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Hey, my friend, thank you so much for being here.
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I wanted to ask you for a quick request before we get started with today s episode.
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Apple decided to shake things up a bit and you may no longer be following the School of Greatness, but luckily there s an easy fix.
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So really quick, if you can double check for me that you re not missing out on greatness.
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Just go to your app on Apple podcast and hit follow on the top right hand corner of the School of Greatness show page on Apple podcasts.
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Once you click the follow button on the top right corner, you re all set to get updated with the latest and greatest here from the School of Greatness.
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greatness and if you haven t already make sure to leave a quick review while you re there your thoughts matter to me I read all the reviews and I m so grateful that you re here thanks so much now let s jump into this episode because people haven t experienced love
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they don t know how to notice and receive it when it arrives knocking on their doorstep.
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Conscious love.
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Conscious love, because you ve never received love without guilt or love without shame or conditioning.
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Or needing to achieve or do something, right?
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Yeah, and then now when you get it, when someone gives it to you, it goes over your head and you get scared by it.
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Welcome to the School of Greatness.
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My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur.
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And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness.
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Thanks for spending some time with me today.
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Now let the class begin.
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So, here we are at another episode of Awkward Therapy.
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You guys loved it, and me and Lewis love doing this together.
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We both come from different backgrounds, different walks of life, and we love to find topics that there s healthy debate over, there s a bit of controversy, maybe there s a bit of conflict.
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I love the feedback we got from the last one we did on polyamory and monogamy.
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If you ve not heard that one, check it out.
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And we re back to do Awkward Therapy, and we decided to call this Awkward Therapy because
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Sometimes we feel awkward doing it and we re both not therapists.
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Yeah.
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We re two human beings with mistakes and history sharing practical wisdom.
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Yeah.
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And figuring things out together.
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Like I think when I sit down with you, the reason why we started this is these are the conversations we have anyway.
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Behind the scenes, when people aren t watching us, we re like, oh man, people would probably be fascinated with this.
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And I think we ve done, what, four episodes now?
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And each one, people are just like, this is fascinating.
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More people need to talk about these things.
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Absolutely.
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And I feel like these are the conversations that people are having, but then we re scared of having them publicly, or we re scared to say, this is what I feel, or this is what I think, because it kind of makes everyone awkward and uncomfortable.
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It is.
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Yeah.
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And so that s why it s Awkward Therapy.
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You might get pushback on some of your opinions and things like that.
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So, you know, this is a, it s a fun time.
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I get excited every time.
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Yeah.
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Me and Lewis last year pretty much managed to play pickleball together.
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We got into a really good run.
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And so what we do is we play pickleball, we eat, and then we have these conversations.
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So it s an amazing time.
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Yeah.
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It s a good time.
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All right.
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So let s dive in.
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So today s topic is
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Love and money.
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I m excited, man.
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There are so many things to dive into.
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We re going to talk about everything from who should pay on the first day through to should you sign a prenup, should you... Shared expenses, living together, all that stuff.
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All of it.
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Where do we start?
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Who should pay on the first date?
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Man, well, I mean, you think in the, in the, in the past, when I was, when I was growing up, I mean, when I was like, I m 40 now.
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And so 20, I guess, 20 years ago, when I started dating,
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I didn t really have any money, but the girl didn t have any money either.
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But it was always thought like, OK, you have to take her out and you have to pay for it.
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That was the thought 20 years ago for me.
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It was like what my sisters told me, make sure you re a gentleman, make sure you show up, make sure you offer to pay for the hamburger, whatever you re going.
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That s a 21-year-old or something.
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Where were you going, McDonald s?
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I was living in St.
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Louis at the time and there s a place called Steak and Shake.
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It s amazing.
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So like a, like a burger and a milkshake.
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The original Shake Shack.
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Exactly.
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And, um, and so that was the belief, but the more in the last like five, six years, I feel like that s shifted some from what I ve seen, at least on the internet culture content on the internet, where you see people saying,
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Now, I don t know if this is the same for everything in like middle America or around the world, but you see the extreme stuff online.
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And I see some women saying like the man should always pay on the first date.
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And then I see other people saying, no, it should be 50, 50.
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And I see others saying, you know, well, if you re just going to be friends, then people pay separately.
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Right.
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So I think today that
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This is tricky.
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Well, this is where it gets, this is where it gets awkward.
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I m already like, Oh man, what are people going to think and say?
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But I, if I m answering this, that I would like to pay always in the first date, if I wasn t dating, obviously I m engaged now, but I would always pay.
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And that s just coming from a place of.
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Now also, I would only do it if I was choosing the place and I knew how much I was going to spend beforehand.
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So if some girl was like, oh, I want you to take me to this really expensive place and pay for a $300 dinner.
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I d be like, this is already a red flag.
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You know, maybe this is not the right thing, but if someone offers, then I feel like, oh, this person,
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has a thoughtfulness, is genuine, is caring.
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It s not a me versus them.
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They need to do something.
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I m above this mentality.
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And so I think you want to be aware of that.
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And when a woman is willing to offer, I think that s really generous.
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And it shows you who they are.
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And if a man doesn t want to pay, it just gives you information and shows you who they are.
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Yeah.
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And if that s the type of relationship you want to enter, there s nothing right or wrong with it.
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It s just knowing where you re at.
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Yeah.
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And so it s getting clear on what you want.
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I think what s changed for men and women is women have changed, I think, from what I ve heard, what they want differently from what men want as well.
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And so it s just getting clear on what type of relationship
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do you want to enter while you re dating?
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And it s not necessarily a red flag in my mind.
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It s more of just information.
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Okay.
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Is this the type of dynamic you want for a dating relationship?
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Because it s probably going to lead into a longer term relationship, the same style of dynamic.
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It s probably not going to shift later.
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Unless you have those conversations.
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I don t know.
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What do you think?
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It s been what?
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You ve been married for what, 10 years now?
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Yeah, but we ve been together for 10, married for seven.
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But no, as I m listening to you, I m thinking about it.
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And there s a lot of stuff that came up for me.
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The first thing that came up is I ve heard a lot of people say, and this is kind of what you were saying, I ve heard a lot of people say that it s who asks the person out that should pay.
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And who should ask the person out?
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That s another question.
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That makes sense.
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If you ask someone out.
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It s like what you said, you were like, if I ask someone out and I get to choose the place, then I m going to offer to pay because I chose the place.
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Whereas if someone told you to choose the place or if someone else chose the place and then wanted you to pay for it,
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without you giving them that permission.
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But I think my take is, and by the way, I was the same as you, I remember as a student going to like Nando s and Pizza Express, which are very British, like, you know, spots, and you re just thinking, like, how am I going to pay?
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Because at that time, like, to eat together was about 30 pounds.
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How am I gonna get this money?
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Yeah, that s a lot as a student, you re thinking, how am I going to pay for this?
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And I remember I was
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Being a tutor on the side, I was working while I was at university as well.
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That was helping me pay for dates.
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I look back and think about how much money I wasted on dates.
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It was crazy.
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I m with you.
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again, like you, have always opted to pay on dates.
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And I think I would always choose to do that.
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But by the way, I just want to add one thing.
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This is also not just about gender, because you do that with me and I do that with you.
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So even when we re out on bro dates, you ll always offer to pay and I ll always offer to pay.
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And then we usually say, all right, if you get this one, I ll get the next one.
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And I think that s just who we are as people.
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I don t think that s because I m trying to impress a woman or I was trying to, I think that s just how I was raised.
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And that doesn t come from- If we were 20 though, maybe we d be like, let s split this.
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Or I would pay for my stuff.
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Cause I order more than you and get a lot more food and you d probably pay for your stuff.
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You know, it s like, we d probably be at a counter.
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We d each pay separately type of thing.
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So it also depends on like how much money you have and what season of life you re in, I think as well.
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There s one quote that I don t know if this quote is still relevant today, but I m interested to hear what we think about it.
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I heard this quote that says, a woman s loyalty is tested when the man has nothing, and a man s loyalty is tested when he has everything.
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I love that quote, yeah.
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I think you saw that, you see this with like Obama, the Obamas, right?
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I think it s either Obama, and then I ve seen it in, like, people put it with UFC of Conor McGregor, because his story was kind of like that.
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He had nothing, right?
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Yeah, he had nothing when he started out.
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Yeah, exactly.
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And I don t know whether the genders apply, but I think it s a fascinating thing.
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I think it s a powerful thing.
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And I think, well, you see a lot of this conversation around, like,
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I don t know why this is popping up, this kind of high value man, high value woman conversation.
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You see these different conversations online of women saying, well, I need a man that makes 100 grand.
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And I need a man that s, I don t know, six feet tall or above.
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And I need a man that s this age.
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And I need a man that can take all the time off in the world and can travel and pay for five trips a year anywhere I want to go.
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And it s like, there s not that many people that actually have that lifestyle and can live up to that.
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every day for the rest of their life.
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It s a big expectation to think that.
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So I think you gotta understand where you re meeting someone at, at your season of life.
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And also, as you know, a relationship is about how much you give, not how much you expect someone else to give you to make you happy constantly, but how much are you gonna consistently show up and serve the relationship consistently?
