4
SPEAKER_00
Or you can do the hard work and work that side job and not eat out in order to create margin to pay off the debt yourself.
4
SPEAKER_00
And that, to me, is the single variant of a victor or a victim, is am I in control?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yes, it s not all my fault, but it s my responsibility.
4
SPEAKER_00
Not by my hand, but it s in my lap.
4
SPEAKER_00
What am I gonna do?
4
SPEAKER_00
And those are the heroes we celebrate, the ones that, in spite of all that, go, I m gonna freaking take down Goliath.
4
SPEAKER_00
I don t care, nothing s going to stop me.
4
SPEAKER_01
Those are the ones we want to root for.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
If someone s making around $70,000 to $120,000 a year in that range, and they feel overwhelmed with money, what is the root of that overwhelm if they re in that $70,000 to $120,000 range?
4
SPEAKER_01
Is it they re overspending?
4
SPEAKER_01
Is it they don t feel like they re keeping up with their friends?
4
SPEAKER_01
What do you think is that cause of stress and anxiety around money in that range?
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, the average household income in America is about $71,000.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so if you re making $71,000, you re doing pretty well.
4
SPEAKER_00
And if you re making $70,000 to $120,000, in most areas, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like LA $120,000 is very different from an Idaho $120,000.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so a lot of it is cost of living.
4
SPEAKER_00
Sure.
4
SPEAKER_00
But a lot of it stems from lifestyle creep.
4
SPEAKER_00
Very rarely do we start making $120,000.
4
SPEAKER_00
We get there over time, and you would think, well, if I just made more money, I could solve all this.
4
SPEAKER_00
I d get rid of the debt.
4
SPEAKER_00
I d be doing so well.
4
SPEAKER_00
But what happens is you just go, I can afford a little more payment, and I could afford a little nicer car.
4
SPEAKER_00
We can get in that house.
4
SPEAKER_00
We can afford the mortgage.
4
SPEAKER_00
We can stomach it.
4
SPEAKER_00
So over time, you just start collecting payments like it s a game, and you realize we got no margin at the end of the month to save for retirement and go on that vacation.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so I think that s the biggest key.
4
SPEAKER_00
It goes back to not living on less than you make.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so it s rarely an income problem, because we know a third of people making six figures are living paycheck to paycheck.
4
SPEAKER_00
And that makes people irate.
4
SPEAKER_01
A third of people making six figures a year are living paycheck to paycheck.
4
SPEAKER_00
One paycheck doesn t show up.
4
SPEAKER_00
They re screwed.
4
SPEAKER_00
Really?
4
SPEAKER_00
That was a shocking stat.
4
SPEAKER_00
That wasn t even Ramsey research.
4
SPEAKER_00
That was outside research.
4
SPEAKER_00
And we were like, that makes sense, because people calling the Ramsey show just this last week
4
SPEAKER_00
We re taking calls from people making $190,000, $250,000, and they can t breathe.
4
SPEAKER_00
Why?
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, you start adding up all the toys they have and the luxury cars.
4
SPEAKER_00
They got a $60,000 car loan here.
4
SPEAKER_00
They re underwater on it.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s only worth $40,000 now.
4
SPEAKER_00
And they bought a house that was a little too much house.
4
SPEAKER_00
They bit off more than they can chew.
4
SPEAKER_00
And the mortgage payment is 60% of their take-home pay.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so you add up all that, and they got a credit card balance now, and they got the personal loan, and they still have the student loan, and all of this just compounds.
4
SPEAKER_00
And they gotta fix stuff.
4
SPEAKER_00
They have no emergency fund.
4
SPEAKER_00
Four in 10 people have zero dollars in savings.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so you add up all these stats, and you re going like, America has become land of the free and home of the broke.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, how did we get here?
4
SPEAKER_00
This is an amazing country with so much opportunity.
4
SPEAKER_00
We have the most advanced society in the world, and we have less time and money than ever before.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, when are we going to wake up and just break free from all this and go like, this ain t working.
4
SPEAKER_00
Let s try a different way.
4
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
4
SPEAKER_00
And that s why I m out here on the rooftops going like, here s how to do it.
4
SPEAKER_00
Break free from the system.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, you don t need a credit.
4
SPEAKER_00
Let s ditch the credit cards.
4
SPEAKER_00
Screw the student loans.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it s a hard road to travel.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s swimming upstream because we are so desensitized to debt in today s world.
4
SPEAKER_01
Here s a stat that I saw that you mentioned in the book.
4
SPEAKER_01
43 million Americans carry a total of $1.6 trillion in student loans.
4
SPEAKER_01
And also, the average student loan debt per borrower is almost $40,000, an average interest rate of 5.5%.
4
SPEAKER_01
So this amounts to a payment of about $393 a month based on those numbers Let s do some math that will move you from sad to angry if you pay $393 per month for 20 years you have paid more than $94,000 in total payments on a loan that was $40,000 at graduation and Then you say are you punching a hole in the wall yet?
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, what is your thoughts on on?
4
SPEAKER_01
getting into a good school, taking on $20,000, $40,000 a year in student loans, and graduating with $200,000 to $400,000 in student loans, what s your thoughts on that dream, that
5
SPEAKER_00
and colleges are selling teenage students today?
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, I think student loans and higher education has become a normalized scam in America today.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I m very pro-education.
