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I m David Farrier, and New Zealand accidentally marooned in America, and I want to figure out what makes this country tick.
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Now, since I ve been here, something quite weird s happened, and I m not quite sure why.
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I ve become much more aware of crime.
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Now, I m not more aware of crime because I m witnessing crime first-hand, it s more because I m being told about crime.
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I m not sure when it started, maybe when I started following local news stations on Instagram.
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Or maybe it was when I installed Citizen on my phone, this app which blasts me with crime news updates in my neighbourhood.
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Some updates are useful, other ones, I m not so sure.
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An axe-wielding man a mile away.
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Someone spotted naked and screaming a few streets over.
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This all led me to think about something America has really made its own.
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True crime.
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I m not saying America invented the true crime genre, but thanks to podcasts like Serial and shows like Making a Murderer, it s pushed the genre into the stratosphere.
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Serials been downloaded about 350 million times, a podcasting world record, and since Making a Murderer came out nearly a decade ago, Netflix has invested heavily in the genre.
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In this episode, I m going to share the 10 true crime shows that have captivated my own brain, and also talk to one of the real-life characters from a popular true crime podcast to see what they make of this sometimes ethically murky type of storytelling.
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So, get ready to decide if it s entertainment, documentary, or both, because this is the True Crime Episode.
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All right.
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How do we feel about true crime?
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I m excited for this.
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Do you watch and consume true crime stuff?
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What s your relationship with it?
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Yeah.
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Serial is my favorite podcast of all time.
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It was a big hit.
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It was such good storytelling.
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It s almost difficult to remember a time before Serial.
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I know.
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Because it changed the kinds of things that people made in every genre, whether it s podcast or documentary.
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I mean, there s always been docs and stuff, true crime docs, but I do feel like Serial catapulted it into a new level that rebirthed the genre into like a major, major boom.
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There s these amazing books in Cold Blood and Howlter Skelter.
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And, you know, so true crime was always a thing, but I feel Serial made it hit the mainstream.
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It did.
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I feel like Netflix helped make documentaries a new thing, kind of reinvented it.
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And I feel like Serial kind of changed the way people viewed how crime could be told specifically.
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And I think it was so good.
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My theory is it s all down to the cliffhanger.
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Yeah.
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Like it nailed that type of storytelling.
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It really did.
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But I love so many of the docs, like the Jinx.
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Oh, yes.
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I love the Jinx.
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Yeah, that s on my list later.
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Oh, it is?
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I know, I kind of want to guess your list.
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Yeah, there ll definitely be some crossover between what we like.
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But I m also curious to hear later on, like what stuff has inspired you.
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And I can guarantee that people listening to this will be screaming as they listen, because they didn t talk about that thing.
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And I think that s the joy of it because there s so much stuff out there.
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There s true crime that I haven t even gone near because it s just too vast and too huge.
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Did you deep dive into the gender element of it?
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No, we can talk about it.
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Okay.
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I am about to interview someone who is a female who was in a true crime podcast.
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I went along to a true crime podcast meet.
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And so I can talk a little bit to that.
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Meet?
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What s that mean?
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A meetup.
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Just fans, and it s very female-centric.
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It is, I know.
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Yeah.
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When we were shooting Dark Tourist, we went on a Jeffrey Dahmer tour, and it was pretty much all female.
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Really?
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Yeah, that really surprised me, because I knew that females leant more into that type of storytelling, but to turn up to a tour of Jeffrey Dahmer, I was the only guy there, and I just thought that was really interesting.
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I think, I mean, do you have a theory on it?
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To be honest, no, I m curious for your take, because I haven t thought about it that much.
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And even in Dark Tourist, we didn t go that deep into what the appeal is with women.
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Look, if I m going to top my head, my theory, women are the ones in society who have to watch out for shit the most.
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They re hyper aware of the stuff.
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They re curious about what the tells are.
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I can walk around LA at 11pm on my own and feel okay.
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I wouldn t say the same for you because you re just more aware.
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Exactly.
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And we re more susceptible.
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I mean, Liz and I have had this debate on Synced.
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I just stand by that.
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It s the reality of the world.
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We are smaller for the most part, and that means we compete physically dominated for the most part.
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So yes, I agree with you.
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I think it s like a female Spidey sense.
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Yeah, that you have to have.
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That you have to have.
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And so it s like, let me learn everything I can so I can prevent it, so I can see it coming, so I can sort of live out the fear.
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Because I do think whether we acknowledge it or not, women
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live with the level of fear.
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And it could be subconscious, but watching it play out and knowing the end.
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You re right.
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It s like, we talked a bit about this in the Halloween episode where we went to the haunted house, where a haunted house is a way of feeling this stuff and exploring those emotions.
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In a safe way.
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In a safe way.
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And I also think maybe there s something in it as well, and I might be off here, but I feel like if you re female, just statistically, and you have something bad happen, you re going to be ignored, generally.
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That, historically.
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And I think true crime is a way where you can see people being empowered to actually tell a story and be heard and potentially change something as well.
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And I think it s really interesting as well that the narrator for Serial was female as well.
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And we re so used to male voices.
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Sarah Koenig.
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Yeah.
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Who s this person?
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One of the most famous podcasters of all time.
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God, she s good.
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Yeah, I think the New York Times, I think, bought Serial.
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So it s all sitting over there.
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Yeah, it s there.
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Yeah.
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What do you think, and we can get into this a bit more later, but do you have any thoughts on the commodification of crime?
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Because that s the other side.
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Dirty side.
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We re sitting on our couch.
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I m a guy, I m eating popcorn.
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You love popcorn.
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I love popcorn.
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It s like, what am I watching tonight?
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Am I watching Jurassic Park or am I going to watch some grisly murder?
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And it s doing the same thing, right?
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It s entertaining me.
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I know it s complex, especially because these are real people and often they re getting exploited in some way.
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It s hard to feel bad for the people who ve committed the murders.
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I have a hard time having compassion there for their exploitation.
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But even the victims can get exploited in here.
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Completely.
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Yeah, that s the tricky level because it s about people being exploited and then at times I think you have people being exploited again when they re brought into this documentary world.
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I always think of Tiger King, which was that, my opinion, a pretty bad doc.
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It was just... You didn t like it.
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I devoured it.
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Yeah, it was tasty.
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It was tasty.
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I don t think it did a lot of good for the world.
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It was kind of like... Interesting, tell me.
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My take on that, I watched it in New Zealand.
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It was during our little lockdown, as many of us were going through with COVID.
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And it just felt like here is a little window into a freak show.
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Let s look at these people that are struggling and having a terrible time and are kind of like a bit silly and let s laugh.
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That s sort of what it felt like to me.
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Wow, David, I m shocked right now that that s your take, because I tend to place you in a category of looking at the freaks.
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And enjoying it.
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Yeah.
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And part of it s anthropological for you, I think.
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Totally.
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Like, I think you find human behavior very interesting.
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Yeah.
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And especially when it s outside of a norm.
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And so I would have expected you to, like, really like that.
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Be, like, on board.
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It s a balance.
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I guess I dabble in true crime, right?
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I made Tickles, which was a true crime where no one died, but same sort of genre.
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It s looking at a mystery, some shit s going on.
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You wrote a newsletter recently that was true crimey.
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Oh, yeah.
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On webware, I m about my friend whose flatmate killed a neighbor.
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Yeah, so that is in the true crime genre, right?
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And I love that stuff.
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I think how I would, on my moral high horse, differentiate myself from a Tiger King is I like to think that the stuff I dive into has something to say, which is debatable.
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Well, no, I think it does.
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I would just argue that Tiger King didn t really have a lot to say, to the point where I remember the final episode of Tiger King, they almost, in the last five minutes, sort of hemmed in this really heavy-handed voiceover talking about the exploitation of animals, as if to say, okay, so what have we learned?
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Oh, I could see that.
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It s probably bad keeping these animals.
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We shouldn t do this.
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Let s look at this as an example.
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Well, you re right.
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I definitely don t think the story was about animals.
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It was about human behavior, human manipulation.
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And that I find interesting.
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And it s happening all around us.
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We re getting manipulated all the time.
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I mean, again, if I m going to be compassionate, I think people are desperate and will do whatever they can for
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power, money, approval, like anything.
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And so I do like seeing the dark.
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We re all dark, we all have shit.
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Completely, and watching it play out, you do learn about how we humans tick.
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The thing I was originally thinking about with Tiger King as an example of the ethical implications of true crime, we watch Tiger King, we enjoy it, we judge people, we come away with our conclusions about whether you should keep tigers in captivity and how much you should do meth.
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But if you look at the people in that documentary, they were people who had no profile, they were just in their world.
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They re suddenly in the biggest hit TV show.
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And I was particularly interested in one of the characters who was the campaign manager for Joe Exotic when he had his little political run.
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His name was Josh Dial.
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And he s sort of a very sympathetic character in the doc, but I watched him.
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I followed all the Joe Exotic sort of characters on Facebook, out to the doc head.
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And here s this guy who suddenly found fame.
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He s on Cameo, like a lot of the cast is on Cameo.
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And he s just cratered.
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He s on Facebook at the moment, basically every day wanting Venmo for petrol or for his lunch.
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He s unhoused.
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Oh no.
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It s interesting when you get these people, you know, the pitch would be sit down and be in this documentary, maybe talk about this stuff and like, okay, overnight on Netflix, you re then a worldwide icon.
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And what that can do to some people, there s no safety net.