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And if you just say, well, me being here is enough value,
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me being around is a lot.
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And they should just be happy.
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I just think that s not the best mindset to approach a healthy, conscious, long term relationship.
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And so we got to start thinking about not what can someone give me, but how can I contribute to the relationship?
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And how can I meet someone with shared values that thinks the same way?
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And maybe if they re 24, 25, they don t have as much to give financially, but they can give emotionally, spiritually.
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They can give me their time.
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They can show up and be creative with dates.
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And we have shared values.
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So we give each other that.
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We give each other less stress, less conflict.
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Like that s an amazing gift to give, less stress.
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by having, because it s like, why, why, why, why be with someone who can pay for everything if all they create is stress and drama?
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Is that the relationship of your dreams?
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So we just kept to be thinking about what we want.
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And for many years, I didn t think that way.
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I thought about who s going to give me the most pleasure, the most fun, who s going to have the best, who am I going to sexually connect with the best.
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And I didn t think about the other things of peace, harmony, shared values, who s going to be kind to me and my family.
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And do we have a similar vision?
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So I think we have to think about those things when we re entering a relationship.
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Yeah, definitely.
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And I love the conversation you brought about to like this high value man, high value woman, I think, if I m completely honest.
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I think there s obviously always historically been so much pressure on women and how they approach relationships.
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And I think there s now a lot of that pressure on men of, I m not six feet tall, I don t make 100k.
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I don t drive a Lambo.
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I don t drive a Lambo.
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Like I don t have these things.
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And let s be honest, it s not the majority of women that are saying they want those things.
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Like it s this is not like a big request.
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Like I m looking over at Helena going like, Helena, are those things on your list?
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Oh, maybe they are.
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Millionaire, six feet.
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Yeah, like multiple six-figure income, six feet tall, drives a Lambo.
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So I also think that, like you said, the internet makes certain things viral because people are having debates around them.
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And then a lot of men start looking at that as reality and start going, well, I can t live up to that.
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So either I m going to pretend that I have those things,
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and I m going to find ways to do that, or I m going to get so busy trying to do things I hate and become someone I don t want to be in order to get some money just to be able to attract a woman like that.
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Yeah, to impress someone.
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Yeah, to impress someone.
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And impressing people with the wrong things.
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Yes.
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And when we impress people with the wrong things, it usually turns out painful in the end.
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Yeah.
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When we impress people with who we truly are,
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you know, our heart, our mindset, our generosity, the way we think, the way we connect, the way we re present with people, that s when we create more beauty in relationships.
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Absolutely.
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I remember I had, I had someone that I was talking to, and they were saying to me, they were like,
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You know what, I m with this girl and she s just into designer clothes and designer bags and she just wants me to get her stuff.
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And I m looking at him and it s really funny because he s dripping in Louis Vuitton.
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He s got the Louis Vuitton logo tattooed all over his body, on every item.
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And it was remarkable to me how we lose that sense of self-awareness.
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I have a rule in my book, Eight Rules of Love, that says you attract what you use to impress.
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And so if you use your bling or your whatever you re wearing to impress someone,
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that s what you re attracting.
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You re attracting someone who is with you for that thing, who desires that, who desires that thing.
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So if you re using your character, and if you re using your qualities, and if you re using your values, then that s what someone s going to be attracted to.
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And that s hard.
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It s really hard, especially in a world of social media, and people building personal brands and starting side hustles and businesses, sometimes they use things to build an audience.
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But
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But that may not be the right thing to build a relationship.
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And so we ve got to be careful about what we re putting out there.
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Whether it be one-to-one or in a community space in person or
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online.
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We ve got to be really careful what we put out there because you will be perceived as that thing.
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And it s one of the reasons why I think we connect so well, because we re always trying to put out positivity.
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We re always trying to put out content of others.
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We re always trying to elevate voices, information, research to help people improve.
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So we attract people in our lives that want to work with us that are also into that mindset.
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We attract healthy relationships, friendships of people that think the same way.
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That s such a great point because when I moved to LA and I remember you already lived here and you were part of the reason, I remember you saying to me, Jay, she moved to LA and that was such a big, that made it easier as well.
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I didn t know a lot of people when I moved here and one of the biggest things I always heard is everyone in LA is superficial, everyone in LA is really fake, everyone in LA is really this.
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And I haven t had that experience of LA.
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I m not saying that doesn t exist.
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I m saying that exists everywhere.
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But my experience has been, because I m almost a walking billboard of what I care about, whether it s online or offline, I tend to find friendships that
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are only coming close to me for those things.
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And that s spot on.
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And so I feel like whether it s where you live, or where you travel, or whatever it is, you ve got to think about like, what is the billboard of my values?
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Like, if there was a tagline for who you are as a human being, like, what are you broadcasting to the world?
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And if that s
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something you re not happy about, it s something you can change, right?
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If I look back, like, I m sure there s been times in my life where I was broadcasting a completely different message.
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And therefore I attracted different types of relationships.
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I think when I was a teen, I attracted a lot of people because I was trying to
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And I couldn t afford anything, but I was trying to be the person who could wine and dine you at the fanciest restaurant, even though I couldn t afford it.
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I was the person who wanted to take you out on the coolest date so that you would think I was really cool, but I couldn t even afford it.
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And I was doing those things because I did think that that s what women wanted and then that would, so I ve also done that.
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What do you think women actually want today?
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Oh God, financially or just generally you re saying?
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What do you think they want in a man?
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In a straight relationship, what do women really want?
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I see mixed signals sometimes of what they say they want, but then what they go after can be completely different.
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Well, I think that is the truth, that I think most people are confused about what they want because there s a mix of what your mom said and dad said.
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And their dysfunction.
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And what you ve seen.
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Exactly.
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So you ve got that complexity.
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You ve then got the complexity of what media said.
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So the Disney princess syndrome.
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That s a real thing.
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The Disney princess syndrome, you saw every Disney princess chasing a prince, chasing a king, chasing a frog that would turn into a prince.
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Or a beast that would transform into a prince.
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You can change him and you re chasing this love story that you were brainwashed to believe was what love looked like.
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So you ve got your parents, you ve got family and friends, you ve got TV and media, you ve got music videos, now you ve got your first relationships.
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and they all are confusing you as to what should I look for.
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And I think that people haven t taken a moment to step back and say, what do I want?
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What do I want?
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Not what does my mom thinks good for me?
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And what does Disney thinks good for me?
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And what does everyone else thinks good for me?
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What do I want?
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What do you think women really want today?
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I would, I would hope, I would hope, this is my hope.
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I don t think it s, I don t think I know because I guess it s the answer is people are confused.
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And by the way, I think men are equally confused on what they want because- I mean, I know what I wanted for a long time.
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I wanted to have sexual connection.
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That s what, cause that s what I was desired and driven by.
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It wasn t always clear, but it was always like, oh, this person, I m attracted to this person.
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I want to be with that.
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You know, that s the way I thought about it in my twenties, right?
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It was like, okay.
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And that never worked out.
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There was fun, there was excitement, there was...
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heightened emotions, there was dopamine hits like crazy, but there was a lot of chaos and a lot of stress.
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And I think when we try to enter a relationship through sexual desire and not spiritual connection or value connection, you may have a lot of ups, but there ll also be a lot of downs.
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And I just, I experienced that over and over again, man.
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I think you got really lucky.
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Because you, you, you did that.
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I mean, no, I had that in my teen years, but it s just, you re so young that that s the only way you can think.
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And that s how you learn too.
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You learn through like, Oh, I tried this and it didn t work.
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I had a lot of pain and, and I tried it again.
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That didn t work either.
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It s like, I learned a lot longer than you did.
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So it took me a lot longer, but, um, I would hope that people right now are looking for safety.
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I think feeling safe and what I mean by safety is.
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Low stress, high peace.
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When I think of a high value person, I think of a high peaceful person.
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Like that s what I m thinking about.
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Someone who has a sense of peace in who they are, what they re doing in life, and how they re going about it.
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Now everyone has anxiety, so you re not gonna find someone who has no anxiety.
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That s not realistic.
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I have anxiety.
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Yeah, no one s perfect.
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Yeah, no one s perfect.
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So this isn t like, let me go find the person who has no anxiety.
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But it s the idea that someone is striving
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for peace.
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So like low stress, high peace, that s safety.
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That s what safety means.
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But people want safety, but they re addicted to drama.
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You know what I mean?
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They re addicted to drama and the highs and lows.
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Yeah, because safety is boring.
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If someone makes me feel safe, it s boring.
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It s like, well, what do we do together if they make me feel safe?
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Oh, well, none of my friends think they re that interesting, like, you know, because it doesn t have that, what you re saying, that highs and lows.
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I know.
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And I think when, that s just the, I just don t think that says, I mean, we, I witnessed this with my parents growing up, right?
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Just a lot of,
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tension and stress and highs and lows, and when s the repair going to happen?
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And when s when are they going to get back together in terms of like, one left the room and anxiousness or screaming?
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And it s just like, when you grow up in a family dynamic of that, I m not sure exactly if that s what you grew up in.
