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SPEAKER_03
Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert.
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It s Thanksgiving.
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We miss that turkey.
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SPEAKER_01
Oh, yeah.
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And I ve stolen that, you know, from Aaron.
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I just got to give a shout out to... He s the proprietor of the... Yeah, you got to give credit where credit s due.
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We have a really good friend of ours on today.
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Jedediah Jenkins.
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Jedediah Jenkins.
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He s so good.
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When I met Kristen, they lived together and that was her very best friend in the world.
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SPEAKER_03
Yes.
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And he s so immersed in our friendship circle and he s just an incredibly talented writer.
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He s a memoirist.
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SPEAKER_01
He is a memoirist, which I didn t even know that term until I did my research on Jedediah.
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Yeah.
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But he has,
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A few great books.
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He has To Shake the Sleeping Self, Like Streams to the Ocean, and he has a new book out right now called Mother Nature, a 5,000 mile journey to discover if a mother and son can survive their differences.
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SPEAKER_01
It s so good.
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SPEAKER_03
He s great.
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This is such a fun episode.
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For a second, I was like, whoa, am I partial?
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SPEAKER_03
Like why?
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I m enjoying this so much.
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SPEAKER_03
Is it because I just love him?
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SPEAKER_01
Yes.
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But I don t think so.
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He s just so interesting.
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SPEAKER_01
He is incredibly interesting.
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We love Jedediah Jenkins.
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And what a name, Jedediah Jenkins.
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Oh, also just side note, he also is who introduced me to Huey, my favorite guy in all of the South.
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That s right.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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People will remember Huey.
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He was on a fact check.
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He was.
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Wonderfully polarizing, just as I would expect.
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Please enjoy Jedediah Jenkins.
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He s an upturned star.
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I love it here.
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SPEAKER_03
It s cozy, right?
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, very.
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SPEAKER_00
Maybe I peeked up here like when you bought this house, but I ve never been up here since it s become Armchair s iconic lair, and it s much cozier than it looks in photos.
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Yeah, that s what people say.
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You know a place first, and you see it in photos second.
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You can t evaluate the photos, probably, objectively.
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The spatial mind.
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The hippocampus.
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Is that what that does?
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Yeah, and you know how I learned that?
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Well, whose book was it?
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Paul Bloom s, because he gave us a little rhyme.
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The hippocampus is how you know where you re at on campus.
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SPEAKER_03
Wait, he did not say that to us.
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SPEAKER_03
I ve never heard that.
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SPEAKER_01
It was in his book.
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And then I said it to him and he said, oh, you really read the book.
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SPEAKER_00
Okay, my question is, Paul Bloom is someone I only know from podcasts.
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SPEAKER_00
Yes.
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And he s so articulate, so delightful, but some people who are amazing interviews and amazing speakers, the book version of them is like less interesting.
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Ah, sure, sure, sure.
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Can you see that?
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And vice versa, too.
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Very vice, well, you know better than me.
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Probably more vice versa, where someone s so well-spoken in writing, and then in person, they re tongue-tied, or they re just not an extra.
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SPEAKER_00
Wait, I have a question.
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So I got here at 10.59, I m very punctual.
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My whole life, I felt very Jada Pinkett.
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Okay.
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And my question is, have you, and you don t have to name names, had somebody who just like was very late and unapologetic?
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Well, we ll name names because it s OK, because we talked about it when it happened.
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And this crazy course of coincidence afforded this reaction from me, which was Machine Gun Kelly.
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SPEAKER_01
Do we want to interview him?
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SPEAKER_01
I don t.
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Yeah, he s a big name.
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I guess he s got to be interesting.
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But my knee jerk knowing nothing about him was I don t think I like him.
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SPEAKER_03
You went in with some preconceived notions.
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Yeah, just some book by the cover stuff.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And then I think he was supposed to be on Monday.
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So then I spent the whole morning researching him.
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And in the research, it became incredibly evident to me that I loved him, that I knew him so well, that I related so much to him.
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And I learned how absolutely prolific he is.
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Now, whether it s stuff I consumed or not, you got to admire the volcano of creativity.
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And I can tell he s a vulnerable.
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He s sensitive, really rough childhood, crazy dad who was a missionary and took them all over the world trying to spread the gospel.
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SPEAKER_00
So you re going to make me feel bad about him being late?
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SPEAKER_01
No, no.
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SPEAKER_01
Oh, he straight didn t show up.
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SPEAKER_01
You re here.
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We re here.
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He canceled right before the interview, which normally would have annoyed me because I spent the whole day researching.
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But I was like, yeah, OK, that s no problem.
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Could he come on Wednesday?
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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No, you re probably out normally.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that happens.
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I m not going to roll the dice twice that we ve scheduled this time.
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On Wednesday, no one can find him.
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So he does show up and he s 40 minutes later.
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SPEAKER_03
Yeah, he was apologetic, though.
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SPEAKER_01
Absolutely.
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And he sat down, but I didn t get mad at him.
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It s just a testament to you think your reactions are predictable or they re objectively like, of course I d be mad.
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Anyone would be mad.
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That s a defense we use.
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But no, I had this yearning to connect with this boy.
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And so I didn t mind at all.
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And it was this great, beautiful interview.
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And yes, he was very apologetic.
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We ve had people be late, but no one s been just like, yeah, accept my lateness.
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The only thing that I know in that world famously is Rihanna.
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Rihanna called me when I was working at Invisible Children.
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SPEAKER_03
What are you talking about, Jed?
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Get ready for this.
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I m so excited to name drop this.
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I was working at Invisible Children, which is a charity where we made documentaries about child soldiers.
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Rihanna saw one of our videos.
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Hold on, one second.
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SPEAKER_01
We make documentaries about child soldiers?
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Sounds like it could be celebratory.
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SPEAKER_00
Okay, about- So, abducted children who were forced into- Conscripting- Yes, yes, okay.
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Documentaries to stop the use of child soldiers.
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There we go.
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Invisible Children made Kony 2012, that clusterfuck- Viral.
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Viral situation.
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Rihanna saw it.
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She s like, I ve never been this moved.
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She knows a mutual friend of ours who s a music video director.
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I m getting an unknown number call on my phone, and who answers an unknown number?
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No, never.
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Psychopaths.
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But the fifth time, I m like, even a scammer doesn t keep calling back.
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They move on.
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I pick it up, and it s a Barbados accent.
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No!
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I don t even know what she sounds like speaking.
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Wow.
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So I don t know who I m talking to.
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And she says, Rihanna, which at that time, I m like, well, it s not Rihanna.
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I don t even know who I m talking to.
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Anyway.
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She puts the mutual friend on the phone and then my brain connects and then I don t remember anything that was said after.
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But she said, I want to meet you the next day.
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Oh, wow.
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She s shooting a music video in L.A.
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I drive up from San Diego.
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I show up at the music video set.
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I ve never been on a music video set.
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It s unbelievable.
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And she s like, I m going to meet you at 3 p.m.
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We get there, of course, at 2.
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And we re just like in the mix.
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She isn t on set.
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Everyone s waiting for her to start recording.
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We can hear her in
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the like dressing room of the soundstage.
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She s in there cackling with her friends, smoking weed, having the time.
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So I m with Kenny, our mutual friend, and we re standing outside and we become best friends with her security guard.
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And we re there for six hours.
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Six hours?
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SPEAKER_00
No.
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Hey, I ll be right out.
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Nothing, of course.
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Do you think she forgot?
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I think that she is so present and doing whatever she wants and just moves through the world.
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I don t think it s conscious of, I m gonna make them wait and flex.
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I think she s just like, life is so hectic and I do exactly what I want when I want and it s worked out for me, so I m gonna keep doing that.
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And she was delightful and so tall.
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Like how tall would you say?
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My height, but she was wearing heels, so taller than me, I m 5 10 .
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Well, you know what, Dax?
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Yeah, go ahead.
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you call her something.
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But I don t.
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I think she s so sexy.
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SPEAKER_01
Oh.
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Well, yeah, who doesn t?
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She s the sexiest person alive.
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I think she s so sexy.
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And I call her the sex giraffe.
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And Monica hates it.
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Yeah, because it s like.
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But then some arm cherries liked it, because they made a beautiful painting of the sex giraffe.
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It was a hybrid of Rihanna and of the sexy giraffe.
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And then Monica and I were peeking around bushes.
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It s an incredible painting.
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Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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But also, it led to a horrible conversation.
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SPEAKER_03
Yeah, I know.
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SPEAKER_03
That made me sex chinchilla.
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Sex chinchilla.
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Isn t that so unappetizing?
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Aren t chinchillas so soft?
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I honestly think it s appetizing because the softness.
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And I have found in my late bloomer sexual journey that I really like a smaller person.
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SPEAKER_03
That s nice.
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SPEAKER_03
Same, same, same.
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SPEAKER_03
I mean, you re at the beyond.
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Yeah.
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You re above 4 11 .
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Keep walking.
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But you gotta be crazy powerful.
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You gotta be asymmetrically powerful.
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SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
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It s fluffy.
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Do you like your little ones powerful?
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SPEAKER_00
Mm, no.
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SPEAKER_00
Okay, yeah, good, I love the honesty.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, me too.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I like them to need me to protect them and like.
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SPEAKER_02
Oh, right.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, because your wife does not need you to protect her, but she likes it.
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SPEAKER_00
I need protecting from her, yeah, yeah.
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Mm, oh my God.
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Okay, let s start at the beginning.
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Because we just jumped in with such familiarity, people will smell it and they ll want an explanation, so here it comes.
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When I met Kristen 16 years ago, she lived with you.
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Rather, you lived with her.
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SPEAKER_00
I lived with her in her beautiful hillside estate.
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SPEAKER_00
Yes.
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It was a 65 bedroom.
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Pre-Rihanna.
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Rihanna.
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SPEAKER_00
Yes, pre-Rihanna.
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And you were like, you don t need this house.
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SPEAKER_00
Yep.
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I remember.
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I was like, how much do you pay for this?
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How much do you make on Veronica Mars?
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I was her friend for a number of years and saw her go through different boyfriends or whatever.
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And it was like, la, la, la.
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And then
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this lightning struck and everything shifted when you showed up.
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I will say it is very jarring to see someone meet their soulmate when you re front row because I didn t have my first boyfriend till I was 30.
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I m late to the game and still figuring it out.
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And it just feels like, okay, la la la, I got to
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figure out what I m gonna do.
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This person s fine, let me go down the checklist.
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There is 60, that s kind of almost passing.
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And then you just see someone when the checklist no longer matters.
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And it s so annoying to believe in that because it keeps me looking for it.
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SPEAKER_00
Same, Jed.
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Hello.
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TikTok.
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But it is very profound to see.
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It was a bumpy ride at first.
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I m sure there was a lot of consoling.
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SPEAKER_01
I had broken up with her at one point.
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SPEAKER_01
I m sure you hated me at some point.
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Be honest.
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You are a very strong energy, and as a gay man, I fear alpha energy.
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And it made me recoil a little bit of just like, wow, this is a lot of shifting energy in the house.
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Agreed.
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Did you think you might beat you up?
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No, I just don t like being uncomfortable.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and Dax loves discomfort.
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No.
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Listen, I know I present as that.
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I ve had many different gay friends over the years that it started very tense.
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SPEAKER_02
Well, then you become the ultimate friend because you re the friend we never thought we could have.
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SPEAKER_01
Yes, this is why Silicon Valley loves Ashton Kutcher.
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It s very that.
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And it s why back in the Obama era, the White House Correspondents Dinner was so fun because D.C.
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is power and they dream of popularity, which is Hollywood.
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And Hollywood is popular and they dream of power.
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SPEAKER_02
And so they go and jerk each other off.
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SPEAKER_02
And the energy is so fun.
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SPEAKER_02
It is.
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SPEAKER_01
It is.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
But at least from my perspective, because you didn t trigger me at all.
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What triggered me is I think everyone s trying to take advantage of me and everyone else.
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SPEAKER_01
And so I m starting to love this person.
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SPEAKER_01
And I see like, well, five people live here.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01
Who pays what for rent?
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SPEAKER_01
It s not my place.
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SPEAKER_01
This is all wrong.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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There s a little of me that s starting to evaluate.
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SPEAKER_01
Is this girl being taken advantage of?
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SPEAKER_01
Which is protection.
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This woman.
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But despite that, I fall in love with you and Ryan immediately because Ryan Hansen s also living there.
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SPEAKER_01
And Amy, I just immediately like you so much, to the point where I do something I don t normally ever do in life, which is like, I ask you if you ll go to lunch with me, because I care about you, pretty quickly.
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SPEAKER_01
And I want to talk about where we re at with being gay and being Christian.
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SPEAKER_00
You were out?
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SPEAKER_02
I came out to my friends like at 19.
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SPEAKER_02
Okay.
1
SPEAKER_02
And then my parents at 21, 22.
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SPEAKER_02
But there s a thing in gay culture called best boy syndrome, where when you wake up into your identity as a middle schooler and you realize what you are naturally makes you in trouble, especially at a Christian school.
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SPEAKER_02
I am in trouble by existing.
1
SPEAKER_02
You want to become the best boy in the world to prove your worth.
1
SPEAKER_02
So you re a student body president, you re all the things.
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SPEAKER_01
Let s list some accolades.
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SPEAKER_02
I was most likely to be succe- no.
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SPEAKER_01
We go to USC, we go to Pepperdine.
1
SPEAKER_00
Well, that s the irony that Dax is the popular kid.
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SPEAKER_00
You re the popular kid.
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SPEAKER_02
Well, I was very lucky.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s the thing.
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SPEAKER_02
The subjective experience of anyone is I m liked until they find out.
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SPEAKER_00
Of course.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_01
But when I met you, you were presenting as gay, but very Christian and believing in it and never going to act on it.
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SPEAKER_01
That was your declaration.
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SPEAKER_01
Like, I am gay.
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SPEAKER_01
This is a challenge or a test that God s given to me, but you re brilliant.
1
SPEAKER_01
So whatever you turn your opinion onto is going to be mildly persuasive.
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SPEAKER_01
This is the danger of being smart.
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SPEAKER_01
You can make good arguments.
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SPEAKER_01
It doesn t mean they re actually sound.
1
SPEAKER_02
Well, and when your heart is scary, so you turn to your head and you can create arguments for anything.
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SPEAKER_01
You were like, I m gonna use all this energy that I would normally be putting into this, and I m gonna dedicate it to invisible children and this cause and that cause, and I m going to harness this.
1
SPEAKER_02
And to knowing the Bible and being an advocate for Christianity as a gay man better than anyone else so I can prove to the community that I fear exile from the most, my Christian friends, who was my whole community, exile, which is an ape s biggest fear.
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SPEAKER_02
So I was like so scared of that.
1
SPEAKER_02
So I was going to become the boss of the Bible.
1
SPEAKER_02
But the thread pulled on the sweater was that I m obsessed with anthropology and nature and evolution, and I always have been.
1
SPEAKER_02
The first linchpin of my deconstruction of my faith was the fact that my mom allowed me to watch the Discovery Channel.
1
SPEAKER_02
Oopsies.
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SPEAKER_02
Learning about dinosaurs and learning just the incongruity and the way that their explanations were so facile and silly.
1
SPEAKER_02
The best way to make someone stay religious is to make them unable to read or consume anything.
1
SPEAKER_02
Anyway, so your perspective and the way you see the world analytically and scientifically and you want to ration and get there with logic, it was so attractive to me.
1
SPEAKER_02
Even though your masculine energy was triggering, it was also so delicious.
1
SPEAKER_02
I was envious of your mind because your mind seemed to be set free to just be like, whatever is true is true and I want to know.
1
SPEAKER_02
You approached me with curiosity like, why do you think that way?
1
SPEAKER_02
And I remember just that posture.
1
SPEAKER_02
My subconscious was like, one day I ll get there, but I can t.
1
SPEAKER_01
Well, that s delightful.
1
SPEAKER_01
Cause I also was very horny for your mind.
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SPEAKER_01
I immediately liked how you thought and spoke.
1
SPEAKER_01
You re so articulate.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s incredible.
1
SPEAKER_01
But we went out to lunch.
1
SPEAKER_01
I said,
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SPEAKER_01
I m not gonna try to prove to you that there s not a God.
1
SPEAKER_01
I know you believe in this God, and I m not at all suggesting you stop.
1
SPEAKER_01
But I am suggesting there s no way that if there s a God worth worshipping, that he would put you on this planet to be lonely.
1
SPEAKER_01
I don t accept that for you.
1
SPEAKER_02
Isn t it so wild?
1
SPEAKER_02
I had my best friend in college.
1
SPEAKER_02
He was very Christian, and it s so interesting when you re a closeted Christian or gay Christian.
1
SPEAKER_02
So many men, their sexuality is on the spectrum.
1
SPEAKER_02
or whatever that is.
1
SPEAKER_02
If we lived in a truly open world with no labels, men having sex would be, I think, extremely common, more than it is.
1
SPEAKER_02
To be exclusively heterosexual, I think, is rare.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I think it s rare to be exclusively homosexual, which is why we re less than 10% of the population.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I have every societal reason to try it with a girl.
1
SPEAKER_02
It would be so much easier in my life, especially where I grew up.
1
SPEAKER_02
And so I would say there is a huge middle.
1
SPEAKER_02
Anyway, there are so many men
1
SPEAKER_02
who in the guise of best friendship and brotherhood and fellowship and church and the slumber parties of it all and the back rubs, my entire teenage years and 20 years were giving like multi-hour long swapped full body butt rubs of many gorgeous straight men.
1
SPEAKER_02
Many.
1
SPEAKER_02
Hours and hours.
1
SPEAKER_02
And they would do it to me for hours and hours.
1
SPEAKER_01
It was like your hair playing on me.
1
SPEAKER_01
I know.
1
SPEAKER_02
But I would never do that with a girl.
1
SPEAKER_02
Right, right, right, right, right.
1
SPEAKER_02
Because I d be like, my hands hurt.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_02
Let s just talk.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
Didn t you get aroused?
1
SPEAKER_02
No, the NRB, the no reason boner, which was so popular in high school, was men just had NRBs all the time.
1
SPEAKER_02
NRB.
1
SPEAKER_02
I don t get those because my subconscious knows that s dangerous.
1
SPEAKER_02
Because if I m in the locker room.
1
SPEAKER_00
It ll be a tell.
1
SPEAKER_02
Boom, it s a tell.
1
SPEAKER_01
Your penis defines- Defines me.
1
SPEAKER_02
No.
1
SPEAKER_00
No, it betrays you.
1
SPEAKER_02
Betrays you.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
Your penis has betrayed you.
1
SPEAKER_02
So my penis learned very early that it does not wake up unless it has overt clues.
1
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
1
SPEAKER_02
So you have to like seduce me and start touching me and kiss me and then it is up.
1
SPEAKER_02
But it is not up from visual anything from a distance at all.
1
SPEAKER_00
And from butt rubbing apparently.
1
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
1
SPEAKER_00
No, I know.
1
SPEAKER_02
I would have been spraying all over myself.
1
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
1
SPEAKER_00
But did it feel intimate?
1
SPEAKER_02
Very.
1
SPEAKER_02
I wish I had my college email.
1
SPEAKER_02
I had.
1
SPEAKER_02
email love letters, endless.
1
SPEAKER_02
You re the most important thing that s ever happened to me.
1
SPEAKER_02
I don t remember the day before we met with multiple guys that are straight and married.
1
SPEAKER_02
Like love letters.
1
SPEAKER_01
Under the guise of friendship.
1
SPEAKER_02
Under the guise of brotherhood in Christ.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
1
SPEAKER_01
Intimacy.
1
SPEAKER_01
But you were about to say that you had a friend from college.
1
SPEAKER_02
I m back.
1
SPEAKER_02
God bless your continuity.
1
SPEAKER_02
So he said, don t you think that it was such a gift from God that he made you so socially
1
SPEAKER_02
relatable because you get so much intimacy from your friendships.
1
SPEAKER_02
You don t need to have sex.
1
SPEAKER_02
God designed you for this to be a beacon to other men afflicted with homosexuality.
1
SPEAKER_02
This is your chance to really be a leader, which that was feeding my best boy syndrome.
1
SPEAKER_02
And I m like, oh God, maybe he s right.
1
SPEAKER_00
And your ego probably.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
Be a leader of gay Christians.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_02
That experience of being a horny gay boy and realizing that A, you re in trouble and B, the church that is your community is going to reject you.
1
SPEAKER_02
The place where the best boy syndrome goes is to become a priest because, oh, I ll show you and I can marry God.
1
SPEAKER_02
That s what they do.
1
SPEAKER_02
So then it s like I m the best of the best.
1
SPEAKER_02
But repressed sexuality really always comes out sideways.
1
SPEAKER_01
Also, I have the most built in excuse of all time.
1
SPEAKER_01
I m celibate.
1
SPEAKER_02
Exactly.
1
SPEAKER_02
Bulletproof.
1
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_02
I always think of those hydraulic presses when you push something, push something, push something, and then they explode at the very end out the side.
1
SPEAKER_02
That is what happens to specifically repressed and oppressed sexuality because it s one of our primary wirings after breathing and eating.
1
SPEAKER_02
And it will take control in the driver s seat eventually.
1
SPEAKER_02
And it will destroy your life.
1
SPEAKER_02
Ugh.
1
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I don t know about y all.
1
SPEAKER_02
I did not get one birds and bees conversation.
1
SPEAKER_02
Did you?
1
SPEAKER_00
We had a book, you know, that cartoon drawing book that just sat on the shelf.
1
SPEAKER_00
The school gave you or your family gave you?
1
SPEAKER_00
No, it was on my family s shelf.
1
SPEAKER_00
But I don t even think they told me, hey, read this.
1
SPEAKER_00
It was just there for me to go look at if I wanted to.
1
SPEAKER_00
But no, I have zero memory of an actual conversation.
1
SPEAKER_01
How often were you in that book?
1
SPEAKER_00
I liked the book.
1
SPEAKER_02
I bet.
1
SPEAKER_00
I was kind of perverse.
1
SPEAKER_02
Oh, I was finding romance.
1
SPEAKER_02
There was one I would do anything to find, I would frame it.
1
SPEAKER_02
There was one romance novel that my mom had down on a shelf.
1
SPEAKER_02
It was like the two-third cover where there s a peekaboo of the woman and you open it and see the man.
1
SPEAKER_02
He was so gorgeous.
1
SPEAKER_02
Like, it was the unlocking.
1
SPEAKER_02
I m obsessed with the unlocking of young sexuality.
1
SPEAKER_02
My first crush was the
2
SPEAKER_00
rooster in Rock-A-Doodle.
2
SPEAKER_00
He was so hot, he was based on Elvis, and he was like, big barrel chest, he could sing, I was in love, I would watch that movie on repeat.
2
SPEAKER_00
Then I loved Balto, this is becoming a problem, which is a dog.
2
SPEAKER_00
Very sexy Alaskan dog.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, on a cartoon?
2
SPEAKER_00
Cartoon.
2
SPEAKER_02
Oh, okay, okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it was like the Iditarod movie.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, sure.
2
SPEAKER_02
By the way, I don t know any of these movies you re watching.
2
SPEAKER_02
Neither of those have rang a bell.
2
SPEAKER_01
You said Bolt?
2
SPEAKER_02
Balto.
2
SPEAKER_01
Oh, Balto.
2
SPEAKER_02
Don t know it.
2
SPEAKER_02
And the first one?
2
SPEAKER_00
Rockadoodle.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, what?
2
SPEAKER_00
These are Disney knockoffs.
2
SPEAKER_00
Remember the like, All Dogs Go to Heaven?
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
There was a disgruntled Disney animator who broke off and started his own.
2
SPEAKER_00
And there s like, Wizard of Nimh or whatever.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s like a, maybe that s it.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s like a dark, weird branch of animated movies in the late 80s.
2
SPEAKER_00
That made you horny as hell.
2
SPEAKER_01
Were you allowed to watch regular Disney movies?
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, you were.
2
SPEAKER_00
I wasn t allowed to watch The Simpsons or Married with Children, which there must have been some thing because every millennial kid has that same rule that was like raised by a religious family.
2
SPEAKER_00
What did they watch?
2
SPEAKER_00
That d be a good podcast research.
2
SPEAKER_00
What news story did they watch to make those two shows get blocked?
2
SPEAKER_02
You almost said 60 Minutes and that seems like the most likely suspect.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, I need to tell you, Dax, early in
2
SPEAKER_00
things that you ve deeply influenced me on.
2
SPEAKER_00
One of them being your love of 60 Minutes.
2
SPEAKER_00
Which, you know, 60 Minutes has been around forever, so I remember watching my grandparents watch it and being like, that s a no from me, dawg.
2
SPEAKER_00
Also, any show that starts with a stopwatch is basically like, you haven t got an hour left of this.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s counterintuitive.
2
SPEAKER_00
My golden compass of life.
2
SPEAKER_00
They are so good.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m obsessed with every decomposing anchor.
2
SPEAKER_00
They re at the front lines of every cool, interesting thing.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s the best reporting.
2
SPEAKER_02
And for 40 plus years now, it s insane how long the consistency has stayed good.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s unbelievable.
2
SPEAKER_00
And for those of you that don t know how to find CBS like me, their YouTube channel is lit.
2
SPEAKER_00
I just follow them on YouTube.
2
SPEAKER_00
Every story posted at length, 20 minutes, is on their YouTube channel.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, and do they have the archive?
2
SPEAKER_00
They feature ones from the archive, but I don t know how deep it goes.
2
SPEAKER_02
Well, Monica and I were just talking about this literally yesterday.
2
SPEAKER_02
I said, if there s a single reference that s most frequent for me, it s definitely 60 Minutes.
2
SPEAKER_02
That s the thing.