5
SPEAKER_01
Hear me say that.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think education is great.
5
SPEAKER_01
But I don t think going to the dream school and taking on student loans to do it has the ROI that it used to.
5
SPEAKER_01
Really?
5
SPEAKER_01
You think it s a scam?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I mean, look at college tuition.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s risen 400%.
5
SPEAKER_01
And you re like, is this still worth it?
5
SPEAKER_01
It s not like- Am I getting better education?
5
SPEAKER_01
Salaries haven t increased by 400%.
5
SPEAKER_01
Degrees are not all rated equally.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so we tell people, only go to school if it s the only way and it s the best way.
5
SPEAKER_01
And even then, choose the most affordable school.
5
SPEAKER_01
And that might not be the dream school.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, my nephew, I think he s a genius.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like he s smarter than me today at like 19, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
He s read, I don t know, hundreds of books.
5
SPEAKER_00
He s like prodigy level then.
5
SPEAKER_00
Prodigy level, like just so intelligent, emotionally intelligent, IQ, EQ, all of it.
5
SPEAKER_00
But he went to a community college for the first two years because it was 500 bucks a quarter or something, whatever it is.
5
SPEAKER_00
You knew it debt free.
5
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, good for you.
5
SPEAKER_00
You could have like went to, and now he s going to Ohio State for his final two years.
5
SPEAKER_00
Transfer to the four year and finish.
5
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it s a state school.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s a lot cheaper.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like he can pay it off while he s working while he s in school to pay it off by the time he s done.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, that is a smart way to do it.
5
SPEAKER_00
Unless you re going for some specialty skill, like I was an athlete so I wanted to play at a university where I could play sports.
5
SPEAKER_00
That was different to help me get into being a professional athlete.
5
SPEAKER_00
I took on debt but I was able to pay it off within like seven years.
5
SPEAKER_00
And or some other like specialty skill, but usually you can find an internship, a mentorship.
5
SPEAKER_00
You can learn stuff online now that s affordable or free and learn these things and try to work somewhere during there as well.
5
SPEAKER_00
Is there ever a time, you know, Winston Churchill, you said in the book, a quote from Winston Churchill, I began my education at a very early age.
5
SPEAKER_00
In fact, right after I left college.
5
SPEAKER_00
I think it was someone else, maybe it was Einstein, someone that said don t let schooling get in the way of your education.
5
SPEAKER_01
Oh yeah, maybe in a Twain quote or something.
5
SPEAKER_00
Mark Twain, yeah, don t let schooling get in the way of your education.
5
SPEAKER_00
I almost used that one.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, it s become about the experience.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think we can admit that now.
5
SPEAKER_01
Look at colleges, they got, you know, they got whirlpools that they re selling in the college
5
SPEAKER_01
brochures, and look at the world-class cafeteria and the chefs.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s not about the education anymore.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s now become about mom and dad s reputation.
5
SPEAKER_01
And the parents can t brag to their friends about the kid going to community college down the road.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so what parents are doing is saying, hey, go to that school.
5
SPEAKER_01
We ll figure it out.
5
SPEAKER_01
What that turns into is we ll take out student loans in their name.
5
SPEAKER_01
We ve seen that on the Ramsey Show.
5
SPEAKER_01
We ll co-sign Parent PLUS loans, which just means the parent just took out debt.
5
SPEAKER_01
And here s what we ve seen.
5
SPEAKER_01
The kids can t always pay, and it falls back on the parent, and it makes Thanksgiving dinner real awkward.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so all of that, it turns into people paying for student loans for 20 years is the average.
5
SPEAKER_01
And the balance grows over time.
5
SPEAKER_01
They re paying this down with the minimum payment, so they think, or these income-driven repayment plans.
5
SPEAKER_01
And they started with 40 grand.
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, now the balance is 60.
5
SPEAKER_01
because they were in deferment and they couldn t pay and they re trying to get the job.
5
SPEAKER_01
And there wasn t this magic, you know, job at the end of the college rainbow with the salary they thought they were going to get.
5
SPEAKER_01
I interviewed high schoolers and they were just like flabbergasted when I was like, you re not going to make a hundred grand straight out of college with that degree.
5
SPEAKER_00
They thought they would.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
They all think, well, I ll just make six figures.
5
SPEAKER_01
It ll be fine.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I ll take on 200 grand in debt.
5
SPEAKER_01
I ll pay it.
5
SPEAKER_01
I ll be able to pay it off.
5
SPEAKER_01
Not realizing what your paycheck is going to be after taxes and what that s going to look like when you already have a car payment.
5
SPEAKER_01
And now everyone s telling you when you graduate, you got to get a house.
5
SPEAKER_01
What are you doing?
5
SPEAKER_01
You re a college graduate.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s the American dream.
5
SPEAKER_00
Travel the world and, you know, live your life.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so all of that just turns into this life that, you know, I say in the book that we were sold the American dream, but delivered the American nightmare.
5
SPEAKER_01
Especially with the student loan thing, and I love education.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think you can get more education from this show than you can from most college campuses, to be honest.
5
SPEAKER_01
And the people I ve seen that are successful are not successful because of a piece of paper.
5
SPEAKER_01
They re the secret sauce.
5
SPEAKER_01
And they just found the right…
5
SPEAKER_01
knowledge base and skillset to learn to do the thing they wanted to do.
