1
SPEAKER_01
 are successful in so many other ways, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Successfully raising families, great friends.
1
SPEAKER_01
They know themselves to be kind and loyal people, amazing careers.
1
SPEAKER_01
I mean, we can call it the Oprah effect, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Like you can't point at Oprah and say, there's fear of success happening there.
1
SPEAKER_01
She just doesn't want to lose her weight, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
No, there's no fear of success.
1
SPEAKER_01
There's no lack of follow-through.
1
SPEAKER_01
There's no lack of intellect.
1
SPEAKER_01
 Right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Successful in every way, the food is a separate, different beast.
1
SPEAKER_01
It is the hardest, it is the hardest war out there to get the weight off and keep it off.
1
SPEAKER_02
I had an interview recently with Dr. Gabor Mate.
1
SPEAKER_02
I'm not sure if you've heard of him.
1
SPEAKER_01
Gabor Mate, yes.
1
SPEAKER_01
Gabor Mate, yes.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes, love that guy.
1
SPEAKER_02
And he talks about addiction as well, addiction in general.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I was like, what is the root of all addiction?
1
SPEAKER_02
And he said, unresolved trauma.
1
SPEAKER_02
He said, unresolved trauma.
1
SPEAKER_02
 psychologically, internally that you've yet to heal, learning to face that trauma and heal it.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I'm assuming there's obviously having a discipline and a program and other things at play to support you in being accountable from the addiction.
1
SPEAKER_02
And he said, if you don't really get to the root of the unresolved trauma,
1
SPEAKER_02
 it's going to continue to be hard to be not addicted to things.
1
SPEAKER_02
How does that resonate with you?
1
SPEAKER_02
Do you feel like there was trauma associated in your life as well that caused you to seek out these kind of empty devices that were becoming more addictive?
1
SPEAKER_01
 So maybe, yeah, I mean, life is difficult, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
And some things happen, but no big trauma for sure.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like I was not abused, I was not.
1
SPEAKER_02
It doesn't need to be a big T, it can be a little T, consistent little Ts.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, and so what I would say, I have a slightly different perspective as a neuroscientist who studies addiction in the brain.
1
SPEAKER_01
What I would say is that trauma and addiction have a very special relationship.
1
SPEAKER_01
 And most, I wouldn't say all, I would say most addicts have a background of trauma and I would say that healing the trauma is going to be absolutely necessary for sustained long-term recovery.
1
SPEAKER_01
And what I would say is I actually think addiction is more
1
SPEAKER_01
 The brain learns to scratch an itch and it, you know, it learns what works and over time, you know, if unchecked but trauma can be in the mix there too, like why is it left unchecked, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
 you know, rein it in or, you know, just don't let it get that far.
1
SPEAKER_01
They see themselves going down a road they don't want to go down, or maybe they never, maybe they see their family members go down a road that they don't want to go down, and so they never start.
1
SPEAKER_01
I'm not going there, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
I'm not going there, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
So it can be a trauma thing, but I would also say sometimes it can not be a trauma thing.
1
SPEAKER_02
Interesting.
1
SPEAKER_02
 So the brain just has this, for a third of the people, the population, it sounds like, is more of extreme addictive personality, or is it the brain connects its dopamine to itself in a tighter way?
1
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
1
SPEAKER_01
It wires for addiction, exactly.
1
SPEAKER_01
So there's a host of changes that happen in the brain with addiction.
1
SPEAKER_01
First of all, dopamine down regulation.
1
SPEAKER_01
So you've got this center in the brain.
1
SPEAKER_01
It's sort of like, it's almost right in the middle of the brain.
1
SPEAKER_01
You've got this addiction reward
1
SPEAKER_01
 motivation pathway, the ventral tegmental area, the nucleus accumbens, all driven by dopamine.
1
SPEAKER_01
And what happens is you flood that area with too much dopamine, like ungodly amounts, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Because donuts, frankly, you don't have anything like that in the wild.
1
SPEAKER_01
Blueberries, I mean, come on, not even close, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
What have you got in the wild that's like a donut?
1
SPEAKER_01
Nothing.
1
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it's the equivalent of pornography for sex.
1
SPEAKER_01
It's like,
1
SPEAKER_01
 you know, supranormal stimuli, we call it.
1
SPEAKER_02
Extreme sugar, flour, sugar, everything in one.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh my God, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
So you flood the brain with too much dopamine and the receptors go, whoa, we don't need anything like that kind of stimulation around here.
1
SPEAKER_01
And so they adapt, they down-regulate, the receptors become less numerous, less responsive to compensate for this flood that keeps coming in all the time.
1
SPEAKER_01
So that is challenging because now you're rewiring the brain.
1
SPEAKER_01
 And that's going to be fine as long as you keep swinging by that coffee shop and getting that fix, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
As long as you keep, you know, hitting that dunk of donuts, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
It's going to be fine.
1
SPEAKER_01
But if you don't start topping up every few hours, you're going to have a problem.
1
SPEAKER_01
You're going to feel itchy.
1
SPEAKER_01
You're going to feel restless.
1
SPEAKER_01
You're going to feel irritable.
1
SPEAKER_01
You're not going to feel quite right in your own skin because you don't have enough baseline dopamine anymore.
1
SPEAKER_02
So... So when I have a donut, what happens to my brain and my body?
