1
SPEAKER_00
 you, looking at somebody else in the room, staring at somebody else, not really being attentive, being there.
1
SPEAKER_00
Look for hearing little sharp, sarcastic remarks that aren't humorous necessarily.
1
SPEAKER_00
They've got a cutting edge.
1
SPEAKER_00
Watch out for criticism.
1
SPEAKER_00
Watch out for somebody who's unreliable and then doesn't apologize, doesn't take responsibility for it.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Somebody who's unreliable over and over and over again.
1
SPEAKER_00
If it's a pattern, forget it.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, everybody can have an emergency every now and then.
1
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
But if it's pattern, you don't deserve that.
1
SPEAKER_00
You deserve much more.
1
SPEAKER_00
You deserve somebody who's really there when they say they're going to be there with their whole being.
1
SPEAKER_06
 So trustworthiness, kindness, generosity, real interest in you.
1
SPEAKER_06
And I think also an ease of being able to be together.
1
SPEAKER_06
It should feel good to be together.
1
SPEAKER_06
And you should feel a sense of love and affection.
1
SPEAKER_06
Love?
1
SPEAKER_06
Well, not on the very first date, but eventually as a characteristic of that person.
1
SPEAKER_06
 That person is a loving person.
1
SPEAKER_06
I know one of the things that really impressed me about Julie was when she made dinner for me the first time I moved her cat off a chair so I could sit on it and the cat walked into the kitchen and complained and I could tell the cat was saying
1
SPEAKER_06
 Who the heck is this guy?
1
SPEAKER_06
Who does he think he is?
1
SPEAKER_06
He moved me off my favorite chair.
1
SPEAKER_06
And I could tell that this cat was really being treated well by Julie.
1
SPEAKER_06
She was a very kind person.
1
SPEAKER_06
I really grew to love that cat.
1
SPEAKER_06
We called her sassy.
1
SPEAKER_06
There's just those moments where you can tell
1
SPEAKER_06
 and your partner is really a person of substance and character.
1
SPEAKER_00
Can I bring up one other thing that I really caution some of my clients to look out for, which is how do they treat somebody who's serving them?
1
SPEAKER_00
How do they treat a waiter or a server, a waitress?
1
SPEAKER_00
How do they treat a clerk?
1
SPEAKER_00
If the person, if the helper is delayed for some reason or can't,
1
SPEAKER_00
 immediately uh, give them what they want.
1
SPEAKER_00
How do they respond to that?
1
SPEAKER_00
Are they understanding?
1
SPEAKER_00
Are they patient?
1
SPEAKER_00
Are they courteous?
1
SPEAKER_00
Are they kind?
1
SPEAKER_00
Or are they pulling a superior punch basically and cutting them down?
1
SPEAKER_00
That is a great way to note the nature of somebody's inner being.
1
SPEAKER_05
 Those are great answers, actually, because I think what you spoke about there is the key kind of core values of looking for trustworthiness, kindness, reliability.
1
SPEAKER_05
Often, these are the things that we don't think about at all, because we're so wrapped up in either just being physically attracted, or we're just wrapped up in what they do for a living, or what they're wearing, all that kind of stuff.
1
SPEAKER_05
I wondered though, something you said, Julie, really got me thinking was,
1
SPEAKER_05
 you know, why is it that we're so attracted to people who play hard to get?
1
SPEAKER_05
Like, what is it that's so attractive?
1
SPEAKER_05
I was just speaking to someone the other day that I was working with, and she was saying the same thing.
1
SPEAKER_05
She was like, I just want a wild card, you know?
1
SPEAKER_05
I just want someone who's just, you know, like, keeps me on my toes kind of feeling.
1
SPEAKER_05
Like, you know, someone who's got that kind of superiority edge to them who may be a bit, you know, almost like,
1
SPEAKER_05
 arrogant or quirky confident, but slightly on the side of that playing hard to get.
1
SPEAKER_05
Why is it, first of all, first question to both of you, why is it that we find that person so attractive?
1
SPEAKER_05
And second of all, why do we keep chasing that person even though we know the negatives that come with it?
1
SPEAKER_05
Or what are the negatives that come with it?
1
SPEAKER_00
 Great question.
1
SPEAKER_00
I think the answer is complex and it depends on the individual, of course.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I'll stereotype just a wee bit.
1
SPEAKER_00
On the surface, that's what we've seen in movies.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's what we've seen on TV.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's what we've got kind of programmed over thousands and thousands of hours of that kind of demonstration of hard to get.
1
SPEAKER_00
But on a deeper level,
1
SPEAKER_00
 I've never found somebody who was really, really well loved in their earlier life who has sought somebody who seems to be unavailable.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Okay, so what that means is that when we're not emotionally comforted by either parent or caretaker, when our feelings aren't listened to, when our needs aren't listened to, when we're expected to be obedient and just be quiet and always be chipper and cheerful and da-da-da-da-da, but we feel distant
1
SPEAKER_00
 really distant from those caretakers who don't seem to know our inner world at all, that's what we grow accustomed to.
1
SPEAKER_00
And even though we don't want to repeat that, it is like a magnetic draw.
1
SPEAKER_00
It's like putting on an old coat that's full of holes, and it may be cold for us to wear it,
1
SPEAKER_00
 But it's very comfortable because it's very familiar and we know how to handle it.
