0
SPEAKER_00
This is the story of how a group of people brought music back to Afghanistan by creating their own version of American Idol.
0
SPEAKER_00
The joy they brought to the nation.
0
SPEAKER_04
You re free completely.
0
SPEAKER_04
No one is there to destroy you.
0
SPEAKER_00
The danger they endured.
0
SPEAKER_04
They said my head should be cut off.
0
SPEAKER_00
I m John Legend.
0
SPEAKER_00
Listen to Afghan Star on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
0
SPEAKER_02
Guess what, Will?
0
SPEAKER_02
What s up, Mango?
0
SPEAKER_02
I ve been trying to write a promo for our podcast, Part-Time Genius, but even though we ve done over 250 episodes, we don t really talk about murders or cults.
0
SPEAKER_03
I mean, we did just cover the Illuminati of cheese, so I feel like that makes us pretty edgy.
0
SPEAKER_03
We also solve mysteries like how Chinese is your Chinese food and how do dollar stores make money?
0
SPEAKER_03
And then, of course, can you game a dog show?
0
SPEAKER_03
So what you re saying is everyone should be listening.
0
SPEAKER_03
Listen to Part-Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
0
SPEAKER_04
A new season of Bridgerton is here.
0
SPEAKER_04
And with it, a new season of Bridgerton, the official podcast.
0
SPEAKER_04
I m your host, Gabby Collins.
0
SPEAKER_04
And this season, we are bringing fans even deeper into the ton.
0
SPEAKER_04
Watch season three of the Shondaland series on Netflix.
0
SPEAKER_04
Then fall in love all over again by listening to Bridgerton, the official podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
0
SPEAKER_04
Subscribe to catch a new episode every Thursday.
0
SPEAKER_05
I think people treat dating like shopping.
0
SPEAKER_05
I want this.
0
SPEAKER_05
I m going to go find this.
0
SPEAKER_05
You don t choose a partner a la carte.
0
SPEAKER_05
How do I feel with this person?
0
SPEAKER_05
That is the most important question you can ask.
0
SPEAKER_05
And if you enjoy their company, you feel heard, you feel understood, all the rest is just noise.
0
SPEAKER_01
A psychotherapist and New York Times bestselling author.
0
SPEAKER_05
Lori, Lori Gottlieb.
0
SPEAKER_05
A lot of times relational issues are childhood issues in disguise.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I think you re spot on.
0
SPEAKER_05
Many problems are so fixable.
0
SPEAKER_05
You can heal a lot of things to have more of a relationship than you ever thought possible.
0
SPEAKER_01
Before we jump into this episode, I d like to invite you to join this community to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed.
0
SPEAKER_01
All I want you to do is click on the subscribe button.
0
SPEAKER_01
I love your support.
0
SPEAKER_01
It s incredible to see all your comments and we re just getting started.
0
SPEAKER_01
I can t wait to go on this journey with you.
0
SPEAKER_01
Thank you so much for subscribing.
0
SPEAKER_01
It means the world to me.
0
SPEAKER_01
Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world, thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to become happier, healthier, and more healed.
0
SPEAKER_01
I m so grateful that you lend me your ears every day, some of you multiple times per day, or multiple times per week, to dive into conversations, to help you grow, to help you become the person that you want to be and connect with your authentic self.
0
SPEAKER_01
Today s guest is someone who s been on the show before and you loved the episode, so we had to bring her back.
0
SPEAKER_01
I m speaking about the one and only Laurie Gottlieb, a psychotherapist and New York Times bestselling author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, which has sold nearly 2 million copies and is currently being adapted as a television series.
0
SPEAKER_01
In addition to Laurie s clinical practice, Laurie is co-host of the popular Dear Therapist podcast and she writes the Atlantic s Dear Therapist advice column.
0
SPEAKER_01
Check those out if you haven t already.
0
SPEAKER_01
Laurie s the creator of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone workbook, a toolkit for editing your story and changing your life, and Maybe You Should Talk to Someone journal,
0
SPEAKER_01
52 weekly sessions to transform your life.
0
SPEAKER_01
If you don t have a copy of this, make sure you go and grab one while we re having this conversation.
0
SPEAKER_01
And I m so excited to welcome again to On Purpose, Laurie Gottlieb.
0
SPEAKER_01
Laurie, thank you for being here.
0
SPEAKER_05
Thanks so much, Jay.
0
SPEAKER_05
It s so great to be here again.
0
SPEAKER_01
I ve always loved collaborating with you and I ve always appreciated your work.
0
SPEAKER_01
I know so many people in my life that have benefited from your work and your books and your podcast and everything you do online.
0
SPEAKER_01
And so I thought the most fitting thing to do and my team thought was to get you questions from our audience so that you could answer real life scenarios, challenges, pain points that my friends or my community are going through.
0
SPEAKER_01
How does that sound?
0
SPEAKER_05
That sounds fantastic.
0
SPEAKER_01
Yeah?
0
SPEAKER_01
All right.
0
SPEAKER_01
Well, let s dive in.
0
SPEAKER_01
So I ve been talking to a friend.
0
SPEAKER_01
And one of the biggest challenges she s going through is that men tend to want to have a relationship with her, even though she tends to want to be friends with them, and is open potentially at some point in the future to going somewhere else, but is not putting herself out there saying, I want to be in a relationship, I want to date.
0
SPEAKER_01
She wants to just build up good connections, good friendships.
0
SPEAKER_01
And what ends up happening is that she ends up in these scenarios where
0
SPEAKER_01
men are then sometimes guilting, shaming, bullying her into believing that there s something more here and that she s denying it.
0
SPEAKER_01
And she feels really uncomfortable because deep down she cares about this individual.
0
SPEAKER_01
She admires them, appreciates them, but she just doesn t see them romantically.
0
SPEAKER_01
And I think what s really hard is the deeper point that I think is more universal that a lot of people can connect with is you care about someone, just not in that way, so you don t know how to keep a distance
0
SPEAKER_01
At the same time, you don t want to be intimate with them.
0
SPEAKER_01
Does that make sense?
0
SPEAKER_05
Yeah, it absolutely does.
0
SPEAKER_05
And I think that the problem people have is that they feel like, I don t want to hurt this person.
0
SPEAKER_05
And at the same time, they re not thinking about what matters in this friendship to me.
0
SPEAKER_05
So it doesn t sound like a great friendship if the other person is telling you, no, you actually feel this other way.
0
SPEAKER_05
So you want to talk about, are you willing, are you interested in being friends with me?
0
SPEAKER_05
Because I m not interested in anything else.
0
SPEAKER_05
And part of being friends with me is hearing what I have to say and believing me.
0
SPEAKER_05
Otherwise I don t think we re going to have a friendship that s healthy.
0
SPEAKER_05
So if you want to be in my life, I would like to be in your life.
0
SPEAKER_05
If you want that, then I need you to believe me when I tell you this is how I feel and not try to push me into something that doesn t feel comfortable to me.
0
SPEAKER_05
And then that person can really think, do I want this person in my life?
0
SPEAKER_05
Knowing this is their hard boundary.
0
SPEAKER_05
But people don t say it that way.
0
SPEAKER_05
They feel like I m going to hurt this person, or they start arguing with the person.
0
SPEAKER_05
If you find yourself arguing with someone about how you feel, that s not a great friendship.
0
SPEAKER_01
And that s so hard, right?
0
SPEAKER_01
I feel today so many of these conversations are happening over text or messaging.
0
SPEAKER_01
These aren t face-to-face conversations.
0
SPEAKER_01
They re happening in a way where you re writing this much, someone s responding, reply back.
0
SPEAKER_01
When you find that this goes on and on and on, and it can kind of spiral for days, sometimes weeks,
0
SPEAKER_01
How do you kind of accept that it might be time to draw a line, maybe distance or disconnect and move on even though that s painful?
0
SPEAKER_01
Or what is that moment where you can kind of just say, I m going to honor myself, I m going to honor what I wanted from this friendship.
0
SPEAKER_01
That doesn t exist anymore.
0
SPEAKER_05
You know, first of all, I think that this thing about text is really important.
0
SPEAKER_05
I have so many clients who come into therapy and they ll say, you know, we had this conversation and they ll tell me this conversation that went on and on and on and on.
0
SPEAKER_05
And I m thinking, how did this conversation go on?
0
SPEAKER_05
Were they there for five hours?
0
SPEAKER_05
What happened?
0
SPEAKER_05
And it turns out they d been texting for days about it.
0
SPEAKER_05
I said, why didn t you just have this conversation face to face?
0
SPEAKER_05
And they say, well, that would have been too hard, but look how hard it is to have it on text.
0
SPEAKER_05
I think it s so much harder to have it on text because when you re together, you re actually connecting, even if it s difficult, even if you re saying some things that might cause some discomfort, it s easier actually to do it in person.
0
SPEAKER_05
So it s kind of paradoxical that people think I m going to protect myself and somebody else by doing this on text because you re not protecting anyone.
0
SPEAKER_05
It s easier to have a challenging conversation in person.
0
SPEAKER_05
It goes so much better.
0
SPEAKER_01
How have you encouraged
0
SPEAKER_01
People to take that leap into having difficult conversations across relationships not just in this scenario in person because.
0
SPEAKER_01
It s exactly what you just said people feel anxious they feel like they were not a control their emotions they feel they might say something that i mean all the other person might say something they re not ready to hear.
0
SPEAKER_01
And I find more and more people, whether it s in the workplace, whether it s in their marriage, whether it s in a friendship, struggle to have difficult conversations face to face.
0
SPEAKER_01
What are some of the practices or methods or tools that you ve shared with people to help them do that?
0
SPEAKER_05
Well, first of all, I think that people establish patterns in a relationship very early on.
0
SPEAKER_05
I always say that relationships are like cement.
0
SPEAKER_05
So in the beginning, there s a little flexibility.
0
SPEAKER_05
So the other person is texting you when you want to have a conversation, you can kind of mold that by saying, Hey, let s talk in person.
0
SPEAKER_05
But if you keep texting them, then the cement dries and that becomes the pattern in the relationship with anything.
0
SPEAKER_05
So many people put up with a lot at the beginning of a relationship because they think this person has all these other great qualities.
0
SPEAKER_05
So what if they can t really have a conversation with me?
0
SPEAKER_05
Right.
0
SPEAKER_05
Um, you know, I have so much fun with them or I can fix them or over time I ll bring this up later, but I don t want to bring it up now because we re early in the relationship.
0
SPEAKER_05
No, no, no.
0
SPEAKER_05
That s the time.
1
SPEAKER_00
should bring it up because the cement is drying and it dries quickly.
1
SPEAKER_00
So patterns get established.
1
SPEAKER_00
So if the cement is dry and then you try to change it and say, let s have a face to face conversation.
1
SPEAKER_00
But you guys have been texting about things for months instead of talking about them.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s really hard to change that.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I would say very early on, establish what you want in a relationship.
1
SPEAKER_00
And if the other person isn t down for it, that s really good information to have early on.
1
SPEAKER_01
It s almost like, well, now if you want to talk to me about it in person, it must be high stakes.
1
SPEAKER_01
It almost like amplifies how significant this moment is when it shouldn t be that way.