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No, absolutely not.
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They re just in it, and then they have to cope with it.
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And I think that can be really problematic.
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God, I didn t know that.
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I haven t really followed any of those people since.
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No, I don t think anyone did.
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Except you.
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Except my weird fascination.
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But they kind of became tigers in captivity in some bizarre way.
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They became zoo animals.
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100% and they got attention.
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And when you go from, you know, you re in a documentary where something hideous has happened or something stressful, and then the next minute you ve got Cameo emailing being like, hey, come on our celeb site.
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It s just a really warping, interesting thing.
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And I think that s the interesting thing about true crime where the celebrity aspect bleeds in.
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Well, do you struggle with this as a documentarian?
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Yeah, at times, because it s always the balance of, are you coming to it with, objectivity comes into it.
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How objective are you?
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My last true crime doc, Mr. Organ, was not objective at all.
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It was very unobjective.
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There s also a lot of issues around how you care for talent.
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I mean, everyone I ve made a film with, I m Facebook friends with, and I still hear from them.
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I mean, I still talk to people from Tickles and Dark Tourist, and it s just kind of part of the duty of care is remaining in that world.
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And I think those are really interesting issues to have.
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It s not like you make a film with actors, you do your thing, and it s kind of a chapter with documentary.
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All the characters live on with their lives now with more eyes on them.
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And yeah, it raises some pretty interesting questions.
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Anyway, look, for this documentary, I sort of get a bit more into some of the stuff, so I m going to play you what I made.
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Okay, let s hear it.
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Before I rabbit on too much to Monica and Rob about the things I recommend in the true crime space, I wanted to meet someone who s found themselves smack bang in the middle of the true crime genre.
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I had a lot of ideas on who I could talk to for this.
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People like Aaron Lee Carr, who makes a lot of true crime documentaries.
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Aaron s appeared on Armchair Expert a few times now, and those episodes are a really good listen.
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But the more I thought about it, one person kept coming to mind.
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For one thing, she was interviewed for an incredibly popular true crime podcast that I devoured while I was in New Zealand.
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So did a lot of other people.
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The series was downloaded 10 million times within six weeks of release.
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That podcast was then turned into a true crime TV show.
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So she s been portrayed by an actor in a true crime show.
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And now, nearly seven years later, she hosts her own true crime podcast.
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In all of this, it s almost easy to forget one of the main things about her.
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She experienced crime firsthand.
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She literally experienced true crime.
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So yeah, of course I wanted to talk to her.
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You have beautiful dogs here, by the way.
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Who is this?
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This is Dixon.
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I m meeting Tara Newell at a bar in the valley in Los Angeles.
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Dixon is her dog, a miniature Australian Shepherd, who s currently straining on his collar trying to sniff the buttholes of some other dogs that are here.
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Dixon right now has seen some other dogs going into a very dog-friendly bar, and Dixon, like any dog, gets excited when he sees other dogs.
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Yes, no, he likes to let them know that he s here and also protect me.
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That protect me line might sound like a throwaway, but to Terra, it s not.
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Back in 2016, she was attacked by a conman called John Meehan.
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He was trying to abduct her on the rooftop parking lot of her apartment building.
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She managed to get away, thanks in part to her dog at the time, Cash, who put up his own fight, barking and biting at John s ankles while he attacked her with a knife.
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Terra won that fight, but not due to any martial arts training.
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I m quoting now from Christopher Goffard, who made a podcast about her attacker called Dirty John.
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Terra had no martial arts background except for a long-ago self-defense class in PE.
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She did, however, study television violence with an uncommon intensity.
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In The Walking Dead, she absorbed the first axiom of combat was zombies.
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They ll keep trying to kill you until you destroy the head by blade or screwdriver, machete or gun.
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She regarded the show as a source of survival tricks.
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When a favourite character extricated himself from a bad spot by biting into an attacker s jugular, she thought, my teeth are a weapon.
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More than technique, she said, she took a certain mindset from the show.
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Kill or be killed.
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Terra walked away that day thanks to the Walking Dead, her own tenacity and her dog Cash.
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Cash has since passed away and Dixon is her new loyal companion, Dixon named after Norman Reedus  character Daryl Dixon in The Walking Dead.
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This whole story is told in episode 5 of the Dirty John podcast which came out in 2017, the story of a conman who latched onto Tara s mother and the chaos that ensued.
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When released, the show spent three weeks at the top of the podcast charts.
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What was the most unexpected aspect of having your story told?
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how many people it got across to.
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I wasn t aware that it was going to be so big.
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I honestly was told that The Walking Dead may hit me up and that s really what I was hoping for.
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And there was a few people that reached out from that but not the production.
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So I was thankful for those reach outs and
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It s very crazy because you become this pseudo-celeb in a sense and that s terminology that is called when your story becomes public for a certain amount of time and you re thrown out there.
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So being called a celebrity is really interesting even if it s a pseudo-celebrity.
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Tara knows about being a celebrity, or in her words, a pseudo-celebrity, because Dirty John made her one.
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Later today at this bar, she s taking part in a true crime meet-up, where fans will come and meet their hero.
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How do you find meeting people that know your story really intimately and know your work?
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What is that like?
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Because fans bring a certain energy to things and I m curious what that relationship has been like for you.
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It s really crazy to meet so many people out there that have listened and absorbed the story.
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And it s really great because my story is so extreme, where theirs may not be as extreme, but they re definitely able to relate to me on the aspect of the toxic relationship and domestic violence aspect.
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I think that it s really important to know that these people are in plain sight.
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And they re someone that can con anyone.
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And it s really interesting when I was in New Zealand, it was at the start of all of that in trying to figure out who this person was, even with John.
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She s bringing up New Zealand because that s where we had first met, back in 2018.
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I knew she was there because she was a pseudo-celeb.
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I d become captivated by her story, followed her on Instagram, and noticed she was in the country.
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At the time, I was dealing with a con man of my own for a documentary I was making called Mr. Organ.
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I reached out to her for some perspective, and she was really helpful.
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In the years since, we ve kept in touch.
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The true crime genre continuing to explode.
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Even since your story, there s just so much of it.
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It s this genre half of Netflix.
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is true crime.
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Can you tell me a little bit about what the scene is like at the moment here in 2024?
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It s a very convoluted scene right now because there s so much content out there.
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And I think right now is the time where we re really switching from the perpetrators becoming the forefront of the stories from now it being survivors.
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And you see that with Voices for Justice with Sarah Turney.
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You see that with media pressure with Julie Marie talking about her sister, Maura Marie.
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And it s really the time to kind of switch.
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She s right.
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There is a shift in true crime, where writers, directors and producers are perhaps realizing that victims should take more of the center stage in these stories.
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Instead of glorifying the killers, the lens is turned towards those that were affected.
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There s a great example of this in a recent HBO true crime doc series, Last Call, when a serial killer stalked queer New York.
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It s in all of us, that fear,
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of being hurt because we re queer.
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It s a move away from what we saw in the likes of the recent Dharma documentary and narrative series where the killer was the main focus.
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That show has become a big part of the debate over the future of true crime, especially when it came to how family members of Dharma s victims were portrayed.
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With the Dahmer series, we had Rita Isabel on the Survivor Squad, my current podcast, and she talks about how she just saw one day on Netflix that her story was coming out, and they used her exact footage from the court, from her wanting to try to reach over and try to kill Dahmer on the stand.
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Side by side, it looks exactly the same, but this person doesn t get compensated for their story.
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This person doesn t get consulted.
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Compensation and payment is a whole other debate.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s this line of thinking that no one being interviewed in a true crime podcast or documentary should be paid for it, that it would create bias.
2
SPEAKER_00
It could mean people on camera are just saying certain things because of the money.
2
SPEAKER_00
But is this just another case of the victim being done over, yet again?
2
SPEAKER_00
The creators of the series, whether they re works of journalism or slightly fictionalised retellings, walking away with millions, while the victims are just left with the trauma.
2
SPEAKER_03
Ryan Murphy, I believe he was a $30 million deal or something for five years and not to mention residuals from those projects as well.
2
SPEAKER_03
So it s really hard when that person is saying, and I ve gone to places like this too, but self-harm.
2
SPEAKER_03
wanting to not be here because your story s so out there.
2
SPEAKER_03
You have this trauma you don t know how to deal with, but yet this person is living large, going on vacation, putting their kids in college.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s a bit hard to see that happen.
2
SPEAKER_00
Do you think there s enough safety nets protecting people that are in these true crime spaces, these documentaries?
2
SPEAKER_00
Do you feel, in talking to the people you ve talked to, are people being protected by these production companies that are making this stuff?
2
SPEAKER_03
Not at all.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because I guess there s two sides to it, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
People are like true crime is exploitative and it s too much and the other side is like this is giving people a voice.
2
SPEAKER_00
Where do you sit on the scene at the moment?
2
SPEAKER_00
Because there s also so many different approaches to these stories as well.
2
SPEAKER_03
I really like in the UK, there s a set of rules that they go off of documentaries for the survivors.
2
SPEAKER_03
They bring a mental health advocate for the survivors.
2
SPEAKER_03
And here in the US, that s not really a thing.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s the Wild West.
2
SPEAKER_03
Oh, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_03
There s no guidelines.
2
SPEAKER_03
There s not a set of rules that we go off of.
2
SPEAKER_03
It s just, OK, you want to interview Casey Anthony, you want her story out there.