5
SPEAKER_00
You know, it s interesting because I felt extremely insecure and stupid almost my entire life because of school, because I did so poorly in school.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I had a tutor every day.
5
SPEAKER_00
I was in special needs classes.
5
SPEAKER_00
When kids were doing lunch and recess, I was with a tutor alone, feeling shameful that I couldn t remember or comprehend the words on a page that I was reading as a middle school and high schooler.
5
SPEAKER_00
It was really, it felt really sad and lonely because everyone else was excelling in school.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I remember thinking like, gosh, I can t wait till the bell to ring at whatever, 3.20 or 3.30 every day so I can get on the sports field or the basketball court or the baseball field because that s where I was learning the most about myself, about how to set goals every day, about how to
5
SPEAKER_00
You know, be disciplined about how to listen to a coach and actually implement, okay, he s telling me to do this thing, I m going to do it.
5
SPEAKER_00
How to get feedback and receive feedback.
5
SPEAKER_00
How to communicate with teammates and work with a team.
5
SPEAKER_00
All those skills, I was like, this is school for me.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like, I m learning more in this two hours of practice than eight hours of a classroom.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I remember saying to myself, like, after school was done, because it was just a painful experience emotionally and spiritually in a sense, it was just like, I couldn t wait for things to be done.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, I am an idiot.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like, after school was over, I was like, I still don t know anything.
5
SPEAKER_00
And the things that I, the degree I got, like, I ll never use this and all these different things.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was like I need to learn a lot and there s still so much I need to learn.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I remember thinking to myself before I started the School of Greatness 10 years ago I was like I want to start something where I can learn from the smartest people in the world and get the best education.
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SPEAKER_00
And it s not gonna be sitting in a classroom all day.
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SPEAKER_00
It s gonna be learning one-to-one and then figuring out how can I share this with the world.
5
SPEAKER_00
And that s why it s a school of greatness.
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SPEAKER_00
I was like, this is what I wish I learned growing up.
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SPEAKER_00
Stuff that you talk about in your book.
5
SPEAKER_00
No one talks about this stuff.
5
SPEAKER_00
No one teaches you about the...
5
SPEAKER_00
the financial strain you might have for your whole life if you do certain things.
5
SPEAKER_00
They don t teach us about how to deal with losing or failure or emotions or all this different stuff that we need as adults, this different type of education.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s why I created the School of Greatness.
5
SPEAKER_00
And that s why I m glad that you re here talking about financial freedom and breaking free from broke like you have in your book.
5
SPEAKER_00
So the biggest financial scam that you think right now is college.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s the one that our generation was sold.
5
SPEAKER_01
I mean, think about it, from a young age, that s the path you re sold.
5
SPEAKER_00
What school are you to go to?
5
SPEAKER_01
Get good grades, to go to this school, to get a better job.
5
SPEAKER_01
that pays more money so that you can have a better financial life.
5
SPEAKER_01
It doesn t pan out these days.
5
SPEAKER_01
For most people, they, number one, either don t finish school, they don t use their degree, and they re paying it off for so long that there s no ROI there.
5
SPEAKER_01
And yes, there s trades, of course, that I think are undervalued in today s world, and you can go to trade school and pay for that in cash and be making more than your buddy who has his philosophy degree.
5
SPEAKER_01
Right, right.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so I think there s a lot of value in all kinds of work.
5
SPEAKER_01
And in the world we live in today, I mean, gosh, you can start a YouTube channel and podcast and be just fine.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so there s so many opportunities out there that I think, especially the younger generations, they re starting to sniff this out and go, mom, dad, I m not going to go to your alma mater.
5
SPEAKER_00
No, unless your parents want to pay for it and say, we re going to pay everything and you don t have to worry about any debt.
5
SPEAKER_00
And they just want to do it out of the kindness of their heart.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, OK, then maybe that s a thing you could do for four years to learn or four and a half, five years or whatever.
5
SPEAKER_01
You might be better off going to Europe for, you know, send me to Europe for 30 grand.
5
SPEAKER_01
Learn a language.
5
SPEAKER_01
And it s still cheaper.
5
SPEAKER_01
In Europe, yeah, exactly.
5
SPEAKER_01
If you want the experience and the social, you know, growth and all that.
5
SPEAKER_01
But there s nothing wrong with going to these famous schools and expensive schools.
5
SPEAKER_01
But if you re doing it with debt and doing it for the wrong reasons.
5
SPEAKER_01
And to put the pressure on a 17-year-old to be like, what do you want to do for the next 40 years?
5
SPEAKER_01
Because then there s sunk cost fallacy, and there s resentment.
5
SPEAKER_01
Because I grew up in Middle Eastern culture.
5
SPEAKER_01
It was like, well, you re either going to be in medicine, or you re going to be an engineer.
5
SPEAKER_00
Or a failure.
5
SPEAKER_01
You get two options.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so I was the failure.
5
SPEAKER_01
My parents were very supportive.
5
SPEAKER_01
I got a communication degree and went the op, but the rest of my family are, they re engineers and in medical, in the medicine world, which is great for them.
5
SPEAKER_01
But a lot of them are years later, still paying on those student loans.
5
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
5
SPEAKER_01
And you re going from a nurse to a nurse practitioner and to doctor and pharmacist and all of these paths, they take a lot of money.