1
SPEAKER_01
It should be the norm.
1
SPEAKER_01
If someone is doing it later on in a relationship, how do they do it in a way that doesn t feel like this is groundbreaking or this is, we need to talk?
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s, it s really, it s actually pretty straightforward.
1
SPEAKER_00
And, and I know, I know it s, it s hard to do in the moment, but to be able to just make that shift in the relationship and say, you know what?
1
SPEAKER_00
I know we ve been texting about this stuff, but I think it ll be so much better for us.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s so much easier to talk about this in person.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then you see, will the other person show up?
1
SPEAKER_00
Will they, will they keep texting you or will they say, sure, let s get together.
1
SPEAKER_00
Let s talk about it.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
I feel like a lot of people just keep texting.
1
SPEAKER_00
Because, because what they re afraid of is they re afraid that it s going to be harder that again, like, like they re going to drop some big bombshell and you re saying, no, I just want us to be able to be in a room together and talk about anything.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, absolutely.
1
SPEAKER_01
All right.
1
SPEAKER_01
Great.
1
SPEAKER_01
Well, I hope.
1
SPEAKER_01
Friend, if you re listening, I hope that answers your question.
1
SPEAKER_01
Another one that kept coming up from our audience, there were a couple of people who felt this way, was around, and I want to spend some time in, actually we ll go back and forth, we ll go back and forth, we ll come back to relationships.
1
SPEAKER_01
One of the biggest ones that we obviously get a lot about is social anxiety.
1
SPEAKER_01
And a lot of the questions that came up and some of the stories that I dived into was people just struggling with being around big groups, people going to
1
SPEAKER_01
Events or parties or even their friends home where other people are there struggling to strike up a conversation feeling lonely and disconnected even in the crowd feeling uncomfortable being able to.
1
SPEAKER_01
share what they re doing and feeling confident about what they re doing.
1
SPEAKER_01
Let s talk about where s the root of some of that social anxiety coming from.
1
SPEAKER_01
I know it can be many different things.
1
SPEAKER_01
What are the variety of things it can be?
1
SPEAKER_01
And what have you seen some of the ways of helping people understand that anxiety better rather than staying at home, keeping away, and maybe not encouraged to go out and meet people?
1
SPEAKER_00
So I think that whatever we re experiencing is relational.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so a lot of times relational issues are childhood issues in disguise and even with social anxiety.
1
SPEAKER_00
So for example, if you have a story that you ve been told when you were younger, like I m not good enough or I don t measure up or, you know, people are going to criticize me, whatever your experience had been.
1
SPEAKER_00
You re going to project that onto all of your relationships as an adult.
1
SPEAKER_00
So social anxiety is usually something about, I will not be liked.
1
SPEAKER_00
I will not be loved.
1
SPEAKER_00
And that has to do with how you were liked or loved when you were younger, if you haven t processed that and worked that out.
1
SPEAKER_00
So I think that it s about kind of rewriting your story before you say, you know, I m not going to go to that event.
1
SPEAKER_00
What is, what am I afraid of?
1
SPEAKER_00
When am I afraid someone s going to think, and is that true?
1
SPEAKER_00
And do I have evidence from other parts of my life now as an adult that it s not true?
1
SPEAKER_00
I think, unfortunately, the stories that people told us about ourselves are about the storyteller, meaning it was the person in our past
1
SPEAKER_00
who had mental health issues or they had their own insecurities and they projected them onto their children.
1
SPEAKER_00
They were limited.
1
SPEAKER_00
They didn t know how to interact.
1
SPEAKER_00
They didn t know how to love.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then they criticized their children or they neglected their children or they couldn t hear them or see them or value them.
1
SPEAKER_00
They couldn t feel that, that excitement around like, I love who this human being is.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I think then that gets internalized.
1
SPEAKER_00
And then you grow up and you think everybody in the world thinks that about me.
1
SPEAKER_00
And A, it s just not true that other people think that, but more importantly, it s just not true that you are whatever story you were told about you.
1
SPEAKER_00
So you need to say, what is the true story?
1
SPEAKER_00
And then you go into that environment with the true story.
1
SPEAKER_00
And it doesn t mean you have to go to a party with a hundred people.
1
SPEAKER_00
it means maybe i open up to a friend a little bit more maybe i try hanging out with a group of three people and see what that s like and you kind of experiment and when you see that this store is old story doesn t seem to be playing out in these new situations you get more confident going into bigger and bigger situations yeah it s those baby steps and i often surprise people when i tell them that i m
1
SPEAKER_01
in some cases, so much more of an introvert than I am an extrovert.
1
SPEAKER_01
And it s so, it s kind of confusing for people because I generally am in places where I can be my extrovert self.
1
SPEAKER_01
But if I go to an event where I don t know anyone, I m likely to try and find one person that I can have a really deep, meaningful conversation with.
1
SPEAKER_01
rather than working the room or trying to connect with loads of people because i feel so much happier and fulfilled if i can walk away from an event and go, wow i met one person and we have so much in common and we share so many values and now i m actually going to keep in touch with that person.
1
SPEAKER_01
as opposed to the idea of like, well, oh my God, I feel the pressure that I need to talk to 20 people here and I should be networking and I should be exchanging numbers and whatever it may be, which isn t how I like to operate.
1
SPEAKER_01
And so I love that idea of those baby steps and starting small.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I also think there s a difference between being an introvert.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m exactly like you in the sense of, I really like to have these deep conversations and I d rather be with fewer people and have a deeper connection than be with more people and have a more superficial connection.
1
SPEAKER_00
But at the same time, I feel like it s one thing to say, I would rather have these sort of smaller, more intimate conversations, but I m not anxious going into them.
1
SPEAKER_00
And so I think what you re talking about with social anxiety is I m anxious to just reveal the truth of who I am to anybody.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m, I m worried about showing up and being found wanting.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I think that is what, what
1
SPEAKER_01
a lot of people are struggling with.
1
SPEAKER_01
So I guess, does it help then having a question you want to ask people?
1
SPEAKER_01
Does it help?
1
SPEAKER_01
I found that for people that I work with when they struggle because they re like, what do we talk about?
1
SPEAKER_01
I don t want to sit there and talk about the weather or I don t want to talk about the news or, and it was like having a question to open with, to ask, to share with someone and being confident to share on that question felt like something that definitely has helped me and help people I know where
1
SPEAKER_01
you also know that you do feel comfortable sharing that part of your life.
1
SPEAKER_01
Have you found any other tools or methods that have helped individuals in those spaces?
1
SPEAKER_00
What you re saying is so true, and I think that s curiosity.
1
SPEAKER_00
That I think when people feel anxious, they feel like they have to tell a story that s entertaining.
1
SPEAKER_00
They have to keep the person from being bored with whatever they re talking about.
1
SPEAKER_00
People like to talk about themselves.
1
SPEAKER_00
So if you re, and I don t mean that in kind of a narcissistic way, I mean that people like it when you show interest in them.
1
SPEAKER_00
And we don t, a lot of people don t ask other people about themselves enough.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
So when they have an opportunity for a person who genuinely is curious, this isn t just some kind of strategy for your social anxiety.
1
SPEAKER_00
It s actually a way to relate to people.
1
SPEAKER_00
I m genuinely curious to get to know you and you ask questions about their life.
1
SPEAKER_00
They re going to be really interested in interacting with you.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, and I think what s even more true about what you re saying is that everyone s feeling that way, and therefore everyone feels like everyone is uninterested in everyone else.
1
SPEAKER_01
And so I ve been to events with people before and they ve come with me and they ve said, oh, that person was so cold, or that person seemed like they had an ego.
1
SPEAKER_01
And I was like, well, no, I know that that person just feels uncomfortable in these settings.
1
SPEAKER_01
And it s weird how we all just look at each other and we kind of make these judgments of like, oh, they were cold, they brushed me off.
1
SPEAKER_01
But actually everyone s just feeling quite anxious as opposed to having this like vendetta against you or some sort of, and obviously there could be something else as you get to know them better, but it s worth giving someone the benefit of the doubt and stepping it out there.
1
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_00
And I also think another thing that turns people off is when you ask about sort of external things, like, tell me about what you do, tell me about your work, right?
1
SPEAKER_00
Because then it feels like, oh, are they trying to network with me or do they actually want to get to know me?
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, you can ask something like, where did you grow up?
1
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
1
SPEAKER_00
Something as simple as that.
1
SPEAKER_00
And they re like, Oh, I grew up here.
1
SPEAKER_00
Oh, really?
1
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
1
SPEAKER_00
You know, that s so different from where I grew up or I grew up somewhere similar.
1
SPEAKER_00
And you know, did you have siblings?
1
SPEAKER_00
Did you, what was that like?
1
SPEAKER_00
How did you end up here?
1
SPEAKER_00
Just get their story.
1
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely.
1
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
1
SPEAKER_01
I think you re spot on.
1
SPEAKER_01
I, I think the work question is kind of,
1
SPEAKER_01
It s kind of faded away.
1
SPEAKER_01
I feel like it s how people used to talk and connect.
1
SPEAKER_01
And you re so right.
1
SPEAKER_01
I think now everyone always feels like, what s the agenda here?
1
SPEAKER_01
But asking about, yeah, how, for me, when I m at a birthday party, like, how do you know the person whose birthday is, how do you know the person who s getting married?
1
SPEAKER_01
Like, how are you connected to them?
1
SPEAKER_01
I found that to be a much healthier question.
1
SPEAKER_01
And then as you were just saying now, like, I love asking people where they re from, because I m from London.
1
SPEAKER_01
I lived in New York.
1
SPEAKER_01
I live here now.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s like, it s great for me to learn about the United States because people are from all over the place here and places I ve never heard of or never been to.
2
SPEAKER_01
It can be an education and all of a sudden it s, you can see someone opening up and it s easy for most people to mention where they grew up or where they started rather than a question about like,
2
SPEAKER_01
their job or whatever it may be.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
Because that always feels there s so much pressure with that.
2
SPEAKER_00
Am I successful enough?
2
SPEAKER_00
Am I telling the right story?
2
SPEAKER_00
Or if you are successful, I don t want to make them feel bad.
2
SPEAKER_00
You know, so there s all this stuff underneath.
2
SPEAKER_00
Um, whereas we re just connecting human to human with, tell me about yourself.
2
SPEAKER_00
Tell me about your story.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, absolutely.
2
SPEAKER_01
All right.
2
SPEAKER_01
Now I want to switch into back into relationships because it seems to be a big one.
2
SPEAKER_01
And this is something that,
2
SPEAKER_01
couple of people that came to our audience have been struggling with and it was this idea of being with someone or dating someone but you don t like their work ethic or you don t think they are focused enough so these people
2
SPEAKER_01
say that I m very hardworking, I m very focused, I ve started dating this person who I like a lot of qualities they have, but something I really obviously value is someone who s driven and ambitious and a doer, but I m not really seeing that in them.
2
SPEAKER_01
Does this relationship have a chance to last?
2
SPEAKER_01
Does it have a future?
2
SPEAKER_01
Or am I always going to feel this way?
2
SPEAKER_00
This reminds me of this saying, you don t choose a partner a la carte.