2
SPEAKER_03
OK, get it.
2
SPEAKER_03
And it s really unfortunate because
2
SPEAKER_03
With that case, it s so, in my opinion, in plain sight, wrong.
2
SPEAKER_03
However, you re giving this person a platform and letting them speak.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right now, Tara says she s trying to take some of that power back.
2
SPEAKER_00
She s had her story told in the podcast Dirty John, and then that podcast was turned into that TV series in 2019.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now she has her own podcast about the true crime genre called The Survivor Squad, and it s her voice.
2
SPEAKER_03
So I m able to bond with them on the certain level of relationships and that aspect even.
2
SPEAKER_00
As the name suggests, she talks to other survivors.
2
SPEAKER_00
Survivors of the crime and of the true crime genre.
2
SPEAKER_03
You really don t have control of your own story when it gets out there in the media.
2
SPEAKER_03
But what I m doing now is trying to regain control, trying to help survivors know, OK, so if they do a podcast and they don t sign anything, they could take that and make money off of it, no problem.
2
SPEAKER_03
Same with a TV series.
2
SPEAKER_03
They could take that from the podcast and use that information because that becomes public record.
2
SPEAKER_00
Any advice to people when they re being drawn into these worlds where people are telling their story?
2
SPEAKER_03
Know your worth.
2
SPEAKER_03
Know that you can fight for anything.
2
SPEAKER_03
You can try to get in contact with any production company, any producer, any director.
2
SPEAKER_03
Just keep reaching out and making noise because if you keep doing that, you will make a difference.
2
SPEAKER_00
Talking to Tara, I get the feeling she s used to talking about her story, the attack, and what happened to her and her family.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that maybe in some way, all this talking has been a sort of therapy.
2
SPEAKER_00
But then I remember the story in Dirty John.
2
SPEAKER_00
How crazy it was, how dark, all that she went through.
2
SPEAKER_00
And how she still has people like me coming to talk to her about it.
2
SPEAKER_00
What do you do to stay sane and light out of the heaviness of some of this stuff?
2
SPEAKER_00
What s your happy place to go to?
2
SPEAKER_03
I watch yoga and then I watch Sweet Home Alabama on repeat.
2
SPEAKER_00
As we ve been talking, a small crowd started to gather inside the bar.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s time for me to leave Tara to go and do her thing.
2
SPEAKER_00
To share her story again.
2
SPEAKER_00
Part of me worries about her having to keep dealing with this.
2
SPEAKER_00
Then I see Dixon by her side.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I remember what she did.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I remember that she s about a thousand times tougher than me.
2
SPEAKER_00
And she ll be just fine.
2
SPEAKER_00
She is tough as nails.
2
SPEAKER_00
I kind of wish I could talk more about what she actually did, but if people haven t listened to Dirty John or watched it, I kind of don t want to spoil it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Which again is a weird thing True Crime does because I m talking about something that s been in the news and yet I m sitting here thinking, I don t want to give spoilers.
2
SPEAKER_02
A spoiler like it s a movie.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, like it s a movie, but I don t because the storytelling is so good.
2
SPEAKER_00
Do you know what I mean?
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I do know what you mean.
2
SPEAKER_02
That s inherent in this problem.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s this really crazy bubble that exists with so many interesting issues around it.
2
SPEAKER_00
I haven t decided where I sit on so many of these things.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s really complicated.
2
SPEAKER_01
So she was involved in the podcast.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, she was interviewed.
2
SPEAKER_00
She was interviewed.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it was a series of articles.
2
SPEAKER_00
Then it was a podcast.
2
SPEAKER_00
She was a part of that.
2
SPEAKER_00
She had no idea where it would suddenly be sitting.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, she s happy with the podcast.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think elements of her, I get the feeling she wishes she was more involved, maybe.
2
SPEAKER_00
But then that s the nature of telling a story to a journalist, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
If you re telling someone s story and everyone you talk to is heavily involved in the production, you d never get anything made.
2
SPEAKER_02
You can t.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, you can t.
2
SPEAKER_02
So, OK, but then once the podcast was made, she
2
SPEAKER_02
agreed to be a part of?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, no, she s into it.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think she s just in hindsight, she s looking at it going, what am I left with now?
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, I ve got this story out there.
2
SPEAKER_00
What do I do?
2
SPEAKER_02
Does she have anything to do with the show at all?
2
SPEAKER_00
That s a really good question.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t know.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think that basically the rights for that podcast would have been sold.
2
SPEAKER_02
And having nothing to do with her.
2
SPEAKER_02
They wouldn t have had to ask her.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like, that s also a bizarre thing that all of a sudden your life can be commodified and you have nothing to do with it.
2
SPEAKER_02
it seems wrong and should be illegal on face value.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, there s something about it feels a bit off, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I think of the Dharma narrative.
2
SPEAKER_00
There was that scene that we talked about where you ve got this Black woman who was in court, one of her loved ones was murdered.
2
SPEAKER_00
And you know, courtroom footage has her lurching over towards Dharma because she s so emotional.
2
SPEAKER_00
Imagine being her, she s sitting on her couch, she s flicking through Netflix.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like, oh, they made a drama about that awful killer that killed my loved one.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re watching, not only is it about your loved one being killed, but then there is an actor playing you, recreating you lunging at Dharma.
2
SPEAKER_02
And are they changing the names?
2
SPEAKER_00
This doesn t even feel... No, it s all on because it s all news.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s all in the public.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that s pretty much up for grabs.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I think that s where you can see why they get pretty hurt and annoyed by that.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s just odd because there are rules around certain things.
2
SPEAKER_02
Can you do a movie off of someone s memoir and not include them?
2
SPEAKER_00
These are actually really good questions around the legalities of that.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, you have to buy the rights to certain things.
2
SPEAKER_02
Exactly.
2
SPEAKER_00
But then I think if you have made a podcast and you have got people s permission to take part in that podcast, you own all the IP for that story and then that can be put on elsewhere.
2
SPEAKER_00
And when you re being interviewed for some little podcast, you re not thinking, oh, I wonder if this will explode and then be sold to Netflix, right?
2
SPEAKER_02
What if a show gets made about
3
SPEAKER_00
about Flightless Bird, and there s an actor playing the adult Disney woman, and then she s like, fuck.
3
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, and what if they make a true crime show about Flightless Bird, and they cast us as the actors, and the person playing me is some deranged, awful person?
3
SPEAKER_00
But we own that IP, so they would have to buy it from us, to be fair.
3
SPEAKER_03
They would have to approach us.
3
SPEAKER_03
We re in America, we d sue.
3
SPEAKER_00
Exactly, exactly.
3
SPEAKER_03
We d take them for everything.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I can t wait for that to happen, actually.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, if you re thinking about it, please.
3
SPEAKER_03
Oh my God.
3
SPEAKER_03
I think it s all interesting things to think about when you re watching and enjoying these true crime shows, is thinking about the people in them.
3
SPEAKER_03
Have they been consulted?
3
SPEAKER_03
Would they like their portrayal?
3
SPEAKER_03
Is there a difference when something s dramatized versus just straight documentary?
3
SPEAKER_03
I get wound up watching a lot of true crime docs where like the music is ratcheted up to 10, because you re like, don t tell me how to feel about this thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
I know, but that s also storytelling.
3
SPEAKER_03
It is storytelling.
3
SPEAKER_00
And docs are stories, like that s the point.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, totally.
3
SPEAKER_03
It s something I saw Michael Moore give a talk, The Bowling for Columbine, DocMaker, and he said something about documentary.
3
SPEAKER_03
And he just made this really clear point this way, stuck with me, that documentaries, they re films.
3
SPEAKER_03
They re not this other genre.
3
SPEAKER_02
They re not news.
3
SPEAKER_03
No, they re films.
3
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_03
And they have all the same techniques to make them pop that a narrative has with music and pacing and editing and sound and color and all that stuff.
3
SPEAKER_00
What s the best true crime doc?
3
SPEAKER_00
What s your favorite?
3
SPEAKER_03
Well, look, I ve actually, I ve made a little top 10 of my docs, but they re not in order, but I sort of wanted to go through them and just quickly give them a shout out because these are my favorites.
3
SPEAKER_03
Okay.
3
SPEAKER_03
None of them are perfect, but I think they do really interesting things.
3
SPEAKER_03
And the first one is a doc called Dear Zachary.
3
SPEAKER_03
Which is, I think, on your list on the Armchair website, right?
3
SPEAKER_03
It s Dax s favorite docs.
3
SPEAKER_03
I feel like he s talked about it.
3
SPEAKER_03
Have you watched it or just heard about it?
3
SPEAKER_00
I think I ve just heard.
3
SPEAKER_00
Wait, can you remind me?
3
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, so look, I ve gone through IMDb because I always muck up my recollection of everything.
3
SPEAKER_03
So this is the synopsis for Dear Zachary.
3
SPEAKER_03
A filmmaker decides to memorialize a murdered friend when his friend s ex-girlfriend announces she s expecting his son.
3
SPEAKER_03
And so basically this documentary maker, he s not even a doc maker, he just picks up a camera and starts filming.
3
SPEAKER_03
His best friend is murdered.
3
SPEAKER_00
The documentarian s best friend is murdered.
3
SPEAKER_03
So he starts thinking, I m very curious about this because his ex was involved.
3
SPEAKER_03
And as he s making the documentary, really bad stuff happens and it s
3
SPEAKER_03
So deeply personal.