2
SPEAKER_02
I m constantly like, I saw a segment on Ted Turner in 99.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I like that they haven t tried to keep up with this new age.
2
SPEAKER_01
They re still boring in a good way.
2
SPEAKER_02
My only complaint is I want them to be investing in the future anchors a little better.
2
SPEAKER_02
They re not introducing new characters good enough for me that are youthful that are going to carry the torch.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m a little bit nervous.
2
SPEAKER_00
It is interesting.
2
SPEAKER_00
There may be a power dynamic there of just like legacy.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Sort of like what we have in politics right now.
2
SPEAKER_02
And I get it, you ve got all these ace gunslingers on the roster, and there s only three segments.
2
SPEAKER_00
And they re still doing great.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes, they re all- They re not like ebbity ebbity.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, they don t wanna be aegis, we should let them be- I know, it s just, yeah, you re not gonna tell Leslie Stahl, like, you don t have a segment this week because we got this new, but we do need to introduce the people that are gonna carry the torch.
2
SPEAKER_02
Because we don t wanna be in a Jeopardy situation.
2
SPEAKER_02
Right, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
Where it s just like, oh fuck, what do we do now?
2
SPEAKER_00
It s less about ageism and more about until that one doctor from Harvard figures out how to make us not age, there s a guaranteed sunset and it s like, let s keep the young blood in here.
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I just want to make sure that our longevity plan is in place.
2
SPEAKER_02
That s it.
2
SPEAKER_02
That s it for the program.
2
SPEAKER_02
The program s got to transcend all of these generations.
2
SPEAKER_01
Wait, what was your sexual awakening human-wise?
2
SPEAKER_01
Who did you see that was a human, not an animated animal?
2
SPEAKER_02
Can I set him up for a great one from the book?
2
SPEAKER_02
Because I think it s such a wonderful time to be horny.
2
SPEAKER_00
You were only in the Explorer.
2
SPEAKER_00
Oh, and the Firefighter?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
I got in a car accident on January 1st, 2003, which made me 21 or 20.
2
SPEAKER_00
Wait, I m so bad at this type of math.
2
SPEAKER_00
So if I was born- What year were you born?
2
SPEAKER_00
December 82.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
Did I turn 20 in 2002 or 2003?
2
2003.
2
SPEAKER_01
No, you turned- The end of 2002.
2
SPEAKER_00
You turned 20.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was 20.
2
SPEAKER_00
So in January 1, 2003, I was 20.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
2
SPEAKER_01
That is so hard for my mind.
2
SPEAKER_01
You had just turned 20.
2
SPEAKER_01
That is tricky because you re changing years.
2
SPEAKER_02
A December birthday is virtually like not being born in that year.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re really born in the next year.
2
SPEAKER_00
Okay, helpful.
2
SPEAKER_00
Let s think of you being born in whatever you say.
2
83.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I was 20 and had not had sex, had not kissed anyone.
2
SPEAKER_00
and had not been touched by anyone except my friends.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s also very much a wrestling culture.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t know if that s with all boys.
2
SPEAKER_00
As a little gay boy, I m like, let s wrestle all the time.
2
SPEAKER_00
Loved it.
2
SPEAKER_02
I spent most of my youth wrestling as well.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
And just being like, don t get a boner.
2
SPEAKER_00
That was where I practiced it.
2
SPEAKER_00
But anyway, I flipped this car.
2
SPEAKER_00
It was the extra car that my family had, which was just like no seatbelts, bald tires.
2
SPEAKER_00
No one worried about it.
2
SPEAKER_00
It was just like sitting there rotting.
2
SPEAKER_00
I came home from going to USC for Christmas in Nashville.
2
SPEAKER_00
I start driving around an S curve and the bald tire.
2
SPEAKER_00
I mean, of course, I m also 20.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t know anything about how anything works.
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t know what a bald tire is.
2
SPEAKER_02
You re paying attention to the song you re listening to.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes, which is Tori Amos.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the car fishtails and then goes perpendicular to the road.
2
SPEAKER_00
The tires catch.
2
SPEAKER_00
I go up the hill.
2
SPEAKER_00
because it was in, like, a canyon.
2
SPEAKER_00
Then I roll down.
2
SPEAKER_00
I break the windows with my head.
2
SPEAKER_00
Bing, bong, bing.
2
SPEAKER_00
There s no seatbelt, so I m being ripped from driver s seat to passenger seat back and forth, dragging my legs like a ragdoll.
2
SPEAKER_00
I crawl out covered in blood.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m fine, I think, but I m also in shock.
2
SPEAKER_00
Time is so confusing in those kind of moments.
2
SPEAKER_00
A firetruck appears.
2
SPEAKER_00
And from my memory, I only remember one, this gorgeous buff dream.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s standing over me, saving me, like, looking down at my face.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m laying on the ground.
2
SPEAKER_00
And he s like, I m here to help you.
2
SPEAKER_00
And he s giving me a full body massage because he s checking to see if I wince in pain because the shock has stopped me from being able to feel a broken bone.
2
SPEAKER_00
But if you squeeze it, I ll jerk.
2
SPEAKER_00
So anyway, he s massaging me up and down in the moment of what happened.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m just like.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is really nice.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is heaven.
2
SPEAKER_00
What a dream.
2
SPEAKER_01
Also, what a cliche.
2
SPEAKER_01
Hot fireman.
2
SPEAKER_00
Hot fireman.
2
SPEAKER_02
Oh, Tig s got a joke about that.
2
SPEAKER_01
Hot fireman, yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
She doesn t understand the attraction to men until she was carried by a firefighter out of her apartment.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, is it because A, they train all the time, and B, I would assume in most places, especially east of the Mississippi, there aren t that many fires, so there s lots of time to work out.
2
SPEAKER_00
And compare yourself with the other guy in the station.
2
SPEAKER_00
Same amount of car accidents.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think it s the bulk of their work.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re right, you re right.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s also that you re in distress and someone is saving.
2
SPEAKER_01
Like it s already heightened.
2
SPEAKER_02
It s true.
2
SPEAKER_02
But I will say it is also a sign of the intense repression that that s enough.
2
SPEAKER_02
You don t have anything relative to that.
2
SPEAKER_02
That s the apex of your physical intimacy with a man.
2
SPEAKER_02
So it is sparking some shit.
2
SPEAKER_02
Had you been hooking up with tons of dudes, if I had already been like handsome, but I don t think it would have been... Thrilling.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like something I deeply remember in a moment of crisis.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s exactly that.
2
SPEAKER_00
That was 10 years away from my first sexual experience.
2
SPEAKER_00
My first sex, which is so wild.
2
SPEAKER_00
But also, here s to late bloomers.
2
SPEAKER_00
I love being a late bloomer for many reasons.
2
SPEAKER_00
and also feel robbed.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s like a combination of things that I write about a lot.
2
SPEAKER_00
I got my teenage years and my twenties to really focus on my friendships and my career and my life.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I wasn t having traumatic sexual experiences and embarrassing things you re supposed to do, but I wasn t doing that.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I wasn t full of hormones and chemical.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was, and I was like taking that out on my male friends, LOL.
2
SPEAKER_00
But those years were wonderful.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then by the time I had my first kiss, which I was 28 at my first kiss, which was the day Osama bin Laden was killed, I remember it.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s not that it made me horny.
2
SPEAKER_02
It was random.
2
SPEAKER_02
Intertwining these traumatic experiences.
2
SPEAKER_00
Well, when something traumatic happens, the pores in the brain open to remember the scenario so it never happens again or does happen again.
2
SPEAKER_00
So it s like looking at everything really quickly to be like, OK, how do we do this again or how do we avoid this for the rest of our life?
2
SPEAKER_00
And you remember every detail.
2
SPEAKER_00
Which is why time slows down in a car accident.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Anyway, I remember having my first kiss on a beach in San Diego.
2
SPEAKER_02
Can you tell us, though, how do you, from the time you and I had lunch, where you re committed to stay this course, what happens between there and the first kiss?
2
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_02
Which didn t sneak up on you, I imagine.
2
SPEAKER_00
No.
2
SPEAKER_00
You had made the decision.
2
SPEAKER_00
It really happened my 27th year, where you see 30 down the barrel of a gun.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, in Topanga Canyon, they call this Saturn Return, 27 to 33.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, and you re evaluating all the stories that you were told that you tried to perfect in your 20s.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then you start to audit that scenario and say, does this work for my life?
2
SPEAKER_00
Because I have one and only life.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then you start to remove and see if you can throw the bathwater and keep the baby.
2
SPEAKER_00
27 to 33 is the refining season where you kind of step into who you really are.
2
SPEAKER_02
Ooh, I like this architecture.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, very true for me.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I didn t hear about it until after the fact.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was like, well, those dates line up perfectly.
2
SPEAKER_00
But I saw
2
SPEAKER_00
30 down the barrel of a gun.
2
SPEAKER_00
And at 27, I fell in love, psycho cross-eyed in love with one of my best friends who was 20 at the time.
2
SPEAKER_00
And he didn t know I was gay.
2
SPEAKER_00
And this was now a pattern that I could recognize.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now I d done that six times or something.
2
SPEAKER_00
And it was the most painful love.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I had the wherewithal to know, oh, this isn t just your best friend.
2
SPEAKER_00
You re in love with him.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m not shitting you.
2
SPEAKER_00
I saw myself at 67 being a priest and just losing control.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I just saw my life and I go, this cannot be my life.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s a powder keg.
2
SPEAKER_00
You just finally live long enough to see the pattern.
2
SPEAKER_00
And you re just like, fuck this.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I still was very much in the, I want to follow God vibes.
2
SPEAKER_00
I was stepping back from dogma and I was more, I believe in God, but we ll see.
2
SPEAKER_00
It can t be the version that I was.
2
SPEAKER_00
It cannot be exactly the version.
2
SPEAKER_00
And there were some progressive Christian writers like Brian McLaren and Richard Rohr who I was reading.
3
SPEAKER_00
that were very influential to me and they were very pro-gay.
3
SPEAKER_00
Then I went to a Exodus International meeting to try to gay convert.
3
SPEAKER_01
You did?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_01
Wait, what s an Exodus?
3
SPEAKER_00
So Exodus International is a now debunked, it was a gay conversion camp slash they had meetings around America and it was to heal you from being gay.
3
SPEAKER_01
You did this at what age?
3
27, 26, 27.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_00
You went.
3
SPEAKER_00
I didn t go to a camp.
3
SPEAKER_00
I went to a meeting in Venice Beach at a church.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I went.
3
SPEAKER_00
So a friend of mine, his mother was like, oh, one of my dear friends was living in the gay lifestyle and he had lots of gay butt sex.
3
SPEAKER_00
And now he s married to a woman with two kids.
3
SPEAKER_00
At that time, I was like, that s my dream.
3
SPEAKER_00
I don t want to be this way because it might cost me things.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I go and meet this guy and I go into his house.
3
SPEAKER_00
It was very interesting.
3
SPEAKER_00
He had this perfect life, this gorgeous house in Orange County on the water in the lagoon, this beautiful wife, two kids.
3
SPEAKER_00
And when I showed up, he knew what he was doing.
3
SPEAKER_00
He was taking me to this meeting.
3
SPEAKER_00
There was a look on his face like there was an invisible gun to his head.
3
SPEAKER_00
There was no sparkle in his eye.
3
SPEAKER_00
There was no like, let s go give you a great life.
3
SPEAKER_00
Just someone white knuckling it through life.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
He takes me to this meeting and I m already, I m already energetically absorbing his energy and it is bad.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s not the future you want.
3
SPEAKER_00
But I m thinking that s my best case scenario is that white knuckled life.
3
SPEAKER_00
So then I go in there and
3
SPEAKER_00
The whole fucking room is that energy.
3
SPEAKER_00
And there s worship, there s singing songs, and the guy gets up there.
3
SPEAKER_00
No, I want everyone to come forward.
3
SPEAKER_00
I want you to scream out and say the name of the person that molested you that made you this way and forgive them.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I was never molested.
3
SPEAKER_02
Right.
3
SPEAKER_00
Everything was great.
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, sure, my parents divorced, but my dad is amazing and raised me great.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so I m like, oh, I wasn t molested.
3
SPEAKER_00
But then people are slowly trickling up, some are not.
3
SPEAKER_00
The energy in the room was so zombie.
3
SPEAKER_00
And there s a verse in the Bible that Jesus says, which is, I come to bring you life and life abundant, and you will know the truth by the fruit it bears.
3
SPEAKER_00
If something bears bad fruit, it is not from me. 
3
SPEAKER_00
That verse came into my head like a lightning bolt.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, this is bad fruit.
3
SPEAKER_00
This is rotten.
3
SPEAKER_00
That was such a defining moment.
3
SPEAKER_00
I had to go all in to realize that at the very bottom of the lake, you ricochet back up.
3
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t keep going.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I had to prove that to myself.
3
SPEAKER_01
Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert.
3
SPEAKER_01
If you dare.
3
SPEAKER_01
I can t help but be distracted by what I ve seen in AA, which is very common for people to meet in AA and they re hanging out by a friend, they find someone else, they get along great.
3
SPEAKER_01
They get this notion of like, nah, it s a bummer we never partied together.
3
SPEAKER_01
You often see people go out in pairs and it s so fucking explosive.
3
SPEAKER_01
Obviously you both met in recovery.
3
SPEAKER_01
I imagine this group having a peel-offs occasionally.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s just the wildest fucking in a hotel.
3
SPEAKER_01
Shame induced, high octane.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, and shame induced sex is so interesting.
3
SPEAKER_00
had a lot of gay experiences with men who love the kink, they love the shame, they love the intensity of it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I have never been ashamed of being gay.
3
SPEAKER_00
I liked who I was and I was just trying.
3
SPEAKER_00
I used to always say this, my one life personal experience does not necessarily trump 3,000 years of tradition.
3
SPEAKER_00
There must be something I m missing.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now, there isn t really 3,000 years of tradition.
3
SPEAKER_00
This kind of anti-homosexual thing is less than 1,000 years old, but this is what I was taught.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I was just trying to defer to the elders.
3
SPEAKER_00
Also, the Bible verse, the heart is deceitful above all things, is such a fucking virus.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, seriously.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because it makes you doubt the truth of your heart so much.
3
SPEAKER_00
of a shame-based religion that leans on, you are wretched and we re here to make you care.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like so mimetic and it s so viral and sad.
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, we are really, really designed to be prone and vulnerable to shame because it s how we make sure we don t get excluded.
3
SPEAKER_01
We feel it easily.
3
SPEAKER_01
We feel it deeply.
3
SPEAKER_01
The stakes are high.
3
SPEAKER_01
We re wired for it.
3
SPEAKER_01
So if you offer somebody something that plays on that hard wiring, it s pretty sticky.
3
SPEAKER_00
Do you think, how do I say this in another way, because I m so tired of the bankrupt term cancel culture, but that is a shame based reaction.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s like so fun to shame somebody and exclude them from the tribe.
3
SPEAKER_00
And it s our fear that trend or whatever that social media provides us is something we ve always done.
3
SPEAKER_00
But I feel like it s mitigated by face to face, like you don t heckle.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, but then in every old book, there s like the mob with the pitchforks and they re loving it.
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, I think once you take on the identity of the group, your own individual morality is silenced.
3
SPEAKER_01
I think if you re joining this group, it feels like consensus.
3
SPEAKER_01
Everyone seems to agree on this.
3
SPEAKER_01
I feel bolstered by the consensus.
3
SPEAKER_00
I remember the first time I ever really felt that was after the election of Trump and just the liberal panic and the women s march and the clarity of like Republicans are evil was so viscerally clear.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then the moral panic and the incredible uprising of 2020 of Black Lives Matter.
3
SPEAKER_00
I remember I was like, wow, there is something going on in the air where I can taste it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that was probably also exacerbated by we were all trapped in our houses and just ready to explode.
3
SPEAKER_02
Well, it s happening right now.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s happening right now.
3
SPEAKER_00
I feel it very deeply.
3
SPEAKER_00
Another opportunity to declare.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
And the declare is demanded.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yes, it s required.
3
SPEAKER_01
The middle path is not welcomed.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s very triggering to me.
3
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, me too.
3
SPEAKER_01
Me too.
3
SPEAKER_01
If you re not with us, you re against us.
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, hold on.
3
SPEAKER_00
Hold on.
3
SPEAKER_00
Hold on.
3
SPEAKER_00
Hold on.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, what was your reaction to 9-11?
3
SPEAKER_01
I m lucky enough to have journaled.
3
SPEAKER_01
There would be what I thought was my reaction, but I actually wrote about four pages the day after.
3
SPEAKER_01
I guess depending on where you land on the spectrum, this will sound like a big brag, but my whole four pages was, oh no, this is terrible, and I m afraid we won t make the best out of this.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I think it s gonna be an excuse for the government to take a lot of control, and I think it s gonna justify a lot of violence.
3
SPEAKER_00
Were you at UCLA or were you done?
3
SPEAKER_01
I was one year out.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s the most beautiful moment of experience on this planet in my lifetime, which is I went to 7-Eleven and 7-Eleven was packed and it was dead quiet in there.
3
SPEAKER_01
And people were trying to allow others to get in front of them in line.
3
SPEAKER_01
There was the deepest sense of unity that I had ever experienced.
3
SPEAKER_01
We all felt like, oh boy, here we go.
3
SPEAKER_01
We re in something now and you re my brother and we re teammates now.
3
SPEAKER_01
So everyone was being so courteous, like in a very palpable, specific way.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I remember observing it, enjoying it, being disheartened that it takes this for that.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then I just saw that immediate fire up of the vitriol.
3
SPEAKER_01
And mind you, I m a shallow person.
3
SPEAKER_01
If someone hurts my family, I m going to kill everyone.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I m not saying I m above any of that.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was immediately apprehensive of where this was going.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I will say, you just don t know what decision led to what.
3
SPEAKER_01
Maybe it was the perfect decision.
3
SPEAKER_01
All the decisions were made.
3
SPEAKER_01
Maybe they were perfect.
3
SPEAKER_01
I don t know.
3
SPEAKER_00
Well, as Sapolsky says, there s no free will, so who cares?
3
SPEAKER_00
I mean, everyone cares, but it s just happening.
3
SPEAKER_01
What I do know is there was a moment on planet Earth where everyone in the world was on our side, save maybe Afghanistan or the Taliban.
3
SPEAKER_01
And we had a moment where everyone was watching and everyone felt for us.
3
SPEAKER_01
And we could have done something that s never been done in history.
3
SPEAKER_01
We could have taken the $2.8 trillion we ended up spending to kill those people, and we could have inundated them with opportunity.
3
SPEAKER_01
I just think that would have been the most insane historical example that could have happened.
3
SPEAKER_01
There s no will for it to happen, but I guess to me it seemed like a little bit of an opportunity lost.
3
SPEAKER_00
Are you familiar with Thomas Friedman?
3
SPEAKER_02
I recognize it.
3
SPEAKER_00
So he is one of the major columnists for the New York Times, and he is one of the most respected people in understanding the Israeli-Palestinian Middle Eastern, and he s been doing that for like 40 years.
3
SPEAKER_00
Anyway, they had him on one of his podcasts.
3
SPEAKER_00
And in this moment, when it s very either or, and the world is very busy and confusing and painful, and I have very dear friends who are screaming on both sides.
3
SPEAKER_00
Saying, people I love.
3
SPEAKER_00
People I love.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I want to agree with them, and I want to agree with you.
3
SPEAKER_00
If I say one thing, then I m hurting the other one horribly.
3
SPEAKER_00
And by not saying something, they re DMing me, what s wrong with you?
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, your silence is deafening, yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
This man s clarity, you should get him as a guest on this show, and also to hear him speak is so delicious.
3
SPEAKER_00
Every neural pathway is paved.
3
SPEAKER_00
Like smooth pavement.
3
SPEAKER_00
Fresh asphalt.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
It is unbelievable to hear him explain the dynamics, what s going on, who did what, and it feels so even.
3
SPEAKER_02
I want to add something to the 9-11 thing, though, because I feel like it was unified.
3
SPEAKER_02
But for me, it was scary.
3
SPEAKER_00
Oh, my God.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s fine if I m at school because people know me at school.
3
SPEAKER_02
But if we re at the grocery store, then people don t know.
3
SPEAKER_02
And they re looking.
3
SPEAKER_02
If I speak, it s OK because I have an American accent.
3
SPEAKER_02
But then if my dad speaks.
3
SPEAKER_02
God forbid you get on a plane.
3
SPEAKER_02
Exactly.
3
SPEAKER_02
If my dad speaks and people are wondering.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I guess I m glad we don t wear hijab.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, or a turban.
3
SPEAKER_02
I m hyper-evaluating fear in that time.
3
SPEAKER_02
In addition to being like, oh my God, my country was attacked.
3
SPEAKER_02
So for me anyway, it was definitely not as simple.
3
SPEAKER_00
It was very simple for me.
3
SPEAKER_00
I was a white kid who grew up in Middle Tennessee, exclusively white in my neighborhood.
4
SPEAKER_00
My school was entirely white except for two Japanese exchange students.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then I moved to USC.
4
SPEAKER_00
This was the second week of college.
4
SPEAKER_00
I had just moved to the big city.
4
SPEAKER_00
I ve never seen so many brown and black people in my life.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m amazed.
4
SPEAKER_00
This is exactly what I wanted.
4
SPEAKER_00
But then this happens, 9-11, and I was raised Republican.
4
SPEAKER_00
It was so clear to me that it was good guys versus bad guys.
4
SPEAKER_00
The American flag was so cool to see.
4
SPEAKER_00
I was like, this is what they felt like in World War II.
4
SPEAKER_00
I felt that for a little while, but I remember seeing protests about American imperialism and seeing just little blips of someone being like, why would they hate you this much to organize this much to destroy you?
4
SPEAKER_00
And what are terrorists up to?
4
SPEAKER_00
The little sprinkle of, but why?
4
SPEAKER_02
Well, and then also.
4
SPEAKER_02
As time goes on, learning that our previous actions in Afghanistan actually were seeds we planted, and this is what we sowed.
4
SPEAKER_02
We funded the Mujahedin and we made Osama bin Laden a real leader.
4
SPEAKER_02
We did that.
4
SPEAKER_02
We did that.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
So then it gets more and more complicated.
4
SPEAKER_01
We also created ISIS in the wake of 9-11.
4
SPEAKER_01
We created more terrorism on accident, but we did do it.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and again, I m not clairvoyant.
4
SPEAKER_02
I m not saying we didn t do the right thing.
4
SPEAKER_02
I don t know.
4
SPEAKER_02
The thing I proposed, maybe that wouldn t have worked, but I just know that we re in a 3,000 year cycle of tribal warfare.
4
SPEAKER_02
So we know what retaliation looks like and we ve never tried the explosion of love and generosity in the wake of that.
4
SPEAKER_02
And I just get curious.
4
SPEAKER_02
And then you go to the meeting and you leave there and that s the moment that you re kind of convicted that you are going to act on it.
4
SPEAKER_00
The way that I would describe it is the world is not suddenly covered in snow.
4
SPEAKER_00
It starts snowing and then you are busy doing housework and then you look out the window and you re like, oh my God, it s white outside.
4
SPEAKER_00
But it s snowing the whole time.
4
SPEAKER_00
I very much feel that the crack in the pavement began and it just started spreading.
4
SPEAKER_00
One thing led to another thing and led to another thing.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then really the exodus international of it all.
4
SPEAKER_00
Just the crisis of like, I cannot do this.
4
SPEAKER_00
You know, you soft launch, especially for a queer kid.
4
SPEAKER_00
I remember telling my girlfriends in San Diego, we were all just being fabulous, and I said, I think I m ready to date.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I had never said that.
4
SPEAKER_00
They, of course, had all clucked, you know, in the background for five years.
4
SPEAKER_00
They go, Oh my God.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then, you know, one girl goes, I ve got a guy for you.
4
SPEAKER_00
And the saying is, if you turn about two degrees, you don t notice, but in a few hours, you re 50 miles off course.
4
SPEAKER_00
Cause that s major.
4
SPEAKER_00
So just that slight turn of, I think I m ready to date.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then, and I still struggle with this.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s hard for me to tell if someone s flirting with me, unless they like grab my dick.
4
SPEAKER_00
because I m so friendly and I ve been so friend-zoning myself forever for safety reasons that if someone s flirting with me, I just think, yeah, I m fun.
4
SPEAKER_00
Of course you re talking to me.
4
SPEAKER_01
I have this issue a little bit as well.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
Why wouldn t you talk to me?
4
SPEAKER_00
I m great.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
You have it really bad.
4
SPEAKER_02
I ve observed many interactions and we walk away, I m like, the dude loves you.
4
SPEAKER_02
And she s like, no.
4
SPEAKER_02
I m like, well, no, we re just chatting.
4
SPEAKER_02
People aren t interested in people like that.
4
SPEAKER_02
That s just not how it works.
4
SPEAKER_02
When you re horny for somebody, you re very interested.
4
SPEAKER_00
It is still, to this day, so hard for me to believe that.
4
SPEAKER_00
But I have a lot of internalized body shame and fear.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, it is hard for me to believe someone thinks I m sexy.
4
SPEAKER_00
Even when they are, like, motorboating my hairy chest and they re, like, they re obsessed.
4
SPEAKER_00
I am like, what is wrong with you?
4
SPEAKER_02
Well, that s the second stage of it, which Monica also has is, well, you must be lower status than I thought because you really do like me.
4
SPEAKER_01
What s wrong with you if you like me?
4
SPEAKER_00
I know, it s so...
4
SPEAKER_00
I have a whole nother fucking conversation that I have about over-therapization of just, okay, what happens when you know all the things and you re still doing it?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, why can t we just live?
