0
SPEAKER_01
The following is a conversation with Ben Askren, wrestler, MMA fighter, and a brilliant, opinionated, and fun personality in the world of martial arts.
0
SPEAKER_01
And yes, he occasionally likes to talk a little trash.
0
SPEAKER_01
Given his wild online antics and his boxing match with Jake Paul, some people may forget just how dominant he was in the sport of wrestling and in MMA for most of his career.
0
SPEAKER_01
In wrestling, he is a two-time NCAA Division I National Champion and four-time finalist.
0
SPEAKER_01
In mixed martial arts, he went undefeated for 10 years with a record of 19-0 before losing to Jorge Masvidal with a flying knee that caught everyone by surprise.
0
SPEAKER_01
He s also into cryptocurrency, disc golf, and is the co-host of Flow Wrestling Radio Live.
0
SPEAKER_01
And now on to the full ad reads.
0
SPEAKER_01
As always, no ads in the middle.
0
SPEAKER_01
I try to make these interesting, but if you skip them, please still check out our sponsors.
0
SPEAKER_01
I enjoy their stuff.
0
SPEAKER_01
Maybe you will too.
0
SPEAKER_01
This show is brought to you by Notion, a note-taking and team collaboration tool
0
SPEAKER_01
that I can t believe is actually sponsoring this podcast, given how amazing they are.
0
SPEAKER_01
It combines note-taking, document sharing, wikis, project management, and much more into one space that s simple, powerful, and beautifully designed.
0
SPEAKER_01
There s a lot of note-taking apps out there, and I talk to a lot of people that do similar things that I do.
0
SPEAKER_01
really into organizing their ideas, which is what note-taking is.
0
SPEAKER_01
And so many people love Notion.
0
SPEAKER_01
So if you don t want to take my word for it, take the word of the internet.
0
SPEAKER_01
They love Notion.
0
SPEAKER_01
And Notion is running a special offer just for startups.
0
SPEAKER_01
Get up to $1,000 off Notion s team plan by going to notion.com startups.
0
SPEAKER_01
To give you a sense, that s almost a year of free Notion for a team of 10.
0
SPEAKER_01
Go to notion.com slash startups.
0
SPEAKER_01
That s notion.com slash startups.
0
SPEAKER_01
This show is also brought to you by NI, formerly known as National Instruments.
0
SPEAKER_01
NI is a company that has been helping engineers solve the world s toughest challenges for 40 years.
0
SPEAKER_01
Their motto is engineer ambitiously, one of my favorite mottos ever.
0
SPEAKER_01
They have a podcast called Testing 123.
0
SPEAKER_01
They have amazing articles at ni.com slash perspectives covering engineers and innovators and just talking about their whole process from origin story to the success, going through the testing processes of fail and fail and fail again until you get it right.
0
SPEAKER_01
as part of the rigorous process of perfection, chasing perfection.
0
SPEAKER_01
It s the design meeting the harsh truth of reality over and over and over until you get to that product that works great and reliably, is resilient to the conditions of the real world.
0
SPEAKER_01
That s why I love engineering.
0
SPEAKER_01
That s why I really enjoy NI and their amazing slogan of engineer ambitiously.
0
SPEAKER_01
Do that at ni.com slash perspectives.
0
SPEAKER_01
That s ni.com slash perspectives.
0
SPEAKER_01
This episode is also brought to you by Onnit, a nutrition, supplement, and fitness company.
0
SPEAKER_01
They make AlphaBrain, maybe you ve heard of it, which is a nootropic that helps support memory, mental speed, and focus.
0
SPEAKER_01
I use it as a boost when thinking about a difficult problem on a deep work session that I anticipate to be two, three, four hours, so longer than
0
SPEAKER_01
at least longer than 90 minutes.
0
SPEAKER_01
And I know that it s going to be a particularly challenging problem.
0
SPEAKER_01
When thinking through stuff, dead ends to me are the most difficult.
0
SPEAKER_01
Because you have to stop, you have to calmly back up and start again.
0
SPEAKER_01
I mean, that s really difficult.
0
SPEAKER_01
Through that maintaining focus, keeping a clear, calm mind is essential.
0
SPEAKER_01
So AlphaBrain really helps me with that.
0
SPEAKER_01
Even though I keep mumbling and not speaking clearly, I assure you, my mind, at least somewhat, does a little bit less mumbling.
0
SPEAKER_01
It s a little bit clearer.
0
SPEAKER_01
And, once again, that s what AlphaBrain can help with.
0
SPEAKER_01
Go to lexfriedman.com on it to get up to 10% off AlphaBrain.
0
SPEAKER_01
That s lexfriedman.com on it.
0
SPEAKER_01
This episode is also brought to you by Eight Sleep and its Pod Pro mattress.
0
SPEAKER_01
It controls temperature with a nap.
0
SPEAKER_01
It s packed with sensors and can cool down to as low as 55 degrees on each side of the bed separately.
0
SPEAKER_01
It s really up there, to be honest, in terms of joys in life.
0
SPEAKER_01
It s a good power nap on a cold bed with a warm blanket
0
SPEAKER_01
with a little bit of air conditioning, but really the cold bed is where the magic is at.
0
SPEAKER_01
Just having a tough day, just being worn out by thinking, worn out by physical activity, and just a nap of 30 minutes just cures everything.
0
SPEAKER_01
I love it.
0
SPEAKER_01
And the same goes for sleep.
0
SPEAKER_01
A great sleep experience on a cold bed, whether that s for a power nap or a full night s sleep, it s just magic.
0
SPEAKER_01
It can track a bunch of metrics, like heart rate variability, but cooling alone is worth the money.
0
SPEAKER_01
Go to asleep.com slash Lex this Black Friday and Cyber Monday to save on the biggest sale of the year.
0
SPEAKER_01
That s asleep.com slash Lex.
0
SPEAKER_01
This show is also brought to you by NetSuite.
0
SPEAKER_01
NetSuite allows you to manage financials, HR, inventory, e-commerce, and many more business-related details all in one place.
0
SPEAKER_01
Running a company,
0
SPEAKER_01
I think is really, really difficult and not because of the idea development, not because of the innovation and design and engineering, all the things that I love dearly.
0
SPEAKER_01
It is difficult for that, but it is also difficult because of all the, maybe you want to say minutiae, the management of the details, the administrative task, the financials, the human resources.
0
SPEAKER_01
all the business related details.
0
SPEAKER_01
That s really tough.
0
SPEAKER_01
And using the right tools, having the right team of getting that kind of stuff done makes the difference between a business that runs well and not.
0
SPEAKER_01
Anyway, right now, Special Financing is back.
0
SPEAKER_01
Head to netsuite.com slash lex to get their one of a kind financing program.
0
SPEAKER_01
That s netsuite.com slash lex.
0
SPEAKER_01
Netsuite.com slash lex.
0
SPEAKER_01
This is the Lex Friedman Podcast, and here is my conversation with Ben Askren.
0
SPEAKER_02
Before we talk about your incredible wrestling career, your MMA career, let me ask you, I have to ask you, what did you think about the Jake Paul versus Tyron Woodley fight?
0
SPEAKER_00
Well, I thought, I mean, I m obviously unbiased.
0
SPEAKER_00
I thought Tyron won.
0
SPEAKER_00
I had five rounds of three.
0
SPEAKER_00
And again, maybe this is my bias in the way I was seeing it.
0
SPEAKER_00
I thought he was more effective with the striking and he was more aggressive and Jake had more volume.
0
SPEAKER_00
But that was the only thing I would give him.
0
SPEAKER_00
And I guess a lot of people just didn t see it that way.
0
SPEAKER_00
They thought he landed more, significantly more punches.
0
SPEAKER_00
I just didn t think he really did any damage.
0
SPEAKER_02
It was a split decision?
0
SPEAKER_00
Split decision, yeah.
0
SPEAKER_02
Were you surprised?
0
SPEAKER_00
Um, well, there s a thing.
0
SPEAKER_00
So the thing I said when I went in to fight him is that we don t really maybe he s good.
0
SPEAKER_00
Maybe he s not.
0
SPEAKER_00
We have no, we really have no idea to this point, you know?
0
SPEAKER_00
And so I knew Tyron was a lot better at boxing than I was.
0
SPEAKER_00
And so I thought, OK, Tyron s is I think is a good likely that Tyron beats him up.
0
SPEAKER_00
But there s a chance that Jake s kind of good at this.
0
SPEAKER_00
And I think that s kind of what played out is he s kind of good at it.
0
SPEAKER_00
Even if you saw it the way I saw it, he still was impressive in his showing.
0
SPEAKER_00
And he s obviously put a lot of time into it.
0
SPEAKER_00
So he s, he s not bad.
0
SPEAKER_00
We ll say that much, you know.
0
SPEAKER_02
But isn t it surprising to you that like a elite level athlete, combat athlete lost to somebody who just takes it really seriously, but is nevertheless not elite level.
0
SPEAKER_00
I think boxing is a really specific rule set.
0
SPEAKER_00
So I ll speak about Tyron, not myself.
0
SPEAKER_00
Tyron had good striking, but obviously it was his first boxing match ever.
0
SPEAKER_00
And within mixed martial arts, you have the fear of the takedown and the fear of the kick and fear of other things to go along with the punching.
0
SPEAKER_00
And so if you look at Tyron,
0
SPEAKER_00
Throughout his MMA career lots of times what set up his punches were like level change fakes at a takedown They dropped boom and then something comes over the top, right?
0
SPEAKER_00
So there s many more elements to worry about in mixed martial arts where it s boxing.
0
SPEAKER_00
There s only one it was his first fight Yes, I thought Tyrone was gonna win.
0
SPEAKER_00
I thought this was gonna happen.
0
SPEAKER_00
But like I said, I mean, it s pretty evident that Jake s He s not bad at boxing.
0
SPEAKER_00
He s pretty solid, you know, he gets in there and works hard at it, I guess and
0
SPEAKER_02
Out of 10 times, how many times do you think Jake wins?
0
SPEAKER_00
Against Tyron?
0
SPEAKER_02
Against Tyron.
0
SPEAKER_02
They fight again and again and again, like iteratively.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so I mean, part of the thing is...
0
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so Jake s corner said you need a knockout going into the eighth round, right?
0
SPEAKER_00
So I think they thought maybe they re trying to motivate him, but I don t see it that way because if they were actually thought that he was winning, why would they encourage him to take a dumb risk when Tyron has clearly his knockout power, right?
0
SPEAKER_00
It s a really stupid coaching philosophy if that s what you re thinking.
0
SPEAKER_00
So you obviously are thinking, hey, this is actually in the balance, it s competitive.
0
SPEAKER_00
And I feel like Tyron thought maybe he was winning and didn t have the urgency necessary
0
SPEAKER_00
And so I think there s a chance he turns it up a lot.
0
SPEAKER_00
Hmm.
0
SPEAKER_00
Now, I would want to watch him again before I. So I have a problem with my personality.
0
SPEAKER_00
Here s my personality.
0
SPEAKER_00
I have an issue with not being able to give really exact answers.
0
SPEAKER_00
So I hate giving you an answer that like.
0
SPEAKER_00
I don t feel like it s 100% calculated.
0
SPEAKER_00
So I would like to see them go once more, because I would like to see, hey, can Tyron, because if Tyron can turn up the pace and Jake can t handle it, then I think it s an 8, 1, or 9, 2, right?
0
SPEAKER_00
If it goes the exact same way and maybe Tyron wins a close split decision, I m saying, oh, it s probably going to be close every single time.
0
SPEAKER_00
We re probably going to get a 5 to 5 type of thing, you know?
0
SPEAKER_00
So it s like, I feel like out of one match, it s not totally indicative of what the future is going to look like.
0
SPEAKER_02
I feel like Tyrone would get a knockout and then you would still be in the same place, like not knowing what to predict.
0
SPEAKER_02
Okay, so your fight with Jake Paul, looking back, you had a little bit of time now, how would you analyze that fight?
0
SPEAKER_00
Well, I mean, the fight specifically, I got cracked with an overhand right, so I mean, it kind of sucks.
0
SPEAKER_00
I would say,
0
SPEAKER_00
And this is where I was like, I really don t care.
0
SPEAKER_00
And everyone s like, why would you do that?
0
SPEAKER_00
It turns your reputation.
0
SPEAKER_00
It s like, well, I wanted to do it.
0
SPEAKER_00
I had an enjoyable time training it in the buildup.
0
SPEAKER_00
Obviously, I wasn t skillful enough to get the win.
0
SPEAKER_00
But even despite the fact that I know what happened, if someone asked me to do it again, I probably would have done it again.
0
SPEAKER_00
And so the way I was thinking about when I was deciding whether to do it or not, because I got the offer,
0
SPEAKER_00
It s like, okay, is this money, can it change my life?
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it could, right?
0
SPEAKER_00
It s not gonna double my net worth, but it s gonna add significantly and make my life easier.
0
SPEAKER_00
Number two is like, when I was in high school, we used to do boxing matches for free just because we thought it was fun.
0
SPEAKER_00
When we didn t have something going on Friday night, me and my buddies would get together and we had some boxing, it was like basic, and we d punch each other in the head.
0
SPEAKER_00
So it s like, for something I think is enjoyable, now they re gonna pay me a whole bunch of money, yeah, sure, I ll do it.
0
SPEAKER_02
would you, do you think if you got the rematch, if you did the rematch, would you, what are the odds you win?
0
SPEAKER_02
Okay, let s see.
0
SPEAKER_00
I m probably not very good.
0
SPEAKER_00
I think he s pretty good, actually, and I m not very good.
0
SPEAKER_00
And that was probably at a low point for me because, so when I started training for that, I was like 215 pounds, which is the heaviest I ve ever been.
0
SPEAKER_00
I came off my hip surgery.
0
SPEAKER_00
I literally, like when I said yes, like I ll do it, like I had literally started working out like the week before for the first time in my, you know, since the surgery, because I wasn t able to do anything.
0
SPEAKER_00
So could I perform better?
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_00
But now after watching him box Tyron, if you ask me, Ben, can you beat Tyron?
0
SPEAKER_00
Probably not.
0
SPEAKER_00
I don t think I can beat Tyron.
0
SPEAKER_00
In boxing.
0
SPEAKER_00
Correct, in boxing, yeah.
0
SPEAKER_00
So my chances of beating him.
0
SPEAKER_00
And watching that card, it s like, damn.
0
SPEAKER_00
It d kind of be fun to box someone who I know sucks, who I know can beat.
0
SPEAKER_00
That s what would be fun, you know?
0
SPEAKER_00
Because the training, the preparation was fun, but then obviously, I got my butt kicked, that sucked.
0
SPEAKER_00
Can I swear on this podcast?
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, of course.
0
SPEAKER_00
Okay, well, I was gonna drop an F-bomb, but I wasn t quite sure, so.
0
SPEAKER_02
I think that sucked is a swear.
0
SPEAKER_02
No, no, no.
0
SPEAKER_02
You could drop all of the F-bombs you want.
0
SPEAKER_02
So preparation-wise, do you think you were more prepared for that fight or the Jordan Burroughs exhibition?
0
SPEAKER_02
I mean, how did you approach it mentally?
0
SPEAKER_00
Well, the Burroughs thing, I obviously, it s okay.
0
SPEAKER_00
So when I retired the first time in 2017, Burroughs was the only current, like we ll say, really elite level wrestler that I d never trained with.
0
SPEAKER_00
I was really good friends with Nebraska s head assistant coach, still am, and I said, hey, I m gonna pay my own way.
0
SPEAKER_00
I wanna come down and train with Jordan because I wanna see what it feels like.
0
SPEAKER_00
I wanna get in there and mix it up.
0
SPEAKER_00
I ve mixed it up with David Taylor and Kyle Dake.
0
SPEAKER_00
I mean, there s just something about wrestling that I love.
0
SPEAKER_00
And so I flew myself down there in January of 2018, and I spent four days training with Jordan.
0
SPEAKER_00
It was a really good time.
0
SPEAKER_00
It gave me some great insight into how he thinks and what a great champion he is.
0
SPEAKER_00
What was it like training with him?
0
SPEAKER_02
Can you give some insights?
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, of course.
0
SPEAKER_02
Like how hard is the live training?
0
SPEAKER_02
Is it more drilling?
0
SPEAKER_02
Is it technical?
0
SPEAKER_02
It seems like his style is very different than yours.
0
SPEAKER_02
So how does that match up in the room in terms of like what you learn from each other, that kind of thing?
0
SPEAKER_00
We went full live for one, I think it was like a 12 or 15 minute go where we were just
0
SPEAKER_00
go wrestle.
0
SPEAKER_00
We did a bunch of simulated live.
0
SPEAKER_00
But obviously he had so I was a senior in college and he was a freshman in Nebraska.
0
SPEAKER_00
And so we our teams had dueled each other.
0
SPEAKER_00
He was obviously a lot smaller at that point in time.
0
SPEAKER_00
But he had followed my career.
0
SPEAKER_00
And so when I went in there, it was like, hey, I know you re really good at this position.
0
SPEAKER_00
What about this position?
0
SPEAKER_00
What are you trying to do?
0
SPEAKER_00
How exactly does it work?
0
SPEAKER_00
And then let s wrestle there, you know?
0
SPEAKER_00
And then, hey, what about this position?
0
SPEAKER_00
And so we would spend 30 to 40 minutes talking about that position.
0
SPEAKER_00
On the ground or?
0
SPEAKER_00
It was like, one was a chest wrap, one was a headlock, one was, I don t know, we call it the lightning dump, but it s a,
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, my buddy s name was Lightning Luke Smith in high school, and he was the first person I saw do it.
0
SPEAKER_00
So usually when I see someone do something, then I name that move after them.
0
SPEAKER_00
Got it.
0
SPEAKER_00
I know, right?
0
SPEAKER_00
Great name.
0
SPEAKER_00
It s a good name.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, but so what I said with that is like, he was still trying to be the best in the world.
0
SPEAKER_00
I was just trying to go work out with Jordan Burroughs because I enjoy wrestling.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_00
is like someone who, at that point, what he has five world titles at that, four or five at that point, a lot.
0
SPEAKER_00
And so I use it with my high school kids.
0
SPEAKER_00
It s like, hey, this is a guy who s the best in the world, who s bringing someone in and saying, well, how do I do this?
0
SPEAKER_00
How do I do that?
0
SPEAKER_00
What about this?
0
SPEAKER_00
What about that?
0
SPEAKER_00
And so the level of inquisitiveness, that s a hard word, inquisitiveness he has, is really impressive.
0
SPEAKER_00
And then it s obvious why he got to the level he did, because he s figuring out all these little situations.
0
SPEAKER_00
And that s honestly one of the biggest things I think wrestlers,
0
SPEAKER_00
A lot of wrestlers fail to do as they get older.
0
SPEAKER_00
Even when they get to early college age, they say, this is my style.
0
SPEAKER_00
This is what I do.
0
SPEAKER_00
I m going to lift and work out hard.
0
SPEAKER_00
And I m not going to add anything to my game.
0
SPEAKER_00
Whereas you ve seen many progressions in Jordan Burrow s game.
0
SPEAKER_00
He just made his 10th world team.
0
SPEAKER_00
And if you have a really keen eye, you ve been able to watch him change.
0
SPEAKER_00
I ve been watching him since 2007.
0
SPEAKER_00
He s changed so much and obviously still maintained a world-class level almost the entire time.
0
SPEAKER_02
When you say change, like what change?
0
SPEAKER_02
Because he s got that double leg.
0
SPEAKER_00
But he doesn t have a double leg anymore.
0
SPEAKER_00
He had his double leg for the first time.
0
SPEAKER_00
He hadn t had it in years.
0
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so that s like when people think about Jordan Bros, they think about the double leg.
0
SPEAKER_00
Because in his early years, he had a great double leg, right?
0
SPEAKER_00
So in those years, I would say,
0
SPEAKER_00
The biggest thing with Jordan Bro s double leg wasn t his level of explosiveness, it was his level of persistence.
0
SPEAKER_00
He would shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot, and a lot of times it would be from fun, creative angles, and on the screen it was boop, all the sudden he s on you, you know?
0
SPEAKER_00
And he was just super persistent with it, and I think that was probably the key.
0
SPEAKER_00
And then you saw, you know, when he came out to one of the first world championships in 2011, it was kind of that type of mentality.
0
SPEAKER_00
And then shortly after then, obviously everyone was starting to lower their stance, getting lower, and he developed a really good like mantis
1
SPEAKER_00
this go-behind series where he would go one way, the other way.
1
SPEAKER_00
Then he started developing a really good, like, low single ankle pick type thing, you know?
1
SPEAKER_00
And then his hand fighting got really tremendous, like, 15, 16, 17.
1
SPEAKER_00
His hand fighting was really good.