5
SPEAKER_01
And sometimes you go, I thought I was going to make $300,000.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m in residency and I m not making squat.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, and so there s just a lot of misinformation and myths around what the future will look like.
5
SPEAKER_01
And when you do it without debt, you just have less stress, more peace about the next step.
5
SPEAKER_01
And you can, you have different options.
5
SPEAKER_01
You don t have to take that first job.
5
SPEAKER_01
You can wait.
5
SPEAKER_00
What would you say are the three biggest killers of wealth in America?
5
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I, on my YouTube.
6
SPEAKER_01
channel I did a video it was America s number one wealth killer and it was about car loans and that one blew up tell me why because I did the math and math sometimes is offensive of what that car payment would be if you had just simply invested it and it was millions of dollars we re talking like six million dollars if you invest the average car payment give me a breakdown of this
6
SPEAKER_01
Well, if you take, you know, the average car payment I think of the book was, you know, 600 bucks now, 700 bucks for a new car.
6
SPEAKER_01
A month.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, 700 bucks for a new car.
6
SPEAKER_01
Five grand down probably, 700 a month or something, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
That s normal now because new cars are now 40, 50 grand.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so 700 bucks a month invested in the S&P 500, which historically, you know, we ll see a 10% return, 11% return.
6
SPEAKER_01
Well, over 30 years of your career, 700 bucks a month, it s a freaking lot of money and it turns into
6
SPEAKER_01
millions and millions of dollars.
6
SPEAKER_01
Now the opposite side is, let s say you re going to be the tortoise.
6
SPEAKER_01
You re going to be me, and you re going to go, well, I m going to buy the $6,000 car, and I m going to slowly upgrade over time to the used $12,000 car, maybe eventually to the $20,000 car, $30,000, whatever.
6
SPEAKER_01
You re going to do it with cash over a long period of time, and that payment you would have had, you can put that away, save it, invest it, sinking funds, all of that, and you re not paying any interest.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so I think the choices we make because of loans, we go, well, I can t afford a $50,000 car, but I can afford a $500 monthly payment.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s broken.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like wealthy people ask a different question.
6
SPEAKER_01
They don t ask how much down, how much a month.
6
SPEAKER_01
They ask how much, what is the full price?
6
SPEAKER_01
And if I can t afford it, I m not buying it.
6
SPEAKER_00
I m going to pay it all in cash right now and not have this payment over time.
6
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely.
6
SPEAKER_01
So I think car loans are number one.
6
SPEAKER_00
What s the benefit of, say someone s like, I want to buy a really fancy car.
6
SPEAKER_00
I want to buy a $50,000 to maybe a $80,000 car, $100,000 car.
6
SPEAKER_00
and they re saying to themselves, why spend a hundred grand on a car when I can just pay, you know, 1300 a month and keep that cash.
6
SPEAKER_00
I can invest that cash in the market and that s going to grow for me and pay down my payments over time.
6
SPEAKER_00
What do you say to that?
6
SPEAKER_01
Well, I think those people, first of all, they rarely have the margin to be able to do that.
6
SPEAKER_01
And usually if they re spending a hundred grand on a car, they re going to be flexing in other ways in other parts of their life.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so this idea that I could like arbitrage that money, I m going to deploy my cash in this way.
6
SPEAKER_01
I think it s a losing game.
6
SPEAKER_01
And because it stems from comparison and discontentment.
6
SPEAKER_01
It stems from I want something that I can t afford, but I want it anyways.
6
SPEAKER_01
And debt allows me to have it now.
6
SPEAKER_00
What if someone can t afford it?
6
SPEAKER_00
If they can t afford it, go for it.
6
SPEAKER_00
If someone can t afford it, should they pay it all in cash and be done with it in one payment?
6
SPEAKER_00
Or should they say, you know, I can afford it, but I m going to be able to pay these payments down also.
6
SPEAKER_00
But I d like to have more cash in the bank for whatever reason.
6
SPEAKER_00
Sure.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
Now, I think for most people, if you have, let s say, $100,000 in cash, and you re going to get a $100,000 car, be like, well, I could just take on the payments.
6
SPEAKER_01
I ll use this elsewhere.
6
SPEAKER_01
I think if you re actually doing the math, it just doesn t make sense.
6
SPEAKER_01
Because number one, you re assuming, well, the market s just going to keep going up and up and up.
6
SPEAKER_01
I ll always make money.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s a roller coaster.
6
SPEAKER_01
So, if you re investing for the short term, that s a dangerous game.
6
SPEAKER_01
But on the other side, when you look at that $100,000 car, and the more expensive the car, the more it s going to depreciate most likely.
6
SPEAKER_01
The $100,000 car, we ve seen, and I talk about this in the book, in five years, it goes down 60% in value.
6
SPEAKER_01
Five years.
6
SPEAKER_01
So, $100,000 down to $40,000.
6
SPEAKER_01
You re like, that hurts my brain to think about.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s depreciating asset, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so you re paying interest on the depreciating asset.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so you re getting hurt on both ends there.
6
SPEAKER_01
And what we found on the Ramsey Show, almost every single caller saying, help me, I m underwater in my car.
6
SPEAKER_01
I owe 60, it s only worth 40.
6
SPEAKER_01
What do I do?
6
SPEAKER_01
What do they do?
