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He s a psychotherapist, author, and host.
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A round of applause to welcome Mr. Perel.
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How do you turn conflict into connection?
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It s not what you fight about, it s what you fight for.
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How do you know if a relationship is worth saving?
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Before we jump into this episode, I d like to invite you to join this community to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed.
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The number one health and wellness podcast.
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Jay Shetty.
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Jay Shetty.
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The one, the only, Jay Shetty.
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Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health and wellness podcast in the world.
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Thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to become happier, healthier, and more healed.
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Today s guest is someone that we ve had on before and you loved her.
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I know you loved her before, but you loved her on the show and I couldn t wait to get her back on because we ve never actually met in person until this day.
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I ve loved her books from afar.
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We ve connected over messagings and emails and we have so many mutual friends and I m so grateful that I finally get to sit in her presence today and actually get to do this interview face to face.
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Please welcome back to On Purpose, Esther Perel.
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Esther, thank you so much for doing this.
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Thank you for making the time.
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Thank you.
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I m genuinely so grateful.
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It s a pleasure to be here in 3D.
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Yes, exactly.
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After all these years, I think the first time I interviewed you must have been during the pandemic or something like that.
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I mean, I remember, I remember very clearly seeing you through the screen and saying, oh, this is a new life.
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I love it.
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Well, Esther, let s dive straight in because I have so many questions today.
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I have questions from me.
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I have questions from our audience.
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We have questions from social media.
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We re going to get to play your game as well, which I m very excited about and pick some questions from.
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But my first question is, how do you know if a relationship is worth saving?
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Shall I stay or shall I go is one of the fundamental questions.
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And here s the thing.
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Even if you decide to stay or even if they decide to go, you may do so while at the same time having a part of you that actually holds the other side.
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If you think that the decision is 100% perfect, no doubt, no hesitation, then you need to set up.
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If you leave, you need to be able to leave while experiencing the loss of some things that may have been good, even if it s just a dream of what was.
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If you stay, you have to be able to grieve the part of you that will never know what it would have been like if you actually left.
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So, the answer is not in the extreme determination, it s in the ability to hold inherent contradictions.
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It s a complex question, and complex questions don t have easy binary answers.
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And it s interesting, isn t it?
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Because we crave a binary, easy answer.
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We want it to feel
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We often seek complete clarity when we re trying to make a decision, rather than accepting that a decision is followed by consequences and a number of different feelings.
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You use the word grief there, and I ve seen research that shows how when someone breaks up with you or when you break up with someone,
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you almost crave them like we crave an addiction that may even be unhealthy for us at times.
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Why do you use the word grief and can you walk us through both of those losses of identity that you spoke about on either end?
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So grief is because I think every choice comes with loss.
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The consequence is the choice you didn t make.
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And even though you think this is the right choice and this is what I must do, the grief may be the fact that you were not capable of making this thing work, or that you had such high hopes and it didn t materialize, or that you have wished that you didn t make some mistakes that you made, or that you wish you had left sooner.
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There s lots of different ways, but there is no choice that doesn t have
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loss, and therefore some grief attached to it.
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And that is the nature of the beast.
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That does not mean that you didn t make the right choice.
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In terms of heartbreak, it s a different part.
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Yes, some people experience heartbreak with such an ache.
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with such a sense of longing and such a sense of fracturing on the inside that they are, that their longing becomes obsessive, that they are trapped in rumination and that it is experienced like a withdrawal.
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That is not all breakups, but that is the extreme kind of breakup which has been compared to an addiction because of the intense sense of withdrawal and because it takes place in the same centers in the brain.
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Let s say someone does want to save their relationship.
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They want to make it work.
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What does that take on a deeper level from that individual?
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What have you seen over the years of what it really takes?
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I think we often think of saving a relationship as like,
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Let s do more date nights.
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Let s spend more time together.
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Let s do more this.
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But what have you seen it really takes from a human?
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So look, I work with relationships for 40 years.
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These are questions that I can answer in multiple ways.
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So I m going to answer it in one way with you today.
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And somebody is going to say, but you didn t talk about that.
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So I just want to preface that because there isn t a one size fits all.
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And when I m going to highlight something now with you, because it s the first thing that came into my mind when you asked what can we do to actually repair our relationships, strengthen them, fortify them, solidify them, enliven them.
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One of the first things I often think about is accountability.
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It s actually not asking the other person to do all the changing.
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Somebody s going to tell me, but what if you ve done that and it hasn t made any difference on the other side?
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So I just want that to be
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mentioned.
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In general, in relationships, we often get to a place where we think you need to change.
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Here, I m going to tell you what you could do differently that would make this relationship better.
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And the hardest thing to do is to actually say, what can I do?
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Because if you change, it is quite sure that it will also create change on the other side, because we are interdependent parts.
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In a relationship, I start to do something which makes you do something which makes me do something.
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It s a figure eight.
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But if I start to do something else, sooner or later, you cannot continue to do the same.
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If I no longer answer you when you say something,
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There s a good chance that at some point you re going to stop saying it because you don t get the reaction that you ve been used to get.
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So there s no better way to change the other than to change ourselves.
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But that s not a hundred percent thing.
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It s just a good principle to keep in mind.
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What is it that I can do differently?
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What s one thing I could choose that I know would improve the relationship because I ve heard you or because I know us.
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And if I don t instantly walk out every time, but I actually stay and I listen and I pay attention, will that create something rather than thinking about, you know, all the good reasons why I should get out or leave in that moment.
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So this accountability piece is very high on my list, but there are 10 other things about what makes us work on a relationship to improve it.
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And you talked about there how, you know, trying to change the other person isn t necessarily the focus, but for so many of us, that seems to be the problem.
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The problem seems to be the other person s behaviors, their attitude, their approach to life, maybe their aspirations.
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I hear a lot of people say things like, they don t dream enough, they don t dream
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They dream too little, right?
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Too much.
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Too much, right, that s it, yeah.
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I hear some people say they don t dream enough, they dream too much.
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Yes.
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I hear people say, oh, they have too many friends, they have no friends, right?
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I see people at both ends of the spectrum, we always seem to have issues with how our partners live.
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And what I ve learned, at least in my own personal reflection, and I ve found is that for a long time,
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In my relationships, I often projected the way I lived onto my partner.
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We so strongly believe that the way we live is right.
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The way we were brought up is right, that we want our partner to follow suit.
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I always give this very small example from my own home.
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In my house, we used to eat, hang out, and then at the end of the night, we d wash the dishes.
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In my wife s home, they used to eat, wash the dishes, and then hang out.
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And so when we got married and we started living together and when we were having friends over or whatever it may be, in my mind, we re gonna eat, we re gonna hang out, and then we re gonna wash the dishes.
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And in my wife s mind, she s thinking, we re gonna eat, now we have to clean up, make sure everything s clean, and then we can hang out.
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And something as little as that can cause so much
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Friction.
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Friction, and bad communication, and feelings of, oh, you don t care about me, and you don t love me, and you don t appreciate me, or you don t value the work.
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And there s so much that comes from something, and that s just a very small example.
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But it s interesting to me that in that scenario, we both had not created a new belief system for our relationship, but were operating based on two old belief systems that we d simply adopted.
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Walk us through whether you agree, whether you disagree, whether you can edit that, reveal more to us about
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I find so many of our challenges exist because we project our operating system onto someone else rather than creating one with them.
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I like the way you call it the operating system.
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So I m going to take a sentence that you highlighted and start from there.
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You said, here we were fighting about what s the right moment to do the dishes.
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But in fact, what we were talking about is you don t care.
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You don t see me.
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You don t appreciate me.
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You want it your way.
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And what you re highlighting here is something that I ve actually talked a lot about in a new course that I m doing on conflict, which is exactly that.
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How do you turn conflict into connection?
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And one of the things I say is that it s not what you fight about, it s what you fight for.
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You were fighting for recognition, you were fighting for power and control, you were fighting for respect, you were fighting for trust and closeness.
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Underneath the fight, there are usually three sets of issues that we are actually fighting for.
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And that is power, trust, and value.
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So you don t value me, you know, I worked on this dish, on this cooking, I ve made this nice meal I prepared, I tried to be kind to your friends and you don t value me.
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Once you ve understood that what is the hidden dimension that you are actually fighting for, the fight, the dishes, the when to do them becomes a lot more clear.
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a lot more clear rather than it s not just, I m imposing my belief on you and I want it to do my way because my way is the right way.
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That s, you may think this way, but the question is what happens when you have to confront yourself with someone who is different?
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I mean, everything about relationships is about straddling sameness and difference.
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You know, and when you have a couple s therapist, it s very typical that people come to you and they re like a drop-off center, right?
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They tell you, you know, here my relationship, here s my partner, let me tell you what s wrong with them and maybe you can fix them and I ll help you.
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I ll be your adjunct on how to make my partner understand why my family s way of doing things is the best way of doing things.
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It s a very good way.
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And so then the question is, if you have to change your mind,
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Does that mean that it s a loss of your identity or can you actually experience that as an expansion as something that you let in?
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How do you let the other person influence you without being constantly in the defense of your, you know, this is my flag and here are my values or my operation system?
1
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Yeah, I really, really relate to what you re saying.
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And I love how you ve broken it down to what we re fighting for versus what we re fighting about.
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I think that s brilliant.
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And that s from your masterclass, right?
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No, this is from my own new course.
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Oh, this is from your own new course.
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I am coming out with it very soon.
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And that is really about letting people have a very different view and set of skills for handling conflict like this one.
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You know, at first it was a nice thing you didn t fight about.
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You just said, we do it.
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Oh, that s so interesting.
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No, let s do it now.
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No, let s.
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And then slowly, because you couldn t come into an unified agreement, it became a point of contention.
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And then that point of contention became the go-to every time you need to talk about your backgrounds, your values, your style, your priorities, your way of doing.
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I think we feel so robbed, or at least when I speak to people about this, they feel so robbed, as you said, of their identity.
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But also, as you said, people feel robbed of their power, that if I give in to this other person, my partner may be the more powerful one in the relationship.
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Or if I concede, then in the future when we re making decisions, they re going to think I m going to concede.
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And often that is the case, that people get into relationships because they think the other person is
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submissive or conceding to them or agrees with them on everything they say.
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And then one day that person goes, wait a minute, I didn t realize I just gave up everything I care about for you.
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And so how does one learn how to practice that humility and giving up of power?
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Or is the solution a unified agreement, as you called it just there?
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What are we trying to unravel?
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How do we do that?
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Because I think that... But you just betrayed yourself in the question.
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Your whole question is framed in power terms.
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Concede, acquiesce, give in, loss of self, loss of power.
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And that s how people feel.
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Yes, some people feel this way.
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That is one frame for some people to enter into a relationship.
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But if I actually change the word power, I could go like this.
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In every relationship, you will find that there often is one person who is more afraid of losing the other, and one person who is more afraid of losing themselves.
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One person more afraid of abandonment and rejection, therefore more likely to acquiesce, to pacify, to placate, to say yes until maybe one day not.
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And one person more afraid of suffocation and therefore they fight for their ideas, their ways of doing it, the timing of the dishes.
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And that is less about power.
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That is more about the nature of connection.
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The majority of power struggles in a relationship are not power struggles.
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Power is the defense.
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The control battle is the way people are defending trying to get something for something else that they are worried about.
1
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It s the surface behavior.
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You know, some people, when they re afraid, they fight.
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But the issue is not fighting.
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is that they re actually afraid and they re trying to deal with their fear by gaining control.
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So don t just go for what you see, because what you see isn t necessarily just what it is.