2
SPEAKER_00
You can t just order up all the qualities that you want.
2
SPEAKER_00
I want them to be sensitive, and I want them to be kind, and I want them to be super driven and ambitious.
2
SPEAKER_00
You get what you get, and there s going to be all these different qualities.
2
SPEAKER_00
And if that s really important to you, and you are going to feel like, I want to change this person, then that s doomed.
2
SPEAKER_00
that the person is who they are.
2
SPEAKER_00
Now, it s different if the person says, I m working on this for myself.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is something that I m trying to do.
2
SPEAKER_00
This is my area of growth right now.
2
SPEAKER_00
And maybe you might say, how can I support you?
2
SPEAKER_00
And then you only do what they ask.
2
SPEAKER_00
You don t do more than they asked in terms of supporting them.
2
SPEAKER_00
But if you want someone who comes, you know,
2
SPEAKER_00
intrinsically driven in that way, that s probably not a good partner for you.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I guess the counterpoint is also true that you may discover someone ambitious and driven, but they may not have the other qualities.
2
SPEAKER_01
But I think
2
SPEAKER_01
It s obviously what researchers today are calling the paradox of choice, right?
2
SPEAKER_01
We ve heard that so many times.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I think today, because there is so much more choice, or at least the perception that there is so much more choice, I think there is a belief that people have of, I don t want to settle.
2
SPEAKER_01
I believe this person does exist that will have all of these things.
2
SPEAKER_01
How have you navigated that with clients when they re telling you, I feel like I m getting older, I m worried about my body clock, I m scared about not finding someone, I m getting pressure from my parents and my friends, but at the same time, I don t want to settle, which is a completely fair, valid feeling.
2
SPEAKER_01
Right.
2
SPEAKER_01
At the same time, you re saying, well, you can t order someone a la carte.
2
SPEAKER_01
How do you help people grapple with those, I guess, conflicting ideas, or what at least seems that way?
2
SPEAKER_00
I think you have to know what your deal breakers are, but they have to be the right kind of deal breakers.
2
SPEAKER_00
So I want people to kind of let go of some of the things that research shows doesn t matter for a happy, lasting relationship.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I want people to have higher standards, ironically, about what does.
2
SPEAKER_00
So the character issues, you know, is this person a kind person?
2
SPEAKER_00
The two most
2
SPEAKER_00
important predictors of whether a relationship will succeed are emotional stability.
2
SPEAKER_00
Do you both have emotional stability?
2
SPEAKER_00
Are you whole in that way?
2
SPEAKER_00
I don t mean like you re finished, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
I just mean that you can self-regulate, you can have a conversation, you don t act out in egregious ways, you re honest, those kinds of things.
2
SPEAKER_00
And the other one is flexibility.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s really hard to be in a relationship with someone who s very rigid.
2
SPEAKER_00
So those are two things really to think about.
2
SPEAKER_00
But in terms of the character qualities that should be the big deal breakers, is this person responsible?
2
SPEAKER_00
Do they say, do they mean what they say?
2
SPEAKER_00
How did they show up?
2
SPEAKER_00
What do they do under stress?
2
SPEAKER_00
That s really important because you will experience that in the course of your lives together.
2
SPEAKER_00
Do they have a sense of humor, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
In when things are stressful, can, can we still hold those contradictions of this is hard and we can support each other and make each other laugh?
2
SPEAKER_00
you know, the things that people get hung up on are, oh, I m not sure that that career is the career that I want to be with someone, right?
2
SPEAKER_00
As opposed to, wow, they re really passionate about this thing.
2
SPEAKER_00
That s a really cool quality.
2
SPEAKER_00
So maybe they won t make as much money, but between what I make and what they make, will that work for us?
2
SPEAKER_00
So, you know, letting go is sort of like a lot of these fantasies that we re told growing up we should be looking for in a partner versus who do you want to spend time with every day?
2
SPEAKER_00
Who is the person that you really enjoy spending time with, who you also feel safe with?
2
SPEAKER_00
And I think safety is so important.
2
SPEAKER_00
I feel safe with this person because I know that the rug is not going to be pulled out from under me.
2
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s such great advice.
2
SPEAKER_01
I couldn t be more excited to share something truly special with all you tea lovers out there.
2
SPEAKER_01
And even if you don t love tea, if you love refreshing, rejuvenating, refueling sodas that are good for you, listen to this.
2
SPEAKER_01
Radhi and I poured our hearts into creating Juni Sparkling Tea with Adaptogens for you because we believe in nurturing your body and with every sip, you ll experience calmness of mind, a refreshing vitality and a burst of brightness to your day.
2
SPEAKER_01
Juni is infused with adaptogens that are amazing natural substances that act like superheroes for your body to help you adapt to stress and find balance in your busy life.
2
SPEAKER_01
Our Super 5 blend of these powerful ingredients include green tea, ashwagandha,
2
SPEAKER_01
acerola cherry, and lion s mane mushroom, and these may help boost your metabolism, give you a natural kick of caffeine, combat stress, pack your body with antioxidants, and stimulate brain function.
2
SPEAKER_01
Even better, Juni has zero sugar and only 5 calories per can.
2
SPEAKER_01
We believe in nurturing and energizing your body while enjoying a truly delicious and refreshing drink.
2
SPEAKER_01
So visit drinkjuni.com today to elevate your wellness journey and use code ONPURPOSE to receive 15% off your first order.
2
SPEAKER_01
That s drinkjuni.com and make sure you use the code ONPURPOSE.
2
SPEAKER_01
I love hearing about the things that should be deal breakers and the things that shouldn t and I want to talk about those first two.
2
SPEAKER_01
I find that
2
SPEAKER_01
So much growth today, and maybe it s always been this way, but so much of our growth is happening while we re with people.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s not happening in that we solved it before we were 18 or 21, and now we move on to a relationship.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I don t think people are often getting the best versions of people.
2
SPEAKER_01
You re getting the work in progress version.
2
SPEAKER_01
At all times, like you said, no one s ever finished.
2
SPEAKER_01
But I find that more often than not, I m just hearing about such a lack of flexibility and such a lack of emotional regulation when I m hearing about people s stories and learning about them and how people talk to each other, how people deal with problems.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I find, of course,
2
SPEAKER_01
Where do, obviously all of that, I mean, talking to you from a therapy perspective, a lot of that s coming from childhood, a lot of that s coming from personal trauma.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s very hard to make sense of that when you first meet someone and you re dating someone, you re almost meeting the, you are meeting the best version of them because it s the one they re portraying or the one that they want you to see.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then naturally,
2
SPEAKER_01
You spend longer with someone, you see them stressed, you see them angry, you see them upset.
2
SPEAKER_01
You start seeing all of this other 360.
2
SPEAKER_01
I guess the question is, how do we allow for the fact that we re less likely to meet someone who is the finished product?
2
SPEAKER_01
but at the same time, give ourselves enough time to not feel too deep or fall too hard.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think about that saying in the first three months of a relationship, you re not you, you re the ambassador of you.
2
SPEAKER_00
So it s very hard to know and everybody s on their best behavior.
2
SPEAKER_00
Um, but I think that people, you know, you re still having a lot of deep discussions in those first three months cause you feel this incredible vulnerability and intimacy and people will tell you,
2
SPEAKER_00
a lot of things that maybe you don t want to hear.
2
SPEAKER_00
So they are these red flags and you kind of block them out.
2
SPEAKER_00
You think, oh, well that s okay.
2
SPEAKER_00
Or I m not going to pay attention to that.
2
SPEAKER_00
You project onto them who you want them to be as opposed to who they actually are.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I think that what you said about we grow in relationship is so true.
2
SPEAKER_00
I think that people grow so much more in couples therapy than they might even in individual therapy because you are forced to contend with another person that you re coming up against.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I really feel like, A, you have to listen to those, to those, everything that they tell you, the good,
3
SPEAKER_02
the kind of questionable, all of it.
3
SPEAKER_02
And just say, what does that mean?
3
SPEAKER_02
And you can even think about, well, let me get more information about that.
3
SPEAKER_02
What did they mean when they said, oh, they don t really want kids?
3
SPEAKER_02
Like, what does that mean?
3
SPEAKER_02
Does that mean now?
3
SPEAKER_02
Does that mean ever?
3
SPEAKER_02
What does that mean?
3
SPEAKER_02
You have to listen to these things.
3
SPEAKER_02
Um, you know, what does that mean where they re, they talk really, really, uh, you know, in, in, with a lot of aggressive language about a parents, for example, that means that yes, maybe that parent really disappointed them and maybe there was a lot of trauma, but how have a sort of process that, and where are they with processing that?
3
SPEAKER_02
Because if that s still so raw to them, that will come out in your relationship with them.
3
SPEAKER_02
You might not think they re going to, that s going to come out toward you, but it will.
3
SPEAKER_02
right?
3
SPEAKER_02
We marry our unfinished business.
3
SPEAKER_02
So I think you really have to look out for that.
3
SPEAKER_02
So no, you re not looking for like a person who has all the answers.
3
SPEAKER_02
I don t think anybody ever has all the answers, but you re looking for willingness to show up, willingness to take responsibility, willingness to apologize,
3
SPEAKER_02
That s huge.
3
SPEAKER_02
And also willingness to bring things up.
3
SPEAKER_02
So, and are you willing to hear what the other person has to say?
3
SPEAKER_02
So a lot of times when I m seeing a couple and someone will say, you know, Oh, this person never brings things up.
3
SPEAKER_02
I m less interested in the fact that they don t bring it up.
3
SPEAKER_02
And I m more interested in why, what are you afraid of?
3
SPEAKER_02
Why can t you talk to your partner?
3
SPEAKER_02
And they might say,
3
SPEAKER_02
When I have brought things up, my partner tries to talk me out of the way that I feel.
3
SPEAKER_02
When I try to bring things up, my partner tries to tell me I m wrong.
3
SPEAKER_02
When I try to bring things up, my partner shuts down.
3
SPEAKER_02
When I try to bring things up, my partner yells.
3
SPEAKER_02
I m, when I try to bring things up, my partner acts like they don t like me anymore.
3
SPEAKER_02
Right.
3
SPEAKER_02
So then they say, okay, I m not going to bring things up.
3
SPEAKER_02
So then we need to talk about, well, this is a dance that the two of you are doing.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s not just that this person is avoidant.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s that you are inviting the avoidance.
3
SPEAKER_02
So no one s to blame here.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s just that you guys are doing a dance and you both have to change your dance steps.
3
SPEAKER_02
If you want to change the dynamic in the relationship.
3
SPEAKER_00
I think a lot of our inflexibility leads to this binary thinking of, oh my gosh, if they ve got issues with their parents, then I can t be with them.
3
SPEAKER_00
Or if they ve got this, I can t be with them.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I think, or if they re like this, then I should be with them.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I almost feel like there s that middle ground of just, no, I just, these are things I need to be aware of.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then I can still be in a relationship or choose not to, but.
3
SPEAKER_00
I feel like there s a lot of binary decision-making based on small data points.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because we are so scared by our own trigger or by our own pain that comes from that, that we can easily write something off that may just need a little more work.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
I don t know if that, if you agree, you can disagree completely.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s just, I m just sharing what my thoughts are at least.