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But I think I hear a lot of people saying they had challenges with their parents, right, in some different format.
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And
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When you grow up in that, you want safety and peace, but you ve never experienced it.
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So you don t know what it feels like.
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And you don t know how to create it.
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So you re almost anxious in trying to chase something or create something that you don t even know exists.
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So good.
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So you have to learn how to heal somehow and create safety within ourselves first, before you can create it in another relationship.
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I couldn t agree more.
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I couldn t agree more.
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I ve seen that again and again.
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I ve realized that
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Because people haven t experienced love, they don t know how to notice and receive it when it arrives knocking on their doorstep.
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Conscious love.
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Because you ve never received love without guilt or love without shame or conditioning.
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Or needing to achieve or do something, right?
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Yeah, and then now when you get it, when someone gives it to you, it goes over your head and you get scared by it.
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Very.
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And I ve seen that happen to people in my life, whether it s friends, family members, people I ve worked with, where people get scared by love or they doubt it or they become cynical or skeptical of it because they ve never experienced it.
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And you re right, the only person challenged, you probably didn t get it from your parents.
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And so unless you re learning how to experience self-safety.
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That s it.
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It s creating that safety first before looking for it in a relationship.
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Because if you don t feel safe and you try to find a partner who is safe, you re still not safe with you.
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You re going to be anxious.
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You re going to be avoidant.
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You re going to be insecure.
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Are they going to cheat on me?
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Are they going to really show up for me like they say they do?
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If you don t have that safety, it s going to be really hard to feel safe
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in another s presence, especially when you give them your heart.
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When you open yourself up, you won t feel safe because you aren t safe with yourself.
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I genuinely think that even the quest for wanting the six feet, a hundred K is a quest for safety.
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There s a, there s a hidden belief that maybe you saw financial insecurity growing up.
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Yes.
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In your home.
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Yes.
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And so when you re saying you want to be with someone who makes 100K, it s actually just a plea of safety.
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It s going to make you feel safe.
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Yeah.
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When you re saying you want to be with someone who s strong and powerful or whatever it may be, it s because maybe you felt unsafe growing up.
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And so sometimes our desires are completely linked to our pains and stresses and traumas.
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And so it s not that they re wrong, it s just that they re being verbalized in a different way.
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But the number one thing I would learn, I mean... But just because someone might make $100,000 doesn t mean they re going to be emotionally safe.
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No, 100% spiritually safe, sexually safe.
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It doesn t mean that they re going to be their word.
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Typically, if someone s driven to earn and make more, unless they have consciousness around it, they re going to have certain values around money.
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SPEAKER_00
Well, here s the thing.
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this point you just made like if someone felt unsafe as a child because maybe they they had to they got evicted a bunch or they didn t you know their parents were always talking about we don t have money we don t have money and they felt unsafe they felt insecure around money to provide for things if you re searching for a guy who has money to provide out of a lack out of a fear out of a pain out of a worry
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And they give that to you, what happens when they take it away?
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What happens if they give it to you conditionally?
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You re going to feel anxious, scared, insecure, and in fear around money.
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You re not going to feel safe still.
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So you re giving one man all the power to say, OK, I can provide because I make $100,000 a year.
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You have to be susceptible to whatever that human being says.
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It s their way, essentially.
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They re in more control then.
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There s a power dynamic then of, I don t have money because I don t feel safe or secure.
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This guy does, so he s going to be able to provide and protect.
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What do you have to do so that this person wants to stay with you then?
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There is a power dynamic.
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There is a control dynamic that I don t know you re going to love long term.
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So you re entering a relationship out of insecurity, out of a lack of safety yourself.
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Now, I m not saying, you know, if you can be with someone who has more money, cool, there can be more options, but it doesn t mean more harmony.
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It just means, okay, they have more money to do things with money.
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Yeah, yeah, that resonates, that resonates really strong.
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Just to throw it out there, we ve done this through asking our teams, looking on social, bringing out themes that we think are buzzy right now.
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This one was, is there a difference in society if a man says, I don t want to make money, is that seen the same way as if a woman says, I don t want to make money?
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Or is there a discrepancy there?
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how do we view it?
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You start it off.
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I watched this really good movie recently which I recommend people watch, definitely trigger warning, it s called Fair Play and the movie s about, without giving too much away, the movie s about a couple who are romantically
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intimate, they have seemed to have a really strong, confident, happy relationship, but they work at the same place and no one knows that they re together.
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Interesting.
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So they re hiding their relationship.
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They re hiding their relationship.
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At their work environment.
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At their work environment.
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And they re both working at a finance firm and they do well for themselves.
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They re both smart.
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Yes.
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But then there comes a time where there s a promotion up for grabs.
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And they re both trying to get the same job.
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Trying to get the same job.
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And I won t give away the rest of the movie.
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Everyone should watch it.
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I think it s on Netflix and like it shows what it looks like to have this competition and envy and all of this in a relationship and how it affects not just the boardroom but the bedroom and how it affects
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The dynamics of everything.
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The dynamics of family and everything.
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And so that movie to me was a really strong narrative around gender roles and how much money people make.
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And so many people come up to me like, Jay, we liked you, but we love Radhi.
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And I m like, that works for me because I love Radhi too.
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And they ll always say to me, they ll be like, you know, Radhi s career is taking off.
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Like, what if it surpasses yours?
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And what if, you know, she does more than you and does better than you?
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How would you feel about that?
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And I always say, well, I plan on being really successful.
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So if my wife outperforms me, that s great.
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I love it.
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Like I m so happy.
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And I think that s because I feel confident in who I am, what I offer to the world and how I want to show up.
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And therefore I can feel really confident for my wife and seeing her grow and, you know, cookbooks coming out and she s got a podcast coming out and I m excited for her.
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And I think my wife should have the biggest TV show in the world because she s so
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charismatic and just, she s beautiful and wonderful in the sense of just her energy.
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I would love for her to have all those things.
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And so I think when I look at this, yes, did I feel I had a responsibility to make money?
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Yes.
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I think I was raised in a more traditional way, even though funny thing is, my mom was the breadwinner in my home.
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Really?
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Yeah, my mom s the breadwinner in my home.
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So my mom used to
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Wake us up, make us breakfast, drop us to school, go to work, make money, come back, pick us up from school, make dinner, give us a packed lunch, work on our homework with us, and then go back out to work if she had to.
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actually saw what a household looked like when I had a powerhouse superwoman mom who actually did everything.
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And my dad wasn t always the main breadwinner ever since I was probably 10 years old.
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And so for the biggest part of my life, my adult life especially, my mom was that person.
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And my mom did that because she loved us.
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And she never ever looked at it as, why am I having to do this?
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And why is he?
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And I think my desire to wanting to be a breadwinner is not because I m a man.
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It s because I saw how much stress it placed on my mom.
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And I was like, I never want to see someone that stressed out, myself or my partner.
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This isn t about gender roles anymore.
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This is about, again, what me and you keep coming back to.
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And I think this is why we have a good friendship.
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because we value peace so highly.
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Yes, I value peace of my mom, I value peace of my wife, I value the peace of myself.
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And so I work hard because I want to live a peaceful life.
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Not because I think I have to be the provider, right?
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For me, it comes down to knowing yourself and knowing the role you want to play in a relationship.
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Now, I will say this, there are very few relationships that I know, where the woman is the breadwinner.
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And the man
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is choosing to work less for whatever reasons.
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Maybe they have kids and he s, you know, more at home dad or things like that.
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or he s just not as thinking about being the provider, right, for the relationship in the home.
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There are very few relationships that I see have a lot of harmony.
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There are a couple I ve seen that do, but not as much harmony as I think, right?
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So I m not saying this can t work, but I go back to you.
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It s like knowing yourself, knowing your strength, and knowing the role you want to play in a relationship.
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I was playing basketball for the first time last night.
3
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I m a little tired, actually.
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It was the first time jumping around in like a year.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I was realizing there was a guy who was, I don t know, 6 10 on the team that I was playing with.
3
SPEAKER_01
And you re what, 6 4?
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SPEAKER_01
6 4.
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And so he s tall, right?
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He s like, can just jump and dunk so easily.
3
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And he s just like, he s supposed to be down by.
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SPEAKER_00
Now you know how I feel when I m with you.
3
SPEAKER_00
Exactly, yeah.
3
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And he tried to bring the ball up the court.
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He tried to dribble it like a point guard.
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And it got stolen pretty easily.
3
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And he just kind of fumbled around and fell down.
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It was chaos of him trying to be in a role that he was not his strength.
3
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It was not what he, you know, is good at.
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And it wasn t the best harmony and flow.
3
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But then he was underneath the basket, he got a rebound, he jammed it, and it was just like, boom, it was explosive in terms of like this passion and flow.
3
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He was in his strength and his role, right?
3
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And I think it s just knowing what type of strengths we have as individuals.
3
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Some men are more driven and high earners and want to create and want to provide because they want that, it makes them feel good.
3
SPEAKER_01
Other men may not be that.
3
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Some women may want to be that high earner, and driven, and working all the time, and be a provider.