1
SPEAKER_00
And now, I just commented at the 21 Trials, like,
1
SPEAKER_00
A few of the defensive sequences he got into, it s like, holy shit, like just not from an athletic standpoint, but from a technical standpoint, the things he were doing were just tremendous.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I ve seen him as someone like who s continued to reinvent themselves over the course of the last 10, 12 years.
1
SPEAKER_01
especially as a junior and senior in college, you re exceptionally dominant.
1
SPEAKER_01
If you were to face him at both of your peaks of NCAA wrestling, could you beat him?
1
SPEAKER_01
And if you can beat him, of course you can beat him.
1
SPEAKER_01
How do you solve the Jordan Burroughs problem?
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, so for a folk style wrestling standpoint.
1
SPEAKER_00
Folk style, yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
Folk style.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, he had some competitive matches his junior and senior year.
1
SPEAKER_00
He had a 2-1 win over, or maybe it was 3-2, over Michael Chandler, who was my teammate who s fighting UFC now.
1
SPEAKER_00
He had a 2-1 win over Tyler Caldwell.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I think you can glean some insight into that.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, he got ridden
1
SPEAKER_00
He got so mad about this up on a podcast.
1
SPEAKER_00
So during Corona, we had to make up all kinds of bullshit to talk about.
1
SPEAKER_00
And we were doing like the last 10 years, best 165s.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I said, Kyle Dake would ride him for over a minute.
1
SPEAKER_00
He got so mad, he wanted to come on the podcast the next day.
1
SPEAKER_00
So hopefully he doesn t listen to this.
1
SPEAKER_00
Fuck you, man.
1
SPEAKER_01
When was this?
1
SPEAKER_01
This is during Corona.
1
SPEAKER_00
Corona, last year.
1
SPEAKER_00
He got mad.
1
SPEAKER_00
We were talking about- Before the trials.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, correct, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Michael Channel wrote him for two minutes plus, and that was his junior year, not his senior year, sure, right, but it s close.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I think there s some things there.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think the interesting thing would be if I would have stuck around, right, so I chose to go into mixed martial arts after dozen eight, I would have been 74 and he would have been 74, so we would have had to wrestle.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then I think that the freestyle Jordan Burroughs puzzle is a lot more difficult to solve than the folk style Jordan Burroughs puzzle.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think, I don t think he would, I think he would acknowledge that,
1
SPEAKER_00
He s much better at freestyle than he was at folk style.
1
SPEAKER_00
Although he was very good, he s better.
1
SPEAKER_01
This is like raw speed explosiveness presents a problem to you.
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, so he was never I mean, he didn t really excel on the mat in kind of either style in
1
SPEAKER_00
Freestyle, he has got some good lace transitions, but in folks that like his whole like his entire college career, I think he has like 10 pins, which is almost nothing, you know.
1
SPEAKER_00
So he was getting no value off the top position.
1
SPEAKER_00
He was good enough on most people to get off bottom without it being an issue.
1
SPEAKER_00
But it wasn t like, oh, my gosh, this is an area where we really have to be careful.
1
SPEAKER_00
There s a lot of things here.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, it s just he wasn t gaining value there.
1
SPEAKER_00
Whereas in freestyle, he
1
SPEAKER_00
I don t want to say never, but the amount of times he gets turned is incredibly rare, very, very rare.
1
SPEAKER_00
And he does have a glaze transition, so he gets a lot of points there.
1
SPEAKER_00
So, and obviously freestyle is, it can be geared way more in the neutral position, right, where we re only doing takedowns.
1
SPEAKER_00
So, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
Were you surprised that he lost to Dake in the trials, to Kyle Dake?
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, Kyle s, so he s so good, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, I think his performance in the Olympics was,
1
SPEAKER_00
was his loss and it was shocking to, I mean, we noticed that happened to Kyle Dake.
1
SPEAKER_00
He s been a guy who s competed with Jordan Burroughs forever and obviously he was on the losing side for a while and now he s on the winning side.
1
SPEAKER_00
But I think a lot of people thought it was a coin flip and I think actually Kyle Dake made it feel like
1
SPEAKER_00
It s not a coin flip.
1
SPEAKER_00
To me it feels like Kyle Dake is gonna win that match significantly more times than he isn t, is what it feels like.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I forgot which trials it was.
1
SPEAKER_01
Was it four years ago where Kyle Dake threw him?
1
SPEAKER_01
You saw inklings of like, oh wow, there might be eventually a changing of the guard.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
So at 13, Kyle came out and he had the one throw, but then he lost one of the matches decisively.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then he was hurt in 14.
1
SPEAKER_00
And in 16, Kyle Digg actually went up to 86 kilograms.
1
SPEAKER_00
So actually in 16,
1
SPEAKER_00
At the trials we had, so Jay Kerber was number one seed.
1
SPEAKER_00
He was former, as Guy Russell, I was a former world silver medalist.
1
SPEAKER_00
So you had David Taylor, who had not made a team yet, who is now a world champion, Olympic champion.
1
SPEAKER_00
You had Kyle Dake in the bracket, who was a two-time world champion now.
1
SPEAKER_00
And you had Jaden Cox in the bracket, who had not made any teams yet, but is now
1
SPEAKER_00
what a four-time world medalist, two-time world champion.
1
SPEAKER_00
So, and then, obviously, Jayden came out on top of that, won his first Olympic medal, Olympic bronze medal.
1
SPEAKER_00
So, Kyle didn t wrestle Jordan in 16, and Kyle s contention the whole time, and they argued about this.
1
SPEAKER_00
So, I actually did a little bit of backstabbing.
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, it s not backstabbing.
1
SPEAKER_01
And both of them, or just one of them?
1
SPEAKER_00
I didn t tell any of them.
1
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so Jordan got mad.
1
SPEAKER_00
So, we talked about this fake match during Corona, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
We had to make up something to talk about, because there s obviously no matches.
1
SPEAKER_00
So we talk about this fake match, and- Do you stand behind that statement, by the way?
1
SPEAKER_00
Listen, here s what I said.
1
SPEAKER_00
Kyle Dick s four-time NCAA champion.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yes, I said, you gotta pick a winner.
1
SPEAKER_00
I said, Kyle Dick wins 2-1 on a minute and six ride time, which, I mean, we re talking as close as it gets, as close as it gets for Kyle Dick, who s a four-time NCAA champion.
1
SPEAKER_01
I m sorry, are we talking folks?
1
SPEAKER_01
Over Jordan Burroughs.
1
SPEAKER_01
Over Jordan Burroughs.
1
SPEAKER_01
In a folks down match.
1
SPEAKER_01
In a folks down match.
1
SPEAKER_00
Hypothetical.
1
SPEAKER_00
Completely hypothetical.
1
SPEAKER_01
Now or in college?
1
SPEAKER_00
In college.
1
SPEAKER_00
Both of them at their peaks at 165 pounds.
1
SPEAKER_00
So completely hypothetical.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so Jordan called in, he was all pissed.
1
SPEAKER_00
at me for picking Kyle Dake.
1
SPEAKER_00
He wants to come on the next day and argue his point.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I said, F that.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s dumb.
1
SPEAKER_00
We need to pick a winner.
1
SPEAKER_00
We need to do something hypothetical.
1
SPEAKER_00
So then I called Kyle Dake, and I said, Kyle, Jordan s going to come on and argue his case in the morning.
1
SPEAKER_00
If he s going to do that, why don t you come in and argue your case?
1
SPEAKER_00
So no one else knew Kyle was coming on the podcast.
1
SPEAKER_00
So they both show up, and they went at it.
1
SPEAKER_00
But one of the contentions Kyle had for years, and there s still this rule, if you win a world level medal,
1
SPEAKER_00
the following year, you sit out until the very end of the American trials and they do, they do a best two or three.
1
SPEAKER_00
So every time previously that Kyle had wrestled Jordan, he had to come through a tournament on Saturday.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
Probably three matches.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then on Sunday he would wrestle Jordan in the best two out of three.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right.
1
SPEAKER_00
So his contention was I m only wrestling Jordan at a disadvantage because I have to compete on Saturday.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then competing, which it s a fair argument.
1
SPEAKER_00
It really is.
1
SPEAKER_00
But I also see USA Wrestling s point is like if someone wins a world medal, we re going to reward them because we want that person on the team again.
1
SPEAKER_01
So it s crazy, though, that you re like Kyle Dake had to wrestle because he s not wrestling bums in that.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
And then.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
I don t know.
1
SPEAKER_01
I don t know how wrestlers do it because
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
You have to go to war like three matches and then face Jordan Burroughs.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, especially a few of those years with, you know, Dake had the name Andrew Howe, but those were really competitive matches.
1
SPEAKER_00
David Taylor had really competitive matches with him.
1
SPEAKER_00
Isaiah Martinez even got in there, Dieringer.
1
SPEAKER_00
So he had some really competitive matches before he ever got to Jordan Burroughs.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I never answered your initial question was, how did I feel?
1
SPEAKER_00
The Jordan Burroughs match, I was not in wrestling shape at all, meaning wrestling s heavily dependent, especially in neutral positions, heavily dependent on timing and other things.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was wrestling very, very minimally, because I started fighting again.
1
SPEAKER_00
So my athletic shape was great, but it was mainly for fighting.
1
SPEAKER_00
I wasn t wrestling.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I think they were actually trying to do Burroughs-Dake at Beat the Streets.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s the biggest fundraiser in wrestling every single year.
1
SPEAKER_00
In New York?
1
SPEAKER_00
In New York City.
1
SPEAKER_00
They usually raise like a million dollars.
1
SPEAKER_00
They started all these programs in New York City.
1
SPEAKER_00
I really wonder what they re doing with the money now because they probably can t have the kids wrestling because New York s crazy.
1
SPEAKER_01
I think New York figures out a way what to do with the money, hence Michael Mal s complaining that they re corrupt and all that.
1
SPEAKER_00
But it goes to the Beat the Streets organization, who then starts the clubs in New York, so I don t know what to do with the money.
1
SPEAKER_00
Anyway, so I was called like, I don t know, two weeks before the event and said, hey, you know, someone was supposed to wrestle Jordan Burroughs, it fell out.
1
SPEAKER_00
Would you wrestle him?
1
SPEAKER_00
I said, yeah, sure, why not?
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, and it s like, listen, I trained with him for four days the year before.
1
SPEAKER_00
I had a pretty good idea how the match was gonna go.
1
SPEAKER_00
It wasn t gonna go so well for me, but it s like, okay, you re missing a main event.
1
SPEAKER_00
I can bring, because of where I m at right now in my life, I can bring a lot of attention to wrestling.
1
SPEAKER_00
I can help you guys raise a bunch of money for Beat the Streets.
1
SPEAKER_00
My goal is, I think, I thought I could get one takedown or turn on him was kind of my goal for the match.
1
SPEAKER_00
I didn t get there.
1
SPEAKER_00
You weren t kind of hard.
1
SPEAKER_00
He went hard.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that asshole didn t give me a point.
1
SPEAKER_00
I said, this is bullshit, Jordan.
1
SPEAKER_00
I told him during the match, this is bullshit.
1
SPEAKER_00
You re fucking going too hard right now.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m not a wrestler anymore.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m a fighter.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m coming in here.
1
SPEAKER_00
So yeah, I had a really good idea.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, we wrestled together.
1
SPEAKER_00
He ll probably get mad because I think in the live go, we did like the 12 or 15 minutes.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think I actually scored a takedown in that, I believe, maybe, or maybe it was a turn.
1
SPEAKER_00
He ll probably say, no, I didn t, but whatever.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so I knew what was going to happen.
1
SPEAKER_00
I knew what the outcome was going to be.
1
SPEAKER_00
I knew I could probably, I was hoping I could stay competitive and maybe, you know, lose like 10-2 or something.
1
SPEAKER_00
Like, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
Well, let s walk back, because I think I originally brought it up in terms of how prepared were you against Jake Paul versus Jonah Barrows.
1
SPEAKER_01
So did you prepare for Jake cardio-wise?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I worked hard.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I did, but it was, I told you, I started training from, I mean, once I had my hip surgery, they said, you know, for the first six weeks, you can t even walk.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it was hard for me to listen to him, because by week four and a half, five, I was feeling pretty good.
1
SPEAKER_00
I wanted to get rid of my crutches.
1
SPEAKER_00
But I m like, you know what?
1
SPEAKER_00
This is for the rest of my life.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so if you get the real hip replacement, there s no wrestling, there s no nothing, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
So that s the next step.
1
SPEAKER_00
So, okay, I m gonna take this serious.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I do my crunch for the six weeks.
1
SPEAKER_00
The next six weeks, it s still like really low weight bearing, can t necessarily do anything, you know?
1
SPEAKER_00
So then I get done with the three months, which is like January and I m like, okay, I should start working out.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I started riding a bike a little bit and then,
1
SPEAKER_00
okay, I m now I m fat, I m fucking fat, I m gonna get in better shape because I haven t been able to do anything.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I m actually start working out.
1
SPEAKER_00
And, and then that happened, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
So I m like, Okay, well, now I got three months and it gives me a good reason to get back in shape.
1
SPEAKER_00
And, um,
1
SPEAKER_00
you know, I knew I wasn t gonna be a full-time boxer, so it s like, okay, how do I put a boxing camp together?
1
SPEAKER_00
So I found, you know, I had my old teammate, Mike Rhodes, he came up and kind of lived with me-ish kind of thing for three months.
1
SPEAKER_00
I found this guy, K9, out of Michigan.
1
SPEAKER_00
He came over three weeks, he was great.
1
SPEAKER_00
I went to Freddie Roach for a week.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I kind of like, you know, tried to get as many good ideas as I could.
1
SPEAKER_00
And my thought was like, okay, well, if this dude sucks,
1
SPEAKER_00
I can just be tough and block a few punches, get him tired, and then beat him up.
1
SPEAKER_00
If he s good, there s probably not much I m going to do about it in the next three months because I was never good at boxing in the first place.
1
SPEAKER_00
All of my stand-up and mixed martial arts was predicated on how do I get through the two or three punches that are going to come at me in the time I need to get a hold of them.
1
SPEAKER_00
You only have to make two or three of them miss, and then boom, you re on top of them, at least for me.
1
SPEAKER_00
That was all my striking was predicated on.
1
SPEAKER_00
It wasn t about, hey, I m going to do damage on the feet in order to make something else happen.
1
SPEAKER_00
It was like, how do I clear this barrier, get a hold of you?
1
SPEAKER_00
I actually did the math one time.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think I got to take down
1
SPEAKER_00
If you include the knockout round against Miles Vidal, I got a takedown in every round except two.
1
SPEAKER_00
So it was like 53 out of 55 rounds in MMA I got a takedown.
1
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
1
SPEAKER_00
Somewhere in there.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so you re hunting the takedown once you get your hands on them, you get a takedown.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_01
But the incredible thing about you, I just recently talked, spent a couple of days with Jimmy Pedro, and he talked about his guys and just champions in general hating to lose more than they love winning.
1
SPEAKER_01
And the way you talked about losing, you lost very few times in your career.
1
SPEAKER_01
Like later, you were dominating both the wrestling and MMA.
1
SPEAKER_01
But the way you took these losses against people that are, I don t know, below elite level.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s fair.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was also going to get pissy, but it s completely fair.
1
SPEAKER_00
I thought he was a bum too.
1
SPEAKER_01
No, that s not what I meant.
1
SPEAKER_01
I m in trouble.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
No, it s good.
1
SPEAKER_01
No, no, no.
1
SPEAKER_01
But what, can you explain the psychology behind that?
1
SPEAKER_01
Is there a system behind this?
1
SPEAKER_01
Is there a philosophy behind this?
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, I wasn t very good in the beginning.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think that s where it all starts from.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I didn t start getting good until the age of 13.
1
SPEAKER_00
I started at five.
1
SPEAKER_00
I probably started competing more at age 10, 11.
1
SPEAKER_00
I didn t really get good until 13.
1
SPEAKER_00
And still at 13, I m saying I m great.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m getting better.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m pretty good.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I actually have
1
SPEAKER_00
I have written this book on sports psych, but I got someone to write it for me kind of thing, because I ve had this philosophy for years that there has to be this balance between two things, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
So on the one hand, in this category, on the one hand, you have hating to lose.
1
SPEAKER_00
A great champion has to hate to lose, like you said, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
But on this other hand, you have to have
1
SPEAKER_00
someone who seeks out challenges, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
Because if you don t have that, you re never gonna reach your full potential either.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so you have to balance these two balls at the same time, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
And so like for me, I always, and this is maybe because I wasn t good, but I was always like, let me go find the best people to wrestle all the time.
1
SPEAKER_00
Let me go find, I would like literally, like seventh, eighth grade when I was starting to get better, it was like, and there s an internet, well, no one was using the internet.
1
SPEAKER_00
It was like a wrestling magazine.
1
SPEAKER_00
And be like, hey dad, there s a tournament here.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think that, are the kids going to be there?
1
SPEAKER_00
Can you take me two hours across the state today, please?
1
SPEAKER_01
You would wrestle like in competition, I guess.
1
SPEAKER_01
In competition.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
In competition.
1
SPEAKER_00
Hey, I heard there s this tournament.
1
SPEAKER_00
Here s the magazine says this tournament.
1
SPEAKER_00
Hey dad, will you take me over there tomorrow?
1
SPEAKER_01
You, you weren t trying to win.
1
SPEAKER_01
You were trying to get the experience.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was trying to wrestle the best guys.
1
SPEAKER_00
Maybe I win, maybe I lose.
1
SPEAKER_00
When you do a competition, there s no guarantee of a win or a loss.
1
SPEAKER_00
You re just doing competition, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
So I wanted to challenge myself against the best guys, of which I thought maybe I could come out on top, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
So like eighth grade year, I won way, way, you know, I probably only lost a handful of times in the state of Wisconsin.
1
SPEAKER_00
It was probably really, really minimal the amount of times I lost, you know?
1
SPEAKER_00
But it was just about getting the challenge.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it s like some kids,
1
SPEAKER_00
and not kids in my club, because I ll push them very hard on this, are scared of challenging themselves.
1
SPEAKER_00
They like being the big fish in the small pond.
1
SPEAKER_00
They re not willing to go say, I wanna go get that guy, and I wanna get that guy, and I wanna get that guy.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so that s like, so I think that s part of it for me is like, I always just love to challenge.
1
SPEAKER_00
I enjoy competing thoroughly, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
And I understood from a young age, because I wasn t very good, losing s a part of it.
1
SPEAKER_00
You re not always gonna win.
1
SPEAKER_00
And that was kind of it.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s like, hey, sometimes, you know, and for my MMA career,
1
SPEAKER_00
I never planned it to go that way, but yeah, I didn t lose for nine years, and that s pretty rare.
1
SPEAKER_00
I didn t plan for that to happen, that was just what happened.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay, but you also didn t lose the second part of your college career.
1
SPEAKER_00
I won my last 87 matches, yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Mm-hmm.
1
SPEAKER_01
So that didn t come along with the hatred of losing, you just?
1
SPEAKER_00
I don t like losing, I still don t like it.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I would have much rather.
1
SPEAKER_01
Okay, but you don t, you seem to kinda shrug it off a little bit.
1
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so specifically with these two instances that you bring up.
1
SPEAKER_00
With the Masvidal, it feels definitely, so, okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
All right, let s go deep, let s go deep.
1
SPEAKER_00
So the Masvidal one, it feels different,
1
SPEAKER_01
So, wait, wait, wait, for people who don t know, Masvidal loss was your first loss.
1
SPEAKER_00
First loss in MMA, yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and it was a dramatic loss.
1
SPEAKER_00
Very dramatic.
1
SPEAKER_01
And there was this kind of buildup as you were potentially one of the greats of all time coming into this fight.
1
SPEAKER_01
And so, there s pressure, all of that.
1
SPEAKER_00
So, I mean, I was thoroughly enjoying it.
1
SPEAKER_00
I didn t feel the pressure.
1
SPEAKER_00
So, the Masvidal fight is,
1
SPEAKER_00
He got one fucking move on me.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s not like he beat me.
1
SPEAKER_00
And if we do that again, I think I win.
1
SPEAKER_00
At that point in my life, for sure, I think I win way, way, way more times than I lose.
1
SPEAKER_00
He knew that too.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s why he didn t want to sign the body agreement.
1
SPEAKER_00
That s why I had to taunt him.
1
SPEAKER_00
and why he got so mad, because I had to continue to taunt him in order to get him to sign, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
So that one hurt, because as people who don t know my memory, I ll just go through it fast.
1
SPEAKER_00
I did three fights in smaller leagues.
1
SPEAKER_00
I got signed by Bellator.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was undefeated for three and a half years.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was 9-0.
1
SPEAKER_00
When I got done with that in 2012, 2013,
1
SPEAKER_00
I, at that point in my head, I was just going to transition to the UFC because that s where you go.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was ranked like sixth in the world.
