0
SPEAKER_00
Do you know that I was part of the founding team of the mental health supports at NYU in the fertility clinic?
0
SPEAKER_00
Oh my God.
0
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
0
SPEAKER_00
I didn t know that.
0
SPEAKER_00
Because of what I had gone through, because there was absolutely nothing.
0
SPEAKER_00
You know, you re completely dependent for a long time if you happen to have a nice nurse.
0
SPEAKER_00
Right.
0
SPEAKER_02
They don t know anything about your personal stuff.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, we don t.
0
SPEAKER_01
I didn t know we were stumbling into something extra special.
0
SPEAKER_00
I mean, it s 30 years ago.
0
SPEAKER_00
Actually more, it s 35 years ago.
0
SPEAKER_00
But yeah, you don t forget.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
0
SPEAKER_01
Well, we re the luckiest girls.
0
SPEAKER_01
per uge, because we have a very special guest today.
0
SPEAKER_01
So this, just to be candid, is a bonus episode.
0
SPEAKER_01
We were not planning on this.
0
SPEAKER_01
When we started the season, we didn t expect that we would need, necessarily, some bonus episodes post-retrieval.
0
SPEAKER_01
But because of the way it all unfolded, that has left us with some lingering feelings and thoughts, and who better to talk to
0
SPEAKER_01
us through our pain than Esther Perel, our go-to expert.
0
SPEAKER_01
We re famous.
0
SPEAKER_01
I can t believe we get to have you in the attic as often as we do.
0
SPEAKER_01
It s so special.
0
SPEAKER_01
So I guess the audience at this point knows that I got two eggs out of the retrieval.
0
SPEAKER_01
Liz got 13 eggs.
0
SPEAKER_01
The bullseye number, quote unquote, is 15 to 20.
0
SPEAKER_01
So both of us were disappointed.
0
SPEAKER_01
And I was like,
0
SPEAKER_01
Okay, so I got essentially zero is how I felt and took it.
0
SPEAKER_01
It was such an intense process and especially because of the way we did this.
0
SPEAKER_01
It was just us two, Kristen and Dax were out of town, like we were in fertility camp.
0
SPEAKER_01
We did these shots together every night.
0
SPEAKER_01
I gave Liz her shots every night because needles, ow, for her.
0
SPEAKER_01
And we did this every day.
0
SPEAKER_01
At the very beginning, we talked about our
0
SPEAKER_01
feelings, how they were evolving and the night before shots, how that went.
0
SPEAKER_01
And then we talked to experts and then people with fertility stories for two weeks.
0
SPEAKER_01
So we were inundated in this space.
0
SPEAKER_01
We did do it so publicly, which felt like what I always do, which is
0
SPEAKER_01
Make something hard work.
0
SPEAKER_02
That makes it easy.
0
SPEAKER_02
When it s not what you think it s going to be, then you re like, oh, wow, now I have to share this devastating news.
0
SPEAKER_02
You said I was like disappointed.
0
SPEAKER_02
Like you were devastated.
0
SPEAKER_02
That was really hard.
0
SPEAKER_02
And you ve bounced back a lot in an incredible way.
0
SPEAKER_02
But yeah, then you re suddenly like, not only am I devastated, but then I have to share this result with everybody.
0
SPEAKER_01
And there was a question.
0
SPEAKER_01
I was like, maybe I won t.
0
SPEAKER_01
We didn t have to.
0
SPEAKER_01
Our last episode we recorded, we had just had the retrieval.
0
SPEAKER_01
So we knew how many eggs we got, but we didn t know how many were mature yet.
0
SPEAKER_01
So at that point I had six eggs retrieved.
0
SPEAKER_01
Still not great.
0
SPEAKER_01
But along the process, it was becoming clear that was going to be ish my number.
0
SPEAKER_01
So six seemed okay.
0
SPEAKER_01
And then Liz had 19 retrieved.
0
SPEAKER_01
So that was like, okay, like we did it.
0
SPEAKER_01
We made it through.
0
SPEAKER_01
And then the next day, both of our doctors called.
0
SPEAKER_00
But you see, if you talk about numbers of eggs, it keeps you in this kind of mathematic equation and you don t have to talk about loss.
0
SPEAKER_00
Whereas what I think happens, if you are in a fertility treatment because you have an awareness that you have had challenges, then you have already begun from a place of loss.
0
SPEAKER_00
Certain things have not worked and you are opting for the next series of interventions.
0
SPEAKER_00
You are in touch with the longing, you are in touch with what hasn t happened, you are in touch with grief, you are in touch with loss.
0
SPEAKER_00
But when you re trying to retrieve eggs on your own in order to freeze them, you don t start from a place of deficiency.
0
SPEAKER_00
You start from a place of you think I m going to prevent something, you know, I m creating a credit account.
0
SPEAKER_00
And so you are not actually as well prepared for the experience of loss.
0
SPEAKER_00
When you say I had nothing, because two is nothing, it depends.
0
SPEAKER_00
It s actually not true.
0
SPEAKER_00
It all depends on the quality.
0
SPEAKER_00
But still, it feels like a little death.
0
SPEAKER_00
Some people say I failed, even though somewhere they know it s not them, but they feel like their body betrayed them, like they didn t deliver.
0
SPEAKER_00
But there is loss.
0
SPEAKER_00
And it s a strange experience of loss and death, because on some level you say of what exactly, right?
0
SPEAKER_00
And this is where there s an incredible term that was coined, actually, by a colleague of mine, Pauline Boss, way back when, and it was called ambiguous loss.
0
SPEAKER_00
And she specifically used it around miscarriage and around fertility, because ambiguous loss is when you can t fully resolve, because either, like in Alzheimer s, for example, your person is still physically there, but emotionally or psychologically gone.
0
SPEAKER_00
But in Miscarriage, the person is emotionally there, the baby, the eggs, what you attach to it, the story that gets accompanied, which means a child, but physically there is nothing.
0
SPEAKER_00
And so it is a different kind of mourning.
0
SPEAKER_00
And I think if we re going to make something useful to people who listen to us, it s really to not just stay with numbers and hormones, because there is something very
0
SPEAKER_00
alienating about that language too.
0
SPEAKER_00
Follicles, counts, hormones.
0
SPEAKER_00
I went through the story and I remember thinking there was a way in which the entire medical establishment, this is way back when, but still had a way of never using the word child.
0
SPEAKER_00
Oh, never.
0
SPEAKER_00
It just talked about follicles and sperm counts and eggs qualities and membranes.
0
SPEAKER_00
Can we name this experience?