3
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Because it makes them feel a certain way.
3
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Maybe it makes them feel more safe, or protected, or whatever.
3
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Or less reliant on someone.
3
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And all those things are fair game.
3
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I think it s knowing yourself.
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I love that.
3
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And with Martha.
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I was going to say that.
3
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Yeah, I was going to bring up.
3
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Yeah, your fantasy.
3
SPEAKER_01
Martha, she s been crushing it for 20 years.
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She s done like 40 movies, and she s creative, and does commercials.
3
SPEAKER_01
She s doing a lot of stuff.
3
SPEAKER_01
She s making great money.
3
SPEAKER_01
But I enjoy providing.
3
SPEAKER_01
Now, I also enjoy support.
3
SPEAKER_01
I also enjoy peace.
3
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I also enjoy someone taking care of logistics, someone taking care of all the things that I don t want to do around the home that cause me stress, someone being responsible for those things, and someone also contributing financially in certain ways.
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and fully appreciating the role, the strengths, and the value she brings.
3
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It doesn t need to be 50-50 financially.
3
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But we 100% bring our strengths and values to our individual roles that creates peace and harmony.
3
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And for me, that is the key.
3
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And I had to learn the hard way for 20-something years in multiple relationships that were dysfunctional based on lack of communication around who I am, what I want,
3
SPEAKER_01
who the other person is, their strengths, what they want, and the roles we want to share together.
3
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that s what it comes down for me.
3
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
3
SPEAKER_00
I love everything you said because I think that s the reality of the communication, not only the self-awareness, but the communication in a relationship.
3
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to say, which one of us wants to go to work?
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Which one of us is really ambitious and crushes it?
3
SPEAKER_00
Which one of us, and maybe it s both of us, maybe it s neither of us, maybe it s one or the other.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I think that s where the challenge arises when we both feel like, well, neither of us really wanna, we don t love what we do, we hate work, we have to do it.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I think that s where what you re saying comes even more into play, this idea of mutual support.
3
SPEAKER_00
And I think what s really interesting is this is how I judge it.
3
SPEAKER_00
I feel like a relationship is an energy exchange physically, financially, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually.
3
SPEAKER_00
The problem is that the financial exchange is the only visible one.
3
SPEAKER_00
And so we put it at the top of the hierarchy.
3
SPEAKER_00
So if you re sitting right now in your relationship going, wait a minute, I pay for everything, I would ask you,
3
SPEAKER_00
Who s mentally leading the relationship?
3
SPEAKER_00
So you re financially leading it.
3
SPEAKER_00
Who s mentally leading the relationship?
3
SPEAKER_00
Who s physically leading the relationship?
3
SPEAKER_00
When I mean physically, what I mean is who s taking care of the physical things like the house, the responsibilities, the things that have to happen.
3
SPEAKER_00
Who s taking emotional care?
3
SPEAKER_00
Who s creating that peace?
3
SPEAKER_00
So I ve said that with me and Radi for years.
3
SPEAKER_00
You know, when we first moved to the US, Radhi couldn t work.
3
SPEAKER_00
She was on my visa, et cetera.
3
SPEAKER_00
And then Radhi s doing really, really well for herself now.
3
SPEAKER_00
And, you know, we co-create and work together financially.
3
SPEAKER_00
But then if I look at emotionally, Radhi is so emotionally regulated.
3
SPEAKER_00
She brings so much peace to this relationship.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m the one who can have mood swings and be a moody guy.
3
SPEAKER_00
My wife is so emotionally regular.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m so grateful for that.
3
SPEAKER_00
She leads that.
3
SPEAKER_00
She leads us physically.
3
SPEAKER_00
She makes sure that we both work out.
3
SPEAKER_00
She s the one making sure I eat right because she takes care of what foods and snacks are available in the house.
3
SPEAKER_00
So now you re looking at another thing that goes a point on her side.
3
SPEAKER_00
Okay, mentally, maybe that s a bit more me.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m the one who s saying, okay, this is how we re going to take care of ourselves.
3
SPEAKER_00
This is what we re focusing on.
3
SPEAKER_00
I m the one who s strategizing where we re heading.
3
SPEAKER_00
So now if you look at it, we re equal.
3
SPEAKER_00
But if you re looking at one thing, just money, it doesn t work.
3
SPEAKER_01
You ve got to be thinking about the contribution for your role and responsibility in the relationship.
3
SPEAKER_01
And again, if we come from the basis of relationships are about giving, not about receiving.
3
SPEAKER_01
If we come into that mindset, because a lot of us get into it because we want to feel something.
3
SPEAKER_01
as opposed to create and give something and contribute something.
3
SPEAKER_01
So we just have to shift our thinking around how we can serve in the relationship first.
3
SPEAKER_01
But we also don t want to be thinking, OK, I need to be serving in so many ways, and I m not going to receive anything.
3
SPEAKER_01
And I m going to be paying for everything, showing up emotionally.
3
SPEAKER_01
This person is emotionally unregulated constantly.
3
SPEAKER_01
I have to clean up everything around the house.
3
SPEAKER_01
This person doesn t want to do it.
3
SPEAKER_01
There s an imbalance then.
3
SPEAKER_01
And that s when you re going to have a lot of conflict, frustration, stress, and you re going to be asking yourself, why am I in this relationship?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that s why I think you have to look at it this broadly, because if you just look at one thing, like same with, same with Radhi, if she looked at it as just who s doing the housework and making sure the fridge is stocked and everything, then she would think she s doing way more than I am.
3
SPEAKER_01
that you don t help around the house ever, you don t pick up after yourself, whatever.
3
SPEAKER_00
And this is what we do.
3
SPEAKER_00
We just focus on the one thing we re getting right.
3
SPEAKER_00
And we re measuring our partner based on that one thing.
3
SPEAKER_00
And that is the recipe for disaster in a relationship.
3
SPEAKER_01
Do you have an assessment of these five things in your book?
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, this assessment is broken down.
3
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, like how to value each of those five things equally.
3
SPEAKER_00
Because we see money as more important
3
SPEAKER_00
than emotional and mental support.
3
SPEAKER_01
Well, money is a big thing because money equals your time and your life.
3
SPEAKER_01
Time is your life.
3
SPEAKER_01
And so if you re, say, here s an example.
3
SPEAKER_01
I was in a previous relationship, I won t say which one, but I was in a previous one where the person I was dating wanted me to buy them a car.
3
SPEAKER_01
And we had just, you know, we hadn t been dating that long, right?
3
SPEAKER_01
And it didn t make sense to me.
3
SPEAKER_01
This person also had their own money.
3
SPEAKER_01
So they had money to buy their own car, but they wanted me to buy their car.
3
SPEAKER_01
And it didn t make sense because we weren t in harmony at that time.
3
SPEAKER_01
So we were already kind of stressed out.
3
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I wasn t even sure of the future.
3
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And it was a big issue for this person.
3
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And I remember thinking, okay.
3
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Let me explore this.
3
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What type of car do you want to buy?
3
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How much?
3
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It was like, she wanted me to buy her a $50,000, $60,000 car.
3
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I go, that s a lot of money.
3
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And you can pay for this on your own.
3
SPEAKER_01
But she just had it in her mind that the man was supposed to pay for things.
3
SPEAKER_01
That was in her mind, right?
3
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Even though she had money, it was.
3
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And so I was like, well, I don t have peace.
3
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So why should I be paying to spend my time from the past to work hard to pay for something when there s not peace?
3
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There doesn t have to be an equal exchange
4
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exchange of like shared values.
4
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So I think we got to understand like what it is you want, what you re willing to provide for and pay for, you know, money is your time and your life.
4
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You know, you work hard and you go in the studio and you record things and that takes days of your life.
4
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And if you invest that money into something that isn t serving the relationship for greater purpose,
4
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then essentially you re wasting, you re, you re spending money on things that don t serve you to cause you more stress and you re wasting your life.
4
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Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
Wow.
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That s what it feels like.
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So money gets to be really, it is important.
4
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Yeah.
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It shouldn t be devalued in that.
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And Martha also says to me, you know, she makes a great point.
4
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And so I m going to say on the other side of things, she s like, listen, and I don t need her to financially pay the same amounts, right.
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Of things.
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It s not what I want.
4
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And she said to me, no, I do a lot of things around our home and I m, and phone calls with people and that is time and time is money where I m not making money.
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So I am coordinating things.
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I m on the phone, I m scheduling, I m making sure this is taken care of so you don t have to worry about it.
4
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And it is her time, which is money.
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And so it s acknowledging that for.
4
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that if you re a woman and you re contributing in a lot of ways with your time, you may not be spending the money to buy things, but that time is money.
4
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Essentially it is your life.
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So I had a friend, the woman was a doctor performing really well and he was a lawyer when they met and he was crushing it.
4
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So they were like both high earners doing really well for themselves.
4
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Then what happened was he was going through
4
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a personal issue of depression and challenges and, you know, going through his own mental health journey.
4
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And at that point, he could no longer function at work.
4
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Like he just couldn t function.
4
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It wasn t even that he didn t want to, it was that he just didn t find that he could function.
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And so he stepped away.