4
SPEAKER_00
The most uneducated dumb people I know are like yucking with their third kid and thriving in the country and their beautiful wife.
4
SPEAKER_00
Anyway, let me find what the hell I was talking about.
4
SPEAKER_02
Your girlfriend s clock.
4
SPEAKER_00
Oh, so they re so excited.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then my friend, Brady Bollinger, he saw me interact with this gay guy that I had met.
4
SPEAKER_00
And he goes, that guy is obsessed with you.
4
SPEAKER_00
I think I invited him over to like a group hang.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I just wanted to meet him because he was the chaplain of the Point Loma Christian school, but he was gay and that was like famous.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, I want to know a gay Christian.
4
SPEAKER_00
He comes over.
4
SPEAKER_00
I think nothing.
4
SPEAKER_00
And Brady s like, he is obsessed with you.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I go, what?
4
SPEAKER_00
No, he s not.
4
SPEAKER_00
He s like, he wouldn t stop staring at you.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m like truly blank about it.
4
SPEAKER_00
You and Monica need to go on a journey.
4
SPEAKER_01
You need to go back to that place you went to, the conversion.
4
SPEAKER_00
So anyway, thank God for Brady.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m on the train down from LA back to San Diego.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m getting in at 1030 at night.
4
SPEAKER_00
This is 2010, I think.
4
SPEAKER_00
So it s before Uber.
4
SPEAKER_00
And you know, normally I would have a friend pick me up.
4
SPEAKER_00
San Diego train station is so easy, but it s a little
4
SPEAKER_00
boy likes me, he would want to pick me up.
4
SPEAKER_00
So I text him and I go, Hey, I m getting in on the train at 10 30.
4
SPEAKER_00
Are you free?
4
SPEAKER_00
He goes, I m buying a bottle of wine right now.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m taking you to my secret beach.
4
SPEAKER_02
Oh my God.
4
SPEAKER_02
He went right bullseye.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it is the best secret beach.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s like truly I m douching now.
4
SPEAKER_00
I ll pick you up in 15 minutes.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then, so I m like, oh my God, he does like me.
4
SPEAKER_00
Right then, I get a push notification on my phone, Osama bin Laden s been killed.
4
SPEAKER_00
And then there was one news site back in the day, 2010, that had live feed news on your phone, and it was Al Jazeera.
4
SPEAKER_00
I turned it on, boom, it s Obama walking out.
4
SPEAKER_00
Someone stood up on the train and yelled- Tonight at 12, 13 p.m.
4
SPEAKER_02
Wow.
4
SPEAKER_02
We killed Osama bin Laden.
4
SPEAKER_02
Monica hates when I do him, but I think it s pretty good.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s very good.
4
SPEAKER_02
Thank you.
4
SPEAKER_02
Jed Nile, I hope you kiss tonight.
4
SPEAKER_01
The problem is, because then it won t stop.
4
SPEAKER_02
Jed, if you can hear me, I hope you kiss tonight.
4
SPEAKER_02
You deserve to.
4
SPEAKER_02
I killed him for you.
4
SPEAKER_02
He represented everything that stood in your way.
4
SPEAKER_00
That is very much what I heard.
4
SPEAKER_00
And that was the moment that I was like, oh my God, I ve been kissed.
4
SPEAKER_02
And you went to a beach and you drank wine and had a kiss.
4
SPEAKER_02
This sounds pretty, it s worth the wait a little bit.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I remember while I m kissing him, I was like, I m so glad this isn t my 15 year old.
4
SPEAKER_00
brain is so grateful and so here, and I know who I am.
4
SPEAKER_00
You weren t panicked.
4
SPEAKER_01
That is nice.
4
SPEAKER_00
I just liked it.
4
SPEAKER_00
It was very sweet.
4
SPEAKER_00
I love that.
4
SPEAKER_02
I wish we had video of that kiss.
4
SPEAKER_02
I know, rigged cameras.
4
SPEAKER_02
Rob, do we have any video of this I can watch?
4
SPEAKER_02
Okay, now let s talk about your parents a little bit, because one of the sales pitches about Jed before you meet him, it precedes you.
4
SPEAKER_02
It certainly did with Kristen, my friend Jedediah Jenkins.
4
SPEAKER_02
His father was, we ve even talked about it on here.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, we called you.
4
SPEAKER_01
I see you on Connie s episode.
4
SPEAKER_02
His father is what Forrest Gump was based on, which is a very funny thing to hear.
4
SPEAKER_02
You re like, what part?
4
SPEAKER_02
Damaged legs, struggles in school.
4
SPEAKER_01
Lots of options, we don t need to go through them all.
4
SPEAKER_02
Fell in love with someone who died.
4
SPEAKER_00
My father did have blood braces when he was born.
4
SPEAKER_00
Oh wow.
4
SPEAKER_00
Interesting, I ve never made that connection.
4
SPEAKER_00
But the part that is loosely... Forrest Gump, you know, it s touching on all these major moments of American history and somehow Forrest Gump was in the middle of all of them.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s like the delicious idea of that movie.
4
SPEAKER_00
So there s the part of the movie that you may remember where Forrest Gump runs across America, back and forth, and then like all these people accumulate and he s got this long beard and this like hat and all of America s cheering him on for doing this.
4
SPEAKER_02
Doesn t he wipe his face and then be happy or something?
4
SPEAKER_00
And it creates this smiley face, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s such a genius story.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s so good.
4
SPEAKER_02
That movie holds up, I think.
4
SPEAKER_02
God, I love a rewatch.
4
SPEAKER_02
It s darker than you remember.
4
SPEAKER_02
I watched it with Lincoln and we loved it, but I had a lot of explaining to do about... Yeah, Jenny.
4
SPEAKER_02
Jenny.
4
SPEAKER_02
Why are they burning her house down?
4
SPEAKER_02
Well, her dad molested her.
4
SPEAKER_02
Why is she dying?
4
SPEAKER_02
She has AIDS.
4
SPEAKER_02
She was an intervening drug user.
4
SPEAKER_02
You gotta get him on some major shit.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s true.
4
SPEAKER_02
Why is the principal going in the mom s house?
4
SPEAKER_02
Because he s fucking the mom so that he can go to school.
4
SPEAKER_02
Wow.
4
SPEAKER_02
I said it much softer, but I had to explain all that.
4
SPEAKER_02
There s a lot to explain.
4
SPEAKER_00
Anyway, that scene is based on the phenomenon of my parents walked across America in the 70s.
4
SPEAKER_00
Back then, you know, it was very monoculture.
4
SPEAKER_00
There s three channels.
4
SPEAKER_00
If something s happening, everyone knows about it.
4
SPEAKER_02
You got Time Magazine, you got National Geographic.
4
SPEAKER_00
And they were on the cover of National Geographic.
4
SPEAKER_00
wrote books about it, A Walk Across America and The Walk West, and it sold like 12 million copies, which now the biggest book sells 1 million copies.
4
SPEAKER_02
I was gonna say, I think McConaughey s got the most successful memoir of the last 30 years and it sold 3 million.
4
SPEAKER_02
So even today when I read that it had sold 12 million, I m like, that s insane.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it was insane.
4
SPEAKER_00
So I grew up in the shadow of parents who had done something major.
4
SPEAKER_00
But I also grew up in the shadow of parents who divorced when I was very young, and their love story was very Brangelina.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, loved.
4
SPEAKER_00
Although I guess Brangelina was controversial.
4
SPEAKER_00
What s a loved?
4
SPEAKER_01
Started out controversial.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
But they were darlings of America.
4
SPEAKER_02
Maybe Will and Amy.
4
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
Oh, oh my God.
4
SPEAKER_02
We re still with ball.
4
SPEAKER_02
No one was the bad guy.
4
SPEAKER_02
It was just like, they liked him as a couple.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
So they divorced when I was very young.
4
SPEAKER_00
I don t remember the divorce.
4
SPEAKER_00
I don t remember the drama.
4
SPEAKER_00
So much of it was tied to their relationship that the book deals kind of dried up.
4
SPEAKER_00
The speaking engagements dried up.
4
SPEAKER_00
So I kind of grew up in a fallen Camelot energy, but my dad lived on a farm and he was like a gentleman farmer.
4
SPEAKER_00
And like always, we were feeding the cows.
4
SPEAKER_00
It was a very fun way to grow up.
4
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experiences where you just blow it out the water and then everyone remembers you for that thing, which is a very interesting fame conversation.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m sure you ve had it many times on this show where an artist or someone can accidentally hit the zeitgeist so hard that they re cursed like
5
SPEAKER_01
Daniel Radcliffe.
5
SPEAKER_01
You can make the best movie ever, and it s so unlikely that people are ever gonna stop calling you Harry.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_02
Like, how annoying.
5
SPEAKER_02
No, he would have to be in a franchise of equal size.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
5
SPEAKER_01
Good luck.
5
SPEAKER_01
So, anyway, Monoculture, that was a very cool moment of the Forrest Gump movie, because that was something that I understood of like, oh.
5
SPEAKER_01
Wow, that s cool.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, was there a little bit of a heyday when that movie came out?
5
SPEAKER_02
Did it kind of bolster?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I mean, there was some chatter, but I was 12.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m sure my dad did some interviews, but it was also hurtful to my mom, again, because my mom isn t featured in that at all.
5
SPEAKER_00
Right, I was just gonna say, because we already said, like, your dad, your dad, and you re saying your dad and your mom did it.
5
SPEAKER_00
They wrote it together.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and they did the walk together.
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, the second half of the walk together.
5
SPEAKER_01
He walked from New York to New Orleans first.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yes, met her, and they walked across the West for three years.
5
SPEAKER_01
A big impetus of my new book is understanding my mom s experience on the walk because I always felt that it s like, oh, your dad s doing another college commencement speech.
5
SPEAKER_01
No one even knows who I am.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
5
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And he s the one whose infidelity caused us to get a divorce.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m over here raising three kids by myself.
5
SPEAKER_01
Right.
5
SPEAKER_01
And he s now the hero.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I grew up with that taste.
5
SPEAKER_01
I just wanted to know what it was like.
5
SPEAKER_01
And she had enough distance and she s thriving in her seventies.
5
SPEAKER_01
Maybe she could
5
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talk about it without the sting, because she was very good about not bad-mouthing my dad growing up.
5
SPEAKER_01
So admirable.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s so difficult now, knowing how gnarly it was.
5
SPEAKER_01
And we lived in a small town south of Nashville called Columbia, and they were the celebs.
5
SPEAKER_01
The Columbia Herald would post their divorce
5
SPEAKER_01
proceedings, they had like a reporter in the- Oh my God.
5
SPEAKER_01
Because my dad fought her for custody.
5
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I was little, but it was nasty.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
All these things I don t know.
5
SPEAKER_01
So interesting way of being raised where my parents were always home because they were writers.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I don t know what it s like to have a parent go to work.
5
SPEAKER_02
Right.
5
SPEAKER_02
And your dad was just kind of independently wealthy at this point.
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, they had made good money from the books, but then the book deals dried up.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so by the time my brain was online, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12,
5
SPEAKER_01
We did not have money, but they had big farms and we had a nice house, but going to Applebee s was once a week, and that was fancy after church, and going to the movies was a big deal.
5
SPEAKER_01
No planes, flew nowhere, camped.
5
SPEAKER_01
I grew up cutting coupons, but I would just hear the faint stories of, back when they sent us a limousine to drive us to Amy Grant s house for the, like, Good Morning America interview.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, what are they talking about?
5
SPEAKER_02
Yes, yes, yes.
5
SPEAKER_01
Now in my adult life, I have a scarcity mentality with money to where I want to keep my expenses so low.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like I live in a 600 square foot cabin in Beechwood.
5
SPEAKER_01
My car is paid off cash.
5
SPEAKER_01
I have no debt because I m always like the book deals could dry up.
5
SPEAKER_01
I have friends who are very successful.
5
SPEAKER_01
The hedonic treadmill is so interesting to observe from below it where their life becomes so expensive that they re stressed again.
5
SPEAKER_01
Their monthly output is my annual input, and they re stressed about keeping it there, keeping it there.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s unavoidable.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s the way the human brain works, but it s so interesting to observe from this city.
5
SPEAKER_00
Do you think that experience put a premium on fame?
5
SPEAKER_00
Like, was it something that you then thought, I want that?
5
SPEAKER_02
Or that you could sense it was missed?
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that it s a real thing that can happen because they have experienced it, but it s also elusive.
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, I grew up where my parents, I didn t think about it.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like they weren t famous to my friends.
5
SPEAKER_01
My peers didn t care who they were.
5
SPEAKER_02
And people in restaurants weren t stopping.
5
SPEAKER_01
No, never, never, never.
5
SPEAKER_00
But how s worse though, if they have that story where you re hearing about this remember when fantasy time before you, by the way, so it s like this glamorized time.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
I remember as a young kid, and maybe this is common, I cared about being rich.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I remember my brain was always like, if I could get a million dollars once, then I could live on $30,000 a year for this many years.
5
SPEAKER_01
I have the exact same brain.
5
SPEAKER_02
I know that she was always going to drop.
5
SPEAKER_02
So I got to be safe.
5
SPEAKER_02
You re hiding your identity.
5
SPEAKER_02
Everything is like, this is illusion of you could achieve something tangible that would alleviate all fear.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
I d be so curious about the imposter syndrome of your minds, because for mine, it was so predicated on my sexuality and the gotcha fear of someone finding out.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like if someone finds out who I really am, they re gone.
5
SPEAKER_01
Gone, gone, gone.
5
SPEAKER_01
Cause back in the day in the nineties, if someone was outed as gay, it was done.
5
SPEAKER_01
You were so fucked.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so that s the world I m growing up and I m so fearful of it.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I know that I am.
5
SPEAKER_01
I know what the word is.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so every friendship I make is one day they re going to find out and leave me.
5
SPEAKER_01
even my family, one day they re going to find out and leave me.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I have this, how can I be okay?
5
SPEAKER_01
That s them waiting for the shoe to drop, which I think is a big reason why I m like a confessional memoirist.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I want to say everything all the time to everybody.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I tested that over the years, people like me still, and they still want to be in my life and they love me and they deeply love me.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so
5
SPEAKER_01
It s almost an act of rebellion to be completely a wide open book.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
5
SPEAKER_02
And specifically, I would argue, and I think this is something we both do is beat you to the discovery of our selfishness or our triteness or our vanity.
5
SPEAKER_02
Like, I m going to be ahead of you in this.
5
SPEAKER_02
There s no gotcha moment.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
5
SPEAKER_01
The fear of the gotcha is like so much.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think a lot of people behave that way romantically.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s like,
5
SPEAKER_01
you re going to realize I m not that great, so let me just fuck this up now.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, preemptively.
5
SPEAKER_02
OK, so that s the story of your parents.
5
SPEAKER_02
And what obviously compounds your relationship with your mother is that she still is deeply religious and conservative.
5
SPEAKER_02
I also want to say, for the record, I ve hung out with your mom in her kitchen in Nashville, and she s awesome.
5
SPEAKER_02
She is the best thing.
5
SPEAKER_02
She s fucking awesome.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
5
SPEAKER_02
It s so obvious where you get your charisma up front.
5
SPEAKER_02
Well, I ve never met your dad.
5
SPEAKER_02
He s probably quite charismatic as well.
5
SPEAKER_02
But your mother is a party.
5
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
5
SPEAKER_02
She s so inclusive and inviting and warm and hospitable and wonderful.
5
SPEAKER_02
But she also believes you should drink colloidal silver and she has different politics than you.
5
SPEAKER_01
On the key beliefs, political, religious, philosophical, we re so divergent.
5
SPEAKER_01
And really the thing that I ve fought for my whole life is my sexuality.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like, let me love who I want to love.
5
SPEAKER_01
I came from such a world where that was not okay.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I ve moved into such a world where it is so okay.
5
SPEAKER_01
I love being gay.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think it s very cool.
5
SPEAKER_01
It is a party.
5
SPEAKER_01
I have no notes.
5
SPEAKER_01
I have notes.
5
SPEAKER_01
But it s great.
5
SPEAKER_01
But there is this deep, sincere dream of a child
5
SPEAKER_01
to be not only loved by your parent, but liked and approved of.
5
SPEAKER_01
I know parents that love their children, but do not like them.
5
SPEAKER_01
They re like, this person is annoying.
5
SPEAKER_01
And they re saying this drunken in their honesty, but they do not like it.
5
SPEAKER_01
And the kid can feel that.
5
SPEAKER_01
They can feel unconditional love, but they can feel lack of like.
5
SPEAKER_01
They can be liked and approved of.
5
SPEAKER_01
They could be a successful doctor and this and that, and they love them, but they do not like their kid s personality.
5
SPEAKER_01
My mother
5
SPEAKER_01
loves me unconditionally.
5
SPEAKER_01
And is charmed by you.
5
SPEAKER_01
And is charmed and likes me so much.
5
SPEAKER_01
We have the best hangs.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s great.
5
SPEAKER_01
But she does not approve of my worldview.
5
SPEAKER_01
So it s this really interesting, like I crave the next level.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m like, give it to me.
5
SPEAKER_01
But I keep always diminishing the intensity of the lack of approval, A, because I hate confrontation, and B, I m a tragic optimist.
5
SPEAKER_01
But the day you get married, the person you choose to spend your life with, that s meant to be one of the best days of your life.
5
SPEAKER_01
and the fact that she s not gonna be there is so heartbreaking to me.
5
SPEAKER_01
But...
5
SPEAKER_01
No, but, it just is.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m hearing- Gabor.
5
SPEAKER_00
Gabor.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
No, but.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s a bummer.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s such a bummer.
5
SPEAKER_01
She s my favorite person.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
The origin of this book, Mother Nature- Mother, comma, nature.
5
SPEAKER_01
Mother, comma, nature, was A, just when your mom turns 70, it s weird.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s like an old lady.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
And my mom is very vivacious.
5
SPEAKER_01
She ll live to be 140.
5
SPEAKER_01
Pull that fucking silver- Colloidal silver, like fucking works.
5
SPEAKER_01
No, so many of her witches brew things work, or, you know, it s probably just her DNA, but how annoying.
5
SPEAKER_01
Placebo, but works.
5
SPEAKER_01
But the feeling of her power over me still, I m 40 years old.
5
SPEAKER_02
I think we should say too, for the record, your father, in a very dad-like moment, said to you, out of nowhere, while showing you the house he was building, by the way, if you get married to a man, I would love to walk you down the aisle.
5
SPEAKER_02
Now, let s move on.
5
SPEAKER_02
So this beam... And he did not look me in the eye.
5
SPEAKER_01
He was shoulder to shoulder, middle of showing me, like, a wood beam.
5
SPEAKER_01
And he just says it randomly.
5
SPEAKER_01
And what was so funny is I have so many protective measures up against sentimentality over my own desires.
5
SPEAKER_01
that I would have never even asked for that permission.
5
SPEAKER_00
I wouldn t have thought to.
5
SPEAKER_01
But the moment he did, it unlocked something that was so emotional to me.
5
SPEAKER_02
I wanted to point that out.
5
SPEAKER_02
There s no unfinished business on that journey with your father, just with your mother.
5
SPEAKER_01
Correct.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I just wanted to interrogate that.
5
SPEAKER_01
And people know that I m very open about that challenge with my mother and her faith, but also how much I love her.
5
SPEAKER_01
We travel together a lot and I very much post her on the internet and lots of people are like, she s my favorite person.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so I got quite a few people, my friend, Kenny, my mom s best friend, Glenda, saying, you should write a book about your relationship with your mother just because it s interesting.
5
SPEAKER_01
What is that?
5
SPEAKER_01
How can you, especially in a world where families are ripped apart by politics, by religion, they re no longer speaking to each other.
5
SPEAKER_01
The amount of queer people I know who have no relationship with their family is a lot.
5
SPEAKER_02
How about just liberals who don t have relationships?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, liberals, I mean, especially in the last seven years and this moment in time of just intense
5
SPEAKER_01
vitriol towards people you perceive to be other and the fact
6
SPEAKER_00
that we can have such profound otherness and the intensity of that relationship and still have a good time.
6
SPEAKER_00
Let s just look at it.
6
SPEAKER_00
I m not going to tell you what it is.
6
SPEAKER_00
I m just going to show it to you and you can take from it what you will.
6
SPEAKER_00
I can t recommend writing memoirs enough.
6
SPEAKER_00
Maybe you do this by having a podcast, but
6
SPEAKER_00
Creating a narrative story out of your life and figuring out how it fits together in a structure is so profound for healing, because you re no longer just, it s not life happening to you.
6
SPEAKER_00
You are directing your life.
6
SPEAKER_00
You re framing it.
6
SPEAKER_02
And it gives you a sense of control and authorship and ownership and autonomy.
6
SPEAKER_00
Well, there was something I learned when I worked for Invisible Children, and we worked with- You re promoting child soldiers.
6
SPEAKER_00
We were promoting child soldiers.
6
SPEAKER_00
And we worked with escaped child soldiers to help them
6
SPEAKER_00
from the UN did was they would have them reenact their own abduction with the other boys.
6
SPEAKER_01
Very scientific.
6
SPEAKER_00
And at night, really?
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, they do that.
6
SPEAKER_00
to get to the... They recreate their trauma.
6
SPEAKER_00
The anagram?
6
SPEAKER_00
I forget the name of it.
6
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
6
SPEAKER_00
Well, that was a real divergence.
6
SPEAKER_00
He s dropped a bomb into it.
6
SPEAKER_00
I ve always thought there must be something great in Scientology.
6
SPEAKER_01
There s stuff.
6
SPEAKER_00
I don t know anything about it.
6
SPEAKER_00
I only know Leah Remini.
6
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
6
SPEAKER_00
But anyway, they reenact it and the weirdest thing is these boys are cackling, laughing.
6
SPEAKER_00
They were abducted at 11 and then forced out in the yard to shoot their mom.
6
SPEAKER_00
But they reenact their abduction and what these therapists say is that the subconscious fear of chaos, of having no control, is what causes such unlimited PTSD.
6
SPEAKER_00
Instead of you happening to life, life happened to you in a way that ruined it.
6
SPEAKER_00
And so to go back and write over that memory by recreating it,
6
SPEAKER_00
and you just pave another pathway.
6
SPEAKER_00
One of the reasons that people with PTSD have such horrible nightmares, I m quoting this therapist, so I hope I got it right, is one of the reasons we dream is your brain is putting memories into the drawer.
6
SPEAKER_00
So it s like this goes here, this goes here, and it s like filing cabinet things.
6
SPEAKER_00
So one of the reasons PTSD is so nefarious to someone s experience is A, it deprives you of sleep, because when your brain tries to take that memory and put it in a drawer, your body is so afraid of it.
6
SPEAKER_00
that it wakes you up.
6
SPEAKER_00
So you can t sleep.
6
SPEAKER_00
You wake up screaming because your brain s just trying to put it in the drawer and it can t.
6
SPEAKER_00
So these reenactments help your brain have another pathway to get it to the drawer is this idea.
6
SPEAKER_00
It was so amazing to see these
6
SPEAKER_00
therapists do this with these child soldiers.
6
SPEAKER_00
The reason I bring up that analogy is going back and creating a frame and a narrative, things that haven t been seeing it from 30,000 foot view, you get to be the writer of the experience.
6
SPEAKER_00
You re writing the thing that happened to you, which does something.
6
SPEAKER_02
Can I add a layer too?
6
SPEAKER_02
Because I m finding this to be the case when I write about my childhood is
6
SPEAKER_02
You have no choice but to tell the other participant s story.
6
SPEAKER_02
I m ashamed to admit how little energy and time I have put into telling, say, my brother s story until I was forced to do it because it won t work as a story if I don t.
6
SPEAKER_02
And then in writing this stuff about my brother, I m like crying uncontrollably and calling him and telling him he did a good job.
6
SPEAKER_02
It also forced me to do that, which I think is really powerful.
6
SPEAKER_00
That s such a good point because one of the major questions I get when writing memoir is how do I write honestly about family members?
6
SPEAKER_00
They re alive and they will definitely read this if it gets published.
6
SPEAKER_00
How do I tell the truth?
6
SPEAKER_00
You start with the elephant analogy to address this kind of, right?
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I ll give it a second.
6
SPEAKER_00
But everything I
6
SPEAKER_00
I imagine I m telling the story with my mom in the room, but I m telling it completely accurately.
6
SPEAKER_00
To where she can say, I didn t say that, and I have receipts.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
Because what s going to happen is, especially when you write a memoir that s going to be published, the publisher says, you need written permission from this person.
6
SPEAKER_00
There s so many pieces to a book coming out and that tail is so long that if a lawsuit comes down in the 11th wire and ruins your release date, there s an injunction.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s fucked.
6
SPEAKER_00
So they want to avoid that.
6
SPEAKER_00
So anyone you speak of disparagingly, you either have to change the facts so dramatically that they don t recognize it s them or get their written permission.
6
SPEAKER_02
You can t just tell it exactly like it is and change a name or change the relationship?
6
SPEAKER_00
If you re writing about Donald Trump or a public figure, you can.
6
SPEAKER_00
If it s a private figure, the lawyers will be pretty, I mean, if you change their gender and their job and the state they live in and their name, you re probably fine.
6
SPEAKER_00
But if it s your mother and you change your name from Glenda to Brenda, they ll be like, no.
6
SPEAKER_00
So having to do that, and my publisher gave me the best advice.
6
SPEAKER_00
He said, write it as true as you remember it.
6
SPEAKER_00
And then give your mother the manuscript and say, mom, if it s true, I m printing it.
6
SPEAKER_00
But I want you to change anything that I said, you said that s untrue.
6
SPEAKER_00
Go in and redline the whole thing.
6
SPEAKER_00
So it gives her power.
