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Welcome to this special masterclass.
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We ve brought some of the top experts in the world to help you unlock the power of your life through this specific theme today.
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It s going to be powerful.
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So let s go ahead and dive in.
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Secret to gaining the upper hand in negotiations given the other side the illusion of control now I m coming at you as a very control oriented negotiator As soon as you don t struggle with me over control you actually begin to gain an advantage Negotiators who want to talk all the time they feel out of control when they re not talking so you want to get them to the point where they don t talk but they don t talk because they re relaxed not because they re trying to seize control right and the nicer you are the more movable you could be
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You don t have to give up that much assertion.
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You don t want to be that mean.
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And a lot of times you won t tell me stuff if I ask.
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Hostage negotiators trigger information without asking questions.
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The nicer you are, the more movable you could be.
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The style of being, you can be very aggressive without, or very assertive without being aggressive.
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You don t have to give up that much assertion.
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You just, you don t want to be that mean.
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You don t want to be that hard on people.
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For example, what do you mean?
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Like how?
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Well, you know, we re in LA.
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Yes.
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There s a great guy here in town.
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His name is Tom Girardi.
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Voted top trial attorney in California several years in a row by the Bar Association.
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He gets a voter top trial attorney so many times that when they put it on a front page, they say again Wow, so he comes in and he s a guest of my class at USC and He stepped and I know he s a top trial attorney, but I don t know his style I figure he s gonna be an attack dog because I spent so much time in New York, you know I m used to attack dog attorneys and Tom walks into the class and he says, you know, the key to negotiations being nice and gentle
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Now what Tom does by being nice is get you to drop your guard.
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And Tom is an immovable, unrelenting opponent.
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And that s why he s so successful and he s ridiculously nice about it.
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Like he smiles and he chats with people And he always talks about how we ll collaborate with each other in the future.
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He s you get into an argument with him immediately He ll bend it where he s talking with you about how you and I are gonna be successful together ten years from now
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Hmm or in the future, which is the same thing a hostage negotiator does like if you re barricading the bank I m gonna say my first goal is to get you out of there alive Well, I picked a point of future that we can collaborate on Tom Girardi does this instinctively?
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And he s just super nice about it.
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I mean like you either you re gonna cooperate with him because you like him so much He s never gonna let up on you or more than likely you re gonna say something accidentally
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And and he gets people saying stuff accidentally any and then he could and then he doesn t jump on you if you say something accidentally He lets you say so many things accidentally.
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What do you mean?
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Well, like, you know, he loves to get people on Uncovered emails that they never should have written
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Like if you if you send Tom an email saying Tom, let s go have lunch together He will not email you back saying okay Because he doesn t put anything in emails because that s a downfall of almost every single lawsuit Somebody who s done something wrong is gonna put it in an email And Tom knows if he s nice to the other side long enough.
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He s gonna figure out where those emails are and
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So and that s what people do all the time, you know lawsuits are uncovered people get into trouble with what they put in emails when Wow when they when they say hey, they send an email to somebody else I say, you know, we you know, we shouldn t be doing this And a person sends an email back saying like yeah, it s okay.
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No, we re gonna find out Oh my gosh in today s day and age people put stuff in emails And so Tom knows he s just relentlessly nice relentless and the most charming guy you ever met your life Wow
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So you don t have to be aggressive secret to gaining the upper hand in negotiations given the other side the illusion of control Now I m coming at you as a very control oriented negotiator As soon as you don t struggle with me over control you actually begin to gain an advantage
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Because then you feel like you re in control, you don t have to try to gain it anymore.
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Right, right.
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I m more than likely going to start dropping my, if I m a control freak guy, if I want to talk all the time, I m a control freak guy.
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Control freak negotiators who want to talk all the time, they feel out of control when they re not talking.
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So you want to get them to the point where they don t talk, but they don t talk because they re relaxed, not because they re trying to seize control.
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Right.
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So you did a real nice job with that.
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Now, the only thing, another thing that we teach is, see, you re not going to give me a car.
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Right.
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And you re trying to make it sound like you were going to.
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Yeah.
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I teach how to say no.
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And then you want to feel other ways of saying it, because the real answer to that, just like at the very beginning of my book, you re supposed to look at me and say, how am I supposed to do that?
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So poise it back to a question.
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Right.
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A how question.
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An open-ended question.
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Well, not just open-ended.
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How.
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How is a key to life.
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Yes is nothing without how.
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So, you know, and you could also start talking about how without talking about, yes.
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So just say what I would say, you could say, how would I do that?
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But I say, I d love to get you what you need.
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How would I do that?
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Just how would I do that?
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How would I do that?
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So give them the control to figure out the solution.
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Right, right, right.
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How am I supposed to get you the car in that timeframe?
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Because that s what you re trying to express.
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There actually is a time problem here.
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Right in 60 seconds.
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How am I supposed to get you a car?
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Right, right that that s different than We can get a car.
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We just need 60 more seconds, right?
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We need more time Yeah, right because because now I think now I think you re ducking me.
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Okay, but if you instead you say like how much you know, I
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Of course the cars are out here right away, but first of all I gotta tell everybody what we re gonna do.
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I don t need anybody to get surprised.
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Let s talk through the details of how this is gonna get done.
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In the meantime, what got you here in the first place?
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How do you find yourself into this kind of a situation?
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How do I make sure I get you out of there alive?
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The succession of how questions How am I supposed to promise to get you a car if I don t know that she s gonna come out alive hmm you take what you want And make it the path to what I want hmm
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You know, how am I supposed to get you in here if it doesn t benefit me also?
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So as soon as in any negotiation, what I want is now a means of getting what you want, then that changes the dynamic right away.
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So how do you deal in a negotiation with the kind of person who has to win, who has to get everything they want, they re very controlling, alpha, and it s their way or?
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Well, getting everything they want is actually third on their list.
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First of all, being in control is number one on their list, and that s emotionally satisfying.
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The second thing is the alpha type, which is – we refer to that as the assertive.
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The one thing that s more important to them than actually getting what they want is being respected.
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And making sure that you know everything about what they re coming from.
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So, and it s a classic guy who s working for his boss and said, you know what, my boss didn t do what I wanted him to do, but he heard me out.
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Or she heard me out.
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I can live with the direction we re going as long as I know that my boss knows my opinion.
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And so the assertive type of negotiator, it s really more important to them that they felt that they conducted themselves respectably, that you respected them, and that you knew what they were coming from.
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And once they know those things, they ll actually soften up on what they want.
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If they feel disrespected, they ll probably be more frustrated and angry and demanding.
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Right, right, right, right.
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Because when they re very demanding, what they re really saying to you subtly is, I want you to know how important this is to me.
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I want you to know how important I am.
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So how do you meet that person?
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Just come to them with respect or with calm?
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You could say, look, you re impressive.
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You re phenomenal.
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You ve thought it s all out.
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Yeah, I mean clearly you know where you re coming from you know what you want I m lucky to be talking to you at all Right, I mean if we re out of sit down with Donald Trump I would in fact be lucky to be in the same room with him That d be the first thing I d say to him.
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I d say you re an American icon
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You know, you re the symbol of American business, certainly in New York City.
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Yeah, you know, stroke in their ego is not a bad thing.
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And, you know, it s a version of empathy, because that s how they see themselves.
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And, you know, the emotional recognition, like emotional currency is not going to solve every deal.
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I just don t want to try to solve any deal with money when I could have solved it with emotional currency.
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I m saving my money.
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with emotional empathy, currency, intelligence.
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My money s too important to me to waste it when I could buy something with satisfaction.
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So yeah, I m enormously tight with my dollars.
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And so many people, especially men in business deals, I feel like there s a lot of alpha men who are trying to get what they want.
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And so somehow they ll lose money because they re not able to have empathy or they re not able to whatever, they re not able to drop their ego.
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Yeah, a lot of money s left on the table over stuff like that.
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Or what they value themselves out.
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Price is the most emotional term in a negotiation because you value yourself based on price.
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But if I can get you to value yourself in another way, put you on a magazine cover.
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I mean, it used to be you d get Donald Trump in any magazine you wanted to if you put him on a cover.
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You know, imagine the amount of time, and that used to be his deal.
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If you wanted to do an article on Donald Trump, the deal was he made the cover.
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And and then he would knock himself out for the people doing the articles.
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Oh, yeah on access anything answering questions Imagine how valuable his time was They got a cover to the magazine.
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Anyway, I put somebody on it, right?
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You know now they re trading something that costs them nothing right and he s giving them Dynamic interviews and he s promoting him hard and he s sharing with everyone.
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It s a great get everywhere.
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Yeah Interesting.
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Yeah, so you you know, you re buying Donald Trump with emotional recognition
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So what are the characteristics that make a great negotiator in your field, and also how do those translate into the business and relationship world, just in general, outside of?
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Well, let the other side go first.
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You know most people have are so so they re burning with their argument.
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Here s why you should make this deal and They ve got that memorized and and that they re not gonna listen to a word you say till they get it out So trying to talk to them is really like trying to talk to a paranoid schizophrenic Because they re rehearsing their speech in their head and their logic and so they just you just can t get through to them so you let him go you let him go first and and
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Another guy, Ned Coletti, former GM of the Dodgers.
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Friend of mine here in town, phenomenal negotiator.
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He s lectured at my class at USC also.
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And Ned always likes to let the other side go first.
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He did the Barry Bonds deal.
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He s done a ton of deals across the board.
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And Ned says, well, in a two hour phone call, there s gonna be 90 seconds of solid gold.
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Where my the person I m talking to?
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Based on changes that they made in their tone of voice and the adjectives that they used I mean he s got an instinct for it He couldn t he couldn t identify he s sorry say there s 90 seconds aside gold, and I d say what is that all right?
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And we talk it through this as well.
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Yeah, it s gonna be a change in a tone of voice.
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It s gonna be a different kind of adjective So Ned wants you to go first because he wants to know what s gonna take to make the deal what they want, right?
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yeah, what they were burning for or
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how they characterize what they have.
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Or what they re not saying, too, maybe.
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Exactly right.
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What someone has failed to say is often a lot more important than what they have said, which is why I give it a little thought in advance.
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All right, what are they going to say if they ve got this?