6
SPEAKER_01
You don t have that problem when you don t have a car payment, when you just paid in cash.
6
SPEAKER_00
What do those people do if they ve in that situation though?
6
SPEAKER_00
What do you guys suggest?
6
SPEAKER_01
There s only a few options.
6
SPEAKER_01
Number one is you just hang on to the car and pay it off.
6
SPEAKER_01
Number two, you come up with a difference.
6
SPEAKER_01
So let s say you re 20 grand underwater, you come up with 20 grand in cash, saving up over time, in order to pay off that loan in full.
6
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
6
SPEAKER_01
Then the other option is you go to your local credit union and get a personal loan for the difference.
6
SPEAKER_01
And say, listen, the same place that gave you the loan in the first place, you go, you got a bad loan on your hands.
6
SPEAKER_01
You got bad collateral here because what you gave me, this asset is not worth that anymore.
6
SPEAKER_01
Can I have the difference in order to get rid of this asset, get it out of my life, get out from under this car payment?
6
SPEAKER_01
So it s none of them.
6
SPEAKER_01
None of those options are pretty, by the way.
6
SPEAKER_01
So you don t think you should ever get a car loan?
6
SPEAKER_01
No.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
I don t think it s wise.
6
SPEAKER_01
There s a lot of like, you know, financial people out there going like, well, here s the parameters.
6
SPEAKER_01
And if you do it this much down, you know, I ve seen it all.
6
SPEAKER_01
But what I ve also seen is people who build wealth of intentionality and they re not trying to flex.
6
SPEAKER_01
They just buy the cars they can afford.
6
SPEAKER_01
Right.
6
SPEAKER_01
And once you have no payments and that s a value you live by, you just make different decisions.
6
SPEAKER_01
Because once payments are normal on one end, you re just going to go, well, it s fine.
6
SPEAKER_01
I already got a payment here.
6
SPEAKER_01
I got a payment there.
6
SPEAKER_01
When you decide I m done with debt, it is so freeing because you just go, I could save up 20 grand.
6
SPEAKER_01
I know how to do that.
6
SPEAKER_01
I did it for the down payment.
6
SPEAKER_01
I did it for college.
6
SPEAKER_01
I can do it for the car.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so cars are utility and it s fun.
6
SPEAKER_01
You know, Dave, Dave Ramsey s got some really nice cars.
6
SPEAKER_01
He s saved cash for all of them.
6
SPEAKER_01
He gets to choose what kind of car he drives.
6
SPEAKER_01
So we always say drive like no one else.
6
SPEAKER_01
So later you can drive like no one else.
6
SPEAKER_01
And that was me.
6
SPEAKER_01
I drove an 09 Civic just a few years ago.
6
SPEAKER_01
Oh, wow.
6
SPEAKER_01
With the bumper hanging off.
6
SPEAKER_01
Dave Ramsey s making fun of me.
6
SPEAKER_01
He s going, come on, dude.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s time to upgrade the car.
6
SPEAKER_01
But I was like, I m paying off the house first.
6
SPEAKER_01
And then I m going to upgrade.
6
SPEAKER_01
And even then I bought a used car still.
6
SPEAKER_00
And even- Nicer used car though.
6
SPEAKER_00
Nicer.
6
SPEAKER_01
Very nice, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so we just upgraded my wife s car because she deserves way better than I do.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so it hurt my soul to write that check, but man, it felt good to not have a payment next month.
6
SPEAKER_01
Right.
6
SPEAKER_01
And the month after that, and the month after that.
6
SPEAKER_01
So now we re able to invest in my little girl s 529 plan and save up for that vacation and she can enjoy the car and it can go down in value and it doesn t hurt my soul one bit.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s not, we re never going to be underwater on this car.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s just a toy.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s a toy, but she appreciates it.
6
SPEAKER_00
It allows her to feel safe or an emotional connection or, you know.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s okay to, like, people think that we re against having nice stuff and nice cars.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like, they just want you to drive beater cars forever.
6
SPEAKER_01
I m like, no, drive a beater car while you re broke so you can get, break free from broke to get the car you really want, but you own it and it doesn t own you.
6
SPEAKER_01
And American culture these days is everything owns you because you ve got payments attached to everything in your life.
6
SPEAKER_00
Now, what s your thoughts on,
6
SPEAKER_00
Buying a home being a great decision or a horrible decision?
6
SPEAKER_00
Because you hear a lot of people saying like, never buy a home that you live in, like just rent.
6
SPEAKER_01
I know who you re talking about.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
And also it s just like homes are getting more and more expensive.
6
SPEAKER_00
I mean, a home in Los Angeles is pretty unaffordable for a lot of people compared to maybe Idaho or something where a home might be a different price.
6
SPEAKER_00
But should we be buying our own home and taking on this massive mortgage and this massive debt and these payments every month?
6
SPEAKER_00
And then having to fix things up and, you know, fix the roof and the water or the systems, whatever it is, and all the state taxes and all these other fees that come with owning a house.
6
SPEAKER_00
Or just rent a house, let someone else take care of all that stress, and you stay in a space that is more flexible for you.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, well, I think renting has got a real bad rap in today s world, and I hate that because I think renting is very wise.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s buying patience.
6
SPEAKER_01
And for a lot of people, it does make sense.