1
SPEAKER_01
 So, it hits the brain first where dopamine floods into that area and... It says, this is incredible.
1
SPEAKER_01
This is incredible.
1
SPEAKER_01
We love this.
1
SPEAKER_02
We love this.
1
SPEAKER_02
Do more of this.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes, exactly.
1
SPEAKER_01
And then over time, you start liking that donut less but wanting that donut more.
1
SPEAKER_01
Oh, man.
1
SPEAKER_00
 F'd.
1
SPEAKER_01
Then it's a problem.
1
SPEAKER_01
You like it less, you want it more.
1
SPEAKER_01
And there's this incredible line of research that shows that people with obesity, people with addiction,
1
SPEAKER_01
 Their wanting system is out of control, but they're not even liking it anymore.
1
SPEAKER_02
And they're probably after eating it, disgusted with themselves, right?
1
SPEAKER_02
It's kind of like, why did I do this?
1
SPEAKER_02
This doesn't feel good.
1
SPEAKER_02
My stomach is telling me I don't want this, but I need more to feel good.
1
SPEAKER_02
Because I don't feel good now, so give me something so I can feel better about myself.
1
SPEAKER_01
 And then when you eat that donut, of course, it affects the blood sugar system and the insulin system.
1
SPEAKER_01
So blood sugar spikes, causing a dump of insulin into the system, too much insulin, which starts to create lack of insulin sensitivity, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
So now you're on the way to developing prediabetes and type two diabetes, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Because blood sugar is not supposed to go that high.
1
SPEAKER_01
You're not supposed to flood the system with that much insulin.
1
SPEAKER_02
It was never that in the wild.
1
SPEAKER_01
 No, never, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
So all of these systems start to compensate and over time you just get sicker and sicker and sicker.
1
SPEAKER_02
So sugar and food is more addictive than drugs.
1
SPEAKER_01
 Yeah, I mean, more addictive is relative.
1
SPEAKER_01
It doesn't actually release more dopamine, but it's more addictive in that it's harder to quit because when you're actually trying to quit it, there's all these problems with quitting because the other change that happens in the brain
1
SPEAKER_01
 is the addicted brain is hypersensitive to the cues that predict that reward, whether it's the logo or the billboard for your favorite brands, now you're gonna pull in through the smell, a time of day, a social cue, an emotion, all these things are driving you.
1
SPEAKER_01
And if you think about how often you eat addictively, it's all through the day, it's nonstop practically.
1
SPEAKER_01
 And so those cues are so ubiquitous in our current food environment that it's going to be very, very hard to quit.
1
SPEAKER_02
Is there such a thing as good sugar?
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, apples.
1
SPEAKER_01
Apples.
1
SPEAKER_02
 But isn't there like a lot of sugar in apples now?
1
SPEAKER_02
It's like the bigger the apple, it's like so much sugar in there and so much fructose, right?
1
SPEAKER_02
Does that spike your blood sugar up too?
1
SPEAKER_01
Not as bad.
1
SPEAKER_01
So the fiber and all of the micronutrients and stuff in an apple, it does not spike your blood sugar, but don't drink apple juice.
1
SPEAKER_01
 So it's like eat the apple eat the whole real apple.
1
SPEAKER_01
And so I actually I have one pet peeve in life I'm not a super easily annoyed gal pretty laid-back, but I have one pet peeve and it's the word carb
1
SPEAKER_01
 Carbs, when people talk about carbs, it's the worst word in the world because it completely conflates, you know, carrots, bananas, spinach, vegetables, vegetables and fruits with, you know, with bagels and pasta, you know, and it's like, let's just be clear.
1
SPEAKER_01
We want to talk about flour and sugar.
1
SPEAKER_01
 And the flour is bad, but you wanna be eating good carbohydrates, and a lot of them.
1
SPEAKER_01
And people are literally confused, thinking it's bad to eat an apple.
1
SPEAKER_01
And it's like, they're thinking it's better to eat bacon than to eat an apple.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I'm like, come on, people.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like, really, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
It's okay to eat an apple.
1
SPEAKER_01
Apples are good, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
So we need to stop using that word carb.
1
SPEAKER_01
It's just not a helpful word.
1
SPEAKER_02
And why is flour so bad?
1
SPEAKER_02
And what's worse, flour or sugar?
1
SPEAKER_01
 So sugar is worse, but interestingly, this is a research study that I want to do.
1
SPEAKER_01
Some percentage of people are more flour-based in their food addiction.
1
SPEAKER_01
So they're like, I don't really have a sweet tooth, but don't take my bread.
1
SPEAKER_01
Don't take my pasta.
1
SPEAKER_01
So I think it's about 20% of the food addicted population.
1
SPEAKER_01
So flour and sugar both.
1
SPEAKER_01
 have to do with drugs.
1
SPEAKER_01
So let's talk about drugs.
1
SPEAKER_01
What is a drug?
1
SPEAKER_01
How do you make a drug?
1
SPEAKER_01
What makes these things drugs?
1
SPEAKER_01
So pop quiz, Lewis Howes.
1
SPEAKER_02
You're asking the wrong guy, but go ahead.
1
SPEAKER_01
No, maybe.
1
SPEAKER_01
Where do they get cocaine from?
1
SPEAKER_01
How do you make cocaine?
1
SPEAKER_01
Where does it come from?