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So I actually like to look for more of what they haven t said, what s glaringly missing.
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And that s going to take, I m going to need you to walk through it a couple of times before that jumps out at me.
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Hmm, okay, okay Who are the most difficult people to work with then would you say it s the alpha people or you say it s the?
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Uncertain people or what type of people are hard to work in negotiation with you know?
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You re talking about a little bit of a tight match that hasn t has a tendency It s a little bit based on how bad I want to make the deal like I don t like liars hmm
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I don t like the most difficult people to work with in the long run are People who haven t thought anything through which is as bad as a liar only their hearts not in the wrong place They don t know what they want right civically or they don t know how they re gonna make they don t know how they re gonna get this done Which is again we go over and over again.
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I go over and over again.
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Yes is nothing without how Like in the person who thinks like yes is gonna make a deal Well, yes is not gonna make a deal because you got to have how how we gonna put this together
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And someone that doesn t think things through a lot of times, they re actually kind of dysfunctional on their own side.
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So they ll make promises they can t keep, and they have no idea they can t keep those promises.
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And so when they take your deal, you think you ve done a deal with them, they take it back to their company, and their company goes, like, no, we re not doing this.
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This is a stupid idea.
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We can t do this.
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And that happens a lot.
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I think in a private sector, I ve heard from a number of companies that fully 50% of the deals that they make that don t go through get killed internally because somebody cut a deal for them and they took it back to the company.
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And the company says, no, that violates our terms and conditions.
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We can t deliver on that basis.
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So you re dealing with someone who just doesn t have a clue as to what s going on on their side.
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There are a lot of people like that.
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When you re making a business deal, what do you recommend as the amount of time to consider the deal before saying, yes, let s do it.
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Like here s the deal points.
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Here s what you want.
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Here s what I want.
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Okay.
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Should we sign it right away?
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Should we give it 24 hours?
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Should we take it to our team?
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Should it be a week?
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You know, what s like kind of a standard you think?
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Unless you ve got something in line ahead of time The company name is a black swan group because we believe there s black swans in every negotiation Which is something you didn t know that as soon as you found out it s gonna change all the print the deal gotcha So you sit down at the table to find out the unknowns?
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Huh?
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And you it s impossible to research all the unknowns plus a lot of the unknowns I ll find a lot faster if I just ask you
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And I could research for two weeks something that I may be able to get you to tell me about in 10 minutes.
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For example, what do you mean something you d want to ask?
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I m speaking for a long-time client and they have another firm that I ve been affiliated with doing a different block.
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When I found out they were doing that block, I could suddenly reach back through my network to find out what the competing slash partnership firm of mine is, what they re charging, or I could just flat out – well, I need to get the information.
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A lot of information you got to get by not asking.
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You got to trigger it.
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The phrase, ask good questions, it s really get good information.
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And a lot of times you won t tell me stuff if I ask.
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But if I act like I already know, or if there are other ways, hostage negotiators trigger information without asking questions.
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When people feel too comfortable with you, they will challenge you more.
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In what ways?
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They will test you more.
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They will push back more.
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the more comfortable people feel with you.
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Think of it, the people that know you the best in life, they push you back, they push back the most, they ll call you out the most.
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And sometimes not in a healthy way, in an unpleasant way, but if you re, there s something powerful with keeping some things about you to you.
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You don t have to be an open book.
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And I know this goes against a lot of, be vulnerable, be vulnerable.
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I m not telling you to be a jerk and I m not telling you to conceal everything about you but what I m telling you is you need to have a filter.
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Nobody needs to know, people don t need to know everything about you.
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Keep that stuff to yourself.
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When you were doing your interviews or interrogations
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Would you ever, or did you ever become too vulnerable as a, I guess, strategy to try to get the other person to open up and share their vulnerabilities and kind of reveal that they did the thing they did?
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I think what I just did is I empathized the most.
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Because in truth, can I- I can see how you feel about this.
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I haven t experienced, you know, I had a feeling- Well, if it s a criminal investigation, hopefully not.
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Oh, you killed her?
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Well, I could see why.
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Why I felt this in my life or whatever it may be.
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No, because that would be disingenuous.
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So I ll give you an example.
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There s a difference between pretending I understand and understanding.
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Empathy is I ve been there with you.
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So when I came in, I said, Louis, I m really sorry about your dad, right?
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So I ve also lost my dad.
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So if I said to you, Louis, I m sorry about your dad, I understand how that feels.
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Can I say that to you?
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Do I understand?
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If, because I lost my dad.
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You would say, she lost her father too, so she understands.
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Now, if I never lost my father.
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You can t say that.
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And I said that to you, you kind of be like, you don t really know.
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You still have your dad.
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So when you empathize with someone in a scenario where let s say you had just lost your dad and I didn t, I would try to empathize.
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That must be very difficult.
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I m sorry to hear that.
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Now, but not relating it to yourself, not relating to myself.
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So the only way you can relate it to yourself and it be genuine is if you.
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the exact same thing the other person did.
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So in this scenario, yes, you lost your dad.
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I lost my dad.
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So then you would feel genuine.
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So it would be the same thing when you speak to people.
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So it s how you say it.
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So if you re not experiencing the exact same thing, the best thing to do is say, I m sorry to hear that.
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That must be so difficult.
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I can t imagine.
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I m here for you if you need anything.
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You would do something along those lines.
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Instead of saying, I know how you feel.
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And trying to then, and this is what you don t want to do, because when you first told me, actually, I didn t say to you I lost my dad.
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Because I would take away from what I was sharing with you, I made it now about me.
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Oh, you lost your dad?
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Let me tell you about my dad.
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My dad died too.
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He died of cancer and all this stuff, and I ll go into that story.
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It takes away.
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So it s your story, your narrative, and I m going to let you just talk to me about it.
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And then if later mine comes up, fine.
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Sure, sure.
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So you don t want to make it about you.
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This is that me, me, me, me syndrome.
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When people are speaking to you, allow them to own their story.
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Don t feel that you have to be, oh yeah, I do the same thing.
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Oh yeah, this.
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They don t, one, they don t typically care.
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Unless you ve been through the exact same thing and you feel that by bringing that up that person needs that fine, right?
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But don t do you don t even need to yeah, if you don t need to don t bring it in.
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Don t don t bring in the noise Yeah, let that person s story be their story because what you re doing is you re bringing in your own stuff and give them that moment Yeah, let them have that moment I want to go back to something you you mentioned briefly that thought be interesting for people and
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When you re asking someone, when you want to get information out of someone, boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever, interrogating a criminal, whatever it might be, is it more an employee?
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Yes.
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Is it more effective to ask direct question?
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Did you do this or did this, or is it better to happen?
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Ask an open ended question and see what happens next.
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So direct questions are not good, and this is why.
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Most people do this, they go in for the kill, so to speak, and they get garbage.
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You get nothing.
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What do people say?
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They shut you down.
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Nobody, and especially if it s a sensitive topic, they re not gonna wanna tell you.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like, did you do it?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, hey, I did.
2
SPEAKER_00
Let me tell you, sit down.
2
SPEAKER_00
You wanna let people adjust.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s almost like you put their feet in the water, in the pool.
2
SPEAKER_00
Your feet, when you go into the ocean, you acclimate to the water.
2
SPEAKER_00
Some people dive in, yes.
2
SPEAKER_01
Sometimes I jump in because it s too cold to just keep going.
2
SPEAKER_00
But for the most part, the idea is you acclimate.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then by the time you get in, you re the same temperature.
2
SPEAKER_00
When you speak to people, then that s the way to do it.
2
SPEAKER_00
And you don t have to get the information in that moment.
2
SPEAKER_00
You want to work on people over time.
2
SPEAKER_00
So you want to get admissions, which is pieces of information, if we make it about a crime per se, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Rather than going, well, did you do this?
2
SPEAKER_00
Did you do this to this person?
2
SPEAKER_00
Did you?
2
SPEAKER_00
uh rape this person kill this person steal steal this thing and and i would never say steal sounds ugly you take this did you take this rape sounds ugly too i would never say rape or or kill kill i would say did you did you hurt this person
2
SPEAKER_00
Did you, you know, lose yourself?
2
SPEAKER_00
I would use different terms.
2
SPEAKER_01
Interesting.
2
SPEAKER_00
Sounds nicer.
2
SPEAKER_00
Even if somebody lies.
2
SPEAKER_00
Hey, man, you re lying to me.
2
SPEAKER_00
Louis is a... No.
2
SPEAKER_00
Louis, you re not... There s something you re missing.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s something you didn t tell me.
2
SPEAKER_00
I feel there s a part of the story I m missing here.
2
SPEAKER_00
I want you to be comfortable enough to tell me.
2
SPEAKER_01
So, you would say that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Sounds different.
2
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
2
SPEAKER_00
So, that s one.
2
SPEAKER_00
Think about the words coming out of your mouth.
2
SPEAKER_00
What do I sound like?
2
SPEAKER_00
And then more importantly, what do they hear when I speak?
2
SPEAKER_00
Not what do I think I m saying?
2
SPEAKER_00
Because everyone s like, oh, I just said this.
2
SPEAKER_00
What did I say?
2
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t matter what you think you said.
2
SPEAKER_00
What matters is what they hear when you speak based off of their viewpoint, their biases, their DNA, their genetic makeup, their drama, their trauma, all their stuff.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because they bring that in when they communicate.
2
SPEAKER_00
So you have to keep that in mind.
2
SPEAKER_01
Are you also thinking about, are you trying to learn about the background of the person before you have a conversation with them and get as much information on them before?
2
SPEAKER_01
Where they re from, who they are, you know.
2
SPEAKER_00
Depends what you want.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
What is your goal?
2
SPEAKER_00
Like what are you looking to get?
2
SPEAKER_00
And obviously sometimes time s a factor.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you re hiring somebody, I think when you, here s some tips, when you re doing your job interviews or you re bringing people on or you re working with people, you want to sit them down.
2
SPEAKER_00
You don t want to sit like the way we are here with a table between you and the person.
2
SPEAKER_00
You want an open space.
2
SPEAKER_00
So you ve got like two, put them on the sofas, sit down.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s openness.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is a barrier.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s just, it causes a break between us.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s also formality with the table.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I feel like I m being interviewed.