1
SPEAKER_00
We recognize it As opposed to somebody who's right there who's pursuing us who obviously really wants us That is like being on an alien planet and it's very scary.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so we back away Interesting
1
SPEAKER_06
 A lot of times, compared to our generation, people today are having sex very quickly.
1
SPEAKER_06
Part of the problem is that when you do that, you both secrete oxytocin after an orgasm.
1
SPEAKER_06
Oxytocin makes you feel artificially safe.
1
SPEAKER_06
 and you ignore the red flags, it's also the hormone of bad judgment.
1
SPEAKER_06
And so a lot of times people are ignoring red flags like the person really isn't interested in you.
1
SPEAKER_06
And you keep thinking it's gonna be okay because that hormone makes you feel safe and secure.
1
SPEAKER_06
And you don't see the red flags that person is sending saying, I'm not trustworthy.
1
SPEAKER_06
 I do not like you very much.
1
SPEAKER_06
I am an arrogant person and I will reject you.
1
SPEAKER_06
I am a judgmental person and I find fault with everyone.
1
SPEAKER_06
You ignore those red flags, unfortunately.
1
SPEAKER_06
I am so glad you brought that up.
1
SPEAKER_05
 Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up because I think that's one of the reasons why when people have makeup sex, for example, whenever they argue, it's the same thing happening, right?
1
SPEAKER_05
It's just substituting.
1
SPEAKER_05
And I think we hear this rhetoric of like, you can't substitute a real relationship just with a physical relationship, but knowing the science behind it is fascinating.
1
SPEAKER_05
And
1
SPEAKER_05
 and makes it completely clear that this is not a spiritual or a well-being tip.
1
SPEAKER_05
This is actually a scientific chemical reaction to what's actually happening, that we're convincing ourselves that things are falsely safe.
1
SPEAKER_05
 Yeah, that's fascinating to hear it from that perspective.
1
SPEAKER_05
I've never heard that before.
1
SPEAKER_05
I love that.
1
SPEAKER_05
I want to move on.
1
SPEAKER_05
We've talked about dating, which I think is really useful.
1
SPEAKER_05
Everyone who's listening or watching right now, I hope that this is answering a lot of the questions you've been asking me, and hence I'm asking the experts, Dr. John and Julie Gottman.
1
SPEAKER_05
I want to recommend that book.
1
SPEAKER_05
We will dive more into The Eight Dates, which is The Essential Conversations for a Lifetime of Love.
1
SPEAKER_05
I definitely want you to recommend reading that book.
1
SPEAKER_05
 But I want to dive into more about now, like long-term relationships and marriage, because I think that as we progress through, I'm trying to take a chronological view to a relationship.
1
SPEAKER_05
Tell us about this.
1
SPEAKER_05
And I know, John, this is more in your field, but Julia, of course, I welcome your answers throughout.
1
SPEAKER_05
It's fascinating that through your research, you were able to predict with over 90% accuracy which couples were going to divorce.
1
SPEAKER_05
That is mind-blowing to me.
1
SPEAKER_05
Like, that's incredible.
1
SPEAKER_06
 Well, I tell you, I was as surprised by it as you are.
1
SPEAKER_06
So this is based on research that I did for over 40 years with my best friend, Robert Levinson, who's a professor of psychology at Berkeley, UC Berkeley.
1
SPEAKER_06
And Bob and I,
1
SPEAKER_06
 did some of the first research that collected physiological data from couples as they were talking to each other.
1
SPEAKER_06
And we just had them come in and talk about how their day went after they'd been apart for eight hours and deal with a conflict issue and a positive topic, and then followed them for many years.
1
SPEAKER_06
 And we found that it was really quite easy to predict the future of relationship.
1
SPEAKER_06
That first study, we really didn't have any predictions, but we found just serendipitously that people whose relationships didn't last had a much higher heart rate when they talked to each other.
1
SPEAKER_06
Their blood was flowing faster.
1
SPEAKER_06
They were sweating more from the palms of their hands.
1
SPEAKER_06
And what was making them
1
SPEAKER_06
 more physiological reactive was that they were much more hostile to one another.
1
SPEAKER_06
They were angry, they were contemptuous, they were defensive, they were critical of their partner, they put their partner down, and it was that escalation of negativity that really was related to what was going on in their bodies.
1
SPEAKER_06
They were in fight or flight,
1
SPEAKER_06
 And so the combination of looking how they talk to each other and what was going on physiologically turned out to be a reliable predictor.
1
SPEAKER_06
And Bob and I did seven studies looking at this, looking at gay and lesbian couples, looking at couples in their 40s and their 60s, following them for as long as 20 years.
1
SPEAKER_06
 looking at 130 newlyweds, Julie and I designed an apartment lab together in Seattle.
1
SPEAKER_06
And, you know, we watched these couples as they had their first babies and interacted with their babies and watched the babies develop too.
1
SPEAKER_06
So that was the line of research.
1
SPEAKER_06
And it's been true that
1
SPEAKER_06
 prediction is very strong and marital interaction is very stable.
1
SPEAKER_06
It has 80% stability.
1
SPEAKER_06
When we bring a couple in six years later, 12 years later, 18 years later, you know, we find 80% stability over time without intervention.
1
SPEAKER_06
And for the last 25 years, Julie and I have been working together on
1
SPEAKER_06
 you know, can we intervene and help couples?
1
SPEAKER_06
Can we prevent relationship disaster?
1
SPEAKER_06
And we've been finding that we absolutely can.