6
SPEAKER_00
And she made some changes.
6
SPEAKER_00
And what s so amazing is she made changes to make it more Christian and more exactly her, which was perfect.
6
SPEAKER_00
And it gave her agency and
6
SPEAKER_00
There s this quote that I read about Jack Kerouac.
6
SPEAKER_00
It was a professor talking about him.
6
SPEAKER_00
And he said, you know, he writes about drug addicts and beatniks and all the things.
6
SPEAKER_00
And he said he never had a mean thing to say about anyone.
6
SPEAKER_00
I love my mother.
6
SPEAKER_00
I have nothing mean to say.
6
SPEAKER_02
Also, it does help.
6
SPEAKER_02
Your mother is an exhibitionist.
6
SPEAKER_02
She did walk across the country.
6
SPEAKER_00
She did write books.
6
SPEAKER_00
She s not a private person.
6
SPEAKER_02
No, she brought you into this game.
6
SPEAKER_00
Well, and that s where I m not prescriptive in this book of like, do this to have your mom love you because
6
SPEAKER_00
I remember one of my gay friends, he was just like, you re so lucky that your mom has redeeming qualities.
6
SPEAKER_00
My mom is funny and loving.
6
SPEAKER_00
She might believe everything different than me, but she will crack the funniest joke you ve ever heard.
6
SPEAKER_00
Or she ll lighten the mood when something becomes too intense.
6
SPEAKER_00
She ll just look at a funny bird and point at it just to like keep it rolling where some people are so intense and righteous and that s their experience.
6
SPEAKER_02
You know, one thing I was thinking when you were laying out some of the differences between you at the beginning of the book, I would say that your relationship with your mom a little bit mirrors mine and my brother s, which is we love each other so much, but we re really politically different.
6
SPEAKER_02
And I ve just learned to just not talk about that.
6
SPEAKER_02
That drives us apart, and there s other things that pull us together.
6
SPEAKER_02
And I m not betraying my side of anything by not having that fight with him.
6
SPEAKER_00
I m not falling short of some ideal I have.
6
SPEAKER_00
In the modern intensity of the discourse, that s what we re told you must do.
6
SPEAKER_00
If someone does not fully align, then you are betraying your convictions and the community of marginalized people that need you to save them at every moment.
6
SPEAKER_01
I m so against it.
6
SPEAKER_00
This is a rough place to live.
6
SPEAKER_00
I think about the word civilization.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s civil, civil society.
6
SPEAKER_00
A civil engagement is just, I m gonna treat you with respect, and we re not gonna agree on everything, but let s be civil about it.
6
SPEAKER_00
No personal insults.
6
SPEAKER_01
I ve been saying this a lot lately, that most people who think like that are not marginalized at all.
6
SPEAKER_01
So they ve never been in the position that you are in, where you have to decide, am I excommunicating my mother, or am I gonna figure out a way to live peacefully with her?
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, can I be this hardcore and have the life I want?
6
SPEAKER_00
Yes, I think the, like, moral purification is so fascinating.
6
SPEAKER_00
And what s so funny is it s so old.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s religion.
6
SPEAKER_00
Evolution takes a long time.
6
SPEAKER_00
We don t change.
6
SPEAKER_00
We just put new clothes on things.
6
SPEAKER_02
Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.
6
SPEAKER_02
It helps to remind myself in these situations that the reason it s so threatening for people you love to have differing beliefs is it is the signal for in-group, out-group.
6
SPEAKER_02
So here s someone I love, but they re in the out-group, my normal out-group, they re now representing somehow.
6
SPEAKER_02
And so what s really on the line isn t what president is gonna be the president, it s that,
6
SPEAKER_02
you re no longer going to be in my in-group and I love you.
6
SPEAKER_02
Or I often think about the stakes between Kristen and her mom s stress over religion when I remind myself
6
SPEAKER_02
Okay, just imagine for a second that you really believe that I m going to heaven.
6
SPEAKER_02
And now let s believe that my two daughters aren t going to join me there.
6
SPEAKER_02
That s a heartbreak I can t even fathom.
6
SPEAKER_02
I have a lot of empathy for that.
6
SPEAKER_02
It doesn t sway me to her point of view, but by God, the notion that I ll be living eternally somewhere and you won t join me, the stakes couldn t be higher.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yes, I m going to continue to argue with you.
6
SPEAKER_00
Everything my mother does that drives me nuts is her loving me in her way.
6
SPEAKER_00
That reality check of stepping into the worldview of someone else, which I understand.
6
SPEAKER_00
You can t do that when you feel under attack.
6
SPEAKER_00
There s a reason why we like freak, because anger pushes you to safety.
6
SPEAKER_00
But once you are at a safe distance, like me moving all the way to California, LOL.
6
SPEAKER_00
And you can look back and see them as a human.
6
SPEAKER_00
You realize what you re doing.
6
SPEAKER_00
And you realize what they re doing.
6
SPEAKER_00
I feel like so many people stay in that fight or flight mode, and they re so triggered, or as my friend Ruthie says, activated.
6
SPEAKER_00
I love that difference.
6
SPEAKER_00
Have you heard that?
6
SPEAKER_00
No, but I like that.
6
SPEAKER_00
Instead of saying triggered, which means something s happening to you.
6
SPEAKER_00
Well, trigger is now a triggering word.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
6
SPEAKER_00
I say aroused.
6
SPEAKER_00
It s exactly that, which is so great.
6
SPEAKER_01
Wait, what s the elephant?
6
SPEAKER_00
I start the book with this parable of the elephant and the blind monks.
6
SPEAKER_00
Have you heard it?
6
SPEAKER_01
Ed Yong also maybe talks about this.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s akin to the marshmallow.
6
SPEAKER_02
It s pretty ubiquitous.
6
SPEAKER_02
I ll let him explain it.
6
SPEAKER_00
The elephant comes to the village.
6
SPEAKER_00
The blind monks have never heard of such a thing.
6
SPEAKER_00
They all go to touch it.
6
SPEAKER_00
They surround it.
6
SPEAKER_00
And their brain is filling in what they think it is.
6
SPEAKER_00
On the way home, they re talking about it.
6
SPEAKER_00
And one of the monks is like, oh, my God, this giant beast made of bone.
6
SPEAKER_00
And the other one who touched the ear is like, what are you talking about?
6
SPEAKER_00
It was like a bat.
6
SPEAKER_00
And the other one s like, it s a furry.
6
SPEAKER_00
And they start arguing.
6
SPEAKER_00
The power of meeting it was so much
7
SPEAKER_00
moving and the grumble of it.
7
SPEAKER_00
They re moved by their experience that was true for them.
7
SPEAKER_00
So now they re offended at the other person for basically calling them a liar.
7
SPEAKER_00
And so they fight.
7
SPEAKER_00
So one of the fun things I did in this book, which I don t ever say, is that the chapter headings, I drew the monsters as the monks see them as the chapter headings.
7
SPEAKER_00
So it s like a bunch of Pokemon monsters, but they re elephant monsters.
7
SPEAKER_02
I loved the drawings and I was wondering if you made them.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I did.
7
SPEAKER_02
Oh, they re great.
7
SPEAKER_02
Let s take one second to go.
7
SPEAKER_02
As smart as you are, as educated as you are, you are also feeling one part of the elephant.
7
SPEAKER_02
That is the most important metaphor.
7
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
7
SPEAKER_00
As an educated, liberal, jurisdoctorate, annoying, whatever I am, it is so hard for me to accept that.
7
SPEAKER_00
I know, because you actually put a lot of effort into seeing the whole elephant in your mind.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yes, but I believe I am not seeing the whole.
7
SPEAKER_00
I bought my mom this like vintage locket with an elephant on it.
7
SPEAKER_00
I got it on Etsy and I put a picture of us in it and I gave it to her and I got one for myself.
7
SPEAKER_00
I actually had a jewelry designer make this.
7
SPEAKER_00
Because I want people to give them to that one family member that comes to mind and put a picture of the two of you in there.
7
SPEAKER_00
Because it s just a reminder to see the whole elephant.
7
SPEAKER_00
And then you might be reminded to think of that in the news, in the whatever it is.
7
SPEAKER_00
You have one perspective that is limited and very limiting.
7
SPEAKER_00
I mean, Sapolsky taught me this.
7
SPEAKER_00
Jonathan Haidt taught me this.
7
SPEAKER_00
Even Carlo Rovelli s book, The Order of Time.
7
SPEAKER_00
Have you read it?
7
SPEAKER_02
No.
7
SPEAKER_00
It is horrific.
7
SPEAKER_00
It is 90 pages.
7
SPEAKER_00
It looks like a bathroom quote book.
7
SPEAKER_00
And it is just him explaining what we currently know about time.
7
SPEAKER_00
He s a like astrophysicist.
7
SPEAKER_00
He s major.
7
SPEAKER_00
And this book is so simple and it s got drawings and he s just explaining what we know.
7
SPEAKER_00
Like the only reason that time exists is the transference of heat.
7
SPEAKER_00
Time is heat going from hotter to colder or colder to hot.
7
SPEAKER_00
But anyway, he s explaining to them and I m feeling my brain come out of my nose and dribble down.
7
SPEAKER_00
And basically the crux of the book is reality is counterintuitive.
7
SPEAKER_00
The way our brains evolved to understand reality is purely based on survival.
7
SPEAKER_00
The fact that we ve gotten this far is very lucky.
7
SPEAKER_00
Our intuitions are not true.
7
SPEAKER_00
And so I remember thinking that as a 12 year old, you know, like when you re a kid and your brain starts to think big thoughts and you re like,
7
SPEAKER_00
Has anyone else thought this ever in history?
7
SPEAKER_00
I was laying in bed thinking about eternity, duh, and space.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I remember imagining hurtling through space.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, there is no way space is infinite.
7
SPEAKER_00
I can t picture infinite.
7
SPEAKER_00
So it must have an end.
7
SPEAKER_00
So I imagine getting to the end of space.
7
SPEAKER_00
and I m floating there, and then I see the wall, and then I think, well, there s gotta be something on the other side of the wall.
7
SPEAKER_00
Of course, of course, yes.
7
SPEAKER_00
So then I remember realizing, oh, the truth must be something unknowable to my mind.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, the capacity.
7
SPEAKER_00
We don t have it.
7
SPEAKER_02
It s like asking a chimpanzee to fly an aircraft.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s not gonna happen.
7
SPEAKER_00
They don t know what you re doing.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yes, I know.
7
SPEAKER_02
Any attempt, I find very unsatisfying.
7
SPEAKER_02
Even the physics attempt.
7
SPEAKER_02
The Big Bang.
7
SPEAKER_02
Okay, but what was before the Big Bang?
7
SPEAKER_02
You know, pure light.
7
SPEAKER_02
From where?
7
SPEAKER_02
And then you go, oh, I see, this is a fool s errand.
7
SPEAKER_02
My little monkey brain s never gonna whip this.
7
SPEAKER_02
I m not gonna waste any more time contemplating it.
7
SPEAKER_02
I ve freed myself from that.
7
SPEAKER_00
The large hydrogen or whatever collider thing.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_00
That thing exists.
7
SPEAKER_00
It has billions of dollars.
7
SPEAKER_00
They built tubes in the Denmark field.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, I don t know what they re doing.
7
SPEAKER_00
I look at it on 60 minutes.
7
SPEAKER_00
I m like, what is this?
7
SPEAKER_00
Right.
7
SPEAKER_00
The super collider.
7
SPEAKER_00
What is that?
7
SPEAKER_00
But I don t even know how a car engine works.
7
SPEAKER_00
You re like way ahead of me.
7
SPEAKER_00
I m like, how did this start?
7
SPEAKER_02
Okay, so what s great about the book, I don t know if explicitly you think this, but what is really beautiful, and it s kind of a call to action, certainly was to me, is if you get really just honest and you take inventory of, okay, how often do I go visit my parents?
7
SPEAKER_02
In your case, it s like twice a year.
7
SPEAKER_02
How old s my mom?
7
SPEAKER_02
She s 70.
7
SPEAKER_02
What s the average age of a woman in America?
7
76.
7
SPEAKER_02
So, wow, 12 more times, that s when I m gonna see this person who raised me?
7
SPEAKER_02
That seems a little light.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
7
SPEAKER_02
And then you find this great hack, which again, you re not giving advice, but just by living your life the way you are, it s such great advice, which is you found out years ago that if you hang with your mom and there s a buffer, it works beautifully.
7
SPEAKER_00
A diffuser.
7
SPEAKER_00
This happened by accident where my mom was coming to visit me and she brought her friend, Pam.
7
SPEAKER_00
Pam is a boomer delight.
7
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
7
SPEAKER_00
She s like so fun.
7
SPEAKER_00
She was on the dating apps.
7
SPEAKER_00
She was thriving.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I only go home to see my mom for holidays with the family.
7
SPEAKER_00
So I m with her and it s so intense.
7
SPEAKER_00
She wants to cook me every meal.
7
SPEAKER_00
She wants to do my laundry.
7
SPEAKER_00
She s like watching me.
7
SPEAKER_00
I m like on my phone and she s asking me a million questions.
7
SPEAKER_00
And she s like, you really love your phone.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I m just like, I know all she wants to do is love me.
7
SPEAKER_00
But even just that interaction is making my skin crawl.
7
SPEAKER_00
So then she comes to visit and she brings her friend and I ve never seen her be a friend where they are ripping on each other.
7
SPEAKER_00
cackling, laughing, having the time of their lives.
7
SPEAKER_00
She s a human all of a sudden.
7
SPEAKER_00
She s a human.
7
SPEAKER_00
And then Pam would ask me the exact same question my mom might ask, but for some reason, I want to answer Pam s question.
7
SPEAKER_00
Right, it didn t hit any buttons.
7
SPEAKER_01
Of course, yeah.
7
SPEAKER_00
I ll tell her everything.
7
SPEAKER_00
And then my mom is sitting there listening.
7
SPEAKER_00
And then she ll be like, wow, he s never told me that or whatever.
7
SPEAKER_00
And it s just this amazing thing.
7
SPEAKER_00
And we had the best hangs, the best experiences.
7
SPEAKER_00
And we had so much fun.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I got this memory with my mom and I got to see her in this way, being funny and sweet and the butt of a joke and the jokester.
7
SPEAKER_01
Well, you got to see her at the center of her life.
7
SPEAKER_01
She s not ever at the center of her life in your story.
7
SPEAKER_01
She s your mom.
7
SPEAKER_01
She s a piece of your life.
7
SPEAKER_00
Satellite staring at you.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s a way to see her as she s the center.
7
SPEAKER_01
You re her son.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s so sweet because I think most people don t really experience that.
7
SPEAKER_00
My whole childhood, it wasn t like they were cackling in the den having wine.
7
SPEAKER_00
My mom was just my mom running around taking kids to school.
7
SPEAKER_00
It didn t cross my mind that she was a 20-year-old girl who got older.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, exactly.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yes, yes.
7
SPEAKER_02
And so you turn this realization into a trip to the Alps, which is hysterical.
7
SPEAKER_02
What s the woman?
7
SPEAKER_02
I wrote it down.
7
SPEAKER_00
Glenda.
7
SPEAKER_02
Glenda.
7
SPEAKER_02
So you, Glenda, and your mom, you go all over the Alps, you drive around.
7
SPEAKER_02
It s a huge success.
7
SPEAKER_02
This interview is going to be seven hours long, but one part that really struck me that I liked about it was you talking about stealing a moment for yourself and going out of the Mediterranean and walking on some pebbles and having the moment.
7
SPEAKER_02
where you think this is for something.
7
SPEAKER_02
Why does everything have to be for something?
7
SPEAKER_02
And I was just thinking that we have really great framing for that mental debate.
7
SPEAKER_02
And I think it s Kahneman, which is you have two selves.
7
SPEAKER_02
So is that trip your experiential self s favorite thing?
7
SPEAKER_02
No, but you re also servicing your narrative self.
7
SPEAKER_02
It s just as important to you.
7
SPEAKER_02
So are you the type of son who takes his mom and her girlfriend out?
7
SPEAKER_02
I think it s easy.
7
SPEAKER_02
in those moments to compare it to your experiential self and go this isn t really that fun for me or it s not what I might want to do but I have to do it as opposed to just going like no now I m in narrative mode and this is very fulfilling and the objective is exactly what s happening.
7
SPEAKER_00
Well, and double helixing your life with those two modes is so important.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
7
SPEAKER_00
Checking in on both of them.
7
SPEAKER_00
Are you pure narrative?
7
SPEAKER_00
Because you ve met people who become doctors and lawyers.
7
SPEAKER_00
And they re miserable.
7
SPEAKER_00
And it s pure narrative.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
7
SPEAKER_00
Pure experience.
7
SPEAKER_00
And then they re in their mid-fifties.
7
SPEAKER_00
They re dead at 27.
7
SPEAKER_00
Or they re dead at 27.
7
SPEAKER_00
And they re like, whoops.
7
SPEAKER_02
I think the growth for both of us would be when you re in those zones, shut off the fucking hater and just be in the zone and go, no, no, I fluctuate between these two zones.
7
SPEAKER_02
I don t need to contrast them with each other all the time.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s funny.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I don t know if you ve
7
SPEAKER_00
felt this in your writing.
7
SPEAKER_00
Part of the narrative self for me is also I am a memoirist, and so I can t get too enlightened.
7
SPEAKER_00
Right, right, right.
7
SPEAKER_00
I need to still hate myself and feel shitty.
7
SPEAKER_00
I need to stay messy.
7
SPEAKER_00
That sounds like I could actually be too enlightened.
7
SPEAKER_00
I don t think I can.
7
SPEAKER_00
I am also like an Enneagram 7 visceral Sagittarius, Topanga Canyon.
7
SPEAKER_02
Let s say it this way, I think the arc of self-actualization versus the arc of drama are going in opposite directions.
7
SPEAKER_02
My best state when I m working a program perfectly and someone irritates me and I get a resentment and I do my inventory and I realize it s about this fear from a long time ago and we don t need to have that resentment.
7
SPEAKER_02
Well, what I ve really done, the goal of all this would be really to have to reduce this terrible friction I have with other people.
7
SPEAKER_02
and what is story other than friction and drama?
7
SPEAKER_02
So I relate to that a lot.
7
SPEAKER_02
I think like if I wait too long to write anything, you gotta be a little resentful of people to write about.
7
SPEAKER_02
You gotta have these things.
7
SPEAKER_00
There s gotta be a reason to read it other than just in Oprah s grove.
7
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, like all these things happened to me and I was never affected by them because I m so self-actualized.
7
SPEAKER_02
Great.
7
SPEAKER_02
Why did I read this?
7
SPEAKER_00
I guess people want to get there, but.
7
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_02
But there s a punchline to this.
7
SPEAKER_02
So you have great success with that trip to the Alps.
7
SPEAKER_02
And then your mother suggests for the next trip that you guys take a cruise.
7
SPEAKER_02
Will you explain to Monica the cruise?
7
SPEAKER_02
Because I think this is incredible.
7
SPEAKER_00
The cruise is the dream deferred.
7
SPEAKER_00
So my mom and I have wanted to go on a cruise together for years.
7
SPEAKER_00
We love cruises.
7
SPEAKER_00
This is a question I would like to ask the audience.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_00
Which is what is something panned by your community that you love?
7
SPEAKER_00
Malls.
7
SPEAKER_00
Great.
7
SPEAKER_00
Mine is cruises.
7
SPEAKER_00
Like I am a nature person.
7
SPEAKER_00
Picture me.
7
SPEAKER_00
I m camping.
7
SPEAKER_00
I m in the dirt and I want to go on a cruise.
7
SPEAKER_00
So that was a dream of ours for a long time.
7
SPEAKER_00
So then COVID hits.
7
SPEAKER_00
A lot of people did this inventory of bucket lists of their life.
7
SPEAKER_00
Like, Oh, well, what am I going to do now?
7
SPEAKER_00
And she wants to do a cruise.
7
SPEAKER_00
So she goes, Jed, I get this email.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s like May, 2020.
7
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
7
SPEAKER_00
LA is in hazmat suits.
7
SPEAKER_00
In Tennessee, they re like licking each other.
7
SPEAKER_00
She s
8
SPEAKER_00
like, there s a cruise, starts in Venice, goes to Israel.
8
SPEAKER_00
It goes all around Greece and Crete and whatever.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, this sounds great.
8
SPEAKER_00
I ve never been to these places.
8
SPEAKER_00
And she s like, I ll book the tickets now and I ll pay for yours.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, wow, that s so nice.
8
SPEAKER_00
And then she goes, one catch, don t be mad.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, okay.
8
SPEAKER_00
She goes, it s a Glenn Beck cruise.
8
SPEAKER_02
No.
8
SPEAKER_01
Are you serious?
8
SPEAKER_01
Now is it a Glenn Beck cruise?
8
SPEAKER_01
It s a Glenn Beck cruise to discover the foundational elements of faith and democracy.
8
SPEAKER_01
Hello.
8
SPEAKER_01
So you re going to get, it s going to be one long lecture.
8
SPEAKER_00
It s going to be one long lecture.
8
SPEAKER_00
He speaks every day and then it ends in Israel where he s interviewed by Bill O Reilly.
8
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
8
SPEAKER_01
The grand finale.
8
SPEAKER_01
Is Bill O Reilly and Glenn Beck chatting in Israel?
8
SPEAKER_00
You know, my immediate arousal activation is I would rather die.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
My second is all of these old people are going to get COVID, which may be good for evolution.
8
SPEAKER_00
My third thought is this would be the best
8
SPEAKER_00
thing to write about in history.
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh my God.
8
SPEAKER_00
So now I ve clicked over to narrative self.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yes, mother.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
8
SPEAKER_00
I love this about you.
8
SPEAKER_00
But what s so funny is that this is a boat, a huge boat full of certainly non-vaxxed humans.
8
SPEAKER_00
Italy is you can t come here without a vax.
8
SPEAKER_02
Right.
8
SPEAKER_00
And Israel.
8
SPEAKER_00
And Israel.
8
SPEAKER_00
And they re trying to do this in November of 2020.
8
SPEAKER_00
No, no, no, I m sorry.
8
SPEAKER_00
November of 2021.
8
SPEAKER_00
Cause that s when the Vax existed.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, mom, this is not going to happen.
8
SPEAKER_00
And she s like, well, I m praying.
8
SPEAKER_00
So anyway, she starts to email to be like, Hey, is there an update?
8
SPEAKER_00
It s now August.
8
SPEAKER_00
I have not heard from the cruise company.
8
SPEAKER_00
Not one word.
8
SPEAKER_00
Europe is locking down Omicron.
8
SPEAKER_00
So then my mom starts hail Mary in the emails.
8
SPEAKER_00
She s like, I am a woman in her seventies.
8
SPEAKER_00
I spent all my savings on this.
8
SPEAKER_00
I m gonna go destitute. 
8
SPEAKER_00
She sends them, like, 20 emails.
8
SPEAKER_00
She s got a paper trail.
8
SPEAKER_00
There s not a word.
8
SPEAKER_00
She s given them, like, 10 grand.
8
SPEAKER_02
Oh, my God.
8
SPEAKER_00
And then, a month before the cruise was supposed to leave, still no word.
8
SPEAKER_00
She sends a final thing, like, I m gonna have to find a lawyer.
8
SPEAKER_00
And she just gets her credit card refunded.
8
SPEAKER_00
No!
8
SPEAKER_00
And they never said a word again.
8
SPEAKER_00
And then I say, mom, I m going to write about this in the book.
8
SPEAKER_00
And she goes, I wish you wouldn t.
8
SPEAKER_00
I don t want to bad mouth Glenn Beck.
8
SPEAKER_01
Well, Barb, I can t imagine he was overseeing the email communication.
8
SPEAKER_01
That s true.
8
SPEAKER_01
He was probably cut him that alone.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
He probably wasn t involved at all.
8
SPEAKER_01
I think I m really fair to Republicans and conservatives, and I have lots of Republican conservative friends I really, really love.
8
SPEAKER_01
But I will say Glenn Beck is out of that circle for me and is Bill O Reilly.
8
SPEAKER_01
Those two are kind of out of that circle.
8
SPEAKER_01
So that to me would be a very rough cruise.
8
SPEAKER_01
I love that you were going to go on it.
8
SPEAKER_01
It sounds like a vice column.
8
SPEAKER_00
No, yeah, the moment that this cruise comes back on, I hope that they let me.
8
SPEAKER_02
You have to.
8
SPEAKER_00
Because I ve been public about it.
8
SPEAKER_00
But I m ready because A, the staff, I can t wait to smoke cigarettes with them secretly and talk about everything.
8
SPEAKER_00
Also, I want my mom to find a husband.
8
SPEAKER_00
What a dream.
8
SPEAKER_00
She s like on a love affair, love boat.
8
SPEAKER_00
Hello.
8
SPEAKER_00
I m just picturing there s so many things that could happen.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
Opportunity abounds.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I love a boomer conversation.
8
SPEAKER_00
I love it.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
OK, so in place of that.
8
SPEAKER_00
So then that is finally canceled.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I m like, well, I ve got this time that I want to spend with my mom.
8
SPEAKER_00
I m excited to make this memory with her.
8
SPEAKER_00
Also, COVID is killing older people.
8
SPEAKER_00
So now I m extra
8
SPEAKER_00
desirous of spending time with my parents.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I ve gone on adventures like this with my dad.
8
SPEAKER_00
I was raised, like when I graduated college, we did a motorcycle trip across America.
8
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
8
SPEAKER_00
We ve done these things, but not with my mom.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I m thinking, well, I ve always heard my dad s perspective of the walk.
8
SPEAKER_00
It s so famous, but what s my mom s?
8
SPEAKER_00
I pitch this, I m like, mom, we re not doing the cruise.