3
SPEAKER_02
Oh, yeah, I agree.
3
SPEAKER_02
A great example of that is I was seeing a couple and he had a lot of issues with authority because his father really kind of misused authority as he was growing up.
3
SPEAKER_02
So that s a big trigger for him.
3
SPEAKER_02
And he s really working on it.
3
SPEAKER_02
So if he wasn t working on it, that would be different, but he s really working on it.
3
SPEAKER_02
But sometimes
3
SPEAKER_02
things happen.
3
SPEAKER_02
And so his partner had this beautiful, we came up with in couples therapy, a beautiful way for her, you know, when you can see the childhood wounds and you can help your, they re working on it.
3
SPEAKER_02
So you re not solving it for them, but you can support them in some way.
3
SPEAKER_02
So if she saw him out in public, maybe getting triggered by something, it wouldn t happen often.
3
SPEAKER_02
If it happened a lot, that would be a problem.
3
SPEAKER_02
She would just put her hand on his arm like that.
3
SPEAKER_02
And it just calmed his nervous system.
3
SPEAKER_02
And it brought him to the present.
3
SPEAKER_02
It was such a beautiful thing that she could do for him.
3
SPEAKER_02
And she had stuff from childhood, and he knew, oh, I can see the little girl in her right now.
3
SPEAKER_02
I have so much compassion.
3
SPEAKER_02
Instead of getting frustrated by it, so much compassion for the little girl.
3
SPEAKER_02
I know this about her, and here s what I can do for her in that moment.
3
SPEAKER_02
These shorthands, these little things that you can do to kind of help someone, instead of going from zero to 60, just go from like zero to five, and then be like, oh, now I can come back down.
3
SPEAKER_00
We think we can see where our partner s triggers are and what their weaknesses are, especially if you get to know them better.
3
SPEAKER_00
And you start to think, oh yeah, I know that his mom talks to him like that.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so that s why he s talking to me like that, because he s taking that stress out on me.
3
SPEAKER_00
That s useful, but often we don t look at that as context and compassion and empathy.
3
SPEAKER_00
We look at that as, how does he not get it?
3
SPEAKER_00
Or how did they not get it?
3
SPEAKER_00
That that s where it comes from.
3
SPEAKER_00
And we almost want our partner to like learn the lesson or it s so obvious, how can you not see it?
3
SPEAKER_00
And here you are talking about like a gentle touch on the arm that helps women calm their trigger.
3
SPEAKER_00
How do you help each other understand your triggers
3
SPEAKER_00
in a way that doesn t trigger you because i feel like it s such a sensitive conversation to have and because we some people are self unaware and some are self-aware or you re seeing things in others but you can t see in yourself how do you have healthier conversations around
3
SPEAKER_00
Hey, do you know why we re behaving this way?
3
SPEAKER_00
Do you know why we re talking like this?
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_02
We just had a beautiful episode on the podcast.
3
SPEAKER_02
So on our podcast, Dear Therapist, we have, we bring people on for actual sessions and then we give them homework to do.
3
SPEAKER_02
And then they tell us how it went at the end of the session.
3
SPEAKER_02
We had this young couple on and her trigger was weight.
3
SPEAKER_02
that she wanted to, she was trying to set a boundary, but it was a very difficult boundary.
3
SPEAKER_02
It was, you know, sometimes we think about boundaries as I m going to make this request and you re going to do it.
3
SPEAKER_02
And if you don t do it, then you have broken my boundary.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s not how boundaries work.
3
SPEAKER_02
Boundaries are about, and I think this is a really important point related to this, which is that when you set a boundary, you re deciding for yourself what you will do, not what the other person will do.
3
SPEAKER_02
So you can say to the other person in her case, I don t like it when you talk about weight because that s a big trigger for me.
3
SPEAKER_02
Growing up, that was something that was always talked about.
3
SPEAKER_02
I don t want to talk about dieting.
3
SPEAKER_02
I don t want to talk about people s weight or people s appearance.
3
SPEAKER_02
That really bothers me.
3
SPEAKER_02
But it got to the point where he couldn t say anything.
3
SPEAKER_02
about, you know, like it was, it was too restrictive of a boundary.
3
SPEAKER_02
And so they would argue about this because then you re just like, I m just not going to say anything because I never know what s going to trigger you.
3
SPEAKER_02
Her boundary could have been, I m going to ask him not to say a reasonable number of things about weight, but there are certain things that he might say, and I m going to have to maybe leave the room or I m going to self-regulate, or I m going to have a mantra for myself.
3
SPEAKER_02
That s what I m going to do.
3
SPEAKER_02
They would argue about this.
3
SPEAKER_02
And
3
SPEAKER_02
what would happen is she would, um, you know, we had to get to sort of what was underneath this.
3
SPEAKER_02
And she finally discovered it s like, I need more affirmation.
3
SPEAKER_02
I need more like, just flirt with me during the day.
3
SPEAKER_02
Or, you know, and he said, I need that too.
3
SPEAKER_02
And so we gave them this homework assignment where
3
SPEAKER_02
they just had to do one very subtle flirtation, you know, just once a day.
3
SPEAKER_02
And she left a little note on the bathroom mirror and he said, oh my God, that made me feel the whole day.
3
SPEAKER_02
I was so excited.
3
SPEAKER_02
It is these tiny things.
3
SPEAKER_02
And so then she was less triggered when like food would come up because he was so much about like, you look beautiful.
3
SPEAKER_02
And she said, you always say, when I get my eyebrows done, you re like, dang.
3
SPEAKER_02
And she s like, why won t you do that with other things?
3
SPEAKER_02
I don t want to have to get my eyebrows done.
3
SPEAKER_02
Right.
3
SPEAKER_02
And he was like, Oh my God, I think you re so beautiful.
3
SPEAKER_02
I should be saying that more.
3
SPEAKER_02
So it just, it just realizing, you know, what is the trigger really about?
3
SPEAKER_02
And then how can you as a partner support that?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I just want to reemphasize that point.
3
SPEAKER_00
If anyone missed it, it s like boundaries are not to control other people s actions towards you.
3
SPEAKER_00
They re to control your own actions based on what others do to you.
3
SPEAKER_02
Right.
3
SPEAKER_02
And the important part about boundaries is maintenance, by the way.
3
SPEAKER_02
So it s not just one time.
3
SPEAKER_02
It s, let s say that you say to someone, you know, if you, um, if you yell at me, if you raise your voice, I m going to end the conversation.
3
SPEAKER_02
We had this on the podcast with someone else.
3
SPEAKER_02
A father was kept talking to his daughter about when are you going to get married?
3
SPEAKER_02
When are you and your boyfriend going to get married?
3
SPEAKER_02
And she said to him, if you bring that up,
3
SPEAKER_02
I m going to end the conversation.
3
SPEAKER_02
I m going to leave the room because I want to have fun with you when I m with you.
3
SPEAKER_02
And this just makes it really stressful.
3
SPEAKER_02
And so every time it had to be in every time he mentions that you say, Dad, just reminder, we ll talk another time.
3
SPEAKER_02
And if you don t do that, if you don t do it consistently, like let s say that you do it 10 times within one time, you like let that conversation continue.
3
SPEAKER_02
The person thinks, oh, I can still talk about this because they re not going to leave the room.
3
SPEAKER_02
They re not going to end the conversation.
3
SPEAKER_02
So again, it s what you do.
3
SPEAKER_02
You have to hold the boundary every single time for yourself.
3
SPEAKER_02
And the other person is going to realize at a certain point, if I want to be in that person s presence, I can t bring this up because every single time they re going to leave.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I think that s the mistake we make.
3
SPEAKER_00
We break our own boundaries in order to show our care or to be seen as a good person or whatever it may be.
3
SPEAKER_00
But that ends up setting us up for more failure because now that person thinks they can cross the boundaries
4
SPEAKER_00
well because we re doing it anyway.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
4
SPEAKER_00
Boundaries are just such a fascinating thing because I find them so useful in so many areas of my life.
4
SPEAKER_00
But I think you just hit the nail on the head that it s our own letting our guard down about our own boundaries that actually allows people to think they can break them anyway.
4
SPEAKER_00
it s not about them breaking them down like if you stay pretty strong on that i mean if i mean people can still do what they want but at least you ll know where you stand with them i remember a small example of what you just said i remember whenever i d go back to london because i like to see my family there there d be certain members of my family who d always say to me oh you re only back for 30 days
4
SPEAKER_00
And then I d see them the week after and they d be like, oh, you only got 21 days left.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I d just be like, guys, I m back for 30 days.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I had to draw a boundary around just, and it sounds so small and silly, but it isn t because I didn t like hearing that because I was like, let s just be really grateful for this present moment.
4
SPEAKER_00
Like, let s have the best time we re together right now.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I don t want to sit here and think about how many days I have left.
4
SPEAKER_00
Again, it can be so small, but it can be so important to you.
4
SPEAKER_00
But I have to honor that.
4
SPEAKER_00
Okay, if you bring up time again, then X, Y, Z is going to happen or whatever it may be.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
And the other thing about boundaries is that people think that boundaries separate you.
4
SPEAKER_01
The point of the boundary is to bring you closer.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s, I want to be in relationship with you, but we need to have these boundaries.
4
SPEAKER_01
I remember somebody wrote into the column, a parent wrote in and said,
4
SPEAKER_01
my daughter has all these boundaries about how many times I call her during the day.
4
SPEAKER_01
And she said, you know, I want, I m setting a boundary.
4
SPEAKER_01
And he wrote in and said, I don t want to have a boundary relationship.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I wrote back and I said, every relationship is a boundary relationship.
4
SPEAKER_01
You can t just do whatever you want in a relationship.
4
SPEAKER_01
All relationships have boundaries.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s like, it s kind of like the difference between being in an ocean with no boundaries or being in a fishbowl where the boundaries are too tight and people can t live.
4
SPEAKER_01
You want to be in an aquarium in relationship.
4
SPEAKER_01
Right?
4
SPEAKER_01
So there s enough room for each person to kind of have their space, but it s not so constrained that like everybody s walking on eggshells and it s not so open like an ocean where there s, you can just do whatever you want.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
Well said.
4
SPEAKER_00
I like that analogy.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I think that the important thing about the boundary is when you set the boundary, it s saying, I want to be closer to you.
4
SPEAKER_01
I want to be in relationship with you.
4
SPEAKER_01
But if you keep doing that, it s going to push me away.
4
SPEAKER_01
So please don t mention this, right?
4
SPEAKER_01
Don t criticize me.
4
SPEAKER_01
Don t talk about whether I m married because that s going to make me go farther away.
4
SPEAKER_01
I want to be close to you.
4
SPEAKER_00
And actually that is a sign of closeness because if someone actually learns about your boundaries, they actually are learning about some of the most intimate details about you.
4
SPEAKER_00
Because if you re saying this triggers me or this makes me feel upset or this really gets to me, you re actually displaying vulnerably
4
SPEAKER_00
something that s so significant and meaningful to you.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so it should bring you closer to someone else.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s like that person actually values and respects you so much to actually open up and share with you a weakness or a pain point.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
I saw some friends on the podcast we were doing and they came together and they were saying like, I set some boundaries and the other person thinks that I don t want to be friends.