2
SPEAKER_01
More professional than as opposed to relaxed.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the thing is this, if you want to know who you re hiring, let s say, or who you re dealing with or who you re bringing into your space, you want openness and you want them to speak to you in an open way.
2
SPEAKER_01
Freely.
2
SPEAKER_00
So you can get all the information.
2
SPEAKER_00
Tell me about yourself.
2
SPEAKER_00
How did you grow up?
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, where are you from?
2
SPEAKER_00
No kidding.
2
SPEAKER_00
What s about this?
2
SPEAKER_00
What about that?
2
SPEAKER_00
Now you get them and then you flow into the other questions.
2
SPEAKER_00
But if people feel like they re being interviewed, that they re going to bring them, bring that.
2
SPEAKER_00
So you want to get people to feel comfortable and you want to have that openness.
2
SPEAKER_00
Also, when you have a table, it cuts off the lower body.
2
SPEAKER_01
You can t see their triggers.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s tells, there s tells.
2
SPEAKER_01
They cross their legs, they re fidgety.
2
SPEAKER_00
They re fidgety.
2
SPEAKER_00
Maybe you asked me a question about...
2
SPEAKER_00
Have you did you ever get fired from a job?
2
SPEAKER_00
And then I crossed my legs as soon as you asked me that question.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re not gonna say anything.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re gonna take a mental note.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, have you just crossed your legs right when I asked her that question?
2
SPEAKER_00
Why?
2
SPEAKER_00
I need to, I need to, sorry.
2
SPEAKER_01
I need to, I need to pay attention to that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right?
2
SPEAKER_00
So you want to just take notice.
2
SPEAKER_00
The whole goal is to be curious.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so if we can give it a term maybe, you need to Lewis house yourself.
2
SPEAKER_01
There you go.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
When people come in, you are super curious about them.
2
SPEAKER_01
Is there another line of communication that you use, maybe even unknowingly, that you use consistently that seems to just help you enroll people in more of what you want?
2
SPEAKER_02
So I do, I absolutely use the, what s the chance?
2
SPEAKER_02
Really?
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
So I ll use that when it feels like a circus, like a stalemate between the other attorney and look, what s the chance that your client s going to be able to do X, Y, and Z.
2
SPEAKER_02
Also, I will try to separate the attorney from the client.
2
SPEAKER_02
Same way I do with like the reception clerk versus the hotel.
2
SPEAKER_02
I make sure that I acknowledge them as the person, because I acknowledge their struggle of what they re going through.
2
SPEAKER_02
And so if I talk to the attorney of, look, I can only imagine all the updates you re having to do or all the work you re putting through, I know that this is how you re doing the best thing you can for your client.
2
SPEAKER_02
I mean, between me and you, what s the chance that we can do X, Y, and Z?
2
SPEAKER_02
Or if I were to do, or if I were to say, or if my client were, if I were to encourage my client to do this, is that something that I should do?
2
SPEAKER_02
And it gives them something to think about.
2
SPEAKER_02
The same way like at a, let s say at a hotel or something like that, I can only imagine you just been, how long s your shift?
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, seven hours.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I m like, gosh, yeah, that s going to be.
2
SPEAKER_02
And so you just, yeah, you kind of create that connection with them that says, I m talking to you individually as a person rather than seeing you as the whole then, because that s who they are.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, exactly.
2
SPEAKER_02
That s powerful.
2
SPEAKER_01
I want to go back to the, uh, the panic attacks for a moment.
2
SPEAKER_01
Um, does it sound like you, you really studied and research a lot on how you could manage and, and, and have a better relationship with the anxiety or the stress that you were having for those eight days?
2
SPEAKER_01
Have you had more panic attacks since the moment?
2
SPEAKER_02
They ve gotten less and less and less.
2
SPEAKER_01
Less and less, maybe like five, 10 minutes at a time or something.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
So, uh, well, I haven t had, I probably haven t had a panic attack.
2
SPEAKER_02
I ve gotten very close probably in the last like three weeks, but what it is, is like a sense of boiling water.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like I can feel the water boiling and then I might, and I can feel it in my body.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like I can feel it in my fingers.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
Or I m typically never somebody to shake my leg.
2
SPEAKER_02
But if all of a sudden my leg is shaking, then I m like, okay, something s up.
2
SPEAKER_02
And that ll tell me right away of, all right, what are we doing?
2
SPEAKER_02
What s going on?
2
SPEAKER_02
Be able to kind of check in with myself and how that s been, but it s progressed.
2
SPEAKER_02
Much better.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it really has.
2
SPEAKER_02
Therapy helps.
2
SPEAKER_02
And that was really the source, was not feeling alone in this kind of ecosystem that I didn t ask for.
2
SPEAKER_02
Like, this was never my goal.
2
SPEAKER_02
I was like, if I can only get so many followers.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it was like, let s just go.
2
SPEAKER_02
I don t know, I got a few minutes to talk to my phone.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
What has the relationship been like with your wife?
3
SPEAKER_01
and your kids since experiencing the rise of your audience, but also the stress and panic that you ve experienced over the last six months.
3
SPEAKER_01
How has your wife shown up for you?
3
SPEAKER_01
And how has it made you relate to your family differently?
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, having kids has made me much more just empathetic as a person.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I ll tell you that it s...
3
SPEAKER_00
It is a way that we relate to each other is when I see them start to get really emotional, I can see myself in it.
3
SPEAKER_00
My son looks a lot like me.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so like I can, it s very much this kind of weird inner child like dialogue, like I m telling them things that I wish I could have, I would have been told at, you know, hey man, it s okay to cry.
3
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
3
SPEAKER_00
Just let it out, let it out.
3
SPEAKER_00
I was never told that, but I m not gonna make that mistake.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so my son is extremely waterworks all the time and I love it.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, he s emotional on movies, I love it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so to see that where I go, no, no, no, I ve had that mistake of trying to put on this, Jefferson s got it all together.
3
SPEAKER_00
This mask.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, I got it all together.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s, it s, you are, just let it out, man.
3
SPEAKER_00
So it s all good.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s all good.
3
SPEAKER_00
And he will, he ll just cry and say, I can t help it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I ll say, you don t need to.
3
SPEAKER_00
You re good, man.
3
SPEAKER_00
You re good.
3
SPEAKER_00
He s, he s very, both of my kids are extremely empathetic with, with movies.
3
SPEAKER_00
I shared something before of, this was like not that long ago, and my son says,
3
SPEAKER_00
How your day was, Dad?
3
SPEAKER_00
It was good, buddy.
3
SPEAKER_00
It was good.
3
SPEAKER_00
And he was like, what d you do?
3
SPEAKER_00
I was like, well, it was just good.
3
SPEAKER_00
It was a good day.
3
SPEAKER_00
It was fine.
3
SPEAKER_00
Truthfully, it was not good.
3
SPEAKER_00
It was a really horrible, it was a rough day.
3
SPEAKER_00
It was a rough day.
3
SPEAKER_00
I was tired.
3
SPEAKER_00
And later on that evening, he came up to me again and he said,
3
SPEAKER_00
So why d you tell me your day was good when it wasn t?
3
SPEAKER_00
I said, what?
3
SPEAKER_00
He said, you said it was good, but you didn t say it like it was good.
3
SPEAKER_00
I was like, how did you know?
3
SPEAKER_00
He s like, you said it like it wasn t good.
3
SPEAKER_00
You said it like it was bad.
3
SPEAKER_00
They feel everything.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I was like,
3
SPEAKER_00
how are you this young?
3
SPEAKER_00
And like, he had already sensed it.
3
SPEAKER_00
He told me he was good, he wasn t.
3
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so that kind of aspect of it, when you say, how s my wife showing up for me?
3
SPEAKER_00
She s allowed me to have the time to kind of explore, hey, you need to make sure you re taking care of yourself.
3
SPEAKER_00
And she s awesome at supporting anything that I m after, and we support both of our careers.
3
SPEAKER_00
She has a full-time career.
3
SPEAKER_00
Her doing her thing in school and school,
3
SPEAKER_00
and I have my legal career.
3
SPEAKER_00
And in terms of the social media stuff, it doesn t affect anything.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like you could call it Finstagram, like nobody at my house, it doesn t exist at my house.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s just your dad, mom, kids, mayhem.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s all it is.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now she s very supportive of it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And they know that every once in a while dad will make a video.
3
SPEAKER_00
So because they wanna make videos.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m curious, with your upbringing, which sounds like you had a great upbringing, but also things that maybe you wish you would have had or experienced in certain ways from parents or life, and with what you re experiencing now, from building your career, getting married at a young age, in today s society, and now having this kind of following and presence, what are three lessons, if you could only teach three lessons to your kids,
3
SPEAKER_01
right now, what would those three lessons be that you wish you would have known growing up or that you did know and you want them to know?
3
SPEAKER_00
One would be always be authentic to who you are personally.
3
SPEAKER_00
Don t ever try to be anybody else than who you are.
3
SPEAKER_00
I can tell you that anytime I felt like I ve needed to be somebody else, it was the wrong call.
3
SPEAKER_00
Every time that I tried to be either more or less than just exactly who I am.
3
SPEAKER_00
I see it as just a floor in an elevator.
3
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t mean it s a better floor or not.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s just, you need to be exactly where you re meant to be.
3
SPEAKER_00
Two is, it s okay to feel like there are, it s okay to make mistakes.
3
SPEAKER_00
I grew up in a house where it was very,
3
SPEAKER_00
There s a lot of, I ll admit, let s put it on myself, expectations of being the best at everything you can be at whatever it was.
3
SPEAKER_00
I just enjoyed it.
3
SPEAKER_00
But the understanding that they don t have to put that pressure on themselves.
3
SPEAKER_00
And number three is be kind to everybody.
3
SPEAKER_00
Kindness never, it never changes.
3
SPEAKER_00
People value it now.
3
SPEAKER_00
They always have.
3
SPEAKER_01
We could talk for hours, man, but I want to wrap things up here in a few minutes.
3
SPEAKER_01
Um, Jefferson underscore Fisher on Instagram.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Uh, also all over social media, you can find you, I ll have everything linked up there.