1
SPEAKER_02
From cocoa bean?
1
SPEAKER_01
 The coca leaf.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, the coca leaf, right?
1
SPEAKER_02
So in the Andes Mountains- Is there a coca bean too, or no?
1
SPEAKER_01
I think that makes coffee.
1
SPEAKER_01
That's coffee, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
Or chocolate.
1
SPEAKER_01
Or maybe that's chocolate.
1
SPEAKER_02
Chocolate, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
We got all the drugs in here.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
So coca leaf.
1
SPEAKER_01
So they take these coca leaves, and in the Andes Mountains, the hikers chew on them.
1
SPEAKER_01
They stick them in their cheek and suck on them and chew on them.
1
SPEAKER_01
But there's actually, funny enough, a published scientific paper saying that it's not addictive.
1
SPEAKER_01
The leaf.
1
SPEAKER_01
The leaf is not addictive.
1
SPEAKER_01
Chewing on coca leaves is not addictive.
1
SPEAKER_01
 It cuts out the fiber, that's why.
1
SPEAKER_01
Maybe.
1
SPEAKER_01
It makes your cheek a little numb.
1
SPEAKER_01
Maybe it might give you a little lift, but nobody's breaking into their grandma's house to steal the VCR to, you know, sell it to go get more coca leaves.
1
SPEAKER_01
Not addictive.
1
SPEAKER_01
But if you take the inner essence of that coca leaf and then you refine and purify it down into a fine white powder, now you've made a drug.
1
SPEAKER_01
You had a harmless plant.
1
SPEAKER_01
You've turned it into a drug.
1
SPEAKER_01
Where does heroin come from?
1
SPEAKER_02
 You're asking the wrong guy.
1
SPEAKER_01
Poppies.
1
SPEAKER_01
Heroin comes from poppies.
1
SPEAKER_02
Did you know that you'll- I guess I saw Monarch, not Monarch, I saw Ozark, and they talked about that in Ozark.
1
SPEAKER_02
They grew the poppy plants.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, okay.
1
SPEAKER_01
So did you know that you'll fail a drug test if you eat too many poppy seed bagels?
1
SPEAKER_02
I heard that.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
Is that true?
1
SPEAKER_01
It is true.
1
SPEAKER_01
It is true.
1
SPEAKER_01
Heroin comes from poppies.
1
SPEAKER_01
But nobody's breaking into the bagel shop to get poppy seed bagels, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Because they can't stand to not have them.
1
SPEAKER_02
Maybe because they taste so good, but yeah, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
 But so, you know, poppies are innocuous.
1
SPEAKER_01
You could probably sit in a field of poppies and eat them and be fine.
1
SPEAKER_01
But if you take the inner essence of that poppy plant and then you refine and purify it down into a fine brown powder,
1
SPEAKER_01
 or a sticky sludge, now you've created heroin.
1
SPEAKER_02
Interesting.
1
SPEAKER_01
Through extracting and purifying and refining, you've turned it into a drug.
1
SPEAKER_01
Same way they make high fructose corn syrup, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
I eat corn on the cob all the time.
1
SPEAKER_01
No problem with corn.
1
SPEAKER_01
But if you take the inner essence of that corn and you refine and purify it down into a fine sticky sludge,
1
SPEAKER_01
 or if you take wheat, I eat wheat, like wheat berries, you go to the bins at the health food store and you get wheat berries and you boil them for an hour like rice.
1
SPEAKER_01
I eat that, but I don't eat flour because now you've extracted just the inner essence of that wheat plant or rice plant or potato plant or whatever, and you've refined and purified it down into a powder.
1
SPEAKER_01
Now you've got the problem.
1
SPEAKER_01
So metabolically speaking,
1
SPEAKER_01
 Brain wise, you've turned it into a drug.
1
SPEAKER_01
It's gonna hit the brain hard and fast.
1
SPEAKER_01
Extreme dopamine.
1
SPEAKER_02
Flour sugar is extreme dopamine.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes, and the blood system, if you... Spiking now, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Spiking it, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
If you think about... So is that like adrenaline or what is that?
1
SPEAKER_02
Is that giving you adrenaline or something when it spikes?
1
SPEAKER_01
Blood sugar.
1
SPEAKER_01
No, it's an insulin rush.
1
SPEAKER_01
It's a blood sugar rush and an insulin rush.
1
SPEAKER_02
What does that do for the body with an insulin rush?
1
SPEAKER_02
Does it make you feel like you have energy?
1
SPEAKER_02
Are you jittery?
1
SPEAKER_02
Are you...
1
SPEAKER_01
 know what it does is it makes you store fat, actually.
1
SPEAKER_01
So what it does, insulin goes in there and it sucks out all the blood sugar from your bloodstream, stores it away as fat, and then leaves you with a blood sugar deficit, so you've got to go get another hit.
1
SPEAKER_01
It's like a two-hour cycle.
1
SPEAKER_01
 So you eat, the blood sugar spikes, the insulin comes in, cleans up all the blood sugar, it dips too low now, and now you're shaky, literally feeling like, why do I need to eat something?
1
SPEAKER_01
I just ate a couple hours ago.
1
SPEAKER_01
But if you eat the wrong things, your blood sugar is now actually too low.