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Go always looking at a level below, otherwise you re going to have a lot of this.
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Yeah, exactly.
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And so you re encouraging those people that feel that way to
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look at that layer deeper, the context of why they re partnering.
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Why do you think that giving in makes you lose your identity?
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Where did you get that idea?
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Who did you have to fight with that you had a sense that if you don t go all the way and with fists, that s the motion of fighting, right?
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It s not this.
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You know, but you enter the relationship with that and yet you live it with this.
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So what happened to you that is making you continuously interpret every situation as a fight, as a power struggle, as I have to stand up and hold on because if I give in, this is the beginning of a slippery slope.
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That s a frame, that is not the truth.
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Now, maybe you picked somebody with whom this is sometimes what is going to happen.
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So then you ask this person, what happens if you don t get your way?
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For you, the question is what happens if the other person gets their way?
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And for you, the question is what happens when you don t get your way?
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Can you still feel confident even if you don t trample somebody?
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Yeah, and I think the questions you re asking that we all need to reflect on for ourselves
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I almost think they re as important to ask our partners, to understand what happened to them, why they re in that position, why they get afraid.
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I think that curiosity is so often lost in romantic relationships where we don t understand why someone is the way they are.
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We just assume that it s about us.
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We make it personal.
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We don t recognize that.
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They have a whole history of relationships, of family, of parenting, of experiences that have made them that way.
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And maybe they are dealing with a deep fear or a deep challenge.
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Does that resonate?
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Yes.
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You know, this thing about curiosity is the most important shift we try to make.
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Curiosity about yourself and curiosity about your partner or friend or coworker, whoever the other is.
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Curiosity is on the other side of reactivity.
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So everything dealing with conflict is about helping a shift from reactive to reflective and curious.
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But more interestingly, what you reminded me of is a thing I talk about in the course that s called fundamental attribution error.
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If you are nasty,
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or reactive or bullying me a bit, or even just simply if you re late, whatever you re doing, the tendency is to think that when you do this, it s because you have a negative personality.
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But if I am nasty or short or, you know, cutting a little bit, then it s because I had a tough day.
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Mine is circumstantial and yours is characterological.
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And the loss of curiosity in relationships is because we tend to think that we are more complex than our partner.
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And that s what makes us not ask, what is your story with this?
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Why do you need to get things your way all the time?
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Why do you have to
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really didn t until I finally say, whatever you want, dear, you know, we ll do it your way, because unless you got it your way, you think that you are, you know, on the floor.
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Yeah, I think people, and Esther, you ve, I mean, you ve done this for decades now, like, I m sure you feel that what we re really addressing here, which I m so happy that we ve kind of gone in this direction, it s beautiful, and I m so happy that we re there, that this idea of
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Are you curious about yourself and why it s happening and what happened to you are you curious about your partner and what happened to them are you not making it personal are you thinking about working as a team building unified agreements all of this language is so positive.
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And I genuinely believe that what we ve just covered is so often missed in relationships because we re so busy pointing the finger and pointing the blame and pointing the responsibility that as you started off with, there s a lack of accountability.
2
SPEAKER_00
And that being such a brilliant shift to even just start with.
2
SPEAKER_01
It s liberating.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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It s actually liberating for people to say, let me check myself for a minute.
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SPEAKER_01
The fear that people have is, why me?
2
SPEAKER_01
Is it my problem?
2
SPEAKER_01
Why are you blaming me?
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SPEAKER_01
No, no, no.
2
SPEAKER_01
Taking responsibility is liberating because the only thing you can really change is you.
2
SPEAKER_01
There s a lot more freedom to do something about yourself than to go look for your partner on the other side.
2
SPEAKER_01
I had a moment like that recently.
2
SPEAKER_01
So I was on the phone and I was a little agitated talking to banks.
2
SPEAKER_01
people and administrating, bureaucracy, which gets me agitated.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then my partner said, you know, you too?
2
SPEAKER_01
And then my partner says, my husband says to me, I have a headache.
2
SPEAKER_01
I said, what happened?
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SPEAKER_01
He says, you ve been so yelling here next to me in the car.
2
SPEAKER_01
And, and I m like,
2
SPEAKER_01
You know, I m trying to solve these problems and you can t just say to me, you know, that s really frustrating.
2
SPEAKER_01
These people were like keeping you on the phone for an hour.
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SPEAKER_01
You think I wanted to be on the phone for an hour with this?
2
SPEAKER_01
And I just feel like a little lack of empathy, please, a bit of sympathy, some support.
2
SPEAKER_01
And on top of it, I m getting scolded now for my attitude.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I sat there and I began, you know, brooding.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I said, OK, I m not going to talk to you.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know, I thought if you don t want to, if I m that unpleasant, well, then I m not going to say anything.
2
SPEAKER_01
And then I sat in there and I m thinking I m married almost 40 years.
2
SPEAKER_01
I m thinking to myself, am I going to go do this one again?
2
SPEAKER_01
You know.
2
SPEAKER_01
Why am I doing this?
2
SPEAKER_01
Why do I feel so upset?
2
SPEAKER_01
Why don t I just simply say I can imagine that it was unpleasant to... So he says to me, why don t you say something about the fact that it s really annoying to sit next to someone who is so agitated?
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SPEAKER_01
And I m thinking, why doesn t you say something about how frustrated it is that I need to be so agitated?
2
SPEAKER_01
You know, and this could have turned into a real fight.
2
SPEAKER_01
And luckily, a little bit of humor takes us out of it very quickly.
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SPEAKER_01
It s like, we came like, how many minutes are we going to do this?
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SPEAKER_00
Yes, yes, yes.
2
SPEAKER_00
And where was that coming from after all this time?
2
SPEAKER_00
Like you said, you ve been together for four decades, you love each other, you trust each other, you ve worked through so many of these things.
2
SPEAKER_00
What do you think it is that we re still fighting for in that moment?
2
SPEAKER_00
Like, what is it?
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SPEAKER_00
Because it doesn t go away, you re right.
2
SPEAKER_01
We have two answers.
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SPEAKER_01
I mean, we would have very different answers to your question, first of all, just so you understand.
2
SPEAKER_01
I will tell you, I sometimes, you know, hear him talk in a situation like this, and he s very, could you explain to me why this is, and I m thinking, tell them that this is not right, you know, and he says, afterwards, he hangs up, says, I was very angry on the phone.
2
SPEAKER_01
And I m like, excuse me, that is good.
2
SPEAKER_01
You know, so I don t think I get much further by being more, you know, confrontational than actually, I don t think I m any more effective.
2
SPEAKER_01
I think these situations are frustrating whichever way, but we get into an argument over which of our approaches is the better one to talk with the bureaucracy.
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SPEAKER_01
It s ridiculous.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
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SPEAKER_01
And it s... So he thinks I should be nicer.
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SPEAKER_00
Right, right, right.
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SPEAKER_01
And I think he should be a little more...
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and what are you saying?
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SPEAKER_00
Are you saying that neither approach matters and we re arguing about something insignificant?
2
SPEAKER_01
No, here s the thing.
2
SPEAKER_01
You re in a situation where you are bound to not necessarily be successful.
2
SPEAKER_01
You re bound to experience some helplessness.
2
SPEAKER_01
It is frustrating.
2
SPEAKER_01
the situation is frustrating.
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SPEAKER_01
Instead of dealing with the frustration of the situation, you start to blame the other person for the fact that they didn t get to the result that you wanted.
2
SPEAKER_01
Instead of this kind of situation where you go back week after week with another person on the phone, automated thing, you know, and instead of aligning together against
2
SPEAKER_01
the situation, you start to project onto the other.
2
SPEAKER_01
Why are you not competent so that I don t have to feel so helpless?
2
SPEAKER_00
Yes, yes, yes.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I can relate to that.
2
SPEAKER_00
We had a similar one, kind of inverse to what you just said, but a similar interaction where I remember my wife would often say to me, I ve had a really tough day.
2
SPEAKER_00
And I d take that as an opportunity to say... I had a tough day too, and mine was tougher.
2
SPEAKER_00
I would go further and say, I had a tough week.
2
SPEAKER_01
You really up it.
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SPEAKER_00
I m like really up it.
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SPEAKER_00
And it s like I m using her opportunity to be vulnerable and to share how she feels with me and to feel comforted and supported and just heard to be heard.
2
SPEAKER_00
I m using her opportunity to be heard to hear myself.
2
SPEAKER_00
It s kind of like when you were looking at me looking at myself earlier.
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SPEAKER_00
It s like that idea of she s saying, hey, just sit with me for a second.
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SPEAKER_00
And I m saying, well, no, sit with me for a week and think about where I m coming from.
2
SPEAKER_01
You have it tough.
2
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
2
SPEAKER_00
And then now it just turns into a competition as to whose life is tougher.
2
SPEAKER_00
Right.
2
SPEAKER_00
And making the other person feel like their pain is not valuable or that their stress that they ve gone through is insignificant compared to mine.
2
SPEAKER_00
And all of a sudden you re fighting for something that you don t even want to prove to your partner.
2
SPEAKER_00
Like I don t want to make my partner feel like they re
3
SPEAKER_00
pain is not valuable, but because I m not honoring my challenge and my stress and what I m going through, I m expecting to use their space to do that.
3
SPEAKER_01
You just explained it very well, but sometimes, I mean, the effect is the same.
3
SPEAKER_01
You topping her, you know, in such a big way, completely says to her, you have nothing to complain about, which is not necessarily your intention, but it is often the way the other person registers it.
3
SPEAKER_01
And then the question to you is, do you ever say to her, I have a tough week without her prompt?
3
SPEAKER_02
Yes.
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SPEAKER_01
Because part of what happens is that you get prompted by the other person and it suddenly says, oh, if you give yourself the permission to say, to complain or to just vent a moment, then maybe I get that permission too.
3
SPEAKER_01
And what changes it is to say, you know, A is to acknowledge what has just been said and then to say, I have that feeling often too.
3
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_01
But it is the competition.
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SPEAKER_01
It is the, you suffer, I suffer more.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, absolutely.
3
SPEAKER_00
Now something that s really helped me personally... Do you use humor now?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, my wife can make anything funny.
3
SPEAKER_00
So I rely on her to bring the humor in because she s just... Very useful.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, she s just, she s hilarious.
3
SPEAKER_00
She s a comedian.
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SPEAKER_00
So not as in not professional, she s just a funny person.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so she can always add that.
3
SPEAKER_00
But now what really helps me, and this is more what I m like, is I m kind of preemptive of stress.
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SPEAKER_00
And so I ll sit down and I ll be like, hey, I ve got a really stressful week coming up.
3
SPEAKER_00
I just want you to be aware of that.
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SPEAKER_00
And so, you know, if I m a bit short or I m running around or I m not fully present, I just want you to be aware I ve got a lot of stuff going on.
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SPEAKER_00
And if you need me, of course I ll be there, but just know.
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SPEAKER_00
And I like to set that up and communicate that because to me, it gives me space.
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SPEAKER_00
to at least let her know where I m coming from rather than to catch me in a bad moment, and then I end up behaving in a way that I m not proud of, whereas now she s aware, so now she s mindful of that too.
3
SPEAKER_00
And she doesn t have to tiptoe around me, or she doesn t have to be unaware, but it s the idea that she s conscious, that I get it.
3
SPEAKER_00
He s got three crazy days coming up, and we can talk about something maybe the day after.
3
SPEAKER_01
Can I take this one a step further?
3
SPEAKER_00
Please, I d love to, I d love that.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s probably one of the most useful things I have seen changing in a relationship.