3
SPEAKER_03
It s the least objective documentary you ll ever see because it s all someone very emotively trying to discover why his best friend was killed.
3
SPEAKER_03
And what unfolds, a child s born during the making of the doc.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I just got chills.
3
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, some stuff happens.
3
SPEAKER_03
This is just a little bit of the trailer of Dear Zachary.
3
SPEAKER_03
It was from 2008.
3
SPEAKER_03
And also for anyone wanting to know where to watch these, because people are watching and listening in all different countries, just Google it.
3
SPEAKER_03
Like, no, the frustrating thing is like, if you say like- Was that necessary for you to say?
3
SPEAKER_02
No, no, honestly, if you like- Okay, I m so aggressive.
3
SPEAKER_03
No, no, but if like, if anything s out, it s out on Netflix, Netflix America might have a thing, Netflix Iceland won t have it.
3
SPEAKER_03
I see filmmakers releasing things all the time, especially docs, and everyone s like, where is it?
3
SPEAKER_03
It depends where you are in the world, because it s carved up.
3
SPEAKER_03
But if you Google the documentary name, Google tells you.
3
SPEAKER_00
You ll find it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
3
SPEAKER_03
It s really good.
3
SPEAKER_00
All right, let s hear the trailer.
3
SPEAKER_00
I didn t have to get killed.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m an only child, and I ll get around to why this is of any importance whatsoever.
3
SPEAKER_01
When I had to say, was my son murdered?
3
SPEAKER_01
And take that into your soul.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then to know how cold-bloodedly he was murdered.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh my god!
3
SPEAKER_03
Now, but Dear Zachary is... Have you seen it, Rob?
3
SPEAKER_03
No, I have not.
3
SPEAKER_03
I watched it in a cinema at a film festival in New Zealand.
3
SPEAKER_03
Pretty much the whole cinema was just crying the whole time.
3
SPEAKER_03
Really?
3
SPEAKER_03
It s rough.
3
SPEAKER_03
So with all these things, take care when you watch them.
3
SPEAKER_00
This is awful, David.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay, Blackfish.
3
SPEAKER_03
Blackfish and the cove are the two ones I want to talk about next.
3
SPEAKER_03
And I think you mentioned this weeks ago on Armchair about the blackfish stock in regards to zoos.
3
SPEAKER_03
In SeaWorld, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_03
Blackfish was made in 2013.
3
SPEAKER_03
It was about the treatment of animals at SeaWorld.
3
SPEAKER_03
And I would bookend it with the cove from 2009, which is about the fishing of dolphins in Japan.
3
SPEAKER_03
And that was super intense.
3
SPEAKER_00
Even though I claimed I didn t think dolphins were actually cute, that it s just in our zeitgeist.
3
SPEAKER_02
So in New Zealand, I loved your argument.
3
SPEAKER_02
I love that you re taking on dogs.
3
SPEAKER_02
You re like, fuck dogs.
3
SPEAKER_02
And now you re taking on dolphins?
3
SPEAKER_00
It s the best.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, I like dolphins, but they are predators.
3
SPEAKER_00
We ve talked about it.
3
SPEAKER_00
They re horny.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
They ll attack.
3
SPEAKER_00
They ll rape.
3
SPEAKER_03
Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird.
3
SPEAKER_03
We ll be right back after a word from our sponsors.
3
SPEAKER_03
Flightless Bird is sponsored by BetterHelp.
3
SPEAKER_03
Now, Monica Badman, how is your social battery right now?
3
SPEAKER_03
If it s a little iPhone percentage, is it 100%?
3
SPEAKER_03
Is it yellow and critical?
3
SPEAKER_03
Is it in the middle?
3
SPEAKER_00
78%.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m pretty good right now.
3
SPEAKER_03
I ve been low.
3
SPEAKER_03
Cold weather.
3
SPEAKER_03
I don t feel like going out.
3
SPEAKER_03
I ordered two new Lego sets.
3
SPEAKER_03
I m just at home building Lego.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s how critical things are.
3
SPEAKER_00
But that s good.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s good to recharge.
3
SPEAKER_00
I was feeling so low battery.
3
SPEAKER_00
But then I had therapy and I talked a bunch of stuff out and I have it again tomorrow and I m excited.
3
SPEAKER_00
I already have like a list of things I need to talk to her about.
3
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, cool.
3
SPEAKER_03
It can be easy to like ignore that social battery and you can just end up feeling a bit slumpy at different times of the year and therapy can be a good fix.
3
SPEAKER_00
It can.
3
SPEAKER_03
It can also just give yourself awareness to build a social life that doesn t drain your battery.
3
SPEAKER_03
Like maybe you re living a social life in a way that doesn t make sense to you and there might be smarter ways to do it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s often so helpful to have a third person who can see it.
3
SPEAKER_03
And as good as building Lego is, you do sometimes need to leave the house and see other humans, because it s a part of being a human being.
3
SPEAKER_03
I m still, in my therapy, sorting out boundary things.
3
SPEAKER_03
I think I m getting better, but I still cave to things and I say yes to things and I should say no.
3
SPEAKER_03
So yeah, find your social sweet spot with BetterHelp.
3
SPEAKER_03
Visit betterhelp.com slash bird today to get 10% off your first month.
3
SPEAKER_03
That s betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash bird.
3
SPEAKER_03
We have a very popular children s book in New Zealand called Opo, the Friendly Dolphin, and it was about New Zealand s friendliest dolphin.
3
SPEAKER_03
And you go to a certain beach in New Zealand and Opo would just be there swimming in the shallows.
3
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
3
SPEAKER_03
It d be your nightmare.
3
SPEAKER_03
You d probably kill it and knock him on the head.
3
SPEAKER_00
No, they re fine.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay, hold on.
3
SPEAKER_00
We have to be really clear.
3
SPEAKER_00
We have to stop this whole thing.
3
SPEAKER_03
You re watching the code.
3
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, kill those dolphins.
3
SPEAKER_00
No, I don t want them to be dead.
3
SPEAKER_00
I like them.
3
SPEAKER_00
I just like to be objective about, we all think they re so cute.
3
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, culturally, we are being told.
3
SPEAKER_00
That they re cute.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I don t think things that aren t cute should be killed.
3
SPEAKER_00
You can be ugly and you should live.
3
SPEAKER_00
But I just- That s one of the best things you ve said.
3
SPEAKER_03
You know, I, look, I see your point.
3
SPEAKER_03
I think there are cuter animals than the dolphin.
3
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, but they re great.
3
SPEAKER_03
These are both really good docs.
3
SPEAKER_03
Blackfish and the Cove do a double hit, quite intense.
3
SPEAKER_03
Here s a little trailer from Blackfish, which is probably my favorite of the two.
3
SPEAKER_02
When Tilikum arrived at SeaWorld, he was twice as large as the next animal.
3
SPEAKER_00
We stored these whales in what we call a module, which was 20 feet across and 30 feet deep.
3
SPEAKER_03
And the lights were all turned out.
3
SPEAKER_03
Probably led to what I think is a psychosis.
3
SPEAKER_00
All whales in captivity are all psychologically traumatized.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s not just telecom.
3
SPEAKER_00
If you were in a bathtub for 25 years, don t you think you d get a little psychotic?
3
SPEAKER_03
Oh my god.
3
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, true.
3
SPEAKER_03
I actually love the bathtub, but not for 25 years.
3
SPEAKER_03
I think Blackfish is a great example of how documentaries can create real life change.
3
SPEAKER_03
Sea world profits dropped 84% after the film was released.
3
SPEAKER_03
And that s a pretty amazing result.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s shut down, right?
3
SPEAKER_03
SeaWorld s still going.
3
SPEAKER_03
Oh, it is?
3
SPEAKER_03
SeaWorld s still doing its thing, and they still have captive orcas.
3
SPEAKER_03
People still go to SeaWorld, but they have really suffered from this because, yeah, it s stupid to keep these big fish in captivity.
3
SPEAKER_03
Well, mammals, not fish.
3
SPEAKER_00
God, I m impressed by America that people took that to heart and not just one side of the political spectrum took that to heart.
3
SPEAKER_00
It sounds like a lot of people did.
3
SPEAKER_03
I think just the whole bathtub analogy and just going like, we probably shouldn t be keeping these things.
3
SPEAKER_03
I don t want to be in a bath for that long.
3
SPEAKER_03
You just don t think about it.
3
SPEAKER_03
Before watching Blackfish, I didn t think about how these animals, you look at a big tank, you re like, oh, that s a lot of water.
3
SPEAKER_03
It can like swim around.
3
SPEAKER_03
Horrific.
3
SPEAKER_00
I know.
3
SPEAKER_03
I didn t clock it until I saw it.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m glad that that analogy hit home for people.
3
SPEAKER_00
whatever works, but it s not a very good analogy because we aren t meant to be in water at all times.
3
SPEAKER_00
So it doesn t really make sense.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s true.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s true.
3
SPEAKER_00
Whales do exist in water.
3
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, that is an advantage they have.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s more like she should say, would we like to be living in a closet for 25 years?
4
SPEAKER_02
In a closet.
4
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, no, this is true.
4
SPEAKER_02
I m happy with the way I have revised that.
4
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, it created a big change.
4
SPEAKER_03
So, Blackfish, big fan.
4
SPEAKER_03
Have you seen it?
4
SPEAKER_02
No.
4
SPEAKER_03
You should watch it.
4
SPEAKER_03
Do Blackfish.
