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Coming up next on Passion Struck.
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You as an individual, as a leader, have a choice.
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Are you going to adapt to the environment that we re a part of, where we talk about employee experience and putting people first and well-being?
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Are you going to adapt to lead in that kind of a world?
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Or are you going to stick to the old way of leading and hope that nobody notices?
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And my hope is that even just for your career success,
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For your growth, for your development, you will adapt.
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That s the ROI for you.
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But then there s also the ROI from a business perspective.
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Welcome to Passion Struck.
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Hi, I m your host, Jon R. Miles.
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And on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world s most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you.
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Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself.
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If you re new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays.
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We have long form interviews the rest of the week with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes.
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Now let s go out there and become passion struck.
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Hello everyone, and welcome back to episode 351 of Passion Struck.
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Ranked by Apple is one of the top 10 most popular health podcasts and the number one alternative health podcast.
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And thank you to all of you who come back to the show weekly to listen and learn how to live better, be better, and impact the world.
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I also wanted to tell you that my brand new book, Passion Struck, is available for pre-order.
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This is an in-depth exploration of 12 principles that you can use to create a more intentional life.
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Links will be in the show notes.
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If you re new to the show, thank you so much for being here.
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Or you simply want to introduce this to a friend or a family member, we now have episode starter packs.
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And these are collections of our fans  favorite episodes that we organize into convenient topics that give any new listener a great way to get acclimated to everything we do here on the show.
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Either go to Spotify or passionstruck.com slash starter packs to get started.
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And in case you missed it, last week I had two great interviews.
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The first was with Dr. Niha Sanguin.
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She is the author of the new book, Powered by Me, where she uncovers the profound effects
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unhealed trauma on burnout and empowers individuals to discover what truly energizes them and provides greater purpose in life.
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The second was with Arthur Smith, a trailblazer in nonfiction television.
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He s renowned for creating iconic shows like Hell s Kitchen and American Ninja Warrior, earning accolades like Producer of the Year and Induction into the Roll Screen Awards Hall of Fame.
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we explore his memoir titled Reach, which offers a thrilling peek behind the scenes of his extraordinary career journey.
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Earlier in the week, I also welcomed my friend and esteemed leadership thought leader, Jacob Morgan.
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Our conversation was so enlightening that we ve decided to split it into two parts.
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In part one, our engaging conversation spanned various topics, including
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transformative power of a single cup of coffee in Jacob s career, values he learned as an immigrant child, the importance of personal branding, and the evolving dynamics of employer-employee relationships.
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We also explored the need for reskilling and upskilling in a tech-driven world and emphasized the significance of employee well-being in the workplace.
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I also wanted to say thank you for your ratings and reviews.
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If you loved today s episode or any of the others that I mentioned, we would so appreciate you giving it a five star review and sharing it with your friends and families.
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In part two of my conversation with Jacob Morgan, we do a deep dive into his upcoming book, Leading with Vulnerability, which launches on October 3rd.
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It isn t just another leadership book.
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It s an invitation to a paradigm-shifting adventure that will forever alter the way you perceive leadership.
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It all started with a simple query.
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Is vulnerability the same for leaders as it is for everyone else?
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Jacobs  research reveals that it s not.
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Some leaders excel at it.
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while others struggle.
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Through candid stories and insights from 100 plus CEO interviews and a survey of 14,000 employees, Jacob deciphers what sets vulnerable leaders apart.
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We ll explore the key attributes of these leaders, the challenges they face, and the impact of leading with vulnerability.
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Jacob Morgan, our guide on this transformative journey, is an international best-selling author, keynote speaker, and professionally trained futurist.
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His work has been endorsed by some of the world s most prominent CEOs, and he s on a mission to create great leaders, engaged employees, and future-ready organizations.
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So join us as we uncover the power of vulnerability in leadership.
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This isn t just a podcast, it s an invitation to transform your perspective on leadership.
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Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life.
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Now, let that journey begin.
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I want to welcome you back to part two of my interview with Jacob Morgan, where we do a deep dive into his new book, Leading with Vulnerability, which comes out on October 3rd.
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Jacob s book starts out by asking a simple question.
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Is vulnerability the same for leaders as it is for everyone else?
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The answer, as Jacob discovered, is a resounding no.
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Let s pick back up in this episode where I ask Jacob how intentionality fits into leading with vulnerability.
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Jacob, I did want to ask you, since this podcast is really about intentionality, how it powers our actions and fits into your book, Leading with Vulnerability.
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Well, intention is really doing things with purpose.
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So one of the frameworks that I have in the book is called the vulnerability wheel.
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And I won t go through all five of the elements unless you want me to, but it s really around how do you know if you should be vulnerable or be leading with vulnerability at work, right?
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What criteria?
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Do you just go up to people and start talking?
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Is there some kind of a shortcut or a checklist that you can use?
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And at the center of this vulnerability wheel, which is a series of concentric circles, is intention.
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And that is understanding why it is that you want to do or share whatever it is that you want to do or share.
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For example, if we re talking and in the back of my mind, I m thinking, well, I should tell John about my family, or I should tell John about this time that I got beat up in college or whatever it is, right?