3
SPEAKER_01
When you do what you just do, you re attentive, you re caring, you let her know, you re apologetic.
3
SPEAKER_01
And being apologetic is very beautiful, but it still says my life is very important.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I just want you to know, I m not going to be there.
3
SPEAKER_01
The step that really changes it around is when you say to the other person, I m so thankful that you are here because you re being here is what enables me to go take care of my busy week.
3
SPEAKER_01
Because once you say it like that, you make the other person very important and not, my life is so important, thank you for understanding it.
3
SPEAKER_01
You come after.
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SPEAKER_01
I ll be there if you need me, but you come after.
3
SPEAKER_01
The thanking reinforces the interdependence.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it s true because you couldn t go and attend to your life the way you do without having the other person do whatever it takes for you to be able to be absent for a while.
3
SPEAKER_01
And when you acknowledge that, it makes them feel like they re part of the story rather than they re on hold while your story unfolds.
3
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely, absolutely.
3
SPEAKER_00
I couldn t agree with you more.
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SPEAKER_00
And I ve always found that, at least for me, doing that separately in different contexts has at least helped me when it s not tied to the same context.
3
SPEAKER_00
But I love that idea and I fully agree with you.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s a nice switch.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it s beautiful.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s a tweak that really changes
3
SPEAKER_01
The power dynamic in the relationship in a small move.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yes, definitely.
3
SPEAKER_00
It s switching the significance from yourself to this relationship and the support that you each provide.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s beautiful.
3
SPEAKER_00
I love that.
3
SPEAKER_00
I love what we re talking about and you ve probably heard this a million times and that s what I think it s important to address.
3
SPEAKER_00
A lot of people will say, I want to talk to my partner about these things.
3
SPEAKER_00
I want to be curious about them.
3
SPEAKER_00
I want to ask them about their past.
3
SPEAKER_00
But every time I do, they shut down.
3
SPEAKER_00
They go quiet.
3
SPEAKER_00
They don t want to talk about it.
3
SPEAKER_00
If I get curious and say, hey, you know, when we re not arguing, but when we re just talking, and I say, hey, you know what?
3
SPEAKER_00
I just wanted to figure out, like, is there anything that scares you from your past?
3
SPEAKER_00
Is there anything that worries you?
3
SPEAKER_00
Or is there any challenge you re going through?
3
SPEAKER_00
How can I help you?
3
SPEAKER_00
And the other person goes, no, no, no, I m fine.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m OK.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m dealing with it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And people often feel like they get shut down when they re trying to be curious.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m sure you ve heard this a million times in sessions.
3
SPEAKER_00
And how have you, how have you dealt with that?
3
SPEAKER_04
The Therapy for Black Girls podcast is an NAACP and Webby Award winning podcast dedicated to all things mental health, personal development, and all of the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
3
SPEAKER_04
Here, we have the conversations that help Black women decipher how their pasts inform who they are today,
3
SPEAKER_04
and use that information to decide who they want to be moving forward.
3
SPEAKER_04
We chat about things like how to establish routines that center self-care, what burnout looks and feels like, and defining what aspects of our lives are making us happy and what parts are holding us back.
3
SPEAKER_04
I m your host, Dr. Joy Harden-Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia.
3
SPEAKER_04
And I can t wait for you to join the conversation every Wednesday.
3
SPEAKER_04
Listen to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
3
SPEAKER_04
Take good care, and we ll see you there.
3
SPEAKER_05
Tune in to the new podcast, Stories from the Village of Nothing Much, like easy listening, but for fiction.
3
SPEAKER_05
If you ve overdosed on bad news, we invite you into a world where the glimmers of goodness in everyday life are all around you.
3
SPEAKER_05
I m Katherine Nicolai, and you might know me from the Bedtime Story podcast, Nothing Much Happens.
3
SPEAKER_05
I m an architect of cozy, and I invite you to come spend some time where everyone is welcome and kindness is the default.
3
SPEAKER_05
When you tune in, you ll hear stories about bakeries and walks in the woods, a favorite booth at the diner on a blustery autumn day, cats and dogs, unrescued goats and donkeys, old houses, bookshops, beaches where kites fly, and pretty stones are found.
3
SPEAKER_05
I have so many stories to tell you, and they are all designed to help you feel good and feel connected to what is good in the world.
3
SPEAKER_05
Listen, relax, enjoy.
3
SPEAKER_05
Listen to stories from the Village of Nothing Much on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
3
SPEAKER_03
Get emotional with me, Radhi Devlukia, in my new podcast, A Really Good Cry.
3
SPEAKER_03
We re going to talk about and go through all the things that are sometimes difficult to process alone.
3
SPEAKER_03
We re going to go over how to regulate your emotions, diving deep into holistic personal development, and just building your mindset to have a happier, healthier life.
3
SPEAKER_03
We re going to be talking with some of my best friends.
3
SPEAKER_02
I didn t know we were going to go there Amir!
3
SPEAKER_03
people that I admire.
3
SPEAKER_03
When we say listen to your body, really tune in to what s going on.
3
SPEAKER_03
Authors of books that have changed my life.
3
SPEAKER_03
Now you re talking about sympathy, which is different than empathy.
3
SPEAKER_03
And basically have conversations that can help us get through this crazy thing we call life.
3
SPEAKER_03
I already believe in myself.
3
SPEAKER_03
I already see myself.
3
SPEAKER_03
And so when people give me an opportunity, I m just like,
3
SPEAKER_03
Oh great, you see me too.
3
SPEAKER_03
We ll laugh together, we ll cry together, and find a way through all of our emotions.
3
SPEAKER_03
Never forget, it s okay to cry, as long as you make it a really good one.
3
SPEAKER_03
Listen to A Really Good Cry with Radhi Devlukia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
3
SPEAKER_01
If you ve tried to ask your partner a certain set of questions and you systematically get the same answer, change tactic.
3
SPEAKER_01
The point is not doing it one more time, hoping that this time you re going to get a better response.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s a little bit like Moses and the rock, you know, the water won t flow.
3
SPEAKER_01
So what I like is not to be so direct.
3
SPEAKER_01
You know, somebody told me recently that they had gone to an offsite at work.
3
SPEAKER_01
So it started in a different context, but it s a good example.
3
SPEAKER_01
And she organized this whole offsite and she took a card from the game, from where should we begin?
3
SPEAKER_01
And the card was somebody who impacted your life and doesn t know it.
3
SPEAKER_01
And the whole group went through this question.
3
SPEAKER_01
And basically, people spoke
3
SPEAKER_01
that you knew nothing about, people who never talk, and people who you thought you knew that came up with stories that you had no idea about.
3
SPEAKER_01
Try to do it in a more playful way.
3
SPEAKER_01
Try to do it sometimes as part of a dinner conversation.
3
SPEAKER_01
Try to do it with a question that is less on the nose, you know, and that invites you to start from anywhere you want.
3
SPEAKER_01
This is an interesting question that you can answer at so many levels of depth.
3
SPEAKER_01
There are many of those.
3
SPEAKER_01
If you just say, tell me about your past.
3
SPEAKER_01
No, you know, you saw this movie and you saw what happened there.
3
SPEAKER_01
It s like,
3
SPEAKER_01
Anything of that, that is familiar to you and you tell your story, you need to create a context.
3
SPEAKER_01
For many people, digging deep into the past is traumatizing, aversive, scary, uninteresting, you know.
4
SPEAKER_01
don t have the vocabulary for it.
4
SPEAKER_01
It s the other thing.
4
SPEAKER_01
So that s why people have used the arts, books, movies, plays, songs, poetry.
4
SPEAKER_01
They speak our human experience with, and we only have to say that.
4
SPEAKER_01
That s my thing.
4
SPEAKER_01
So sometimes I say to people, you know, how about you find some songs that express the stuff that you don t know how to talk about.
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SPEAKER_01
And that s a much lighter lift than tell me about your past.
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SPEAKER_01
You know, a character that represents the parent that you grew up with and you go and find into a series, a television series, one of these characters, they re all, they ve all been written about.
4
SPEAKER_01
Use other mediums, other vocabularies to open up stuff that people don t necessarily want to be in therapy with their partner.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I love that.
4
SPEAKER_00
That s such great advice and I couldn t agree more.
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SPEAKER_00
I always say, everyone who s listening to me, I always say to them, like, please don t force my book onto your partner.
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SPEAKER_00
Like, please don t.
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SPEAKER_00
Like, you may love my book, so you may love my work.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, put it on the night table.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
Please don t do that.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I always say to people, like, it s about speaking the language that your partner connects to.
4
SPEAKER_00
And that s what you re saying.
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SPEAKER_00
The language could be music, the language could be art, the language could be… Correct.
4
SPEAKER_00
movies.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I always talk about one of the reasons why I love having my podcast is because I get to speak to so many different people from so many different backgrounds, so many different walks of life, talking about similar things.
4
SPEAKER_00
You read a book a day.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, exactly.
4
SPEAKER_00
And what I find is someone may relate to athletes more.
4
SPEAKER_00
So if an athlete is opening up about their mental health and their vulnerability or a challenge they have with a parent, your partner may respond to that more.
4
SPEAKER_00
than they would a coach, a therapist, a psychologist.
4
SPEAKER_00
Or one of your partners may respond to academics and scientists more than they would to a guide.
4
SPEAKER_00
And it doesn t matter how they open up.
4
SPEAKER_00
And so I love that you said that.
4
SPEAKER_00
I love that you said sometimes we re just trying the same strategy for too long.
4
SPEAKER_00
And, you know, like you said, on the nose, we kind of approach it in a very direct, linear, literal way.
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SPEAKER_01
Like, tell me about, you know, you re doing this.
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SPEAKER_01
What happened to you before?
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, like a cause and effect.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, play with it.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, you re trying to be that therapist and you can t.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think play is a good thing.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think movement is important too.
4
SPEAKER_01
Many people talk much more easily when they re walking, when they re hiking, when they re on a ski lift.
4
SPEAKER_01
Don t just sit and try to do face to face.
4
SPEAKER_01
There s a reason that fishing is so good.
4
SPEAKER_01
Because you do parallel play.
4
SPEAKER_01
Everybody s looking forward.
4
SPEAKER_01
Nobody has to lock eyes.
4
SPEAKER_01
And it allows me to think out loud and to answer a question here and there.
4
SPEAKER_01
The other thing is sometimes the question comes later.
4
SPEAKER_01
Often there s one person that s much more articulate about some of these things than another.
4
SPEAKER_01
So find other mediums, other vocabularies and other settings.
4
SPEAKER_01
Start with that.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I love that.
4
SPEAKER_00
One of my favorite dates that me and my wife went on very early on was this activity in England called Go Ape.
4
SPEAKER_00
And what it is, is it s like a ropes course that s high up in the air.
4
SPEAKER_00
So it s like 80 feet or whatever up above the air.
4
SPEAKER_00
And you ve got all these different like activities and things.
4
SPEAKER_00
So you re like swinging, you re like trying to walk on these steps.
4
SPEAKER_00
It s challenging, but it s fun.
4
SPEAKER_00
and i remember having so much fun because they were activities that she found easy and i found hard and activities that i found easy and she found hard and we could help each other we could talk while we were doing it there was a sense of support and i think what you re saying is so true that i find that doing activities where we re both novices are really fun.
4
SPEAKER_00
Because when we re both getting a chance to see a new, fresh, unseen side of each other, we really get to play and really get to understand.
4
SPEAKER_00
If I m in a position of strength, if I know a sport really well and she s never done it, then I m not really learning anything new.