1
SPEAKER_06
So that line of research really tells a wonderful story because we really can discriminate between the masters of relationship and the disasters of relationship.
1
SPEAKER_06
We can prevent the disasters and we can help people who are disasters
1
SPEAKER_00
 Not all the time, but at least 80 something percent of the time turn their relationships around Let me just add one thing the moral to the story is that john and I are not relationship gurus
1
SPEAKER_00
 take us down off the pedestal.
1
SPEAKER_00
The real gurus were the successful couples that we studied.
1
SPEAKER_00
Out of 3,000 couples, a great big percentage of those were successful.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so the interventions that we then created later on, which we're now wrapping into an app with our company Effective Software,
1
SPEAKER_00
 incorporated is based on what those successful couples did.
1
SPEAKER_00
Right.
1
SPEAKER_00
Which is, you know, miraculous.
1
SPEAKER_00
They were the ones who really taught John and me how to have a good marriage, as well as what we could then take and help other couples.
1
SPEAKER_05
Yeah, absolutely.
1
SPEAKER_05
No, absolutely.
1
SPEAKER_05
But it is
1
SPEAKER_05
 It is the studying of, you know, you're asking all the right questions.
1
SPEAKER_05
And I think that's why I value your studies so much is because.
1
SPEAKER_05
 you're looking at people over a long period of time, you're looking at them through key transitions in their life, key changes in their life.
1
SPEAKER_05
And that's where a lot of the pressure comes from.
1
SPEAKER_05
And, you know, I'm fascinated because you both talk about unhealthy relationships.
1
SPEAKER_05
You say there's a practice of this five to one positive to negative ratio.
1
SPEAKER_05
Can you elaborate on that and break that down for us so that people who may be listening to this right now and thinking, you know what, I kind of sound like one of those couples.
1
SPEAKER_05
Like I kind of sound like,
1
SPEAKER_05
 one of those couples that we're probably going down the disaster route.
1
SPEAKER_05
We're not quite there yet, but we're going down that route.
1
SPEAKER_05
How can we intervene almost through this?
1
SPEAKER_06
Let me also add that I've kept track of my own hypotheses over time, and it turns out I'm wrong 60% of the time.
1
SPEAKER_06
Julie's right.
1
SPEAKER_06
It's really the data that are informing us.
1
SPEAKER_06
 We make a lot of mistakes in prediction, mostly we're wrong.
1
SPEAKER_06
And if we didn't do the research, we think we were right a hundred percent of the time, but we're mostly wrong.
1
SPEAKER_06
And it's the data that's correcting us.
1
SPEAKER_06
So you want to answer that five to one?
1
SPEAKER_00
Sure.
1
SPEAKER_00
So first of all, let's be really clear that five to one is a ratio applied to when you're discussing a problem.
1
SPEAKER_00
 a conflict area, first of all.
1
SPEAKER_00
And the ratio represents how many times you have a positive interaction compared to a negative interaction.
1
SPEAKER_00
And what we've learned is that the successful couples have at least five times as many positive interactions and responses to each other.
1
SPEAKER_00
 as negative ones.
1
SPEAKER_00
And by negative, we're talking about what we call the four horsemen of the apocalypse.
1
SPEAKER_00
Things like criticism, contempt, defensiveness, totally shutting down and becoming totally non-responsive, being more hostile toward the other person.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And what this shows is that negativity, it's kind of like negativity weighs a whole lot, a whole lot.
1
SPEAKER_00
So you've got to have five times as many positive things to outweigh that one negative thing in order to keep the relationship feeling good for both of you and for the conflict to feel more gentle and constructive.
1
SPEAKER_00
 And in ordinary, just kind of discussing the events of the day, for example, the ratio needs to be about 20 to one.
1
SPEAKER_00
 So mostly a nice, rich culture of fondness, appreciation, saying thank you a lot, giving each other compliments, really listening to one another, turning towards each other's little bids for interest or connection are really the secrets of those successful couples.
1
SPEAKER_06
Well, and eye contact and nodding your head like you're doing as you listen to us.
1
SPEAKER_06
Positive things.
1
SPEAKER_05
 Yeah, I'm very interested.
1
SPEAKER_06
Great smile.
1
SPEAKER_06
All those nonverbal things really lubricate the wheels of interaction.
1
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 This is the story of how a group of people brought music back to Afghanistan by creating their own version of American Idol.
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1
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1
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1
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1
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1
SPEAKER_04
Things like, when did America start dialing 911?
1
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Is William Shatner's best acting work in Esperanto?
1
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Also, what happened to Esperanto?
1
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1
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1
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And of course, is there an Illuminati of cheese?
1
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1
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1
SPEAKER_03
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1
SPEAKER_05
Yeah, no, I think it's everything you're saying is
1
SPEAKER_05
 It's so wonderful to hear it from the data point of view.
1
SPEAKER_05
I do really love the fact that you keep bringing it back to the data and the research because that just gives me more confidence that all these habits and principles that we want people to develop like emotional intelligence and the ability to listen and the ability to
1
SPEAKER_05
 be vulnerable enough to notice beauty in your partner or congratulate them or celebrate them.
1
SPEAKER_05
I think these are such beautiful habits that are often seen as such soft skills, but actually from the data, they're very strong and powerful.
1
SPEAKER_05
What you're both saying, I'm intrigued actually though from what you both said.
1
SPEAKER_05
When was there a hypothesis you had or a belief that you think
1
SPEAKER_05
 the world strongly has about relationships that actually the data completely disproves.