4
SPEAKER_01
And no, what you re saying is I want this friend.
4
SPEAKER_01
They d been friends since childhood and things change, things evolve as you move into adulthood and you move into family life and your different stages of life.
4
SPEAKER_01
whatever they might be.
4
SPEAKER_01
And this person was like, I am doing this because our friendship matters to me.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s important.
4
SPEAKER_01
And once the other friend heard that, the boundaries were fine.
4
SPEAKER_01
It was that this person thought, oh, you re trying to dump me.
4
SPEAKER_01
And she s saying, no, I m doing the opposite.
4
SPEAKER_01
I m trying to keep our friendship alive.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_02
A new season of Bridgerton is here.
4
SPEAKER_02
And with it, a new season of Bridgerton, the official podcast.
4
SPEAKER_02
I m your host, Gabrielle Collins.
4
SPEAKER_02
And this season, we are bringing fans even deeper into the ton.
4
SPEAKER_02
Colin Bridgerton has returned from his travels abroad.
4
SPEAKER_02
Is Betrothal written in the stars for the eligible bachelor?
4
SPEAKER_02
Meanwhile, the ton is reverberating with speculation of who holds Lady Whistledown s pen.
4
SPEAKER_02
We re discussing it all.
4
SPEAKER_02
I sit down with Nicola Coughlin, Luke Newton, Shonda Rhimes, and more to offer an exclusive peek behind the scenes of each episode of the new season.
4
SPEAKER_02
Watch season three of the Shondaland series on Netflix.
4
SPEAKER_02
Then fall in love all over again by listening to Bridgerton, the official podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
4
SPEAKER_02
Subscribe to catch a new episode every Thursday.
4
SPEAKER_03
Hey everyone, this is Molly and Matt and we re the hosts of Grown Up Stuff How to Adult, a podcast from Ruby Studio and iHeart Podcasts.
4
SPEAKER_04
It s a show dedicated to helping you figure out the trickiest parts of adulting.
4
SPEAKER_03
Like how to start planning for retirement, creating a healthy skincare routine, understanding when and how much to tip someone, and so much more.
4
SPEAKER_04
We re back with season two of the podcast, which means more opportunities to glow up and become a more responsible and better adult, one life lesson at a time.
4
SPEAKER_03
And let me just tell you, this show is just as much for us as it is for you.
4
SPEAKER_03
So let s figure this stuff out together.
4
SPEAKER_03
This season, we re going to talk about whether or not we re financially and emotionally ready for dog ownership.
4
SPEAKER_04
We re going to figure out the benefits of a high yield savings account.
4
SPEAKER_03
And what exactly are the duties of being a member of the wedding party?
4
SPEAKER_04
All that plus so much more.
4
SPEAKER_03
Let s learn about all of it and then some.
4
SPEAKER_03
Listen to Grown Up Stuff How to Adult on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
4
SPEAKER_05
Guess what, Bango?
4
SPEAKER_05
What s up, Will?
4
SPEAKER_05
So iHeart is giving us a whole minute to promote our podcast, Part-Time Genius.
4
SPEAKER_06
I know, that s why I spent my whole week composing a haiku for the occasion.
4
SPEAKER_06
It s about my emotional journey in podcasting over the last seven years, and it s called Earthquake House.
4
SPEAKER_05
Mango, I m going to cut you off right there.
4
SPEAKER_06
Why don t we just tell people about our show instead?
4
SPEAKER_06
Yeah, that s a better idea.
4
SPEAKER_06
So every week on Part-Time Genius, we feed our curiosity by answering the world s most important questions.
4
SPEAKER_06
Things like, when did America start dialing 911?
4
SPEAKER_06
Is William Shatner s best acting work in Esperanto?
4
SPEAKER_06
Also, what happened to Esperanto?
4
SPEAKER_05
Plus, we cover questions like how Chinese is your Chinese food?
4
SPEAKER_05
How do dollar stores stay in business?
4
SPEAKER_05
And of course, is there an Illuminati of cheese?
4
SPEAKER_06
There absolutely is.
4
SPEAKER_06
And we are risking our lives by talking about it.
4
SPEAKER_06
But if you love mind-blowing facts, incredible history, and really bad jokes, make your brains happy and tune in to Part-Time Genius.
4
SPEAKER_05
Listen to Part-Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I think that s part of the communication.
4
SPEAKER_00
I feel like
4
SPEAKER_00
there s a need for whoever you are, if you re the person in the relationship that s almost, to some degree, guiding this conversation, it s important for you to clarify why you re setting the boundary.
4
SPEAKER_00
I think often we just say, this is what I want to do, and we kind of announce it.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it s more of an announcement than it is a setting of a boundary.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it s so much more powerful when someone says to you, hey, I actually really value our relationship.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I think this is going to bring us closer.
4
SPEAKER_00
And that s why I m actually being really vulnerable with you.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I m sharing with you, this is how I feel when you do this.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it would mean the world to me if we were able to shift this or this is how I m probably going to behave if this happens.
4
SPEAKER_00
But that kind of casing that sometimes our communication needs to be in, it demands a lot of us.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I get this feedback from a lot of people when we re talking to them on the podcast and through my books and everything is that people feel like
4
SPEAKER_00
They re often the one carrying the torch to help this maturity develop in a relationship.
4
SPEAKER_00
And a lot of people are quite exhausted by it.
4
SPEAKER_00
They re like, well, gosh, I m like trying to help us set boundaries.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m the one like setting agreements.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m the one who s like encouraging us to be positive.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it can get really exhausting carrying the torch.
4
SPEAKER_00
what do you say to people who feel that way right now, where they re like, you know what, Laurie, I m trying to be curious with my partner, I m trying to do this, I m with my friends, I m like the one setting up this, but like, I m exhausted now, and so I don t know how long I can do it for, and I just want them to step up.
4
SPEAKER_01
So often what we ll see is if that person will come to couples therapy, we ll find out either the person doesn t want to step up, and you keep asking them to do something they are not interested in doing,
4
SPEAKER_01
And so that just, you know, so, so the question I would ask the person who s feels like they re holding the burden of it all is, why are you trying so hard?
4
SPEAKER_01
Why are you in this?
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, like what, what is, how is this serving you?
4
SPEAKER_01
Because this is so hard.
4
SPEAKER_01
You re not happy.
4
SPEAKER_01
Why are you, why do you remain at, why are you trying to get this person to do something?
4
SPEAKER_01
Why don t you find someone who is willing and interested in the kinds of things that you re interested in, in a relationship.
4
SPEAKER_01
And so then there s some, usually some old stuff there about, you know, the, what we call repetition compulsion, which is trying to, you find someone who is unwilling to give you what you need or want, which is maybe some old stuff.
4
SPEAKER_01
And then you think like, I m going to do it with this person because this time I ll win.
5
SPEAKER_01
This time I can make it happen.
5
SPEAKER_01
I couldn t make it happen when I was a child, but this time I ll win. 
5
SPEAKER_01
Except you won t win.
5
SPEAKER_01
It doesn t happen that way.
5
SPEAKER_01
The way you win is you let go of that, you grieve what you didn t get, and then you go find it in someone without trying to change that.
5
SPEAKER_01
So you re not trying to win anything, it s already there.
5
SPEAKER_01
But another reason, another thing that might happen is this couple comes to couples therapy and the person says, I m not showing up because the other person s so controlling.
5
SPEAKER_01
This person has tried to control everything.
5
SPEAKER_01
They re trying to set every rule.
5
SPEAKER_01
They re trying to manage every aspect of our lives.
5
SPEAKER_01
And there s no room for me and my thoughts and how I want things to go.
5
SPEAKER_01
And when I say, I want this, they say, no, you re wrong.
5
SPEAKER_01
No, it can t be that way.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s my way.
5
SPEAKER_01
This is the way this is.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m the healthy person.
5
SPEAKER_01
You re the not healthy person.
5
SPEAKER_01
And that doesn t feel good either.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
It requires so much self-excavation to just see whether we re being that person or we can often so get lost in our holier than thou and kind of this feeling of like, oh, I m so emotionally mature and I m so self-aware and I m doing the work and I know the language and all of a sudden, actually we re
5
SPEAKER_00
We re being so evangelical that the person that we re speaking to is kind of feeling like they have no say or no impact or no involvement.
5
SPEAKER_00
One of the scenarios that came up in this conversation while we were preparing for this podcast was this couple there,
5
SPEAKER_00
the woman earns more than the man.
5
SPEAKER_00
And she doesn t have an issue with it.
5
SPEAKER_00
She s very comfortable with it.
5
SPEAKER_00
She didn t care.
5
SPEAKER_00
That wasn t a big priority for her.
5
SPEAKER_00
It wasn t a deal breaker for her, but it s really triggering to him.
5
SPEAKER_00
And he s uncomfortable with that.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so if the topic of money comes up or budgeting comes up, he often tries to, yeah, he gets very uncomfortable about it.
5
SPEAKER_00
It can make him angry.
5
SPEAKER_00
It can make him upset.
5
SPEAKER_00
she s trying to figure out how does she help him become more confident and comfortable and happy about who he is and not feel this pressure that he feels potentially coming from his family or his upbringing as well.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, this would be a great thing for them to talk about in couples therapy and really get it sort of what does money represent to them?
5
SPEAKER_01
Does it represent self-esteem, acceptance, love, power, lack of power?
5
SPEAKER_01
Money represents so many things.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think people when they talk about money, if they talk about money in their relationships, it s such a sensitive topic.
5
SPEAKER_01
they tend to talk about it on the content level.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like, let s make a budget.
5
SPEAKER_01
Or why did you spend money on that?
5
SPEAKER_01
Right?
5
SPEAKER_01
And they re not really talking about how do we both feel about money?
5
SPEAKER_01
What was money like in our households when we grew up?
5
SPEAKER_01
What were the messages that we got around money?
5
SPEAKER_01
Some people got really mixed messages.
5
SPEAKER_01
You know, money is good.
5
SPEAKER_01
Money is bad.
5
SPEAKER_01
We have money.
5
SPEAKER_01
We don t have money.
5
SPEAKER_01
Value judgments.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s okay to spend money on this, but not on this.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so you bring all of that into your relationship and then the gender roles, of course.
5
SPEAKER_01
Right.
5
SPEAKER_01
So what does that represent?
5
SPEAKER_01
What kind of family did you grow up in, in terms of how they thought about gender and power and money and how that changes with culture, with the kind of maybe egalitarian marriage that you want.
5
SPEAKER_01
Those are all conversations they need to have.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
Not about let s sit down and make a budget, but about all the questions that I was just bringing up.
5
SPEAKER_00
Those are such great questions and I know that they work because me and my wife have sat down and looked at that through our marriage and we ve had so many questions about that because we both came from very different financial setups and our relationship with money was very, very different.
5
SPEAKER_00
I started working very, very young.
5
SPEAKER_00
My wife started working while she was at college and after.
5
SPEAKER_00
And just as time grew and our lifestyle changed and things changed, there were so many conversations we had to always reset as well.