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And stopped making money.
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And stopped making money.
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And at that point, I remember talking to them and asking them if she was okay with it.
4
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And she goes, I didn t marry him for that.
4
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I was with him because he was always there to listen to me.
4
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He always understood me.
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He always valued me.
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And I love being a doctor.
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I love the work I do.
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And if it means that I m going to be the breadwinner forever, I m good with that.
4
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And to me, that was just this really healthy look at what a long-term relationship is.
4
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Because you don t have any idea of the highs and lows that are going to come on either side.
4
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And one of the things you just mentioned to me, this I love, this I got shown years ago and I bring it up because it s the point you re making that I think so many people are undervalued.
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So there was a survey done of 6,000 mums and they estimated that a stay-at-home mum s work an average of 94 hours a week.
4
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Oh man.
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And it would collect a mom s salary of $113,586 a year when you trade that time for money.
4
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That s true.
4
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And obviously I m sure that number is totally inaccurate because I think we d all say that moms are priceless, valueless.
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Like you can t even, even if you re saying, okay, if you re going to work somewhere and get a certain hourly rate, this is what are you, you ve received.
4
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Yeah.
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The fact that if, if people, and whether that s a stay at home mom or a stay at home dad,
4
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If we can t see that as a massive role, if we can t see a homemaker as a massive role, if we can t see the person who s making sure that there s food in the fridge and that there s food on the table, all aspects of the role, if we can t see that,
4
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then we re missing the point, right?
4
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We re completely missing the point.
4
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And I think too many of us are overvaluing and undervaluing and not looking at the complete picture of what that takes.
4
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I think this is where it gets awkward, you know, in the awkward therapy, because...
4
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But again, I just feel like it s knowing what role do you want to play in your life?
4
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What is that role?
4
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Do you want to be a stay at home mom?
4
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And that s the role you want to live?
4
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Do you want or do you want to be have kids, but then go back to work three months later and be a high earner?
4
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And, you know, find babysitter and daycare and find other support and try to do both.
4
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I m not saying there s a right or wrong.
4
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You just got to know what you want and what you re best at.
4
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What is your strength?
4
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What is the role you want to play?
4
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And what consequence is this role going to have now and in the future?
4
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It could be a good consequence, but you being at work all day for 18 years of your kids  lives,
4
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And then coming home at night and being there on the weekends and showing up in that way, what consequence will that have?
4
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Maybe it s a good consequence where it s like, wow, my mom did it all.
4
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She was like the boss.
4
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She was this, this.
4
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And she showed up for us.
4
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She was super mom.
4
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She provided.
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And then she was at home.
4
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She was giving and she was caring.
4
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But that s time.
4
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That s a lot of time and energy.
4
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And maybe you re not going to be as connected to your partner, your husband.
4
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Maybe you re not going to be as present in things.
4
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Maybe you re not going to take care of your health as well.
4
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So there might be a consequence to whatever decision that we make.
4
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Absolutely.
4
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I think it s knowing what we want, what our role is.
4
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And we don t always have the luxury of choosing these things.
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It s not like, Oh, if we re struggling with money, both people might have to work, right?
4
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We may not always have this luxury of like, well, I just want to be a stay at home mom all day because that s what I want.
4
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You may need to work weekends and nights and things like that.
4
SPEAKER_00
So yeah, sound advice.
4
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And it comes back to what I think we both.
4
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I think both of our philosophy is what brings the most harmony and peace in a relationship, and knowing that and trying to live into that as frequently as possible.
4
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So absolutely, absolutely.
4
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Alright, so
4
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We re going to dive into this as a follow-up and go in a bit deeper to push the awkward button.
4
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How do you feel about dividing up rent?
4
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Who should take on the responsibility and how would you feel if your partner was covering more rent than you?
4
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It s all situational, so there s one situation where it s, what if someone already owns the home?
4
SPEAKER_00
Oh, go ahead.
4
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Would you feel emasculated if your partner pays for more rent than you?
4
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Would I feel emasculated personally?
4
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Yes.
4
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I wouldn t feel emasculated, I d feel like I m not doing my role to the best of my ability.
4
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I would feel awkward, personally, because of my makeup and my personality and my beliefs and my values.
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And I would feel like there would be a dynamic that I wouldn t enjoy.
4
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So it doesn t mean it couldn t work.
4
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That s not what the end game would wanna be.
4
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And so maybe I would have less at that time and I d be like, okay, this is where I m at.
4
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And it would drive me to get out of the place that I m in.
4
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It would give me a reason to kind of like overcome what I m going through.
4
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So for me, that s how I would feel based on my, just my values and my beliefs, I guess.
4
SPEAKER_00
But again, I don t know, what do you think?
4
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So I think it depends on like, again, it comes down to,
4
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Was this a place that was previously rented and someone s moving in?
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
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Because if it s my place and I m already renting it and then I m inviting someone to move in with me, then I ve got to have that conversation up front whether they re now going to join in.
4
SPEAKER_01
Sure.
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Right?
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Because I m already paying that rent.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
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Now is it, are we actually separately renting and we want to get a place together?
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Now are we going to set that budget together and have that conversation?
4
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Then I think it s a great 50-50 moment.
4
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Yes.
4
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If that s where you are in your relationship.
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Yes.
4
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And I think so much of this is defined by how confident we feel in a relationship.
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But I would encourage people that I think we ve made love feel like, if someone loves me, then they ll pay 100%.
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I don t think that s a healthy way of measuring love.
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SPEAKER_00
I think love... A guy could say, well, if they love me, they d have sex with me every time I want it.
4
SPEAKER_00
You know, they would do what I want anytime I want it.
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Anytime I want it, yeah.
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They d cook me a meal every day.
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They d have sex with me.
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That s what love is for me.
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Yeah.
4
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So they need to do what I want.
4
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And it gets so messy when you have that standard.
4
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And so to me, it s having that healthy conversation of saying, we want to get a place together.
4
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We re going to split it.
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Or you re moving in with me.
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Hey, if this works out, if this is going in the right direction, maybe we can have that conversation down the line of how we split rent.
4
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And I know these are the unsexy, uncomfortable conversations.
4
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But they re real, like you need to have those.
4
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Like me and Raleigh have those conversations right now where we re like, all right, well, this is our mortgage payment.
4
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Like, how are we splitting that?
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How are we figuring that out?
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Or we ve got this payment, how are we figuring that out?
4
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There was two people that I lived with before in previous relationships that I didn t have these conversations with.
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They were just assumed like we would figure it out because we care, we like each other, we love each other, whatever.
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And they ended poorly, right?
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It was stressful, it was exhausting.
4
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It wasn t fun and exciting, right?
4
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And I think you ve got to really ask the unsexy, boring, not fun questions before you get into living together.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
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Don t just casually rent together.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
Don t just casually move in.
4
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
4
SPEAKER_00
Don t just casually be like, okay, what a play house before marriage.
4
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Unless you have these conversations.
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This is something Martha, this is fresh for me.
4
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Cause this happened, you know, a year and a half ago, I guess with, with Martha and myself.
4
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We were dating for a few months before we
5
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became, I guess, exclusively committed.
5
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And we had all these questions before we got exclusively committed.
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Then we were dating for a while longer.
5
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We decided to rent an apartment together.
5
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She had a place that she owned.
5
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And I said, I m not moving in there.
5
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There was an option.
5
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But I was like, I don t want to move into a place that you own.
5
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It just felt awkward to me.
5
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What, am I going to pay all the rent?
5
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Am I going to pay half the rent?
5
SPEAKER_00
It didn t feel right.
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I go, if we re going to do this,
5
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let s go into a new place and I will pay for all the rent.
5
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I m pretty sure that s what we did.
5
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I think she paid for like utilities and other things and food.
5
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And like, we made an agreement.
5
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I was like, I feel comfortable paying for this, but I want to have support.
5
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How would you like to support?
5
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And she was like, I m happy to pay for these things and this and take care of this and make sure all this is handled.
5
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I go, that feels great to me.
5
SPEAKER_00
This agreement around money feels really good.
5
SPEAKER_00
Then we entered the apartment that we lived in with that agreement.
5
SPEAKER_00
There was never a time where I was like, oh, I m paying for more things.
5
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I m resentful and frustrated.
5
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You know what I mean?
5
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And so I think you ve got to have these conversations about what feels good for you, your strengths, and your roles.
5
SPEAKER_00
and make sure you re in agreement before entering this.
5
SPEAKER_01
Well, I think what we re getting at here is there are these hidden expectations in relationships.
5
SPEAKER_01
And when you re on the other side of a hidden expectation, it breeds resentment.
5
SPEAKER_01
And now it comes out in that argument at night about the TV show you re watching when that isn t the issue.
5
SPEAKER_01
The issue is you feel like that person is living off of your hard work.
5
SPEAKER_01
But you didn t want to say it to them because you wanted to be the nice guy too.
5
SPEAKER_01
And so there s this whole people pleasing thing that comes into it or the hidden expectation.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like, and I think I ve been the same.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s, it s what s always worked for me.
5
SPEAKER_01
And rather it s like from day one, we had these conversations.