1
SPEAKER_05
What was like the most shocking or surprising one where you were like?
1
SPEAKER_06
One of the ones that was really shocking was that when couples are talking about an area of conflict, and they're neutral, they're not showing any emotion, that's good.
1
SPEAKER_06
So that if you can stay calm, and you can really present your point of view,
1
SPEAKER_06
 unemotionally.
1
SPEAKER_06
 it turns out to be very constructive.
1
SPEAKER_06
So most people were saying, you want to see fire and passion, you know, otherwise it's a dead relationship.
1
SPEAKER_06
Not true at all.
1
SPEAKER_06
If you would be, if you could be kind and gentle and even neutral, that was a good thing.
1
SPEAKER_06
So it was the, the, um, reflection of calm as they talk to each other that turned out to be so important.
1
SPEAKER_06
And that was really surprising.
1
SPEAKER_00
 But I want to be sure that our listeners don't think that expressing anger is a bad thing.
1
SPEAKER_00
That is not true.
1
SPEAKER_00
So being passionate, being intense, expressing anger and so on is fine depending on how you voice it.
1
SPEAKER_00
 So, if you're expressing anger with an I statement that describes how you feel, as opposed to pointing a finger at your partner and describing them as flawed or to blame, that's very different.
1
SPEAKER_00
Very different.
1
SPEAKER_00
So, there may be a lot of passion in saying, I'm furious about this.
1
SPEAKER_00
God bless it.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, I can't take this anymore.
1
SPEAKER_00
 Well, you're describing yourself and that's okay.
1
SPEAKER_00
That's a fine way to express anger and anger is a very normal human emotion.
1
SPEAKER_00
So we're not trying to say that you should have a frontal lobotomy and become Dr. Spock.
1
SPEAKER_00
 We're saying, do your best to be calm, to be gentle, but also to be real with what you're feeling, as long as you describe yourself and not go into criticism of your partner.
1
SPEAKER_05
 I think that's a great distinction.
1
SPEAKER_05
I'm really, really happy you made that point because I think you're spot on that.
1
SPEAKER_05
For a lot of people, they won't be able to achieve that neutrality, but if you are going to be angry and passionate, then it needs to be reflective of how you feel as opposed to the other person's weaknesses or flaws or mistakes or wrongdoings.
1
SPEAKER_05
I think that's such a useful thing to remember in an argument.
1
SPEAKER_05
 That's such a useful thing to remember in an argument, because I think from a defensive point of view, it's so easy to start blaming the other person.
1
SPEAKER_05
And I love the way, Julie, you described the five to one, because I think the reason why I like those small insights is because I feel for so many people, sometimes it's the opposite, where someone does one thing right and five things wrong, but because they do one thing right, you kind of overshadow all the five things that go wrong.
1
SPEAKER_05
 And so often that ratio is flipped the other way.
1
SPEAKER_05
And because that becomes your norm, you just become so grateful for that one thing that goes right.
1
SPEAKER_05
You keep almost accepting a challenging relationship and situation.
1
SPEAKER_05
So I really love the way you both clarified those.
1
SPEAKER_05
And you also said that 69% of conflicts in marriages are never solved.
1
SPEAKER_05
 When I read that, I was like, oh, I want to know why that is, but also what can couples do to really understand what it is that needs solving?
1
SPEAKER_05
Because it's so true.
1
SPEAKER_05
But yeah, so let's go into why that is, because couples argue, they fight, they discuss stuff.
1
SPEAKER_05
Why is it never solved?
1
SPEAKER_00
And second of all, how can we start solving this?
1
SPEAKER_00
 Okay, great.
1
SPEAKER_00
Great question.
1
SPEAKER_00
So this again came out of the data where when couples were brought in, you know, every two or three years and asked to discuss a problem, they would be discussing exactly the same problem for over 20 years.
1
SPEAKER_00
And the only thing that would change was their fashion and their hairstyle.
1
SPEAKER_00
That was it.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, now everybody's in sweatpants when they have these calls.
1
SPEAKER_00
 So, you know, what we saw is that there were this 69% of problems that never got solved.
1
SPEAKER_00
And what we then understood is that, first of all, they're based on lifestyle preferences.
1
SPEAKER_00
 So differences in lifestyle and differences in personality as well.
1
SPEAKER_00
And they often have beneath the surface, they have some underlying dream, some underlying yearning,
1
SPEAKER_00
 that may be related to their earlier history, may be related to either positive history or negative history, traumatic history sometimes, but often these perpetual problems
1
SPEAKER_00
 The the positions have these deep Seated roots in them that also sometimes are existential What gives that person a sense of meaning and purpose?
1
SPEAKER_00
in life so We discovered that no, we're not going to solve these problems but what couples can do is develop their understanding for the other person's position at a much deeper level and
1
SPEAKER_00
 and out of that understanding, develop compassion enough that they can then form little temporary compromises around the edges of the issue.
1
SPEAKER_00
So let me give you an example.
1
SPEAKER_00
 um so john and i are very very very different i'm super adventurous john is an avid indoorsman as he likes to say um he hates going outside because he'll get dirty and you know stuff like that and i go climb mountains and
1
SPEAKER_00
 yeah go to mount everest base camp go to mount everest you know stuff like that when i'm 50 so um when i for example when i told john that i wanted to take 15 women or 12 women and go to mount everest base camp
1
SPEAKER_00
 and celebrate turning 50 that way, he first said, are you absolutely out of your mind?