8
SPEAKER_00
What if we retrace your walk across America on a mother-son road trip?
8
SPEAKER_00
She goes, oh, I would love that.
8
SPEAKER_00
Let me fish out my journals.
8
SPEAKER_00
I had never known she had a journal of every day for three years from age 29 to 32.
8
SPEAKER_00
every day of her first three years of marriage and love with my dad.
8
SPEAKER_00
Having been swept off her feet in New Orleans.
8
SPEAKER_00
Swept off her feet on this great adventure, interviewed by magazines, followed by National Geographic.
8
SPEAKER_00
It s in her own words at the time, like your journal from 9-11.
8
SPEAKER_00
Like she could have never remembered it the way she said it.
8
SPEAKER_00
And then we re going to these places, which she hasn t been back to for 40 years, because it s so activating for her.
8
SPEAKER_00
And we re going to these towns and she s seeing them and reading from her journal.
8
SPEAKER_00
And it was very profound.
8
SPEAKER_00
And seeing her as a 30-year-old.
8
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
8
SPEAKER_00
In her own words.
8
SPEAKER_02
How special.
8
SPEAKER_00
I really am curious for your daughters in the modern world now for Gen Alpha and below, there s so much footage.
8
SPEAKER_00
Hopefully it doesn t just disappear in the cloud.
8
SPEAKER_00
You could really see your parents and hear your parents talk in every stage of their life millions of times, which is very cool.
8
SPEAKER_01
I will say those videos are even so powerful for me.
8
SPEAKER_01
It doesn t happen often, but twice a year we re in bed and we go down a little rabbit hole of watching videos from when they re little.
8
SPEAKER_01
I kind of have the opposite problem, which is I have so much self-negative talk and so much disappointment myself and never hitting my goals.
8
SPEAKER_01
But I see those videos and I was like, I m holding that baby.
8
SPEAKER_01
Half the videos are me dancing with Lincoln as a baby.
8
SPEAKER_01
I m so glad that exists because I ve already backfilled that I could have done better and I should have been better.
8
SPEAKER_01
So in that way, it s helpful to my own narrative.
8
SPEAKER_00
It s so hard to stay on topic, but I m so happy that
8
SPEAKER_00
We re living in this moment and I m thinking 10 years out.
8
SPEAKER_00
One of the things I miss the most is my grandmother s voice.
8
SPEAKER_00
She was so fucking funny and so cool.
8
SPEAKER_00
And she died in 2010.
8
SPEAKER_00
There s very few clips and I don t remember it sometimes.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I m thinking, my parents are writers and there s a lot of footage
8
SPEAKER_00
of them speaking and audiobooks.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I can feed that into AI.
8
SPEAKER_00
And it s also their words.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I can, like, when I m 80, ask my mom a question.
8
SPEAKER_00
What would you do, mom?
8
SPEAKER_00
And my mom s voice will come out and be like, hey, honey.
8
SPEAKER_01
First step, have some colloidoids over.
8
SPEAKER_00
I want to also feed it all of her voicemails because that will be so nostalgic to me.
8
SPEAKER_00
So we go on this road trip and it s retracing her steps.
8
SPEAKER_00
And it s so profound to see her eyes and look
8
SPEAKER_00
as a 30-year-old, like a twinkle, which if your parents walked across America, take them on this road trip.
8
SPEAKER_00
Couldn t recommend it enough.
8
SPEAKER_00
10 out of 10.
8
SPEAKER_00
And it s so honoring to a parent.
8
SPEAKER_00
Certainly most kids don t ever actually look back and be like, wow, look what you did.
8
SPEAKER_00
And especially if it s complicated and they have a lot of reasons to be hurt by it.
8
SPEAKER_00
I think about the narrative self of, I want to be proud of the son that I was.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
8
SPEAKER_00
And the person that I am in general.
8
SPEAKER_00
I just want to be proud.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I am.
8
SPEAKER_00
You should be.
8
SPEAKER_00
It feels good.
8
SPEAKER_01
I asked you if you would read a little bit of the book to us because we had Sedaris do it and it was so fun and you re so charismatic and I would like to hear a little bit.
8
SPEAKER_00
Based on the vibe I need to figure out what is the right zing.
8
SPEAKER_01
You know at certain times during this you don t not look like David Beckham.
8
SPEAKER_01
Are you picking any of that up, Monica?
8
SPEAKER_02
It s hard because we just saw Jim Rash in a thing.
8
SPEAKER_02
Do you know Jim Rash?
8
SPEAKER_02
He s a comedian.
8
SPEAKER_02
He s so funny.
8
SPEAKER_01
He also wrote Sideway.
8
SPEAKER_01
Oh, The Descendants.
8
SPEAKER_01
Oh my God.
8
SPEAKER_01
Love.
8
SPEAKER_02
He s incredible.
8
SPEAKER_01
He was also the principal on Community.
8
SPEAKER_01
Oh, I know who that is.
8
SPEAKER_02
You guys have the exact same voice and you don t look dissimilar either.
8
SPEAKER_02
And it throws me.
8
SPEAKER_00
The pace of the way that I speak, you know how sometimes you don t even say anything funny, but just the way you re talking, someone says, oh my God, you re so hilarious.
8
SPEAKER_00
You just said like, pass the olive oil.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
But it s the cadence.
8
SPEAKER_00
A woman at the airport yesterday, I was just describing a restaurant in Echo Park and she was like, are you a comedian?
8
SPEAKER_00
I m like, no.
8
SPEAKER_00
No, you have a very sing-songy delivery of all thoughts.
8
SPEAKER_00
Which is my mom and my dad.
8
SPEAKER_00
Okay, this just is kind of a summary of our conversation.
8
SPEAKER_00
We ve been on this road trip for four days now, seeing only each other, talking only to each other.
8
SPEAKER_00
Normally, spending too much unbroken time with my mother activates my flight response.
8
SPEAKER_00
But now we re ending day four and I m enjoying myself.
8
SPEAKER_00
I like talking to her.
8
SPEAKER_00
I like hearing her stories.
8
SPEAKER_00
Even when she reads to me from her book or her notes, I gobble it up.
8
SPEAKER_00
Maybe it s because I know I m going to write about it.
8
SPEAKER_00
The curiosity of the journalist diffuses the nature of the sun.
8
SPEAKER_00
Mom is looking for our hotel reservation in her emails.
8
SPEAKER_00
It s not coming up.
8
SPEAKER_00
I glance over to her phone.
8
SPEAKER_00
The font is huge, thanks to her aging eyes.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I see her inbox.
8
SPEAKER_00
I just see the subject line.
8
SPEAKER_00
China invasion imminent, how to prepare.
8
SPEAKER_00
Voter fraud proven.
8
SPEAKER_00
Real Republican daily.
8
SPEAKER_00
And daily prayer for patriots.
8
SPEAKER_00
My mom is a conservative, but also an individual.
8
SPEAKER_00
If the government says something, she wants to believe something else.
8
SPEAKER_00
If a pastor says something she doesn t like, she ll read the Bible herself and articulate her challenge.
8
SPEAKER_00
She is the queen of doing her own research.
8
SPEAKER_00
This usually comes in the forms of health remedies, colloidal silver, chemicals in our foods, diatomaceous earth, 5G radiation.
8
SPEAKER_00
She seems like she would be a prime candidate for QAnon.
8
SPEAKER_00
but I ve made phishing statements around her and she has scoffed at the absurdity of it.
8
SPEAKER_00
Thank God.
8
SPEAKER_00
What is the tipping point where a conservative becomes alt-right?
8
SPEAKER_00
Why does someone listen to Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity, but not Infowars?
8
SPEAKER_00
And what could be said of me?
8
SPEAKER_00
Why do I love Michael Barbaro, but don t watch Rachel Maddow?
8
SPEAKER_02
Hmm.
8
SPEAKER_02
Great.
8
SPEAKER_00
That s the perspective taking being like, well, what about me?
8
SPEAKER_02
Exactly.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
Because I listened to my mom listening to all
9
SPEAKER_00
these radio shows, well, that was a really interesting thing being on the road trip, is when you re driving, you know, I drive around LA alone all the time, I listen to whatever I want.
9
SPEAKER_00
The experience of listening to something with someone who is not exactly ideologically the same as you in the car, all of a sudden, your brain hears everything new.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yes, you get very self-conscious.
9
SPEAKER_00
You re like, oh my God, they just said this or whatever.
9
SPEAKER_00
And you hear it and you would never even think about it.
9
SPEAKER_00
So trying to find something that we can both listen to is not easy, even in PR.
9
SPEAKER_00
We did a live show with Dan Savage in Seattle.
9
SPEAKER_01
It would never cross my mind how he s talking one iota, but I invited basically my old mother-in-law and father-in-law.
9
SPEAKER_01
We weren t married, but we were together for nine years and I fucking loved them so much.
9
SPEAKER_01
And they came to the show.
9
SPEAKER_01
And as he was talking about the Santorum, a noun he invented about the cum and something else that comes out of an ass, he s letting it rip about the Santorum.
9
SPEAKER_01
And all of a sudden I just go, oh, Greg s here.
9
SPEAKER_01
Greg goes to church every Sunday.
9
SPEAKER_01
He s a vet, a firefighter.
9
SPEAKER_01
You re right.
9
SPEAKER_01
Like, I m not against what he was saying.
9
SPEAKER_01
It s just all of a sudden I go like, oh yeah, we go for it.
9
SPEAKER_01
I don t even generally notice we go for it.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that is so true.
9
SPEAKER_00
And you probably have this forced upon you by being in the public eye and having everything you say recorded as you listen with a doublespeak of all.
9
SPEAKER_00
So I was like, what the hell is the Internet going to say now?
9
SPEAKER_00
If we were just talking without microphones, there would be a different freedom.
9
SPEAKER_00
But now you re hearing the world hear it, which is such a double entendre.
9
SPEAKER_00
I mean, and that s the experience of writing a book too.
9
SPEAKER_01
We do say stuff on here that if I were to say on the Today Show would be a headline.
9
SPEAKER_01
But you also have to remember the only people that are listening to this show are in somewhat concert with how we think.
9
SPEAKER_01
You don t stumble upon it.
9
SPEAKER_01
It s not in a taxi cab plane when you get in.
9
SPEAKER_01
You can t really trip over this show.
9
SPEAKER_01
So in that you get a little bit of confidence
9
SPEAKER_01
that is probably naive, and occasionally it does seep out into all the regular media channels, and that s when we hear crazy stuff, and then I m reminded of that, and then I m disheartened by it, and all these things.
9
SPEAKER_01
It s just when it permeates the bubble that we ve created, and it is a Today Show story, and then you get the full brunt.
9
SPEAKER_00
Right, you re both so vulnerable and raw on these shows.
9
SPEAKER_00
So if people are diehard fans, you feel seen, and you feel, I would assume, that s how I feel as a memoirist, in order to like
9
SPEAKER_00
my work, you have to, like, sit for 12-plus hours and feel something.
9
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, you like us, probably, if you re listening to all of our stuff.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s different than being an underwear model or something where they re dying for you and they don t know anything about you.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
Which you ve probably experienced both sides.
9
SPEAKER_01
Well, I have.
9
SPEAKER_01
One came with no self-esteem and one does, which feels wonderful.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s very rare.
9
SPEAKER_00
Everybody wants that, to some degree, and that s what you should get from your community.
9
SPEAKER_00
And that s, I think, one of the most insidious thefts of fame, especially young fame.
9
SPEAKER_00
is if you were famous before you were old enough to know that people like you for you, that they just like your vibe.
9
SPEAKER_00
They like the way you talk.
9
SPEAKER_00
You re funny.
9
SPEAKER_00
They just want to know you because of whatever that mystery essence is.
9
SPEAKER_00
They want to be around you and fame robs you of that.
9
SPEAKER_00
And you don t know why they re talking to you.
9
SPEAKER_00
And once in a while, it s confirmed that there is a reason and it s because they want to take a photo or whatever.
9
SPEAKER_01
They want their own status.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s so destructive.
9
SPEAKER_00
getting into showbiz?
9
SPEAKER_01
I mean, I don t want them to be child actors because I want them to have a real childhood and then draw on that.
9
SPEAKER_00
That s what I mean.
9
SPEAKER_01
Mind you, I know a lot of child actors that have grown incredibly wonderful and I admire them.
9
SPEAKER_01
Me too, actually.
9
SPEAKER_01
You know a couple of the ones that I know.
9
SPEAKER_01
And then I ve seen ones that are ruined by it.
9
SPEAKER_01
I don t fucking know.
9
SPEAKER_01
I would just prefer that they have a real life to draw on before their life is largely artificial.
9
SPEAKER_01
If they were going to be writers, I would also want that for them as writers.
9
SPEAKER_00
I know, I have one of the rare jobs where it s not cooler to be young.
9
SPEAKER_00
Like, if I hear their debut novel they wrote when they were 21, I m like, ew.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s like, what could that possibly be about?
9
SPEAKER_00
What could that be about?
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s really true.
9
SPEAKER_01
I mean, and there are some genius.
9
SPEAKER_01
Of course.
9
SPEAKER_01
Spielberg somehow directed Jaws at 23.
9
SPEAKER_01
I don t know how.
9
SPEAKER_01
He did?
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, we were just there and we were looking at all these sites and someone pointed out, we d have to fact check it, but I think that s right.
9
SPEAKER_01
I think he directed fucking Jaws at 23.
9
SPEAKER_01
So yeah, there s people, but I m not one of them.
9
SPEAKER_01
No.
9
SPEAKER_01
I want to hear one more passage and then I ve earmarked one
9
SPEAKER_00
Fun dance for us potentially What s the longest interview you ve ever given where I mean you knew you were gonna edit it But like you just were talking forever.
9
SPEAKER_01
We ve bumped up against four hours.
9
SPEAKER_01
I think
9
SPEAKER_00
With who?
9
SPEAKER_00
I m obsessed.
9
SPEAKER_02
Three hours for Justin Long, I remember.
9
SPEAKER_00
Hundreds of episodes.
9
SPEAKER_00
Are you at 1,000 yet?
9
SPEAKER_00
No.
9
SPEAKER_00
No, we keep pretending we are.
9
SPEAKER_00
Not 1,000.
9
SPEAKER_00
We re like 700.
9
SPEAKER_00
But your brain must like naturally feel the shape of the episode as it s going.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yes or no?
9
SPEAKER_01
It s heavier on Monica s shoulders than mine.
9
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, I do.
9
SPEAKER_01
You feel it.
9
SPEAKER_03
I do know.
9
SPEAKER_03
And I m like, I ll stop it.
9
SPEAKER_03
I know I m stopping it here.
9
SPEAKER_01
Well, also, she ll get a... You should do like a... Her energy will change occasionally.
9
SPEAKER_01
And I ll look over at her and she s fully now in editing mode and she s like, we re fucked.
9
SPEAKER_01
And I can feel it.
9
SPEAKER_01
And I m like, okay, I can feel I m making a mess for her.
9
SPEAKER_01
That s amazing.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I try not to make a mess for her, but I feel it.
9
SPEAKER_00
So this is a scene where I ve gone to the restroom while we re checking in a hotel and I come back to her berating, talking to the poor Indian man who works at the front.
9
SPEAKER_00
Oh, this is going to be very activating for you, Monica.
9
SPEAKER_00
Speaking of activating.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s very sweet.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s become a beautiful restaurant.
9
SPEAKER_00
The post and beam ceiling is gorgeous.
9
SPEAKER_00
A huge stained glass wall that I had commissioned is in a big dining room that was in the kitchen.
9
SPEAKER_00
Get your phone out and I ll put you in.
9
SPEAKER_00
You have Instagram?
9
SPEAKER_00
She says.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yes, ma am, I do, he says.
9
SPEAKER_00
She takes his phone, slides her reading glasses onto her nose, holds the phone at just that mom distance, and begins typing with one finger.
9
SPEAKER_00
Here it is, she says, handing it back.
9
SPEAKER_00
Oh, it looks beautiful.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yes, you have to take your brother there.
9
SPEAKER_00
The food is delicious.
9
SPEAKER_00
They have a world-class chef.
9
SPEAKER_00
Reba McEntire eats there.
9
SPEAKER_00
Which she did once, maybe.
9
SPEAKER_00
He is smiling.
9
SPEAKER_00
Is he enjoying this rapport or waiting for it to be over?
9
SPEAKER_00
I can t tell.
9
SPEAKER_00
He hands us the keys to our room.
9
SPEAKER_00
I put you in our biggest room, he says.
9
SPEAKER_00
We go up the elevators and the room is gigantic.
9
SPEAKER_00
Not in a luxurious way, in a converted conference room way.
9
SPEAKER_00
The beds are a mile apart.
9
SPEAKER_00
The TV is two miles across the room.
9
SPEAKER_00
The first half of the floor is tile, the second carpet.
9
SPEAKER_00
What kind of room is this?
9
SPEAKER_00
Ma shrieks.
9
SPEAKER_00
The bathroom door doesn t exactly close because it is a barn door on tracks that just slides over the doorway.
9
SPEAKER_00
He gave us the biggest room.
9
SPEAKER_00
It isn t exactly fancy, but I m grateful.
9
SPEAKER_00
This is nice, she says, unpacking her toiletries and nightgown.
9
SPEAKER_00
Mind if I take up the bathroom for a minute, she asks.
9
SPEAKER_00
Not at all, I say.
9
SPEAKER_00
And she shuffles in there with her bag of things.
9
SPEAKER_00
The sliding barn door doesn t close properly and leaves a couple inches visible.
9
SPEAKER_00
I watch her fight the door.
9
SPEAKER_00
I can feel the strangeness.
9
SPEAKER_00
I should not have a millimeter of visibility into the bathroom.
9
SPEAKER_00
What if she wants to use the toilet?
9
SPEAKER_00
TV loud so she can assume I m distracted.
9
SPEAKER_00
I choose to be distracted.
9
SPEAKER_00
There is weirdness in the air.
9
SPEAKER_00
I never heard the toilet flush.
9
SPEAKER_00
She slides the barn door open and her face is glistening with oil.
9
SPEAKER_00
She sits in bed, kicks up her feet, puts on her reading glasses, and takes her phone into both hands.
9
SPEAKER_00
My feet stink, she says.
9
SPEAKER_00
They don t tell you that when you get old, your feet stink.
9
SPEAKER_01
This is her move, she complimented the man about his thick, luxurious hair at the rental desk in the Alps when you guys got a BMW upgrade.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I m so embarrassed by the way she s communicating with these people because it feels offensive or it feels like whatever, but her jovial love, we always get free stuff.
9
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, they aren t feeling the thing you re afraid they re feeling.
9
SPEAKER_01
Exactly.
9
SPEAKER_01
Okay, I guess I ll start with a primer question.
9
SPEAKER_01
This is the dangerous dance I want to have.
9
SPEAKER_01
Okay, great.
9
SPEAKER_01
But I think it could be equally exposing for both of us.
9
SPEAKER_01
I m excited.
9
SPEAKER_01
In maybe a productive way.
9
SPEAKER_01
Wait, what if I have to pee?
9
SPEAKER_01
Go pee.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
9
SPEAKER_02
I ll step out.
9
SPEAKER_02
No, you don t have to.
9
SPEAKER_02
Are you good?
9
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
9
SPEAKER_01
Shall I step in?
9
SPEAKER_00
Unwrap it.
9
SPEAKER_00
I remember I accidentally used a women s bathroom once and I heard a woman pee for the first time.
9
SPEAKER_00
It was so much louder.
9
SPEAKER_00
It was like a thumb on a hose.
9
SPEAKER_00
I was shocked.
9
SPEAKER_03
You think it s louder than men s?
9
SPEAKER_00
Well, I could hear the width of the spray.
9
SPEAKER_00
It was so loud.
9
SPEAKER_00
Oh, girthy.
9
SPEAKER_01
More forceful.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
9
SPEAKER_00
Squeezed.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_02
Well, that s because it was probably hitting the toilet as opposed to the water, maybe.
9
SPEAKER_02
Like the way it hit.
9
SPEAKER_01
Hard to know with the way you guys use those birds of yours.
9
SPEAKER_01
We hit differently.
9
SPEAKER_01
Our pee hits differently.
9
SPEAKER_02
It does.
9
SPEAKER_01
Was that hand wash performative?
9
SPEAKER_01
Would you have done that if we weren t here?
9
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
9
SPEAKER_01
You would have.
9
SPEAKER_02
Good, I liked it.
9
SPEAKER_00
He s a good boy.
9
SPEAKER_00
It s forced upon me because I don t really care.
9
SPEAKER_01
Right.
9
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
My thing is my dick isn t dirty and I didn t put my hands in my urine.
9
SPEAKER_00
My hands are dirty.
9
SPEAKER_01
Right, I wash my hands occasionally before I pee, but then I don t after.
9
SPEAKER_01
I want to keep my dick clean.
9
SPEAKER_03
But not everyone wants to touch your dick skin.
9
SPEAKER_01
My dick is very clean.
9
SPEAKER_00
It never goes outside.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it doesn t touch anything.
9
SPEAKER_00
Other than, but I guess there s some urine from a dribble that s on the inside.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I don t know.
9
SPEAKER_03
Okay, dance time.
9
SPEAKER_01
I can t wait.
9
SPEAKER_00
Let me start with a question.
9
SPEAKER_01
Have you seen a pattern in your own life where you are judgmental or annoyed at people that
10
SPEAKER_02
that are exhibiting a character defect you also have.
10
SPEAKER_02
Yes, I will never forget and I won t say the name, but my friend when I was down at Invisible Children was like, there is this guy coming in town that is you.
10
SPEAKER_02
You are twins, you are soulmates.
10
SPEAKER_02
This person is you.
10
SPEAKER_02
When I met him at this party,
10
SPEAKER_02
The self, like, is this how I come across was so devastating, but that s great.
10
SPEAKER_02
I mean, I love it.
10
SPEAKER_02
You know, like that s just what life is.
10
SPEAKER_00
I ve had a few of them that really punched me in the nose.
10
SPEAKER_00
And in fact, Bradley Cooper was one to point one out after I relapse.
10
SPEAKER_00
I won t say the name either, but he s like kind of brings into perspective all your resentments against so-and-so for being full of shit.
10
SPEAKER_00
Or lying.
10
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, oh, that s exactly what was going on.
10
SPEAKER_00
I see another liar.
10
SPEAKER_02
Do you think that that experience is the fact that, sorry, that I just love this phrase that you ve given me today.
10
SPEAKER_02
Our narrative self is actually not real or what we imagine ourself to be is this image that we think we are.
10
SPEAKER_02
And then when you find out the way people see you is divergent from that image, that it sucks.
10
SPEAKER_02
Why do we find that so activating?
10
SPEAKER_02
That I m a hypocrite?
10
SPEAKER_02
That we are triggered by somebody who exhibits a thing we fear.
10
SPEAKER_02
That we hate things that we fear we are.
10
SPEAKER_02
Right.
10
SPEAKER_00
Well, because I think whether you re taking a thorough inventory and really admitting to yourself what your character defects are, I think you know them.
10
SPEAKER_00
I don t think you could even articulate them, but I think you know them.
10
SPEAKER_00
Somehow your body knows them.
10
SPEAKER_00
I can tell you, the one that will always trigger me, you invite 20 people over, everyone leaves but three people, and everyone sits around and talks about who they thought was annoying.
10
SPEAKER_00
It s never a consensus.
10
SPEAKER_00
It s always everyone s personal baggage.
10
SPEAKER_00
Mine is always like, oh my God, that guy needed so much attention.
10
SPEAKER_00
And that s because I need so much fucking attention.
10
SPEAKER_00
And I m often embarrassed with how much attention I m trying to seek.
10
SPEAKER_00
And then maybe even grodier, some competition.
10
SPEAKER_00
I don t want this guy who gets all this attention because I want all the attention, you know?
10
SPEAKER_00
Delicious.
10
SPEAKER_00
Let me start by saying I have loved you virtually from the minute I met you.
10
SPEAKER_00
You re so magical and you re so engaging and you re so curious and you re so fun and your brain is wonderful.
10
SPEAKER_00
I ve loved you just blindly since I ve met you.
10
SPEAKER_00
I have been judgmental over the years that you collect celebrities, female celebrities.
10
SPEAKER_00
It s irked me.
10
SPEAKER_00
I think because I met you and you had already collected Kristen.
10
SPEAKER_00
And then there were more that followed.
10
SPEAKER_00
And I remember it s just, I couldn t even pinpoint what my judgment is, but I just was aware of it.
10
SPEAKER_00
And I would think about it.
10
SPEAKER_00
And if I d bump into you and you were with yet another famous woman,
10
SPEAKER_00
I go, wow, this is such a weird pattern.
10
SPEAKER_00
I don t understand this pattern.
10
SPEAKER_00
But what s really interesting, it just happened today.
10
SPEAKER_00
I m reading your book, kind of learning of your relationship with your mother, and I m recognizing
10
SPEAKER_00
I have the exact same relationship.
10
SPEAKER_00
I mean, my mother s not a conservative or anything, but divorced, single mom, three kids.
10
SPEAKER_00
I m the husband she always wanted.
10
SPEAKER_00
I m the most like my dad.
10
SPEAKER_00
So here was this version of my dad, a man she loved more than anything.
10
SPEAKER_00
And she had the opportunity to make him into the version she wanted.
10
SPEAKER_00
And she succeeded.
10
SPEAKER_00
I m intensely loyal to her.
10
SPEAKER_00
My loyalty to her cannot be threatened because I can t have another mom.
10
SPEAKER_00
So we have this really interesting relationship that I adore, but maybe on the outside someone might go, this is a little incestuous or weird.
10
SPEAKER_00
But I think the gift she gave me is that through learning how to please her,
10
SPEAKER_00
and attend to her and to give her what she wanted, because I had good boy issues.