6
SPEAKER_01
And if you re living in a high cost of living city, you re not entitled to be a homeowner and you live in New York City or LA.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s going to be harder.
6
SPEAKER_01
If you want to buy a home in San Francisco, and that s where you choose to live, you better have the income to support living in San Francisco.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so I think home ownership is a great goal that everyone should have to at some point be a homeowner and have that house paid off.
6
SPEAKER_01
And we ve seen that as part of the millionaire study.
6
SPEAKER_01
A paid off home was a huge part of their net worth.
6
SPEAKER_01
Really?
6
SPEAKER_01
There s about a third of their net worth of millionaires was in a paid for home.
6
SPEAKER_01
And the average millionaire paid off their home in 10.2 years.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so I think it s a huge part.
6
SPEAKER_01
I think renting forever is also a bad plan.
6
SPEAKER_01
of just going, because rent s going to go up over time, because those homeowners  property taxes go up over time, and someone owns that house.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so that s also a bad plan.
6
SPEAKER_01
I want you to have a fixed expense of a home and then soon pay that off.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so here s the way to do it to where you know you re not making a poor decision.
6
SPEAKER_01
Only buy a house when you re financially ready.
6
SPEAKER_01
And that has nothing to do with home prices and interest rates.
6
SPEAKER_01
It has everything to do with your own financial home.
6
SPEAKER_01
How do you know when you re financially ready to buy a home?
6
SPEAKER_01
Once you re completely debt free of consumer debt, you ve done the debt snowball, you have a fully funded emergency fund, three to six months of expenses, then you save up the down payment.
6
SPEAKER_01
And here s the other kicker.
6
SPEAKER_01
Not only do you have the down payment, but you get a 15 year fixed rate mortgage where the payment is no more than a quarter of your after tax income.
6
SPEAKER_01
So that looks a lot like if you make five grand a month, $1250 should be where that mortgage sits on a 15 year.
6
SPEAKER_01
Now that s hard to do, I ll admit.
6
SPEAKER_01
In today s world with home prices and interest rates, that s going to be hard.
6
SPEAKER_01
So what do you have to do?
6
SPEAKER_01
Make different decisions.
6
SPEAKER_01
Because the math didn t change.
6
SPEAKER_01
So what has to change is your expectations of your first home.
7
SPEAKER_01
that might mean we get the condo instead of the single family.
7
SPEAKER_01
It might mean we re 45 minutes outside of the city because that s the one we can afford.
7
SPEAKER_01
It might mean we gotta save up a bigger down payment for the next two years in order to do this wisely.
7
SPEAKER_01
Right, right.
7
SPEAKER_01
But the other option is, and we get this on the Ramsey Show, people call us and say, hey, my parents pressured us to buy a house and now it s 65% of our take-home pay and we re broke, we can t afford this and that and we can t put food on the table and cover our bills and we gotta sell the house now.
7
SPEAKER_01
Well, that turns home ownership from a blessing to a burden.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so there s a right way to do it and a right time to do it.
7
SPEAKER_01
But unfortunately, people in their 20s are just like, well, it s time for me to buy a home.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s the American dream.
7
SPEAKER_01
Where s my home?
7
SPEAKER_01
I got the degree.
7
SPEAKER_01
I m still paying all my student loans, but gosh, I need to get a home.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so there s a time and a place for it.
7
SPEAKER_01
Should you buy a home if you have student debt?
7
SPEAKER_01
Woof.
7
SPEAKER_01
Well, my hot take is no.
7
SPEAKER_01
My hot take is pay off all consumer debt before you get a home.
7
SPEAKER_01
And your student loans.
7
SPEAKER_01
Everything.
7
SPEAKER_01
Student loans, credit cards, car loans.
7
SPEAKER_01
It all needs to go before you become a homeowner.
7
SPEAKER_01
What?
7
SPEAKER_01
Because it just adds, it compounds the stress.
7
SPEAKER_01
Because you know home ownership is, it s real expensive.
7
SPEAKER_01
Like, you think it s apples to apples.
7
SPEAKER_01
$2,000 in rent is not $2,000 in mortgage, because the rent is the least you ll pay.
7
SPEAKER_01
The mortgage, that s just the starting point before you start dealing with maintenance and repairs and the HVAC went out and the roof needs to be replaced four years from now.
7
SPEAKER_01
I mean, those are some big ticket items.
7
SPEAKER_00
And your time to fixing stuff or whatever, managing things differently.
7
SPEAKER_01
So sometimes I miss the days of renting when I could just call the apartment complex and be like, you got a problem to fix over here.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so it really is a blessing while you re renting.
7
SPEAKER_01
I know it stinks because you re like, I m not building equity, but building that patience muscle is so important and ignoring everyone else s noise of like, you got to get a house, man.
7
SPEAKER_01
If you don t get in now, you ll never get in.
7
SPEAKER_00
I lived in a two bedroom apartment.
7
SPEAKER_00
for I don t know 15 years you know until I was 40.
7
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
7
SPEAKER_00
I lived in a two-bedroom apartment and I felt completely fine with that you know it was it was a nice apartment I had like what I needed and I upgraded you know over time into a nicer apartments but
7
SPEAKER_00
I did not feel like I m missing out by not having a home.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I didn t have debt also.
7
SPEAKER_00
I liked the flexibility of renting and having the convenience to be able to travel and making sure someone s taking care of my stuff.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I didn t know what city I was going to be in.