0
SPEAKER_00
because there is a real goal to it, and it has a name.
0
SPEAKER_00
And if we name it, then we actually will acknowledge the loss, and we will know why we are so disappointed, depressed, sad, and why we need to let go of this.
0
SPEAKER_00
Now, when you do it in the natural cycle, in women, you know, they count, they get to their days, they start to give their shots, then they do the insemination, and then they wait.
0
SPEAKER_00
And then there is a week where you can think about everything you want because nothing s going to happen anyway.
0
SPEAKER_00
And then comes the next count.
0
SPEAKER_00
Are the periods going to come?
0
SPEAKER_00
Are the periods not going to come?
0
SPEAKER_00
If it doesn t work, it s like they re to let down, you know?
0
SPEAKER_00
And then you have to wait a month.
0
SPEAKER_00
So then everyone who s gone through this dance gets that rhythm of the period that you prepared, the period of ovulation, the period of waiting, and then the period of resolution.
0
SPEAKER_00
I think that is where I want to put the focus for you, is that this is a loss.
0
SPEAKER_00
And when you say it s weird because there s nobody really there, it is a small death.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_00
It is a creation that didn t fertilize.
0
SPEAKER_00
And so if it didn t fertilize, it died.
0
SPEAKER_00
And it s symbolic, but it is no less real in your experience.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_01
It s nice to hear that because I think in the moment it felt very silly to be so
0
SPEAKER_01
thrown by it.
0
SPEAKER_01
And I really was.
0
SPEAKER_01
We went to, like, get a breakfast burrito or something.
0
SPEAKER_01
Totally benign.
0
SPEAKER_01
Also, and this is with everyone in anything with pregnancy or their bodies.
0
SPEAKER_01
We were in so much pain.
0
SPEAKER_01
We were so bloated.
0
SPEAKER_01
We couldn t even really stand up straight.
0
SPEAKER_01
We had just gone through these procedures.
0
SPEAKER_01
Surgery.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
0
SPEAKER_01
Amnesia.
0
SPEAKER_01
Anesthesia.
0
SPEAKER_01
anesthesia, and we were really in pain.
0
SPEAKER_01
So then when she called and was like, OK, so I have bad news, kind of from I have bad news, two eggs were mature.
0
SPEAKER_01
don t remember barely anything else she said.
0
SPEAKER_01
I mean, she was saying stuff, but if we do it again, then X, Y, and Z, we ll try this.
0
SPEAKER_01
And at one point I remember I said, so what does this mean?
0
SPEAKER_01
I couldn t really comprehend it.
0
SPEAKER_01
She was like, well, you re not infertile.
0
SPEAKER_01
She knew I needed to hear that, I think, but I got off and I was like, okay, well.
0
SPEAKER_01
OK, I ll do it again.
0
SPEAKER_00
It s fine.
0
SPEAKER_00
Right.
0
SPEAKER_00
But you see that you enter a whole mindset now because I can t tell you that it s never going to happen.
0
SPEAKER_00
You ve just done it one cycle.
0
SPEAKER_00
So, of course, we need to keep your hopes up.
0
SPEAKER_00
So now we re going to talk about all the other procedures.
0
SPEAKER_00
And I think that before you start talking about all the other procedures, it s really important to allow oneself to actually sink, to get really down, to realize, shit, you know, it didn t happen.
0
SPEAKER_00
I really wanted this and to go through that until you get your strength back and you go for that next.
0
SPEAKER_00
What happens sometimes from the well-meaning medical profession is that no sooner have I told you I have bad news than I m telling you, but I have other, you know, there s so many other things we can try.
0
SPEAKER_00
And it s well-meaning, but it is actually not really what one needs.
0
SPEAKER_00
One needs to just mope or weep.
0
SPEAKER_00
And I m very happy that we talk about that
1
SPEAKER_01
because that is the part of the support that isn t talked about.
1
SPEAKER_01
What is talked about more is what are the other things that you can do and don t give up and you just began and that s all fine.
1
SPEAKER_01
But since you re bringing me, I know that other experience.
1
SPEAKER_01
And it s also the fact that you didn t have the same results.
1
SPEAKER_01
So here you are, you know, you want to do this together, but now you have a better situation than you and you want her to succeed.
1
SPEAKER_01
You feel a little guilty that it worked for you and it didn t work for you.
1
SPEAKER_01
you feel a little jealous and envious that it worked for your friend and not for you.
1
SPEAKER_01
All of these things are there.
1
SPEAKER_01
Even if we try to be mature about it, it s natural that there will be an element of envy and an element of guilt because the most beautiful thing would be that we could both be witnesses of each other s fertilities.
1
SPEAKER_02
I do want to ask you that because of just the natural way of how it went, we focus so much on me and the sadness, but I do want to hear a little bit about, were you just so uncomfortable
1
SPEAKER_01
Well, is it hard for you to celebrate when the very person that you re doing it with?
1
SPEAKER_01
It s obvious to me.
1
SPEAKER_00
I mean, not to the full extent, but there must be something of that.
1
SPEAKER_00
At the very beginning, when I told my doctor what I, you know, I m making a podcast about this.
1
SPEAKER_00
They told me just so you know, like, don t compare numbers.
1
SPEAKER_00
And when you got that phone call, I really did have like a moment of how do I help her?
1
SPEAKER_00
I m the 13 eggs consoling, you know what I mean?
1
SPEAKER_00
And even again, 13 eggs is still not the number that I wanted, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
But I can t complain about this to Monica.
1
SPEAKER_00
Again, we re not here to compare whose loss is bigger.
1
SPEAKER_00
The loss is different and it means something different, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
And I love the term ambiguous loss because I can relate to it with even dating or a job.
1
SPEAKER_00
Sometimes the thing that you don t get
1
SPEAKER_00
you experience a bigger loss from it than the thing that you did have and that you lost.
1
SPEAKER_00
The relationship that you imagined in your head, how it would go and how you would feel with this person, when it happens and it doesn t work out, it can almost be a bigger loss or again, harder to grieve or more complicated to grieve because it never was the thing that you imagined it would be in your head.
1
SPEAKER_00
And as you re talking with miscarriage, as you re talking about it with egg retrieval,
1
SPEAKER_00
It s not a fantasy, but it is a story that you ve created.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then you feel dumb grieving it.
1
SPEAKER_00
You re like, I m grieving a thing that never existed.
1
SPEAKER_01
I mean, you grieve a few things.
1
SPEAKER_01
You grieve the result, but you also grieve an approach to life, right?
1
SPEAKER_01
And on some level, when you decide to freeze your eggs, you think, I am in control of my fertility.