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The first thing that you should be asking is what s the purpose of me telling this to John?
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Is it just because I want to get something off my chest and treat this like a therapy session?
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Am I trying to create more connection and trust with John?
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Am I trying to create a culture where John feels like he can come to me with things?
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Am I trying to create a culture of innovation and growth?
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What is the purpose of me saying or doing whatever it is that I m going to say or do?
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So intentionality is crucial because if you don t have that, then what s the purpose, right?
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It just becomes like a group therapy session inside of your organization, which I would argue is pretty much always not the right approach that you should be taking.
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Well, thank you for sharing that because I think you re absolutely right.
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And I don t know if it might be possible, but that graph could be a great thing to put in the show notes.
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It would be fantastic.
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So there was one important element to vulnerability and leadership that I wanted to add.
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So imagine that you re looking at this in kind of a quadrant, right?
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You have vulnerability on one axis, you have leadership on the other axis.
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And some people might be saying, well, why do I need both of these things?
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So imagine that I work for you, John, and somebody comes to me and they say, what do you think of John as a leader?
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And let s say you re really good at the leadership piece.
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You re really good at the competence piece.
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And somebody comes to me and they say, what do you think of John as a leader?
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My response is probably going to be something along the lines of, John is amazing at his job.
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He s able to close deals.
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He brings an amazing podcast guest.
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He s just on top of it.
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But I don t feel that sense of connection with John.
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I don t feel motivated and engaged and inspired by John, but he s really good at his job.
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Now let s take the same scenario.
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And now you score or you index very high in vulnerability, very high on the connection piece.
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And somebody comes to me and they say, what do you think of John as a leader?
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And I ll say, oh my goodness, John is just an awesome human being.
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We have this great connection.
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We have lots to talk about.
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There s this great chemistry.
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He s just a really awesome person.
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But I m not sure if John is the right leader for the team.
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He hasn t demonstrated the competence.
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He hasn t demonstrated that he s able to grow the business, to lead the team.
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And so you can see why you need both of those things in play.
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You want to demonstrate that you re either good at your job or working on being good at your job, closing that gap.
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And you also want to be able to create that connection with the people that you work with.
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But there s a little bit of a catch here.
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And so there is a concept in psychology called the Pratt-Fall Effect.
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It was developed by Elliot Aronson.
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He was a psychology professor at the University of California, Santa Cruz, which is where I went to school.
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And the Pratt-Fall Effect basically states that if you are good at your job, you ve demonstrated high levels of competence.
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and now you re vulnerable, you get a little bump.
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People view you as being even more competent.
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You re viewed as being even more likable.
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Because again, you ve demonstrated you re good at your job, now you re demonstrating that you re human.
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And people look at you and they say, wow, Jacob s really good at his job, and he s a good human being?
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Oh my goodness.
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And you get an even higher, more positive perception of Jacob.
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But the flip side of that is also true.
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Let s say you re mediocre.
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You re not good at your job, and now you re vulnerable.
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What ends up happening is that vulnerability will reinforce your mediocrity.
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So if I m just like a C player inside my company and I m vulnerable, what s going to happen is everybody around me is going to say,
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Yeah, that makes sense.
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I get why Jacob s a C player.
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And so the whole point of all of this is to show that there is no substitute for being good at your job.
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And now again, this doesn t mean that you can t ask for help.
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But it means that you need to demonstrate that you yourself are trying to take that accountability, the intention to get better, to learn and grow.
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One CEO that I interviewed, Steve Bild from Smile Brands, gave me a great analogy.
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And he said that if you re in sixth grade math,
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and you keep showing up to 6th grade asking about 4th grade math, eventually people are going to look at you and they re going to say, hey Jacob, this is 6th grade, you keep asking about 4th grade math, maybe you should go back down to 4th grade.
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However, let s say I m in sixth grade math.
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I m asking about fourth grade math, but now all of a sudden, I say that I have a tutor after school.
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Now all of a sudden, I m staying later to get help from the teacher.
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Now instead of doing 10 homework problems a night, I m turning in 20.
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I m going to have a very different perception, right?
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Not only will I eventually catch up, but people are going to look at me and they re going to say, okay, we get it.
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Like Jacob is a little bit behind, but he s getting there and he will get there.
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So leadership plus vulnerability, not just vulnerability is the most important message.
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Great.
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Well, thank you for sharing that, Jacob.
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And I actually wanted to take this down a different rabbit hole, and that is I wanted to discuss the commonalities that you and I learned have with each other.
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And as I was reading the preface for your book, I, too, had great-grandparents who immigrated from areas engulfed in World War II, similar to your parents.
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My fiancee, whose family were Russian Jews, also fled and ended up in the United States.
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And the way you describe your father reminds me of my own father.
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Whom I have never seen cry.
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I actually saw him.
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He was drilling into the wall when I was a young kid and somehow it slipped and he went right through his hand and nothing.
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He just grabs it.
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He s a Marine Corps force recon guy by background.
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He says, tell your mom I went to the emergency room and I ll be back in a little bit.
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He and my grandparents ingrained me in this belief, similar to you, that physical and mental fitness were our number one priorities.