4
SPEAKER_02
I have a lot to watch.
4
SPEAKER_03
Okay, The Jinx.
4
SPEAKER_03
This is one of your faves.
4
2015.
4
SPEAKER_02
You loved it too?
4
SPEAKER_03
I loved it.
4
SPEAKER_03
I think The Jinx is one of the best true crime docs ever made.
4
SPEAKER_03
Andrew Jurecki made it.
4
SPEAKER_03
Again, from the synopsis, Jurecki examines the complicated life of reclusive real estate icon Robert Durst, the key suspect in a series of unsolved crimes.
4
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God, it s good.
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SPEAKER_03
What this doc did really well is it used recreations incredibly well.
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It was one of the first series that used these incredibly slick.
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I mean, people have been doing recreations since, you know, Errol Morris started, but these are slick.
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I agree, because I hate reenactments.
4
SPEAKER_03
Same.
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Remember like the old true crime shows when you were kids?
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Unsolved Mysteries?
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Unsolved Mysteries.
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Everything s in shadow and really cheesy.
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I think the jinx made people realize that this is a really legitimate form of storytelling.
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SPEAKER_03
Plus, you had your central character, Duris, burping when you re like nervous.
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SPEAKER_02
Anytime a doc has real time change, as it s developing over time, the documentarians are having to adjust because new things are happening and the person at the center is- That s a really good point because that s another thing this does so well.
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It s got these really slick recreations, but then what it does in the final episode is it pivots and it shifts as it shifts into real time.
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Suddenly you re in the interview with the crew.
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You re seeing how it s all being set up.
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And again, I don t want to spoil things, but there s an incredible moment.
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It s fucked documentary making in a way because it has the perfect ending.
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Perfect.
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And I think people, when they watch a documentary, they want a Hollywood ending.
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I know.
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They don t get it.
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The jinx gave it to them.
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Yes.
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And now we expect it and we want it.
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It s like, they did it.
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Why can t you?
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The ending of The Jinx, the central character is wearing a mic, goes into the bathroom at the end, starts mumbling under his breath, and it s all captured, and it s kind of remarkable.
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SPEAKER_02
God, it s so good.
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SPEAKER_02
It s so good.
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Again, some ethical issues, the way that audio at the end was edited.
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It was edited in a way that slightly changed the impact of it, which is a really interesting thing to read up on after you ve watched it.
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I also read an interesting bit of trivia.
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Robert Durst used doe-eyed contact lenses during the filming of the doc to make him appear like a baby deer.
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Whoa.
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Some context just made his eyes a bit more doe, a bit more like, oh.
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Like you care about him a little bit.
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Like you care about him.
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And you do, actually.
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Like, he s a weird character in that even early on, you re kind of like, yeah, I think he s murdered.
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It seems like he s murdered.
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SPEAKER_03
It seems very clear.
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But his eyes are, I m actually going to order some doe-eyed context.
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Oh, no, no, no.
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So I m a bit more innocent as I sit across from you.
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That s so creepy that you d have to change your eyes.
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To appear likeable.
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To disagree and I m just like... Oh god.
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Okay, this is a little bit of the jinx.
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She talked on the telephone with her husband, then she vanished and no one has seen Kathleen Durst since.
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Durst was wanted for murder in Texas.
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He s a suspect for murders in Los Angeles and Westchester County, New York.
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He belongs to one of the richest families in New York City.
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Might be a little eccentric.
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I think Bob is very smart.
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I mean, he s managed to get away with three murders.
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Sorry, I don t mean to laugh.
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I know.
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It s a crazy laugh.
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It is a sign of intelligence.
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Yeah.
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No, I mean, it s a remarkable series.
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If you haven t seen The Jinx, Google it, watch it.
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It s great.
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I wanted to highlight a number for The Staircase.
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Brilliant miniseries.
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Originally, it s a French co-production.
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It came out in 2004, but then Netflix made it big when it came to Netflix in 2018.
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This is a little bit of the trailer for The Staircase.
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Just talking and finishing our drinks.
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And then she said, I got to go in because I ve got the conference call in the morning.
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And she started walking out that way.
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And I stayed right here.
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Don t think I say anything special to her.
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Certainly not thinking this is the last time I m going to see her.
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I said, good night.
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I ll be up a little bit later.
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And I stayed here.
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And she walked.
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And the last I saw her was when I was there.
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And she was just walking here.
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That s it.
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That was the last I saw Kathleen alive.
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No.
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She was alive when I found her.
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but barely.
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I know.
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I know.
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This, the staircase, to me, is the actual first true crime piece of media that hit the mainstream.
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I m with you.
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This, I think, is the actual turning point.
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Even though I want to give props to Serial, I do think it s the staircase.
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Staircase is remarkable.
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Like, when I made Tickled, I had no idea what I was doing because I d never made a doc before.
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And my producer, Cathy Neal, told me, you must watch the staircase.
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And that kind of started my interest in the genre in a way.
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And yeah, the staircase is brilliant because you are embedded with
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This man, that was Michael Peterson talking in that trailer.
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He has a certain distinct way of talking.
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His wife goes inside.
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He s also very likable.
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He s so, he s fun.
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He s like a mystery sort of horror writer.
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Yeah.
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He s got daughters.
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He goes inside, his wife is at the bottom of the stairs and the entire basically series is trying to discover how did she come to be at the bottom of these stairs?
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She fell down the stairs.
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There is so much blood, it doesn t seem natural for someone that has fallen down one flight of stairs.
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Amazing reveals in the documentary, like his previous wife was also found at the bottom of some stairs.
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And again, so I don t mean to laugh, this is the fucked up thing that true crime does.
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These are real lives, and yet it s so part of the culture.
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I ve watched the series, I ve re-watched, I ve watched the specials, I ve watched the drama,
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And so it feels so part of pop culture.
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That s why it s easy to laugh at these things because it s so... But also, okay, to be fair to us and the world, tragedy is funny in some ways.
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There s always something that you re like, what the fuck?
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And in this case, it s that, right?
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It s like Shakespeare nailed down to, right?
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It s like, it s this, what the fuck?
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This is crazy.
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Life has both happening all at once.
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And when you see it in a story, it s very apparent, right?
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Where it s like, oh my God, the same thing, same with Robert Durst.
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There was multiple murders in that story where it s like, wait, he already did that.
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We ve watched so much fiction and so much made up storytelling as writers try and surprise us, but nothing can be more surprising than the stuff that s happened in reality, right?
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And yet The Staircase, if you can hunt down the original series, it s very long.
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The Netflix series is truncated slightly, but the original French one is so in-depth.
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And the other thing it does, which True Crime doesn t often get to do, you re embedded with his defense team.
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Yeah, I love it.
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And being with his lawyers as they re coming up with how to defend him, it s fucking extraordinary.
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Yes.
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Speaking of, that reminds me of, I wonder if it s on your list, and I had not thought about this in a long time, making a murderer.
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Yeah, making a murderer.
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SPEAKER_03
That s not on my list.
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It s on my honorable mentions of cultural impact because that was huge.
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Huge.
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Stephen Avery, I believe.
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Yes, yes, yes.
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And that was an incredibly well put together story that left a lot of things unturned.
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And I think just, yeah.
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And about our justice system too.
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I think that s what hit home the most for me about that whole story is, oh my God,
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The justice system is so fucked.
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Which is, I think, why we re drawn to this stuff as well, because I ve never been put on trial for something.
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But it s like, you re always fascinated by... I ve got something to tell you.
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You do think, how would I fare if I was drawn into the system?
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Would it treat me fairly?
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Obviously, a lot of people are not treated fairly by the American justice system.
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It s terrifying.
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And so we have a vested interest in it, because in the back of our minds, I m thinking, could this be me?
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Could this be a loved one at some point?
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If Monica murders someone, how will that go down?
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Oh, my God.
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Would you throw me under the bus?
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SPEAKER_03
I was talking with Rosabelle about this the other day.
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Okay.
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SPEAKER_03
And I think you and Liz talked about this on Sync as well.
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We did.
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SPEAKER_03
Look, it depends your intent with the murder.
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Yeah.
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SPEAKER_03
I tend to help friends, but then if you had- If I was a menace to society?
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SPEAKER_03
Yeah, would you do it again?
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SPEAKER_03
Right.
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SPEAKER_03
You know, it s would you do it again?
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SPEAKER_03
What was your intent to kill this person?
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SPEAKER_03
I would take the other person into account in different ways.
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SPEAKER_03
Okay, okay.
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But no, I m not saying that I would- You d see both sides.
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SPEAKER_03
It would be awkward though.
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SPEAKER_03
I know.
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SPEAKER_03
I have a recurring dream where I wake up and I ve done a hideous crime, like a murder.
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SPEAKER_02
Really?
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SPEAKER_03
And I wake up in absolute panic of guilt.
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SPEAKER_03
I feel the guilt.
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and think, oh no, another day of living with this thing I ve done that no one knows about.
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SPEAKER_01
What does that mean?
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David.
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Can I talk to my therapist about that?
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That s dark, yeah.
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SPEAKER_02
I think it means you are living with some sort of guilt about something.
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Obviously not, I don t think, that you ve murdered.
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To be clear, I haven t murdered.
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Or if I did, I don t remember.
5
SPEAKER_02
Right, either you blocked out a murder or you haven t murdered.
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SPEAKER_02
But you have guilt.