1
SPEAKER_01
I m in control of my life.
1
SPEAKER_01
I m an emancipated woman who has children, etc.
1
SPEAKER_01
You try to defy the biological imperative.
1
SPEAKER_01
You really think that science and magic and good luck will prevail on your side.
1
SPEAKER_01
And when this doesn t happen, it does put a lot of women who think of themselves as in charge in confronting the realities of the things that you don t control.
1
SPEAKER_00
And can I add one more thing to that?
1
SPEAKER_00
Because I also felt for you, Monica.
1
SPEAKER_00
And again, I feel like this happens with dating where you re like, I didn t even really want you.
1
SPEAKER_00
And you re you re rejecting me.
1
SPEAKER_00
You didn t even know if you wanted kids.
1
SPEAKER_00
And by the end of the retrieval, you did.
1
SPEAKER_02
That was a whole part of this for me, because, you know, you ve you ve been on our other show like I m independent.
1
SPEAKER_02
I don t even know if I want that.
1
SPEAKER_02
I don t even know if I want a partner.
1
SPEAKER_02
I don t even know if I want kids.
1
SPEAKER_02
All defenses.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I did.
1
SPEAKER_02
We just released the first episode.
1
SPEAKER_02
Also, that s another story.
1
SPEAKER_02
Editing this show is tough for me.
1
SPEAKER_02
But I was listening back.
1
SPEAKER_02
First of all, I m so pessimistic, so pessimistic.
1
SPEAKER_02
I don t even know.
1
SPEAKER_02
It s just insurance.
1
SPEAKER_02
And through those two weeks, I did an episode of Armchair.
1
SPEAKER_02
Dax was out of town.
1
SPEAKER_02
We did a fact check.
1
SPEAKER_02
And he told a little story about Delta.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I started crying.
1
SPEAKER_02
And he was like, what is that about?
1
SPEAKER_02
Are you worried you re not going to have that?
1
SPEAKER_02
I think at the moment I was just like, I don t know.
1
SPEAKER_02
But then I was like, yeah, I am.
1
SPEAKER_02
I want that.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I had to really come to terms with it.
1
SPEAKER_02
And it was very vulnerable and hard for me to tell myself, you do want this.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I finally got there.
1
SPEAKER_02
I was like, oh, my God, I finally got there.
1
SPEAKER_02
Then we did the thing.
1
SPEAKER_02
And then it was like, I knew it, I knew it, I knew I shouldn t have let myself feel the thing because it just comes with this pain.
1
SPEAKER_01
It comes with the pain, but it also comes with the motivation.
1
SPEAKER_01
It comes with clarity.
1
SPEAKER_01
You cannot do this while you remain kind of wishy-washy.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s really too involved.
1
SPEAKER_01
If you ever wear wishy-washy on round one, by round two, you definitely know why you re doing this.
1
SPEAKER_01
And even if sometimes you re doing this because you can t stand the fact that it s not happening, it s kind of in the negation of it.
1
SPEAKER_01
The disappointment of it not working is almost bigger than what you think is the joy of it happening.
1
SPEAKER_01
That said, it s okay to be very clear that you want to have children and to know that when that doesn t happen in the cycles, that you have the grief that comes with the fact that a child
1
SPEAKER_01
hasn t arrived yet.
1
SPEAKER_01
And to think that you can protect yourself from the grief by being wishy-washy over, do I really want it?
1
SPEAKER_01
I m not sure I really want that.
1
SPEAKER_01
So if it doesn t happen, there s no big loss.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s a real fantasy.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s a fantasy in the domain of fertility because it plays in this idea that you can decide everything.
1
SPEAKER_01
And the fact is, I don t think we decide everything.
1
SPEAKER_01
And fertility treatment is one of those biological truths that remind us that we don t decide everything.
1
SPEAKER_02
word because I do think a lot of women who enter this experience are very independent, are very hardworking, they have big careers, you know, they ve focused on other things for a long time.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s very humbling to realize that no matter how
1
SPEAKER_01
much agency and how much ingenuity you have and how much foresight and how much planning that there s a piece of this that is in the hands of whatever you want to call it.
1
SPEAKER_01
Who knows what.
1
SPEAKER_01
Nature, God, destiny, chance.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s not your doing.
1
SPEAKER_01
No matter how much you prepare.
1
SPEAKER_01
This is a very humbling experience, which they don t tell you in the freeze your eggs plot.
1
SPEAKER_01
No.
1
SPEAKER_01
The Frisian wreck plot is a plot of complete control.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes, that s so true.
1
SPEAKER_01
That does not leave the opening to the vulnerability and the humility of the things that we don t control.
1
SPEAKER_00
And do you have a specific way into this topic?
1
SPEAKER_00
because our experience is unique to egg freezing, but is also not that unique in terms of there s so many different ways that women come into fertility.
1
SPEAKER_00
Look, it s a very interesting thing.
1
SPEAKER_01
I am from the generation with the pill and before AIDS.
1
SPEAKER_01
So we had a complete conceptual revolution in our head.
1
SPEAKER_01
For the first time, we could block procreation and we could separate sex from reproduction.
1
SPEAKER_01
Then we began to separate reproduction from sex.
1
SPEAKER_01
And both of these things gave us an illusion of control that no women have ever known historically or still till today in the vast majority of the world.
1
SPEAKER_01
So we didn t have the egg piece at that moment when I was having children, but I definitely went through my share of fertility treatments.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I remember the phases.
1
SPEAKER_01
It was IUIs.
1
SPEAKER_01
I was in the first, first generations of IVF.
1
SPEAKER_01
And every month you went through that whole thing.
1
SPEAKER_01
And it was grief.
1
SPEAKER_01
It was a process of mourning.
1
SPEAKER_01
And it was ambiguous because it was invisible because nobody saw anything.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s not like there even was a kid and the kid went.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s that, you know, these eggs were there and they kind of suddenly vanished.
1
SPEAKER_01
So I was
1
SPEAKER_01
Teaching at NYU at the time, there were all these clinics opening up, the first of all these fertility clinics, and there was zero attention to the psychological experience and to the relational experience.
1
SPEAKER_01
If it s done in a couple, it s the relational experience.
1
SPEAKER_01
And if it s done among two friends who are going through it together, it s also a relational experience.
1
SPEAKER_01
And if you go through it alone, it s your relationship with all those people who may or may not know anything about it.
1
SPEAKER_01
And it s about all the others who have already had children and whose baby showers you have to attend every time.
1
SPEAKER_01
So it s always relational.