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Don t let your emotions show to anyone.
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Don t be vulnerable.
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Always be strong.
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Don t show any weakness.
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And I remember then, and I grew up in a very Catholic household.
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And so I went to parochial school, which kind of only doubled down on it.
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And then I went to the Naval Academy, which kind of only doubled down on it.
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So I remember the early days of my career being in the military, and then when I went to Arthur Anderson and was a consultant, vulnerability was akin to a four-letter word that you just didn t say.
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Oh, yeah.
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And I know you and I have similar backgrounds here, so can you share a little bit more about your personal story?
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Specifically, what happens to us, because it happened to me, when we try to stuff down our emotions and feelings for too long?
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It sounds like our parents would have been best friends.
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Yeah, it definitely sounds exactly like my dad.
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And getting back to what I alluded to earlier, so my parents came from the former USR, the Republic of Georgia.
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And it s interesting because my mom always tried to model emotional vulnerability and openness.
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But as a young boy, I grew up watching my dad.
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And my dad was the exact opposite.
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Right.
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Even to this day, there s not a lot that I know about my dad because he doesn t, I know some basics obviously, but he doesn t like talking about his past.
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He doesn t like talking about his emotions.
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He doesn t like talking about his feelings.
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And every time at dinner, I have to like cry out for an entire hour, like one little story from him.
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Right.
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For example, even a couple of nights ago, we were having dinner and I knew that when he came to the United States, he lived in low income housing in Philadelphia.
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And then just randomly the other day, he s like, Oh yeah, by the way, I lived in the basement.
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And I said, dad, did you even have a window where you lived?
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And he s like, yeah, I had a window, but it looked up.
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So he was literally living underground in low-income housing in Philadelphia.
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And here I was this whole time thinking, oh, he probably just had a normal apartment.
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So it s little stuff like this that he just, he won t share.
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Even though I ask him and he ll say, why do you want to know?
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It s my problem.
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I don t need to talk about it.
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Why do I want to depress you about it?
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The point is everything now is fine.
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Even to this day, when I go to my dad s house, I should say my parents  house, because they re still together.
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Whenever I go there, the first thing he always asks me is, hey, Jacob, how many push-ups can you do?
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I come out into the backyard.
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Let me see how many dips you can do.
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Let me see how many sit-ups you can do.
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And that s literally, and I took a picture of him the other day, because people didn t believe me.
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And he s literally, he takes off his shirt, he goes on his dip bar, and he s like, count how many dips I can do.
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And I m like, oh, my dad, come on.
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So that s how I grew up.
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None of this vulnerability stuff is accepted, or at least that s how I grew up emulating and watching my dad.
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And this is pretty much how I lived my entire adult working life.
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I didn t believe in vulnerability.
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I thought it was dumb.
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I thought it was stupid.
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I thought it was something only for weak people and that I had no place in my life.
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And then a couple of years ago, I was standing in my bathroom.
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This was around seven in the morning.
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And I m standing there brushing my teeth, and all of a sudden, I start to feel really weird.
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My heart starts beating out of my chest.
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It s 130, 140 beats per minute, which is a pretty good-sized workout.
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My vision gets blurry.
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I am overcome with this feeling of panic and dread.
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And the immediate thought that pops into my mind is, I m going to have a heart attack and die right here on the bathroom floor.
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So I scream for my wife, Blake, she runs over to me and she tells me to lay down on the bed.
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And as soon as I lay down on the bed, my body starts convulsing and twitching.
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If you ve ever had the flu, you get shakes.
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So my body was just shaking.
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And this was in the middle of the pandemic.
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It was during the holidays.
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So I could not get an appointment to see a doctor.
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My wife drove me to urgent care.
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They were filled with COVID patients and they just looked at me and they re like, sir, are you going to die?
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I m like, I don t know.
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I m like keeled over on the reception desk.
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And they just look at me like, we got COVID patients that are more serious.
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So I m sitting there freaking out.
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I can t see a doctor.
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This is going on for a couple of days.
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Finally, I get in to go see a doctor.
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And they do a scan.
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They do an EKG scan.
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They look at me and they re like, yeah, you re totally fine.
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You re healthy.
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Your heart is fantastic.
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And I m really into fitness and eating healthy.
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So they tell me everything s fine and you re great.
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And then the doctor looks at me and she s like, well, you might want to go see a different kind of a doctor, pointing to her head as if I should go see a therapist.
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And I m sitting there thinking, oh, you got to be kidding me.
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This is how I m going to go down is talking to a therapist.
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What a joke.
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Of course, I go, I see a therapist, we do a couple of sessions together.
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And then it became very clear what was causing these panic attacks.
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And what was causing these panic attacks was the fact that I had just signed a contract to write a book about vulnerability, even though I did not believe in vulnerability.
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And my brain and my body and soul and heart were just, what did you just do?
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What did you just sign us up for?
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Like, you don t believe in any of this stuff.
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You re not vulnerable.
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And now you re going to spend the next two years writing about vulnerability?
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Are you out of your mind?
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And so my body taught me what it thought of my decision to write this book.