1
SPEAKER_00
I hadn t really had a competitive match at the end of the Bellator thing.
1
SPEAKER_00
And Dana White, for reasons still unknown
2
SPEAKER_00
to me, we still haven t had this conversation, I wish I could ask him, I should ask him sometime, chose to refuse me any entry into UFC.
2
SPEAKER_00
He just said, I went to his office.
2
SPEAKER_00
and he literally said, we re not interested, we re not gonna make you an offer.
2
SPEAKER_01
Did you mention something to, about him, about the UFC?
2
SPEAKER_00
That was a year before that, that was a year before.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that might play a role in it, I think.
2
SPEAKER_00
So yes, what happened the year before that was, I called him a liar, but listen, I m right on this one, because he said you can t test for drugs, because I m all natural, which you can tell by my physique.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I was always put off by the fact that so many people cheated.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I was very vocal about that.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so he had made some statement like, oh, there s no way you could test.
2
SPEAKER_00
I said, bullshit.
2
SPEAKER_00
Very specifically, I said, USADA does it for all other sports worldwide.
2
SPEAKER_00
You can do it.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then it s funny, because I hired USADA a couple of years later.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I think he took some offense to that.
2
SPEAKER_00
But that was like a year and almost a year and a half, I think, somewhere later.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s not like he holds a grudge or anything.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I literally go to Vegas.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s a long story.
2
SPEAKER_00
You can read about it other places.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I got released from a belt.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s not like this is a negotiation.
2
SPEAKER_00
I got released from my belt or contract.
2
SPEAKER_00
I said, I m out of here.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m going to go to the UFC.
2
SPEAKER_00
I go to Vegas, and then I was told, hey, there s no offer for you.
2
SPEAKER_00
Tough shit.
2
SPEAKER_00
So then I ended up signing with one championship.
2
SPEAKER_00
I spent, what, three and a half years there.
2
SPEAKER_00
I won the belt in my second fight and retained the title the entire time.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then I just, I think.
2
SPEAKER_01
Again, dominating people.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I didn t have a competitive fight.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so, I retired 18-0.
2
SPEAKER_00
And for someone who loves a challenge, never getting to really challenge myself was incredibly frustrating.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I left the door open.
2
SPEAKER_00
I said, if I ever get the chance to prove I m in this world, I d love to come back.
2
SPEAKER_00
So, somehow, a year later, I get traded.
2
SPEAKER_00
Trades have never happened.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is the one and only trade ever.
2
SPEAKER_00
I had been retired for a year, I got traded, I get to come back, I fight Robbie Lawler in the first fight, I win, and then essentially they re saying, okay, if you fight, you know, if you beat George, you re going to get the title shot against Marty.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like, this is what I ve been working for the entire, I ve been trying to prove I was the best fighter in the world for the last 10 years, and I have not been afforded this opportunity.
2
SPEAKER_00
So when I lost to George, that was hard, because it was something that I had waited for for a really, really long time.
2
SPEAKER_00
It was something that I thought I could compete for, and I never got the opportunity to do, so that one was hard.
2
SPEAKER_00
At the same time, from just the competitive logistics, he got me with one move.
2
SPEAKER_00
It wasn t like he beat my ass for 15 minutes, and I got beat a bunch of different ways.
2
SPEAKER_00
So that was like, fuck, if I get it again, I could ve done it, but they re not gonna let me have it again.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s not like wrestling where you could go the next year or the next week or whatever, you know?
2
SPEAKER_00
You lose at Big 10s, you go to Nationals two weeks later.
2
SPEAKER_01
Does that loss change you in any way, your psychology?
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t think so.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s the first loss.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, had I had a longer MMA career post that, there definitely would ve been a lot of time spent
2
SPEAKER_00
getting better at the entry point to the takedown, which I d already spent time there.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I hate making excuses, but yeah, the hip, the hinging of my hip, what I couldn t do was preventing me from doing some things.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s why, if you look at the fight, I m bent over as I go for the double leg.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so what happened for people who don t know, you went in for a double leg and he did a flying knee and it caught you well.
2
SPEAKER_00
Specifically, the way he did that knee was kind of different than the way anyone had thrown flying knees before.
2
SPEAKER_00
Most people go more just from a stand straight vertical, whereas he took a few like running steps and went more, you know, the trajectory of the angle was different.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I think that s kind of probably why it caught.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think a lot of things in combat, well probably everything, but I focus specifically on combat, happen subconsciously.
2
SPEAKER_00
Our brain is reading what s coming at us, and a lot of times it s stuff we ve seen before so we can judge how to move correctly.
2
SPEAKER_01
And you misread because it s something you haven t seen before.
2
SPEAKER_00
Had not seen it come at that specific angle, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
So that loss was really hard.
2
SPEAKER_00
With the Burroughs one, I told you, I knew I was gonna lose.
2
SPEAKER_00
So it was like, whatever.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m taking this because I want to put the sport of wrestling out there in a big way.
2
SPEAKER_00
I wanna help them raise a lot of money.
2
SPEAKER_00
We sold at Madison Square Garden, Hulu Theater, and we raised a whole bunch of money.
2
SPEAKER_00
So my goals were accomplished.
2
SPEAKER_00
Jake Paul fight, I took it because they paid me a whole bunch of money, and I thought it was gonna be fun.
2
SPEAKER_00
Did I have any illusion I was a great boxer?
2
SPEAKER_00
No illusions whatsoever.
2
SPEAKER_00
Would I have preferred to win?
2
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely, but like I told everyone,
2
SPEAKER_00
Whether I win or lose on Saturday night, I m going to be back coaching wrestling on Monday, because that s what I enjoy doing.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I was back coaching wrestling on Monday.
2
SPEAKER_00
And once in a while, these middle school kids give me a little bit of shit about it.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s it, but where were you in terms of your shape and how you felt in the Masvidal fight?
2
SPEAKER_01
Would you say you re on the, I mean, it s a difficult question to ask of a world-class athlete, but were you past peak?
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, yeah, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t know why guys like to lie about that.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, the peak for me was really evidently in my late 20s, and maybe they are all fueled by,
2
SPEAKER_00
extra supplements, I don t know.
2
SPEAKER_00
But for me, that was evident.
2
SPEAKER_00
But you get this, so you get this crosshair, where you re, if you re smart, like, you know, like I mentioned, John Burrows was, you re still gaining wisdom, you re gaining strategy, gaining a lot of things, right.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so while your physicality may go down, your overall skill level still may be rising, especially in MMA, because people usually start later.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because they re gaining wisdom, strategy, maybe more tools in their toolbox, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
They re getting all these things.
2
SPEAKER_00
So their actual competitive peak, despite their athletic peak going down, might still be a few years past that, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Because these things are crossing.
2
SPEAKER_00
No, so I thought I was great.
2
SPEAKER_00
Obviously, the hip was an issue.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s funny because I knew I had a lot of pain here, and I knew it was because of this.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it was like, okay, whenever I m done, I ll just get it taken care of, whatever.
2
SPEAKER_00
But every time I trained, I would have pain kind of like all up my back.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the day after the surgery,
2
SPEAKER_00
I woke up and there was no pain on the right side of my, the surgery was on the left side.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s no pain on the right side of my back.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m like, that s fucking weird.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like every morning I wake up, there s a lot of pain there, you know?
2
SPEAKER_00
I m like, okay, well, I m on pain pills.
2
SPEAKER_00
Maybe it ll come back tomorrow.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s clearly never been back since my incident.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, wow.
2
SPEAKER_00
So it was weird, because it was like this, I thought this was affecting this, but it was affecting,
2
SPEAKER_00
all the way across my whole back.
2
SPEAKER_00
So, you know, if I get to get a new hip, honestly, if I, I don t know if it s gonna change the competitive outcome whatsoever.
2
SPEAKER_00
If I had known how good the hip replacement was gonna be, I would have done it the second I retired from one championship in November of 2017.
2
SPEAKER_00
I would have had my hip surgery scheduled for December 1.
2
SPEAKER_00
Just from a lifestyle standpoint, I could only sleep in one position.
2
SPEAKER_00
There was a lot of things I couldn t do.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was in a lot of pain.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I would have done that a lot earlier.
2
SPEAKER_00
But no, from an athletic point, I was ready to, shit goes wrong sometimes.
2
SPEAKER_01
I don t know how to ask this, but Joe Rogan, me, had a sense about you similar to Fedor that you are potentially one of the greatest ever.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Does it hurt that you re not in the discussion now of being in the top 10 of all time?
2
SPEAKER_00
I didn t prove it.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t deserve it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Be at a, I mean.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I didn t prove it.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, and so it s like, had I somehow gotten to convince Dana White, we go and convince him in 2013 to make me an offer, and I didn t even need a good offer.
2
SPEAKER_00
I just needed any offer.
2
SPEAKER_00
Had I gotten the offer then, maybe the outcome s different, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
But given, I would never expect anyone to think of me that way.
2
SPEAKER_00
I didn t prove it.
2
SPEAKER_00
I know what I was.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I m good with that, and yeah, other people never got to see that.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s fine.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, you can t know fully, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
Do you think if you went to the UFC at that time instead of one championship?
2
SPEAKER_01
I think I would have had a lot of success.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I mean, there s obviously certain guys, there s a lot of guys I ve trained with that I had a lot of really good results against.
2
SPEAKER_00
Who was Walter Waite at that time?
2
SPEAKER_00
Tyron was a champion for a long time there.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I was around, Tyron was a champion, Anthony was a champion at lightweight, I was, you know, same gym as him.
2
SPEAKER_00
And we had a lot of people coming through.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I- Would you face Tyron?
2
SPEAKER_00
Would I have fought him?
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t think so.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, so he was still the champion when I came into the UFC and we said, no, we re not gonna fight.
2
SPEAKER_01
All right.
2
SPEAKER_00
Hey, so he can t change history, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
So once something happens, you gotta accept for what it is.
2
SPEAKER_00
move forward and obviously hope you can continue to keep accomplishing great things, which for me, obviously my athletic career is over.
2
SPEAKER_00
So now it s gonna be through my wrestling academies and who knows what else I get into.
2
SPEAKER_01
You might do exhibition matches and all that kind of stuff, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Says who?
2
SPEAKER_01
Wrestling and stuff, no?
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t think so.
2
SPEAKER_00
So here s my thing with the wrestling matches is like,
2
SPEAKER_00
Just for fun, if you said, hey, Ben, just for fun.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Would you love to go wrestle someone?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I would.
2
SPEAKER_00
I would, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
I love wrestling.
2
SPEAKER_00
I get in there.
2
SPEAKER_00
I love, you know, I love like, so one of my guys has gotten to be pretty good.
2
SPEAKER_00
He s in college, a guy named Keegan O Toole.
2
SPEAKER_00
He just won a junior world title this year.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so when,
2
SPEAKER_00
I m doing private lessons.
2
SPEAKER_00
I have such a thing about the development of the athlete.
2
SPEAKER_00
Sometimes I can wrestle hard, but most of the time it s like, I m just gonna help them with whatever they need help with.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s still wrestling and it s fun, but it s helping them.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, for like, for Keaton comes back this summer and he s trained for the general title.
2
SPEAKER_00
So to be able to just shake hands sometimes and say like, how am I trying to kick your ass?
2
SPEAKER_00
It s you trying to kick my ass, you know, like just to go like, it s so much fun.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I don t get to do that very much.
2
SPEAKER_00
So if you said, Ben, would you love to do some matches?
2
SPEAKER_00
And the answer is yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
The problem, unfortunately for me, and maybe you can talk me off the ledge here, is because of where I ve gotten to in my career, if I choose to do a wrestling match, people are going to be really excited about it.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s going to blow up.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, I just want to wrestle just to wrestle.
2
SPEAKER_00
I d rather just go in a room where no one can watch and just wrestle and just enjoy it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Well, you could also wrestle.
2
SPEAKER_01
So there s different kinds of wrestling.
2
SPEAKER_01
There s wrestling where there s an event and like, you know, there s a buildup and an announcement.
2
SPEAKER_01
And you can also do like a Khabib style, like in the room there s cameras and you re kind of going.
2
SPEAKER_01
Wait, Khabib does that?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
2
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I ve seen could be some videos.
2
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s not like set up It s just people going hard and then it s more fun.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you know and it s it s also more like
2
SPEAKER_01
presenting the beauty of the sport.
2
SPEAKER_01
And there s no winning or losing really in that context.
2
SPEAKER_01
You re always joking around a little bit, even when you go super hard.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I feel like, especially in the modern day with the internet, that s a compelling way to do.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I ve thought about, this is the one thing I ve thought about doing, because I told you about my buddy who is the content thing, it s called Rockfin.
2
SPEAKER_00
I thought about doing, you know the old, really famous Gracie Challenge?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so I thought about doing the Asking Challenge.
2
SPEAKER_00
You wanna hear my rule set?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, let s go.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m not sure I m gonna do this.
2
SPEAKER_00
People are gonna show up to your, like in Wisconsin.
2
SPEAKER_00
I have to select you.
2
SPEAKER_00
I ll start with a thousand bucks, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, 30 minutes.
2
SPEAKER_00
You pin me or I pin you.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s it.
2
SPEAKER_00
No points, no nothing.
2
SPEAKER_00
We just wrestle.
2
SPEAKER_00
Camera, that s it, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
There s a camera in the room.
2
SPEAKER_00
Maybe there s a referee, because we don t want there to be contention over the pin.
2
SPEAKER_00
Just one pin.
2
SPEAKER_00
Just one pin.
2
SPEAKER_00
30 minutes, 30 minutes, okay?
2
SPEAKER_00
If I pin you, you don t get shit.
2
SPEAKER_00
You go home, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Every person I pin, it goes up by $1,000, $2,000, $3,000, $4,000, $5,000, and so on.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you make it the distance and I don t pin you and you don t pin me, I ll pay for your travel and give you 500 bucks, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Just a kind of consolation prize for showing up.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you pin me, you get whatever the jackpot is.
2
SPEAKER_01
Wait, who s adding to the jackpot?
2
SPEAKER_00
I am.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s my it s my money.
2
SPEAKER_01
But then what s the incentive to keep winning for you?
2
SPEAKER_01
There s a jackpot.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I would put the content somewhere people would watch it.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, so you re gonna make money?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so you d make money.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s not exponentially growing, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
It s just going up by like,
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I really think there s probably only a couple people that could pin me.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I would either just not choose those people or wait till I get a really large audience and people get really excited.
2
SPEAKER_00
And in that case, I m making a lot of money.
2
SPEAKER_00
So.
2
SPEAKER_01
What do you think?
2
SPEAKER_01
How many matches would go with you?
2
SPEAKER_01
Like Khal Daik shows up.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t think he could pin me.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean like, Jordan Burrows could beat me.
2
SPEAKER_00
But he can t pin me.
2
SPEAKER_00
He was never a pinner.
2
SPEAKER_00
He ain t gonna pin me.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s only a few people who have the skill level to do so, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
It takes a lot.
2
SPEAKER_00
So pinning was one of my specialties.
2
SPEAKER_00
I had the fourth most of all time, and I won the pinning award the last two years.
2
SPEAKER_00
So you can get me down on points and just pin them.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is actually one of the issues I have with
2
SPEAKER_00
Jiu-Jitsu and the point system and the Eddie Bravo thing.
2
SPEAKER_00
I actually think the Eddie Bravo thing, people will get so mad at me.
2
SPEAKER_00
Sorry, Jiu-Jitsu.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think it s bullshit.
2
SPEAKER_00
And you want me to tell you why it s bullshit?
2
SPEAKER_00
So if Jordan Burroughs whoops my ass and the score is 16 to two, but he can t pin me, then I get to go to overtime and get a cradle on him?
2
SPEAKER_00
I m probably gonna pin him.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I m better than Jordan Burroughs?
2
SPEAKER_00
Nah, that ain t right.
2
SPEAKER_00
He just whooped my ass.
2
SPEAKER_00
Do you know what I m saying?
2
SPEAKER_00
If we can go the whole, because they do submission only.
2
SPEAKER_00
So if Jordan Burroughs beats me up,
2
SPEAKER_00
For what, is it eight minutes, 10 minutes?
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t know, what s the length of it, any Bravo match?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I don t know.
2
SPEAKER_01
Something like that, yeah, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
So we go 10, me and Joe Ambrose go 10, he s gonna outscore me significantly.
2
SPEAKER_00
He will not pin me, I promise you that, okay?
2
SPEAKER_00
So now we go to the overtime.
2
SPEAKER_00
Strong words, but yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
He won t, Joe Ambrose is not gonna, he s gonna beat me.
2
SPEAKER_00
I will give you that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Kyle Dake won t pin you either.
2
SPEAKER_00
No.
2
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
They will both beat me on points very badly.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now, David Taylor, he might pin me because he s a very good pinner also.
2
SPEAKER_00
They ll beat me very badly, they will not pin me.
2
SPEAKER_00
But now we get to overtime and we get to pick like, right, so in a Bravo, you get a rear naked choke or an arm bar.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, give me a cradle, I ll probably pin him, okay?
2
SPEAKER_00
A good cradle.
2
SPEAKER_00
You can say cradle or maybe give them, they re probably not gonna pin me, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Maybe there s a chance, but probably not, because that s just not their specialty.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so for people who don t know, the Eddie Bravo thing is, and it goes into overtime, you get a dominance position on a person and you get to, yeah, basically put them in a cradle, this is the wrestling equivalent, but you take their back around.
2
SPEAKER_00
Or maybe an armbar, yeah, like a wrestling armbar.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I don t think that s very fair.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because if someone whoops your ass, they whoop your ass.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so I think the reason why Jiu-Jitsu people accept that rule set is that I don t think, I think they know this but would admit it, I don t think their point scoring system adequately rewards what people value.
2
SPEAKER_00
So like in wrestling,
2
SPEAKER_00
would value takedowns, because it gets closer to the pin.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the most valuable scoring is a near fall, near to the pin, because that s the ultimate goal of the sport.
2
SPEAKER_00
Whereas in jujitsu, for example, if I were to get a takedown, so if I went to Gordon Ryan and he just didn t pull guard, I would probably get the takedown.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now, if somehow he didn t submit me, which he probably would, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
But say he got close to 12 submissions, but somehow I slipped out of all of them.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now I went to zero, like that s ridiculous.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like he should very clearly win because he almost submitted.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know what I m saying?
2
SPEAKER_00
And I realized the difficulty.
2
SPEAKER_00
I realized the difficulty in rewarding near submissions, but that is the most valuable thing is getting close to finishing the match.
2
SPEAKER_00
And in most competitions, they don t actually reward that.
2
SPEAKER_01
But okay, so this isn t about the sport.
2
SPEAKER_01
This is about the Ben Askren challenge that we re talking about.
2
SPEAKER_01
Why 30 minutes?
2
SPEAKER_01
Why not unlimited time?
2
SPEAKER_01
Why go until whenever?
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, because then it s just a cardio thing, because at some point, then someone would just have to fall over dead, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
There s no more skill level involved.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s just who can stand up the longest.
2
SPEAKER_01
You honestly don t think?
2
SPEAKER_01
30 minutes is a cardio thing, too.
2
SPEAKER_01
How do you think that s actually going to look?
2
SPEAKER_01
Kyle Dake going against you for 30 minutes.
2
SPEAKER_00
So it s going to be kind of boring for the most part.
2
SPEAKER_00
What position are you going to be stuck in?
2
SPEAKER_00
But you just can t have a gigantic amount of action for 30 minutes.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I relate it, because some of my kids, when I m teaching them wrestling, they re like, well, but I can t do that for seven minutes.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, well, say if I had you do hang cleans at a relatively heavy weight as hard as you could, you re not gonna last seven minutes.
2
SPEAKER_00
your pace will slow down, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
So my thing is like, well, your pace doesn t have to stay up here, because in wrestling, you re competing against someone.
2
SPEAKER_00
So if you re here at 100, and you go to 80, but they go to 70, that s great.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then you go to 60, but they go to 40, this is even better, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
Because the gap is growing.
2
SPEAKER_00
So we don t necessarily, if we get tired, that s fine.
2
SPEAKER_00
If they get more tired, that s better.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I think most people would know that, so they would kind of slow it down.
2
SPEAKER_00
But yeah, I think at 30, I mean, I ve wrestled 30 minute goes, I ve wrestled hour long goes.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re not gonna get so tired, you re gonna fall over in that time period.
2
SPEAKER_00
But at some point, if it s unlimited, someone will get so tired or dehydrated that they re just gonna freaking fall over.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, but you think, what about making it exciting and dynamic?
2
SPEAKER_01
You think the other person is always going to be going for the pin, and therefore I make it dynamic.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, if they were working that hard, then they might
3
SPEAKER_00
exhaust themselves, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
And obviously then, if you re being that dynamic, then you re adding risk to yourself, too, because you are, you know, doing that.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, I love this.