4
SPEAKER_00
I m kind of just being there and trying to be the teacher.
4
SPEAKER_00
And same vice versa but if we both have no clue about something like me my wife took a surfing lesson for the first time in our life like a couple of years ago when we went to hawaii we both never surfed in our life you know both from london and that wasn t.
4
SPEAKER_00
Accessible there.
4
SPEAKER_00
And we went on a first ever lesson and it was just hilarious.
4
SPEAKER_00
It was fun.
4
SPEAKER_00
It was silly.
4
SPEAKER_00
We were both learning about how much tolerance we both had and there was humor coming in and what skill set we had.
4
SPEAKER_00
And you re so right that adding movement to being together, especially I find in ways where you re not familiar, provides a real opportunity to see someone vulnerably.
4
SPEAKER_01
So you added more than just movement.
4
SPEAKER_01
You added risk.
4
SPEAKER_01
And you added playfulness.
4
SPEAKER_01
There s a beautiful book by Eli Finkel called The All or Nothing Marriage.
4
SPEAKER_01
And he talks about really what creates a sense of aliveness in relationships.
4
SPEAKER_01
And one of the things he highlights is the importance of doing new things.
4
SPEAKER_01
Not just doing things that you both enjoy, that you re comfortable with, that s good, but that breeds friendship.
4
SPEAKER_01
Whereas when you do new things that also involve unknown, mystery, risk, curiosity, that s where you actually bring in excitement, and in my language, also desire.
4
SPEAKER_00
I love that.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that s beautiful.
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SPEAKER_00
That makes complete sense.
4
SPEAKER_00
And I love those words.
4
SPEAKER_00
Those words we don t often use around relationships, risk, mystery, like.
4
SPEAKER_01
I do.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, no, no, I know, but you just don t hear them as much.
4
SPEAKER_00
No, not enough.
4
SPEAKER_00
You don t hear them enough at all around relationships.
4
SPEAKER_00
You always feel mystery was something you had on date one or when you saw that person from across the room, right?
4
SPEAKER_00
Like that s when the mystery was and there isn t any, but I couldn t agree with you more that.
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SPEAKER_01
But that s because people prefer sometimes to create an illusion.
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of familiarity, as if I know you like you re the inside of my pocket.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
4
SPEAKER_01
Until you do something I absolutely did not expect you to do, and then suddenly I realize and I say, I thought I knew you.
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SPEAKER_01
The real beauty is to know that whoever is next to you, who you think is already so familiar and so known, is actually still somewhat mysterious, somewhat elusive.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that s where you maintain your curiosity next to the person that is with you.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, faced with the unknown, you can either react with fear and try to flatten it and just ignore all of that and just hold on to what s familiar, or you can nurture it and then you are actually engaging with the mystery and the curiosity that is right in front of you.
4
SPEAKER_01
And that you know from your spiritual work that is very much taken from that notion.
4
SPEAKER_01
How you then, because that allows you to sit like this when you re talking with your partner because you re still attentive and curious versus like this.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
4
SPEAKER_00
Let s say someone decides to break up or maybe they re broken up with and we can talk about both sides of that.
4
SPEAKER_00
if we talk about the side of someone s decided to break up with someone for their own reasons and of course there could be a million reasons for breaking up with someone so it s hard to be specific there but if someone s broken up with someone but they are having those feelings as you said the consequences will be you ll still have that grief of what could have been you have the consequences of
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SPEAKER_00
maybe could have worked maybe we should have tried that there s still a feeling of i wish they were still around i used to talk to them everyday at seven pm at night i used to on a friday night we d always go to this favorite restaurant whatever it may have been we have these memories.
4
SPEAKER_00
What do people do with that feeling what do you do with that feeling of craving.
4
SPEAKER_01
You know, you do a lot of different things, but it s so interesting.
4
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I literally edited a new episode for the podcast for Where Should We Begin of a guy who leaves his wife, who he had been very close to for quite a few years, has a young child,
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moves in with another woman, is on the verge a few years later of marrying that other woman and can t do it and has felt guilt and remorse and regret and longing for all those years and starts to meet the mother of his child again, not just as a mother,
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but now they re going on a first date again.
4
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And it s like, I left you and then I came back to you.
4
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It s an incredible story to see one person, because that is a question that doesn t have one answer.
4
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But in this case, he couldn t leave her fast enough, but he could never leave her fully.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I can t tell you today if he s back with her or what, but I have a sense that something when he was about to marry this other woman held him back, that he couldn t necessarily put into words and that made him feel like he had to examine himself, which is what this whole conversation on where should we begin is about.
4
SPEAKER_01
And I ve never had that particular version of it, but it is the one that most responds to your question, but you re going to have to go listen.
4
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
4
SPEAKER_00
No, and I recommend everyone go and listen to that if that s a question you ve been asking yourself.
4
SPEAKER_00
I think that heartache that people feel often feels endless, as you said.
4
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It can just go on and on and on forever.
4
SPEAKER_00
People feel like, we ve always heard, you know, time will heal all wounds, but
4
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Who instigated the breakup?
4
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It really changes a lot.
4
SPEAKER_01
Or if it was mutual.
4
SPEAKER_00
Is it ever mutual?
4
SPEAKER_00
Yes.
4
SPEAKER_01
I think that it is often mutual where two people say we evolved into something else or it just didn t work.
5
SPEAKER_00
Both people may have felt it, but one person was able to say, let s do it.
5
SPEAKER_01
That makes sense.
5
SPEAKER_00
And the person who is more afraid of abandonment and rejection and all of that is often more the person who may not say it, but that doesn t mean they didn t feel it.
5
SPEAKER_00
Many people tell you, I didn t have the guts to do it, but it s the best thing that happened to me.
5
SPEAKER_00
My partner pushed it.
5
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I didn t want it then.
5
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So between what happens in the moment
5
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and how people experience the consequence, it s not one and the same.
5
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The person who may have pushed it may be the one who has the most regret.
5
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The person who was more hesitant, it may be the one who actually is most liberated.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s a much more intricate puzzle than just... Of course, of course.
5
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What are some of the phases that you see people go through that can give people hope that there is another side to this?
5
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Because I think when you re in it,
5
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The emotion is, I m never going to be loved again.
5
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I ll never find someone as good as them again.
5
SPEAKER_01
I can t trust anyone again, right?
5
SPEAKER_01
Like these are the thoughts that people are repeating in their minds.
5
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What does someone need to understand during that time to know?
5
SPEAKER_00
You just made me think of another episode of this, but it s the daughter who describes how one day a truck came, took all of her father s stuff.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, never comes back home.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s a story that we hear quite often.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then all the situations of betrayal, of infidelity, of falling in love with somebody else or discovering that your partner, you know, wants a fundamentally different relationship than you.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I think that the situations where you are like completely sight lined and you realize, wow, the first experience you have is that your whole sense of reality is shattered.
5
SPEAKER_00
I thought I knew my life.
5
SPEAKER_00
This has nothing to do with where I thought I was at.
5
SPEAKER_00
How can this be happening to me?
5
SPEAKER_00
You re in a state of confusion, in a state of disbelief, and in a state of shock.
5
SPEAKER_00
And in a state where you feel like you ve been just ejected from your life.
5
SPEAKER_00
You had value and you have none.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s all part of betrayal.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s not just the lying.
5
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It s the fact that somebody could toss you away like that and that you think I don t matter.
5
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And that s what makes you much more afraid.
5
SPEAKER_00
Will I ever find someone who can hold me, carry?
5
SPEAKER_00
care and carry me, you know, and can I trust that ever again?
5
SPEAKER_00
Because I trusted it here.
5
SPEAKER_00
The question is as much about how do I trust again, but not just how do I trust somebody else, how do I trust my own perception?
5
SPEAKER_00
That s the piece that when you lose the belief in your ability to know that what you believe is what is,
5
SPEAKER_00
then you are on such shaky ground.
5
SPEAKER_00
So it demands a real scaffolding and a rebuilding.
5
SPEAKER_00
No, you haven t lost your entire sense of perception because you have good friends, family, colleagues, mentors.
5
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There s not just that person.
5
SPEAKER_00
And you need to get your sense of value from noticing the other relationships that you have.
5
SPEAKER_00
So you need to bring those people into your life.
5
SPEAKER_00
Do not isolate at that moment.
5
SPEAKER_00
You need the people who see you differently from the one who just left you.
5
SPEAKER_00
And those who seek you out, those who value your presence, those who think you re great, you know.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then slowly you often will find that you connect better with other people who have experienced a sense of betrayal like that.
5
SPEAKER_00
But betrayal is not only in fidelity, it can also be in a partnership, it can be in being co-founders of something.
5
SPEAKER_00
There are other relationships that go through this complete fracture.
5
SPEAKER_00
Slowly you begin to say it s not one person s harming me or hurting me that is a decree on who I am and my self-worth.
5
SPEAKER_00
That person hurt me deeply.
5
SPEAKER_00
I have been hurt and I learned from this.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I protect myself a little bit, but I don t have to protect myself in such a way that I don t live because the biggest victory on this kind of hurt is the ability to love again, to trust again.
5
SPEAKER_00
You did not take that from me.
5
SPEAKER_00
That is probably your biggest vengeance is to be happy.
5
SPEAKER_01
Wow.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
I mean that, that resonates very, very strongly.
5
SPEAKER_01
And first of all,
5
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Can people rebuild trust after experiencing infidelity?
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And what does that process look like for someone?
5
SPEAKER_01
And how different is it to what they expect it to be?
5
SPEAKER_00
The beauty of your questions is that it filled an entire book of mine because it s actually a big, big topic.
5
SPEAKER_00
But if I was to try to summarize it, yes, yes, of course people can rebuild trust.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, that is very, not everybody and not in every situation, but the process itself very much is real.
5
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And I have met, you know, I began State of Affair by going to talk to couples that I had seen five or 10 years earlier to know whatever happens to these people.
5
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Because I see them in a moment of crisis and often I don t know afterwards.
5
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You know, they decided to stay together, they worked it through and off they went.
5
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So I wanted to know what does that relationship actually look like years later?
5
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Who are they?
5
SPEAKER_00
What happened to their bond?
5
SPEAKER_00
You rebuild trust through a few major stages.
5
SPEAKER_00
The first one is that whoever hurt you, especially if you choose to stay together, has the ability to express guilt and remorse.
5
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for hurting you, even if they don t feel guilty for the affair itself.
5
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Even if they have a host of good explanations, good reasons that make it understandable, not justifiable, not condonable, but understandable.
5
SPEAKER_00
They still can experience the guilt and the remorse for hurting you.
5
SPEAKER_00
That acknowledgement is fundamental.
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It s fundamental in an intimate relationship, in a friendship, or between nations, for that matter.
5
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It s the ability to basically become what I call the vigilante of the relationship.
5
SPEAKER_00
It means it s your job now to say how much you value the relationship and to protect the relationship.
5
SPEAKER_00
So in the situation of an affair, for example, it means that instead of you re asking me questions about what I did and me hoping that you won t ask me because we ve already gone through this 10 times, I ask you, is there something you want to ask me?
5
SPEAKER_00
Because if I bring it up, rather than hoping you won t bring it up, then I m saying to you, I m owning my thing.
5
SPEAKER_00
I take responsibility.
5
SPEAKER_00
I care about the relationship.
5
SPEAKER_00
And most of the time, if we have a good day, you may say to me, I don t want to talk about it.
5
SPEAKER_00
I m having a good day because I am reminding us and I m not letting it be forgotten.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I m taking charge.