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That s a good reason for why people should grab it.
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I literally had a panic attack writing this freaking thing.
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And thankfully, I haven t had them since, but it was a very important and pivotal lesson for me.
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And it s funny because as I was interviewing CEOs for the book, a couple of them have also shared that they have had panic attacks.
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I asked members of my team, and we have around 10 people, and I said, have any of you ever had panic attacks?
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And four of them said that they have.
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So this is actually, I think, a far more common occurrence than we think, but we just don t talk about it.
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So I m happy to talk about it because I think it was a very life-changing moment for me.
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Well, thank you for sharing that.
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And I m going to share something as well, because I think that s why the listeners come on these programs is to hear us talk about our own stories and that we are ourselves have issues just like everyone else does.
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And I remember in my career, I was one of those people who was tunnel focused on greatness, success, whatever you want to call those extrinsic motivators that many of us focus on.
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And I was a senior executive at Lowe s.
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They did the four by four quadrants, and I was in the right-hand quadrant on the path to the C-level.
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And when they were evaluating people to go to that level, they brought in a group of people from Korn Ferry, who I m sure many of the listeners
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know who the search firm is, but they have a team within them that are organizational psychologists.
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And so we went through this whole battery of tests and interviews and everything else.
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And I was meeting with the organizational psychologist.
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Her name was Bridgette.
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And I remember in it, she s, you have had a meteor cries.
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You ve done a lot of great things.
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You re smart.
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You re blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
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And this is going right back to Marshall Goldsmith.
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what got you here is not going to get you to where you want to be.
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And I remember her telling me that and I was so pissed for a pretty long time until I realized that she was actually right.
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And I had a big
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gaping hole.
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And that was, as I talked about the way I had been brought up, I wasn t vulnerable.
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I wasn t as empathetic as I needed to be.
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And it was a huge weakness for, as I got more senior, the important things for when you re trying to influence people in politics and be a better leader.
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So I ve had to shift my approach from that a lot.
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And over the years, a ton has changed.
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And now vulnerability is viewed as this crucial skill for people leading through change, you outlined in the book, creating trust and unlocking the potential of others.
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And I think it s so interesting how these things come about.
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And one of the stories that you shared in the book was that of CFO of Waste Management, I believe he s the CEO now, and it was a specific event when he was trying to negotiate the sale of the business to private equity.
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SPEAKER_01
Can you share what happened and how it was actually vulnerability in action for someone who, honestly, I didn t take it that they had a lot of vulnerability up until that moment?
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s an interesting story.
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So this is Jim Fish, who s the CEO of Waste Management.
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I think they have around 50,000 employees.
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And so he s one of the 100 CEOs that I interviewed and he was sharing this story with me.
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So his mom was sick and this was in Austin, I believe.
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And he had to go to New York to negotiate a big private equity deal with some of the world s toughest lawyers and sharks and people who were basically there to rip his head off.
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And so he knew his mom was sick and he s like, Oh mom, I want to stay with you.
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And she s like, don t worry about it.
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I m fine.
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Go do what you need to do.
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I ll be here when I get back.
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So he goes over to New York, he s in the middle of kind of this negotiating deal, and then he gets a call.
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And I believe he got the call from his sister and she called once, she called twice, she called a couple of times.
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And finally, Jim, excuse me, I have to step out.
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And he goes to step outside, he picks up the phone and his sister basically tells him, mom passed away.
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And so Jim takes a couple of minutes there and he s just devastated, right?
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He s distraught.
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He s just trying to pull himself together.
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And he goes back into the negotiating room and he s visibly upset.
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You could tell that something bad happened.
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Other people look at him and they talk about what happened.
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Should we push the negotiating for later?
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And he s like, Oh, it s okay.
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Let s get through it.
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But what ended up happening is for the next like 10, 20 minutes, everybody in the room stopped talking about negotiating.
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And they started talking about their families, their moms, their dads, the impact that they had, the role that they had.
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And everybody gave their condolences to Jim and really supported him and made him feel good.
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And so the deal was done.
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What I talked to Jim about is what happened in this situation.
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He said, well, the fact that I was open and sharing and the fact that I received... So a lot of people don t understand this or they forget this, but being able to receive somebody s sympathy or even a compliment or something like that is an act of vulnerability.
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So if somebody says to you, Hey, I m really sorry that it happened to you.
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Like I know how you feel.
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Or if somebody even praises you, being able to genuinely allow that to hit you is a sign of vulnerability because you have to show that emotion, how much it means to you, how much you appreciate it or how much something hurts you.
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And what was interesting is after this negotiating deal was done.
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So a few things, Jim said that first of all, this.
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moment of vulnerability allowed them to get through the negotiating process much easier.
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They didn t focus as much on certain sticking points because they realized that really what matters most in life is family and friends and community.
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And this deal, although it was important, it shifted their mental perspective and the lens at which they came at this from.
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And then after the deal was done, Jim gets a call from the principal at the private equity firm, one of the most senior people who were there.
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He said the fact that Jim allowed others to give their empathy and their sympathy and that he was accepting of that and embrace that created a very high level of trust.