3
SPEAKER_01
You ve got a, you ve got a book you re working on that we ll probably have you back out in the future when that comes out.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I want people to follow you on Instagram, Facebook, all the places.
3
SPEAKER_01
Hopefully we ll get you on YouTube soon.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
And, um,
3
SPEAKER_01
You do a daily video, man.
3
SPEAKER_01
Your video, I mean, almost every day, it seems like it s like every day you re given wisdom.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re given inspiration from daily lessons and.
3
SPEAKER_01
law and your experience in life.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s really inspiring to see you create from a place of generosity, from a place of service.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I want to acknowledge you for the consistency.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I also want to acknowledge you for opening up about the panics that you ve expressed and being vulnerable with your community and saying, Hey, listen, guys, this is something I ve never experienced.
3
SPEAKER_01
And
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, I love having this community, but also I feel this sense of pressure and this overwhelm that I ve never experienced in my life.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I think it s powerful to be talking about it because what we keep hidden and we hide continues to manifest and hurt us and stress us.
3
SPEAKER_01
So the fact that you re talking about it is probably allowing you to release some and relax some.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m not saying it s gonna solve every issue you have mentally or emotionally, but it s allowing you
3
SPEAKER_01
to set yourself free.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I acknowledge you for not having it all put together, not saying the perfect thing every time and allowing yourself to express how you feel, which sounds like is what your body needs.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
Thank you very much.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s very well put.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I acknowledge you for that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Um, it s interesting.
3
SPEAKER_01
There s a question I ask a lot of people.
3
SPEAKER_01
I ve got two final questions for you, but before I ask those, there s a question I ask a lot of people on here who,
3
SPEAKER_01
rise to success or audience growth quickly within a period of time of seeming overnight or months or a year, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
Where they get this big audience.
3
SPEAKER_01
Let me ask this question.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m just curious because I want people to listen to hear the response.
3
SPEAKER_01
So if you could go back before you posted your first Instagram video year and a half ago or whenever it was,
3
SPEAKER_01
Or when you did it and you didn t have that many followers.
3
SPEAKER_01
You could go back and ask yourself on a scale of one to 10, how much inner peace and
3
SPEAKER_01
self love you had for yourself.
3
SPEAKER_01
10 being a very high level in a humble way.
3
SPEAKER_01
One being zero piece, all chaos and stress inside of you.
3
SPEAKER_01
Where were you on a scale of one to 10 before the rise of social media success?
3
SPEAKER_01
Ten being very peaceful internally, and calm and confident, and less stress, and one being chaos.
3
SPEAKER_00
I d probably say I was a solid eight.
3
SPEAKER_00
There was a sense of, you sure you wanna put yourself on the phone in your car?
3
SPEAKER_00
You know friends are gonna see this, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like I m not worried about strangers.
3
SPEAKER_00
Sure.
3
SPEAKER_00
You worry about your friends.
3
SPEAKER_00
Sure.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, it s, it s easy.
3
SPEAKER_00
You could have all these followers who you really care about.
3
SPEAKER_00
Sometimes they wait, my, my friends saw this and they didn t like it.
3
SPEAKER_00
What do they think about me?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s much easier to get in your head about the people that are in your circle than the people that are outside.
3
SPEAKER_01
So you re a solid eight before you started doing all this.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then where would you say you currently are, you know, for the last few months consistently?
3
SPEAKER_00
How I ve been, I would say I m a nine right now.
3
SPEAKER_00
So you have more peace and more self-love.
3
SPEAKER_00
Really?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, it had it not been for what I went through at the beginning of this year, the anxiety.
3
SPEAKER_00
Interesting.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because it s made me, it s really made me hug myself in a way.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, interesting.
3
SPEAKER_00
And to, because I would get myself in a place of,
3
SPEAKER_00
I ve always been pretty good at, okay, I ll do a video and they ll either like it or they won t, I guess.
3
SPEAKER_00
You just go into the house and you live life.
3
SPEAKER_00
But it is a different aspect here of
4
SPEAKER_02
I very much feel that I am cultivating a community of like-minded people that, I mean, when I posted that video of explaining about my anxiety, that was a very difficult video for me to even get out.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s a very difficult video for me to even watch.
4
SPEAKER_02
But the outpouring of love that came from that was just,
4
SPEAKER_02
Now it feels like I have a lot more... It s weird, I feel more connected to them in a way than I did before.
4
SPEAKER_01
Well, vulnerability breeds connection.
4
SPEAKER_01
So, you were opening in a different way.
4
SPEAKER_01
Where were you on that scale, you know, in the beginning of the year when you were experiencing that month of panic?
4
SPEAKER_01
I was a two, maybe.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it was not good.
4
SPEAKER_02
From when it first started to about the time right before the panic attack, yeah, I had fallen far.
4
SPEAKER_01
This is, you know, and this is what I want people to, to understand because a lot of people that want to have more success, more followers, more financial opportunities, more things coming their way.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I don t know anyone, maybe one person was happier and more peaceful.
4
SPEAKER_01
a year or two after the big success came quickly.
4
SPEAKER_01
They were always a couple below what they were right before the press came, the opportunities came.
4
SPEAKER_01
Because they hadn t learned yet how to manage and navigate it.
4
SPEAKER_01
It sounds like you re learning now how to navigate it, where you feel peaceful, confident, calm.
4
SPEAKER_02
But had I not, I d be right there with them.
4
SPEAKER_01
and just trying to keep your head above water, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
And it always shocks me.
4
SPEAKER_01
I guess it shouldn t shock me anymore now, but most of us are not prepared emotionally or psychologically for
4
SPEAKER_01
audience growth that quickly, for financial growth that quickly.
4
SPEAKER_01
Although we think we want certain things, but we may not be emotionally, mentally, physically ready for the psychological pressure, which is what it sounds like you had.
4
SPEAKER_01
This pressure of this, now I have this audience, I have to make sure I deliver and don t give them the wrong information.
4
SPEAKER_01
What if I let them down?
4
SPEAKER_01
This pressure.
4
SPEAKER_01
which you can t really get away from unless you stop posting.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, unless you just stop.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
This was not something I sought out to do.
4
SPEAKER_02
It was like, I m gonna be an influencer, doggone it.
4
SPEAKER_02
No, it was like, I m just gonna make a video and let s see how it goes.
4
SPEAKER_01
Try to help a few people.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
Let s try.
4
SPEAKER_02
What do I like talking about?
4
SPEAKER_02
And that was the thing was...
4
SPEAKER_02
I did it because I like talking about it.
4
SPEAKER_02
And if they like listening, I guess they ll listen.
4
SPEAKER_02
And then I asked people to follow me.
4
SPEAKER_02
At the end of it, turns out they did.
4
SPEAKER_02
And then it was just like a whole different ball game where all of a sudden you look around and go, wait, if I compare this to the size of my current city and my town that I m in.
4
SPEAKER_02
This is like 50 times the size of that, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, not even close.
4
SPEAKER_01
Right, right.
4
SPEAKER_02
That becomes and then I had a buddy of mine who was like, oh, you know, you have X amount followers.
4
SPEAKER_02
That s like X amount of State like Dallas Cowboy Stadium or something.
4
SPEAKER_02
I was like
4
SPEAKER_02
Why would you tell me that?
4
SPEAKER_02
It was the first thing that kind of came to me.
4
SPEAKER_00
Sure, sure.
4
SPEAKER_02
But it s like you said, absolutely.
4
SPEAKER_02
I was not emotionally prepared on that level for that amount of eyes, that amount of pressure.
4
SPEAKER_02
And it wasn t until that my body
4
SPEAKER_02
Literally shut down Wow that said now we got it We got to wake up and make sure you re taking care of yourself Because that that to your at was quickly starting to go into the negative exactly and that s where real bad stuff happens in big time Yeah, if you don t address it, so
4
SPEAKER_01
I acknowledge you, man, for doing the work and for continually doing it, because healing is a journey.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so I m glad you re on that journey.
4
SPEAKER_01
Feel free to reach out anytime you want some support or just a chat.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, absolutely.
4
SPEAKER_02
Absolutely.
4
SPEAKER_02
No, it s meant so much that you ve been here.
4
SPEAKER_02
For sure, man.
4
SPEAKER_02
That means a lot to me.
4
SPEAKER_01
For sure, man.
4
SPEAKER_01
This is a question I ask everyone towards the end called the three truths.
4
SPEAKER_01
So imagine you get to live as long as you want, but it s your last day on Earth.
4
SPEAKER_01
You get to accomplish all the dreams and experiences you want to have.
4
SPEAKER_01
But for whatever reason, all of your material, your content, your videos, the books you make, all these things, they have to go to the next place with you, or they re no longer in this world.
4
SPEAKER_01
This conversation is gone.
4
SPEAKER_01
But it s your last day on earth and you get to leave behind three truths, three lessons you would share with the world.
4
SPEAKER_01
And this is all we have to remember your wisdom by.
4
SPEAKER_01
What would be those three truths or lessons for you?
4
SPEAKER_02
Number one is the best piece of advice I received from my grandfather, who was an old East Texas attorney.
4
SPEAKER_02
He said, boy, you can t look back and plan a straight row.
4
SPEAKER_02
That s always stuck with me.
4
SPEAKER_02
meaning encouraging people to be in the moment, in the present.
4
SPEAKER_02
If you look at what you re doing rather than looking for the next worry, your head s always gonna be in the right place.
4
SPEAKER_02
Number two is you treat people however you wanna be treated.
4
SPEAKER_02
Just that very basic golden rule that we ve all heard, but sometimes it s the things we ve heard the most that we really have soaked up the least.
4
SPEAKER_02
And too many times,
4
SPEAKER_02
I ve you know, we skip over it and number three would be that at any time that you can Show person kindness because you you ll never regret it There s so many things that I feel like generally generationally in our existence that we just
4
SPEAKER_02
got wrong, it wasn t our fault, we just weren t ready.
4
SPEAKER_02
We thought medicine was something different versus what we think medicine is now, or you look at how we handled punishment or entertainment versus now, but kindness is, it s not affected from inflation or recession, it doesn t depreciate.
4
SPEAKER_02
A little kindness can be invaluable.
4
SPEAKER_01
I love it, it was a great truce, man.