5
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That s the vigilante.
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SPEAKER_00
I m the protector of the relationship.
5
SPEAKER_00
And then number three is to explain
5
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to talk between the people.
5
SPEAKER_00
Why did you do this?
5
SPEAKER_00
What did it mean to you?
5
SPEAKER_00
And then what did it do to me?
5
SPEAKER_00
The affair always includes both sides.
5
SPEAKER_00
If you just talk about what it meant for you, you re missing a point.
5
SPEAKER_00
If we re just talking about what it did to me, we re missing a point.
5
SPEAKER_00
So the ability to not just look at the facts, what did you do, but the meaning of it.
5
SPEAKER_00
Affairs have meaning, they re stories.
5
SPEAKER_00
They tell us something about the person, about the relationship.
5
SPEAKER_00
Not always bad things for that matter.
5
SPEAKER_00
So what did it mean to you?
5
SPEAKER_00
And those three stages in the crisis phase, remorse, guilt, acknowledgement.
5
SPEAKER_00
In the insight phase, you are the vigilante and together we explore meaning making of this crisis for us.
5
SPEAKER_00
What are we going to do with this?
5
SPEAKER_00
And then phase three is if we do stay together, what s our vision for who we want to be?
5
SPEAKER_00
No, we will probably not go back to what we were because what we were may have been part of why we got to where we are.
5
SPEAKER_00
Who do we want to be?
5
SPEAKER_00
What does it open up?
5
SPEAKER_00
An affair topples the scorecard in a relationship.
5
SPEAKER_00
So I may have accepted all kinds of things because this was the way I conceived of our relationship.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I was willing to not work and I was willing to make more money.
5
SPEAKER_00
I was willing to work all the time.
5
SPEAKER_00
I was willing to do all the childcare.
5
SPEAKER_00
I was willing to do none of it.
5
SPEAKER_00
I was willing to take care of your ailing mother, of your addicted brother, whatever.
5
SPEAKER_00
I accepted a lot of things, but now this basically gives me the opportunity to also say, I also have discontent.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s not just your affair that expresses the discontent.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so here s the fundamental line.
5
SPEAKER_00
Most of us today in the West are going to have two or three relationships in our adult life or marriages.
5
SPEAKER_00
Some of us are going to do it with the same person.
5
SPEAKER_00
So sometimes the affair is the end of the first marriage or the first relationship, but it can be the beginning of the next one with each other.
5
SPEAKER_00
And that s the rebuilding of the trust.
6
SPEAKER_00
Well said.
6
SPEAKER_00
I m sure that s going to give people a lot of hope, but also what I love about your work and your books is that there s also a process there, there s a structure there, there s a method there for people to go, oh, okay, that s where we re at, that s what I m struggling with.
6
SPEAKER_00
I think one of the biggest thoughts that repeats in people s minds when they re broken up with or when they ve experienced infidelity that I hear from people is, Jay, I feel like I m not worthy anymore.
6
SPEAKER_00
I feel like I m not lovable again.
6
SPEAKER_00
I feel like I m not desirable.
6
SPEAKER_01
While they are staying with the person or while they ve broken up?
6
SPEAKER_00
Both.
6
SPEAKER_00
I ve heard people say, I don t feel desirable because they desire someone else, but I still want to be with that person.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I don t feel worthy even with that person now, because I m reminded constantly, as you said, of their infidelity.
6
SPEAKER_00
And these thoughts perpetuate.
6
SPEAKER_00
But what I m hearing you say, and I d love for you to guide us, is what I m hearing you say is, well, that s why you need to do the meaning making, because you really need to understand
6
SPEAKER_00
their story and meaning and yours, right now you re just focused on yours and that s always going to be this negative, repetitive pattern.
6
SPEAKER_03
Something that makes me crazy is when people say, well, I had this career before, but it was a waste.
6
SPEAKER_03
And that s where the perspective shift comes, that it s not a waste, that everything you ve done has built you to where you are now.
6
SPEAKER_03
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6
SPEAKER_03
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6
SPEAKER_03
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6
SPEAKER_03
We dive into how these women made their pivot and their mindset shifts that happened as a result.
6
SPEAKER_03
It s a podcast about women, their stories, and how their pivot became their success.
6
SPEAKER_03
Listen to She Pivots on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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SPEAKER_06
Tune in to the new podcast, Stories from the Village of Nothing Much, like easy listening, but for fiction.
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If you ve overdosed on bad news, we invite you into a world where the glimmers of goodness in everyday life are all around you.
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SPEAKER_06
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Listen to stories from the Village of Nothing Much on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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SPEAKER_05
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SPEAKER_04
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6
SPEAKER_04
Listen to The Bright Side from Hello Sunshine every weekday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
6
SPEAKER_01
You remind me of a couple I saw, and this man had done something that was really egregious in some way, because he had taken everything that was special to the relationship and shared it with the other person.
6
SPEAKER_01
But everything, their favorite places, restaurants, clothing.
6
SPEAKER_01
I mean, he had left nothing sacred.
6
SPEAKER_01
That s a devaluing, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
And whenever they would drive, there was a way when they would arrive to a place and she would look at him and it was like there too.
6
SPEAKER_01
And so he would dread it because he knew he was guilty as charged.
6
SPEAKER_01
And then I began to say to him, I want you every time you drive,
6
SPEAKER_01
When there is a place, you say yes.
6
SPEAKER_01
There too, without waiting for the question.
6
SPEAKER_01
Because you know that you have to stand accountable.
6
SPEAKER_01
But when there is a place not, you say, no, they re not.
6
SPEAKER_01
Before the question comes up, that s part of the vigilante.
6
SPEAKER_01
So that you protect the relationship and you bring back the value.
6
SPEAKER_01
You say, you know, now go create new places too, that are new for the two of you.
6
SPEAKER_01
And that you need new cells.
6
SPEAKER_01
You can t just go back and try to reenter the spaces that you were in.
6
SPEAKER_01
The loss of value gets addressed by having someone who is slowly reclaiming the value.
6
SPEAKER_01
The feeling is true, but it doesn t mean that because they had desire for someone else, they had none for you.
6
SPEAKER_01
Actually, sometimes they had desire for someone else because you had none for them.
6
SPEAKER_01
You know, the person who says that to you comes with one particular story, but there s so many stories.
6
SPEAKER_01
You know, sometimes you have a person who was completely uninterested for a decade, and then they are upset that their partner was interested with somebody else.
6
SPEAKER_01
It s not just
6
SPEAKER_01
You know, I was there available for you and you dumped me for someone that you looked at with a bigger, you know, founder eye.
6
SPEAKER_01
So what people experience after the betrayal doesn t always tell the story of what happened before.
6
SPEAKER_01
That s why the meaning making is so really important.
6
SPEAKER_01
You know, sometimes somebody is going to say to the other, you devalued me for 10 years.
6
SPEAKER_01
You barely paid any attention to me.
6
SPEAKER_01
You were so enraptured in your work.
6
SPEAKER_01
You were so busy with your phone.
6
SPEAKER_01
You were so, you know, you, I was abandoned long before, you know, and that also needs to be put into the story.
6
SPEAKER_01
The story doesn t start the moment that you discover something because there are a lot of moving pieces underneath and people addressing this with care.
6
SPEAKER_01
Carefulness and responsibility is the process.
6
SPEAKER_01
The hope doesn t come from nowhere.
6
SPEAKER_01
It comes because two people say, this is important.
6
SPEAKER_01
We build something.
6
SPEAKER_01
We ve been together five, 10, 15 years, 25 years.
6
SPEAKER_01
We re not letting this just go.
6
SPEAKER_01
Now we need to reclaim the value of this for both of us.
6
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely, this idea that we re going to have two to three relationships in our adult life and they could either be with the same person or of course with two to three different people.
6
SPEAKER_00
And I think this idea of choice and selection
6
SPEAKER_00
has obviously rapidly changed because of technology and apps and the amount of people you can bump into.
6
SPEAKER_00
I looked at studies saying that 25 years ago, most people ended up with someone within a five mile radius of where they grew up.
6
SPEAKER_00
We know that that s not the case anymore.
6
SPEAKER_00
People are moving countries for people, moving states.
6
SPEAKER_00
People are living in different parts of the world.
6
SPEAKER_00
We both live in different parts of the world than where we grew up.
6
SPEAKER_00
And so when I look at that, one of the biggest challenges I find or that I hear from people is because there s so much selection, there s a sense of like, I m not feeling any spark.
6
SPEAKER_00
I m not feeling any chemistry.
6
SPEAKER_00
I don t feel a connection with this person.
6
SPEAKER_00
I hear that a lot, and let s address that.
6
SPEAKER_00
And then the other thing I hear is this idea of like, you know, this guy didn t have as much as the other guy, and you start comparing it because you can, because you re just exposed to so many more people now.
6
SPEAKER_00
And you re almost comparing resumes of people that you ve heard about, spoken to, seen on a dating app, introduced through your friends.
6
SPEAKER_00
So this idea of choice and the paradox of choice, as it s always been called in studies, from products to people now,
6
SPEAKER_00
You know, we can get stuck at a grocery store wondering which product to buy, but in, in dating, it feels like you can keep going because you can just keep swiping.
6
SPEAKER_00
Let s talk about both of those.
6
SPEAKER_00
The idea of how do you choose?
6
SPEAKER_00
How do you select?
6
SPEAKER_00
And when you re choosing and selecting, how do you not feel that sense of there could be more?
6
SPEAKER_01
I said, choice comes with loss.
6
SPEAKER_01
I m actually very excited about this question because I m very interested in this at this moment, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
I m interested in the intersection of technology and relationships and mental health.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I ve just done a bunch of episodes with people in the days
7
SPEAKER_01
mating scene because of exactly this.
7
SPEAKER_01
So we have a frenzy of romantic consumerism in which in search of the perfect, people are no longer happy with the good.
7
SPEAKER_01
We have people looking for a soulmate on an app.
7
SPEAKER_01
That s an interesting combination between spirituality and capitalism.
7
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And how do we even think that a partner is a soulmate?
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A soulmate used to be God, you know, and now we want transcendence and mystery and wholeness and all of it, and ecstasy, almost, with a person.
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You know, the stuff that people looked for in the realm of the divine, they now want with their person.
7
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And at the same time, they re doing it with a checklist so that many dating experiences are like job interviews.
7
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So all of that combined, right?
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I do think we have more choice, but we also have a lot more uncertainty and a lot more self-doubt.
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And we are a lot less capable of handling uncertainty because we live
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with a host of predictive technologies that are all meant to take away uncertainties, obstacle, friction, you know, rough edges.
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So we don t rub anymore with stuff that helps us deal with uncertainty, unknown and engage with happenstance.
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You know, happenstance means you stand in line and you start talking to the person that is behind you in line.
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And after that, you go and have a drink with that person.
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And after that, you find yourself exchanging numbers and a story starts.
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Spontaneously, unprompted.
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So I think that the commodification that people feel is real.
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It s not just because of your childhood.
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It s part of society at this point.
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There is a way in which we talk about ourselves as products and there is a way in which we talk about ourselves online with followers as if we are religious leaders, you and me for that matter.
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So
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The first thing, don t go in thinking that you have to find somebody at the first meeting.
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That s not the way it works.
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And that you go down your list, and you know, and then if the first thing that goes wrong, you go, ick, and you just go on to the next.
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You know, what I m doing now, when I address this very question, is I show a very famous clip
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That s classic in psychology called the still face experiment.
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Have you ever seen it?
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No, I haven t.