5
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We ve continued to have these conversations, even as things have changed, because I think if you re not having these uncomfortable, difficult conversations, then I promise you, you re feeling awkward and uncomfortable.
5
SPEAKER_01
in your mind.
5
SPEAKER_00
And you re frustrated and resentful.
5
SPEAKER_01
And you re frustrated and resentful.
5
SPEAKER_01
And now that s causing way more issues.
5
SPEAKER_01
So how do I think the rent should be split?
5
SPEAKER_01
I don t like, and I think we re both this way, I m not giving people like, it should be 50-50.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think numbers are a stupid thing to give people because everyone s situation is so unique.
5
SPEAKER_01
But you ve got to be having this conversation and finding out a split that you re genuinely both comfortable with.
5
SPEAKER_01
And by the way, if you re not comfortable, say it.
5
SPEAKER_01
But if you have a silly expectation for the other person,
5
SPEAKER_01
hidden that, oh, if they love me, they ll take care of everything.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s not going to work.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s not love.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, again, Martha could pay for half of everything and she d be fine because she makes good money and she s saved her money and invested her money.
5
SPEAKER_00
She s been smart for 20 years working.
5
SPEAKER_00
Like she s got a history of being smart with her money, but that s not what I want.
5
SPEAKER_00
I don t want that.
5
SPEAKER_01
And she s happy to receive in that way too.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
I want other things from her than her contributing her money 50-50.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s not what I want in a relationship.
5
SPEAKER_00
Other people might want that.
5
SPEAKER_00
I don t want that.
5
SPEAKER_00
And that s okay if they want that.
5
SPEAKER_00
That s great, yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
It s figuring out what brings you the most peace and harmony and less stress.
5
SPEAKER_00
Because stress is the thing that causes the most pain physically for us, mentally, emotionally.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it causes relationships to die.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yes, stress, constant stress causes them to die.
5
SPEAKER_00
Maybe you stay together forever, but the relationship is dead.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it s not thriving, it s not growing or flourishing.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so be very honest with the person you re dating when you before you get into a living arrangement.
5
SPEAKER_00
about how you want to show up and provide the role you want to play and what will make you feel good if the other person provides in a certain way and you may be off definitely and that just may mean you need to get clear on uh okay do we even want to be together this could be a big red flag if we can t figure out how to live together
5
SPEAKER_00
Can we be together forever?
5
SPEAKER_00
Totally.
5
SPEAKER_00
Just because we love each other, we like each other, we ve had good times for the last year doesn t mean you should be together.
5
SPEAKER_01
Totally.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I don t think you have to have your financial situation match your emotional state.
5
SPEAKER_01
No.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like those are two separate conversations.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_01
because your financial situation doesn t necessarily align with what you re feeling emotionally.
5
SPEAKER_01
Like someone could be all in emotionally, but they may not have the finances to align the same way as that.
5
SPEAKER_00
But showing up emotionally and contributing to that way is a big value add.
5
SPEAKER_00
Massive.
5
SPEAKER_00
And there are a lot of people that can have money, but be jerks and be
5
SPEAKER_01
And the other side, too, where I think a lot of people feel like you can be with a great person, but if they don t want to work and they don t want to put in the time and have these conversations, that s unhealthy, too.
5
SPEAKER_00
You ve got to be resentful of that, too.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, exactly.
5
SPEAKER_01
So love s not going to make up for either of those things.
5
SPEAKER_00
Love is not enough.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, this is your... Love is not enough, man.
5
SPEAKER_00
And that s why I say I ve seen relationships where women are in the... They re higher earners than the men they re with.
5
SPEAKER_00
But they re like, man, this guy shows up and he s a good guy and he shows up for my kids or this and that.
5
SPEAKER_00
But if the man is not willing in my mind to figure out a way to contribute also financially, I just think it s hard long term.
5
SPEAKER_00
I just haven t seen it work long term, unless there s an agreement where the woman s like, I wanna make all the money and I just want you to be the stay at home dad.
5
SPEAKER_00
And I want you to show up and contribute in other ways around the homes and make me feel like I just haven t seen many situations.
5
SPEAKER_00
Now maybe that ll change, I don t know.
5
SPEAKER_00
I have a feeling, I mean, this is awkward, but I have a feeling that women in general want a man to be able to provide in some ways financially.
5
SPEAKER_00
And if they can t provide in any way financially, I don t think that s what a lot of women want.
5
SPEAKER_00
I think there has to be some financial contribution beyond, I m just going to show up and be a good guy and love you.
5
SPEAKER_00
I just, I don t know, that might be the most awkward thing I said, but it might be.
5
SPEAKER_01
I get what you re saying.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s, it s, it s definitely like, it will, it will push some buttons for some people, but I think, I think what you re saying is that.
5
SPEAKER_01
That s why it s so important that people reflect and really are clear about what they expect, because I think a lot of people go, no, I don t expect that.
5
SPEAKER_01
I don t want that.
5
SPEAKER_01
But then do you really want it?
5
SPEAKER_01
Right?
5
SPEAKER_01
Like it s, and, and there s a lot of things that get lost in those hidden expectations.
5
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
And it all depends on situations.
5
SPEAKER_00
I mean, if you re a man that s, if you re like, okay, I m not going to make any money cause that s not what I want, but my role, I can build a home.
5
SPEAKER_00
I can go hunt.
5
SPEAKER_00
I can do every, I can provide in every other way.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s all value.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s all value.
5
SPEAKER_01
It s like how much value are you bringing?
5
SPEAKER_01
This one s interesting.
5
SPEAKER_01
Should you share a bank account and when?
5
SPEAKER_01
Oh, man.
5
SPEAKER_01
So, I remember that, and this may be an Indian culture thing, but I remember when me and Radhi got married, that was really important to her.
5
SPEAKER_01
And it comes from a family expectation around this is the time when you need full transparency and full openness.
5
SPEAKER_01
I think for me, it didn t feel like a big thing.
5
SPEAKER_01
I ve always been very transparent.
5
SPEAKER_01
I didn t have issues with it.
5
SPEAKER_01
I married Radhi with all the intentions of wanting to be together forever.
5
SPEAKER_01
And I saw everything we now had as ours.
5
SPEAKER_01
Granted, I did not have a lot.
5
SPEAKER_00
And so I. Let s say you met Radhi now.
5
SPEAKER_01
Yeah.
5
SPEAKER_00
When you had a lot of financial success in the career and the business and you just met and you know, in a couple of years you got married.
5
SPEAKER_00
Would you have that same thought?
5
SPEAKER_01
If I m completely honest and doesn t apply to Radhi as a person, I think it applies to meeting someone.
5
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I don t think I d be the same because I think I have so much more to lose and I have so much more
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not that I wouldn t, if I was going to marry someone, I m sure I trust them.
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But I don t think that in this interaction, that exchange would feel equal or accurate based on the amount of time we ve spent together.
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Whereas, you know, Riley was with me when I had absolutely nothing apart from myself to offer and has been with me and also never expected anything.
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When we lived in a tiny, you know, shoebox apartment in New York, she was happy.
5
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When we,
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had a little place that we had in London, she was happy.
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Like Radhi s never wanted stuff.
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She s never asked, she s never made that the way this relationship s gone.
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So- But if you re meeting someone in another world and you ve built the business that you have- I would struggle and I see that with my, I see that with friends I have.
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Like I have male friends who are far more successful than I am financially and they struggle to date because they have no idea
5
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what the person is attracted to.
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And some of these people are public figures, some of these are not public figures.
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The ones who are not public figures can get away with it, but they re also scared of like, well, when do I invite the person to my house?
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And when do I allow them to see all this other stuff that I have?
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And what if they Google me and, you know, all these kinds of things.
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And by the way, this applies to female friends I have too.
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Like I have plenty of friends who are really successful women,
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who feel the same way about dating men, because they don t know as well.
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They re like, well, are they just trying to get friendly with the people I know?
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And do they just want access to my network?
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And do you know, are they just trying to find the person who s going to fund their next movie?
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Like, where are they trying to go?
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So
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I don t think this is a gender thing, again, I think everyone feels this, but I would say yes, that when I met Radhi, again, this does not apply to Radhi, I would have done that with anyone I married at the time because I would only marry someone I trust.
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But you had nothing.
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But I had nothing, so it wouldn t even be a thought because I had nothing to lose.
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But now you have something, would you share a bank account?
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I wouldn t now.
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Yeah.
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I don t think it would be, I don t think I d, I think there d be parts of it, but not all of it.
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Right.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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I think it s, I think it s all situational.
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I mean, yeah.
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I mean, I mean, we re, I mean, we re in this situation right now where we, I probably wouldn t have, we re not married yet.
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Right.
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So we re engaged.
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We re not married yet, but we have a home together.
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You know, we do a lot together.
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Yeah.
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And we are intending to be married.
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This is our vision.
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We want to have a family, all these things.
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But you re both also equally like people who are- She s got her businesses.
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She s got her stuff.
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And she s got her money.
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I ve got mine, et cetera.
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And so we re kind of navigating this right now because we re both older and trying to figure this out.
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And we created a joint account for the home.