3
SPEAKER_00
This is a great idea.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, I figure I d rack up like 20 pins against bums, you know, or not as great people in the beginning, and then I would start bringing in better people, because they would be enticed by, you know, $20,000, the possibility to win.
3
SPEAKER_01
And not much fanfare, just a camera and just a local.
3
SPEAKER_00
Just a camera, that s it, in my wrestling room.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, like the Gracie Challenge.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so then maybe you have like, you know, for most people, you have someone edit, like, the 90 seconds of the most fun things that happen, and then you can watch the entire 30 minutes if you want to.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
I think most people, if they re not really, really elite, I m probably going to pin them.
3
SPEAKER_00
If they re not really elite.
3
SPEAKER_00
So, yeah, but I don t know.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s something I ve been thinking about that s just been fun for me to think about.
3
SPEAKER_00
And obviously, it plays to my skill sets, because my cardio is good, and my pinning is good also.
3
SPEAKER_00
So, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
So, like you said, you weren t very good in your early days, until 13, 14.
3
SPEAKER_01
What was the switch?
3
SPEAKER_01
You started to dominate people.
3
SPEAKER_01
And in your college career, you dominated
3
SPEAKER_01
and obviously you stop losing at some point.
3
SPEAKER_00
So even when I didn t lose in collegiate competition, I would go in the summers and try to make the world team.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I would lose some, not a lot, right, minimally.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so when I m five, I start playing all sports.
3
SPEAKER_00
I know you moved to America at what age?
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay, so at least, I don t know what it was for you, but in America, at my age, you usually played like a sport every season, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
So that s what I did in the beginning.
3
SPEAKER_00
I had minimal success in wrestling.
3
SPEAKER_00
I was kind of chunky.
3
SPEAKER_00
And in fifth grade, and I can t tell you, I wanted to be better.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I told my parents, and this is funny, because now I look at other 11-year-olds, and very few of them are this mature.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I actually think emotional maturity is kind of one of the key indicators of how long-term success someone s going to be.
3
SPEAKER_00
And at age 11, I said, I don t want to play baseball.
3
SPEAKER_00
I like baseball, but I don t want to play baseball because I want to wrestle more because I want to get better at wrestling.
3
SPEAKER_00
So at age 11, I quit baseball so I could wrestle in a club for March, April, and May, because that was all that existed at that point in time.
3
SPEAKER_00
You couldn t wrestle in June, July, or any of those other months.
3
SPEAKER_01
What was that desire to get better?
3
SPEAKER_01
What is it?
3
SPEAKER_01
So it s not about winning.
3
SPEAKER_00
I don t know where it came from.
3
SPEAKER_00
I just want to get better.
3
SPEAKER_00
I want to get better.
3
SPEAKER_00
I want to be good at this.
3
SPEAKER_00
I want to be really good at this.
3
SPEAKER_01
So when you re looking at kids now as a coach, you re looking for that.
3
SPEAKER_01
Somebody who says, you know what?
3
SPEAKER_01
I kind of suck.
3
SPEAKER_01
I want to get better.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I want to try to also inspire that.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, honestly, I think
3
SPEAKER_00
I think as a coach, that s probably my biggest job is to get a kid and get them to believe I can do this.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because if I can do this, what can t I?
3
SPEAKER_00
I can do that.
3
SPEAKER_00
I can do that too, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
And there s so many kids who unfortunately have like shitty parents or bad teachers that tell them, you suck, you can t be anything, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
So I think my biggest goal as a coach is to get someone to believe they can do it.
3
SPEAKER_00
So actually some of the ones that believe they can do it,
3
SPEAKER_00
They re the most fun, but they re not the ones who need it the most, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
The ones who think they can are the ones that need me the most.
3
SPEAKER_00
They need someone to, let s go.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I don t know what inspired me.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m not sure.
3
SPEAKER_00
So age 11, fifth grade, I quit.
3
SPEAKER_00
So then I started having,
3
SPEAKER_00
more success, you know, where I m, like, say, placing at the state tournament.
3
SPEAKER_00
In high school.
3
SPEAKER_00
So you re right.
3
SPEAKER_00
So sixth grade, I placed at, like, the state local youth state tournament, you know, so I m, like, having more success.
3
SPEAKER_00
Seventh grade was the first year I won the youth state tournament, so I m getting better.
3
SPEAKER_00
Eighth grade, I actually feel like I got pretty good, but, like, when I went to the national tournaments, I was still having really minimal success.
3
SPEAKER_00
My freshman year, I decided to quit football, same reason.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like, well, I need to put more time into this.
3
SPEAKER_00
My parents, we got, my dad luckily got a mat in my basement.
3
SPEAKER_00
So, you know, there s no, so we have a year-round club and our impetus was that we didn t have this opportunity to go to a club year-round.
3
SPEAKER_00
So we had a mat in my basement.
3
SPEAKER_00
I had to go find, hey, you wanna come wrestle?
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, yeah, to find partners for myself.
3
SPEAKER_01
What d you do?
3
SPEAKER_01
Did you drill?
3
SPEAKER_01
Did you live wrestle?
3
SPEAKER_01
What d you do in that basement?
3
SPEAKER_00
So actually, I think you ll enjoy this.
3
SPEAKER_00
I think the start of,
3
SPEAKER_00
my scrambling was kind of based around that.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I got kind of, I think it s probably my freshman, sophomore, I m kind of, the years are a little fuzzy, but it s been a while.
3
SPEAKER_00
But probably my freshman, sophomore, junior year, I found two kids who were really consistent, who would come out, like you would come out, he would come out on Tuesday and this dude would come out on Wednesday, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
And they would come every week and they were really consistent partners for me.
3
SPEAKER_00
to have in the summer, but they weren t nearly as good as me.
3
SPEAKER_00
They were way worse.
3
SPEAKER_00
So it s like, okay, how do I make this kind of fun and compelling for them to come back?
3
SPEAKER_00
If I just whoop their ass, they re not going to come back.
3
SPEAKER_00
So it was like, I would let them get as close as I thought they could do a takedown,
3
SPEAKER_00
before not getting it, and then try to escape or get out.
3
SPEAKER_00
So obviously if I let them get really close, sometimes they get it, so they re enjoying it.
3
SPEAKER_00
I don t know if they ever knew I was doing this, I have no idea.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that was kind of like the start, because I had to figure my way out of bad positions, because I had to try to make it entertaining for them, where they still got something out of it, and they wanted to come back the next week.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I also got something out of it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I love this.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because that relationship is so important.
3
SPEAKER_01
I ve had a few drilling partners, training partners, that were really important to my life.
3
SPEAKER_01
I always wonder why it s difficult, why it s so difficult to find them.
3
SPEAKER_01
If anyone s listening to this, I m looking for a judo person in the Austin area, actually.
3
SPEAKER_01
Getting the reps with people is hard.
3
SPEAKER_01
Even in jujitsu, it s just like people wanna do the fun stuff.
3
SPEAKER_01
They don t wanna really put in the work.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it takes a certain kind of personality.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then you also have to make it fun for the other person, just like you said.
3
SPEAKER_01
If there s a skill mismatch, but also if you have an interest mismatch in terms of the amount of drilling you want to do, all that kind of stuff, you have to figure out ways to make it fun.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s tricky.
3
SPEAKER_01
So you did.
3
SPEAKER_00
So yeah, I think I did that and no one told me.
3
SPEAKER_00
I get frustrated because now we have, you know, just in my academy we probably have
3
SPEAKER_00
50, 60, high school kids only that are year-round.
3
SPEAKER_00
They re year-round.
3
SPEAKER_00
Maybe they re not as consistent in the summer or whatever, but they re there.
3
SPEAKER_00
So when they don t have a great partner, they start whining.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like, you little bitches.
3
SPEAKER_00
Some days I get really mad about it, because it s like, I had no partner.
3
SPEAKER_00
I had to find freaking two partners to come twice a week.
3
SPEAKER_00
You guys, there s still 22 people in the room.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m sorry there s not the perfect partner for you, but go work out with that dude.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
So what was the switch, the change, or was this gradual?
3
SPEAKER_01
Gradual, okay.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so let s do it.
3
SPEAKER_00
So ninth grade, I quit football, because I wanted to get really serious.
3
SPEAKER_00
What position, football?
3
SPEAKER_00
I was actually a nose tackle.
3
SPEAKER_00
But at that point, so okay, so I was also, the other thing I kind of left over is I was really fat growing up.
3
SPEAKER_00
In sixth grade, I also decided, okay, I m really fat, and if I want to be competitive wrestling, I shouldn t be fat, because weight matters.
3
SPEAKER_00
I went from 130 pounds to 100 pounds in sixth grade.
3
SPEAKER_00
Nice.
3
SPEAKER_00
So by the time I was a freshman, I was 119.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I still wasn t as heavy as I was when I was in sixth grade.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I was pretty small too, but I was also slow, unfortunately.
3
SPEAKER_00
So they put me in nose tackle.
3
SPEAKER_00
I like the competitiveness, so I was decent at it.
3
SPEAKER_00
So that s where you wrestled, 119?
3
SPEAKER_00
My freshman year, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
So yeah, so then I still, I started having a lot of success statewide, but not nationally.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s my national success didn t come to like my junior year in high school.
3
SPEAKER_00
But yeah, I was like grinding and getting better the whole time.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then senior year, I started having a lot of success nationally and I got recruited.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then, but then even when my freshman year of college, I, this is where I love competing.
3
SPEAKER_00
I would go every weekend because I knew, if you take the emotions out of competition,
3
SPEAKER_00
All it is is seeing your failures, acknowledging them, and then figuring out what you need to work on, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
If we take all the emotion out of it, that s what it is.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I wrestled 50 matches as a redshirt freshman, which is incredibly rare.
3
SPEAKER_00
I had 10 losses.
3
SPEAKER_00
So it s not like to not so great guys, you know?
3
SPEAKER_00
So like my skill level still at that point was not that great.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then the next year I came out and I made the NCAA finals.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I made a gigantic jump in that redshirt year.
3
SPEAKER_00
to the real freshman year.
3
SPEAKER_01
So a few questions.
3
SPEAKER_01
Where did the funk style of wrestling, the creative style, get developed?
3
SPEAKER_01
At which stage?
3
SPEAKER_00
So I think looking retroactively, there was no intention to start when I was in high school with those kids, but I think that s kind of like what was happening, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
So what I would really say is I had one influential coach my retro year of college named Mike Ironman, great guy.
3
SPEAKER_00
But then the second thing was it was just out of necessity.
3
SPEAKER_00
I had this burning desire to be the best.
3
SPEAKER_00
And when I was getting my ass kicked every day in the room, because we had retirement was there, we had All-American 157, we had All-American 184.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I wasn t having a ton of success.
3
SPEAKER_00
And very quickly, I realized from a more traditional athletic perspective, strength and speed, I couldn t keep up with anyone.
3
SPEAKER_00
I was way worse.
3
SPEAKER_00
So it s like, OK, fuck.
3
SPEAKER_00
How do I do this?
3
SPEAKER_00
I want to do this.
3
SPEAKER_00
How do I do this?
3
SPEAKER_00
There s got to be a way.
3
SPEAKER_00
So Mike Ironman showed me a couple of things.
3
SPEAKER_00
But then it was just like this.
3
SPEAKER_00
creative expansion for the next, you know, through, say, three to five years.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then even now, it s like, I don t know, there s something and maybe you feel this way about judo or there s something that s like fun about the way the body moves and works and and exploring something new and thinking about, hey, wrestling s been happening at a relative high level for, we ll say, 80 to 90 years in America.
3
SPEAKER_00
And there s still new things being developed.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so when you see something new, you re like, oh, damn, like, that s great.
3
SPEAKER_00
Or like, Jason Nolte may have to win Dixie.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m like, how did I not think of that shit?
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, why did I think of that?
3
SPEAKER_00
It s so easy.
3
SPEAKER_00
I should have thought of that, you know?
3
SPEAKER_00
So there s this, like, obsession with the sport of wrestling and positions where
3
SPEAKER_00
I actually think sometimes, thank God we didn t have smartphones, because I may have been distracted by my smartphone.
3
SPEAKER_00
Maybe I wouldn t have been, because I was so obsessed, but maybe.
3
SPEAKER_00
But some days I couldn t finish the single leg on a specific person, or maybe they were finishing on me, and it was like, go home, and I was just fucking obsessed about that one position.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like, okay, what am I missing here?
3
SPEAKER_00
And not just accepting that whatever the coach says is the answer, but like, what am I missing?
3
SPEAKER_00
What ways can my body move that no one s told me it can move yet?
3
SPEAKER_00
where can my arms go, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Where can I do all these things?
3
SPEAKER_00
And so I would just obsess about these things.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then, you know, sometimes you come in the next day and you say, oh, well, maybe this, you know, and maybe it works, maybe it doesn t, maybe it works twice and then it doesn t work the next time.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so you kind of like have this creative process and it s like, you know, there s a lot of things that are on the cutting room floor that never made it to the light because you thought they d be good and they failed and they sucked.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then, you know, to the point where like my senior year,
3
SPEAKER_00
I got to this point where the people, they were just figures.
3
SPEAKER_00
Figures would wrestle in my head about positions I was thinking about.
3
SPEAKER_00
I wouldn t tell them what to do.
3
SPEAKER_00
They would just go in my head.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then like some, oh fuck, wait.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s it, that s it.
3
SPEAKER_00
That just happened, that s the move, and then I go try to practice, and sure enough, boom, that s the move.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s exactly where you have AlphaZero playing, learning chess.
3
SPEAKER_01
You have, it s called self-plays.
3
SPEAKER_01
You have, what, did the figures have like a clear?
3
SPEAKER_00
No faces, they were just like.
3
SPEAKER_01
Did they have a human form, or is it just like stick figures, essentially?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it was not like humans, it was more like stick figures.
3
SPEAKER_00
It wasn t stick figures exactly, like they were.
3
SPEAKER_00
They had some volume?
3
SPEAKER_00
It was like a gray person, and they had three dimensions, essentially, because I had to see how the things moved, and yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, this is exactly what OpenAI and DeepMind and Google, I don t know if you ve seen, but there s something called reinforcement learning in artificial intelligence, where they ve done it for sumo wrestling.
3
SPEAKER_01
You have these two stick figures that don t even know how to get up at first.
3
SPEAKER_01
and they figure out how to stand on their two feet.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then they figure out how to push the other person off of the pedestal.
3
SPEAKER_00
But what about like when you look at the Boston Dynamics, sometimes they have trouble with like jumping and balancing and the other stuff.
3
SPEAKER_00
So are they doing that same program or no?
3
SPEAKER_01
No, no, no, no.
3
SPEAKER_01
Everything Boston Dynamics is doing is hard-coded.
3
SPEAKER_01
So it s not learning the,
3
SPEAKER_01
all the sophisticated movements and strategies, like high-level strategies and movement, that s all something that Boston Dynamics does not do.
3
SPEAKER_01
And if it does it, like the parkour stuff, that s all hard-coded in.
3
SPEAKER_01
People project and think these robots have discovered how to move in sophisticated ways they haven t.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, that s why when you and John were talking about the grappling robot, I mean, the one thing I was obsessing about in my head is that
3
SPEAKER_00
with the chest, right, if a chest piece moves, right, the horse can move like an L, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
It can only move like an L. It doesn t matter if it moves at two meters per second or seven meters per second.
3
SPEAKER_00
It can only move there, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Whereas like a single leg, I can shoot a single leg with many different velocities.
3
SPEAKER_00
I can shoot at different angles.
3
SPEAKER_00
I can shoot with different amounts of force.
3
SPEAKER_00
I can shoot with my head up versus my head.
3
SPEAKER_00
All these things are gonna matter.
3
SPEAKER_00
If we re talking about a human being defending a single leg, all of those things are gonna matter.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that s where human beings who wrestle are calculating those things subconsciously.
3
SPEAKER_00
They re obviously not consciously calculating in their head, oh, the force is coming at me at this, so I need to do that.
3
SPEAKER_00
They re just doing it.
3
SPEAKER_01
But see, the thing is, so you would absolutely, if you re doing a robot that you re wrestling, you re going to have to constrain the speed at which it moves and the power that it s able to deliver.
3
SPEAKER_01
So that presumably, that ll be the limitation.
3
SPEAKER_01
So then it ll be just the same exactly as a human.
3
SPEAKER_00
But then, so if we go human, max force, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Jordan Bro s double, max force, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
That s the highest, that s the highest we get.
3
SPEAKER_00
Then we go down from there.
3
SPEAKER_00
Even even with even within that, it s like sometimes I can shoot a single with a maximum force of, I don t want to say we ll say 20 is the number, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
I don t know, shoot at 20 because I feel sometimes I shoot at 15, sometimes I shoot at 12, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Because you you feel something in your opponent that makes you differently.
3
SPEAKER_00
So they would have to learn how and then, you know, all of these different things.
3
SPEAKER_00
And sometimes maybe I clamp a little harder.
3
SPEAKER_00
So the the robot would have to learn all these different incoming inputs to the system and then create this reaction.
3
SPEAKER_01
Oh no, no, no.
3
100%.
3
SPEAKER_01
So this would be all continuous.
3
SPEAKER_01
So unlike chess, it would not be.
3
SPEAKER_01
Chess is discrete.
3
SPEAKER_01
You move.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s a very specific set of moves.
3
SPEAKER_01
Now here, those are all variables you control, and they re continuous variables.
3
SPEAKER_01
So the speed, the force.
3
SPEAKER_01
There s actuators, so there s all these joints, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
You can move.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it s just an optimization problem.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s kind of fascinating.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I ve been fascinated thinking about it since you guys talked about it.
3
SPEAKER_00
It was a long time ago.
3
SPEAKER_00
I listened to it probably three to four weeks ago.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I ve kind of been like obsessing about it ever since.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it just changes when, so unlike boxing, for example, or striking, once you grab a hold of somebody, you re now one body.
3
SPEAKER_01
So it s very complicated.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s not just shooting a double leg without, like maybe doing like,
3
SPEAKER_01
Like faking a double leg and then shooting the double leg that s very doable with robotics but then like doing a clinch and from there doing like a Russian tie like that
3
SPEAKER_01
I think that s way harder than people realize in terms of how many things are involved, like the force of the grip, the leverage you re providing with all the different parts of the shoulder and the arm and the torso, the twist, how much of your weight are you allocating, like leaning on the other person, like taking weight off of one of your legs and the other leg, all of that.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think that s the really interesting thing about humans is we re able to do all of this calculation.
3
SPEAKER_01
Subconsciously.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, subconsciously.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and that s what I ve been thinking about since we is like how many things even these high school athletes who are like getting medium good are subconsciously thinking about all the time or not even not even think about reacting to.
3
SPEAKER_00
But then even like for me, I m, you know, I m a few orders of magnitude better than some of these kids that play.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so when I when I go like super hard, it s like,
3
SPEAKER_00
I can feel their weight moving the wrong direction, and so for me to off-balance them or trip them or whatever is kind of easy sometimes, you know?
3
SPEAKER_00
Because they re not feeling it the right way, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
Or their timing s just a little bit off, or the way they re grabbing the hip, maybe they should be up a little higher, right?
3
SPEAKER_00
These really small things.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think that s all easy to take advantage of for a robot.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s just, there s so many things.
3
SPEAKER_01
The big problem is ethically,
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t know how many people are willing to train with a robot because you re going to get hurt.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, couldn t you make a robot train with a robot?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yes, but then it s expensive.
4
SPEAKER_00
Put the padding on that thing.
4
SPEAKER_00
I know, but then it s not, you know, then you re not capturing the full.
4
SPEAKER_01
Why can t you put like some rubber coating on them?
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, something for that effect.
4
SPEAKER_00
You could.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, you could.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
You could.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, you re talking about robots that are, these are humanoid robots.
4
SPEAKER_00
So we re talking about 500,000 million dollar robots.
4
SPEAKER_00
So you would have to be motivated to spend a lot of money because you have to have them wrestle for like a lot to get better.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then the open question is,
4
SPEAKER_00
How long does it take to get good enough to be a human?
4
SPEAKER_00
I don t think we understand, I don t know, I don t think you understand how hard wrestling is.
4
SPEAKER_00
Is it a really hard problem?
4
SPEAKER_00
What s harder, chess or wrestling?
4
SPEAKER_01
Wrestling, by far, and I am close.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s, yeah, that s the sense I have.
4
SPEAKER_01
So because there s an infinite amount of moves, right, and possibilities, so once I shoot the single leg, now you have X amount of choices.
4
SPEAKER_01
Once you make your choice, now I have a choice, X amount of choices.
4
SPEAKER_01
Now you have X amount of choices on the defense, and we can just keep going back and forth, right, and this number becomes... Yeah, but the same happens with chess.
4
SPEAKER_01
Correct.