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SPEAKER_02
I think, I mean, since I m your therapist now, this is religious based.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
That s actually what my actual therapist actually says.
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SPEAKER_01
No, really.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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Religion gives you a lot of guilt.
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SPEAKER_02
When you re indoctrinated in the way you were, guilt is going to be in your life for a long time.
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And you have to work on shutting that because you didn t do anything.
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SPEAKER_01
I genuinely hadn t really made the connection with that guilt dream, but I was just like, there s that horrible dream again about how I d done something awful and I m like living with it.
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Well, they make you feel that if you leave the church or if you abandon Jesus, it s akin to murder.
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The worst thing.
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Yeah, totally.
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It s the worst thing you can do.
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And you ve done that.
5
Oh God.
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SPEAKER_02
But it s good.
5
SPEAKER_02
It is good.
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SPEAKER_01
It s good.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s good murder.
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One bit of trivia about The Staircase that I really like.
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I m going to read this out.
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Film editor Sophie Brunette had a 15-year relationship with the subject of The Staircase, Michael Peterson, lasting from 2002 until 2017.
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The director claims her involvement never influenced her editing.
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Yeah, right!
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Oh my god.
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I love that fact.
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So yeah, when you re watching The Staircase, remember it s being edited by the person that is fucking.
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Who s in love with him.
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The guy that s potentially the killer.
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Wowie.
5
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Love that.
5
SPEAKER_02
I love that.
5
SPEAKER_01
And if you re a documentary editor, the director isn t there by your side directing everything.
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An editor of a doc is almost as much of a director as the director.
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Yeah, oh for sure.
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SPEAKER_01
They re in there making decisions, right?
5
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Huge, yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
So it s like, you cut shit.
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It s like, you re in there making these calls.
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You make the whole, you decide what s coming.
5
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What is gonna come to the listener.
5
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So I find that fact, chef s kiss fact.
5
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Wait a minute, do you think you re the type of person who could fall in love with a prisoner?
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Because I think this is similar.
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SPEAKER_01
You know, I am.
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SPEAKER_01
I m attracted to people who, I hate to admit it, but I like to think I m a bit edgy.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, I don t like to be attracted to like the regular things.
5
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And so I think someone in prison.
5
SPEAKER_02
That s also your religious thing, by the way.
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SPEAKER_01
Get out of my fucking head.
5
SPEAKER_02
That is true.
5
SPEAKER_01
So yeah, I think potentially, again, it depends what I did.
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SPEAKER_01
I m also avoidant.
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SPEAKER_01
Right.
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SPEAKER_01
And so having someone in prison would be heaven.
5
SPEAKER_02
That s great for you.
5
SPEAKER_01
Because it s a thrill when I get my little conjugal visit.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, but you don t have to see them that often.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m not being bothered by texts.
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SPEAKER_01
I m not being bothered by having to really commit to anything.
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SPEAKER_01
Brilliant.
5
SPEAKER_01
Actually, I might actively start seeking this out.
5
SPEAKER_02
No, okay.
5
SPEAKER_02
Listen, I, okay.
5
SPEAKER_01
That could be a whole episode.
5
SPEAKER_02
About you doing that?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, me falling in love.
5
SPEAKER_02
We could do a whole series on you falling in love.
5
SPEAKER_01
It can be about the prison system, but instead of taking like a heavy handed look at the prison industrial complex, it s just me trying to find a girlfriend in prison.
5
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Looking at the market.
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Oh my God.
5
SPEAKER_02
Quite problematic.
5
SPEAKER_02
Well, I was sort of falling in love with Ad Nod in Serial.
5
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Charming, right?
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, sweet boy.
5
SPEAKER_02
Sweet boy, I know.
5
SPEAKER_02
Anyway, okay, go on.
5
SPEAKER_01
Last Call, I mentioned this in the documentary, but it s a series on HBO and it is about a serial killer who is stalking gay men in New York.
5
SPEAKER_01
And it s a really good example of the killer not being put up on a pedestal.
5
SPEAKER_01
So you watch anything to do with Jeffrey Dahmer,
5
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including the old Shedding Dangerous we did about Dharma, the center of our attention was Dharma.
5
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Look at this man, look at the shock, look at what he s done.
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I did the same thing in Dark Tourist with him.
5
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What Last Call does is it s all about the victim stories and not glorifying this asshole who was killing people.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
5
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And that s pretty special.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I think in true crime in general, and Tara talked about this a bit, it is something that s starting to happen more and more where directors and producers are aware that, hey, maybe we should be focusing on the victims more and not glorifying the killer.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
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This is a little trailer from that.
5
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Dad went down to New York on a business trip and
5
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Never came home.
5
SPEAKER_00
My brother.
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SPEAKER_00
My uncle.
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SPEAKER_00
My friend.
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SPEAKER_00
He just disappeared.
5
SPEAKER_02
These were pickup crimes.
5
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They were last seen at a gay bar, Five Oaks, the townhouse.
5
SPEAKER_00
Clearly, a serial murderer going after gay men was on the loose.
5
SPEAKER_02
It was so frightening because everyone was a suspect.
5
SPEAKER_02
The queer community was very much trying to push law enforcement to give a shit.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s really good.
5
SPEAKER_01
Last Call, it s on HBO.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s really good.
5
SPEAKER_01
Shout out to The Thin Blue Line at number six.
5
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It s from 88.
5
SPEAKER_01
Errol Morris directed it.
5
SPEAKER_01
Errol Morris is the guy who basically made the recreation a viable thing.
5
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There was a lot of people, when they watch his documentary, they were like, this isn t a doc.
5
SPEAKER_01
You can t do recreation.
5
SPEAKER_01
It just wasn t.
5
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done in the scene.
5
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He did it and it worked really well.
5
SPEAKER_01
The Synopsis, a film that successfully argued that a man was wrongly convicted for a murder by a corrupt justice system in Dallas County, Texas.
5
SPEAKER_01
So you d like it because it s about the system as much as the story.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s really beautiful.
5
SPEAKER_01
And this is a bit of the trailer for that.
5
SPEAKER_00
He said that I would sign it.
5
SPEAKER_00
He didn t give a damn what I said.
5
SPEAKER_00
I would sign this piece of paper he s got.
5
SPEAKER_00
I told him I couldn t.
5
SPEAKER_01
I don t want to say.
5
SPEAKER_02
Oh, false confession genre.
5
SPEAKER_02
Nothing makes me more angry.
5
SPEAKER_01
I tend to agree.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s so frustrating.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s like too much for my brain to handle that people are getting tricked into ending their lives.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, completely.
5
SPEAKER_01
The pressure that can go on in some of those rooms when you have got a cop in front of you
5
SPEAKER_02
And they pick really vulnerable people.
5
SPEAKER_02
They re really smart about who they pick to get a false confession.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
And you re just pressuring young people who have been told you ll be set free if you just say this thing or, you know, just do this thing.
5
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
5
SPEAKER_01
I would do it.
5
SPEAKER_01
You d cave?
5
SPEAKER_01
I think I d be capable of caving as well.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like the pressure if you re being locked away and confronted by like a bunch of cops.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_02
And for a long ass time, we don t really recognize that, that your brain does go into like a different mode.
5
SPEAKER_02
And I think you re just in survival mode.
5
SPEAKER_02
Get me out of here.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, completely.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I know.
5
SPEAKER_01
We all like to think that we will do the right thing, but there s a reason that people don t do the right thing.
5
SPEAKER_01
And it s not because necessarily they re bad people.
5
SPEAKER_01
No.
5
SPEAKER_01
Paradise Lost is at 96, you know this one from Joe Berlinger?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so these were three goth kids, love metal, in America that got blamed for a, I think it was a murder of three children at the time.
5
SPEAKER_01
And basically it was just satanic panic, took over the town.
5
SPEAKER_01
And you know, these kids were sent to prison for this for a very long time.
5
SPEAKER_01
They were eventually vindicated.
5
SPEAKER_01
Damien Eccles, who was spent decades in prison, he s out now.
5
SPEAKER_01
Have you talked to him?
5
SPEAKER_01
I met him very briefly.
5
SPEAKER_01
He was in New Zealand.
5
SPEAKER_01
I bumped into him in a store, which was so weird.
5
SPEAKER_02
What?
5
SPEAKER_02
And you recognized him?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, he s very distinctive.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I followed his story for so long.
5
SPEAKER_01
Peter Jackson actually made his own version of this documentary later on.
5
SPEAKER_01
And he came to New Zealand to do a Q&A.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I remember being in this pack theater.
5
SPEAKER_01
Peter Jackson, you know, made Lord of the Rings.
5
SPEAKER_01
Damien Eccles, this man who had been on death row and had recently gotten out, and it came to question and answer time at the end.
5
SPEAKER_01
And you know how when audiences ask questions, they re sometimes kind of painful?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
This was one of the worst.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s like you had Peter Jackson up there and Damien and people
5
SPEAKER_01
just wanted to do the monologue, so they weren t really questions, they just wanted to share a story.
5
SPEAKER_02
Oh no.
5
SPEAKER_01
It was really painful.
5
SPEAKER_01
Anyway.
5
SPEAKER_02
Did he say anything in that Q&A that stuck with you?
5
SPEAKER_01
To be honest, no, because I don t really remember it.
5
SPEAKER_01
Because most of the questions were just so terrible.
5
SPEAKER_01
But just seeing him up there was powerful.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, here s this guy that was wrongfully convicted just because he listened to a lot of heavy metal.