1
SPEAKER_01
And it s about the parents who are putting pressure on you or the sister or the brother that have just had another twins and et cetera, et cetera.
1
SPEAKER_01
So I think that that piece that is not the lab story, the counts.
1
SPEAKER_01
that one has never really been given full attention.
1
SPEAKER_01
And it is actually really the one that we live with day in, day out, minute by minute.
1
SPEAKER_01
You become hyper aware of your body, of what it does, of how it s responding.
1
SPEAKER_01
Are these periods arriving?
1
SPEAKER_01
Have they not arrived?
1
SPEAKER_01
Has it been another day?
1
SPEAKER_01
Am I delusional?
1
SPEAKER_01
Did I really visit the count correct?
1
SPEAKER_01
No, I missed my count.
1
SPEAKER_01
I don t remember anything.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s filled with stories like that.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I wanted to put the focus on
1
SPEAKER_01
the accompaniment around the psychological and emotional part and the relationship part.
2
SPEAKER_02
that it needed to bring mental health people into the medical field of fertility treatments, which often were people who had kind of a God-like creation.
2
SPEAKER_02
Right.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, definitely.
2
SPEAKER_01
Ego.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes, they have to in what they re doing.
2
SPEAKER_01
But that s really why we wanted to do this show in the first place.
2
SPEAKER_01
Because when we were first looking at egg freezing, or when I was, it was all so clinical.
2
SPEAKER_01
The brochures and exactly what you re talking about, counts, follicles.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s so cold.
2
SPEAKER_01
Very cold.
2
SPEAKER_01
And
2
SPEAKER_01
We wanted to show the version of two real people going through it and what that looked like.
2
SPEAKER_01
And it is very messy.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s manic.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s quite a series.
2
SPEAKER_01
But I m glad we did it because that s the reality of it is these ups and downs and these crying spells, just the raw emotion.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s the enormous sense of responsibility.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s the fact that even if you are joining each other, you each person with herself on some level.
2
SPEAKER_02
Each with herself is deciding, what am I doing with this?
2
SPEAKER_02
How far do I want to go?
2
SPEAKER_02
Why do you freeze eggs and not embryos is a question I have.
2
SPEAKER_02
We ve talked about that.
2
SPEAKER_02
You know, with freedom and choice comes responsibility.
2
SPEAKER_02
And it puts a lot of us women
2
SPEAKER_02
face to face with ourselves at a level that is really challenging.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s nice to be able to choose, but it s very awesome, burdensome in that sense to have so much of that choice or to realize the limitation of the choice.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
Stay tuned for more.
2
SPEAKER_01
If you dare.
2
SPEAKER_01
This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.
2
SPEAKER_01
And our lives are sponsored by BetterHelp.
2
SPEAKER_00
Gosh, for therapists, life doesn t come with a user manual.
2
SPEAKER_00
So when things aren t working for you, it s okay to feel stuck.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re not alone.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it s amazing when you can find someone who can help you through that difficult period.
2
SPEAKER_00
And BetterHelp, there s no better place to really find therapists that are trained to help you figure out the cause of challenging emotions and learn productive coping skills so that you can get through it.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I think a big hurdle for people is I don t know where to go to find one or it s expensive.
2
SPEAKER_01
And all of those things are true.
2
SPEAKER_01
But with BetterHelp, they re not.
2
SPEAKER_01
They re easy.
2
SPEAKER_01
BetterHelp is connected over three million people with licensed therapists.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s convenient.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s accessible.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s 100 percent online.
2
SPEAKER_01
You don t have to go anywhere.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s like a no brainer.
2
SPEAKER_00
Plus, it s affordable.
2
SPEAKER_00
and you just fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a therapist.
2
SPEAKER_00
And if things aren t working out, you can easily switch to a new therapist anytime.
2
SPEAKER_00
It really couldn t be simpler.
2
SPEAKER_00
There are no waiting rooms.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s no traffic.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s no endless searching for the right therapist.
2
SPEAKER_00
Learn more and save 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com slash fertility.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s betterhelp.com slash fertility.
2
SPEAKER_01
We are supported by Modern Fertility.
2
SPEAKER_01
Now, we re supposed to go to the OBGYN once a year for our annual checkups, but checking in with our fertility isn t usually a thing until we re ready for kids or struggling to get pregnant.
2
SPEAKER_01
But Modern Fertility was created so that you don t really have to wait to do any of this.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s an easy, affordable way to test your fertility hormones at home with a simple finger prick, mail it in with a prepaid label, and you ll get your personalized results within six business days.
2
SPEAKER_00
I love this so much because these appointments can be stressful.
2
SPEAKER_00
If you have a full life, it could be expensive or it could take up a lot of your time.
2
SPEAKER_00
And you ll get insights into your hormone levels, your ovarian reserve, which is how many eggs and follicles, which we didn t know going into this process.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and then you can kind of check with me when I was off the birth control and on, like I can check via this instead of having to go to the doctor and make an appointment.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s so easy.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so traditional hormone testing at a fertility clinic can be several hundred dollars.
2
SPEAKER_00
And Modern Fertility tests the same general set of hormones at a fraction of the price.
2
SPEAKER_00
So if you go to modernfertility.com slash raise to 35,
2
SPEAKER_00
You ll get 30 bucks off your test.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right now, Modern Fertility is offering our listeners $30 off the test when you go to modernfertility.com slash race to 35.
2
SPEAKER_01
This is a limited time offer for $30 off.
2
SPEAKER_01
Get $30 off your fertility test when you go to modernfertility.com slash race to 35. modernfertility.com slash race to 35.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was talking to Monica about this since we ve started posting about the episode.
2
SPEAKER_00
I now have, I don t know what to call these guys, like fertility guys or like egg freezing guys in my comments telling me, get married and have kids.
2
SPEAKER_00
Even if I m literally posting about pizza, maybe it s bots from Russia, but I don t know what that would be.
2
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t seem very politically motivated, but I do think it s interesting to talk about this, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
So one of the things that women will talk about the most with egg freezing is that it feels very isolating, especially if you re not doing it with a partner, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
And you tend to freeze your eggs because maybe you haven t found a partner.
2
SPEAKER_00
We know that that s the number one reason women freeze their eggs right now.
2
SPEAKER_00
And so there s this sense that you ve failed or this sense that no one picked you.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t know if I ve brought this up, but I think there was also an underlying anger for me.
2
SPEAKER_00
The fact that I have to do this makes me frustrated.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then I think there s a societal thing.
2
SPEAKER_00
As women are doing more things on their own, then do men feel even more obsolete?