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That makes perfect sense.
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Right?
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It s part of getting the loan and all these different things.
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Because it s a joint decision.
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Yes.
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So we created that.
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Now, there are certain amounts that we put in for the home that were different, but we had agreements on what we re going to do.
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So we have a joint account there, right?
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And that feels fine.
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But we don t touch that money.
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It s just sitting there to be able to pay the house or whatever.
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But I, I m not going to give her my business accounts.
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You know, it s like I have a business I ve been running for a long time and I don t need her, I don t need access to her business accounts.
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Now, when we get married, I m assuming maybe it ll make sense to create a joint account where there s a certain amount of money for certain logistics or whatever, but.
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I don t know.
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I think I still have to figure all this out.
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And that s the right answer because it s like, same with me.
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I m, I m supposing that if I was, I wouldn t know, but you ve meant a lot of words right now.
6
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So we re talking about a joint business account.
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You re talking about joint decision-making, you re talking about a joint home.
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Like that s what I m saying.
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Like if there s joint decision-making, it makes sense.
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If there s joint, uh, purchases, it makes sense.
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Like, I think that s the point that,
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But not just, here s my account, you have access to it, spend whatever you want.
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That doesn t work for me.
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That doesn t work for anyone, right?
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Like, it s so unhealthy.
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And I think, again, we look at that and go, but that s not love.
6
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Like, love would mean that you just- Don t you trust me?
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Don t you want to share everything?
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With everything that you ve built?
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Yeah.
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And it s like, well, yes, I do trust you.
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That s why we re in this world together.
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But we re talking here about decades of work that you don t just give away and share in a moment.
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Because of love.
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Because of love, yeah.
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And I think a lot of people look at that and be like, well, that s not love.
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You don t love someone.
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And I m like, I can t, obviously I m looking at it hypothetically.
6
SPEAKER_01
Well, I mean, just because you love someone doesn t mean you re supposed to be married also, because lots of people fall in love, get married and they get divorced.
6
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Does that mean they didn t love each other?
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Or does it just mean they didn t align on how to make a relationship work living together with their lives together?
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And these things can get messy that way.
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And that s what I think you re protecting, that knowing the reality of relationships and knowing that breakups, divorces, all these things happening.
6
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All the time.
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When you have money tied up in it, it gets very messy.
6
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Yeah.
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And I think that s why, you know, I don t know if we re going to be talking about prenups.
6
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Yeah, we should.
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Because I interviewed someone recently, a woman, who I asked her about, like, she s made a lot of money later in her life, right?
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And I said, is it important for women to have a prenup who make a lot of money?
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And she said, before I was making this money and I was with the guy, he was making more, now I m making more.
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And she was like, it s really important for me to have a prenup now, since the financial dynamic has shifted, right?
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Now, she said it in a way that was like for both of us, like it s for him and for me.
6
SPEAKER_01
Um, but her thoughts on like prenups are like, I think if you re making a lot of money as a woman, you should have it.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Now there s more to that, that we unpacked, but I don t want to just blanket statement, but, um, and for me, I think it s about agreements.
6
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It s about clarity and agreements.
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And again, I m still kind of figuring this out in this process right now with myself, but I think when you have clarity of like, okay, the intention is to be together and to be together forever is when people get married.
6
SPEAKER_01
Right.
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That s kind of the intention.
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It s not, let s be together for 10 years and see what happens.
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Totally.
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But I think it s also clear to say, if this, when this, how this, what will be next.
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And that s, you re actually protecting and honoring each other by having these conversations, as opposed to just expecting again that this is what love means.
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SPEAKER_00
And I think that s where we make the biggest mistakes, where we re like, love to me means everything that is yours is mine, everything that mine is yours.
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Okay, if we both agree on that,
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Do it, that s beautiful.
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Like I m not, by the way, I don t think me and Luis here are saying you have to have a prenup.
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If you don t want one, that s beautiful.
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I respect that.
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I don t have one, right?
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Like we never needed one.
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We never did one.
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It s beautiful.
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I m not saying you have to have one.
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I m saying, please have that conversation.
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Have the conversation.
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And don t feel uncomfortable bringing it up because if someone really honors you and values you, all you re doing is honoring something.
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By the way, people have prenups for like when their parents want to give them gifts.
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I understand, yeah.
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So like, let s say you re with someone and their parents are like,
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And when we pass on, I m going to give this gift to my child.
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They want the partner to sign a prenup because they re like, this belongs to my son or whatever.
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I think, what do you call it?
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A prenup or an agreement?
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I think an agreement creates more clarity and peace agreements all the way.
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And it creates freedom.
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You can call it a prenup.
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You can call it a, we just want to have an agreement, whatever it is.
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I think people have this weird thing around a prenup, like it s this bad thing.
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As opposed to, can we create an agreement that if you cheat on me and you want to leave, you don t get to take everything.
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Can we just make that agreement?
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Like, that s not fair.
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Whereas if we don t have an agreement, the state has their agreements.
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SPEAKER_01
Yes.
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I like this.
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SPEAKER_01
I like this.
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The state is already made an agreement for you based on your marriage.
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Each state has different agreements.
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Do we value those agreements?
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Does that feel fair and right for me?
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And if it does, cool, we don t need a prenup.
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We like that they can do this, and they ll divvy it up how they want, 50-50, and they ll give us custody how they want.
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If we agree with their thoughts on our lives and our relationship, then we ll give them power.
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If we want to take back our power for our relationship, let s create an agreement.
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And if you turn that into a prenuptial agreement,
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Great.
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I love that.
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It creates clarity.
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That s huge.
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So you re giving the state power over your relationship breakup, or you create that power.
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That s the win.
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That s the win.
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I love it.
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It s just getting clear.
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One thing I was thinking of, and we don t need to go into this, but it was an honest thought.
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I think what I said about the prenup, about success and prenup, I actually said it for wanting people to be more thoughtful.
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I think I ve got to a place in my life, and I ve always been this way, is that if someone s going to take and steal from me, I m like, have it.
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I actually don t even care.
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I m on a personal, if you actually asked me, we ve had, I mean, this, this bar I wouldn t put live, but like we ve had employees steal from us.
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SPEAKER_00
We ve had like, you know, right.
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SPEAKER_00
And I ve just, and I ve never tried to get about it.
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SPEAKER_00
Cool.
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SPEAKER_00
If that s you, bro, take it, fired, take it, get lost.
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I don t care.
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Like I m good.
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Like I m not that guy.
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Like I m not someone who s.
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SPEAKER_00
Well, if you ve got a hundred million in the bank and you have a partner that s like, I m going to take everything because you hurt me.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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That s a different thing.
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I think comically though, I m like, I know that karma will take care of that.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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I think that s how I genuinely live.
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That s also like, okay, you spent 20, 30 years building a business.
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SPEAKER_01
And then someone s like, man or woman is just like, you hurt me.
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SPEAKER_01
You lied to me.
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SPEAKER_01
You didn t give me what I wanted.
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SPEAKER_01
Now I m going to take everything.
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SPEAKER_01
No, everything.
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That s the way people think sometimes.
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Or I m going to make your life miserable to get everything that I want.
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SPEAKER_01
Interesting side note here.
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There s a famous,
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couple, I ll just say in the last few years, so I won t give it away.
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But there s a famous couple that I ve heard, they had a prenup.
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And it s a, and I m hearing that it s a very clean divorce process because they had gone through because they had the prenup.
6
SPEAKER_01
And I think it was the woman s decision because she had a lot of money, right?
6
SPEAKER_01
So as opposed to it s already hard enough to go through a breakup.
6
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just a romantic relationship.
6
SPEAKER_01
I can only imagine how much harder it is to go through a divorce.
6
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The pain, the sadness, the loss of memories and the identity and the, you have to split friendships now, all these things.
6
SPEAKER_01
If you have kids, like the pain of a divorce must be tremendous.
6
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
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A hundred percent.
6
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So, you know, we ve talked about so many things today, and I feel like we ve covered some really good ground.
6
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And by the way, me and Lewis are not sitting here as experts in this space.
6
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We re talking about our reflections, our thoughts, like our personal experiences, just being vulnerable, because we think we want to encourage more vulnerable conversations.
6
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And I m hoping that
6
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We re hoping that this conversation is going to make you talk to your partner, make you talk to your friends about these things and create agreements.
6
SPEAKER_00
But we want to end on this last one and it s this idea or even like a summarizing thought around whether we feel if we took these traditional gender roles that
7
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have been established over time away from our minds, would that actually improve our relationships or would it actually reduce our relationships?
7
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What do you think?
7
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My take is that I feel the
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conditioning of previous gender roles is what creates confusion.
7
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So the expectation that he should pay on the first date or the expectation that we should share bank accounts or the expectation that you should provide and I ll do this,
7
SPEAKER_01
it reduces the conversation that needs to happen because we make assumptions.
7
SPEAKER_01
And when you re making assumptions, you re no longer having agreements.
7
SPEAKER_01
If you didn t have assumptions, you get the opportunity to make agreements and say, let s talk about this, let s discuss it.