4
SPEAKER_01
Final question, Jefferson, what s your definition of greatness?
4
SPEAKER_02
Greatness is being able to show up for who you are in every level and every stage that you re meant to be in a way that spreads joy.
4
SPEAKER_00
If someone wants to get a better price on something.
4
SPEAKER_00
So that was, I think, first of all, before I ask that question, that was the second, I think, mistake.
4
SPEAKER_00
Was there another big mistake people make in negotiations?
4
SPEAKER_00
The price, extreme price anchoring, using too much leverage to try to club someone.
4
SPEAKER_00
Was there another big one?
4
SPEAKER_03
What a lot of people do that s actually taught out there a lot, which is really bad, is continue to ask for stuff after you ve made a deal.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like ask for free stuff.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s the worst, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
We made a good deal, here s a win-win, and now you re asking for more and more and more.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s gonna leave a sour taste in someone s mouth.
4
SPEAKER_03
That s every time.
4
SPEAKER_03
And that s taught out there regularly.
4
SPEAKER_03
Really?
4
SPEAKER_03
There was a negotiation guru from the 80s, and I can t remember what he called it, but he gave the example,
4
SPEAKER_03
You go out and you get a custom-made suit.
4
SPEAKER_03
And you ve made the deal for the suit, and one of the guys is measuring you.
4
SPEAKER_03
You say, so how many free times do I get with that?
4
SPEAKER_03
And he said, that s a great way to get free things, free little things, after they made the deal.
4
SPEAKER_00
Throw in a pocket square, throw in a couple of ties, throw in a couple of legs.
4
SPEAKER_03
Whatever it is.
4
SPEAKER_03
And what that does is make the person you did it to hate you, which they re going to resent it.
4
SPEAKER_03
And if they have the opportunity to fail to comply with any term, they will do that.
4
SPEAKER_03
Now, unfortunately, that s taught really extensively
4
SPEAKER_03
And it s done a business all the time.
4
SPEAKER_03
People call it scope creep, feature creep.
4
SPEAKER_03
Like it drives every single business person crazy because they don t know how to deal with it.
4
SPEAKER_03
Now, the black swan method, you know, you might say if you were good at how questions, you might say how can I give you free ties and continue to want to do business with you?
4
SPEAKER_03
You know, how can I be a great tailor for you if you ask me for free stuff and it cuts my margin?
4
SPEAKER_03
You know, make what they ask for the obstacle to what they want.
4
SPEAKER_03
Either what you want as a path or if what they want is bad, it s the obstacle.
4
SPEAKER_03
You know, how can I serve the needs of your family if you re cutting into my profit margins?
4
SPEAKER_03
You know, there s gotta be a way to wake somebody up to it.
4
SPEAKER_03
because a lot of people have been taught that they don t know any better.
4
SPEAKER_03
Like if I d have stuck to that training that I learned from this guy back in the 1980s, I d have thought it was okay, because I m getting free ties all over the place.
4
SPEAKER_03
Like a lot of people, if they don t know any better, how do you wake them up so that if they only knew, they d change?
4
SPEAKER_03
Now there s some people that are doing it on purpose.
4
SPEAKER_03
If you do something like that to me, because you didn t know any better,
4
SPEAKER_03
Let me see if I can wake you up.
4
SPEAKER_03
If I can wake you up, awesome.
4
SPEAKER_03
We ve got a great long-term relationship.
4
SPEAKER_03
If I can t wake you up, I now know, and I m probably like, okay, cool.
4
SPEAKER_03
This is the last deal I make with this guy.
4
SPEAKER_03
One and done, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_03
This is a one and done.
4
SPEAKER_03
I m out.
4
SPEAKER_03
But I need to know if you just did it by accident.
4
SPEAKER_03
I got a job negotiation.
4
SPEAKER_03
Recently brought some
5
SPEAKER_01
somebody onto my company.
5
SPEAKER_01
Thought we had the deal settled.
5
SPEAKER_01
And the new employee.
5
SPEAKER_01
New employee.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
Because employment contracts like any other.
5
SPEAKER_01
And this person brings up a bunch of other stuff after we ve laid out the terms, we ve written the offer letter, we sent the offer letter.
5
SPEAKER_01
Offer letter doesn t get signed.
5
SPEAKER_01
Silence.
5
SPEAKER_01
Not a good sign.
5
SPEAKER_01
My director of operations, who knows no oriented questions,
5
SPEAKER_01
She s just pressing an email, have you given up on signing the offer letter?
5
SPEAKER_01
Immediately comes back with a bunch of, you know, not ridiculous benefits.
5
SPEAKER_01
More asks.
5
SPEAKER_01
More asks, which are not on a plate.
5
SPEAKER_01
Some of them are like, wow, that was interesting, I never thought of that one.
5
SPEAKER_01
Nah, we can t do that, not in a million years.
5
SPEAKER_01
This is stuff I aspire to.
5
SPEAKER_01
But not you now.
5
SPEAKER_01
We can t do it now, but no, I like this one.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s just not in the package now.
5
SPEAKER_01
But my director of operations is like, I never had somebody come back.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I m like, okay, first thing I gotta do is I gotta find out, did this person just not know any better?
5
SPEAKER_01
So I engaged in the conversation and I said, all right, so however this goes, I want you to understand two things.
5
SPEAKER_01
First of all, I m glad it came up now as opposed to six months from now.
5
SPEAKER_01
But secondly, this is a bad habit to bring stuff up after the deal has been cut.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I m guessing you just didn t know any better, and you were uncomfortable bringing it up.
5
SPEAKER_01
But if you come on board first, you ve got to understand, we don t do this to people.
5
SPEAKER_01
And you ve got to learn, we work all the little stuff out before we think we have an agreement, instead of going for the little stuff after the agreement.
5
SPEAKER_01
And this person was like, hey, I didn t know, and my intention is to help build the company, and I appreciate you letting me know, and I understand where you re coming from.
5
SPEAKER_01
They were genuine about it.
5
SPEAKER_01
They were very genuine.
5
SPEAKER_01
I needed to know that.
5
SPEAKER_01
Was this person advised to do this?
5
SPEAKER_01
Did they do it by accident?
5
SPEAKER_01
Or do they do that because this is going to be the predictor of future behavior, which now we have a real problem.
5
SPEAKER_01
Because if this is a habit that you re born with, you are not gonna last and you can t represent me.
5
SPEAKER_01
Because the people that work on my team are also my ambassadors.
5
SPEAKER_01
I gotta find out which one it is.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I go back and we talk it through and we settle everything out.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I got a list of things to aspire to for employee benefits
5
SPEAKER_01
Because these are great things.
5
SPEAKER_00
Sure.
5
SPEAKER_00
So to finish that up, one of the worst things you can do is ask for more and more and more and more things after the negotiation has been agreed on.
5
SPEAKER_00
Right.
5
SPEAKER_00
Do that before the final agreement is what I m hearing you say.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yep.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
5
SPEAKER_00
If someone s looking to buy.
5
SPEAKER_01
Nice paraphrase, by the way.
5
SPEAKER_00
You want to make sure I capture that.
5
SPEAKER_00
If someone is looking to buy, wanting to buy something, acquire something, whether they re buying a business, a car, a house,
5
SPEAKER_00
some potential expensive item, a jewelry, something of more value than $1,000.
5
SPEAKER_00
And they might be able to negotiate a lower price.
5
SPEAKER_00
You mentioned the extreme price anchoring.
5
SPEAKER_00
how that is a mistake, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
There s a house for a million dollars, I ll give you 200 grand for it, right?
5
SPEAKER_00
But you wanna get a better deal.
5
SPEAKER_00
Maybe it s a Rolex, maybe it s a car, maybe it s a house, maybe you wanna acquire a business, whatever it is, something of higher value.
5
SPEAKER_00
An engagement ring, you re gonna marry someone.
5
SPEAKER_00
Let them make their profit off somebody else.
5
SPEAKER_00
What should be the lower percentage?
5
SPEAKER_00
on a higher item of value.
5
SPEAKER_00
What should the initial offer be?
5
SPEAKER_00
You want to get a better deal.
5
SPEAKER_00
So you don t want to pay a million dollars for a home, but you really want the home.
5
SPEAKER_00
You don t want to pay $3,000 for the diamond ring, the engagement ring, but you really want that ring.
5
SPEAKER_00
how low of a percentage should you go to anchor in order for you to feel like, oh, I got a great deal and I got the thing I wanted and they didn t get screwed over.
5
SPEAKER_00
You know what I mean?
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, depending upon the context, I mean, like 30% is a good rule of thumb.
5
SPEAKER_01
To start at.
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, for a target, like if you, and again, very, very context-driven.
5
SPEAKER_01
Sure.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like for example, I m in Macy s one time and picking out this jacket, girl I m with really likes it.
5
SPEAKER_01
She searches this thing extensively.
5
SPEAKER_01
She finds like a thread out of place.
5
SPEAKER_01
And she goes like, watch me get 10% off on this jacket.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I m like.
5
SPEAKER_01
I can get 30% by being nice.
5
SPEAKER_00
No way.
5
SPEAKER_01
Tell me more.
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, like in every transaction, I look at it as there s an aggravation tax.
5
SPEAKER_01
Now, the person that you re dealing with has already built in the aggravation tax because of all the aggravating people that have come through the door ahead of them.
5
SPEAKER_01
So there s an aggravation penalty, there s an annoyance tax, there s an aggravation tax that s already there on a price.
5
SPEAKER_01
Now, if you re not aggravating, you don t need to pay the aggravation tax.
5
SPEAKER_01
Interesting.
5
SPEAKER_00
Let somebody else pay that aggravation tax.
5
SPEAKER_00
And you benefit from them actually paying that tax.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, let somebody else pay it.
5
SPEAKER_01
If I m not aggravating, why should I pay the aggravating tax?
5
SPEAKER_01
So, you know, this young lady, she d gotten 10% off on a regular basis.
5
SPEAKER_01
I will be demanding 10% of the annoyance tax when there s another 20% to be gained.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like you don t, so many people don t realize how much money they re leaving on the table.
5
SPEAKER_01
Really?
5
SPEAKER_01
Like massive amounts of money.
5
SPEAKER_01
On any given, the difference between 10% off and 30% off.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like they got a way to give you a better deal if they feel like it.