2
SPEAKER_00
And I don t know, I m just wondering if you have any thoughts about how all of those emotions are at play in our relationships and particularly, again, for women who are going through this, how to deal with that sense that you re failing this ideal that your mom maybe was able to reach or that other women around you are able to reach, but you re not able to reach.
2
SPEAKER_02
The romantic ideal of I m going to find a partner and with that partner, I m going to have children.
2
SPEAKER_02
So it s different if you decide to freeze your eggs on your own versus if you are going to fertility treatments with a partner.
2
SPEAKER_02
You know, I think that they re parallel stories, but they re not the same.
2
SPEAKER_02
And it s different if you freeze at 22, 23 versus if you re in your middle 30s.
2
SPEAKER_02
That also is a different story.
2
SPEAKER_02
I don t think there is one way to answer this.
2
SPEAKER_02
I think the notion about I have to take care of myself, which on the one hand, I m happy I can do.
2
SPEAKER_02
I have the means.
2
SPEAKER_02
This is very expensive.
2
SPEAKER_02
Let s be honest about this.
2
SPEAKER_02
I can do this.
2
SPEAKER_02
I have the means.
2
SPEAKER_02
I have the know-how.
2
SPEAKER_02
I have the resources.
2
SPEAKER_02
I have my friend who s going through it with me.
2
SPEAKER_02
That is huge.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I shouldn t have had to do this.
2
SPEAKER_02
Why did this happen to me?
2
SPEAKER_02
This notion that the plot didn t go according to how I thought it would be.
2
SPEAKER_02
On the other hand, I did ask.
2
SPEAKER_02
to myself on my way here.
2
SPEAKER_02
What would have been the difference for you in freezing eggs versus freezing an embryo?
2
SPEAKER_02
Because when you freeze eggs, you still say, I m holding on for the partner.
2
SPEAKER_02
And then I m thinking, if you freeze the embryo, you know, besides the fact that you have more chances, it s a different decision making.
2
SPEAKER_02
It says it may not be based on finding a partner, which then again, you may say on the one hand, I have the freedom to be able to have a child on my own without being dependent.
2
SPEAKER_02
on a male partner, but I have the burden and the responsibility of having to decide this myself.
2
SPEAKER_02
And then I take this even a step further, and I would say almost half the people do not raise their children with the person they had the child with.
2
SPEAKER_02
So if we really want to take the story, the goal is not I want to have a child by myself.
2
SPEAKER_02
To have a child on your own doesn t mean that you have a child alone.
2
SPEAKER_02
And that would be dismantling this grip of the romantic ideal that it needs one partner with whom you re going to do this with, rather than
2
SPEAKER_02
I will have a child and I will have a community of people around me to raise this child with, including we could be two friends who will live in proximity where we can raise our children together.
2
SPEAKER_02
And we will continue to have our love life and find our partners as we go along.
2
SPEAKER_02
But it won t be the condition, because on some level you resent your dependency on having to find a man.
2
SPEAKER_02
You tie it to your future.
2
SPEAKER_02
You will resent them even more if you have forgone having a child because you didn t find Miss Charles, Prince Charles.
2
SPEAKER_02
Prince Charming, you know, and that plot becomes very twisted.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yes, exactly.
2
SPEAKER_01
You re starting off with so many resentments before you ve even started a relationship.
2
SPEAKER_02
Then it really is about fully liberating women to just say, if you don t find a partner, then have a child and create an alternative
2
SPEAKER_02
situation that allows you to raise this child with lots more support, maybe even than if you had one partner, because then you re completely released of the grip of the nuclear model as well.
2
SPEAKER_02
I would like to invite women who do the kinds of things that you are doing now in Freezing Your Ex to think even further in that sense, because all you re doing now is buying time.
2
SPEAKER_02
You re not changing the paradigm.
2
SPEAKER_02
Now, that is not a small thing.
2
SPEAKER_02
But if we really want to free something, then maybe we need to push this a little bit further into a change of the paradigm altogether.
2
SPEAKER_02
Then you re free to meet your partner anytime, but the partner is not your sperm donor.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s such a breakdown of the way we look at parenting and what it means to be a parent.
2
SPEAKER_01
We explored some of this during the show.
3
SPEAKER_01
But, you know, it s like, my kids share my genes with my husband s genes, and we re all one.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that makes it feel like we re extra connected.
3
SPEAKER_01
I buy into all of that, because we even talked about this after.
3
SPEAKER_01
We were kind of joking.
3
SPEAKER_01
And Liz was like, season two, we re going to pick out our sperm donors.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, no.
3
SPEAKER_01
I only have two eggs I m working with here.
3
SPEAKER_01
I can t.
3
SPEAKER_01
I can t quote unquote waste them.
3
SPEAKER_01
That s honestly how I thought of it.
3
SPEAKER_01
I can t waste them with some random sperm just to make sure that they freeze up well.
3
SPEAKER_02
It is about redefining family and redefining that a parent is not just there because of their genetic connection.
3
SPEAKER_02
It is the person who raises you, who takes care of you.
3
SPEAKER_02
That is a parent.
3
SPEAKER_02
And that doesn t necessarily get attached to genes.
3
SPEAKER_02
Plenty of genetic parents, biological parents who are not nearly that present.
3
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_02
So I think the main piece for me is to not see freezing eggs only as buying time.
3
SPEAKER_02
It has a bigger meaning than buying time.
3
SPEAKER_02
And it is the meaning that begins to open up a whole set of new possibilities for women, the same way that contraception opened up a whole set of new possibilities for women of my generation.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, that s interesting to think about it that way.
3
SPEAKER_00
When we started this, if you would have said sperm donor, I would have never even identified with that as a decision.
3
SPEAKER_00
Not even like a percent of me would have even considered it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And by the end of it, again, I m pitching a show where like, let s find sperm donors.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I got to a point, I don t think I told you this, but I was like, should I be freezing embryos?
3
SPEAKER_00
Should I just pick someone
3
SPEAKER_00
It is a logical next question.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s not a transgressive question.
3
SPEAKER_00
But it feels like a transgression because to your point, we ve expanded and progressed in terms of the technology, but we haven t expanded or progressed when it comes to our perspective.
3
SPEAKER_00
No, because the perspective is a real conceptual break.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s a paradigm shift in the literal sense of the word.
3
SPEAKER_02
And
3
SPEAKER_02
Every time, I mean, I remember the very idea of the IVF when for the first time you had a Petri dish and that conception actually took place outside.
3
SPEAKER_02
And that was a real mind twist.
3
SPEAKER_02
So we ve had these successions of mind twists that are very hard to grasp.