4
SPEAKER_01
But then in wrestling, you have to make these
4
SPEAKER_01
movements very instantaneously, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
Because if I shoot a single leg, I m not going to wait and say, what s your defense?
4
SPEAKER_01
You have to be instantaneous.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then also, again, based on the force and the vectors and the angles, you have to calculate that and adjust.
4
SPEAKER_01
So really, you know, if you re saying, well, I can shoot a single leg, it s not like moving the chest.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s not one move, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
If you want to talk about different forces and stuff, it could be hundreds or thousands of different moves based on how hard I shoot it, the angle, the direction, all of those things.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, but wait a minute, so robots can do this kind of stuff really fast.
4
SPEAKER_00
People probably know the physiology of this, but the reaction speed for a human is maybe 100 milliseconds, something like that.
4
SPEAKER_00
I don t know, from sensation to, like from the signal traveling up to your brain and down, I don t know what that number is, but robots certainly could do it way faster.
4
SPEAKER_00
You would actually have to constrain the speed.
4
SPEAKER_01
Well, so the robots are already killing the chess people, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
So, yeah, theoretically, they could eventually beat wrestlers, but you asked what was hard, wrestling or chess.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I think wrestling is, because of the time component in it, and the physicality of, you know, is it this force or that force, you know, because if I m gonna say, say we re in a seatbelt side by side, right, a wrestling seatbelt, not a jujitsu, based on the pressure you re giving me, I might do a bunch of different things, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
And so, like, to an untrained eye,
4
SPEAKER_01
they might both look like the same thing from you.
4
SPEAKER_01
To a trained feel, it s like, well, in one case, it s really evident I should go this way.
4
SPEAKER_01
In another case, it s really evident I should go that way.
4
SPEAKER_00
So the other thing to consider, just like with chess, the AI systems, so human versus human play a certain way together.
4
SPEAKER_00
They actually haven t considered a really large number of strategies that AI systems discover.
4
SPEAKER_00
So one possibility with a robot, they ll discover certain ties and certain takedowns.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s what I m saying.
4
SPEAKER_00
That will dominate no matter what the human does.
4
SPEAKER_01
You think that is so you think there s that?
4
SPEAKER_01
So this I mean, it s a time with the wrestling.
4
SPEAKER_01
So fun is there s even after 80, 90 years, there s this continuous evolution.
4
SPEAKER_00
So you get some like low single type thing, like John Smith type of situation.
4
SPEAKER_01
Well, I get down, but go behind is something that has really, I would say, really in the last five years has really been evolved.
4
SPEAKER_01
What s it go behind?
4
SPEAKER_01
Down block, go behind.
4
SPEAKER_01
So when you shoot, head inside or head outside matters, but there s one for both.
4
SPEAKER_01
You shoot at me, essentially, I take my leg, boom.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so that was kind of in existence when I was in college, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
You down block them and you stop, but usually you hit on this side of their head, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
And now immediately as you shoot, I attack that shoulder and then I start hitting a go behind on you.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so that, in its current incarnation, it absolutely wasn t around when I was in college.
4
SPEAKER_01
I would say it probably became popular five to seven years ago.
4
SPEAKER_01
So yeah, there s these big things that are happening.
4
SPEAKER_01
Now I really wanna roll back, because I wanna be ahead of the game.
4
SPEAKER_01
I wanna know what I m missing.
4
SPEAKER_00
I mean, one interesting thing you have with AlphaZero that plays chess,
4
SPEAKER_00
is it sacrifices pieces much more than humans do.
4
SPEAKER_00
So give you a piece.
4
SPEAKER_00
And not only does it give you a piece, it will wait a bunch of moves before it makes you pay.
4
SPEAKER_00
So.
4
SPEAKER_01
Because it knows that that s better for the long term.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, long term.
4
SPEAKER_00
So like humans rarely sacrifice without getting the piece back like two or three moves after.
4
SPEAKER_00
AlphaZero can wait like five moves.
4
SPEAKER_00
So basically you ll have, potentially with wrestling, you might have a robot that like puts itself in bad positions, but in a certain kind of way that will actually.
4
SPEAKER_01
Lures the opponent in to trap them.
4
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s what my style s based on.
4
SPEAKER_00
You basically narrow, one thing to do is you narrow the set of choices.
4
SPEAKER_00
You put yourself in a bad position, but it narrows the set of choices.
4
SPEAKER_01
For them, because they re not used to it.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, they re not used to it, and then you drag them into your... Yeah, so, but there s also...
4
SPEAKER_00
The problem is there s mechanical issues.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, it s actually just difficult to build robots that are able to sense, because we have sensation throughout our body, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s just difficult to build that kind of robot.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s expensive.
4
SPEAKER_00
You start talking about multimillion dollars, and then people start asking questions.
4
SPEAKER_00
Why did you invest all of this money?
4
SPEAKER_01
Don t ask me what moves I do, duh, hello.
4
SPEAKER_00
It could be a better investment.
4
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
4
SPEAKER_00
So I mentioned John Smith.
4
SPEAKER_00
He is, if people don t know, one of the great wrestlers, wrestling coaches ever.
4
SPEAKER_00
He s also creative like you.
4
SPEAKER_00
He spoke really highly of you.
4
SPEAKER_00
What do you think about that guy?
4
SPEAKER_00
Do you guys ever work together?
4
SPEAKER_01
Not really.
4
SPEAKER_01
So you know what, when I was a senior and I had the people wrestling in my head, I was lucky enough to be doing,
4
SPEAKER_01
I was pretty much graduated, so I did an independent study with the sports psych.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was potentially gonna go to grad school for sports psych.
4
SPEAKER_01
Well, I actually did nine credits, and then I just decided I didn t wanna do it anymore.
4
SPEAKER_01
I continued learning on my own.
4
SPEAKER_01
But I had an independent study with the guy who s the head of USA Track and Field Sports Psych.
4
SPEAKER_01
So the class was, I got to go sit down and talk with him for an hour, and he was fascinated by me.
4
SPEAKER_01
So he didn t let me make me a homework.
4
SPEAKER_01
It was the greatest three credits ever.
4
SPEAKER_01
We just talked.
4
SPEAKER_01
I learned so much.
4
SPEAKER_01
It was so awesome.
4
SPEAKER_01
But so I started, so one time it came up that I had these robot or people wrestling in my head, you know?
4
SPEAKER_01
And he said, well, who else do you think?
4
SPEAKER_01
I said, I bet John Smith happened.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I went and got John Smith s number.
4
SPEAKER_01
I called him and said, hey, you ever had these people wrestling in your head?
4
SPEAKER_01
And he said, yeah, but as soon as I stopped coaching, they went away.
4
SPEAKER_01
Same thing happened to me.
4
SPEAKER_01
As soon as I started coaching, they went away.
4
SPEAKER_01
So if I really force myself now and I m like,
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, I see some in practice and it s really high level because high school wrestling, I don t want to make you feel bad, but it s like it s a little bit lower level.
4
SPEAKER_01
Right.
4
SPEAKER_01
So if like Keegan, for example, who won the jury, if he s struggling with a problem or ask me a question.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I can force myself to, like, see the bodies moving and think about it again, you know, kind of like I was an early age, but it won t just it won t just flow there anymore.
4
SPEAKER_01
So he said it went away.
4
SPEAKER_01
And for me, it went away also.
4
SPEAKER_00
By the way, if we can pause on the bodies in your head, how are they generating new ideas?
4
SPEAKER_00
Are they just kind of... I don t know.
4
SPEAKER_01
You tell me.
4
SPEAKER_00
So it s just, they re just like scrambling in your head?
4
SPEAKER_01
It would be specifically based on a problem I was struggling with or a specific position, you know?
4
SPEAKER_00
It goes in for a single and then go from there.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so I m sitting in geography class and I don t have to work that hard because it s easy, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
And yeah, I m just sitting there kind of acting like I m looking at the board and these guys are wrestling and I m watching them wrestle and yeah, sometimes they come up with a really good solution.
4
SPEAKER_00
Is there somebody you looked up to style-wise?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like Gable, John Smith, all these like legend status people.
4
SPEAKER_01
Probably Gable, John Smith after the fact.
4
SPEAKER_01
So the problem with wrestling in my era was you couldn t watch it.
4
SPEAKER_01
There was no access, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
It wasn t really available.
4
SPEAKER_01
Even if you wanted to say,
4
SPEAKER_01
go find a bunch of John Smith, man, they re kind of hard to find, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
There s a couple of them on YouTube, but I ve obviously seen all of those.
4
SPEAKER_01
But in my era, there really wasn t any of it.
4
SPEAKER_01
So it was hard to be a fan of something.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that s why wrestling has, the fans are going like this because now, you flip on the Flow app and you can watch something that s happening in Europe, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
We can do this easily.
4
SPEAKER_01
So we can be a fan of people.
4
SPEAKER_01
So now I m more a fan of wrestling than I was then because there just was no access.
4
SPEAKER_01
So now I can watch someone I like and say, oh, shit, like that guy s wrestling.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, boom.
4
SPEAKER_01
I put my phone on.
4
SPEAKER_01
I watch them wrestle, you know, that type of thing.
4
SPEAKER_00
You know, on a quick rant, it s really frustrating that you can t watch the Olympics.
4
SPEAKER_01
Oh, my God.
4
SPEAKER_01
So frustrating.
4
SPEAKER_00
I ve been I think I m going to go to war.
4
SPEAKER_01
Go to NBC s headquarters.
4
SPEAKER_01
I ll go with you.
4
SPEAKER_01
You got it.
4
SPEAKER_01
You got a soldier here.
4
SPEAKER_00
I was talking to Jimmy, Jimmy Pedro, he was surprised by this too.
4
SPEAKER_00
Most matches you can t see, even you talk about like a comeback, Gable Stevenson, you can t see the full match.
4
SPEAKER_01
You get like a crappy highlight.
4
SPEAKER_01
So the two biggest things in Rattler, and really the three, the NCAA championships and ASPN.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
The Olympic trials are on NBC, and the Olympics are on NBC.
4
SPEAKER_01
And these companies are so big, they don t have a department dedicated to selling the rights to that footage, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
So the rights to wrestling footage, which no one really cares all that much about except a niche, are the exact same as track and field or basketball in the Olympics.
4
SPEAKER_01
So yes, all of this stuff is completely inaccessible to us.
4
SPEAKER_01
The NCAAs, the Olympic trials, and the Olympics, you can t go watch old film on it.
4
SPEAKER_01
It sucks.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, all the current film.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah So you came to watch the Gable match?
4
SPEAKER_00
The Gable seals?
4
SPEAKER_00
No, they did a you know, they do something that annoys the fuck out of me.
4
SPEAKER_00
What?
4
SPEAKER_00
Okay, they they they they do like a three or two minute highlight so it s like they capture the most important thing but
4
SPEAKER_00
Like it s all about the buildup.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s like that very beginning when you step on the mat and the nerves and you walk out and like that, I mean, I don t know.
4
SPEAKER_00
You miss, then when the triumph happens or the heartbreak happens, it has that much more power.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, if you want to go to war with NBC or ESPN, I m happy to join that.
4
SPEAKER_00
This is bullshit.
4
SPEAKER_00
IOC.
4
SPEAKER_01
Well, I mean, does the IOC own that?
4
SPEAKER_00
IOC is selling that for the Olympics is the one that s making.
4
SPEAKER_01
Well, so NBC broadcast, so they obviously have the live rights.
4
SPEAKER_01
You would think they would have recorded if they I mean, they re the ones recording it.
4
SPEAKER_01
You think they keep the rights when you think?
4
SPEAKER_00
No, no, no.
4
SPEAKER_00
They re getting a license of it.
4
SPEAKER_00
They re getting exclusive like license.
4
SPEAKER_00
But like the you know, for example,
4
SPEAKER_00
I ve had this, I talked to Travis Stevens, the judo player, and there s a really sort of famous match, it s a heartbreak in his career from 2012 Olympics, where he goes against a German, Oleg Bischoff, whatever.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s a 20 minute match to go to war, and that s not available anywhere, but it s uploaded on YouTube,
4
SPEAKER_00
and set to private.
4
SPEAKER_00
The reason I know this is on the IOC channel.
4
SPEAKER_00
So they ve uploaded all of these matches.
4
SPEAKER_01
They have it and put it up?
4
SPEAKER_01
So actually, so my Olympic match, the one I won,
4
SPEAKER_01
got put public, and I don t know if it was private, it got put up on YouTube.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was alerted to it the week of my Jake Paul fight.
4
SPEAKER_01
It was so dumb.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m like, what?
4
SPEAKER_01
This is 13 years later.
4
SPEAKER_01
This is bullshit.
4
SPEAKER_01
This should have been up.
4
SPEAKER_01
So what about Olympic trials footage?
4
SPEAKER_01
That has to be the USOC then or NBC?
4
SPEAKER_01
So I know like, okay, so I know Flow, right, because I work for them.
4
SPEAKER_01
I know if Flow buys your event or whatever, right, they buy the rights, generally in the contract, they ll have rights to both live stream it and then use that footage at any point moving forward.
4
SPEAKER_01
So those matches live on Flow s website.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s why I would be surprised if NBC didn t have something similar.
4
SPEAKER_00
flow does a pretty good job of providing like uh... a place we can watch all these messages nbc does not does not yet and and and also there s an argument with flows well but certainly with olympics is a difference between what flow does and what the olympics represent
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, it feels like the Olympics, which is what the charter says, should be as accessible as possible.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, you should really lower the barrier for entry for the Olympics.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, that s what the charter says, but those people in the IOC, these are the worst people ever.
4
SPEAKER_01
They re very bad.
4
SPEAKER_00
They re not bad, they just lost touch of the dream they once had when they joined the IOC.
4
SPEAKER_01
Well I would argue, I would argue all the way back that these are rich fat cats who, like I get so mad about the NCAA which finally now got rid of this term, bullshit term amateurism.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s like where there s some holy grail where you can t make money to be an amateur athlete, but the people who own the IOC or the people who own the institutions, college institutions are making boatloads of money off of you, that s crap.
4
SPEAKER_00
So you competed, like you said, at the 2008 Olympics.
4
SPEAKER_00
Did you believe you could win gold?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, absolutely.
4
SPEAKER_00
So your mental game was on point.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I was ready.
4
SPEAKER_00
So what went wrong?
4
SPEAKER_01
I just wasn t good enough.
4
SPEAKER_01
That was what I said.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I mean, so at that point in time, it was my first year of international competition.
4
SPEAKER_01
So when I came out in 2007, it was my first time making 74 kilograms, which is pretty small for me.
4
SPEAKER_01
I had some failures, but then quickly I turned that around and I was having success in America.
4
SPEAKER_01
I was beating everyone, I don t wanna say easy, but yeah, I was doing really well.
4
SPEAKER_01
I went international one time and there was one match I got cheated on.
4
SPEAKER_01
The Russians, they re cheaters.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think she was Ukraine, not Russia.
4
SPEAKER_01
I lost one real match where I actually lost.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it was to Dennis Sarkoosh, who had gone to win three world titles.
4
SPEAKER_01
But he was behind the tee of that year.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it was competitive.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I knew, OK, I m going with the best guys in the world.
4
SPEAKER_01
I beat a bunch of other guys who were good and had passed decent results.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I knew I was right there.
4
SPEAKER_01
Unfortunately, I ran into this guy, Ivan Fundora.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I had someone who s scouting reports for him, actually my high school coach, who now coaches for our academy, John Messenreich.
4
SPEAKER_01
And Fundoor was the worst stylistic matchup.
4
SPEAKER_01
I got him and I lost him second round.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I wasn t good enough.
4
SPEAKER_01
Had I decided to keep wrestling, I probably would have gotten better.
4
SPEAKER_01
But at that point, Diamonds wasn t in the cards.
4
SPEAKER_00
So in your division was, like you said, Satyev.
4
SPEAKER_00
Vice Satyev.
4
SPEAKER_00
That guy is special.
4
SPEAKER_01
He s very special.
4
SPEAKER_01
So that would be my other guy that you asked earlier who I enjoyed watching, and that was a guy I, again, it was kind of after the fact because it was hard to access footage, but he was a lot of fun to watch.
4
SPEAKER_00
What do you think made him great?
4
SPEAKER_00
A lot of people talk about him as potentially one of the greatest ever.
4
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, so he won six and three, six Worlds, three Olympics, nine total, which there s only one or two people above that.
4
SPEAKER_01
So again, it was hard to watch any live footage of him, but from what I ve seen, his feel is different.
4
SPEAKER_01
He was just ahead of his time and the feel and the touch he had for certain moves and different things, because obviously physically he s kind of unimposing.
4
SPEAKER_01
you know, taller and skinnier, which is, you know, it can work in wrestling, but it is by less represented.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, he was special.
4
SPEAKER_01
So good.
4
SPEAKER_00
Do you take any inspiration from, let s talk about Dagestan in general.
4
SPEAKER_00
What do you think makes those wrestlers great?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s fascinating.
4
SPEAKER_01
Have you read the book, The Talent Code?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s great.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that kind of talks about these talent hotspots all around the world.
4
SPEAKER_01
So now, obviously with our wrestling academies, we try to take some lessons from that and apply it.
4
SPEAKER_01
I got to assume they didn t cover Dagestan in that book specifically,
4
SPEAKER_01
but I gotta assume a lot of the same principles that are in that book apply to Dagestan and wrestling, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
They did South Korea and women s golf, they did Curacao and baseball, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
They picked a lot of these other places that were really elite.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think it was maybe Moscow and women s tennis also.
4
SPEAKER_01
So I think all these things that make any group great or organization is probably the same things that s happening there.
4
SPEAKER_00
Well, the hardship, I mean, is there something specific about wrestling that can create so many great champions?
4
SPEAKER_01
From that area, so obviously they all
5
SPEAKER_01
wrestling specifically is a big deal there.
5
SPEAKER_01
They do sambo also, obviously.
5
SPEAKER_01
So that s part of it is a lot of the kids are doing it.
5
SPEAKER_01
They obviously are rough tumble, tough life.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then I think that also that a lot of them, it is a way out, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
The elite level athletes in that part of the world from my understanding are really well compensated compared to what the average person makes and they re treated really well.
5
SPEAKER_01
So people see it as a way out.
5
SPEAKER_01
Whereas like, and then honestly,
5
SPEAKER_01
America is getting better.
5
SPEAKER_01
But in 2008, the reason I went to MMA was because I didn t want to be poor my whole life.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know what I m saying?
5
SPEAKER_01
It sucked.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s like, well, I don t want to make $20,000 for the next 48 years.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I m going to go do something else.
5
SPEAKER_01
If I could have made even, and I didn t need to be rich, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
If I could have made $100,000 or $70,000 wrestling, I probably would have kept wrestling.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I think it s those factors.
5
SPEAKER_01
And obviously now they have a really like,
5
SPEAKER_01
a bunch of really good people in one area.
5
SPEAKER_01
So there s probably, and it s been going on for a long time.
5
SPEAKER_01
So there s probably been a bunch of like adults and coaches that are coming back and helping that progress.
5
SPEAKER_01
So yeah, a lot of those things that happen.
5
SPEAKER_02
So I m definitely going to travel there to talk to him cause I can speak Russian.
5
SPEAKER_02
That makes, it makes it very, um,
5
SPEAKER_02
makes me uniquely qualified to uh my brother can speak a little bit of russian your brother can yeah okay like a little bit like uh squares and no no no like he would
5
SPEAKER_01
Oh, man, don t don t move me over.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I think he would be able to have a conversation with you, I think.
5
SPEAKER_01
OK, probably not like you.
5
SPEAKER_02
What s the what s the reason?
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, he I don t know why he got obsessed with languages.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so his college degree is actually what they call interdis, where you have three minors.
5
SPEAKER_01
We had a minor in Russian, a minor in Spanish and maybe Japanese.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m messing up.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s definitely, it s Russian and Spanish for sure.
5
SPEAKER_01
I don t know what the third one is.
5
SPEAKER_01
No, but yeah, Dagestan, it s really fascinating.
5
SPEAKER_02
But the emphasis on technique, the lighter drilling, like they don t really go super hard.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and I only spent a couple, so I was there, I was in Vladikavkaz in 2008.
5
SPEAKER_01
That was where the World Cup was.
5
SPEAKER_01
We had to train there for like two days afterwards.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I didn t get to dig deep into what was going on or anything, but yeah, I mean,
5
SPEAKER_01
I think sparring is very beneficial for wrestling.
5
SPEAKER_01
Sparring in MMA is we fight, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
Sparring in wrestling is, so I always just describe it to be really simple.
5
SPEAKER_01
If we re drilling, it s relatively 0% resistance.
5
SPEAKER_01
If we re going as hard as we can, that s 100%.
5
SPEAKER_01
There s all this gray area in the middle.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s sparring, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
you know, if you have a good relationship, like, you know, suppose a colleague of mine and my brother, we could just go and we know where each other s at.