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And because of that high level of trust, it s what allowed them to come to the table together to make the deal even happen.
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And so it s a very interesting story of how vulnerability can be a powerful, I don t want to call it a tool, but a powerful attribute, a powerful
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quality that can create that trust.
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Because again, keep in mind, he s negotiating with the toughest lawyers in private equity, the people who are there to just rip his head off and like chew his bones.
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And because of this moment of vulnerability, it shifted and changed the perspective in the room.
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And so I thought that was a very interesting story.
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One of the many interesting stories that a CEO shared with me.
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SPEAKER_01
Well, I want to talk about another one that you bring up, and this is in Chapter 7, which is titled Thick Skin But Not Armor.
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SPEAKER_01
And I think there is an assumption that armoring up means not showing emotion.
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Can you discuss this through the story of Penny Pennington, the managing partner of Edward Jones Investments, and why it s not entirely true?
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SPEAKER_00
Yes.
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And you re really testing me here with all the quotes in the stories here, huh?
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So Penny Pennington, she s a fantastic CEO.
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Their title is managing partner, Edward Jones, financial firm.
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I think they also have like 50 or 60,000 employees.
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It s a huge company.
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So a lot of people, to your point, think that armoring up means not showing emotion, right?
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We talk about this a lot, but armoring up doesn t just mean not showing emotion.
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It also means just.
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avoiding the situations to begin with, right?
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Gaslighting people, shutting them down, not wanting to have the conversations, not wanting to even step in the room, not acknowledging anything.
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That s also a sign of armoring up.
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So it s not just you re having the conversations and you re just stoic there, but you just avoid everything altogether.
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and they can either, again, avoid the difficult conversations, avoid the people, they use power or their authority to push things by, and it s not a very healthy approach.
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Thick skin, on the other hand, means that you actually go to have the conversations.
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You participate in these conversations, but it also means that you don t necessarily take it personally.
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You can be objective.
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You can still show up and have these conversations, but you do so with an open mind, with an open heart, with an open perspective.
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And that s really what Thick Skin is about.
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And the analogy that I use in the book is with football.
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So bad leaders never take any of the hits because they never want to show up on the field to begin with.
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But the great leaders who have thick skin, they show up on the field.
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They take the hits.
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They re comfortable taking the hits.
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That s what having thick skin is about.
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And so when we talk about Penny Pennington, she gave me this quote, and I can actually read the quote because I have it here in front of me.
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She said, I have at different points in my life felt that armoring up and putting up a facade of strength and invulnerability and knowing all the answers was the right thing to do.
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But upon reflection and living that way, what I found was that I wasn t happy.
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It takes a lot of energy to armor up.
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You also don t release yourself fully to creativity and to joy and to being a part of a learning journey.
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And as a leader, when you armor up, you also send a signal to everyone around you that they ought to armor up too.
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And I love that story because in that quote, and she s featured several times in the book, because I acknowledge that there s never been a harder time to be a leader.
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If you look at just what s going on in the world, whether you look at cancel culture, whether you look at being scared to speak up, whether you look at the geopolitical climate, whether you look at the economy, like it s hard.
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It s really hard now to be a leader.
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And so we re constantly being scrutinized.
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Our approaches, our leadership styles are constantly being picked apart, being analyzed, being critiqued.
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And we re also being expected to take a stance on various issues, which can also make it very hard for us to be a leader.
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And I acknowledge that it s difficult to be a leader, but showing up and having that thick skin means that you re willing to participate in those tough conversations.
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You can handle the feedback, you can handle the criticism.
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And at the end of the day, you focus on what can be learned.
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You focus on what can be learned, how you can grow together, how you can build a team.
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I think that s really the best approach that we should be taking inside of our organizations.
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So don t avoid the conversations altogether.
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Show up to the conversations, be okay taking the hits.
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I think that s an important part of being a leader.
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Obviously, I don t want to go through the whole book with you, but there are some things- We can go through the whole thing.
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That I want listeners to understand would be valuable for them in the book.
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One of the things Jacob breaks down is how you break leadership stereotypes.
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Another thing he does is he goes through the 10 vulnerability signs and how to apply them in your life.
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One of the chapters I liked was titled The Sprinter and the Gymnast.
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I thought it was interesting because I was division one athlete and competed in cross country and track.
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But I thought it was a really profound way to explain the difference between subjectivity and objectivity and how we view things.
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Because if you think about it, and maybe you can tell the story, those two
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different sports have completely different ways of being evaluated.
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Yeah, completely.
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And so there are a couple of really cool stories in the book and you think of objective and subjective sports, right?
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An objective sport is something like sprinting, where it s very clear who the winner is.
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It s the first person to cross the finish line.
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So the gun goes off, everybody runs, you cross the finish line.
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There s no debate on who the winner is.
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But then you take a look at something like gymnastics and gymnastics is a very subjective sport.
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Because not only are you trying to execute on the technical aspects of your routine, but you re also being judged, right?
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That s why they re judges.
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You re being judged.
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In a lot of objective sports, you don t have judges.
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And it s actually funny that we call them that, right?
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You are being judged.
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You re being evaluated.