5
SPEAKER_01
So how do you get them to feel like it?
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, yeah, great, there you go, exactly.
5
SPEAKER_01
Again, the approach, very similar to the hotel thing.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, there s a strategy where we sort of bundle the skills in a black swan method.
5
SPEAKER_01
We call it the accusations audit.
5
SPEAKER_01
The accusations audit.
5
SPEAKER_01
Accusations audit.
5
SPEAKER_01
Let me do an audit of all the names you would call me if I m gonna do this.
5
SPEAKER_01
Uh-huh.
5
SPEAKER_01
You say this?
5
SPEAKER_01
You say it to yourself.
5
SPEAKER_01
Okay not today.
5
SPEAKER_01
Because I need to come up with a list.
5
SPEAKER_01
So again it s like look
5
SPEAKER_01
You get annoying people come through here all day long, every day, want something for nothing.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m going to look like another one of these annoying jerks.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s really demanding and rub you the wrong way.
5
SPEAKER_01
Don t appreciate how hard it is for you to work in this jewelry store, this car dealership, this wherever you are.
5
SPEAKER_01
You are knocking yourself out in a tough sales job.
5
SPEAKER_01
You re trying to feed your family.
5
SPEAKER_01
People are coming here trying to take food out of your mouth.
5
SPEAKER_01
because how do they see it?
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, it s not about you.
5
SPEAKER_01
And it s not about, it s really not sympathy.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, the difference between sympathy and empathy.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, I feel your pain.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like I ve been there too.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, like I m a regular guy like you.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like don t give me that regular guy stuff.
5
SPEAKER_01
So, but you look at people like me who want something for nothing and come walking in all the time.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, you look at us as wanting discounts and you know, and you re trying to feed your family.
5
SPEAKER_01
Now suddenly this person is like, oh wow.
5
SPEAKER_00
Forget it.
5
SPEAKER_01
This is not the other annoying jerk that came in here.
5
SPEAKER_01
Now they re starting to open up.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then, you know, you talked before about being playful.
5
SPEAKER_01
Being playful about this.
5
SPEAKER_00
can be a really big deal.
5
SPEAKER_00
I ve gotten so many things for free for being playful or upgrades or discounts just by, let me just say a friendly joke or just something funny.
5
SPEAKER_00
Let me just be goofy and dance in front of them and be like, what is this guy doing?
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you don t gotta pay the aggravation tax.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then plus,
5
SPEAKER_01
See, Sean says you re 31% smarter in a positive frame of mind.
5
SPEAKER_01
Not only have you put the person in a better mood, you now got them thinking about options.
5
SPEAKER_01
What can they do?
5
SPEAKER_01
How can they help you?
5
SPEAKER_01
What can they get away with?
5
SPEAKER_01
How can they shortcut the TSA line?
5
SPEAKER_01
What s the code for the employee discount?
5
SPEAKER_01
In the same place where I m trying to get this 30% or so off,
5
SPEAKER_01
And I m joking around with this guy.
5
SPEAKER_01
Sure.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, and one of the things you get to see as a human being, I m like, well, I m Chris.
5
SPEAKER_01
Is there a Chris discount?
5
SPEAKER_01
What kind of Chris discount?
5
SPEAKER_01
And they laugh at that.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so, and I m still not getting enough of a discount.
5
SPEAKER_01
And finally I go like, look, give me the employee discount.
5
SPEAKER_01
I ve been joking around.
5
SPEAKER_01
I smile when I say this.
5
SPEAKER_01
This guy goes like, if I give you the employee discount, I m going to pay for this thing myself.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I go, I ll pay you back.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I m laughing and he laughs.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so he looks at the machine and I says, wait right here.
5
SPEAKER_01
And he walks around and I see him and I walks up to a person and I perceive to be the manager.
5
SPEAKER_01
And he s whispering in the manager s ear.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I see this manager standing there going like, no, no.
5
SPEAKER_00
No, really?
5
SPEAKER_00
And he comes walking.
6
SPEAKER_00
walk him back and another employee intercepts him, whispers in his ear and I see his eyes light up and he walks over and he plugs in a discount for me and we get the 30% off.
6
SPEAKER_00
But I was joking with him, I was showing I knew what it looked like from his perspective.
6
SPEAKER_00
I m getting myself out of this aggravation tax thing.
6
SPEAKER_00
Let somebody else pay the demanding, aggressive, annoying,
6
SPEAKER_02
Mm-hmm.
6
SPEAKER_00
You go in there and you brighten somebody else s day up.
6
SPEAKER_00
You leave the world a better place.
6
SPEAKER_00
You get some practice in.
6
SPEAKER_00
Mm-hmm.
6
SPEAKER_00
Because you want that confidence for the big negotiation.
6
SPEAKER_00
Right.
6
SPEAKER_00
And all these things work for you.
6
SPEAKER_00
And you end up feeling better about the day yourself.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
6
SPEAKER_00
You had a fun interaction.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
And you got a discount.
6
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
6
SPEAKER_01
What are the social cues or psychological behaviors, body language, responses that people have before you take the polygraph test to know whether or not they re actually telling the truth?
6
SPEAKER_03
Everybody would assume that the polygraph was the lie detector.
6
SPEAKER_03
Like you just ask the question, come on in, have a seat, Louis, let s hook you up.
6
SPEAKER_03
Did you steal when you were a kid?
6
SPEAKER_03
Did you steal that gum or did you steal that?
6
SPEAKER_03
And then it just tells me everything.
6
SPEAKER_03
And it doesn t really work that way.
6
SPEAKER_03
Like typically the lie detector is the person.
6
SPEAKER_03
So you sit across from a person, you have a conversation.
6
SPEAKER_03
And as we re discussing something, let s say you re applying to the US Secret Service, we ll make you a recruit.
6
SPEAKER_01
Okay, give it to me.
6
SPEAKER_03
And so we re asking you all these questions about your education, your background, drugs, whatever it is.
6
SPEAKER_03
And let s say we get to, I say to you, Louis, did you ever steal anything?
6
SPEAKER_03
And so now I look at, are there any shifts or any changes?
6
SPEAKER_03
Do you change the direction?
6
SPEAKER_02
No.
6
SPEAKER_03
People are usually not that obvious, you know, there, but you can see, you can see something, you can feel it.
6
SPEAKER_03
It s also feeling people.
6
SPEAKER_03
I think that gets dismissed quite a bit that it s not just see, hear, you know, it s like, it s also, you can feel another human being.
6
SPEAKER_03
You can, and it s intuitive and you should, we should allow that and listen to that more rather than shut that down.
6
SPEAKER_03
But it would be, you know, if I would ask you that, I would hear the way you responded.
6
SPEAKER_03
Did you respond similarly to all the other questions the same way?
6
SPEAKER_03
Is your, you know, let s say if I said, Louis, did you ever, you know, I asked you all these other historical questions and you re like, no, no, no.
6
SPEAKER_03
And then I say, Louis, did you, have you ever stolen anything?
6
SPEAKER_03
Absolutely not.
6
SPEAKER_03
So something like that, as small as that, I may mark that.
6
SPEAKER_03
I was like, okay, he said no, no, no for everything else, but here he said absolutely not.
6
SPEAKER_01
Interesting.
6
SPEAKER_03
Why is it a bit more emphatic?
6
SPEAKER_01
He cares more about either protecting something or that it actually isn t the truth.
6
SPEAKER_01
Maybe.
6
SPEAKER_01
And he doesn t want that to be out of sight.
6
SPEAKER_03
But I will notice that it s different, that you did something different.
6
SPEAKER_03
Even if you, no, it could be a very subtle thing, or you might not give me anything.
6
SPEAKER_03
There s some people, and I ve had those people where it s just like,
6
SPEAKER_01
poker face all the way through.
6
SPEAKER_03
I don t wanna say they re professional liars, but some people would come in, especially if it was a criminal case, and they re guarding the truth really hard, and you have to try to figure out what that is.
6
SPEAKER_03
Or some people come in, and it s, I swear to God, God knows I would never do such a thing.
6
SPEAKER_01
On my mom, on my grave.
6
SPEAKER_03
Those are usually red flags, unless it s a culture or a person who typically does it.
6
SPEAKER_03
So if they always say, I swear to God, I swear to my mom,
6
SPEAKER_03
then it would be like, look, this is part of this person s natural language, or maybe in their culture, they re referred to God quite a bit.
6
SPEAKER_03
But if it s not, and then you start doing that, then again, that s a red flag.
6
SPEAKER_03
So that s what you re really looking for rather than we have some of these cookie cutter things.
6
SPEAKER_03
It s like, everybody does this, everybody does that.
6
SPEAKER_03
Now, are these things I m talking about indicators?
6
SPEAKER_03
They are, but you may do them and I may not.
6
SPEAKER_03
I may do something else.
6
SPEAKER_01
What do you do when you lie?
6
SPEAKER_03
What do I do when I lie?
6
SPEAKER_01
We all lie at something, right?
6
SPEAKER_03
We do, I do, I do.
6
SPEAKER_01
Small or big?
6
SPEAKER_03
My husband s like, did you have a donut this morning?
6
SPEAKER_03
No, I didn t have a donut.
6
SPEAKER_01
What do you lie about the most?
6
SPEAKER_01
Professional or personal?
6
SPEAKER_01
And what in each category?
6
SPEAKER_03
Maybe like if I m mad.
6
SPEAKER_03
because I have a pretty bad temper, so it s like, oh no, I m fine.
6
SPEAKER_03
Because sometimes I ll know, I m like, you know, I have a temper, and sometimes I know I m being irrational, and I don t want to open up a whole conversation, so I ll just be like, no, I m okay, I ll leave it, because I ll know it s me.
6
SPEAKER_03
I m trying to think, what do I lie about?
6
SPEAKER_03
Maybe work, if it s a project I don t want to do.
6
SPEAKER_03
But usually that s what you have agents and managers for, because they do it for you.
6
SPEAKER_03
They shut it down for you.
6
SPEAKER_03
I m trying to think.
6
SPEAKER_03
I mean, we all lie, but I try to keep it like, usually for me, it s like, cause I m like a, you know, I like donuts and I like things, cookies.