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It s a two minute clip on YouTube.
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In the still face experiment, the mother is playing with the little one and the little one is cooing and showing her things and you know, and then at some point the mother goes still face.
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And the kid continues to point and continues to call her attention.
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And within 30 seconds or less of the mother not responding, the kid goes into a panic, a frenzy, loses its body composure, starts shrieking.
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And basically, you understand that we are relational people from
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And what this clip shows me is that this is what goes on in ghosting, in breadcrumbing, in checklisting.
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This is what is the experience of many people at this moment.
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You go, you have a hedonic treadmill, you meet someone, you think there s possibilities and then they...
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disappear on you and you re left like this and then you unravel and you do this sometimes 20 times a day with the same person.
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This is kind of the experience of modern dating.
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I haven t seen many people say I love it.
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You know, maybe 65% of meeting people meet on an app, but I don t see people saying I love it.
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Actually, it s the number one complaint of people dating at this moment.
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So
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Try to bring back something that is more humane.
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You meet somebody or a friend introduced you to someone, don t go and meet with them alone in a bar to have a face-to-face conversation, to go down and interview.
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Do an activity.
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It s exactly what you were talking about.
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Do something you enjoy doing.
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Bring that person to a thing that you re doing with friends.
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You want to get to know somebody, put them in a social situation.
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See how they interact with people, how they act, how they respond, how they engage with people.
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If you think that you re going to have epiphanies with
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Clarity like an app, forget it.
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You will be exhausted and you won t meet anybody.
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Really well said.
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And I could agree with you more.
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I m always trying to push people away.
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I m like, get out of your...
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inbox and your dm s and your messages and get out there there s no way talking to someone over a couple of messages is going to help you figure anything out but you ve probably spoken to so many people who ve had chemistry lost chemistry never had it i feel like a lot of people today that i hear from they re meeting people but they re like there s no spark there s no chemistry i m not feeling anything
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What should we want to feel if there is anything we should want to feel at all with someone?
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And what is the difference between chemistry, compatibility and connection?
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First of all, I think we need to differentiate.
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Are you looking for chemistry for a love story or are you looking for chemistry for a life story?
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Lots of people you can have chemistry with, have a fantastic night with for that matter or more, but that s not the person you necessarily want to make a life with.
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The project will determine the nature of the chemistry, right?
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That s number one.
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So number two is curiosity, a desire for more.
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I want to, you know, it s like you read a book.
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A person is a book, right?
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Or you can use other metaphors.
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Do you drag yourself through the next page?
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You know, I should, you know, let me see where it goes.
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Or like, you can t wait.
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You know, it s a page turner.
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If the experience of the page turner with the person, you want more, you want to have the next conversation, you want to ask them that kind of question, you want to go do something else with them, you re on a good track.
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You know, this notion of this instant combustion of emotion that fills you up, you want a religious experience.
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That is not always the case.
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Sometimes people fall like that, as we say.
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But the majority of the time, things grow.
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They grow through the interaction.
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You get a good text.
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You like what you just read.
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You find yourself wanting to answer a sentence, and you ve just answered two pages.
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You wanted to go and meet them for half an hour, and three hours later, you re still sitting on the floor in the hallway having an enthralling conversation.
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That s the stuff that breeds the feelings.
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If you sit there like this and think that some, you know, deus ex machina is going to fall from the heavens, you re off.
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You know, it s this false certainty that is not the majority of people.
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And there s many ways in.
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Some people start hot,
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and then they become lukewarm and some people start lukewarm and the heat grows over time.
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There isn t one narrative.
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This notion that Hollywood has sold us, that it s like, ah, and I can t wait.
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And I just have this, I fall for you on the spot.
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That s one plot.
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There are many plots.
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And if you constrain yourself in thinking, this is how I should be feeling and I m not feeling it, then you are limiting your options.
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Yeah.
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One thing that has really come up a lot with people I ve spoken to recently is this idea of they find someone who makes them feel safe, who they feel cared for by, and the person seems to be, they consider them to be good-hearted.
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That person makes- I m waiting for the but.
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SPEAKER_00
Yes, exactly.
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You already know.
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You already know.
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SPEAKER_00
This person, in their words, makes sense.
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but they feel like they re settling because there must be someone else who has all of that plus the other three things that they want.
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You are a perfect candidate for romantic consumerism, if you think this way.
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You ve been had.
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You ve been, literally, you ve become a good person that I can, we can, you know, your mind is set for somebody telling you, this is the product you need.
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The perfect fit.
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And then you are going to be the perfect patient who comes in thinking, I thought my person was like this and this and this, and they re not the deal that I bargained for.
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It s not what was written on paper.
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You can leave the language.
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It s like business.
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You know, capitalism enters romantic life.
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It s really crippling to people.
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Do you know, the more you have this notion of perfection, the higher you can fall.
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You know, are you perfect?
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Are you that great?
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Do you think that everybody falls for it?
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Like, what is this notion?
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So then there is this idea that there is the sense and settling with the passion, you know, and you should have that passion.
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Passion is a wonderful feeling to have.
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It s maybe not the best thing to decide if you want to have a life with somebody on.
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It s not the most important ingredient for that.
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You know, that doesn t mean you don t want.
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excitement, intensity, you know, draw.
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But this idea that there is reason and passion, that s a very old divide.
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That s the, that is the divide of the 19th century, the rationalists and the romantics.
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And why do you say that?
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Why do you think that?
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And I, and I get that you re giving a balanced approach there, but to enlighten us in
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what you ve seen, you compared the love story and the life story.
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Why do you think it almost feels like what we ve been sold is for the love story, but the life story requires a different set of skills?
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Yes, skills and values and compatibilities.
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Because there are many more people that you can love than people you can make a life with.
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I can have many love stories with people that I meet on a trip that I, you know, with whom I have a beautiful short story with.
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But would that be the person with whom I can, do we share anything else in terms of how we see life?
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With everything else that life brings?
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That s a different thing.
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That doesn t mean you don t want love in the life story.
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But many more love stories can exist without life story.
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not that many life stories will exist without a love story.
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You know, you can call it an adventure, you can call it, you know, and it is what people used to do when they did before they looking for someone with whom they want to have a more committed relationship.
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It s very important that we see that a lot of the things that we re looking for are the things that make for a real
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love story, the things we want to feel, the things that are on the checklist are the things that we ve kind of created an impossible situation.
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It s really, so you don t settle.
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If you see that language says what I am fantastic.
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you know, or I am not fantastic, but I m going to find someone fantastic who s going to make me rise.
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And it is a kind of use of people that really is creating such a psychological paucity.
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It s really eroding people s sense of self-esteem and sense of self-worth.
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It s not good.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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Where are you at in your life?
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At 23, you re going to think differently from 33.
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You know, at 33, it s likely that you re going to think of a few people that you said no to at 23 that were perfectly fine.
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And you kind of didn t because you kept thinking, I can do better.
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And this, I can do better, is eating people up.
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because it creates constant restlessness in relationships, in life, in pursuit.
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And then they need to go and meditate to get calmer, to be less restless.
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But the restlessness is this constant pursuit of more, better, younger, and therefore living with the feeling, not enough.
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I don t have enough.
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I m not enough.
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And that s the crisis that then follows around self-worth.
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Because you constantly want more, you end up constantly feeling not enough.
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And someone else will make me feel more than enough.
8
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Yes, the evaluation, you know, the meaning of finding the love partner today is that it will end my sense of constant self-evaluation.
8
SPEAKER_01
I m evaluating myself, I m presenting myself, I m selling myself, I m trying to compete on the market.
8
SPEAKER_01
It s like language, you know, the romantic language is about the market, you know, the meat.
8
SPEAKER_01
And then when I find you, my beloved, I will finally stop the process of evaluation.
8
SPEAKER_01
This is a thing from Eva Illouz, a great sociologist that studies love relationships.
8
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That s such a beautiful language as well, that you want to end your process of evaluation when actually a life story is an evolution of self-evaluation.
8
SPEAKER_00
It s only going to come with more.
8
SPEAKER_00
Do you see there being inherent value in long-term committed relationships or is that also a construct of society?
8
SPEAKER_01
I see, look, I work very cross-culturally, right?
8
SPEAKER_01
So I don t think the answer is the same if I am in Belgium, in India, in Turkey, but I think there is a lot of value in a long-term relationship, but the long-term relationship has doubled in lifespan.
8
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So a hundred years ago, we lived half of now.
8
SPEAKER_01
So the long-term gets, keeps on getting longer.
8
SPEAKER_01
But there is also tremendous value in having had the possibility of finally being able to end this and to start anew or to never have had it and to start anew.
8
SPEAKER_01
People who marry for the first time in their 60s or people who realize that they had a beautiful relationship for certain things and that now they needed something else.
8
SPEAKER_01
Marriage was an institution that you couldn t leave.
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You got in and you got in for life.
8
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And if you didn t like it, you could hope for an early death of your partner, you know.
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SPEAKER_01
Because that was the only way out, and especially for women.
8
SPEAKER_01
I mean, marriage has not meant the same for men and women.
8
SPEAKER_01
Marriage for same-sex people is very recent.
8
SPEAKER_01
So the question has a lot of different pieces.
8
SPEAKER_01
I think that there is something very beautiful in a long novel.
8
SPEAKER_01
And I think that there are beautiful short stories.
8
SPEAKER_01
There isn t a one-size-fits-all at this moment.
8
SPEAKER_01
And the interesting thing is we ve been creative about a lot of things.
8
SPEAKER_01
We disrupt, we are creative about even family life.
8
SPEAKER_01
We have blended families, same-sex families, single-parent families, accordion families.
8
SPEAKER_01
But when it comes to romantic couples, romanticism, the exclusiveness, the monogamous long-term model has been the dominant model for two centuries and is quite strong.
8
SPEAKER_01
So I think we can be more creative.
8
SPEAKER_01
And in rethinking relational arrangements and relationship arrangements that are more diverse and that bring in other people as in the community.
8
SPEAKER_01
Because what is happening in the long-term relationship of today is not only that it is much longer, but it is also much more isolated.
8
SPEAKER_00
Longer and lonelier.
8
SPEAKER_01
Longer and lonelier.
8
SPEAKER_01
One person to give us what normally an entire village should provide.
8
SPEAKER_01
And that is crippling the relationships under so much weight and so many expectations.
8
SPEAKER_01
So those who do it well, do it better than the relationships of the past, says Eli Finkel.
8
SPEAKER_01
But the majority of them don t manage to climb the Olympus.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I, you know, I often think about that because I think what we were talking about earlier, when I first met my wife, I definitely say that there was so much of the romanticism of the perfect relationship.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I often talk about in my book as well about how I proposed to my wife, which was basically based off of Instagram and YouTube videos, how I invented a proposal that was so not personal or not.
8
SPEAKER_01
She liked it?
8
SPEAKER_00
Well, I ll tell you, I ll tell you what happened.
8
SPEAKER_00
So, and if anyone s heard this story before, I apologize, but I want to have the context.
8
SPEAKER_00
So we d been together, I think at that point for like, maybe I proposed off like a couple of years.
8
SPEAKER_00
And so we d been together.
8
SPEAKER_00
I decided I was going to propose.
8
SPEAKER_00
We were walking down the bank of the river Thames in London.
8
SPEAKER_00
I had an acapella group jumped out and sing Bruno Mars, Will You Marry Me, like, marry you to her.
8
SPEAKER_00
They gave her a bouquet of flowers.
8
SPEAKER_00
They performed this amazing number.
8
SPEAKER_00
I got down on one knee.