3
SPEAKER_02
And we re in the midst of that.
3
SPEAKER_02
But I do think that what you do opens up that possibility.
3
SPEAKER_01
Do you still, many years later, when you think back of the time when you were in the middle of all those processes, what s the feeling you have?
3
SPEAKER_01
I have different things.
3
SPEAKER_02
I can remember the cycle, you know, the 28 day cycle, the up, the down, the five years.
3
SPEAKER_02
So I can very instantly, physically remember it.
3
SPEAKER_02
I can remember the feeling of the relationship.
3
SPEAKER_02
The relationship has a kind of a developmental arc, and at some point it makes room
3
SPEAKER_02
for children to enter.
3
SPEAKER_02
And so it s literally you create a space in between and then that space doesn t get filled.
3
SPEAKER_02
So you try to go on a trip and you try to do some new project and you try to fill in the hole, to fill the blank because you don t just want to sit there and wait, but nothing fills it because it s not really what you want.
3
SPEAKER_02
So you are constantly aware of this loss, of this thing that isn t happening.
3
SPEAKER_02
I remember that vividly.
3
SPEAKER_02
I remember not allowing myself to think it s happening because, God forbid, if it doesn t happen, I will be disappointed.
3
SPEAKER_02
So I would do the same kind of mind tricks that you, Monica, were talking about.
3
SPEAKER_02
Like I didn t allow myself to get too excited.
3
SPEAKER_02
I always thought it didn t work, it didn t work, it didn t work.
3
SPEAKER_02
I have many very, very vivid memories
3
SPEAKER_02
almost 30 years later.
3
SPEAKER_02
So it doesn t go away.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I know that it has helped me understand loads of other women and couples that I have worked with and who ve had a range of different experiences because it didn t just happen.
3
SPEAKER_02
And when it doesn t just happen in the whatever just version, you become acutely aware of the multitude of things that can go wrong.
3
SPEAKER_02
This thing is a true miracle.
3
SPEAKER_01
It is.
3
SPEAKER_01
It truly is.
3
SPEAKER_02
There s so many things that can make it not happen.
3
SPEAKER_02
You kind of wonder why is it that other people just blow the air and they re pregnant.
3
SPEAKER_02
And here is other people who are like going through this.
3
SPEAKER_02
It touches on life and death.
3
SPEAKER_02
It touches on why these people and not those people.
3
SPEAKER_02
It touches on what does it mean to have a child?
3
SPEAKER_02
All of that.
3
SPEAKER_02
And it s very foundational.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s at the core of the human experience.
3
SPEAKER_02
I knew I wanted children.
3
SPEAKER_02
And by the way, when you then have a child, the child is imbued with a meaning too, because God knows what it took to get that kid.
3
SPEAKER_02
So it s not that it s over once you have the child.
3
SPEAKER_02
You remember what it took to have that child.
3
SPEAKER_02
And you look at that child with that story inside of you.
3
SPEAKER_02
And they begin to think of themselves with that story inside of them once they learn it.
3
SPEAKER_02
So this is intergenerational.
3
SPEAKER_02
This is not just fertility treatment.
3
SPEAKER_01
I ve had that thought a few times when I let myself really sit in it.
3
SPEAKER_01
I ll have like sometimes just these waves of like exhaustion and sadness.
3
SPEAKER_01
There s still a piece of me that s dealing with what happened.
3
SPEAKER_01
And when I had to edit the first episode, it took me like a month.
3
SPEAKER_01
to edit what ended up being an hour long episode.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, this would normally take me no time at all.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I would start, I would get six minutes in and I was like, I can t do it right now.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I would lie to myself and I d be like, oh, it s just cause it s like, it s chaotic and there s a lot more to it than my normal edits.
3
SPEAKER_01
And eventually I was like, no, it s just hard.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s just hard to revisit this.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s hard to hear myself
3
SPEAKER_01
Before I knew anything, before I knew any of the way it was going to go, before I let myself feel things, it was just painful.
3
SPEAKER_01
It was really painful.
3
SPEAKER_01
And like, okay, I got to go through all these emotions again, felt very daunting.
3
SPEAKER_02
But it is a cycle of strength collection after you mourn this and
3
SPEAKER_02
And then you come in kind of the level of acceptance.
3
SPEAKER_02
And then at some point you begin to feel that the energy is mounting again about doing it again.
3
SPEAKER_02
And it s a rhythm you feel internally.
3
SPEAKER_02
And then you garner your strengths again.
3
SPEAKER_02
And you prepare yourself, you brace yourself to go through the next cycle.
3
SPEAKER_02
And then you do this kind of small hopes, medium size hope, big size hope.
3
SPEAKER_02
And you know, you can t go the next day.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s why when the nurse began to give you all the options, you basically went numb.
3
SPEAKER_02
It was too much to take in.
3
SPEAKER_02
You were flooded, overwhelmed.
3
SPEAKER_02
Nothing could enter.
3
SPEAKER_02
You needed to first let this thing go before new ideas, new interventions and all of that can enter.
3
SPEAKER_02
So the story is not over.
3
SPEAKER_02
But it s not just the story of intervention.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
And isn t the last stage of grief meaning?
3
SPEAKER_00
It was like added later that you make meaning out of the experience.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I feel like for you, it s really, there s a lot that you processed and got out of it.
3
SPEAKER_01
It was a gift.
3
SPEAKER_01
I m not regretful at all that I did it or that we did or that we did it in this way.
3
SPEAKER_01
It taught me a lot about what I do really want.
3
SPEAKER_01
And to your point, there s been a few moments where I ve let myself think about those
3
SPEAKER_01
two eggs and they re sitting in some freezer.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I m like, what if my child is one of those two eggs?
3
SPEAKER_01
How special, how special if that yields a life.
3
SPEAKER_01
It feels like magic.
3
SPEAKER_01
I ve talked to a few people who I ve told this story to and they re like, yeah, my friend got one egg and that s her kid.
3
SPEAKER_01
So I ve had some hopeful stories along the way.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I think, oh, that baby is
3
SPEAKER_01
special.
3
SPEAKER_02
You go back and forth when you hear the magical stories of others.
3
SPEAKER_02
Sometimes you say, me too, could happen to me.
3
SPEAKER_02
And sometimes you say, no, this will never happen to me.
3
SPEAKER_02
And you go back and forth.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, you re right.
3
SPEAKER_02
In Fertility Land, it s filled with stories of the people who defeated the odds.
3
SPEAKER_02
But there s a whole bunch of other stories.