1
SPEAKER_01
 Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
So if you think about your digestive system, think about a hot summer day and a blacktop driveway, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Eating an apple and a big salad and some brown rice and some salmon, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Just a wholesome meal.
1
SPEAKER_01
 is like taking, digestively, is like taking a big, you know, one foot by one foot block of ice and dropping it onto the blacktop driveway.
1
SPEAKER_01
Metabolically, it'll digest, like the ice will melt, but slowly.
1
SPEAKER_01
But now imagine that you eat yourself a bagel, you know, or whatever.
1
SPEAKER_01
You eat some sugar and flour.
1
SPEAKER_01
You eat a bagel, you eat some Doritos, and you eat a candy bar.
1
SPEAKER_01
 That's the equivalent of taking snow cone ice shavings and sprinkling them onto the blacktop driveway.
1
SPEAKER_01
It just melts on contact.
1
SPEAKER_01
It all floods into your bloodstream and you get all of the response right away.
1
SPEAKER_01
Again, blood sugar spikes, insulin rushes in, and it's a completely different metabolic experience.
1
SPEAKER_01
So you need to be eating whole real foods.
1
SPEAKER_01
Everybody knows this.
1
SPEAKER_01
It's not neuroscience.
1
SPEAKER_01
You need to eat whole real foods.
1
SPEAKER_02
Right.
1
SPEAKER_02
 So it's one of the hardest things to overcome.
1
SPEAKER_02
It seems like 50% or close to 50% of the population is getting obese now because of the temptation, the access, the marketing, all the cues that hook you into it, the dopamine rush, just our bodies are addicted to it.
1
SPEAKER_02
So how do we break the addiction of sugar and flour?
1
SPEAKER_01
 Well, because it's the hardest, it takes a lot, Lewis.
1
SPEAKER_01
It takes a system.
1
SPEAKER_01
It takes a village.
1
SPEAKER_01
It takes a system.
1
SPEAKER_01
It takes more structure and discipline with your eating.
1
SPEAKER_02
So you can't just say, I'm going to have willpower?
1
SPEAKER_01
No.
1
SPEAKER_01
Willpower doesn't work.
1
SPEAKER_01
Willpower doesn't work.
1
SPEAKER_02
Does it work for anyone?
1
SPEAKER_02
Maybe if you have a less addictive personality type and you're not as addicted or something.
1
SPEAKER_01
 You know, I don't want to say it never works for anyone.
1
SPEAKER_01
I think that extreme force of will can do amazing things in a human being, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
I mean, you're talking about how you just have never drank, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
That you just don't drink.
1
SPEAKER_02
 But I don't feel addicted, I never was addicted to it, I don't feel a pull to it also.
1
SPEAKER_02
So I'm not like, I crave this.
1
SPEAKER_02
Whereas with food, most people kind of like crave it.
1
SPEAKER_02
Until maybe they don't after like, maybe it takes, how long did it take you to stop craving sugar?
1
SPEAKER_02
Because your body starts to get used to other foods that are good for you, but you're like, I don't want that ice cream.
1
SPEAKER_01
 I was pretty neutral within a few months.
1
SPEAKER_01
I would say within a few months and now I'm extremely neutral.
1
SPEAKER_01
I have three kids and I'll serve cupcakes at a birthday party or something.
1
SPEAKER_01
I'll get frosting on my hands and it's kind of like having paint on my hands.
1
SPEAKER_01
I might just go rinse it off.
1
SPEAKER_01
I have no urge to lick my fingers or anything like that.
1
SPEAKER_02
You're not like eating it?
1
SPEAKER_01
No.
1
SPEAKER_01
It looks like plastic now.
1
SPEAKER_01
It's really neutral.
1
SPEAKER_02
So when you see a bucket of cookie dough, you don't think I want to eat this whole bucket again?
1
SPEAKER_01
 I have to be careful not to let myself really think about it, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
So I'm vigilant in my mind.
1
SPEAKER_01
First of all, I guard my mind.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I don't bake cookies with my kids.
1
SPEAKER_01
My mom does, you know, and their grandma does, their grandpa does, my husband will.
1
SPEAKER_01
I don't bake cookies with my kids, because I just, I know myself, I've got no, cookie dough is my all time drug of choice.
1
SPEAKER_01
All time drug of choice.
1
SPEAKER_02
 Cookie dough crack, I'm going for the cookie dough.
1
SPEAKER_01
I'm going for the cookie dough.
1
SPEAKER_01
I got no business being up to my elbows in cookie dough.
1
SPEAKER_01
I just know myself, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
But I guard my mind and it's not hard.
1
SPEAKER_01
It's just not hard.
1
SPEAKER_02
Right.
1
SPEAKER_02
So what are some of the key strategies to cope with food addiction?
1
SPEAKER_01
 Well, you need a program.
1
SPEAKER_01
You need a system, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
And this is where a 12-step program can come in, or this is where Bright Line Eating comes in.
1
SPEAKER_01
So there's one commercial program that addresses this, and I founded it.
1
SPEAKER_01
It's called Bright Line Eating.
1
SPEAKER_01
I didn't intend to found a program.
1
SPEAKER_01
I was intending to write a book.
1
SPEAKER_01
And so we kind of left off on my story after I started studying neuroscience and all that.
1
SPEAKER_01
But I became a psychology professor and started teaching a college course on the psychology of eating.
1
SPEAKER_01
 and taught that for many, many years.