10
SPEAKER_00
I m very good at giving women what they want.
10
SPEAKER_00
And if I m being dead honest, I too collected female celebrities.
10
SPEAKER_00
I just did it sexually.
10
SPEAKER_00
And then I was like, oh, this is very curious.
10
SPEAKER_00
Maybe this thing I have with Jed is really just rooted in my own history, which is I have found
10
SPEAKER_00
the draw to these celebrity women irresistible.
10
SPEAKER_00
I ve wanted their approval.
10
SPEAKER_00
I ve wanted to learn how to make them happy.
10
SPEAKER_00
And I too collected them.
10
SPEAKER_00
I stopped because of the nature of sexual relationships, but had I not met Kristen and gotten married,
10
SPEAKER_00
I m sure I would have accumulated as many friends as you have, I would have accumulated sexual partners that are famous.
10
SPEAKER_02
Of course, I ve noticed this pattern as well in myself.
10
SPEAKER_02
And I ve been like, why?
10
SPEAKER_02
But then I am extremely psychotically extroverted social.
10
SPEAKER_02
I have more friends in general than I know of anyone that I ve ever met.
10
SPEAKER_00
Totally.
10
SPEAKER_02
You are a hub.
10
SPEAKER_02
And so by nature of that, I have lots of celebrity friends because they all hang out with each other.
10
SPEAKER_01
You live in L.A.
10
SPEAKER_02
I live in LA, but I have many more friends who are not, but it s just, you wouldn t clock those necessarily because your brain has never seen that person before.
10
SPEAKER_02
But- It s an inordinate amount.
10
SPEAKER_02
It s an inordinate amount.
10
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_00
Often, if I meet a female celebrity somewhere, I literally think I bet they know Jed, and very often they do.
10
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_02
Well, I ve never thought about it being this like, I have thought about why do gay men love Cate Blanchett and love all these female actresses?
10
SPEAKER_02
I do wonder,
10
SPEAKER_02
And I actually write about it a little bit in this book of like, why do gay men especially love middle-aged women?
10
SPEAKER_00
Yes, this whole mother thing.
10
SPEAKER_02
And I really do think you re onto something there where at that age, and there is some loose research that says that when a mother has a stressful pregnancy, it can have cascading effects on creating a gay son.
10
SPEAKER_02
Oh, really?
10
SPEAKER_02
Because gay boys are obsessed with their mothers and their peacemakers because they have both genders in their mind.
10
SPEAKER_02
So they can talk to the men and they can talk to the women.
10
SPEAKER_02
Gay men are obsessed with gossip and knowing what s the tea because we re like socially obsessed.
10
SPEAKER_02
Well, your life depends on it.
10
SPEAKER_02
There s a really good reason.
10
SPEAKER_02
I would say there s definitely something there.
10
SPEAKER_02
I had was KB.
10
SPEAKER_02
Right.
10
SPEAKER_02
She s a gateway drug.
10
SPEAKER_02
She was a gateway drug.
10
SPEAKER_02
But also it s interesting that she was the first I had.
10
SPEAKER_02
And then it was so fun because I am a surrogate dream husband.
10
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
10
SPEAKER_00
This is what I m saying.
10
SPEAKER_00
This is what I relate to about the childhood is like, I m a non-sexual dream husband to my mom.
10
SPEAKER_00
You re a non-sexual dream husband to your mom, but you re also a non-sexual dream boyfriend for all these ladies.
10
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_00
Which is why
10
SPEAKER_02
KB would take me to events.
10
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
10
SPEAKER_00
And have you in her home.
10
SPEAKER_00
She can t invite a dude that she likes a lot, finds very interesting into her home and not think the dude s gonna try to fuck her.
10
SPEAKER_00
It s so true.
10
SPEAKER_01
There s no threat.
10
SPEAKER_01
I mean, it s a very easy relationship.
10
SPEAKER_02
Like the male, yeah, the gay man and the girl friend.
10
SPEAKER_02
That s like a trope of all time.
10
SPEAKER_01
It is, it is.
10
SPEAKER_02
And it s very true.
10
SPEAKER_02
And I really enjoy, it s the
10
SPEAKER_02
Truman Capote, Andy Warhol of me, I think fame is fascinating.
10
SPEAKER_02
Sure.
10
SPEAKER_02
I think the way that it isolates you.
10
SPEAKER_02
And then I m also an evangelical Christian recovering.
10
SPEAKER_02
So like I want to save people and I m psychotically social and have zero social anxiety.
10
SPEAKER_02
So like I will walk up and talk to Michelle Obama right now.
10
SPEAKER_02
Yes, yes, yes.
10
SPEAKER_01
I feel nothing.
10
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_02
And that combination of things gives me access to be like, I m gonna go talk to her.
10
SPEAKER_02
By the way, no one talks to her, or she s developed such an incredible algorithm to see who s full of bullshit or wants something from her.
10
SPEAKER_02
And I just want to have an Aperol spritz by the pool.
10
SPEAKER_02
She s like, oh my God, me too.
10
SPEAKER_00
And I have, I m a writer, I have unlimited free time.
10
SPEAKER_00
No, but not yet.
10
SPEAKER_00
And I m starting to think they were friends, which is so plausible.
10
SPEAKER_01
Listen, I want to add something.
10
SPEAKER_01
I think after hearing this whole conversation, learning more about your relationship with your mother, which I didn t know, we are all born with a singular most powerful woman in our life.
10
SPEAKER_01
And as you ve made clear, you don t have the approval of yours, of the most powerful woman in your life who will always be the most powerful woman in your life.
10
SPEAKER_01
So it might feel nice.
10
SPEAKER_01
to get some approval from some powerful women.
10
SPEAKER_02
And you re probably seeking that.
10
SPEAKER_02
Wait, am I saying his name right?
10
SPEAKER_02
It s hard.
10
SPEAKER_02
Gabor.
10
SPEAKER_02
Gabor is in the room.
10
SPEAKER_02
This is exactly the truth.
10
SPEAKER_01
That s what it is.
10
SPEAKER_02
And I feel that I m looking for powerful women to approve of me.
10
SPEAKER_02
And it satiates something so fucking deep that I am unaware of it.
10
SPEAKER_02
It s like,
10
SPEAKER_02
I don t even know that I m arm candy for another gorgeous actress.
10
SPEAKER_02
I m just like, oh my God, I went to this thing, met her.
10
SPEAKER_02
Oh my God, we cackled.
10
SPEAKER_02
She invited me over.
10
SPEAKER_02
I don t even know it, but I m actually just trying to get my mom to say I approve of you.
10
SPEAKER_01
She does all three things.
10
SPEAKER_01
Yes, love, like, and approve.
10
SPEAKER_00
the best facsimile you can get.
10
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_00
Mine s a little different.
10
SPEAKER_00
Mine was, I have a bunch of secrets.
10
SPEAKER_00
One of them s carrying around being molested.
10
SPEAKER_00
And I think everyone will think I m gay if this comes out.
10
SPEAKER_00
And then also having this naughty dualistic nature, which was, I was perfect to my mom, but I also was an addict, got fucked up and did all that kind of stuff.
10
SPEAKER_00
And then so just, you know, pervasive low self-esteem.
10
SPEAKER_00
And for me, if this person of very high status and all the options in the world would pick me, I can prove to myself I really am worthy.
10
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t work.
10
SPEAKER_00
It works for like five minutes.
10
SPEAKER_00
But then you do the thing we were talking about earlier is you go, well, this person must not have been as special as I thought.
10
SPEAKER_00
It can t penetrate the low self-esteem.
10
SPEAKER_00
I have to generate it on my own for it to work and to be sustainable, but I certainly sought it insatiably.
10
SPEAKER_02
I m realizing as you say that, my sexual self-esteem is so profoundly low that the thought of a high status man isn t even interesting to me.
10
SPEAKER_02
If a high status man was attracted to me, I would not even perceive it, which has happened before.
10
SPEAKER_02
And I m like, I don t know why I m not attracted
11
SPEAKER_01
Interesting.
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_00
But now, you should make me pay to be on this show.
11
SPEAKER_01
You can bend money.
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
11
SPEAKER_00
Seven or eight dollars.
11
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, because you re protecting yourself.
11
SPEAKER_00
I guess.
11
SPEAKER_00
But I don t even have access.
11
SPEAKER_00
Even saying that causes no feeling.
11
SPEAKER_00
It s so intellectual.
11
SPEAKER_00
The wall is so strong from here to here.
11
SPEAKER_00
It s just going, ping, ping, ping.
11
SPEAKER_00
How interesting.
11
SPEAKER_00
La, la, la.
11
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_02
So I m really glad this whole thing happened today because I got to connect those dots.
11
SPEAKER_02
And I hadn t been thorough enough in investigating why that was activating to me, which is my own laziness.
11
SPEAKER_02
And maybe it s fun to just sit in judgment sometimes additionally.
11
SPEAKER_02
And you re so perfect.
11
SPEAKER_02
Otherwise, it s like the only thing I can really point to that makes you human.
11
SPEAKER_02
It s a great reminder that, yeah, what if that was the case?
11
SPEAKER_02
And what if I did that?
11
SPEAKER_02
Am I still OK?
11
SPEAKER_02
Am I still a good boy, even with this flaw I have?
11
SPEAKER_02
And I m not speaking for you, because obviously the results of this, whatever caused it,
11
SPEAKER_02
Every one of these friends of yours that I meet they love having you in their life.
11
SPEAKER_02
You re not taking money from anybody Yeah, you re not trying to use them to catapult you into fame.
11
SPEAKER_02
You re not Capote esque You re not writing a tell-all about anyone.
11
SPEAKER_02
So the result of it is largely just wonderful on all sides So in that way who gives a fuck really?
11
SPEAKER_02
I don t know the minds been as productive or constructive but I think I was trying to fill a hole with people which is not fair to them and
11
SPEAKER_00
Well, and also the like fucking famous people or befriending famous people.
11
SPEAKER_00
The only reason that that s a conversation is because there s a very visible pattern.
11
SPEAKER_00
Everyone has these patterns.
11
SPEAKER_00
You re dating this thing or that thing to fill that hole.
11
SPEAKER_00
You re befriending this person who has a good job versus that guy who doesn t.
11
SPEAKER_00
You re all doing that just to do something and you re not aware of it or you are.
11
SPEAKER_00
And if the pattern is insanely visible, then you re like, whoa, that s interesting.
11
SPEAKER_00
Cause it s like very clear.
11
SPEAKER_00
Yes, yes.
11
SPEAKER_00
And I would say one of the reasons that it probably irked you
11
SPEAKER_00
is because when you met me, you had the red light of he s taking advantage of her by living in her house and paying like $1 to live here.
11
SPEAKER_00
So that primered the algorithmic review.
11
SPEAKER_02
And I ll add, and this is not her words, I m not saying she s ever felt this at all, but then protection again over Kristen, when you had new friends and spent less time with her, and I was protective of her and saying,
11
SPEAKER_02
But what if you moved on?
11
SPEAKER_02
Mind you, life happened.
11
SPEAKER_02
She also met me and we ended up getting married and having kids and you became a writer and all these things have happened.
11
SPEAKER_00
I was also feeling, oh, she moved on.
11
SPEAKER_01
Right.
11
SPEAKER_01
That s the thing that this is not really fair because this is what happens when someone gets in a relationship.
11
SPEAKER_01
The single person on the outside just has to be like, well,
11
SPEAKER_01
Yes, I guess that s just the way life goes.
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_00
And it s happened a million times in my life.
11
SPEAKER_01
Me too.
11
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_01
But then if it s the opposite, if it s you re in a friendship and then you make a new friend, it s like, well, you just left me.
11
SPEAKER_01
But it s the exact same thing happening.
11
SPEAKER_01
One s just societally acceptable.
11
SPEAKER_02
Totally agree.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_02
If someone ditches their friends for a life partner, it seems justified.
11
SPEAKER_00
And you can t begrudge it.
11
SPEAKER_00
You re like, that s my dream.
11
SPEAKER_00
I m dying to ditch my friends.
11
SPEAKER_00
Sign me up.
11
SPEAKER_00
Where s the exit?
11
SPEAKER_00
I do have great friends.
11
SPEAKER_02
Does any of that offend you or is that okay?
11
SPEAKER_02
No, I m obsessed.
11
SPEAKER_02
Are you kidding?
11
SPEAKER_02
This is the quintessential thing I like about you.
11
SPEAKER_02
I hope it s something we have in common.
11
SPEAKER_00
Everything s on the table.
11
SPEAKER_00
I ve always loved the way your mind works because you re a friend of my mind, which is a Toni Morrison quote.
11
SPEAKER_00
I remember thinking I m over-minded, but having these subconscious rigidities, and there were two times, I can picture where we were, where I felt something shift in my brain, and these aren t that major, but I remember disparagingly talking about strippers, how they obviously don t want to be strippers, and you were like, you don t know that.
11
SPEAKER_00
I m sure you don t remember this conversation.
11
SPEAKER_00
You re like, they may love that job.
11
SPEAKER_00
I know strippers that love that job and it s very empowering and they ve taken the power of their sexuality back.
11
SPEAKER_00
And I had never thought about them having any agency.
11
SPEAKER_00
And it was very profound to me.
11
SPEAKER_00
Another example was disparagingly talking about Chinese media and how they have no free or whatever.
11
SPEAKER_00
And you just said something like, well, imagine governing a billion people.
11
SPEAKER_00
Look how good they re doing.
11
SPEAKER_00
Something is working over there.
11
SPEAKER_00
And I just remember, wow, he really does think about it from different directions.
11
SPEAKER_00
And I don t even realize that I ve been fed a way to think in so many different ways.
11
SPEAKER_02
I stand by the first one and I m embarrassed by the second one, but I ll tell you.
11
SPEAKER_00
But it s just very interesting.
11
SPEAKER_02
I do think that I have said about China that they took people from 1947 to 2020 in three years.
11
SPEAKER_02
I m not sure what the perfect approach to that was, but that does seem like a Herculean task.
11
SPEAKER_02
It s interesting at very minimum.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_02
I love you.
11
SPEAKER_02
I could do this weekly with you.
11
SPEAKER_02
I mean, you re just endlessly interesting.
11
SPEAKER_02
And this was one of those few ones where I m like, I don t really need to do any research.
11
SPEAKER_02
I know that Jed will show up.
11
SPEAKER_02
And we ve never ever sat down and not just exploded for the next three hours.
11
SPEAKER_02
I feel very lucky to have met you in my life.
11
SPEAKER_00
I feel the same way about both of you.
11
SPEAKER_00
And you re a beautiful writer.
11
SPEAKER_00
This is like the thing we said when we started is so many writers are not interesting talkers.
11
SPEAKER_00
The cadence is not right.
11
SPEAKER_00
I m sure the word structure is beautiful, but the cadence is not interesting.
11
SPEAKER_00
I m a talker first.
11
SPEAKER_00
I just happen to write.
11
SPEAKER_00
You ve learned how to write how you talk.
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, but I want to talk.
11
SPEAKER_00
I want to Fran Lebowitz my way through life.
11
SPEAKER_00
I want to smoke a cig and drink and talk all hours forever.
11
SPEAKER_00
And that s what I love about this and about y all.
11
SPEAKER_00
It s so delicious.
11
SPEAKER_02
It s not a coincidence that Kristen was living with you up until the point she lived with me.
11
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_00
She likes it.
11
SPEAKER_00
On our next weekly, I know we have lives.
11
SPEAKER_00
Let me just soft launch this for the next one.
11
SPEAKER_00
LOL.
11
SPEAKER_00
The gay experience is so like, I m dreaming.
11
SPEAKER_00
I ve entered the fourth floor.
11
SPEAKER_00
I m in my forties.
11
SPEAKER_00
I want to have a long-term husband.
11
SPEAKER_00
So I feel so late, but so much of the gay community, especially is they re all open relationships or, you know, primary partner or
11
SPEAKER_00
how hard it is to stay together.
11
SPEAKER_00
And then I watched that amazing show Couples Therapy on Showtime.
11
SPEAKER_00
If you haven t watched it, I watched it all without getting up or going to the bathroom.
11
SPEAKER_00
It s unbelievable.
11
SPEAKER_02
I want to see that.
11
SPEAKER_02
Is it like Esther Perel s?
11
SPEAKER_00
It s exactly like that.
11
SPEAKER_00
The show is so well done.
11
SPEAKER_00
But I just was like, I think I want to be in a committed monogamous relationship for the rest of my life.
11
SPEAKER_00
I love the idea of partnership.
11
SPEAKER_00
I love the idea of building something together.
11
SPEAKER_00
But it s so hard to find gay examples of that.
11
SPEAKER_00
You re a sexual conquest alpha male, and then you found your partner.
11
SPEAKER_00
I just wanted to ask you someday, what has that journey been like to commit to someone like this?
11
SPEAKER_00
And like your sexual appetite and what you need and having that conversation and then have you ever...
11
SPEAKER_00
I was talking to a gay guy about this who was older than me in his 50s and he said, well, you know, many millions of the gay monogamous husbands that you could look at as an idol died in the AIDS epidemic.
11
SPEAKER_00
Like you lost a whole generation of potential elders.
11
SPEAKER_00
So no wonder you look around, which was very interesting to me.
11
SPEAKER_02
That is incredibly true.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_02
The parents kind of went away.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, gone.
11
SPEAKER_00
And all the young, new gay guys, I m seeing how to figure it all out.
11
SPEAKER_00
I know, but I was just so curious for your wisdom.
11
SPEAKER_00
I guess I needed to book like 12 hours in the office.
11
SPEAKER_00
So anyway, we don t have to talk about that now.
11
SPEAKER_02
No, but that is one of my favorite topics as we ve talked in the past.
11
SPEAKER_02
I love you, Jedediah Jenkins.
11
SPEAKER_02
I love you.
11
SPEAKER_02
Everybody reads Mother Nature.
11
SPEAKER_02
You re just a very effortless writer.
11
SPEAKER_02
It s very fun and very playful, yet it s not at any point cumbersome, which is a hard line to tow, I think.
11
SPEAKER_02
Mother comma nature, a 5,000 mile journey to discover if a mother and son can survive their differences.
11
SPEAKER_02
Jedediah Jenkins, I love you.
11
SPEAKER_02
Thanks for coming.
11
SPEAKER_00
I love you.
11
SPEAKER_00
Thank you.
11
SPEAKER_02
I love the attic.
11
SPEAKER_02
Next up is the fact check.
11
SPEAKER_02
I don t even care about facts.
11
SPEAKER_02
I just want to get into your pants.
11
SPEAKER_02
Is it warm there where you re sitting?
11
SPEAKER_01
Um, I guess.
11
SPEAKER_02
You can t feel any human heat?
11
SPEAKER_01
No.
11
SPEAKER_02
Monica has just occupied the seat of someone that was sitting there for two hours.
11
SPEAKER_01
I m already in a sweat.
11
SPEAKER_01
I m in many layers.
11
SPEAKER_02
Are you hot?
11
SPEAKER_01
No, now I feel cold.
11
SPEAKER_02
You re cold.
11
SPEAKER_02
Okay, good.
11
SPEAKER_01
But I m about to feel so hot because I m going to go cook a bunch of stuff.
11
SPEAKER_02
Oh, that s what s next.
11
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
11
SPEAKER_02
Are you getting nervous?
11
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
11
SPEAKER_01
I have Alison Roman Thanksgiving dinner.
11
SPEAKER_01
Tonight.
11
SPEAKER_01
Tonight.
11
SPEAKER_02
Which is not
11
SPEAKER_01
It s not ideal.
11
SPEAKER_02
Well, so I m agreeing to go behind the curtain.
11
SPEAKER_02
It s not actually Thanksgiving.
11
SPEAKER_01
Because it is Thanksgiving.
11
SPEAKER_02
Right.
11
SPEAKER_01
Happy Thanksgiving.
11
SPEAKER_02
Happy Thanksgiving.
11
SPEAKER_02
I m so grateful for you.
11
SPEAKER_01
I m so grateful for you.
11
SPEAKER_01
I was thinking about it on my walk here.
11
SPEAKER_01
You were?
11
SPEAKER_01
I didn t walk here, but from my walk to the car to the door.
11
SPEAKER_02
From your door to the 30 feet.
11
SPEAKER_02
It s a short walk.
11
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it was a brief little thought.
11
SPEAKER_01
Small thought, but meaningful.
11
SPEAKER_02
Right.
11
SPEAKER_01
I m very grateful.
11
SPEAKER_02
I am very grateful.
11
SPEAKER_02
And Wobby Wob, I m very grateful for you.
11
SPEAKER_00
You guys too.
11
SPEAKER_01
I m very grateful for this attic and this show.
11
SPEAKER_01
More than the show, the past nine years since I met you, I ve changed more in the last nine years than I have in the previous 27 years.
11
SPEAKER_02
Really, do you think so?
11
SPEAKER_01
Definitely.
11
SPEAKER_01
Oh, wow.
11
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and I really do credit you for that.
11
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I do.
11
SPEAKER_02
No way.
11
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I do.
11
SPEAKER_01
I don t think I would be this version of me if you hadn t.
12
SPEAKER_02
entered my life.
12
SPEAKER_00
That might be the nicest compliment I ve ever heard.
12
SPEAKER_00
That s so sweet.
12
SPEAKER_00
Thank you.
12
SPEAKER_02
It s really true.
12
SPEAKER_00
You know, one thing I do remember, not that I m going to take credit or even agree with that assessment, but I think one thing that was really fun for me was that I knew a side of you
12
SPEAKER_00
that no one seemed to really know.
12
SPEAKER_00
Even in our friendship circles, people started listening to the podcast.
12
SPEAKER_00
They were like, oh wow, Monica s X, Y, and Z. And I m like, yeah, 100%.
12
SPEAKER_02
Obviously this isn t the same thing, but it kind of is because every relationship people have, regardless of the kind it is, is a love story of sorts.
12
SPEAKER_02
You know, did I say it on here that, you know, I ve had a couple of dates and on one of them I left and I realized I like me on that date.
12
SPEAKER_00
Oh, right.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yes, yes, yes.
12
SPEAKER_02
I like the version of myself on that date.
12
SPEAKER_00
Right.
12
SPEAKER_02
I have that here.
12
SPEAKER_02
I have that with you.
12
SPEAKER_00
Right.
12
SPEAKER_02
Where I like who I am.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
12
SPEAKER_02
When I m with you.
12
SPEAKER_00
Right back at you.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
12
SPEAKER_02
So I learned that from here.
12
SPEAKER_00
Wow, that makes me so happy.
12
SPEAKER_02
Good, yeah.
12
SPEAKER_02
So we have Friendsgiving slash Thanksgiving slash Secret Turkey today.
12
SPEAKER_02
Today when you guys are listening to this.
12
SPEAKER_01
On real Thanksgiving.
12
SPEAKER_02
On real Thanksgiving.
12
SPEAKER_01
You can also listen to this tomorrow.
12
SPEAKER_02
Well, that s on the people.
12
SPEAKER_00
They re gonna have to do the math.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s not on me.
12
SPEAKER_00
It s on them to know this came out on Thursday.
12
SPEAKER_00
But we will all be together right now.
12
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, we ll all be together.
12
SPEAKER_02
I m so excited.
12
SPEAKER_00
Me too.
12
SPEAKER_00
Last year was just so fucking heavenly.
12
SPEAKER_02
It was.
12
SPEAKER_02
How s your secret turkey going?
12
SPEAKER_00
Um, it s in the works.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah in the works.
12
SPEAKER_00
I got some work to do tomorrow.
12
SPEAKER_02
I think after we record I know I have some work to do I had a I had an idea.
12
SPEAKER_00
Uh-huh And I really quick secret turkey is something that molly and eric s daughter lily orchestrates and she sends us all texts and it s incredible and last year I was and I think I admitted to this last year.
12
SPEAKER_00
I was like, I don t want to fight
12
SPEAKER_00
I got already host, I don t need another thing.
12
SPEAKER_00
So it kind of was like begrudgingly participating.
12
SPEAKER_00
And then it turned out to be the greatest Thanksgiving ever.
12
SPEAKER_00
And solely because of this thing she orchestrated.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yes, it was so fun and heartwarming.
12
SPEAKER_00
And Wilder, when we had to give thanks for things, he said, I m thankful for eggs and bacon.
12
SPEAKER_00
And he was sincere.
12
SPEAKER_00
And then his present he had gotten for somebody was eggs and bacon.
12
SPEAKER_00
It was a theme.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yes, and he was sincere.
12
SPEAKER_00
At four or five, his favorite thing was eggs and bacon.
12
SPEAKER_02
Everyone gets assigned via the random, like, machine a name of someone in our group, and then we have to make a present for them.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and it can be a song, it can be a poem, it can be a story, it can be an actual gift.
12
SPEAKER_02
It could be anything.
12
SPEAKER_00
It could be anything.
12
SPEAKER_02
And I had an idea immediately when I got assigned my turkey.
12
SPEAKER_02
I just like figured I could execute it.
12
SPEAKER_02
And then yesterday I was looking into it and I panicked.
12
SPEAKER_00
Realizing how hard it s gonna be to execute?
12
SPEAKER_02
Yes, and I was like, I don t actually, I don t think I can.
12
SPEAKER_00
Okay, too big of a swing.
12
SPEAKER_02
It was gonna be a food item, but it required eating immediately.
12
SPEAKER_00
Oh, okay.
12
SPEAKER_02
And that was not gonna happen.
12
SPEAKER_00
That s hard to gauge.
12
SPEAKER_02
Exactly.
12
SPEAKER_02
So I had to scrap that and then I was panicked and then I was up for a while, like trying to figure out a plan B. Okay.