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Our opinions make a difference.
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And so there was a psychologist by the name of Thomas Gilovich.
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He s one of the people I interviewed for the book.
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And he spent a lot of time interviewing athletes who have competed in both types of sports, things like sprinting and then things like gymnastics.
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And he found without question that when people feel most anxious and nervous is when they compete in subjective sports, where you have to be thinking about what s going into the minds of the judges.
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And the reason why this is so important is because vulnerability is a subjective sport.
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vulnerability, there s no objective reality.
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There s no scoring mechanism, right?
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We re human beings.
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Sometimes things might get misconstrued.
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Sometimes things might get taken the wrong way.
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And the whole point of this chapter of the book is to say that there s a very simple technique that you can use to make sure that when you share or do something, that it gets taken in the right way.
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And I ve had,
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so many of these types of situations, right?
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And then you probably have as well, whether it s at work or outside of work, but you say, or do something with a good intention, whether it s vulnerability or whatever it might be.
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And then you can tell that after you say, or do it, the other person, like the mood changes, they become either angry or quiet.
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And when I say come off the wrong way, and this technique is just simply called the follow-up.
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The follow-up.
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Again, there have been many times in my life, especially with family and friends, even fairly recently, where I would say something or do something, and I could tell that the other person that I m saying this to is not receiving in the way that I had intended.
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Maybe it s a compliment, but the way that I said it, they re taking it as an insult.
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Maybe we re making plans for something, but the way I talked about making plans, they thought I was either canceling the plans or not wanting to hang out with them.
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And so frequently what I have to do is follow up.
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And if you can tell that it s not being received in the right way, hey, I just wanted to make sure I noticed that after I shared this or after I did this, the mood changed.
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I just want to make sure that you got this in the right way.
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How did you interpret what I just said?
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Or what did you think that I meant when I said this?
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And the simple idea of the follow-up is what allows you to make sure that you can try to improve going forward.
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And this is very good, whether again, it s interpersonal relationships or work relationships.
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But you have to remember that in sports, you don t get that follow up.
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In sports, you do your routine and it s done.
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You race and it s over.
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In life, you have the luxury of being able to follow up.
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Just because you say something or do something doesn t mean that s it.
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for all eternity.
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You can follow up, you can clarify, you can fix, you can try to improve.
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And so this is a very important thing for us to remember, because so many of us are scared to do this.
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We ll say something, we ll do something, the other person might not take it the right way, and then we stop.
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And then we just go tell our friends or significant others, we ll say, wow, I said this, and my friend took it like this, wow, they re such a jerk.
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And I always say, well, why don t you check in with them?
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Maybe they just didn t understand what you were saying.
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Maybe they just took it the wrong way.
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So use this power of the follow-up to make sure that your message, that what you re saying, whether it s vulnerability or anything else gets taken and understood the way that you want it to get taken and understood.
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SPEAKER_00
Well, thank you for sharing that, Jacob.
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And I have just two more questions for you.
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We ve talked a lot today about the balance between vulnerability and competence.
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And earlier on, when we were talking about the future of work, we were talking about the importance of measurement.
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And so I wanted to ask, what is the return on investment of leading with vulnerability?
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And is there a way that organizations can measure it?
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Sure.
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So there are, I think, two ways that we can look at this.
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Number one is the personal ROI, and then there s the business ROI.
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The personal ROI, I have this story in the book, which I won t get into the whole story, but basically it s this idea, a concept in psychology called mismatch theory.
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And so there used to be a time, and a lot of people listening and watching this will remember this, where command and control, hierarchy, not showing emotion, not talking about your mistakes or failures was a good thing.
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This is just what was accepted in the workplace.
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In fact, you ll remember that Fortune used to run a series of magazines called America s Toughest Bosses or the World s Toughest Bosses.
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And it was a badge of honor to be on the cover of this magazine.
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And it was a badge of honor to work for this kind of a CEO, right?
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The days of Jack Welsh, like it was accepted to be the celebrity CEO, to scream, to yell, like this is what the business environment was like.
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And I talked to a lot of CEOs who told me even in business school, that s what they were taught.
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They were taught to model the Jack Welsh s.
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And again, that was accepted in the business environment.
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And this concept of mismatch theory states that behaviors and attributes that were once beneficial to you become detrimental to you when your environment suddenly changes.
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And that s exactly what happened to us.
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Our environment has suddenly changed over the past few years.
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You can look at it over the past 10 plus years, but especially even over the past three to five years, post pandemic, our environment has suddenly changed.
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And so you as an individual, as a leader, have a choice.
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Are you going to adapt to the environment that we re a part of where we talk about employee experience and putting people first and well-being and those kinds of concepts?
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Are you going to adapt to lead in that kind of a world?
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Or are you going to stick to the old way of leading and hope that nobody notices?
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And my hope is that even just for your
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career success for your growth, for your development, you will adapt.
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That s the ROI for you.
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But then there s also the ROI from a business perspective.
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So again, I mentioned that we surveyed 14,000 employees.
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We looked at organizations all over the world.
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We interviewed CEOs.
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And so there s anecdotal and quantitative data on this as well.