1
SPEAKER_01
And then I had another one of those moments of clarity, like those moments, like that moment in the crack house.
1
SPEAKER_01
I was meditating.
1
SPEAKER_01
I had been in a right-sized body, the same size body that I'm in today for probably about 10 years.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I was in my morning meditation session.
1
SPEAKER_01
I meditate for 30 minutes every morning.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I think this time it was a voice.
1
SPEAKER_01
It was a booming,
1
SPEAKER_01
 voice that said write a book called Bright Line Eating.
1
SPEAKER_01
And in that meditation session I started to feel
1
SPEAKER_01
 impulsing waves and emotional, like teary, choked me up sort of feelings, the desperation of people who just didn't have an answer for their food addiction, their weight problem, who, like I used to be curled up in the fetal position on the floor, writing letters to God, asking, you know, please God, like, how do I stop this eating?
1
SPEAKER_01
How do I get this weight off?
1
SPEAKER_01
What do I do?
1
SPEAKER_01
I keep doing this over and over again.
1
SPEAKER_01
 Send me an answer.
1
SPEAKER_01
Send me an answer.
1
SPEAKER_01
And so I knew what bright line eating meant but I'd never thought those words before.
1
SPEAKER_01
I don't think those words ever existed in that order before.
1
SPEAKER_01
So a bright line is a clear unambiguous boundary that you just don't cross.
1
SPEAKER_01
It's actually a legal term.
1
SPEAKER_01
 So if you go to Wikipedia, a bright line rule is a rule in law that gets, it's a rule or standard that gets applied consistently to produce consistent results, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
It's just, you're always gonna apply this rule or standard.
1
SPEAKER_01
And in his book, Willpower by Roy Baumeister, he talks about Eric Clapton and Eric Clapton's sobriety and about bright lines for alcohol and drugs and how,
1
SPEAKER_01
 It's so helpful for willpower to use a bright line rule like, I don't drink ever, or I'm not gonna drink tonight if I'm the designated driver, no alcohol.
1
SPEAKER_01
He says, if you're the designated driver, don't walk into the party thinking, I'll be sure to drink moderately tonight.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, not even a sip.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, not even a sip, right?
1
SPEAKER_02
That's been my life of like, I just don't drink.
1
SPEAKER_01
There you go.
1
SPEAKER_01
And the bright line rule is easy, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
You just don't have the first sip.
1
SPEAKER_01
 And in the book, though, he then says Bright Line rules are great for issues of temptation and willpower control, but they won't help with every problem.
1
SPEAKER_01
The dieter cannot stop eating all food.
1
SPEAKER_01
 And I thought to myself, oh wow, if Roy Baumeister, who's one of the most preeminent psychologists in the world, is not clear that you can use bright lines for food, we've got a real problem.
1
SPEAKER_01
Because you can.
1
SPEAKER_01
You have to eat to live, but you don't have to eat donuts to live.
1
SPEAKER_01
You do not have to eat donuts to live.
1
SPEAKER_01
 and no sugar, no flour, and meals and quantities are the other two bright lines.
1
SPEAKER_02
Oh man, that's so hard for people too, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
It is, and it's so necessary because food addiction is not just a substance addiction.
1
SPEAKER_01
It's not just the sugar and the flour.
1
SPEAKER_01
It's a process addiction too, like gambling or pornography.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's a quantity, it's a frequency.
1
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
1
SPEAKER_01
 So, if you're a food addict, you've got a brain that says, is it time to eat now?
1
SPEAKER_01
How about now?
1
SPEAKER_01
How about a little more?
1
SPEAKER_01
Are you sure you've got enough?
1
SPEAKER_01
A little bit more.
1
SPEAKER_01
A little bit more.
1
SPEAKER_01
How about now?
1
SPEAKER_01
A little bit more.
1
SPEAKER_01
Are you sure you've got enough?
1
SPEAKER_01
How about you think you need a little bit more?
1
SPEAKER_01
And that's true even for a healthy meal.
1
SPEAKER_01
You can sort of go overboard on the quantities.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I'm not talking a little overboard.
1
SPEAKER_02
You could have a pound of broccoli.
1
SPEAKER_02
 Well, which is your thing, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Roasted Brussels sprouts, man.
1
SPEAKER_01
I can go to town, honey crisp apples.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I need a lot of those, right?
1
SPEAKER_02
And that's not healthy if you over binge on healthy food also.
1
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I know someone, she was a restrictor by nature, a food restrictor, but she, her anorexia was so bad that she would stand in the kitchen and eat
1
SPEAKER_01
 iceberg lettuce and button mushrooms dipped in mustard and she would eat like whole heads of iceberg lettuce.
1
SPEAKER_01
She'd eat like 100 calories and binge her brains out, eat all day.
1
SPEAKER_01
So quantities are an issue.
1
SPEAKER_01
There's actually stretch receptors in the stomach.
1
SPEAKER_01
 and a brain switch that when you've eaten, like overeaten, like really overeaten for a food addict, it's a triggering thing.
1
SPEAKER_01
It leads to wanting to eat more, not less.
1
SPEAKER_01
There was an interesting study that showed people ate a little bit and then stopped to answer a question.
1
SPEAKER_01
How hungry are you right now?
1
SPEAKER_01
Ate a little bit more.
1
SPEAKER_01
How hungry are you right now?