12
SPEAKER_02
And I did figure it out, so I think it ll be still fine.
12
SPEAKER_02
But it s also funny because everyone s like, like Matt texted me today asking me a question, a very specific question about my last year s, and I was like, everyone s just like trying to make their turkey work.
12
SPEAKER_00
It s a little stressful, it s a little stressful, yeah.
12
SPEAKER_02
It is, but it s worth it.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
12
SPEAKER_02
Anyway, so today we re all together.
12
SPEAKER_02
We re exchanging secret turkeys right now.
12
SPEAKER_02
It s a beautiful thing.
12
SPEAKER_00
We re finding out if Wilder s still grateful for eggs and bacon or if he s added breakfast sausage or something.
12
SPEAKER_02
How his palate has changed.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, we re going to find out.
12
SPEAKER_02
But then three days ago, Monday, which
12
SPEAKER_00
I- Hosted another Friendsgiving.
12
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
12
SPEAKER_00
I like this.
12
SPEAKER_00
There should be three or four Friendsgivings.
12
SPEAKER_00
Why not?
12
SPEAKER_02
The reason I did it, I think I mentioned this before, but just in case, the reason I did it is because Kristen orders all the food for our Thanksgiving, thank God, luckily, so that everyone can feel so relaxed.
12
SPEAKER_02
It s so nice and generous.
12
SPEAKER_02
but I m also in a cooking phase.
12
SPEAKER_00
You are a cook, you re a burgeoning cook.
12
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and so, and Alison Roman has the hour long Thanksgiving special and I wanted to put my real skills to the test.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
12
SPEAKER_02
So I invited some stragglers, people who won t be at our Friendsgiving over.
12
SPEAKER_02
So there ll be seven of us, including me.
12
SPEAKER_00
Okay, that s a good group.
12
SPEAKER_02
I m in a little over my head.
12
SPEAKER_00
Oh, you got a little too many dishes going?
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
12
SPEAKER_00
Too many dishes?
12
SPEAKER_00
Yep.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I love it.
12
SPEAKER_02
I did a lot yesterday.
12
SPEAKER_00
So you need to be home right now, basically, right?
12
SPEAKER_02
I needed to not have worked at all today, but it s fine.
12
SPEAKER_00
Or had the like 20 minute picture sesh after the episode maybe.
12
SPEAKER_02
Well, it s fine, it s fine.
12
SPEAKER_02
I wrote out a schedule.
12
Oh my God.
12
SPEAKER_02
I wrote out two versions of the schedule in case, depending on when I got home.
12
SPEAKER_00
Oh, okay.
12
SPEAKER_02
So it s fine.
12
SPEAKER_02
I did a lot yesterday.
12
SPEAKER_00
Great.
12
SPEAKER_02
And we ll see.
12
SPEAKER_00
How long do you got to bake the turkey?
12
SPEAKER_02
Three hours.
12
SPEAKER_00
Oh, Jesus.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
12
SPEAKER_00
So you re really under the gun.
12
SPEAKER_00
What time do people think they re eating?
12
SPEAKER_02
I told people to come at seven that would probably eat at eight.
12
SPEAKER_00
Okay, that s going to work out just fine.
12
SPEAKER_00
It s going to be fine.
12
SPEAKER_00
That s plenty of time.
12
SPEAKER_02
The problem is with Thanksgiving and big meals like this, it s the staggering of the oven.
12
SPEAKER_00
Mm, yes, you need six or seven ovens on the day.
12
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, because I have to put the stuffing in after the turkey.
12
SPEAKER_00
Right.
12
SPEAKER_00
At a different time.
12
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
12
SPEAKER_00
But it s okay.
12
SPEAKER_00
It ll work, it ll work.
12
SPEAKER_00
And we re not even sure that your oven s temperature is correct, right?
12
SPEAKER_00
No.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
12
SPEAKER_00
If you re a great chef in that kitchen, just think what you ll be at your new house.
12
SPEAKER_00
For people who have not been in Monica s kitchen, it is a 38 year old entry level, very small range.
12
SPEAKER_02
It s tiny and old.
12
SPEAKER_02
And yes, but it s good practice because eventually when I am in the house, I do want to have big stuff there.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, we won t be ordering anymore.
12
SPEAKER_00
We ll be walking across the street and getting the whole shebang.
12
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
12
SPEAKER_00
This is kind of a ding, ding, ding.
12
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
12
SPEAKER_00
Because last year we went to Michael Voltaggio s house.
12
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
12
SPEAKER_00
And he made us for Flightless Bird, a Thanksgiving dinner.
12
Yes.
12
SPEAKER_00
And this weekend in Vegas, we went to his restaurant, Retro,
12
SPEAKER_00
How was it?
12
SPEAKER_00
Unreal.
12
SPEAKER_00
First of all, Wabiwab was texting with him.
12
SPEAKER_00
And Wabi told him we wanted to go down there.
12
SPEAKER_00
And he s like, yeah, of course, go down there.
12
SPEAKER_00
And then he said, I ll come down and cook for you guys.
12
SPEAKER_01
He was at another restaurant.
12
SPEAKER_01
He was outside the Bellagio cooking some like activation with his brother.
12
SPEAKER_01
And they were like, we re gonna come cook for you guys.
12
SPEAKER_01
Unreal.
12
SPEAKER_00
The generosity, endless kindness of Michael is so unparalleled.
12
SPEAKER_02
So nice.
12
SPEAKER_00
He s so fucking cool too.
12
SPEAKER_00
Every time he put the food down, I wanted him to jump on a skateboard and go back to the kitchen.
12
SPEAKER_00
That s how cool he looked.
12
SPEAKER_00
Or drop the food and like fucking do a riff on the guitar and then bail.
12
SPEAKER_02
I wonder how him and Aabria are doing.
12
SPEAKER_00
Great.
12
SPEAKER_02
Great.
12
SPEAKER_01
It sounded like everything was honky-tonk.
12
SPEAKER_01
Good.
12
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, he feel married.
12
SPEAKER_01
He flew home for their anniversary the next night to do a big dinner.
12
SPEAKER_02
Lovely.
12
SPEAKER_02
Okay, so it was so insanely good.
12
SPEAKER_00
It was so insanely good.
12
SPEAKER_00
And then of course, back to the generosity, he just put the truffle on our table with the fucking... Shaver, whatever.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
12
SPEAKER_00
He s like, put it on everything, put it on so much.
12
SPEAKER_02
Oh my God.
12
SPEAKER_00
I was like, this is too nice.
12
SPEAKER_00
I m jealous.
12
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
12
SPEAKER_00
It was outrageous.
12
SPEAKER_00
It was so delicious.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yum.
12
SPEAKER_00
And that, it s a year anniversary since we met him before Thanksgiving.
12
SPEAKER_02
Yes, how lovely.
12
SPEAKER_00
So updates.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yes, updates.
12
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
12
SPEAKER_00
So I think the thing, the most important update is our live show.
12
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I wanna hear about it.
12
SPEAKER_02
Your F1 live show.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yes, F1 live show.
12
SPEAKER_00
And Wabi Wan was there for the whole thing.
12
SPEAKER_00
He set up cameras.
12
SPEAKER_00
It was such an epic disaster.
12
SPEAKER_00
It was such an epic disaster.
12
SPEAKER_02
Why?
12
SPEAKER_00
I ll need Rob to participate, but it started right away.
12
SPEAKER_00
So there s six chairs on a little stage and then there s like 20 feet in between the stage and then a bar.
12
SPEAKER_00
And there s about 18 people, real mismatch group,
12
SPEAKER_01
The Margaritaville converted into this club.
12
SPEAKER_01
Thanks for starting, yes.
12
SPEAKER_01
And we re right outside a gift shop that they cover the entrance with an LED screen.
12
SPEAKER_01
Okay, okay, okay.
12
SPEAKER_00
So it s just like, ooh, okay, this is the environment.
12
SPEAKER_00
Not ideal.
12
SPEAKER_00
That s fine, I m gonna push through.
12
SPEAKER_00
I ve done a lot of live shows, we can do this.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
12
SPEAKER_00
As we re sitting down, we start getting heckled.
12
SPEAKER_00
But we re not even like, we haven t started.
12
SPEAKER_00
Five minutes, a lady has to come on stage.
12
SPEAKER_00
Well, before that, the fashion.
12
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
12
SPEAKER_00
Guy in fashion school.
12
SPEAKER_00
Two dudes are already yelling out stuff very loudly.
12
SPEAKER_00
And then I asked really quickly, and who here is, this is their first race.
12
SPEAKER_00
A hundred percent of the hands go up.
12
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
12
SPEAKER_00
Who here watches the races on TV?
12
SPEAKER_00
Not one hand.
12
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
13
SPEAKER_01
to do a Formula One podcast in front of 18 people who don t know one thing about Formula One.
13
SPEAKER_01
And they re not interested either.
13
SPEAKER_01
Also, what you probably wouldn t know is that Practice One only went on for seven or eight minutes.
13
SPEAKER_01
And then Carlos Stein drove over this manhole cover, ripped the bottom of the car in half.
13
SPEAKER_01
They canceled practice one, then they canceled practice two.
13
SPEAKER_01
By the time we take the stage, it looks like perhaps there s not even gonna be a race after all of this stuff.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and then about five minutes in, this gal just decided she s coming up there to take a picture with me, and that s that.
13
SPEAKER_01
Doesn t matter we re talking.
13
SPEAKER_01
I had to take a picture with you that she s up, she s up on stage.
13
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, was everyone so drunk?
13
SPEAKER_01
Yes, open bar.
13
SPEAKER_01
Open bar and no practice to watch.
13
SPEAKER_01
And what are we doing now?
13
SPEAKER_01
Let s just get hammered.
13
SPEAKER_01
Not Formula One fans, not fans of us, so random.
13
SPEAKER_01
She came up, that was a whole thing.
13
SPEAKER_01
Thought, oh, I ll make some lemonade out of the lemon here.
13
SPEAKER_01
I ll interview her a little bit.
13
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
13
SPEAKER_01
She couldn t do it.
13
SPEAKER_01
Oh my God.
13
SPEAKER_01
On your lap.
13
SPEAKER_01
She s, yes.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
13
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
13
SPEAKER_01
Then I want to play Fuck, Marry, Kill with a team, you know, Toto Lewis and whatever in Georgia.
13
SPEAKER_01
So I say, who wants to play Fuck, Marry, Kill?
13
SPEAKER_01
This older woman.
13
SPEAKER_01
I m playing.
13
SPEAKER_01
She comes piling up.
13
SPEAKER_01
But I don t know any of these people.
13
SPEAKER_01
My son will pick.
13
SPEAKER_01
My son will pick for her.
13
SPEAKER_01
So he s there with his mom.
13
SPEAKER_01
She s blasted.
13
SPEAKER_01
He s so nice.
13
SPEAKER_01
He s so sweet.
13
SPEAKER_01
I ended up talking like a 38 year old.
13
SPEAKER_01
He s a man.
13
SPEAKER_01
So now both of them are up there.
13
SPEAKER_01
The mom is sitting on my lap.
13
SPEAKER_01
She s going, I love your wife.
13
SPEAKER_01
But she s also seemingly trying to kiss me.
13
SPEAKER_01
Is that, would you say that s accurate?
13
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We ve lost complete, we never had control, but we lost complete control.
13
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She was so hammered.
13
SPEAKER_01
The son has to say who she would fuck, marry, and kill.
13
SPEAKER_01
I was like, oh my God, this is insane.
13
SPEAKER_01
Then another thing happened.
13
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Kaylin and Rob are asking, do we need to do something to step in?
13
SPEAKER_00
Do we need our security to do something?
13
SPEAKER_01
So now we bring Caitlyn and Rob out into this mess.
13
SPEAKER_02
Rob McElhaney and Caitlyn Olsen.
13
SPEAKER_01
The nicest friends I have.
13
SPEAKER_01
I mean the fact that they...
13
SPEAKER_01
continued to join me on stage when this was going on.
13
SPEAKER_02
I mean, it was a bloodbath.
13
SPEAKER_01
It was gonna be an episode of the podcast, basically, a live episode of the podcast.
13
SPEAKER_01
If there was some audience participation, great, that can be in the show.
13
SPEAKER_01
And then Rob and Caitlin are gonna come out, because Rob and Caitlin own a percentage of Alpine.
13
SPEAKER_01
They bought in with this investment group with Ryan Reynolds.
13
SPEAKER_01
So now they re team owners too.
13
SPEAKER_01
So this is gonna be great.
13
SPEAKER_01
A, they re super entertaining, they re both hysterical, and they have a real role in this sport.
13
SPEAKER_02
Got it.
13
SPEAKER_01
But no one there cares at all that they own.
13
SPEAKER_01
They ve never heard of LP.
13
SPEAKER_01
No one knows.
13
SPEAKER_01
No one knows anything.
13
SPEAKER_01
When you think it can t go worse, I look over at Jethro.
13
SPEAKER_01
Jethro, in his own words, is having an out-of-body experience.
13
SPEAKER_01
He doesn t know what we re gonna do, and we re supposed to do an hour of this, and it s already gone so off the rails.
13
SPEAKER_00
It s like 20 minutes in at that point.
13
SPEAKER_00
When they come on.
13
SPEAKER_01
Monica, Monica, Monica, Monica.
13
SPEAKER_01
We re not even to the punchline.
13
SPEAKER_02
Oh God, okay.
13
SPEAKER_01
This dude, which I had missed this because I was so busy with all the other stuff.
13
SPEAKER_01
There s a man who has made his way over to Matt and he just keeps shoving Matt.
13
SPEAKER_01
And he s going, you look awesome.
13
SPEAKER_01
I like how you look.
13
SPEAKER_01
He s like, take a picture.
13
SPEAKER_01
And he s like, he s shoving Matt and he s telling Matt he looks awesome.
13
SPEAKER_01
He s getting a picture with him.
13
SPEAKER_01
And then he makes his way up to right in front of us, nine feet in front of us.
13
SPEAKER_01
He s got his camera, he s filming, he s falling.
13
SPEAKER_01
And he s screaming the whole time.
13
SPEAKER_01
He wants me to say something.
13
SPEAKER_01
It takes me 10 minutes to figure out.
13
SPEAKER_01
I think he wants me to talk like Frito.
13
SPEAKER_01
I think.
13
SPEAKER_01
I m still not sure.
13
SPEAKER_01
He s falling, he s going, I say this, you say this.
13
SPEAKER_01
You can t hear us.
13
SPEAKER_01
All you can hear is this crazy drunk guy who s falling everywhere.
13
SPEAKER_01
He s a big guy.
13
SPEAKER_01
I get out of him at some point.
13
SPEAKER_01
I m like, sir, who are you here with?
13
SPEAKER_01
My clients!
13
SPEAKER_01
And I look behind him and there are like eight normal people that are his clients.
13
SPEAKER_01
They re loving it because here s their whatever, their supplier, who is taking charge of this weird thing they re witnessing.
13
SPEAKER_01
And he is blasting, there s no guarantee.
13
SPEAKER_01
There was a very distinct moment, and I can t believe this happened, where I was like,
13
SPEAKER_01
There s a semi-likely chance that we re fighting.
13
SPEAKER_01
Like that we re literally, that that s what s gonna escalate to.
13
SPEAKER_01
That s how out of control the whole situation was.
13
Oh my God.
13
SPEAKER_02
Okay, listen.
13
SPEAKER_01
Monica.
13
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I... And you have to imagine my embarrassment also that I ve ensnared Rob and Caitlin into this.
13
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
13
SPEAKER_01
Right?
13
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I m having like deep, deep fucking regret and shame that I somehow got them ensnared in this.
13
SPEAKER_02
And you re probably embarrassed.
13
SPEAKER_01
I m embarrassed, but I m actually, at this moment, there s no room for that.
13
SPEAKER_01
I m doing what I can to keep my head above water, because if I let that in, I m supposed to be the person up there of these six people that s in charge.
13
SPEAKER_02
Well, that s why I m panicking right now, because I love, I love all the boys that were there, okay?
13
SPEAKER_02
Including Wobby Wob.
13
SPEAKER_02
But I know that everyone was looking to you.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yes, I felt an extreme amount of pressure to.
13
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, but like you aren t always amazing in those types of situations.
13
SPEAKER_02
And so it stresses me out to think that there wasn t like a me there to say, okay, I think we re actually gonna be done now and us leave.
13
SPEAKER_02
Because shocked you didn t get in a fight.
13
SPEAKER_01
And I wasn t even mean to anyone, I don t think, was I?
13
SPEAKER_01
No.
13
SPEAKER_01
No, I never got mean either.
13
SPEAKER_01
They were confused at the end of that quickly, but they re like, is he mad?
13
SPEAKER_01
I m like, no.
13
SPEAKER_01
Thank God.
13
SPEAKER_01
You know what saved me?
13
SPEAKER_01
Is Rob and Caitlin started making fun of the whole thing.
13
SPEAKER_01
Rob goes, wow, do you do this show live a lot?
13
SPEAKER_01
And then I go, yes, but only if it s at a bar and nobody knows what I m talking about and then we ll be there.
13
SPEAKER_01
And then Caitlin goes, well, the audience participation is going so well, why don t you engage the audience?
13
SPEAKER_01
So once they started making fun of it, at least that was helpful.
13
SPEAKER_01
We have something to do.
13
SPEAKER_01
Because we couldn t do the podcast.
13
SPEAKER_01
We couldn t talk about racing because they would just start screaming and yelling and wanting to come up and take pictures because they didn t want to hear about Formula One at all.
13
SPEAKER_01
And then I did, I m like, okay, well this, something like this train wreck has come to a close.
13
SPEAKER_01
And I was, all I was trying to do was like, we were supposed to do an hour.
13
SPEAKER_01
I was trying to get to 40 minutes.
13
SPEAKER_01
I m like, 40 minutes, I don t think we re gonna get asked to refund our money.
13
SPEAKER_01
and I made about 39 minutes.
13
SPEAKER_01
I pulled the plug.
13
SPEAKER_01
But all that to say, I had just been talking about how much I loved in the groundlings when you had failed together.
13
SPEAKER_01
It becomes so much more fun after the fact.
13
SPEAKER_01
So after the fact was really fun, because we went out to eat late at night and Jethro s processing what just happened, he doesn t have any experience.
13
SPEAKER_01
No one did.
13
SPEAKER_01
No one did, except for me.
13
SPEAKER_01
So to be able to then navigate the fallout of like, oh my God, that was embarrassing.
13
SPEAKER_01
Wow, that was rough, blah, blah, blah.
13
SPEAKER_01
And then me going, yes, but you will remember this for the rest of your life.
13
SPEAKER_01
We have a moment now in our lives.
13
SPEAKER_02
That s lovely.
13
SPEAKER_01
As bonding, we shared that moment and that is actually weirdly more valuable than it having gone great.
13
SPEAKER_01
We wouldn t have remembered if it went great.
13
SPEAKER_02
True.
13
SPEAKER_02
Wow, wow, wow, wow.
13
SPEAKER_01
But we did have a great time.
13
SPEAKER_01
We had a great time.
13
SPEAKER_01
Good.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, we had so much fun.
13
SPEAKER_02
Okay, this is for Jed.
13
SPEAKER_01
Oh, wonderful.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
13
SPEAKER_01
I ve been very much wanting this episode to come out.
13
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it s great.
13
SPEAKER_02
He s just really, really fun to listen to.
13
SPEAKER_01
He is.
13
SPEAKER_01
He s so interesting.
13
SPEAKER_01
He s so funny.
13
SPEAKER_01
And he has the best taste.
13
SPEAKER_01
So as everyone has heard, we have been talking about couples therapy nonstop.
13
SPEAKER_01
That came from him.
13
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I did.
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I said like, what are you watching?
13
SPEAKER_01
I everything he s turned us on to so many different things over the years and he was the one that said he loved couples therapy.
13
SPEAKER_02
And I love couples.
13
SPEAKER_02
I watched the whole I m done and I m sad.
13
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it sucks.
13
SPEAKER_02
It really is like the world is bad.
13
SPEAKER_01
We should get Orna in here.
13
SPEAKER_02
I want to and I want her to give us couples therapy.
13
SPEAKER_01
Oh, that would be great.
13
SPEAKER_01
Wouldn t that be fun and scary and fun?
13
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, it s terrifying, terrifying.
13
SPEAKER_02
What I love about Orna, the couples therapist in Couples Therapy, the show, she is a psychoanalyst.
13
SPEAKER_02
So she does a different type, actually it s a ding, ding, ding to Dr. Becky, who when we had her on and she was saying in New York, psychoanalysts are the primary,
13
SPEAKER_01
methodology?
13
SPEAKER_02
Yes, for therapy as opposed to CBT or anything behavioral.
13
SPEAKER_02
And I ve always been like, eh, I don t like that.
13
SPEAKER_02
But seeing Orna do her thing, it has made me feel like maybe I should have that too.
13
SPEAKER_02
I should have two.
13
SPEAKER_02
Right, right.
13
SPEAKER_02
Cause I really, I love my, my therapist has saved my life, but she doesn t do that.
13
SPEAKER_01
Right.
13
SPEAKER_02
And I kind of in therapy on Saturday,
13
SPEAKER_01
I want you to be more like Orna.
13
SPEAKER_02
But I was like, yeah, I think I have this thing from childhood.
13
SPEAKER_02
And she s like, yeah, but like, she like doesn t
14
SPEAKER_00
really want to go there, like she will, but it s not her focus.
14
SPEAKER_02
Well, like all things, this notion that there s one s right and one s wrong or one s better and one s worse, like they both have value.
14
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
14
SPEAKER_00
But then it s like, how many therapists can I have?
14
SPEAKER_02
Seven, I guess, one each day of the week.
14
SPEAKER_02
She has the same Esther thing, which is Orna s very sexy.
14
SPEAKER_02
Do you see it?
14
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
14
SPEAKER_00
She s sexy because she feels all-knowing.
14
SPEAKER_00
She doesn t say very much and all of a sudden people who are so closed off.
14
SPEAKER_02
Slam door.
14
SPEAKER_00
No one could ever get in there.
14
SPEAKER_00
She does it with very little.
14
SPEAKER_02
It s like magic.
14
SPEAKER_02
I know.
14
SPEAKER_02
There was the one guy couldn t stand and she wanted to give up on him and they told her to keep going.
14
SPEAKER_00
Then you learn a little
14
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, we re starting to learn a little more about them.
14
SPEAKER_02
But when she occasionally, and she admits it, which I love, she s super charmed by that lesbian couple.
14
SPEAKER_00
I know.
14
SPEAKER_00
They are so incredible.
14
SPEAKER_02
But at any rate, when Orna is charmed and she laughs sometimes, like we were watching it, Kristen and I, I was like,
14
SPEAKER_02
Dude, if you were on a date with Orna and she hit you with that three or four times, you would just be fucked.
14
SPEAKER_02
Like she s so... What?
14
SPEAKER_00
Tell me.
14
SPEAKER_00
No, that s because you... Because she s reserved.
14
SPEAKER_00
She s not.
14
SPEAKER_00
That s her job is to be fairly closed off and to not give... And that she has a secret side.
14
SPEAKER_00
She s just trying to be very, very neutral.
14
SPEAKER_00
So those cracks, the laughter, I like them too, but I also feel like she s messing up.
14
SPEAKER_00
Like she shouldn t be doing that, but I like it.
14
SPEAKER_02
And of course you love it because- Oh, I m like, oh, there s a secret playful side to her.
14
SPEAKER_02
Well, no, just there s a secret playful side.
14
SPEAKER_02
She s so serious and sincere, but then there s this weird playful side that is intoxicating.
14
SPEAKER_00
She d be a perfect match for you because perfect in a bad way.
14
SPEAKER_02
We ll see when I start seeing her as a therapist.
14
SPEAKER_02
I bring her flowers every time I go to my appointment.
14
SPEAKER_00
No, if she comes in here and then she laughs and then you like it, I m gonna say, Orna, stop doing that.
14
SPEAKER_02
Stamp out of it, you re not being professional.
14
SPEAKER_02
And then she ll go, this isn t a session, I m on a show.
14
SPEAKER_00
Yes, it is.
14
SPEAKER_02
It is now.
14
SPEAKER_00
We brought you here for therapy.
14
SPEAKER_02
I love her though.
14
SPEAKER_02
And there s so many things I like about her.
14
SPEAKER_02
She has style, yet she s not made up.
14
SPEAKER_02
And her hair is so big and thick and messy and good looking.
14
SPEAKER_00
All these are very physical traits.
14
SPEAKER_02
No, well we already know how much we love her brain.
14
SPEAKER_02
But there s a confidence to this.
14
SPEAKER_00
I m curious if she s married.
14
SPEAKER_02
She s not wearing a ring.
14
SPEAKER_00
She has kids though.
14
SPEAKER_02
But she does.
14
SPEAKER_00
You see in season two, which you haven t seen yet, because in season two, they re in COVID.
14
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
14
SPEAKER_00
And so you see her life a little more.
14
SPEAKER_02
Oh, I can t wait.
14
SPEAKER_00
But I ve never seen a husband.
14
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, she doesn t need a husband.
14
SPEAKER_00
No.
14
SPEAKER_02
She needs lots of husbands.
14
SPEAKER_00
You know, when I watch it, I do sometimes think I could have done that.
14
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah.
14
SPEAKER_00
That could have been a job for me.
14
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
14
SPEAKER_00
But I wonder if people wouldn t trust me if I wasn t married.
14
SPEAKER_00
But I would hate them for that.
14
SPEAKER_02
Well, I mean, there s some validity to receiving parenting advice from someone who doesn t have kids.
14
SPEAKER_02
I know what you mean, I just think it s- But I agree with you that you don t need to be in a relationship to watch these two people talk and see the pattern they re in.