7
SPEAKER_00
But you re more flexible.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
7
SPEAKER_01
If you re renting, like, if you want to move cities and a different job.
7
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
7
SPEAKER_01
Versus, what do I do now?
7
SPEAKER_01
The house isn t selling and I got to get to this job.
7
SPEAKER_01
You re more planted when you become a homeowner.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s not easy to get out.
7
SPEAKER_01
There could be tax implications if you sell too soon.
7
SPEAKER_01
So it definitely complicates things.
7
SPEAKER_01
But overall, it s a great part of your wealth building journey.
7
SPEAKER_01
And I encourage everyone to do it.
7
SPEAKER_01
But don t feel pressured and don t do it before you re ready.
7
SPEAKER_01
Is there such a thing as good debt versus bad debt?
7
SPEAKER_01
Well, I wrote a chapter in the book called Debt is a Thief, and it s not bad debt is a thief, it s just debt is a thief.
7
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so the hot take here is that your greatest wealth building tool is your income.
7
SPEAKER_01
And when you re giving any part of that to a lender, you don t have your greatest wealth building tool at your disposal completely.
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And so I ve never seen, you know, you always hear stories about people leveraging debt and, you know, mortgages in a sense with your home appreciating people like, well, that s good debt, but it doesn t mean we want to hang on to the debt.
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The home is the part that s amazing.
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It s not hanging on to the debt.
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And even with these low interest rates, people feel stuck because they have a 2%, 3% interest rate on their home.
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They re like, I can never get rid of this house.
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I can never sell, because I ll lose this precious debt.
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The idea that we re so obsessed and attached to our debt shows how far off the beaten path we are as a culture.
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So I truly don t believe there s good debt and bad debt, because I ve only seen debt hurt people.
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And the people that say they re winning, it s easy to go on TikTok and be like, well, it worked for me, and you should do it too.
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That s terrible advice because you don t know this other person s situation and what life s going to throw at them.
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And so it always adds risk.
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You see a lot of people, especially in kind of the real estate space, saying, you know, it s.
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The only good debt you can have is when you re borrowing money to like get real estate and then you re buying more to have more real estate and it s compounding interest over time or you re building equity in that or whatever it might be and you have 10 homes now but you re all in debt with all these homes.
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You re borrowing it from the previous home.
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And unfortunately there was a guy I met, I don t know, earlier this year.
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I only met him once but we had a nice kind of two hour dinner conversation.
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And unfortunately, it was public about a month or two ago that he committed suicide because he was a real estate guy.
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He had invested in way too much.
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Overleveraged.
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Overleveraged.
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He just had his first child, and the pressure was too much for him to take on, how am I going to pay this off now?
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It was like some building that he invested in or something.
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He was developing.
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He was investing.
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And he had a lot of, I guess, net worth on paper, but then it was over leveraged and the pressure was too much.
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And he took his own life about a month or two ago.
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And it s just like, again, you hear some people saying like, yeah, it s cool to have debt, but until you feel like everyone s calling you and collecting and you don t know what to do and you can t get access to money to pay this off,
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Are you emotionally stable enough to manage that chaos and stress in your life?
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Do you want that in your life?
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And I don t know all the details of what actually happened, but I do know that more money doesn t always mean more peace.
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Sometimes more money means more pain if you re not educated or emotionally ready for that amount of money.
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And do you think that is,
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Do you think if people got written a million dollar check today and they were in debt, do you think their lives would be better or more stressful?
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Well, I think money magnifies who you are.
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And if you ve never managed a lot of money, it s scary.
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Because if you haven t managed the little money you ve had well, what makes you think you re going to manage a million dollars well?
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Just because you have more of it doesn t mean you re going to make wise decisions.
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And we see this with the data on lottery winners.
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It s gone.
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Like, how did you blow?
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We got a call the other day, and this guy s like, I won a million bucks, and it was gone within a few years.
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Really?
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And he just blew it.
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Doesn t take much, you know?
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And so it was really sad, because a million bucks in the lottery is really 600,000, and you spend 100,000 a year for six years, gone.
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The money s gone.
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Yeah.
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Not that crazy to do.
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And so, I mean, you ve had our friend Dave Ramsey on this show multiple times, and he shared his story of bankruptcy.
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And he was over leveraged in real estate.
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The bank called the notes and he couldn t sell off the properties fast enough and it destroyed his life.
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Wow.
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It almost destroyed his marriage.
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And so, there s a reason Dave is so risk averse when it comes to debt.
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And now he has a $600 million real estate portfolio with the Ramsey headquarters and all kinds of properties.
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and he paid cash for every dang one.
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That s incredible.
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He doesn t have a cent of debt.
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And so to me, it s inspiring to go like, you don t have to, there s not this one game you have to play to be a real estate investor.
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You can do it differently.
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You can go slow until you can go fast.
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And that s what Dave did.
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Because when you have all paid for properties, that thing cash flows like a mother.
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And so all of a sudden, pretty quickly, you have enough cash to deploy and get more property.
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Right.
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And so it s a different game.
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It s the tortoise versus the hare, but Dave s real peaceful with this property.
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You know what I mean?
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Like no one s ever coming after him to collect.
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Exactly.
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And so that puts you in control.