7
SPEAKER_01
Today, we don t discuss, we don t talk, we don t conversate.
7
SPEAKER_01
We have expectations too.
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SPEAKER_01
We have expectations because they ve been made up by someone 50 years ago.
7
SPEAKER_01
Who are probably divorced.
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SPEAKER_01
Yeah, exactly.
7
SPEAKER_00
Who were stressed out, divorced or whatever.
7
SPEAKER_01
Exactly, weren t happy.
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So that s, yeah, that s my take.
7
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It s as simple as that, that I think the conversation we ve had today isn t about gender.
7
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It s about this idea of, can you communicate?
7
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Can you connect?
7
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If that, that s what love is, the ability to have those awkward, uncomfortable conversations.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yes, courage is the key.
7
SPEAKER_00
Courage to know yourself and who you are.
7
SPEAKER_00
Courage to know what you want, and not what you think you re supposed to have or what your parents want you to have, but what you want.
7
SPEAKER_00
And courage to own the role and responsibility you want to step in, the contribution you want to step into, and communicate, this is who I am.
7
SPEAKER_00
This is who I want to be.
7
SPEAKER_00
This is where I want to go.
7
SPEAKER_00
Do you want to be in this partnership with me?
7
SPEAKER_00
Do you want to play this game?
7
SPEAKER_00
It s not a game of love, but do you want to play this game of life?
7
SPEAKER_00
It s like, we re doing this together.
7
SPEAKER_00
Are we going to be good teammates?
7
SPEAKER_00
Are we going to be in alignment on most things?
7
SPEAKER_00
Or if we re not, are we going to be able to have cautious conflict and find ways to repair what you talk about so much on how to fight, which is one of the keys to you of figuring out how to have a healthy relationship.
7
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And if we can do that,
7
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I just think there s going to be a lot more harmony and peace and actual.
7
SPEAKER_00
You re going to appreciate the person you re with more and more when you have these awkward, courageous conversations.
7
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely.
7
SPEAKER_01
Absolutely.
7
SPEAKER_01
And they never stop.
7
SPEAKER_01
Never stop.
7
SPEAKER_01
Never stop.
7
SPEAKER_00
What s the most awkward conversation you ve had with Roddy recently that, that you re like, man,
7
SPEAKER_00
I m still, we re still in this like dance together.
7
SPEAKER_00
We re still having these conversations because you guys continue to evolve.
7
SPEAKER_00
What s the most recent awkward conversation?
7
SPEAKER_01
It s a habit that I have of asking these four check-ins.
7
SPEAKER_01
So I believe that every relationship should have four check-ins.
7
SPEAKER_00
Don t you do this on Sundays?
7
SPEAKER_00
When do you do this?
7
SPEAKER_00
Or quarterly?
7
SPEAKER_00
There s different.
7
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
7
SPEAKER_01
So one s a daily check-in and the daily check-in is what was your highlight of today or did you learn today?
7
SPEAKER_01
It allows you to have a moment of connection with that person, especially when you have a busy day and you don t see them all day.
7
SPEAKER_01
I have one once a week, which is, what do you have coming up this week and how can I be aware of it?
7
SPEAKER_01
Let me just be aware of it.
7
SPEAKER_01
How can I help you with it?
7
SPEAKER_01
How can I assist you this week?
7
SPEAKER_01
What do you have coming up?
7
SPEAKER_01
Then I have one every quarter that says, what s your, oh no, this is the awkward one.
7
SPEAKER_01
So the question every quarter is, is this relationship going in the direction you want?
7
SPEAKER_01
If it s not, what are we willing to do for it?
7
SPEAKER_01
That s interesting.
7
SPEAKER_01
So that s the one that I ask every quarter because I think if you measure things yearly,
7
SPEAKER_01
A year is way too long a time.
7
SPEAKER_01
You can t measure it daily because that s overanalyzing it.
7
SPEAKER_01
But somewhere in the middle, there has to be that question of like, well, what s going, what s happening in the right direction?
7
SPEAKER_01
What are we willing to change?
7
SPEAKER_01
What do we need to change?
7
SPEAKER_01
How are we feeling about this?
7
SPEAKER_01
And I think that conversation is one that I never want to stop having because that s the only way.
7
SPEAKER_01
If you ve got to measure your business quarterly, why are we not measuring our relationships quarterly?
7
SPEAKER_01
Yes.
7
SPEAKER_01
You re looking at your numbers and your stats and you re analyzing and looking at the data, but there s no relationship data.
7
SPEAKER_01
Your relationship data is what you felt like on your wedding day or your first date.
7
SPEAKER_01
And you re still using 20-year-old data or five-year-old data for 2024.
7
SPEAKER_01
That s inaccurate.
7
SPEAKER_01
And then the final question once a year is what are your goals this year and how can I help you?
7
SPEAKER_01
That s beautiful, man.
7
SPEAKER_01
And so those are your four check-ins.
7
SPEAKER_01
You can have a meaningful, thoughtful, and that s when you don t get surprises because you re checking in so often that you can tell the pattern with which the relationship s going as opposed to like one day someone turns around after three years.
7
SPEAKER_01
I want a divorce.
7
SPEAKER_01
Totally.
7
SPEAKER_01
Whereas I m hoping if you re with someone who s thoughtful, if you re checking in, they can at least give you signs.
7
SPEAKER_00
People would want to know in the last 10 years.
7
SPEAKER_00
I won t make it recent but in the last 10 years your relationship What was a surprising response that Roddy gave you where you thought everything is fine We re gonna work great place or I m just living my life and everything s smooth where she said actually This is an area that I d like to improve for us to take a different action on was there something in the last 10 years where she said in that awkward question were you like
7
SPEAKER_00
I m crushing it in this relationship.
7
SPEAKER_00
She loves me.
7
SPEAKER_00
Everything s great.
7
SPEAKER_00
Like I m doing my thing.
7
SPEAKER_01
I think it was more a change.
7
SPEAKER_01
It wasn t even in the conversation.
7
SPEAKER_01
We, because of visas and other things ended up spending
7
SPEAKER_01
more time than we ever anticipated apart a couple of years ago.
7
SPEAKER_01
And Radhi was stuck in London, I was stuck in the US and we didn t see each other for nearly six months probably.
7
SPEAKER_01
And that was a surprise because we didn t anticipate that, like it wasn t intentional, it happened because of rules and all that kind of stuff.
7
SPEAKER_01
And it wasn t something we wanted at the time.
7
SPEAKER_01
Like we weren t like, oh, yeah, we re busy.
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We ll take some, you know, it wasn t that.
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And spending that time apart was just a massive shock and surprise because we were at like our best before we ended up in this position.
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And I felt like that distance made us have to work so much harder because six months is a long time.
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And this is what I mean by the regular check-ins.
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It s what I mean by the constant communication.
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It s what we mean by these agreements.
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Like that was not, that was a surprise to any of our agreements that we would never have agreed to spend six months apart from each other.
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And sometimes things happen that you can t, you know, get around.
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And I think that that s when I said, like, when we come back, we need to make a, it was more me saying it, where I was like, we need to really make an effort to reconnect because you can t just assume that things are the same.
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That takes work.
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Yeah, man, I love having these conversations.
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I know where I know this was about love and money.
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And we re gonna be doing another episode on the different rules that that women should be living by based on an old book, but it s not an old book, not mine.
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And we re gonna we re gonna check and see if we think these rules live up to what women should be doing in modern dating and relationships.
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So I m excited about that.
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But uh,
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I love it.
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I get nervous having these conversations.
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What are people going to think?
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But uh, that s what I m thinking.
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Now everyone s going to be like, Jay would never, he would make me sign a prenup.
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I m not, do you know what?
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I m, I m like one of the most romantic,
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love in love people that exist.
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I ve just become more realistic as I ve coached people, as I ve worked with people, as I ve seen challenges, like you just you start to see things.
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That s the interesting thing too, you know, I ve heard, I mean, yeah, you start to see things and when you see a lot of people go through pain
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and like years of pain after when there s a divorce and there s years of pain and there s kids involved and there s money involved and then then there s just sadness and hatred and it s like you want to see people beaten down yeah and you re like how can we have conversation awkward conversations beforehand to set ourselves up for more harmony and peace even if it doesn t work out
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How can we make it a conscious uncoupling the best possible way to do that?
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Totally.
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And I think you gotta have- Maybe that s another Awkward Therapy episode.
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We re doing a conscious uncoupling.
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Conscious uncoupling.
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Yeah, we ll take a look at that.
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Yeah, take a look at the book.
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I think there s- It s the book, yeah.
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There s a book.
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I think there s conscious coupling, which people don t really talk about, and conscious uncoupling.
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I think we should do both.
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Talking about how to enter a relationship consciously and how to plan to exit a relationship consciously, which is the most unromantic thing
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When you re 21, 24, and you re broke, and you re just like, I want to be with you forever, and I love you.
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That s not the sexy, romantic thing to talk about.
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But I think there s got to be a way to do it which is romantic, and which is feeling elevated.
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And so that ll be a future conversation.
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I m excited, man.
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I hope today s episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness.
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And now it s time to go out there and do something great.