5
SPEAKER_01
and the town didn t like him.
5
SPEAKER_01
He was on death row, and what death row does to a person s mind fascinates me.
5
SPEAKER_02
I know.
5
SPEAKER_02
I want to know more about that.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s actually, should probably be a Flightless Bird, a death row episode.
5
SPEAKER_01
It is a really interesting thing that America does.
5
SPEAKER_01
Not every state, obviously.
5
SPEAKER_01
Totally.
5
SPEAKER_01
But yeah, for me, there s almost no greater fear or punishment.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s just, to me, horrific.
5
SPEAKER_01
I don t really care.
5
SPEAKER_01
We can get into this in the episode.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, we should do that.
5
SPEAKER_02
We should do that.
5
SPEAKER_02
And maybe you can talk to him.
5
SPEAKER_02
But now I m becoming that person who s like trying to exploit.
5
SPEAKER_01
If we could come to him with a certain way that he could come to the table where he would want to tell something he wanted to tell, that would be a great thing to explore with someone like Damien.
5
SPEAKER_02
Oh, what a.
6
SPEAKER_07
Horrible, horrible experience.
6
SPEAKER_07
Okay, go on.
6
SPEAKER_07
This is just a quick bit from that trailer.
6
SPEAKER_05
In a statement given to the police and obtained by a Memphis newspaper, 17-year-old Jessie Misskelly allegedly confesses to watching two other suspects choke, rape, and sexually mutilate three West Memphis second graders.
6
SPEAKER_05
The murders had been part of a satanic ritual.
6
SPEAKER_06
Satanic worship.
6
SPEAKER_05
A horrific ritualistic sacrifice.
6
SPEAKER_05
We re just sitting on the couch watching TV the night we were arrested.
6
SPEAKER_02
They had to find somebody to pin this on.
6
SPEAKER_02
This club lister was getting out of hand.
6
SPEAKER_04
We the jury find Jesse Lloyd Miss Kelly Jr.
6
SPEAKER_04
guilty of second degree murder.
6
SPEAKER_04
Jason Baldwin guilty of capital murder.
6
SPEAKER_04
Damien Echols guilty of capital murder.
6
SPEAKER_03
This doesn t change anything.
6
SPEAKER_09
Christopher s dead.
6
SPEAKER_09
And he was tortured to death by three murdering bastards on a ditch bike.
6
SPEAKER_09
He was eight years old.
6
SPEAKER_07
Anyway, it turns out they didn t do the murder and they just went to death row for a long time.
6
SPEAKER_07
Also features music by Metallica.
6
SPEAKER_07
Love Metallica, so big behind that.
6
SPEAKER_06
Yeah, that s a great, again, one of the big original docs that sort of transcended time, I think.
6
SPEAKER_07
Totally.
6
SPEAKER_07
If you haven t seen Paradise Lost, big ups.
6
SPEAKER_07
Okay, number eight, Capturing the Freedmen s.
6
SPEAKER_07
This is dark.
6
SPEAKER_07
It s an early film from Andrew Drakey, who did The Jinx.
6
SPEAKER_07
Synopsis, it s a documentary about the Freedmen s, a seemingly typical upper middle-class Jewish family whose world is instantly transformed when the father and his youngest son are arrested and charged with shocking and horrible crimes.
6
SPEAKER_04
Okay.
6
SPEAKER_04
The scenario posted by the media and the police was so incredibly way out,
6
SPEAKER_08
The very nature of these charges is so absurd.
6
SPEAKER_09
It was just generally a free fall.
6
SPEAKER_08
It s almost surreal.
6
SPEAKER_08
I don t think any of us had any notion of what was going on or what we were doing or where any of this was leading.
6
SPEAKER_07
Look, this is probably one of the more intense docks on here.
6
SPEAKER_07
It s pretty dark.
6
SPEAKER_06
Darker than Dear Zachary?
6
SPEAKER_07
I d say it s similar.
6
SPEAKER_07
It s dealing with similar issues.
6
SPEAKER_07
It goes dark, it goes places.
6
SPEAKER_07
And during the making of the film, Arnold, who is accused of these horrific crimes, his eldest son picks up a camcorder and just starts filming the family.
6
SPEAKER_07
And it s just really interesting seeing this family start to fall apart as they come to grips with what they did or didn t do.
6
SPEAKER_07
And there s a question of whether one of the father s sons was involved in the crimes as well.
6
SPEAKER_07
And so it s like watching sort of a hellish take on like the family unit.
6
SPEAKER_07
And it was controversial at the time because Andrew Drakey, the director,
6
SPEAKER_07
Obviously, I m a fan, you know, he made the jinx and a lot of things.
6
SPEAKER_07
I like capturing the Freedmen s a lot as well, but at the time he was very careful to say, I don t have any stakes in this.
6
SPEAKER_07
I don t really have an opinion.
6
SPEAKER_07
What happened?
6
SPEAKER_07
I don t know.
6
SPEAKER_07
And yet after the fact, he went and funded the appeal for one of those who went to prison.
6
SPEAKER_07
So he was very deeply involved in what he thought happened, but didn t get that across in the documentary, which is just an interesting take to kind of hide that view.
6
SPEAKER_06
God, but how can you not get invested?
6
SPEAKER_06
It s impossible.
6
SPEAKER_07
Yeah, and it is that thing of, there s this discussion, you know, journalism should be objective.
6
SPEAKER_07
And sure, it should, but also nothing is objective.
6
SPEAKER_06
Nothing is, nothing is.
6
SPEAKER_07
Because we re humans, and if you have a human writing or doing anything, then yeah.
6
SPEAKER_06
I wonder what will happen when AI becomes journalistic.
6
SPEAKER_07
Yeah, which it is.
6
SPEAKER_07
I mean, it s writing shit now.
6
SPEAKER_07
It s terrifying.
6
SPEAKER_07
But yeah, one could argue, is that more objective than a human being writing it?
6
SPEAKER_07
Interesting.
6
SPEAKER_07
When it s also being trained on a lot of humans.
6
SPEAKER_06
It s trained by humans, so probably not.
6
SPEAKER_06
It ll also have the same biases, which is crazy.
6
SPEAKER_06
Okay.
6
SPEAKER_07
Okay.
6
SPEAKER_07
Number nine, The Impostor.
6
SPEAKER_07
Have you seen The Impostor?
6
SPEAKER_06
No.
6
SPEAKER_07
It s from 2012.
6
SPEAKER_07
It s a documentary centered on a young man in Spain who claims to a grieving Texas family that he is their 16-year-old son who s been missing for three years.
6
SPEAKER_06
Wow.
6
SPEAKER_07
So you ve got a family who s had a missing son for three years.
6
SPEAKER_07
Suddenly, the guy turns up, same age.
6
SPEAKER_07
Looks like.
6
SPEAKER_07
Looks quite different.
6
SPEAKER_06
No!
6
SPEAKER_06
No!
6
SPEAKER_06
Oh, these parents!
6
SPEAKER_06
Oh, this is heartbreaking.
6
SPEAKER_07
The imposter and the staircase I both used as motivation for How I Made Tickled.
6
SPEAKER_07
It s just a really great, compelling story, the way it s constructed.
6
SPEAKER_07
It s just the perfect arc of information.
6
SPEAKER_07
It takes you on a journey.
6
SPEAKER_07
God, you ll love this one.
6
SPEAKER_07
Actually, watch the imposter, Monica, out of all these.
6
SPEAKER_07
First.
6
SPEAKER_07
The imposter s the one for you.
6
SPEAKER_06
Okay, but the thing is, it s kind of interesting that the title is a big giveaway, or is it not?
6
SPEAKER_07
Yeah, no, it is a big giveaway.
6
SPEAKER_07
It is a big giveaway.
6
SPEAKER_07
And I think, yeah, the entire time though, the joy of it is you go in thinking this guy s an imposter.
6
SPEAKER_07
As you re watching, you start to second guess some of that stuff.
6
SPEAKER_07
Oh my God.
6
SPEAKER_07
It s really good.
6
SPEAKER_07
Here s a little bit of the trailer.
6
SPEAKER_00
We found a kid here.
6
SPEAKER_00
He s about 14, 15 years old.
6
SPEAKER_09
The thought of what somebody could have done to him, it gives you nightmares.
6
SPEAKER_00
He doesn t have no ID, no documents on him.
6
SPEAKER_00
He s very scared.
6
SPEAKER_00
From as long as I remember, I wanted to be someone else.
6
SPEAKER_01
We had no idea.
6
SPEAKER_01
what kind of person we were getting.
6
SPEAKER_01
He had changed so much.
6
SPEAKER_05
There was just something wrong about it.
6
SPEAKER_01
I ve seen this one.
6
SPEAKER_06
Wow.
6
SPEAKER_06
You ve seen it, Rolf?
6
SPEAKER_07
Yeah, I ve seen this one.
6
SPEAKER_07
It s pretty remarkable, right?
6
SPEAKER_07
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_06
Okay, but this brings up an interesting ethical question, because if you re a parent and your child goes missing for three years, let s be, I mean, this is so harsh and horrible to say, but by the police standards, they re most likely dead.
6
SPEAKER_06
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_06
If you are comforted,
6
SPEAKER_06
by the idea that this kid is back.
6
SPEAKER_07
What s the problem with that?
6
SPEAKER_06
Exactly.
6
SPEAKER_06
If you really start breaking it apart, is it a net positive that the parents actually feel better even though it s all a lie?