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So some of the quantitative data, managers who regularly display vulnerability when appropriate are almost twice as likely to develop novel ideas in their teams, AKA innovation.
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Employees who work for these types of managers are almost three times as more likely to be vulnerable to themselves at work.
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They re more than five times as likely to trust their leaders.
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And inside of organizations where leaders display vulnerability always when appropriate, those types of organizations, the leaders who work there have a much higher perception of having high quality leaders.
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And so what I mean by that is,
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Inside of organizations where leaders never, not at all, or rarely display vulnerability, 56% of those leaders are viewed as high quality.
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So half, almost like a coin flip.
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In organizations where leaders always display vulnerability when appropriate, 86%
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percent of those leaders are viewed as high quality, right?
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That s almost 90%.
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So we re talking about a 30% gap in terms of the perception of high quality of leadership.
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That s very significant.
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And the numbers go on and on.
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We also looked at the ability to manage remote teams, the ability to create productivity and engagement.
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So across the board, when you lead with vulnerability, and again,
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Competence and connection.
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There is a significant ROI, not just to you as an individual, but also to your team, to your company as a whole.
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And I also have stories in the book from CEOs who ve explained that clearly just from the things that they have observed in terms of innovation and engagement and productivity.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I love that.
3
SPEAKER_00
So thank you so much for sharing it because I thought it was an important aspect for us to close on.
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SPEAKER_00
And the last question I wanted to ask is how can listeners, regardless of what level they re at, benefit from understanding and applying the principles of leading with vulnerability in their daily lives?
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SPEAKER_01
Oh my goodness.
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So in your daily life, are we talking about in a work context or outside of work context?
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SPEAKER_00
Let s frame it as in a work context.
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So in a work context, it s important to understand what these two elements are, right?
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If you break it down to its very simplistic points of view, it s about being good at
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your job and being able to connect with people.
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So if you look at it from that perspective, it s very clear why these things are important.
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Obviously you want to be good at your job because when you re good at your job, you can get promoted.
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You will be given more responsibilities.
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You will have, create more trust amongst your employees.
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Like it s very clear why you want to be good at your job.
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I don t think anybody ever shows up to work and says, well, why do I need to be good at my job?
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Well, because if not, you re going to get fired.
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And the connection piece is also important, right?
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Why do you want to create that sense of connection with the employees that you work with?
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Because you want to create trust.
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Because you want to be able to come up with new ideas for products and services.
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Because you want to be able to inspire and motivate people who are around you.
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You want to be able to unlock the potential of those around you.
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Now, in the book, I talk about these eight attributes of vulnerable leaders, which we won t get into all eight of those attributes.
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But the point of that is to show that leading with vulnerability, it s, if you ve ever seen like the Avengers and they have those infinity stones, and the idea is you collect all the infinity stones, then when you bring them together, you unleash this like tremendous power that you can wield.
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That s what leading with vulnerability is.
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When you bring together these eight attributes that you can develop, which include things like being self-compassionate, having motivation, being self-confident and several others.
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When you can bring these things together to who you are as a leader, it unlocks this tremendous power for you, which is leading with vulnerability and bringing these two pieces together of competence and connection.
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So it will dramatically change how you lead.
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I think it will change how you live.
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And I think it s the greatest superpower that you can create for yourself.
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It ll transform you, your team, and your organization.
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And if you want, can I give people one place to start with how to do this or how to think about this?
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I d love for you to.
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a very simple visual that you can use.
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And this is actually on the cover of the book.
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So the cover of the book is a mountain.
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And the cover of the book is that there s a character who s looking up at the mountain, getting ready to take this journey.
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And this is a very intentional metaphor because climbing a mountain is difficult.
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You re probably going to get beat up.
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You re probably going to get bruised.
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You re probably going to fall here and there.
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You might have to backtrack to go back up.
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It s a tough journey.
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It s a tough climb.
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But at the same time, the higher up the mountain you climb, the more people you ll meet on your journey, the more visibility that you get, the more beautiful the vistas become, the farther out you can see.
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So climbing a mountain and leading with vulnerability are the same thing.
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Base camp is always the easiest.
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Taking those first few steps is easy.
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but the higher up you get, usually the harder it becomes to climb.
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So what I always encourage people to do is to define what s your base camp.
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What s something that you can easily do now, something that you can do tomorrow.
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And what s something that scares the heck out of you, that s the peak of that mountain.
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Once you know what the base of the mountain is and what the peak of the mountain is, then you can take steps on a regular basis to climb the mountain.
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SPEAKER_00
Speaking of Penny Pennington from Edward Jones,
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She was also very hesitant to do this, right?
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She was a little bit apprehensive and she was scared.
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And I asked her, well, what s a technique that you have used to try to become more vulnerable, to lead with vulnerability inside of your organization?
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And she described this technique as keeping an ace up the sleeve.
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And what she did is obviously she gets in the elevator a lot with different employees and sometimes they make small talk.
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And it was very uncomfortable for her because she didn t know what to say.
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She didn t know how to create that connection with her people.
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So she would already plan this out in the back of her mind.