1
SPEAKER_00
And I said, yes, and I still want to go.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so we had a big discussion about that.
1
SPEAKER_00
And the discussion included John asking me
1
SPEAKER_00
 questions, and those questions are part of one of our big interventions.
1
SPEAKER_00
Questions like, are there any ethics, values, or guidelines that are part of your position on this?
1
SPEAKER_00
What's the childhood history or background that may be related to this?
1
SPEAKER_00
Why is it so important to you?
1
SPEAKER_00
What's your ideal dream here about this?
1
SPEAKER_00
 Is there an underlying purpose or life meaning for you?
1
SPEAKER_00
So John asked those questions.
1
SPEAKER_00
And in turn, I asked him the same questions regarding his not wanting me to go.
1
SPEAKER_00
And by the end, of course, I won and I got to go.
1
SPEAKER_00
And he didn't read into thin air about the 1996 Mount Everest debacle until after I got back.
1
SPEAKER_05
 I love that.
1
SPEAKER_05
That's a great example.
1
SPEAKER_05
I'm so glad you drew my differences.
1
SPEAKER_05
Me and my wife, I would consider that we're also very different.
1
SPEAKER_05
My wife's a very rooted, grounded individual, loves also being around family and home and safe, secure environments.
1
SPEAKER_05
I'm high risk and like trying new things.
1
SPEAKER_05
 experimenting a lot and having new experiences.
1
SPEAKER_05
And I'm very flexible and adaptable constantly.
1
SPEAKER_05
I don't need a lot of sameness to feel happy.
1
SPEAKER_05
And she prefers that.
1
SPEAKER_05
And we've been through so many changes on our relationship from moving country, to moving homes, to not being around
2
SPEAKER_05
 family, and all of these changes that we've been through over the last four years that we've been married.
2
SPEAKER_05
It's been incredible to have.
2
SPEAKER_05
I think the problem is the people from the outside often think we're very similar.
2
SPEAKER_05
Hearing about how you overcome a difference, and respect each other's differences, and gain respect by having a conversation.
2
SPEAKER_05
 It is so important because I think people just think, oh, well, if you don't want to come with me, then how can I be with you?
2
SPEAKER_05
You don't want to go with John in the first place.
2
SPEAKER_05
I mean, you wanted to go with someone else because you know what he's like.
2
SPEAKER_05
I think that's great.
2
SPEAKER_05
Just having that awareness is such a breakthrough because I feel like so many partners expect their partner to do everything with them.
2
SPEAKER_05
 and they want to share their favorite experiences.
2
SPEAKER_05
So whether it's if I have friends who are hugely into a sport and they really want their partner to come with them, or they have a hobby, like a few of my friends would always want their partners to be in the audience if they were performing or doing something.
2
SPEAKER_05
 But often, it's not that person is not interested in you, it's just they're not interested in that thing.
2
SPEAKER_05
We hear this a lot in relationships, and there's no one better to ask than you because you can talk about the data on it.
2
SPEAKER_05
What is the role of compromise, and does that even exist?
2
SPEAKER_05
What is compromise?
2
SPEAKER_05
What is the right way of compromising, and how is it effective?
2
SPEAKER_07
 Go ahead.
2
SPEAKER_04
So we figured that one out too from the couples and from the data.
2
SPEAKER_04
So we call it the two oval method, otherwise known as the bagel method.
2
SPEAKER_04
So here's what it looks like.
2
SPEAKER_04
Basically when you're trying to reach a compromise,
2
SPEAKER_04
 You take a piece of paper i'll give you just the exercise how to do it you take a piece of paper you draw a big Bagel or donut on your piece of paper and in the inner circle you think about your position on this issue and you write down what?
2
SPEAKER_04
aspect of my position on this issue can I not compromise on
2
SPEAKER_04
 That is so true to my heart, my soul, who I am, my identity, that if I gave it up, I would be a bag of bones.
2
SPEAKER_04
I can't do it.
2
SPEAKER_04
Then you write down what those components are.
2
SPEAKER_04
 that are part of your position.
2
SPEAKER_04
Then in the outer circle, you write down, what are you more flexible about?
2
SPEAKER_04
And people are typically more flexible about kind of the newspaper reporter questions.
2
SPEAKER_04
When, where, how, what, how much will it cost, how long will things last?
2
SPEAKER_04
 When will it begin?
2
SPEAKER_04
You know, those more nitty-gritty detail questions that people tend to be more flexible about.
2
SPEAKER_04
Then you come together, you share what you wrote down in your circles, and then talk about where is there overlap, especially in the flexible areas.
2
SPEAKER_04
 Where is there overlap?
2
SPEAKER_04
So here's a compromise.
2
SPEAKER_06
Let me give you and explain the why those Core needs are so central to you.
2
SPEAKER_06
So your partner can understand those and respect them.
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, right, right great.
2
SPEAKER_04
So, um
2
SPEAKER_04
 An example of this was a couple who were getting ready to retire.
2
SPEAKER_04
They both wanted to sell their house, but one wanted to sail around the world.
2
SPEAKER_04
It was a heterosexual couple, so guess which one wanted to sail around the world.
2
SPEAKER_04
In this case, the stereotype fits, and it was the guy.
2
SPEAKER_04
 The woman Had a farm that had been in her family for over a hundred years and she wanted to take her place living on the farm with her husband As a long line of ancestors had done before her.