14
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
14
SPEAKER_02
You don t need to be.
14
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
14
SPEAKER_02
I agree.
14
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
14
SPEAKER_00
And in some ways, I think it can be helpful.
14
SPEAKER_00
Like in a part of season three, she s struggling, Orna is struggling, and she s talking to her therapy friends about it, and they re- One of them I don t like, I think he s out to get her.
14
SPEAKER_00
You don t like that man.
14
SPEAKER_00
No, he s right.
14
SPEAKER_00
He pushes her and says, why are you so quick to give up on them?
14
SPEAKER_00
Like, there s something about her that s getting triggered, probably from a past relationship.
14
SPEAKER_01
Past gas lighter.
14
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
14
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
14
SPEAKER_01
There s no credible sources that says she s single, but there s- There s some.
14
SPEAKER_01
There s un-credible.
14
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
14
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
14
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
14
SPEAKER_02
They struck again.
14
SPEAKER_00
I don t want to know.
14
SPEAKER_00
I like her mystery.
14
SPEAKER_02
I don t want to know because I m having so much fun with my fantasy about who she is.
14
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
14
SPEAKER_00
That s part of it.
14
SPEAKER_00
I don t want to know too much about my therapist.
14
SPEAKER_00
I just don t.
14
SPEAKER_02
I want to go back to her attractiveness.
14
SPEAKER_00
Oh, wow.
14
SPEAKER_02
But there s a real reason for it.
14
SPEAKER_02
On some level, you could say she s doing everything wrong.
14
SPEAKER_02
Her posture isn t of like a regal beauty.
14
SPEAKER_02
She doesn t do her hair.
14
SPEAKER_02
And what all of that combines into is like the most attractive person ever.
14
SPEAKER_00
I feel like you re trying to, in a very nice way, compliment me.
14
SPEAKER_00
Are you?
14
SPEAKER_02
What I m... In a weird way.
14
SPEAKER_02
Going back to our endless debate about conventional beauty and then just attractiveness.
14
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
14
SPEAKER_02
Yes, and so I m pointing out to you, it s like, she doesn t even comb her hair and she s so fucking attractive.
14
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I don t comb my hair.
14
SPEAKER_02
She s so attractive.
14
SPEAKER_02
I know.
14
SPEAKER_02
And she s not doing any of the stuff that s on a magazine.
14
SPEAKER_00
I know.
14
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
14
SPEAKER_00
I don t think you have to convince me of that because...
14
SPEAKER_00
I feel that way about everyone I m attracted, not about me, but everyone- I want you to feel that way about you.
14
SPEAKER_00
I know, but I understand the concept because I live the concept.
14
SPEAKER_00
Like everyone I find attractive is not their face.
14
SPEAKER_00
I mean, sometimes it is their face.
14
SPEAKER_02
No, and it is Orna s face, for sure.
14
SPEAKER_02
And it s her hair that s not combed in a discernible direction.
14
SPEAKER_00
You love messy hair.
14
SPEAKER_02
I just love the whole thing she s presenting.
14
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you love her essence.
14
SPEAKER_02
It s so authentic.
14
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it is.
14
SPEAKER_02
And authentic is fucking hot.
14
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it is.
14
SPEAKER_00
That s right, that s exactly right.
14
SPEAKER_02
Undeniably very hot.
14
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I think that s true.
14
SPEAKER_00
I guess going down the Orna road, when I was being Orna in my own head about me, I was just doing a lot of introspection.
14
SPEAKER_02
Just now or when you were watching Orna?
14
SPEAKER_00
This weekend.
14
SPEAKER_02
Oh, this weekend.
14
SPEAKER_00
After my therapy session, I was just doing a lot of introspection this weekend.
14
SPEAKER_02
And did you feel like it was productive?
14
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I do.
14
SPEAKER_02
What did you come to?
14
SPEAKER_00
Well, I have these instincts and stuff about other people in my life who I m fearful, like I have just so much fear.
14
SPEAKER_00
Can I say, maybe I should say?
14
SPEAKER_02
Sure.
14
SPEAKER_00
I had like a panic about you and Vegas.
14
SPEAKER_02
Right, okay.
14
SPEAKER_00
On Friday.
14
SPEAKER_02
Friday, okay.
14
SPEAKER_00
And I won t get in, I mean, there was like something that sparked it.
14
SPEAKER_00
Fairly benign, but I panicked and started doing the thing I do, which is like a cycle of thinking.
14
SPEAKER_00
I feel very accurate in my feelings when I m in them.
14
SPEAKER_00
And that s, I feel very certain.
14
SPEAKER_00
And that s what most of the preoccupation is about, is my certainty that something s wrong.
14
SPEAKER_02
Building the case.
14
SPEAKER_00
Or just like something s wrong and it has to be fixed right now and no one else can see it but me.
14
SPEAKER_00
And how do I do this?
14
SPEAKER_00
Because there are landmines everywhere and I don t know how to do it, but I know something s wrong.
14
SPEAKER_00
So, you know, that s what happens.
14
SPEAKER_02
Maybe you re sensing the live show I had done.
14
SPEAKER_00
Maybe.
14
SPEAKER_02
Something was wrong.
14
SPEAKER_00
And look, I ve been right before about not just you, other things too, where these senses get validated as right.
14
SPEAKER_00
And then that can be dangerous for me because then when I have- All the ideas.
14
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, then it s like, oh, it s always right.
14
SPEAKER_00
And so there was a panic and luckily I had therapy already scheduled for the next day.
14
SPEAKER_00
So I spent most of it talking about that.
14
SPEAKER_00
Cause I was like, I m gonna text, I wanted to text you.
14
SPEAKER_00
And say like, hey, is something going on?
14
SPEAKER_00
What is this?
14
SPEAKER_00
Answer for this basically.
14
SPEAKER_00
And I didn t do it, which I was happy about.
14
SPEAKER_00
That was new for me to not do it.
14
SPEAKER_02
To not act on the fear.
14
SPEAKER_00
And she said, well, what do you think doing it would have done?
14
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, well, then he would know I knew.
14
SPEAKER_00
And then he would, he was like, he would what?
14
SPEAKER_00
And I was like, well, then he would stop.
14
SPEAKER_00
Then he s busted.
14
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
14
SPEAKER_00
Then he would know.
14
SPEAKER_00
And then he d be more scared to do it because he would know that I am- Onto me.
14
SPEAKER_00
I know things.
14
SPEAKER_00
And she s like, that s not how it works.
14
SPEAKER_00
he ll find another way to do it, or he ll just know that you re looking and be more sneaky, or he ll...
15
SPEAKER_00
It s like, that s just not how it works.
15
SPEAKER_00
And I was like- It s not the math of the addiction.
15
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
15
SPEAKER_02
And it was like, well, what do you mean?
15
SPEAKER_00
This is the endless heartbreak of having a loved one with addiction.
15
SPEAKER_00
Even when you re the parent, you can t.
15
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
15
SPEAKER_00
It s, yeah.
15
SPEAKER_02
Like your love isn t enough.
15
SPEAKER_00
No, nor is the addict s love for anything else.
15
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, exactly.
15
SPEAKER_02
It s like, yeah, I can t save anyone.
15
SPEAKER_02
I can t save anyone.
15
SPEAKER_00
Right.
15
SPEAKER_02
And
15
SPEAKER_02
And she was like, well, what is the real fear?
15
SPEAKER_02
And I was like, well, this is how people die, where they go and no one s paying attention, and it s always me, and without me, he ll die.
15
SPEAKER_02
Right.
15
SPEAKER_02
And then when I said it, and I really, yeah, I said it out loud and I really realized like, oh, I m afraid he s gonna die all the time.
15
SPEAKER_02
So of course it s like this, it becomes- The stakes are as high as they can be.
15
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
15
SPEAKER_02
And she was like, well, he could die getting in a car.
15
SPEAKER_02
He could die doing anything.
15
SPEAKER_02
Anyone can die doing anything.
15
SPEAKER_02
And I was like, yeah, that s the part I can t live with.
15
SPEAKER_02
I don t like living in a world where that s true and I never have.
15
SPEAKER_02
And then that s when I started thinking about being so little.
15
SPEAKER_02
So little.
15
SPEAKER_02
I don t know why I had this.
15
SPEAKER_00
your dad wasn t in the coal mines where people were dying.
15
SPEAKER_02
No, and it s not like anyone died.
15
SPEAKER_00
Right, no one died.
15
SPEAKER_02
No one died unexpectedly in my life.
15
SPEAKER_00
You re having your first one with your grandpa.
15
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and that actually might be partially why, I had no exposure to it.
15
SPEAKER_00
Oh, that makes a ton of sense, like the same, I bring it up all the time, but the book on killing talks about our obsession with murder on TV, because we don t see it, where there s no grandparents dying in the house, we don t slaughter our food anymore.
15
SPEAKER_00
And then likewise, when we went to single bedroom houses, people got perverted because they weren t around sex.
15
SPEAKER_00
So yeah, the absence of it.
15
SPEAKER_00
Because I ve had quite a few folks die.
15
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
15
SPEAKER_02
Well, you ve had a lot of people in your life die.
15
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, quite a bit.
15
SPEAKER_02
That you at least even know.
15
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, like friends and family.
15
SPEAKER_02
I feel really anxious that we re even talking about it.
15
SPEAKER_00
Okay, find some wood.
15
SPEAKER_00
Chop, chop.
15
SPEAKER_02
Um, like I remember when I was at my grandparents  house over the summer, so I must have been like five, I would be so anxious my grandpa wouldn t come home from work.
15
SPEAKER_00
Right.
15
SPEAKER_02
And always when my dad would come home from work, like when I could hear the garage door open, it was always a relief.
15
SPEAKER_00
I m gonna hit you with something that s so woo-woo.
15
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
15
SPEAKER_00
But truly could be part of this.
15
SPEAKER_00
You could have inherited your mother s abandonment.
15
SPEAKER_02
I do think that.
15
SPEAKER_02
I think there might ve been some real stuff.
15
SPEAKER_00
Epigenome transfer.
15
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
15
SPEAKER_02
Mixed with, I think I must have from a very early age understood that they were targets, especially my dad and my grandpa.
15
SPEAKER_00
Well, I m going to add something as well.
15
SPEAKER_00
So that s likely it as well.
15
SPEAKER_00
But when your other.
15
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
15
SPEAKER_00
The only place you re not other is your family.
15
SPEAKER_00
It s everything.
15
SPEAKER_00
Without that, you are like other by yourself.
15
SPEAKER_00
So I think like, I just imagine if me and my family had been growing up in China, I d be extra dependent on them and reliant on them and fearful that without them, I m really alone in the world.
15
SPEAKER_02
And alone, but also the otherness is what might cause me to be alone, because- It s all swirled into this- Yeah, they might get- Targeted.
15
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, they re a target.
15
SPEAKER_02
So I m trying, even though this sounds kind of callous, I m trying to remember that even if people die,
15
SPEAKER_02
that I ll be okay.
15
SPEAKER_00
You ll be okay, you ll be okay.
15
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it s really, it s like impossible for me to believe, but I m trying.
15
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you know how they say Austin s a blueberry in the red soup?
15
Yeah.
15
SPEAKER_00
I like to think of the Padmints as a chocolate chip in a pancake.
15
SPEAKER_00
This just occurred to me.
15
SPEAKER_00
Just one chocolate chip in the pancake.
15
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, the tastiest part.
15
SPEAKER_00
Is what everyone wants.
15
SPEAKER_02
Anyway.
15
SPEAKER_00
Well, thanks for sharing that all with me.
15
SPEAKER_00
And I apologize that my past would make it a very plausible and realistic assumption.
15
SPEAKER_02
I don t need an apology.
15
SPEAKER_00
No, I m happy to apologize for the rest of my life about
15
SPEAKER_00
the PTSD I installed in you.
15
SPEAKER_00
Had you not been right, I mean, this was one of our little bit of our debates throughout the process.
15
SPEAKER_00
The only thing that s been debate where I ve been is just to point out you were wrong a lot too.
15
SPEAKER_00
You were definitely right and you were wrong a lot.
15
SPEAKER_00
That s the only part that I sometimes will push back on.
15
SPEAKER_00
Had I not given you any of the right ones, you might be better at silencing that voice and I certainly didn t do that.
15
SPEAKER_00
I definitely reinforced it and gave it legs.
15
SPEAKER_00
And I am sorry for that.
15
SPEAKER_00
I would not want to give you that.
15
SPEAKER_02
Well, but it s kind of, it s like all these couples and couples therapy, where when I was really connecting to the idea that, oh, I ve had this fear my whole life that people will die, then of course I m attracted to you.
15
SPEAKER_02
And it made you such a like pivotal part of my life in so many ways.
15
SPEAKER_02
Because you are,
15
SPEAKER_02
more likely, yeah, you re dangerous.
15
SPEAKER_02
I m trying to antagonize that part of me by putting myself in close proximity to you.
15
SPEAKER_00
Right, to a daredevil.
15
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
15
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
15
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s pretty funny actually.
15
SPEAKER_00
Therapists would have a field day with it.
15
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, like we re all doing that.
15
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, your biggest fear is you d lose someone prematurely, so why don t you get into business and build your life around someone who is regularly going over 200 miles an hour and has a drug history and fights strangers.
15
SPEAKER_00
It s pretty funny.
15
SPEAKER_02
It makes me feel like Sapolsky s not wrong.
15
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
15
SPEAKER_02
that there s reasons for all of this stuff, and it just goes back and back and back and back.
15
SPEAKER_02
Anywho.
15
SPEAKER_00
Anywho.
15
SPEAKER_02
Couple facts.
15
SPEAKER_00
All right, hit me with a couple facts.
15
SPEAKER_02
Okay, did Spielberg direct Jaws at age 23?
15
SPEAKER_00
I m so glad you looked this up, because I should have.
15
SPEAKER_02
It was October 1974, and Steven Spielberg was 27 years old.
15
SPEAKER_02
He had stopped at a hotel in Boston on his way back from Martha s Vineyard, where he had just finished shooting his second Hollywood feature film, Jaws.
15
SPEAKER_00
I was 27.
15
SPEAKER_02
Oh, and he had a immobilizing anxiety attack.
15
SPEAKER_00
Oh.
15
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
15
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
15
SPEAKER_02
Okay, Dan Savage is Santorum.
15
SPEAKER_00
Oh, great.
15
SPEAKER_00
Let me quickly call Greg Morrison and have him listen to it.
15
SPEAKER_01
I know a lot of it.
15
SPEAKER_02
Do you wanna say it?
15
SPEAKER_01
What, the frothy mixture of...
15
SPEAKER_01
Cum and semen.
15
SPEAKER_01
Those are the same thing.
15
SPEAKER_01
The frothy mixture of cum and blood?
15
SPEAKER_01
Fecal matter, cum and fecal matter.
15
SPEAKER_02
Well, very close.
15
SPEAKER_02
The frothy mixture, you got that phrase right.
15
SPEAKER_02
The frothy mixture of lube and fecal matter.
15
SPEAKER_02
That is sometimes the byproduct of anal sex.
15
SPEAKER_01
I use that a lot in the hat game as like a clue that you write down.
15
SPEAKER_02
Wait, what s the hat game?
15
SPEAKER_01
It s like Pictionary charades and catchphrase, like all crammed together.
15
SPEAKER_01
And people write Santorum.
15
SPEAKER_01
I ll write the description of Santorum.
15
SPEAKER_01
And then they have to guess.
15
SPEAKER_01
And then they have to act it out.
15
SPEAKER_01
Oh my God, Rob.
15
SPEAKER_01
Describe it and get people to say it.
15
SPEAKER_00
Rob s a rascal.
15
SPEAKER_00
You know what s funny is Jethro on this trip discovered that Rob was a rascal.
15
SPEAKER_00
In fact, when we were driving to work this morning, Rob, he goes,
15
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, Rob s a real lad, isn t he?
15
SPEAKER_00
He s a real lad.
15
SPEAKER_00
That s so funny.
15
SPEAKER_02
In 2023, the life expectancy of the female is 81.6.
15
81.6.
15
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
15
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
15
SPEAKER_02
And then.
15
SPEAKER_00
For dudes, 68.
15
SPEAKER_02
See, I m getting contradictory information.
15
SPEAKER_02
Okay.
15
SPEAKER_02
This says, this is at statnews.com.
15
SPEAKER_02
Life expectancy for men is now 73.2 compared with women s 79.1.
15
SPEAKER_02
It says this 5.9 year gap is the widest gap between the two genders since 1996.
15
SPEAKER_00
So it s not looking good for men.
15
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
15
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
15
SPEAKER_02
It says life expectancy in the U.S.
15
SPEAKER_02
dropped for the second year.
15
SPEAKER_02
That s from the CDC.
16
SPEAKER_00
Very trusted.
16
SPEAKER_01
Yes, the most trusted.
16
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and men they live longer if they have daughters though.
16
SPEAKER_01
Ashok s gonna live 1.7 years longer because he had you.
16
SPEAKER_00
Marry and married.
16
SPEAKER_00
We looked at that before, remember?
16
SPEAKER_00
Okay 20 best-selling memoirs of all time.
16
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
16
SPEAKER_00
Number one.
16
SPEAKER_00
You were right.
16
SPEAKER_00
Green lights.
16
SPEAKER_01
Number one of all time.
16
SPEAKER_01
Good for him.
16
SPEAKER_00
Estimated 5 million copies sold.
16
SPEAKER_00
Whoa.
16
SPEAKER_00
Number two, Matthew Perry s.
16
SPEAKER_01
Really?
16
SPEAKER_01
Oh wow.
16
SPEAKER_00
Estimated 2 million.
16
SPEAKER_00
Three is Tuesdays with Maury.
16
SPEAKER_00
That was a big one.
16
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
16
SPEAKER_00
You remember that one?
16
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely.
16
SPEAKER_01
That s Mitch Albom.
16
SPEAKER_01
Mitch Albom is a Detroit guy, as we ve talked about.
16
SPEAKER_01
And he s kind of what got me into writing, because my seventh grade lit teacher, Larry LeClaire, who encouraged me to write short stories, which led to The Yellow Limo, which you ve read.
16
SPEAKER_01
The way he made it fun for us is we read Mitch Albom s columns every day in class.
16
SPEAKER_00
Oh, no way!
16
SPEAKER_01
He was obsessed with Mitch Albom.
16
SPEAKER_01
And that did seem like fun writing.
16
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
16
SPEAKER_01
Oh, that is fun.
16
SPEAKER_01
I like how this, it s not just books from 50 years ago.
16
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
16
SPEAKER_01
It s this.
16
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
16
SPEAKER_00
This is fun.
16
SPEAKER_00
That s great.
16
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
16
SPEAKER_00
Number four is Pachinko by Minji Lee.
16
SPEAKER_00
Oh, five is educated.
16
SPEAKER_00
I ve heard that s really good.
16
SPEAKER_01
Who wrote that?
16
SPEAKER_00
Tara Westover, it s a Mormon.
16
SPEAKER_00
It s supposed to be so good.
16
SPEAKER_01
What s it called?
16
SPEAKER_00
Educated.
16
SPEAKER_01
Educated.
16
SPEAKER_00
Uh-oh, it s also number six.
16
SPEAKER_01
Okay, cool.
16
SPEAKER_01
Paperback and hard copy.
16
SPEAKER_00
Maybe.
16
SPEAKER_00
Seven, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings, Maya Angelou.
16
SPEAKER_00
Eight, Knight.
16
SPEAKER_01
That would be a Jeopardy clue, what you just did.
16
SPEAKER_00
What did I do?
16
SPEAKER_01
You read the title.
16
SPEAKER_00
Oh, yeah.
16
SPEAKER_01
And people would know that.
16
SPEAKER_00
Who is Maya Angelou?
16
SPEAKER_00
Okay, Eight, Night by Elie Wiesel.
16
SPEAKER_00
Although it s weird, it s like estimated 500,000 copies sold for Night.
16
SPEAKER_00
And that cannot be, like, I think we had to read it for school.
16
SPEAKER_01
Seems light to be on a top 10 list.
16
SPEAKER_00
Whoa, guess what number nine is?
16
SPEAKER_01
I would imagine either,
16
SPEAKER_01
Either Minka or my mother, I m Glad My Mom s Dead.
16
SPEAKER_00
Oh, Jeannette.
16
SPEAKER_01
Jeannette McCurdy.
16
SPEAKER_00
That should be, and it s not Minka, it s Trevor Noah.
16
SPEAKER_01
Oh, Born a Crime.
16
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
16
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, that makes sense.
16
SPEAKER_01
I would have thought I m Glad My Mother s Dead would be up at the top of that.
16
SPEAKER_00
Me too.
16
SPEAKER_01
Because it was huge.
16
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, but it s not old enough yet.
16
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
16
SPEAKER_00
Okay, number 10, The Love Songs of W.E.B.
16
SPEAKER_00
Dubois.
16
SPEAKER_00
I ll go quickly.
16
SPEAKER_00
11 shoe dog, Phil Knight.
16
SPEAKER_01
Oh.
16
SPEAKER_01
He just died.
16
SPEAKER_00
Phil Knight just died?
16
SPEAKER_01
Oh no, that s the Nike.
16
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
16
SPEAKER_01
I m thinking of Knight, the Indiana Hoosiers coach.
16
SPEAKER_01
Bobby Knight.
16
SPEAKER_01
Bobby Knight just died recently.
16
SPEAKER_01
Oh, I m glad we re on this.
16
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
16
SPEAKER_01
What a dummy I am.
16
SPEAKER_00
What?
16
SPEAKER_01
Guru died 10 years ago.
16
SPEAKER_00
Oh.
16
SPEAKER_01
I don t know why Snoop posted a post smoking one for Guru, but I definitely interpreted that as he had just died, and many people were kind and soft about pointing out that we lost him 10 years ago, which really exposes how little I m following these.
16
SPEAKER_00
It must have been the date, the anniversary or something.
16
SPEAKER_01
It must have been, but yeah, very confusing.
16
SPEAKER_01
I wonder if anyone else thought that.
16
SPEAKER_01
Because you see a post from Snoop smoking a blunt and says, this one s for Guru, rest in peace.
16
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you d think.
16
SPEAKER_01
He died April 19th, 2010.
16
SPEAKER_01
2010, so 13 years ago.
16
SPEAKER_00
Okay, 12, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, 13, Will Smith, 14, Bossy Pants, Tina Fey, love that book.
16
SPEAKER_00
This will be the last one I do.
16
SPEAKER_00
15, Lady in Waiting by Anne Glenn Connor.
16
SPEAKER_01
Great list.
16
SPEAKER_00
Okay.
16
SPEAKER_01
Esteemed.
16
SPEAKER_00
Very esteemed.
16
SPEAKER_00
Highly esteemed.
16
SPEAKER_01
I do think they re missing a few, but that s okay.
16
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
16
SPEAKER_01
It s a great list.
16
SPEAKER_01
And congratulations if you re on it.
16
SPEAKER_01
Little Mr. Texas, number one.
16
SPEAKER_00
Last thing, are chinchillas rodents?
16
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
16
SPEAKER_01
Well.
16
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, they are.
16
SPEAKER_01
They re rodents.
16
SPEAKER_00
Although when I did pull it up to see, I did like this picture.
16
SPEAKER_01
Oh yeah, they re so cute.
16
SPEAKER_01
And have you ever held one?
16
SPEAKER_00
No, I don t touch rodents.
16
SPEAKER_01
You have to be so gentle because they don t have a rib cage.
16
SPEAKER_01
You have to be very gentle with them.
16
SPEAKER_01
But they re so soft, and they re really funny and cute.
16
SPEAKER_00
That s like those squishy toys that fall out of your hand.
16
SPEAKER_01
Water weenies.
16
SPEAKER_00
Water weenies, yeah.
16
SPEAKER_01
Best Christmas gift of 83.
16
SPEAKER_00
That s what they are then, they just fall out of your hand.
16
SPEAKER_01
They re water weenies, yeah.
16
SPEAKER_01
Explode.
16
SPEAKER_00
Eww.
16
SPEAKER_00
Gross.
16
SPEAKER_01
You go to lift it up by the like middle like you would pick up a baby and then just all of its organs come out of its mouth As you re like picking it up.
16
SPEAKER_01
You re just you re just ringing like a tube of toothpaste It s like fragile humans shouldn t try to have sex with me This is a fragile being that s not me I
16
SPEAKER_01
Well, it s part of the, you know.
16
SPEAKER_00
Appeal?
16
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
16
SPEAKER_00
I m not fragile.
16
SPEAKER_01
No.
16
SPEAKER_01
Not at all.
16
SPEAKER_01
No high flyer in cheerleading is fragile.
16
SPEAKER_00
Exactly.
16
SPEAKER_00
Ugh.
16
SPEAKER_00
Anyway, well, some of these are cute.
16
SPEAKER_00
This one, this fat one s really cute.
16
SPEAKER_01
They re cute.
16
SPEAKER_00
But.
16
SPEAKER_01
And they re sexy.
16
SPEAKER_00
They are not sexy.
16
SPEAKER_00
Happy Thanksgiving to all.
16
SPEAKER_01
Happy Thanksgiving.
16
SPEAKER_01
I love everybody here.
16
SPEAKER_00
Me too.
16
SPEAKER_01
And good luck with this bird you re cooking.
16
SPEAKER_00
Oh, God.
16
SPEAKER_00
I know.
16
SPEAKER_00
I m feeling stressed.
16
SPEAKER_00
I have to be home in 12 minutes.
16
SPEAKER_01
You ve got to get home and shove that thing in the oven.
16
SPEAKER_00
I m going to let everyone know how it goes.
16
SPEAKER_00
All right.
16
SPEAKER_00
I love you.
16
SPEAKER_00
I love you.