5
SPEAKER_01
We don t even have to talk about it, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
But like in my wrestling club, I ll say, okay, hey, I want you guys to go 50% in this position, or I want the high crotch guy, I want him to shoot, and this is for him, so I want him to go 70, and the defensive guy, I want you to go 40.
5
SPEAKER_01
So you re not supposed to be trying to win here, you re gonna go a little lighter, I want you to give him some looks, you know?
5
SPEAKER_01
So I think it has really taken hold in America, I think it s really beneficial for success, and I think that s,
5
SPEAKER_01
I mean, America s doing better than we ve ever done.
5
SPEAKER_02
Well, that s 70 and 40.
5
SPEAKER_02
That s like an art form to find that right place, because like what the really good people I ve trained with, they go much closer to 100 percent speed wise or like, but without.
5
SPEAKER_02
like, forcing things the way you would when you re going.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s some weird combination of things that, like, if you truly earn a technique, then you re given that technique.
5
SPEAKER_02
But, like, if you don t, you don t.
5
SPEAKER_02
And then it becomes much less injury prone.
5
SPEAKER_02
It becomes somehow more fun, more dynamic.
5
SPEAKER_02
You don t get stuck in positions.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s just a lot of movement.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, the one thing, so you and John talked about different ways to learn and get better.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so I think John obviously innovated within the sport of jujitsu.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so for us, and maybe there s just a differentiator for us.
5
SPEAKER_02
I think about it like- Sorry to interrupt.
5
SPEAKER_02
You have this academy and you sent me this plan that you have a really well thought through plan for how to develop a good wrestler.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I think it s,
5
SPEAKER_01
So for me, there s four categories, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
There s the teaching, which is like, you don t know shit.
5
SPEAKER_01
You re coming in and I m showing you the move and you re literally going out there and you re trying.
5
SPEAKER_01
To me, that s not even drilling.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s like teaching, like you re trying to learn something.
5
SPEAKER_01
So obviously in someone s earlier periods, they re spending a lot of time in that phase because they literally don t even know how to move their bodies the right way.
5
SPEAKER_01
Once you learn the skill, then there s the drilling, because you absolutely have to get those reps to become really proficient in that movement, and then the sparring, and then the live, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
And so I think
5
SPEAKER_01
Obviously, by the time you get to the kind of end point, right, but further on, the time you spend teaching is so, I don t wanna say in, I m sorry, in the learning teaching phase is not insignificant, but it s so much smaller because to someone who s really good, who I ve coached for 10 years,
5
SPEAKER_01
I don t have to give this big, long, drawn-out explanation.
5
SPEAKER_01
I just have to say, hey, move your hand a little differently.
5
SPEAKER_01
Or just do this.
5
SPEAKER_01
We don t have to spend any time there.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I think that s something that consumes, for the younger kids, say, 5 through 12 or 13, we re consuming a massive amount of time there on that teaching, learning phase.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then as we get older, that time wanes a lot.
5
SPEAKER_02
But that makes total sense, right?
5
SPEAKER_02
It s funny because when you look at like jujitsu schools, they spend a lot of time in the teaching learning and then the live.
5
SPEAKER_02
I feel like there s not enough drilling.
5
SPEAKER_02
I like how you draw a distinction there.
5
SPEAKER_02
Because it feels like you re always starting from scratch.
5
SPEAKER_02
Like people have like very crappy short-term memory.
5
SPEAKER_02
Like they re not, like the way teaching is done is you show a technique from scratch and it seems disjoint.
5
SPEAKER_01
It is, for sure, especially if you have a class that s been with you for a while.
5
SPEAKER_01
You don t have to start from scratch.
5
SPEAKER_01
You can say, hey, let s focus on this one little thing here.
5
SPEAKER_01
Or after we do this, let s do that.
5
SPEAKER_01
And you kind of start putting it all together.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then with Jiu-Jitsu, the thing that I really
5
SPEAKER_01
struggle with was a couple things.
5
SPEAKER_01
It was, and this is not speaking for all the Jiu Jitsu gyms, my personal experience through the sport.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I actually found my, so when I unretired, I found someone really great that I loved and I really wish it was Mark Lehman.
5
SPEAKER_01
I don t know if you know him at all.
5
SPEAKER_01
I wish I would have found him earlier because he was just tremendous.
5
SPEAKER_01
But number one, there s no drilling.
5
SPEAKER_01
So it s like in wrestling, I can boil down to
5
SPEAKER_01
I can probably name you the best six moves, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
So we need, as younger people, single leg, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
Single leg is going to be the most proficient takedown.
5
SPEAKER_01
It always has been.
5
SPEAKER_01
I don t know, probably always will be unless the AI figures out something different.
5
SPEAKER_01
The robot.
5
SPEAKER_01
The robot figured out the difference.
5
SPEAKER_01
We re going to shoot a lot of single legs.
5
SPEAKER_01
Why?
5
SPEAKER_01
Because everyone s going to do that, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
We re going to shoot a lot of single legs.
5
SPEAKER_01
So just like, say, an arm bar or some type of sweep, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
Why can t we go get 50 reps there?
5
SPEAKER_01
I mean, by the time I ve been in your jiu-jitsu school for two years, I better know fucking arm bar.
5
SPEAKER_01
I better know it.
5
SPEAKER_01
So don t spend 10 minutes teaching me.
5
SPEAKER_01
Just tell me to go hit 50 reps.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then when I m hitting my reps, if there s something I m doing wrong, then just say, hey, Ben, move your leg a little bit that way.
5
SPEAKER_01
Or raise your hips up a little more.
5
SPEAKER_01
Correct as you re drilling.
5
SPEAKER_01
So you re getting all these reps at it.
5
SPEAKER_01
So you re becoming more proficient.
5
SPEAKER_01
And then the other thing I really struggled with was, to your point,
5
SPEAKER_01
Live so many times it s just this five minute go, go, go.
5
SPEAKER_01
And that s not the most efficient way to learn because when you have two people, especially when they re focused on winning, and you say go, they re gonna go to wherever they do best.
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, if I m trying to make you good at something, I don t want you doing what you do best all the time.
5
SPEAKER_01
I need you doing some other things, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
If you have a great single leg but you can t shoot to the other side of their body, we need to work on that.
5
SPEAKER_01
You need to start shooting the other side.
5
SPEAKER_02
There s some sense that it s not like you should be told what to work on, but you should be told to work on the thing that you want to work on.
5
SPEAKER_02
I don t know, maybe you can comment on this, but everybody develops a different game as you get better and better.
5
SPEAKER_02
There s a set of things you need to be working on.
5
SPEAKER_02
So I actually have, like when I, especially when I m like training very seriously, I ll have a specific technique that I have in mind.
5
SPEAKER_02
And I have a sheet of paper on the side where I literally, my head keep counting off how many times I put myself in that position and pulled off the technique.
5
SPEAKER_02
And that s all I care about in like training.
5
SPEAKER_02
So I ll just, whatever it is, if it s a guillotine, it s a guillotine, arm drag, arm drag.
5
SPEAKER_02
But I wanna make sure I don t,
5
SPEAKER_02
I love numbers.
5
SPEAKER_02
So I ll say like, I ll make sure I get 50 arm drags.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I m not getting off the mat until I do.
5
SPEAKER_01
And that, you know, if it is thrilling or live contest.
5
SPEAKER_02
So in this in the thing I m describing right now is the live contest.
5
SPEAKER_01
I got it.
5
SPEAKER_02
But drilling, obviously, drilling, I can t find a drilling part, like it s so hard to find drilling partners, even.
5
SPEAKER_02
So boring.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s annoying to me that this is boring.
5
SPEAKER_02
And there s nothing more annoying to me than the look of boredom on another person s face when we re drilling.
5
SPEAKER_01
Do you really think drilling s that beneficial to you?
5
SPEAKER_01
Because you said it s a job.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yes, yes, and he thinks I m an idiot, but yes.
5
SPEAKER_01
Why?
5
SPEAKER_02
Why am I an idiot, or why is this drilling beneficial?
5
SPEAKER_00
Well, let s go with two direct positions.
5
SPEAKER_00
Why is it so beneficial?
5
SPEAKER_02
I think, for me, there s a meditative aspect to it where the more you drill, the more you start noticing the details, the minute details.
5
SPEAKER_01
Let me push back a little bit here.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m not going to push back all the way because every time if I was wrestling, I won t high-crouch and like whatever, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
But even so say like at a high level when I m really wrestling 10 years ago, even during that drill portion, if we talk about the resistance of our opponent from zero to 100,
5
SPEAKER_01
it s very likely that my partner, at that point, because there s people I m really comfortable with, they re probably at least going 20 or 30, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
They re probably giving me a certain look with the sprawl, or I gotta get through their hands.
5
SPEAKER_01
If I don t set it up right, they might put their arm down, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
So it s like, we are drilling, because we re wrestling at a really low resistance level, but there s a little bit of sparring.
5
SPEAKER_01
The two, you know?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so that s not really drilling.
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, I think it s drilling.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think literally, you re shooting, and I m just, boom, I m like, show me your dummy, boom.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, boom type of thing.
5
SPEAKER_02
No, it s very hard to be a dummy that doesn t do 20% you re gonna do 20% Yeah, that s so yes, but that s like Spartan a little bit that
5
SPEAKER_02
No, but they re not really resisting.
5
SPEAKER_02
They re just giving you the right frame.
5
SPEAKER_02
They re giving you the right movement.
5
SPEAKER_02
They re being an intelligent dummy, essentially.
5
SPEAKER_02
But also, the really important component of this is you pick the techniques for which it s beneficial.
5
SPEAKER_02
If the technique has dynamic elements to it, you don t want to be doing that.
5
SPEAKER_02
I m saying there s certain moves
5
SPEAKER_02
And I like those moves and I select the game based on those moves.
5
SPEAKER_01
So are you drilling to get better or are you drilling just to work out?
5
SPEAKER_02
No, to get better.
5
SPEAKER_02
That s what I m trying to tell you.
5
SPEAKER_02
I believe you can become exceptionally good very fast by drilling.
5
SPEAKER_00
But how?
5
SPEAKER_02
First of all, let me ask you an empirical question.
5
SPEAKER_02
Have you actually drilled 10,000 times a particular move?
5
SPEAKER_01
Millions.
5
SPEAKER_01
Hundreds of thousands likely.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think you re just saying numbers.
5
SPEAKER_01
I don t think you know what a hundred thousand.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s way more than 10,000.
5
SPEAKER_01
I don t think you know what a hundred thousand feels like.
5
SPEAKER_01
Dude, there was a 10 year period where I wrestled every single day.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s 3,000 days.
5
SPEAKER_01
So you re telling me 10,000, that s only three of them a day.
5
SPEAKER_01
I did way more than that.
5
SPEAKER_01
Probably 30 of them a day, that s 100,000.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, hundreds of thousands.
5
SPEAKER_01
I doubt you did 30 a day.
5
SPEAKER_01
I did, for sure, 100%, there s no doubt.
5
SPEAKER_01
Because some days I might do 100, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
So 30 is not very many.
5
SPEAKER_01
Especially if we count all reps, if we re counting drilling and live.
5
SPEAKER_01
So like our coach, college coach would make us just drill a lot and I always hated it.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I would rebel and just kind of give a little spar.
5
SPEAKER_01
You shoot a high crotch, we ll start.
5
SPEAKER_01
Coach wants to drill a high crotch.
5
SPEAKER_01
Okay, we ll start.
5
SPEAKER_01
You shoot the high crotch, that s great.
5
SPEAKER_01
Then I m going to sit in the corner or I m going to give you my hip or I m going to, you know, I m going to try something.
5
SPEAKER_01
So then you have to react.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I would argue that
5
SPEAKER_01
all skill level past the beginner stuff is some necessity of that, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
I m gonna do this, then what are you gonna do?
5
SPEAKER_01
It s back and forth.
5
SPEAKER_01
I shoot a single leg, what are you gonna do?
5
SPEAKER_01
I shoot a high crotch, what are you gonna do?
5
SPEAKER_01
And you have to start unconsciously programming these things in your head because if you consciously think about it, it s gonna be too slow to actually hit it in a match, right?
5
SPEAKER_02
But the drilling is the unconscious programming.
5
SPEAKER_01
But the simple movement, the first simple movement, the first simple movement, that single leg or the high crotch or arm drag, whatever,
5
SPEAKER_01
I feel like the amount you re gonna get better at it is so minuscule compared to the amount you re gonna gain at doing other things around it.
5
SPEAKER_01
Do you see what I mean?
5
SPEAKER_02
No, but that s the key word, you feel.
5
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s your opinion.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think if we did a study on it, that I would be proven correct.
5
SPEAKER_02
No, perhaps.
5
SPEAKER_02
So first of all, your brain, as an exceptionally creative combat athlete, it s clear that you don t like the boredom of drilling.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s obvious that you re such a creative energy that you re just not going to be somebody who s going to enjoy that.
5
SPEAKER_02
So enjoyment is probably,
5
SPEAKER_02
having an active mind is really important.
5
SPEAKER_02
So the question is, do you have the kind of makeup that has an active mind during a drilling on a dummy?
5
SPEAKER_02
And I have that mind.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like I can- But you really think, okay, so if you re, let s pick a technique.
5
SPEAKER_01
What technique do you wanna drill a lot?
5
SPEAKER_02
Are we doing jiu-jitsu or wrestling?
5
SPEAKER_01
Whatever you want.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s hard to describe with words, but certain guard passes.
5
SPEAKER_02
Let me think, just guard pass.
5
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
5
SPEAKER_01
So you have a guard pass and you get it to be as a nine and a half out of 10, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
Just from a, from a technical standpoint, don t you think you need some resistance to feel?
5
SPEAKER_01
Cause essentially all, all benefit after that is going to be, what are they going to try to do to me?
5
SPEAKER_01
If they shipped it that way, do I need to, do I need to sink here or move there?
5
SPEAKER_01
So it s like, I, so I, I,
5
SPEAKER_01
I actually think we re agreeing, but maybe terminology-wise.
5
SPEAKER_02
Well, the split is the important thing, like how much of each.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I think it is spar.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think it s a very light touch spar is what you re talking about, which is, in my opinion, really isn t drilling.
5
SPEAKER_01
And it s because drilling past the basic proficiency, I don t think brings much value.
5
SPEAKER_02
No, but that s what I m trying to tell you is I think it does.
5
SPEAKER_02
I think,
5
SPEAKER_02
if you re doing that same movement, I think you begin to learn more over time.
5
SPEAKER_02
Like you re saying once you get the basic proficiency, then there s diminishing returns.
5
SPEAKER_02
I don t think so.
5
SPEAKER_02
I don t think so.
5
SPEAKER_02
I think everything has diminishing returns when you re learning a technique.
5
SPEAKER_01
But with something as complex as wrestling or grappling,
5
SPEAKER_01
If you can have way more gains over here, why focus on going from a 9.7 to a 9.8?
5
SPEAKER_01
If this other area, if you re spending so much time here that there s other areas left unexplored and you can make gigantic gains over there.
5
SPEAKER_02
No, but you re gonna lose.
5
SPEAKER_02
I think a lot depends on your style.
5
SPEAKER_02
I think a lot is determined by how good you are at one thing.
5
SPEAKER_02
And so if you want to become a master of a particular thing and then make your whole game where it s all pulled into that system, then I don t know what is too small of a number.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, small.
5
SPEAKER_02
I feel like you can t be easily this like.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, you want you want to funnel you want to create funnels funnels funnels right where everything goes into a few positions and then it s all feel 100 percent.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_02
But I feel you can get like.
5
SPEAKER_02
drilling on a dummy 80% of the time and 20% of the time live rolling with people worse than you, like a little bit worse than you, or a lot worse than you.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so I think so I think I definitely think so my my build up would be
5
SPEAKER_01
Teach, so we re talking about complex technique, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
So by the time we re talking about, we ll say a late high school kid who s pretty proficient, he s probably done the drilling part.
5
SPEAKER_01
So then now it s like, okay, if I wanna get something new to you, I ll probably tell you, you ll probably be able to do the basic premise within five to 10 minutes if they re good, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
do this, okay, they do it.
5
SPEAKER_01
Then it s like, okay, so now from here, what are we gonna do?
5
SPEAKER_01
We re gonna go light sparring, so I know you have success, because I need you to complete the task in order to get better at it.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s something a lot of people in wrestling mess up, is they just wanna go to the toughest person.
5
SPEAKER_01
But if you go to the toughest person, you re not gonna actually execute on any skills.
5
SPEAKER_01
You re gonna get a workout, but you re not, and I need you to execute, because I need you to get good at this.
5
SPEAKER_01
In order to get good at it, you have to get all the way through the technique.
5
SPEAKER_02
Why do you need them to complete, just so they gain confidence in the technique, or they go through all the steps of the technique?
5
SPEAKER_01
They have to feel all the way through.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like if I said,
5
SPEAKER_01
Learn a high crotch when you re drilling with stop halfway every time, but you re not actually gonna be able to do it because you re gonna stop, you re not gonna be able to feel.
5
SPEAKER_01
So, you know, try it on someone, spar lightly, get it.
5
SPEAKER_01
Do it on someone who s not as good, you get it.
5
SPEAKER_01
Then kind of
6
SPEAKER_01
work your way up the ladder so you can get it on someone your own skill level or maybe better than you, right, in a live competition.
6
SPEAKER_01
So it s like, I don t know, I feel like that basic drilling, like, so a kid like Keegan, who I ve brought up a few times, like, I feel like if there s something new, I could literally tell him, like, this is what I want you to do, and he s such a great feeler, like, he could go drill it proficiently within probably a minute or two.
6
SPEAKER_01
but then to hit it on someone high level, that s gonna take quite a while longer.
6
SPEAKER_00
And that s a mix of drilling and sparring on people a little bit worse than you.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and then equal and then better.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, okay.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, because there s this, with grappling, there s such like a feel component to the pressure, the movement, all these things, and there s still, like I said, there s so many things you can throw at someone out of one position, not just moves, but moves at different levels of force or whatever.
6
SPEAKER_00
Are you and these kids developing like a big picture strategy of like what are the main setups and takedowns and just like a whole system?
6
SPEAKER_01
So I kind of sent you our technique book, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
And how we kind of go at it, approach it.
6
SPEAKER_01
So I think in wrestling you re going to need
6
SPEAKER_01
you re gonna need a handful of things just off the word go, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
You re going to, so I think on our feet, I need to be able to take this side of the body, I need to be able to take that side of the body, I need to be able to bring you underneath me, I need to be able to go around you, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
Now we can accomplish those different ways, but we should have all of those weapons, if we re gonna be really good some way, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
So if I neglect one of those, so if I neglect the ability to say pull you down, right, front lock you,
6
SPEAKER_01
Now, if I have a good shot and you re smart, you re just gonna lower your stance.
6
SPEAKER_01
So my shot is not gonna be as successful and I have the inability to pull you down, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
So I kinda need all of those so I can, as they get better, I can point those things out.
6
SPEAKER_01
On bottom, my folks out bottom, there s certain things like you have to be good at leg right defense.
6
SPEAKER_01
Right, you have to I mean at a high level or you re just gonna you re gonna when you get it in you re just getting stuck there not gonna be able to escape But besides that yeah, there s a multitude of things you can choose from and I m gonna depending on your body style And what you re good and bad at I m gonna try to develop something a little different I might give you hey you do the quad pod you d be better as a knee slide whatever Yeah top kind of same thing
6
SPEAKER_00
I have to ask you about Khabib.
6
SPEAKER_00
So I remember a while ago, Rogan said that that s the perfect fight for Khabib.
6
SPEAKER_00
You are.
6
SPEAKER_00
So let me ask two questions.
6
SPEAKER_00
The first, do you think you can beat him in an MMA match when you re at your peak?
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I don t like, yeah, I mean, it s one of those people where people will get really mad at me if I say yes, but yeah, I mean, I do.
6
SPEAKER_00
But how would you do it?
6
SPEAKER_00
How would you solve that puzzle?
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
I mean, we would grapple and I think I would be better than him, but I, you know, I, I feel weird saying is people like, yeah, right.
6
SPEAKER_01
You re full of shit, you know?
6
SPEAKER_01
And, but that s no, no one out grappled them.
6
SPEAKER_01
Right.
6
SPEAKER_01
I mean, nobody did, and maybe I m wrong in this, but I, if we look at the best possible candidates, I m definitely one of them.
6
SPEAKER_01
And then obviously I have a small size advantage too.
6
SPEAKER_00
So in a wrestling match, so we can just reduce that MMA match to a wrestling match, what do you think is the right strategy on him?
6
SPEAKER_00
Do you understand his style, his wrestling style, the pressure he applies?
6
SPEAKER_00
Do you understand how the hell he makes that happen?
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I mean, he never, unfortunately, fought any real, who I would say, really, really high-level wrestlers.