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Your book, Breaking Free from Broke, The Ultimate Guide to More Money and Less Stress.
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People can grab it right now.
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It s out.
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So make sure you guys go pick up a copy.
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Get one for your friends as well.
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A lot of great content in here to help you get free from the stress of debt and just understanding your money better.
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So congrats on this.
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Thank you.
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A couple of final questions for you.
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This one s called The Three Truths.
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So I m going to shift it for you a little bit differently.
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OK.
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I d like you to imagine that this was your last day on Earth.
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And for whatever reason, you would have to take all of your content with you.
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This book wasn t around, your YouTube channel, anything you ve ever shared isn t around.
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And you didn t get to watch your daughter grow up.
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But you get to leave behind three lessons to her.
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And this is all she would have to remember you by.
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It would be a video that she would get to watch as many times for the rest of her life.
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What would be those three truths or three lessons you would leave to her?
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Man.
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That s like dropping an atom bomb here.
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I feel like I need to film one of those videos that s like, in the in case I die video.
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And it s like, here s the lessons.
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Lewis asked me to make this video for you.
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Exactly.
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Oh man.
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It doesn t have to be perfect and I ll put you on the spot, but what would those kind of lessons be?
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It wouldn t always be to her, but to the world.
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What would be those lessons?
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I remember watching the last episode of Conan O Brien s late night show and it has stuck with me and he talks about cynicism and his final plea on the show is please do not be cynical.
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And that s part of the reason I wrote this conclusion, and it goes far beyond money.
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And my lesson to her is, don t be cynical.
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Hope is a choice, cynicism is choice.
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I hope you choose hope.
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And so that would be my first lesson to her, because life is so much better and richer
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when you choose hope even though it s the hard thing to do it s the stupid cheesy thing to do gosh there s no use if you re drinking your own poison when you just walk around cynical towards the world and that leads to I think other lessons which is kindness is currency mm-hmm like kindness is such an underrated superpower in today s world it diffuses
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I mean, it s the best revenge, you know what I mean?
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Just to be all like, just unreasonably kind to people regardless of what s happening.
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I think that s a really cool thing.
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And the last thing I would say is not caring about what other people think is a superpower.
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If she can avoid comparisons, especially in the Lord knows what kind of world she ll grow up in with social media and the stuff that kids are getting into at 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 years old and how it shapes their image of themselves.
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I want to raise a daughter who is
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so confident, so kind, and she knows exactly who she is.
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And no man, no woman is going to change that because she is so confident in her goals, her values, her identity, her family.
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And that to me is the most powerful thing, is if you can have that kind of a mentality of, I m not gonna compare my life to others, I m doing my own thing, I m gonna be kind to everyone I meet, and I m gonna be a hopeful person instead of a cynical person.
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I think that will bleed into all of the financial principles that I m out here preaching.
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Delayed gratification is going to be part of that.
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Wealth is patience is going to be part of that.
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You re going to be a person of character who s going to build wealth the right way and have the work ethic if you believe those things.
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And I think those are the people who ultimately become wildly successful.
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It s not the evil people out there who got on the backs of others.
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It s people with integrity and kindness who were optimistic about the future.
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And we need that more than ever.
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I love that.
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I love that, man.
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Well, Mia s got a great, great future.
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I hope so.
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She ll have you to raise her to teach those things as well.
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This is her, by the way.
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Oh, man, that s cute.
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Wow.
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That s awesome, man.
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Thank you.
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Breaking free from Broke, the ultimate guide to more money and less stress.
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Make sure you guys get your copy from George Camel.
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Also, check out your channel on YouTube if you want more great content from George Camel and your name everywhere on social media.
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Love this stuff, man.
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This is really powerful.
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I want to acknowledge you, George, for a moment.
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Being an example for a lot of people, a lot of people who started out or maybe right now are in debt, they got student loans, maybe they haven t made the best decisions because they weren t educated or they didn t know any better.
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You re a great example of what s possible with commitment, with consistency, and with really educating yourself and being disciplined over a period of time, and how you can break free from that.
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So it s really cool to see live examples of individuals right now who are young.
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How old are you again?
8
34.
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34, yeah.
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So it doesn t take 50 until you get debt free and feel like this sense of financial freedom.
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It doesn t have to take forever, you know, it s just being disciplined and you ve been consistent with that.
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So I acknowledge you.
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Thank you.
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Of course.
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Final question for you.
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What s your definition of greatness?
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Oh, my definition of greatness.
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How to, oh, I want to beat everyone else, but I don t have a good enough answer.
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You ve had some greats on this, on this show.
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My definition of greatness, of greatness.
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is a relentless perseverance for excellence.
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I think that s the thing I admire in anyone I meet, is they re just not okay with anything less than excellent.
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And it s not out of a place of perfectionism or I wanna be better than everyone, it s a personal race against themselves and their own creativity and ingenuity and innovation.
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I think Dave Ramsey has that.
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I think it s why people love him.
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And that also bleeds into the other character traits we talked about of having integrity and being kind.
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So I think that s what I m after is a relentless perseverance of excellence in everything that I do.
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I hope today s episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness.
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Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today s show with all the important links.
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And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel on apple podcast.
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If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend, leave us a review over on Apple podcast, and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis Howes.
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I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better.
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And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness Newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com slash newsletter.
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And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.
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And now it s time to go out there and do something great.