8
SPEAKER_00
I proposed.
8
SPEAKER_00
We both shed a tear.
8
SPEAKER_00
She said yes.
8
SPEAKER_00
We then had dinner on the side of the Thames where I had to kind of finagle a table from a restaurant.
8
SPEAKER_00
I had food that was brought in, but it was cold because everything had gone wrong on the timing.
8
SPEAKER_00
So we ate cold food, which was, we didn t mind.
8
SPEAKER_00
My wife is amazing, so she didn t care.
8
SPEAKER_00
But I was looking at that going, hmm.
8
SPEAKER_00
And then we walked around the corner, and we ended up on a white horse-drawn carriage that I d booked that took us around London on this beautiful carriage.
8
SPEAKER_00
And it was a beautiful trip.
8
SPEAKER_00
And then we got on the train to go back to her parents.
8
SPEAKER_00
And we got home to her parents.
8
SPEAKER_00
Her parents opened the door, and they said, what happened to you to her?
8
SPEAKER_00
She had hives all over her face, because that was the day I discovered that she was allergic to horses.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I didn t know that, and she didn t know that.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I ve always looked back and reflected at that story because my wife said, yes, she s never complained about it.
8
SPEAKER_00
She was happy with it.
8
SPEAKER_00
But when I really look at it and as I ve got to know her more and more every year, and like you said, I feel like I get to know more of her new things and old things every year.
8
SPEAKER_00
We ve been together for 10 years now.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I still feel like every day I m discovering something new about her.
8
SPEAKER_00
I realized that that was the most impersonal show of love ever.
8
SPEAKER_00
The song wasn t specific to her, the horse-drawn carriage wasn t specific to her, the food was the only thing my wife would care about because she s a big foodie and that s her world, and it was cold.
8
SPEAKER_00
And I look back at that event and I go, I m lucky she said yes, but actually the hives were a reminder to me of how little I knew my wife.
8
SPEAKER_00
at that time.
8
SPEAKER_01
And how eager you were to impress.
8
SPEAKER_00
How eager, exactly.
8
SPEAKER_00
I was a complete show of ego.
8
SPEAKER_00
How old?
8
SPEAKER_00
I was 20, maybe 6, 27.
8
SPEAKER_00
And just what a show it was as opposed to.
8
SPEAKER_01
Did you come from traditional families?
8
SPEAKER_00
I would say we come from more traditional families.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yes, yeah, definitely.
8
SPEAKER_00
They re modern thinking but generally traditional overall in the world.
8
SPEAKER_01
Were they arranged marriages?
8
SPEAKER_00
My mom and dad were and pretty much hers was as well.
8
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, pretty much her parents were as well.
8
SPEAKER_01
So that s a major transition.
8
SPEAKER_01
So when you ask me about long-term relationships,
9
SPEAKER_01
I think people who are in an arranged marriage system answer that question very differently than people who start with the romantic.
9
SPEAKER_01
You know what the research says, right?
9
SPEAKER_00
I ve seen bits, but please clarify.
9
SPEAKER_01
I think it s Dan Ariely s research that people who start with romantic and falling in love and passion are much more likely to then experience a dissatisfaction in the relationship than the majority of people who start in an arranged situation, which is much more rational.
9
SPEAKER_01
actually their satisfaction rises as they get to know each other and develop the fondness and the relationship.
9
SPEAKER_01
And I think this is true if the relationship is good.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, if it s good.
9
SPEAKER_01
But for those for whom it was really not a good match, it must be... Horrific.
9
SPEAKER_01
Horrific.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I think the reason why I was sharing that story was because I think what I ve realized, and you were mentioning this earlier, is that I feel like I found the person
9
SPEAKER_00
who has helped me continue self-evaluation in a way that I would have avoided with someone else or that I would have tried to avoid if I would have had multiple love stories.
9
SPEAKER_00
Whereas this life story that I have with my wife currently,
9
SPEAKER_00
is just the most purifying and cleansing, detoxifying process internally, but in the most fun, loving and caring way.
9
SPEAKER_00
And I look at that and I think about that often where I think to myself, I would have had to learn these lessons with anyone.
9
SPEAKER_00
But maybe someone else may not be able to challenge me as much as my wife does with the lack of criticism and complaint and judgment in a safe space with humor, which actually makes it
9
SPEAKER_00
accessible to me.
9
SPEAKER_00
And it s one of these really interesting reflections I wanted to share with you to hear your thoughts on that.
9
SPEAKER_00
Because I don t think I would, there are so many skills today that I have only because I married this particular person.
9
SPEAKER_00
There are so many emotional parts of myself that I ve been able to discover because of this person.
9
SPEAKER_00
There have been so many, you know.
9
SPEAKER_01
You know what you re telling me in some way is you didn t succeed in impressing her.
9
SPEAKER_00
I ve never succeeded in impressing my wife.
9
SPEAKER_00
And that s her power.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_01
You know, I mean, not that you re not impressive to her and that she doesn t appreciate and admire, but you didn t succeed.
9
SPEAKER_00
Till this day.
9
SPEAKER_01
And therefore her opinion matters.
9
SPEAKER_01
And therefore she can keep you on your toes.
9
SPEAKER_01
And therefore she doesn t let you sit on your laurels and get away with stuff.
9
SPEAKER_01
And therefore she can see you in a more humble way when you come home from having done 40
9
SPEAKER_01
the stage events after another where you get you know clapped the whole time and you kind of lose a sense of you know proportions and that is an extremely I think that you re very lucky and not just lucky because you found her but also because you knew
9
SPEAKER_01
You knew that you did need someone who challenges you and who can hold hers to you, but do it in a way that doesn t feel authoritarian or humiliating or ball busting, et cetera.
9
SPEAKER_01
And so it creates the right friction.
9
SPEAKER_01
She cares and she can criticize.
9
SPEAKER_01
She loves and she can challenge.
9
SPEAKER_01
You know, it s both ends and that holding those tensions in a relationship is,
9
SPEAKER_01
in my mind, very important and very, um, gives a lot of strength and energy to a relationship.
9
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
9
SPEAKER_00
I think, yeah.
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SPEAKER_00
Oh, sorry, please go on.
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SPEAKER_01
No, no, that s it.
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I think it s your self-awareness of it that is really good.
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It s like, if you had somebody who just looks like that, it would have been a problem.
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If you had somebody who just did that, it would have been a problem, but you knew that you needed that.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, and I don t think I knew it before we started having that experience, but it just became really evident to me that she loves me for who I am, not what I do and what I achieve and how I try to impress, for example.
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SPEAKER_00
And I think that s a great reminder for me to love myself for who I am and not love myself for what I achieve or what I do or what I create.
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SPEAKER_00
And I think that that is a really, I m like,
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It s very important.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, to have some, yeah.
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And it s also how you perceive it.
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I think what you re saying is true.
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Like, I ve talked about it with people.
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I could easily perceive it and people could perceive it and say, Jay, you re just a pushover.
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SPEAKER_00
Jay, you re just, you know, making it up.
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SPEAKER_00
You re making sense of something and it s bad treatment or whatever.
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And I m like, well, no, because I can see that it s done from love and care and it s humor, as you said.
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SPEAKER_00
Like, it s done from such a special loving place that I feel, that I know, it s a knowingness.
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that it is liberating and it is wonderful.
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SPEAKER_00
But it s interesting because I think a lot of people may have that experience, but they don t want to be humble.
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They don t want to access that point.
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And I m fortunate that my monk training kicks in there and allows for that vulnerability and self-reflection and not thinking I m perfect.
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Whereas I wonder if that s... We re scared to do that because we almost want our partner to make us feel perfect.
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SPEAKER_01
No, I think that this thing of perfection is, I think we want our partners to recognize us and accept us in our imperfection.
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But it comes in the form of, at least in the beginning, demanding adoration and honor.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, but the beginning is only the beginning.
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It s one phase of a relationship.
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SPEAKER_01
You know, I think my friend Terry Reill has this beautiful definition, self-esteem or self-worth.
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or self-confidence is seeing ourselves as flawed, imperfect people and still hold ourselves in high regard.
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If you actually need to see yourself as perfect, you lack the confidence.
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The confidence is the ability to make mistakes and not to not sleep over it for three weeks because you feel such shame and such, you know, intense attack on your identity.
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SPEAKER_01
But I have a question for you that, from what you ve just said, do you feel that these days on both sides of, on all sides of the spectrum, of the gender spectrum, that people,
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are so enraptured with the notion of identity and holding on to the self that they find accepting influence from another person an instant threat to their identity, like pushover.
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SPEAKER_01
Pushover is like, you know, it s a power dynamic instantly when you use that word.
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SPEAKER_01
You know, if you accept what your wife says, what kind of a man are you, right?
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SPEAKER_01
You re just a pushover.
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SPEAKER_01
That s more in the masculine version.
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SPEAKER_01
Women have it in the, but it is along the whole spectrum.
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SPEAKER_01
Something about the way we are so busy protecting our egos
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is making everything that involves letting someone else actually have influence over us, which is part of what being in a relationship is about, as an attack.
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SPEAKER_00
Yeah, I mean, I d love to discuss this with you and my reflection from what you were saying, and I was nodding along because there s so much of it that I agree with, I think that
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SPEAKER_00
What I see is most of us struggle to know ourself when we get into a relationship.
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SPEAKER_00
So I think I d propose that I don t think most people have a lot of self-awareness when they get into a romantic relationship.
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SPEAKER_00
So they don t actually have a conscious sense of self-identity.
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SPEAKER_00
We have a subconscious sense of self-identity in the sense of what our parents taught us and what family and media, we have all this mix of stuff, but we wouldn t,
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SPEAKER_00
if I asked someone to lay out their top 10 values, they wouldn t be able to do that because they d be like, I m not sure.
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SPEAKER_00
And what ends up happening, I think, in that scenario is you adopt the values of the other person.
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SPEAKER_00
And then at some point you go, wait a minute, I ve just been doing what you want.
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SPEAKER_00
And you think that person made you adopt their values, but actually you just didn t know yours.
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SPEAKER_00
And so I think you see that happen in some relationships.
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SPEAKER_00
In other relationships, I think what you re saying is true.
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People are so...
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definitive about their own self-identity that they go into a relationship going, I m not going to get influenced at all by this person.
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SPEAKER_00
And I think that also happens because we re getting into long-term relationships later in life.
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SPEAKER_00
So if you re going into a relationship later in life, chances are you actually have
9
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You know who you are and what you want to do and what you re building and what s important to you.
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SPEAKER_00
When you re younger, you re less self-aware.
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SPEAKER_00
When you re older, hopefully you re somewhat more self-aware.
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And so you re more concrete in your ideology.
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SPEAKER_01
But the opposite could be equally true.
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SPEAKER_00
The opposite could be equally true.
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SPEAKER_01
When you re young, you think you know everything and you re certain about stuff you have no certainty about.
9
SPEAKER_00
Totally.
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SPEAKER_01
And when you get older, you actually become more flexible because you realize that there isn t one way for everything.
9
SPEAKER_00
Totally, exactly.
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SPEAKER_00
So it can be both ways.
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SPEAKER_00
And I think overall, I think the point that at least I think we re trying to get to, which I like, is that it s a bit of both.
9
SPEAKER_00
There s, there s, it s almost like I read, I m trying to find this poem and I can t find it ever since I read it.
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SPEAKER_00
It s one of those, and I m sharing it here because hopefully someone finds it.
9
SPEAKER_00
I read this poem while I was researching and there was this beautiful poet and I can t find it.