6
SPEAKER_01
I was actually really disappointed how bad Justin Gaethje s wrestling was, because Justin Gaethje had some solid success, but his wrestling was really bad in that fight.
6
SPEAKER_00
Gaethje had success at NCAA?
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think he was seventh place, maybe, or somewhere.
6
SPEAKER_01
He was definitely All-American.
6
SPEAKER_01
He was lower, though.
6
SPEAKER_01
So yeah, I would like to see how he dealt with someone who was like, who I think, oh man, this guy s a really high level wrestler.
6
SPEAKER_01
Cause you know, we saw, and this is early in his career, but you know, Gleason Tebow did give him some issues earlier in his career.
6
SPEAKER_01
So I would like to see him in that situation and see how he does.
6
SPEAKER_01
I would love to like, you know, I just love wrestling and grappling.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like, yeah, I d love this.
6
SPEAKER_01
Someone said, hey Ben, you know, Khabib wants to roll with you.
6
SPEAKER_01
Okay, I m there tomorrow.
6
SPEAKER_01
It sounds like a blast.
6
SPEAKER_01
Let s go.
6
SPEAKER_00
He s probably competitive as hell.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
You re still competitive?
6
SPEAKER_01
I know when to be and when not to be.
6
SPEAKER_01
Say if I m going with my high school kids, I m not gonna be competitive, because then I m just being a dick.
6
SPEAKER_00
How would you take them down?
6
SPEAKER_00
What?
6
SPEAKER_00
What were we talking about?
6
SPEAKER_01
Real wrestling?
6
SPEAKER_01
Wrestling?
6
SPEAKER_00
Wrestling, wrestling.
6
SPEAKER_01
I would probably try to attack single legs and stuff.
6
SPEAKER_00
Single legs?
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
6
SPEAKER_01
Honestly, I don t have the slightest clue.
6
SPEAKER_01
I d have to feel, I d feel him out.
6
SPEAKER_01
But single leg s my best take down.
6
SPEAKER_00
People talk about his wrestling being really good.
6
SPEAKER_00
The people that trained with him.
6
SPEAKER_01
So I grilled someone, I will not say who, on the Ed Ruth thing, because Ed Ruth is very elite and focused on wrestling.
6
SPEAKER_01
He never became that great at fighting, unfortunately.
6
SPEAKER_01
Wait, Ed Ruth wrestled Khabib?
6
SPEAKER_01
They were on the same team for a while, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
And there was rumors that Khabib beat him up.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I said, I sure can t believe that.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I ve heard that that was, if they were just straight wrestling, Ed would get slightly the better of it.
6
SPEAKER_00
Ed was just like one of the greats.
6
SPEAKER_00
He s great.
6
SPEAKER_01
He s really good.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
So that was what I heard.
6
SPEAKER_01
But in an MMA setting, because of all the tools that Khabib would get him.
6
SPEAKER_00
I don t know.
6
SPEAKER_00
But I agree, I agree with Rogan on this one.
6
SPEAKER_00
That would have been good to see.
6
SPEAKER_01
So yeah, if Khabib wants to work out, I d love it.
6
SPEAKER_01
I love wrestling and grappling.
6
SPEAKER_01
I don t do much Jiu-Jitsu because I just don t have time for it anymore.
6
SPEAKER_01
I m at the Wrestling Academy like every single day.
6
SPEAKER_01
But I love Jiu-Jitsu while I did it.
6
SPEAKER_01
And if I didn t have Wrestling Academy, I probably would still be doing Jiu-Jitsu.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you do well in Jiu-Jitsu as well.
6
SPEAKER_00
But let me ask you a ridiculous question.
6
SPEAKER_00
Who s the greatest of all time, freestyle or folk style?
6
SPEAKER_01
Oh, wrestling.
6
SPEAKER_00
Wrestling.
6
SPEAKER_01
Well, I will say my knowledge past like the year 2000 is really not that great.
6
SPEAKER_00
In which direction?
6
SPEAKER_00
Sorry.
6
SPEAKER_00
After 2000?
6
SPEAKER_01
No, before.
6
SPEAKER_01
Because you can t find any film or anything, you know?
6
SPEAKER_01
And so you hear of all these.
6
SPEAKER_00
So you need evidence?
6
SPEAKER_00
You need direct evidence?
6
SPEAKER_01
I want to be able to watch them and see them and feel the times and feel their opponents and, you know, all those things to really like, I hate giving bad answers, you know?
6
SPEAKER_01
So I would.
6
SPEAKER_01
There s just not enough footage of any of those people.
6
SPEAKER_01
We go back to someone like Alexander Medved.
6
SPEAKER_01
You can t find footage.
6
SPEAKER_01
You can t find anything on him.
6
SPEAKER_01
Who was he wrestling?
6
SPEAKER_01
I m not sure.
6
SPEAKER_01
Post-2000, I think, and obviously just freestyle.
6
SPEAKER_00
uh... americans well as the city of has the prior the best are opposed to tell any said july of uh... if he has a russian tank he s a guy who s yeah so who s who s better snyder or so do i have to say so i just want the olympic nightish and this is how that works but that it s pretty close rate
6
SPEAKER_00
Not really.
6
SPEAKER_00
Not that match, but in general, the matchup.
6
SPEAKER_01
So, well, Kyle won the first one in 17, said July of pinned him the following year, but then Kyle lost and took bronze in 19 and then just lost.
6
SPEAKER_01
I don t want to say fairly decisively, but it was 6-3 and it was a late takedown.
6
SPEAKER_01
He kind of gave it up and maybe if it was really competitive, maybe he wouldn t have.
6
SPEAKER_01
They re going to wrestle again in like two weeks here.
6
SPEAKER_01
So that, you know, yeah, you, I mean, you have to say Sedge alive at this point.
6
SPEAKER_01
There s nothing else to say unless Kyle proves us otherwise.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, not enough people talk about Sedge Alive.
6
SPEAKER_00
Okay, well, you think that guy should go to MMA?
6
SPEAKER_00
You think Kyle should go to MMA?
6
SPEAKER_01
Some of these guys... Yeah, they re making enough money in wrestling where they don t really feel the need to.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s terrifying though, as a heavyweight, Sedge Alive would probably... It s like Khabib, but heavyweight.
6
SPEAKER_01
Well, I don t know if you remember, do you remember Bilal Makhov?
6
SPEAKER_01
So Bilal Mokoff actually was the Russian representative in both styles in 2016, grappling and freestyle.
6
SPEAKER_01
And he was, to my knowledge, the only person the UFC s ever signed that was zero, in modern era, signed that was zero and zero.
6
SPEAKER_01
And then he actually never ended up fighting.
6
SPEAKER_01
But weird, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
So yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
No motivation.
6
SPEAKER_01
I don t know what the story is.
6
SPEAKER_01
Sometimes out of Russia, I mean, maybe you have better sources than I do, sometimes it feels like dudes just disappear.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like they re a world champ or an Olympic champ, and then all of a sudden you re like, wait.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, where do you go you talk shit about Russia earlier in the conversation?
6
SPEAKER_00
So what I said, I forgot but I think steroids I think somebody s gonna show up to your door.
6
SPEAKER_01
I m worried I honestly I ve said enough bad things where I would be kind of looking over my shoulder if I were I for one loved the Russians.
6
SPEAKER_01
What about Icarus?
6
SPEAKER_00
How does that make you feel?
6
SPEAKER_00
What about it?
6
SPEAKER_00
It s fake news.
6
SPEAKER_01
Oh, really?
6
SPEAKER_00
I m just kidding.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s propaganda?
6
SPEAKER_00
Maybe it is.
6
SPEAKER_00
I don t know.
6
SPEAKER_00
Maybe it is.
6
SPEAKER_00
I don t know what you think anymore.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
You know, it s troublesome, man.
6
SPEAKER_00
I hate cheating in all of its forms.
6
SPEAKER_00
Any other, like, recaps from the Olympics of 2020, Tokyo, that stood out to you?
6
SPEAKER_00
Gable Stephenson, like, anything like that?
6
SPEAKER_01
It was great, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
No, I think America s coming to the point where we re gonna compete with Russia every single year in wrestling, which, obviously, you know,
6
SPEAKER_01
long, long time ago, many, many years.
6
SPEAKER_01
We were great.
6
SPEAKER_01
And then kind of after that Soviet Union period, I think there was a lot of poverty in that area.
6
SPEAKER_01
And that kind of led the wrestling team going down a little bit.
6
SPEAKER_01
And then obviously, a lot of those regions, where they found oil and gas in the Caspian Sea, I believe.
6
SPEAKER_01
And they ve been really kind of on the upswing for the last 20 years.
6
SPEAKER_01
And now America, really since 2012, has been on the upswing in wrestling.
6
SPEAKER_01
And we re kind of really
6
SPEAKER_01
competing with them and they re not sending a couple of the best guys to Oslo.
6
SPEAKER_01
So for those who don t know, the Olympics got put back in the air.
6
SPEAKER_01
So they are hosting the 2021 World Championships, despite the fact that we just had the Olympics two months ago.
6
SPEAKER_01
So it s happening next week in Oslo, Norway.
6
SPEAKER_01
So like Russia s not sending their number one at 57 and their number one at 65.
6
SPEAKER_01
So it s like,
6
SPEAKER_01
America s probably going to win, I think.
6
SPEAKER_01
I don t want to guarantee anything, but there s a really good chance of it.
6
SPEAKER_01
Dave Taylor, all those guys competing.
6
SPEAKER_01
America gave any of the Olympians that medaled the opportunity to not even have to wrestle off.
6
SPEAKER_01
They just got to keep the spot since it was two months later, if they medaled.
6
SPEAKER_01
So the only one who s not is Gable.
6
SPEAKER_01
Gable s moving on.
6
SPEAKER_01
We have a pretty good guy behind him, Nick Wazdowski, who s a world medalist.
6
SPEAKER_01
But then Burrell s filled in the 79 spot.
6
SPEAKER_01
Jayden Coxfield in the 92 spot, who s a world champion also.
6
SPEAKER_01
So we have a- It s a hell of a team.
6
SPEAKER_01
Pretty good squad, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Pretty good squad.
6
SPEAKER_00
Pretty happy.
6
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
6
SPEAKER_00
So given your run in Bellator in one championship, that was like one of the most dominant runs in MMA.
6
SPEAKER_00
What would you say was like key to your dominance in that long undefeated streak?
6
SPEAKER_01
Huh.
6
SPEAKER_01
Probably consistency would be one.
6
SPEAKER_01
The fact that
6
SPEAKER_01
I just, I lived and trained the same way no matter where my life was.
6
SPEAKER_01
Whereas a lot of fighters, once they start making money for the first time, they have all these obligations and they travel and they really enjoy making money.
6
SPEAKER_01
And that s kind of why some of them fall off.
6
SPEAKER_00
So you had like the same process, like the same camp.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I stayed at my house.
6
SPEAKER_01
I didn t vacation.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, everything.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so that was a big part of it.
6
SPEAKER_01
Obviously, the style thing is like no one could.
6
SPEAKER_01
There was only a few people who could stop my style.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I think I continue to get better as a mixed martial artist.
6
SPEAKER_01
I wasn t as innovative in mixed martial arts, but there was a handful of things that I innovated, specifically in the top position, where I spent a lot of time, where it was just like, there was just, once I got on top of you, it was like in a spider web, and there was just kind of no way out, you know?
6
SPEAKER_01
You never felt the certain things I was doing, and so people just, they gave up eventually.
6
SPEAKER_00
How s the level of wrestling in MMA, would you say?
6
SPEAKER_00
I saw somewhere like champions, the most popular martial art for current UFC champions are all wrestling.
6
SPEAKER_01
So we just lost a bunch of the belts.
6
SPEAKER_01
Wrestling as a sport, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
But yeah, one point we had, I think it was eight of nine maybe or something to that effect.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I think it s not just wrestling, not just the actual martial art of wrestling that contributes to
6
SPEAKER_01
our success in mixed martial arts, but other things, like the way we re systemized.
6
SPEAKER_01
So most kids who reach high level success have went through the high school program and the college program, and they know how to show up on time, and they know how to work hard.
6
SPEAKER_01
So when they go to ATT or AKA or wherever, they know how to show up on time and they know how to work hard, and that s gonna get you a really long way.
6
SPEAKER_01
Just those two things, right?
6
SPEAKER_00
Not even the techniques, it s just the discipline.
6
SPEAKER_01
The techniques, those things.
6
SPEAKER_01
Then I think you throw on top of that the fact that most of us have competed
6
SPEAKER_01
1,500 to 2,000 times, probably by the time we get to 20-something, that s a huge advantage, too.
6
SPEAKER_01
Most of these other people from other disciplines maybe have competed 100, if that, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
So we have this competitive process down really, really, really, really well.
6
SPEAKER_01
Plus the weight cut.
6
SPEAKER_01
The weight cut.
6
SPEAKER_01
There s all these things that factor into it.
6
SPEAKER_01
I think the fact that we re really open-minded, I think if you would
6
SPEAKER_01
I don t pick on Jiu-Jitsu again, but like how many Jiu-Jitsu guys have became highly proficient in wrestling versus how many wrestling guys have became highly proficient in Jiu-Jitsu?
6
SPEAKER_01
I think that number swings one way and not that much the other way, you know?
6
SPEAKER_01
So we re open to adapting and learning.
6
SPEAKER_01
And for some reason, like Jiu-Jitsu people, how many of them have got high level wrestling or even mediocre wrestling?
6
SPEAKER_01
The number s really small.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like they refuse to, it s really frustrating.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like, why won t they do this is obviously part of it.
6
SPEAKER_01
You know, if like, I don t pick on specific guys, but there s certain guys in the history of MMA where you re like, listen, man, I mean, Damian Maia, who who s my last fight is a great example.
6
SPEAKER_01
Somebody actually did get proficient wrestling, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
But there s some of these jiu-jitsu guys that s like, if you just got on top, you would submit him.
6
SPEAKER_01
Why can t you learn a freaking takedown?
6
SPEAKER_01
Like, holy moly.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like, just learn how to take someone down.
6
SPEAKER_01
Once you get them down, they will not get up, and you win the fight.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like, it s so easy, you know?
6
SPEAKER_01
But they refuse.
6
SPEAKER_00
How complicated is that journey?
6
SPEAKER_00
So like, Don, I heard that you mentioned Craig Jones.
6
SPEAKER_00
They re big on wrestling as part of jiu-jitsu now.
6
SPEAKER_00
Like, wrestling, not just on the feet, but wrestling from the bottom coming up and all that kind of.
6
SPEAKER_00
So how difficult is that whole skill set, would you say, for a jiu-jitsu person to learn?
6
SPEAKER_01
Not that hard, if they really put their mind to it.
6
SPEAKER_01
When you grapple, and this is any grappling art, there s a certain part of it that you kind of get, and it might not be the exact same thing, but you understand how your body moves and how to feel certain pressures, and you can adapt yourself pretty quickly, you know?
6
SPEAKER_01
So I don t think, I think there s just a certain level of stubbornness where they didn t wanna, certain people didn t wanna do it for whatever reason.
6
SPEAKER_01
I think a lot of times in MMA, it s the I m so macho, I can stand and bang thing,
6
SPEAKER_01
you know, show how macho they are.
6
SPEAKER_01
But yeah, that was a frustrating one that they, there s a lot of wrestlers who became highly proficient in jujitsu and really adapted and it doesn t go the other way.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I guess the other thing there too is they can both steal from each other, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
As any martial art can steal from another,
6
SPEAKER_01
And I feel like Jiu Jitsu didn t do enough stealing from wrestling.
6
SPEAKER_01
They should have looked at all the wrestling possible and said, well, why don t we steal that and that and that?
6
SPEAKER_01
And like, hey, let s take that over.
6
SPEAKER_01
And maybe we d make a little tweak because it s different, but there s something we can definitely use there.
6
SPEAKER_01
So in wrestling,
6
SPEAKER_01
For example, you know there s a one-armed guillotine in jiu-jitsu, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so there s a move called, well, it s got a hundred names, it s like the oldest move in wrestling, because it s what they did to cows where they go around the chin and they throw them on their back.
6
SPEAKER_01
I don t know what you call that one.
6
SPEAKER_00
I don t know.
6
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
6
SPEAKER_00
Sorry, did you just ask me what I call that one?
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Where you take a cow and grab it by the neck and throw it to the set.
6
SPEAKER_01
Okay, we call you putting it under yeah, so you grab their chin and then you go under their arm and then throw them Okay, gotcha.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so we call that the honey badger, but it s got honey badger different names wherever you go It s got different names
6
SPEAKER_01
So I would always, I would say, like, pre-jiu-jitsu, I was average at it.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like, I could do it, but against good people, you d never get it for, because, well, I ll tell you what, because they would get the back of their head up, and they were too strong where you couldn t collapse them by going over their neck, right, because the forces weren t right.
6
SPEAKER_01
So then in jiu-jitsu, you learn the one-armed gi team, where you grab their chin, and this is more of running along the side of their head, and then you go here, and you choke them, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
much more efficient way to move their head, because the fulcrum is way down here, and their head can move into that, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
So once I learned that in jiu-jitsu, I m like, wait, I can do this in wrestling.
6
SPEAKER_01
So now once I learned how to grab their chin the right way, and I do the honey badger, no one ever gets out.
6
SPEAKER_01
I just had to steal that jiu-jitsu, put it in wrestling, and boom, there we go.
6
SPEAKER_00
But very few people steal any direction.
6
SPEAKER_00
That takes creativity.
6
SPEAKER_00
Really?
6
SPEAKER_00
And open-mindedness.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s so easy, because it s already done.
6
SPEAKER_01
You just gotta steal it.
6
SPEAKER_00
I mean same with judo if you re a gi jujitsu person there s so much stuff in judo that that s ripe for the stealing because judo is much more emphasizes explosive moves on the transition which is something jujitsu
7
SPEAKER_02
it does not do, because you have some- You mean from the takedown to- From the takedown, but also just in general, just in the transition, the concept of transition, the, like, jiu-jitsu is very much about, like, we re in this position, then we re in this position, then we re in this position.
7
SPEAKER_02
The judo is much more in when there s chaos of any kind.
7
SPEAKER_02
That s when you need to strike.
7
SPEAKER_02
And to learn that, I mean, that s why people like Travis Stevens and Judoka, when they go to jiu-jitsu, they can dominate.
7
SPEAKER_02
But jiu-jitsu people should feel that.
7
SPEAKER_01
They re too stubborn.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, but so is everyone.
7
SPEAKER_02
Wrestlers are stubborn too.
7
SPEAKER_01
No way.
7
SPEAKER_01
There would never be any stubborn wrestlers.
7
SPEAKER_02
Well, I mean, I was surprised, you know, all these coaches, John Smith, Dan Gable,
7
SPEAKER_02
they don t really have interest in MMA or Jiu-Jitsu and so on.
7
SPEAKER_02
But you would think somebody like a John Smith would put on a white belt and roll around.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think he s just too focused on what he s a coach and what he s doing.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think if you take him when he s younger, he would have a lot of fun.
7
SPEAKER_01
We actually have a really good wrestler making his MMA debut tomorrow.
7
SPEAKER_01
Bo Nickel, I m sure you ve heard of him.
7
SPEAKER_01
Very high level, I think he s gonna have a lot of success.
7
SPEAKER_02
I mean, some people might say that, like, jujitsu makes you a little comfortable being in your back.
7
SPEAKER_02
And for a wrestler, that could be, like, really bad.
7
SPEAKER_00
I hate that take.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_02
But that s the Dan Gable take.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s so stupid.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s so stupid.
7
SPEAKER_00
For God s sakes, we know the fucking rules.
7
SPEAKER_00
Wrestling, you don t go to your back.
7
SPEAKER_00
In jujitsu, you can.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s like, whatever.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_00
But like, so jujitsu, for example,
7
SPEAKER_01
So I coached, when I was at Rufus, I coached the wrestling for a long, I don t know, three, four, five years.
7
SPEAKER_01
So taking a jiu-jitsu guy and teaching them a wrestling technique where you needed to use your feet.
7
SPEAKER_01
To teach a jiu-jitsu guy is so easy, so simple, because they already understand the concept, butterfly guard, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
To take a wrestler,
7
SPEAKER_01
who s never done any of it, and teach him how to use his feet.
7
SPEAKER_01
Oh my God, it s such a beast, it s so hard.
7
SPEAKER_01
You know, because that s not a weapon they re thinking about using.
7
SPEAKER_01
So it s like, we understand the rules.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s like freestyle folks are wrestling.
7
SPEAKER_01
Freestyle, if I m on the mat, I can lock my hands.
7
SPEAKER_01
You don t see people locking their hands all the time in folk style just because they did freestyle.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s like, they get it.
7
SPEAKER_01
There s a rule, they understand it.
7
SPEAKER_01
So the notion that somebody would come from on your back.