5
SPEAKER_00
It wasn t just like, oh, we ve solved it now.
5
SPEAKER_00
We don t talk about money anymore.
5
SPEAKER_00
And we ve had to almost reevaluate and rethink that topic so many times, depending on how many changes there are.
5
SPEAKER_00
But I find that those are the questions that I find people avoiding.
5
SPEAKER_00
Or when they do talk about it, it s always a full-blown argument.
5
SPEAKER_00
So it s like you said, it s either about budgeting, if they talk about it in a healthy way, or like at least a practical way is probably a better word.
5
SPEAKER_00
Or we don t talk about it because you re like so scared to mention it because when you do, it turns into a full-blown argument.
5
SPEAKER_00
And now we re arguing about not even money, we re arguing about something else.
5
SPEAKER_00
I want to help people have the tools to,
5
SPEAKER_00
start difficult conversations with people in their life.
5
SPEAKER_00
It could be a mom, it could be a dad, it could be, you know, I feel like all of us avoid, we avoid discomfort in our lives and uncomfortable conversations are one of the biggest ones, whether it s when you re firing someone, when you re giving feedback to someone, when you re trying to be direct with someone, these are such challenging things to do.
5
SPEAKER_00
How do we sit in the discomfort or how do we prepare for uncomfortable conversations
5
SPEAKER_00
to help them go better.
5
SPEAKER_01
First of all, I think that people are worried that somehow they re being unkind by bringing something up that s uncomfortable.
5
SPEAKER_01
The kindest thing you can do is to have a conversation with somebody that is real and genuine and authentic.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think that the first, the way you start that is you start it with yourself.
5
SPEAKER_01
So before you even get to the other person, you want to be able to say to them, to say to yourself, I m being really kind and I m remembering their humanity.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I m going to have this conversation in an open, generous, curious way.
5
SPEAKER_01
So I m not here to set my agenda necessarily.
5
SPEAKER_01
I m here to be curious about their experience so we together can come to some kind of understanding about each other that we didn t have before.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I think that s the framework that you come into any hard conversation with.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it s almost like, it again comes back down to what we re discussing here today.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s like framing a conversation.
5
SPEAKER_00
I think we get so lost in like, what are we trying to solve?
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
And we re trying to be very logical.
5
SPEAKER_00
And actually it s like, we ll know framing the conversation in the emotion of understanding how people feel about things and where it comes from and what this could lead to is so much more important than actually solving the problem.
5
SPEAKER_01
Right.
5
SPEAKER_01
And knowing that this is going to be a dialogue, not a monologue.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think that we re like, I have something important to say, and you re going to deliver whatever you re going to deliver to them.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s not a monologue.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s not, I m coming to deliver something.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s, I m coming to bring up a topic and I want to hear where the other person is coming from.
5
SPEAKER_01
And you might want to ask them first, like, Hey, I know that money has been kind of stressful for us.
5
SPEAKER_01
Can we talk a little bit about it?
5
SPEAKER_01
I m curious to hear more about,
5
SPEAKER_01
what money is, what it means to you, what it was like growing up.
5
SPEAKER_01
I want to share that with you about what it means to me, what it was like for me growing up.
5
SPEAKER_01
And you could have a really beautiful conversation.
5
SPEAKER_01
The other thing is, if it s a romantic relationship, hold hands.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s really hard to argue.
5
SPEAKER_01
It actually calms your nervous systems.
5
SPEAKER_01
Just hold hands as you re having the conversation.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s so lovely.
5
SPEAKER_01
It opens people up to be more vulnerable.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, no, I love this advice and I really hope everyone who s listening or watching, you re gonna try and practice some of these.
5
SPEAKER_00
They re so subtle and they re such small insights, but they make such a big difference because it can be a game changer when you approach the same conversation in a completely different way and it can transform the trajectory of your relationship with an individual because they have so much more respect for how you handled it too.
5
SPEAKER_01
We just did a podcast episode with a mother and daughter.
5
SPEAKER_01
They ve been having the same fight for 25 years.
5
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
5
SPEAKER_01
And they came on the podcast and they said, we have never talked about it this way.
5
SPEAKER_01
And it s not because we did something, you know, like unheard of.
5
SPEAKER_01
It was just because they had never been taught
5
SPEAKER_01
to talk about, they ve been having literally the same conversation or lack of conversation when, you know, one person would shut the other person out, usually the daughter shutting the mother out.
5
SPEAKER_01
And they just never talked about it in this other way.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I think so many people think, oh, we have a problem and it s not fixable.
5
SPEAKER_01
Many problems are so fixable.
5
SPEAKER_01
You can heal a lot of things, maybe not in exactly the way you want, but certainly to have more of a relationship than you were ever, than you ever thought possible.
5
SPEAKER_00
All right, I ve got so many more for you.
5
SPEAKER_00
I hope you re having fun, Laurie.
5
SPEAKER_00
Sure, yeah, I love talking about all this stuff.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s so fascinating to just dive into these real scenarios that all of you have sent in.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I want to give a big thank you to everyone who on Instagram sent me all of these incredible notes for this episode.
5
SPEAKER_00
There s a few more here that I really want to get to.
5
SPEAKER_00
So, okay, this one s a good one because it kind of relates to something we discussed earlier, but it s a more specific question on
5
SPEAKER_00
When in your mind do you know when you re settling or you re not settling?
5
SPEAKER_00
How do you know?
5
SPEAKER_01
Um, I think if you re asking yourself that question, that s, that s a really important sign.
5
SPEAKER_01
Um, but I, I think you need to get clear is, is this something culturally, like the culture has told me that I need to be with someone like this.
5
SPEAKER_01
Um, and whether that s like the greater culture,
6
SPEAKER_03
your specific culture that you grew up in or your family culture, whose voice is it?
6
SPEAKER_03
I think that s really important that as adults, sometimes we can t tease out our own voice from the voices of people who raised us or the culture even.
6
SPEAKER_03
So I think that s an important question.
6
SPEAKER_03
I also think the question is, are they, you know, when we think about what compromises we have to make with another person, we don t tend to think about what compromises somebody has to make to be with us.
6
SPEAKER_03
Which is a really important point.
6
SPEAKER_03
It s not like, it s not like, you know, I think people treat dating like shopping.
6
SPEAKER_03
Like I want this, I m going to go find this.
6
SPEAKER_03
And it s not like the clothes when you re shopping are going to be like, I don t think you re going to look good in that.
6
SPEAKER_03
Or I d rather be with someone who looks differently.
6
SPEAKER_03
Like the clothes are not judging you.
6
SPEAKER_03
Right.
6
SPEAKER_03
But the thing is like when you re going into a relationship with going back to the, you know, we can t order up people a la carte, they can t order up you a la carte either.
6
SPEAKER_03
And we have this weird notion in our culture that like love is loving all the annoying things about me too.
6
SPEAKER_03
No, people are not going to, they re going to love you even though you have these annoying things.
6
SPEAKER_03
But that doesn t mean they re going to love the annoying things.
6
SPEAKER_01
Of course not.
6
SPEAKER_03
So we have this weird idea that this unconditional love, and it s just, they misuse that term.
6
SPEAKER_03
So I think we have to remember that as we are thinking about this whole human being, this person is choosing us with all of our annoying things, our quirks, maybe our past that we haven t really worked through, that we re still working through.
6
SPEAKER_03
And we have this idea that I m shopping for someone.
6
SPEAKER_03
You re not shopping for someone.
6
SPEAKER_03
It s how do I feel with this person?
6
SPEAKER_03
That is the most important question you can ask.
6
SPEAKER_03
How do I feel when I m with this person?
6
SPEAKER_03
And if you feel you enjoy their company, you feel heard, you feel understood, you feel safe, you re having fun,
6
SPEAKER_03
you re not settling.
6
SPEAKER_03
All the rest is just noise.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
I really like those two really powerful points.
6
SPEAKER_01
I think so many of our definitions of the perfect partner, settling, you know, whatever it may be, comes from a societal parental impact.
6
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so what do my friends think of him or how they react?
6
SPEAKER_01
Oh no, they re going to know I m settling.
6
SPEAKER_01
And it s like, well, no, was that your definition of what a good partner was?
6
SPEAKER_01
And the second point that you made there that I love, because I do it all the time, whenever I m sitting there in my head and I m thinking, God, I ve made so many sacrifices for my wife, I ve done this or that, I come up with a list of hers in my head and I m like, oh, she s made so many.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like, it s such a great activity to do that.
6
SPEAKER_01
When I think about, I often ask people to zoom out.
6
SPEAKER_01
and say, you may think, like maybe someone s sitting there going, I do everything financially for a relationship, or I do everything physically for this relationship.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like I get the groceries, I do the house cleaning, whatever it may be.
6
SPEAKER_01
I always ask people to zoom out and go, look at your life physically, financially, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually.
6
SPEAKER_01
Okay, if you re making all the sacrifices across all five of those, there s something really important to look at.
6
SPEAKER_01
But more often than not, when people zoom out, they go, oh, actually, you re right.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like, I pick up the slack here and they pick up the slack there.
6
SPEAKER_01
And there s a bit of give and take.
6
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_03
And, and I would say also one exercise to do is describe the relationship from their perspective.
6
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_03
Right.
6
SPEAKER_03
Like what are they putting up with really?
6
SPEAKER_03
If they were to, if they were to really talk about, you know, the relationship from their perspective, there would be all these great things and there would be all the sacrifices they re making too.
6
SPEAKER_03
And sometimes we forget about that.
6
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely.
6
SPEAKER_01
All right.
6
SPEAKER_01
I like this one.
6
SPEAKER_01
So there s this person who was let go from their job and decided
6
SPEAKER_01
that she may want to get into comedy because she always had a dream of being a comedian, but doesn t want to feel like she is taking a step back into the service industry in order to pursue her goals that may be very far to reach.
6
SPEAKER_01
She has some trouble with structure and facing the unknown of it all.
6
SPEAKER_01
How do you suggest she structures herself and gives herself tangible benchmarks?
6
SPEAKER_03
I think that people make this binary.
6
SPEAKER_03
I m either going to pursue my dream and give up everything else, or I m not going to pursue my dream.
6
SPEAKER_03
And I always say to people, you can have two things going at once.
6
SPEAKER_03
It s a lot safer to say, I m going to try comedy and I m going to put everything I have into it, but I m also not going to maybe leave my job yet.
6
SPEAKER_03
And so I can see whether this really works for me or not before I give up this other thing.
6
SPEAKER_03
So it doesn t have to be so binary.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I agree with that.
6
SPEAKER_01
I think that, I think too often we make that move too quick.
6
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
If someone comes up to me and goes, Jared, just listen to your podcast and I ve decided to make this big switch.
6
SPEAKER_01
I m like, oh, I don t think I said that.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like, please don t do that.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like, you know, that s, that s definitely not what I m encouraging.
6
SPEAKER_01
If anything, I m encouraging this.
6
SPEAKER_01
journey of learning about something you love first, experimenting, maybe interning, apprenticeships, shadowing, watch how the job s actually done.