6
SPEAKER_03
So my husband s like a health fanatic.
6
SPEAKER_03
So he ll be like, how d you eat today?
6
SPEAKER_03
You know?
6
SPEAKER_03
I was like, oh, it was okay.
6
SPEAKER_03
I was pretty solid, you know?
6
SPEAKER_03
Oh, okay.
6
SPEAKER_03
So he ll know what I m trying to say.
6
SPEAKER_03
For example.
6
SPEAKER_01
Is there such a thing as person being radically honest all the time?
6
SPEAKER_03
No, I don t, I ve never, I ve not come across that.
6
SPEAKER_03
But I think, here s the thing.
6
SPEAKER_03
It s okay to lie because, have you ever been very, very, very honest, maybe with a person and then felt afterward, you know, I don t, you feel a bit exposed and you feel like, you know, I wish I didn t share this much with this person.
6
SPEAKER_03
Afterward you kind of have that remorse.
6
SPEAKER_03
because we feel like it s a protection mechanism.
6
SPEAKER_03
I don t want to tell you everything about me.
6
SPEAKER_03
I don t want to be an open book.
6
SPEAKER_03
And so I may, and it may not be a lie, so by omission, so in the meeting, if somebody s pitching me a project or I m talking about something, I don t like it, or I don t like the direction it s going, I may not say, I don t like this.
6
SPEAKER_03
I may say, thank you, you know, let me think about that.
6
SPEAKER_03
Meanwhile, I wanna say, no way, I m not doing it, that s terrible.
6
SPEAKER_03
So that technically would be a lie.
6
SPEAKER_03
I m like, you know what, thank you, it let me think about that.
6
SPEAKER_03
But I know I can t respond the first way, shuts people down.
6
SPEAKER_03
That s why I feel like we hear people say, say no.
6
SPEAKER_03
Being able to say no to people more so because a lot of us have- To protect your time, your space, your energy.
6
SPEAKER_03
Yes, and that s wonderful, but don t say no.
6
SPEAKER_03
Find other ways to say no.
6
SPEAKER_03
No is ugly, no is mean, no is hurtful.
6
SPEAKER_03
So I can say, thank you so much, I ll let you know.
6
SPEAKER_03
I m not really sure if I m able to, let me think on that.
6
SPEAKER_03
Find alternative ways to let people down.
6
SPEAKER_01
Why is that?
6
SPEAKER_01
Why not?
6
SPEAKER_03
To preserve the relationship.
6
SPEAKER_01
Because when you say no to someone, even if it s a friend, they might take it personally.
6
SPEAKER_03
It stings.
6
SPEAKER_03
Right?
6
SPEAKER_03
Why are you saying no to me?
6
SPEAKER_03
Why do you have to say like that?
6
SPEAKER_03
You can say, you can reject people in a thoughtful way, in a professional way.
6
SPEAKER_03
And it just, it depends.
6
SPEAKER_03
Like, do you care about the relationship?
6
SPEAKER_03
And if you do, your no, your hard no can hurt people s feelings.
6
SPEAKER_03
People become sensitive because you re rejecting them.
6
SPEAKER_03
And so I m going to think of a different way to say no.
6
SPEAKER_03
that s not gonna impact you as much.
6
SPEAKER_03
It s really using language thoughtfully.
6
SPEAKER_03
So for example, you brought up lying.
6
SPEAKER_03
I love that.
6
SPEAKER_03
And you said, you know, when I was a kid, I lied.
6
SPEAKER_03
So I would never say to you, Louis, you re a liar.
6
SPEAKER_03
Or Louis, no, Louis, you re lying to me.
6
SPEAKER_03
I would say, Louis, I know you re not being truthful with me.
6
SPEAKER_03
Louis, you re holding something back from me.
6
SPEAKER_03
Sounds different.
6
SPEAKER_03
So it s the same way with language.
6
SPEAKER_03
We throw our words out and we don t realize
6
SPEAKER_03
that they land on someone.
6
SPEAKER_03
And so then we scratch our heads wondering, why did this conversation not go well?
6
SPEAKER_03
It s this person s the problem.
6
SPEAKER_03
When we don t have the ability to think about how did I deliver this?
6
SPEAKER_03
So if it s a business relationship that s important to you, but you want to say no to this, you want to think of a great way to say no.
6
SPEAKER_03
So we want to think about how do we let people down without hurting their identity, going back to identity.
6
SPEAKER_01
Was there ever a time when you were interviewing or interrogating someone and you didn t believe them, ever, but they were telling 100% the truth?
6
SPEAKER_03
Oh my god, you just reminded me of this case.
6
SPEAKER_01
You re just like, I know this person s lying to me, but at the end of the day, everything he said was pretty true or almost 100% true.
6
SPEAKER_03
This was, I ve never, I had, it was such a simple case and it was not even for a lot of money.
6
SPEAKER_03
It was an ATM scam.
6
SPEAKER_03
This man was going to ATMs and he was taking, stealing money.
6
SPEAKER_03
Somebody would go in, use their credit card, he d come from behind, take money.
6
SPEAKER_03
Very simple.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like put them up with a gun or something?
6
SPEAKER_03
No, no, no, just follow them in.
6
SPEAKER_03
There s these little skimmers that they put on top of the machine so when you scan your card that it would pick up your information as well and then you could go
7
SPEAKER_00
There s all these different scams.
7
SPEAKER_00
But when you go to the ATM, there s a camera there.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s got your full picture.
7
SPEAKER_00
So I have a picture of this guy, my perpetrator.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s a picture of him.
7
SPEAKER_00
I see him, his face.
7
SPEAKER_00
He s wearing a hat.
7
SPEAKER_00
He s wearing a New York Knicks hat.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, here s my guy.
7
SPEAKER_00
All right, you know, I ve got it.
7
SPEAKER_00
All I got to do is lay the picture on.
7
SPEAKER_00
So he shows up for his interview wearing the same New York Knicks hat.
7
SPEAKER_00
So I start speaking to him.
7
SPEAKER_00
I don t take out my evidence, right?
7
SPEAKER_00
Cause I m, I m saving that.
7
SPEAKER_00
Cause I m, that s my, this is a slam dunk.
7
SPEAKER_00
I was like, and he didn t even steal a lot.
7
$500.
7
SPEAKER_00
It was something small.
7
SPEAKER_00
I don t know how it landed in my lap, but it did.
7
SPEAKER_00
And sir, you took the money.
7
SPEAKER_00
No, no, miss.
7
SPEAKER_00
I swear to God, I would never do that, sir.
7
SPEAKER_00
We have this.
7
SPEAKER_00
So I m doing this with him for like 15 minutes.
7
SPEAKER_00
And this was a mistake on my part.
7
SPEAKER_01
We have evidence, we have proof, we have video footage of you at the scene.
7
SPEAKER_00
No, never me, never me.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I pull out, I think I m being slick, and I pull out my photo of him.
7
SPEAKER_00
Boom, right on the table.
7
SPEAKER_00
Who s that, sir?
7
SPEAKER_00
Right, and I m sitting there, I m all smug, I m like, I got this guy.
7
SPEAKER_00
And he takes it, and he looks at it, he s like, looks like me.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, he looks like me.
7
SPEAKER_00
He s not me.
7
SPEAKER_00
I was like, what?
7
SPEAKER_00
That s you.
7
SPEAKER_00
He s like, it looks like me.
7
SPEAKER_00
That s not me.
7
SPEAKER_00
Same hat, New York Knicks hat.
7
SPEAKER_00
The guy shirt that I m wearing right now.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, no.
7
SPEAKER_00
And it was a craziest interview.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I remember it was for money.
7
SPEAKER_00
It was not for a lot of money.
7
SPEAKER_00
In fact, when it came to financial crimes, crimes that had to do with money, it was actually harder to get people to confess to those.
7
SPEAKER_01
Why?
7
SPEAKER_00
Less guilt.
7
SPEAKER_01
Less guilt, they didn t hurt someone physically.
7
SPEAKER_01
They might ve hurt them financially.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yes, I m at home, I m sitting behind my computer, I m in my fuzzy slippers, or even if I m doing it at the ATM, I m not stealing from you, I m stealing from the bank.
7
SPEAKER_00
But it s different when I walk by you and actually put my hand in your pocket.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s different when I go into your home and I assault you.
7
SPEAKER_00
So there s that level of guilt.
7
SPEAKER_00
But when it s money, and especially if you steal it from an institution,
7
SPEAKER_02
Zero guilt.
7
SPEAKER_00
Those were the hardest to get.
7
SPEAKER_00
But yeah, that was my guy.
7
SPEAKER_00
I will never forget him.
7
SPEAKER_00
That s why I started laughing.
7
SPEAKER_00
Was it him or was it not him?
7
SPEAKER_00
It was him.
7
SPEAKER_00
We arrested him anyway because we had the proof.
7
SPEAKER_00
But it s always great to get, it s always helpful to have a confession because it really just kind of seals everything.
7
SPEAKER_00
You ve got the evidence, you ve got this, the person said it.
7
SPEAKER_01
But he never agreed to it.
7
SPEAKER_00
No, no.
7
SPEAKER_01
He said, it looks like me, but it s not me.
7
SPEAKER_00
No, same New York Snick hat.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I don t know.
7
SPEAKER_00
I guess he s from New York.
7
SPEAKER_00
Who doesn t like the Knicks?
7
SPEAKER_00
He just nothing.
7
SPEAKER_00
And you could see his face.
7
SPEAKER_00
Looks like me.
7
SPEAKER_00
I got nothing from him.
7
SPEAKER_01
Really?
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
So he never actually told the truth, but it was in fact him.
7
SPEAKER_00
It was him.
7
SPEAKER_00
I mean, we had evidence, we had prints, we had all that stuff.
7
SPEAKER_00
Sure, sure, sure.
7
SPEAKER_00
But yeah, no, he, you know, to the end.
7
SPEAKER_00
Nope, not me.
7
SPEAKER_01
Could you tell?
7
SPEAKER_01
I couldn t tell.
7
SPEAKER_01
You couldn t tell he was lying or not?
7
SPEAKER_00
I couldn t tell.
7
SPEAKER_00
No, he was so believable.