3
SPEAKER_02
And we don t hear about them because the people who didn t make it don t speak nearly as loud as the people who did.
3
SPEAKER_02
So we have to be very careful.
3
SPEAKER_01
No, that s so true.
3
SPEAKER_01
And in some ways, I mean, of course, I wish there were different outcomes here, but I m kind of glad that we did this out loud in this way and that people do hear there s disappointment.
3
SPEAKER_01
There s often disappointment.
3
SPEAKER_01
Honestly, in this case, there was disappointment across the board.
3
SPEAKER_01
Neither of us were super happy with the result.
3
SPEAKER_01
And one was fairly devastating.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that s the reality of what we re working with here.
3
SPEAKER_01
And like you said, we just don t have the control that we wish we had.
3
SPEAKER_01
I mean, this is just a recurring theme in life that we re having to learn over and over again every day is we don t really have any
3
SPEAKER_02
When you think about doing it again and all of that, do you think about the economics of it?
3
SPEAKER_02
Because I think for a lot of people, that is a major part, right?
3
SPEAKER_02
It s huge.
3
SPEAKER_02
I mean, this is not covered.
3
SPEAKER_02
It is not cheap.
3
SPEAKER_02
Most insurances.
3
SPEAKER_02
I mean, we are
3
SPEAKER_02
in the United States of America.
3
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
3
SPEAKER_01
That was another thing I almost felt guilty about even doing this.
3
SPEAKER_01
We talked about this.
3
SPEAKER_01
We re like, it s so expensive.
3
SPEAKER_01
And a lot of our comments are like that.
3
SPEAKER_01
You re so lucky to be able to even do it.
3
SPEAKER_01
And we know that.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that was when I didn t, I was like, okay, so I basically got zero and I ve spent so much money and my body
4
SPEAKER_02
is wrecked and I m very angry that I gave so much and got so little in that moment and got nothing.
4
SPEAKER_02
It is a mindfuck, but I mean, I will say I m so lucky that I could do it again and not have to worry too much about the financial element of it.
4
SPEAKER_01
And what do they recommend in terms of how much time you have to wait?
4
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
4
SPEAKER_02
So this was a big piece of it for me.
4
SPEAKER_02
I was on birth control up until I started this process and I was on Yasmin.
4
SPEAKER_02
And that was a whole thing because when I went in for my consultation, I asked, do I need to get off of this?
4
SPEAKER_02
And she said, I would.
4
SPEAKER_02
And I said, do I have to, because I really didn t want to, because I ve had,
4
SPEAKER_02
such a rollercoaster of an experience getting on and off birth control with my skin.
4
SPEAKER_02
And it has been a horrible, you know, since I was a teenager ride.
4
SPEAKER_02
And I know what happens when I get off of this birth control.
4
SPEAKER_02
And I did not want to do it.
4
SPEAKER_02
And I really didn t want to do it because I m preparing myself for the worst.
4
SPEAKER_02
And I m like, well, this might not even work out.
4
SPEAKER_02
And then my face is going to blow up.
4
SPEAKER_02
And she was like, you don t have to.
4
SPEAKER_02
I would just recommend it because it might affect your count.
4
SPEAKER_02
So I didn t.
4
SPEAKER_02
And then I got off right before, obviously, and now I m off of it because now I m understanding the weight of what I really want and what I don t and what I m willing to sacrifice and what I m not.
4
SPEAKER_02
That s another gift I got from it.
4
SPEAKER_02
I want that more than I want this.
4
SPEAKER_02
So I m off of it and I m going to be off of it for at least four months before trying it again so that my body can sort of really clear out.
4
SPEAKER_02
If I do it again, it will probably be the top of next year.
4
SPEAKER_02
What are you thinking about doing?
4
SPEAKER_03
My thinking was against insurance policy.
4
SPEAKER_03
But then as I keep dating and not meeting the right person, I m like, I m getting older and older.
4
SPEAKER_03
Maybe this won t just be an insurance policy.
4
SPEAKER_03
Maybe this will be necessary.
4
SPEAKER_03
And I ve been thinking about it in terms of, well, if I do it again, I should do embryos.
4
SPEAKER_03
That s a whole conversation.
4
SPEAKER_03
Again, I m having a lot of conversations with myself.
4
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_03
It s also knowing what you want.
4
SPEAKER_03
can be a curse in a way.
4
SPEAKER_03
The older I get, the harder it is to date already because I know myself so much more.
4
SPEAKER_03
And now I feel like, again, the gift of this experience, because I started off with the same level of ambivalence about kids to literally having this vision of my future child with me in the surgery room and being brought to tears and having this almost out-of-body experience.
4
SPEAKER_03
So now that I know exactly what I want, it s so hard to just be casual and to have fun.
4
SPEAKER_03
and to just enjoy people when in the back of my mind, I m like, are you going to be the person that I want to do this thing with?
4
SPEAKER_03
And maybe then doing sperm donor means I m taking that pressure off.
4
SPEAKER_03
There s just so much, right?
4
SPEAKER_03
Isn t the whole point of dating to have fun?
4
SPEAKER_03
And then that s how you re going to meet the person by not putting all these expectations on them.
4
SPEAKER_03
But then the clock is ticking.
4
SPEAKER_01
Look, there s not one route to Rome, but
4
SPEAKER_01
I remember thoughts that I had, which was, if I didn t have a partner, what would I do?
4
SPEAKER_01
And I had chosen in my head.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then I had conversations with a couple of gay friends of mine that I knew wanted children.
4
SPEAKER_01
We re talking 80s, so in a different period, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
Actually, it s more early 90s.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I remember saying,
4
SPEAKER_01
are other ways.
4
SPEAKER_01
The freedom of knowing that you re not bound by the singular story takes off a tremendous amount of pressure.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s not which one, it s the fact that you know that there isn t just one.
4
SPEAKER_01
Because at this point, every time you re going to meet somebody, you re going to ask yourself if this is the person that you want to connect with the eggs.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it s not a good option.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s not a good thing for you.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s not a good thing for many times when you meet someone, they feel that too.
4
SPEAKER_01
And nobody wants to be a sperm bank just like that either.
4
SPEAKER_01
You feel that pressure and everything gets contracted.
4
SPEAKER_01
If you instantly meet, I have a clock, I have a clock, even though I don t have the clock in the way that I would have had it if I hadn t frozen my eggs, you know, now that I know that this is what I want.
4
SPEAKER_01
I have moved a little bit about this in my head.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think that sometimes you start on your own and then that liberates and it separates the two stories.