7
SPEAKER_02
But pinning, that s like a,
7
SPEAKER_02
It has a special meaning.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I actually think so jiu-jitsu you you don t actually want to be right flat flat very often right you own be
7
SPEAKER_02
I always wondered this because I did a couple of cat wrestling tournaments and I would put myself in butterfly guard and I wasn t going against good people, which is why I was doing all these things.
7
SPEAKER_02
But I wondered if you could create a system of wrestling where you re butterfly guard.
7
SPEAKER_01
So I think that there s there s a few places where I use it.
7
SPEAKER_01
But so specifically the elevator series, which my mainstay is up bottom, it is it s not butterfly guard.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s a butterfly guard like grip with your foot.
7
SPEAKER_01
So I boom, I go here, I catch your leg with my foot, boom and I elevate you over.
7
SPEAKER_01
Right.
7
SPEAKER_01
And then also sometimes like
7
SPEAKER_01
I think Keegan does this too from Washington, but double leg sometimes if I m accepting.
7
SPEAKER_01
So freestyle is you re going to give a point to folks out except that you ve already got me.
7
SPEAKER_01
And as I go down, I m just going to butterfly guard you up, you know, and then I m going to try to flip my hip back to the mat and get up in a wizard position.
7
SPEAKER_01
Like I ve used that quite a few times where it is kind of like a bailout mechanism that gets me back to maybe not a great position, but obviously much better than being taken down.
7
SPEAKER_02
Beautiful.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_02
Let me ask you quickly about crypto, because you re also, you have a show, you have a lot of interest in cryptocurrency.
7
SPEAKER_02
Why are you interested in cryptocurrency?
7
SPEAKER_02
Is it just a financial investment or is there a philosophy that attracts you to it?
7
SPEAKER_01
Philosophy.
7
SPEAKER_01
So I, my friend told me about it in 2017.
7
SPEAKER_01
I was actually, I went to, I was, my friend met me in Shanghai, I fought in one championship, and he told me, and the second he told me, I m like,
7
SPEAKER_01
I m so in, because I had read Ron Paul and the Fed.
7
SPEAKER_01
I had read, I had an understanding how the Fed is unfair.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so when he told me about crypto, this decentralized system that no one has control over, it just made sense.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so we had the podcast with Tim Michael Saylor on, and I love the way he said it.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s like, who do you trust more with your money?
7
SPEAKER_01
Do you trust the politicians, or do you trust engineers?
7
SPEAKER_01
I think that s an easy choice.
7
SPEAKER_01
I don t even think I have to think about that.
7
SPEAKER_01
I don t trust politicians, no matter what country they come from, China, America, wherever, I don t trust them.
7
SPEAKER_02
So what about in 2017, what was it, Bitcoin?
7
SPEAKER_02
Are you, what do you find, which ones do you find interesting?
7
SPEAKER_02
There s all kinds of ideas, so there s the more sort of primal mechanism of proof-of-work and Bitcoin, and then there s smart contracts ideas, and there s all kinds of innovations across the different
7
SPEAKER_01
So I can t say I m in super deep where I understand the technical components of a lot of them.
7
SPEAKER_01
I understand what Bitcoin can do for people.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so that s probably the one I focus the most on.
7
SPEAKER_01
And I actually, I think I was talking about, I was trying to convince Michael to talk about Bitcoin because he hates it also.
7
SPEAKER_01
We had dinner last night.
7
SPEAKER_01
And I think most of the main problems Bitcoin solves, people in America are so American-centric they don t understand it.
7
SPEAKER_01
So like high levels of inflation.
7
SPEAKER_01
That hasn t happened in America in a long time, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
But someone in Venezuela is like, oh, I get that.
7
SPEAKER_01
you know, or remittance payments, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
Remittance payments to you see it.
7
SPEAKER_01
So I saw this in when I was spending time in Singapore, Singapore is obviously a really wealthy country.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so you d have Indonesian workers or Philippine, and they would all go on Sundays, they would go to these places to ship stuff back to their families and to Western Union, Western Union gouges the shit out of these people.
7
SPEAKER_01
I mean, they re taking
7
SPEAKER_01
8, 10, 12% of whatever they re sending, then it takes five days and the person s going to pick it up.
7
SPEAKER_01
Whereas Bitcoin, I could send you Bitcoin person to person, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
So like American people don t understand that.
7
SPEAKER_01
American people don t really understand the unbanked, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
A decent portion of the world is unbanked.
7
SPEAKER_01
They don t have access to it.
7
SPEAKER_01
And a much, much, much smaller portion of the world
7
SPEAKER_01
doesn t have access to internet.
7
SPEAKER_01
So if I can put a mobile wallet on your phone and we can send money person to person.
7
SPEAKER_01
So there s a whole bunch of those problems where Americans don t really think about that are really obvious that this solves.
7
SPEAKER_01
So I think that s the key one.
7
SPEAKER_01
Obviously, the fact that the value goes up is really outstanding also.
7
SPEAKER_01
But if you look at it,
7
SPEAKER_01
I got in in 2017, so I got to watch it go up.
7
SPEAKER_01
I didn t sell shit at the top, really stupid.
7
SPEAKER_01
And then the majority of my time was spent through the bear market, and so I had to love it for the principles that it provided, not the fact that I actually lost money in the beginning and now I m way up.
7
SPEAKER_01
And you re just holding.
7
SPEAKER_01
Just holding.
7
SPEAKER_01
I think at the top of this bull market, I ll probably sell a very small portion.
7
SPEAKER_02
So you mean like right now there s a bull market?
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, most people think say in the next three to six months, we ll be at the top of the market.
7
SPEAKER_01
So probably when that happens, I ll probably sell a little bit.
7
SPEAKER_02
You gotta huddle it, Ben.
7
SPEAKER_01
One of my podcast co-hosts, he s like super rich, like uber rich.
7
SPEAKER_01
So he has lost touch with the everyman.
7
SPEAKER_01
So here s my argument to him, it s really simple.
7
SPEAKER_01
And listen, I m doing well for myself in life, but if say someone buys a Bitcoin, one Bitcoin at $5,000, which it was last year,
7
SPEAKER_01
And this Bitcoin goes from $5,000 to $200,000, which is right around what a lot of people think the peak is going to be.
7
SPEAKER_01
And they bought one Bitcoin.
7
SPEAKER_01
And they re living in a $200,000 house.
7
SPEAKER_01
So to take half of that, right, you started with $5,000 of Bitcoin, to sell half of Bitcoin for $100,000 and pay off your house, your remaining house payment, that s life-changing to someone.
7
SPEAKER_01
It really is.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so you still have a Bitcoin, so if Bitcoin goes to a million, you re still going to have half a million, and you re going to feel really, really rich with that half a million dollars because you bought it for $2,500, you know?
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
So yeah, so I would encourage anyone who s not uber rich to, if you have huge profits, take a little bit of them because it could change your life.
7
SPEAKER_02
And if you hold it and it goes down, you re going to feel the pain of that.
7
SPEAKER_02
Sometimes if you re more constrained financially, it s much more psychologically difficult to ride the ups and downs.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it is, for sure.
7
SPEAKER_01
They have these really fascinating things in Bitcoin.
7
SPEAKER_01
Actually, we just had the guy, one of the main guys on our podcast, it s called On Chain Metrics.
7
SPEAKER_01
So all wallet transactions are visible.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so they have all these fun categories.
7
SPEAKER_01
I think you said you don t like numbers,
7
SPEAKER_01
I like numbers.
7
SPEAKER_01
I love numbers.
7
SPEAKER_01
I love numbers also.
7
SPEAKER_01
So they have all these different categories.
7
SPEAKER_01
Like you can see how long a wallet has held a Bitcoin, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
Or how many Bitcoins are in a certain wallet.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so what they ve seen during the downturn, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
So April, it kind of peaked and went down, is that the whales are still buying.
7
SPEAKER_01
So whales, people with 1,000 or more, are still buying.
7
SPEAKER_01
They ve said the main group of sellers is the ones who held it from zero to three months.
7
SPEAKER_01
So like, they don t have money, they bought it because they thought it was going up, and I was like, oh shit, I gotta sell it.
7
SPEAKER_01
Right, whereas anyone s had it for a long time is generally still holding on to it.
7
SPEAKER_02
That s interesting.
7
SPEAKER_02
That s a good indicator, right, for the whole space.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_02
Well, let me ask you for some advice.
7
SPEAKER_02
You ve been through one heck of a career, one heck of a life.
7
SPEAKER_02
What advice would you give to a young person today?
7
SPEAKER_01
Well, in wrestling, I think wrestling s really a microcosm of what your life s gonna be.
7
SPEAKER_01
And that s why one of the things that I stress to kids is like, if we can go through this now and you figure, I have a couple kids who are struggling with certain things right now.
7
SPEAKER_01
If you can figure out this now in wrestling.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s gonna be a lot better to figure it out now and get over this mental hump than when you re 32 and you have two kids and, right, and your job s not going well.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s gonna be a lot worse, it s gonna be a lot more painful then.
7
SPEAKER_01
Let s fucking figure it out now.
7
SPEAKER_01
So a lot of these things, a lot of these lessons we can learn from wrestling, whether it s persistence or perseverance or work ethic or, you know, I said wrestlers show up on time and they work hard, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
If we can learn these things at an early age, those characteristics will generally carry on throughout our life.
7
SPEAKER_01
And those are the things that are going to make us really successful.
7
SPEAKER_01
So I would say find a great coach, someone who s going to spend a lot of time and put a lot of time into you and make sure they have a lot of wisdom and steal all the wisdom that you can from them.
7
SPEAKER_01
And then if you can be successful at one thing, generally whatever that recipe was that took you to be successful at that, apply it to everything else.
7
SPEAKER_01
Apply it to the rest of your life.
7
SPEAKER_01
Apply it to getting a wife that you enjoy.
7
SPEAKER_01
Apply it to living in a place you wanna live, doing a job you wanna do.
7
SPEAKER_01
There s so many possibilities, and you just have to be bold enough to go take those chances.
7
SPEAKER_02
It s interesting, because early on in life is when you have much more time.
7
SPEAKER_02
People don t realize this.
7
SPEAKER_02
Time to learn the lessons.
7
SPEAKER_02
Somehow, later in life, you get busier, responsibilities and all that kind of stuff.
7
SPEAKER_02
High school s a magical time, even college.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, for sure.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, there s so much time.
7
SPEAKER_02
Right?
7
SPEAKER_02
To learn.
7
SPEAKER_00
But you don t even have kids yet.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I don t have kids, but it still fills up.
7
SPEAKER_02
Well, no, on purpose.
7
SPEAKER_02
And I did something that many people don t seem to be able to do.
7
SPEAKER_02
I walked away from a lot of responsibilities.
7
SPEAKER_02
How?
7
SPEAKER_02
by saying goodbye.
7
SPEAKER_02
But meetings, everybody around me at MIT was like, meetings fill the day, and then you have more projects, and you do a great job, and you become successful, and then more meetings fill the day, and more responsibilities, as opposed to like, wait a minute, do I wanna be involved in all these things?
7
SPEAKER_02
And instead, do I wanna find one or two things to really focus on?
7
SPEAKER_02
That s what I choose.
7
SPEAKER_02
But like, that becomes harder and harder and harder as you get older.
7
SPEAKER_01
No, I mean, I m sure.
7
SPEAKER_01
And also, the more success you have, you become sought after other places, too.
7
SPEAKER_01
I m sure that s happening with you.
7
SPEAKER_02
And it s hard to keep saying no, no, no.
7
SPEAKER_01
Saying no is hard.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_02
You re known for roasting people with a single boom roasted line.
7
SPEAKER_02
So any ideas?
7
SPEAKER_02
Maybe you want to mention malice, but any ideas come to mind when you look at me?
7
SPEAKER_01
Man, you know what?
7
SPEAKER_01
If I was gonna boom roast someone, I would wanna kinda like research their career and dissect them and figure out their biggest negatives.
7
SPEAKER_01
Get to the core.
7
SPEAKER_01
And I didn t have that notion with you.
7
SPEAKER_01
I figured, I got a general sense of, okay, he s really successful, he s super sharp.
7
SPEAKER_01
He s really interested in some really interesting things.
7
SPEAKER_01
I bet we ll have a great conversation, but I had no intention to roast you.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, there you go.
7
SPEAKER_02
What about Malice?
7
SPEAKER_02
You had dinner with him last night.
7
SPEAKER_01
Hmm, for him.
7
SPEAKER_01
Oh, man.
7
SPEAKER_02
How d you get to know him, by the way?
7
SPEAKER_01
Twitter.
7
SPEAKER_01
Just Twitter.
7
SPEAKER_01
Twitter s the most magical place in the world, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
I always tell people it s the greatest source of information if you know how to use it.
7
SPEAKER_01
He s insane on Twitter, actually.
7
SPEAKER_01
So I had to unfollow him on Twitter.
7
SPEAKER_01
It was too intense?
7
SPEAKER_01
No, it was too much.
7
SPEAKER_01
It fills up.
7
SPEAKER_01
I want to be able to consume the content.
7
SPEAKER_01
So if I want to see something he says, I can go to his page, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
But it s just too much for my timeline.
7
SPEAKER_01
I want to be able to consume who I follow, so I try to not follow a lot of people, because I want to be able to consume them.
7
SPEAKER_01
And he was too much.
7
SPEAKER_01
He fights the trolls, which I don t know why you would ever fight the trolls.
7
SPEAKER_01
There s just too many of them.
7
SPEAKER_02
Well, he s the troll himself.
7
SPEAKER_02
He s like the big troll fighting the little trolls.
7
SPEAKER_02
He s the king troll.
7
SPEAKER_00
There s a million of them.
7
SPEAKER_00
So even if you kill 100,000, there s still not 100,000 left.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s the same people.
7
SPEAKER_00
Oh, he s got to ignore them.
7
SPEAKER_02
It s like the Night Walker or whatever.
7
SPEAKER_02
Well, I ll take it because you had nothing.
7
SPEAKER_02
You couldn t roast GSP out of respect, too.
7
SPEAKER_02
So I m just going to take that as a sign of respect.
7
SPEAKER_01
What do you say bad about GSP?
7
SPEAKER_01
Now I try to roast his hair.
7
SPEAKER_01
Like, why are you trying to grow hair now after all these years?
7
SPEAKER_01
He looked good bald.
7
SPEAKER_01
Everyone loved him with his head shaved.
7
SPEAKER_01
Now it looks kind of strange.
7
SPEAKER_01
Like, why you got hair now?
7
SPEAKER_02
Well, it was one of the more surreal moments of my life.
7
SPEAKER_02
So he was here, and he wore a black suit and tie.
7
SPEAKER_02
Oh, really?
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, we did the podcast with him, just mirror image of me.
7
SPEAKER_02
And then we also did, I haven t released it yet, but just a video together, and I was doing martial arts stuff in a suit and tie.
7
SPEAKER_02
That was quite...
7
SPEAKER_02
That s like certain moments in your life are just like, I can t believe I was part of that.
7
SPEAKER_01
With GSP, I don t think I have anything to roast him about.
7
SPEAKER_01
I mean, maybe the Matt Serra thing would be the one that you could get him with.
7
SPEAKER_01
But I would be really fascinated to really dig deep from a sports psychology standpoint, because he always talks about how much fear he had when he was competing.
7
SPEAKER_01
And I find that to be interesting, because obviously, to me, it s almost like, was he successful?
7
SPEAKER_01
despite that, not because of that, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
And because anxiety usually leads to really negative performance for the majority of people.
7
SPEAKER_01
And what was it about him that the anxiety wasn t super negative?
7
SPEAKER_01
You know what I m saying?
7
SPEAKER_01
Like, it s very interesting.
7
SPEAKER_02
I wonder that too.
7
SPEAKER_02
So I have, I wonder that about him, but I have a huge amount of anxiety, especially with people, just about everything.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_02
I wonder if that s helpful or not.
7
SPEAKER_02
It feels like it s very helpful.
7
SPEAKER_01
I think probably your everyday life is different than like in a performance or a competition.
7
SPEAKER_01
You have to be like super in the moment of what you re doing.
7
SPEAKER_01
So anything that s pulling you away, like, oh my gosh, high school kids, right, that coach.
7
SPEAKER_01
oh my gosh, that girl s in the stands, and if I get beat, then, and they re actively thinking about this other thing when this is going on, and I need 100% of your focus right here.
7
SPEAKER_02
Well, he s never, I don t think he has anxiety in the ring, that s the point.
7
SPEAKER_02
I think, like, I have the same thing, like, if I have a really high performance thing that I have to do, I don t know, a lecture in front of a lot of people.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that d be a great example.
7
SPEAKER_02
that there s huge amount of anxiety weeks ahead, days ahead, hours ahead.
7
SPEAKER_01
So you have a system to get rid of it then, as you before.
7
SPEAKER_02
No, maybe, but it s just the body gets rid of it somehow.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, there s not a system.
7
SPEAKER_01
Subconscious system.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it s self-preservation.
7
SPEAKER_01
So you don t actually have anxiety while you re performing.
7
SPEAKER_01
No.
7
SPEAKER_01
So that s like, so then that problem somehow, that problem has solved itself, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
The problem is when the anxiety is actually happening while the wrestling match is happening, that s the real issue.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, but it like sneaks in there, too.
7
SPEAKER_02
That s the difference between MMA and wrestling is there s no breaks in wrestling, right?
7
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
7
SPEAKER_01
I guess there is.
7
SPEAKER_02
You can look at the crowd a little bit like you can look so maybe, but like the there s other things we have to perform.
7
SPEAKER_02
Well, there s more breaks like a lecture.
7
SPEAKER_02
You can catch yourself thinking like in this conversation, you know, yeah, like I ve said a bunch of stuff where I think,
7
SPEAKER_02
Why the hell did you say that?
7
SPEAKER_02
That s dumb.
7
SPEAKER_02
That s the anxiety, because there s a pause.
7
SPEAKER_02
I don t know, I think it s just...
8
SPEAKER_02
pushing me to be better, but maybe I could be way better if I let go of that.
8
SPEAKER_02
It s scary to think that GSB if you let go of that.
8
SPEAKER_00
But he s been better.
8
SPEAKER_00
Or did he have a, like you re saying, you don t necessarily feel those, so I think certain people that I ve coached, they would describe how they would feel literally during the wrestling match, right?
8
SPEAKER_00
And you re saying during the speech performance, it s mostly gone.
8
SPEAKER_00
And it would be interesting to see if,
8
SPEAKER_00
You know, he talked a lot about that, but if it was all if it was all the way somehow gone and it means he would have a mechanism for it.
8
SPEAKER_00
So I had a really bad performance my freshman year of high school at Nationals because I had I had the ability to be anxious.
8
SPEAKER_00
And when my coaches talked about like and a lot of a type personalities are kind of that way, you know, because they re trying to consider all possibilities at the same time.
8
SPEAKER_00
And and while we re actually performing or competing, it s negative.
8
SPEAKER_00
performance, right?
8
SPEAKER_00
So he said he would always, leading up to the match within, say, an hour, his thing was talking about fishing.
8
SPEAKER_00
He would get someone to talk about fishing with him because it would stop him thinking about the match and being uber anxious.
8
SPEAKER_00
So I kind of really took that to heart and it really helped me as I would always have someone to talk to and just goof around about whatever.
8
SPEAKER_00
So I m not thinking about this thing.
8
SPEAKER_00
And then once I step in, it s time to go.
8
SPEAKER_00
So I didn t have this anxious buildup.
8
SPEAKER_00
And that was how, for me, I took it away.
8
SPEAKER_00
But like you said, you have
8
SPEAKER_00
A way to get away, obviously.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I guess so.
8
SPEAKER_02
I guess there s little tricks you come up with.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, you start thinking about it.
8
SPEAKER_02
Not fishing.
8
SPEAKER_02
Maybe I should try the fishing thing.
8
SPEAKER_00
I hate fishing.
8
SPEAKER_00
So boring.
8
SPEAKER_02
Well, maybe it s good to think about that.
8
SPEAKER_02
All right, Ben, this is like I told you, I m a big fan.
8
SPEAKER_02
I m a big fan of your wrestling, your fighting, your personality.
8
SPEAKER_02
Thank you for coming down.
8
SPEAKER_02
Thank you for talking today.
8
SPEAKER_01
Appreciate it.
8
SPEAKER_02
It s a huge honor.
8
SPEAKER_02
Bam.
8
SPEAKER_02
Let s go wrestle.
8
SPEAKER_01
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Ben Askren.
8
SPEAKER_01
To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.
8
SPEAKER_01
And now, let me leave you with some words from Muhammad Ali.
8
SPEAKER_01
Only a man who knows what it is like to be defeated can reach down to the bottom of his soul and come up with the extra ounce of power it takes to win when the match is even.
8
SPEAKER_01
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.