2
SPEAKER_04
Where was the farm located, Iowa?
2
SPEAKER_04
So how are you gonna, you know sail around the world from Iowa?
2
SPEAKER_04
This is not an easy thing.
2
SPEAKER_04
So when they divvied up
2
SPEAKER_04
 their positions on the issue, they realized that there was a lot of flexibility about whose dream went first, how long would it last, how much would they spend, where would they go, etc.
2
SPEAKER_04
And so they came up
2
SPEAKER_04
 By overlapping and discussing those flexible areas, as well as discussing how to honor each other's dreams, which is very important here, that center circle for each person, they figured out that they would sail first for one year and get as far as they could.
2
SPEAKER_04
 Then they put the boat up on dry dock, go to the farm, live in Iowa for one year and see how that felt.
2
SPEAKER_04
And at the end of two years, they would have both honored, had their dreams honored and supported by the other person.
2
SPEAKER_04
And then they would figure out what to do next.
2
SPEAKER_04
That's how compromise works.
2
SPEAKER_05
 Yeah, that's beautiful to hear that.
2
SPEAKER_05
I love that.
2
SPEAKER_05
I love that.
2
SPEAKER_05
I remember when I first got the opportunity to move to New York for my work, and this came as a surprise a month after we got married and bought a house five minutes away from my mother and father-in-law, because my wife told me our whole relationship that she would never, ever want to move further than five minutes away from her parents.
2
SPEAKER_05
 And a month later after we got married, I get this, this is four years ago, I get this huge career break that literally changes my life and is what I would call that core priority of something I would never negotiate on because it's so important to me and I can say no to it.
2
SPEAKER_05
 And my wife didn't talk to me for two days.
2
SPEAKER_05
We've talked about this publicly before.
2
SPEAKER_05
She didn't talk to me for two days, because she was processing it and figuring out what it meant.
2
SPEAKER_05
But it's been so interesting, because I remember saying to her, I said, we will fly you back every week for every weekend of every month, if that's what it takes.
2
SPEAKER_05
 for you to feel that you can be in both places.
2
SPEAKER_05
Or I can go, you can stay here, and we can see how that works.
2
SPEAKER_05
And then we can figure out what works for both of us.
2
SPEAKER_05
And thankfully, we've both been living in the States for the last four years.
2
SPEAKER_05
And my wife thinks it's one of the best decisions she ever made.
2
SPEAKER_05
 But in the beginning, it was really, really tough to figure out what was the right thing to do.
2
SPEAKER_05
And I'm grateful for her approach and my approach.
2
SPEAKER_05
We actually did that in a very informal way, but those stages sound very close to how we processed it.
2
SPEAKER_05
That's why it works.
2
SPEAKER_05
Very reassuring, very reassuring to hear that.
2
SPEAKER_05
What a great way of defining compromise, because I think people throw around the word compromise and they just think it's them begrudgingly doing what the other person wants.
2
SPEAKER_05
 That's not a good definition.
2
SPEAKER_04
No, that's surrender.
2
SPEAKER_04
That's not compromise.
2
SPEAKER_05
Yeah, absolutely.
2
SPEAKER_05
I love that.
2
SPEAKER_05
Okay, so I want to move further on in the chronology of a relationship and I want to ask an extreme question because I think so many people unfortunately deal with this today.
2
SPEAKER_05
It's like, what do you do when you find out that your partner has cheated on you?
2
SPEAKER_05
 I hear about this far too often, both in marriage or in just dating.
2
SPEAKER_05
I feel so many people, unfortunately, go through so much pain in that scenario because they might have children, they might have family involved, whatever it is, it is never easy.
2
SPEAKER_05
What does the data and reset say around when you find out your partner has had an affair, what has been the best way of operating that?
2
SPEAKER_05
What are the next moves from that situation at work?
2
SPEAKER_05
 Bye.
2
SPEAKER_04
 Okay.
2
SPEAKER_04
Well, first of all, we have done some research on that and there have been other people who have written about it.
2
SPEAKER_04
One in particular is named Shirley Glass, who was Ira Glass's mother, a fantastic psychologist.
2
SPEAKER_04
And she treated a fair couples throughout her career and wrote a book called Not Just Friends, which was a fabulous, fabulous book.
2
SPEAKER_04
 And what she recognized and we also saw this in our work is that the person who's been betrayed suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder
2
SPEAKER_04
 which means they can't control the thoughts of their partner with somebody else that are coming into their mind all the time.
2
SPEAKER_04
They're alternating between emotional numbness and then exploding.
2
SPEAKER_04
They are just beside themselves with the pain of it and their whole world has vanished.
2
SPEAKER_04
 So, what has to happen that John and I are now doing a study on, but we've really seen thus far, clinically, anecdotally, really seems to work, is a three- For couples who want to maintain their relationship after the gene, who want to stay together.
2
SPEAKER_06
Right.
2
SPEAKER_06
Right.
2
SPEAKER_04
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_04
It's a three-phase
2
SPEAKER_04
 Process that takes a therapist.
2
SPEAKER_04
You need a very good therapist who is not in the pulpit judging because both people are human people make mistakes and both people need to feel supported and compassion from their therapist so first we call it the atonement stage where
2
SPEAKER_04
 the person who was betrayed begins by asking the person who had the affair any questions they want to about the affair aside from asking the specifics about what kind of sex did you have because if they ask that last question
2
SPEAKER_04
 They're bound to have more pictures come into their mind that will traumatize them even further and that's not going to be helpful But asking how much did you spend?