7
SPEAKER_00
But I knew going in that he was my guy.
7
SPEAKER_01
Right.
7
SPEAKER_00
So that s why.
7
SPEAKER_00
I was like, I know it s him, but it was just like, stoic.
7
SPEAKER_00
And there s a moment I m like, is it not him?
7
SPEAKER_00
Right?
7
SPEAKER_00
These are so good.
7
SPEAKER_00
You re like, am I seeing this right?
7
SPEAKER_00
Turn the photo around.
7
SPEAKER_00
I m like, no, no, it s him.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s him.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s him.
7
SPEAKER_00
No, no, this is you.
7
SPEAKER_00
So some people are that good.
7
SPEAKER_00
Some people are that good.
7
SPEAKER_00
They will, some people, and I think this is, look, this was also somebody who committed a lot of crimes.
7
SPEAKER_01
And he was used to it.
7
SPEAKER_00
He s used to it.
7
SPEAKER_00
So certain people who are,
7
SPEAKER_00
who lie a lot usually become better at it.
7
SPEAKER_00
Or they don t feel bad, they become better at masking it.
7
SPEAKER_00
You obviously have a great conscience and so it bothered you and so all your tells were shown.
7
SPEAKER_00
You couldn t conceal it.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s like your heart is pumping, like your chest is tight, like your throat is clenching, you re like, ugh.
7
SPEAKER_00
It bothered you.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_00
Which is a healthy thing.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s actually a healthy thing when it bothers you.
7
SPEAKER_00
We tend to see in people who have sociopathic tendencies or anti-social tendencies, those people don t tend to be bothered.
7
SPEAKER_00
And so they can lie and can be quite calm about it.
7
SPEAKER_00
because they don t feel that guilt.
7
SPEAKER_00
The majority of people will feel guilt.
7
SPEAKER_00
So the majority of people will feel the way you feel because you know it s wrong, you feel it.
7
SPEAKER_00
Whereas those individuals with those tendencies, they don t care.
7
SPEAKER_01
What about a situation that you lied your way through where someone believed you?
7
SPEAKER_01
Is there a situation like that in the last three to five years where you lied about something you re not proud of maybe?
7
SPEAKER_01
that people believed you and more than just, oh, I m having a good day, why?
7
SPEAKER_00
You know what I did?
7
SPEAKER_00
I could probably confess to this, this was so long ago.
7
SPEAKER_00
It was back in the day I got a money order from... Western Union?
7
SPEAKER_00
The post office.
7
SPEAKER_01
Post office.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I was young, I was a kid, I wasn t making a lot of money, I was in college.
7
SPEAKER_00
And so I asked for a money order for like $3.99.
7
SPEAKER_00
I pay, I get it, and then as I m leaving, I see $4.99, and I m like, oh!
7
SPEAKER_01
100 bucks.
7
SPEAKER_00
100 bucks, and I took it.
7
SPEAKER_00
And to this day, I remember it, it bothered me.
7
SPEAKER_01
Really?
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it bothered me.
7
SPEAKER_01
Did it bother you that you didn t tell the truth right then and say, hey, you guys gave me too much?
7
SPEAKER_00
No, I took the money.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
I took the money.
7
SPEAKER_01
Did it bother you that you lied about it?
7
SPEAKER_00
Statue of limitations.
7
SPEAKER_00
I think I m okay.
7
SPEAKER_00
I took the money.
7
SPEAKER_00
It bothered me afterward because I knew it was, um, I knew it was wrong.
7
SPEAKER_00
I will tell you this one story.
7
SPEAKER_00
We went.
7
SPEAKER_01
Did that come up in the secret service interview?
7
SPEAKER_01
Did you ever steal something like money when you were younger?
7
SPEAKER_00
You know what I did lie about and did come up in my secret service interview.
7
SPEAKER_00
I ll tell you that.
7
SPEAKER_00
I,
7
SPEAKER_00
When I applied for the job, when I went to college, my parents, and I love my family, they weren t very supportive.
7
SPEAKER_00
They weren t very supportive of my decisions.
7
SPEAKER_00
My dad was a bit difficult.
7
SPEAKER_00
They didn t really want me to go.
7
SPEAKER_00
And so when you apply for college, you need their paperwork, their tax paperwork.
7
SPEAKER_00
I needed aid.
7
SPEAKER_00
They couldn t afford it.
7
SPEAKER_00
And so my dad was so upset with me, he wouldn t give me his tax paperwork.
7
SPEAKER_01
To go to college?
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_00
didn t agree with my decisions because I was going to private school that they could not afford.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, I ll figure it out on my own, but either way.
7
SPEAKER_00
And so I lied.
7
SPEAKER_00
When I went to the school, I said, I can t get this tax paperwork.
7
SPEAKER_00
You know, the main person was there is like, well, you think you can t get aid.
7
SPEAKER_00
And so I went back to the school later on and I said, I m not living at home.
7
SPEAKER_00
I m alone.
7
SPEAKER_00
Can I get aid?
7
SPEAKER_00
I can t get access to this tax paperwork.
7
SPEAKER_00
And then I got aid.
7
SPEAKER_00
So I flat out, I, yup, I lied.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I spilled the beans in my polygraph.
7
SPEAKER_01
I was like- You told them, this is what happened.
7
SPEAKER_00
I said, I lied to get financial aid.
7
SPEAKER_00
Because I couldn t qualify for aid.
7
SPEAKER_00
And so I was like, you know, they didn t care that.
7
SPEAKER_00
I was like, look, my dad, my mom, they won t give me their tax paperwork.
7
SPEAKER_00
They re so upset with me.
7
SPEAKER_00
They don t agree with my decision to go to this school, to do this.
7
SPEAKER_00
And they re like, no, unless you don t have your parents in your life.
7
SPEAKER_00
I was just like, I was like, I m going to college.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I lied.
7
SPEAKER_00
But in my polygraph, I was like, I have to tell you something.
7
SPEAKER_00
Actually, I said it before they hooked me up.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I said, look, I did, I lied about this.
7
SPEAKER_00
I did this, you know, like, why did you do it?
7
SPEAKER_00
I was like, I wanted to go to college.
7
SPEAKER_00
I couldn t get money to go to school.
7
SPEAKER_00
So I was okay.
7
SPEAKER_00
I got the job.
7
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
7
SPEAKER_01
How many things did you tell, did you confess to before you took the polygraph?
7
SPEAKER_00
That was my biggest thing.
7
SPEAKER_00
That was my thing.
7
SPEAKER_00
Drugs, I never had, despite growing up in New York, I never had any issues.
7
SPEAKER_00
I always stayed away from it, I think because I saw so much around it, of that around me.
7
SPEAKER_00
And the more people kind of put it in my face, the more I was kind of like, I m not doing that.
7
SPEAKER_00
But probably would have been the opposite.
7
SPEAKER_00
If nobody did it, I d be the one to be like, oh, I m gonna try this.
7
SPEAKER_00
But I think that was the biggest thing.
7
SPEAKER_00
It weighed the heaviest with me because I was like, I did this bad thing.
7
SPEAKER_00
I lied on my...
7
SPEAKER_00
financial aid paperwork to get aid.
7
SPEAKER_00
I m hoping the statute of limitations is expired on that as well.
7
SPEAKER_00
I paid back all my loans.
7
SPEAKER_00
I paid back all my loans.
7
SPEAKER_01
When you re in an interrogation or an interview, or you re on a first date, or you re at a job interview in your career, or any type of first interview with any situation, what s the best way to build command, authority, and credibility?
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_00
So you can do very simple things, like when you greet someone, hi, how are you?
7
SPEAKER_00
Come on in.
7
SPEAKER_00
Why don t you use the bathroom before we get started?
7
SPEAKER_00
So I m not asking you, would you like to use the bathroom?
7
SPEAKER_00
I m telling you, why don t you go use the bathroom?
7
SPEAKER_00
Why don t you have something to drink?
7
SPEAKER_00
What can I bring you?
7
SPEAKER_00
So in this subtle way, I m telling you to go to the bathroom, and you re going to go.
7
SPEAKER_00
Because of the way I said, why don t you go to the bathroom?
7
SPEAKER_00
No, no, go before we get started.
7
SPEAKER_00
You just said authority.
7
SPEAKER_00
Why don t you have something to drink?
7
SPEAKER_00
Oh, no, I m good.
7
SPEAKER_00
No, have something to drink.
7
SPEAKER_01
We re going to be here for a little bit.
7
SPEAKER_01
Have something to drink.
7
SPEAKER_00
So now I m planting these little seeds telling you I m in control.
7
SPEAKER_00
I m not telling you, but I m doing it subtly.
8
SPEAKER_00
Have a seat there.
8
SPEAKER_00
You can show me where to sit.
8
SPEAKER_00
Or on the flip side, you could also practice something called autonomy, where you let somebody choose their own seat.
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And that s a different tactic.
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SPEAKER_00
So there s two tactics here.
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Where would you like to sit?
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SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
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Where would you like to sit?
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So you may use that on me if you want to talk about a topic that I don t want to talk about.
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SPEAKER_00
And so autonomy makes me feel like I have a choice.
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SPEAKER_00
You let me choose where I m going to sit because you re going to let me have it later.
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SPEAKER_00
you re gonna try to push me on something later.
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SPEAKER_02
So- I gave you something now, the law of reciprocity means you give me something later.
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SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
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SPEAKER_00
But also autonomy though, it s actually also not reciprocity, it s actually more of I feel in control.
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Because we don t like to feel like we re not in control.
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SPEAKER_00
So if you wanna talk about something where I m really uncomfortable, I don t feel like I m in control, I will give you control elsewhere.
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SPEAKER_00
So I will give you control in picking where you want to meet, I will give you control in what time, I will give you control in where you want to sit.
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SPEAKER_00
Little things like that you can do where that person has autonomy to choose.
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SPEAKER_00
We can do it here, we can talk about this, or we can talk about this.
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SPEAKER_00
Which would you prefer?
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SPEAKER_01
I hope you enjoyed today s episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness.
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SPEAKER_01
Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today s episode with all the important links.
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Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review.
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SPEAKER_01
I really love hearing feedback from you, and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward.
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SPEAKER_01
And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.
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And now, it s time to go out there and do something great.