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SPEAKER_00
I ve like, I ve like looked for it and everything, but this poet was talking about how
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SPEAKER_01
When you are single, you ve been building your home with the bricks that you were given.
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SPEAKER_01
And your home is broken, and some of it s beautiful, because that s how we are as people.
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SPEAKER_01
Some parts of our home make sense, and some parts of the bricks are falling out.
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SPEAKER_01
And he said, when you come into a relationship, you want the other person to move into your home.
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SPEAKER_01
You want them to come to your home and the other person wants you to go to their home.
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SPEAKER_01
But actually what you need to do is take the bricks you both like from your own homes and build a new home together.
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SPEAKER_01
And I really love that visual, the idea that this unified agreement, which was the language you used, or this idea that you re saying of like, how much do I allow the influence without feeling powerless, but to feel like we re co-creating something.
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SPEAKER_01
You know, my wife and I have a lot of agreements that they re not rules or contracts, but they re agreements of how we deal with certain things.
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SPEAKER_01
And it s something we ve created together.
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SPEAKER_01
It s not something we adopted from my parents, her parents, or anywhere else.
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SPEAKER_01
And I feel that if we walked into a relationship and said, what do we want to build together?
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SPEAKER_01
What do we want to create together?
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SPEAKER_01
What does a good, healthy relationship mean to us?
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SPEAKER_01
To me, those questions at least feel empowering as opposed to draining of power.
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SPEAKER_06
One of the complementarities in relationships is that we are often drawn to a person who brings characteristics that we are trying to get away from.
10
SPEAKER_01
So true.
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SPEAKER_01
So true.
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SPEAKER_01
You understand?
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, so true.
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SPEAKER_06
So it s a, I mean, when it s dynamic, it s really a very beautiful, you know,
10
SPEAKER_06
Kneading of the dough.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
10
SPEAKER_01
So Wester, throughout our conversation, you ve been referencing this new course of yours, which I m so excited for people to do, because I feel like so many of what things we ve discovered today with your books and your work.
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SPEAKER_06
Demand practice.
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SPEAKER_01
Yes, exactly.
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SPEAKER_01
How do you actually apply it?
10
SPEAKER_01
So please tell us where we can find this course and the name of the course and where it is.
10
SPEAKER_06
Turning conflict into connection.
10
SPEAKER_06
It s a one hour, eight videos with a fantastic workbook that really not just helps you fight better and more constructively, but also helps you relate better.
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SPEAKER_06
Because if you have a different attitude towards conflict, you have a whole different relationship.
10
SPEAKER_06
It s on my website, estherperl.com and it s coming out October 10.
10
SPEAKER_01
Okay, amazing.
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SPEAKER_01
Well, I recommend everyone who s listening and watching, make sure you go and check out the course.
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SPEAKER_01
If you ve loved this conversation, I know you re going to get so much value from it, so much insight.
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SPEAKER_01
And of course, make sure you go and take a look at all of Esther s books as well.
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SPEAKER_01
So please check those out.
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SPEAKER_01
I want to do one last thing, Esther, with you.
10
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
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SPEAKER_01
Because you did our final five last time.
10
SPEAKER_06
Yeah, because when we don t fight, I want you to play.
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SPEAKER_06
And so first I created the game.
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SPEAKER_06
I said, let s play.
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SPEAKER_01
I love it.
10
SPEAKER_01
This is Esther s beautiful game, Where Should We Begin?
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SPEAKER_01
A Game of Stories by Esther Perel.
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SPEAKER_01
If you don t have this, grab it too.
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SPEAKER_01
We re going to pick a couple of cards and have some fun with this.
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SPEAKER_01
Open it like a chocolate box.
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SPEAKER_01
Oh, there we go.
10
SPEAKER_01
I m Belgian.
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SPEAKER_01
I love chocolate, so you speak in my language completely.
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SPEAKER_01
We are too.
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SPEAKER_01
I m going to take this out and we re going to shuffle these cards.
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SPEAKER_01
And then what do we do?
10
SPEAKER_01
Pick one at random?
10
SPEAKER_06
Yes, we pick.
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SPEAKER_06
Look, this is, you know, relationships are stories.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_06
And we tell stories about ourselves to people at every level.
10
SPEAKER_06
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_06
And we recreate connection, intimacy, and fun.
10
SPEAKER_01
You pick.
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SPEAKER_01
This is fun.
10
SPEAKER_01
Oh, I m picking first?
10
SPEAKER_01
Let s start.
10
SPEAKER_01
You hold it, you shuffle it too, then I ll, to make sure.
10
SPEAKER_01
Everyone knows that this is truly random.
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SPEAKER_01
I want to have some fun and I love stuff like this.
10
SPEAKER_01
So I love games.
10
SPEAKER_01
I love play.
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SPEAKER_01
One of my wife s and I s favorite things to do is we play a lot of pickleball right now.
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SPEAKER_06
Will you write to me after you ve played with her?
10
SPEAKER_01
Escape rooms.
10
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, definitely.
10
SPEAKER_01
I d love to.
10
SPEAKER_01
All right.
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SPEAKER_06
Off we go.
10
SPEAKER_01
Okay.
10
SPEAKER_06
If you don t like it, you pick another.
10
SPEAKER_01
Oh, OK.
10
SPEAKER_01
Is that how it works?
10
SPEAKER_06
Well, it works now.
10
SPEAKER_01
I want to do a few.
10
SPEAKER_01
I ll do a few because they re quick.
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SPEAKER_01
So, at a party, you ll find me is the prompt.
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SPEAKER_01
And so, at a party, you ll find me finding the one person I can have a deep, meaningful conversation with, sitting in the corner with them and having existential conversations for the whole night and people may not even know I was at the party.
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SPEAKER_06
That would be me.
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SPEAKER_01
Really?
10
SPEAKER_01
So then we d just be sitting next to each other.
10
SPEAKER_01
Great.
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SPEAKER_01
I love that.
10
SPEAKER_01
So I d do that with you.
10
SPEAKER_01
I love it.
10
SPEAKER_01
Awesome.
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SPEAKER_01
Oh, me again.
10
SPEAKER_01
Oh, you re like poking that out to me.
10
SPEAKER_01
This is like... I caught it.
10
SPEAKER_01
There we go.
10
SPEAKER_01
All right.
10
SPEAKER_01
Oh, wow.
10
SPEAKER_01
If I could change something about the way I was raised, it would be... So the easy answer, the first thing that came to mind is I wouldn t change anything because I m really happy with the human I am today and how my life has gone the way it has.
10
SPEAKER_01
I really think that is my honest answer, but if I could change something about the way I was raised.
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SPEAKER_06
And it doesn t just have to be your family.
10
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, I would say it would be, I would have loved earlier on to know that there were so many more careers and paths in the world.
10
SPEAKER_01
So when I met the monks when I was 18 years old, that was the first time my mind was open to that path.
10
SPEAKER_01
But it took me years to recognize that you could have a career in media or that you could have a career in
10
SPEAKER_01
Do this.
10
SPEAKER_01
Do this.
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SPEAKER_01
Like I never thought, I never knew any of that.
10
SPEAKER_01
Like I literally thought there were like three, it sounds ridiculous, but I was so limited in my thinking growing up because of what I was surrounded by.
10
SPEAKER_01
I would change that.
10
SPEAKER_01
I want people to know that there are so many different, I didn t know you could be a therapist.
10
SPEAKER_01
I didn t know you could be a neuroscientist.
10
SPEAKER_01
I didn t know you could be, I would have wanted to be a neuroscientist if I knew that existed.
10
SPEAKER_06
I didn t know I can be a therapist outside my office.
10
SPEAKER_06
I ve worked in a field that is very confidential.
10
SPEAKER_06
I could never talk about what I did.
10
SPEAKER_06
And through the podcast, I m able to work with people who are not patients, will never be.
10
SPEAKER_06
And so I can actually bring what is happening between the four walls to the world and bring the world inside the office.
10
SPEAKER_06
And you can be a fly on the wall in someone else s session.
10
SPEAKER_01
Amazing.
10
SPEAKER_01
So just to remind everyone, the game is called Where Should We Begin?
10
SPEAKER_01
You can also, or the game as well, play with your friends and family.
10
SPEAKER_06
With your friends, with your dates, with your partner, you grab a few cards, you put in your pocket, you can leave the box.
10
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
10
SPEAKER_06
And off you go into storyline.
10
SPEAKER_01
I love it.
10
SPEAKER_01
And you can surprise someone with chocolates in it too.
10
SPEAKER_06
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
10
SPEAKER_06
You can mix and match.
10
SPEAKER_01
I love it.
10
SPEAKER_01
Este, it s been such an honor, honestly, talking to you.
10
SPEAKER_01
I feel so, it s really interesting when you talk to someone and you just feel like,
10
SPEAKER_01
You ve immersed yourself so deeply in this space for so many decades and the wisdom shines through your words, it shines through your empathy, at the same time your assertiveness.
10
SPEAKER_01
I am so grateful that you do what you do for the world.
10
SPEAKER_01
Honestly, I learned so much from you.
10
SPEAKER_01
I learned so much from your work.
10
SPEAKER_01
I m a student of your work and I honestly feel humbled and grateful that I ve got to spend this time with you.
10
SPEAKER_01
And I highly encourage everyone to go and immerse themselves in your world in all ways.
10
SPEAKER_01
So thank you so much for the gift that you offer to the world.
10
SPEAKER_01
I really mean that.
10
SPEAKER_06
Thank you.
10
SPEAKER_01
It means a lot.
10
SPEAKER_01
I mean it.
10
SPEAKER_01
Thank you.
10
SPEAKER_01
If you love this episode, you re going to love my conversation with Matthew Hussey on how to get over your ex and find true love in your relationships.
10
SPEAKER_00
People should be compassionate to themselves, but extend that compassion to your future self.
10
SPEAKER_00
Because truly extending your compassion to your future self is doing something that gives him or her a shot at a happy and a peaceful life.
10
SPEAKER_05
Hey, everybody, welcome to Across Generations, where the voices of Black women unite.
10
SPEAKER_05
I m your host, Tiffany Cross.
10
SPEAKER_05
Join me and be a part of sisterhood, friendship, wisdom, and laughter.
10
SPEAKER_05
We gather a seasoned elder, myself as the middle generation, and a vibrant young soul for engaging intergenerational conversations, prepare to engage or hear perspectives that literally no one else has had.
10
SPEAKER_05
Listen to Across Generations podcasts on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
10
SPEAKER_02
Hey, it s me, Blippi, and this is my best friend, Mika.
10
SPEAKER_02
Hi, I m Mika, and this is our brand new podcast, Blippi and Mika s Road Trip.
10
SPEAKER_02
The Blippi Mobile will take us to amazing places.
10
SPEAKER_02
And we ll meet new friends along the way.
10
SPEAKER_02
Listen to Blippi and Mika s Road Trip podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
10
SPEAKER_02
You don t put those inside of you, do you?
10
SPEAKER_04
This is a show about women.
10
SPEAKER_02
I mean, you do?
10
SPEAKER_04
Finally, a show about women that isn t just a thinly veiled aspirational nightmare.
10
SPEAKER_04
It s not hosted, not narrated.
10
SPEAKER_04
We re just dropping into a woman s world.
10
SPEAKER_03
I found out when my dad was gay when I was 10.
10
SPEAKER_03
We were in a convertible on the 405 freeway, listening to the B-52s.
10
SPEAKER_03
Looking back, I should have said, this is gay.
10
SPEAKER_03
This is already all gay.
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SPEAKER_04
Listen to finally a show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.