1
SPEAKER_01
A normal eater, they eat a meal and their hunger level goes down, down, down, down, down.
1
SPEAKER_01
And then they get full and they just push the food away.
1
SPEAKER_01
They reach a point where they're like, I don't want any more food.
1
SPEAKER_01
 A binge eater gets full, full, full, full, full, hungry, hungry, hungry, hungry, hungry.
1
SPEAKER_01
It's a U-shaped curve, where at the end of the meal, they're as ravenous as they were when they started the meal.
1
SPEAKER_02
Oh, now we've got dessert 10 minutes later?
1
SPEAKER_02
Let me get some more, even though I'm full.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, more, more, more, exactly.
1
SPEAKER_01
 So sugar, flour, meals, and quantities.
1
SPEAKER_01
And so I started this program called Bright Line Eating.
1
SPEAKER_01
It didn't start as a program at first.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like I said, I just started writing a book.
1
SPEAKER_01
In that morning meditation session, I envisioned it being on the New York Times bestseller list.
1
SPEAKER_01
I could see, I don't know if this was me visioning or if it was visions.
1
SPEAKER_01
It felt like visions that were coming to me, whatever, but I was on the Today Show.
1
SPEAKER_01
These are all things that happened.
1
SPEAKER_01
The book was on the New York Times list and I was on the Today Show and all these things happened.
1
SPEAKER_01
 And this book took off and the program took off, the membership, the community that we have, because it does take a village.
1
SPEAKER_01
When you're recovering from this, society pushes against you with its full force.
1
SPEAKER_01
 all of it, like social pressure.
1
SPEAKER_02
Drink, eat, have some more.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and people, you're getting too thin.
1
SPEAKER_01
And it's like, dude, I still have 50 pounds to lose.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes, I've lost 150, but I'm not too thin.
1
SPEAKER_01
I still have 50 pounds.
1
SPEAKER_01
You're getting too thin, don't lose any more weight.
1
SPEAKER_01
People that never commented when you were climbing above 300 pounds, they didn't say anything, but now they're gonna harass you about your weight because you're losing weight.
1
SPEAKER_01
Our society is pretty bizarre when it comes to weight.
1
SPEAKER_01
 We need a community of people who will help you get to your natural right size body.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I'm not the thin police.
1
SPEAKER_01
I don't think you need to be a certain size or whatever.
1
SPEAKER_01
But let's be real.
1
SPEAKER_01
Health is associated with body weight to a significant extent.
1
SPEAKER_01
 and you don't wanna be eating in a way that feels like you're hurting yourself, like you're harming yourself with this food that you're eating, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
So for a lot of people, recovery is where they wanna go.
1
SPEAKER_01
They wanna address this problem, get the weight off and get a brain that's not chattering at them all the time, a brain that's peaceful around food where you're eating what you wanna be eating, your weight is in check and you're free to live your life
1
SPEAKER_02
 Yeah, and you feel in alignment with the highest version of your self-identity.
1
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
1
SPEAKER_02
You feel like, oh, I match where I want to be.
1
SPEAKER_02
Maybe I could always tweak and be a little bit better or something if I'm trying to be perfect, which is not reasonable, but I feel good most of the time about where I'm at, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
1
SPEAKER_01
 It's a Maslow's hierarchy of needs thing, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
Like that tippy tip of the top of the pyramid is self-actualization, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
The striving for self-actualization.
1
SPEAKER_01
And for a lot of us in this society, we have shelter over our heads, we have friends, we have family, we're working in a way that is all right, we're making money.
1
SPEAKER_01
 And then so as we look to our self-actualization needs, for a lot of us, getting our weight in check is, for me, that was the first thing that would always come up.
1
SPEAKER_01
If I was really gonna strive to be the best version of myself, I knew the first thing I needed to do was get my food and my weight under control, because it was not in alignment.
1
SPEAKER_01
It was the first thing.
1
SPEAKER_01
And so what I often say is, the person who's gonna solve cold fusion for us
1
SPEAKER_01
 Not even working on the equations right now because they're starting their fourth diet this year already.
1
SPEAKER_01
There's they're trying to control their eating It's something like 60% of us 50 to 60 percent of us are Trying to control our weight and our eating and we're trying four or five new attempts each year different diet What's with all the there's so many different diets out there, right and so many.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, how many of them actually work?
1
SPEAKER_01
 Well, any of them work if you can stick to them long term.
1
SPEAKER_01
Most of them aren't set up so that you can stick to them long term.
1
SPEAKER_01
They don't work with the brain to solve the addiction problem.
1
SPEAKER_01
And so they're not going to work long term, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
If you're eating frankenfoods, first of all, if you're eating
1
SPEAKER_01
 Bars and shakes and powders and you know foods with sugar and flour in them You're gonna keep the addiction alive.
1
SPEAKER_01
And so it's you know, your willpower is gonna give out eventually.
1
SPEAKER_01
It's never gonna work So you got to be eating whole real foods and you've got you know, even the whole food plant-based community that talks about whole real foods They're on the you can eat as much as you want bandwagon thing.
1
SPEAKER_02
Oh
1
SPEAKER_01
 Yeah, and there's a lot of pasta and a lot of keto and stuff.
1
SPEAKER_02
There's a lot of... A lot of obese plant-based people.
1
SPEAKER_01
Say it again?