2
SPEAKER_04
What did you buy him or her?
2
SPEAKER_04
Uh, where did you go overnight, you know and so on so asking a lot of questions and
2
SPEAKER_04
 that person also needs to be supported to express their feelings about the affair.
2
SPEAKER_04
They have to express those feelings.
2
SPEAKER_04
And again, by saying, I feel so betrayed.
2
SPEAKER_04
I feel destroyed.
2
SPEAKER_04
My whole world has blown up.
2
SPEAKER_04
And not hear defensiveness in response, not talk about the marriage yet.
2
SPEAKER_04
 Not yet, but instead respond with empathy, with sorrow, with remorse, and ask maybe over and over and over again, not necessarily for forgiveness, but saying, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry.
2
SPEAKER_04
And the other partner who's been betrayed hears that, and that may take a while.
2
SPEAKER_04
Then,
2
SPEAKER_04
 And again, PTSD has to be underscored as part of what may be causing the explosions at home.
2
SPEAKER_04
When images come in or a nightmare happens, that person may explode the next day.
2
SPEAKER_04
So that's PTSD going on.
2
SPEAKER_04
 Then finally, after atonement calms down, you move into what we call attunement.
2
SPEAKER_04
Attunement is finally the stage where you're talking about the marriage itself and what went wrong.
2
SPEAKER_04
What we've seen is that typically most affairs are about feeling lonely.
2
SPEAKER_04
 They're about feeling empty.
2
SPEAKER_04
They're about not feeling listened to.
2
SPEAKER_04
They often occur in marriages where the conflicts have been so awful that people have stopped expressing what they need, and then they get lonely.
2
SPEAKER_04
 And so after a while that loneliness takes hold of one and that other person starts to talk to somebody else of whatever their sexual preference might be.
2
SPEAKER_04
And eventually that friendship moves into something else.
2
SPEAKER_04
 what Shirley Glass says that I love is that the walls and windows get reversed.
2
SPEAKER_04
In a healthy marriage, there needs to be a window open between the two partners with a wall around the couple that protects from outside influences of other people, other partners.
2
SPEAKER_04
Those get reversed where the person doing the affair
2
SPEAKER_04
 is opening a window to the affair partner and closing off The marital partner So that's why affairs happen.
2
SPEAKER_04
So you re?
2
SPEAKER_04
Look at the marriage you process past regrettable incidents bad fights.
2
SPEAKER_04
They had that Never got resolved they talk about their conflicts and re
2
SPEAKER_04
 learn how to talk gently and compassionately about conflicts so they're not so afraid to have them.
2
SPEAKER_04
They develop new rituals of connection.
2
SPEAKER_04
They work on their friendship, on turning towards each other's needs, expressing their needs.
2
SPEAKER_04
 And then, you know, things can get better over time.
2
SPEAKER_04
And finally, in the last phase, which is called attach or attachment, they then hopefully recommit to each other and to the marriage.
2
SPEAKER_04
That may be the stage for some couples, not for all, where they reinitiate having sexuality again in their lives together.
2
SPEAKER_04
 Um, and things are deepened during that phase in terms of loyalty and commitment That's how you do it takes a while.
2
SPEAKER_05
Oh for sure No, and I love the the stages because I think there was just so much patience in what you were saying And if you are trying to make it work or you even if you're trying to move on it's going to be a patient process It's always nice to be able to be aware of which stage am I at or which step am I moving into?
2
SPEAKER_05
 I want to be respectful of both of your time and I want to say today has been absolutely mind-blowing.
2
SPEAKER_05
This is incredible.
2
SPEAKER_05
I feel like we need to do multiple episodes a year where we dive deeply into all different aspects and facets of a relationship because I've learned so much today.
2
SPEAKER_05
 And I'm so excited for my community and audience to hear this one because I feel like it's just going to help them and guide them so much.
2
SPEAKER_05
And I want to make sure that we direct them in the way of your books and work that you feel is most useful to them.
2
SPEAKER_05
So where should they go?
2
SPEAKER_05
If people want to learn more about all this incredible research and data and apply it to their lives, where should they start and where should they go?
2
SPEAKER_05
Where do you recommend?
2
SPEAKER_06
In the area of affairs, the book to get is What Makes Love Last?
2
SPEAKER_04
 By him.
2
SPEAKER_06
Yeah, by John Gottman.
2
SPEAKER_06
And part of what Julie hasn't talked about is that in order to really develop this therapy to help couples who want to stay together after an affair, we also have to study couples who maintain loyalty.
2
SPEAKER_06
 and avoid betrayal.
2
SPEAKER_06
So you can't understand one side of a process without understanding the other side.
2
SPEAKER_06
And that's how we really built this therapy.
2
SPEAKER_06
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_04
So one place you can go is www.gottman.com.
2
SPEAKER_04
 eight dates essential conversations for a lifetime of love is wonderful to explore not only This new relationship.
2
SPEAKER_04
Is it terrific?
2
SPEAKER_04
But maybe one you've been together a long time and is a little stale you can um deepen that relationship as well and we're also um We're creating especially because of covid we're creating an app that puts all of our interventions
2
SPEAKER_04
 and exercises and assessments of relationships to um to help couples that is much cheaper than workshops and therapy we want to democratize people's access to relationship health and that's through affective software with an a affective software Inc.