6
SPEAKER_07
Yeah, I agree.
6
SPEAKER_07
And I think there s probably worlds where it might be okay.
6
SPEAKER_07
I think you d have to question the motivations of the child that comes back.
6
SPEAKER_07
No, you re going to love this one.
6
SPEAKER_07
It keeps you guessing the whole way.
6
SPEAKER_07
I think you like the idea of people s motivations and why they re doing things.
6
SPEAKER_07
And this is all based around that.
6
SPEAKER_07
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_07
I think you ll like it.
6
SPEAKER_06
I m excited.
6
SPEAKER_06
I m going to report back.
6
SPEAKER_07
The final thing on my list is a podcast.
6
SPEAKER_07
Obviously there s the serials and these shows like that that we ve all listened to.
6
SPEAKER_07
There s also one out of New Zealand, I think, which I haven t listened to, I think called Who Shat on the Floor at My Wedding.
6
SPEAKER_06
Oh my God.
6
SPEAKER_07
And it s a true crime podcast.
6
SPEAKER_07
What?
6
SPEAKER_07
Where someone takes a, I haven t listened to it so I might, but I ve read enough about it.
6
SPEAKER_07
Someone takes a shit on the floor at a wedding and the whole true crime podcast is trying to figure out who.
6
SPEAKER_06
Figuring out.
6
SPEAKER_06
Oh, I love that.
6
SPEAKER_06
That s hilarious.
6
SPEAKER_07
So if you re wanting something a bit lighter where there s no death, I recommend that.
6
SPEAKER_07
But In the Dark, I think it had three seasons, but season two is the thing that I just think everyone should listen to.
6
SPEAKER_07
It s my favorite true crime telling of a story in podcast form.
6
SPEAKER_07
It explores the legal odyssey surrounding Curtis Flowers, who is accused of shooting four people to death inside Tardy Furniture in Mississippi in 1996.
6
SPEAKER_07
I ll play a little bit of an episode, but it s just beautifully told.
6
SPEAKER_07
It s really good journalism.
6
SPEAKER_07
I think at a time when people are like moaning about journalism being terrible and so this is an example of a team coming together, going through a lot of data, interviewing a lot of people and it leading to someone being released from prison.
6
SPEAKER_07
It s really well done and it s really well constructed.
6
SPEAKER_07
This is what it sounds like.
6
SPEAKER_03
It s been more than three years since I got an email from a woman telling me about a man named Curtis Flowers.
6
SPEAKER_03
In the time since, I d moved to Mississippi, interviewed hundreds of people, examined every piece of evidence in the case against him.
6
SPEAKER_03
And yet, in all that time, there was one person I was never able to really talk to.
6
SPEAKER_03
Until now.
6
SPEAKER_07
Yeah, in The Dark Season 2, it s so compelling and so good.
6
SPEAKER_07
And I just feel not as many people know about it as the likes of a serial.
6
SPEAKER_07
And I think it could do with some more listens.
6
SPEAKER_06
I love this.
6
SPEAKER_06
David, this is awesome.
6
SPEAKER_06
I think this has been great.
6
SPEAKER_06
You are an expert in this field.
6
SPEAKER_07
I m a fan of the field.
6
SPEAKER_06
Okay, you can say you re a fan, but you are an expert in the field.
6
SPEAKER_06
I think I ve texted you before and said, what are your favorite docs?
6
SPEAKER_06
You have, yeah, thank you.
6
SPEAKER_06
I need to know from someone who understands the medium.
6
SPEAKER_06
Tickled would be on so many people s lists.
6
SPEAKER_06
I appreciate you did not put it on yours.
6
SPEAKER_06
I mean, you stayed humble, but it would definitely be on mine.
6
SPEAKER_06
And if you have not watched Tickled, which I m sure at this point, if you re listening to this show, you probably have.
6
SPEAKER_06
It s incredible.
7
SPEAKER_04
It s a fun one.
7
SPEAKER_03
Actually, you ve just highlighted such a cultural thing that I m still dealing with, is if you compliment a New Zealander, we just want to disappear into the ground.
7
SPEAKER_03
Small poppies.
7
SPEAKER_03
But thank you.
7
SPEAKER_03
I mean, tall poppies.
7
SPEAKER_04
I appreciate it.
7
SPEAKER_04
You should start doing small poppy and then try to be tall and big.
7
SPEAKER_03
I really like that.
7
SPEAKER_03
Just really quickly, there s one more thing that I really like called A Very Fatal Murder.
7
SPEAKER_03
It s a parody of the genre.
7
SPEAKER_04
— Oh, fun.
7
SPEAKER_03
— And this is just a quick excerpt that I liked.
7
SPEAKER_02
— When I think about the murder of Haley Price, there are two things that are important.
7
SPEAKER_02
There s what I know, and what I don t.
7
SPEAKER_00
— Haley Price, 17 years old, at time of death, 5 feet 5 inches, life cut short in senseless act of violence.
7
SPEAKER_02
— I know that this is the most compelling murder in America.
7
SPEAKER_02
I know that the victim was a supple young girl in the prime of her life.
7
SPEAKER_02
And I know that she was killed by simultaneous gunshot-stabbing-strangling drowning.
7
SPEAKER_02
Ethel, have the police charged anyone with the murder?
7
SPEAKER_01
No, charges have been brought.
7
SPEAKER_01
David, would you like me to email police with recommendations of people to charge with the murder?
7
SPEAKER_03
Not yet.
7
SPEAKER_03
It s a really good parody, and if you like that, American Vandal is another great parody about the genre.
7
SPEAKER_04
That was fun.
7
SPEAKER_04
That s the dicks.
7
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, so it s like they try and solve the crime of like who s drawing dicks everywhere.
7
SPEAKER_04
Yes, that s so funny.
7
SPEAKER_03
And yeah, there s great parody of the genre as well, which it s a great criticism of the genre.
7
SPEAKER_04
Well, one thing that we didn t talk about, but that just reminded me and is probably important to say, and I know a big pushback of a lot of this genre, often, maybe mainly in podcasting, they pick stories where the victim is a sweet white woman.
7
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, totally.
7
SPEAKER_03
We care more about a young white woman than someone that isn t that.
7
SPEAKER_03
A hundred percent.
7
SPEAKER_03
It s a problem in all crime reporting.
7
SPEAKER_03
Exactly.
7
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_03
The victim you see will be like a smiling white kid as opposed to like all the crimes that aren t reported on as much.
7
SPEAKER_04
That are so many and so prevalent.
7
SPEAKER_04
Aren t humans great?
7
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_04
Oh, this really
7
SPEAKER_04
makes me scared.
7
SPEAKER_04
I m gonna have nightmares.
7
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, that s a whole other topic.
7
SPEAKER_03
Look, this could go on forever and we ll wind it up, but true crime does also play into this idea that we become, as a people, more scared than we need to be.
7
SPEAKER_03
There s this perception if you take in a lot of what you are reading, what s reported on, it does give you a disproportionate feeling of what the danger level is in the world.
7
SPEAKER_03
And I think that s a really interesting thing as well.
7
SPEAKER_03
So if you listen to this, please don t be too scared.
7
SPEAKER_03
Be cautious out there.
7
SPEAKER_04
Well, also, do you think it could be, I know we keep talking, but could it increase the amount of crime in some ways?
7
SPEAKER_03
That s the other thing.
7
SPEAKER_03
Like, I can t remember who said this.
7
SPEAKER_03
It might ve been a tweet.
7
SPEAKER_03
Someone commented, if we keep pushing the true crime genre as far as it can go, eventually it s going to be a documentary we re watching where the killer has picked up a camcorder.
7
100%.
7
SPEAKER_03
They picked up their iPhone, they re recording it all.
7
SPEAKER_03
And it s like, oh my God.
7
SPEAKER_03
here s a true crime documentary and we can learn about it from the perspective, that s where we re headed.
7
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, I could see it becoming very nefarious.
7
SPEAKER_03
Well, yeah, and I think you ve got to think about this on the ethical boundary of, is this journalism or is it entertainment?
7
SPEAKER_03
Because, and it comes back to that thing of centering the victims more than the perps, because if you re watching things where the perps have been glorified, a certain sort of person will watch that and go, oh, I can be a celebrity out of this.
7
SPEAKER_03
Which is a whole other part of America about the celebrity of doing awful things and filming it.
7
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_04
Oh boy.
7
SPEAKER_04
All right.
7
SPEAKER_03
So I feel like I just talked to you a lot and I wanted more of your takes and films, but we can probably do a part two at some point.
7
SPEAKER_03
I loved it.
7
SPEAKER_04
This was very, very fun.
7
SPEAKER_04
I liked hearing your picks and I really liked hearing from
7
SPEAKER_03
Oh my God, Tara Newell was the best.
7
SPEAKER_04
Tara, she was so awesome.
7
SPEAKER_04
It was very nice that she spoke to you for this.
7
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, she s awesome.
7
SPEAKER_03
Whenever I see her, she has a cute dog by her side.
7
SPEAKER_03
She s good.
7
SPEAKER_04
Good for her.
7
SPEAKER_04
I like her dogs.
7
SPEAKER_04
We ll end on that.
7
SPEAKER_03
I think we are all more American after this because we ve been talking about true crime, one of the most American things there is.
7
SPEAKER_04
Love it.
7
SPEAKER_03
Okay, bye guys.
7
SPEAKER_03
Bye.