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Like when she would get in the elevator, she would already know what she s going to say.
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Whether it would be talking about what happened over the weekend and maybe something that can apply to work or whatever it was, she knew what she was going to say.
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She practiced it and she had her little ace up the sleeves that when people would get in the elevator, she knew how to make that conversation.
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She knew how to create that small connection.
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And it started there.
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And some people might say, well, it s maybe not as authentic and natural, but that s okay.
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That s where she started.
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That s what made her comfortable.
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That was her base camp.
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And then slowly over time, she became more comfortable and she had those conversations and she was able to incorporate the leadership and the vulnerability piece.
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So identify what that base camp is for you.
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And over time, you gradually, you climb that mountain.
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And I think what people will find is that as they climb that mountain, they re going to see tremendous
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transformation in their lives and in everybody around them.
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And one CEO who has been practicing this and doing this is Deb Cup.
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And she is the president of Microsoft in North America.
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And in the book, she s the CEO that I wrap up this section with this quote.
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And can I just read one sentence of what she said?
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Yeah, sure.
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Okay, she, I won t read the whole quote because it s a paragraph, but she basically said that climbing the mountain is an ongoing journey filled with plenty of bumps and bruises along the way.
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It s a journey that every good leader signs up for when they agree to be responsible for others.
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It s hard work, but you
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Your team and your organization deserve it.
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And I loved that quote from her because I think it very accurately sums up and summarizes why you should be climbing that mountain.
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So I hope everybody does, and I hope that I ll be seeing everybody on that vulnerability mountain.
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I love that we re ending on that.
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And Jacob, you mentioned it earlier on the podcast.
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Can you give the link where people can purchase the book and then maybe a link where people can get an understanding of the other books that you ve written as well?
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Yeah, there are a couple of places where people can either connect with me or learn more.
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So we created a special URL for the book, which is leadwithvulnerability.com.
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And then for people who do order a book, send me an email to bonusatthefutureorganization.com because if you do that, then I will send you five of the CEO interviews that I did, including with Jeff Immelt, former CEO of GE, Doug Parker from American Airlines,
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Penny Pennington and several others.
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So I ll send you that hour long conversation, audio and video that you can listen to it and hear with your own ears and see with your own eyes what that conversation was like.
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We created a Substack fairly recently, which is where we re archiving a lot of these podcasts and conversations.
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So if people want to go there, it s greatleadership.substack.com.
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My personal website where all the books are listed is thefutureorganization.com.
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And I can also give people my email if they have any questions or want to follow up.
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And that is Jacob at thefutureorganization.com.
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Great.
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Well, Jacob, it was such an honor to have you on today.
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And we just touched the tip of the mountain, you could say, as to what s in this book.
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So I highly encourage the listeners to go out there and buy a copy.
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Thank you so much.
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This was one of my favorite conversations to date.
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So I appreciate the time, the effort, the energy, you reaching out and having me on your show.
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It s been fantastic.
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So thank you.
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Oh, you re welcome.
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It was a pleasure.
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It was mine and the honor was mine.
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I thoroughly enjoyed that interview with Jacob Morgan and I wanted to thank Jacob and Wiley for the honor and privilege of having them appear on the show.
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Links to all things Jacob will be in the show notes at passionstruck.com.
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Please use our website links if you purchase any of the books from the guests that we feature here on the show.
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All proceeds go to supporting the show.
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Videos are on YouTube at our two stations, John R. Miles and Passionstruck Clips.
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Advertiser deals and discount codes are in one convenient place at PassionStruck.com slash deals.
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You can now pre-order my upcoming book, Passion Struck, where I detail 12 powerful principles that you can unlock to create an intentional life that you ve always wanted.
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Links will also be in the show notes.
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You can catch me on all the different social platforms at Jon R. Miles, where I post daily bits of motivation and inspiration.
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You can sign up for our weekly newsletter at both JonRMiles.com and PassionStruck.com.
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If you want to know how I book amazing guests like Jacob Morgan, it s because of my network.
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Go out there and build yours before you need it.
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You re about to hear a preview of the Passion Struck Podcast interview that I did with Laura Numeroff, who for over four decades has captivated young readers and captivated countless imaginations with her beloved If You Give series, as well as other enchanting tales.
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But Laura s impact
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goes far beyond her enchanting stories.
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She has become a beacon of inspiration through her philanthropic endeavors and her unwavering commitment to make a difference in the lives of others.
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When I was eight years old, I did want to become a children s author.
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I didn t really pay attention to my gut because I wanted to be like my sister.
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which wasn t authentic.
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I hate that word, but it s true.
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Everybody talks about your true self, your authentic self.
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And obviously that s what it came back to, is what was in my heart, what was in my gut that I wanted to do.
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It s so true that if you have a passion and you love it, I m very lucky to be one of the few people who get to make a living as an author.
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The fee for the show is that you share it with family or friends when you find something useful or interesting.
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If you know someone who needs to understand how to lead with vulnerability, then please share Jacob s episode today with those that you love and care about.
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The greatest compliment that you can give us is to share this show.
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In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so that you can live what you listen.
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Now, go out there and become PassionStruck.