2
SPEAKER_04
So, uh, those are all places to go to learn more
2
SPEAKER_05
 I love that.
2
SPEAKER_05
I'm so glad you're doing that.
2
SPEAKER_05
I think that's going to be so useful to people.
2
SPEAKER_05
I can imagine.
2
SPEAKER_05
I can't wait to share that with my audience.
2
SPEAKER_05
I think my community would absolutely love tools like that.
2
SPEAKER_04
Thank you, Jay.
2
SPEAKER_04
That would be very helpful.
2
SPEAKER_04
It's a digital world, despite me being TI, which is called technologically impaired.
2
SPEAKER_05
That's incredible.
2
SPEAKER_05
I'm glad you're doing that.
2
SPEAKER_05
 So we end every On Purpose episode with what's called a fast five, which means every single one of these questions has to be answered with one word or a maximum of one sentence.
2
SPEAKER_05
So these are like super fast five, you can both answer them one after the other.
2
SPEAKER_05
So the first question is, what was the biggest lesson you learned in the last 12 months?
2
SPEAKER_05
That's a one sentence kind of thing.
2
SPEAKER_04
That I love staying home.
2
SPEAKER_04
Beautiful.
2
SPEAKER_06
 How much I love you.
2
SPEAKER_05
I love that.
2
SPEAKER_05
I can tell, John, I'm definitely more like you in the relationship.
2
SPEAKER_05
I think I told my wife I love her like a million times a day.
2
SPEAKER_05
Oh, that's great.
2
SPEAKER_05
I could see in this interview.
2
SPEAKER_05
Okay, second question.
2
SPEAKER_05
What was the last kindest thing your partner did for you?
2
SPEAKER_04
 Hmm.
2
SPEAKER_04
Um, let's see two things.
2
SPEAKER_04
Um, in order for me to do clinical work for eight hours today, um, he took our new puppy this morning, fairly early to doggy day camp, which is an hour round trip.
2
SPEAKER_04
And not only that, but he went and picked him up.
2
SPEAKER_05
 Oh, I love that.
2
SPEAKER_06
What a big sweetie.
2
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_06
I mean, she made a wonderful dinner last night, you know, and we sat and watched a TV together eating our dinner and playing with a puppy.
2
SPEAKER_06
So I love it.
2
SPEAKER_05
Question number three, what's the best place to meet someone today?
2
SPEAKER_04
God, that's a good question.
2
SPEAKER_04
Uh, Holy cow.
2
SPEAKER_05
 What's the reset say?
2
SPEAKER_05
I'm fascinated by that because I feel like that's such a big question.
2
SPEAKER_05
I would love for you to reset that because the number one question people tell me is, where do I meet that person?
2
SPEAKER_05
Where do I find them?
2
SPEAKER_04
How about a political protest?
2
SPEAKER_04
With a mask on.
2
SPEAKER_04
Just wear, you know, if you like wearing makeup, wear a lot of makeup.
2
SPEAKER_05
Right.
2
SPEAKER_05
John, do you have an answer for that one?
2
SPEAKER_05
If you could make a law that everyone in a relationship had to follow, what would it be?
2
SPEAKER_06
 never Give your partner unwanted touch ie violence or sexual abuse My answer would be Adopt the model that when your partner is in pain or stressed and Wants to talk about his or her feelings the world stops and you listen.
2
SPEAKER_06
Yeah, Jude
2
SPEAKER_05
 Amazing.
2
SPEAKER_05
And final question of your fast five.
2
SPEAKER_05
Uh, if there's one thing that couples should avoid in relationships, what would that be?
2
SPEAKER_04
Contempt, contempt, meaning not only putting down your partner, uh, with a criticism, but doing a, doing it from a place of superiority.
2
SPEAKER_04
 it not only fries the relationship, it hurts the immune system of the listener.
2
SPEAKER_06
Yeah, absolutely.
2
SPEAKER_06
And the speaker.
2
SPEAKER_06
And the speaker, a little less so, but yeah.
2
SPEAKER_04
How about you?
2
SPEAKER_06
One thing to avoid.
2
SPEAKER_06
Taking your partner for granted.
2
SPEAKER_05
 Great answer.
2
SPEAKER_05
Good one.
2
SPEAKER_05
Fantastic.
2
SPEAKER_05
John and Julie, you are amazing.
2
SPEAKER_05
This was so much fun.
2
SPEAKER_05
And everything you shared, like I said, I think people are going to benefit so much.
2
SPEAKER_05
I can't wait to share it.
2
SPEAKER_05
I can't wait for your app.
2
SPEAKER_05
Effective software, as you said, Inc.
2
SPEAKER_05
I can't wait for it.
2
SPEAKER_05
And thank you so much to both of you for taking this time and being with me.
2
SPEAKER_05
And really, really looking forward to meeting again in person.
2
SPEAKER_05
And I hope we can do another interview in person at some point as well.
2
SPEAKER_05
That'd be great, Jay.
2
SPEAKER_05
Thank you so much.
2
SPEAKER_05
I really enjoyed this.
2
SPEAKER_05
And I appreciate you both so much.
2
SPEAKER_04
 and your questions were deeply intelligent and beautiful.
2
SPEAKER_04
Thank you.
2
SPEAKER_02
 Hey everyone, this is Molly and Matt and we're the hosts of Grown Up Stuff How to Adult, a podcast from Ruby Studio and iHeart Podcasts.
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SPEAKER_00
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 A new season of Bridgerton is here.
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