4
SPEAKER_01
Family making and the love story and romantic partner are no longer just part of the same sequential plot that gives a certain power to the man,
4
SPEAKER_01
by the sheer biology that they don t have the same pressure that you have.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that then makes you resent them for it, but also need them for it.
4
SPEAKER_01
And this whole complicated thing.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think that as it is, we should not necessarily raise our kids alone as in alone with one person.
4
SPEAKER_01
I really think that these days, more than ever, we have to go back because we don t have the other institutions helping us to more communal structures for raising kids.
4
SPEAKER_01
People are alone when they do fertility treatments or when they do egg freezing.
4
SPEAKER_01
They are alone when they re pregnant.
4
SPEAKER_01
They re alone when they give birth.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s too much of this alone, you know, when in fact there are other ways of doing this.
4
SPEAKER_01
So that s my thing to you is that if you find yourself with that pressure, I need you and I resent the fact that I have to need you and the power that you have over me and I don t want it, but I have to, then you re going to get really stuck.
4
SPEAKER_01
My thinking with you is how do I bring in an alternative story in here, any other options that you can have, because otherwise it s not necessarily going to happen.
4
SPEAKER_03
And that the story that s going to unfold could actually be better than the story that I thought.
4
SPEAKER_01
You will start, you will meet someone, that person enters your life, raises the child with you, you have other kids with that person.
4
SPEAKER_01
The plot is
4
SPEAKER_01
not linear, so that this is not just a clock system.
4
SPEAKER_01
This is really an emancipatory system.
4
SPEAKER_03
And even with Monica, maybe by the time you do this a second time, who knows?
4
SPEAKER_01
Maybe there ll be someone in your life.
4
SPEAKER_02
I also think that it s just like kind of putting your money where your mouth is.
4
SPEAKER_02
Both of us, especially you, are really smart, hardcore feminists.
4
SPEAKER_02
We own that narrative.
4
SPEAKER_02
outward, but it s about our actions really matching those words, I think, and we need to do that.
4
SPEAKER_02
And so to everyone listening and me who did this and sits with the feeling of failure, what advice can you give for processing that?
4
SPEAKER_01
Failure comes from the notion that I am in charge of this.
4
SPEAKER_01
I can control this.
4
SPEAKER_01
I ve got this.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it s just me who can tweak the whole thing.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it s very hard to not fall into the failure trap.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s I m failing.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s my body s failing.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s my body s betraying me.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s a whole system of negatives like that.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I think if you go through it, but you very quickly begin to realize, no, it s humbling.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s not a failure.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s a humbling experience that I do everything I can, but there s a piece of it that isn t in my hands and neither in the hands of the doctor for the matter.
4
SPEAKER_01
I roll the dice.
4
SPEAKER_01
And there s a piece of it in which there is chance.
4
SPEAKER_01
Chance and my biology.
4
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it s not just luck.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s whatever is happening at that moment.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I think that that is a gradual progression that you come to.
4
SPEAKER_01
At first you feel like, oof, I failed.
4
SPEAKER_01
Then it goes from I failed to it didn t happen.
4
SPEAKER_01
Then from it didn t happen to it didn t happen this time.
4
SPEAKER_01
From it didn t happen this time to maybe it will happen next time.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think the whole process is a process of acceptance, step by step, that it s not going to be the big story.
4
SPEAKER_01
I meet, we fall in love, we make love under the full moon, we have this kid, we decide that that child, you know.
4
SPEAKER_01
My second one was conceived on the roofs in Morocco somewhere.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it s like, I get the plot.
4
SPEAKER_01
I understand the story, you know?
4
SPEAKER_01
So, but the story is not just this.
4
SPEAKER_01
The I failed starts with Liz as well.
4
SPEAKER_01
She has that piece in there too, because we are so programmed to be on this very narrow path of how things should happen that anything short of that makes us feel that we are the mistake and we are the failure.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that is so crippling.
4
SPEAKER_01
So you free yourself moment by moment, but it also is a mourning of all the things that will not be this way.
4
SPEAKER_01
And if it is not this system, then some people later on, it becomes adoption.
4
SPEAKER_01
But you can only think about the next option when you have fully given up on the one before.
4
SPEAKER_01
And the one before was the, in my twenties, I m going to find, you know, that s where this one begins.
4
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t begin at the egg freezing.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you re right.
4
SPEAKER_00
You re right.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
You have to like go over the old story for the new story to begin.
4
SPEAKER_00
Or else you re stuck.
4
SPEAKER_00
Step, step.
4
SPEAKER_01
So even the egg freezing comes out of an acceptance of the previous option that didn t happen.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so we took this option.
4
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
So it s mourning and regeneration, mourning and regeneration.
4
SPEAKER_02
So helpful.
4
SPEAKER_02
I knew it would be.
4
SPEAKER_02
Like a warm hug.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
Do you have anything else you want to add before we re finished here?
5
SPEAKER_00
what you do.
5
SPEAKER_00
First of all, the fact that you make this a public thing.
5
SPEAKER_00
I think the fact that you chose to do it together, because so many women go through this alone, find themselves at 7am in the morning at the clinics by themselves.
5
SPEAKER_00
And on occasion, a warm, kind nurse will ask, how are you doing today or what s happening?
5
SPEAKER_00
But to just cheer each other on is a magnificent decision.
5
SPEAKER_00
I wish many other women would do it like that.
5
SPEAKER_00
The solidarity
5
SPEAKER_00
And then the sharing of the story with other women so that we take women out of secrecy, out of silence, and also give them the option to talk about it to the people they meet.
5
SPEAKER_00
You know, what do you do when you tell your next date, I froze my eggs?
5
SPEAKER_00
What s that conversation like?
5
SPEAKER_00
Why did I do that?
5
SPEAKER_00
How does that affect you?
5
SPEAKER_00
Et cetera, et cetera.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, there s so many
5
SPEAKER_00
other pieces to this, but you can t think about it when you re in the midst of making sure that you ve got the count.
5
SPEAKER_00
The count is so hypnotic.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I cheer you and keep me posted.
5
SPEAKER_01
Okay, thank you.
5
SPEAKER_01
We will.
5
SPEAKER_01
Thanks so much.
5
SPEAKER_01
OK, so that is a wrap on Race to 35.
5
SPEAKER_01
I want to thank everyone who listened and all the kind words of encouragement and support that people have been sending our way.
5
SPEAKER_01
It really means a lot.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I hope that this process is helpful to some of you moving forward.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I hope you can all remember that we can do hard things.
5
SPEAKER_01
So have a very happy holidays and a happy new year.
5
SPEAKER_01
We might see you again.
5
you