6
SPEAKER_01
Like I m so much more into an incremental approach to change as opposed to thinking that this big all-in approach is going to suddenly deliver some miraculous reward.
6
SPEAKER_01
If anything, if you go slower, you ll learn more.
6
SPEAKER_01
And then when you do make the big jump, it will actually more likely be more successful.
6
SPEAKER_03
That s right.
6
SPEAKER_03
And I think the other question to ask is, am I moving towards something or am I trying to escape from something?
6
SPEAKER_03
Because sometimes people will just jump into something very impulsively because they want to get out of their situation and they don t do well with uncertainty because most people don t.
6
SPEAKER_03
So they want an answer.
6
SPEAKER_03
So they feel like I can t just leave this other thing that I know is making me unhappy.
6
SPEAKER_03
I don t want to be a lawyer anymore.
6
SPEAKER_03
I don t want to do this job anymore, but I don t know what else to do.
6
SPEAKER_03
So I m going to do this other thing, but you re not even sure you want to do the other thing yet.
6
SPEAKER_03
So are you escaping or are you moving toward?
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, definitely.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I think when we re trying to escape too soon.
6
SPEAKER_03
Yes.
6
SPEAKER_03
Without thinking it through.
6
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
6
SPEAKER_01
And that s actually been one of the biggest things that I ve actually been talking about a lot lately, because I think it s impacted me so much in my life.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s almost like if you don t like where you are, if you can figure out a way to learn from it,
6
SPEAKER_01
And when I say learn from it, I don t mean some magical life lesson.
6
SPEAKER_01
I mean like thinking about what are the practical lessons I could learn here?
6
SPEAKER_01
What are the things I can get curious about?
6
SPEAKER_01
Sure, I don t like the setup, I don t like my manager, but maybe there s something here that s actually gonna benefit me in the future.
6
SPEAKER_01
All of a sudden, I m not saying that becomes the best job you ve ever had, but it doesn t feel as painful while you build the next step.
6
SPEAKER_01
Whereas this desire to just rush out of pain, or again, pain is maybe a strong word, but rush out of,
6
SPEAKER_01
a place that you want to escape from, you actually might fall into the same thing again in another way, which we again do in relationships as well.
6
SPEAKER_03
We do that all the time.
6
SPEAKER_03
Somebody is like, I m going to leave this relationship.
6
SPEAKER_03
And then, oh, but I fell in love with this other person.
6
SPEAKER_03
Maybe you do need to leave that relationship, but why don t you take a beat?
6
SPEAKER_03
Why don t you see, are you just going to another person and you re going to repeat all the same things in this other relationship?
6
SPEAKER_03
Or do you want to understand more about, do I understand what happened in this relationship, why it didn t work?
6
SPEAKER_03
And then now I can leave in a way that feels good.
6
SPEAKER_03
Or maybe I was wrong and maybe there actually was something great here, but there was a problem that I wasn t willing to face in this relationship.
6
SPEAKER_00
When the Taliban banned music in Afghanistan, millions were plunged into silence.
6
SPEAKER_00
Radios were smashed, cassettes burned.
6
SPEAKER_00
You could be beaten or jailed or killed for breaking the rules.
6
SPEAKER_00
And yet, Afghans did it anyway.
6
SPEAKER_00
This is the story of how a group of people brought music back to Afghanistan by creating their own version of American Idol.
6
SPEAKER_00
The danger they endured.
6
SPEAKER_01
They said my head should be cut off.
6
SPEAKER_00
The joy they brought to the nation.
6
SPEAKER_03
You re free completely.
6
SPEAKER_03
No one is there to destroy you.
6
SPEAKER_00
I m John Legend.
6
SPEAKER_00
Listen to Afghan Star on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
6
SPEAKER_01
I want to ask you this question because obviously we re talking today about your beautiful new journal that assists, maybe you should talk to someone, which is the book that I interviewed you about a couple of years ago, which is such a phenomenal book.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s helped so many people.
6
SPEAKER_01
How and why is journaling valuable to everything we re discussing today?
6
SPEAKER_03
I think that one of the things that happens when you journal is you go into this space that you don t go into when you re not writing it down.
6
SPEAKER_03
When you actually can see something, it s very different from thinking it.
6
SPEAKER_03
Our thoughts are fleeting.
6
SPEAKER_03
They just move around.
6
SPEAKER_03
They re very disorganized.
6
SPEAKER_03
And the thing about journaling is no one s judging it.
6
SPEAKER_03
No one s seeing it.
6
SPEAKER_03
It s just for you.
6
SPEAKER_03
I, you know, I used to think it s funny because I put out this journal, but I used to not want to journal.
6
SPEAKER_03
because I would think, oh, it s a chore and I m going to have to sit down and it s going to have what if, you know, I don t know what to say, or I don t really have anything to say.
6
SPEAKER_03
And what the way that I ve structured this journal is there s a prompt that comes from maybe you should talk to someone just
7
SPEAKER_00
to give you a little bit of structure, but it follows you through the 52 weeks of the year, like a therapy session.
7
SPEAKER_00
And we always say that the work of most of the work of therapy happens outside the therapy room.
7
SPEAKER_00
So people think I m going to come to therapy.
7
SPEAKER_00
I m going to have all these insights and that s my therapy.
7
SPEAKER_00
No.
7
SPEAKER_00
you re going to, if you don t use what you learn in therapy and you don t put it into action during the week, then the insight is useless.
7
SPEAKER_00
So someone might say, oh, I got into that fight with my partner again, and now I understand why.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I ll say, well, that s great, but did you do something different?
7
SPEAKER_00
Well, no, but okay.
7
SPEAKER_00
Well, good first step, understanding why, but now you need to do something different.
7
SPEAKER_00
So when you reflect every day during the week, then you say, what am I doing with this bit of insight?
7
SPEAKER_00
So the prompt will maybe inspire some kind of insight into your life.
7
SPEAKER_00
And then what, how do you noodle that around during the week?
7
SPEAKER_00
And you can watch your progression because you ve written it down.
7
SPEAKER_00
And what I love about the doing a journal for a year is that you can look at like three months ago, I thought this, but look how I m handling this situation now.
7
SPEAKER_00
And it just takes five minutes.
7
SPEAKER_00
A lot of people will wake up in the morning and journal just to clear their minds.
7
SPEAKER_00
Many of us will wake up and the first thing we do is we look at our phones and already we re stressed.
7
SPEAKER_00
And already we re thinking about, oh, I didn t do this or I m behind already.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s not a good way to start your day.
7
SPEAKER_00
I love taking five minutes in the morning to just write down so that then it s out there and I don t have to sit with it
7
SPEAKER_00
all day long.
7
SPEAKER_00
A lot of people also will do it right before bed because you know how sometimes we ll just think all these thoughts before bed and it keeps you up at night and you can t sleep.
7
SPEAKER_00
You journal before bed and now you feel like, Oh, I m really, I m all cleared out.
7
SPEAKER_00
I feel good.
7
SPEAKER_00
So I think that journaling is really valuable.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I think it reminds me of something that we often say in relationships that it s easy to notice the person who gets angry in a relationship and harder to notice the person who smiles all the time.
7
SPEAKER_00
So when people say like, Oh, my partner s angry all the time.
7
SPEAKER_00
And it s like, well, because you re ignoring that person s holding the anger for both of you.
7
SPEAKER_00
If you journal, you might notice if you re the person who smiles all the time, that maybe you have some anger too, or maybe you have trouble bringing something up.
7
SPEAKER_00
And if you re a really avoidant person, like the person who does smile all the time, it s a good thing to put it down in a journal.
7
SPEAKER_00
Cause then you say, Oh wait, there are things that I want to bring up and let me figure out what to do with them.
7
SPEAKER_00
Or if you re the person who s angry and is holding the anger for both of you, you might start to notice through journaling, I m not, it s not my job.
7
SPEAKER_00
Why am I angry all the time?
7
SPEAKER_00
If this person is not willing to have any of these conversations, this person s stonewalling me.
7
SPEAKER_00
So you discover a lot about yourself and your patterns when you have this space that you can be vulnerable in that no one s judging.
7
SPEAKER_01
To add to that, one of the things that I think that s so special about journaling is that
7
SPEAKER_01
it s so much easier to measure physical change if you re trying to put on weight, lose weight, if you re trying to build muscle, you know, whatever it may be, you can measure that and there s a number to it.
7
SPEAKER_01
And I found that for me, journaling has always been a great way of looking back a week ago, a month ago, a year ago and going,
7
SPEAKER_01
What was I thinking about then?
7
SPEAKER_01
Where was I in my headspace?
7
SPEAKER_01
What was I worried about?
7
SPEAKER_01
And often I ve found when I ve gone and done that, you can actually see growth in the same way as having like a marker.
7
SPEAKER_01
And if you re not journaling every day, you kind of don t know whether you re moving forward or backward because you don t have something to think about.
7
SPEAKER_01
You just have your feeling in the moment.
7
SPEAKER_01
Whereas when you look back and you think, wow, five years ago,
7
SPEAKER_01
I can t believe I used to worry about that exam or that interview or that, whatever it may have been.
7
SPEAKER_01
And now I m like, I wouldn t be worried about that at all.
7
SPEAKER_01
Things have changed.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so to me, it s a great way of monitoring and measuring growth.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_00
And I think that change is really hard.
7
SPEAKER_00
This is why new year s resolutions tend not to work out for people a lot of the time.
7
SPEAKER_00
And you can see when you journal, I talk in the book, maybe you should talk to someone about the stages of change and you can see them happen.
7
SPEAKER_00
So pre-contemplation is you don t even know that you re thinking about making a change.
7
SPEAKER_00
So that s when you re kind of in denial in your journal.
7
SPEAKER_00
Like,
7
SPEAKER_00
Oh no, this isn t really happening.
7
SPEAKER_00
And you see yourself kind of justify or rationalize things that you know just are not right.
7
SPEAKER_00
And then contemplation is, you know, you need to make a change, but you re not ready yet.
7
SPEAKER_00
So now you re getting more real with yourself.
7
SPEAKER_00
That s usually when people come to therapy at the contemplation, but you can see it in the journal.
7
SPEAKER_00
Oh, now I m really getting out of denial.
7
SPEAKER_00
And then there s preparation where you re sort of saying, how do I prepare to make this change?
7
SPEAKER_00
What steps do I need to take?
7
SPEAKER_00
Whether I want to leave this relationship or I want to get into a relationship and put myself out there more, or I want to, you know, I want to go after some dream or I want to set a boundary.
7
SPEAKER_00
So how am I preparing for this?
7
SPEAKER_00
And then action is when you actually make the change, but that s not the last step.
7
SPEAKER_00
The last step is maintenance.
7
SPEAKER_00
And that s the most important change.
7
SPEAKER_00
And that doesn t mean I have to maintain the change and be perfect.
7
SPEAKER_00
it means that I m going to slip back, like in chutes and ladders, right?
7
SPEAKER_00
So it s like, yes, I will, there ll be, oh, I broke up with that person, but no, I called them.
7
SPEAKER_00
I didn t mean to call them.
7
SPEAKER_00
That doesn t mean you failed.
7
SPEAKER_00
That just means you re human.