1
SPEAKER_02
There's a lot of people who are obese who are only plant-based too.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes, exactly.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's so much processed plant-based, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
On average, they weigh a little less than the normal population, but not much less.
1
SPEAKER_01
And so they're talking about you can eat as much as you want as long as you're eating
1
SPEAKER_01
 you know, the right foods, but let me tell you, I can sit down with a canister of raisins and cashews and, you know, eat the whole thing, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
So it's not just that you gotta eat plants.
1
SPEAKER_01
You gotta be careful, too, with the dates and the raisins.
1
SPEAKER_01
You gotta be careful on the quantities with the nuts.
1
SPEAKER_02
A lot of sugar and calories and all that stuff, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, totally.
1
SPEAKER_01
So it's sugar, flour, meals, and quantities, and you need a structured program like Bright Line Eating.
1
SPEAKER_02
So is it the structured program or is it fighting the addiction first?
1
SPEAKER_01
 Well, the structured program is what helps you fight the addiction.
1
SPEAKER_02
It does, okay.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so when you adopt the structured way of eating, it's the equivalent of stopping drinking, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
What you start doing is you start writing down your food the night before.
1
SPEAKER_02
Of what you're gonna eat tomorrow.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes, exactly.
1
SPEAKER_02
Preplanning the food.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes, breakfast, lunch, and dinner, according to a specific food plan that has categories and quantities.
1
SPEAKER_01
So you're writing down what you're gonna eat according to, you know, you start Bright Line Eating, you join the membership,
1
SPEAKER_01
 you get a food plan that's gonna work.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like we've figured this out already.
1
SPEAKER_01
We've been doing this for a long time.
1
SPEAKER_01
And there's a certain way you gotta structure your eating to make it successful in restaurants, to make it successful with travel, to make it successful for the longterm, to really get the food chatter, to quiet down.
1
SPEAKER_01
And it's structured, it's a commitment.
1
SPEAKER_01
And so- It's work, it's effort.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, well, welcome to the world of anything that matters in life.
1
SPEAKER_02
Welcome to discipline.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Well, welcome to the school of greatness.
1
SPEAKER_02
I know I think that's one that's one of the hardest things is being Structured organized and disciplined with food choices.
1
SPEAKER_02
I think that's probably the hardest things for people Especially if you're busy, especially if you're working a lot of you travel.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it's so easy to just I need a quick thing.
1
SPEAKER_02
I
1
SPEAKER_01
 That's what society does these days.
1
SPEAKER_01
We have gone so far on the continuum of unstructured eating.
1
SPEAKER_01
People wake up, they have no idea what they're going to eat today.
1
SPEAKER_01
They're going to eat whatever, whenever.
1
SPEAKER_01
They're just going to fly by the seat of their pants and they're shocked when it doesn't go well.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's interesting you say this, like pre-planning your food, because
1
SPEAKER_02
 You know, we talk about this in our world of like if you want to have the life you want, it's really thinking about the life you want and then pre-planning what are the actions I'm going to take today, tomorrow, next week, a month from now to get me closer to that result.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's not saying let me just wake up and figure it out today and just go with the flow.
1
SPEAKER_02
It's having a game plan.
3
SPEAKER_00
 are if they eat vegetables today.
3
SPEAKER_00
Then there's a couple other massive studies that have looked at how much you eat in terms of vegetables and it shows a linear relationship with mood and also with the presence or absence of depression and anxiety where
3
SPEAKER_00
 Eating no vegetables is terrible for depression and anxiety and for your mood.
3
SPEAKER_00
Eating lots of vegetables is great and it's a linear relationship.
3
SPEAKER_00
One serving a day is better than none.
3
SPEAKER_00
Two servings, three servings, four servings, five servings, six servings, up to like seven or eight servings a day, you see the benefits with eating vegetables.
3
SPEAKER_00
We eat a lot of vegetables in Bright Line Eating.
3
SPEAKER_00
 And then there's the whole omega-3, omega-6 fatty acid ratio, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
When you're eating cookies, crackers, cakes, french fries, all those foods, you're getting a flood of vegetable oils, which is omega-6 rich, and you get the standard American eating
3
SPEAKER_00
 10 to 20 to 30 times more omega-6 than omega-3 You cut out eating all that junk and now you balance your omega-6 and omega-3 ratios That's good for your brain for the cell membranes for brain health and so forth and also good for so we literally see a lot of people You know with clinical depression and clinical anxiety, you know seeing it clear up getting off those meds I mean people get off their diabetes, but these aren't these aren't promises.
3
SPEAKER_00
These are just predictions based on what we see
3
SPEAKER_00
 You know, but changing how you eat is very, very powerful for the mood and for the brain in general.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh, man.
3
SPEAKER_01
It's inspiring stuff, Susan.
3
SPEAKER_01
Thanks for sharing your story.
3
SPEAKER_01
I want to ask you a couple of final questions before I do.
3
SPEAKER_01
People, check out brightlineeating.com.
3
SPEAKER_01
You're also on YouTube and Instagram and Facebook, Bright Line Eating.
3
SPEAKER_01
You can find it all there.
3
SPEAKER_01
Your book as well, that's all on the website, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
People can get all the information there.
3
SPEAKER_01
How else can we be of service to you today?
3
SPEAKER_00
 You know, I just want everyone to understand, first of all, food addiction is real.