7
SPEAKER_00
And so how can you show yourself, and you can do this in your journal, how can you write something to yourself that s very compassionate, but also holding yourself accountable?
7
SPEAKER_00
So, and how you can look in your journal about how do I talk to myself?
7
SPEAKER_00
You know, do I beat myself up all the time?
7
SPEAKER_00
Am I a bully to myself?
7
SPEAKER_00
Or can I be compassionate with myself?
7
SPEAKER_00
Because that will actually help me to be accountable.
7
SPEAKER_00
I can be more accountable when I m kind to myself.
7
SPEAKER_00
So that doesn t mean, oh, it s fine that you called him.
7
SPEAKER_00
You just get back in the relationship with him.
7
SPEAKER_00
It means, oh, you were feeling sad or you were feeling lonely.
7
SPEAKER_00
And you called him cause you were lonely, but maybe next time I ll call a friend.
7
SPEAKER_00
Maybe next time I ll take a walk.
7
SPEAKER_00
Maybe next time I will go to this meeting, you know, whatever you need to do.
7
SPEAKER_00
And then you re really being compassionate and you have in your journal kind of this, this friend.
7
SPEAKER_00
that s really kind to yourself, that knows you really well, and that knows what you need to do, and it s right there on the page.
7
SPEAKER_01
Such a great note about your journal letting you know how you talk to yourself, and the language you use with yourself, and helping you change that, because when it s on the page, you can cross it out, you can edit it, you can write a new version.
7
SPEAKER_01
When it s in your head, it just keeps repeating, and you never get that moment to edit it or to filter it.
7
SPEAKER_01
Laurie, you ve been so kind with your time today.
7
SPEAKER_01
I want to ask you one last thing and it s about what you just mentioned there and I think it s breakups and it s, you know, I still find till this day that breakups seem to be the hardest relationship transition that people tend to go through.
7
SPEAKER_01
maybe apart from grief or maybe even similar.
7
SPEAKER_01
And I d love your thoughts on that, but because it is a kind of loss, I think that people feel.
7
SPEAKER_01
There was one person from the audience that we were connected with that had a breakup and they really, they were together with this person for two years.
7
SPEAKER_01
They really thought this is the person that they were going to spend their life with.
7
SPEAKER_01
They really thought this was going in that direction.
7
SPEAKER_01
They felt that they actually had good like compatibility.
7
SPEAKER_01
They were good at talking about things.
7
SPEAKER_01
but then what felt like out of the blue to this person, they just felt that this person was like, I don t think this is going in that direction anymore.
7
SPEAKER_01
And then things withered away quickly.
7
SPEAKER_01
It s hard when you kind of, you know, and this is probably what you get all the time.
7
SPEAKER_01
People don t feel a sense of closure.
7
SPEAKER_01
They don t really understand the other person s not doing a good job explaining it and doesn t want to, or doesn t have the time.
7
SPEAKER_01
What are some of the steps that we need to take when we re kind of lost in that no person s land of,
7
SPEAKER_01
I thought I had something.
7
SPEAKER_01
It doesn t exist anymore.
7
SPEAKER_00
Well, first of all, loss is exactly, it s grief and people go through the stages of grief and the stages of grief are not sequential.
7
SPEAKER_00
So they re, they re actually meant for people who are, who are experiencing terminal illness, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance.
7
SPEAKER_00
Um, but they re very apt, I think for, for any kind of loss.
7
SPEAKER_00
And when you talk about a breakup, there can be denial like, Oh, you don t really mean that we really are compatible.
7
SPEAKER_00
And you try to talk the other person into maybe seeing the light that they can t see.
7
SPEAKER_00
You know, the anger is, how could you have led me on for this amount of time?
7
SPEAKER_00
You re such a terrible person.
7
SPEAKER_00
You wasted all my time.
7
SPEAKER_00
You were lying to me this whole time.
7
SPEAKER_00
When the person wasn t, they probably truly, you know, thought this was going somewhere.
7
SPEAKER_00
you know, the bargaining is, well, what if, you know, you know, the person tells you maybe why they re breaking up with you.
7
SPEAKER_00
Like, I don t think that we re compatible in this way.
7
SPEAKER_00
And then you try to become the thing, you know, like, what if I did this, or I can be more of this, or we can do this.
7
SPEAKER_00
And they re like, no, that s not really the way this will get solved.
7
SPEAKER_00
You know, depression, which is just the whole, I mean, it s so, because I think what people don t realize is it s not what you re losing just in the moment.
7
SPEAKER_00
It s you re losing the future.
7
SPEAKER_00
that you had imagined.
7
SPEAKER_00
So you lose the past, you lose whatever amount of time you spent with that person.
7
SPEAKER_00
You built a life with this person and just the dailiness.
7
SPEAKER_00
There s an intimacy to that dailiness.
7
SPEAKER_00
There s a comfort.
7
SPEAKER_00
There s a safety of this person knows all these little quirks about me.
7
SPEAKER_00
We have all these inside jokes.
7
SPEAKER_00
We have a shorthand.
7
SPEAKER_00
This person asks how my day is.
7
SPEAKER_00
I know
8
SPEAKER_00
it s the dailiness of being with someone.
8
SPEAKER_00
So you lose that, that s very lonely.
8
SPEAKER_00
But then you also lose the future.
8
SPEAKER_00
You had built up a whole story about what your lives were going to be like in a year, five years, 10 years, 20 years.
8
SPEAKER_00
gone.
8
SPEAKER_00
And you have nothing to replace it with right now because you don t know what it s going to look like yet.
8
SPEAKER_00
So the grief is real.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I think people try to downplay it.
8
SPEAKER_00
They re like, why are you so sad about this?
8
SPEAKER_00
He was a jerk or she was a jerk or whatever.
8
SPEAKER_00
It s like, I m sad because I lost something very important to me.
8
SPEAKER_00
And your friends need to realize that instead of just demonizing the other person, they need to realize like you lost something really valuable in your daily life, in the present, in the future, part of your past, all of that is gone now.
8
SPEAKER_00
So that s really hard.
8
SPEAKER_00
I think the other part of then dealing with the grief is letting yourself feel it.
8
SPEAKER_00
because it s real no matter what people tell you.
8
SPEAKER_00
It s real.
8
SPEAKER_00
And the other part is the story that you re telling yourself about it is really important.
8
SPEAKER_00
So you might be telling yourself a story of the other person s terrible.
8
SPEAKER_00
That might feel good in the moment.
8
SPEAKER_00
It might be something like I m bad.
8
SPEAKER_00
You know, like I m not good enough.
8
SPEAKER_00
If I were only something else, this person would love me more.
8
SPEAKER_00
I m not lovable or I ll never find anyone.
8
SPEAKER_00
Right?
8
SPEAKER_00
Those are not helpful stories because it s not true.
8
SPEAKER_00
It s, you were not compatible with this person for whatever reason, even though you thought you were.
8
SPEAKER_00
If the other person doesn t feel you re the right person for them, you re automatically incompatible.
8
SPEAKER_00
Right?
8
SPEAKER_00
You can t, you can t make it so that, well, they just don t see it.
8
SPEAKER_00
So we aren t compatible because the other person doesn t want to be with me.
8
SPEAKER_00
So many times I ll hear, you know, someone, even without a breakup, like someone will be dating someone and the person isn t really invested in the relationship, maybe in the way that they would like them to.
8
SPEAKER_00
And the person sitting on my couch will say, but we re so compatible.
8
SPEAKER_00
We re so perfect for each other.
8
SPEAKER_00
That person just has intimacy issues.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I could just change them.
8
SPEAKER_00
Even if the breakup was about, you think the person had intimacy issues.
8
SPEAKER_00
It doesn t really matter.
8
SPEAKER_00
The point is they aren t able to be with you.
8
SPEAKER_00
So you are not compatible.
8
SPEAKER_00
And so that is, I think, very comforting to know, like, we are just not compatible, even though it hurts a lot.
8
SPEAKER_00
We re not compatible.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I have to sit with the pain of, I need to know that we were not compatible, and that s not going to jade me in other relationships.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I think that s the important thing.
8
SPEAKER_00
So many times we get into a new relationship after that and we punish the new person for something the old person did.
8
SPEAKER_00
Right?
8
SPEAKER_00
Like the old, the old person wasn t truthful with me.
8
SPEAKER_00
So I m going to like check your phone all the time.
8
SPEAKER_00
No, don t, don t like put someone in jail for a crime they didn t commit.
8
SPEAKER_00
So you ve got to really like know what are the wounds from this relationship?
8
SPEAKER_00
What am I learning from this?
8
SPEAKER_00
What does this teach me about me, about the other person?
8
SPEAKER_00
And then how do I move into a new relationship with hope and with caution and holding both hope and caution?
8
SPEAKER_04
Fantastic.
8
SPEAKER_04
Laurie, the reason why I love talking to you about this is you re doing this all the time, whether it s in your private practice, whether it s on Dear Therapist, or whether it s through your books.
8
SPEAKER_04
And if you ve been listening or watching today, everyone, I hope that you go and grab a copy of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, the journal, 52 Weekly Sessions to Transform Your Life by Laurie Gottlieb.
8
SPEAKER_04
And as I said, you can subscribe to her podcast.
8
SPEAKER_04
And if you haven t read Maybe You Should Talk to Someone,
8
SPEAKER_04
Make sure you go and grab that book as well.
8
SPEAKER_04
Laurie, thank you so much for joining us on On Purpose.
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh, my pleasure.
8
SPEAKER_04
I m so grateful we got to spend this time together today and answer some of our audience s questions and challenges.
8
SPEAKER_04
And I m hoping that all of you who had yours answered, or maybe even if you didn t send something in, but you felt heard and you felt seen and you felt understood because so much of what we re all going through is so intertwined.
8
SPEAKER_04
And so thank you to everyone who was brave enough, courageous enough to share your stories.
8
SPEAKER_04
And Laurie, thank you for answering them so expertly.
8
SPEAKER_00
Oh, thank you so much for having me.
8
SPEAKER_00
I always love having these conversations with you.
8
SPEAKER_04
Thank you, Laurie.
8
SPEAKER_04
If you love this episode, you ll love my interview with Dr. Gabor Mate on understanding your trauma and how to heal emotional wounds to start moving on from the past.
8
SPEAKER_01
Everything in nature grows only where it s vulnerable.
8
SPEAKER_01
So a tree doesn t grow where it s hard and thick, does it?
8
SPEAKER_01
It grows where it s soft and green and vulnerable.
8
SPEAKER_02
Hey everyone, this is Molly and Matt and we re the hosts of Grown Up Stuff How to Adult, a podcast from Ruby Studio and iHeart Podcasts.
8
SPEAKER_03
It s a show dedicated to helping you figure out the trickiest parts of adulting.
8
SPEAKER_02
Like how to start planning for retirement, creating a healthy skincare routine, understanding when and how much to tip someone, and so much more.
8
SPEAKER_03
Let s learn about all of it and then some.
8
SPEAKER_03
Listen to Grown Up Stuff How to Adult on America s number one podcast network, iHeart.
8
SPEAKER_03
Open your free iHeart app and search Grown Up Stuff.