3
SPEAKER_00
You'll still hear people saying it's controversial.
3
SPEAKER_00
And the reality is that it's not controversial to neuroscientists who study addiction.
3
SPEAKER_00
You can just look at the brain scans.
3
SPEAKER_00
It's like the food-addicted brain looks just like the heroin-addicted brain, looks just like the cocaine-addicted brain.
3
SPEAKER_00
So we need to get over this whole notion that food addiction isn't real, or it's controversial, or it's a metaphor.
3
SPEAKER_00
It's a hardcore addiction, just like any other.
3
SPEAKER_00
So that's number one.
3
SPEAKER_00
 and understanding that not everyone's affected, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
So if you can take it or leave it when it comes to pizza and cookies and chocolate, just know that you're lucky, first of all, and you're not unique, but most people have some degree of addictive relationship on board when it comes to food, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Two thirds have some degree of addiction on board.
3
SPEAKER_00
 So just know that.
3
SPEAKER_00
And as a society, we've got to change how we're approaching this.
3
SPEAKER_00
We've really got to, because research shows now that two-thirds of the calories that our kids and adolescents are eating are ultra-processed foods.
3
SPEAKER_00
These are foods that never grew in the ground.
3
SPEAKER_00
They were born in factories as industrial ingredients and then poured into bags and shipped off to convenience stores, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
And if you look at restaurant menus for kids,
3
SPEAKER_00
 we're teaching kids to eat only processed foods.
3
SPEAKER_00
What happens when you feed rats that way for a few weeks is you try to put them back on rat chow and they'll starve themselves.
3
SPEAKER_00
They will not allow themselves to go back to a regular diet if they've been exposed to a cafeteria style US ultra processed foods diet.
3
SPEAKER_00
They won't eat anything else after that.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so we're raising our kids to not be able to eat real food.
3
SPEAKER_00
So we've got to understand
3
SPEAKER_00
 with the health challenges we've got in our society right now because of this you know that weight is an issue for health it really is that's we're not making that up it's not an issue of prejudice or fat shaming it's just scientific reality it's an issue and addiction is in the mix here right so um i guess for anyone who
3
SPEAKER_00
 resonates and feels like they have a more addictive relationship with food, I just want you to know that there is a roadmap that works.
3
SPEAKER_00
There really is.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it's not, I've done it, lots of people have done it, and you're not gonna be consigned to a miserable life, I promise.
3
SPEAKER_00
It's a better life.
3
SPEAKER_00
It's a better life.
3
SPEAKER_01
You'll eat well, and you'll live a great life.
3
SPEAKER_01
That's right.
3
SPEAKER_01
 I got a question that I ask everyone at the end called the three truths So imagine it's your last day on earth many years away from now You get to live as long as you want to live you get to accomplish and create what you want to create But it's the last day For whatever reason you got to take all of your your message with you your book this interview your findings your researcher You know everything you've ever shared with the world for whatever reason it's got to go with you to the next place.
3
SPEAKER_01
I
3
SPEAKER_01
 But you get to leave behind three lessons, three truths with the world from all the things you've learned.
3
SPEAKER_01
What would be those three truths?
3
SPEAKER_01
And this is all we would have to kind of remember you by.
3
SPEAKER_00
Food addiction is real.
3
SPEAKER_00
Not every brain is equally affected.
3
SPEAKER_00
And for people who are affected, a plan of structured eating is going to produce a lot of freedom.
3
SPEAKER_01
 That's a great truth, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Freedom is the key.
3
SPEAKER_01
Peace and freedom is what a lot of people want.
3
SPEAKER_01
I want to acknowledge you, Susan, for your incredible journey.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean the story, the journey.
3
SPEAKER_01
I know how hard it is for people to cut any addiction and to free themselves from any addiction.
3
SPEAKER_01
 And it sounds like you have many of them that you've had to free yourself from and to be clean and sober for this many years and all of them and to be peaceful and healthy and happy and not craving something is really inspiring to see that it's possible for other people to do as well.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I acknowledge you for your service, for your mission, for helping people.
3
SPEAKER_01
 Give them the tools, the knowledge, the research, the science, the community to improve their life.
3
SPEAKER_01
It's really inspiring.
3
SPEAKER_01
Final question for you.
3
SPEAKER_01
What's your definition of greatness?
3
SPEAKER_00
Living true to oneself.
3
SPEAKER_00
 I'm just a big fan of to thine own self be true.
3
SPEAKER_00
People are different.
3
SPEAKER_00
People are different.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I love it when people answer their soul's calling and live true to themselves.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
There you go.
3
SPEAKER_01
Thank you so much.
3
SPEAKER_00
Appreciate it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Amazing.
3
SPEAKER_00
So great to be with you.
3
SPEAKER_00
Powerful.
3
SPEAKER_00
So great.
3
SPEAKER_00
Thanks for having me.
3
SPEAKER_01
Of course.
3
SPEAKER_01
 Thank you so much for listening.
3
SPEAKER_01
I hope you enjoyed today's episode and inspired you on your journey towards greatness.
3
SPEAKER_01
Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links.
3
SPEAKER_01
And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple podcasts as well.
3
SPEAKER_01
 I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most.
3
SPEAKER_01
And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.
3
SPEAKER_01
And now it's time to go out there and do something great.